
Article I, Section 9, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution states as follows:
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
It expressly forbids suspension of the writ of habeas corpus except under very specific and highly limited circumstances -- and as we are neither dealing with a case of rebellion or invasion at the time of this attempted enactment of this torture law in Congress, I am really wondering on what leg they propose to stand when arguing constitutionality at the first legal challenge to this law.
And if it is deemed unconstitutional, as it is likely to be, then all of this effort will have been for what? Congressional GOP and Bush Administration CYA? Well, that's a fantastic use of the public's time and money, isn't it? I know, how about we do the job correctly and thoughtfully instead of just rushing something out the door.
A later US Supreme Court case, one that is truly seminal in terms of the understanding of the writ of habeas and its application under United States legal precedents -- Ex Parte Milligan -- states as follows:
The two remaining questions in this case must be answered in the affirmative. The suspension of the privilege of the [71 U.S. 2, 131] writ of habeas corpus does not suspend the writ itself. The writ issues as a matter of course; and on the return made to it the court decides whether the party applying is denied the right of proceeding any further with it. (emphasis mine)
Here's a question: how, exactly, does Huckleberry Graham and John McCain and John Warner and the whole of the Bush Administration think that the writ of habeas corpus, a history of legal precedents in civilian and military courts, and the rule of law can just be thrown out the window for these detainees without the Supreme Court and other courts taking a peek at the constitutionality -- or lack thereof -- of this proposed mess of a law?
And are we, as a nation, willing to just hang on to a large number of people who were delivered into our custody by tribal rivals who wanted a bounty that we were more than willing to pay, but for which we got some guy whose family had a long-standing feud going with the tribe next door and no connection to al qaeda whatsoever? Because more than 90% of the detainees were not picked up by US soldiers on the battlefield -- and we've just been keeping them locked in a cell without fully ascertaining charges or status ever since.
Would you put up with that for five years if this were your husband or brother? With no charges filed? With no proof of questionable activity? With nothing but the say of some other random person who you never get to confront because the United States government won't even tell you the accusations levelled against you to give you an opportunity to defend yourself? WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS!
Sure, there are questions as to applicability of US Constitutional standards being applied to non-US citizens who have been classified by the Administration as "enemy combatants," but there is a long history of precedent under the UCMJ of the writ of habeas corpus being applied to military tribunal proceedings that the Bush Administration and its enablers in Congress are asking us to simply forget. (As though you can simply wave a magic wand and *poof* legal precendents simply do not matter.)
When the Senate Judiciary Committee held its hearing on Monday with regard to habeas issues, I was amazed at how passionately and how bluntly the witnesses laid out their thoughts on the matter. That there were only three Senators in attendance was appalling enough -- but that such substantial questions of constitutionality are being brushed aside in the rush to enact this torture bill to provide political cover going into the November elections for both the President and the Republican party -- consequences and implications for our national reputation and the Constitution, the rule of law, and our system of legal precedents be damned -- is appalling, and that is the understatement of the year.
So, here's my question for all of those so-called conservatives out there who hop up and down about "activist judges" and the need for "strict construction" when it comes to Constitutional principles: why aren't you standing up and screaming about this abomination against the United States Constitution, too? Or is it too much to ask that the principles you conveniently spouted during the Schiavo mess only meant something to you when you thought they'd be worth some political traction with your coveted segment of public opinion?
Where are the patriots?
(For an extended discussion of martial law issues and Ex Parte Milligan, see here.)
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Good morning, a great day for democracy!
Cuz the IOKIYAR principle is in full effect! It’s ok if you’re a Republican. Principles, we don’t need no stinkin’principles!
Christy,
I’m heading off for work but before I go, I want to thank you for the work you are doing. You do a fantastic job of helping us non-legal types understand the issues and what’s at stake. And, you suggest constructive ways to counter BushCo’s power grab and give us the tools we need to act.
Being a mother of two, I remember what it’s like to have a little one at home - and appreciate how hard you are working to provide us with these excellent pieces.
Thanks.
Today’s L.A. Times:
Detainee Bill Now Goes to Senate
The House measure bars torture but not specific techniques. Approval is expected and appears to be part of the GOP’s election strategy.
WASHINGTON — The House on Wednesday approved administration-backed rules for interrogating and trying terrorism suspects, a key component of the national security agenda that Republicans aim to showcase in their fight to hold onto Congress.
The Senate is expected to follow suit today, making passage of the military tribunal bill one of Congress’ final acts before lawmakers recess this weekend to hit the campaign trail. Barring complications, the legislation will reach President Bush’s desk for a high-profile signing ceremony in the run-up to the November elections.
http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....-headlines
Hunter on unconstitutionality of this bill:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/27/17247/6012
Are we going to let them have the Congress for another two years and approve another Supreme Ct. appointment?
Fiona, Fitz and Fobe. So sorry, Kobe.
Bush&Co. claim that we have been “invaded” and they now have a clause in the torture bill that says that GWoT is the legal equivalent of real war. So, they have no problem with this constitutional restriction.
Mind you, I don’t buy their argument.
Two articles worth a look
Baltmore Sun discusses a little noticed provision in Presidential power in the torture bill, while the San Bernadino Sun reports that Border Patrol personnel are forbidden to speak with members of Congress
Baltimore Sun discussion of increase in Pres power
Border Patrol forbidden to speak with Congresspersons
Great day for democracy? You meant the day democracy died don’t you? Will I be accused of giving assistance to the enemy if I disagree with George Bush now? He’s the decider, right? He’s the one who will have the power to decide if I’m an enemy combatant. My biggest problem is I have Bill Nelson in Florida as my senator. I’d have to vote for Catherine Harris to get even with him. Damn, can’t win for losing. Bye democracy, it was nice while it lasted.
Peace,
PeeJ
“They” propose to stand on the fact that the USA was attacked… a “kind” of invasion and therefore they can do “anything” that “they” see fit to “defend” the people.
A complete fabrication.. but “they” are getting awa with it.. because “they” have made too many of “us” skeered sh*tless.
Let’s go shopping!!!!!!!
Take a peek at http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HI29Aa01.html
Alternative way.
dab at 3 — thanks. It’s a dreary morning here, but I think everyone should pay attention to what Senator Byrd does today. I think there are a few things in the works from Levin and Byrd and a few others, and I’m grateful that there are still a few maneuvers left.
Also, if you haven’t done so, please take a moment to thank Sen. Pat Leahy — he has been truly fighting the good fight on this for months, has been at every Judiciary Committee hearing on FISA and torture and habeas and everything else in between. And he deserves a big round of applause from all of us.
If in fact we were “invaded” there’s more proof that they are not keeping us secure.
Constitution
R.I.P.
Christy, you have more faith in the current (and future) Supreme Court than I do.
Obviously, if they guy they arrest is a foreigner, it was an invasion. If the guy they arrest is an American, it was a rebellion.
There are so many things unconstitutional about this horrid piece of shit, er legislation (can you say, ex post facto?) that some people are considering voting for it, thinking that that is the “safe” vote (safe because it provides cover but is meaningless in the end, you know, like Lieberman always does).
We need to convince the congresscritters that there is no safe vote but NO on this abomination.
I’ve decided that they are willing to have the Court rule as unconstitutional the provisions relating to habeas and torture, as long as the immunity provision stands. If they should win in the Court (that could be more of a sure thing if there’s another vacancy), that would just be icing on the cake.
And if it is deemed unconstitutional, as it is likely to be, then all of this effort will have been for what? Congressional GOP and Bush Administration CYA?
People have been using the term “kabuki” to describe this whole farce, but there has to be a better descriptive term for this level of tragic farce.
It ain’t over yet folks… keep battling until the clock says 0:00.
“Where are the patriots?” Indeed.
Slightly off the thread . . . I’m getting a whiff of burnt toast from Ned’s kitchen. So it seems that CT (my birthplace) voters would rather do their ‘patriotic’ duty by re-electing LIEberman??? [see Quinipiac]
I watched the video on Atrios of Obama and was sorely disappointed. It seems that they don’t want to mention the “T” word as if it is unseemly. Habeas is another matter, that they will debate.
Am I missing something? Aren’t both of these part of the bill?
And any help we were hoping for from Susan Collins seems to be gone. I’m listening to her talk about FEMA. WTF?
Look, folks, the federal courts will get whatever bill comes out almost immediately with a challenge and, if as I suspect, that challenge upholds the constitution rather than an unconstitutional attempt at an end-run as they did in Hamdi and Hamdan and all of the rest in the last couple of years, we’ll be back to square one.
Which makes it all the more important to get the GOP out of control of both houses of Congress between now and then. This is one huge ongoing philosophical battle. We need to win the little skirmishes going forward. I’m as pissed as anyone else, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let this little election-year manuever manipulate me from working my ass off on campaigns between now and November. Karl Rove can kiss my ass.
Excuse my ignorance all but if this bill passes in the Senate today, is it still possible for the supreme court to over rule it??
This is sooooo depressing to even see this piece of crap go this far!!!
I have been trying to find the words to complete this post for weeks but due to the huge amount of work that I am facing since the end of the holiday and, more than anything else, due to the depressing news coming out of the USA in the latest days, I have not been able to complete this task…
The latest developments are really heart-breaking and sad: the USA parliament is seriously considering to approve a bill that would “de-facto” legalize torture. Even after typing it down it seems to be such an unreal thing that I cannot wrap my mind around such fact: that sounds like a page out of a dark-fantasy book, one of those books painting a bleak and dark future where society as we know is, for all that matters dead, and fascism and fanaticism are the only way. It is such a staggering blow to anything I grow up believing “America” stands for (maybe naively, because as I wrote before reality can be a b**ch) that I even find very difficult to find the words to express my outrage and fury: the USA, for the good and for the bad, for people like me born in the western society (Italy specifically in my case) has always been the simbol of greater values (freedom, the sanctity of individual rights..).
This was the message coming out from your culture, from the books, the music, the movies (at least the good ones..): a flawed message maybe, never really fulfilled as it should have been, but that was the direction the majority of the USA, and with that the majority of the western civilization, was striving for. Today that is over: the USA, and the western world with it again, decided that in order to save themselves they should completely transform, they should become what they have always despised. Torture: how can possibly this be a matter of discussion? How is possible that there is no outrage and rejection from the public about such thing being even put on the table, openly discussed as acceptable? How can be that the mayor players in the government are quibbling about the choice of words to be used for allow the prisoners to be treated inhumanely without the tortures facing any consequences ? Please do not be mad at me: I know there are plenty of USA citizens that do recoil in disgust when facing such behaviors (and I have seen many of them protesting and taking a stand here in this great site and all over the left-leaning blogs) but as an overall your country seems to be apathetically let this thing happen, being lead around by the right wing noise machine and the appalling USA media outlets (liberal media my *ss!). Italy is a moderate (sigh!) country where the majority of people would fall in the category you would call “conservative” but be sure that if such discussion would arise here there would be an unanimous condemnation. My father, an university professor, four times elected the dean of different faculties, 60 something, is a very good example: he has always been pro-American (he was born in Italy during WW2 and the USA for him will always be the country that saved us by the folly of fascism) and, to my disgust (sigh!) has even accepted (even if wavering) the islamo-fascist bullshit (…Europe has an high immigration from the north of Africa and that can be scary…). But be assured that this latest development disgust him as much as it disgust me: where is the difference between our civilization and the terrorist if we descent so low? Where is the high moral ground (which I do not believe we, as western world, have by the way…) that allows us to act as we are better than the rest of the others?
What even strikes me as more absurd is the lack of real protest from the religious part of the political aisle. Just to be clear, I am not a religious person but I know plenty of people who have a strong believe and faith in the ideas of religion and live by the principles that come with that faith: those people will never let something like that go, will never shrug something like that off on the base that it is something that do not affect “them” but only the “others”. The fact that the overwelming reaction among those how declare themselves religious is indifference (if not a cowardly refuse to take a stand) seems to be marking the whole religious movement as hypocrital and false: even as a non-religious person I cannot believe that, I cannot persuade himself that the coscience of these people will not come knocking and haunting them for such an immoral process of individual rights erosion as the one they are letting happen in their country (but then again USA is the only civilized country thatstill has dead penalty as an option…).
So what then ? I have seen many of you people getting as depressed and pissed off as I am (Mary in one of previous threads for example comes to mind… I hope you did come back…): should we just give up and let the USA and the world with it go to ****ing ***dy **ll? The short and clear answer is NO!!! We fight this madness all the way, we never let them get away with it, we take a stand regardless of the fact if the people in charge do it: because this is a basic matter of morality, of faithfulness to the basic principles of humanity and respect and there is no space for personal discomfort and tiredness in this battle… we kick, scream and fight and even if the cowards in charge let this happen we get back to them and make them pay for this. There is no alternative for your country and for what is left of our society and culture : that’s why I am using “we” instead of “you”, because even from over here in a different country, I feel this battle as a battle that cannot be let go, it does not matter how bad the situation sounds and looks. From my side I will put as much pressure as I can on my representatives, my union and my government to try and remember to your own government what used to be the legacy of your country they seems to have so swiftly forgotten (that should be the role of a real ally in a situation like this).
And you know what? I am sure that you (and with that I mean all the great persons I can see posting here and all over the sane part of the blog-world, the liberals that are not afraid to take a center stage on this matter) can pull it off and ram this madness down the throats of the cowards looking for the easy way out.
Ok I have ranted long enough, thanks for your patience (if you really get to read all of it…)
Peace everybody.
Hate to be cynical (grin), but remember the “Mayberry Machiavellis” comment from way back?
Nothing has changed. It is all about politics. The country can be destroyed as long as the Rethugs can continue robbing the treasury.
. . .show me aneurysm !
Border Patrol forbidden to speak with Congresspersons
http://www.sbsun.com/ci_4401381
MUST be sent to . . .
Lou Dobbs
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?9
NOW !
great catch windje
CHS - typo alert
long-standing fued
Kimba!
Mini-gulags, hired guns and lobbyists http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HI28Ak01.html
Christy,
OT, but relevant to a past post.
The headline in our local paper yesterday was
“2 Sago miners reportedly commit suicide”
Both men had jobs that included watching for safety hazards inside the mine, but neither had been blamed and one, John Nelson Boni, “told investigators he had detected low levels of methane in that area five days earlier and reported the findings to a supervisor who was not alarmed.”
…”But those who knew the men say there is little doubt the tragedy haunted them.”
R.I.P William Lee Chisholm and John Nelson Boni.
This may have been covered earlier, if so, I apologize. I do not want to hijack today’s post and did not post yesterday because the issues were so important. This issue is important too. Hopefully with the Democrats in control, mine safety can be enhanced, because it will certainly not happen on the Republican watch.
Christy Hardin Smith @
11
I much appreciate any and all efforts to block this atrocity.
That said, I have to ask a non-rhetorical question. If Leahy has been fighting so hard to block this, how come the vote to limit debate was “unanimous”?
Well, Christy, you have certainly put your finger on two of the key issues at play here: Rebellion and Public Safety. If any “citizens” decide to rebel against the new all-Jesus all the time federal policy or the Republicon’s massive colonialization effort now underway in the M.E. they will forego Habeas rights. Ditto is in store for them if they are deemed a public safety nuisance for disrupting the status quo by blogging or demonstrating against immoral or illegal policies.
OT — Raw has up that a group of DEMS is mounting a “Lieberman is a good Dem” campaign because they feel he is being unfairly targeted. OK, and should we do away with state elections of our Congress people while we are at it? Better that they are appointed at the Federal level so they will have more “accountability.”
I’m going to be away all day, but I’ve posted some quick thoughts about the torture vote here. And in the post below that is a quick write-up of the Democracy, not Theocracy event I attended last night.
Jefferson and Co. defined this new nation by enumerating the rights any free people ought to possess, the abuses the enemy had heaped upon the people of the United States, and the huge gap between the two.
Bush and Co. define this nation by declaring their willingness to accept the moral level of its enemies.
To repeat: We are better than this!
“. . .The fact that the overwelming reaction among those how declare themselves religious is indifference (if not a cowardly refuse to take a stand) seems to be marking the whole religious movement as hypocrital and false. . .”
Kimba: George Bush owes his presidency to the religious right in this country. They are 18-20 percent of the GOP. They love this legislation. That’s why John McCain, Lindsay Graham and John Warner caved in on this bill.
Dorgan on now using morning business time to talk about habeas, supporting Specter amendment.
Christy, a quesstion, (I was off line yesterday so sorry if this was asked/covered)
Will the Specter amendment fix habeas or is it more kabuki?
Wigwam at 29 — did you ever stop to think about the fact that the alternative the GOP was offering was no debate at all? And, since they control the floor rules, that’s pretty much what was going to happen? Does no one ever stop to think that these folks are severely constrained by very archaic rules and regs, and that the Dems are further constrained by not being the party in power so they have really no control whatsoever?
It took Specter leaning on things to get any debate on this at all, along with the Dems. That we are having debate is a huge step forward, to be completely honest.
/rant on
I have been on a personal inward journey for the last several months, defining myself and my beliefs, values, etc. One part of that includes realizing that I am a part of the whole (citizen) that is our nation. What our government does reflects on ME as a person. It absolutely disgusts me that this debate is even occuring in this great nation of ours. And I will not and cannot sit by without my voice loudly proclaiming that this is WRONG!
I am standing by, ready to fight today’s fight.
/rant off
Remembering back to Federal Courts class in law school …
Weren’t there two types of Habeus? The weaker common law kind guaranteed by the Constitution and the stronger statutory variety? I remember the AntiTerrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 weakened the statutory form of Habeus. My guess is that this bill may only be Constitutionally capable of altering (read ‘wrecking’) the statutory form.
Of course, if I remember my Fed Courts class well, the common law variety wasn’t all that hot, unfortunately.
RevDeb,
I took little comfort in the Obama speech as well, but about half way through I realized he was actually addressing and attempting to reach less informed colleagues in the chamber - IOW, it wasn’t the usual grandstanding or some feint for the cameras . . . and in the absence of some much needed fire and passion on the issue, he made ‘practical’ arguments that may in fact give some ‘permission’ to go against the tide - not that they would, but it looks to me that like that is what he was doing
So do we have a timeline for what happens when today in the Seante? Any ideas of CSPAN coverage, etc.
Also, from what I’m reading it seems that the Specter amendment to the bill MIGHt make it through. If this happens, everything has to go back to the House, right? Would I be correct in asserting that if the Specter Amendment (or any other) goes through, that it will be unlikely anything will be completed before recess?
MSM on this issue is in essence playing dead. The NYTimes has a terrific editorial, but nothing by way of journalism until page 20. If it is page one, people tend to pay attention.
Dorgan on the floor of the senate– he is explaining habeas corpus with the example of a Japanese American incarcerated during that other dark time in our history…
MM must be so happy today.
kimba1970– thank you for your passion and care!
RevDeb at 34 — it doesn’t go as far as I would like, but it is much better than what the bill has at the moment. The Specter amendment, as I read it, gives some habeas protection after a year of captivity — which at least allows for a challenge — under the current bill as proposed, court oversight is stripped altogether, which is unconscionable.
This is one of those situations where, as a lawyer who has worked both sides of the criminal trial fence, I want to just scream at all of these elected officials to get their heads out of their asses. But in my mind, our best bet on this is the habeas argument, which is why I’ve been pushing it so hard.
Christy - you might want to look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus
Listening to James Sensenbrenner’s comments in the House yesterday, I noticed that he alluded to a distinction between constitutional and statutory writs of habeas corpus. How would you describe the difference between them?
drinksforall @
21
As I read it, this bill has a severability clause, which says that if any part of it is ruled unconstitutional, all of the other parts remain in force.
I have no idea whether such a clause carries any weight, but I thought it was an interesting legal trick.
Stephen at 43 — I would argue that the constitutional provision applies here, because these prisoners are captured via our involvement in armed conflict in an international arena. The Statutory habeas, as I understand it, is designed to deal with federal criminal proceedings. The constitutional variety arises out of our military/national actions. But this is not an area of the law which is argued very often, to be perfectly frank, and it’s open to interpretation on this.
cbl
Yes, he did seem to be expounding on thoughts that could logically diffuse the bill. I’m wondering since this is so bizarre altogether how effective all in all can that be? I don’t know. This is above my pay grade and out of my area of expertise.
Dorgan just made a great point that Americans traveling abroad are non-citizens of wherever they travel which, if other countries followed our lead would make us all susceptible to something like this.
Wigwam at 44 — that’s actually a fairly common construct for laws these days, due to the high instance of constitutional challenge to controversial provisions.
Dodd up now talking about the Nuremberg trials…
(no amnesty man– stand up for Jackson and your father now!)
The suspension clause is a tricky thing. It only applies to the Supreme Court’s habeas jurisdiction. becaus eth elower federal courts are creations of Congress, entire areas of jurisdiction can be removed from them.
For example, the Congress could say, “No lower federal court can consider any petitions for habeas corpus” and that would be OK.
What Congress cannot do is say, “Courts can hear habeas cases, but not habeas cases from blue eyed individuals.” That would be an equal protection violation and also violate the previous Supreme Court reading that once a court and jurisdiction are created for a class, they may not be restricted in particulars.
Second, Congress (or the President) may not Restrict the Supreme Court’s original Habeas Corpus jurisdiction which is a creation of the constitution — that is what the suspension clause has been read to mean.
So, does the proposed legislation violate the first principle? It seems to. It does not wholly remove habeas jursidiction from consideration by lower courts — just certain classes of cases.
Does it violate the suspension clause? That is up to our Supreme Court — they have historically used many techniques not top squarely face the issue (the Felker case I discussed yesterday? comes to mind). This statute may require them to consider the issue. There are four certain votes against allowing suspension (Breyer, Ginsburg, Souter and Stevens). One likely vote with that group (Kennedy). One certain vote for suspension(Thomas). It is very difficult to see where Alito, Roberts and Scalia (in alphabetical order) would come out on this question. All in all, pretty good odds to save the constitution.
Pray for all the justices — either to live or to see the light and understand the error of their ways.
Thanks Christy.
It is hard to think clearly about all of this it is so OUTRAGEOUS. My right eye has started twitching again and I can’t stop it. A sure sign of stress. Been going on for a couple of days and getting worse.
Dodd sounding good. Quoting Jackson from Nuremberg.
“…we are neither dealing with a case of rebellion or invasion…”
Really? The Constitution doesn’t say who has to be invaded, or where the rebellion has to be. As long as there is an invasion or rebellion anywhere on the planet, habeas may be suspended in the USA.
May be — of course, we can also choose not to.
But that would be nutty, according to Sen. John Cornyn. His was the only speech I caught on CSPAN, as he tried to draw a distinction between good ol’ American criminals (like Charlie Manson, I’m sure he was thinking) who deserve habeas, and evildoers like bin Laden’s driver (or “bodyguard”), Hamdan, for whom habeas is too good.
Dodd talking about torture. THANK YOU!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 35
If I understand correctly, that’s what’s called “the nuclear option.” I hadn’t heard of that threat in this case, but of course it’s always a possibility.
The Patriots play Sunday in Cincinatti.
Has Lieberman had his 15 minutes yet?
Christy,
thanks so very much for this post and all the others on the issue -
as someone old enough to take civics in school - some faint voice was reminding me (more like screaming) of Article I Section 9, and a teacher who preached to us all of it’s sacrosanct nature -
oh sweet jesus, Go Dodd, Go !
Chris Dodd is peeved — and kicking some ass — on the Senate floor this morning. Booyah!
Here’s my thank you to Pat Leahy:
Dear Senator Leahy,
I wanted to commend you for your hard work and powerful voice, fighting for the rule of law and for human rights. On the FISA issues and the horrible torture bill, your work has been a beacon of hope for progressives.
Thank you, and keep fighting!
Warner is totally full of Sh*t.
Dodd gets it. Big thank you’s owed to him.
Warner is a disgrace today– he is defending the indefensible.
Warner - whatta ‘ho
Christy & brave FDLers–thanks for watching & reporting the hearings. My BP won’t allow me to watch. I’ve been spending my time so far calling the Senators & letting loose on them (very politely though…)
Thanks for all you do CHS. Up on Digby “Rogue Presidency” by tristero and the NY Times Editorial “Rushing Off a Cliff” have more on this.
send him all your love
http://dodd.senate.gov/
Christy Hardin Smith @ 47
It’s a standard disclaimer found in virtually every piece of legislation and legal contract, i.e., that is, if one clause is invalidated by the courts, everything else remains in force.
BTW- my contribution to my local congressman’s re-election campaign. Original banner graphic taken from his official website:
http://www.bgladd.com/Congress.....orture.jpg
_
Feingold, Clinton and Kerry and one other coming up.
Sessions, Kyl and Graham on the sicko side. Cornyn too. blech
In 1787, on September 28, the Constitutional Convention sent the product of their labors to the states for consideration and ratification.
In 1850, on September 28, the US Navy and US merchant vessels abolished flogging.
In 2006, on September 28, Congress is trying to ignore the former and bring back the latter.
Rev Deb @ 50– “My right eye has started twitching again…” I just had to let you know that the same thing has been happening to me & I just haven’t been able to figure out why. I hope it doesn’t keep up till November…
RevDeb @
13
not yet, although it may come to pass…
so long as there is life there is hope…
Sen. Dodd’s phone numbers:
202-224-2823
202-224-1083 (fax
806-258-6940 (CT)
Let’s thank him.
Fucking Kyl — he knows that the Supreme Court clearly said that they left the non-citizen question open in Hamdi because it wasn’t factually applicable in that case. I swear to high heaven, I would check and re-check every brief this man filed because I would not trust any characterization he made on what the law stated without checking it out and then checking again myself. Jackass.
Peterr @ 67
Er, 1797 is much later than the date it went into effect.
What would you say to an amendment, September 28, 1787?
egregious @ 72
So noted. Allow me to revise my earlier remarks, under the “five minute rule.”
Thanks! (Where’s that coffee? . . .)
grandmatoo @
68
Could it possibly be nystagmus? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nystagmus
Yay, Specter — the O’Connor language smackdown. hehehehe “Every individual…”
along those lines, I was just sitting here hoping to God one of the upcoming Dems would publicly point out this is all at the behest of blazing incompetents who have yet to get anything right - strategically, tactically, legally, diplomatically, so why in the hell would they go along with them now ?!?!?
yeah, I know this all about lemmings and the election - but please someone make this point to the cameras !
oh crap, Specter is making Christy’s argument - Mr. Ledbetter would be so proud
So Joe is not going to address this issue?
Leahy up!
Although off topic, this commentary is of sufficient importance to mention here: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092706B.shtml
not unless we’re talking about something important, like blowing the combatants
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 74
I don’t think so. Just the muscle twitch in the lower lid, not the eye movement itself. (unless you count the rapid back and forth movement required to read these threads :-)
I don’t think Lieberliar will dare to speak up– he’ll let his sistah Susan do the heavy lifting and then quietly vote with the dems for cover.
There is no way that he does not support this fascist legislation– he’s probably salivating over it.
The NYT has an excellent lead editorial today, and in addition to condemning the Congress and the Adminisration for “rushing off a cliff” concludes by saying:
The editorial also lists all the egregious faults of the bill, hitting virtually every point that we, Glenn Greenwald, Marty Ledeerman and others have been making. In summarizing the bill, the editorial notes,
The editorial concludes that there is not enough time to fix this awful bill, so . . .
Even if SCOUTS strikes down most of this bill, the pardon provisions will stand.
I believe that the pardon provisions are the only thing that matters to them. I don’t even believe they don’t care about the “tough” trreatment of detainees to obtain information, because I simply don’t believe they care about using that information. It’s why I think they will be happy to swallow any poison pill we might think to tack onto this bill.
I think that in a couple of years, we will actually need to come to a pardon of this kind in order to pry these people out of the White House and find out what happened. That’s how these sorts of amnesties (e.g. in Chile, or South Africa) generally work. When we do grant the pardon, I want to make sure that we are getting something in return.
the publicans are starting to eat their own.
william f. buckley jr. isn’t buying george “macaca” allen’s act at all.
.
.
Morning everyone!
Over at Kos one of our NextAgenders has posted a truly excellent diary on torture. Aphra Behn outlines the stories of two ordinary American women who were imprisoned by the Japanese during WWII and tortured with the sorts of techniques that Bush “doesn’t consider torture”.
Aphra is our resident historian who has posted some excellent works on Canadian and women’s history. I hope you’ll read and show her some love. This diary lays things out in a way that anyone can get that torture/Bush interrogation method is not only horrendous but more importantly, IT DOESN’T WORK.
It is story well worth sharing with your congress critters and anyone else you know. Hope you will.
Nice post Redd. Although maybe we should modify the “we are better than this” to read “we SHOULD BE better than this.” As a collective, “we”, the electorate, have been voting in these un-housebroken toddlers sometimes called Senators and Congressional representatives for the past 12 years! (My elected representatives are confident, or arrogant, enough to have ceased replying to my letters and e-mails.) And despite the immense damage they (and of course Shrub’s administration) have done and continue to do, the Repubs are likely to keep control of at least one, or both, of the houses of Congress. How is this even remotely possible unless “we” have lost our moral compass? My fear? Maybe “we” are no longer better than this.
Leahy is doing a good job of laying out the potential tangential consequences of this bill — things that a whole host of those rushing to pass this have not thought of, I’d say. The Senate is supposed to be the deliberative body — not the rush to judgment body — of the legislature.
Thank you’s to Leahy
202-224-4242
202-224-3479 (fax)
802-863-2525 (VT)
After Trent Lott uttered these words:
“”Are we gonna ask ‘em please, pretty please? When they let on like some of the technigues have been used are such horrible things…being threatened by a dog? Come on! Have they never delivered laundry to someone’s house and had a dog come after them?”
I knew that this country has lost its mind.
If passage of this bill IS nothing more than Karl’s October Surprise come a little early, a means of casting Democrats as “weak on terror,” then that in and of itself should be more than enough to cast the Republicans and their enablers out to sea to be devoured by sharks.
Leahy quoting from “A Man for All Seasons.”
Good one.
Well, the obvious answer from the administration is, the public Safety requires it…
That’s wrong of course. This is an excuse to nullify the Bill of Rights. The easiest way to do so is to start by targetting feared foreigners.
Senate bill today:
SEC. 7. TREATY OBLIGATIONS NOT ESTABLISHING GROUNDS FOR CERTAIN CLAIMS.
(a) In General- No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions, or any protocols thereto, in any habeas or civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States, is a party, as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories.
S 3930.8(a)(3) INTERPRETATION BY THE PRESIDENT- (A) As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions and to promulgate higher standards and administrative regulations for violations of treaty obligations which are not grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
_____
Still looking for the retroactive CYA clause.
BobbyG @
93
It’s a few pages before the end.
Christy Hardin Smith @
11
glad to hear it, ‘cuz while i appreciate dodd’s and leahy’s passionate rhetoric - words alone are not enough - action is required.
Leahy
“This. Is. So. Wrong.”
o/t
Macaca -
have written to Webb campaign - reminding them of the apt analogy to this Al Capp character to Macaca
http://deniskitchen.com/Mercha......phogbound
fyi - Capp was a reactionary dog, but he got Ol Phogbound right
O.T. Ameriblog has up a piece that the House has put the cell phone privacy issue on the table for consideration again before recess, this time however coupled with the need to support Bush’s domestic spying program. Anyone else know anything about this?
leahy - this congress has not had the courage to uphold it’s own oath of office
Wouldn’t the whitehouse just say that the 9/11 attacks constituted an Invasion, and that they’re still in the process of trying to beat it back? And the mere existence of this webpage, in the minds of the likes of Cheney, probably constitutes a Rebellion, so there you have it: all bases covered.
Richmond at 98 — the House is trying to push through a bunch of legislation at the moment, but the Senate doesn’t have the companion pieces on the agenda as of today — which basically means that the House is trying to look like they are doing something for cover for campaigning at the last minute as far as I can tell.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 11
And not just Leahy. From a NYT article, Legislation advances on terrorism trials there were several Dems who spoke out forcefully:
. . .
Bottom line: the vast majority of Dems are opposing this bill, and for the right reasons. The Dem leadership is opposing this bill. This is a Republican bill, and Bush’s bill. And keep in mind that House Dems were not involved in the negotiations/drafting of this bill and they were not allowed to offer any amendments. The Senate Dems also weren’t allowed in the negotiations on what the bill would contain, and they were forced to trade extended debate just to get permission to offer a small number of amendments. The Republicans have a hammerlock on the process, and normal democratic rules do not apply.
Know your friends; know your enemies, and don’t get the two confused.
love hearing RUBBERSTAMP ! RUBBERSTAMP ! at the top of a Senator’s lungs
another gem -
spreading democracy abroad, and gutting it here at home
yeah we all know that, but sure is great to hear it on the floor of US Senate
Dan at 100 — you’ll pardon me if I think the Supreme Court of the United States requires more proof than some constitutional analysis at FDL for evidence of a rebellion. Thus far, the thin analysis of John Yoo is batting a zero with the high bench.
selise @
95
Me too!
Thanks for pointing out that part of Christy’s comment. I had missed it, and I have to hope that there is some delaying trickery that is stil available to us — there’s no way in hell that this abomination will get voted down in any body with a majority of Republicans.
Parkinson’s third law: “Delay is the deadliest form of denial.”
From the NY Times today:
_____
These are some of the bill’s biggest flaws:
Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.
The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published.
Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.
Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.
Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.
Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.
Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.
_____
Squares with my reading of this POS. Patently unconstitutional, but Bush could give a shit. Buys him time.
Quick drive-by comment. Just back from the U.K. The constitutional nonsense that BushCo. has been spewing for the last six years has spooked Labour enough so that one part of Gordon Brown’s platform is to establish a written constitution for England. This is extraordinary.
The real adults understand the stakes involved for democratic republics. At a time when the media and elected officials are more suspectible to spin than ever, having clear, unambiquous — but at the same time adapatable — law to guide countries is essential.
LEAHY is firing on ALL CYLINDERS!
Christy: Thanks - for juggling all the political apples!
scarecrow - i don’t know… if the senate dem leadership was really, actively opposing this bill… i think it would be obvious… and i just don’t see it.
Well, pups, unless something unique happens in the next few hours in the Senate, al Queda won’t have to hate us for our freedoms anymore.
Ed*ard Teller @ 111
Yeah, this is how they are going to win the GWOT
Does anyone ever stop to consider that GW ChuckleFuck and Co. are going to do exactly what they want to do? Regardless of the law, regardless of the Constitution, regardless of public opinion?
They’ve been doing it all along. Kinda like those little smug bullies in our youth, saying “Yeah, what are YOU going to do about it?”. Or “So SUE me.”.
The good news is that they are having a much harder time doing these things without public examination/criticism. And this trend is due in part to the cry from the Netroots for accountability.
I know we are all making a difference. The crimes against America continue and will, but the big picture is refocusing.
Think I’ll call me a Senator or 50.
selise at 110 — beyond Leahy, Levin, Byrd, Kerry, Clinton, Reid, Dodd, Feingold and all the others who ahve been working a number of angles on this bill where they can push effectively…what do you want?
Feingold up now.
BobbyG –
Yes, but this does not, I think, strip the courts of the ultimate power to determine the validity of the executive’s interpretations. I think Marbury vs Madison held otherwise. The ultimate power to interpret statutes rests with the judiciary. While Congress can give the executive the authority to spell our further regulations consistent with the intent of Congress, as shown in the statute itself (this happens all the time), I don’t think that as a constitutional matter, a statute can divest the judiciary of the power to determine whether the executive interpreted the statute correctly.
gotta go, will try to fax/call as my schedule allows -
IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO DO THE RIGHT THING !
Have a FDL day
selise @ 110
Perhaps it’s because you want Senator Reid to be speaking? The leadership has decided who they want to speak, given the limited time for debate alloted to each side for each amendment. The fact that the Dems who are speaking are (1) all opposed to the bill and (2) all well informed about the bill and (3) all very articulate in their opposition — all tell me that the leadership is behind this.
I don’t want Reid speaking (or Mary Landrieux or Nelson, etc). I want Levin and Leahy and Dorgan etc., and that’s who we’re getting. Our best feet forward.
scarecrow @
116
_____
Agreed. I’ve said all along that Article III Section 2 renders this unconstitutional. But, as a practical matter, adjudication of that is a long way offand all Bush needs is 5 votes to be crowned King. This buys him time.
Have to put Cornyn on “mute” - he’s an ass of the first order.
The LA Times, this morning:
Don’t Suspend Habeas Corpus
Any bill that denies that basic right to detainees should be rejected.
September 28, 2006
EVEN IF HE SAYS SO HIMSELF, Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is an expert on constitutional law. So his warning that the Supreme Court is likely to invalidate pending legislation that would create military commissions to try terrorist suspects deserves a hearing — in the Senate.
The problem with the legislation — even with the improvements forced on the White House by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) — is that it would make it impossible for alleged enemy combatants to file what is known as a writ of habeas corpus, which allows them to challenge the legality of their imprisonment.
Who has been writing for the NYT op eds lately? It’s been like a tiny ray of reason and sense.
Statutory Habeas.
The Rasul case held that statutory habeas DID apply to the detainees at GITMO. Tight ruling, but that gave rise to the raft of habeas cases filed.
As a reaction to Rasul, the so-called “anti-torture” bill sponsored by Graham and Levin carved out Guantanamo as a site where the habeas statute does not apply. It also provided a first, much weaker, shot at trying to provide amnesty and it provided that there would be a kind of one-shot judicial review of Combatant Status Review Tribunals and convictions by military commissions - but that one shot review would be limited to the question of whether or not the proceedings (CSRTs or Commissions) complied with the Geneva Conventions.
In Hamdan, the majority of the Supreme Court ducked the jurisdiction/habeas issue by finding that the way the statute was worded, all EXISTING habeas cases could go forward and only habeas relating to new proceedings was stripped by the language of the statute. [This is where the Graham-Cornyn “insert” into the record came about - they tried to make it look as if the legislative history indicated all cases, despite the language of the statute, and Justice Stevens called them on it]
Since the case before them, Hamdan, had already been filed prior to the legislation, they went on. They did not address the issue Imman raises about equal protection and doing a black hole carve out; but the minority Justices (and very likely Roberts, who abstained) all seemed very comfortable with a) the carve out, and even b) that under their general constitutional habeas they should not interfere with the CIC and COngressional decisions during a time of armed conflict.
Now the habeas cases have been taken off hold, even before this pro-torture legislation started up, DOJ has been arguing in favor of continuing to hold and torture people who were rounded up clearly as mistakes, on the basis that Hamdan doesn’t mean what it said it meant. That was all just a delay tactic for this piece of legislation to come around.
If the stories of those habeas cases came out, it would be “embarassing” for Gov and heaven forbid our country should embarass incompetent sadists when instead we can just bury people alive in GITMO and make them into hate filled automatons. I’m so proud.
I can’t call Leahy’s office again bc I cried and choked like a little girl whose puppy just died in her arms and the poor girl who answered his phones for him got very concerned.
Could one of the legal experts elaborate on what Professor Foland said at 7:28 am “Even if SCOUTS strikes down most of this bill, the pardon provisions will stand.”.
How come?
That’s alarming if true!
Fresh thread, gang.
From yesterday and the day before:
“We’re going to do what we can to limit the amount of daylight between us and them on national security issues in order to neutralize this as a political issue,” a senior Democratic aide said.
If there’s no daylight between the Dems and the GOoPers on this, the people they’re trying to get to change parties won’t (’they’re all the same, so what difference does it make?’). What we need, as a country, is more daylight there, so people know there is a difference between the parties.
I used to go by N wall, perhaps a new name will bring better carma. I’ve been concerned about this bill, will it allow Bush and Co. off the hook?
I’ve been reading Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast, just finished the chapter The Conn which goes into voting machines and the other many ways voters lose their vote and it never counted, quite depressing the crime involved and the fact these practices may well continue to happen.
PJ Evans at 125 — as that is an anonymous quote from a “senior Democratic aide” — how do you know who is saying this, what their motive is, and why you should pay any attention whatsoever to what they are saying? I mean, honestly, let’s all keep our eyes on what IS going on with the floor of the Senate instead of what someone with an anonymous agenda wants us to believe is going on.
So far, the wording of this bill is an in-practice license to torture Americans who talk to foreign muslims. It’s a more sophisticated version of the Sedition Act, and segments off protections much like “discrimination pricing” segments values off as a marketing technique. The law is clear and fair: don’t have communications with anyone who communicates with foreign-born people who communicate with terrorists, and you’ll be just fine.
And don’t worry, if you make the mistake of supporting terrorists, habeus corpus is still there to protect you because you’ll be able to see the confession which was tortured out of you as the evidence against you in court. It’s the furthest thing from Stalinism, because your confession will be real, not forged. You will own it.
Christy - I understand the rules and constraints they are working with now. The problem is that Reid and Pelosi left, until now, any organized action.
IMO, the “sit back and snicker over Republican infighting” nonsense was stupid, inept, disorganized and truly shoddy politics and patriotism.
They had a lot of opportunities to make Arar high profile, to make the CIA analsyts high profile, to begin beating on the drum of making it very public knowledge that less than 10% of GITMO detainees were battlefield or hostilities related detentions; that Arar and el-Masri prove innocent kidnaps and tortures. The could have been high profile demanding hearings on who and how many innocent people Bush and his incompetence over country policies have damaged. They could have seized the framing on this, the most important issue I can imagine, at any time.
They made a conscious decision not to, because they did not want to be talking national security. They made a choice to let this develop as it has. That’s my firm belief and I understand you don’t share it and that they are now in a less than great position. But it is why I am so angry. fwiw.
United States of America
Born: 07/04/1776
Died: 09/28/2006
RIP
RMD1035 — I call bullshit. And that sort of short-sighted Eeyore crap is what hands Karl Rove election victories. So you’ll pardon me if I don’t buy into a bunch of defeatist crap today or any day, thanks.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 113
well, maybe there’s stuff that’s been going on i’ve missed (or misunderstand)… and if so, i’d be oh, so happy to be corrected.
but… i haven’t seen the leadership fighting these issues over the years…. or even over last weekend… and now i want to see action in addition to words. i wanted to see more than leahy (bless him) show up for monday’s senate judiciary committee hearing (kennedy gets a pass from me because of a death in his family). i’m not keen on the current unanimous consent decree - i want to see an attempt at a fillibuster, shut down the senate, walk out. treat this like the crisis it is.
and it doesn’t help when i read (from glenn):
or this from jack balkin:
not saying i agree with everything above… but i do not see the democratic leadership really fighting this, i see them pretending to.
there are some who seem to be doing what they can (and have been doing so for a long time) - i count leahy and feingold among them.
but not harry reid.
scarecrow @ 117
no, it’s NOT because i want senator reid to be speaking today. i wanted him to be speaking months ago. today i want action (in addition to good rhetoric) - an attempt at a fillibuster, something… not an agreement to limit debate.
Mary @ 128
my sentiments also… (although i have no ability to state it so well). but i do believe in redemption… and i’d like to think it’s not too late for them to use what little time is left to risk taking strong action today.
“Activist Judge” is now just a label. It really means “Liberal Judge”.
Just as a “Conservative” used to be someone who stood for smaller government, spending no more than was taken in through taxes, and standing up to government’s infringement of individual rights. These are not what conservatives stand for now, that’s for sure.
I can remember a time when conservatives were very vocal opponents of a National ID card. Now they propose the equivalent in an attempt to suppress voting.
Times have changed!
Kimba @ 22
AMEN!
Christy - I’d like to know myself who said it; it was posted here yesterday and the day before. It sure sounds like DLC/DSCC talk, though: move toward the GOP, to pick up those ‘moderate’ Republicans. (Time to try google-fu again.)
Okay, it seems to have first appeared in the Congressional Quarterly:
Dems: We Won’t Let GOP “Paint Us Into a Corner” On Torture, Wiretapping
By Justin Rood - September 26, 2006, 9:54 AM
Congressional Quarterly reports (sub. req.):
[N]ow that the Republicans have worked out a deal on detainees, Democrats are not planning any organized effort to filibuster the deal in the Senate, even though they may not agree with some of the specifics in the legislation.
With just a few days left before the election recess, Democratic aides say they are not going to give Republicans an opportunity to paint them into a corner.
“We’re going to do what we can to limit the amount of daylight between us and them on national security issues in order to neutralize this as a political issue,” a senior Democratic aide said.
Mary @ 129…
You post from the other day about how this has gone too far was very resonant… expressed well what many felt.
Wasn’t it here on FDL that someone, after a meeting with some Dem bigwigs, frontpaged that their bold strategey for November was to highlight economic issues?
Well look at what that has gotten them.
True- and that is why any one of them in the Senate who does not stand up and do their utmost NOW will forfeit any support from anyone who opposes torture as an instrument of state.
No triangulating, no bullshit, no “they’re not quite as bad as the psycho they are running against” none of that will have any effect after they cross this rubicon.
Maybe, maybe maybe a new crop of incumbent Dems taking over one house of congress will contain a few politicians principled enough to stall the next Supreme Court nomination, but if they fold on that its all over.
This is the deal: they want the law to cover Bushco’s ass, so that when the dems sweep into power in November, they will have to wait a couple of years while the courts are deciding to throw the law out, and won’t be able to move on this administration in a timely manner.
They then think that they will win all in 2008, and will have the dems to blame for the next ten years or so, since they won in 2006.
RevDeb @ 81
I have this problem off and on–my doctor told me to ease up on caffeine during those times. Apparently, caffeine is an aggravating factor.
Of course, worry for our country is probably a bigger one right now. But at least the caffeine you have some direct control over.
what makes the Dems think that if they are silent and dont filibuster that the Mighty Wurlizter wont put ads out that say they opposed this?
What makes them think the Fat Karl is going to limit his ads to the truth?
The goopers have plenty of floor debate to show Dems worried about the writ and the bill. Even if it passes, they will extoll themselves as champions of freedom and Dems as weak.
The Dems have to stand up–filibuster–and show in their ads how un-American this is, using exactly some of the arguments put down here by FDLers. This will go down in history as worse than the Alien and Sedition Acts, as bad as unwarranted or worse than WWII detentions.
For those in America who think that this only applies to dark skinned foreigners who don’t really deserve the rights that God gave Americans, this should give them pause:
As pointed out elsewhere–I think at Digby–
“Most of the attention in the press has focused on subsection (i) of the definition, which would designate as an UEC any “person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces).” And that subsection is, indeed, broad, and fairly indeterminate, depending on how “materially supported hostilities” is interpreted (something that the Administration apparently could do without much or any judicial review).
But the really breathtaking subsection is subsection (ii), which would provide that UEC is defined to include any person “who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.”
Read literally, this means that if the Pentagon says you’re an unlawful enemy combatant — using whatever criteria they wish — then as far as Congress, and U.S. law, is concerned, you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to “hostilities” at all.
This definition is not limited to Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It’s not limited to aliens — it covers U.S. citizens as well. It’s not limited to persons captured or detained overseas. And it is not even limited to the armed conflict against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, authorized by Congress on September 18, 2001. Indeed, on the face of it, it’s not even limited to a time of war or armed conflict; it could apply in peacetime.
Therefore if, as everyone is assuming, this definition does establish who may be detained by the military outside the civilian justice system, it would quite literally give the Secretary of Defense the statutory authority to detain just about anyone he wants, indefinitely. And if that’s the case, then the habeas-stripping provision would really be the least of it, because even with all the due process and habeas protections in the world, it would be almost impossible to challenge the grounds on which someone is detained if the Executive itself can establish what the permissible grounds for detention are.
Looks like the Democrats got suckered again by Specter. It was a head fake that they always fall for. And filibustering would spell DOOM for the Dems from Karl Rove’s army of orcs.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 131
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
-Edmund Burke
Dear Christy:
Far be it for me to get into a “pissing” contest with you, that was only my 3rd post on this site. Trust me that was far from my intention, and certainly your vehement challenge to my assertion is praise worthy, however perhaps I should explain my rational for my previous post.
This “law” that is being debated challenges the very underpinnings of our concepts of justice in every respect. It codifies torture, indefinite detention, and most tellingly, pardons for those who are supposedly in our employ for war crimes, and by any definition crimes against humanity.
While I certainly understand that this was a Republican law, proposed by this administration, I find it telling that in the House vote today, 34 Democrats voted in favor this heinous law, one of which unfortunately (Rep. Ford from TN I believe) is in a close race for the US Senate. While I understand how it might be “politically” expedient to vote in favor of this bill, the underlying fact is they will be condoning evil.
While fully cognizant of the fact that we have NO HOPE with a Republican Congress, I wonder if the Democratic Party took over one or both Houses of Congress, how many of them will be willing to go to the “mat” with the Bush/Cheney administration. If 34 of the “good” guys are willing to sell their souls for their current jobs (or future jobs) for the sake of political expediency, one has to wonder where they will ever draw the line.
Am I a defeatist? No, I prefer to think of myself as a idealist. WTF do we stand for, not as a party, but as a people. I am astonished how little outcry as a whole this entire process has generated. I spent 3 yrs of my life as a military policeman in the US Army, and the last 20 working in law enforcement, and here before my very eyes, the elected leaders of my country are actually legalizing evil acts. I am truly speechless.
Again I did not mean for you to take offense.
RMD1035
RMD1035 -
I,too, am flabbergasted that there’s not more outcry, but then again, not all that surprised.
The most common response I get from people who aren’t following, aren’t paying strict attention (what, do you think, about 90%?) is Oh, yeah, isn’t that terrible. But didn’t someone introduce an amendment to stop it?
It’s enough to make a grown woman take to her bed with the vapors.
And those are just the Dems. The other common response is Oh. I suppose you want the terr’ists to kill you in your sleep? You are as big a problem as the terr’ists - you support them!
immanentize @
49
FindLaw: US Constitution
“In form, of course, clause 2 is a limitation of power, not a grant of power, and is in addition placed in a section of limitations. It might be argued, therefore, that the power to suspend lies elsewhere and that this clause limits that authority. This argument is opposed by the little authority there is on the subject. 3 M. Farrand, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 (New Haven: 1937), 213 (Luther Martin); Ex parte Merryman, 17 Fed. Cas. 144, 148 (No. 9487), (C.C.D. Md. 1861); but cf. 3 J. Elliot, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution (Washington: 2d ed. 1836), 464 (Edmund Randolph). At the Convention, Gouverneur Morris proposed the language of the present clause: the first section of the clause, down to ”unless” was adopted unanimously, but the second part, qualifying the prohibition on suspension was adopted over the opposition of three States. 2 M. Farrand, op. cit., 438. It would hardly have been meaningful for those States opposing any power to suspend to vote against this language if the power to suspend were conferred elsewhere.”
I am confused. Are you saying the same thing? Where is the power to suspend?
>I,too, am flabbergasted that there’s not more outcry…
You need to understand that most Americans, the average American, are not that bright and rarely knows what to think in a rational fashion. Most Americans are emotional critters who are followers, not people who could take the lead if necessary.
There is no outage because Americans cannot perceive what is going on around them. They can’t connect the dots, so to speak.
Doesn’t say much for America.
Today I am ashamed to be an American. What MY government has wrought today creates disastrous results to all military personnel. I am a Vietnam widow that remembers. I find this to be a sad day and can do nothing but weep for our soldiers who today are putting their lives on the line.
You know - it is really, REALLY dispicable that Republicans would support a bill that undermines the constitution for political gain. I will NEVER listen to a Republican or consider voting one for as long as I live. They killed the American ideal ….so is it a stretch to think any of the rest of our rights are in jeapordy - like voting?
Christy,
Keep on keeping on.
Who is set to appeal this bill? It must be done?
I have been away singing in the Rogue Valley Peace Choir with its 148 members, but I am very sad tonight.
This is an election issue. The Dems who voted yes are on my NO list of the future. Anyone who does not understand the constitutional issues at stake must be intellectually limiited or retarded. I can excuse the latter group, but not members of Congree who should know better.
This is the point I have been making since day one. The law being debated is clearly unconstitutional. What this means is that those tried and found guilty will appeal and have their appeal upheld on consitutional grounds. Basically, this means that these people will walk. Is that justice? Plus the Constitution prohibits backdating laws. This cannot get Bush or anybody else off the hook for criminal acts prior to the enactment of this law. Every aspect of this attempt is a complete waste of time and money. Time and money that could better be spent in tracking down bin Laden and company.
Bush, stop making us less safe!
the next line of the constitution is also interesting in this case:
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
Now, I understand that this is no bill of attainder, but is it an ex post facto law?