This is what Republican "values" look like: torture and sexual perversion.
Digby has a great post up (how often have I typed those words?) about the necessary maturation of the netroots into a ideological movement, overcoming its sometime conceit that we have no political ideology beyond winning and throwing Republicans out.
The fight this past week over torture, in contrast with the GOP's Predator Coverup, shows two different values systems at war with each other for the soul and the future of the country. The Grand Old Pervert party stands for shameless corruption, profiteering and the domestic police state, among other things. Not only can you not trust Republicans with your government (Katrina), your military (Iraq) or your money (Abramoff, Iraq, the deficit, the economy, etc.), you apparently can't trust Republicans with your kids (Predator Coverup).
On the other hand, our Blue America candidates all stand for progressive values, and many, like John Laesch (raised by missionaries) and Angie Paccione, speak very directly about faith and values as connected to politics.
A while back, I drafted some material for our Roots Project community I'd like to make public for community review. While this is not the final word, I think some fairly close approximation of what follows represents what we de facto think of as progressive values in the netroots, and among our Blue America candidates. I wrote all this before Republicans boldly declared themselves the party of torture, but I think what follows below still holds up.
The important thing is not to quibble endlessly over framing, but for our purposes tonight, to recognize and acknowledge that we are indeed values voters, and by whatever standard, protecting vulnerable teens from sexual harrassment and predation, as well as opposition to torture, are all fundamental to us as believers in the common good and accountability. And speaking of accountability, the overwhelming question for the whole right wing, from Bush and Cheney (see Bob Woodward and Scooter Libby) to Hastert and Boehner (Abramoff, Delay, Foley), is the classic, "What did they know and when did they know it?"
Anyway, here's what we posted at the Roots Project beta (I won't link to it because it's not yet ready for prime time. We got community feedback on the beta and have decided to try to do this infrastructure development right, and not just fast. I think the extra time has been and will be well invested):
There have been many discussions over the last few years designed to articulate our core values as progressives. We don't pretend here to have the last word in that conversation. What you'll find here is more like a summary of many of those conversations. What follows here has been informed not only by countless hours of reading articles and arguments across the Internet, but also by this excellent research and analysis.
People in this community can certainly disagree with parts of what I'm about to write here, but for the most part, I expect people here will find themselves more in aggreement than in dissent from what follows below.
Progressive Values:
Fairness: We don't believe human society is inherently fair, but we do believe it is the role of government to create and enforce the law and to pursue justice, irrespective of persons or concentrated corporate power. We further believe in protecting the rights of those in the minority from the tyranny of the majority. As progressives, we proudly lay claim to the civil rights history of this country, noting that all advances for women, African Americans and others came through the efforts of our philosophical forbears. We continue the struggle to create a more just and fair society in the 21st Century. In international affairs, we encourage the spread of human liberty first and foremost through the promotion of treaties, alliances and the development of international standards that reflect a profound respect for the rights of free people to determine their own fates.
Accountability: We believe as members of a national (and international) community that the actions of one affect the whole community. None of us is an island. Therefore, we are accountable to each other. That accountability implies responsibility, but not only in one direction. As individuals, we are accountable to the community to behave and act as good citizens. As members of a community, we are accountable to individuals to create the basic public conditions that protect the rights of individuals while also providing them the basic tools they can use to succeed and grow in society. It is not the community's responsibility to guarantee anyone a livelihood or a life of means, but it is incumbent on the community to provide basic tools like strong public education, a clean environment and other basic, public goods that together promote stability and security.
Opportunity: We believe that society is strongest which best approximates a meritocracy. Though human societies by their nature tend to aggregate power in the hands of social networks accustomed to exercising power either by habit or birthright, the most stable, successful and just human societies actively work to create the conditions whereby human talent can arise from any segment of society in any walk of life. As Americans, we have always succeeded through innovation, perfecting the art of making the impossible somehow possible, and we do it through unleashing the talents of common people. Strong public education and access to affordable health care are basic conditions that allow people to learn and grow, so as progressives, we strongly support those national priorities. What's more, because we believe in the power of human ingenuity to improve communal life, we constantly look for ways to encourage the talent and initiative of the "little guy," including individuals and small to medium sized businesses who cannot afford to hire lobbyists to write protective, favorable laws that ultimately protect the narrow, anticompetitive interests of modern global corporate conglomerates.
Investment: Even as we champion the importance to the community of a vibrant, innovative private sector, we recognize that some irreplaceable communal good comes from pooling the resources of all members of society to create the basic conditions for people and the private sector to flourish. It is the role of government to discover and meet these needs judiciously yet expeditiously. Roads must be built and maintained. A free, open, non-discriminating Internet provides the conditions through which people can communicate, start new businesses, reach new customers, organize, innovate, learn and grow. Public investments in our people (for example, through education) and in our communal infrastructure protect our collective security and stability. What's more, it is the role of government to define our security not only in terms of threats presented by international enemies or terrorists, but also in terms of the health and viability of our planet. Progressives stand in agreement that the scientific case for a man-made, global climate crisis is overwhelming, requiring immediate national and international political leadership to stave of the direst of outcomes through public investment, incentives for private sector investment and policies which taken together would promote the rapid deployment of existing technologies to radically reduce man-made carbon emissions. As progressives, we believe in the importance of making communal investments to protect not only ourselves in the present, but also our children and descendents in the future.
What do you think? Are you a values voter? Are these ideas generally representative of progressive values? Again, there is much that can be added to this framework to illustrate the core values mentioned, and others would no doubt emphasize other examples. I have another long page attempting to apply these values to a range of issues, but that's too much to quote here tonight. But does this stuff feel wrong, or close to being right, to you?
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Give me the Jug! Go Blue!
Balrog, feel free to give 10 to Tester and 10 to Webb.
Of course I’m a values voter. I think we’re on this earth to make things better for each other. That means doing our own jobs, raising, teaching, and protecting our kids, and helping others whenever possible. And my values are definitely in line with the progessive values listed above.
I just wish the rest of my Fox-watching family could figure this out.
Twisted Martini @
2
Sorry, bets lost on the Gilded Rodents are paid directly to Tim Walz.
And money well spent.
Wait’ll next year.
Fair enough. Go Blue America!
I am represented by the heinous Dan Burton. With no vaible challenger. So elect Walz and get Danny boy to retire.
Twisted Martini @ 5
You suppose the Pedophile-Party will scream about gambling money going to Dems?
Howie Klein!
BTW Pach, I thought you did a good job of defining a progressive voter. Now we just gotta find replacement for Pedro.
Balrog @ 7
I think they should hire Bill Bennett as a special investigator to review this matter.
Twisted Martini @ 9
Been working on my knuckle ball.
The good news is it breaks straight down.
The bad news is I can only throw it 37 feet.
I think we’re better off rallying behind a handful of concrete specifics and keeping the rhetoric at a minimum. (And if and when the opportunity arises from time to time, I’d go with Group of Perverts rather than Grand Old Perverts.)
I do want to salute you Pach, I am very encouraged by what I’m reading from you, Digby and others.
Pach, given recent events, maybe there could be some more emphasis on human rights and rule of law/respect for the Constitution (admittedly, that second part might be a bit of a reach in terms of values).
Also, Not Blowing Up Other Countries For No Good Reason.
I have no doubt that we are value voters when we argue that the founding fathers struggled to define the Constitution with the best of long lasting intentions. We of this community seem committed to the defense, not perversion of them. But who is to say which values have standing in the current environment. According to this link if the language of the new law is correct, maybe we don’t. In an Orwellian way it would appear that anyone questioning the values by which our government conducts business could be considered a terrorist:
Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism http://www.prisonplanet.com/ar…..turebill.h tm
I actually think that Conservatives are correct when they say they are the party of values and we are not.
That’s not because we lack morals, but because Progressives are a movement of principles, which is distinct from values. In fact, one of the reasons Progressives have such a hard time articulating values is because we think in terms of principles.
One way to think about the difference between these two is to see values as moral positions (e.g., fairness is good), whereas principles are moral foundations or basic truths on which our system runs (e.g., all men are created equal).
What this means in political real-time is that Conservatives are a party that strives to enforce moral positions–strives to make their positions everyone’s positions. They are, in fact, an ideological movement that attempts to turn government into a mechanism that enforces their moral positoins.
Progressives, by contrast, are a movement that strives to defend moral principles–strives to keep the foundations of the system in tact. We then become an ideological movement that attempts to turn government into the mechanism that helps people realize the the promise of those principles, built on that foundation.
I like this distinction for one reason: The Constitution is a set of principles, not a set of values.
That is why the Conservative movement, as it becomes more and more powerful, becomes increasingly hindered by The Constitution–until it eventually seeks to replace it with a list of values.
The Progressive movement experiences the exact opposite. The more powerful it becomes, the the better the fit with the Constitution–the more powerful Progressivism, the more powerful The Constitution itself becomes.
I suspect this values conversation will go on for some time–I hope so. It’s very interesting and productive. But thinking in terms of principles may be what we are about after all–just like Jefferson.
I think this is a great idea – I really agree with this approach. I’m so sick of the meme that Dems don’t stand for anything.
I’d like to recommend Gary Hart’s new book – The Courage of Our Convictions – A Manifesto for Democrats. Here’s a brief description:
The Courage of Our Convictions is Hart’s call to action—a clear-eyed and plainspoken manifesto that urges a return to the principles bequeathed to the party by its great twentieth-century presidents:
Franklin D. Roosevelt’s commitment to a single national community, where no American would be left behind;
Harry S. Truman’s internationalism, which preserved democracy after World War II and led eventually to the defeat of communism;
John F. Kennedy’s ideal of civic duty and service to the nation;
and Lyndon B. Johnson’s insistence on equality for all our citizens.
It’s available on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Courage-…..0805081011
He was interviewed on some weekend show on Air America about this book a month or two ago and was brilliant, as usual.
I like the tone of what I read. I like the balance between the individual’s responsiblities and the state’s responsibilities, and how the two are connected, to create a strong and just society.
No one consulted me in the construction of a progressive manifesto. If this gets out, you will all be exposed as the great pretenders that you are.
Just kidding Pach. Pretty good stuff, seems sorta vanilla, as though you are trying to cast a wide net. I don’t mean to piss you off, but you asked for opinions.
When people call me a progressive, I tell them I’m a liberal, when they call me a liberal, I tell them I’m a far left liberal.
None of these things are true, of course, as I am, above all, a fiscal conservative. Pay the bills, do a shit load of good, then we’ll talk tax cuts.
Let me know if I can throw in on this. Seems like a herculean task for one mere worshipper of ink gods, but it looks like a good idea.
Pach,
Good stuff. I read it about 5 times. This though is troubling…
“In international affairs, we encourage the spread of human liberty first and foremost.”
First and foremost? Spread of? Sounds neo con. Maybe I’m tired.
Cozumel @ 20
Well, he did say “encourage”, not “forcibly institute a mockery of at gunpoint”…
OFG: I hereby banish you from the empire.
Seriously, this is kind of broad brush, philosophical stuff, but we should have some common language through which to talk about what we stand for, on a level above mere issues. Jeff Feldman makes interesting points. As I say, this is a community process, and the whole point of opening this up is to continue the process of peer review.
When we deal with the party pragmatists who tell us not to wig out about torture, though, I like to be able to connect why we should not compromise on torture to something other than a short term political calculation. That’s just one example, obviously.
That Jeffrey Feldman guy sounds pretty bright too.
dab in Conn. I’ve always said anyone running for Pres should walk through the FDR memorial at night and read his quotations to understand what I think we are and should always be about.
I agree with the values listed but one I’d personally add is truthfulness, even when the truth is unpleasant.
Eli @ 21
I can live with that ; )
Yeah, I chose the word “encourage” purposely.
Jeffrey Feldman @ 16,
“Progressives, by contrast, are a movement that strives to defend moral principles–strives to keep the foundations of the system in tact. We then become an ideological movement that attempts to turn government into the mechanism that helps people realize the the promise of those principles, built on that foundation.
I like this distinction for one reason: The Constitution is a set of principles, not a set of values.”
I like the way you think.
Great post Pac…Thanks
..but not all Blue America candidates stand for progressive values.
Let us not forget that Sherrod Brown voted yes, in favor of the Torture Bill.
Larry
a start, but needs work…
Larry @ 29
He is no longer a Blue America candidate.
Sounds rational and decent to me. The GOP has managed to prove itself the foil of the rational and decent, and we’d better make that damn clear.
We should put a caption under all Abu Gharaib pictures: “This does not serve American interests. Democrats get that, and we suspect you do, too.”
Coming from the philosophy that economics is the basis of all change, I feel the overarching political ideology that defines Republicans is their belief of American greatness comes from the wealth of our corporations and tycoons.
I belong to the camp that believes the greatness in America comes from the success of the middle class.
These two philosophies are in opposition and cannot reach compromise. Sadly, it’s always about the money.
Pachacutec @ 31
Well, Brown convinced me he was a progressive. Now, after he voted for torture, I don’t know what the hell to think. Maybe he will make a good senator, and I presume he would vote for a Democratic majority leader. So I hope he wins. But I think it was appropriate to remove him from the list of Blue America candidates.
I still have a problem with “spread of” now that I think about it. To me, that’s agression in any way, shape, or form.
G’Night.
Sherrod Brown is still listed on the ActBlue page, altho the link doesn’t go anywhere. Perhaps a new page w/link needs to be established- why SB is no longer included.
http://www.actblue.com/page/blueamerica#743
Traditionally Dems have not been values voters because they have been primarily “bread and butter issues” voters. The reason is economics. Only the reasonably well off can spend much time thinking about and articulating “values” which are after all, abstractions.
In the main Democrats have been working people. During the Depression it was a matter of keeping the dinner pail filled, to use an earthy metaphor. The Republicans being of the entrepreneural class use values as the means for energizing their political base because the bread and butter issues have already been pre-empted by the Democrats.
If Democrats now want to become the party of “values” they have to learn how to do that without abandoning their traditional appeal as the party that cares about the people.
To me that means a collaboration is necessary between the traditional bread-and-butter style politics and a new politics of ideas that can do at least the following things:
(1) Define and articulate the idea of political liberty as the greatest value we need to preserve.
(2) restore the incalculable damage to our country by the Bush administration,
(3) articulate a new set of ideas to deal with terrorism besides conducting perpetual war,
(4) create an agenda for saving the planet, including a long term renewable energy policy
(5) find ways to coexist with the rising powers in the East
(6) provide safeguards against the runaway fascism of the Republican party from ever happening again
(7) If necessary to accomplish 1-5, foment revolution in the time-honored manner of the Founding Fathers.
There’s more, but how’s that for a start?
Cozumel @ 35
I hear you, but I respectfully disagree. Persuasion does not mean aggression. We try to be persuasive around here all the time. But we don’t undertake violence. I don’t think we have a problem trying to persuade other societies to adopt higher standards of human rights, fair trade with protections for workers, etc. None of those things require aggression.
OFG,
What you said about wanting to be called a liberal–same here.
Socially liberal and fiscally conservative, to a point.
I want so much to get away from the “I got mine” culture we seem to have now. That’s when people stop voting for school levies, etc. Reinvest in the country!
Cozumel @ 35
The best way to “spead” democracy is to be democratic. Make this the best country in the world, where all schools are palaces, healthcare is universal, and everyone (except dickheads) are respected. Lady Liberty’s torch blew out recently, and we are no longer the shining city on the hill.
We need to get that back.
I’m sorry to quibble with you, Mr Feldman, because I admire and support your work, but I do think “values,” in an atruistic sense, are indeed appropriate for progressives.
Progressives are adults. They have grown into their identities, developed empathy, and learned to tolerate diverse viewpoints. They have freely chosen to embrace, express, and embody beliefs and behaviors that bring more benefit (and less harm) to the largest number of their fellow human beings.
“Principles,” on the other hand, like “guidelines,” “rules,” “regulations,” “policies,” “precepts,” and so forth, are generally concerned with enforcing (or at least codifying) of one person’s (or group’s) set of ideas. “Principles” are what people use to get along before they develop (individually or as a society) a mature value system.
Ask a child to “do the right thing” and see what it gets you. Altruistic values do not operate there. Tell a child to “follow these principles” and you will likely get better results.
ActBlue lists the names of everyone who has gotten money through the page, including many, like wonderful progressives Dave Lutrin or Ciro Rodriguez, who are no longer candidates. But there’s no way to give them money through our page anymore.
Similarly, our page lists money we did raise for Brown, but after his vote this week, we took him off the active recipient list.
My 37: “repair the incaluclable damage…
(Edit does not work for me)
Pachacutec, what is the purpose of this piece? Who is your intended audience?
I looked at it more for language than content. I think it needs a plain language treatment.
Pach- I still think it would be useful to explain on that page why he is no longer there- informative for those who might be wondering. Spread the word.
Oilfieldguy @ 40
My problem with the notion of spreading democracy is that the concept is so easily perverted. Bush claims that what he is doing (e.g. killing innocent civilians in Iraq, enabling the Israeli destruction of Lebanon, making plans for an unprovoked attack on Iran) all comes under the heading of “spreading democracy.” We have to find a way to clearly oppose that type of linguistic distortion.
Well, my audience is anyone who reads this blog and considers himself or herself a progressive. I’m throwing a draft out there, and drawing a contrast between what we stand for and what Republicans actually stand for, nevermind their
cover storiesrhetoric.Thank you, Pach. Too tired after this week to read this critically, but the words are generally soothing and inspiring. By the way, as someone pointed out earlier, the preferred title is Greedy Old Perverts.
it would be nice if we actually “exemplified” democracy.
Valley Girl @ 45
Does *Brown* know? Or care?
Eli @ 50
Good point. Answer?
Pachacutec @ 47
Right – but once you have a final draft up at the ROOTS website, what do you want people to do as as result of reading this piece?
Valley Girl @ 49
If you value democracy, and live in accordance with your values, your values will, um, spread.
Which is to say, I do my damndest to exemplify democratic values, and gently try to persuade others to do the same.
Valley Girl @ 49
I agree, Valley Girl. But I think that “we” (progressives) do exemplify democracy. It is the thugs who have hijacked our country who do not.
Jeff Feldman at 16, thank you for a thoughtful post.
Pach, I think you should add to the list, “You can’t trust Republicans with your Constitution (Torture, habeas corpus.)”
What you are doing here is important work, and mustn’t be rushed. I appreciate your posting it for comments. In your section labeled “Accountability,” I wonder if it shouldn’t read “Community” with accountability referred to in the body of the section as necessary for the survival of a healthy community.
Valley Girl @ 49
Here, here. And can we have an honest election already? I’m 47 and I can remember elections when I was a kid, so I know we’ve been having them for at least 40 years now. Can’t we get that part straight? We can’t point at some fledgeling democracy and scold them for running crooked elections until we fix ours.
Hell yeah, I’m a values voter, but I think in terms of the universal values and ethics that are shared among all humans, not just Americans. America’s founding fathers, after all, based their efforts in building the Constitution and its subsequent amendments upon what they believed were univerally-held and inalienable rights; their values were founded upon these inseparable claims. As a progressive I believe in defending these same inalienable rights, although they are so often under attack.
I also believe that the Constitution was not designed to delineate rights, but to outline prohibitions and limits to the authority of government, as the rights of humans stretched far beyond the Constitution (see the 9th Amendment’s acknowledgement of unenumerated rights).
My personal framework agrees very nicely with the framework that Larry Calero outlined as “universal principles”:
Personal ethics
Concern for the well-being of others
Respect for the autonomy of others
Trustworthiness & honesty
Willing compliance with the law (with the exception of civil disobedience)
Basic justice; being fair
Refusing to take unfair advantage
Benevolence: doing good
Preventing harm
Professional/Business ethics
Impartiality; objectivity
Openness; full disclosure
Confidentiality
Due diligence / duty of care
Fidelity to professional responsibilities
Avoiding potential or apparent conflict of interest
Global ethics
Global justice (as reflected in international laws)
Society before self / social responsibility
Environmental stewardship
Interdependence & responsibility for the ‘whole’
Reverence for place
Whatever I embrace must align with these ethics.
(BTW, I enjoyed Jeffrey Feldman’s explainer; it is the heart of the difficulty progressives have with framing; conservatives in this country can make frames with a mere word or two because everything is rather simplistically about morals for them, and nothing as grey and challenging and though-provoking as principles. Perhaps that’s why they have less qualms about immoral and illegal behavior; they can simply change the definitions of black and white. Having to deal in grey areas would be too challenging.)
Let’s see how the values voters, blue and red, deal with the potential criminal responsibility of certain members of Congress from the State of Illinois.
Certain individuals in Illinois are required by state law to report child abuse when the learn of it, including “school personnel (including administrators and both certified and non‑certified school employees.” 325 Illinois Compiled Statutes 5, section 4.
Section 4 of this “Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act” does not have any limitation to only schools or school authorities within the boundaries of the State of Illinois (although I realize one can argue that it is so limited). The question is whether a person who, by virtue of election from Illinois, is in charge of a school in Washington, D.C., has such a duty to report.
Such persons
Mandatory reporting of abuse is required in case of any “abused child.”
Section 3 (definitions) defines “abused child” to include any child where “any person responsible for the child’s welfare”:
It appears to me that ex-Rep. Foley was a “person responsible for the child’s welfare” by virtue of the power of Members of Congress over the pages who work there and perhaps even that Rep. Shimkus, as Chair of the House Page Board, may be such a “person responsible.”
It appears further to me that ex-Rep. Foley has “commit[ted] [a] sex offense against such a child” and Rep. Shimkus may have “allowed to be committed [a] sex offense against such child” by not taking action against ex-Rep. Foley.
Now it is true that the Illinois Criminal Code’s Harassing and Obscene Communications Act only applies to illegal acts by a “person in this State” (720 Illinois Compiled Statutes 135, sec. 1)
But for purposes of mandatory reporting, note that it is required to report a sex offense “as such sex offenses are defined in the Criminal Code of 1961, as amended.” The definitions sections of the harrassing and obscene communications portion of the Criminal Code of 1961, as amended are not section 1, but subsequent sections.
It is at least arguable, therefore, that the mandatory reporting of sex abuse by “school officials” extends even to harrassing and obscene communications outside the State of Illinois and outside the jurisdiction of the Illinois Criminal Code, so long as they are the same kind of harrassing and obscene communications that are “defined” in those definitions sections.
Here is one:
And section 1 provides:
Did Rep. Shimkus have a legal duty to report, by virtue of his responsibility for a school — even though that school was outside Illinois?
Good question.
Perhaps it should at least be asked of Rep. Shimkus back home in the next 5 weeks.
Ah, well, that’s a different question.
At the Roots Project site, as part of an “About Us” section for potential newcomers, including those who are not already blog readers, we wanted to try to capture a bit of who we are and what we are about.
The blogs serve a great function in breaking and analyzing stories, even in making and testing arguments. Roots Project will be the place for people to come together after the arguments to work in whatever self-ceated groups they wish to bring about social, political or cultural change.
In that context, this material is part of a “who are we” set of writings. There’s also some material I drafted that goes form this broad notion of progressive values to enunciate some specific values that animate ultimately will govern the Roots Project online community.
Pachacutec said:
“I have another long page attempting to apply these values to a range of issues, but that’s too much to quote here tonight. But does this stuff feel wrong, or close to being right, to you?”
It does not feel wrong, it feels close to being right. But much of it is so abstract and general that I will need to see your next page–applying values to issues–to get a clearer understanding of what it is that we want to say we stand for.
Can we introduce a sterility drug into the water supply and if one wants the antidote they must provide a Democratic Voter Registration card?
Maybe that will cut down on some of the trouble Mother Earth has been experiencing lately.
Great stuff, Prof.
Oh, and another audience for this stuff, in the “About Us” section at Roots, will be the media who want to find out who we are and what we are about. They like to define us in the terms the wingers use: “Bush Derangement” and all that crap. I thought it might help if we offered some place where they could hear us speak for ourselves.
Prof #58 — I have wondered over the last 24 hours whether this was the underlying reason why none of these Republican morons made more than passing effort to do anything at all about the Foley problem:
Jurisdiction.
Where did the crime, if any, occur? What codes were applicable? did they all think, Hey, not my state, not in DC, not my problem?
And none of them made any effort to go beyond the printouts, which would have determined the jurisdiction/location of the crime, if any.
Lazy. Unprincipled. Slackers.
How strange. The “Quote This Comment” button just stopped working for me (I have been using it throughout the evening). Whcn I click on it, the comment in question does not appear in the dialogue box. Is anyone else having that problem?
neurophius @ 64
no
Pac… regarding my 29…The Blue America page is still showing Sherrod Brown as a candidate.
Larry
Twisted Martini @
9
Relax, we were 11-12 with him.
I could quibble with some of the language in Pachacutec’s manifesto, but the point that I find most important personally is the concept of “accountability.” I wrote a Daily Kos diary entry last night about the detail that I personally find most shocking in the Mark Foley scandal — namely, the way that Republicans in his district shrugged it off, even after his resignation in disgrace, with comments such as, “All I can say is it’s a shame he was indiscreet.”
To say that the problem was Foley being “indiscreet” is of a piece with the warmongers who say the problem with Abu Ghraib was that it got reported in the press, or with Bush when he says that the problem isn’t the violence in Iraq, it’s the images of violence. Over and over again, the argument is that reality and behavior don’t matter, only how the public perceives reality. The problem isn’t that Foley is a child molester; it’s that he’s “indiscreet” about it. The problem isn’t that prisoners were tortured and killed at Abu Ghraib; it’s that some soldiers were “indiscreet” enough to take photos. The problem isn’t that car bombs are killing people; it’s that images of the car bombs are undermining support for the war.
How does this relate to “accountability”? The underlying premise of accountability is that your words should correspond to your deeds: Say what you mean; mean what you say; one thing leads to another. The Republicans (and to a considerable degree, the Democrats as well) have been trying to separate image from reality, word from deed, and in so doing they eliminate the basis for accountability. That’s why Bush and Rumsfeld and Casey and Condoleezza Rice can leak “plans” to the press saying they’re about to draw down troop levels in Iraq, and then in the same breath complain that anyone who wants a timeline for troop withdrawals is taking away their “flexibility.” What they really mean is that they want to be able to talk about troop drawdowns — or democracy, or “no child left behind,” or a thousand other pleasant-sounding words and promises — without ever being held accountable for the fact that they never actually deliver the goods.
OK…rant mode off. Incidentally, one of the women who commented on my Daily Kos post coined a great phrase that we ought to start using to describe Foleygate: “I’ve got a Grand Old Party in my pants.”
Prof, you make a good point. Although the applicability of Illinois law to a congressman’s actions in Washington may not be clear enough to support a criminal conviction, it certainly does provide an appropriate ethical framework for analyzing and criticizing Shimkus’s conduct.
Does he have serious opposition in November?
Larry @ 66
Please see my comments and responses to this question above. Or, if you like, try to find a way to give him money on our page.
Thanks, Sheldon.
I added the accountability word to some of these others I had seen fleshed out by others because it seemed to me to capture so much of what our Roots community really, deeply cared about. And of all the others, it adds the most teeth to what we stand for, in my view.
Pach:
Your draft seems to speak primarily to governmental action. I wonder whether, in the area of accountability, we might include a reference to our desire to have accountable news media.
Sorry for belaboring the point on my 29
Larry @ 66
I now can see that you and others addressed my remark. thanks
neurophius @ 72
You’re right, I was writing mostly about values relevant to public life, including government. I was not thinking of or targeting the free (ahem!) press.
Hastert lied today in a press release asserting that neither he nor Shimkus nor the House Clerk ever saw the actual e-mails, because Rep. Alexander only referred to them and did not, because of concern of the parents, actually disclose them.
According to today’s St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which conducted an interview with Shimkus:
Hat tip to Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo, who reported on this a couple of hours ago.
Sheldon Rampton@68
I am in complete agreement with you.
Accountability and its corollary, responsibility, are characteristics of adult value systems.
Avoiding accountability and responsibility are a hallmark of immaturity, as any parent can tell you.
I do not know if the “progressive = grownup, conservative = not yet grownup” meme will gain us anything out in the big world, but I believe it can offer a useful conceptual model, allowing us to make predictions about people and social systems.
/ my .02
Funny thing about accountability, it is not needed by honest stewards of the publics trust. I don’t leave my keys in my car either.
neurophius @ 72
For me, media *is* one of the mechanisms of accountability. When either party screws up, the media should be reporting it – not ignoring it, not minimizing it, not spinning it.
The other mechanism is elections, which need to be clean and freely available to all, so that the American people can act on the information provided to them by a truly fair & balanced media.
Pachacutec @ 74
Maybe that belongs in the subsequent list of values applied to issues. But it does seem to me that our demand for fair and accountable media is pretty basic to what FDL seems to be about.
Sorry, hat tip should have gone to “TPM Reader DK” who is guest-blogging at TPM today.
klangfarben @ 76
They’re also a hallmark of dictatorship.
Accountability = Democracy.
Impunity = Dictatorship.
I prefer “accountability” to “responsibility” because, in my mind, the former denotes more of a community context, whereas the later is a bit more individualistic.
Since I believe we are the people who emphasize the common good, which is, in my view, the root of these values, the community context is paramount. It’s no accident, I think, that the wingers seized on the more individualistic word “responsibility,” or “personal responsibility,” more as a code word for racism, in actual fact.
I appreciate all the thought you have put into this proposal, Pach. I think it will be useful.
Sorry if you already have answered this, but is there an expected launch date for the Roots Project? We really need it!
Looking at our ‘progressives’ in action…
http://sherrodbrown.com/road/stories/667/
…you really see how far we have to go. His reasons are basically the Repubelickin talking points!
Pachacutec @ 82
Yes. Accountability can be imposed; responsibility must be accepted voluntarily.
I think this uses too much of the republican meme. I would much prefer something like “in terms of threats presented by those who would do us or our Constitution harm”. (The word terrorist is overused imho and part of the language “trap” that the American people have fallen into.) One could always fall back on the tried and true “all enemies foreign and/or domestic” My dream as a progressive is to actually have a department of peace/state that strives to outdo the DoD in every way, and I think that our language should be more positive while not at all naive.
Eugene Robinson had this to say about language in a column this month:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00883.html
I’m also uncomfortable with the words “spread of”, but I like human liberty. :)
I also very much like the use of the word principles rather than values Jeffrey Feldman @ 16. It is more in line with these words that still gives me goosebumps: “we hold these truths to be self evident…”
MSM are constantly voted on by plebiscite, the channel gets turned or the article is unread. Sex with children makes for better copy than torturing terrorists, or “Iraq is still fucked up, back to you Wolfe”.
Accountability occurs (in theory) when responsibility fails.
Ah, here we are Pach, parsing words, something you asked us to overlook at this time and just get a general feeling of the idea.
Be careful of the conceit that exist for all people who view from where they stand is the center and good and correct.
I guess I can use this for an update of where we are with Roots Project development.
The rolled out a beta, got community feedback and identified a number of things we wanted to substantially improve before going more public. Cheif among these were the front page interface and information arhitecture of the site, as well as the signup/registration process.
In looking into models to accomplish what we seek to build, we found that new utilities just coming into play in the Drupal community would be useful. So one of our lead deveopers – a frequent commenter here – attended a Drupal conference. At the same time, we set up a separate mirror of the beta site for the deveopment people to play with.
Having done that research, and with new goodies to play with and import, development continues apace.
I don’t have a firm launch date, but since this is a community building project, we will probably employ a rolling cycle of invitations to join, provide feedback, help us raise the barn, make new improvements, etc. So it won’t be exactly like a traditional corporate product launch. This is more like a community development initiative.
Now, the question then arises, will we be raeayd with our next phase before the election? Possibly. Will we be able to have an impact on this election? Probably not. Will the news and media space be so occupied with election stuff that we may wait until afterward to open up the doors again? Maybe.
I can foresee such a pre or post election next phase launch, but then subsequent bigger “launches” with more publicity, including interview with Matt Browner Hamlin in media, YouTube video “commercials,” etc, on into the new year, focusing people on getting together for the next generation of grass roots organizing in the next election cycle, but right away after this election.
That’s what seems to be the process right now.
Jeffrey Feldman @
16
I add to the end of that “on all of us.”
I’m a “values voter”, but with different values than the wingnuts. One principle I’d like to have includes “death with dignity” (with strong safeguards). Don’t others deserve the same compassion we would give a dog or cat? For the Republicans to get in the middle of anyone with a Terminal Illness is reprehensible! Enduring a horrible illness is fine with the GOP, as it allows them to manipulate the Christian Taliban. But shouldn’t we include the right to end personal suffering? Perhaps I did too much Hospice work a few years back, but it became important for me and always will be.
Watching the GOP (and Lieberman) challenge Oregon’s death with Dignity Act or Meddle in the life of T Schaivo perfectly personified this and clearly didn’t go down well with the public. I USED TO BE a 3rd Generation Republican, because back then–we didn’t meddle in other people’s lives. The Repugs of today, are not the Republican party I grew up in. Not being able to change it within, is why I left. I’d really like to see Progressives add the statement that the Government shall not interfere in the lives of citizens, unless those individual actions present a threat to others.
Finally, I would like us to include the objective to pay down the debt that the Republicans are leaving to the next generation(s). Our kids and Grandkids will curse the name of Bush and his minions, as they will have to pay off their debts. They will also want to know what we did about it.
“I can foresee such a pre or post election next phase launch, but then subsequent bigger “launches” with more publicity, including interview with Matt Browner Hamlin in media, YouTube video “commercials,” etc, on into the new year, focusing people on getting together for the next generation of grass roots organizing in the next election cycle, but right away after this election.”
Thus, the process of holding them accountable begins.
Pachacutec @ 90
Thanks for that. Very exciting stuff! After taking at least some of the government back next month, it will be nice to have the Roots Project around for following elections, when we can then move on to getting rid of as many DINOs as possible.
BTW, I just can’t stop laughing after watching Loserman’s latest ‘ad’. Fargin atrocious!
http://nedlamont.com/blog/1600…..er#comment
I’m gonna crash, gang. I’ll check the comments again in the morning. Thanks a bunch!
Trying to finish How Bush Rules in time for the tomorrows book salon. It’s a really good book I just want to carry it around and whack republicans over the head with it. *g*
Pach, You really do know how to put one over the plate. I have been amazed for quite sometime that we have no general progressive statement. This is a great idea.
One point I would like to address. Truth and free flow of information,
fuckStop secrets in our government. It’s not protecting us or our constitution we must address this imo. We watch cspan and congressional hearings are a joke. A Senator can’t get (or even demand) an answer to very basic questions much less a citizen.If you have ever wondered if evil is real, here you have it. Innocent 16 year olds, the top of their class, cream of the crop, who urgently want to serve our country, being sexually surrounded/forced/propositioned by their Republican bosses.
THIS IS TRUE EVIL. THE BIBLE KIND OF EVIL.
FIGHT BACK. FIGHT AGAINST REAL EVIL.
G’night all from a foreign city. Keep up the good fight. We WILL WIN, but it’s going to be very, very ugly in the meantime.
Eli @ 14
Eli, will you marry me?
I would ask Imm but apparently he is otherwise engaged. :)
http://americablog.blogspot.co…..ouble.html
from WaPo
~~~With his statement, Reynolds, who is locked in a difficult reelection campaign, signaled he was unwilling to take the fall alone amid partisan attacks that were becoming increasingly vituperative….
Republican insiders said Reynolds spoke out because he was angry that Hastert appeared willing to let him take the blame for the party leadership’s silence.
A House GOP leadership aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of losing his job, said that Reynolds realizes he has taken a shot at his leader but that it is understandable.
“This is what happens when one member tries to throw another member under a bus,” he aide said.~~
I don’t want anyone to marry me. I just want him to clean house, take out the trash, scrub the floors, do my income tax returns, and provide lite entertainment. And, deal with my family. and…
Brownandserve @
25
Ditto. It fits in with accountability.
And more: truth requires transparent government, government that doesn’t work in the shadows, behind closed doors, by executive order or parliamentary connivance; government that doesn’t fear the free flow of information but thrives on it; that gets its message out plainly and honestly, not through PR firms, scripted repetition, fake sponsors, and false labels; that respects the fourth estate and doesn’t badger it into one-sidedness; that wants the world to know what science learns about the common interest; that knows truth comes from debate and investigation, not by fiat.
On “spreading” democracy, everyone gets hung up on the gun-slinging. We all know why, but goddamit we used to do this by example. Now we do it by counterexample. There’s the rub. The solution, I think, is to go back to where we were. This progressive wants to see the world’s cleanest, fairest-run elections; campaigns that are publicly financed so candidates can speak their minds and voters can gauge them; voter participation that expands over time and whose contraction is a sure sign that tyranny is on the horizon; an educational system that creates real citizens, not just wage-earning consumers, and teaches them how to be on guard against the tricks of the ruling trade; a media that informs the product of this system daily so we become the the boldest, sharpest, most active and unafraid citizenry the world has ever seen, and that by its nature raises political debate to a new level of integrity and vision.
I want, in short, government of, by and for the people. Hey, it’s just an experiment, but I can think of worse labs (like the one we all feel we’re in).
Denny Hastert’s STILL trying the Sergeant Schultz Defense — but it keeps getting shot down, first by Boehner, then by Reynolds, and now by Shimkus.
GOP
Groping Our Pages
Under “accountability” perhaps add something about the means of achieving accountability: Transparency. Transparent mechanisms naturally lead to accountability, because they are open to inspection. It’s the hardest thing to maintain in human-governed systems. Notice how this administrations obscures their mechanisms, while increasing citizen transparency (wiretapping, personal records, total information awareness, etc.). Just the opposite of what should happen.
Funny, you’d think Congresscritters would leave town in planes, trains, or automobiles, but this weekend, there seem to be a bunch of BUSES about the Capitol! And GOP House Leaders getting thrown under them.
Is it possible that Republican Congressmen Foley, Reynolds, Shimkus, and Hastert, and a couple of their Chiefs of Staff constitute a “Child Exploitation Enterprise” under Rep. Foley’s Internet Safety Act, which his press office described in a press release that hasn’t yet disappeared from the Web as follows?
To answer this question, one would have to look at the actual statute — or perhaps just ask the news media to look into the question.
Valley Girl @ 100
I will cheerfully clean house, take out the trash, scrub the floors, do the income tax returns, and provide xxx entertainment [whew, nothing said about cooking! I’m off the hook] in exchange for intimacy with a partner who will work with me against evil.
My question being: if they knew about it and facilitated it, the House Republican Leadership may have helped it continue (if it did), thus meeting the standard for such a “Child Exploitation Enterprise.”
They read the e-mails. And they allowed Foley to continue undiscovered, “acting in concert.”
Thanks, Teddy. I needed that.
There’s less than 90 minutes until midnight on the west coast.
Pach, I really liked it, since the GOP no longer can claim any values it is past time that we started talking about them.
I have a couple of comments.
First, before you finalize anything, do your best to make it so it can’t be twisted and then spun. The RW is very good at doing that and I would really like it if you (and by extention all of us) have the message tight enough it can’t be turned around easily and used against us.
Second, as you’re writing it, try and come up with sound bites. We are dealing with people that live by sound bites (cut and run, stay the course). It seems to me that if we just have a couple of good sound bites it would just be good pr.
I deal with wingnuts alot. They’re not very intospective.
But frankly, I loved them. One other thing, when the candidate was here today he spoke about there being a moral component to economics. That really resonated with me.
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..tml?sub=AR
“I don’t think it will be just conservative voters that will shake their heads when they hear about this,” said Rep. Jim McCrery (R-La.).
MWAHAHAHA
egregious @ 103
bingo!
Prof @ 106
Prof: thanks! I knew the goopers were war criminals…now it appears the GOP house leaders conspired to conceal child sex crimes.
It’s not my grandmother’s GOP.
No one could have anticipated the breach of the Levi’s.
Prof @ 108
Absolutely. This isn’t partisan politics here. Who knows what this creep has done over the years, especially the last 10 months. He is a SEXUAL PREDATOR OF CHILDREN. There is no argument there.
Just need to prove Hasty and Bonier had the more explicit emails. They’re claiming the emails they saw weren’t the naughty ones, so who knew?!? (although their stories are changing so fast not sure what the claim is now) These fuckwads could’ve prevented any abuse that has happened in the last year. What’s the slogan around here? Oh yea…
ATTACK! ATTAACK!!!! ATTAAAAAAACK!!!!
These menaces to society deserve nothing less.
Michael Scott @ 113
Nice.
Michael Scott @ 116
First-rate snicker.
At the risk of getting reamed here. What Foley did was disgusting, but he wasn’t targeting children. 16 and 17 yr olds aren’t children and people that go after them aren’t pedophiles.
Because of the way the law was written it does protect minors, with minors being anyone under 18.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..foley.html
Glenn explains it very well.
Pachacutec, this is my stab at editing your copy.
Fairness: Human society is not inherently fair, but it can be fairer. It should be the role of government not simply to enforce laws but to seek justice for all and not just those individuals and corporations who already enjoy great wealth and power.
We further believe in protecting the rights of minorities against the whims of transitory majorities. In doing so, we protect the rights of others as we would have our own rights protected one day. As progressives, we proudly lay claim to the civil rights history of this country, noting that so many advances for ordinary Americans, women, African Americans, and others have come through the efforts of those progressives who have gone before us.
Our struggle remains to create a more just and fair society in the 21st Century. In international affairs, we encourage the spread of human liberty first and foremost through the example we give the world in our adherence to it in our government and in our daily lives. We will stand by our principles and values as a nation and proudly promote them but we will not force them on others. Just as we would not have others choose for us, we will not choose for them.
Accountability: None of us is an island. We live together in a society and that society is part of the larger world. We are accountable to each other. We are responsible to our society and our society is responsible to and for us. As responsible citizens, we seek both to protect the rights of individuals and ensure that they have the basic tools to succeed in our society. This is not a giveaway. It is an investment in ourselves and our society. It means an effective education system, affordable healthcare for all, and a safe, clean environment.
Opportunity: We believe in it. We believe our country and our society are best served by unleashing the talents of our people, all our people. We emphasize again the importance of education, healthcare, and the environment to our nation’s wellbeing and in the creation and promotion of opportunity for all. We believe in protecting and encouraging the “little guy,” individuals and small to medium sized businesses who cannot afford to hire lobbyists to write special interest laws that protect the narrow, anticompetitive interests of a few giant conglomerates.
Investment: We must invest in our infrastructure and our future. Roads, ports, and bridges must be built and maintained. A free and open Internet and media are essential to our growth, our learning, and our democracy. Such investment contributes to our collective security and stability as a country.
What’s more, it is the role of government to define our security not only in terms of threats presented by foreign enemies or terrorists, but also in terms of the health and viability of our planet. Progressives stand with the overwhelming scientific consensus that we face a man-made global climate crisis requiring public investment, private incentives, and a rapid deployment of existing technologies to radically reduce man-made carbon emissions. We must act now before it is too late for ourselves and for our children.
Michael Scott @ 113
hahahahahahaha – that’s good.
smoked me out. what the hell: it’s midnight somewhere:
“Olly Olly oxen free”
woo hoo; I’m free!
great manifesto, Pach.
RBG @ 109
57 minutes until the hiatus ends!
Yay, welcome back wonderful friend, you were so missed!
Michael Scott @ 113
you’re a leg up on the other punsters….
the race is in your pocket…
TSF! I made it. Good to be back.
kirk murphy @ 124
it’s riveting, isn’t it?
Great quote from Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz in this article from the Palm Beach Post about Foley. I think she’s got this one pretty well-framed for the Democrats, at least until we learn more.
Oh, and ABC talked to FIVE pages.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/n….._1001.html
And have you notice how everyone in Blogtopia [h/t StBK] puts a little (sp?) after Congressman Shimkus’ name, even when they spell it right?
Hello, we all missed you, Punaise. We’ve been seriously pun-starved. {{{{HUG}}}}}
punaise @ 120
punaise! the tubes released you!
I like to keep things simple.
I am a Progressive because I believe in
Truth (accountability, transparency, responsibility in all areas)
Justice (equal justice for all)
The American Way supporting the Constitution, wanting America to once again to be a country I can be proud of.
punaise @ 120
pun
it’s not midnight yet
punaise @ 126
rather brassy of you, don’t you think?
Kewalo @ 117
Damn liberals. Always worried about facts and fairness. No wonder we’ve been losing so many elections. How about this then…
Repubelickin Congressman is a SEXUAL PREDATOR OF MINORS, and GOP leadership provides cover for him to commit more abuses.
Also, it’s common knowledge that any sexual predator is a repeat offender. Usually goes on for years until they’re caught. Plus, let’s be real, if we KNOW he’s soliciting a 16 year-old and he’s what, 40s, 50s(?), it’s very possible he’s tried this on younger boys, which would make him a pedophile in nearly all of the country.
Seriously, the guy obviously is a sick man and needs help. Regardless of the politics, he needs to be monitored. In the meantime, we NEED to win in November.
Punaise, here a little something I’ve been saving for just this moment.
Suzanne @
131
my alter-ego sprung me early at #119
kirk! hot flash! RBG! (heckuva Wild Thing there….)
sorry, pun, old habits yanno. glad ya got an early release and am happy to see ya back here again.
Kewalo @ 117
I agree with the last sentence.
“As much as anything else, that is what this scandal is about — GOP House Leaders prancing around as the Protectors of our nation’s children from Internet Predators while, at the same time, apparently knowing that there was such a predator in their midst.”
ref: Greenwald
[bold text: kjm]
bonkers @ 133
I don’t think he’s a bit sick. I think that’s an excuse. I think he is a closeted gay man that didn’t know how to meet other gay adults because he was afraid he might be outed (and where would he go to meet them anyway) so he turned to younger men, and teens. I’m sure that while there was an element of excitement in writing to them, I also think that he thought he’d be safe because of his position.
Thank you very much for not reaming me, LOL.
I hope to God the dems wring every bit of publicity out of this we can. It’s manna from heaven and karma for the republicans. God knows they deserve a little karma.
YAHOO!
kirk murphy @
132
it’s such an inseamly affair
punaise, punaise – you’re free!
(oh yeah…now that you’re back….have you heard of the Dungeons and Torture act? Kinda like Dungeons and Dragons, except the players are Rove, Cheney, and Addington.)
Suzanne @ 137
hey Suzanne….I did miss you all in Late Nite for the month. Lurked only on occasion.
punaise @ 140
ingenious
I guess with jeans we can’t make off the cuff remarks.
Kewalo @ 139
kirk murphy @ 138
I agree completely. Madsen has an article up that just blew my mind. How trustworthy is Madsen? Anybody have an opinion?
http://waynemadsenreport.com/
He’s saying there’s a pedophile ring.
kirk murphy @ 141
man,what a hideous chapter in American history. this better be the nadir.
Regarding Pach’s post, why do so many say ‘progressive’ nowadaze instead of ‘liberal’? I hope it’s not because of the villifing Limpbaugh and the mainstream media have done to ‘liberals’ for the last 20-30 years. If so, we’d be playing right into their hands. We need to rehabilitate the word LIBERAL.
RBG @ 134
I think we deserve a spew warning when posting something like this.
err….perhaps my inner hobbit doth protest too much, but there may be a troll hereabouts….
kirk murphy @ 150
well, it ain’t kewalo.
punaise @ 147
i’d like to think so. i’m afraid i don’t. and i’m afraid because i don’t.
“when in the course of human affairs…”
Valley Girl @ 151
Thanks VG – I can’t imagine why anyone would think I’m a troll. I don’t live under the bridge anymore.
hey, Valley Girl!
kirk murphy @ 152
Welcome back, punaise. I missed you.
high five, neuro
About that troll…you know, we haven’t seen Punaise for a month. Perhaps while he was gone he was taken by the Madsenites and has come back to channel Leopold visions in order to discredit us.
How Can I Be Sure?
Neuro—refreshing, ain’t it?
punaise @ 154
Hey Punaise. Welcome back. And soon, perhaps I will be needing to call on you and imm. for morale building in getting back on task… xxxooo
RBG @ 160
Kind of like that button below the comments.
Oh, I guess it’s Punaise. He’s trolling for compliments and FDL love.
I prefer principles as a term as opposed to values. The one thing that I almost never see in reference to either value or principles is the word honor. Forgive any lack of accuracy in the quote but,
Too many people have forgotten this. Principles have no meaning without honor. To stand for what you believe in without regards to cost, that is what our political class lacks.
Punaise! ‘Bout dam time.
Valley Girl @ 162
an utter lack of self-can-troll
RBG @ 158
Maybe Leaverman watched that video for inspiration on his newest ad…
http://nedlamont.com/blog/1600…..er#comment
Punaise- time for a kitty pic, doncha think?
Over at No Quarter is a takeoff of Jeff Foxworthy’s you might be a redneck shtick.
http://noquarter.typepad.com/m……html#more
Valley Girl @
160
standing by…
Valley Girl @ 167
I’ll see what I can rustle up
Kewalo @ 153
well, it ain’t kewalo.
Thanks VG – I can’t imagine why anyone would think I’m a troll. I don’t live under the bridge anymore.
because of what you wrote. but I trust VG, so I accept you are not a troll on this site. my patients who describe child sexual abuse when they were sixteen or seventeen would not accept your dismissal of their experience. nor do I. Kewalo @ 146
I agree with the last sentence. "As much as anything else, that is what this scandal is about — GOP House Leaders prancing around as the Protectors of our nation’s children from Internet Predators while, at the same time, apparently knowing that there was such a predator in their midst." ref: Greenwald [bold text: kjm]
I agree completely. Madsen has an article up that just blew my mind. How trustworthy is Madsen? Anybody have an opinion? http://waynemadsenreport.com/ He’s saying there’s a pedophile ring.
punaise @ 169
Thanks, Punaise. You and imm. have been great FDL friends, much needed at various times. xxoo
Kirk Murphy, Gotta be honest here, I can’t imagine what I wrote that would make you think I was a troll. Because I don’t consider late teens, 16/17, children? And I certainly can’t see where I dismissed anyone’s feeling about child abuse, even though I don’t consider teens children.
What happened? Did everybody leave because I showed up or did you all turn into pumpkins?
kirk murphy- kewalo is def. not a troll. Not to worry. Madsen is usually off the wall, but sometimes gets it right- took a while for me to figure this out. Not defending Madsen- just saying that he does have a way of sucking people in, as he did me, at one point. And, over the past few days (has it been that long?) there has been a lot of discussion about minors/ adults/ teens/ age of consent, etc. etc. Perhaps part of the misunderstanding came from the abbreviated language that Kewalo used in the comment. Whatever, it was a sincere question, and I know that you have have unique experience that might help.
These are definately NOT Progressive values…
http://news.independent.co.uk/…..777847.ece
Sorry to get all link-happy, but how’s Liebershithead gonna explain this. I’m no expert, but don’t think this’ll “play well” in Baghdad. Karen Hughes babe, ya got yer work cut out for you, honey. You don’t mess with Ramadan.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..mi_ea/iraq
Everyone of us MUST get out and work on a campaign, wherever you are. We must win big in Nov.
had an interesting exchange over at Taylor Marsh’s place today on the topic in question.
I don’t care to slice Foley’s transgressions too finely, but isn’t the actual word for his attraction ephebefilia?
Valley Girl @ 175
So this troll thing is over Madsen? Well dang! someone turned me on to the link and I asked what I thought was a legitimate question since I don’t know anything about him and this somehow turns into a big deal? Jeebus! Why didn’t somebody just say he was an asshat if that is what he is.
Rather then just make some kind of judgement, why in the hell not just ask me. I know I don’t write as well as some people but I can usually get my point across. I gave a link and asked for info. That shouldn’t be considered troll behavior.
cat pix:
Louis 1
Louis 2
Louis 3
punaise @ 180
ohmystars! what a cutie
Kewalo @ 179
kewalo- I don’t know that the response had to do with the Madsen thing. I just mentioned that, in case. I think it has to do with the issue of age- children, vs. teens, and so on. Kirk Murphy is a “shrink” (Kirk, may a call you that?) and has also, like you, been a great contributor to FDL. What I think happened was that the two of you were simply on different pages (oh dear, didn’t mean that pun but I’ll take it anyway) in terms of language re: this issue.
Kewalo @ 173
Kewalo – I accept that you are sincere, and not a troll. I apologize I did not take the time to describe the following:
(1) My patients include people with an onset of sexual abuse – always “within the family” at the age of 16 or 17. The family dynamics were always authoritarian, so the opportunity for differentiation was constricted by beatings. Those 16 and 17 year olds considered themselves children when the abuse began.
(2) I believe them. I accept the truth of their experience.
(3) I invite you to join me in respecting their truth: child sexual abuse really does happen to sixteen and seventeen year olds.
Again, I apologize for not having communicated with more precison and less perjoration.
[ps - and i cheerfully answer to “shrink”. i’m hoping to inspire my waistline….]
TeddySanFran @ 178
Ephebophilia, close enough.
I know the age of consent in California is 18. What is the age of consent in Florida and Louisiana?
However, the Foley Federal Law defines victims as under the age of 18 iirc.
thanks to VG for “mentoring” my sabblogical.
punaise @
180
Punaise, thanks for the kitty fix. That #2 pic? Def. worthy of a centerfold in PlayCat magazine. What a wonderful pic.
punaise:
Can I have Louis?
Please?
I didn’t think so.
kirk murphy @ 183
Isn’t sexual abuse about power and control, doc? Foley just got off on being able to completely control this poor kid. I read the first two pages of the emails and couldn’t read more. It was too disturbing. This dude is a PREDATOR in the purest sense of the word, seems to me. Don’t care what any law about 15 or 16 says, or if there was physical contact. In your professional judgement, shouldn’t he be off the streets? Isn’t he likely to repeat?
Of course if it’s all proven that is…
Punaise,
Like Karl Rove, are you an architect?
(saw some drawings getting trampled by Louis…)
neurophius @ 188
during his evil moments (I have scars to prove it) he’s all yours….
bonkers @ 191
I don’t know whether punaise is an architect, but I know he is not “Like Karl Rove.”
Besides, KKKarl isn’t a real architect, anyway.
Wow, out of a difficult exchange between two great commenters, I learn about a subject completely new to me called ephebophilia
bonkers @ 191
ewww, that’s one of those “when did you stop beating your wife?” questions. :~)
(yes)
kirk murphy @ 183
OK Shrink If I sounded in anyway that I didn’t empathize with anyone, regardless of age that was a victim of abuse I apologize. That was simply the furthest thing from my mind.
My mind has been on this internet porntalk issue, with adults and teens. Really, I can’t put that in the same catagory with family abuse that has so many terrible ramifications. I have no doubt that these kids consider themselves children at that age. I had a good friend that was abused by her father and there were many times that even as an adult the experience left her feeling like a child.
But it turns out that Foley was a co-sponsor of the Adam Walsh law that could very well be used to jail the SOB.
So peace and love brother…Lets get the GOP leadership to step down and keep this in the news for the next 6 weeks.
punaise is the architect of FDL’s punfrastructure.
punaise @ 192
The picture in http://i54.photobucket.com/alb…..ure054.jpg
it just makes you want rabble rouse him until he strikes back and tries to disembowel your forearm. Kittens get over things so quickly though.
punaise @ 195
Ha! Sorry about that. (battling sleep deprivation at the moment) That’s a hideous linkage to make while trying to be funny. Please accept my apology.
Anyway, asked cuz I seriously considered that as a career choice in my younger days. Still wonder if I should’ve done it – like you that is, not in a KKKarl fashion…
Hi, Gang,
just got home from a great concert by the Anchorage Symphony. Bumped into a lot of conservative friends who have HAD IT UP TO HERE! A couple of them ranting about the Foley thing, but mostly frustration with the ineptitude of the Bush administration.
I got my VW Golf TDI back on Friday from an auto body shop which is way conservative/NASCAR modality. The guys there are ALL voting for progressives, even though they’re hosting a Sarah Palin fundraiser too (she’s the GOP Gubernatorial candidate).
Kewalo @ 196
Kewalo, thanks for your understanding response! Again, I apologize for my fierce response.
I love the idea of Foley hoist on …
err..
Foley in the dock for the Walsh law, and a GOP stepdown next month!
Peace and love – and thanks for being part of the universe that brought today’s new word: ephebophilia.
:)
neurophius @ 197
Oh. I thought that was archiTrex. Oh well…
Helpless Dancer @ 198
he’s already outgrowing it. discovering the outdoors helped (just couldn’t keep him in the house).
I’ll be toddling off now. thanks all for la bienvenue chalereuse…
RBG @ 194
Good! Years ago (like 30 or so) I knew this scumbag that was a pedophile. He actually used to say “after 8 it’s too late.” And back then we just didn’t do anything even though most of us suspected he was abusing his daughter. Today, his butt would go straight to jail. But because of that I did some research on pedophilia and came across ephebophilia. I feel guilty to this day.
Personally I don’t think Foley is a bit sick. I think it was a power, excitement trip with him. I just think he’s a disgusting perv.
Kewalo @ 204
You don’t think he has done this many times before or since this time in question? If he has, I would call it sick. Maybe sociopath is a better word…
Good night, punaise!!
Welcome back.
Just stopping in on the way to bed.
I just wrote Elissa’s eulogy.
Oh, TRex, I’ll think of you tomorrow. I’m sure you’ll do well and make Elissa proud. My best to you.
TRex! Would you feel up to sharing it with us? We’re a friendly, compassionate audience.
just for the record, Mark Foley is 52.
Hey TRex—what time is the memorial? I’d like to take a moment to reflect while you’re speaking.
SteveAudio @ 208
It’s pretty long. Maybe I will share it as a Late Late Nite thread tomorrow night or something. I wrote it in my notebook rather than typing it on the computer.
Good night, therapod….
congratulations on your work…
wish it were not needed….
Yes, I think Foley’s done this before. The clue is the Alexander-to-Reynolds report about the Page’s parents’ complaint. I believe this communication to Reynolds was not politically motivated but because Reynolds’ new chief of staff had been Foley’s. Sort of a “your new guy will know how to handle this problem I have with my former Page’s family, because Foley’s done this before and your new guy kept it quiet then.”
The chief of staff’s been advising Foley the past few days in the current crisis. Facts from Aravosis, theory mine.
The service is at 2:00pm eastern.
bonkers @ 205
Personally I wouldn’t call him sick no matter how many times he’s done it. But that’s just me. I would be curious about the Shrinks opinion.
But I actually think that people can do bad things, repeatedly and not have a mental illness. Abramoff stole and lied countless times for money, is he sick too?
Some people just like talking dirty, usually it wouldn’t be a big deal but Foley got extra kicks imagining young men and that is nasty and probably illegal. I think he’s just a nasty old man.
TRex @ 211
You’ll bring the house down with it, my friend.
As you know, I just revisited my sister’s passing from 4 years ago, and looked back at what I wrote then. Out of such painful moments comes painful truth, and hopefull, lasting beauty.
Elissa knew she had such good friends as you. You did a mitzvah.
We’ll be thinking of you then, my friend.
Don’t forget the power exchange at work in Foley’s predation — the Page is the lowest in the system, a GOP member of the leadership near its pinnacle. The contact would be thrilling for both, but used by the more powerful for sexual gratification.
You know, I guess I’m glad that the Republicans are going to get crucified on this, but the whole thing is so creepy, and alllll the sordid details are going to be playing in the news over and over and over.
It’s giving me flashbacks of this 40-something guy that put the moves on me when I was 14. Brrrrrrr.
Well, I’m a big boy. I can take it. And it means that I have a special kind of insight into how these creeps work.
TRex @
211
Eulogies are tough. Writing it out longhand was a good idea. Not counting my dad, I’ve given three over the years.
As a bugler for Bugles Across America, I listen to several eulogies monthly for people I’ve never met, let alone known. The similarities from one to the next get blown out the window every once in a while by somebody who brings all the people honoring the deceased to tears of laughter. The best way to bring a close friend or relative back to life in a eulogy is to show their wit, passion and heart.
TRex: I’ve put up some posters at my place, including a couple of pretty good Foley ones, check them out when you get a chance.
And am I the only one, that I keep thinking of Foley catheters when I heark “Mark Foley”?
TRex @ 219
Don’t you imagine that all over our wonderful country tonight, parents of Pages and former Pages are wrestling with how to approach this question with their children, thanks to Denny Hastert, enabler? And think of the flashbacks, just like yours, that the Pages and former Pages must be having when they hear this on the news.
Thanks, Mr. Speaker, heckuva job. GOP fucking family values.
TeddySanFran @ 213
So far two young men have come forward (ABC says they have talked to five) The original emails that came out were fairly innocuous. Creepy, but clean. These were the emails that started this whole mess. They were given to the Rep leadership a year ago.
Then after this came out a second young man came forward and he had saved the IM’s that Foley sent him and they are way over the line. Really disgusting crap.
So, you’re right, he’s done this before and is officially toast.
ET 220:
Word!
We had a bugler at my pop’s graveside (Korean War), quite a lovely moment.
Thanks for what you do.
I wrote about how when I was in Japan, Elissa’s music was the only thing that could help me fall asleep. And how the beauty of her voice was the sound of her soul.
I said that when I get too sad and angry about her being gone, I have to remind myself how lucky I was to have known her at all, let alone to be her friend.
SteveAudio @ 221
Steve, you are sick and twisted.(laughin) No wonder I like you. (head hanging) I thought I was the only one who made that (shudder) association.
TRex @ 225
Like I said last night, music has power over souls that nothing else has. Thanks for sharing your love of her with us.
Kewalo, I meant to write, “He’s done this before and they all knew.”
“Timmy, you ever seen a gladiator movie?
You ever had a Foley catheter put in?”
Suzanne @ 226
No, I was thinking that, too. But I used to work in health care.
Good luck tomorrow TRex. I know the eulogy will go well since you have such a wonderful way with words. I hope you share it with us.
g’nite all, sweet dreams, see you on the Bird Thread (or later!)
TRex, what you wrote will be exactly right because it is from your heart.
g’nite, TSF
TeddySanFran @ 228
Yes, I agree completely.
Will someone please tell me what’s the matter with Madsen? I was really taken with his pedophile ring article. Is he to be believed?
Hey Kewalo—Madsen’s rep is pretty far out there on the conspiracy continuum. Doesn’t mean he’s not correct, just mean anything he says needs to be carefully weighed against other evidence.
Kewalo: How you doing? Good to see you tonight.
SteveAudio @
224
Hardest 24 notes there are to play – “Taps.” I play off in the distance, usually under a tree, to mute the sound somewhat. But I have to stay close enough so the NCO in charge of the burial detail and I can maintain eye contact. So I’m close enough to everyone that i have to deal with the reactions of the family and friends when they hear that cold tune which means the ceremony is over.
Funny, growing up on a military base, you hear taps all the time, every day at sunset. I don’t think of it as a cold tune at all. It’s restful to me. The final notes. A brave soldier gone to rest.
I find taps melancholy, but comforting.
TRex @ 239
TRex- perhaps ET was speaking in the particular context of burying someone right then and there. I do think that is what he meant by “cold”.
RBG @ 236
Thanks RBG, when I know someones reputation is shaky I’ll research the info they post. I really found the ring idea intriguing. I guess I’ll just ignore it then after a little google around the web.
ET 238, TR 239:
My pop didn’t have a full blown military funeral, just a flag, and Taps.
Melodies certainly evoke feelings inside of humans, and certain ones evoke certain responses. Taps is a lovely, simple, melody, one that we are trained to associate with a specific context. et, outside that context, I truly believe that it’s a perfect melody.
Otherwise, it wouldn’t work within the context we hear it, funerals, etc.
Many melodies cause similar reactions with folks, this is one of the best ones.
Alright, guys, there’s a kitty in my lap telling me it’s time to come to bed.
Sleep tight.
SteveAudio @ 237
Hey Steve, I was just delighted tonight that you followed your link to the message board. I posted a comment at your house. After you showed up I told everybody how brillant I think you are. LOL. Also read the HuffPo piece…nicely done. I commented there too LOL
And it’s nice to see you too. I sure do like those campaign ads at your place. Anybody that hasn’t gone over and checked them out is a loser. They are just great!!!
TRex: g’night, amigo.
Kewalo: Thanks for the kind remarks! Those message boards are pretty interesting. I need to go back, now that I’ve registered, and see how I can help send Nancy Grace to oblivion.
Valley Girl @
240
You’re both right.
TRex, when you see a widow shudder upon hearing the first notes of a bugle call she has heard so many times it is imprinted in her DNA, it is a cold song. It happens near the end of the ceremony or at the end. I’ve also seen people reassured by the sound of “taps.”
I’ve also played that cold tune at 25 below zero, when I have to coat the mouthpiece with vaseline so my lips don’t get welded to the silver, gold and brass of my instrument.
Night all. It’s been alot of fun. After last week’s torture vote I was feeling so down. But I love the karma they are getting for trying to ruin the country. They deserve way more then this. Those bastards.
Bless you, TRex.
I second that emotion. Night, all.
Kewalo, have you seen McCranium today? Thanks for recommending it to me.
ET – You still here? …..would you give me a post office address to mail a check to Benson in honor of all the times Don Young has screamed women into stunned silence? I won’t easily forget his tirade at me in front of a group of my students when I challenged him about drilling up in the Refuge. Or how quickly he could turn it off when tv crews rushed up with their cameras to film him. He’s a bully, particularly with women.
But I’m an old fashioned put it in the mail type. So please post a mailing address, if you can.
NZ Expat–I just happen to have that address from a donation earlier this week.
Diane Benson for Congress
P.O. Box 200408
Anchorage, AK 99520
As my final thought for the night, and something for the morning crew to consider…just $209 reaches the Blue America goal for Steve Porter.
Let’s show Howie how much we appreciate all his efforts.
NZ Expat @
251
Hey, NZexpat. you’ve got Don pegged. He’s my Representative.
I just sent him this letter. Others might think of a variation to send to their GOP congressman or congresswoman:
Dear Rep. Young.
About a year ago, House Majority Leader Dennis Hastert was told that Rep. Mark Foley was implicated for soliciting sex from more than one 16-YO page. Hastert has acknowledged he was informed of this. Rep. John Boehner has also been aware of this, as have other high-ranking members of the House GOP leadership. No investigation occurred, past the point of several attempts to hide the facts and placate the victims.
How do you think this serious situation should have been handled by your party’s leadership? How should what appears to be potential lawbreaking and protection of pedophilia within the leadership of your party be dealt with now? Do you plan on making a statement soon to reassure the parents of young people attending your campaign events that their kids will be safe?
Thanks for the address….I’ll get acting on that tomorrow…..we’re on daylight savings time here, so I’m moving closer in clock time to you all (but further away on the calendar, if that makes any sense). Right now, there is only a two hour difference between Alaska and us…we’re just a day ahead. At least, that’s how I’m trying to calculate it….It is 10:11 here…
NZ Expat @
254
0117 hours here.
Are you one or two hours behind CA?
Hmmmm, haven’t wmr’d in a while … 9/28 might be a day to tuck away.
Sorry if this is OT,
We have been entertaining and enjoying two grandchildren this weekend 4 and 5 yrs. old, so not much time to lurk.
Just finished reading Jane’s “See How They Run” downthread, but dropped to bottom of this thread to ask a few questions.
1. Did the Congress break for the “election recess” or is the new scandal delaying the break?
2. Since Tom Delay was in the picture for much of this period, can he be involved in any problems the “leadership” may have?
3. Since Hastert, Boehner, and Blunt have now invoked “the full weight of the criminal justice system…”, is a Special Prosecutor with subpoena powers and the right to demand testimony under oath a possibility?
I know, these questions are probably hypothetical, but it sure would be nice to hear the community’s “take” on the issue.
Sorry, if already discussed, but after the “downer” earlier in the week, I am trying to be optimistic.
Pach, I hope this is not a hijacking of your great thread.
Al Franken alluded some time ago to Hastert’s liking for boys. I have also heard speculation about Boner being in the closet. What are the chances that both these men are in fact predators themselves?
Mornin’
Haven’t read it yet, but the NYT has a story tracking the campaign contributions to Ohio Supreme Court justices and their decisions. One Repug that’s running for reelection is featured because his numbers are much higher than the rest. His opponent is a scrappy Dem running on the platform that he won’t take contributions (featured prominently at the end of the article) Another turd-in-the-punchbowl October Surprise for a guy who really deserves it. (skipping the link to avoid moderation – it’s at the top of the Politics page)
For some fun, check out this video featuring DeWine and Junya (whoever came up with that, you have my gratitude) I wish I could figure out the YouTube link so people could vote it up there. It’s very catchy.
http://buckeyestateblog.com/boyfriend#comment
Good Morning — Happy Sunday lake dwellers!
bob h @
259
There is no chance that Boehner is in the closet. His sexual problem is different. I do not think such speculation about who is gay is useful or responsible — especially when one leaps to “predators.”
immanetize,
agreed. Franken might well have been tweaking the clearly homophobic Hastert about his ‘wrestling days.’ Boehner – well, who knows what the crevices of that reptilian brain hold. What would the term be? Brain-jam? Lobe smegma? eeewwwww. Brain bleach.
Well GOod Morning All. The day is peaceful here, and although we now enjoy sunshine, there are high thin clouds that usually indicate a weather making front on the move, and the light is a little thin just now. Still, with the growing brilliance of the fall foliage, this day is colorful. I send best wishes for peace and blessings to you wherever you are, and to all people everywhere. May justice rear her sleepy head and be heard.
We had a gathering spondored by VFP (Veterans for Peace) in Bangor yesterday. I noticed tpres commented on that yesterday evening. About 1500 gathered to hear a little speechifying and music, and then a march to the Federal bulding and then back to the riverfront park. That’s a pretty good turnout for Maine–and some people drove nearly 3 hours to get there from norther Maine. VFP is a GREAT group. There were parade floats, big drums, and a costumed group of convicts representing BushCo. I’ll post a link to the photos when it arrives in my Mail box. You all would’ve fit in just fine with the group!!
Great link at 260, BQ.
Hi OS!
Well, everyone, time to shift into first gear and get this day going.
Keep some peace in your heart while you fight the chaos!
Old Sow,
Glad you are going to the streets.
IMHO, the only vehicle to oust Bush is
impeachment for the highest, most highest
crimes that has dehumanized America…
Jack
Bay State Librul (Hi, neighbor!)
I think in a new way that is important, the internet is very much like the streets.
This year, President Bush signed legislation that Foley introduced to bolster penalties against sex offenders and increase efforts to target Internet predators.
snip
I g
continued….I guess we can safely say that Bush knew Foley’s problem at the time.
PS — Wigwam has a nice post up on the mlitary commissions act at Kos.
Help him get some snaps if you can recommend it….
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/1/41059/2429
My DH has his own version of the ICE Bushco uses for one of its programs. His goes Impeach, Convict, Execute.
I agree with the analogy of the toobz to the streets, but it feels GREAT to be out in the streets again, though I wish we were doing it as a means of showing our gartitude for changes made. There were a lot of us yesterday who’ve been doing this it seems like forever, and looking back down the street as the march turned the corner and seeing the masses disappear around a corner with the end not in sight was vastly more rewarding than opening a comment box with 425 or how many comments to read through, however thrilling that is at representing the Power of the People!! That said, I love youse guys!!here at the Lake, and your/our intelligence and fire is inspiring!!
Hi Imm, How’s the family? Little Imm settling into the school routine? You also? I’m pretty impressed at how well you and so many others here manage to read and comment in the midst of your busy professional lives, and I thank you for all that you add to the mix here!! *g*
Morning everyone!
AC2, jmo
Regularly scheduled break.
Excellent point which I have not seen anywhere else.
Don’t know.
IMHO, this story is like DeadEye shooting Harry in the face. Pox News cannot not cover this. That increases the pressure on all individual media outlets to publish scoops about the cover-up in a timely manner. It’s the only way they can separate themselves from Rita Cosby, Nancy Grace types, who will be all over the more prurient material.
Pach–
Personally, if I had to try to sum up my own values, it would be, “We’re all stuck on this water-covered rock together.” :) So I appreciate trying to flesh that out a little more, as you’ve done.
Can I argue for “less is more”? That is, to list a small number of top-line values, then move the discussion underneath. And it should read as a discussion of the values, not definitions of them. I think we can be clearer, establish stronger agreement among ourselves, and make it easier to bring like-minded people into our community.
As it reads now, it sounds like to be a progressive you have to sign on to a lot of detailed positions. I think most of us here can even go along with all of them. But I think that we want people agreeing to emphasize our core values and putting them into action. The positions are consequences, not the values themselves.
I’m proposing to separate the values from the longish discussions of the values. Then we can agree on the values entirely, and we can find others who agree with them entirely.
You might say I’m for trying to turn this into our equivalent of “Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite”. Even just those three values themselves are not so bad as a progressive motto, though nowadays I’d feel compelled to add Verite…
Which actually brings me to another point: the words used for the principles enumerated: Fairness, Opportunity, Accountability, and Investment are mostly Latinate. Can we find acceptable Anglo-Saxon alternatives, which have a stronger impact in a manifesto-like setting? Such as Fairness, Worth, Good Faith, and Growth. I’m sure there are many others, and 100% A-S isn’t necessary to acheive. I think people are affected by the relative emotional resonance of the words used, beyond just their definitions.
JC at 273__”IMHO, this story is like DeadEye shooting Harry in the face. Pox News cannot not cover this. That increases the pressure on all individual media outlets to publish scoops about the cover-up in a timely manner. It’s the only way they can separate themselves from Rita Cosby, Nancy Grace types, who will be all over the more prurient material.”
A serious issue to be sure, and perhaps our biggest crack in the GOP armor so far as the vast unwashed masses are concerned and so let the talking heads talk, but still, teehee on them for their closeted corruptions spilling out and forcing ALL those doors open. (This reference to closets is not intended to refer to orientation.)
John Casper,#273
Thank you for the response.
There are so many talented members of this community and I always appreciate their “take” on the issues, but you sir, are always so respectful of everyone.
I am just so glad that after TWO and a HALF DAYS I have Internet access… (Thanks, Earthlink! NOT)
SO that I can come here and type what an unmitigated ASS/JERK/FRAT BOY/FillInTheBlankWithYourOwnWord Frank Luntz is.
He is on Washington Journal and I want to scream. It would be much better if Christy could debate him, instead of Anna Greenberg.
He’s good at what he does. But who wants to be a good liar?
AND I call bullshit on his story of why he is in CT (closing his grandfather’s house)
BQ @
260
LInk
AppleCanyon2,
I think that TPM or the Muckraker mentioned the potential DeLay involvement, particularly since, by their reckoning, one of the interns (possibly) involved left in 2003. Roy Blunt would also be deemed to be in the loop, I imagine.
windje,
thank you, I’ve never been able to find a danged thing on YouTube.
Really great post, Pach. Your expression of Progressive values is right on the mark. Thank goodness we have you to spotlight.
And a HUGE bucket of appreciation for all the work you continue to do on the Roots Project.
BQ @ 280
FWIW, Actually the way I located it is to double click on the Utube screen in the buckeyestateblog webpage you linked to, which then opens the Utube web page you want.
;>)
new thread upstairs in case anyone is still hangin out here…….
BQ @ 260
I live in central Ohio, and I am emailing this link to ALL of my friends and family (including a relative that is always invited to these very expensive fundraisers). Dead on video.
c
moderator, could you just kill my comments? All 3? I just get a javascript error and can never edit.
Lots of great feedback, folks. Nothing is finalized yet, and I really appreciate the very helpful and insightful thoughts of the community. In an open source movement, I’m not sure what "finalized" means, actually.
Using Anglo-Saxon words intrigues me and your reworking, Hugh, reads really well. I’ll spend some time to look more closely at what you’ve done as a contrast. Jeff’s ideas about "principles" make sense to me from a certain point of view, but then again, I fear the distinction might come across as artificial and a little off key of we begin to make it broadly to people in the future. Insisting we have "principles," not using the word "values," might just sound weird to broad swaths of the population. But there’s lots of great, thoughtful feedback here, and I greatly appreciate it, as always.
Excellent work! Professor @274 makes a crucial point. These ideas have to developed in a consistent manner at multiple levels of complexity, from the simplest “sound bites” (I hate to use that term) to the underlying manifesto. Think about how the neocon agenda, with respect to a worldview at least, started to take shape during the Reagan years and coalesced into PNAC in the 90’s and continues today in its most simplistic form. We can certainly disagree with it, but it’s all there for everyone to see in its completely developed form.
Also, I think the idea of “principles” vs “values” is quite astute and important. One needn’t rule out the other. Exploring the distinctions will make this project more robust and valuable, even if the term “principles” never makes it into final public form.
The Roots Project is vital and can’t be rushed, but this is a wonderful start as a sample of the work that’s been done over these last few months. If our so-called leaders won’t do it, then we must.
Cat pic: Lenny Benny
I am so happy about this.
I have been in a continual moral rage at this administration for years, and I am certainly not alone. –At their squandering billions of dollars of public money on failed projects and stuffing the pockets of cronies, for one thing. I think it has been the primary act of the administration, as a matter of fact, to loot the treasury for private gain on all failed projects (Name one that succeeded!) It is public tax money, or borrowed money that they intend the taxpayers to repay in the next generation! This is a moral outrage among many others: Gutting the Constitution! Arresting and holding people forever without due process! As I grew up, I was taught that the REASON we are America is that We do not do these horrible things to people — we are a government of laws, not men. What will they teach people now? They have to rewrite all of the history books! We arrest people now without due process and hold them forever. Torture is permitted. It is no longer America if we do these things. What is America now? An oligarchy where the rich steal from the poor and gut our laws, our environment, and our Constitution.
I have been in a moral rage against the Republicans for years– they steal elections, they bomb and murder innocent people, they hire mercenaries, they destroy the environment, they take payoffs from the drug companies, the oil companies, the chemical companies. They have become a ruling oligarchy. They control the Press– all things we always considered un-American.
And still these digbats hold some sort of script as a moral voice — Why? Because they oppose abortion. Listen to this –
if we give them the abortion issue, Can we have our democracy back? Can we restore the American Constitution? Can we protect people from the drug companys’ corruption — with no oversight they are allowed to sell people drugs that will kill them in order to increase their profits?
The Republicans allow the oil and chemical companies to dictate how many policies? War and peace among them. The destruction of our air, our water, our earth goes on. Are we not in a moral rage about that? And to threaten to gut social security– so the rich cronies can get richer–
How do you like that: All that money lying there belonging to poor people, and middle class people — and the rich want to take it for themselves in profits — because for some reason they are not rich enough yet!
See you got me started about my values rage — and I could go on all day.
The Democrats have ALWAYS been about values.
They have somehow been coerced and beaten into silence by the success of the Rove-right-wing media-control — and their own ties to the corporations — which we see in the great stuff that has been published lately about the “Democratic” PR-money groups in DC, the Consultant class, and the DLC. They have made their own pacts with the oligarchy and sold out the store.
I love your taking back the values issue for the Democrats. I appreciate that you have to rebuild it from scratch. Remember the Democrats were always the party of justice and social justice. And that’s why we are so angry that it has been eviscerated and our country has been stolen from us by people who want –What, exactly? Because what is left looks to me like a big value-less void.
They have left it to us to re-create America.
I just threw away my copy of the Marquis de Sade’s The 120 Days of Sodom. The GOP has surpassed it exponentially….
This is what I had to say about my values, earlier this year.
Great post! Beautifully articulated!
I would like to call attention to your use of “man-made global climate crisis” as well as “global climate crisis” as opposed to “global warming”. The fact that at this time the average temperature of the earth is increasing is NOT the more important issue. The fact that earth is becoming more enshrouded by man made gases causes the earth to have a more uniform distribution of temperature – that is the problem. Some parts of the earth will become cooler while at the same time other parts will become warmer. Granted, the poles melting and high tides becoming higher are severe problems. Just as important IMHO is that temperature conditions over the entire planet, as well as the increased volatility in weather, will cause a host of other problems affecting agriculture, living conditions, etc. etc. etc.
Even Al Gore often uses the term “global warming”. If those who do not believe we have a crisis only look at the small temperature increase, they will never realize that we do indeed have a crisis on hand. It may be wishful thinking, but I believe that use of the term “global climate crisis” and a greater focus on the man-made impact on the ozone layer may have a better chance of capturing the necessary attention than using the more commonly used term “global warming”.
I agree that less is more, fewer syllables are better, etc. I also think the Values or Principles need to be embedded in a context. Abtractions = hard to remember; stories & examples = easy to remember. Here’s my take.
Our narrative begins with Tom Paine, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. It runs from the Declaration of Independence through the Gettysburg Address and Lincoln’s Second Inaugural, to Roosevelt’s Four Freedoms, to Kennedys “ask not what your country can do for you,” to Martin Luther King’s Letter from Birmingham Jail.
Our core principle is, “Democrats welcome people of many differing views who share the belief that it is the role of government to serve and protect the people.”
Therefore, we support:
free and fair elections
campaign finance reform
Roosevelt’s Four Freedoms: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from want, freedom from fear
the right to live one’s private life without government interference – live and let live – tolerance.
Thence flow civil rights, separation of church and state, worker’s rights, the right to a fair trial, a social safety net for the needy, protection of the people’s health by environmental regulation, preservation of national parks for the people’s recreation, and other traditional Democratic values.
The Republicans are now the party of Big business, wasteful spending, corruption, self-dealing, government-imposed morality. We can turn their abandoned ideals of limited government and fiscal discipline against them.
We are the party of the people. Democrats can be the party of fiscal discipline, prudence, open government, balance of powers, responsibility–all in the service of the people. Our theme song: Copland’s “Fanfare for the Common Man.”
I think that Bush voters are mostly sincere Christians who would go out of their way to help a neighbor, who believe in charity towards the needy. They are the kind of people who would stop to help you change your tire and who put together presents for needy families at Christmas. They find many social changes troubling, they like security and certainty, and the Republicans have fed them a worldview that appeals to their fears and self-righteousness.
We can use biblical language to talk about helping the poor rather than the rich, the widow and orphan rather than the fat cat, forgiveness rather than punishment, justice for all.
We can revive the words of the founders. We have allowed the far right to take biblical and enlightenment language and twist it into a new meaning. We need to take it back and use it as Lincoln used it. And we need to start talking about common sense. Horse sense. Pragmatism. Can-do. The American way. Working together to solve problems. Barn-raisings. Town meetings. Neighborliness, not passing moral judgment on others. The values of a proud, courageous, free people.