
I’d like to do something unusual and engage my Red State blog brethren in a serious conversation. I know in the past we have devolved into pigtail dunking, mud pie throwing and other antics more pitched at kindgertarten level, but I have to say that when it came to backing Steve Laffey against Lincoln Chafee, they didn’t back down off their principles, they didn’t do what the party dictated and they stood up for what they believed in within the GOP.
We did much the same thing in backing Ned Lamont, though as I’ve expressed before I think the battle we picked was wiser — had either Lamont or Lieberman won the primary, ostensibly a "Democrat" would have gotten the support of all of us going into the general and most probably won, so there was little chance of throwing control of the Senate to the Republicans. Had Laffey beaten Chafee, he didn’t stand a chance against the Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse. But as I’ve said before, I respected their willingness to stand up for what they believe in and threaten to burn the place down if the party continued to take them — and their values — for granted. That kind of passion, even if I don’t agree with the underlying principles, is the only antidote to the kind of political opportunism, the slavishness to polling that seems to paralyze the beltway set from acting like statesmen.
So I only have one question — whither Alan Schlessinger?
Joe Lieberman is about six inches away from Lincoln Chafee. He routinely brags about all the pork he’s finessed and doesn’t even have the good sense to be embarrassed by the term. Alan Schlessinger makes all the right noises that made Laffey the darling of the movement conservatives. From one of his recent ads:
Are you tired of listening to Joe Lieberman and Ned Lamont arguing over who is the best Democrat or the most liberal? … Meet Alan Schlesinger, a proven Republican leader who opposes higher taxes and more wasteful spending. Unlike Joe Lieberman, Alan Schlesinger won’t cave in to the ‘Amnesty Now’ crowd for illegal immigrants who violate our borders. Alan Schlesinger will oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants and fight to keep our national borders secure.
When it comes to tax reform he’s a Club for Growth wet dream. Are we supposed to believe their lack of voluble support because of Schlessinger’s gambling problem? I mean come on, this is the party of Bill Bennett. There was a moment in the sun when Lieberman announced his plan to run as an independent when the right could’ve staked out the Republican vote in the state and not ceded it to Lieberman, made a stand for their principles he obviously does not respect. Instead, the GOP refused to endorse Schlessinger, and Karl Rove made it clear that he would help Lieberman.
So now the GOP is backing this man, Joe Lieberman, for the Connecticut Senate seat:
The liberal group Americans for Democratic Action gave Lieberman’s 2003 voting record a “liberal quotient” of 70 (out of 100), putting him only slightly to the right of center in a caucus in which six members earned a 75 while Nebraska’s Ben Nelson clocked in at 45. Harry Reid, the Democrats’ new leader, had an identical score to Lieberman’s.
The American Conservative Union, meanwhile, gave Lieberman a zero for 2004 and 2003, offering him a lifetime 17. This puts him to the left of uncontroversial Democrats like Blanche Lincoln (21), Thomas Carper (18), Tim Johnson (20), and, again, Reid (21). Indeed, in 2002 and 2003, Lieberman scored slightly to the left of John Kerry and John Edwards.
Whatever the reasons the party is backing Lieberman, it has absolutely nothing to do with the values espoused by "movement conservatives." Which, as evidenced in the Laffey/Chafee fight, ought to enrage them. Instead they stay largely silent. Is it because it’s a tough race? That’s never stopped us — back in January Ned Lamont was behind in the polls by 50 points or something. Is it because Karl Rove told them to suck this one up? Yeah the establishment Democrats did the same thing to us, and we told them we’d pass, thank you very much.
Obviously I have an interest in seeing Schlessinger promoted as the GOP candidate, I won’t pretend I don’t — Lieberman is allowed to "have it both ways" all too often. Before the primary all Joe’s literature berated Lamont for voting with Republicans 90% of the time, and now that Lieberman needs the Republican vote Lamont is a member of the looney left. I think the values crowd on the right has allowed their territory to be hijacked and their message obscured by someone who is only appropriating it temporarily for political gain (starting on the evening of August 8 by my count) — how long until he throws off that mantle too?
I can tell my fellow bloggers on the right that although some are (unfathomably) embracing Lieberman now, he has an ugly tendency to repay loyalty with betrayal, and he’s quite good at sticking the knife right between your shoulder blades when it will hurt most. We stand by progressive candidates on our Blue America page not because we think they’re all going to win, but because we want to reinforce our values by promoting candidates who aren’t afraid to express them. We learned the value of doing that from the right.
So I’ll ask again — is there a reason that you guys are letting Alan Schlessinger flounder? And what’s going to happen the next time an anti-pork, lower taxes candidate wants to take a stand against a Chafee or a Lieberman? Will they look at this race and realize that if the party doesn’t find their values acceptable at the moment, you’re not going to have their back?




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ROPEZ.
Just announced on radio that NATO is going to take control of Afghanistan and 12,000 US troops will be under NATO command.
As the commentator remarked – “Can you imagine what would have been said if this had happened under Clinton’s presidency?”
FITZ!!
Freedom!
Twisted Martini @ 4
Where?
We on the left must support MSNBC for the courage it is demonstrating by supporting the advertisers that are backing Olbermann’s show.
This is a partial list of the advertisers whose commercials were on the show last night.
Cheerios
monster.com
PNC
commitlozenge.com
Aleve
sprint mobile broadband
senior lending network reverse mortgages
Honda Certified Used Cars
AT&T Dynamic Networking New ATT att.com
ReadyRegion.org red cross
Comcast digital voice
l’Oreal Pro Calcium Moisturizer
NBC NEws on I-Tunes
subaru outback sport utility wagon
Genworth Financial Retirement solutions
Vonage unlimited local and long distance calling
New York Stock Exchange
Clairol natural Instincts
Dell Power Edge Servers
I encourage you to contact them and thank them and let MSNBC know how much you love and support the show, and that you are supporting their advertisers. Even better, go out and spend money on their products. If you are already a customer, let them know that as a customer, you are strongly supportive of Olbermann having a continued voice and that if they support other shows like his, you will support them even more.
If you want to help others, dig up contact information on the advertisers and post it as a comment after the article.
Me, I’m going out today to buy me a box of Cheerios. It would be nice if people who believe Olbermann is serving democracy and truth cleared out the shelves of Cheerios today, as a gesture. Yep, today, make it three boxes of Cheerios. Let’s send a message to General Mills that supporting tough, honest journalism is good for business.
And John Conyers, you’re on the judiciary committee, please, get something started to protect Keith Olbermann, who has already been abused by our government enough.
Today’s Republicans don’t have actual conservative principles. They’re just in favor of whatever pisses off the liberals.
Hopefully there will be some serious dialogue with our counterparts on the right, in general as well as on this one issue.
The nation we are losing belongs to all of us. Can we put our minds together to come up with some solutions?
Then when the crisis is over, we can go back to normal arguing over regular policy questions.
Examples of overlapping interests: not having a shattered Army and Marines; war profiteering; body armor; reducing the deficit; living within the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions.
How about it, folks on the right?
I’d like to do something unusual and engage … in a serious conversation.
That IS unusual!
I really don’t think it is a contest between Democrats and Republicans anymore. Lieberman’s appeal transcends political parties. He’s the candidate of the NeoCon lobby. When reelected you can expect him to take a lead role in promoting military action against Iran…just as he promoted regime change in Iraq.
Over the next month you can expect to see the NeoCons of all political persuasions rally behind Lieberman and pour tons of money into his campaign.
I’d love to see Lamont win…but I’m not very hopeful given the kind of financial support Lieberman will have.
Re: Lamont.
This IS worrisome.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15042299/
The travesty of justice and principle that is taking place on the floor of the Senate right now should only spur people to work harder to dump Lieberman (I don’t care if he has voted the “right” way on these amendments).
OK kiddo – you need to look at the other polls, and the trends.
Wither Schlessinger?
That’s him on the billiard room floor, with a candlestick lying next to him.
Colonel Mustardrove found him.
;>)
Sure, the right won’t show up when you invite them but….
Reasons for supporting Lieberman?
1. The war
2. The war
3. The war
Some so-called Democratic Party leaders can be very un-nerving. At least for this Democrat.Anne @ 12
Perhaps you could point me in the right direction.
Trevino at 8 — Ah, ever the wit of a dull butter knife…how droll, and predictable, of you.
Josh Trevino @
8
Well what’s not unusual, apparently, is that you are not, nor are you above editing a comment to distort its meaning.
Same ole same ole.
Perhaps I’m just too, too darned progressive.
Jane,
I agree with you. Here is something I had posted on Schlessinger long time ago. He also has his own blog!!!
Lets hope that the republicans will support Schlessinger at the end. Anyway, despite the poll today, I still think Ned will win. It is inconceivable that any democrat will vote for Lieberman at the end.
OK Kiddo at 19 — perhaps today is not quite the right day for pushing buttons, hmmm? Try the Rasmussen poll or any of the numerous others that we’ve linked. Try Ned’s blog, because Tim linked some information up there this morning.
Blue Wind 20 — thanks, good post.
Lieberman Goes on Right Wing Blog, Attacks Al Gore, Chris Dodd, and Ted Kennedy
via MyDD
Ewwwwwwwwwww.
Who the hell let Trevino in here? Now it smells like an Iraqi police academy.
That smell better be out of here before Late Nite or I’m gonna be pissed.
whois @
6
Folks, this got stuck in moderation and most of you have probably passed it by. It is worthy of a careful read. Thanks, Whois.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 1:53 pm (#10)
A quick refresher on election math for those who need it – a ten point Lieberman lead means that at most 7% of Connecticut voters need to change their minds between now and election day for Lamont to take the lead in a statistically significant way. There are also some undecideds in that mix (7%, I think). I don’t know anything about CT politics, but this doesn’t strike me as an insurmountable lead at this point.
I can, of course, only speak for myself and not my “Red State brethren,” but I’m certainly not supporting Lieberman.
As for why I’m not being more active in supporting Schlesinger? Well, there’s about 12-15 other Republican candidates I’d like to support who actually have a chance at winning, and I have a limited supply of time/energy/attention span.
Another aspect of Schlessingers’ candidacy that ought to please the right wing bloggers is that Schlessinger has absolutely no ties to Bush.
47-52 on Byrd
Speaking of Lamont, I just got a Lamont fundraising letter from Mark Warner’s PAC, which hopefully settles the questions raised by the unsourced allegation of fence-sitting in the NYTimes article a few days ago. It quotes extensively from Lamont’s WSJ op-ed, and links to an ActBlue page that also includes the CT congressional candidates.
In all seriousness…can there be any doubt that the reason the right supports Holy Joe is simply because they were told to?
Is there ANYTHING that says otherwise?
Kennedy Amend… 4min each, then vote…Byrd Amend down 47-52.
Then the big ugly…
afterthought @ 15
Maybe they will. They love their country. We have more in common than you think.
Brava, Jane.
We don’t have to be assured that a candidate will win, to support them, if our liberal values are reinforced (for real) by a good candidate. Okay that idea sounds sweet to the ears, but I keep thinking about global warming, the clock running down, the disaster of it all looming, and I think I would even vote for McCain if I TRULY thought he would get the country and the world on the right track in that regard (like Schwarzenegger). We have no time to stand on principles, we need to get people in there as soon as posssible who will act to save the planet. There is no other issue so important at this time in history.
Blue Wind @
20
Ah yes, the joys of getting your news from the MSM. There was more than one new poll today, and have been several over the course of the week. Pollster.com, for example, lists four in the last week, with Ned trailing by 2%, 2%, 10%, and 2%. Guess which one makes the front page in the MSM, under headlines like “Lieberman destined to trounce Left-wing upstart”?
–MarkusQ
P.S. Ironically, WSJ is highlighting today’s 2%, and points out that it’s within the margin of error–presumably (from my reading of the piece) to motivate potential Lieberman voters and remind them not to get complacent.
I love this, Jane. I’m spotlighting it to some of my favorite Connecticut editors, starting with a particularly rightwing paper I recall.
The right may believe they love their country. Now is the time that will separate the ones that really do from the ones that say they do but really want to change it into something else entirely.
That makes me think of the typing practice sentence from long, long ago school days:
Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.
That really dates me.
Simple.
Lieberman is the new Schlessinger!
S. Whitworth @ 34
Fortunately, you don’t have to make that choice — even if McCain gets the nomination, any Dem he’s going to be running against would be at least as good on that if not better.
Leon H Wolf @ 2:14 pm (#27)
Makes sense to me. You’re probably right – I can’t imagine Schlesinger winning against Lieberman, and even if it were just Lamont-Schlesinger it just doesn’t look that good for Schlessinger.
Of course, as I already explained, I don’t know anything about CT politics.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 20
the term “likely voters” has no meaning after August 8th
polls are weighted to match party participation to voter registration numbers, and there ain’t many people willing to admit they’re repuglicans lately
that is screwing up the numbers lately, and making the repuglicans look stronger
personally, I don’t remember people being this pissed off in 1994.
The irony is that Schlesinger probably has more integrity (as a Republican) than most the Republicans we’ve been watching on C-SPAN today. At least this guy can take a joke.
Right-wing acquaintance of mine says that Lieberman is part of the GOP fallback position if they lose the Senate. If they lose control, at least with Lieberman still an ostensible Democrat, and member of the new majority, they’ll have an inside man. If the GOP maintains control, Lieberman will owe the GOP some favors. A Lieberman win is a win-win for the Republicans, whereas Schlesinger, as a long shot, is more of a crap shoot. A waste of resources. They aren’t trying for pick-ups (except maybe in NJ), they are playing defense. They are running the opposite of Howard Dean’s 50 state strategy.
Mommybrain @ 25
You can say that again!
So easily provoked. The Queen Bee, her Stoli, and her sycophants: a tableau of preening righteousness.
You really think anyone on the right is interested in engaging in “serious conversation” with you? Now? Ever?
How appallingly stupid.
scarecrow @ 2:32 pm (#42)
Mike McGavick, who’s running against Sen. Cantwell out here, seems to be trying to paint himself as the real independent. An ironic choice of themes, to say the least, but it seems to be fairly successful. People are pretty honked at Congress in general, and I think there’s a willingness to accept that anything is better than what we have now.
Personally, I think things could get worse, but that may be the minority view these days. But then, I’ve seen too many TV shows where, when the comic relief says “things couldn’t get much worse”, they inevitably do in the next act.
46-53 on Kennedy amendment
Leon H Wolf @
28
I appreciate that, but I do think there is value in keeping people off your lawn who would appropriate it for their purposes. I think that much of the importance of right/left debate within the blogosphere is in clarifying these underlying principles, and Lieberman muddies them. Look at our ActBlue page, there may be some who don’t have much more of a chance than Schlessinger but we’re sending a message anyway.
We’re not going to shy away from the tough battles like the DCCC, who only care about the winable ones. We think there’s value in supporting Bill Winter against Tom Tancredo, or in promoting challengers to Pombo and Dolittle…Just Because. The right used to be that way, they used to support conservative challengers in every race until they took the day. It looks like you guys aren’t willing to do that any more. We are.
We’ll see what happens.
To the angry fellow at 45
I have serious conversations with people on the right all the damned time. I live in a conservative area. I worked on a project for two weeks with a guy who worked on Lindsay Graham’s campaign. We dissected the crap out of the Lamont-Lieberman race. I learned a lot. He learned a lot. But he was civil, not a judgemental jackhole.
Josh Trevino @ 2:37 pm (#44)
Could you stop jerking off for a second and tell us what you think about Schlessinger?
Josh Trevino @ 45
Just admit it, Trevino, you’re not quite smart enough to understand the argument, and can only engage in ad-hominim attacks because…well, that’s all you’ve got.
You’ve been banned once for being nothing more than an online feces flinger, we let you back in for a couple of minutes and you’ve just earned yourself another trip.
Oh and BTW, how’s that Online Integrity thing working out for you? You guys out anybody this week?
Jane has Stoli? Can I have some?
If we invite people from the right and then talk about “smell” and other insults when they arrive, is that fair? Of course I will exclude anyone who actively insults our hosts.
Ok with me if we don’t engage in dialogue with them, though I happen to think that could be most helpful to get their help in the current Constitutional crisis.
But if we invite them over, I think it is unkind to insult them when they get here.
People from both sides who love this country need to work together, for now. We can always go back to arguing later, when it’s safe.
ironranger @ 38
Just because we disagree with some conservatives about HOW to acheive the goals we have in common, doesn’t mean we don’t have a lot more that (should) unite us than that which divides us.
My husband is a republican. My law partner and friend of almost 25 years is a republican. My law partner likes to call himself a “Rockefeller Republican” or a “Lew Lerhman Republican”. Both social liberals and fiscal conservatives. — Which is how Howard Dean describes himself.
If you get away from the hot button issues, the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS have much more in common with each other, than anybody has in common with Bushco.
Arbusto and friends are the “extremists”, or red state bretheren, are just that–our American brothers and sisters.
I have no quarrel with them, I have a quarrel with Shrubya and an awful lot of Beltway Dems as well.
Further to Blue Wind @ 21…maybe these Republicans need extra assistance in supporting Shlessinger? Phone banking for Shlessinger anyone?
cleter @ 51
It’s been years since I’ve even seen any Stoli.
Josh Trevino @ 45
Or open minded?
Well, I posted this just in time to be EPU’ed yet again. So here it is and now for that walk.
Your daily gas and oil prices.
Average price for regular gasoline 9/28/06 in 50 states and DC
$3.00 plus 1 state
$2.90 plus 1 state
$2.80 plus 0 states
$2.70 plus 6 states
$2.60 plus 2 states
$2.50 plus 6 states
$2.40 plus 3 states
$2.30 plus 8 states
$2.20 plus 12 states
$2.10 plus 11 states
$2.00 plus 1 state
Average national price: $2.342, down $.014 from yesterday
Down 46.9 cents from same time last year.
Highest recorded national average price: $3.057 9/5/2005
Highest average price: Hawaii $3.136
Lowest average price: Missouri $2.053
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp
Nymex Crude Future $62.92, down $.34
Dated Brent Spot $61.02, up $.14
WTI Cushing Spot $62.76, down $.20
Same old, same old. Oil seems to show resistance to the $60 level and so why exactly are gas prices continuing to fall? Gas and oil prices are not entirely decoupled so you have to wonder when oil’s cost will begin to put the brakes on gas prices.
From today’s CQ Quarterly: CO-04 moved to leans republican from republican favored.
Angie Paccione here yesterday with Howie.
We all need to contribute to Alan Schlesinger. Compared to Lieberman, Schlesinger is a much better candidate and he deserves our support. Please contribute here:
http://www.schlesinger2006.com/contribute.shtml
Seriously.
Nah, I don’t drink, it’s probably a bit of projection from someone who had to get liquored up before they had the courage to address a direct question. Notice it didn’t provide the courage to actually answer it.
I respect Leon Wolf’s answer. Trevino’s is…well, Stoli-ridden. At best.
Gas and oil prices are not entirely decoupled so you have to wonder when oil’s cost will begin to put the brakes on gas prices.
I’m guessing sometime after Nov 8 or so. Unless Cheney bombs Iran, in which case we’ll look back wistfully from our donkey carts at the days when gas was only six bucks a gallon.
Jane Hamsher @ 61
Last time I had Stoli was at a wedding five years ago. But, I figured, today being National Shred the Constitution Day and all, I wouldn’t mind having a slug.
Is it just me or does that guy look just like John Arivosis of Americablog?
ironranger @
38
it only dates your typing instructor!
but many repubs also typed that sentence… we’ll see, we’ll see
OT
Mad Dog – I agree with your point – it was just the use of the word “privileges,” which is (or at least was) a legal term of art.
And we both agree with Specter, which is scary.
njr @ 66
You know, when you are a soldier sent to fight for your country, Republican soldiers bleed just as red as Democrat soldiers.
Focus on what unites us as a people and what divides all people of god will from Torture, Illigal Spying, Corruption, Incompetence, Lies and a murderous war entered into on false pretenses.
Skip the Gay bashing, choice, inheretance tax stuff, just for a little while and focus o saving the Country and the Constitutiton
egregious @
53
The complaints were triggered by his conduct, not his party affiliation. I happen to be a life long Republican, and have never been treated with anything but grace (perhaps tempered with an occasional dash of snark) here on FDL, and the same is true of many of the other liberal sites I read.
Why? I suppose it might be because I don’t troll, I don’t try to derail the conversation and I don’t toss lies and insults around. I don’t use phrases such as “the Democrat party” or “Moonbats.” In other words, I behave myself.
Conversely, I have been routinely trashed on “conservative” boards/blogs when I stand up for the constitution at the wrong time, or when I talk about the deficit during a Republican administration, or quote Jesus in a debate with a christian.
And as for the question at the top of the thread, I’m not supporting Schlessinger because I happen to think that Lamont is the better candidate.
–MarkusQ, contrarian, conservative, but consistent
Well, thank you, MarkusQ. That was very well put.
A valid answer to the question would require rational thought and principles, neither of which can be attributed to anyone who can still support the government-as-criminal-enterprise crowd currently in power.
Just look at their acquiescence on the sea of red ink produced by “earmarks” (as in sow’s ear to silk purse, I presume) and the unprecedented war profiteering. These are objectionable only when they happen on the other side’s watch.
Why do they give away their rights and their share of our nation’s prosperity? Because The Leader has told them to, that it will make them safe. Safe from terrorism. Safe from destitution. Safety. The only god-given right, the only thing that matters.
Why do you think they cling so desperately to their god-myth? Because, like a child who has for the first time become aware of the permanence and universality of death, they are afraid. So they cling to the promise of “eternal life” and its vengeful delivery through the fiery consumption of those who do not believe. Meanwhile, the debt piles up, the ice melts, the waters rise, the ranks of the hungry grow by a billion, but they feel safe. That’s all that matters.
Marcus, thanks for your outlook and demeanor. It helps restore some of my faith in my fellow human beings on a day when that faith is sorely challenged by the US Congress
looseheadprop @ 3:03 pm (#66)
Save the Constitution so we all get a chance to argue about that other stuff, is how I’d put it.
lhp, you’re right on. Too many of my republican friends & relatives have clammed up. I think they are feeling discombobulated. I know we have a hell of a lot more views in common than they do with the neocon highjackers. My republican friends/family are VERY loyal people & don’t change their loyalties without a lot of anguish, if ever. Someone commented that to realize that the majority of liberals are not wacko loonies but more center, then one would have to admit that the neocons are the extremists. That is a tough concept for some people to wrap their mind around after years of “fair & balanced” media. Their republican party doesn’t exist anymore, the current bunch made sure of that. I think more & more are realizing this.
On the other hand, I know plenty of republican lemmings that are perfect followers as described in John Dean’s book. There is just no hope for them.
Josh Trevino @
46
It might be one of the few things that keep your posterboys out of the pen…Oh, silly me, that would be them and the prosecutors, when the great neoconservative narkfest commences.
My apologies
;>)
The Republicans are backing Lieberman becuase he truly represents their values, which are slavish devotion to the decider, right or wrong. Schlesinger is too independent for them to support.
knuckledragger @ 71
Why do you think “they” –if by they you mean rank and file Republicans– continue to support Shrub? Have you seen his pool ratings? There’s way too many Republicans out there for Bush to have ratings that low (and look at his ratings on the war!) without many many Republicans having withdrawn their support of him and his horrors
I read about 20 blogs every morning (saving FDL for last) and outside of The Cunning Realist, I haven’t found any conservative points of view that aren’t extremist and basically useless (though hysterically funny) as a useful means of dialogue.
just sayin’ that the invitation may have fallen on deaf ears.or dumb ones.
Cujo359 @ 73
My remarks stand corrected and improved!
if you must read polls, at least read this one: lamont within MOE
Josh Trevino @ 46
For once you are right. You are appallingly stupid.
And I bet you couldn’t figure that our yourself. Had to be someone with smarts, integrity and honesty to clue you into that.
Must’ve been a Progressive!
Back to cesspool where you belong and so happily enjoy!
LHP,
I was specifically referring to the 39%. You know, the dead-enders and religious fanatics. Of course, both are over-represented here in Texas (Hey Mark B, I’m toiling away in my office bunker on 360, but will head south to home soon.)
Hi, knuckes, I got off work early today, and am sitting in my study in beautiful South Austin.
In my more paranoid moments, I wonder if ‘reality TV’ is also part of the neocon plan. It certainly promotes their view of the world: us vs them and winning at any cost (and also greed).
Principled Republicans should vote for their own candidate. I know there aren’t any principled Republican officeholders left, but lots of average Americans are traditional Republican voters that have been betrayed by the criminal regime now in power. They have options other than boot licker Lieberman.
They are desperate to turn out their hardcore at nearly 100%, hence their willingness to shred the Constitution like it was a Greenberg Traurig invoice. Probably somewhat like the mood at the Chancellory as the T-34s rumbled through the Brandenberg Gate. Surely The Leader has the miracle weapons we have heard about.
Mark B
Just moved south (Wm Cannon & Manchac). Sorry for the aside, everyone.
OT:
Venceremos, Billmon.
‘A revolution is a struggle to the death between the future and the past‘.
;>)
nj progressive @
72
You are quite welcome, and the same in return.
Shortly after the 2004 “election” I got into a rather interesting chat with some people on DU (IIRC) about the way in which Bush, Cheney, Rove, Diebold et al have in fact united people from across the whole spectrum of American politics–though not, perhaps, in a way they intended.
As I said then, I look forward to the day when we can go back to debating the fine points of our policy differences, and arguing at length about how our nation ought to be run. But first, thanks to the present administration, we will all have to all pull together and reclaim it before there is nothing left to govern.
–MarkusQ
Mark B. in Austin TX @ 76
The Republican Party Bosses are. Election Day will tell us if the rank and file do.
You know, lots of Dem party bosses are just as bad. Some may be worse.
Bushco has shafted everybody. His pursuit of power for it’s own sake harm’s all Americans.
We have a historic opportunity, to rise up and save our Constitution. When I say “rise up” I don’t mean armed rebellion. I am thinking more like the “I am Sparticus” scene when the Romans wanted the defeated slave army to turn over/give up Sparticus to be punished.
He tries to turn himself in to spare the others, but one by one man after man rises up and says “I am Sparticus” and willingly faces his own death for the sake of another and for the sake of an ideal.
To do that, we need ALL our fellow Americans, not just the ones who agree with us on every detail, to stand up for our Consitution and for each other. How can that happen if we can’t even discuss it?
Tim @ 76
The only two conservative blogs I’ve found that have smart content are Dennis The Peasant and Screw Loose Change. The latter I’d actually call a “subject matter” blog that just happens to be run by a conservative. It’s a good blog and a great resource for folks who want to understand what the reality-based community thinks of nonsense like “Loose Change”. Dennis the Peasant just makes smart observations about things. I don’t visit as often as I should, because he can intersperse some serious thoughts in between the invective. He has a good article today about the Ohio governor’s race, BTW.
knuckledragger @ 82
Yeah, but what about all the rest of ‘em? We got the makings of an electoral majority there sugar!
Db,
Good to see Billmon not following through on his promised hiatus, especially after that last post about that WaPo article on global warming. Quelle downer!
LHP,
GOTV, GOTV, GOTV…
Thanks Jane for the post. I think many repubs are thinking the same thing. Its integrity that we expect, but are sorely missing in OUR Washington.
And Trevino #46…well, I’ll keep with the spirit of the post and yell it out loud, rather than comment here.
knuckledragger @ 94
Wokin’ on it. Actually working on Electionb Protection. meetings tonight tomorrow, Saturday.
I’m working on it.
BTW any Lawyer in the NYS who wants to help with election monitoring on Election Day shoot an email to lhpfdl@yahoo.com. Have we got vital work for you!
The right is desparate to marginalize the influence of the progressives and the progressive blogs because they fear what they represent – a sure fired antidote to the conservative noise machine that has dominated United States politics and political discourse for the last 30 years.
In the minds of the rightwingers, if Lieberman a reliable practioner of surrender-politics wins, they win. If Lamont, the candidate identified most closely with in-your-face progressives and progressive blogs wins, they lose. Supporting Schlessinger won’t advance their agenda marginalizing progressives so they don’t support him. I think it is that simple.
PK,
I think you’d make a good carpenter, cause you sure hit that nail on the head!
What impresses me (but I’m not envious of) is how well they direct their ranks. Of course, it’s a lot easier when critical thought is eliminated.
I remember in school, when there were pep rallies and talk of “school spirit” I used to wonder what purpose any of that served. Now I know.
Semi O/T, a question. What is the exact quote that goes something like “from time to time it may become necessary to rise up and kick the bums out, and replace them with a proper government”? Is that in the Constitution, or is it in the Federalist papers?
Throw an Englishman a bone, please. It’s been bugging me all day.
Jane said @ 49:
I fail to see how Lieberman muddying your waters should be of significant concern to us. He doesn’t muddy ours. He’s not planning to caucus Republican, call himself a Republican, etc. To the extent that he’s a “renegade Democrat” (which is your business, not mine), I leave to you guys to hash out.
We didn’t spend a lot of time going after Chafee (who does muddy our waters) because, well.. there are Democrats to beat in this election, and he’s better than all of them except Ben Nelson. I’d have thought you guys would feel the same way about Republicans. You can deride “partisan politics” all you want, but nothing matters so much to getting an agenda passed as the organizational vote.
I think we’re engaging in one of those battles right now, in Murtha’s district. If someone pisses us off enough, we’ll go after him/her, sometimes if there’s not even a reasonable shot at winning. But I think the larger thing is moving the agenda forward. As a member of the minority, Teddy Kennedy is just hilarious. As Judiciary Chairman, he’s a serious pain in the backside.
YMMV.
OK,
off to do the Austin pasttime, sitting in traffic…
The protagonist falls asleep at his desk, and begins to snore slightly. Scene goes wavy. Return to focus. Protagonist shuts off computer, leaves office and takes the Austin Metro 360 line to the Pleasant Valley Station, wehre he changes trains to take the William Cannon line home to be greeted by his adoring wife…
Patrick Kennedy is right. A Lieberman win over Lamont will generate a headline along the lines of LIEBERMAN BEATS BLOG CHALLENGER or somesuch. Then there’ll be stories about blogs over-reaching, shooting themselves in the foot, being too far to the left, etc. Bur a Lamont win…that will generate a lot of status-quo under threat kind of stories. If Lamont wins, he’s less of an out-there kook. And so, by extension, are his supporters. If Lamont loses, though, then the story-line will be “kooks fail to elect kook candidate, bipartisanship triumphs over kookery.”
cleter @ 102
It’s a high stakes game, but we’ve got the balls to play, and hopefully win.
PeteCO @ 97
It’s from that rebellious colonial, Thomas Jefferson, in the Declaration of Independence:
To think of these great words, on this day of all days . . .
There is another Lieberman running for Senate as a Democrat. Watch out. The Dems need to make a sacrifice play on this race.
Your making the same mistake that Bill Clinton made Jane and that is trying to engage the Neo
cons in a meaningful dialog.They are not about nice talk.They want power and Senator
Lieberman will be one more vote for their side
Here’s some more Thomas Jefferson for ya:
“The Habeas Corpus secures every man here, alien or citizen, against everything which is not law, whatever shape it may assume.” –Thomas Jefferson to A. H. Rowan, 1798.
and
“Freedom of the person under the protection of the habeas corpus I deem [one of the] essential principles of our government.” –Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801
Torture Joe.
Pre-Magna Carta thinking
bob @ 3:59 pm (#105)
The only positive thing I can say about Ford relative to Lieberman is that he’s probably about as good as you can get from Tennessee. There are progressives there, but they must feel awfully lonely at times.
Peterr @ 104,
Bingo! You nailed it. Thanks. The reason I thought of it was because there was a thread over on Digby this morning, the topic of which was “In the event of Bush’s impeachment, would he go quietly like Nixon, or would he need to be, shall we say, persuaded?” I am of the opinion that the military, who swear allegiance to the Constitution, and have been royally screwed by Chimpy, would remove him, physically if necessary. I wanted that quote to bolster my point.
Thanks again.
I’ll trade Harold Ford’s caucus vote for Bill Frist’s any day. Even if Ford is only an inch to the left of Frist, hell, I’ll take that inch. Eyes on the prize, people. Trade the Senate Majority leader for a Democrat? Even a Semi-Democrat? Hell yeah.
Leon H Wolf @ 100
As a member of the current majority, Arlen Specter is just hilarious. As Judiciary Chairman, he’s a serious pain in the backside.
I just saw flash on MSNBC that the Senate passed the bill 65-34. Anyone else see that?
Cujo359 @ 109
As a progressive in Tennessee, I’d say you got that very correct. *crickets chirping*
Also from Mr. Jefferson’s Declaration:
For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury;
and
He has affected to render the military independent of, and superior to, the civil power.
SharonW @ 113
I’m serious guys. My stupid channel display was on so it was hard to see, but I believe it said the detainee bill passed the Senate 65-34 and is expected to be signed into law by the President tomorrow.
cleter @ 111
AMEN!!
SharonW @ 113
Yeah, some of us have been over on the previous thread live-blogging it.
Mad Dogs @ 118
So that’s IT?!?! No Armed Services Committee? And WHICH freakin’ Dems voted for it? I’m shocked!
SharonW @ 116
You are correct. I watched the vote on CSPAN.
This is outrageous!
Mad Dogs @
112
Ach, too true!
Excuse me, should I have posted the detainee bill over there? If so, let me be topical.
FUCK JOE LIEBERMAN!
Seeing that Q-Poll today started the day off bad, and I see it ending similarly.
This sucks, but I’m still fighting for Lamont here. What a day. What a dismal day in America.
SharonW @ 119
Oh cuties like Rockefeller, Lautenberg, Menendez, Salazar, Landrieu, Pryor and of course, Lieberloser.
And no, I have no clue why Rockefeller and Lautenberg would vote for tyranny.
new thread, everyone
Leon H Wolf @ 121
LOL! Now would you look at that. We agree on something.
Jane, lookee here.
I get that some of the dems are going for this travesty out of fear of being “Clelanded” in the upcoming election. I happen to think they are wrong. The r’s do try to set these traps, but sometimes they’re just stupid like in the Schaivo situation. I think dems like Sherrod Brown would have been better off politically as well as morally if they had called Rove’s bluff and clearly articulated why. Now they will be forever compromised even if they win in november.
Leon H Wolf @
100
Hate to break the news, but Lieberman is now running as the defacto Republican, aiming his pitch straight at Republican voters, with whom he has an 80% favorability rating and without whom he cannot win. He’s got the open support of the RNC, who refuse to back the anti-tax Schlessinger. He stopped running as a Democrat in the primary so breaking down his liberal bona fides has been off our table for over a month — he’s no longer trying to assert them.
And if you could’ve forced Lieberman off the GOP’s turf and split the liberal vote, and gotten behind Schlessinger, you might have defeated one of them. Again, why can this guy Schlessinger get no love? I just don’t understand why somebody isn’t hollering about the fact that the party is working to undermine a true movement conservative against Lieberman. I get that it’s a dog — it won’t make any difference in the race — but I think many of your posts have been motivated by principle and if the shoe was on the other foot I’m pretty sure I’d be writing it. Traffic killer though it might be.
scarecrow @
108
Yeah, kinda like “pre-9/11″ thinking. Let’s start calling it “Pre 6/15 thinking.” If I recall correctly King John signed Magna Carta on 6/15/1215… Any historians out there?
David Olsen @ 126
Exactly, as my husband and I were just discussing, the Republicans are going to wave the “soft on terror” cudgel no matter which way the Dems voted on the torture bill. So why the hell not step up to the plate and filibuster? Firey floor speeches aside, the Dems got rolled over on this one…thus ensuring yet another weekend news cycle of “why can’t the Democrats get their act together.”
David Olsen @
126
It is inexplicable considering what’s at stake—but downright tragic.
SharonW @ 122
Sharon – When I first heard about the Q poll I was upset, too. However there are three national polls – including the Zogby Interactive – that have Lamont down only 2 and two polls, the Q poll and Leiberliar’s polling company’s poll, that has Lieberman up 10 or so.
Personally, I don’t think the Lamont campaign has been the best it could be the past six weeks – but I also don’t think Lieberman has a whole lot of support.
I have a problem with Lamont’s campaign manager thinking Lamont shouldn’t have nationally known Dems showing up in the state campaigning for him. That’s nuts. They need to get their act together, quickly. People are looking for an alternative to Lieberman and ads about turncoats doesn’t cut it.
BTW – I volunteer every weekend for Ned.
Schlessinger is kinda cute. I think it would be interesting for Dem/Repub candidates to, well, debate. Odd idea? I’ll bet this cutey would debate our guy Ned any place any time, sitting or standing, outdoors or in. Just to be heard in earned TV time would suit him just fine. Well! why not? who need Lieberman to make a debate? Mr. Interupter. Mr. Me-first Whiner. Who needs him?
That guy looks like a Republican.
Jane Hamsher @
127
To your first paragraph, running as the de facto Republican is entirely different from running as the actual Republican – one muddies the waters on where we stand, the other does not. Also, I am unconcerned about him courting Republicans. Here in Tennessee, Republicans are aggressively courted (and relatively well, I might add) by both Harold Ford Jr. and Phil Bredesen. You would swear, if you were here, that Harold Ford Jr. was a Republican, if all you had to go on were his television ads. I’m not aware of a major push to extricate either Ford or Bredesen from the party, for the sin of being politically astute.
Again, however, as far as it goes, this is one Republican who will never support him (Lieberman); and yes, I do wish the CT GOP were a little more… focused. However, the race is (as you say) a dog for us right now, and I’ve got bigger fish to fry.
And if you could’ve forced Lieberman off the GOP’s turf and split the liberal vote, and gotten behind Schlessinger, you might have defeated one of them.
The current state of the CT GOP suggests otherwise. Even if true, I wouldn’t have really expected Democrat help if Laffey had defeated Chafee, and Chafee run as an independent. When your opponent starts an internicene war, you don’t rush in to help them out; you grab the popcorn.
I just don’t understand why somebody isn’t hollering about the fact that the party is working to undermine a true movement conservative against Lieberman.
We hollered about this plenty during the Chafee/Laffey race. That was because the national party apparatus was spending beaucoup bucks helping Chafee to run slam ads against a Republican. If you have evidence that the NRSC is financially aiding Joe Lieberman, I’ll be right pissed. If it’s just the CT GOP, it’s sadly no more than I can really expect, and not something I’m in a position to change.
I get that it’s a dog — it won’t make any difference in the race — but I think many of your posts have been motivated by principle and if the shoe was on the other foot I’m pretty sure I’d be writing it.
In a year where this race was higher on the radar screen, you’d probably be seeing it. But in case you haven’t noticed, we’re defending a lot of viable seats right now, and hoping to take some others, and those pretty much take precedent over Connecticut right now. It’s not that you don’t have a point, it’s just not one that we have the energy to care about.
Traffic killer though it might be.
Our highest traffic ever was during the Miers debacle. Criticizing the party has never been bad for traffic. It’s a matter of doing it when some good might actually come of it.
Karl Rove has made it a priority to save Lieberman’s seat. Dick Cheney has publicly blasted Lamont on Lieberman’s behalf at least 3 times, and both the RNC and Bush have refused to endorse Schlessinger. It may not have a price tag attached to it but that has a lot of value.
I get it, and you’re under no responsibility to care, I personally hate it when people are telling me what I should and should be writing about, which I’m not trying to do. I’m just curious because we made a decision to stand by progressive candidates to send a message to all Dems, we’ll back you if you back us. It can’t be sending a very good message to folks like Schlessinger. I understand he’s not much of a “values conservative” per se but he’s a tax opponent and a fiscal conservative.
On a larger scale, past this election, do you think it sends a good message to people that nobody’s going to have your back if you don’t please the party bosses? That’s a message we explicitly do NOT want candidates to absorb. Again, we learned that lesson from the right, at least I did.
On the other hand, everyone can’t blog about everything, and I do understand the conservation of resources aspect.
Hi Jane,
America hits new lows again.
1) King George gets expanded powers to keep us safe.
2) Electronic BALLOT machines — we don’t need no stinking paper trail. Do not worry about item #1 falling into the wrong hands Diebold secret software says Hillary did not win.
3) The HP WAY !!! includes getting phone records without approval or warrants.
4) The HP WAY !!! includes $3,700,000.00 payoff for lead counsel to resign. Maybe our next Attorney General ???
5) Chicken Hawks are tough on terror ?
This wouldn’t be possible without public education (controlled by the government) and high school football.
That’s right. Republicans shouldn’t shy away from Shlessinger’s gambling problems. Why we have many a republican congresscritter sitting pretty with all sorts of ethical issues. And Just look at HoJo’s new fundraiser.
Jane Hamsher @
135
Talk is cheap. Would the White House prefer to have Lieberman over Lamont? Sure, probably. As long as they don’t expend my money doing it, and as long as they aren’t taking resources away from a potentially winnable race to support a Democrat, I have to keep coming back to the fact that it’s just very hard for me to care.
I think we’re coming to the point that we’re going to have a fundamental disagreement over whether a “50-state strategy” is a good idea. If you guys want to spend money going after, say, Jeff Sessions’ seat, more power to you.
I should point out that in 2002 we took out Bob Smith in New Hampshire, and managed to keep the seat. We’re not adverse to this sort of thing, it’s just a matter of picking battles wisely.
I suppose it matters whether you think it’s more important to send a message to party bosses, or win as many elections as possible. There are times when each is necessary, and there are different methods of acocmplishing this. I think a lot of Republicans are sending a message to the party bosses in this manner; by no longer contributing to the fantastically incompetent NRSC, and instead donating directly to certain candidates. The Laffey/Chafee race, combined with “The Deal” from last year has really pushed this movement forward. In this way, a message gets sent, candidates who need it get help, and resources aren’t wasted on races we have no chance of winning.
Thanks for bringing up Schlesinger. It’s overdue, I think.
I think that Schlesinger is going to be key to a Lamont victory. If he can look good in debates, he’ll peel away some of Lieberman’s Republican support, and he isn’t going to take votes away from Lamont.
I suggest that the Lamont campaign emphasize principle, and talk about respecting Schlesinger as a principled man, even though he’s wrong on the issues, as opposed to Lieberman, whose only guiding principle seems to be the advancement of his own career.