I don’t know who thought it was a good idea — scrap that, I do know who thought it was a good idea — to let this guy be the final word as to what constitutes torture:
‘We were terrible to animals,” recalled Mr. Throckmorton, laughing. A dip behind the Bush home turned into a small lake after a good rain, and thousands of frogs would come out.
‘Everybody would get BB guns and shoot them,” Mr. Throckmorton said. ”Or we’d put firecrackers in the frogs and throw them and blow them up.”
Yeah, this guy gets to be the decider:
The charges against Delta Kappa Epsilon were made last Friday in a Yale Daily News article that accused campus fraternities of carrying on "sadistic and obscene" initiation procedures.
The charge that has caused the most controversy on the Yale campus is that Delta Kappa Epsilon applied on "hot branding iron" to the small of the back of its 40 new members in the shape of the Greek letter Delta, approximately a half inch wide, appeared with the article.
A former president of Delta that [sic] the branding is done with a hot coathanger. But the former president, George Bush, a Yale senior, said that the resulting wound is "only a cigarette burn."
This is the list of the members of the Democratic Party who thought trusting him with this decision was a good idea:
Carper (Del.), Johnson (S.D.), Landrieu (La.), Lautenberg (N.J.), Menendez (N.J), Pryor (Ark.), Rockefeller (W. Va.), Salazar (Co.), Stabenow (Mich.), Nelson (Fla.), Nelson (Neb.)
This is the list of the members of the Lieberman 4 Lieberman Party who thought trusting him with this decision was a good idea:
Lieberman (Conn.)
For the record, this is not acceptable behavior either within the Democratic Party or the human race.
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We need to impeach Bush..
That’s it!
Has Ned Lamont made an unequivocal statement about how he would have voted on this bill?
Great Writ!!
We used to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Now….?
I want everyone to realize that whoever uses the internet is transferring data internationally
that means every single person who has a computer is subject to any kind warrant less search
I also think everyone should know the president gets to choose what constitutes “aiding” eneemies.
this means he could think telling people his decisions have caused terrorism helps terrorists
All in the Family:
Salazar’s brother in the
House also voted for this abomination of a bill too. Everyone of these DINO’s needs to go.
Of fucking course, he’s a sadistic creep. That’s why he has such a hard-on for legal torture!
Republisadists — now that a
G-rand
O-l’
P-arty
EPU’d from last thread, but it made me MAD: (I’m not sure how to “nest” the quote but I think it’s clear…)
Marion in Savannah says:
September 28th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
jello5929 @
45
So what’s it going to be? Time for a gut check. Are you a progressive? And are you willing to turn your back on the 46 torture supporters who label themselves Democrat?
From me: no time, no money, no votes for any of the following. And I will financially support any and all primary challengers.
Tom Carper (Del.)
Tim Johnson (S.D.)
Mary Landrieu (La.)
Frank Lautenberg (N.J.)
Bob Menendez (N.J)
Bill Nelson (Fla.)
Ben Nelson (Neb.)
Pryor (Ark.)
Jay Rockefeller (W. Va.)
Ken Salazar (Co.)
Debbie Stabenow (Mich.)
Joe Lieberman (Conn.)
Andrews
Barrow
Bean
Bishop (GA)
Boren
Boswell
Boyd
Brown (OH)
Chandler
Cramer
Cuellar
Davis (AL)
Davis (TN)
Edwards
Etheridge
Ford
Gordon
Herseth
Higgins
Holden
Marshall
Matheson
McIntyre
Melancon
Michaud
Moore (KS)
Peterson (MN)
Pomeroy
Ross
Salazar
Scott (GA)
Spratt
Tanner
Taylor (MS)
(Marion’s reply starts here) Okay. So, if “no time, no money, no votes” I guess we just roll over and hand this over now? We give up now? My congresscritter, John Barrow, is on your list. I’ll hold my nose and vote for him, and then we’ve got 2 years to get his mind right or fire him. So you want to quit now??? I’m thinking this is not the time to lie down and hold our breaths and kick and scream… We cannot do ANYTHING AT ALL if we don’t take back the Congress, and that means voting for some of these folks. Do what medical examiners do… Smear some Vicks Vapo-Rub underneath your nose, get in there, and do your job. {putting on flame-retardant suit}
Posted without comment.
Dear Senator Dole,
It is quite a fall from President of the Red Cross to voting to allow the United States to torture people and detain them without charges forever.
I am appalled, but not surprised as true morality seems to be lost on our current government.
May God have mercy on your soul.
Your disgusted constituent,
ME
Dear Senator Burr,
I expected you would vote to allow the United States to torture people and hold them without charge forever, but somehow it seems so unseemly for a Senator from one of the thirteen original colonies to become so morally lost that he would vote for such a thing.
It will take a long time for humanity to forgive this sickness of America’s soul and you are partly responsible.
Good luck with your rehabilitation.
Your disgusted constituent,
ME
we humans will prevail over these cheney pinochet nazis – we always do
I just commented on the last thread that Joey pulled his favorite little trick…he votes for all the amendments offered by the Dems, amendments that would have at least mitigated some of the worst aspects of McCain’s amendment, and then, when principles really matter, when he has to choose between his country and torture, he chooses torture…
And this during the High Holy Days…I think Joe has a lot of atoning to do before Yom Kippur…
Hm, time for a few Senator-sized firecrackers?
Now for a real comment on THIS thread…! One of the things that I have never been able to wrap my mind around is how this can even, ever, in any way, be a topic for discussion. I’m able to kill a roach. I try to encourage the fire ants to leave my yard… I pick up moths and take them outside… It’s not that I’m a Buddhist, it’s just that the suffering of living things belittles me in a way I feel in the core of my soul. And I’m talking about SMALL living things… I’m the one who took the mousetrap poison bait that looked like bread crumbs and replaced it with bread crumbs…
What I want to see, and what, quite frankly, I think we should now demand, is a widely publicized explanation, with demonstrations performed by members of Congress, of EXACTLY what they have voted for. Who do we want to see in a “stress position?” Which member of Congress will volunteer to demonstrate waterboarding???
I cannot tell you how distressed I am. I’ve spent the last 2 days being almost physically ill, just from thinking about this. Is there a level of humanity or human decency that some people just don’t have??? Sorry this is so long, but I couldn’t think of a way to get it “pithier.”
Bush is a sadist.
It is his true religion. The public polling on torture seems to show that secularist are most opposed to it, while “Christians” seem to be gung-ho for it.
The Caligula from Crawford bathes in perverse power, he probably has private “top- secret” video screenings of torture sessions shown at the Whitehouse to “review” them.
He must really get off on them, much better than the hundreds of simple executions in Texas he presided over.
I wonder if he serves popcorn while watching them?
Does Laura stand by her man or stand over him in leather?
EPU’d. The contra-optimism, from an extremely unlikely & usually depressed source: me.
egregious @ 64
I am with you 100% Marion on all counts. My father built a live-trap to catch mice before any one knew what one was.
Lead. Follow. Support. Teach. Learn.
Everyone can do something.
afterthought @
17
Thank you! I appreciate your comment.
I’ll prolly go into moderation for this one, but I can’t help it; wrt to the Throckmorton reference quoted above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Thomas_sign
(asterisks mine)
which pathology is this pointing to? Sadism, I say.
You’re absolutely right, Gentleman Jim. President Low Normal is a sadist. This has been clear for years, but our famous Liberal Media declines to point out this screamingly simple fact.
Meanwhile Joe Lieberman shoots a Donkey in his Pajamas (cause he’d rather die than shoot an Elephant.)
And why was CNN annd CNBC broadcasting the HP WIRETAP hearings today and not the torture bill vote or the warrantless wiretapping. Is it because some are more concerned about who controlls the boardroom than who controlls the Constitution? Another smokescreen?
The final bill that Bush signs will contain the core odious provisions found in the bills proffered in both houses (no habeas, no citing Geneva, retroactive indemnity), and will also be internally contradictory, e.g.,
Bullshit.
Bush, of course, will act pursuant to the provisions giving him unfettered power (and will probably issue a signing statement implicitly saying so). He will simply ignore the section enumerating specific acts of prohibited torture, betting that any SCOTUS challenge is a long way off.
I wouldn’t accord the wisest person in the coutry this kind of power, much less this uncouth, inept asshole.
_
I’m so there with you… I just moved into the unfinished basement of a house, there are lot’s of little spiders and I think some kind of beetle behind the wall that makes a rasping sound at night. To me the thought of poison bombs for the invertabrates invairiably reminds me of the immoral torture going on in our great nations name. I have been thinking WAY too much about this – my jaw has been sore from clenching. I try to stay positive and meditate, but there are times like today’s vote that just take the wind out of your sails… Marion in Savannah @ 14
Legs Couric gave Senate passage of the torture bill all of 10-15 seconds tonight, about 3rd or 4 story in.
_
I doubt it would be the least bit productive, but I feel like sending a letter to Lieberman that starts out, “You stupid son of a bitch…”
not at all articulate, but certainly to the point…
I’m livid. Both my senators from NJ voted for this, and so did my congressional representative.
Lautenberg always send a response and tomorrow I’m sending letters to all three of the f**ing stooges and demanding a response.
I will also point out to Menendez that I am voluteer for his election campaign. I will be especially interested in hearing why I should work to get him elected becuase I do not approve of torture.
Scarborough Country covering Clinton/Fox interview–Roger Ailes says Bill committed “an assault on all journalists.”
Average American’s response:
“Hay-bee-us cor-p-pus. Hey honey, what’s hay-be-us corpus? Is that Greek or something?”
That doesn’t say “Salazar, Colorado,” does it?
Tell me it’s a big mistake.
Slothrop @ 29
sorry, but I cannot tell a lie.
Would someone please confirm for me that “Brown (OH)” is in fact Sherrod Brown, Blue America candidate for U.S. Senate? I assume there is only one Rep. Brown from Ohio…if so, I think he deserves a specific response from FDL.
Millineryman @27,
I will never vote for anyone who supported this bill.
Millineryman @ 27
I understand Menendez (not saying I agree with the political calculation) because he’s in a tight race. But WTF is wrong with Lautenberg? And Rockefeller????? The others don’t surprise me – especially Lieberliar
For a long time, including at this moment, I was resentful of Ralph Nader for enabling the Gore-Lieberman loss in 2000. Nader said at the time there wasn’t much difference between the two major political parties. I thought Nader didn’t know what he was talking about. But one thing seems certain: there’s not much light shining between the then vice-presidential candidate, Lieberman and the Republicans now. I shudder to think that if Gore had won in 2000, we might have to deal with a President Lieberman in 2008. Perhaps I was, and am wrong in discounting Nader’s general perception of the two parties.
I am going to support my party, the Democrats, through 2008. But if we lose (again) to the Republicans due ONLY to NOT standing up against these fascists, I am going to seriously re-assess my party loyalties in 2009. Period!
I know I must be missing something here, but is there any legitimate reason (beside the obvious one of lack of balls, which I guess is legitimate in a courage-challenged individual) that not a single Demo Senator could stand firm and FILIBUSTER this thing? No, seriously, I’m sure I must be missing something. Please, someone, anyone, enlighten me.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
This is a copy of the letter that I sent to my Senator, Bill Nelson. Despair? Thy name is “Florida”. I have lived through the humiliation of living in Katharine Harris’s congressional district for the past few years. I survived Nixon and Watergate. I survived Ronnie Reagan and his incompetence and “evil with a grin”. But I don’t know how America will survive another 2 years of this rogue president (thanks for that moniker, Tristero!). I have been active in Democratic party politics my whole adult life. Now when I walk into the polling station in November I face a choice between 2 evils: Bill Nelson, Bush supporter DINO or Katharine Harris, election-stealing nutjob! How did we come to this point?
My letter to Bill Nelson:
I am shocked and dismayed that you voted today to legalize torture by the government of the United States of America and also voted to give the president the power to indefinitely detain, without legal recourse of any kind, any person he or the Dept. of Defense deems to be an “enemy”. While it may calm some people’s fears to think that these horrific new powers will only be used against terrorists, the history of the US Government and indeed all governments proves otherwise. This is indeed a dark day for America, a once great nation that stood as a beacon of liberty and the rule of law for all the world to see and admire. We will now lose all credibility and the right to call ourselves defenders of freedom. I will not be able to cast my vote for you come November because of this vote and I will be actively working to ensure that many others follow my lead. I will not vote for your opponent either; I cannot in good conscience cast my precious vote for either of you since both of you support wholeheartedly the destruction of the Constitution of the United States by this rogue president. I am so disappointed in you, Senator Nelson. There can be no valid excuse for your vote today. You voted against America today and that is all that can be said. This bill is an atrocity and an affront to America. Shame on you!
Tonight Olbermann had a segment on Jesus’s Warriors which looked like evangelical cultists in the manner of the Hitler Youth. A cut-out of Bush on stage was in one picture. Thia is really scary after what Congress did to the Constitution today and the report yesterday that millions have been awarded to fund monitoring of network reports on Iraq.
Yes, neruophius, THAT Sherrod Brown. I agree with anyone who thinks he let us all down. Principle is as principle does. However, there is another side to the story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15049251/
And this picked up my spirits a bit: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/28/193836/545
Millineryman @
27
I too am from NJ and disgusted with these two bastards.
CMike @ 33
Right now I agree with you. I know there is the big picture and control of the senate, however this is unacceptable.
dab from CT- Tight race or not it’s still no excuse.
You underestimate the significance of this. This vote is the end of the republic. Franklin warned us—he gave us a republic if we can keep it.
We failed.
The president was already exercising the powers of a dictator; now the Congress has ratified those powers. The Constitution is unenforced and, in fact, ceases to exist as a meaningful force.
The President by “law” can now kidnap any person, citizen or not, put that person in a secret prison, torture that person…and actually kill him. (The latter is not enshrined in the law, but the secrecy of the prisons makes the last part “de facto”.
We live in a dictatorship.
Now, like all dictators, Bush or his successor will use his powers more and more aggresively. He will overreach. If Americans are worthy of a republic, they will stand up to him. They will not cooperate. It will be like the Czechs against the Soviets.
But if Americans refuse to stand up for their inalienable rights, they will be enslaved. And they will deserve it.
I’ve lurked at this blog for almost a year. It has become part of my daily routine. This is my first blog post ever. For years I was not very political. I always voted, I supported environmental causes and women’s rights but I was totally oblivious to the rest of the political spectrum. I am now actually learning geography. I think that there are a lot more people out there like me that have become aware of how bad this administration has been and now we are starting to take action. While today’s torture bill is heartbreaking. We also have to look at the positive — that people are beginning to stand up. It is so hard to believe that any sane human being could vote for torture. I just to cry. Instead I intend to do more for progressive candidates. ActBlue just got a few more $$ from me. I am going to do what I can for Jim Brandt – my local candidate.
It’s time to close our wallets and stop buying anything that is not absolutely necessary and arrange to avoid all federal taxes. The only vote you have left is a dollar bill.
This Administration, Congress, Supreme Court and MSM are cancers at advanced stages killing our country.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
Abso-frickin’-lutely!
Menedez’s blog page is not loading, I wonder if he’s getting slammed by outrage. That’s why I’m trying to get there.
OK, I’ve been crying literally FOR HOURS, but someone in the “When in the Course of Human Events” thread — ah, yes, it was OldCoastie — pointed us to the following diary at Daily Kos, entitled:
“Calm the Fuck Down Already”
by a diarist named “thereisnospoon.”
I’m reading it now, and would appreciate if others would take a look both at the arguments he/she makes and the comments there — and let us know what you think about the points made.
My unhealthy adrenaline level dropped just reading the diary itself, and now I have to see if others argue in the diary comments against the author’s premises in a sufficient degree to get the adrenaline level BACK UP again.
In the meantime, Mr. K8 just got home, and he promised to take me and the pupster to a park to go for a long walk in the fresh (well, smoggy) Valley air to talk about all this and get some exercise at the same time.
Will look back in later to see if anybody critiques the Kos diary.
Sally @ 37
Gosh… don’t you want YOUR children to go to “Jesus Camp” (the name of the movie)? I sent prior information about it to my priest… just to freak him out…
CherylG @ 44
/Welcome Cheryl, thanks for coming out of the shadows.
I have to say that one of the greatest values of this and other blogs is providing a place to go to meet up with others of like mind who are equally disgusted. When I was in tears watching the Clinton witch hunts I didn’t know Digby was just a mile away from me doing the same thing, I thougth I was all alone. I hope that the knowledge that each of us is not alone and that our numbers is not small can hold us together to fight this thing in a way that may not have been possible before.
Publicus @ 44
Increasingly the average American looks a lot like the average Viewnamese citizen, about whom we often observed way back when that job 1 is filling his rice bowl and he really didn’t much care whether Uncle Sam or Uncle Ho was calling the shots so long as they didn’t bother him too much.
The average American wants to get his gas tank filled and be left alone, and really doesn’t give much of a shit about what goes on in the beltway which he figures won’t affect him much anyway.
That’s really what we’re seeing here. Apathy.
Oops, so sorry!
Here’s the daily kos diary I meant:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/28/193836/545
Millineryman @ 49
Could you post the link – I’d like to leave him a few choice words myself.
Thanks in advance
Boy oh boy, where do I start. Today was really dissapointing regarding the Senates passage of the “torture bill” I really wanted to see our Democratic Senators stand up & say absolutely “NO” to this hideous bill. Well that didn’t happen and it kinda “smarts” a little.
Then I got to thinking about a little bigger picture and frankly what transpired today in the Senate is actually meaningless (Thank you founding father’s, perhaps the number one collective brain trust ever assembled in anyones lifetime). The senate does not have the power to change the laws of our land with out the ratification of the Supreme Court. What they did today was play a game of “kick the can down the street”.
This was a political trap layed by Rove to entrap the Dems in their election strategy of, we are weak on security. The Dems didn’t fall for it and let this meaningless bill pass. It does not let w off the hook for war crimes nor is it the law of the land. The Supreme Court ruled against bushco in the Hamden case and this bill is written along the same lines as that case and will end up in the round file.
This was nothing more than a political card being played by Rove that did not go his way. They were looking for much more political capital to use against the Dems than what they got.
Still it’s a hard pill to swallow but the bigger picture is taking back the house or Senate in Nov and restoring sanity to our great country again.
Thanks for listening to me.
Jane Hamsher @ 51
amen.
Marion in Savannah @ 14
We are clearly cousins. I am barely willing to kill flies and mosquitoes because they carry disease that kills humans. I keep a ready supply of paper cups to capture and carry outside any small creatures that are here in my house. Decades after my paternal grandfather died my mom said he would capture and carry outside any small creature who was lost in the house. That’s on my cherokee side.
I once captured a snake that was in my house–me eight months pregnant–by talking to him and explaining to him that he needed to get in the bag that I held out, and that I would release him in the forest where he would be much happier.
Are you Cherokee? Scottish/Irish/Welsh?
Or just someone who honors life?
The only thing worse, I suppose, than posting a long comment that’s mostly a quote of someone else is to do it twice. I guess I’m in a mood where I don’t care right now. Here’s a part of Sen. Clinton’s speech on the Torture Act today. The rest is at:
http://atrios.blogspot.com/200…..9727117828
Many of the Hessians Washington spared that day later settled in Pennsylvania and New Jersey and became American citizens. The British, despite their cruelty and despite being one of the world’s preeminent military powers, were not able to persuade enough of the rebels to give up in order to defeat the rest. Five years later, they were gone.
Both parties should be thoroughly ashamed of their collective actions today. Individuals may be able to take some comfort in doing the right thing, but as parties they’ve disgraced themselves.
Oh, and Rep. Sherrod “I’ll stand up to my party when I think they’re wrong” Brown can eat my shorts.
me to me,
did you see the quote I posted for you from ‘Against All Enemies’ about the plan Richard Clarke gave to Condi and pals Jan 01? If not, it’s at the end of the thread where you asked the question, and also in “What Would Jesus Do?”, iirc.
OK at 35
If the Dems don’t win one of the houses in 2006 and/or win significantly in 2008 – I don’t think it’s going to matter whether or not any of us support the Dems.
John Dean was being “conservative” when he said Americans have two elections to fix the trend toward a fascist state (I happen to think we’re already in the bus heading down the highway). But if voters in November don’t see through Rove’s manipulation then I think we have one more shot (maybe).
I’m upset about what happened – but I’m not personally condemning the Senate Dems. They were two votes short of a fillibuster. I’m sure Lieberman was one of the two.
What breaks my heart is the testimony given by Generals Batiste and Eaton, and Col Hammes – the army is near collapse, the occupation has been a disaster – AND WHERE IS THE OVERSIGHT? Those men came forward and we owe it to them, whom ever leaked the NIE, and all those Americans who don’t yet understand how serious the situation is – to fight as hard as we can to change the composition of Congress.
Rove thinks we are going to splinter and disintegrate because of this “tactic.” He thinks the Repubs can bludgeon Dems with being soft on terrorism (I don’t think it will work). I’m glad that most of us understand this, will brush ourselves off and keep going.
It’s pushed me over the edge: I just e-mailed a friend to arrange carpooling to Bangor (ME) on Sat. I’m not even sure what the hell the demonstration is about; I just know I have to be there.
After seeing what the people who are supposed to represent us did today, acting in our name, “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
Isn’t that nice. I am not [expletive deleted] supporting “our party” any more. Ever. I’m also changing my enrollment to “independent.” I want a real party of opposition to fascist usurpation of the Constitution and nothing, aboslutely nothing less will do. I’m not playing this game any longer.
Mrs K8 was asking for comments on this diary posted at DailyKos.com
“Calm the Fuck Down Already”
I agree, she/he is right. We must keep calm and work to take back our government. There is much to loose here and much to win, I say “LETS WIN”!
Slothrop @
30
Yes, HE is a big mistake.
CherylG @ 43
Welcome, Cheryl, and GO GIRL! We’re glad you’re here.
I think in the vein of “Calm the fuck Down”… I do think this legislation was designed to give Rove and the rest an albatross to hang around the Dems’ necks…
I say we reverse that and hang this damn legislation around THEIR necks… seeing how as it’s a real abomination and all…
youkillednoodle @ 6:31pm (#64)
Another repost from a prior thread:
Democratic Senators voting yea (for the Torture Act):
Carper (D-DE)
Johnson (D-SD)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (L-CT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Republicans voting nay (against torture):
Chafee (R-RI)
Snow (R-ME) did not vote
Jeffords (I-VT) voted nay
NBC is doing a pretty good story on tonight’s news… “Bush asked for and got unprecedented power” re torture…
Windje & Millineryman [who has a totally cool website!]
I called there offices, twice a day, to say this bill is wrong.
It did no good. I thought Menendez was waffling, hedging his bets for the election. But Lautenberg’s staff assured me he opposed torture. Scumbags. I think the cold room is too good for them.
Here’s the email I sent to Menendez:
Dear Senator Menendez,
I called your office every day this week, speaking with your staff to register my deep and sincere belief that the Military Commissions bill was bad. Suspending habeus corpus, condoning torture–these are unAmerican and not only don’t advance American interests, they actually work counter to American interests. I have been following this issue closely, and your decision to vote for this awful piece of legislation has cost you this Democrat’s vote. How could someone who stood up to the machine in Hudson County not stand up to the Republicans? I am ashamed of you.
I will actually hold my nose and vote for him in November, because Kean filsis an idiot. Menendez really did stand up to the machine in Hudson County. But this will cost him Democratic votes.
And as for Lautenberg, he’s bought and paid for by AIPAC. He did their bidding on this.
What can we NJ folks do?
Anne @
12
I wouldn’t bet on another’s soul, but I’ll point out why Joe won’t make the cut with the pieties we can expect to see from him over the next few days.
Under Jewish law, fasting and prayer can at most forgive sins against God. Sins against other human beings require one to seek forgiveness from them directly and in earnest. Otherwise nothing’s washed away.
Joe would have to do something like go cell-to-cell on bended knee throughout Guantanomo and all the secret prisons to get off any bad lists he’s earned a place on through his actions.
You don’t have to place a bet to reckon the odds of that.
From rat bastahd’s first link at 6:14 p.m.:
“Asked what persuaded him to vote for the bill, Menendez said, “In view of the fact that the (Supreme) Court has ruled the existing process unconstitutional, it leaves us without anything. It seems to me while it is not the bill I wanted — as evidenced by the way I voted on the amendments — I think there has to be a process in place. I wouldn’t want those who have committed acts of terrorism to ultimately find the ability to be free by virtue of a lack of a (tribunal) process.”
This sounds like complete bullsh*t to me–that the government would have no means of trying terrorists without this bill (they could have passed another bill that provided a constitutional means of trying terrorists without authorizind torture or suspending habeas corpus, it seems to me). Is anyone familiar enough with the provisions of the bill to confirm that Menendez is full of sh*t?
egregious @ 56
Mrs K8 @ 53
Thank you so much for the link to the Kos piece. I certainly will recommend it.
I particularly like the following:
“4) A Democratic congress will easily reverse this bill. When the subpoenas start coming and Bush is on the hotseat for his crimes, there will be a MAJOR tailwind and drive to remove even the pretense of this horrible legislation. Bush is the Emperor without Clothes–and this butt-cover will blow right off when the winds kick up.
Of course, without a Democratic congress we won’t have that. And if you hand-wringers refuse to support Democrats, or some other drivel, on the basis of their reaction to this legislation in the face of political pressure, we won’t get a Democratic congress.”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/28/193836/545
This is Rove’s kabuki theater – not the end of the world. We can’t get distracted. The best thing we can do is say FU to Rove & Company and do everything we can to continue the trend toward Dems picking up at least one house of Congress
And we won’t forget which Dems – in either house – voted for this abomination.
Perhaps I’m being overly morose here, but all the talk about “taking back the Senate” or “taking back the House” doesn’t instill me with any hope whatsoever.
The Republican evil that has been foisted upon us has been aided and abetted by too many democrats in Congress for me to believe that a slim majority in either house will make the slightest difference. If only 32 senators voted against this atrocity, then the Republicans will still retain a majority even if Reid becomes the de facto “majority leader”.
We aren’t anywhere near the level of housecleaning that will give us enough of a progressive majority in either house of Congress to get anything meaningful done, let alone roll back the evils of the current administration.
Do you really think that those “democrats” who continually vote WITH Bush and the Republicans will actually vote to censure this president, or to impeach him? I can’t honestly see how anything will change. I don’t mean to be pessimistic but I tend to call things as I see them. I’m not ready to give up but I haven’t got enough hope left, since 2000 and all the ensuing horrors, to walk on the sunny side of the street.
I fear it will be business as usual no matter what the results of the next 2 elections and that scares the hell out of me. I’ll still man the phone banks for my union, canvass door to door, and send my pennies to candidates I believe in. There is a true leadership vacuum in the democratic party and I haven’t found anyone able or willing to fill it. Remember Roberts? Alito? DOMA? Welfare Reform? The Patriot Act? Sigh….
Ok, I delurked when Jane asked who was out there the other day. Now I’m so angry I could just spit.
I would just like to encourage everyone who drives to do some carblogging tomorrow. I put a sign up in my back window yesterday:
Torture: An American Value
Put up something. Short & Sweet. Big bold font. So much of America is asleep while are constitution is pillaged. Wake ‘em up.
Of course, I did get flipped off by a guy with four marine stickers on his car this morning.
the opposite of the yellow tie business… Brian Williams is wearing a purple tie (unless there is something wrong with my tv)… it is said that before times of great social change, you will start seeing much more purple, as it is the “color of change”… or transformation…
I’ll hang my hat on anything today…
I think that one effect Rove is looking for from his latest assault on the Constitution is to depress Democratic activists. Commenters on all the liberal sites are saying that they will not vote for democrats who voted for torture. What is that going to accomplish, except to hurt the prospects of getting control of at least one house?
If we have even one house, we can enact a statute repealing this unconstitutional garbage and force republicans to pass it by themselves in the other. We may even be able to get it passed by both houses, and force the republicans to support the act when our dear leader vetoes it.
Eventually we will get rid of it. We may have to get rid of a lot of democrats and republicans, but we will accomplish both goals. Otherwise, I will be moving to Paris. At least the French make good brie and wine to go with their authoritarianism.
neurophius @ 6:37 pm (#71)
There were at least four options, which might or might not have required a bit more legislation:
1. Let them go. Not a terribly satisfactory option, but not all that dangerous
2. Try them in Federal court
3. Try them in a military court
4. Hand them over to the Hague
There are probably other options, but I see nothing wrong with 2. or 3. in principle.
egregious @ 57
“Are you Cherokee?”
The heart of the Cherokee nation is in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. As may be known.
Mods,
Did I say something controversial? Is there a reason you are holding my post?
njprogressive @ 80
Were you writing about mutant rodents?
If we should happen to take back the Senate in November, I would be utterly appalled to have Rockerfeller replace Roberts after his disgraceful vote today to gut the Constitution. What change would there be in that? Could the blogs mount a campaign to prevent this happening? Or would Rockerfeller’s chairmanship be set in stone?
Deep into Gore Vidal’s memoir Point to Point Navigation. Tons of dish:
–Eleanor Roosevelt had the hots for Amelia Erhart.
–Clark Gable was one of George Cukor’s tricks when Clark was a hustler.
–Truman Capote ripped off Eudora Welty.
–Paul Bowles left the U.S. cause the NYPD had caught him in a sting with cops posing as hustlers.
–Garbo peed standing up.
And I’m not even halfway through!
As the German citizens largely stood by and let Hitler do his thing, so do we Americans largely do the same today.
Enough with the “Impeach” already. These are serious WAR CRIMES, so let’s set the damn trial date and get it on. Or better yet, hold the bastards indefinately without a hearing.
OldCoastie,
apparently Rove is being open about the fact that they intend to use the vote as a bludgeon in the “soft on terra” vein (mentioned on NBC Nightly News) — The kos diarist thereisnospoon makes much sense to me. I am distressed by Brown’s vote (Strickland had the sense to stay out of town), but it may have been the smartest thing to do. Besides, no way DeWine gets my vote over Brown (esp since I’m certain DeWine voted for it without even looking)
I liked this repost over at onegoodmove the other day about ‘branding’ the Republicans “The Torture Party”
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gm……html#more
definitely worth a read.
Windje & Millinery Man,
I felt like I was punched in the stomach by our two senators. What can we do. I managed to get an email off to Menendez, telling he’d lost this Democrat’s vote. But truthfully that’s just angry bluster on my part, because I can’t vote for Baby Kean. But there must be something we can do?
Mrs. K8 @ 49
I read the Kos diary, and I am not convinced. It may be true that the entire bill is unconstitutional–but we absolutely cannot depend upon the Supreme Court (with 7 Republican appointees–the court that stole the 2000 election and handed it to bush, but with two actual George Bush appointees replacing two of the members of that court)to strike this outrage down.
In the meantime, it will embolden the Cheney administration to go even farther beyond the bounds of decency than they have done so far.
And even if, as the Kos diarist argues, from a purely pragmatic viewpoint the vote on this bill doesn’t matter legally–if in fact the Supreme Court ends up striking it down–it is still unacceptable to me for Democrats to vote for violations of human rights, international law and the U.S. Constitution. We have to stand for something. What, if not this?
big bucket o’ corruption being reported tonight (NBC) on the $1.3 billion “gift” it appears the Dept. of Interior has more or less given the oil industry…
hmm – imagine that! free money for the oil industry… why do I hear the names “Bush/Cheney” when I hear the words “oil industry”?
we are going to reach critical mass here at some point…
cujo 359 H. Clinton usually leaves me cold, but this one brought tears to my eyes. It’s good to be reminded about where we come from. So, thanks.
Marion 9 Boswell (IA-3) is on your list. I do not defend what was done today, but I simply say this. He is in a squeaker. His opponent, Lamberti, is a thug from the IA legislature. Google him. Today’s passion play was pure politics. If Leonard thought this might sink his raft, I can forgive him, after a sufficient amount of chardonnay. If we do not take back the congress, we are screwed. End of analysis.
Most of the Dems backed us here.
Vote for all of them regardless of the vote.
We can hold their feet to the fire only after we have a majority.
Do not cut off your nose to spite your face as Rove will just point and laugh.
BQ @ 6:47 pm (#85) – Taylor Marsh has taken to calling the Republicans Republicans For Torture. I agree that we need to hang the torture label around their necks from now until election day. BobbyG had a great graphic for one of his local reps the other day, hopefully, he’ll share again.
When I’m upset, I can’t punctuate correctly. What I’d like to do is punctuate my two senators. Menendez actually stood up to the Hudson County machine. He’s had a spine in the past, but he’s clearly lost it in this close race. Lautenberg is bought and paid for by AIPAC.
[Pulling out clumps of hair, groaning, gnashing teeth] I’m heading over to the Orange Overload to read how to put this behind me, and move on, to keep up the good fight. But my two senators…not a dime from me.
njprogressive @ 85
You know I think there is a real danger here that Karl Rove’s gambit will succeed and people will not go out and vote for folks in tough races like Menendez and Brown who got boxed into these votes. I don’t like it that they succumbed, but if this bill succeeds in suppressing the vote amongst the base that is a real problem.
I’m not happy that Brown or Menendez voted for this bill. I would still go out and vote for them considering the alternative. I fucking HATE the idea of punching a ballot for Bob Casey but I would do it. The only hope we have of getting this thing rolled back is to take control of Congress and I do believe that if that happens we can do so. If we all get disgusted and pack up our marbles, we’ve got two more years of Republican rule and there is no way that this is a good thing.
afterthought @ 89
Yes, that says it much more succinctly.
Bush is not a torturer, he just believes in winning at any cost.
http://www.thismodernworld.com…..tml#001687
naschkatze @ 82
the only comfort I get right now is that if these knuckleheads choose political calculation over patriotism and WE hold the majority, they probably will be consistent in trying to hang with those in power… i.e., the Dems…
“we know that you are for sale, Madam, we now are only negotiating the price”… (Churchill, maybe?)
I’m with Jane. I’m voting all democratic no matter. This will pass but leaving the Republicans in is just a very bad idea.
Help us Obi Wan Kenobi, you are our only hope.
-GSD
Regarding the CTFD diary at DKos: I’m hardly one to advocate rampant displays of excitement, however in my opinion the “calm” that thereisnospoon (telling moniker in this context, that) is advocating has a faulty basis.
Invalid as this abominable law is, that does not mean that it will simply *poof* and vanish. It will take time, effort, and resources to get rid of, which means that something probably more productive will not get done. Someone, possibly more than one person, will have to be in harm’s way in order to create the court case or series of them that would eventually get the thing ruled off the books. And judicial intervention is likely to be the only way to rid ourselves of it in the near term, given the disgusting arithmetic of that vote today—pick up a net of seven or eight seats next month, and maybe you get a filibuster bloc, but you’re still well short of a majority on the bill. Then, there’s the dishonor factor. I’m sorry, but some of these senators and representatives have now made themselves more vulnerable than ever to the Rove crowd, just because they will feel, perhaps correctly, they have fewer other places to go.
I could go on; care to think really carefully, rather than just hopefully or with bravado, about the court situation? Perhaps we’ll survive this. Certainly we have to go down fighting for what’s right, and the best tactics will involve ActBlue actions among other things. But cognitive dissonance is not going to be the right sort of preparation for a fight this hard.
Jane, I trust you and will follow your lead here (thank goddess for Jane, et al!) but I don’t know anymore what it is I’m fighting for. The Democratic party has abandoned all the issues that are important to me: organized labor, gay rights, affirmative action, poverty issues, healthcare, etc. I vote for Democrats because once they stood for all the things that are important to me. I don’t beleive they do anymore but I don’t know what the alternative is. I have never missed an election in my life and I won’t miss the next two but I no longer believe that my vote will actually change anything in Washington, DC anymore. Perhaps I am just too disheartened by watching C-Span today and suffering so many defeats these past few years. I do believe that we will ultimately prevail and that good will overcome evil. Let’s get out there and fight the good fight! Go Jane!
Calling out Dem’s who supported the Decider:
Smart
Calling out Leibs4leiberman who support him:
Hamsheriffic
We all know it’s old news but how come we are not doing the happy dance tonight (I need a dance after watching the torture bill pass today!) about Abramoff and Rove. Guess what old Karl took money from Abramoff. Abramoff had run of the white house. Eight visits with Rove…lots of goodies, meals and trips…We need to do the happy dance!! It’s not good news before the election to have Rove dirty with a direct connection to Abramoff. Let’s smile.
CRUSH THE GOP!
Jane – I would love to a comment from John Dean on his reaction to what has happened in Congress this week and how he sees this fitting into Rove’s 2006 election strategy.
John Dean at 2:10
“I believe there is a solid chance that Democrats will regain the House. (The Senate right now looks like it will be 50/50.) And if the Democrats gain control of the House I have no quesiton that John Conyers will begin impeachment proceedings.”
J. Dean says:
September 3rd, 2006 at 2:46 pm
At 22: “Mr. Dean, are you as afraid as I am?”
No. Fear is a healthy response to a dangerous sitution but Americans still have control of their government — if they decide to exercise it. I certinaly hope they do. I have written for good reason that the ‘06 and ‘08 election cycles are vital for they will set the agenda for the 21st Century. I say that because we are a divided nation right now, and it could easily tip either way.
Mrs. K8 @ 53
Thank You,
I am feeling a little better now.
was really upset and no one to direct anger at as Leach is my congressman and Grassley has been a souless creep for a while.
Of course, there’s always invtervention by Obi Wan Kenobi;)
I don’t often quote Andrew Sullivan:
“The only response is for the public to send a message this fall. In congressional races, your decision should always take into account the quality of the individual candidates. But this November, the stakes are higher. If this Republican party maintains control of all branches of government, the danger to individual liberty is extremely grave. Put aside all your concerns about the Democratic leadership. What matters now is that this juggernaut against individual liberty and constitutional rights be stopped. The court has failed to stop it; the legislature has failed to stop it; only the voters can stop it now. If they don’t, they will at least have been warned.”
I too believe that the timing of this despicable bill is Rovian. It is a bright shiny object meant to derail the growing clout of progressive blogs. He knows we’re gnashing our teeth and swearing off the dems who voted for this.
But this is a REPUBLICAN BILL. The Republicans are the TORTURE PARTY.
We need to keep our eye on the ball, make sure Democrats retake both houses.
And then, at our leisure, we can punish the assholes who voted aye on this bill.
2003 Bush speech on torture:
Choice quotes: “Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right…The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.”
He was lying as he spoke the words.
I’ve missed much of the last few hours, so apologies if this has already be said, but….
1) If our only real hope is that SCOTUS will take this up and decide on its constitutionality, and 2) we need a specific case before them for this to happen, and 3) the administration now is able to imprison any “terrorist” without notifying anyone (for ever) or 4) notifying them as to why they are held and with what evidence, then 5) how the HELL is this individual (case) going to be found, and 6)a viable defense mounted?
David:
That Truman Capote ripped off Eudora Welty is not news.
The rest of it, though, is juicy.
All I want, and I admit, in the main, it seems a tall order, is for my party (Democrat) to represent the working men and toiling women of this country. And their kids.
Cujo359 @
91
http://www.bgladd.com/Congress…..orture.jpg
Pay it forward.
All- please be patient if a comment ends up in moderation. The spam filter catches stuff automatically sometimes for various reasons that are outside our control. We do this for free, because we believe in what FDL is trying to accomplish. However, we have real jobs and real lives, and cannot be available every single moment of the day or night. If there was one note I could add to the guidelines at FDL, it would be “don’t hassle the mods.” We do the best we can. I understand that people may wonder why a comment is caught in automatic moderation, but often there is no clear answer, because frankly, the WP “spam” filter is clunky imo. Not meaning to single anyone out, because I know that many people have wondered why comments are caught in auto mod. Just to say that sometimes “it happens” and we do our best to release them quickly. Released comments show up only on page reload F5, not via “refresh comments” button.
completely, throughly, totally OT – Bette Midler is on Bravo on the “Actor’s studio” (or whatever it’s called) doing an interview and she’s absolutely adorable…
learned hound @ 61
Paraphrased from what I pulled in above from the last thread, where I was EPU’d:
So. Now you want to quit? You want to lie down and have a temper tantrum? PUH-LEEZE. We actually CANNOT DO ANYTHING unless we take back at least one house of Congress. Suck it up, and do like the medical examiners do: smear some Vicks Vapo-Rub under your nose, get into the polling place, hold your nose, and do your job. If that job isn’t done THIS YEAR I doubt it ever will be. Better you get pissed at me for yelling at you and then go vote then you just sit in the corner and sulk… {donning flame-proof suit}
Not to worry Jane. I told him he’d lost my vote just to register my strong
disapprovaldisgust with this vote. But I couldn’t bring myself to vote for Baby Kean. Not now, not ever. used to have some respect for his dad, but after Path to 9/11, it’s gone. The son is more conservative than the father–a child of these times.Ugh. Going to bed. Feel better after reading that Kos diary by thereisnospoon. Thanks to all who recommended it.
Will be spitting mad in the morning-and better able to think clearly about what to do.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 112
I agree.
David Ehrenstein @ 81
And you would be telling us this because…..????
katie Jensen @
102
Katie – ThinkProgress has this: http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..s-exposed/
There is more, according to the Drudge Report, brought to my attention by one of my friends:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm
BQ @ 59
yes, that was it, I meant to thank you…excellant
handle @
109
The United States is leading the world in redefining the definition of torture so that it can be used more universally and with greater frequency.
Washington and Jefferson would surely be proud.
-GSD
uniquely_tim @ 95
THANK YOU!!! YES!!! Unless they’re gone we have no hope of doing jackshit….
I may have just heard that wrong, but the Senate has passed the Torture Bill. Which kind of makes my Late Nite post redundant, but eh, too late to write another one now.
My brother has an excellent Late Late Nite post in the bank for tonight as well.
neurophius @
32
THE ONE AND ONLY!! And these DC clowns talked Hackett out of running for Brown…come on!!
Marion in Savannah @ 123
Yes, me too. Please know that this is why God gave us two thumbs and index fingers – so that while we are voting with one hand, we can hold our nose with the other! :-/
I’ve been here, mostly lurking almost all afternoon & into the evening.
Today’s events were devastating to me as well as a lot of others at FDL, especially since I first noticed disturbing aspects in the rise of this administration well before 2000, and have been watching closely, with growing horror, ever since.
Yes, it’s like watching an awful car wreck in slow motion, and it just never stops.
Tonight, I’ve waited, and waited, but Pach didn’t show up after this latest crisis to urge us up off our collective “fainting couch”, as he usually does.
Perhaps he’s busy, or perhaps he’s waiting to see if we’ve reached the stage that we can recover independent of his fatherly prodding.
(I know, I know. Look, I’m 60-something myself! So…?!)
Point being: we’re all “down” now. But we have terrific strength, especially together.
I’m heartened to see glimmers in this thread, showing folks are already sorting through the fallout, and making plans to move ahead.
We must do so, individually and together. Personally, I’m gonna take tonight off from the fray, then start afresh tomorrow using voting records and events of this day to write each & every Senator individually, praising mightily or faintly, or singeing their hide (respectfully, of course, heh), depending on how they performed as individuals during the short, dirty ride of S. 3930 through their formerly hallowed chambers.
Some few made us cheer. Many others should be hanging their heads in utter shame and disgrace.
If others join me, or choose their own ways to contact legislators, the joint effort will help those thick heads in D.C. to understand that we are strong, and we are watching. We are watching and documenting everything they do in the name of governance. And we will remain quiet no longer. We are angry. We are committed. And we. will. not. go. away.
Night all. Try to sleep. Tomorrow’s another day, and we have work to do.
Priscilla, Queen of the Beach @
100
I get it, believe me. But we can fight all we want within the party for better representatives (like Ned Lamont) and if the party is not in power, they will have little effect on what happens.
We have to get them in power AND kick the shit out of them to stand up for progressive values or back other candidates who will. It’s what we do with the ActBlue page but it’s a two-pronged approach. I don’t like Bob Casey and unless something really drastic happens I’m sure I’ll be very active in supporting a strong primary challenger to him next time around. Ken Salazaar? Oh I so do not want to hear people from Colorado say “he’s the best we can do” and that nobody from outside Colorado should therefore be critical of him. Pressure within the party needs to be relentless, but unless we can get them the majority they need so folks like John Conyers can chair his hearings (like someone mentioned above) it will all mean little.
It’s hard to stay motivated in the wake of this but it’s got to be done or the McCain Torture Bill will have had its intended effect. I’m gonna grit my teeth like njprogressive @ 117 (good on ya) and vote.
The Torturing Decider has dispatched with his sleazy bi-partisan pretentions and has taken to referring to “cut and run” Democrats on the campaign hustings….
Sleaze-bag…..
Just like his buddies Rove and Mehlman.
-GSD
Jane and afterthought at 93
AMEN!
Moesie @
125
Now there’s something we should ponder in our hearts for the next nominating season.
I felt like I was wandering in the wilderness today. Where was Moses?
We need to pour it on. We MUST defeat the Republican ideology. Lamont will win. The Democrats will take the Congress back. There WILL be a Democrat in the WH in 2008! And now I am out of the valley of brief despair.
OT – On a positive note, Woodward’s yet to be released book State of Denial: Bush at War is already number NINE on Amazon!
http://www.amazon.com/State-De…..mp;s=books
Can you say October Surprise?? ; )
Am quickly sauteeing chicken tenders on our way out the door for the much needed walk in the dog park, but I have enough time to say this much:
Thanks for the comments on the dKos diary, pro and con, and please keep it up. Late late tonight I will reread all comments here and at dKos, and it helps to hear all manner of opinion on it.
Here’s another thought — the media-military-industrial complex may have thought they were very clever keeping this whole vote under wraps today, however –
By keeping it quiet in the press, it’s not having quite as much of an effect in suppressing the Democratic base as they would hope. Let’s face it — the percentage of Democratic voters (and Indies and even Repubs) who know exactly what went down in the Senate and its ramifications is pretty small. In this case, the whole “low information voter” business will not help Rove so much. He can hardly go around bashing Dems loudly about torture, when it’s a Republican bill, and it’s something the administration lusted over.
In the meantime, what is still eating up oodles of press is Iraq and Afghanistan, and now Abramoff corruption writ large INSIDE the White House — that was a great segment on Keith tonight!
Thanks to that worm, Woodward, “BUSH IS A BIG FAT LIAR” is getting much more airplay. Woodward is indeed a worm, but this big splash makes me wonder if even Woodward can see how the worm turns.
OK, that’s my thought for now.
Will indeed be back later. You guys are my source of strength (right after Mr. K8 and the pupster).
And many blessings sent to our dear friend egregious for her insight into the battle against evil!
Kelven @ 24
Kelven–
YOUR love of life is what the rest of us are struggling to catch up with. You are seeing something deeply true, and it is so shockingly far from this administration as to make one mentally ill just contemplating the difference.
REVERENCE FOR LIFE. The current administration? Not so much.
Ah, I see I’ve been mentioned.
I have been busy this afternoon. With a client then home quick and out to Drinking Liberally.
I could do a big speech, but there’s no way this doesn’t suck. I’m very pissed off. The only way to turn this around is to elect progressives, and the only way to elect progressives is to use the Democratic party to do it with, and use the committee power of a majority to call hearings, get people under oath and pass legislation.
I worked hard on this. You did too. We lost. We were short on power and short on time. Power we can build if we keep working.
I’m not going to blame anyone for being pissed. I’ve sent a couple of high level emails this week that were not, shall we say, gentle.
One thing I would note is that none of the presidential wannabe’s went the wrong way on this, the way they did in ‘02 on the Iraq vote. Small consolation, I know, but it does show we’ve got more power than we had 4 years ago, and so continuing the path we’ve embarked upon to accrue and weild power together is critical to getting this turned around.
And after the election, we can get back to hitting compromised dems harder, once we get republicans out and progressives elected to change more of the composition of the Dems on the Hill.
And then, of course, we have the ‘08 primary season to engage in 07, and the FDL primary, wherein we are courted.
Once this POS is signed, we are going to need cogent and thorough analysis of the bill’s details from our FDL legal eagles, for accurate talking points.
_
Re: Sherrod Brown
That’s indeed the report. Still, I want to know more before flying off the handle. Brown has a long history of careful deliberation, innovation, leadership, and courage. He has been an EXCELLENT House member.
I’ll try to get some info. from his office on this vote.
egregious –
Gotta end the night now but just wanted to say I get it about the evil and the battle. Kind of like eating from the ‘tree of good and evil’. Now you know the real deal and you can smile about having gained that knowledge.
Jane Hamsher @ 93
Jane, you are right, of course. I am a yellow dog democrat and normally would be making that same argument. I don’t live in a state or district of any of the Democratic transgressors (although a Democratic house member in my state did vote for torture) so I won’t be faced with a tough decision in the voting booth. But I am still very upset. And I want Sherrod Brown to send me my money back so I can give it to someone who voted to stop the horror.
Jane
The Bob Casey argument is one I’ve made to my friends who live in Philly. The image of the expression of one friend in particular is burned forever in my memory.
It can’t hurt though to let them know they are on the wrong side of the issue, and make them justify it. I’m just angry right now. There’s no way in hell I would vote for Kean, so Menedez does have my vote and I will work to get him elected.
NJ Progressive, Windje let’s let them know our feelings and once we get the majority back, we can hold them accountable.
Mrs. K8 at 134 And many blessings sent to our dear friend egregious for her insight into the battle against evil!
I battle evil every day, from the moment I wake up. It is a monster. Perhaps it is a blessing [????] in that I am conscious of evil as something real, something which must be fought and resisted constantly.
Other people are now discovering the existence of REAL EVIL, the Bible kind, that we must work together to slay. Some of us will fall, others will come forward to fill the gap and keep fighting.
WE WILL WIN, but it will not be painless. Keep the faith.
Love for all fdl’ers.
Wow, such exciting new party names we have to look forward to when real Democrats defeat these Incumbents in their upcoming primaries:
Delaware for Carper
South Dakota for Johnson
Louisiana for Landrieu
New Jersey for Lautenberg
New Jersey for Menendez
Arkansas for Pryor
West Virginia for Rockefeller
Colorado for Salazar
Michigan for Stabenow
Florida for Nelson*
Nebraska for Nelson
* luckiest Floridian officeholder EVER.
Oh, and can I get a big T-O-R-T-U-R-E for New Jersey, the Both Democratic Senators for Torture State?
Hi Pach
Sorry to disturb yer reverie, &/or liberal drinking….. ;->
helina handbasket @ 36
It’s not over yet. See what happens Friday.
Adie:
Oh, no problem. I’m beat tired and unwinding as I review my chances of being disappeared by my government.
Overall I do have to say Lautenberg, and from I’ve been seeing from Menendez up to today, are on the right side of the issues.
As I mentioned earlier, Lautenberg always sends me a response to my letters and e-mail. It may take a while, and when it does, it’s noted in the response about the lapse. It was just so out of character I felt sucker punched.
I’ve been trying to write something to all of you for the past couple of hours, and I can’t find words that don’t sound stupid. I love you all and honour your integrity and commitment to what is right and just.
dab from CT @ 72
Yup, I going to do as the Kos blogger says. I think he’s right. I’m dusting myself off and getting back in the race. So….
What I’m truly wondering about now is Bob Woodward. This interview and book is a bombshell.
Do you think it’s at all possible that he saw how suspicious and secretive and ultimately dangerous this cabal is and needed to get into their good graces in order to get at the real story…lull them into a false sense of security as it were?
Or did he just have an epiphany?
“(Marion’s reply starts here) Okay. So, if “no time, no money, no votes” I guess we just roll over and hand this over now? We give up now? My congresscritter, John Barrow, is on your list. I’ll hold my nose and vote for him, and then we’ve got 2 years to get his mind right or fire him. So you want to quit now??? I’m thinking this is not the time to lie down and hold our breaths and kick and scream… We cannot do ANYTHING AT ALL if we don’t take back the Congress, and that means voting for some of these folks. Do what medical examiners do… Smear some Vicks Vapo-Rub underneath your nose, get in there, and do your job. {putting on flame-retardant suit}”
Well, you do what you feel is best. But without consequences, the Democratic party will never have the tight unity and vote control that the Republicans have.
If you think voting for the same old incumbant D’s regardless of how they vote on progressive issues will help make the Democratic Party more progressive, then you have a right to that opinion. I disagree.
For me, no more. Support of torture is an issue that in my personal belief system sends someone straight to hell. And I won’t support it even indirectly regardless of the negative short term consequences that lack of support may have.
Darn it Pach!
Talk like that’s gonna send me back to that fainting couch. Cut it out!
Jane Hamsher @ 6:55 pm (#93)
I agree about this danger, and would almost certainly vote as you suggest. The problem these folks are going to experience, though, is that we all have to prioritize where we send our campaign donations and volunteer. I don’t give money or work for candidates I don’t believe will make good representatives. That’s why I’m pissed at Brown – I sent him money and then he voted to enable the kidnapping and torturing of innocent people and compounded that insult by flipping off his party for trying to do the right thing. Assuming he wasn’t misqoted by that MSNBC story, he’s dead to me.
I suspect Rove’s priorities were more along the lines of just saving his and his bosses asses, but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, there are always crises that create divisions among people. This bill was one of them. Blaming this on Karl Rove for what he made the Democrats do is a bit like blaming the mirror for the image you see in it. I blame all the people who voted for that bill, regardless of the motivations.
I am seriously considering sending the following to my senators, cornhole and sluttin’some:
As a kid during the Viet Nam War, I remember seeing bumper stickers asking “Who would Jesus bomb?” In that spirit, I offer the following:
“Who would Jesus rub shit on?”
“Whose legs would Jesus pulpify?”
“Who would Jesus make stand in one place for 40 hours, beating them if they sat or fell down?”
“Who would Jesus waterboard?”
“Who would Jesus fuck with a mop handle?”
“Who would Jesus beat to death, and dump the body?”
“Whose testicles would Jesus attach electrodes to?”
“Who would Jesus make strip and simulate gay sex with each other?”
“Who would Jesus suspend by their arms until their own weight dislocated their shoulders?”
“Who would Jesus abduct, fly to Syria and deliver to security agents so their fingernails can be pulled out?”
Fern @ 148
Now, that doesn’t sound stupid at all, does it?? Thanks. As a relative newbie myself, you’ll find that you don’t always have to live up to Jane and Christy and Pach and TRex… All you have to do is care. Which you obviously do, so, welcome Firepup.
How about not having the guts to finish the job and leaving it for the next president, whatever whom that may be, republican or democrat, what a coward.
At the discretion of the executive, means that we now live in a monarchy, at the king’s discretion.
Also, for those of you eyeing that long northern border, we are currently experiencing a labour shortage.
Hi Fern @148
Um, I think we can go with love, honor, integrity and commitment to what is right and just. We can probably live with that. ;-)
Welcome here.
jello5929 @ 150
Now that your position is clear, how to you plan to change anything? What or who are we supposed to rally behind to take control of what may be left of the United States? I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this.
TeddySanFran @ 143
Sad, very sad is all I can say Teddy.
youkillednoodle @
84
IIRC, after Bush signs this, war crimes are no longer a “cause of action” in U.S. courts.
SharonW @ 149
Woodward has mainstream cred big time. The defacto historian of record on all things political in D.C. Heh heh
Remember this:
The biggest tragedy is that this whole debacle, from the ignoring the warnings about al Qaeda, to the deception to get us into war with Iraq, to the “outing” of Valerie Plame, to the unwarranted N.S.A. domestic surveillance, to this obviously un-necessary and un-Constitutional bill is that it’s being done with almost no thought. All they seem to know how to do is spin things to make them happen, to leverage political power in their favor. But the things they do are ill-conceived, and frequently solutions to their last mistake – things that are sure to lead to the next one [next mistake].
So, that’s why it’s so hard to know what to say about things like this. It’s just another meaningless marker on a road to nowhere. Torturing detainees, keeping them imprisoned forever, “staying the course,” ignoring the Constitution – just more markers on a road to nowhere…
TeddySanFran @ 143
They can all just get together and form The Disappearers’ Party. That way, they wouldn’t have to change the (D-XX) after their names.
I am hoping – praying! – that those who voted for this evil bill without reservations, knowing what was in it, will have nightly visitations from the signers of the Constitution and the Declaration, for as long as it takes to get this country back to what it should be. Or at least until they’re on trial for war crimes.
From Mrs. K8:
Here’s another thought — the media-military-industrial complex may have thought they were very clever keeping this whole vote under wraps today, …
No doubt. But perhaps an encouraging sign is that NPR hourly is leading with it, and the short report from Ari Shapiro gets in some of the ugliest features of the bill. So maybe the asymmetrically informed headstart will favor the progressive side this time.
Haven’t noticed if anyone else did, but I found follow-up to the mention of the Abramoff-Rove story at TPMuck. That might be a good thing to talk up tomorrow, since between the rape of the Republic and Abramoff, I think the GOPers would rather people talked about rape.
Hey Jane (if you are still up): You promised us a contest at some point – maybe early next week. (Sorry, just trying to push myself up from the floor). Remember the October surprise contest? I don’t think this torture business was it (Bushies here needed to covering their asses). My bets are still: Iran invasion (horrors, we need to really ramp up to stop this), a new OBL/or other terrorist tape ripping into Bush and drawing sympathy; and an attack (or threat) of some sort here in the U.S.
Maybe if we think more about what may be headed our way, we won’t be a blind sided as much as we were on this one.
Here’s something I’ve been saying in some other contexts, and let me repeat it here.
We have our culture war, our signature values issue: torture.
Not anti-abortion, not anti-gay marriage: that’s the wingnuts.
Torture.
We will organize around this and turn the total repeal of today’s bill into a litmus test. We will organize around pro-habeas and pro-human rights judges. We’ll run primary candidates and expel from power Dems who won’t stand up for the Bill of Rights.
Torture.
These are our values. No torture. Yes to human rights an universal dignity of persons, and to the common good. We are values voters.
SharonW @ 149
Perhaps it’s his atonement for his stupidity regarding his role in the Plame mess. I think the public reaction took him totally by surprise.
Jane Hamsher @ 92
Jane, you’re absolutely correct. The one thing Rove seems to know how to do is divide and conquer.
He’d just love for the Dems to either support minority parties or not vote at all out of disgust.
We are and always have been the party of public hand-wringers. We need an attitude of take no prisoners. We’ll sort out the dead-to-us after we take back Congress.
Every Democratic voter who stays home or who votes for another party is voting to keep the Repugs in power. It’s just too damn close for any voter weakness. Don’t let Rove win this one.
Fern @ 156
Fern, what cities do you recommend?
Pach at 167
YES!
BTW, you’ve got mail. ;->
BobbyG @ 137
What Bobby said! Let’s hang this piece of shit around their necks like a dead albatross. (Marty Lederman has already done a lot of analysis, but more needs to be done.)
Jane, thanks for reminding us of these biographical tidbits. Let me condense this to a more general, three-word statement of historically demonstrated fact:
Bush enjoys torture.
Once more, for emphasis.
Bush enjoys torture.
I hope that enough of the American voting public is sufficiently afraid of the consequences of having this man in this position. I hope that they plan to do something about it. I sure as hell plan to cast my vote against every enabler of this son of a bitch that I have a say about.
knuckledragger @ 153
I’m trying to work up a new job description for all those torturers we’ll need to hire now:
Do you think you have what it takes to be a part of our team? We need folks who are willing to do what needs to be done to protect the American Way. If you:
* Love to wear black?
* Have a rudimentery understanding of human anatomy?
* Have some control over your impulses?
You may be just who we’re looking for. Must not be squeamish about children’s genitals. Must be willing to travel extensively. Beer bellies and bad hygene not required, but prefered.
Minimum CS grade GS-11. With some college experience this could be GS-12 or -13.
Anyway, I just can’t seem to make it mean enough.
Pachacutec @ 167
THANK YOU! So now maybe perhaps the people who’ve been clutching at their pearls and taking to the fainting couch might have something to bring them out to vote?? Or not, because, after all, that Dem failed them????
I live in a red state, so I don’t have the luxury of “taking the high ground” and refusing to vote for my congresscritter. The alternative is far, far worse. My real question, after two days of reading comments from people who are saying things like “no money, no support, no vote,” etc., etc., etc., is WHAT THE F**K ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO????
If anyone has a better idea that we can all implement in 5 weeks PLEASE let me know…
{rant over}
dab from CT @ 7:59 pm (#168)
Or maybe the fame went to his head. It’s a cliche, but it’s a cliche for a reason …
Fern @
156
welcome Fern -
and any leads on the demand for psychiatrists in Vancouver, B.C.?
“Now that your position is clear, how to you plan to change anything? What or who are we supposed to rally behind to take control of what may be left of the United States? I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this.”
We rally behind the real progressives. Every one of us is limited in time, money, and influence. There are plenty of real progressive candidates we can spend our time, money, and influence on. Frankly there are more candidates than there is progressive money.
Let the DLC take care of the Democratic candidates who don’t support progressive issues. Maybe we support some longshots instead. Wasn’t Ned Lamont a total longshot?
When it comes to voting, yeah sure vote for who you gotta vote for. Lesser of two evils.
But when it comes to endorsements, fund-raising, volunteering, etc. why should we allow ourselves to be nothing but a supporter of whatever junk the DLC feeds us for candidates.
Yes, we’ll have less Democratic seats that way. But maybe, just maybe, we’ll end up with more progressive seats.
Oh, another day brightner outside of Woodward, I haven’t had chance to peruse the news online outside of what we’ve been discussing, but I did catch this on ABC World News Tonight while typing at the same time.
Big Abramoff bombshell tomorrow coming out of some committee’s report. It appears the Whitehouse did favors and took them, too. Circumstantial evidence from Abramoff’s emails and billing info confirms this.
It might have been an ABC exclusive, not sure.
This is a chickenshit bill, made by and for a chickenshit administration that hears the raven croaking.
Vote Democrat in November, and you will live to see the Bush administration on trial.
Believe it
I only thought Sherrod Brown was a little asshole until I read that article; now I realize he’s a proctological 7th wonder of the buttocks.
He needs to never, ever, ever, ever, ever, be allowed to serve in public office.
I am doing my best to be rational about this, to dampen down my own feelings of rage, of shame, yes, even of humiliation.
But, I can’t get past the utter boneheadedness of the Democratic leadership not closing ranks–failing to showing precisely the sort of discipline that comes so easily to the `pugs. The only reason there was no filibuster was that there were enough Democratic senators voting for cloture. That’s a lack of discipline at a time when there was a desperate need for some.
After looking at a few other blogs, the vote results are having a predictable effect–there are people out there, people who have supported and worked for candidates who are withdrawing their money and support because their candidates voted for this abomination.
In a way, this is understandable, because of the very, very substantial moral, ethical and political import of this legislation. I wouldn’t blame anyone who turned his or her back on a politician voting for this out of an outrage stemming from moral indignation. Nevertheless, it works to the advantage of Republicans.
For a party supposedly supporting and having the support of unions, the Democrats seem to know nothing of union principles–the very first of those being solidarity, which is the root of Rove’s ability to divide–and then conquer–his opposition.
What irks me most, though, is that the Democrats keep falling for the same trick. Precisely this happened with USA PATRIOT Act, the Afghan AUMF, the Iraq AUMF, the 2004 Intelligence Reform Act and the 2004 election, generally. That election might well have been different if the national Democratic hierarchy had been in solidarity with the people it presumed to represent and the views they generally held.
I disagree with the dKos diarist who thinks we should calm down about this–that’s smoke and mirrors to my mind. This is important, because it goes to the very heart of people’s conception of their government. What once could have been solely attributed to an Executive branch which was out of control has now been legitimized by the people’s representatives. Externally, around the world, this will tell those of other nations that the people of the United States approve of this behavior and this abridgement of their own rights. The rest of the world will think that we are not only venal, but stupid, as well.
Second, the language of this law will make it very difficult for any legal challenge to reach the lower courts, and therefore, the Supreme Court. Even without this law impeding progress through the courts, it took Hamdan v. Rumsfeld about four years to reach the high court. Tactically, it will also give the White House even more leeway to ignore procedural requirements which might lead to a court challenge. Let’s face it, this wasn’t a Republican bill, per se. It was a White House bill, written by White House legal staff who got their degrees from the Schutzstaffel School of Law.
The next area of real concern is the imprecision of the language regarding who can be classified an unlawful combatant. U.S. citizens living inside the U.S. are now fair game, to use what is, by now, a shopworn cliche, and would be subject indefinite, and quite possibly, incommunicado detention. That is a major change from what the Bush administration was capable of doing in the past.
Last, there are the amnesty provisions. The Democrats, even if they win back one or both houses this November, have thrown away the legal basis for any substantive challenge to the authority that the White House and Bush have seized. The Democrats have generally been trying to run on the issue of accountability, and yet, they have undermined their ability to make the administration accountable.
Standing together would have been better for the Democrats, individually and collectively.
*sigh*
lina @ 170
Well, it depends on what you are looking for. Mostly people are interested in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver – but you can have a real good quality of life in some of the smaller centres where the cost of housing is more reasonable – I live in Winnipeg – 600,000 people, ethnicaly diverse, more cultural life than you’d think for a city this size.
I’ve been cloistured by work since early this morning and only recently learned that the Senate has, as expected, voted for the Stalinistic detainee bill.
And as so many fdl-ers have expressed, it feels like death. Painful. Mournful. Excruciatingly illogical and unfair.
So on this day and night of despair, I went back to one of the most cherished of American documents — The Declaration of Independence –and came away with this:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them to absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.
Jefferson is right. And all the fire-pups who said tonight “Get thee and thy friends and neighbors to the polls” are right. We must regain control of one or both houses to throw off this government and bring the Tyrant in the White House to account.
The Dems were two votes short of a fillibuster. I’m sure Lieberman was one of the two.
Another quote from our discussion with Dean:
“My reading of Professor Altemyer’s work suggests that when authoritians lose they simply redouble their effort to win next time. This is how they built the conservative movement for they certainly lost in 1964, and have been building ever since.”
Mary @ 181
You rock, Mary
jello5929 @ 178
Thanks for your reply, and if you’re in a blue state I can see where you’re coming from. However, here deep in the heart of the red map (kinda the buckle on the Bible Belt) I may just have to work as hard as I can to keep even my deeply flawed congresscritter. I truly don’t think we can afford to take “less Democratic seats” lightly for the next 4 to 8 years. It will take AT LEAST that long to undo the damage that’s been done by Bush Co., Inc., LLC, LTD.
knuckledragger @ 153,
Who Would Jesus Crucify? :
A detainee named Awayed Wanas Jabar died in U.S. custody in Iraq after having his legs tied to the bars of a window and a strap of engineer tape tied tightly around his midsection. A preliminary inquiry stated that, “His position resembled that of a person who had been crucified.” According to one Marine, the detainee seemed “exhausted, with his entire bodyweight appearing to be supported by the strap around his midsection.” Jabar remained in that position for at least an hour and a half and died approximately 15 minutes after the tape was cut. Because no autopsy was conducted, an investigation was unable to conclude if the cause of death was asphyxia.
me? I think I’ll go back into ATTACK! ATTTAAACKKKK! I’ve got a giant piece of cardboard at work waiting to go into the dumpster but I think it’d have a better use as a freeway sign: “GOP – The Torture Party”… my district is as red as it comes…. might as well stir up the populace…
oh goody! a crafts project!
Visibly, we have not one but two battles to fight. One for control of congress. Another for control of our own party. Obviously, we have to fight them in that order. But once this election is over, I intend to get involved in local democratic politics.
Apparently, the national democratic leaders don’t love progressives. Then let them fear us.
like everyone elese here, i was devisated when i saw the final tally and realized that democrats had actually enabled this monstrosity.
i am a scoutmaster, and for our meeting tonight, we had a roundtable on citizenship and the constitution. the conversation turned to illegal immagration and the kids parroted their parents bias to “kick em all out”. i did’nt tell them what to think , but asked them to put themselves in the position of a poor farmer on the wrong side of the border who needs to feed his family. they were more thoughtful after seeing it from the other side.
i may not change anything in the 30 minutes or so that we had, but i believe that along with replacing the present crop of clueless politicians, we need to, in the words of csn&y, “teach our children well”. my rugrats are going to get a steady diet of constitutional goodness.
LG,
Not only is irony dead, it’s cold.
neurophius @
32
I agree.
montag 182 – “The next area of real concern is the imprecision of the language regarding who can be classified an unlawful combatant. U.S. citizens living inside the U.S. are now fair game, to use what is, by now, a shopworn cliche, and would be subject indefinite, and quite possibly, incommunicado detention. That is a major change from what the Bush administration was capable of doing in the past.”
Haven’t they been holding Jose Padilla for four years?
Mary at 181
Go ahead & flame me if you must, but I hope you’ll sleep on that and feel at least a little more mellow in the a.m.
FWIW, I will try to see if his ofc has some explanation worth sharing…
No, I don’t know him personally, but I have known of his performance, and respected him for too many years to give up on him over this.
He’s always been a true progressive & a straight shooter in the past. (not just words, but his actions, voting record, etc.)
Cujo359 @ 163
We just have to keep our eye ont he prize win back house and senate then get rid of the Dinos it is not about just 1 election cycle
Fern @ 183
I love Nelson, B.C.
Just for what it’s worth… {putting on tinfoil hat}
If I were Karl Rove this is just the kind of discussion I would want liberal Democrats to have… saying that they’re refusing to support a Democrat… I can almost hear him laughing. This whole vote, as odious as it is, may be the “October Surprise” that we’ve all be speculating about.
SURPRISE!
Pachacutec @ 167
Right on, Pach. And that said, I think Sherrod Brown gamed us here. FU*K him.
L.G. Fucktard @ 187
Courtesy of a request I made of darkblack:
http://img.photobucket.com/alb…..ck/ca1.jpg
I’m throwing out my thanks to him (or her) again, if (s)he didn’t see it last night.
lina @ 193
Yes, but he initially had access to legal counsel–that’s how we know of his existence, his name, and the purported reasons why he was detained. It was also the reason why his case was eventually transferred to criminal courts, because his lawyers had forced the government’s hand.
That goes away with denial of habeas corpus. If you don’t know someone’s been snatched, and the government is under no legal obligation to provide access to the civilian courts, then you’ve been legally disappeared….
Sherrod Brown opposed by incumbent right-winger Mike DeWine.
Voting records as different as day vs. night.
That MEANS something, folks!
sorry if it makes me sound like a spoilsport, but I hate lynch mob mentality.
G’nite all.
“Were you writing about mutant rodents?”
Yeah so? :)
“and any leads on the demand for psychiatrists in Vancouver, B.C.?”
Wow, that comment took me aback as my wife has already applied (in Nov. 2004) – they are waiting for us if and when we want to go.
“I love Nelson, B.C.” And this is where we want to go. See ya there lina!
Colleen a daily lurker @ 196
Four of the Senators on that list will be up for re-election in 2008. I’d say that’s the time to start. It’s too late now for the bastards who are up this year. Maybe after a couple of the fellows are out of office involuntarily the rest will get the point.
I’m too tired to go into the long list of reasons why the “calm down” thread is wrong on almost every point it makes. Not that it isn’t fine for people to calm down if they want.
I’m more of a Never Forget girl myself.
But the legislation absolutley will get war criminals off the hook, without regard to whether parts of it are rectified later by the courts; to get a real case with standing and information may take years – look at your Hamdan and Hamdi timelines.
During those years – what happens to the hundreds of GITMO detainees who had habeas cases pending? Think they want to just “calm he *^)&* downs?” What will happen to the new detainees? The new torture victims as the constraints fall completely by they wayside?
What about the actual standards for what is deemd torture in a country where a bipartisan 65 of 100 Senators was fine with the rape as an interrogation tactic, repeated blows of arthritic old men, kidnapping of children, etc.
When the court interprets, it looks to recognized norms and what is the bar that Congress has set there? You don’t see one? Keep looking lower.
What happens to a military that has Graner in jail for stacking a naked pyramid, but Ashcroft and Thompson raking in big bucks for conspiring in the kidnap and torture of Arar? When the whole culture of the UCMJ has been shredded, diluted and polluted?
Why have we had the cases we have? Because the military has pushed back to preserve itself. Soldiers could say, “no, I won’t” Now Congress is taking that away. It’s not an illegal order to beat a child, to waterboard a terrified innocent asthmatic.
Of course the legislation changes things – it’s idiotic to think it does not. Why did GITMO get the super bad guys transferred to it recently?
BECAUSE THE CIA WOULD NOT TORTURE WITHOUT LEGAL COVER.
Congress just reinstituted the torture. That’s right – we heard Negroponte say it stopped with Hamdan. Congress just pushed the go button. Ever single democrat and republican who voted specifically voted to restart STOPPED torture.
I am too tired, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg on why I’m not all that “calmed down”
Sherrod Brown is not worthy of any, minimal support.
Mary @ 181
Fine. Except that he is better than DeWine, and might very well spell the difference between a Republican Senate and a Democratic Senate.
Let’s be pure later, and WIN THIS ELECTION? I say with all love and respect for you Mary.
Fine, Mary. We get it – you are disgusted with Dems and you’re not going to support any of them in any way.
I respect your opinion. I wish you would respect those who disagree with you.
Even the turncoats count in the tally to get a majority. After that, we can run decent candidates against them in the primaries and pick them off, while holding a majority. And we should definitely focus on the milquetoasts on the other side of the aisle. Collins, Snowe, Chaffee etc should not only have to defend their own record, they should have junyah, frist, mccollum, chambliss, etc tied around their necks when they try that “moderate independent bipartisan” act.
Unlike the Dinos, the pig lite show of independence is kabuki only, they are green lighted to vote against party only when the deal is already done. Our leadership should have gone to the senator with the least to lose that was headed to vote yes on this and leaned on him like hell. Forget any national campaign dollars, forget any decent committee assignments, and count on a good candidate being found for your next primary. They keep their weaklings in line, while we let ours roll over. Enough of that shit. It may take a few cycles to change, but it can be changed.
Adie @ 202
Our rants here in the comments (some of us) about Sherrod Brown won’t be heard beyond this small echo chamber probably. I hope he wins for tactical reasons but not much more, just my opinion.
P J Evans @ 164,
I read your comment too fast and thought I saw “the snipers of the Constitution,” instead of the signers of the Constitution.
Shows you where my head is.
Vote Democrat in November, and you will live to see the Bush administration on trial.
For what? The things that Democrat Harry Reid, Democrat Mary Landrieu, Democrat Sherrod Brown, Democrat Bill Nelson, Democrat Jay Rockefeller etc. all voted to make legal?
You cannot be scum and demand accountability.
When is that “housecleaning” in the Democratic party ever going to take place when you rally to elect and support torture enablers?
Remember once again.
Torture stopped because of Hamdan.
Stopped.
Each of those 65 votes in the Senate and more in the House restarted a stopped torture program. Each scream of each victim, each mind numbing cry to just be allowed to die, are DIRECTLY tied to and attributed to those votes.
Directly – each of them put their finger and the “start torture” button and even worse, they added “and never let the courts hear the screams.”
You get the government you demand. If you are not willing to clean house even in the face of that, you will never do it.
If you can hear those screams in your ears and vote for the people who restarted them, I shudder.
“BECAUSE THE CIA WOULD NOT TORTURE WITHOUT LEGAL COVER.”
I hear ya loud and clear Mary! You actually just reminded me of a thought I had earlier in the day. I never thought I’d trust the CIA more than The Admin., but there it is. 1.) These guys (and gals) and have come out saying that torture doesn’t work anyways, you get bad intel, false intel, etc. 2.) Plus, add in all the stories we’ve seen about them taking out torture insurance or whatever it is, and I’m not so sure any of them are jonesing to get back into secret renditions and torture anyways. And 3.) I think of lot of them hate/distrust Cheney/Bush so may not do their bidding. Myabe I’m clueless, but it’s a hope.
cleter @ 193
Brown is in a very tight race in a state that has seen massive election irregularities from Diebold.
Do we want him or DeWine/Bush?
Brown is trying to get elected in a very imperfect world. Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.
I trust him in his decisions that are necessary to help us take back the Senate.
Would we rather have DeWine? What if that was the deciding vote in the composition of the next Senate?
Cozumel @ 8:31 pm (#209)
I agree with that, but if it’s down to helping him or someone who will actually do the job he swore to do, I’ll take the latter every time, regardless of the tactical situation. For the reasons Mary very adroitly spelled out here, he lacks either the humanity or the ability to comprehend the legal and ethical implications of what he votes on that I feel is required for such an office.
dab from CT @
185
Are you working from the final vote, or from some straw poll? Because under Senate rules, 60 percent can close debate, so in general 41 are needed to sustain a filibuster. That’s the first reason why I concluded we will have to reverse this the hard way—only 32 sitting Democrats, plus two others, voted against.
Pach – how do we claim them as our values and vote for or support people who pissed on them?
dab – I’m not sure how I have “disrespected” someone’s opinion?
I have said that if you won’t draw a line on this, you aren’t going to draw one ever. It’s no different than Bush abortion supporters who feel they “have” to vote for Republicans because the alternative is they won’t win – no matter what they have done.
I never said I would not support any Dems (and I have two LTEs coming out that rip Republicans) I said I would not support anyone who can’t stand up on the torture legislation.
What kind of respect am I supposed to show towards people who restart torture that the courts and victims literally sweated blood to stop?
And how do those guys bring accountability with them? I’ve yet to hear how someone who voted for torture is able to wave the accountability banner.
But whatever.
It’s late.
Marion in Savannah @
198
In military affairs, the name of the game is to address your enemy sequentially, one at a time, rather than concurrently, all at once. We need to address the Republicans and the yellow dogs, but Republicans first, no matter how much that hurts.
egregious @ 213
I think two issues have been conflated here, Egregious. Personally I see no excuse for the man – to see his own election and the electoral good of his party as more important than defeating this unspeakable bill – it’s utterly inexcusable.
Should he be trusted? No. Should he at some point be made to pay? I think so. Could someone vote for him given the alternative? A case can maybe (maybe!) be made.
Cozumel @
199
Right on, Pach. And that said, I think Sherrod Brown gamed us here. FU*K him.
Use him and then lose him. Nearterm, we need him to get control of the committees. But two years from now …
Regarding the choice between the quisling democrats and the republicans, I am reminded of the following, from Stanley Karnow’s encyclopedic “Viet Nam”:
Ho Chi Minh’s advisors were encouraging him to take offers of help, including badly needed arms, ammunition and other supplies, in their efforts to oust the French colonialists. Ho adamantly overruled any consideration of aid from the north. Asked by one of his lieutenants why he would turn down such an offer, Ho replied, “Better to eat French shit for a few years than to eat Chinese shit for a thousand years.”
If we are going to take either house in November, we are going to have to hold our noses and count Brown and Nelson and their ilk on our side. Then we’ll “rearrange their priorities” as we used to say on the farm. Which means we all have to lean on Pelosi and Reid when the time comes. Hard. Murtha’s name might start coming up again, for example.
That “each must follow his own conscience” treacle is fine for a philosphy club, but it ain’t cuttin’ it when you’re up against the Segretti/Atwater/Rove machine.
I’m not going to defend those D’s who voted for torture, HOWEVER, you cannot assume that they would vote the same way if they were in the majority. First off, if the D’s had the majority THAT bill would have never made it out of committee. Second, Rove has fucked with their heads and 5 weeks before the election critters like Brown took the road he thought would get him his Senate seat. I’m not excusing it, but I can at least understand their reasoning.
The D’s need to be taught how to be winners and then you will see the R’s crossing the aisle on crucial votes. Pyschology 101.
Mary @ 204
Great. Then what are you left with, eh? DeWine. Have fun with him or check out the poster who’s advertising jobs in Canada.
When you opt out, you cop out. This nation needs you, but outside of a complete revolution our sole power is the vote. One rung at a time you climb and refine the objective. We can’t get to the second story without passing the first.
Mary @211, good for you. If it’s all right for Howard Dean to work at building the party for the out years it’s all right for the Democratic voter to work at building the party for the out years.
SharonW @ 199,
Courtesy of a request I made of darkblack…
You might appreciate these (but you would be in the minority).
Stress Position 1.
Stress Position 2.
Torture.
Mary @
205
Hi Mary. You know I’ve been with you all the way on this matter and share your disgust at the spinless democrats. But now is a time to think strategically, one enemy at a time, and we get a shot at the most evil ones in about six weeks. Let’s not get distracted. But we’ll never forget.
(Open italics maybe around 219)
Fern @ 217
And just what if he is smart enough to know Ohio and KNEW this would be the killer to his run? How do you change the course of the nation if you can’t even get elected?
Everything can change on Nov. 8th, but not if you don’t have the right number of people in place.
What if you were running in his place and knew you stood no chance of being elected if you voted no? Would you concede the election and walk away with your principles intact yet unable to ever enforce your principles, let alone have to watch as your opponent does yet worse to our Constitution?
Or do you swallow hard and vote yes on the hope that you will be able to get to the table and change the course of that which you voted for and the worse things to come?
It’s IS a Sophie’s choice, no? Life’s a bitch. Sometimes we’re presented with all bad options.
There’s a double dose of anti-italics.
“Never give in–never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” (Sir Winston Churchill)
L.G. Fucktard @ 224
Actually, I deeply appreciate them. There are some nasty, nasty evangelical, Bush is god-appointed types I’ve been dealing with on another board. Thanks.
TRex’s new thread is up. By an odd coincidence, it’s about torture.
Wigwam – you are getting rid of Brown in two years. He’s running for a six year term as Senator.
********
Great. Then what are you left with, eh? DeWine. Have fun with him
Bullfuckingshit to you Sharon. Have fun with Dewine? Not too likely.
If you refuse to make any part of your government take responsiblity, you get what you deserve. That scream you hear is the one you buy with your willingness to betray your counry and its principles.
You go right ahead and whisper in Brown’s ear that there are no consequences to restarting torture. Sleep with a picture of the 14 yo in Haditha under you pillow and tell her – no consequences ever honey, after all – we might not WIN.
or check out the poster who’s advertising jobs in Canada.W
You’re just so clever – why try to keep up with that?
Do Not Go Gently Into That Good Night
Call or fax your Senators
I heart Mary.
Valley Girl @ 234
Me too.
So, are we and CMike the lynch mob?
Thanks Montag @ 182 – I think you said it all.
I don’t know what to do. Pachacutec @ 167 – I think you’re on to something quite profound there, but I don’t know how to act on it.
We are only working within the two-party system because the media and the political establishment in D.C. have us trapped inside its strait jacket. Most of us, I think, desperately want out. The democratic world is a rainbow, but the establishment parties and their media outlets want to keep pretending it’s a choice between black and white and thus keep forcing us to pick one or the other [David Sirota does a good job illuminating this situation]. At some point we have to shatter that myth for good at the federal level. When? And How? Perhaps this is ‘when’? It feels like it to me, but I don’t see how to do it – I just know it absolutely must be done, and sometime soon.
No they won’t. A 2007 Congress, even the most optimistic projection of one, wouldn’t have enough votes to override a Presidential veto. And that’s even assuming that the current Democratic bedwetters would switch their votes around in the first place and no longer fear being portrayed as “soft-on-terror” by Repubs.
This bill is a travesty, and an atrocity. The support given to it by Democrats is just as much of one. Even if they manage to win in November, it’ll still feel like they’ve lost. They’ve basically assisted in the destruction of the country just to cover their asses.
Valley Girl @ 234
Ditto
I’ve been trying to justify it, and I can’t. The thought that someone I sent money to voted in favor of torture makes me sick to my stomach. I’m going to ask for my small donation to Sherwood Brown back.
egregious @ 213
I’m not saying I would vote for DeWine if I lived in Ohio, or that I would give money or lift a finger to help DeWine in any way. I’m just saying Sherrod Brown came onto FDL and presented himself to us as a certain kind of politician, and I think today he betrayed our trust. So get out the vote, Ohio, and elect Brown, and count his vote toward a majority. But I think we at FDL should find a way to communicate our displeasure to Brown, and I want my money back so I can give it to a candidate with a conscience.
Mary @
232
I agree we’ve got to make them pay. But I recommend that we do that at the time that best suits our cause.
Now is the time to go after Bush and Company, the bigger fish. If we can get a majority (even one including Satan himself) we get subpoena power and with it the ability to raise some real hell. Lacking that we are right where we are now.
LindaR @
239
oops I mean sherrod!
prostratedragon @ 215
The Dems voted within their caucus whether or not to fillibuster. I gather it was all or nothing. And two Dems voted against a fillibuster.
Obviously when it came to the actual vote more than 2 Dems voted for the bill.
Mary – peace. The last thing I want to do is get into a disagreement with a fellow firepup. I think we are all so emotional – and we hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives on these issues. I think it’s important that we all have our say and then think of the best way to fix this mess. If we don’t agree with each other – I think we have to agree to disagree.
We all want the same thing in the end. We all want this six year nightmare to end and begin to repair the great damage that has been done.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Hi Jane,
America hits new lows again.
1) King George gets expanded powers to keep us safe.
2) Electronic BALLOT machines — we don’t need no stinking paper trail.
3) The HP WAY !!! includes getting phone records without approval or warrants.
4) The HP WAY !!! includes $3,700,000.00 payoff for lead counsel to resign. Maybe our next Attorney General ???
5) Chicken Hawks are tough on terror ?
This wouldn’t be possible without public education (controlled by the government) and high school football.
I’ve always thought that Bush was a serial killer by proxy. The signs were likely all there. We know about the animal torture; the only reason we haven’t heard about the others is that the dolt probably tried to set fire to his bed after he wet it.
Somehow I get the feeling that he’s now getting his jollies by watching videos of the torture taking place in Gitmo and elsewhere. It’s a scary thought, but one I can’t seem to shake.
I hope that Christy is going to get in touch with her senator, Mr. Rockefeller, and give him hell over this vote. His vote and the two from NJ are completely baffling.
Mary and others.
Okay. I’ve slept on it. I wake up feeling as I did yesterday. JUST as angry as Mary, but siding with Christy on tactics to GET DONE WHAT WE MUST DO – elect progressives to unleash our government from the current lawless republican stranglehold which holds the nation captive and makes a sham out of our democracy.
I don’t understand Sherrod Brown’s vote yesterday. I, as [hopefully] his future constituent, will write and tell him to come forward ASAP to justify his action.
As I said yesterday, I do not know Sherrod Brown personally, and have never even met him. But I HAVE watched his career and performance closely over years’ time, and have been impressed that he is a man who means what he says, and works hard, consistently, and with considerable expertise to support progressive causes.
I have not known him to bow down and go along with bad legislation in the past. But yesterday’s bill was so heinous in its potential consequences, there is no satisfactory explanation I can think of. So I will give him a chance to explain himself.
If he chooses to post some response at FDL, I’m going hope everyone who wishes to will let him know of their disappointment and, yes, shock. But I sure hope Mary (and those who share her feelings) will put the serrated knives back in the drawer and instead use her celebrated eloquence to express herself.
Last night’s comments got ugly and abusive. The reason justifies the anger. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that excessive abuse stifles both discussion AND effective action.
I SHARE the anger. I do NOT accept compromise any more than Mary does. [Please note, Mary. I am NOT telling you to calm down.]
My moment of ‘hitting the fan’ was when DeLay’s henchmen led that white-collar mob in to disrupt the Miami-Dade vote recount. Where was Mary THEN?! Where was the law? That may not have been torture in its pure form, but it sure as %&## LED to it, straight as an arrow.
Justice has to my knowledge NEVER been a part of this administration’s formula. They’ve been utterly lawless from the beginning, and they remain so.
PLEASE, lets work TOGETHER to gain a Dem. majority in November. Then onward to put the pieces back together in this poor injured democracy.
And Mary, please don’t run with those knives. We treasure you and learn mightily from your wisdom and eloquence.
Vote for Democrats anyway. For all their many faults, they’re still better than the Republicans.
But don’t trust them. They’re not your friends and are not on your side. Use them the way they use you – to get what you want. There will be plenty of time to kick them to the curb after you’ve gotten what you want from them.
Hi Realist,
You are right about the democrates, vote for them to slow down the Neo guys, but never trust them.
Clinton signed NAFTA into law, as well as China most favored trade status, as well as cutting corporate reserves for pensions in half, lets don’t forget the missile technology to China, and the do not investigate SEC people giving us Enron & Worldcom, etc, etc.
Bend over and lift your shirts, detainees.