
Investigation is a subtle process, requiring patience and fine analytical ability, as well as a skill in cultivating one’s sources. When torture is condoned, these rare talented people leave the service, having been outstripped by less gifted colleagues with their quick-fix methods, and the service itself degenerates into a playground for sadists. (Former Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovski)
There is a lot to turn the stomach of any thinking person about the current debate over detainee legislation in Washington, but the part of it all that really frosts me is the simple fact that torture as a method of interrogation has been discounted again and again and again throughout history. Retired CIA officer Larry Johnson, in conjunction with 16 other intelligence professionals, has posted a letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee:
Dear Senators:
We write as experienced intelligence and military officers who have served in the frontlines in waging war against communism and Islamic extremism. We fully support the need for proactive operations to identify and disrupt those individuals and organizations who wish to harm our country or its people. We also recognize that intelligence operations, unlike law enforcement initiatives, enjoy more flexibility and less scrutiny, but at the same time must continue to be guided by applicable US law.
(snip)
Apart from the moral considerations, we believe it is important that the Congress send a clear message that torture is not an effective or useful tactic. As noted recently by the head of Army Intelligence, Lt. Gen. John Kimmons:
No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.
Is this clear? NO GOOD INTELLIGENCE IS GOING TO COME FROM ABUSIVE PRACTICES. Why? Because people will say anything to stop the pain. And you end up sending the US military charging into Iraq on a fool’s errand looking for non-existent Weapons of Mass Destruction.
"Well, damn!" says Dick Cheney, "When we shot a hundred volts into that guy’s testicles, he SWORE there were WMD’s here! What can possibly have gone wrong?"
Doesn’t anyone but me see the problem here? Just for a moment, let’s put aside the moral question and look at the question of torture from a purely cold-blooded strategic standpoint. Pretend for just a moment that you don’t care about the toll abusive interrogation techniques take on prisoners and their captors and all you care about is getting good information. Torture still doesn’t make sense as a policy because it nets FALSE INFORMATION. And presuming that you really care what happens to our country, bad information is precisely what you don’t want.
From that essay by Vladimir Bukovsky in the Washington Post:
One nasty morning Comrade Stalin discovered that his favorite pipe was missing. Naturally, he called in his henchman, Lavrenti Beria, and instructed him to find the pipe. A few hours later, Stalin found it in his desk and called off the search. "But, Comrade Stalin," stammered Beria, "five suspects have already confessed to stealing it."
Name three intelligence successes we can attribute to the Bush Administration. Just three.
"Well," says Preznint Clusterfuck, "all I can tell you is that we’ve stopped attacks. The rest is a secret. National security."
Right. How come any and every time we need any hard evidence from you lying fucks, you can’t tell us because it would endanger "National Security"? Oh, and those seven morons living in a warehouse in Miami don’t count. They were keeping their neighbors awake doing "combat training" in the middle of the night, so the neighborhood people called the police. That’s not an intelligence operation. That’s a noise complaint.
The Bush administration haven’t got the first clue how to fight terrorists. They don’t understand that "intelligence gathering" means getting clues and information about things that are ACTUALLY HAPPENING, not waterboarding a Canadian tourist until he confesses to being Osama Bin Laden’s personal masseur to make you stop.
Which is exactly what happened. I think we all understand that in the run-up to the Iraq War, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld were applying direct pressure to the intelligence agencies to produce evidence that Iraq had WMD’s and that the Hussein regime was a "state sponsor of terrorism". Again and again, the intel agencies came up dry. But you know BushCo had a real hard-on for their war, so they told the intel people to keep trying until they got something. And apparently, someone on a waterboard who hadn’t slept for a week told them what they wanted to hear. Never mind that it wasn’t true! We got the answer we needed! LET’S INVADE THOSE BITCHEZ!! KILL!! KILL!! KILL!!
And it is prosecution for these war crimes that the administration is trying so desperately to escape, even if that means mangling our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions in the process. 200 years of democratic precedent destroyed so they can try to make their crimes retroactively legal. It has nothing to do with interrogating the people we may capture in the future. It has nothing to do with keeping our country safe. It has to do with Dick and Don and George trying to keep their smug white asses in power and out of jail.
Does everyone understand that? This new legislation not only compromises our values and clears the way for future generations of US soldiers to be tortured, illegally detained, and speciously tried, IT DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO MAKE THE UNITED STATES LESS VULNERABLE TO TERRORIST ATTACKS. If anything, it makes us even more vulnerable as more and more disaffected radicals of all political and ideological affiliations become hardened against us. Tony Snow maintains that not everyone who becomes alligned with Osama Bin Laden will actually strap on a suicide belt, but SOME of them will.
To me, this is the money quote from Bukovsky’s essay:
When torture is condoned, these rare talented people leave the service, having been outstripped by less gifted colleagues with their quick-fix methods…
And given the massive migration of experienced intelligence professionals away from the CIA and FBI, I think that’s exactly what we’re seeing. So, not only are Bush administration policies creating more terrorists around the world, they’re taking away the tools to fight them that we do have.
I feel safer already!



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No torture!
NO TORTURE!
NO TORTURE!
Torture a Republican.
Vote for a Democrat!
(Unless you live in Arkansas, South Dakota, New Jersey, etc.)
I’m scared to ask, but what happens now?
Any guesses on which group of American citizens BushCo is going after first? Cuz it’s clear that the Islamic terrorists aren’t worrying to them, or they wouldn’t be deliberately creating more of them.
Liberals? Bloggers? The gays? Hispanic immigrants? Non-evangelicals? They’re working to a plan, it would behoove us to figure out what it is.
I can’t wait to hear Harry Reid explain this one. What happened to the promises that this would not pass? What is he going to do to Lautenberg and the other 11 so-called Democrats who voted for this thing? What is the consequence?
Such a sad, sad thing to see. May this prove to be the nadir of American politics, from which everything is a step forward.
253 U.S. Representatives commited a war crime yesterday.
51(?) Senators did today.
Let us prosecute them all.
I am really beyond disgusted.
The Republicans, I expected. Party of One Lieberman, I expected. But…Rockefeller? Sherrod Brown? Landrieu–who represents New Orleans, one of Bush’s signature failures–LANDRIEU wants to invest Bush with more power? That’s insane. Bill Nelson couldn’t stand on priciple? He’s like 200 points ahead of his opponent. He’s afraid Krazy Katherine Harris is going to accuse him of being soft on terror? I am beyond disgusted.
I can’t BELIEVE I got EPU’d again! However, I’m going to drag this up from downstairs:
Just for what it’s worth… {putting on tinfoil hat}
If I were Karl Rove this is just the kind of discussion I would want liberal Democrats to have… saying that they’re refusing to support a Democrat… I can almost hear him laughing. This whole vote, as odious as it is, may be the “October Surprise” that we’ve all be speculating about.
SURPRISE!
What can we do but keep fighting? Still, it galls, doesn’t it? This is what America has become. The nation who bends its laws and changes its constitution and flouts international law to keep our criminal president from ever being exposed to justice.
Sickening.
thingwarbler @ 5
they’re going to drop it from their lexicon and focus on winning the election in six weeks. if they can get the focus back on spending $11 billion a month on Iraq and 20 thousand U.S. soldiers dead or wounded, they might do it.
It would be more surprising if it were a surprise. But I’m more dissapointed than surprised.
Awesome picture. The picture of a christian nation. Just like every other dominant christian nation in history.
The weak-willed Democrats let this terrible legislation pass because they are afraid of appearing soft on terror as we approach election time. But what they fail to understand is that by selling out their principles to try to please the elusive swing voter, they are alienating their own base. They seem to take for granted the fact that we will always be there to do the grunt work for them, regardless of how disloyal they are to us.
I’m worried that there have been so many losses on the Progressive side that the GOP thugs are succeeding in breaking this countrys spirit.
Have we tipped there? Or is it the opposite?………It just seems that there is NO END to new revelations about their corruption, and NO LIMIT to the ways they arrange getting off scott free. Are Amerians going to snap into active anger or just plain stupid numbness? I really don’t know anymore
Marion in Savannah @ 8
a vote for a third party candidate in this election is a vote for Karl Rove.
Funny, the last time anyone put voltage across my testicles, I said I loved her.
I guess it really WILL make you say anything!
Bill @
2
It doesn’t matter WHERE you live. VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT.
GOP = The Torture Party
hang it around their necks or just staple it to their chests…
TRex @ 9
You’re goddamned right it’s sickening. I don’t ever want to find out that I could be more ashamed of this country than I am right now.
Now?
We fight like hell for the midterms.
And get your passports in order, in case Diebold has the voting locked up.
Instead of getting all wound up in these ‘crazy torture
theoriesstories’,I’m just gonna wait until the NIST and Popular Mechanics puts out their
report: “Debunking
9/llTorture Myths”. Then we’ll know the “truth”./sarcasm off
I quit, Bush wins! At least I have a rememberance of the US being the greatest country on earth, dedicated to it’s constitution, and “tolerance” of different views. I am sorry I will now be considered an “enemy combatant” because I don’t agree with “dur furher”. This is a sad day for America. Good bye FREEDOM!
Peace,
PeeJ
lina @ 15
YES!!! Remember Ralph (may he rot in Hell) Nader???
PeeJ @ 22
Isn’t this bad enough without the fucking histrionics? Get back in the arena and fight, goddamnit!
Perfect, TRex!
PeeJ @ 22
Yup, Buddy – with that attitude, he does win…
Well, I’ve been hollering and screaming for 3 threads now and it’s time for me to retire. (Not to my fainting couch, just to sleep…) I’ll start again tomorrow… And let’s all remember, it’s only 24 days until the official beginning of the 2006 War on Christmas! Are YOU ready?
SCREW YOU MARY LANDRIEU & THE REST OF YOU FAILED AMERICANS WHO VOTED FOR TORTURE WHEN YOU KNOW IN YOUR DARK BLOOD STAINED HEARTS IT DOESN’T WORK. GET THAT? IT DOESN’T WORK. BLOODY FOOTNOTES IN HISTORY AT BEST.
TRex @ 9
when this was coming up and the vote was happening, I was pissed and scared… now I’m just pissed… and determined… and with very little to lose…
17,
I have to vote for a democrat, Bill Nelson of Florida, who voted for giving up our freedoms. I don’t know why Bill Nelson hates our freedoms, but I just can’t vote for Catherine Harris, unless I can see those sweet tits. Oh, I’ll vote for Nelson too if he’ll show me his sweet tits. In fact, I’ll vote for anyone who will show me their sweet tits. I’m easy Repuglicans, I’ll vote for any tits.
Peace,
PeeJ
John Forde @ 6
LET US COMPLETELY IGNORE THEM, SIGN IMPEACHMENT PETITIONS BUT SILENTLY AND DETERMINEDLY IGNORE THEM AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE AS IF THEY NO LONGER EXIST IN OUR REALITY.
I can see this is going to be a rough thread. Take heart, firedogs! My brother has a deliciously snarky post ready to go for Late Late Nite tonight about watching two rightards get into a slap fight on line.
Hilarity will ensue.
Trust me.
Kurt @ 4
Whoever it is, they’ve been planning on this for some time now. They already have plenty of room for them all, thanks to Halliburton…
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0418-27.htm
Oh god. This must stop immediately. Get as many people as you possibly can to vote against these people and their enablers, before it’s too late. Please…I’m beginning to worry about my children’s future. Just spend 10 minutes reading this bill that passed today, and links like the one above, and you’ll see we’re not overreacting here. Don’t even need the tin foil hat anymore….it’s all out in the open, right before our very eyes. We’ve got a month and 1/2 to end this madness, so please get out there and work for your local Democrat in any way you can, dammit.
TRex @ 32
Hardly your fault. This is a rough day. I’d be a lot more worried if people weren’t venting.
Marion in Savannah @ 8
Yep – exactly. Hold on to your seats folks because we are going to get one body blow after another the next five weeks. Go look at the picture of Rove and Bush chortling together on their way to Congress where Bush roused the troops (Christy used it for one of her pieces earlier today).
I’d like you to consider how disgusted some of the Republican Senators feel. I’m sure Hegel spent five hours in the shower trying to scrub the stench off his skin. What about Snowe and Collins?
The next six weeks are not for sissies. This is for the whole ball of wax and BushCo’s back is against the wall. They will throw everything at us but the kitchen sink. (Enough cliches for everyone?)
We need to put our heads down and redouble our efforts.
Torquemada, the Spanish chief Inquisitor, would be proud of the American torture supporters in the Administration and the congress. There are so many parallels between the Spanish Inquisition and The American Inquisition. All that was necessary to be brought before a Spanish Inquisition tribunal was a mere accusation of heresy or witchcraft. The American Inquisition picks anybody up on whom they can pin the terrorist label.
Once picked up by either Inquisition, the victims had no chance for a lawful review of their alleged crimes. One gets the impression as if the Inquisoition was not just held to inquire about the “truth”, but also as a warning to potential adversaries. No potential terrorist is dissuaded by the threat of torture. Why is it that this Administration must resort to such cowardish actions to pretend they are tough? This will leave a black mark on America for centuries to come.
EXACTLY. Rove only wins if he fractures us.
Pissed is good. Let’s just make sure it’s properly aimed.
dab from CT @ 35
Hear, hear!!
If a single one of you doesn’t go to the polls in November because of this, I will personally skin you alive. We lost this battle, but WE WILL NOT LOSE THE WAR!
Everybody take a deep breath. We’re all still here and we’re in this together. The Crash Test Demmies who voted for this bill will hear from us in time and they’ll regret the hell out of the decision they made today. But in the meantime, we have to vote the Reich Wing out of power and the first step starts at the ballot box.
When I saw those towers burning the only words in my head were “martial law.” I’m always fucking prescient and right.
Ya know what’s cool about this? I’m 17 again, and I’m going to lose 4 of my brothers and sisters at Kent State, or where ever it might be this time. I was there in ‘70, I wish I could be there in ‘06. God bless America, except for George Bushit.
Peej, have you been drinking tonight?
Thingwarbler writes,
Amen. My very fondest hope, tw.
Well one good thing, we will most likely be able to apply for asylum in more civilized countries, if necessary. Right now it’s very difficult for US citizens to legally work/live abroad without having a foreign-born spouse. If Bush starts rounding US citizens up and torturing them left and right, asylum will at least get some people to safety.
I don’t mean to be morbid, or defeatist…I’m not advocating giving up…but considering these things is probably wise, in a country controlled by those gung-ho to torture and to abandon habeas corpus.
I have a feeling this isn’t about “terrorists”. It’s about using the threat of torture to keep all of us citizens in line.
Anyone can be locked up without evidence, and tortured until dead if need be, with no repurcussion for the people involved. That’s what was passed and it’s something the American Taliban has been wanting to use against immoral liberals for decades.
You HAVE TO vote Democratic this time no matter where you are. I’m the biggest critic of the triangulators, but even a House and Senate of “centrists” would stop what happened today. The true liberal base is getting more and more organized with the help of blogs, AAR, Keith Olbermann, etc, and we’ll be able to hold the triangulators feet to the fire from now on. No more liberal complacency of the Clinton years…
People, please go to http://americablog.blogspot.com/
See the headlines. These people, the Republicans are corrupt. Attack them on that. Most people, including me, do not know habeous corpus from habeous shcmorpous. Nor do they care. We can win the war of facts and ideas later. Win this election. Attack them about things people understand. Coruption in every way. Bribes, sex. everything corrupt. They are the new Caligulas.
Win this election. Get out the vote. Get out the vote.
g
I loved Pach’s post on the previous thread and hope you don’t mind if I repost it…
—————–
Here’s something I’ve been saying in some other contexts, and let me repeat it here.
We have our culture war, our signature values issue: torture.
Not anti-abortion, not anti-gay marriage: that’s the wingnuts.
Torture.
We will organize around this and turn the total repeal of today’s bill into a litmus test. We will organize around pro-habeas and pro-human rights judges. We’ll run primary candidates and expel from power Dems who won’t stand up for the Bill of Rights.
Torture.
These are our values. No torture. Yes to human rights an universal dignity of persons, and to the common good. We are values voters.
———————–
The Rep party line on this crap bill is – it’s the only way that Bush can protect the ‘merican people – and that’s his job – cause he’s the decider. I don’t think most people, beyond his core 30% – believe his BS anymore. Especially not with Generals and former Secys of State denouncing him. We even have Jack Cafferty talking about Bush doing this basically to CYA.
We have an unequivocal moral issue to hang around their necks
hey folks.
I am pleased to announce, as TRex has hinted, that I have a snark bomb waiting in the pipe. I am going to do my best to stay awake and hang out… but I am fading fast…
As of now, as far as we know, liberal bloggers are not being snatched up and rendered to Syria, okay? Let’s keep this in perspective. Some heavy damage was done to the Constitution today, but the election is only 40 days away. If we lose heart and start jumping at our own shadows, we’re right where BushCo wants us, too scared and demoralized to fight.
Chins up, firedoggies!
ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!
I imagine you’ve all read Tristero
(http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/)–his take is that Congress had to pass this law, or they would destroy the illusion that Congress has any control over the President at all.
hey, Patrick… how the chowbrador?
They don’t want information.
They want confessions…Just what you’d expect from a corrupt theocratic dictatorship.
The punchline?
They’re not safe, either
;>)
TRex @ 41
Thanx TRex – I needed a good laugh (as the tears run down my cheeks)
OldCoastie @ 51
Sleeping peacefully on my left foot, which is now also asleep.
The bird dog is also sleeping. Hm. So’s the missus.
My lonely vigil…
How’s teaching, OC?
Has TRex told you that our father had a good friend for years who was a Coastie?
His name was Gordy, I think? Gordy or Gordie Hallor?
Sharkbabe @ 39
I gotta say Sharkbabe – just the sight of your comment did wonders for my furies with those 65 shameless Senators.
V for V fans: England does NOT prevail.
Fascist prick Cheney: everything decent in the world has already destroyed you, ten minutes ago while you slept. And we’re not as nice as V. There will be pain.
Try as you fucking deluded Nixon/Adolf wannabes might –
IT’S DECREED, THE PEOPLE RULE
TRex: Doesn’t anyone but me see the problem here?
Ahem… I do, and so do most here. I trust that is not what you meant. Actually, *know* that is not what you meant. Just a minor quibble. Alas, the popular media- meaning novels and movies- put ordinary people in situations where they do provide good info in the face of torture- as in “tell us all you know, Harrison Ford, or we will kill your child”. Torture as a means has been romanticized by movies and some novels. This sucks, because it has nothing to do with the real world. /rant.
Manifest the anger into action. Vent, it is very healthy to do so. I’m going to vent in the direction of my NJ Senators and my representative. I vented earlier in previous thread.
I will work to get Menedez elected. I will vote for him. And in the event that I should have the opportunity to meet the man while volunteering, I will let him know in polite and direct terms how wrong he was on this vote.
We can show the world that as citizens we disagree, and to do that we have to get the power back.
And, it will just kill Karl not to have power anymore.
holy cow- my pop’s Coast Guard buddy was the first Iron Man triathalon champ!
Thanks, google!
How much is enough?
When will people take to the streets?
I took my daughter to her first anti-war protest in bone-cold weather when she was six years old. She’s nine now, and we’re rarin’ to go.
Yes, some of us will continue to work this coming election cycle. I live in a state where my vote doesn’t count for much, but I’ll continue to do my part. (Maryland has Steele running for Senate, but Cardin should be able to win it going away. No other races that I will be voting in are particularly competitive.)
But when torture becomes the law of the land, and habeas corpus isn’t, it is time to do a little more than work on a multi-year strategy that requires a lot of nose-holding.
It is time to march on Washington. We can do it after the elections, but it has to be done.
Today showed us all that even if the Democrats take back slim majorities in both houses, there are enough fence-sitters, Broderesque Lieberman wanna-bes, coldly calculating idiots, and war criminals in our own party to make it extremely unlikely that the next Congress is going to hold anyone accountable. Particularly since the actions they took today take many of the most offensive crimes off the table forever.
I don’t have time to put all my hopes in a long-term strategy. We need to do more. More Kiss floats. We have to pin the torture label on the Republicans. We need to make the average non-blog-reading American understand what is being done in their name.
This travesty won’t stand forever, but every day that America stays asleep is probably five days more that it will take to recover from this nightmare.
Let’s brainstorm about how to accelerate the pendulum even more.
Marky D. Sod, I had to read your sig twice before the significance kicked in. The perfect dark humor, on a day as dark as today. Hope you’ll stick around. Speaking of dark, a hat-tip of thanks to darkblack for the ongoing image magic.
From earlier this week which again seems apropos for passage of the “Torture and Get Out of Jail Free Bill”:
Junya’s crew gets to dodge a real bullet, the only real bullet that means anything to them.
I can hear them singin’ it now:
Ain’t gonna go to jail no more,
Ain’t gonna go to jail
When everything is said and done,
We ain’t gonna go to jail no more!
To which my response is:
You fecking crazy-ass criminals didn’t get the “Domestic Wiretapping without a Warrant” bill passed, so Junya, Darth, Abu and a whole bunch of other serial miscreants are still on the hook for 30 to Life!
Don’t worry about getting measured for that Orange Jumpsuit ’cause one size fits all! And no Junya, it don’t come with a codpiece.
Now sing me a feckin’ song!
darkblack @
52
DB, we are becoming psychically connected. I was thinking about asking for that image of Bush as the Marathon Man, but you did it without my ever having to ask.
Is it safe, Mr. Preznint?
Is it safe?
Cut to the chase.
Congress gave Bush the AUMF. Look what he did with that.
Extrapolate to what they’ve now accorded him.
But, maybe — maybe — they won’t come for you. It may suffice to keep you worried that they might.
I am furious to have to share citizenship with this war criminal.
_
Gotta pack up and run home.
You kids play nicely til I get back.
Wayne Madsen has an extensive report on Plame-Gate. Valerie Plame
and Brewster Jennings were “burned” in June 2001 by a Bush
official involved in
weapons smuggling. This is getting to be extreme cloak-and-dagger
and we
have been transported to a Very Evil Parallel Universe-VEPU
http://waynemadsenreport.com/
“Sep. 28, 2006 — SPECIAL REPORT. CIA counter-proliferation front
company’s cover blown by State Department official two years before
White House leak to media.
U.S. intelligence sources, speaking on conditions of strict anonymity,
have told WMR that the cover status of Brewster Jennings &
Associates, the counter-proliferation front company that Valerie Plame
Wilson and her CIA counter-proliferation non-official cover (NOC)
colleagues used as a front for their operations, was blown in two phone
calls placed in June 2001 to two foreign intelligence agents in
Washington, DC by then-Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs
Marc Grossman. The calls were intercepted by the FBI, which had
targeted the communications of Grossman and the two foreign
intelligence agents as part of a counter-intelligence investigation,
according to the sources.
The FBI counter-intelligence operation was investigating a weapons
smuggling and influence-peddling ring that was centered on the
activities of the American Turkish Council (ATC). a major Turkish
lobbying organization in Washington, DC headed up by George H. W. Bush
National Security Adviser, retired Gen. Brent Scowcroft. According to
U.S. intelligence sources, a principal player in the ring was Grossman,
a career foreign service officer who served as U.S. ambassador to
Turkey from 1994 to 1997 and then moved back to Washington where he
served as Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs.”
I think the CIA is sick of being Cheney’s pawn.
Blame them for bad intel, then use them for cover when they need to legalize torture.
I wrote this last thread, but it fits here:
I never thought I’d trust the CIA more than The Admin., but there it is. 1.) These guys (and gals) and have come out saying that torture doesn’t work anyways, you get bad intel, false intel, etc. 2.) Plus, add in all the stories we’ve seen about them taking out torture insurance or whatever it is, and I’m not so sure any of them are jonesing to get back into secret renditions and torture anyways. And 3.) I think of lot of them hate/distrust Cheney/Bush so may not do their bidding. Maybe I’m clueless, but it’s a hope.
It’s the old Late Nite one-two…Or something.
;>)
Frank33 @ 66
Even a broken clock is correct twice every day.
_
Marky D. Sod @ 44
I was part of the protest at the 1st Bush Inauguration in 2000. There were 10s of thousands of us. At one point, while we were walking down Connecticut Avenue (with a permit) toward Penn Ave – we were surrounded by helmeted riot police. It was the most terrifying thing I have experienced (and I have been at many protests). Fortunately there were a lot of lawyers in the crowd telling the storm troopers that we were recording everything that happened on our numerous video cams. The storm troopers held the crowd there for over an hour – saying nothing – just standing shoulder to shoulder with their billy clubs in both hands.
That was my first taste of BushCo. Yes, I agree with what you say. They want to intimidate us. Which is why we won’t let them succeed.
Dale in Alabama @ 61
darkblack – things are defnitely looking up!
darkblack @ 52
As much as I detest dentistry, I gonna vote for that one!
LOL!
TRex @
32
Sounds like of what I think of when someone says a kerfuffle. Arms length, head adverted going not the face, not the face.
TRex @ 65
Okay, he’s gone! Break out the beer!
Do the Republicans really believe that this shameful legislation doesn’t affect U.S. citizens? From an email reply I received from Sen. Martinez’ office today:
“…terrorist detainees simply cannot and should not be afforded the same rights and process that our citizens enjoy in our courts.”
Dumbass.
Does anyone have a link to the vote tally? I see above that Bill Nelson is still suffering from battered Democrat syndrome and would like to know who else weaseled out.
Just remember to get a bullet proof vest that fits well. And tin foil? Well it should work pretty well against their microwave riot-control devices. I know it wreaks havoc in an unsuspecting microwave oven :)
Kurt @ 75
So that’s where I went wrong with the Jiffy Pop.
Patrick @ 54
sleeping dogs are good dogs! my 2 are still playing (involves a lot of sound effects)
the kids are a riot.. completely hilarious (and they are going to have a country they can be proud of, dammit!)
hmm… don’t know a Gordy Hallor – I was stationed in New England (with several bouts of training time in VA) – funny, people didn’t move all that much from one district to another…
alton @
74
From an email reply I received from Sen. Martinez’ office today:
“…terrorist detainees”
____
“The law of the jungle is ‘eat or be eaten.’ The law of civilization is ‘define or be defined.’”
- Thomas Szasz
Y’see, they are ALL “terrorists.” Why even bother with trials. Just torture and then kill them all.
Challenge the Goopers’ Straw Man framing of the issue relentlessly.
_
alton @ 74
Martinez can kiss my hairy white ass.
EvilDrPuma @ 80
now there’s a picture!
Send Martinez a picture of that 78 year old Afghani in Gitmo who uses a walker. What a sleazy fuck.
Torture may not work as an interrogation technique, but it makes a great political dirty trick.
Some of our freedoms died tonight, not with a bang, but a whimper, a deal brokered by the three clowns — McCain, Warner and Graham. The Yeas, a Roll Call Hall of Shame: Some of these senators are real fascists. Some are mere political opportunists. Some are cowards, afraid to vote their convictions under intense political pressure to conform or be labeled un-American or worse. You decide who’s who. And remember. Nobody gets a pass on this one.
I just have to say something irreverant- and apologies all- no offense meant- but if Bush were tortured, would he produce any *good* intelligence/ information? I think not. /s
can anyone else see my #67? What did I say to get moderated?
Trex! Patrick! Everybody! Thank gods for you and I would be in the bin without you.
This monster is unprecedented in its creepiness and utter incessant malevolence. Even our sage founders could not have imagined a drunken & coked-out Ted Bundy at the helm, nor a corrupt pussy legislature just fine with it, nor Goebbels as national muse.
But their whole shit is actually fragile as hell. Put your lips together and blow.
Mad Dogs @ 62
They are not worried about going to jail. First, the justice system will not work in this case. They have a solid four vote block on the only court that matters and they only have to give one justice enough rationalizations to get the one vote they need. It has to be done politically and there is no way we will take that many seats in the Senate. In my more cynical moments I keep thinking that the 08 election isn’t going to occur. We might yet be giving thanks to the NRA.
Here’s a question? Aren’t the Geneva Conventions an international thing? I mean, Geneva is a bit of a hint, unless it was Geneva Missouri and not Geneva Switzerland as I always believed. How can the president of one nation, even a superpower, change an international convention without, you know, international agreement. Sigh. OK Google, come over here and tell me all about the Geneva conventions.
rat bastahd @ 85
Hit F5 to refresh. Don’t torture the mods. We do our best.
From previous thread:
~~~All- please be patient if a comment ends up in moderation. The spam filter catches stuff automatically sometimes for various reasons that are outside our control. We do this for free, because we believe in what FDL is trying to accomplish. However, we have real jobs and real lives, and cannot be available every single moment of the day or night. If there was one note I could add to the guidelines at FDL, it would be “don’t hassle the mods.” We do the best we can. I understand that people may wonder why a comment is caught in automatic moderation, but often there is no clear answer, because frankly, the WP “spam” filter is clunky imo. Not meaning to single anyone out, because I know that many people have wondered why comments are caught in auto mod. Just to say that sometimes “it happens” and we do our best to release them quickly. Released comments show up only on page reload F5, not via “refresh comments” button.~~
this is a drive by. i’ve only read part of the thread, but does everyone know that there is a nationwide plan to march in protest of the Cheney Administration on October 5th? some information was posted about this a few days ago. it seems like this would be a good way for us to vent a bit about our frustrations. can’t stay around but i just thought i’d mention it….. meanwhile: NEVER GIVE IN! FUCKWAD MUST GO!
Sharkbabe @ 86
Sharkbabe-
it is the divinist liberty that one can laugh every now and then, especially at the bastards who would keep you down.
Be brave, be kind, be funny. It’s the best weapon we have.
I wasn’t trying to hassle anyone, sorry. But since I could see the comment (even though it still says “awaiting moderation”) I wondered if I was the only one who could see it. No biggie.
EvilDrPuma @ 80
Thank you for my first smile tonight! And Madison Guy, thanks for the link.
Pastor Dan over at Street Prophets had a post up about evil… I don’t remember all of it but he said something to the effect that just fighting evil is not enough… in essense, we must fill the world with good instead as the antidote…
I’m trying hard to be a little kinder, listen a little bit better, find some extra patience for someone these days… this is also another way to fight…
rat bastahd @ 92
rb- as far as I have been able to determine, if a comment is stuck in moderation, the person who made the comment is the only one who can see it. That is, until it is released- and then it won’t appear for anyone, you included, unless the page is reloaded (F5). The “refresh comments” button does not, alas, show comments that have been released. Only F5 will do. Sorry, I misread your question.
rat bastahd @ 93
I think it had to do with the word in*ur*nce, if you know what I mean and I think you do.
Seriously, there are so many different code words for spam and rude comments that it’s just going to happen from time to time. That’s why I was joking about mutant rodents in the last thread. I wrote the phrase “mutant rodent”, but instead of “rodent” I used a particular species of rodent that rhymes with the name of our webmistress. Get the idea? Anyway, I did that twice and was put in moderation jail both times.
Bottom line: sooner or later it’s going to happen, no matter what you do or don’t do.
UPDATE: I misread your question, also.
OldCoastie @ 95
Kill em with kindness!
Valley Girl at 90 says:
But…but…its legal now.
And Junya says its better to fight ‘em over here than to…oops. *g*
Thanks for being there today, everyone. From your passion, determination, outrage and anger, I put despair aside and found hope. The Democratic Party is a tarnished instrument, but our forefathers fought tyranny with less. We will prevail, for we are the people, we are the power and we are the revolution.
dab from CT @
35
Amen to that. I’m gonna drop my shoulder and put it to the wheel and not get distracted from my objective — getting progressives elected and giving them the opportunity to put those values into action.
Driving support to campaigns, urging volunteers, GOTV, raising money, helping them to get their message across. It’s right to be angry over this and to express that anger, but to let it demoralize you is to surrender. There’s going to be a lot of nasty shit coming down these last six weeks. Let’s remember that the opportunity to fight it in a meaningful way is right in front of us, and not let that rage keep us from being effective.
“It couldn’t happen hear” I think all Americans thought this at some level; were are better than they are/were. We have the Constitution and rule of law. This is the worst thing I have seen in my lifetime and I watched Joe McCarthy and HUAC on TV and that was still within our political bounds. With this breach of the Constitution there are no boundaries. The only group that comes out a winner are the theocrats. Destruction of the Constitution, destruction of the military, destruction of the economy, are all part of
their goals to theocracy and end-time. When the economy really turns to shit, the religious/populist movement will send the kleptocrats to the camps first.
My GF told me tonight that a small group of peaceful protesters were arrested in from a army recuiting office in Arkansas today. It will only get worse.
OT edit works, thanks to the two previous Late Nite sesions, I said screw Windows and bought a Mac.
oh, I’m not THAT good… but the kids I work with deserve my best, my family could use better… not woofin’ at the dogs for something they don’t know… THAT I can do…
Madison Guy @
84
You can hear an “Amen!” on that one, bro. If you have family or friends who don’t see a clear line here, rub their nose firmly in the error of their thinking. There is a clear line. If you have co-workers or even bosses, state why you think the way you do. The logic will eventually sink in. May it never come to this here, but I have personally met people in Asia, Europe, and Eastern Europe whose lives were literally saved by one kindness given or one clearly stated conviction. As my own may well have been.
For my anti-torture views I am known in America, in my home country among acquaintances and co-workers, as a blowhard who is often impolitic. I am about to be known as somebody who gets downright violent on the subject. Fuck ‘em.
I was just over at Unclaimed territory and this caught my eye. Glen is talking about Arlen’s principles
You could just hear the disgust drip.
I’ve never felt so demoralized and ashamed of my country as I was this evening. I was really down in the dumps and feeling like my spirit was completely broken after watching that travesty and betrayal of America today. I started reading all the posts to see what the reaction was and before I knew it, I was starting to feel encouraged that you all are ready to climb back on your feet and you’re getting pissed and ready to fight again. I’ll be damned if I’ll let them destroy my country while I’m still standing! Thanks for the lift of my spirits.
carolyn13 @ 100
Thank you for that! Eloquent and concise. Now off to Act Blue!
http://www.actblue.com/page/blueamerica
Valley Girl @ 84
Now, VG…The purpose would not be extraction of information.
After all, what could a spoiled fascisti playboy who has failed upwards his entire life have to impart to us that would be considered useful data?
No…It would be for re-education.
;>)
bonkers @ 98
You’re right. A gun is quicker, but it lacks that personal touch.
carolyn13 @ 100
carolyn, I was about to say soething to that effect, but you said it perfectly. Rough day!
Mad Dogs @ 98
Sorry, that was an unfortunate choice of words on my part, because there is no similarity what so ever between my mod experience and that of those who have been abused and tortured at the hands of the BushCo. regime. I truly apologize.
Kansas Kitty @ 106
We.Will.Not.Surrender!
Just when Rove thought it was safe to go back into the water. From the NYT’s website, 9/29/06:
“The House Government Reform Committee report, based on e-mail messages and other records subpoenaed from Mr. Abramoff’s lobbying firm, found 485 contacts between Mr. Abramoff’s lobbying team and White House officials from 2001 to 2004, including 82 with Mr. Rove’s office.
The lobbyists spent almost $25,000 in meals and drinks for the White House officials and provided them with tickets to numerous sporting events and concerts, according to the report, scheduled for release Friday.”
Do think he have some explaining to do?
Valley Girl @ 111
And I apologize for my poor attempt at humor.
There is nothing funny about torture.
Yes to 10/5 – I’m energized by the seriously forceful truthful rhetoric of the world can’t wait ads, I will be out
And also a streetcorner freeway blogger in my own hood this weekend and every weekend. (”SAVE AMERICA STOP BUSH”)
KEEP THE FAITH AND FUCK THIS FUCKING HORROR SHOW – THIS IS IT – OUT OF THE HOUSE PEOPLE
torture – staple it to their chests…
corruption? tattoo on their foreheads… their ship is going down.
All I can say* is that I hope that this law is disappeared by the courts before a single American is disappeared by the President.
*This is not all I can say, I’m just sayin.
More from the NYT’s article:
“Mr. Rove has described Mr. Abramoff as a “casual acquaintance,” but the records obtained by the House committee show that Mr. Rove and his aides sought Mr. Abramoff’s help in obtaining seats at sporting events, and that Mr. Rove sat with Mr. Abramoff in the lobbyist’s box seats for an N.C.A.A. basketball playoff game in 2002.
After that game, Mr. Abramoff described Mr. Rove in an e-mail message to a colleague: “He’s a great guy. Told me anytime we need something just let him know through Susan.” The message was referring to Susan Ralson, Mr. Abramoff’s former secretary, who joined the White House in February 2001 as Mr. Rove’s executive assistant.”
I think Jack has jacked Karl.
Cujo359 @ 109
Plus you’ll want to save your ammo for when they try to round you up in a couple of years.
darkblack @ 107
Darkblack- that is quite an image. And, probably the only hope, tho faint, for Bush being educated. Kind of a stomach-turning irony about your image, I must say, when considering the issue of torture per BushCo. What a sad day.
OldCoastie @ 116
I think torture is the label that works better. There’s an expectation out there that all politicians are corrupt anyway. To some folks, calling a politician corrupt is redundant, not an insult.
Reason, oh, I don’t know, 5 million and something why George Bush sucks. (Click)
Petite lagniappe from Josh Marshal:
So I guess now The Punctuationator is prepared to deal with pesky war protesters and opposition voters.
Cujo359 @ 120
oh, I think a bunch of them are going to jail… and that would be delightful, not redundant (except from the standpoint that virtually all of ‘em will be repugs)
Kansas Kitty @
106
Thanks, Kitty. Glad you are here.
Mad Dogs- @113 not to worry- I understood the intent of your comment. Sometimes cynical/ black humor does have a place in keeping us afloat in the worst of times. I do understand. I really do.
Digby is talking about what a lot(at least me) of us have been thinking. That some of the people who vote yes weren’t voting for torture but instead were voting to keep our little constitutional crisis under wraps a little longer. In order not to show thier utter lack of power to restain Bush.
On edit: I’m taking too much credit here. I’ve just been thinking crisis not the lack of power. It seems obvious now though.
Torture’s been empirically proven not to work. This empirical fact was nowhere in the “torture debate.” (Maybe sometime in the near future we’ll have a real debate about it ….)
We need a lot more fundamental change than getting the torturers out this fall, though we obviously need to do that first just to survive. Part of the longer-term change will have to be real media reform, so that politics won’t be conveyed as infotainment. Another part will have to be education.
Matt Browner-Hamlin @ 117
From what I’ve heard, the JAGs (Military officers) assigned to defend the detainees will be filing legal objections as soon as the bill becomes law.
These are the very same attorneys who got the successful Hamdan ruling from the Supremes, so I’d have to say they are not to be underestimated.
Tenacious and well-equipped to fight!
I only gave Sherrod Brown fifty bucks, but I want it back. I don’t care what his motives are; he will have to live with them, but I can’t finance them.
anybody see Ghostman lately?
“We are a country of adolescents, I accept it, and expect nothing of them. I am not embittered nor impatient with this so-called civilization because I understand it too well from the standpoint of philosophy”. H.J. Stowitts (1892-1953) California, 1952.
Happy coincidence that angie shared the RFK quote at 77 inspiring me to dust off a quip by the American artist Stowitts shortly before his untimely death at age 60.
The Roman empire tortured Jesus. He was not allowed to see the evidence or his accusers. He supposedly “confessed”…they killed that man.
The passing of this torture makes me sick.
But there’s something more to this story that just depresses the hell out of me: 12 Democrats voted FOR this legislation.
If 12 Democrats will vote for this repulsive legislation, then the Dems will NEVER control the Senate. EVEN if they get 51 Dem Senators after the Fall Elections — the Dems still will NOT have a majority. It appears that it will take 60 or 70 Dems before the Dems will actually have control over the Senate. And that ain’t gonna happen. How can Dem challengers unseat repub Senators when 12 of their bretheren voted FOR this torture legislation?????
At least the House Dems stuck together. They DO have a chance of taking control of the House.
But the Senate? Forget it, Dems. You guys sicken me.
They will torture someone into saying something about Iran.
Um, clueless, not to be an even bigger bummer, but 34 D’s voted Aye in the House.
Mad Dogs @ 128
The JAG officer who brought Hamdam to the Supreme Court doesn’t have a career anymore. He was passed over for promotion. In the up or out officers corp, that’s just a way of saying get out while you still have your dignity. The thanks of a grateful country.
EvilDrPuma @ 34
The forces of light cannot concede careful planning and strategic though to the forces of darkness. Today we faced plan, crafted by professionals, that had been in place carefully worked out more than two months ago — look at tapes of Gonzales’s August-second testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee. Also look at McCain’s performance on that day. I had the sense I was watching kabuki even then.
I don’t claim to know what happened. But, for example, I don’t believe that Ried is unable to figure out that it takes 51 votes to pass an ammendment but only 41 (abstains) to sustain a filibuster. The fix was in. I don’t know what he was offered or threatened with, but he caved.
The real question is what object lessons we can draw. Do we still lack credibility with the people who could have forced Reid’s hand? Did we fail to contact them soon enough? Would more money have made the difference. Who was working against us on the democratic leadership? AIPAC? The unions? The Catholic Church?
Hey, kids, Brother Patrick’s Late Late Nite post is up.
LindaR @ 129
I don’t blame you! I would let his staff know that there will be no more campaign bucks from you.
Anyone fortunate enough to have a Senator who voted on principle and voted “no” today might want to call that Senator’s office tomorrow and thank them. I, of course, have 2 senators that have never voted on anything that I could applaud them for. Disgusting creatures.
As for eventually winning the battle (a battle) or the war…I think its beyond that. I think they are just mopping up the few drops of blood and bits of flesh left. (I don’t mean the latest war, I mean America and the Constitution).
clueless @ 134
When the Dem caucus met before the vote – there was a straw vote on whether or not to fillibuster. Only two Dems voted against a fillibuster (and you just know Lieberman was one of the two) – so it went to a vote. All but two were willing to hang together to stop this abomination. Once the vote went to the floor – all bets were off. Still – a majority of Dems in the Senate voted against the bill.
Sharkbabe @ 56
I *heart* Sharkbabe.
I found this over at http://susiemadrak.com/
This came from Reid’s office
God, what suckers, what maroons. They gave up the chance to at least make a point. For what? The chance to put forth admendments. I watched the debate. They offered the admendments and one after another they were voted down on straight party line votes. What chumps, don’t they ever learn?
I knew it was a bad week to give up airplane glue.
No matter how guileful and horrific the revelations into the minds of the Bush Administration become, do not fear them. Ever.
Regarding the news today about the House Government Reform committee report linking Rove and Mehlman to Abramoff, did anyone else have the wishful thought of what if Patrick Fitzgerald possibly knew ahead of time he didn’t have to mess with a Rove indictment himself -that Justice would have a date with Karl yet.
I’m not very poll-savvy, so maybe some others here can help out. Is torture an issue that plays well with John Q. Nascar? With some of the polls I’ve looked at, it doesn’t seem like a slam dunk issue.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections…..40527.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320/ (hey looky here! McCain ‘n Abel wanted to ban torture alltogether last year…what a surprise…)
With this whole War on Terror(TM) frame confusing people, we’re getting nonsense like, “Well…in some cases torture’s OK, you know, like when the person is a terrorist and all.” Ugh…not as easy for them to decide on as, “dem queers shouldn’t get married!”
While we can get nauseous thinking about what happened today, just wondering how to turn these events into new Democratic voters. Not sure what to think of this polling.
Muzzy @ 145
I don’t know enough about how much Fitz might of known about the Government Reform Report but I just read the NYT’s story and this makes Rove and his office smell much worse than it has been smelling to date. The prick will be on the defensive again and distracted from other things.
OK, I left a few hours ago to drown my sorrow about the rape of the constitution. Strange, my fellow drinkers don’t seem to give a shit.I’m still a bit drunk and plan to lite up a doobie. I’m writing a letter to the editor of my hometown paper(Santa Fe,NM (will not send until tomorrow.)
After I edit sober.
One thing I will do is thank all the over 50% of voters who don’t vote. Welcome to the Fascist States of America.
drouse @
144
God, what suckers, what maroons. They gave up the chance to at least make a point. For what? The chance to put forth admendments. I watched the debate. They offered the admendments and one after another they were voted down on straight party line votes. What chumps, don’t they ever learn?
I knew it was a bad week to give up airplane glue.
Now you’ve done it! You have gone and ruined me. I no longer know which way is up. Sweet Jesus, that is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. Speaking of Jesus, he told a story of a servant who was chastised for burying his master’s money in a hole rather than investing it, so as not to lose it. This is why the man chastised him. Little children can think better than this.
I suppose it doesn’t change anything for between now and November, you know, ActBlue, throw the Republicans out, and all, but my, oh my come December …
Kansas Kitty @ 106
Where are you in KS, Kitty?
How do you feel about seeing Rep. Dennis Moore (D-KS) on the Roll of Shame?
AZ Matt: “The prick will be on the defensive again and distracted from other things.”
Good point. Last year when Fitz was tightening the screws, and Rover had to get on the defensive, Shrubya started to tank. It was just a comedy of errors on the PR front for an administration known for great PR. Let’s hope the same happens now, just in time for the elections!
I think dictators use torture because it does work in a couple of ways:
1. It gets false confessions.
2. It is a form of punishment that induces fear in the population they are oppressing.
Number 2 is a form of terrorism.
So the irony is that we’re being told that torture helps fight terrorism, when actually
torture IS terrorism.
rat bastahd @ 136
fuck. Thought I read that the votes went according to party lines. This does nothing, rat, to improve my mood.
hufNpuf @ 148
You weren’t at Maria’s having a margarita, were you?
“America, till now, could never be called a free country, because her legislation depended on the will of a man three thousand miles distant, whose interest was in opposition to ours, and who, by a single “no,” could forbid what law he pleased.”
Thomas Paine,The Crisis: PHILADELPHIA, April 19, 1777
What Paine wrote in 1777 is what you are all writing about tonight. It hurts like hell right now but we will recover from this and we will kick “King” George’s butt!
drouse @
145
God, what suckers, what maroons. They gave up the chance to at least make a point. For what? The chance to put forth admendments. I watched the debate. They offered the admendments and one after another they were voted down on straight party line votes. What chumps, don’t they ever learn?
I knew it was a bad week to give up airplane glue.
Exactly! First of all, it take 51 votes to pass an ammendment and only 41 to sustain a filibuster. Secondly, once you let go of the moral message, you give your followers to go cover their individual asses, i.e., you lose all moral credibility. We lost many of the democrats and a few of the republicans by being seen as weak.
I believe (on the basis of common sense) that Harry Ried was bought off or blackmailed — he knows the difference between 41 and 51. I believe that most of the rest had lost their spine due to an excess of DLC influence. The DLC strategy has always been to screw principles and simply stay as close to the Republicans as possible but stay half a step to the left to claim all of the liberal vote. “Where else do they have to go?”
But, as we saw today, it’s not that there aren’t intelligent, principled democrats. Somehow they got stampeded, and I like to hear the real story on that.
I cannot believe this! The torture maverick stands up for the torture macaca:
the ad is at the link
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/el….._mccain_ad
bonkers @ 154
They don’t stay open late enough. I was at the new place(used to be a laundromat)Silver Star Salon(I think)Many memories of doing laundry there.
dab from CT @ 142
Why the f*^# are they still letting Lieberliar (LfL-White Houes) vote in the Democratic caucus?
I hope none of those pro-tyranny Dems think they are going to get any plum commitee assignments. If there is any justice in this world they’ll be reduced to holding hearings on garbage collection in Hoboken.
I am curious, do we have a plan B, if the unthinkable should happen in November?
rmd1035 @ 160
torches and pitchforks?
Where’s the angry mob? I want an angry mob. At least the torches should keep Cheney at bay.
clueless @ 153
Sorry. The party line votes you heard of were probably the Dem amendments in the Senate.
Again, from Thomas Paine, who I would hazard a guess would recognise the “King” George of our time:
The Crisis: LANCASTER, March 21, 1778
“When we take a survey of mankind, we cannot help cursing the wretch, who, to the unavoidable misfortunes of nature, shall wilfully add the calamities of war. One would think there were evils enough in the world without studying to increase them, and that life is sufficiently short without shaking the sand that measures it.”
Food for thought.
hufNpuf @ 158
Oh yea, I heard of that place. I’ll have to try next time I’m in SF for work…hopefully soon! How’s Mary Jane treatin’ ya?
I’m cross-posting this with the general “What’s the deal with FDL thread?” because I wanted to make sure you guys saw it. I’m a long-time lurker from way back in the Blogspot days, actually even the pre-Christy days, and this is my first comment (just have no time, you know?) I know I’m very late to this game, but I’ve been in the hospital for a week (it’s a long story, but I’m fine) and am just catching up. I just wanted to tell you I love your blog. I really loved the blog when it was just Jane and Christy; as an attorney who also has been obsessed with the insanity that was and is Plamegate, I have been an avid reader of Christy’s astute analysis. I have enjoyed the changes and additions, but I have to say that the addition of TRex is just the best. I love, love, love you, TRex, you big toothy monster!
As for the issue of the moment, I think that the Dems and moderate Republicans who voted for this abomination are far more morally bankrupt than even Bush and his supporters. At least Bush and company have the courage of their convictions. The same certainly cannot be said of the cowardly Democrats who voted for this monstrosity. It seems they did so to try to prove how “tough on terror” they are; that’s apparently eaesier rqather than taking a stand to prove how tough on protecting the Bill of Rights, US laws and treaties, and our military they are
bonkers @ 165
Esta bueno! Oue Viva la revolition! Soon to start some time.(I hope)Fdl rocks and I love the ladies of the Lake. Nite you”all.
Just to express how we feel right now and maybe for a laugh.
http://www.fleshbot.com/sex/se…..203631.php
drouse @ 162
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYM3Hg4vMsQ
peachkfc @ 166
Oops, forgot to spell check; that’s “easier rather” not “eaesier rqather.” If I missed anything else, well, sorry!
peachkfc @ 166
welcome, peackkfc, and come back often. But I must take exception with your “At least Bush and company have the courage of their convictions.” They have no convictions (although let us hope they eventually do in the International Court of Justice). Bush is doing this out of the same impulses that drove him to blow up frogs with firecrackers and brand his frat boy inductees with a hot coat hanger. The thugs he surrounds himself with are no better. Convictions, indeed.
Mad Dogs @ 114
No, there isn’t. But just take a moment to savor that mental image of Bush choking on a Rold Gold.
For those folks whose Democratic senators voted YES on this piece of crap, I have one bit of advice for you. Next time he/she comes up for re-election…. make sure that senator has a Ned Lamont experience.
peachkfc @ 166
Thanks so much peachkfc. I am glad you are feeling better. Please, come comment often! Go say something on my brother’s thread!
This from Glenn Greenwald expresses one of the puzzlements I have about Harry Reid’s difficult-to-explain leadership on this effort:
Sorry all, but Bob Menendez voted for torture, so I can’t vote for Bob Menendez. Color NJ’s Senate delegation split for the next 6 years, but I JUST CAN’T UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES VOTE FOR SOMEONE WHO VOTED FOR THIS BILL. I can’t, I won’t, and I hope there are 100,000 other NJ voters who feel the same. For Chrissakes, we just approved fuckin’ TORTURE with Bob’s support.
bobo
neurophius @ 171
Point taken, but only to a certain extent. While you and I and most normal people with even minimal human decency and morality are repelled by Bush’s torture agenda, as you point out, Bush et. al. are not. In fact, in their warped, perverted minds, they think what they are doing is right. I think there is no doubt that none of them ever have lost or ever will lose one moment’s sleep over the thought of any person being tortured. Bush has said on several occasions something to the effect that he believes he has been sent by God to be President. I would think that if you have been sent by God to be President,thatprobablymeans you’ve been sent by God to torture your enemies as well. If that’s not conviction, I don’t know what is.
TRex @ 174
My pleasure! And I will say more to you and your bro soon, but it’s way past my bedtime (I’m an East coaster in Providence, not one of those West coaster types.) See you soon.
Better late than never…Thank you Dale (61) and ‘brat (71).
Humor prevails!
;>)
peachkfc- fwiw, both TRex and bro are in the Eastern time zone.
darkblack @ 179
DB, you did another particularly good job on this image. I would TOTALLY wear this on a t-shirt. It says so many things at once, all of which are important messages for the American people.
Bobo,
I understand entirely how you feel. I am completely disgusted today.
But these are ruthless and dangerous times.
Hold your nose, vote for Menendez and press all your friends and relatives in NJ to do the same because our only real hope of slowing down the corrupt and dangerous Bush administratin is to get control of Houae and/or Senate, and get subpoena power.
That’s the nut.
Has nothing to do with Menendez. Has to do with you and I protecting ourselves and our country.
Peace.
Bad bad news for y’all.
Your eye is off the ball. I love you guys, so I get no pleasure from saying it. But it’s true, and you need to know it.
The “torture doesn’t work” meme assumes that useful information is the goal of the interrogation. McJoan over at Big Orange has covered it, and it’s just a wrong-headed idea.
Q: When do governments use torture?
Hint – it’s not when they’re after the truth.
A: They use torture when they’re after a confession.
Torture is no more about security than Iraq was about WMD. And they know it.
They don’t want tools that are helpful to real-world police and intelligence activities. They want tools that make high-profile suspects say what they want them to say.
People may understand this point of view – and if they do, they’re really either with you guys, or want in on the big game of power. No in-between.
If they don’t understand it, it’s a trickier meme to impart than “you know it’s wrong”.
My suggestion? Keep “torture don’t work” to a low roar, and voraciously hammer “it’s just wrong, and you know it”.
Peace. Good luck.
OS?
Imm?
No morning folk here or at late,late nite? I feel lost…
DairyMaid @
185
There’s another thread, i think.
lina @ 15
So tell us lina, which Pro Torture Anti- American values Democrat should we continue to support ????
Larry
I was going to call Senator McCain’s office express my views on this torture bill but I found out the toll free number to the Capital has been disconnected. Does anyone know why?
Could it be because they didn’t want to make it too easy for their constituents to call?
“And apparently, someone on a waterboard who hadn’t slept for a week told them what they wanted to hear. Never mind that it wasn’t true! We got the answer we needed!”
That comment from TRex is all we need to know.
Never mind all the altruistic arguments and reality. By forming the question so that only a yes or no answer is desired, crushing some poor guy’s testicles until he says yes, BushCo then has the “evidence” they need to invade another country in their quest for empire. We should all know by now that truth is never going to get in the way of these people. Any, repeat any, evidence coming from any alleged detainee should now be discounted outright.
And 13 so-called Democrats voted for this nightmare yesterday. Senator Nelson from FL best thank his lucky stars that I’m devoted to a non-violent resolution to our problems.
Bastards. I’d use a stronger epithet but this is a family forum.
Never give up.
neurophius @
151
Sorry to be so late at answering you, neurophius. I don’t live in Dennis Moore’s district, but even worse, I live in Jim Ryun’s district. Moore is our only Dem Congressman, but he too often votes the DLC line. I’m appalled at how many Democrats voted for this disgusting bill. Sickening. Why have they let Rove pull their strings and remain in silent assent to a virtual coup of the country’s laws and Constitution? I cannot fathom it.
Most of ya’ll are still going to vote for the craven war criminals and cowardly incompetents in the Democratic party this fall aren’t you? I’m not. I’m finished with them. I will never EVER get past the Dems falling for Rove’s bullshit yet again and marching in lockstep with the GOP.
Yeah, yeah, 34 votes against the bill (12 FOR THE BILL!!!) but they started off giving up on the ONLY thing that would have killed this bill: filibuster. They decided to go down without a fight at the get-go. They will NOT filibuster ANYTHING. NOTHING deserves a filibuster to the Dem party. Not basic Constitutional principles, not basic human rights.
Reid is weak and incompetent. He couldn’t lead a filibuster if he had 60 seats in the senate.
People like to screech that those like me are doing Rove’s work. WRONG! The DEMS keep doing Rove’s work. They ALWAYS go along with his shit and they deservedly lose for doing so. So again, this fall, they will lost yet again and for good reason.
The GOP keeps moving the line farther and farther to the right and the Dems simply sidle right up next to them and love it. They are NOT serving up to their oaths of office and they are NOT representing the people. They are all war criminals.
Torture and gulags and immunity from war crimes prosecution were deal breakers and the Dems broke that deal with relish.
Sorry if this upsets some of ya’ll but we’ve been had again. Nothing will change if the Dems take control of either house of congress. All they will do is quiver in fear of Bush and the GOP, run around like freshly headless chickens, and triangulate themselves into oblivion.
Oblivion it is. The body is riddle with metastatic cancer and cannot be saved.
I have to ask…what is the “unthinkable”? The torture-loving GOP retaining control or the torture-loving Dems taking control? What’s worse, the devil you know or the cowardly devil that will go along with the GOP and Bush no matter what because they need to minimize daylight between themselves and the GOP on everything all the time?
This is what triangulation gets you. The Dems literally stand for nothing and fight for nothing (except money for themselves…just like the GOP).
When I’m picked up for being an enemy noncombatant, I’ll skip the torture and ask them what they want me to confess to, then tell them what they want to hear. Either way my disappearance down the rabbit hole is guaranteed but I may avoid being waterboarded. I can’t swim.
Thursday, September 28
Molly Ivins:
Habeas Corpus, RIP (1215-2006)
Does the captain still go down with the ship? In these Orwellian times remember to be afraid and give up. (i.e.have courage and keep fighting)
If someone knows why no one but Michale can post on Huffington, please tell me. Mine never show up and he is always first on the comments. There is no way to contact them. I believe he works at Huffington and trashes comments related to himself.
Grumble, grumble, grrrrrr!~
I sent a scathing email to Sharrod Brown this morning. something about being ashamed of him and his lack of integrity. I closed by saying “I turn my back on you”, but of course I won’t, I can’t, we have no choice but to continue to support the Democratic candidates, even those who betrayed us, but it just breaks my heart.