On Sunday I’m going to read a eulogy for my friend Elissa at her memorial service. It has taken this long to marshall the resources necessary to handle the thousand or so people who will be there to mourn her and to say goodbye.
The thing I loved the most about Elissa (and it’s a tight race) was the music inside her. She just had this voice. You know, sometimes you know people in bands and they have good voices, but you can kind of tell that they listen to a lot of Dave Matthews or a lot of Sarah McLachlan. Their influences are out there on their sleeve, still, because they haven’t truly inhabited their voices yet.
Elissa wasn’t like that. Her voice was the sound of her soul. It had a certain restful quality, a whisper in every note that made her singing so, I dunno, intimate. It’s the same quality that Sade and Roberta Flack have, that "Shhhhhhhh, listen…" thing. It’s the opposite of a high lonesome sound. It’s a sound that says, "I am close to you, so close that I can whisper. Listen to me".
Here she is singing Peter Gabriel’s The Washing of the Water.
One of the singers we completely bonded over was Tori Amos. I know some people just hate her and I will admit that she has her occasional moments of moist, pink overkill, but most of the time there’s just nothing like her. She is a singer’s singer, doing brave, miraculous things with melody and harmony. She can be clear and bracing or wild and lush or ice cold and distant, sometimes all within the space of a single line.
I understand, though, why guys like my brother and my ex run from the room screaming with their hands over their ears the moment she starts to really let loose. It’s all just a little too hectic and loopy and feminine for those guys. They have to go wash their brains out with some Motorhead or Led Zeppelin. It’s not butch music at all.
But that’s not what Tori is for. I listen to Tori when I’m overwhelmed, tangled up, and stressed out. She is my musical crazy redhaired girlfriend. Not my sex girlfriend, no, but my, like, *snap!* girlfriend! You know what I mean? Your girlfriend who you can call on the phone and tell her about the guy you have a crush on, or about some bitch who pissed you off, and whatever she’s doing, no matter what time of the day or night, she’s right there with you.
She’s your friend who tells you to get in the car so you can drive across town and whoop somebody’s ass. Old fashioned white-trash yard fight, baby! Tori’s there. She’s your girl. She’s the one swinging the bottle of Jack Daniels, and banging on their door, shouting, "GET YOUR PUNK ASS OUT HERE, YOU BITCH! I’M GONNA KICK YOUR ASS RIGHT HERE IN THE YARD!!"
Hell yeah. Everybody needs a friend like that. She’s always got your back, but she’s always the first one to jerk a knot in your sorry ass if she sees you getting above yourself, or as my French friend used to say, "Farting higher than your asshole."
Back in October of 2001, when everyone was still in shock from 9/11 and it felt like the end of the world, Elissa and I got tickets to see Tori Amos at the Fox Theater in Atlanta. It was just Tori, a grand piano, an electric piano and a few thousand fans and that night, Tori turned it out. She played for two and a half hours, stopping only for a couple of short breaks between encores. She laughed and told stories and jokes and just showed that crowd some serious love. And we needed it.
I have never heard a crowd of people that large be that silent, ever. Between songs it was the usual rock concert rumble of sound, but as soon as she started to sing, the whole room went still as we all strained on the edges of our seats trying to catch and savor every single note. Elissa and I were in raptures. She’d seen Tori in concert a bunch of times, but I’ve only seen her that one time. Elissa kept turning to me and saying, "Oh my god!! She never plays this one live and it’s one of your favorites! She knows you’re here!"
She was kidding of course, but Elissa could say stuff like that and you kind of wanted to believe it anyway. Just to be around her was to briefly be swept up in her slipstream. She had the gift of making you feel like a witty, delightful companion, regardless of the circumstances. You could have a flat tire on the side of the road in the middle of the night with no spare with Elissa and it would be the best time you ever had in your life.
So you can imagine how we felt there in the sold out Fox Theater, holding hands as one of our favorite artists spun out notes and words and stories for hours. It was one of the happiest moments of my life. And it was definitely the best concert I’ve ever seen. It was a whole different approach to the wall between performer and audience. Tori Amos cares about her fans. She worked really really hard that night to make us happy.
I have a bootleg of that concert. It’s remarkably clear. I put a couple of tracks from it on the Tori compilation CD I made for Christy. Like most bootlegs, the crowd is pretty loud, but like I said, as soon as she’s singing, the crowd just vanishes. It’s like we were all holding our breath.
And I imagine that in the roar of the audience between songs, somewhere in all that sound is the sound of me and Elissa, clapping and cheering and having the time of our lives. Sometimes I listen in the headphones so I can hear us cheering at the beginning of "Lust", an obscure album track that I think only Elissa and I truly love. As soon as she started to play it, Elissa and I went "WHOOOOOOOOOO!!", while everyone else around us was kind of like, "What’s this song? I don’t recognize this." If you listen very closely, you can just barely hear us, two happy voices in an ocean of sound.
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TREX!!!!!11!
Thank you, edit. Trex, you and Elissa have my condolences.
Amen, TRex.
TREX,
Thanks for sharing that – really moved me and brought me back to the things in life that really matter.
Yeah, I’ve got a few bootlegs around where you can hear events that were happening in my vicinity. Sometimes it’s me screaming, other times it’s some asshole trying to take my stage-front spot asking if I “WANNA FUCKING DIE???”, I can imagine what a nice memory it is of your friend to be able to hear the two of you on that recording.
I know you’ll do Elissa proud Trex. I kind of like memorials. Funerals are about death, the end of life but memorials are about a live lived and, in this case, lived very well.
Your friend had the emotional bravery of a true artist, as you do. I’m sorry for your loss.
Thanks for the post, T. You’re really a great writer.
Gosh, where is everybody?
Bless you, amigo, for sharing Elissa’s music and talent with us.
I have a soft spot for Tori: I had to go to a solo concert of hers to fix the mixing console, didn’t need to fix the console after all, but already a fan, I was wowed by the show. And don’t get me started on the a’cappella “M, and a Gun…”
Fuck me hard, what a moment!
I’m here, Spanky.
That was “Me, and a Gun”…sorry
Fuck me hard, what a moment!
There you go again, Steve. You are so gay.
I can’t get no respect!
Sorry, TRex. Having too much fun on the Foley thread.
OT, but I’ve been on a little thing of making posters, anyone who wants to see then, head over to my place. And anyone that wants to use them, feel free.
watching lou dobbs on dvr from earlier today.
lieberman is up 10 points on lamont?
is this true?
where is the coverage of this? here or elsewhere?
Sorry I have to post this and run.
Diebold Whistleblowers!
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..192910/359
Concerning Georgia, 2002, Max Cleland.
So far, only ONE publication in Georgia is covering this. THAT MUST CHANGE!
I’m really sorry I have to go now, but this needs SPOTLIGHTING to Georgia papers, and elsewhere on the national scene.
Anyone interested in helping?
LaJim in LA @ 17
Lamont told me Tuesday night in Santa Monica that his internals had him 4 points down.
As usual, YMMV.
TRex @ 9
I’m still here, trex, but I ran out of things to say. I like you, and your friends. And I’m glad I found this place, Firedoglake.
trex, thank you so much for your memories of elissa. you and she loved and shared music together the way i did with my dearest friend. when he died, i wanted so much to keep him alive in my heart, and for others to try and imagine how wonderful he was. you reminded me of that, giving me a beautiful gift.
when elissa first died, i forwarded the link to some friends on a music list i’m on, so a lot of us have been listening to her. and cherishing her beautiful voice.
patrick
Beautiful post, TRex. We’ll be thinking of you and Elissa on Sunday.
TRex @ 13
??? Never knew that to have “gay ownership”!!
VG 23:
Thanks for the support. TRex is just being so mean to me!
SteveAudio @ 19
That is discouraging, actually- 4 points down. Interesting when I was phone-banking in CT for Lamont apparently the fact that the phone call was from “Ned Lamont” showed up for those with caller id- disconcerting for me the first time this happened, as the script was “neutral”- didn’t start out with “Hi, I’m calling from the Lamont campaign”. I wonder how they are doing their internal polling.
Yes’m. I’m here.
Valley Girl @ 25
4 points down is fine. Lieberman has at least two or three more foot-in-mouth moments to go, and a lot of the far right wingers–regardless of the polls–are not going to be able to bring themselves to vote for Al Gore’s running mate.
Seriously, I know what you were talking about on re: Elissa’s voice. Different musicians have different sorts of talents, large, small, broad, intimate.
Some move you inexplicably, for reasons you can’t really put your finger on, but they just do.
One singer who has always deeply moved me is Jeff Buckley. I don’t know if you saw the piece I did about him last week. And no, I’m really not blogwhoring, I just really love Buckley. He took froggy voiced Canadian Leonard Cohen’s rumbling “Hallelujah” and turned it into a soaring personal prayer.
Nothing heals certain parts of the soul like music does. Nothing else.
TRex–you made me wish I had met her.
((((((TRex’s love for Elissa))))))
Rest in peace, my musical sister.
TRex- thanks. I hope all goes well on Sunday (so to say), and that it does your heart good. A dear friend of mine also died way too young- and he was beloved of many. I flew back to the UK to just go to the memorial service, and it was a huge step towards healing the grief.
TRex, you have become known for a certain Tyrannisnarkus style, which I love, but your posts about your friend Elissa have demonstrated that you have much more than that to offer. Thank you for sharing it with us.
neurophius @ 33
You’re welcome.
I was kind of wondering if I hit precisely the wrong note. Everyone’s all fired up in the Foley thread.
trex –
that’s beautiful, both your thoughts and elissa’s cover of “washing in the water.”
Joni Mitchell does for me what Tori does for you. Late at night, after the DP is fast asleep, I get out “Hejira” or “Blue”, and it’s like I’m talking to my best friend. The poetry (and musicianship) is stunning, and the sheer power of Joni’s emotion — not shouted, not screamed, not whispered, but sung in her own, singular voice — helps me sort out whatever is rattling through my cluttered head.
Somehow thoughts of TRex’s friend and the seemingly unrelated “torture bill”, which is so distressing, somehow came together in my mind, to make me remember this:
~~No man is an island
No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
John Donne
http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/…..poem=31231
Trex33:
Good for you!!
TRex- I think it’s just that it’s a Friday nite. Not to worry. Sometimes people don’t comment bec. they can’t think of what to say.
“Death is but crossing the world, as friends
do the seas; they live in one another still.”
-William Penn
TRex @ 33
TRex:
I’ve been working on a studio wiring project here at Audio Central, and listening to the iPod (well, watching too, as it’s the Video one.)
There are places I can go musically where I will always be healed, helped, soothed improved. Many, actually.
Last night I was listening to YesSongs, which is a personal touchstone for me. It’s associated with a lot of both good, and sad events and times in my life, yet it always bouys me up, so that I can face a day with a little more joy in my heart.
Again, YMMV.
TRex @
33
Congratulations!
and how much coffee does a 60 ft therapod take…?
(”one gallon of milk with that, or two?”)
I really messed up that “Quote This Comment.” I inserted “I must admit I stayed on the Foley thread way past the “Late Nite” warning, and yes, people were pretty fired up and ready to AAATTTAAACCCKKK!!! But this is a very nice change of pace.” immediately after my initial quote. The words that follow are TRex’s.
Sorry.
TRex @ 33
No, t, you hit exactly the right note. For all of the ugliness, the bitter sense of loss, and the betrayal that’s been swirling around, you provided a reminder that life and love and hope do go on.
TRex says
September 29th, 2006 at 10:08 pm*
14 months clean and sober, kids.
right on brother TRex, i felt like you were probably a friend of Bills too. i just passed my 3 1/2 year mark and it’s so great to be part of the world again. as you prob already know it just keeps getting better and for a dude like yourself, who is already awesome, that means a lot of really good stuff coming on in the future!! My prayers are with you and Elissa this weekend
kirk murphy @
41
A *LOT* of coffee.
Two gallons, please.
neurophius– I too have discovered that it is alas too easy to screw up when adding comments to a quoted comment, because the end of the screen is not always apparent. I now am religious (so to speak) about Preview. Quel pain.
cameronga @ 44
TRex really is quite awesome, isn’t he?
TRex- I trust that it is okay by now, since this is Late Nite, and our social thread, to once again go OT as to the mundane details of life?
TRex, I will think of your friend, wrapped in light and crowned with stars, singing to you from the full moon’s luminoscity.
Peace. rOTL
Sure.
I thought about asking in the post what everybody’s Best Concert Ever is.
Now that I’ve put that slice of pizza down…TRex!
Sometimes he plays the funnybone, and sometimes the heartstrings.
I hope you’ll have a few laughs with the tears at the memorial service.
Some folks think that is odd, but being Irish, I know better.
Memorials should remember all of a person, and that includes funny stuff, silly stuff, and happy stuff.
I raise my glass (of milk, but it will do!): Here’s to a sweet-sounding soul, Elissa!
TRex @
9
err…cant speak for others…but for me….when I first saw your post tonight..
I was crying…as when you first told us of Elissa….
Thanks for sharing your memories….
TRex @ 50
I saw the Grateful Dead at Madison Square Garden a number of times. (Like 30 or so, or more?) Also, Patti Smith at the Bowery Ballroom on her New Year’s Eve concerts.
Those are probably the best. Also, the Ramones at Toads Place back in 1978ish. So that’s not really a best concert ever, it’s a lot of them.
TRex @ 50
I’ll start it off. My best ever was my very first one. It was 1972(or 3, it was a long time ago) and my older brother took me to Kezar stadium to see Led Zeppelin. The Tubes opened the show. Got there the night before and partied like you could only in the 70’s. Second best was Ronnie Montrose in a small venue.
Wow, the TUBES!!
White Punks on Dope, indeed.
My first concert was Blondie at Six Flags Over Georgia. I was 13.
This obscure English band called Duran Duran opened.
OT I am so goddamned beyond fucking infuriated and soul sickened every night and day at what my country and money has done to people just like me and their friends and families in Iraq. And numbingly on and on no end in sight ever. All for the vanity and unresolved dick issues and greed of a handful of pasty coward wrinkled degenerate sickass fucks. Whom no one ever opposes. It’s beyond unbelievable. I can’t fucking bear it.
Oh well me and a sign and street corner this weekend. Maybe keep me out of the bin.
Sharkbabe @ 56
Aw, easy, Sharkbabe. C’mere. I’ve got a cold compress for your forehead and a glass of tea for you. Shhhhhhhh, now.
Rest your head on mama’s bosom.
Such as it is.
TRex @ 55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8nGNbk7oQ
Sugarcubes at Lisner in DC
TRex- okay, OT in a mo, but I have been thinking about the silence on this thread. Silence does have its own powerful dimension. I was reminded of concert I was at long ago in King’s College chapel, Cambridge. I am pretty sure that the last piece was Britten’s War Requiem, tho not 100% sure. Either that, or a Mahler Requiem. But, at the end, there was complete and utter silence. No applause. Just hushed breathing that lasted and lasted. That was the first and still only time I have experienced that audience reaction- but also the only time I’ve heard the particular composition. As if, it would be completely wrong to applaud. You know classical music much much better than I, so perhaps you will know which piece I am referring to.
It is so interesting that here tonight conversation about the Foley case still continues on the earlier thread, whereas usually people just move the discussion right along to the next thread, even if OT. My sense is that people who have read Late Nite have been where you are, some way or another, and simply don’t want to step on the contemplative silence. xxooo
Come on, everybody. Let’s all take a deeeeeeep breath and calm down.
It’s Friday night. We’re still alive. The world is full of music and people who love each other.
More people love each other than hate each other in the world still, I think. Maybe.
We’re all in this dinghy together. Let’s have a little peace between us at least.
TRex @
50
my first – the LA Forum, 1975 -
Eric Clapton -
with Carlos Santana as the “opener”….
i can’t find the words…..
Sharkbabe @ 59
Oh, you biiiiiitch. I always wanted to see the Sugarcubes.
Sigh.
I’ve never seen Bjork either.
Summer of 1986, I had tickets to the Smiths and Eurythmics.
Both shows were cancelled. I was already a teenage goth. At that point I sank into the murk altogether.
TRex:
I can easily imagine how ethereal Elissa may have been singing and living. Your words bring her back to life. I wish I would have known her. May she rest in peace.
Okay, OT.
My best concert ever- and the first I ever went to- Jim Morrison and the Doors at the Hollywood Bowl. His leather pants were really quite riveting. Most memorable.
*composing self* argh, thanks T-mama – dinosaur bosom probably almost as good as a girl
TRex @ 63
And from that murk and ooze, arose a Great and Terrible Creature…
Titanyum @ 64
Oh, in life, Elissa wasn’t ethereal at all. She was a freakin spitfire. Fifty feet of woman in a five foot dress.
One of the best for me was years ago at Merriweather Post Pavillion in Md. Delaney and Bonnie, Little Feat, Paul Butterfield Blues Band and Bonnie Raitt, separately then together in one big rockemsockem blues rumble. Wow.
” She is a singer’s singer”
Sorry; no she’s not. She might touch your emotions, and that’s a good thing, but she’s not a singer’s singer.
That’s like saying Carlos Santana is a guitar player’s guitar player.
Mommybrain @ 69
Bonnie Raitt makes me believe in reincarnation. She’s, like, such an old black man.
Does that make sense?
She Kokomo you, baby.
Smiths, period.
There’s the Beatles and there’s the Smiths. Everybody else decent opening act.
Ye gods. I’m out of smokes AGAIN. Back in a bit kids.
Talk amongst y’selves. Here, I’ll pick a topic.
The Christian Right.
Niether Christian nor right.
Discuss.
Sharkbabe @ 73
I fookin’ lurve the Beatles.
TRex @ 74
ewwww!
I’m off to bed before I hear about the fundies – no tales of brimstone (or pages!) before* my bedtime.
*or after
g’night firepups…
Mommybrain @ 69
Damn, that’s a hella wow all right. All that & Little Feat too! Good old Delaney & Bonnie.
Was just out at Merriweather a couple weeks ago for Jon Stewart. He killed of course and the parking lot was Woodstockian.
TRez sez:
I fookin’ lurve the Beatles.
I remember going to see Help at the Tower Theatre om Sacramento when I was twelve. I was baffled but delighted and had a big crush on Paul.
The Sprout fookin’ lurves the Beatles, too.
Kid, you’re gonna run in the family.
Valley Girl @ 65
Saw the Doors my freshman year at RPI. Between the sets a stand-up comedian came out for a few jokes. His name was…. Allen, yeah Woody Allen
TRex, thank you for your post. It is amazing that you can meet a guy, or girl, and you just know that they will go to the mat for you. And I for them. Doesn’t happen often enough.
My daughter(gay) and her best male friend(gay) from college have a relationship like you and your wonderful friend. I love him just as much as my three sons.In fact, he calls me “Pop” and I call him “mi hito.”
Thanks for the snark,wisdom,and compassion.
I don’t know what it is about the DC metro area, Sharkbabe, but the parking lots pretty much everywhere were where all the cool music was happenin’, after hours, so to speak. “Yeah, Woodstockian. Or Bluegrassian.
Saw John Prine and Doug Kershaw at the Blackwater Bluegrass Festival in WV, both so drunk they couldn’t finish the set. Mainly cuz Prine fell off the stage.
Little Feat are a special memory.
My daughter(gay) and her best male friend(gay) from college have a relationship like you and your wonderful friend. I love him just as much as my three sons.In fact, he calls me “Pop” and I call him “mi hito.”
Those are the real family values.
So many concerts over so many years!
1982: The Grateful Dead, in a pasture in Veneta, Oregon, with Robert Cray opening.
1982: Roxy Music, Universal Ampitheater. The encore of “Like a Hurricane/Jealous Guy” brought me to tears.
1984: Sir Simon Rattle conducting Mahler’s “Das Lied von der Erde.” The Dorothy Chandler Pavillion shook from the percussion.
1985: King Sunny Ade and Black Uhuru, Portland, Oregon. Six hours of non-stop dancing. My shirt, underwear, and shorts were all soaked through with sweat. Who knew so many staid Oregonians could dance?
1999: Caetano Veloso, Warner Theater. I cried tears of joy when I heard “How Beautiful Could a Being Be?”
2005: Brazilian Girls, 930 Club. Ragged and funky and beautiful and fearless — Sabina Sciubba is an amazing performer, and by the end of the show had half of the audience dancing with her and the band on stage.
Mommybrain @ 78
OMG…. I was there too!
The really special thing is when one of the NBA games by boyfriend was televising followed the Paul McCartny Tour…. The were settup for the game while they were setting up the concert….he recorded Paul practicing for my birthday. Came out of a meeting and found the VM of Paul singing…
Valley Girl @ 65
Now that’s some shit
Hugs TRex. I was trying to comment but kept erasing what I wrote. It’s just hard to say anything after reading that.
Best concert…
Stones in 1972 or 73, with Stevie Wonder I think, OR Emmylou Harris and the first band was Asleep at the Wheel. Oh what a hard choice!
I’ve been giving some thought to changing my screen name, since the old first initial-last name doesn’t reflect who I am or how I feel about the world.The fact that we’re on a music themed thread has crystallized things for me. When I get depressed I often break out the music that I grew up with and with the debacle of the torture bill, I needed some comfort. The album I put on was Quadrophenia(the ultimate teen angst album) and one of the cut pretty much summed up how I feel about the way our world is shaping up to be. Here it is.
When a man is running from his boss
Who hold a gun that fires “cost”
And people die from being cold
Or left alone because they’re old
And bombs are dropped on fighting cats
And children’s dreams are run with rats
If you complain you disappear
Just like the lesbians and queers
No one can love without the grace
Of some unseen and distant face
And you get beaten up by blacks
Who though they worked still got the sack
And when your soul tells you to hide
Your very right to die denied
And in the battle on the streets
You fight computers and receipts
And when a man is trying to change
But only causes further pain
You realize that all along
Something in us going wrong
You stop dancing.
So from this point on, I refuse to dance and I am adopting Helpless Dancer for my screen name. Providing of course, that I can get the site to forget my old one.
Paul is my favorite Beatle.
I live in a world of John lovers, but for me it’s Paul, Paul, Paul.
Let’s all get up and dance to a song,
That was a hit before your mother was born…
The man had a way with a melody.
Recent concerts – the first time I saw Ladysmith Black Mombazo at Caltech. OMG, transporting harmonies. Can you feel the love?
Speaking of transporting, the Tallis Scholars at the Ambassador Auditorium in Pasadena, an amazing venue, world class acoustics, lush building materials imported from all over the world, built by that old fundie Garner Ted Armstrong. Or was it his dad? Talk about your authoritarian leanings…
and more OT- TRex- thanks for indulging me the other eve on late nite when I so frustrated about the fact that my new BellSouth DSL “installation” was causing me hell. Installation by a BellSouth professional that is. It did not work.
Spent 6 hours on the phone with various “technical support” people trying to figure out what was wrong- none of them in the US, mind you- and despite their best efforts, every time I did something they suggested to fix the problem, all got worse.
Particularly what pissed me off was the condescending tone of some of the reps.- as if I was some kind of idiot. Ended up exploding at the next guy I got on the help line (Costa Rican it turned out) who asked me what kind of modem I had- I told him- and he said “are you sure?” Having just hung up on an incredibly condescending upper caste Indian (no racism intended here- but that is a “type”)- I went off the rails.
As in- “why the f*ck did you just ask me if I was sure about what kind of modem I have? I can read. Don’t be so f*cking condescending… etc. Actually the Costa Rican guy turned out to be okay, once we got past that difficult moment.
He especially warmed up after I asked where he was (Costa Rica) and I said “for the record, I would like you to know that I hate the Bush regime”, and also I mentioned that I knew that Costa Rica was unique in not having an army. Alas, he couldn’t help me figure out my DSL problem.
Things got even worse, when I couldn’t even get pages to load on dial-up. Truly fucked. Finally, after reporting a possible phone line problem, the local rep referred me once again to DSL help. The guy I got (also condescending male) actually gave me some good advice. “Now, what I am going to do is to restore your computer to an earlier time.” I said “you are going to do this? What do you have, magical powers or something? You mean, I am going to restore my computer…” Okay… he conceded that one.
Okay, restored the computer, and f*ing installed DSL using the BellSouth disk that the “installer” left behind in my CD drive. Works just fine, now, thank you very much.
Sorry for the long and OT rant, but this has been such a frustrating experience.
…the Tallis Scholars at the Ambassador Auditorium in Pasadena…
Ooooooh. I love Tallis.
Do you know if they sang “Spem in Alium”?
Mommybrain @ 69
Wow. That would have been with Lowell George. Makes me shiver.
OK, now I’m really date myself, then I need to go to bed.
First concert-1956,Oklahoma City Civic Center. Elvis Presley. I took a girl from a different high school. I was so proud that she didn’t yell and scream and have an orgasm like the girls 3 rows in front of us. All from my school.
Mommybrain @ 81
HAHAHA – John Prine a national treasure – never will forget him at Constitution Hall w/Bill & Taffy, closing the show together with “Thank God for Marijuana”
Little Feat – ok, I’ll put em up there with the Smiths
Test, Test 2,3 Can you hear me in the back?
The best concert I ever attended was the outdoor Midwest Rock Festival, July 25 1969 at the Wisconsin State Fairgrounds, West Allis, Milwaukee.
The “Wowsa!!!” Headliners included:
Led Zepplelin
Blind Faith
Delaney, Bonnie & Friends
Jeff Beck
Johnny Winters
John Mayall
Joe Cocker & the Grease Band
Jethro Tull
Here’s a poster for the concert.
We thought about driving on to Woodstock, but I think after 3 days of being spaced out, we thought home back in St. Paul was the smarter choice. *g*
Best concert: Jimi at Oakland Coloseum, opening was Cat Mama and a band known at the time as Chicago Transit Authority (had to change the name and settled on just Chicago).
April, 1969
Helpless Dancer @ 95
Loud and clear!
Sorry you’re having such a tough time with your DSL, VG. I wish I knew what to tell you.
TRex- no, no… read to the end of my comment.. I fixed it myself. It works fine now!!!!
TRex @ 99
No, she’s all better now!
TRex, I don’t remember. Just remember the hair on my arms and neck standing on end pretty much all night. They didn’t all stand in a chorale clump to sing. They stood in groups, some stage right, some in the rear, the rest center stage. It was the most heavenly sound I’ve experienced.
Except for that one night I heard the Lost Chord.
And, once again, thanks to TRex and the community for indulging me with helpful hints and moral support during my DSL difficulties.
TRex @ 88
Also had a way with a bass guitar.
Huge thing of Beatle sublimeness was their two voices, both separately and how perfectly they blended. Paul not only among greatest writers/melodists of 20th c., but also greatest white soul singer (she’s a woman etc etc etc). John no slouch either (I want you etc etc etc)
Since my best concert comment poofed (Jimi, Oakland, April 1969), I suppose the tubes want me to talk about my first concert: Beatles, Candlestick, 40 years ago this summer
For all you Tubes fans, they play every Halloween 3 miles down the hill from me at the infamous (and allegedly haunted) Brookdale Lodge. White Punks On Dope on Halloween in a haunted hotel in the Santa Cruz mts is an experience one must physically experience.
hufNpuf @ 93
What a great memory that must be!
Sharkbabe, I can’t admit out loud here that I loved Bill and Taffy. They get booed or something by those of superiour musical taste.
I used to work at a hippie emporium in Annandale called The Rainbow Tree. Bill and Taffy, Emmy Lou Harris, one of the guys from Asleep at the Wheel, all were regulars.
One time the power went out in a storm while Bill and Taffy were there. There were only a few other customers and us employees and they sang a few tunes for us. Afternoon delight and rhythm and blues, as I remember.
This thread is like this night when a friend and I were going to go meet our other friends for margeritas at this Mexican place, but we got there and saw how loud and hideously crowded it was, we didn’t even get out of the car. We drove to this Japanese place where they were really slow, so they let us have one of those little tiny alcoves where you sit on the floor and there’s a curtain, so it’s private.
It was great. Intimate. Peaceful.
In re: concerts, from a blog piece I did early in ‘05:
Top 5 Live Musical Experiences
1. The Beatles, August 28, 1965, Balboa Stadium, San Diego, CA
During these few years, everything was new. Kids today won’t understand that. This was when rock was being defined, fine tuned, & refined. Every day brought sounds never heard before. Most of them started with these guys. Screaming girls, and an energy in a moment of history never to be seen again. Thrilling, yet somehow sad. Those were the days.
2. Buffalo Springfield, Spring, 1968, The Purple Haze, Riverside, CA
My band, The Shades Of Time, opened for them. What a thrill, hanging out backstage with guys we had seen on TV. Only drag was, my band didn’t have a lot of original material yet, and we knew almost all of their first album. Needless to say, we played other stuff.
3. Vanilla Fudge, Spanky & Our Gang, opening for The Bee Gees, Spring 1968, Anaheim COnvention Center, Anaheim, CA
The BeeGees with an orchestra touring on their first album were pretty amazing, years before Saturday Night Fever. But the reason for going to this show was Vanilla Fudge. Histrionic, overwrought, too complex, yet knock you back in your seats stunning in their intensity. Most noted for their outrageous takes on Motown chestnuts (You Keep Me Hangin’ On), they were truly original, and blew the roof off the joint.
4. Jimi Hendrix Experience, Spring 1969, Swing Auditorium, San Bernardino, CA
Every rock guitarist ever since owes his/her entire existance to this man.
5. Big Brother & The Holding Company, feat. Janis Joplin, Spring, 1968, Swing Auditorium, San Bernardino, CA
I’ll never forget when she sang her first note. I looked at my friend (and bass player in my band), he looked at me, our jaws dropped, and stayed there. Transcendental music experience.
Honorable mention:
Chicago Transit Authority, Fall 1968, The White Room, Anaheim, CA
On their first pass through LA, they played The Shrine Friday night. My girlfriend saw them, heard them say that they were playing in OC Saturday night, and made me go. In a tiny room, on a stage 12 inches high, horns blasting, they created a sound totally new at the time. This was the Chicago of “25 or 6 to 4″, not “Color My World.” This was the Chicago of Terry Kath, and Peter Cetera before anyone told him he was a star. This was a bunch of guys living in a ratty house in Hollywood, playing their asses off, making new music.
The Doors, Spring 1968, Swing Auditorium, San Bernardino, CA
Hearing “Light My Fire” live was so much better than the record.
Help, I’m in moderation, I think
Me too, Steve. The toobz are sensitive tonight.
Mad Dogs- thanks for reading my rant til the end. Yes, all better now. Just trying to figure out what to try to extract from BellSouth by way of compensation. Certainly I’m not paying the $100 it cost to have someone come to install. If I had known how easy it was, I would have done the “self-install” option from the get-go.
In a way, I feel sorry for the “expert” who did the initial installation- because he may not have been properly trained. Or, he was an idiot. But, I think not, or not entirely so, bec. we got into politics (well I got into politics) at some point … as I have a wont to do, and he said “it’s going to take years to undo the damage that Bush has done”.
Steve and Suzanne, refresh.
Refresh, refresh, refresh. I’ve sprung you!
No you didn’t, I did!
Hi firepups,
Woke up at 2 a.m. after an early evening crash [tough week at work, and still a bit more to finish up today].
“I read the news today, oh boy.” The Foley scandal just might bring down the corrupt Republican House leadership. I’m disgusted that it will be the sex with teens scandal that does it and not public dismay over the government authorizing torture in our names. But I quibble over means. The end–getting rid of those maggots–is what matters.
TRex, let me please express again my deep condolences for your loss. I write for a living. But the hardest writing I’ve ever had to do was to write eulogies for my grandmother [2000] and my father [2003]. Even if there’s time between death and the memorial service, as there was for my grandmother, the minute I sat down to write about her, I was transported back to the moment I first heard about her death, and I was grieving again as I did then.
Death and loss are something we all face. Sharing memories of a person at a service will help everyone who is grieving. Rest in peace, Elissa, and may your friends and family find peace in their remembrances of you.
SteveAudio @ 108
Da Fudge!
;>)
Now sprung, for all you Tubes fans, the last part is for you. Suzanne @
105
njprogressive @ 116
You know, I don’t like to have to write a eulogy, but if somebody’s going to do that for someone I love, I would want it to be me. I’m not sure I would trust anyone else with the job.
I sure didn’t spring either of you. But, as far as I can determine, for some reason, the automod filter snags comments that are really long- actually ones that have several paragraphs, is what I think. Alas, I don’t see any easy way to fix this problem, as it seems to be something that is built into WordPress.
TRex you made me cry.
Thanks, VG. I’ll try to be shorter.
Mommybrain, did you or anybody here experience Danny Gatton at the Childe Harold in the Liz Meyer and Friends days?
Once I discovered him I spent night after night there, every single time felt life-changing. Absolute most thrilling astonishing live musician ever. And a truly sweet, gracious gentleman. Gave me a private lesson once, boy I felt like I was hangin with Jesus and JS Bach.
Valley Girl @ 112
You are so welcome! Tis a totally different set of Tubes when you go from dial-up to high-speed, isn’t it?
As for the “expert” that arrives at your door, I’ve over 25 years in computing (and support over 20K users worldwide) and to see some of the idiots that ISPs send out just floors me.
I shouldn’t be so hard on them because most of them came from the “network” side of Internet world.
That’s totally different technology than the PC side of the Internet, and while these folks can talk all day about “packet loss” and other network stuff, they rarely are more than users themselves when it comes to the computer itself.
Good to hear you cookin’ now!
Suzanne @ 121
Actually, I don’t see a comment from you that is particularly long, tho SteveAudio’s was. So, I am puzzled as to why yours got snagged. How’s life in BC?
Steve @ 120
My work here is done.
You know, when people tell you, “Oh, that was so funny! You made me laugh until I had the hiccups”, you know, that’s cool.
But when someone says, “You made me cry”? That means I really hit the mark. To be able to reach in and touch the heart, that’s what every artist really lives for.
sharkbabe — when did the childe harold feature live music?
sharkbabe, no I didn’t. I spent my time in VA and georgetown (cellar door). Did get to see Tom Waits when he was still a baby. Roberta Flack. Country Gentlemen. Leo Kottke. Not Danny Gatton.
VG, getting the little cabin … make that cottage by the creek in the redwoods ready to sell :(
SteveAudio 108 – it’s hard to convey to our juniors just how incredible the Beatles were to the world’s ears – I’ll never forget the excitement of Beatlemania, of my sister coming home with Meet the Beatles and dropping the needle on I Wanna Hold Your Hand – such an indescribable new difference and freshness, not a single person on earth could resist it. Biggest nonwar thing to sweep the earth in my life. Just music and joy and they had smarts and humor. What a great thing to happen to a twelve-year-old.
Says a whole lot to me about both of you. We must be in the moment no matter the circumstances. So few are capable of that for such a small amount of time.
How does one select from a lifetime of live music?
My first The Who and Aerosmith Houston Astro Dome bicentennial, BB King and John Lee Hooker Palo Soleri Amphitheater Santa Fe, NM. Pat Metheny Group Greek Theatre Berkeley, Neil Young with Booker T and the MG’s Warfield SF, Ella Fitzgerald Opera House SF, Bobby McFerrin a cappella in my shop on Haight Street one morning over coffee and a new tuxedo, U2 downtown SF on a sunny afternoon. Van Morrison , David Bromberg Band, JJ Cale shows at Great American Music Hall SF, Bill Grahams Memorial in the Polo Fields of Golden Gate Park. Rebirth Brass Band on the streets of New Orleans, Preservation Jazz Hall, Parliament, Maceo, Fela, Bob Dylan, Talking Heads, Lou Reed, Simply Red, just random favorites off the top of my head. I have over three hundred ticket stubs and another eighty dead tickets, not counting years of bars and ushering gigs around the bay area. Does Pope John Paul or Nelson Mandela count as a concert? *s* of course
Now listening to Bob Dylans (new) Modern Times, another classic.
I heart Sharkbabe! her rant and reminding me of the Sugarcubes who were exceptional live!
Little Feat played here a couple of weeks ago with Dr. John the night before. The Feat Guitarist lives here so we have a feat fests. Anni defranco and the Indigo Girls were a recent fantastic show as well.
Mommybrain @ 127
Ohhhhhh, Roberta Flack. That’s sacred music in my family.
When my mom still sang in clubs, she sang a bunch of Roberta Flack in her set. “Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?”, “The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face”.
God. Is it any wonder I turned out gay? How my brother escaped is beyond me.
Mad Dogs- it was an “interesting” experience on several levels. Part of what got to me was the computer-like android tone of the “help” people I got on the phone. I finally figured out that they were reading from a script- many repeated phrases- and when I heard a second time “now we’re going to open your computer in safe mode” I said, “No, I’ve done that before, it is a pain, and it’s not going to help.” So, the next rep I spoke to read me back part of the “notes”. He said- “the previous rep said that you are not comfortable going into safe mode”. I have decided that the root problem is that the initial installer did not actually complete the installation, consistent with the fact that he left his “Bell South University” CD behind.
As for a learning experience- I did hang up on the totally condescending Indian guy, and called again to get another rep. I needed to be reminded of that tactic. Original idea came from my dealings with Delta airline personnel over the years. I will spare you the details, but different reps. tell you different things on the phone- as in “yes, you can do that” or “no, you can’t do that”. I finally figured out that instead of arguing with a “no”, the best thing to do was say “thank you”, hang up, and keep calling until I got one who said “yes”.
Sorry folks, OT but the WaPo changed their article on the Boehner-Hastert exchange–they’ve dropped Boehner saying Hastert told him “we’re taking care of it.” I just emailed the writers asking why they changed it, and if Boehner said Hastert said that, or not.
I’m sort of shocked.
Good catch chisholm
chisholm @ 132
Doesn’t matter. They’re going down in flames. They’re now the Torture and Molestation Party from now until November. Halleluia and pass the biscuits.
Suzanne @ 128
oohh Suzanne- let me know when it goes on the market. If I am reading you correctly. Gotta confess, tho, I am mostly speaking from “fantasy land”. I am so sick of living in the South, and Santa Cruz is the home of my heart. I decided to go to grad school at UCSC when I first saw the redwoods on Hwy. 9. But, I have a tenured job here, and I don’t know what the heck I’d do to support myself in BC.
chisholm @ 132
TalkingPointsMemo has this
From WaPo …
House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) told The Washington Post last night that he had learned this spring of some “contact” between Foley and a 16-year-old page. Boehner said he told House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), and that Hastert assured him “we’re taking care of it.”
From Roll Call (sub.req.) …
Boehner strongly denied media reports late Friday night that he had informed Hastert of the allegations, saying “That is not true.”
Speaks for itself.
GOP=*FOOMF!*
Party in flames.
TRex forever!
This asteroid missed our future NPR anchor and hit the most anal retentive Speaker of the House in the history of this country – right up his sphincter.
chisholm @ 133
Chisholm- probably the earlier version is available via Nexis- Lexis. I have access to this, if needs be.
scory 126 – roughly through the seventies. springsteen even played there, they still have a sandwich named after him. emmylou was a regular, boy did she not suffer drunks talkin while she played either, chewed out my friend jane once. but liz and danny & crew were my addiction. Liz lives in Haarlem Netherlands now but still plays and hits DC for a gig every once in a while. Danny of course is no longer with us.
Whenever I go by the Childe Harold it kills me that it’s just a regular boring restaurant anymore. It’s like the Cotton Club or the Blue Note ceasing to be music places and only dishing burgers. All wrong.
TRex, thanks for letting us all know about her, she is one of my favorite new artists. Make it a good eulogy.
sharkbabe@142 –
thanks much. I got to Washington about a decade too late to have known abou the Childe Harold as a music venue. I’ve often wondered how the Springsteen sandwich made it to the menu, and you’ve explained it. and yes, it’s so wrong for a place like the harold to be so mediocre.
yeah, I’m confident it’s going to be cached somewhere, but I am most curious to hear the story behind the change–they’ve taken the most damning line out of the piece at what appears to be Boehner’s behest.
Did the guy say it or not? And if he didn’t where did quote come from? And if he called back to ask them to retract that, that’s a story there in itself.
Valley Girl @ 139
Yeah, you better grab that, VG.
Sounds like they’re trying to shield Hastert from criminal liability.
TRex… am I invisible tonight?
katymine @ 147
I sure hope not, or else I’m seeing things. *g*
katymine @ 145
Hi, hon!
Mad Dogs @
96
Speaking of Jethro Tull, I saw them in Honolulu not much before I got out of the army, in the spring of 1970. I had the loan of a load of Nikon equipment and came prepared to shoot a lot of non-flash pictures, and at the time, someone had just developed a process to push Ektachrome well past its normal rating. Did about four rolls of film during the evening–lots of pictures with starry glints from the backlighting off of Ian Anderson’s flute, etc.
It was the strangest evening. The premier venue in town was the Civic Center (would seat about 15,000), but someone had booked them into the Arena. The regular event there were the Friday night wrestling matches, so they got to play up on the elevated mat, with the stanchions and ropes removed.
There were some folding chairs down on the flat, but most people were seated on wooden roll-out gymnasium bleachers. As the show started, it turned out that the police had undercover people throughout the audience, and as soon as someone fired up a joint, there would be a BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! as a couple of undercover cops in Hawaiian shirts and thick-soled shoes ran down the wooden bleachers after the unfortunate perpetrator. This usually got the band’s attention, but they never stopped playing.
The sound man was quite stoned on something or other (I was about three rows away from the mixer board and he did look a bit droopy), and, more than once, Ian Anderson would stop in mid-knee twirl and say, “Uh, Nigel. Oh, Niiiigel. The monitors go up on the loud songs, and go down on the soft songs… turn the bloody things down.”
Never did get to see the pictures. First night home, car parked in front of my parents’ house, someone broke in and stole the bag with the film….
Just wanted to know….Hi ya … took the night off and just checking in…
Another horrible work week and trying to unwind..
HI TRex…. Big Hug for ya {{{{{{TRex}}}}}}}
Yesterday pretty much spun me out of control. Glad to see that the true colors of the ReThugs are finally being revealed…. It is like the story with the King with no clothes…. FINALLY
When I was 8, I went to a birthday party for a classmate, Taffy Ryder. Sunday evening, February 9, 1964. Yup, after a nice supper and cake & ice cream, 12 or so third-graders were watching the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. Pretty amazing. And good golly, the boys were just so cute! Remember how which Beatle you liked best was a question on every “know yourself” pop-psychology quiz in magazines?
And the absolute joy in their films, “Hard Days Night” and “Help!”
Going to see live performers has always been wonderful, but loved the magic of the Beatles, in any medium.
VG, should be listing it within the next week :(
Leo Kottke – boy I devoured his records too – never saw him though. Roberta Flack another DC homeslice, always inseparable from Mr. Henry’s Cap Hill in my mind, can’t walk by the place without thinkin of her. She was a neighbor in Alexandria VA too, somehow I actually hung out in her house once. Regular house but gold records on the walls n stuff like you’d expect.
katymine @
147
Can’t see you from here, katymine, but TRex and the rest of us missed a great sublimal reference here on Foley/Hastert. At # 90, Valley Girls said (in passing):
“Things got even worse, when I couldn’t even get pages to load on dial-up. Truly fucked.”
She was talking about getting her DSL working at home and her immense frustrations, but I could almost imagine that quote being from an e-mail from Hastert to Abramoff, ccd to Foley and DeLay….
we are truly entering a new alternative universe between now and the general election.
Damn, TRex, your words are a living testament to the beautiful soul that is Elissa, and she still lives in your words and in your heart and your mind. That she found a place there, and apparently among countless others, is her life ever after. We should all be blessed enough as to not go quietly into the night alone, but dancing and singing with friends and family.
And, incidentally, thanks for the Tori video. I had no idea. I’d heard her name bantered around so often on entertainment venues that I thought her to be a Britney equivalent. BOY! Was I wrong!
Amazing concert:
Keith Jarrett, Carnegie Hall, September 26, 2005. Just released on CD. Mr. NJ Progressive and I were there. Just amazing.
It’s truly amazing how fresh A Hard Day’s Night still is.
hi katymine!
yep scory
OK goodnight beautifuls, thanks for the great thread Trex, I am still beside myself over Bushco war criminal nation but thanks for the nice music/civilization break.
Oh and – 16 Magazine!
Sharkbabe @
154
I saw Kottke at the most unlikely venue of the Calvin College fieldhouse in the late `70s. Good show, but a subdued crowd. I love his version of the Byrds’ “Eight Miles High” and when he launched into that, I started clapping. I was the only one….
Ed*ard Teller I am glad you explained…. sure could jump to conclusions…
Well kids, AZ is at it again with radical Propositions attacking undocumented workers… Get this… English as the offical language of AZ but you can use other languages to meet Federal guidelines BUT if you feel you are damaged by the state using other languages you can get damages.
TRex @ 146
Lexis/Nexis doesn’t have that story posted yet, all they have is a story from 9/29 about Foley’s opponent calling for an investigation. The Boehner/Hastert story must be in the 9/30 edition and that isn’t posted yet. I’ll check in the morning.
Another story that will date me…. when I was a kid growing up here in AZ, my family would drive into Phoenix for shopping about once a month or so… We would stop at a Mexican Restaurant that we all liked and sometimes there would be a guy there playing his guitar and singing songs. I had no idea who he was and the others who would join in…
It was years later as an adult when I saw him on TeeVee…. Had no idea I was getting a concert in a Taverna by Marty Robbins.
Okay, kids, I’m off to bed.
Happy Saturday.
I’ll be seeing you all on Sunday night.
G’night!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01574.html
TalkingPointsMemo
House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) told The Washington Post last night that he had learned this spring of some “contact” between Foley and a 16-year-old page. Boehner said he told House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), and that Hastert assured him “we’re taking care of it.”
ET- as they say here (learned FDL lingo)- you funny. Thanks for following my DSL travails.
Actually, I just did a bit of switching cables around, and went on dial-up to my U to check for the L/N versions of WaPo Foley Boenher Hastert story. As neurophius said above, it isn’t posted yet, as I just discovered. Now that I have magnificent DSL, the only way that I can get to my U access for L/N is to go on dial-up. That only increases the pain at this point, so, Neuophius, can I leave it to you to check this out? That would be loverly.
Firepups:
Over dinner tonight, Mr. NJ Progressive told me that he was so disgusted by the torture bill, and so ashamed that both of NJ’s Democratic senators voted for it, that it was a deal-breaker for him. He wouldn’t be able to vote for Menendez. And he told me that if he thought our household finances could stand it, he would take the time remaining in the campaign to go protest Menendez’s vote at every in state campaign stop he could track down. His protest: to stand on a wood box, with wires coming from his hands, wearing a black pointed hood and a black drape, a la Abu Ghraib, with a sign saying “Senator Menendez voted for this.”
I told him I was proud of him. I thought it was a great piece of political theatre. And I’ll help him, by making the hood and drape and the sign. And we agreed he’d go to some Menendez campaign stops [tho’ he won’t do it full time between now and November 7–our household finances demand that he do some work between now and Election Day].
And he knows that I’ll be voting for Menendez in spite of the torture bill.
What do the folks here at the ‘Lake think of this as a political protest? Is it something that could be done by people in other states, protesting Republicans and Democrats alike?
TRex–
One of the things to remember this Sunday is this: while we too often think that the good die too young, the greater sin and lost opportunity is for someone to die before realizing their potential or finding their talents, personally and professionally.
It sounds as if your friend attained some understanding of both of those things. After all, she affected you in profound ways, yes?
In Joyce Cary’s The Horse’s Mouth, Gulley Jimson, trying to explain art to an unschooled friend says, “a moment of enlightenment is worth a million years of know-nothing.” His friend says, “who lives a million years?” Gulley replies, “a million people every twelve months.”
Celebrate understanding and enlightenment and realization.
Cheers.
montag- just released a comment from you in mod. As far as I can tell “too many paragraphs” is some kind of “feature” built into WP that automatically snags such comments into automod. What a pain.
njprogressive I think it is a great idea but then I think of the consequences if Menendez loses. We need a majority right now, more than anything.
My thought is get a majority and then we can cull the herd afterwards. When more Dems win, more will run because they know they will have a chance, more money will be in our favor for campaigns…etc…
I feel your pain in a way….. My Senators voted for it too but then they are Repugs…Kyl and McCain… ya know..
Valley Girl @ 168
Thanks. We on the outside never quite know what’s up with the inner intricacies of artificial traps. :)
Cheers.
montag @ 169
We on the inside sometimes don’t know either!!! But, as this has happened several times of late, that is the only explanation I can come up with. I will raise the issue. Not to say that this will get anywhere, but I’ll try.
NJ Pro – No matter which way y’all vote the theater idea is fabulous! Please take photo’s for us! My gawd, we have torture for political theater on our soil. I am still adjusting to this notion. *sigh*
Thanks, VG, for all you do. I do appreciate you and all the mods hard work.
p.s. Montag- there is no reason that I can see from the content of your post other than length/ paragraph # that it would have gotten snagged. Same with other posts that have been routed to moderation automatically.
Suzanne @ 173
I agree… So excited to VG back at the lake
katymine,
I just read a great piece by Dahlia Lithwick over at Slate, about the Abu Ghraib photos, and how they have morphed from shame to law.
My question to the folks here at FDL is whether this would be a good protest form for people to use to protest Republicans? Sort of the torture version of “the Kiss” float that worked so well in the Connecticut primary.
Valley Girl @ 164
You can and I will. I will post something Saturday afternoon if I find it. I am afraid, however, that L/N may only post the “final” edition of the paper, which may not include the phrase of interest…there may be other ways to search the Web for the original, I don’t know anything about caches, etc.
VG, that sounds like some lousy DSL you have, if you can only connect to your U. by dial-up. I have cable and I have no such problem.
I’ll see what I can find tomorrow. Good night, all.
Suzanne, katymine- thanks so much for the kind comments. They do boost my spirit. Actually, I am not doing full time duty as a moderator right now, because my real life job has too many demands. I just “moderate” when I am online reading some (not all FDL articles), as I can. Otherwise, you are in good hands via other mods. But kinds words are always appreciated.
Suzanne- if you have the time, and are willing to do so, could you email me the listing for your BC place- just so I can dream, and eat my heart out? email addy is one that I don’t check very often- but use for FDL purposes. tenureransom@hotmail.com xxoo
njprogressive @ 176
Actually I did this very thing. I took this pdf and printed it on 4×6 blank index cards and addressed to Kyl & McCain. I printed over 100 and took them to the PDA meeting Monday and will hand them out next week at the DFA meeting. My situation is with Kyl who has wanted to distroy habeas corpus for years and Turncoat McCain who stands for nothing.
http://agonist.org/annex/torture.postcard.pdf
Last year just before Memorial Day the senate voted down the Murray Amendment which would increase funding for Vets, I was so pissed at Kyl for voting it down that I created a letter with the image of one of “Support the troops” ribbon on it and a list of All his votes against the Vets & Military… It is my estimate that Kyl received around 500 of those letters, handed out over 100 at a Wesley Clark event alone. Since that, Kyl had to put up a page to his website where he lies about all the good things he does for the military. One of the VA doctors took a copy and was handing them out at the VA hospital for everyone to send it. The sweetest thing was an email I received from a mother in Tuscon whose son was in Iraq, she thanked me so much for doing it.
Will do VG. Email me anytime at ten67x at aohell dot com for a redwood fix.
neurophius- it’s not a DSL problem. When I log on to L/N via dial-up at my U (from home), I have to use the U dial-up, because it automatically recognizes me as a valid user. It’s a password problem.
Suzanne @ 179
aohell!!! As I said to ET earlier, you funny. (Phrase learned at FDL). Do you actually have DSL in your neck of the woods?
VG, they just started offering it and cable modem up here in the past couple of months. Before that, just dial-up. Sure was a bummer getting used to dial-up after having cable modem. Haven’t switched over since I’m selling.
de-lurking for the 2nd time, how can i resist concerts? First of all, inadequate condolences to T-Rex re Elissa. I’ve lost friends, family, coworkers thru the years, and it hurts. Precious, beautiful lives that have enriched us. I like to think that my heart is larger for having known these people, and the beauty of T-Rex’s heart shines in the memories he shares of Elissa.
So we honor her about talking about music! My first ever concert in high school, up to the big sin city Minneapolis with girlfriends from our small Wisconsin town. I didn’t want to go at first because the headliner was a totally lame group called Peter’s Hermits or some such thing. Changed my mind when I heard that one of the opening acts was some new group called the Who, with some weirdo who smashed his guitar on stage. It was great! So was the other opener, Moody Blues if I remember right.
First year of college, Beloit College Folk & Blues Festival. So many greats over several days. 1970? A year or two later, Leo Kottke at Beloit, he was really drunk and started telling stories. I’ve never laughed so hard in my life.
Stevie Ray Vaughn, mid-80’s Minneapolis. Awesome.
The last decade it’s been all home concerts, a grassroots thing. Personal faves, Tim Sparks, Pat Donohue, Peter Ostroushko, seeing any of those three in someone’s living room is not to be missed.
Thank all of you regular FDL-ers for giving us lurkers an oasis in the desert.
Nite all. Don’t know what it is about TRex’s posts, but they always turn me into a nite owl, which I most decidedly am not otherwise.
NewDealFarmGrrrlll @ 184
Umm, could that have been Herman’s Hermits? :)
NDFG, I am so jealous. Never got to see Stevie Ray.
Welcome to the lake. See, that second post wasn’t as hard as the first one was. (laughing)
TRex’s late nite posts are what usually tempt me out of my lurker mode.
Valley Girl @ 185
Yikes…. its THAT late?
BTW Suzanne where are you?
nite, VG. Sleep well
katymine, I am in the Santa Cruz, CA area. Small town in the mountains called Boulder Creek.
Used to live in King City, my father worked for the Army at Hunter Legget and we used to go over to the base at Montery.
I do understand about the internet connection. My parents now live in a small town on the Oregon coast and they are just getting high speed put in the area.
Then you know the area. I’m up Highway 9, 13 miles east of Santa Cruz city limits. Near Big Basin State Park.
Good night katymine, suzanne & others
heading back to bed, need more sleep
hey all – checking in very late and just for a moment…
Bless you, Sweet TRex…
and good night!
I’m headed to bed too. Nite all and sweet dreams.
montag @ 185
You’re right! Sheesh…too many drugs in college ruined my long-term memory :)
NewDealFarmGrrrlll @ 196
Not to fear… even without drugs, they were eminently forgettable. :)
It has been years since I was up there but yes, we used to drive over and do deep sea fishing and get abalone.
Nite NJPRO, I think I am going to do the same…. Miss Dog will be at the door for breakfast even if it is Saturday.
Thanks for the welcome, Suzanne. One of my sisters lived in Aptos for a while, enjoyed visiting her in that area. Now she’s in Antioch. Not as nice.
Time for bed for me as well, have to go in to work tomorrow. Thanks to all for making my first lengthy foray into the lake enjoyable.
Good morning FDL! I’ve got the coffe brewing. Lordy, Montag, Herman’s Hermits weren’t forgettable, they were my some of my favorites, to sing, at Karaoke. Fun music.
(My favorite song: “I know a gal in Kalamazoo” I won $50 singing that)
TRex lovely post. Thank you.
G’ morning beard5,
I tried to fall back asleep, but couldn’t. It’s pretty nippy this morning, lows in the mid 40s.
No thanks on the coffee, unless it’s decaf. How ’bout some herb tea?
Please take a look at a post I did aways back up thread, at 166. I’m interesting in getting some feedback from others here at FDL about an idea Mr. NJ Progressive has…
beard5 @ 201
Ah, well, to each his own. :) But, someone upstream had forgotten them. *shrug*
katymine,
That comment is the first I’ve seen you tonight, I think. The “Am I invisible?” one.
NJprogressive, After the passage of the torture bill, it took me an hour to get over my anger at the dems. A Republican controlled house and senate will only create more laws like this. Ask your husband how Kean would have voted? The democratic primary is the time for changes.
Valley Girl @ 37
What Valley Girl said.
Listening to her beautiful voice and reading your text about both of your voices cheering in the crowd, I cried.
Good Morning old friends and new. Mid 40’s here on the Maine coast, and the day dawns clear for our End the War, Bring the Troops Home gathering for peace and march for justice later at Waterfront Park in Bangor, Maine. After a week such as we have just encountered, there may be a large enough turnout that MSM cannot ignore. I wish for Peace and Justice for one and all.
TREX, Our thoughts will be with you this weekend. Your post was touching and beautifully written.
A sign for the times:
Abu Graib, morphing from horror into law.
Sheesh.
U.S. commander says insurgency in western province of Iraq unlikely to be defeated until U.S. forces leave
from the horse’s mouth…….and of course it also suggests that in other places in Iraq, the US is gaining ascendancy. Umn Humn!
It’s 48 degrees here in Roswell, GA and it’s suppose to be a lovely day. Old sow I sign on early often just to read your comments about peace. Good luck on the march.
Well thankee JPL, sortof feels like this old world needs a few prayers for peace through out the day, doesn’t it? Yes, times for rage and action, for sorrow and humor, but to humble ourselves in the face of creation and ask for mercy and renewal…well, I’m so grateful to have a place to say it. Best to you for the day. Take time in life to enjoy.
Here’s one on the Pelosi/Rangel responses to Chavez that talks of the failures of name-calling and sanctions
My President, Right or Wrong
JPL,
As we discussed whether or not to vote for Menendez, Mr. NJ Progressive explained to me that in 2004 primaries he was looking for a candidate who had not supported going to war in Iraq. That requirement eliminated Kerry, Edwards, and others. Both of us had supported Dean, but then the Dean campaign got trounced–by the media, by the powerbrokers, and, ultimately, by the primary voters who listened to the media and the powerbrokers. So in 2004, Mr. NJ Progressive held his nose and voted for Kerry-Edwards.
At dinner last night he told me that the more he’s thought about the vote, the more he felt it had betrayed his principles. NJ votes blue in presidential elections, and he could have voted for a peace candidate in the general election, for the sake of his conscience, without risking the possibility of electing a Republican radical, like Bush.
He’s been looking into peace activism, checking out different organizations, looking to put his beliefs into wider action. He’s been really interested in the “Peace Pledge,” where you ask candidates to vow no war unless attacked.
He knows it’s a tight race for Senate here in NJ. But voting is an expression of personal dignity and values. And, although I disagree with his actions, I certainly respect his values, as I have anyone here who said that the torture bill was a deal breaker for them.
I listen to Tori when I’m overwhelmed, tangled up, and stressed out.
After the Torture Act passed, I spent some time in music-therapy over at Youtube. It helped, as did the White Russians. During my drunken stay, I stumbled upon a clip of Sinead O’Connor performing “THIS IS A REBEL SONG” at a Peace Prize event in Oslo.
Thought you might be interested, TRex. Your description of Tori Amos reminded me of Sinead and her rebel song. She manages to do “moist, pink overkill”, “clear and bracing”, “loopy and feminine”, and “GET YOUR PUNK ASS OUT HERE, YOU [ENGLISH] BITCH” all at the same time. She even does Tori’s hair ;-)
Here she is without Tori’s hair, doing a cover of Elton John’s “Sacrifice”.
And who could forget “Fight the Real Enemy”? Anybody know how to ‘photoshop’ a moving picture? This clip needs a Bush administration update.
OS, are you still here?
goodmorning all! –
Is NJprogrssive in the house? I read your post at 166 –
Before your husband takes after Menendez, could you please have him read Glen Greenwald? (worthwhile read for everyone — it helped me).
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..lawed.html
I understand the anger and the desire to not vote for the man, but actually working against him is a different step and if the dealbreaker for your sig other is whether a Senator would vote for torture –
Does your beloved husband really think Kean would have voted against torture?
I am Susan. Looks like we have gorgeous day to go out and work for Peace!
Can anyone tell me if this is possible?
I just got an email from a friend who heard that Mike Michaud D-ME in the House has changed his vote from aye to no.
This is what the email says:
I just heard on the radio that he changed his vote today on the bill that came back from the senate.
He said that he spoke with some legal advisors and heard from many of his constituents(surprise!) and he reconsidered his position.
I want to know why he supported the first version of the bill which was even more to the Presidents liking.
He has to go.
I’ve never heard of such a thing. Is it possible?
OS, can you beleive this?? Talk about having it both ways!
NJ, I live in GA and since all politics are local and being realistic I used to be a true independent. However with what is going on with the Bush administration, I try to do what I can in supporting democratic candidates. My vote may not count on election day, but it will be for dems whether it be phone calls or a small amount of money. Kerry wasn’t my first or second choice but his was the first election that I actually sent a chunk of change. I sympathize because character issues are important and if I lived in Cynthia McK’s district that would have been tough. She’s ran a pretty disturbing campaign a few years back against a Jewish repub. Good luck with your decision.
Susan
-
Th final bill will have to be voted on after it returns from conference (probably after the election?) so your Rep. has a chance to change his vote then. Also, the SEnate stuffed a bunch of last minute icky stuff into the bill that actually makes it worse than the original House version.
NJ, One more thing. I voted for Cleland but because of reasons I won’t go into I did not support him actively. I worked against Newt years back and heard a few things that made me uncomfortable at the time about Max. Anyway after seeing the damage Saxby is doing maybe a yard sign in a conservative district would have helped.
Wow, Susan. That is interesting. Of course, I don’t know what can and cannot be done, but what an idea, that a rep would actually listen to the constituents AFTER a vote and then change his mind. Unanswered questions: Did no one else call him beforehand? Does he care more about his job or serving the people?
Hi Imm, thanks for the update on that bill. So this whole thing was to provide divisiveness in the Dem party, eh? They can all change their votes, every one of the GOP or Dems, when the final round comes along. Thanks Karl for another one of your late blooming farts that will dissolve away leaving a field of the dead.
This in no way gives a pass to those in either party who went along with this travesty.
Good morning again FDL, I found myself offline due to a rather long power outage here in the lovely town of Wilton. Rather, on this street in the lovely town of Wilton, apparently another squirrel decided to rest it’s big fluffy tail on the nice warm transformer….
LGF***rd I love Sinead’s version of Sacrifice it makes me cry, it’s so heartbreaking.
NPR whitewash on Foley: He had asked the child for his photo.
Later comment: inappropriate email.
Old Sow @ 226
Well, that is true — but it is just one of the pages.
susan @
218
Generally, when a bill comes out of the House/Senate conference, both houses have to revote it, because it is now a (slightly) different bill. In some cases, the conference bill is exactly the bill of one of the houses, so only the other house has to vote on it. I heard that the Republicans are simply submitting the Senate version of this unspeakable nightmare to House, thereby depriving the Senate of another opportunity to vote on it and possibly filibuster. That’s what I heard or read somewhere, but I can’t remember where.
Old Sow, CNN and Today show are both leading with the Foley story. One has to wonder if his resignation wasn’t timed to hit the airwaves late on Friday.
Thanks imm. Maybe he does plan to vote against it when it comes back. I’m kinda lost on the procedural stuff. I’ve tried searching for more info, but nothing’s coming up.
I sent out a group email the morning after the house vote – Thursday morning (?). Asking folks mostly BH Dems and COA faculty to call Snowe and Collins. I didn’t call Mike’s office before, I just presumed (learned a great lesson there) that he would do the right thing.
But since, I have called several times and yesterday read the oath of office for the house to his staffer Gene, who probably wishes he’d never heard my name.
OS, what do you think of Snowe’s absence?
njprogressive 166
Follow Bill Frist around in that. Or Joe Lieberman. Or Rick Santorum. Or Arlen Specter. Or even Lincoln Chafee, who voted for the current Senate leadership, making it possible to ram this legislation through.
All of them have and will do much more violence to the Constitution than Menendez.
The real problem is the 55 guys who never even considered voting against it. Betrayal hurts more emotionally, but remember that right now, at worst, Menendez is our 56th biggest problem in the Senate.
I’ve said it before: the Administration has made a specialty of putting the American people in a position where they have to choose between “bad” and “worse”. And when faced with that choice, it’s our solemn duty to fight for the bad.
But keep the costume for Lautenberg’s primaries next time around.
OS, I’ve been listening to Headline News (can’t get NPR here, and the speakers are out of order again on the computer (I have issues with soundcards on all my machines, apparently)) And the whole Foley thing sounds like it’s getting played down. There’s no mention that the report of possible trouble was sent to the house leadership nearly a year ago (11 months if I remember correctly) No comment at all on the lack of action of the ethics committee. No comment on the sexual harassment in the workplace issues. And well, compared to some of the information on the web, the comments posted are quite tame. Suggestive, but tame.
And this shining, stellar example of moral rectitude, ethical behavior, and statesman like conduct, was elected during Newt’s Contract with America. How well did that all work out?
(*Hacks up a beardly hairball*)
imm and others,
No, Mr. NJ Progressive doesn’t believe that Baby Kean would have voted against torture. He’s saying what many, many people have said, that he reached his core issue, and that he could not vote for someone who voted for this horrible bill [and in a way that was baldly to spare himself some discomfort on the campaign trail, as was so obvious in Menendez’s vote].
Working for change, and putting in time and money to make it happen, are expressions of our values. Mr. NJ Progressive knows I will be voting for Menendez, even though I am as disgusted by this vote as he is. He will be supporting other Democrats since he cannot bring himself to support this one.
I don’t know, as time gets close to election day, and this senate race is still neck and neck, whether Mr. NJ Progressive will decide that regaining a Democratic majority in the US Senate is more important than how Menendez voted for political expendience [and against Mr. NJ Progressive’s core values]. For me, that national goal is more important, right now.
Trex
I hope you find peace and comfort for the loss of your friend
What a beautiful remembrance TRex.
I’m left with a glimpse of grace and a keyboard full of tears.
True Imm. It just seems such a tidy package under which to headline it. But legally, I’m sure soliciting photos is a pretty damning action.
Snowe’s aunt who raised her when her mother died (she was 6 years old), passed away earlier in the week and Olympia was at the funeral. They were very close and this is a real loss for Snowe.
I had heard it on the radio and forgotten. WHen I saw on line that she was absent, I called the office.
Normally, what people said here is true about how the bills are reconciled. But that’s not what happened this time.
There was no conference.
They didn’t want Democratic Senators to get another chance at slowing things down. So they simply sent the Senate bill to the House. The House voted on exactly the same bill, and apparently a few changed their votes the second time around.
It’s done. Off to the President’s desk already. Signing cermemony next week.
Morning NJP!
I completely agree with your husband’s decsion not to vote for Menendez. It would be a deal breaker for me — Meehan didn’t show up and that has got me furous at him….
But I wouldn’t work to undermine a Dem this season now that the primaries are over — that’s all I was trying to get across. On that point, I am completely with you.
OKAY, NPR is getting into the details about FOley. Old Sow jumped the gun here. Hard not to sometimes when the MSM is so unreliable.
Thanks, Prof. Foland….
:~(
So Professor Foland, can others change their votes retroactively as Michaud has said he will do? The second question is, MIGHT THEY?
I made the mistake of following a link and reading the pdf, with the IM conversations. Between consenting adults, fine. Between an adult and a teen…I was disgusted.
But then Foley just expressed what was emblematic of all the Republicans in power now: it was all about his “needs,” and about seducing whomever would satisfy him. Cheney “needs” power. Bush “needs” power, power to torture, power to humiliate, power to eavesdrop, all to stay in power.
Old Sow @ 224
Big parts of this bill stand a good chance of being found unconstitutioanl and being stuck down.Of course that will take many years to accomplish.
The one and only piece of this legislation for which there is not clear argument of unconstitutionality, is the retroative pardon for war crimes.
I think this was calssic Rovian ratfuck. Divide the Dems (aren’t we made at our “leadership”?) divert energy and enthusiasm away from winning elections (how different is the mood today than at a similar point before the Lamont primary?), use classis “oh look over here!” misdirection and ahve everybody debating torture (which I believe has a clear agrument for striking it) and denial of habeas corpus (which an an argument do clear, that a first year law student could right the Supreme Court brief)so no one will realize this was just a crass bit of CYA.
Never forget the Gonzales memeo warning Bushco that they were in violation of the War Crimes Act.
I truly believe the retroactive pardon was the heart of this legislation.
Well, interesting about Snowe. I’m sorry for her loss. But, if it’s true as Wigwam says above, that the Senate won’t have to vote on it again, she’s dodged the bullet.
It’s too bad she’s not on record. I can’t imagine that this bill will be popular with the Maine electorate, and at this point Jean needs all the help she can get.
OS, I’m off to make pancakes for my darlins. See you in Bangor!
There’s an interesting op-ed in today’s NY Times, with an eerie historical parallel
OS–sorry, I think I wasn’t clear. There was nothing retroactive. There was an actual second vote taken in the House yesterday. The first House version (passed, I think, Tuesday) differed slightly from the Senate version. Normally there’d be a new reconciled bill coming out of committee, which both chambers would have to vote on. After all, both chambers have to vote to approve the bill before it becomes a law. These second votes are usually either (a) carbon copies of the original vote count or (b) more often accepted by unanimous consent, the losing side simply accepting defeat.
But that’s not what happened here. Yesterday the leadership sent the Senate bill to the House, because that way they would be exactly the same and could simply send it on to the president without going back to the Senate with a reconciled bill.
They did this because they were afraid Democratic Senators might try to block a reconciled bill–it was not procedurally covered by the unanimous consent decree and could have been filibustered. But it’s impossible to stop things in the House without 50% plus 1.
lhp — I am still considering the retroactive pardons…. I am not so sure they are valid. Does Congress really have a general pardon power? In the big retroactivity case, Teague v. Lane, there is a category of allowable retroactive application which is “conduct which is put beyond the power of the law to punish.” This has been read to be a narrow 8th amendment exception only (decisions like “can’t execute the mentally retarded”….)
So, I do not read the section as a pardon — but rather as a proscription on prosectution. Like what happened when prohibition was repealed.
I need to think more about this part and I will spend the time on it to hopefully come up with a happier argument for you.
What a sad state of affairs Bush and his cronies have created. We now have to all become partisans hacks no matter what although I would definitely draw the line if a Foley situation occurred. If his name is on the ballot no way how party oriented would I check that box.
Agreed, LHP. I hope that when the dust settles that we get back to defeating the GOP in the midterms and taking back both houses so that we can thwart BushCo for the rest of its term. Not that we don’t have our own housecleaning to do as well, b ut thwarting BushCO is paramount!
And I’m with looseheadprop 244. I thought the poison pill strategies were dumb because they would have swallowed any poison pills to get the pardons, knowing the pardons would survive SCOTUS even if they lost every other provision of the bill.
These people look after themselves first. And only.
Professor Foland, Thanks for the clarification.
OS, I just checked the roll call, and Mike voted against it yesterday.
Check out Eva Cassidy
DefJef..linky?
looseheadprop @
244
No doubt about it.
Now, I know that the “ex post facto” clauses of the Constitution don’t prohibit the legalization of something that was illegal at the time. That was established by SCOTUS well over a century ago. But now we have a slightly different problem. What would happen if that legalizing legislation were repealed? Could the original perp now be tried and convicted?
I think that is something that has never been tested. Right?
Good morning, folks. Sunny and low 80s already here in south Florida… what I wouldn’t give for a bit of that crisp fall air you have up north!
Question: I’m trying to understand the ex post facto prohibition, specifically as how it might apply in this reprehensible bill that retroactively absolves the Shrub et al. Could a new Congress repeal this law, thereby making the original law applicable again? Or would that in itself go against the ex post facto prohibition by making something illegal in the past that was — however briefly — legal?
I’m just trying to figure out the best way to a) get out of this bill if/when we regain Congress and b) hold the Shrub accountable under any and all applicable laws.
Thanks for the comments, and back to that coffee…
Wigwam and I must’ve been channeling the same thought…
njprogressive @
246
Wow! That is a great historical parallel.
Prof Foland, lhp, imm, everyone else, really appreciate the laser like legal analysis.
njprogressive @
246
I had a very prescient (physics) grad student who started an extracurricular program of studying the end of the Roman republic–on November 3, 2004.
DefJef
Eva Cassidy…what a wonderful voice, stilled much too young.
immanentize @
248
It is simply a law that, after the fact, legalizes a given action. Per LectLaw.com:
Notice that the question of whether the “ex post facto” clauses of the Constitution prohibit ex-post-facto legalization got settled in the negative in 1798.
Prof. Foland and others,
I fear you are right, that the “get out of jail for free” card was the irreducible core of the torture bill.
Professor Foland @ 251
Of course; they are Republicans. “Good is when I steal from you. Evil is when you steal from me.”
FishGuyDave @ 257
Hmmmmm. I thought I noticed someone else thinking that thought. ;-)
Wigwam –
I am not talking about ex post facto at all, I am talking about retroactivity — a different concept. I see three possibilities for a court to consider abut prior acrtions:
1) This legislation made acts in the past that were then illegal retroactively legal
2) The law grants a pardon to all past wrong doers and at the same time makes the actions in question now legal.
3) The law is actually a prohibition on prosecution for a specific set of offenses, whether the acts in question were legal or not.
I think it is the third. So my task is to prove that by its language and demonstrate how prosecutions can nonetheless happen whether the section is repealed or not.
good morning firepups,
allow me to second John Casper’s commendation above -
something upthread prompted me to look up unanimous consent on Wiki – and that took me to a very long, detailed entry on Originalism – and now I can’t get my eyeballs to quit spinning or glazing over -
thank gawd for the legal brains here
John Casper @ 259
I’ll accept some thanks on the legislative procedure side, though of course I only know it from countless House and Senate staffers that I bugged yesterday trying to encourage them to find any way on earth to slow it down. I certainly hope though that I’ve not given anything construed as actual legal analysis–as a physicist I am wholly unqualified on that front.
FishGuyDave @ 256
Notice that Article VI of the Constitution makes Senate-ratified treaties “the supreme law of the land,” and this bill can’t change that fact. What it does is to over-ride (or repeal) the War Crimes Act of 1996, which makes war crimes into federal crimes.
The President bears a special responsibility w/r/t enforcement of the supreme law of the land. GWB has not only failed to enforce it but has willfully violated it and encouraged others to do so.
We discussed the issue a few days back in this form:
– Illegal act is committed
– Later, Congress declares act legal, retroactively
– Still later, Congress repeals declaration of legal act.
An opinion was offered from someone with legal training that the person who committed the illegal act in the first place could not be tried in this scenario.
We did not discuss the outcome if step 3 above is replaced by
– Illegal act is committed
– Later, Congress declares act legal, retroactively
– Still later, Supreme Court declares law making act legal unconstitutional.
This seems like a scenario in which the SCOTUS might be saying that a fundamental constitutional right (such as habeas corpus) cannot be suspended except as allowed constitutionally, and therefore that an initially illegl act that was made legal on the basis of this unconstitutional exercise of Congressional authority in fact would have been illegal throughout.
So for example, it would seem to me that if Congress meant to declare that Bush could now not be tried for a war crime for ordering torture, because the actions that he ordered were retroactively declared to be in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, there might be a little wiggle room left in the future. That is, the bill that will be signed next week reaffirms the Geneva Conventions. Could it not be found that the reinterpretation option offered by the new legislation was itself unconstitutional, especially when applied retroactively to the person who gets to decide what is, isn’t, was and wasn’t torture? This is self-pardoning, which seems unconstitutional to me.
In this scenario, I could imagine that others might get off, but wouldn’t Bush, in the special role as president (as described in the new legislation) remain in at least a little jeopardy?
There is also the problem for the administration that some of the prisoners have died as a result of their torture, that was ordered from above. That is behavior that remains illegal.
I offer these thoughts to the legal types for analysis. I am merely a physicist…
————————–
NJP: I feel that your husband could satisfy his conscience by making it crystal clear to Menendez how he feels, without working for his defeat with all his energy. That is, I feel he has the option of protesting until he is sure that Menendez understands how his vote was received by a former supporter. I would therefore choose a small venue for the protest, where it could not escape M’s notice.
I see no conflict between protest and acquiescence. In a democracy, Menendez should weigh the opinions of all his constituents. If your husband makes his opinion clear to Menendez, in a public and painfully obvious way, then he will have done his duty (in my opinion). I see no reason for your husband to try with all his energy to change the opinions of many people about the candidacy of Menendez, which would be the inevitable outcome of a more extensive effort. After all, there are good arguments that Menendez might be less bad than another choice.
I can’t hang around this morning…I’m already late for a great conference at which five of us (some who have traveled from outside the US) are learning how to get new treatment options for the rare form of cancer that we each have.
So much to do, so little time…
immanentize @ 266
Ah so. Thanks.
IIRC, wording of that clause of the bill says something to the effect that after the bill is enacted everything in sight will be as if the bill had been enacted in 1997. At least that’s how I understood one of the earlier versions.
BTW, does anyone have a link to the final bill?
Wigwam @
271
November, 26, 1997 IIRC. I’ve asked every staffer I’ve talked to this week what happened that day. Nobody knows. (Checks of news archives show nothing in particular–though there was a major terrorist attack on tourists in Egypt the week before.)
Things happen for the strangest reasons sometimes. Perhaps the timing of the Foley scandal will be the nail in the coffin for the Repugs this election.
Since the nature of it is so salacious, with the cover up reaching to the top of the Repug leadership, and with it being so close to the election, it demonstrates how corrupt the leadership is. A very distinct line has been crossed here. It’s not bribes, it’s involves kids, sex, and the abuse of power. All of which demonstrate how blatant the corruption of power is their party today.
has there been discussion of this Greenwald post already ? -
They Are Tantric On Pain & Suffering #8673
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..-true.html
took me back to readings of FBI wiretaps of Klansmen, so much so I couldn’t finish
Morning, gang. New thread, fresh and ready. :)
The final version of the MCA is available at: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/…..09huIfIb::
A lot got changed in the final few days, so please base any analyses on the final version.
If anyone knows where to get a PDF for this document, pleasse let me know.
See if this works to get the latest version of the torture bill in PDF:
http://www.govtrack.us/data/us…../s3930.pdf
TRex @ 50
REM, “Green” tour. I’d sort-of heard of REM before, heard a couple singles, etc. I liked them ok. I expected the concert to be something a bit cerebral, something that took itself just a bit too seriously – but hopefully in the good way.
What I got was a hyperkinetic joyous blast. Unreal. 15,000 people in the audience, and it felt like Michael connected emotionally with every single one. And revved them. Right. Up. Then chilled them down. We were all right there with him, and delighted to be there.
These days, when I read the blogs and they’re on a roll, I hear the rumble and roar of that night’s rendering of “Begin the Begin” – introduced by Michael with “… this is a song about personal and social activism.”
—
Silence means security silence means approval
On Zenith, on the TV, tiger run around the tree
Follow the leader, run and turn into butter
Let’s begin again, begin the begin
Let’s begin again like Martin Luther zen
The mythology begins the begin
—
Ok.