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	<title>Comments on: The Courage To Fight Lieberman</title>
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		<title>By: MS</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328944</link>
		<dc:creator>MS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;So any word on the current polls — and reason that so many in Connecticut are still willing to go with good ol’ Joe?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So any word on the current polls — and reason that so many in Connecticut are still willing to go with good ol’ Joe?</p>
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		<title>By: bob h</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328722</link>
		<dc:creator>bob h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 12:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Iraq isn’t just a “single issue”.  It is the biggest foreign policy blunder in the nation’s history, one whose full damage to the nation probably lies ahead.  Why should one of the key, unapologetic enablers of this disaster have a seat at the national security table?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iraq isn’t just a “single issue”.  It is the biggest foreign policy blunder in the nation’s history, one whose full damage to the nation probably lies ahead.  Why should one of the key, unapologetic enablers of this disaster have a seat at the national security table?</p>
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		<title>By: Prof</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328275</link>
		<dc:creator>Prof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328275</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-328244&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Kirby @ 86 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash06.html?project=elections06-ft&amp;h=495&amp;w=778&amp;hasAd=1&quot;&gt;Here &lt;/a&gt;is the trending we’re following.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, 8 days until Joe’s campaign donations for the last quarter become public. THAT will be fun.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yes, I included that in my analysis.  The one you are watching is one of about 4.  The WSJ uses Zogby Interactive, which uses computer-based Internet polling.  It shows Ned improving by 2 percent between Sept. 5 and Sept. 25, and just 3 points behind Lieberman.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I suggest, however, that you not confine yourself by looking only at Zogby.  He got the 2004 election wrong, and some have criticized the reliability of the automated (interactive) polling method.  Zogby explains the method &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1064&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  Anybody can register to be part of that poll &lt;a href=&quot;http://interactive.zogby.com/pollregistration/registration/&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The criticisms of Zogby Interactive, as I understand it, is that its self-registration process does not screen for likely voters, etc., etc.  Probably the only thing that it &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; be used for at this point time is trend.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But other polls can also be consulted for trend, at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pollster.com.&quot;&gt;www.pollster.com.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-328244"><em>Kirby @ 86 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash06.html?project=elections06-ft&amp;h=495&amp;w=778&amp;hasAd=1">Here </a>is the trending we’re following.</p>
<p>Also, 8 days until Joe’s campaign donations for the last quarter become public. THAT will be fun.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, I included that in my analysis.  The one you are watching is one of about 4.  The WSJ uses Zogby Interactive, which uses computer-based Internet polling.  It shows Ned improving by 2 percent between Sept. 5 and Sept. 25, and just 3 points behind Lieberman.</p>
<p>I suggest, however, that you not confine yourself by looking only at Zogby.  He got the 2004 election wrong, and some have criticized the reliability of the automated (interactive) polling method.  Zogby explains the method <a href="http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1064">here</a>.  Anybody can register to be part of that poll <a href="http://interactive.zogby.com/pollregistration/registration/">here</a>.  </p>
<p>The criticisms of Zogby Interactive, as I understand it, is that its self-registration process does not screen for likely voters, etc., etc.  Probably the only thing that it <i>can</i> be used for at this point time is trend.</p>
<p>But other polls can also be consulted for trend, at <a href="http://www.pollster.com."></a><a href="http://www.pollster.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.pollster.com</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Cujo359</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328264</link>
		<dc:creator>Cujo359</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328264</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-328244&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Kirby @&lt;br /&gt;
                86              &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash06.html?project=elections06-ft&amp;h=495&amp;w=778&amp;hasAd=1&quot;&gt;Here &lt;/a&gt;is the trending we’re following.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, 8 days until Joe’s campaign donations for the last quarter become public. THAT will be fun.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sort of makes my point about the trends vs. absolute numbers thing. That WSJ/Zogby poll has Lieberman up by 1.8 percent, and a &lt;a href=&quot;http://rasmussenreports.com/2006/State Polls/October 2006/ConnecticutSenate.htm&quot;&gt;Rasmussen poll&lt;/a&gt; taken a week later has Lieberman up by 10 percent. Which is right? I have no idea.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-328244"><em>Kirby @<br />
                86              </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash06.html?project=elections06-ft&amp;h=495&amp;w=778&amp;hasAd=1">Here </a>is the trending we’re following.</p>
<p>Also, 8 days until Joe’s campaign donations for the last quarter become public. THAT will be fun.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Sort of makes my point about the trends vs. absolute numbers thing. That WSJ/Zogby poll has Lieberman up by 1.8 percent, and a <a href="http://rasmussenreports.com/2006/State Polls/October 2006/ConnecticutSenate.htm">Rasmussen poll</a> taken a week later has Lieberman up by 10 percent. Which is right? I have no idea.</p>
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		<title>By: jayt</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328262</link>
		<dc:creator>jayt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;70 Siun says: &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;October 7th, 2006 at 2:35 pm * &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(anyone else watching the Talledega truck race - wooo! it’s a good one!)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That was a good one! (you know that we Indiana guys can’t resist racing or basketball)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Where’d Todd Bodine end up?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>70 Siun says: </i></p>
<p>October 7th, 2006 at 2:35 pm * </p>
<p>(anyone else watching the Talledega truck race &#8211; wooo! it’s a good one!)</p>
<p>That was a good one! (you know that we Indiana guys can’t resist racing or basketball)</p>
<p>Where’d Todd Bodine end up?</p>
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		<title>By: Cujo359</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328255</link>
		<dc:creator>Cujo359</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328255</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Mary @ 3:02 pm (#90) - Worst thing about the no-fly list, besides the fact that you can’t get off of it if you’ve been put on by mistake, is that the secrecy about what “rules” are used to create it makes it difficult or impossible to discuss the validity of those rules. I don’t for one second trust that this is being done, especially in the current environment.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I also agree that asking Joe L. about the skinheads in the army would be a Kodak moment, to use another obsolete expression.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary @ 3:02 pm (#90) &#8211; Worst thing about the no-fly list, besides the fact that you can’t get off of it if you’ve been put on by mistake, is that the secrecy about what “rules” are used to create it makes it difficult or impossible to discuss the validity of those rules. I don’t for one second trust that this is being done, especially in the current environment.</p>
<p>I also agree that asking Joe L. about the skinheads in the army would be a Kodak moment, to use another obsolete expression.</p>
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		<title>By: Cujo359</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328252</link>
		<dc:creator>Cujo359</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328252</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jane strikes again with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/joe-liarman-strikes-again/&quot;&gt;a new thread&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jane strikes again with <a href="http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/joe-liarman-strikes-again/">a new thread</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328250</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328250</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-328244&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Kirby @ 86&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash06.html?project=elections06-ft&amp;h=495&amp;w=778&amp;hasAd=1&quot;&gt;Here &lt;/a&gt;is the trending we’re following.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, 8 days until Joe’s campaign donations for the last quarter become public. THAT will be fun.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;ned said today he thought the republicans were pouring money into joe’s campaign….  will be interesting to see the actual data…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-328244"><em>Kirby @ 86</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash06.html?project=elections06-ft&amp;h=495&amp;w=778&amp;hasAd=1">Here </a>is the trending we’re following.</p>
<p>Also, 8 days until Joe’s campaign donations for the last quarter become public. THAT will be fun.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ned said today he thought the republicans were pouring money into joe’s campaign….  will be interesting to see the actual data…</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328249</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328249</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Of course, the No Fly List, in addition to flagging every Bob, Gary and John with the highly unusual names of Johnson, Smith and Williams, also leaves off the names of real bad guys.  Why come (as we used to say way back when)?   &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Well, cuz they are secret of course.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So secret we can’t tell anyone.  uh huh. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;All this secrecy just makes things so much better. Safer.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Just like we are all safer when Leiberman’s Congressional view of making things safer via “bombing, shooting, or killing someone, anyone, cuz it makes us look tough” is adopted by soldiers on the ground in Iraq.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Medic_describes_cold_blooded_random_10072006.html&quot;&gt;Medic Describes Cold Blooded Random Killing Of Handicapped Father of 11&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Does Joe have a stated, on the record opinion about how he feels now that he’s managed to make the US Military a destination point for skinheads and neo-Nazis?  Since they are the prime resource of Americans willing to follow through on the Congressional/Executive Branch concept of the American Military as a torture machine for innocent civlians?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Safer?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, the No Fly List, in addition to flagging every Bob, Gary and John with the highly unusual names of Johnson, Smith and Williams, also leaves off the names of real bad guys.  Why come (as we used to say way back when)?   </p>
<p>Well, cuz they are secret of course.  </p>
<p>So secret we can’t tell anyone.  uh huh. </p>
<p>All this secrecy just makes things so much better. Safer.  </p>
<p>Just like we are all safer when Leiberman’s Congressional view of making things safer via “bombing, shooting, or killing someone, anyone, cuz it makes us look tough” is adopted by soldiers on the ground in Iraq.</p>
<p><a href="http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Medic_describes_cold_blooded_random_10072006.html">Medic Describes Cold Blooded Random Killing Of Handicapped Father of 11</a> </p>
<p>Does Joe have a stated, on the record opinion about how he feels now that he’s managed to make the US Military a destination point for skinheads and neo-Nazis?  Since they are the prime resource of Americans willing to follow through on the Congressional/Executive Branch concept of the American Military as a torture machine for innocent civlians?  </p>
<p>Safer?</p>
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		<title>By: Cujo359</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328247</link>
		<dc:creator>Cujo359</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/10/07/the-courage-to-fight-lieberman/#comment-328247</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-328215&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Prof @  60              &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-328186&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;kirby @ 34 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Remember, this is a marathon and we are at about mile 10. Keep your eye on the poll trend lines == that’s key and they are in Ned’s favor.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I first wrote in response:  “I’m sorry, but that’s not what I see on the “trend lines” that are shown graphically on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pollster.com/polls/?state=CT&amp;race=senate_race&quot;&gt;Pollster.com’s site for the Lamont-Lieberman race.&lt;/a&gt;  What I see is no movement for a month, at least when all the polls are averages.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But then I looked more closely,  and I do see the trends that &lt;i&gt;kirby&lt;/i&gt; mentions.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A nice thing about Pollster.com’s website is that you can click on any polls to remove them from the chart.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you focus only on Rasmussen, for example (by clicking all the other ones, making them turn grey in the list, and removing them from the chart), you &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; see a good trend from mid-Sept. to now.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now hit the “reset” button and start over.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you focus on Zogby Interactive, you do see &lt;i&gt;some &lt;/i&gt;trend.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you focus on Quinnipiac, removing all the others, you see a &lt;b&gt;trend toward Ned VERY strongly&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you look at American Research, you see basically &lt;i&gt;no trend&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You really do have to click things away to do this exercise, but it is worth it.  Otherwise, all the polls get the same color dots and are mixed together.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Go try it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;For my money, this is the best way to look at polls. Each major poll has its own methods for gathering data. Comparing a Quinnipac poll to a Zogby poll, or whatever, just confuses the issue. The trends in like polls are important. How important any absolute numbers are (IOW, is Joe up by five percent or ten?, that sort of thing), I’m not sure, and this seems to be a very debatable point among the experts.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-328215"><em>Prof @  60              </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-328186"><em>kirby @ 34 </em></a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>Remember, this is a marathon and we are at about mile 10. Keep your eye on the poll trend lines == that’s key and they are in Ned’s favor.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I first wrote in response:  “I’m sorry, but that’s not what I see on the “trend lines” that are shown graphically on <a href="http://www.pollster.com/polls/?state=CT&amp;race=senate_race">Pollster.com’s site for the Lamont-Lieberman race.</a>  What I see is no movement for a month, at least when all the polls are averages.”</p>
<p>But then I looked more closely,  and I do see the trends that <i>kirby</i> mentions.</p>
<p>A nice thing about Pollster.com’s website is that you can click on any polls to remove them from the chart.</p>
<p>If you focus only on Rasmussen, for example (by clicking all the other ones, making them turn grey in the list, and removing them from the chart), you <i>do</i> see a good trend from mid-Sept. to now.</p>
<p>Now hit the “reset” button and start over.</p>
<p>If you focus on Zogby Interactive, you do see <i>some </i>trend.  </p>
<p>If you focus on Quinnipiac, removing all the others, you see a <b>trend toward Ned VERY strongly</b>.</p>
<p>If you look at American Research, you see basically <i>no trend</i>.</p>
<p>You really do have to click things away to do this exercise, but it is worth it.  Otherwise, all the polls get the same color dots and are mixed together.</p>
<p>Go try it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>For my money, this is the best way to look at polls. Each major poll has its own methods for gathering data. Comparing a Quinnipac poll to a Zogby poll, or whatever, just confuses the issue. The trends in like polls are important. How important any absolute numbers are (IOW, is Joe up by five percent or ten?, that sort of thing), I’m not sure, and this seems to be a very debatable point among the experts.</p>
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