Fitz

First?

“We are pushing you off our side of the field, across the fifty yard line and headed toward the goal. And we are about to score. You think we can’t do this? THINK AGAIN, because we have DAMN WELL HAD ENOUGH.”

Well said Christy!

It is something that I’ve been saying myself over the last 24 hours.

can I kick it?

THANK YOU! Your first paragraph pretty much summed up the anger I’m feeling.

It’s MY country, and they’re taking it away from me. Do I want to live here if we condone torture? No.

Don’t those idiots in congress know that what they’re doing is the work of cowards? We’ve fought wars before, but never have we declared that our constitution means nothing.

I am horrified by Graham, Warner, and McCain. It’s the old repub. ploy…stand up for the right thing and get the news coverage, then cave and do what Bushco wants.

Christy, when I get low, you fire up my fighting spirit. God Bless You!

amen, ma’am. ye jes sed it as well as i have ever red it. we will not back down, we are not afraid, we are not gonna fergit. not fer nuthin. we need oversite n since the publicans has dun sold out, we will brang it to ye. and the peeple *will* back us up.

Go Christy! Totally, totally agree – let’s take our country back and go kick ass!

Well done, Christy!
It seems they just keep pushing and pushing to see how far they can actually go.

I really hope that those who vote decide the election and hand these guys their asses.

I am very worried in light of everything they pull that it will be whoever counts the votes who decides.

I can’t believe what has happened.

If they hate us for our freedoms, will they love us if we have all our freedoms removed?

You think we won’t work as hard as we need to, that we’ll let up because you pull some rotten, skeezeball, forced maneuver? Thank again.

You think principle can’t win out against greed? Thank again.

Lol,Christy’s pissed,her accent is showing. :)

The MA group just had our own conference call/pep talk. We’re going to do more spotlighting, more calling, more pushing to close Dau’s triangle. If we don’t who will?

Fighting spirit? You bet!

YeeHaw! We’re with you all the way on this. Lately, I’ve been in a state of shock over this torture bill. I agree with Cafferty…I don’t recognize my own country anymore.Doesn’t mean I don’t want a fight…just feeling a bit disheartened. I STILL don’t understand the Democrats on this one. Just like I never have understood why in 2000, NOT ONE Senator would support the CBC about the election. I have faith that as progressives, we can do something, and I will NEVER give up!!!

EPU’d

Can someone explain why a filibuster seems to be out of the question. It would not have to hold for long? I mean, if these are not “extraordinary circumstances” what would be?

Kennedy up with his amendment.

Here’s how I see it:

Step 1) Take back the House and/or Senate
Step 2) Stop and reverse as much damage as possible in the next two years
Step 3) Primary every Democrat who knuckled under for torture
Step 4) 2008 Elections

You are sounding like one pissed off lady, Christy! Seems like you pounded out the inner angst of the last few days of poster anger, and cooked all the tid bits up into one boiling hot and tasty stew. Another brilliant post. :)

And remember, kids – If You Don’t Vote – You Can’t Complain!

well said christy.

thanks for reminding us how we got to this juncture in the first place.

karl will pull out all the stops between now and Nov. 7.

I so want a headline on Nov. 8 that says “Bush Loses Congress.”

And if I have to put up with lilly livered Dem leadership for the next six weeks to get it, I will do it. I’d stand on my head in the corner and say 500 hail marys if I thought it would help.

Irony.

See SusanG’s story on Kos

On a day when the U.S. Senate is busy busy busy legalizing torture and suspending habeas corpus, this story out of Connecticut strikes a particularly dissonant note:

Mural deemed too violent for school

GREENWICH, Conn. –A restored Revolutionary War mural painted in the 1930s will not be returned to an elementary school because it is too violent for children, a neighborhood group decided.

“Cafferty: President Bush is trying to pardon himself. “

Yes, I pointed it out on Sunday on this blog.

Please read Elizabeth Holtzman’s column in the Sunday Chicago-Times, “Bush Seeks Retroactive Immunity for Violating War Crimes Act.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/o…..3B.article

Here’s my question: given the Bush Administration’s penchant for loyalty, how long will it take before Republicans are on the receiving end of this legislation?

Step 1) Take back the House and/or Senate
Step 2) Stop and reverse as much damage as possible in the next two years
Step 3) Primary every Democrat who knuckled under for torture
Step 4) 2008 Elections

I’d add 1a) Remove Reid as Democratic Leader in the Senate. Replace with someone with a real set of balls.

BRAVA, CHRISTY!!!

You go, girl!!!! Up to now these testerone-drunken members of the Senate glad-handing each other as they tank our Constitution have not had to deal with US.

Hell, Lieberman’s the only one who’s really come close to facing our full wrath. Just wait. The day is coming, and they will rue it.

I cannot wait to see the presser with the first batch of subpoenas.

Teddy is ON FIRE!

OT:

Bush tells Woodward there are no exit conditions for Iraq:

President Bush is absolutely certain that he has the U.S. and Iraq on the right course, says Woodward. So certain is the president on this matter, Woodward says, that when Mr. Bush had key Republicans to the White House to discuss Iraq, he told them, “I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me.”

via atrios

The Lion is roaring… waiting for your filibuster sir!

Emma Anne @
15

Here’s how I see it:

Step 1) Take back the House and/or Senate
Step 2) Stop and reverse as much damage as possible in the next two years
Step 3) Primary every Democrat who knuckled under for torture
Step 4) 2008 Elections

Yes. In precisely that order.

Meanwhile, Chris Bowers has a reality check :

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/9/27/153635/585

Emma Anne @ 15

Here’s how I see it:
Step 1) Take back the House and/or Senate

I am very skeptical that this will happen. I think the fix is in. Stakes are too high for the Bushzies. It’ll look hotly contested and down-to-the-wire. Basic pool shark M.O.

I hope I’m wrong.
_

Yes, of course. Everything you said. And THANK YOU and Jane for using your real names. I think everyone should stop hiding behind handles. It cheapens the political impact, turns serious activism into a computer game.

If we can’t say who we are, if we can’t share authentic contact information, then we’re already in a dictatorship.

John H. Farr

EPU’d

Every day these patriotic senators recite the pledge of allegiance “… and to the consitution for which it stands” – makes me want to puke!

I just wrote to Boxer on Huffpost that I don’t understand why the dems aren’t SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER. Why are they all not lighting themselves on fire and demanding that the american people take to the streets in protest? Why are they not shutting down congress? Why are they allowing this administration, WHO HAS BEEN WRONG ABOUT EVERY SINGLE THING, to rewrite OUR CONSTITUTION????? I feel like I’m going crazy.

Thank god for fdl.

RevDeb @ 19

Irony.

See SusanG’s story on Kos

On a day when the U.S. Senate is busy busy busy legalizing torture and suspending habeas corpus, this story out of Connecticut strikes a particularly dissonant note:

Mural deemed too violent for school

GREENWICH, Conn. –A restored Revolutionary War mural painted in the 1930s will not be returned to an elementary school because it is too violent for children, a neighborhood group decided.

Insanity seems to be the norm these days.

Kennedy is about to bust a vein. He is the one finally making the point of the details of torture. Thank you, sir.

Fellow Nevadans.
_

Miz Hardin Smith, I swear, you are EN FUEGO today.

This is classic Karl Rove theater. They’ll pass the bill by a narrow margin (bonus points if they can get the Shooter to break a tie), hold an elaborate signing ceremony, and then tar all the Democrats (even the ones who voted for the damn thing) as being week on terror. What, exactly, do the Democrats lose by filibustering? Newsflash, Dems: They’re going to smear you no matter what you do. You might as well do the honorable thing and block this monstrosity.

Kennedy is on fire!

To paraphrase, from what I caught:

“Other countries will look at us and say, This is a war crime, and you will be held accountable!”

Yeah.

Karl Rove: Laughing his way to a domestic constitutional dictatorship.

EPU’ed from last thread

Habeas is as fundamental to our judicial system as the prohibition of slavery is to our rights. No one would look on slavery as a red state, blue state issue. No one should look on habeas that way either. Either we accept habeas as fundamental or we don’t. There is no “kind of” fundamental just as there is no “kind of” pregnant.

If habeas is to be considered just another political issue susceptible to all the usual political calculations, then it is not fundamental to our judicial system. It is just extremely difficult for me to see how you can have any kind of judicial system worth having without it.

That is an important, even critical admission. There were many before the Civil War who considered slavery bad but they did not seek to end it but limit it. Were they right? Were they being practical, realistic? Was the maintenance of a country that was half slave and half free worth it?

Is habeas something you compromise on? Is torture? If we do not draw lines, then there are no lines. Where are yours?

lina @ 18

I so want a headline on Nov. 8 that says “Bush Loses Congress.”

YEAH!

Well said, lina.

Sen. Kennedy just made the perfect presentation. This issue should be put before the American people by recounting, in detail, the charges against and punishments meted out to defendents in previous war crime trials. It simplifies the matter.

Yesterday’s vote on this in the house. See if you can find the 34 deserters:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll491.xml

Amen Christy!! Thanks for all you do.

BobbyG — do more than hope.

100Actions.com — take action.

Raw Story says the the Habeas bill was defeated in the Senate – They have this listed as a breaking story.

Hugh @ 38

Habeas is as fundamental to our judicial system as the prohibition of slavery is to our rights. No one would look on slavery as a red state, blue state issue.

I dunno, the way the GOP is going… don’t give them any ideas. Is there any anachronistic injustice they really don’t yearn to turn back the clock on?

Christy – how is the fact that the Dems are triangulating on this Karl Rove’s fault?

I just don’t buy that. If they do get any kind of majority, will they do anything constructive? Where would I look to see evidence of that? They won’t go after the torture and mess in GITMO – gotta look “good on security” for the 2008 election.

They won’t investigate the abuses they authorized – got embarassment much? How does that make them look for 2008- that they all stood up and voted for torture and war crimes? How do you investigate someone you’ve given a bye on war crimes?

Rove is not the problem with the Dems. They are their own problem and I’m done with excuses for them. This could very easily have been their issue and instead, as per Leahy’s quotes in the Salon article, they were flat out cowards and appeasers.

“In my own caucus, people say, ‘We can’t oppose this, look what happened to Max Cleland.’” … Leahy recounted that his weak-kneed Democratic colleagues also argue, “‘We have to go along with it because we’ll never be able to explain it back home.’” That prompted the Vermont senator to add, “Maybe one way to explain it is to say, ‘I stood up for you and your rights.’”

How many times do we have a “torture, I was for it before I was against it” moments and just pat them on the back and go on? Isn’t that the same thing we get angry about when they constantly do it with the admin and Repubs, but here we are ready to make the same deals with the devil and engage in the same appeasement?

I don’t believe we’ll ever get politicians with more spine than we are willing to show and that means being willing to fight, even if you lose.

It’s not some machiavellian Rove plot that they cannot take the simple issue of torturing innocent people and holding them forever and making a stand. If the shoe was on the other foot, they would be creamed under an avalanche from the right.

What are they showing that makes them worth supporting? And each of these positions that they cave on – makes them less and less able to ever be able to demand accountability. They would be investigating their own collaberation on war crimes.

Accountability has an even hand. They have to be accountable for their choices before you can hand over the Scepter of Subpeona to them to engage in forcing accountability on someone else. ROve is responsible for what he does – they are responsible for what they have not done.

IMO

If the NIE has informed us that we are losing the “GWOT” (Iraq & Afghanistan are being lost as we speak, imho) and we have been doing all kinds of horrible things already, how will legislating our rights away and legalizing torture help us win?

This. makes. no. sense. at. all.

It’s immoral.

It’s the War Crimes Act they’re afraid of. With Red Cross access to the detainees and a report no doubt going to be issued, they want to make sure they cannot be prosecuted.

You know, for people who claim to have such an all-encompassing vision for the world, their actions reveal them to be in dire need of corrective lenses, as their world view is remarkably short-sighted and narrow. On top of that, their execution is egregiously incompetent.

I take it that the amendments that have so far been voted on only need a simple majority to pass (or fail), but I assume the bill to which the bastardized McCain amendment will be attached could be filibustered.

I sure hope someone steps up and at least tries.

Wow – first time EPU’ed.

Kennedy: THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING AMERICANS!

No more torture! No more attacks on habeas corpus! No more of this treasonous tyrrany! No more electoral, free rides for those who support them!

mjh @ 44

Raw Story says the the Habeas bill was defeated in the Senate – They have this listed as a breaking story.

They are referring to the Spector amendment.

What Tristero said at Digby’s Hullabaloo….

We are dealing with a rogue Presidency, and the trappings of power.

Congress is in the unenviable position of either going along with this insanity, or creating a crisis based on appearance. If congress goes along with the madness, it looks legitimately involved and part of the government. If not, then Bush fully intends to disregard the legislation anyway revealing to the world that we have a rogue President, with all the ramifications that implies.

For Congress it looks like a lose/lose, but there is a chance for change after November. but, it will take some intrepid bastards to change the course, will we get them? It’s anyone’s guess.

Our country is in trouble…..with itself.

A touch of bitter irony, the lead story on the U.S. Senate website: “We the People, Celebrating the Constitution…”. By raping it, apparently.

Thanks for the FDL righteous anger. Come November, let’s take these motherfuckers down.

Senator Clinton up

Mary — the fact that this subject has come up at all is the GOP’s fault. The Dems did not propose this bill nor did they create the problems that led to its perceived need due to CYA. The trangulation is a bad strategy — I believe both Jane and I have said so repeatedly — but the ultimate fault on this lies in Rove and Bush’s lap. They are pushing this forward. The Dems are ineffectively pushing back on some levels, but the battle is not yet over, so we have NO idea what will ultimately happen today.

But I’m not willing to give Rove or the Republicans a pass just because you or anyone else is disappointed in Democratic tactics (or lack thereof). The GOP has to lose in November, and then we can clean house on the Dem side thereafter. But we cannot do both right now, not this close to November, it simply is not possible. And I’m asking you to choose to stand up for your nation’s best interests above your own personal disgust at individual lack of action, because that is, in all honesty, the best we can do right now.

Wish I could snap my fingers and make this all better, but this is the best that I can do. I’m trying to work with what I have today — and that’s the best that I can do. We can push forward, or we can sit back, wring our hands, and hand Karl Rove another victory. I’ll be goddamned if that is an option for me.

Hillary up.

Mary @ 45

Christy – how is the fact that the Dems are triangulating on this Karl Rove’s fault?

I just don’t buy that. If they do get any kind of majority, will they do anything constructive? Where would I look to see evidence of that? They won’t go after the torture and mess in GITMO – gotta look “good on security” for the 2008 election.

They won’t investigate the abuses they authorized – got embarassment much? How does that make them look for 2008- that they all stood up and voted for torture and war crimes? How do you investigate someone you’ve given a bye on war crimes?

Rove is not the problem with the Dems. They are their own problem and I’m done with excuses for them. This could very easily have been their issue and instead, as per Leahy’s quotes in the Salon article, they were flat out cowards and appeasers.

“In my own caucus, people say, ‘We can’t oppose this, look what happened to Max Cleland.’” … Leahy recounted that his weak-kneed Democratic colleagues also argue, “‘We have to go along with it because we’ll never be able to explain it back home.’” That prompted the Vermont senator to add, “Maybe one way to explain it is to say, ‘I stood up for you and your rights.’”

How many times do we have a “torture, I was for it before I was against it” moments and just pat them on the back and go on? Isn’t that the same thing we get angry about when they constantly do it with the admin and Repubs, but here we are ready to make the same deals with the devil and engage in the same appeasement?

I don’t believe we’ll ever get politicians with more spine than we are willing to show and that means being willing to fight, even if you lose.

It’s not some machiavellian Rove plot that they cannot take the simple issue of torturing innocent people and holding them forever and making a stand. If the shoe was on the other foot, they would be creamed under an avalanche from the right.

What are they showing that makes them worth supporting? And each of these positions that they cave on – makes them less and less able to ever be able to demand accountability. They would be investigating their own collaberation on war crimes.

Accountability has an even hand. They have to be accountable for their choices before you can hand over the Scepter of Subpeona to them to engage in forcing accountability on someone else. ROve is responsible for what he does – they are responsible for what they have not done.

IMO

so, are you advocating armed rebellion?

Clinton:

We must hold on to our values and set an example of pride, not shame. We should follow the duty given us by the Supreme Court …

jayackroyd @ 24

OT:

Bush tells Woodward there are no exit conditions for Iraq:

President Bush is absolutely certain that he has the U.S. and Iraq on the right course, says Woodward. So certain is the president on this matter, Woodward says, that when Mr. Bush had key Republicans to the White House to discuss Iraq, he told them, “I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me.”

via atrios

Guess he can’t even get above 50% in his own household…have even the twins turned on him?
Well, then, we are Miz Beazleys who will whup your sorry *ss…never surrender, never give up, never stop to take back our democracy from these craven tyrants. Clench-jawed rotties who won’t let go of our freedoms lightly.

RevDeb #40 from my comment last night

27-Sep-2006
H R 6166 Military Commissions Act aka The Torture and Kangaroo Courts Act
Passed 253-168 with 12 Not Voting

Democrats who voted for: 34
Andrews________Herseth
Barrow_________ Higgins
Bean ___________Holden
Bishop (GA) _____Marshall
Boren___________Matheson
Boswell_________ McIntyre
Boyd____________Melancon
Brown (OH) ______Michaud
Chandler_________ Moore (KS)
Cramer___________Peterson (MN)
Cuellar___________Pomeroy
Davis (AL) _______Ross
Davis (TN) _______Salazar
Edwards_________Scott (GA)
Etheridge________Spratt
Ford____________Tanner
Gordon_________ Taylor (MS)

Republicans who voted against: 7
Bartlett (MD)
Gilchrest
Jones (NC)
LaTourette
Leach
Moran (KS)
Paul

Not Voting: 12
Castle____________ Lewis (GA)
Cleaver___________Meehan
Davis (FL) ________Millender-McDonald
Davis, Tom________Ney
Jackson-Lee (TX) __Radanovich
Keller____________Strickland

Thanks Richmond for the clarification. That’s why I love FDL!

Christy: Minor point of contention in your excellent post re. Bush and Rove “Damn Straight:” I am not sure that either of them is! |-]

And, btw, if you can’t bring yourself to support the Democratic party, find yourself a Democratic candidate — for the House, for the Senate, for a state race, that holds your values and holds positions that you find palatable. Man the phones, send out mailers, walk your precincts — whatever it takes to get them elected.

But do something tangible — it is going to take every single one of us working flat out between now and November to win this election. And it’s going to take us getting out from behind our computers and doing the tough, every day work. But it can be done — so do the work that you think needs doing for the people for whom you feel comfortable working — but DO THE WORK. This is too important to leave to someone else.

Hillary forcefully citing George W.

Washington, that is.
_

And Congress ain’t worth spit.

Nice piece of legislation. You may all go home now. You are no longer needed.

Welp, apparently the Democrats have agreed to “forgo a filisbuster in exchange for” something something. That from the NYT.

Woo. So proud today. Go democrats.

Chris Bowers was saying yesterday that we cannot paint all Democrats for the actions of a few… so, how many people does it take to start a filibuster?

Anyhow, this has been a fun 217 year experiment in Rule of Law.

Clinton: Quoting Gen George Washington: “Treat prisoners with humanity”

Abusing prisoners is a prime cause of radicalization. No reason to be rushing to judgment … it will cost our men and women in uniform …

We will once again be held up to the world as failing our own high standards … the war on terrorism is lost already [if we give in to torture] …

I’ll be damned… Hillary is kicking some serious ass. Paraphrasing:

“George Washington commanded that captured foreign mercaneries be treated such that they would have no cause to complain of their treatment.

“Abuse of innocent detainees is one of the prime drivers of jihad.

“Once again we will be in the supreme court, and once again we will be held up before the world as failing to live up to our own standards.

“If Cheney is right and we have to enact this bill to carry out the war, then the war is lost already.”

It’s been a long time, but I’m proud of Hillary right now.

Rayne @ 9:57 (prior thread)

Stephen Parrish — so…what’s your take on Woodie’s newest waste of paper?

Does he do a mea culpa and acknowledge he was a useful tool in those coverups?

Does he pants WaPo but good, by stealing their thunder?

Does he make a bunch of empty claims or those that have been covered in more thorough detail by emptywheel, Jeralyn, Christy, Jane, et al?

Until I read more about Bob Woodward’s new book, I can’t answer your questions. What I found on ThinkProgress about the book is the first commentary I’ve seen about it since I found out earlier this month that it would be published sometime this fall.

Chad at 66 — And you’ve decided to take the word of the paper of Judy Miller and their interpretation of something that may or may not happen — based on anonymous sources — because….what, exactly? Jeebus, can’t everyone just watch the Senate and see what happens along with the rest of us.

jayackroyd @
13

EPU’d

Can someone explain why a filibuster seems to be out of the question. It would not have to hold for long? I mean, if these are not “extraordinary circumstances” what would be?

Same question, and I’m with Hugh as well. Endangering our troops is a valid enough reason to filibuster this, but what more extraordinary circumstance is there than breaking the moral spine of our system of justice? Ditto to everything that Glenn Greenwald has said, too…

I’ve tried all week to reach Sen. Clinton and gotten busy signals; spoke with staffers at the Schumer and Byrd offices. Thanks for the rallying cry…

Hugh – In response to your EPU’d post, I had an EPU’d comment, which was:

Habeus Corpus was considered THE fundamental personal right – it is the only personal right that is in the Constition itself. Our other Consititional rights come in the Bill of Rights and later amendments – like the 13th which outlaws slavery which was 1865 or so.

Where’s Lamont? Has the ball been dropped?

“Poll shows three-term incumbent with 10-point lead over Democrat”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15042299/

In foreign policy, Lieberman is just as foul as Rove and Bush.

thanks to those of you who are live blogging this

Who WILL have the guts to FILIBUSTER ?

Christy Hardin Smith @ 69

Chad at 66 — And you’ve decided to take the word of the paper of Judy Miller and their interpretation of something that may or may not happen — based on anonymous sources — because….what, exactly? Jeebus, can’t everyone just watch the Senate and see what happens along with the rest of us.

I’m with Christy. I don’t think the Repubs have much to offer.

I’m home sick (as is my daughter) and watching cspan is causing me to break out in an even worse sweat. Unbeleivable. How can any American listen to this (and I realize few are) and not see that we are shredding our Constitution, our values, our history, and protections for our own troops? Levin, Kerry, Kennedy, and Clinton have all spoke forcefully and persuasively. Is it too much to ask for one Dem (who isn’t running for reelection if need be) to step and filibuster this awful piece of crap? Back to the phones…

Richmond @ 62

Christy: Minor point of contention in your excellent post re. Bush and Rove “Damn Straight:” I am not sure that either of them is! |-]

Oh, surely, they are damned.

Hey, could one Republican and one Democrat of conscience together put a hold on this whole diabolical travesty?

Rayne – have you seen this? http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0928.html

Christy Hardin Smith @ 70

Chad at 66 — And you’ve decided to take the word of the paper of Judy Miller and their interpretation of something that may or may not happen — based on anonymous sources — because….what, exactly? Jeebus, can’t everyone just watch the Senate and see what happens along with the rest of us.

C’mon… It’s so much more fun to speculate and get worked up into a tizzy fit!

:-)

Has Hillary changed her stance on getting the troops out of the middle of the Iraq civil war which she helped Bush, Cheney and the rest start? Is so, I’ve missed it. Perhaps I have.

Evil Parallel Universe @ 71

Hugh – In response to your EPU’d post, I had an EPU’d comment, which was:

Habeus Corpus was considered THE fundamental personal right – it is the only personal right that is in the Constition itself. Our other Consititional rights come in the Bill of Rights and later amendments – like the 13th which outlaws slavery which was 1865 or so.

Was your use of the past tense intentional?

I worry that the beasts at bay are getting desperate. I worry that the October suprise will find our Military embroiled in an Iranian conflict. I worry for my children and my country. Tell me, please, my worries are unfounded. Tell me, Christie, that your righteous indignation will be a pebble in the path of their insidious need for power. I worry, dear, I worry mightily!

John

i agree with mary… having a spine means risking loss to stand up for your core beliefs. it means saying “fuck it, i don’t care what they say about me.” today is the day. i won’t forgive those who don’t take a stand and that means filibuster.

history will not forgive these selfish cowards. who will take a stand?

Hugh – In the originally EPU’d comment I wrote “…is (I won’t use was)….”

It still is – although Chimpco seems to believe it “was.”

Christy, Byrd coming up

Do you think you’ll see any of this on the major networks tonight, with clarity, thorough explanation, and decent clips from both sides?

I don’t have cable. So I check in to the two networks I get…NBC and CBS. I saw NONE of the debate from yesterday on either one…though Lindsey Lying Graham got a few seconds from Katie.

Did Katie cover jack shit about the generals, Baptiste, Eaton et all appearing and testifying to the clusterf*** that is Rumsfeld and the DOD? Nuh. Uh.

We have lost the fourth estate. I don’t know how it happened. But Bribri and Katie are like state controlled TeeVee.

And they are who the American public are watching…

I don’t want a filibuster. I want this debate to end and for these people to go back to their districts/states to explain the Iraq Fucking War to their constituents.

If this bill becomes law it will be struck down by the Supreme Court.

I put my faith in the Constitution, not in elected representatives. Some of them are valiant, some of them are fools. The only thing we’ve got is the Constitution. This bill will not take down the Constitution.

If Karl Rove retains power in the Congress for two more years, there will be more awful legislation, and worse, there will be another Supreme Court appointment.

Will newly elected Dems have the balls to keep America from going down the sewer? I have no idea. But it’s the only hope at this point.

Christy #63 — got your back on that.

What many of you who are not doing local work are missing is the rage and anger of our fellow Americans who feel isolated and alone with their frustration.

I wanted to cry last night, several times, when folks volunteered how passionately they felt about the current situation; some of them feel disenfranchised and disconnected, which is exactly what the opposition hopes for this November. The majority of the people I spoke with don’t have regular internet access, but they knew how very bad things were; they were more isolated for the lack of seeing how broadly dispersed and how deep the passion they feel is shared across this country. Showing up on their doorsteps, letting them vent, reminding them how very important it is for them to be there on Election Day — this makes the difference in every single precinct.

Today is a very ugly, nasty battle, but the war is for the heart and soul of this country, a war that cannot be won without Republican control of Congress being undone.

This is a movement we are working on, even as desperate and painful as the current battle may be. Our opponents felt the same way in the depths of the 1960’s, repeatedly regrouped and sustained their attacks, until they became the behemoth we’ve beat our heads against for the last 5-10 years. WE CAN DO THE SAME THING — AND WE CAN DO IT SMARTER.

Remember that there are conservatives who hope and pray that we will fix this mess; they will not obstruct us (up to a point) if we can win this fall. But we must do it all and well — we must attack in Congress, attack in the media, attach them in the streets of our own neighborhoods by regrouping our own through outreach and GOTV.

You can make a difference, in spite of the ugliness we see playing out in the Senate. You can make positive change; you have the power to take your country back.

100Actions.com

Shorter Democrats: As the Republicans stand up for torture, we will stand down, although we may whimper a little while doing so.

TPM Muckraker has the vote tally.

Rs for amendment: Sununu, Specter, Chafee and Smith (OR).

Ds against amendment: Nelson (NE)

Not voting: Snowe.

We need to get in touch with Olympia again.

Raw Story headline:

Keith Olbermann traces Bush’s pre-9/11 actions: Developing…

For the record, CNN and MSNBC are covering a Florida manhunt in progress. Hey “news” babes… there’s a runaway terrier in our neighborhood…better send out the full news crew.

Iraq?
Congress ratifying torture?
Hmmmm, not so much.

Byrd is up.

Love him or hate him, he IS the institution. Not that the repugs give a sh*t about the institution.

Christy Hardin Smith @
70

Chad at 66 — And you’ve decided to take the word of the paper of Judy Miller and their interpretation of something that may or may not happen — based on anonymous sources — because….what, exactly? Jeebus, can’t everyone just watch the Senate and see what happens along with the rest of us.

Christy, you have to admit that there hasn’t been much to exactly give a guy hope for… what seems like forever.

But trust me, if the Democrats filibuster this, I will so gladly eat my words. So gladly. God. I’m sorry, but knowing that the only thing standing between the US Constitution and mad King George is the current Democratic party doesn’t fill me with anything close to confidence.

Byrd offers ammendment to put a 5 yr sunset on all Military Commission Act.

“we have seen the mistakes that can come when congress rushes…w/o adequate debate…as a means of political showboating…and the results can be disaterous…

Stephen Parrish #69 — was only asking for a foresight or guesstimate on Woodie’s schtick; I think he’ll skip the mea culpa and plead ignorance.

Even odds he’s used info from online to flesh whatever he’s said.

No, didn’t see the Kissinger bit. I don’t like to wish anyone ill – but Kissinger could use a little downtime away from DC, you know? Ugh. Maybe Kissinger’s getting lessons on how to be more than Nixonian.

Oklahoma kiddo, Its always about Hillary with you, She gave a good speech. I detest LIZZY Dole but she doesn’t get to me like that. JMO

I’m not trying to make you angry but I disagree. Levin was a co-sponsor of the original effort to strip habeas and Democratic leadership has known about issues like Arar for over a year and about the Seeton Hall reports and GITMO disasters for longer and have never put together a position or strategy. They have no wanted to talk about torture and IMO that does create the problem that leads to the need. If no soldier or CIA agent can find a leader taking a stand against this – then how do they stand alone?

I agree that Rove and Bush are responsible for what they’ve done, which is push for legislation to get them off the hook. But every politician in Congress has to be responsible for how they respond to that legislation. Electing cowards doesn’t stengthen this country.

You’re right that we don’t know how it will turn out and I’m still making contacts and asking others to do the same. If they make a stand, then I have something to look to – if they don’t, I don’t.

Would you be unwilling to vote against them if they were voting to legalize a 30 day free pass for child rape for soldiers returning from Iraq? What if they only got that free pass in your state? In your hometown?

When is it ok to say “this is so bad you do not deserve to serve?”

For me, this is it. I undestand if not for you or others, but do you really think that any house will be cleaned with enablers in office? Or that they won’t already be re-triangulating for 2008? Then we will “have to have” a Democratic President, so well, that house cleaning will have to wait. Then if they lose it will be – we have to be more moderate to win in 2012 etc.

It’s not in my nation’s best interests to vote for anyone or turn out the vote for any party that cannot stand against torture. The fact that the other party also is in favor of torture plus they have Karl Rove doesn’t sway it for me – Karl Rove is just a guy. He gets used like Hilary Clinton to try to stimulate the base. He’s sleazy slimey politician – Rove, meet Carville.

He’s not an excuse for every failure of ideas, competence and ideology by the Dems. Unless they added a section in the bill where the Minority Party gets to pick a whipping boy and I missed that – could very well be in there.

There is no “lesser of two evils” on torture. I don’t expect finger snaps, but I won’t ever work for someone or some party that support torture and if that means another party that supports torture wins because I go third party, or because I am ready to go for the throat of Dems as well as Repubs that enable torture, then that’s what it means.

Karl Rove has nothing to do with that and he’s not a red flag that gets me wound the way Hannity uses the name Clinton to rile the base.

I won’t be sitting back, but anyone who doesn’t stand up against this is on my hit list, not just Republicans. America won’t ever become better than it is right this minute if people don’t demand something better and quite handing the right “Clinton” to use as an excuse and the left “Rove” to use as an excuse and instead strip the excuses and tell people they are judged for what they do.

It’s time for me to drop it again because I’m too angry.

Prairie Sunshine @ 92

For the record, CNN and MSNBC are covering a Florida manhunt in progress. Hey “news” babes… there’s a runaway terrier in our neighborhood…better send out the full news crew.

Iraq?
Congress ratifying torture?
Hmmmm, not so much.

____

And Fox is convening its crack panel of experts for renewed live location Aruba coverage of the Natalie Holloway story.
_

Vote on Kennedy’s amendment set aside so that Sen. Byrd can offer his amendment –

Members rushing home to politick … the fever of politics can undermine the serious business of the Congress … once the winds of November draw nigh … we have seen the mistakes [that result] from showboating … what is this new impetus spurring congressional action? … It was the Supreme Court’s decision in the Hamdan case … thank God for the separation for powers … for the Supreme Court … debate is the best recourse for BAD bills …

Finally I understand what is the EPU – thanks for the clarification the other day. I’ve been around since before the move to this new .com website but have only recently begun posting frequently. Great community here, definitely not homogenized opinions and that is great.

Fire and Passion from Christy’s position are vital and I am a supporter… but I think it is still valuable to say that support from the left to sellout dems is not to be taken for granted.

really where we are right now is where we get with the logic of the ‘least-worst’ as opposed to requiring candidates to have some principles they won’t sell out – that hasa been concisely expressed as ‘cleaning house’ and I approve.

At the moment I have one Senator of courage – Durbin, and the other one needs to get the Leiberman treatment in 08.

All that is needed is at least one Senator of courage to stand up and try to initiate a filibuster – run out the clock, give the country more time for debate- I don’t know the procedural issues and I don’t care if they don’t think they have the numbers ….

IF NO ONE TRIES WE WILL NEVER KNOW…

and as has been pointed out a vote on cloture would be a meaningful way to judge their real position… a NAY vote when they know they don’t have the majority still smells of political calculation…

are they “keeping their powder dry” for something more important?

what if this was about death squads rounding up “5th columnists” in broad daylight?

As Graham told the Senate Judiciary Committee in February, “the administration has not only the right, but the duty, in my opinion, to pursue fifth column movements…”

then quisling dems like Obama might timidly vote for a comprimise measure toothlessly requiring the Leader to run his death squads only at night…

Kissinger is a war criminal.

http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-hkiss.html

I was just at Sen. Kennedy’s office. I’ll report more fully (I’ve got to run right now), but there’s one question that’s come up here a few times that I got answered. A filibuster is still procedurally possible. The “unaninmous consent decree” does not rule it out.

Politically possible is a different question.

lina – I’m advocating voting against torture supporters period. If that puts you in a third party, that’s where it puts you and if that means a torture supporting democrat loses to a torture supporting Republican, that’s what it means.

Let’s put it this way. You have two men who rape your daughter running for office and one is likely to win and a third party candidate running too. Who do you vote for? It’s that kind of issue to me.

Hokay, a staffer at Reid’s office says he hasn’t heard anything about a filibuster being off the table. I may be wrong about this.

I shit you not. CNN is reporting on a purse snatching in Michigan.

Maybe on Christy’s to-do list we need to revisit the licensing of the people’s airwaves.

Mary at 99 — Rove is leveraging our morals against us — it’s his electoral hallmark, the same way that he uses dog whistle phrasing to rile the base. He is a red flag for me, but only because I have watched him from the sidelines to manipulate the process — or others like him, from Lee Atwater forward until now — and I’ll be damned if I let them get away with it any longer. That’s my line in the sand. Because my country cannot survive this disgusting travesty any longer — and neither can our Constitution — but we cannot make changes without a change of power, no matter how painful this is to watch, that is the truth of it.

And damn them for putting all of us through this.

Text of the Byrd Amendment SA5077:

The authority of the President to establish new military commissions under this section shall expire on December 31, 2011. However, the expiration of that authority shall not be construed to prohibit the conduct to finality of any proceedings of a military commission established under this section before that date.

I eliminated the insertion point. The amendment’s intent is to sunset military commissions.

Christy

Wonderful post and followups among the comments.

I’m with you all the way! Telling everyone I see to vote STRAIGHT DEM. ticket, preferably absentee to do what we can to thwart hackable equipment as much as possible.

DEM DEM DEM all the way to choosing the pomeranian for dogcatcher, if that’s what it takes.

We simply MUST break the stranglehold repubs have on our government before they destroy the Constitution and our country along with it.
YES! IT IS THAT IMPORTANT! -uh- imho, heh…

Professor Foland @ 103

I was just at Sen. Kennedy’s office. I’ll report more fully (I’ve got to run right now), but there’s one question that’s come up here a few times that I got answered. A filibuster is still procedurally possible. The “unaninmous consent decree” does not rule it out.

Politically possible is a different question.

That is good news. That means they have no excuse, procedurally not to stop this.

NOW IS THE TIME TO COME TO THE AID OF YOUR COUNTRY.

Will we live in fear or in pride?

Easy for me to say, huh?

to make our conutries laws, and to make rules concerning our countries captures on land and water…

what is this new impetus spurring congressional action? did congress find its way back to legislating its article 1 duties?

it was the SCOTUS decision in the Hamden case…while the pres. grabbed the wheel and the congress dozed…thank god for the separation of powers envisioned by our forefathers, thank god for the SCOTUS.

committee, discussion, ample time for consideration was how the senate was designed to operate, not rushing…

“slaphappy legislation that is changing by the minute…”
in closed door neg. w/ the white house, many of the successes announced less than a weeek ago were trashed…

stiff oppos. from JAGs to white house…last Friday’s bill was supercedded by Monday’s version…in such a frenzied….who really knows the nature of the beast….this bill could well most be the most important piece of legislation the congress could enact…my ammend. offers a chance for review

w/o the taint of a knagaroo court…offering proper judicial review to detainees…do we want this bill struck down by the SCOTUS as well?

How in our haste we can place in jeapodary those things that we hold most dear…the senate has not recog, the error of its ways….this legislation defines the processes for bringig enemy combatant to trial…this bill determines defendents access to evidence….defines torture

WE cannot afford to get this wrong….as w/ patriot act, my ammend gives a way to provide rememdy for hasty actions…a review provided by a sunset provision…

the use of this type of review gives an opportunity to strengthen parts that are weak and right the wrongs of past transgressions…

let us prescribe an antidote to self-inflicted wounds. the remedy of reason…

A 5 year window sounds like a nothing amendment…Bush has 3 years left. Am I missing something?

Mary @ 105

lina – I’m advocating voting against torture supporters period. If that puts you in a third party, that’s where it puts you and if that means a torture supporting democrat loses to a torture supporting Republican, that’s what it means.

If for nothing else, think of lining up a majority for the party of Russ Feingold, that would let Feingold steer some committee investigations. Once you have that, the momentum shifts, and the fair-weather believers in democracy will line up behind the few moral leaders like Feingold.

No matter how many fair-weather Dems have let us down, Feingold has been unfailing in his defense of democratic standards. Help get him behind the steering wheel. Think about it, please.

NeoJoe at 113 — there have been some rumbles that Bush would not accept a sunset provision because it would limit the CYA on torture protections and, if so, this could constitute a poison pill inserted into the legislation.

Warner says he thinks Congress is doing a fine job of oversight.

He’s back to demonizing all the detainees and condemning the lack of uniforms…

Anne @
48

It’s the War Crimes Act they’re afraid of. With Red Cross access to the detainees and a report no doubt going to be issued, they want to make sure they cannot be prosecuted.

You know, for people who claim to have such an all-encompassing vision for the world, their actions reveal them to be in dire need of corrective lenses, as their world view is remarkably short-sighted and narrow. On top of that, their execution is egregiously incompetent.

I take it that the amendments that have so far been voted on only need a simple majority to pass (or fail), but I assume the bill to which the bastardized McCain amendment will be attached could be filibustered.

I sure hope someone steps up and at least tries.

Even if the Dems (and anyone they may shame into voting with them) can’t summon the forty-one votes needed to sustain the filibuster, the Dem leadership faces the stark choice:

Bush wants the power to detain and torture Americans. Will you stop him, or help him?

The choice to pursue the filibuster – a choice any Senator may make – is a choice to ally themselves with the Constitution and the American people.

If not even one Democratic Senator will bother to honor their oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution, how can they expect anyone to bother about the Democratic party?

How can they seriously expect the support of those they choose to abandon today?

The adults I grew up around recognized tyranny, and were proud of having helped to defeat two. I was born in 1960, fifteen years after the Nazis’ fall and the world’s “discovery” of the camps and the death machine.

I grew up hearing that “silence is assent”.

The powerful words of the Senate Dems mean nothing so as long as every single Democratic Senator chooses not to exercise their power.

The Senators fight passionately to earn and keep their power: they choose to do this.

Today, will every Democratic Senator choose not to use this power?

And in November, they will expect others to choose – what, exactly? They offer the choice between:

(1) those who choose to legislatively empower the President’s whimsy as the sole basis for detention and torture of Americans.

or

(2) those who loudly and vociferously proclaimed….and never lifted a finger to exercise their real power to stop this horror.

Had enough of both?

NeoJoe @ 113

A 5 year window sounds like a nothing amendment…Bush has 3 years left. Am I missing something?

I think that Byrd is just doing the best he can with what he has.

Gottit, thanks Christy…

I just audibly screemed!!!

Warner ” I find this body has a high degree of vigilance as it pertains to holding this administration accountable. . . .”

WTF is he smoking?

Mary @ 104

lina – I’m advocating voting against torture supporters period. If that puts you in a third party, that’s where it puts you and if that means a torture supporting democrat loses to a torture supporting Republican, that’s what it means.

Let’s put it this way. You have two men who rape your daughter running for office and one is likely to win and a third party candidate running too. Who do you vote for? It’s that kind of issue to me.

I would not vote for a torture supporting Democrat, unless I was in a state that had a torture supporting Dem vs. a torture supporting Republican, and, that torture supporting Republican also supported the Iraq War and the Cheney plan for an Iran War.

If I vote for the third party candidate in our two-party system, I’ve given a green light to the Iraq War, the Iran War, and the use of tactical nuclear weapons used therein.

If I vote for the torture supporting Democrat, I believe I can convince him to change his mind and to support Supreme Court nominees who will uphold the Constitution.

Prairie @ 107 – That should be toward the top of the list. We must take back the airwaves.

Christy – this is so well-said. Thank you for giving my ire a jump. But Dems need to watch themselves, too. If they’re go-along-to-get-alongs who step on our Constitution or are soft on torture, they’ll be gone in the next primary.

Mary — I hear what you’re saying, but I also know that Levin has tried ad nauseum to get documentation and he’s been stonewalled everywhere, all the time. How does a minority party build a position when they have nothing in the way of information? Cripes, these folks haven’t been able to leave the damned room without the Repugs pulling a fast one on them (as evidenced by one House vote last week, taken when two Dems left the floor for another hearing and a potty break).

And how does a minority party build a position if they have no media coverage? Until Big Dog caved and stuck his neck out with Pox News, there was very little coverage of Dems; even the biggest sports news provider was gaming the system against Dems. For all we know we do have a position but we can’t get it out in the public eye anymore than we can get a bloody copy of the 2nd Bybee Amendment.

WE failed them, by not being more active in 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004. The mid-terms of 2002 in particular should have seen more of us out there busting hump to get Dems elected, in order to stop the war. I blame myself, should have gotten more involved before Dean emerged in 2003. But I can look myself in the mirror now, I know that I’ve been giving it my best. I just wish I had more time and money to do more of the same. I guess I go to war with the progressive I am and not the progressive I want.

We better get control because I can’t take anymore of this s***! I want my country back! I would like to know where the hell our Democrat leadership is though. C’mon guys! Get your heads out of the sand! We’re AMERICANS remember? Remember what it was like to stand tall and proud for truth and justice and real freedom? Time to forget about fear and stand up tall before the real “terrorists” (see dictionary: White House) destroy our country. You can do it. I’m right behind you holding the flag.

“Give President maximum flexibility” = let him f*ck us raw?

Pam in SC @ 98

Oklahoma kiddo, Its always about Hillary with you, She gave a good speech. I detest LIZZY Dole but she doesn’t get to me like that. JMO

Heeeeeere we go. Again.

It’s about the Iraq war. It’s about almost 3,000 dead American soldiers. It’s about thousands upon thousands of dead innocent old people, women and children. These are NOT difficult things to internalize.

Above all: it’s about those, regardless of political party affiliation who support continued Bush foreign policies of aggression.

And it just might, just might, have something to do with preventing a world war.

“She gave a good speech.” Yes. And the Senator does good triangulation, too.

I could go on. And say things like there are better Democratic candidates say like Feingold or Gore, etc. But what’s the use?

O/T, tangentially, from Woodie’s new book:
_____

Bush is covering up the extent of violence against U.S. troops in Iraq:

According to Woodward, insurgent attacks against coalition troops occur, on average, every 15 minutes, a shocking fact the administration has kept secret. “It’s getting to the point now where there are eight-, nine-hundred attacks a week. That’s more than 100 a day. That is four an hour attacking our forces,” says Woodward.

Intelligence shows Iraq violence will worsen in 2007:

The situation is getting much worse, says Woodward, despite what the White House and the Pentagon are saying in public. “The truth is that the assessment by intelligence experts is that next year, 2007, is going to get worse and, in public, you have the president and you have the Pentagon [saying], ‘Oh, no, things are going to get better,‘” he tells Wallace. “Now there’s public, and then there’s private. But what did they do with the private? They stamp it secret. No one is supposed to know,” says Woodward.

Bush will not support withdrawing from Iraq under any circumstances:

President Bush is absolutely certain that he has the U.S. and Iraq on the right course, says Woodward. So certain is the president on this matter, Woodward says, that when Mr. Bush had key Republicans to the White House to discuss Iraq, he told them, “I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me.”

Henry Kissinger regularly advises Bush and Cheney:

Woodward also reports that the president and vice president often meet with Henry Kissinger, who was President Richard Nixon’s secretary of state, as an adviser. Says Woodward, “Now what’s Kissinger’s advice? In Iraq, he declared very simply, ‘Victory is the only meaningful exit strategy.’” Woodward adds. “This is so fascinating. Kissinger’s fighting the Vietnam War again because, in his view, the problem in Vietnam was we lost our will.”

Mad Dogs @ 3

“We are pushing you off our side of the field, across the fifty yard line and headed toward the goal. And we are about to score. You think we can’t do this? THINK AGAIN, because we have DAMN WELL HAD ENOUGH.”

Well said Christy!

Christy Harden Smith you outta come play some rugby! That’s the stuff!

It is something that I’ve been saying myself over the last 24 hours.

I don’t want to raise false hope, but:

Staffers at Senator Reid’s office are apparently telling callers (per various blogs) that because the Leahy/Specter amendment re habeas has failed, the likelihood of a filibuster has increased.

I imagine that if the Republicans can’t bring themselves to vote to restore habeas, they also have no intention of voting to sunset in five years (Byrd’s amendment) or to clarify what torture will not be countenanced (Kennedy amendment) or to support Rockefeller’s amendment. When those go down to defeat too, the Democrats must make their stand against an out of control, lawless, oath-trashing majority party which is prepared to surrender every principle they swore to uphold to a dictatorial political party leadership run out of our Executive Branch.

In other words, the filibuster may be looming this evening (if the pressure on Reid and the Democrats continues).

A GOOD NEWS P.S. Extremely helpful Emergency Paper Ballot Legislation has just been introduced in both the House and the Senate which would allow, and pay for, optional paper ballots in every election jurisdiction this fall, if the local jurisdiction decides to take advantage of it. Details at bradblog.com [RFK, Jr. spoke about this on Hardball yesterday, and Lou Dobbs will cover it briefly tonight]. Chris Dodd, a HAVA co-sponsor, is co-sponsoring this remedy to HAVA and deserves tremendous credit for doing so. This legislation would need to pass this week, before Congress adjourns, to take effect for November.

Who knew that there were so many Islamic scholars in the Congress who decry how Moslems misunderstand their own religion and feel so comfortable lecturing them on it.

this bill would inhibit the prez to rapidly exercise his ability to use all the tools …

Warner – aaaargh!

what is WRONG with these people????

Slightly OT

But Christy mentioned counting our votes

And this might turn out to be good news

For those of you can do it on your computers, the House is at this moment finally, after 3 years, holding hearings on Rush Holt’s Bill, HR 550, the Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act. It is the gold standard of bills for DRE machines and requirements for a voter verifiable paper audit trail and no internal wireless communication devices.

The webcast link for these hearings is http://www.cha.house.gov

Maybe Rush Holt’s bill will prevail? I girl can dream, can’t she?

Isn’t it possible for a democratic congress to pass legislation that would reverse this atrocious republican effort / success?

pow wow–

Did I misunderstand the article in today’s NYT, or is this paper ballot thing not limited to state and local offices? That is, it does not include the US Senate or House?

I think it is important to pull out all the stops now to stop this abomination. It is too dangerous to trust that the Supreme Court is going to bail us out eventually. We’ve been giving a free pass to anti-choice candidates for years, figuring the Supreme Court will bail us out.

First, the bill contains provisions to make it nearly impossible to get the court to hear a case covered by the law. There is a good chance it may never get to the SC.

Secondly, a lot of damage can be done in the 5-10 years before it gets to the SC (assuming it does). Other bad things will be ladled on top of this. There comes a point where the shit is so deep, you can can’t clean out the stables. We’ll need to divert a river to clean up this crap.

Thirdly, and most importantly, by the time this gets to the courts, there will be one or two more radical authoritarian justices. There is no guarantee this will be overturned. And if you think Democrats’ winning in November is going to stop radical right justices from being confirmed, think again — (a) taking the house means squat, (b) taking the Senate is a long shot, (c) some Democrats voted for Alito; taking the Senate won’t be enough to stop Alito Redux, and (d) Clarence Thomas was confirmed by a Democratic Senate, AND they had the goods on Thomas.

We are playing with fire here. This bill legalizes just about every power Stalin or Hitler could ever have hoped to have. Anyone who thinks they aren’t going to make people just disappear to save their asses is being naive. And depending on the SC to save the Constitution is just too risky.

Holy ned -

Judge Taylor denied Bush’s request for a stay, and instead ORDERED the administration to STOP the NSA warrantless domestic wiretapping program within SEVEN DAYS.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..again.html

Awesome.

bryan @ shotgunfreude @ 36

Kennedy is on fire!

To paraphrase, from what I caught:

“Other countries will look at us and say, This is a war crime, and you will be held accountable!”

Yeah.

Someone in the know please answer me this :

Would the current Bill (soon to be law) that seems to give Chimpy and his buddies immunity of past atrocities be applicable in international courts?? In another words, could another country grab and hold him for trial in another part of the sane world?? If so lets hope his passport will be kept up to date. Then again I’m talking about the schmuck that has no curiosity whatsoever about other cultures and has been out of the country only while being President.

jayackroyd:

As I understand it, this contingency paper ballot would cover every race on the ballot this fall. So federal offices would absolutely be included.

http://bradblog.com/

That picture sums up the Bush era.

drinksforall @ 137

bryan @ shotgunfreude @ 36

Kennedy is on fire!

To paraphrase, from what I caught:

“Other countries will look at us and say, This is a war crime, and you will be held accountable!”

Yeah.

Someone in the know please answer me this :

Would the current Bill (soon to be law) that seems to give Chimpy and his buddies immunity of past atrocities be applicable in international courts?? In another words, could another country grab and hold him for trial in another part of the sane world?? If so lets hope his passport will be kept up to date. Then again I’m talking about the schmuck that has no curiosity whatsoever about other cultures and has been out of the country only while being President.

I think it would be possible to have the supremes void the bill, and the CYA provision would be out the window.

Even besides that possibility, the Geneva Convention is already itself enacted in U.S. domestic law, because it was properly ratified by the Senate. This bill does not overturn the U.S. accession to the Geneva Act. So I believe, although I haven’t studied this bill carefully yet, but it may not prevent domestic prosecution under Geneva.

Hopefully someone with more expertise in these areas of law can pipe in here.

A little good news on another front in the endless war:
Via Glenn Greenwald
Judge Anna Diggs Taylor today refused the Bush administration’s request to issue a “stay” of her Order in the ACLU v. NSA case. When Judge Taylor ruled previously that the President’s warrantless eavesdropping violated both the criminal law and the U.S. Constitution, she issued an Order enjoining the Bush administration from continuing its warrantless eavesdropping program.

The parties agreed to “stay” that Order until Judge Taylor could rule on the administration’s request that the Order be stayed until the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals rules on its appeal. Today, Judge Taylor refused the administration’s request and instead gave them only seven days to comply with her Order.

The government guy made a reference to this being wartime. I hope she gave him grief on that.

So much for the red, white and blue. . .

…now, our national colors are red, black and blue.

Here is President-Elect Feingold’s awesome response to this bill.

Rock on, Russ! Bless that man.

Someone in the know please answer me this :

Would the current Bill (soon to be law) that seems to give Chimpy and his buddies immunity of past atrocities be applicable in international courts?? In another words, could another country grab and hold him for trial in another part of the sane world?? If so lets hope his passport will be kept up to date. Then again I’m talking about the schmuck that has no curiosity whatsoever about other cultures and has been out of the country only while being President.

Bush disdains “international law” except when it suits his ends. He will never submit to it, and will use the cover of shit like they’re fixin’ to pass to avoid accountability. Avoiding accountability (batting 1,000 thus far) is the hallmark of his life.

But, yeah, I’d love to see him and the rest of the Bushzies in the dock at The Hague.
_

I just got home from work. I see Senator Byrd is speaking. It sounds like they are still considering an amendment. Which amendment are they discussing? I see that the headlines on google said bill narrowly passed in senate 51-48. Torture bill passed? I’m sick. Can someone fill me in?

Pow wow–

Barbara Burt, vice president and director of election reform programs at Common Cause, a good-governance advocacy group, said that the bill would have been stronger if it had required precincts to provide paper ballots in federal elections, but that it was a step in the right direction.

“Lack of funding has been the main excuse that local election officials have used to avoid implementing paper precautions,” Ms. Burt said. “This takes that excuse away from them entirely.”

Ms. Boxer said ordering paper ballots in all elections would have been impractical.

“I think Big Brother dictating something to local jurisdictions is a big mistake, because they will balk at it,” she said. “What we’re saying here is that you run your own elections, and we are going to help you run it properly. If local officials don’t take advantage of the option to take precautions, then they’re the ones on the line.”

From the Times article. So I did misunderstand. The feds will pay for the printing of paper ballots, but won’t require them under this legislation.

RevDeb @ 120

I just audibly screemed!!!

Warner ” I find this body has a high degree of vigilance as it pertains to holding this administration accountable. . . .”

WTF is he smoking?

Oh, that was you screaming? I thought I heard something besides Warner trying to extoll the virtues of agreement between the Senate Republicans and the White House.

I wish someone would get up and speak in support of the Byrd amendment. Obama is supposedly a co-sponsor. Where is he?

carolyn urban @ 144

I just got home from work. I see Senator Byrd is speaking. It sounds like they are still considering an amendment. Which amendment are they discussing? I see that the headlines on google said bill narrowly passed in senate 51-48. Torture bill passed? I’m sick. Can someone fill me in?

Specter amendment requiring habeas corpus was defeated 51-48. Byrd trying to insert a 5 year sunset clause. That’s where we are period.

Carolyn at 145 — they are discussing the Byrd amendment, but the Kennedy amendment is tabled as well at the moment and will reemerge as soon as they finish the Byrd debate.

And the fact that Byrd is raising the “I’m from West Virginia…” phrasing means there is a smackdown on the way. FYI.

Good gravy, I think Byrd’s going to have a stroke. He seems like he’s completely blown away by the crap the Repugs are slinging.

Hope you’re right about that smackdown, Christy.

At least some democrats are finding thier voices!

One thing that always wins elections is being the proudest defender of the words and concepts enshrined in the constitution. That’s one reaon the gun lobby is so successful. The dems need to realize that the constitution is law #00001, and it is still on the books. If they want to take the moral high ground, they need to call Bush and the republicans on destroying the protecctions of the constitution. SUCH STATEMENTS WILL PLAY IN PEORIA!!!

So this sunset provision basically means that Bush is immune from prosecution for five years, but unless it is renewed he becomes vulnerable to it again in 2011? Could this weakness be enough to keep Bush from signing this into law?

RevDeb @ 120

I just audibly screemed!!!

Warner ” I find this body has a high degree of vigilance as it pertains to holding this administration accountable. . . .”

WTF is he smoking?

I did my screaming in my head – didn’t want people trooping into my office or calling 911…I don’t know where Warner has been all these years, but I cannot think of any significant example of the Senate exercising any more than token oversight or accountability.

Warner’s wracking his brain trying to think of the horror that would come with a sunset provision, but apparently cannot envision the horror that would flow from passing the McCain amendment in the first place.

Poor Robert Byrd – he sounds like he might cry. He’ll have plenty of company if he does…

Thanks. I’m loving Byrd. “I’m speechless. I’m speechless.” Let’s hear some straight talk for a switch.

*xyz @ 151

So this sunset provision basically means that Bush is immune from prosecution for five years, but unless it is renewed he becomes vulnerable to it again in 2011? Could this weakness be enough to keep Bush from signing this into law?

I think that is why someone said this could be a poison pill.

lhp @ 132

My congressman is a rocket scientist!

Actually I’m not in Holt’s district, but I’ve heard him speak several times and he’s really, really good. And my Rep is Frank Pallone, who’s also fairly progressive, especially on environmental issues.

Just called Menendez’s office again. Put on hold for a couple of minutes [nice classical music, actually pretty soothing to hear Hayden]. Shorter Menendez staffer: the bill keeps changing. They had just voted down the amendment to preserve habeus rights. So I asked what the senator’s positions were on habeus, on torture. Positions all good, so I said I expected him to work with others in the Democratic caucus to filibuster, to do everything possible to fight for our rights, for our Constitution. ME: “This bill is immoral. This bill is unAmerican. This bill is counter to our national interests.”

C’mon, people. Call your Democratic senators again, and help them grow a spine for the sake of the Constitution, for the sake of the rule of law, to stop this dictatorship.

Is this what it felt like in the final days of the Republic in Rome, when Julius Caesar seized power, and the Senate just gave away the authority of the state? Augustus kept the Senate, for a show that the old Republic still “lived,” all the while consolidating power for his family. Heaven help us, Barney may be in charge [and I say that as a Scottie lover].

Rayne @ 150

Good gravy, I think Byrd’s going to have a stroke.

Well, Byrd collapsing on the Senate floor would be one way to delay the vote on this bill. Take a hit for the cause, Robert!

Christy — exactly the right message. We’ve known for weeks that Rove’s strategy was to bring an outrageous bill like this one, for which there is no compelling need to consider prior to the elections, as a means to force the Dems into impossible choices (as Prof says, “between bad and awful”). It’s called a “wedge issue,” and it’s purpose is to split Dem from Dem and Dem party from its most activist core. So far, the Dems have remained remarkably united, with the leadership and the vast majority of Dems holding together to oppose the bill; that’s a very good sign. We have to do the same.

Rove’s strategy wins only if we let him win. We can stay united and focused on the need to get as many Dems elected in November as possible — and then lets have some hearings! Think of having Karl as the first witness in a hearing on the misuse of security clearances.

btw, I thank you’re being too polite by saying “thank again” (twice). You always were a nice person.

I don’t comment very often – I can’t express myself well even under the best of circumstances, and today I am beside myself with fury. But I just want to say that I agree 100% with Mary, and I don’t think she deserves such criticism. I find it impossible not to feel negative with this crop of worthless scumbags.

Rove is evil, but all he did was insist upon lifting the rock. Of course he knew it would expose the repulsive crawling insects that infect the Democratic party, but he didn’t create those miserable creatures himself.

Congress is appallingly, unbelievably incompetent, evil and corrupt, but I’m not confident that just because these people call themselves “Democrats” they will govern any better. (I’ll accept it would be difficult to be worse, but judging from their performance over the past few years, if anyone could manage it, it would be the present group of Dems).

Here’s my “positive” response so far this morning. Sent e-mail to Sherrod Brown’s campaign (and I will do others later) saying: 1) I will be sure to remember his actions until I see an opportunity to retaliate in the future; 2) I will immediately cease all conributions to all Democratic candidates, and will explain why, being sure to highlight Brown’s vote in particular for my decision, and 3) if I don’t receive a worthwhile response to this e-mail, I shall send a sigificant contribution to his odious opponent, purely out of spite, and forward him a copy of the receipt. (I know they don’t usually read e-mails, but sadly I am even less coherent on the phone).

#3 is not terribly constructive, but it will make me feel better. I realize what it says about me, but FUCK people like Brown. Does anybody honestly think he would represent our interests even if he is elected?

We need to threaten these bastards to shape up or be shipped out. Seriously.

“The GOP is going to live to regret the day they spit on the Constitution.” Christy, this is your best statement ever. If only some brave soul would get up on the Senate floor and mention that they are spitting on the constitution then maybe CNN would take notice. Write to Jack Cafferty and let him know.

Hugh @ 130

Who knew that there were so many Islamic scholars in the Congress who decry how Moslems misunderstand their own religion and feel so comfortable lecturing them on it.

Perhaps they should instead look to their own beliefs/religions and explain how they can justify their obvious misunderstanding of their great faiths? I know of nothing in either Christianity or Judaism that condones torture…

In Judaism

The Torah’s first mention of the phrase “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot” appears in Exodus (21:22-27)

(snip)

The ideal of vengeance for the sake of assuaging the distress of the victim plays no role in the Torah’s conception of court justice, as victims are cautioned against even hating or bearing a grudge against those who have harmed them. The Torah makes no distinction between whether the potential object of hatred or a grudge has been brought to justice, and all people are taught to love their fellow (Lev. 19:17-18).

In Christianity

In the Expounding of the Law (part of the Sermon on the Mount), Jesus urges his followers to turn the other cheek when confronted by violence:

You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-39, NRSV)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_eye_for_an_eye

Rayne @
150

Good gravy, I think Byrd’s going to have a stroke. He seems like he’s completely blown away by the crap the Repugs are slinging.

Hope you’re right about that smackdown, Christy.

As am I. It’s very disingenuous crap, too.
A sunset provision? Oh the horror!
Please. Spare me.

njprog@156

My congressman is a rocket scientist!

I’m in his district and he is more than excellent.

Raw Story update: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0928.html

Video: Olbermann traces Bush Admin’s pre-9/11 actions

David Edwards
Published: Thursday September 28, 2006

MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann takes a critical look at actions the Bush Administration took before 9/11 against Osama Bin Laden and the al Qaeda terrorist network.

(snip)

TRANSCRIPT

OLBERMANN: As the Bush administration continues to try to deflect questions about whether its war in Iraq is encouraging terrorism, it has managed to score a victory in Congress about how it wants to deal with the people it has detained as terrorists, though victory at what cost remains to be seen for all of us, the House voting mainly on party lines, passing the detainee bill today, despite warnings from Democrats that it fails to meet judicial standards, and will likely get struck down in the Supreme Court for being unconstitutional.

The bill says it is up to the president to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Convention, an action interpreted by many international legal scholars as being by itself a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

(snip)

Can anyone help me with this question? Didn’t Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot and Saddam pass laws that made them and their cronies immune from prosecution for international war crimes?

My capacity for disbelief has long since been exceeded when it comes to the fascists that control our federal government. When POTUS is in the dock at the International War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague, he’ll look back on this day as the beginning of the end of his campaign to control the oil wealth of the Middle East. In the meantime we have an election to win, resoundingly. And let’s hope that the national Democratic Party leadership is smart enough to remember this day as the day the line was drawn between real Democrats and the faux Democrats (like Lieberman) who voted WITH the effing Repugnicans on this travesty of legislation.

Tortoise @ 159

….FUCK people like Brown. Does anybody honestly think he would represent our interests even if he is elected?

We need to threaten these bastards to shape up or be shipped out. Seriously.

say it, terrapin, say it

the Senate Dems’ abdication on the “Domestic Dungeons, Abductions, and Torture Act” will give rise to lots of new facilities* and that means some great ribbon-cuttings.

Federal facilities do need names – anyone up for a contest on naming DDATA camps after quisling Dem Senators and their GOP masters?

I think the Sherrod Brown Center for Genital Mutilation has a nice ring to it.

OT again, but things just aren’t breaking George Felix Allen’s way:

The Richmond Times-Dispatch reports that the Virginia Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans will be holding a news conference today to respond to Sen. George Allen’s efforts to distance himself from symbols of the Confederacy he once embraced. “Sen. Allen in the past has been a friend,” said Brag Bowling, a national officer for the group. “But he has apparently turned 180 degrees as far as honoring Virginia’s history and heritage.”

via kos. This whole camera everywhere thing is gonna make it much harder for these guys to use their racist code words and pick their venues to reassure their racist base.

Obama:

proud to be sponsoring this amend … must adopt sunset provision

we don’t know when WOT will end … must have formal power to look at amend …

Isn’t true that the war criminals can be apprehended and tried in any country that is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions? And just because the US is retroactively rewriting the Conventions, this does not protect American war criminals in counties, other than the US.

So Bush, Cheney and other American war criminals risk arrest if they leave the US.

Senator Levin (D-MI) just jumped up. I voted for him once. He was one of only 5 Senators to vote against the Communications Decency Act, ten years ago.

Senator Obama did show up. Good for him.

My only fear now: What happens if smart Republicons say, “Fine. Here’s a sunset, like in the Patriot Act.”

Then, would the Democrats vote for the underlying bill? That would be bad.

Christy, thank you for this … however, I’m very, very pessimistic about the Dems’ chances of doing anything, even if we are successful in taking back one or both houses in November. I just read an extremely sobering commentary by Tristero on Digby’s blog, and I think he has a good read on what’s happening. Here’s the link:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..2295724580

I fervently hope you’re right but I’m really beginning to feel utterly powerless and distraught about our ability to do anything to check this monster’s powers.

So, Bush and the crew make themselves immune to war crime prosecution with this. If Dems come into power and revoke it, then Bush will have political cover for pardons all round.

Seems to me that it make sense for the Dems to wait until after Jan 2009 (with a Dem president) to move on any reversal of this legislation…

nj progressive @ 156

Is this what it felt like in the final days of the Republic in Rome, when Julius Caesar seized power, and the Senate just gave away the authority of the state? Augustus kept the Senate, for a show that the old Republic still “lived,” all the while consolidating power for his family.

Maybe “The Decider” will become the new creeping euphamism for “dictator”. The word “Prince”, which to us means a monarch, comes from “Princeps Civititatus”, or First Citizen, the title Augustus gave himself as part of his propaganda that he was just a first among equals, under the consent of the governed.

Heaven help us, Barney may be in charge [and I say that as a Scottie lover].

Why not – Caligula appointed his horse to the Senate. Would anyone put it past Bush and Rove to get Barney into high office?

Christy Hardin Smith @ 63

And, btw, if you can’t bring yourself to support the Democratic party, find yourself a Democratic candidate — for the House, for the Senate, for a state race, that holds your values and holds positions that you find palatable. Man the phones, send out mailers, walk your precincts — whatever it takes to get them elected.

But do something tangible — it is going to take every single one of us working flat out between now and November to win this election. And it’s going to take us getting out from behind our computers and doing the tough, every day work. But it can be done — so do the work that you think needs doing for the people for whom you feel comfortable working — but DO THE WORK. This is too important to leave to someone else.

Dear Christy:

In case you missed my apology for angering you from the previous thread, allow me to do so again.

In regards to your clarion call, unfortunately it is too late for this election cycle in my congressional district (Mary Bono! YUCK). However, I definitely will be contacting who ever the Democratic party rep to see if we can get anyone to challenge her in 08.

RMD

You would think that it would be immediately, screamingly obvious to anyone, of whatever party, with a shred of ethics or morality left in their heart, soul, or body, that this is a bill to vote against, with pride and pleasure. But there seem to be far too many members of Congress with neither ethics nor morality left.

I took the red-white-and-blue ribbon off the mirror in my car last night, because this isn’t the country that I was raised in. I’ll support the handful that support that America, but not anyone who caves on this issue.

“I dictate, I’m the dictator”
– *

Christy at 115

Funny you should mention possibility of a poison pill, just as I was about to ask…

There has been muted talk of that option all week, I thot.

However. Whatever. Fingers crossed & paper bag at the ready for hyperventing problems. Go for the gold. No less. *puff puff.

goodgollymolly

}}}}}!!! I !!!{{{{{

}}}}}!!! HATE !!!{{{{{

- ahem -

[this continuing nightmare].

FDL is a good place to be in a storm.
Thanks guys. We WILL get through this together.
Breathe!
Don’t worry. We’ll clean up later.
Just. Don’t. Let. Go.

[Honest, Mary. I get it. I agree. But we HAVE to get there before we can play with the toys. With Dems. shut out of all the hearings, we’re stuck. Voting for 3rd party candidates only guarantees a continuing repub. stranglehold. We MUST change the power structure and THEN Dems will not only HAVE to listen to your eloquent voice but will be free to mull over AND ACT on your ideas. And we ALL will see to it they dump those evil evil policies the Bush gang dragged in from the sewer.]

I’m surprised Warner can speak with this much shit on his face.

RMD at 175 — I think we have Mary Bono’s challenger coming up in Blue America sometime soon — maybe next Wednesday?!?

While I am motivated to get out the vote. To call, to stump, to blog is what I must do. But I am so afraid that the Bush Regime and the corporate interests of our society are going to act out for the world the disadvantages of capitalism. I believe as we all saw the disadvantages of communism we are going to be treated to the negative consequences of capitalism. Sometimes we are part of someone else’s lesson. Perhaps the world needs to see what happens when the corporate branch gets control of the white house.

It’s going to be very rocky in the next 10 years.

Obama -

design of the Senate to step back … accept this modest amend … that in 5 yrs time we can review …

Byrd back on the floor -

Thanks Obama: well said, wise.

Warner -

I respect Byrd, but strongly disagree. This is going to be a very very long war. Trials under these commissions must be able to go through – no time limit.

_________

Warner thinks Byrd’s amend would send out a signal to terrorists they would not be tried if amend passes.

good lord.

tortoise at 159 — I think you misunderstand me or other criticism. Mary and I have both spent enough time in the legal saddle to understand the difference between a disgreement on ideas and a personal quarrel — and this is a disagreement on emphasis on ideas. This bill is an abomination and its constitutional implications are enormous. But the disagreement is on how best to combat that — short term or long term. I think you guys all know that I adore Mary, and I hope that has not been misunderstood in the arguing of the need to keep pushing forward through all of this disgust we are all feeling. Correct me if I read you wrong, Tortoise — honestly, I think if Mary thought I was just being mean for no reason, she’d be more than capable of telling me straight out. *g*

Christy

u have permission to use my flag ‘n flower pic any time ;->

Christy Hardin Smith @ 179

RMD at 175 — I think we have Mary Bono’s challenger coming up in Blue America sometime soon — maybe next Wednesday?!?

If I’m not mistaken his name is David Roth (same name as my brother, but different guy, that’s why I remember)

So far, my brother tops him on google, and whereas I love my brother and am proud of him, we need to do something to get the candidate more hits and more attention.

angie @ 161

Hugh @ 130

Who knew that there were so many Islamic scholars in the Congress who decry how Moslems misunderstand their own religion and feel so comfortable lecturing them on it.

Perhaps they should instead look to their own beliefs/religions and explain how they can justify their obvious misunderstanding of their great faiths? I know of nothing in either Christianity or Judaism that condones torture…

In Judaism

The Torah’s first mention of the phrase “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot” appears in Exodus (21:22-27)

(snip)

The ideal of vengeance for the sake of assuaging the distress of the victim plays no role in the Torah’s conception of court justice, as victims are cautioned against even hating or bearing a grudge against those who have harmed them. The Torah makes no distinction between whether the potential object of hatred or a grudge has been brought to justice, and all people are taught to love their fellow (Lev. 19:17-18).

In Christianity

In the Expounding of the Law (part of the Sermon on the Mount), Jesus urges his followers to turn the other cheek when confronted by violence:

You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-39, NRSV)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_eye_for_an_eye

Indubitably so:

“Perhaps they should instead look to their own beliefs/religions and explain how they can justify their obvious misunderstanding of their great faiths? I know of nothing in either Christianity or Judaism that condones torture…”

That photo up there fair sears my eyes. The Bard wrote the caption four centuries ago:

“meet it is I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.”

I feel kinda like I am watching the Salem Witch Trials…

Warner does not want the rejection of the Kennedy amendment to be misinterpreted by the world…

then don’t pass the legislation, m’kay?

Emma Anne @
15

Here’s how I see it:

Step 1) Take back the House and/or Senate
Step 2) Stop and reverse as much damage as possible in the next two years
Step 3) Primary every Democrat who knuckled under for torture
Step 4) 2008 Elections

…and here’s how I see it:

1) ReThugs gain 2 Senate seats and 4-6 House seats in the ‘06 elections through voter disenfranchisement, Sec. of State positions and electronic voting machines
2) Veto-proof super majority created
3) Dem’s are again “shocked” but do nothing
4) McCain/Jeb Bush ticket wins in ‘08 for same reasons
5) McCain “mysteriously” dies during first year, making Jeb Bush President. He is re-elected two more times, making him Pres. for 11 years.

…and you thought it was horrific now. Things will get much, much worse before enough Americans are effected to the point of massive protests to restore our Republic.

Teddy is blowing his fuses over this. Good for him!

Righteous indignation works.

More please.

Warner is a dried up dottering old prostitute war whorse with a full diaper.

I’m praying (and I’m not religious) for a filibuster. If you’re making calls today, call any Dem Senator that isn’t up for reelection this year and urge them to act NOW. After seeing that Smith (R-OR) voted with the Dems I called our Dem Sen., Wyden, urging him to filibuster. I told him that Oregonians are not extremists and we respect the Constitution over partisan politics.

They aren’t acting on principle, they are acting in a craven grab for power.

Not exactly. For most Repubs, I would agree, this is about power–keeping if not expanding it–and nothing more. But for more than a few (actually, a lot more than a few), this IS a matter of principle.

I.e. a matter of FASCIST principle, which is the only principle that they really believe in. For them, the constitution is and always has been an odious document limiting their power to transform the country into the totalitarian regime that they’ve always wanted it to be.

And it is ultimately THESE Republicans who we will have to face in the not too distant future in a final showdown between the democracy that we cherish and the fascism that they so deeply desire.

A massive constitutional crisis is coming, likely next year, and these are the people whom we’ll be up against when it comes.

And we can’t lose it. Nor will we, I believe. I’m 100% with Christy on this.

ipu4me at 188 — which is why everyone needs to get up off their butts and do the work to get Democrats elected. If there is a substantial majority of Democrats voting, then no attempt at fixing anything in the world will work — an undeniable Democratic tilt to the voters, Democrats working the polls to supervise, etc., etc. We have to do the work. Period. And no amount of bitching gets around that fact.

THIS PROTECTS AMERICANS and gives warning to other countries: YOU CARRY OUT THESE TECHNIQUES AGAINST AMERICANS AND YOU’VE COMMITTED A WAR CRIME!

These techniques are listed in the Dept of Defense documents – we have prosecuted others for these war crimes!

- Kennedy

Sunsetting a bill tacitly endorses the bill’s purpose, which in this case is to allow torture, suspend habeas corpus and due process rights, and exonerate the Bush administration from war crimes. If a sunset clause is the best they are willing to do, then the Democrats are just as complicit in endorsing torture as the Republicans are.

Tony at 195 — or Byrd has reason to believe that the GOP in the House and/or Bush will not vote for a bill with a sunset provision, in which case it acts as a poison pill for the entire piece of legislation. Depends on the facts.

Here’s a possibility for hope, if you assume Senator Specter actually means what he says for once. (Long shot, I know, but maybe…?)

Specter unequivocally denounced the habeas-stripping provision in the bill, saying it was plainly unconstitutional and would definitely be overturned. But… he also voted against the amendment to remove the no-habeas portion of the bill.

So: more of Specter’s hypocrisy? Or… did he want to leave the full bill intact in its most odious form, and save his vote to vote against adoption of the entire bill?

And with Snowe showing up to vote against it, and at least one more Specter-like defector, probably Susan Collins, the bill goes down in defeat.

Possible? What do you think?

For reference, here’s Specter’s rhetoric, from the Washington Post:

Specter said hearings before his Judiciary Committee showed that the military Combatant Status Review Tribunals do not have an adequate way of determining whether suspects are enemy combatants.

He charged that by striking habeas corpus rights for terrorism suspects, the bill “would take our civilized society back some 900 years” to a time before the Magna Carta was adopted. He said this was “unthinkable.”

“What this entire controversy boils down to is whether Congress is going to legislate to deny a constitutional right which is explicit in the document of the Constitution itself and which has been applied to aliens by the Supreme Court of the United States,” Specter said. If the bill passes without habeas corpus protections, it will be struck down by the high court, and “we’ll be on this floor again rewriting the law,” Specter predicted.

oh god … voting begins on amendments, yay’s and nay’s

Warner has asked that votes be taken on all amendments now.

Levin wants time to consult.

Quorum call now.

Christy

u have mail ;->

All amendments in one vote, or votes for each?

ipu4me says @ 188
4) McCain/Jeb Bush ticket wins in ‘08 for same reasons
5) McCain “mysteriously” dies during first year, making Jeb Bush President. He is re-elected two more times, making him Pres. for 11 years.

I do believe – and someone here will correct me fi I’m wrong – that Jeb wouldn’t be eligible for that second full term, having served more than half of McCain’s. There’s a pesky Amendment about that.

Christy Hardin Smith @
193

ipu4me at 188 — which is why everyone needs to get up off their butts and do the work to get Democrats elected. If there is a substantial majority of Democrats voting, then no attempt at fixing anything in the world will work — an undeniable Democratic tilt to the voters, Democrats working the polls to supervise, etc., etc. We have to do the work. Period. And no amount of bitching gets around that fact.

Exactly right. There’s an old saying which sometimes sounds like a non-sequitur, but it fits in this case: “Don’t worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon.”
Hand-wringing won’t cut it. We ALL need to get busy.

Regarding: Graham, Warner, and McCain:

It’s the old republican bait and switch:

Stand up for principle, but when the vote comes cave in to the president.

kovie @193
I am very much with you on that point. I don’t know what the future will bring, but it is quite true that for most Republicans this is just a song and dance for power. For some it is a fulfillment of their authoritarian desires.

Winston Churchill:

“We have but one aim and one irrevocable purpose. We are resolved to destroy Hitler and every vestige of the Nazi regime. From this nothing will turn us – nothing. We will never parley, we will never negotiate with Hitler or any of his gang.”

“Any man or state who fights on against Nazidom will have our aid.”

Is this on C-span 2?

Bustednuckles @ 205

Is this on C-span 2?

yes

Busted at 207 — yes, C-Span2 has the coverage today.

Bustednuckles @ 206

Is this on C-span 2?

yes.

Hmmm, All I hear is classical music.

Nevermind…..

oh you people w/ high speed… ;>)

If the Dems don’t filibuster or stop this in some other manner our nifty new “Domestic Dungeons, Abductions, and Torture Act” will give rise to lots of new facilities and that means some great ribbon-cuttings.

Federal facilities do need names – anyone up for a contest on naming DDATA camps after those who stood aside or acted on behalf of this evil law.

The Senator George Allen Center for Cervical Corrections has a nice ring it.

…but I’m also partial to the Senator McCain Freedom Dungeon.

anyone see a contest opportunity here – a pair of nail pullers to the Senator most artfully paired with a DDATA camp name?

[ps this was downposted as I’d managed to send up waayy up thread as an accidental correction. Senators, should I have the offending fingers broken, or merely held over a flame until the flesh bubbles?]

Gack…Saxby Chambliss…

c-span 2: getting ready to vote now

one amend at a time – comments allowed

Christy OT sorta

We’ve gone on several Elderhostels, and plan to continue …

Always proud to spread the word of FDL, & well-received doing so.

Well-seasoned folk are A.N.G.R.Y. also.

And they vote.

p.s., even ran into a couple recently who were already tuned in to FDL. Never met eachother before, and still it felt like meeting good good buddies!

Now, the asshat from GA who replaced a hero by rigging the voting machines.

It is so hard to keep from barfing through this whole experience.

Saxby Chambliss thanks his fellow purveyors of torture for their so-called compromise…

I’d tell you to eat sh*t, Chambliss, but the brown stuff on your nose clues me that you’ve already been to lunch.

Professor Foland @
104

I was just at Sen. Kennedy’s office. I’ll report more fully (I’ve got to run right now), but there’s one question that’s come up here a few times that I got answered. A filibuster is still procedurally possible. The “unaninmous consent decree” does not rule it out.

Politically possible is a different question.

‘

thank you professor foland!

selise @ 219

Professor Foland @
104

I was just at Sen. Kennedy’s office. I’ll report more fully (I’ve got to run right now), but there’s one question that’s come up here a few times that I got answered. A filibuster is still procedurally possible. The “unaninmous consent decree” does not rule it out.

Politically possible is a different question.

‘

thank you professor foland!

Ditto…Thanks Andy!

tony at 196:

Sunsetting a bill tacitly endorses the bill’s purpose, which in this case is to allow torture, suspend habeas corpus and due process rights, and exonerate the Bush administration from war crimes. If a sunset clause is the best they are willing to do, then the Democrats are just as complicit in endorsing torture as the Republicans are.

Exactly the craven split the difference positions that has gotten us to this terrible juncture…

Obama -

design of the Senate to step back … accept this modest amend … that in 5 yrs time we can review …

Future Obama “By restricting the actions of the Terrorist Liquidation Squads to the hours of darkness, we can protect our country and protect our citizens from having to see their neighbors dragged away to the Terrorist Freedom Camps…”

really there seems to be nothing so low that some Dems won’t enable – how did that ’sunset’ provision in the Patriot Act work out again?

H.R. 3199 (USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005 )

Obama (D-IL), Yea

Saxby Chambliss, (R-GA) is up now. Insists that the Torture Act complies with the rule of law. Mr. Chambliss has always had reality issues.

Just like a train wreck in progress, I can’t stop watching this.

Just discovered this site today, I’m supposing this is “live blogging”? Wonderful, whatever you call it, thank you, all of you for the ensight. This old lady on the Left Coast is very afraid all this amounts to is a great big, scripted, circle jerk for both sides. Each will come away with crumbs for their constituants, and Bushco will walk away with everything they wanted. I think Hab. Corp. was nothing more than a piece of meat, to get the dogs off the real issue, pardon for all Bushco operatives. Gawd I hope I am wrong, but I’m too jaded to trust either side.

“If all that Americans want is security, they can go to prison. They’ll have enough to eat, a bed and a roof over their heads. But if an American wants to preserve his dignity and his equality as a human being, he must not bow his neck to any dictatorial government.”

Dwight D. Eisenhower
34th President of the United States
(1953-1961)
December 8, 1949

Saxby Chambliss is speaking now. I have grown to crinch at the sound of his voice, after he opined about the illegal domestic wiretapping concerning AT&T, “It seems to me that we need to have all the phone company records …”

Does anyone know if Cleland is planning a rematch?

DairyMaid @ 210

Bustednuckles @ 206

Is this on C-span 2?

yes.

If the quality of the video stream is any indication, it’s in heavy use today.

bryan – I hadn’t realized that Specter voted against his own habeas amendment. The vote was 48 for and 51 against, and I understand one Nelson abstained from voting? I assume that was Ben Nelson of Nebraska, the Republican saboteur inside the Democratic caucus, who simply couldn’t bring himself to support the centuries-old right of habeas corpus in order to force a tie vote that Dick Cheney would have had to break. Thus Specter voted on the “winning” side as a procedural matter, presumably?

Negotiations between Frist and Reid appear to be ongoing right now, off the floor, about scheduling a final vote for passage. At what point would a filibuster have to be announced and implemented?

Teddy is pissed. I’m hoping he has something up his sleeve. If there is anyone willing to put his name on the line over this it would probably be him, or Russ, or Wyden. Do it!

Chambliss is an ass. Let’s pass exactly what the house did. Why do we even have a Senate?

Whose line was it that Saxby Chambliss has a name that would embarrass a Golden Retriever?

He’s an embarrassment to my species.

Omigod — they’re going to let f*cking Huckleberry yap on for 15 minutes about how we got HERE?

Pour him a big cup of STFU. Stat.

Kate at 223

WELCOME! Live? You bet!

– old lady in OH ;->

*ucklebery us up now. Had to mute it. Can’t stomach hearing his voice, self-righeous prick.

Saxby is my senator. One of his infamous statements after 9/11 was that sheriffs should shoot all the muslims at the border of Georgia.

Froomkin sums up nicely with his choice of editorials today.

From today’s New York Times editorial : “Here’s what happens when this irresponsible Congress railroads a profoundly important bill to serve the mindless politics of a midterm election: The Bush administration uses Republicans’ fear of losing their majority to push through ghastly ideas about antiterrorism that will make American troops less safe and do lasting damage to our 217-year-old nation of laws — while actually doing nothing to protect the nation from terrorists. Democrats betray their principles to avoid last-minute attack ads. Our democracy is the big loser. . . .

While I agree that the complicity of the democrat ‘opportunists’ or enablers, in office at this time in history, it is also apparent that the timing of this move is a cruelly cynical exploitation of the timing and weakness of the current political situation.

Whether that cruel cynicism is Rove’s or someone else, is immaterial to me.

I wanted to say this in Angie Paccione’s thread yesterday, but I couldn’t think of a way to say it without raining on her parade…

I think it is important to somehow let the Democrats running for office know that they could be doing a lot better, could be raising a lot more money and could end up with a much better GOTV drive if they had leadership with the stones to stand up for the Constitution and what is essentially the right thing to do.

I think the candidates who win need to take office knowing that the Democrats already in D.C. didn’t help them by acting like cowards. The next “generation” of candidates will have a much better chance of preserving whatever gains the Democrats earn in November if the latest crop of elected officials tries and succeeds in changing the spineless culture that is the D.C. Dems.

Of course, there are exceptions I could name, but what’s the point? Our Senate is actually debating allowing the president to snatch people for good and torture them. That this bill with likely pass is inconceivable to me.

rat bastahd @ 228

Teddy is pissed. I’m hoping he has something up his sleeve. If there is anyone willing to put his name on the line over this it would probably be him, or Russ, or Wyden. Do it!

another phone call or fax of encouragement couldn’t hurt!

Warner objects (triumphantly!) to the word “shall” in Kennedy’s amendment. And smug Warner will not amend the amendment. Kennedy, like Byrd, seems completely unable to understand this idiocy, notwithstanding all he has heard from the jackasses over the past five years. I say waterboard every last one who votes for this absurdity. And no habeas corpus for you, ladies and gentlemen. None. Just suck it up.

Our prior concept of war has been completely altered….must act in a different way….much discussion about the rule of law…allows for tribunals, judges, evidence…

does not give unlawful enemy combatants the same protections as citizens, and that is as it should be…

illegal combatants who do not follow rules of civilized behavior…let’s state what every American knows to be true…al Quaeda beheads and drags through the street…
we’re providing rules of law in this bill…

in keeping w/ our highest values…moves forward w/ a terrist interrrogation program…commend the president, warner, mccain for crafting a bill that meets the challenges we face…

put this propgram in place immediately…defeat all the ammendemnts put forward…

Saxby of GA

pow wow, actually Nelson (NE) voted against the amendment, the only Dem to do so. It was Snowe I think who didn’t vote.

Smith (R-OR) voted for it, but that doesn’t mean he’ll vote against the bill without. I certainly wouldn’t count on it.

pow wow @ 227

bryan – I hadn’t realized that Specter voted against his own habeas amendment. The vote was 48 for and 51 against, and I understand one Nelson abstained from voting? I assume that was Ben Nelson of Nebraska, the Republican saboteur inside the Democratic caucus, who simply couldn’t bring himself to support the centuries-old right of habeas corpus in order to force a tie vote that Dick Cheney would have had to break. Thus Specter voted on the “winning” side as a procedural matter, presumably?

Negotiations between Frist and Reid appear to be ongoing right now, off the floor, about scheduling a final vote for passage. At what point would a filibuster have to be announced and implemented?

Specter voted for his amendment, along with Chaffee, Smith (OR), and Sununu. All the other Yea votes were cast by Democrats, except for Jeffords’ (I-VT).

http://www.senate.gov/legislat…..vote=00255

Yes, video stream is bad,can’t hardly read the names.
I did catch this d*ckhead’s though.

I gotta’ put this *sswipe Graham on mute.

His rationalization of this crap is going to corrupt my child’s growing brain.

I noticed earlier some one said Judge Taylor refused to grant a stay for Bush, I can’t find it anywhere on the news. Yes the GOOBER speaking is from my home state EWWWWW

Pam in SC @ 242

I noticed earlier some one said Judge Taylor refused to grant a stay for Bush, I can’t find it anywhere on the news. Yes the GOOBER speaking is from my home state EWWWWW

Glenn has it here.

orcatjf @ 229

Chambliss is an ass. Let’s pass exactly what the house did. Why do we even have a Senate?

Fat Cat Smug Bastard, he is. He doesn’t care about terrorism, human rights, or the constitution. He has no sincere stance, except to go along with the good old boys in order to stay in power. He just wants the Senate to adjourn so he can go play some golf.

breathe, people. three good ones, nice & slow.
then back to the idiocy-watch…

rinse, repeat…

Pam in SC @ 244

I noticed earlier some one said Judge Taylor refused to grant a stay for Bush, I can’t find it anywhere on the news. Yes the GOOBER speaking is from my home state EWWWWW

Here’s a Wired blog on the matter. The author went over to the AT&T building in question and looked for any sign of them moving all the NSA equipment out:

http://blog.wired.com/27BStrok…..m=20060817

Kate @ 222

Just discovered this site today, I’m supposing this is “live blogging”? Wonderful, whatever you call it, thank you, all of you for the ensight.

Welcome to the fold, you’ll be addicted before you know it!

Thanks for correcting me, rat and Cujo.

” something this country can be proud of”

Fuck you sir.

I cannot take Graham. It’s almost personal. Bye, Bye Lindsey.

Sorry Christy. That’s why I put a disclaimer in the first sentence :) I did not mean to direct my comment at you or anyone in particular, and I know Mary can speak for herself far more effectively than I could ever hope to speak for her (which I would never presume to do). What I really meant was that the POV that she was expressing IMO deserves more attention. It’s a clash between pragmatism vs. idealism, but maybe we will find solutions to accommodate both approaches if we discuss them.

There are many of us who do not trust the democrats to be ANY better than the present Congress. We should strongly support candidates that have character and conviction wherever we find them. But I am not pragmatic enough to support a candidate who does not deserve it, just because they wear a “Democrat” label.

Pam in SC

I get down to visit my mom in SC at least once a year. Are you near Greenville-Spartanburg? We could have an FDL get-together! I know there are progressives in SC.

Adie @ 247

breathe, people. three good ones, nice & slow.
then back to the idiocy-watch…

rinse, repeat…

Thank you for the reminder!

Thanks Christy. I haven’t been this mad since Nixon. And I am willing to fight just as hard as I did then to kick the bastards out of office.

Another round of calls and faxes would be helpful at this moment.

How many of our soldiers are being held right now by our enemies? Or is that a state secret, too?

We are holding thousands of people, thousands!

C’mon Graham, tell us why you are putting our soldiers and civilians at risk by your dirty compromise.

I am not buying your faux piety at all.

Lying Lindsey:

Warner is wonderful, balanced, McCain is one of my best friends, paid a heavy price…believes strongly i the Gen. Conv….torture would have been worse if the US had not pushed back during Vietnam…

been a military lawyer for 20 yrs…never been shot at (ed. note…too bad)

military law will work to make us safe if properly applied…

we’re here because of SCOTUS…I’m shocked Gen. Conv applied to unlawfuls…but SCOTUS said we have to be here…

I have pushed back against the admin when I thought they were overstepping….this bill is a good product…

we are at war w/ enemy combatantws who do not wear a uniform…viscious …we had to redo military commission to get in line w/ common article 3 of Gen Conv…

says you have to have a regularly constituted court to deal w/ enemy combatants…military commission created based on UCMJ…court martial is not the right way to try an enemy combatant…thus this bill…

jury does not need to have jury to see evidence and have detainee see classified stuff…prosecutor should not read out classified evidence…military commission model that affords sue process…

evidence not vengance…rendering justice to terrorists even though they won’t render justice to us…

downd pilots, mogadishu…pikot released…two shot down in libya…told khadaffi if he harmed pilots he would be prosecuted under geneva convention…

not going to undercut all the hard work…evidentiary standards legally sifficeint, model of international criminal court…I added detainee treatment act w/ mccain…doesn’t undemine anything…military judges willl use same standards as those used in intern criminal court…

mo davis, finest guy in military justice…will render justice

reauthorize military commissions in compliance w/ gen convens…will not come back to harm us…

nj progressive Yes I live very close to BJU.

Graham, you don’t know what you are talking about, dumbass.

Senator Smith (R-OR) spoke for the Specter amendment but said he will vote for the dirty deed (my words), too.

Olympia Snowe’s aunt who raised her died earlier this week and she was at the funeral.

Graham seems to be in some sort of anti-matter universe at the moment. He just insisted that anyone who says this law condones torture doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Since when does reading the bill make you unable to understand what you’re talking about?

pow wow @ 226

…Negotiations between Frist and Reid appear to be ongoing right now, off the floor, about scheduling a final vote for passage. At what point would a filibuster have to be announced and implemented?

If there is no filibuster, would “Sen Harry Reid Integrity Camp” be suitable for one of our Leader’s brave new dungeons?

now Graham is speaking for the Supreme Court? How can anyone listen to these asses day after day?

Chucklefuck:

” . . He spoke for forty five minutes and no one understood a word that he said. But we had fun playin with the pencils on the bench . . . “
(Arlo Guthrie – The Alices Restaurant Massacre)

if this is a military situation, then these people should be classified as POW and subject to the Geneva Conventions. Not some unilateral torture resolution.

GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba – His ankles chained to the floor of the hearing room, a Saudi detainee hoped to convince three U.S. military officers that he is not a danger to the United States, has no intelligence value and should be released from the Guantanamo Bay prison.

But in his one shot this year at getting out of here, the detainee could not produce letters from his family that he wanted to submit as evidence. They were seized by the military, along with thousands of other documents from detainees, as it investigates whether the suicides of three prisoners in June were assisted or encouraged.

While the letters on their own may not have convinced the panel that the detainee should be released, the hearing shows that the Naval Criminal Investigative Service’s confiscation of more than 1,100 pounds of documents is hampering detainees’ ability to confront accusations against them.

Correspondence between attorneys and their clients was among the documents seized. Lawyers for detainees say the military is violating attorney-client privilege and exacerbating the isolation of detainees by taking family pictures and other personal items.

Document seizure hampers Gitmo detainees

orcatjf at 267 — welcome to my world. *g*

You cannot win a moral war (as it it were a moral war) using immoral means!!

How scary is that…not only is the war immoral, but so are our means!! Karma is coming and I hope you republicans will take it squarely on the chin when it comes…but you won’t, because you are the wealthy, corporate elite living behind high gates and locked neighborhoods.

And you freaks think it’s bad to burn a flag??????????

I cannot think of any possible reason dems wouldn’t filibuster this – in the name of the United States of America, democracy, the Constitution and the Rule of Law.

We’ve got 45, right? We can lose that chicken Ben Nelson and even Mary Landrieu. That still gives us 43. Anybody who isn’t willing to stand up and be counted against torture, just leave – take an early vacation. It’s the rethugs who need 60, right? The dems don’t have to vote against cloture, they can just not be there…

I know we said the same thing on the Alito filibuster and were shocked at the feet of clay – but geez. How could any dem rationalize voting for cloture on torture?

Harry and Durbin should be able to round up (or strongarm) the dems for something as vital as this – PLEASE!

Pam in SC

My mom lives over at Pebble Creek, off Stallings Road. I go by BJU on my way to the Greenville Y to swim laps. We have to share a toast to FDL [especially near BJU *g*]

Tortoise at 253

Well said.

But I am totally swayed by the need to restore balance in gov’t. One party rule MUST be stopped in its tracks, ASAP! It’s killing our country, its ideals and its people, not to mention all those harmed beyond our borders.

THE only sane way I see to do that is to vote Dem.

Everything else is a dead-end.

Idealism is great for discussions and goals.
But as a 1st weapon of choice, it won’t win the day right now, IMHO.
Get a fair election & some balance tw’ the major parties.
THEN continue weeding the melon patch.
Alt.: run the tiller through now, you lose the whole melon crop.

I know. I’ve lost it….
Where’s that paper bag…….
at least I left the tv off, so I don’t have to listen to sens. chamberpot or snickerdoodle logicalize.

Thank God!!

“time has expired.”

OK Huck gone sound back on.

There’s hubbub on the Kos live thread that Reid ruled out a fillibuster on the Ed Schultz show a few minutes ago.

We’re humane and just, the enemy is vicious. Yadda yadda yadda Smarmy graham.

This is why I can’t watch TV. I feel so much hostility.

orcatjf @ 269

if this is a military situation, then these people should be classified as POW and subject to the Geneva Conventions. Not some unilateral torture resolution.

You’ve put your finger on the true irony here. They have two ways they can deal with these folks. One is to treat them as criminals, and put them on trial. The other is to treat them as POWs. The latter course has its hazards, but it’s probably useful enough since they could have been kept there for as long as the Taliban was still fighting in Afghanistan (which it still is). Instead, they chose to do something illegal, for reasons I don’t claim to understand, but none of the rationalizations make sense.

Lying Lindsey II:

abu ghraib was an aberration…six offenses…anybody in our gov who violates will commit a felony…and we added thre more…we don’t legitimize torture…

torture is a crime in america and if you engage in it you have commited a crime and can be prosecuted/put to death for it…

prior to this title 18 was a mess, needed to be striaghtened out…
now our peole know what they can and can’t do…

this pres. implements treaties…non grave breaches…the pres has the obligation to fulfill treaty…so not only have we allowed the CIA program to go forward w/o violation of Gen Conv but have allowed pres to reinforce treaty…

we have not redefined Gen Conv, we have explicitly defined what would be a violation of Gen Conv, and have told pres.he must define the other parts of the treaty…

my hope is our homework will be supported by the SCOTUS…I’m confident the court will support this bill…

I’m confident the congress has cleared up a huge conflict…who should make a decision involv. enemy combatant status…it is the military tribunal that has always decided enemy combatant status…our own troops are being sued…impeding the war effort…a judge should not decide who is an enemy combatant…that should be done by the military….that’s the way every other country does it….

habeus has not place in this processs… the germans and the japanese don’t allow enemy combatants to claim habeus…

it is not detroying habeus…rational balenced approache…judges are not equipped to play this role in a time of war…

humane and just…alow us to ptoect ourselves against a visvcious enemy…

when you cast a vote, remember we are at war, not fighting crime.

Last speaker before the vote now.

I would like to hear from people-in-the-know about Lindseed’s practice of military justice. Shoot first and ask questions later, no doubt.

scarecrow @ 257

Another round of calls and faxes would be helpful at this moment.

i keep getting busy signals at kennedy’s office.

got through to kerry’s office. i asked for a filibuster. was told that senator kerry was working hard with other democrats to get the amendments passed. i updated the aide on the current status of the the amendments and that last i counted there wasn’t enough democrats to pass anything. looks to me like a filibuster or other procedural action is the only way to block this bill. was told that a filibuster wasn’t possible because of yesterday’s consent agreement. i asked if senator kerry had agreed to that… was told, no, that it was a leadership agreement only. i said, well that leaves senator kerry free to filibuster (or support one)… please pass along my request.

Just tuned in and haven’t read comments. Are we making a concerted effort to jam the phone lines for a filibuster?

Cornyn’s on now, and here’s where I’ve reached my mute button threshold.

why do they waist some much time on the hollow cordiality? It is sickening. The the Senator is being a dick, call him one. Maybe it will change behaviour

Whenever Graham starts speaking, push away from the table.
He opens his gab and the snake oil starts dripping out. He is THE Rethug shell-game artiste. He is sent out to dazzle and sparkle and appear as the righteous Republican opposition… and when he’s done, like any good hukster, he’ll always walk away with your money.

I think Graham is speaking from his legal experience, but is in deference to his military background and his senior Senators.

His argument concerning CIA is flawed. You don’t codify covert actions into public law. It’s the inevitable nasty sausage factory.

In their inept attempt to go along with the Rovian compaign talking points about national security, this codification of CIA kidnap-torture-imprison-kangaroo courts only cedes the moral high ground, allows world media to further editorialize on American imperialism and hegemony, and stops us from having any credibility when using human rights complaints in front of the world toward despotic regimes.

By allowing the White House to get involved in the Senate deliberations for political reasons, the Senate is failing to honor America and our constitution, and failing to protect its military and foreign civil service personnel.

Cujo359 @ 284

Cornyn’s on now, and here’s where I’ve reached my mute button threshold.

yep me too.

So whatever happened to rule 21?

Wouldn’t this be as good a time as any to stop business on the floor of the senate?

Tortoise — politics is a contact sport, one with a steep and painful learning curve.

You’re soaking in it.

In late November 2004, while most of us were still in the depths of a deep funk, Howard Dean flew around the country to meet with Deaniac activists from every state. We’d all been clamoring for something to be done after the bullsh*t that happened during the primary and again during and up through the election. It came down to four options:

– Dean remain as head of a fledgling activist organization formed from the ashes of his primary;
– Prepare for Dean run for POTUS in 2008;
– Form a third party (with Dean to run or not as its leader);
– Fix what was wrong in the Dem Party.

What option stood the best chance of making real and effective change? The first was seen as not having the critical mass it needed (just as MoveOn cannot effect enough change on its own). The second was seen as untenable if there was the same crappy party and crappier party support. The third would have the same problem as the first, and two existing parties with which to contend and compete.

The fourth was the “easiest” — by which I mean it retained critical mass, had many people within its ranks who were already like minded, had the name/org recognition we needed, and in theory, was home to people who shared our values. But easy it has not been; it has been tough sledding, very challenging.

Consider the other alternative, which one Republican suggested to me — joining the Republican Party instead, to remake them. It’s simply not a f*cking option.

So roughly 25-30% of the Democratic Party — those of us who identified with Dean and his position on issues — have taken on the other 70-75% to force them to be more progressive on social values and more responsible about financial issues, and more conservative about the environment.

Frankly, in spite of the traction we’ve had and the progress we’ve made (Lamont is a perfect example, for instance), we could use some f*cking help. We need people who show up at party meetings aligned with us, who’ll help us pass our agendas, who’ll help us identify, groom and run better candidates, who’ll help us keep incumbents on their toes from within the party ranks. We need people who’ll take seriously being precinct delegates and captains to mobilize other Dems, educate them about the issues, candidates and ballot initiatives, who’ll run for office from school board to dog catcher to POTUS.

Sure, it’s tough to trust the Dems in office. But what’s the alternative? chucking in the towel and lining up in front of the rail cars? Or rebuilding a better party that will kick ass and take names? I’m certainly not going to fold up and roll over and line up just because of this vote. And I hope like hell that folks can see a movement to take back our country is going to take more than the month of September on the floor of the Senate.

selise @ 283

scarecrow @ 257

Another round of calls and faxes would be helpful at this moment.

i keep getting busy signals at kennedy’s office.

got through to kerry’s office… was told that a filibuster wasn’t possible because of yesterday’s consent agreement.

Democratic Senators:

The tortured never consent.

Why are you consenting to torture?

Word has it that Reid made a deal that would prevent Fillibuster if amendments could be brought today. In addition, apparently 4-5 Dems have stated they would not be able to support a Fillibuster if one were to occur.

Not too many solid details, but the jist of it is that they had hoped the Specter Amendment would have been the stopper. It didn’t happen, so apparently there is nothing else planned to prevent a final vote.

nj progressive That sounds great I actually live in Taylors, How can we get to together?

Look, the subject at hand is a law that legalizes torture and these guys are worried about a ‘gentlemen’s agreement” not to filibuster? Didn’t they take an oath to defend the Constitution?

I expect *every single Dem* to fight this one as hard as they can — that means anything up to and including setting themself on fire in the Senate.

I’m reaching to hold a Firedog hand (paw?) on either side, I can’t watch this and I can’t look away… oh, guys.

I was hoping Senator Byrd, Mr. Constitution, would step up and shut it all down. Still hoping….

CarolSoprano @
172

…I’m really beginning to feel utterly powerless and distraught about our ability to do anything to check this monster’s powers.

These jackasses will crash the country before they get to put on their shiny new jackboots.

Why?…Because they’re not that smart, and they’re already panicking, rushing to get some bogus lifepreserver for their criminal selves while the fires that they started are raging belowdecks on the good ship Lollipop and spreading fast.

Typical hoods, when judgement day comes they’ll roll and rat on each other, trying to cut any deals they can to save their own worthless hides.

Nothing like watching pampered dirtbags pleading for lenience to warm your heart.
My only hope is that America doesn’t blink this time, that this time punishment is global…and merciless.

So batten down the hatches and take care of yourself and your loved ones…Because it’s midnight in America…But a new day is coming.

Zergle at 294 — is that from the Ed Schultz appearance or the Kos thread? Do you know the source on that, because I had not heard that particular rule out on the fillibuster.

Zergle @ 294

Word has it that Reid made a deal that would prevent Fillibuster if amendments could be brought today. In addition, apparently 4-5 Dems have stated they would not be able to support a Fillibuster if one were to occur.

Not too many solid details, but the jist of it is that they had hoped the Specter Amendment would have been the stopper. It didn’t happen, so apparently there is nothing else planned to prevent a final vote.

win or lose – they ought to try… put everyone on record. to conceed without fight is moral cowardness… i still holding out for moral courage.

Zergle @ 293

Word has it that Reid made a deal that would prevent Fillibuster if amendments could be brought today. In addition, apparently 4-5 Dems have stated they would not be able to support a Fillibuster if one were to occur.

That’s got to be the stupidist thing I’ve ever heard. But even so, fuck your word, Reid, this is the constitution we’re talking about, here.

Oh, God, Cornyn is on now … talk about needing to hit the mute button – he is a total idiot. I cannot stomach these people anymore. They are all so utterly condescending. He’s talking about American values – how is waterboarding, stripping naked and leaving in a freezing room, and electrodes on your genitals an American (or even human) value?

I read somewhere this morning that a by-product (and benefit to Bush) of this bill is that it will actually legitimize the classification of this 5-year fight against terrorism as a “war” and allow Bush to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants to do, and to classify anyone he wants as an “enemy combatant” (which you can’t do unless war has been declared). This is absolutely frightening and I just don’t understand why the Dems won’t fillibuster the damned thing, if only to buy time to pin the evil one down on what exactly will he allow under his interpretation of Common Article 3.

orcatjf @ 287

why do they waist some much time on the hollow cordiality? It is sickening. The the Senator is being a dick, call him one. Maybe it will change behaviour

I think it beats the alternatives. The Senate has a great many things to discuss that inspire emotions. If they’re to discuss them like civilized people, they need to follow rules. They also were, in times past, in the positition of being opposed to some of their colleagues on one issue, and allied with them on others.

It’s possible to be polite and still express serious differences, I think. It just sometimes takes a lot of effort and control.

“If there are people who would go so far to intimate-” You can tell when someone couches something like that that THEY’RE LYING. Coryn.

Trying to make calls, but I am nearly too upset to speak. Just got off with Leahy’s office again.

Oh, good, now Cornyn is now telling us who the enemy is. Did he pretty much just say Muslims?

and we have to stop defining this as a war. This can not go on indefinitely.

Imagine making deals with the Constitution! Shameful

From the Kos thread.

Numerous posts coming in now from people indicating that they’ve spoken to Reid staffers and that a deal was cut so that the amendments could be brought forward, but to do so, unanimous consent had to be agreed to.

This Cornyn guy speaks incoherently

Teddy up again sound back on.

Zergle @ 307

From the Kos thread.

Numerous posts coming in now from people indicating that they’ve spoken to Reid staffers and that a deal was cut so that the amendments could be brought forward, but to do so, unanimous consent had to be agreed to.

if that’s true it’s incredibly stupid.

Comment I would like to hear on the Senate floor. DO YOU WANT DONALD RUMSFELD TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE AN ENEMY COMBATANT????

The whole thing is… we’re occupying Iraq. Not, obviously the other way ’round. Republicans and those Democrats who want to continue the American military presence in civil war-torn Iraq are wrong. Dead wrong. Bring our soldiers home.

cornyn:

bill doesn’t allow torture…we are at war…our enemies have been at war since before 9/11, but we didn’t know that…

this bill provides CIA w/ clear direction on how to comply w/ international treaty obligations…

tells them how to do their job w/ all those high value detainees at Gunatanmo…this bill will make it so they don’t have to worry about their jobs/lose their jobs/be secure in what they are doing…

agressive interrogation has saved american lives…detainee program works….

people have been removed from the battlefield…this program has saved american lives and must be preserved…we are not torturing people but using legal aggressive techniques…keeping faith w/ the american people to use all ways to keep them safe.

high value detainees at gunatanamo do not deserve the panoply of rights reserved for maerican citizens….
brave patriots who conduct these interrogations should not be at risk…we are not violating our own laws in the interrogation processs…untrue and irresponsible to suggest it…

the enemy is…who has hijacked one of the worlds great religions….kills innocents….this debate is not just about iraq…how would those critics explain terrorist plot at heathrowq, madrid, bali…

we have prevented terrorist attacks on our own soil through these interrogation techniques…we’re on the offensive…
can’t pull the covers over our head and wait for bad people to go away…

hope our collegues will vote against ill-advised ammendemnts…send clean bill to the president so gunatanamo people can be brought to justice…

Reid was had, if true. Stoopid, too.

May someone take the shine off Cornyn’s head.

I don’t think there can be any question that it would be idiotic. I just hope that the staffer is making shit up to cover for something else. It just seems stupid, but they did seem certain they could win the Specter amendment vote.

“Look, the subject at hand is a law that legalizes torture and these guys are worried about a ‘gentlemen’s agreement” not to filibuster? Didn’t they take and oath to defend the Constitution?”

A gentlemen’s agreement presupposes gentlemen, since that’s not the case, this is just an excuse.

Can someone tell us the ground rules on filibuster? What about a “hold” is that only a viable option before something reaches the floor?

Pam in SC

I’ll be down at Thanksgiving. Contact me by email at sjrb66 at verizon dot net, and we’ll make some plans!

i’m worried that kennedy is going to give himself a heart attack. bless him – i do believe he really cares….

I feel like I have landed in the middle of an Edward Albee play…apparently, so do Byrd and Kennedy.

This is an atrocity.

All I can hope is that the Dems’ tactic was to offer multiple amendments, to be able to go on the record and highlight the insanity of what is being proposed, and fully expected none of their amendments to pass.

When it comes time to vote on the bill itself, I am hoping against hope that a filibuster will be tried.

…take the shine off Cornyn’s empty head.

Kennedy’s up now. Citing the Army manual that defines torture – says that it says that any violation can be considered a war crime. The CIA, SEALs, cotractors, etc., are all covered by this. These people ought to be able to understand this – talking about the amendent he is offering.

They’ll now vote on that amendment, and maybe others. The sound of my typing is obscuring the CSPAN audio…

object, object!

Remember…I have nothing to go on with this other than what I am seeing posted on a Kos thread. If anyone here can get an inside track or get some more direct information, please share.

so this is it? They will now vote on the torture bill?

Debate is closed, they’re voting on all the amendments, and then on the bill.

The video feed is still so fuzzy that I can’t read any of the print.

did i just hear “without objection” on the vote for all the remaining amendments AND the bill ???!!!???

selise @
310

Zergle @ 307

From the Kos thread.

Numerous posts coming in now from people indicating that they’ve spoken to Reid staffers and that a deal was cut so that the amendments could be brought forward, but to do so, unanimous consent had to be agreed to.

if that’s true it’s incredibly stupid.

That’s just bullshit. Nobody’s that stupid.

Zergle @ 293

Word has it that Reid made a deal that would prevent Fillibuster if amendments could be brought today. In addition, apparently 4-5 Dems have stated they would not be able to support a Fillibuster if one were to occur.

Not too many solid details, but the jist of it is that they had hoped the Specter Amendment would have been the stopper. It didn’t happen, so apparently there is nothing else planned to prevent a final vote.

(if this is accurate…)

Looks like Senator Reid gets the first pair of fingernail pullers!

And Harry – by all means, I understand why you’ve given the dungeons and torture act a pass.

Your “gentlemen’s agreement” with the Senators who work to overthrow the Republic with today’s vote is more important to you than your oath to uphold the Constitution.

You can look out for a few Senators, and you are deaf to the screams of the people who will be burnt, raped, sliced, frozen, and drowned because of what YOU choose to honor over your Oath of Office.

I grew up hearing about why we had to save the world from the murdering torturing tyrants in the USSR. Where the fuck were you?

Why – almost twenty years after the Soviets fell – are you abdicating your responsibility to the Constitution to allow torture and dungeons here at home?

Vote on amendments, then bill.

Party is over gang. This is it I believe.

Good for Judge Taylor.

Everyone has been so busy giving the Dems their get out of jail free card before even holding their fee to the fire, you may as well hang it up.

After you’ve already said, “beat me beat me, it’s better than having the other guy beat me” it’s a little late to say, “oh but maybe someday you’ll stop.”

I’m tired of covering up for those Dems who have no values and no spine by calling them worthless. They aren’t worthless; they are destructive. I believe Tolkein went with Wormtongue.

I wonder what Bush’s signing statement is going to say.

but they pulled back the quorum call, is there still a chance for the fillibuster?

Cujo359 @
226

Specter voted for his amendment, along with Chaffee, Smith (OR), and Sununu. All the other Yea votes were cast by Democrats, except for Jeffords’ (I-VT).

Damn…I read that wrong. The power of wishful thinking I guess.

We have got to at least get Snowe and Collins to cast votes against dictatorship, and maybe McCain or Hagel… someone’s got to put it over 51. This cannot pass.

Times like this, when everything balances on maybe one or two Senators’ votes, I pinch myself again for the damn fine senator we lost here in Minnesota to a damn plane crash two weeks before the election. Wellstone was miles ahead in the polls. His re-election would have been a cakewalk. Instead we get this doofus GOP lapdog Norm Coleman, a bitter substitute for Wellstone. Coleman, a guy who lost his previous attempt at high office to Jesse “The Body” Ventura…

What I wouldn’t give even to have The Body occupying that Senate seat now instead of another GOP spearchucker.

Wigwam @ 327

selise @
310

Zergle @ 307

From the Kos thread.

Numerous posts coming in now from people indicating that they’ve spoken to Reid staffers and that a deal was cut so that the amendments could be brought forward, but to do so, unanimous consent had to be agreed to.

if that’s true it’s incredibly stupid.

That’s just bullshit. Nobody’s that stupid.

I REALLY hope you are right. I hope the staffer is just BS’ing callers. But it’s sure not looking like it. That is, it looks like the votes are going to happen.

Well, if that’s it this had BETTER be a party line vote, no excuses, this needs to be our blunt object over the heads of GOPers in Nov.

dave m @ 329

I wonder what Bush’s signing statement is going to say.

“Goody goody. I get to do whatever I want and no one can stop me”

that’s what it is going to say.

JFZ @289 -all that, plus opens up the CIA agents for criminal charges overseas. Italy and Germany come to mind. Some day, they’ll get them. And because this Congress encouraged their commission of crime and this DOJ went to bat for covering up conspiracies to commit crime at the highest levels of this government.

I just called Kennedy’s office.

The staffer I spoke to this afternoon told me he was wrong.

The unanimous consent decree does foreclose a filibuster.

With Alito, we all knew the real vote was the cloture vote. I guess this time we lost the cloture vote 0-100.

Bush’s signing statement:
Get out of my way.

orcatjf @ 324

so this is it? They will now vote on the torture bill?

After some closing remarks, or eulogies on our Republic, apparently.

leahy – it’s a farse

If indeed he did so, HOW can Reid still trust the repubs enuf to bother making a deal with them?
As a group, they are totally without conscience, proven over and over again.

What could Dems. possibly gain by cooperating in a deal with these known crooks & liars who are laughing up their sleeves even as they spout gibberish to eat up the clock on this shameful day?

Color me confused.

NO. I didn’t say I’d give up. It’s not in my vocabulary or psyche. I suspect I’ve got company. That’s why I keep coming back here.

without objection…

kennedy:

holding army manual…not unconstitutional to say”the secrty shall direct the state department to…” as warner claimed earlier…
we’re going to say we refuse to protect americans as they sit tonight in iraq or afghanistan by refusing to tell host countries where they might be captured/imprisoned that if they torture americans they will be preosecuted…
not unconstituional to send an email to 190 countries putting them on notice

oh never mind…computer crashing

voting, clerk calling role…woops…now more discussion

I guess Cheany will have to tell Leahy to f— himself again.

Prof @338 – unbelievable.

At this moment I just have to quote driftglass:
******

Maybe it’s just, I cast my eyes back on the last century …

FDR: Oh, I’m sorry, was wiping out our entire Pacific fleet supposed to intimidate us? We have nothing to fear but fear itself, and right now we’re coming to kick your ass with brand new destroyers riveted by waitresses. How’s that going to feel?

CHURCHILL: Yeah, you keep bombing us. We’ll be in the pub, flipping you off. I’m slapping Rolls-Royce engines into untested flying coffins to knock you out of the skies, and then I’m sending angry Welshmen to burn your country from the Rhine to the Polish border.

US. NOW: BE AFRAID!! Oh God, the Brown Bad people could strike any moment! They could strike … NOW!! AHHHH. Okay, how about .. NOW!! AAGAGAHAHAHHAG! Quick, do whatever we tell you, and believe whatever we tell you, or YOU WILL BE KILLED BY BROWN PEOPLE!! PUT DOWN THAT SIPPY CUP!!

… and I’m just a little tired of being on the wrong side of that historical arc.
(end quote)

Professor Foland @ 338

I just called Kennedy’s office.

The staffer I spoke to this afternoon told me he was wrong.

The unanimous consent decree does foreclose a filibuster.

With Alito, we all knew the real vote was the cloture vote. I guess this time we lost the cloture vote 0-100.

and senator harry reid got all the democratic votes?

The consent agreement they are currently talking about it this:

A unanimous-consent-time agreement was reached providing for further consideration of the bill at approximately 10 a.m., on Thursday, September 28, 2006; providing for the consideration of certain additional amendments, and following disposition of these amendments, and the use, or yielding back of time, the bill be read a third, and the Senate vote on passage of the bill.

Secure Fence Act: A unanimous-consent agreement was reached providing that the cloture motion with respect to Frist Amendment No. 5036, to H.R. 6061, to establish operational control over the international land and maritime borders of the United States, be withdrawn; provided further, that on Thursday, September 28, 2006, following the disposition of S. 3930, Military Commissions Act (listed above), Senate resume consideration of the bill, with a vote on the motion to invoke cloture thereon.

The idea as I understand it is that they will vote on today’s amendments and vote on the bill which is the Frist bill which is itself an amendment to the Secure Fence Act. So there will be no cloture vote on the Frist Bill but there still could be one on the over all bill (the Secure Fence Act).

My head and heart hurt.

About to score?!? You are more like a kick-returner before the ‘fair catch’ rule that gets drilled just after he catches a high slow kick and then fumbles the ball. Deer-in-the-headlights-Lamont (the same expression that the kick returner is likely to display just before impact) is down 10 points and the Dems are unlikely to be able to exercise any meaningful oversight from their future minority status. More than anything, you likely will not enjoy the judicial confirmation process when the President has the opportunity to select two more justices during his final lame duck year. But keep up the hope, ten points is nothing in six weeks. Who knows, Lamont could make it close enough for you and all the other losers to scream “Diebold!” even though they use lever machines in CT.

[PWT — have you checked any other poll other than the one that confirms your point of view? Because every poll, including the Q-poll shows a good trend for Lamont, and Lieberman has no ground game. Get your head out of your butt and take a whiff of reality. — CHS]

That’s it. It’s over.

Pat Leahy – who happened to be on the floor along with Rockefeller – wouldn’t object to the Reid/Frist Unanimous Consent request to close out the torture debate with no filibuster, although Leahy does in fact personally object in every possible way: “a farce” he called it. Meaning Harry Reid won’t lead, and Pat Leahy and the others in the Democratic caucus who are prepared to confront Republicans won’t confront Reid about his failure to do so. To their everlasting shame.

Vote on Rockefeller now.

faxed and called all day when I could – my latest to Mr. Give ‘Em Hell his own self

Dear Senator Reid,

this must be how the Czechs felt during Prague Spring, I just never expected to see a Democrat offer to drive the tanks for ‘em

Sincerely,
XXXXX

Just a reminder, leave the trolls to their own trolly ways, do not feed or interact with them.

Selise 348–It would only have taken one of them to object.

This guy tried to explain to me how it was very complicated and there were political realities and that’s why the Senator went along with the unanimous consent decree.

I simply reminded him that nobody was fooled when Chafee voted against Alito, because he had voted for cloture. That he had refused to stand up at the time it actually mattered.

The staffer kept talking after that but I’m afraid I was unable to listen anymore.

What a blight on Warner’s Senatorial days this has been.

pow wow @ 352

Meaning Harry Reid won’t lead, and Pat Leahy and the others in the Democratic caucus who are prepared to confront Republicans won’t confront Reid about his failure to do so. To their everlasting shame.

this is going to take me some time to wrap my head around…

thanks for the reminder,bdu.

bdu @ 334

Well, if that’s it this had BETTER be a party line vote, no excuses, this needs to be our blunt object over the heads of GOPers in Nov.

A party line vote on the bill is a gesture which will fail, though it may still be important.

Fewer votes – 41 from both sides – are required to the stop this thing.

If the Dems don’t filibuster, but hold a party line vote over which the bill passes, they demonstrate – as they have in the past – they’re choosing to roll over.

If they want to win the fight, they choose their stand where they are most able to win. Forty one votes support a filibuster; fifty-one (Cheney as tie-breaker) votes to defeat the bill.

The Senate Dems today choose to allow torture, disapperances, and dungeons.

Unless they choose to filibuster.

Because America’s Constitution is too important to tear up for a few Senators’ grubby handshakes.

bdu @ 355

Just a reminder, leave the trolls to their own trolly ways, do not feed or interact with them.

In this case, there’s nothing to respond to. All he could manage were insults, and even they don’t make much sense.

Anyone wants to pile on Harry feel free:

202-224-3542
202-224-7327 (fax)
77-882-7343 Vegas

Shame

If they don’t fillibuster, but vote no anyway, the GOP is still going to use their vote against them. What’s the point of losing both the perceived advantage AND the Constitution?

I don’t think the Dems really give a shit about our rights. There is no other way to see it.

Fresh thread, all — this was was getting long.

I just yelled at someone from Reid’s office – the guy didn’t even sound like he knew what I was talking about, until he got a script in hand and started reciting me talking points about unanimous concent and virtually no possibility of filibuster now. He heaves a big bored sigh while I’m speaking.

He starts saying Reid, then corrected himself to say The Democrats thought this was a good idea, and I said that’s a pile of crap. I let him know that there has been democratic leadership on this – Senators like Leahy, Durbin, Feingold and Kennedy coming out very strongly against it.

I don’t this guy was aware that there was anything going on in the senate at all. I had to ask him twice to pass my extreme disgust along to Reid.

And if the information on deals and no filibuster are correct, the Dems gain what, exactly? SHAME.

Pow Wow-

I object.

If you think Leahy didn’t confront Reid, you are wrong.

kirk murphy @ 359

A party line vote on the bill is a gesture which will fail, though it may still be important.

Unless they choose to filibuster.

Because America’s Constitution is too important to tear up for a few Senators’ grubby handshakes.

I agree, but it seems they made that choice not to fillibuster when they agreed to unanimous consent. If so, then they damn well better all vote against this piece of shit unconstitutional bill.

got Chafee lost Sununu (from last vote) so far.

I needed 359, for sure.

an aide from Sen Dorgan’s office, or from Sen. Jeffords’ office (can’t remember which. my notes got out of order) just told me that a filibuster wasn’t procedurally possible.

oops never mind.

Hey South Carolinians — there are three events listed in your state for fellow progressives via DFA-Link, think the following one is closest to those of you in Greenville-Spartanburg:

South Carolina Progressive Network
Outreach Event
Thursday, October 12, 2006
7:00 PM
Coffee Underground
Greenville, SC

Join DFA-Link to RSVP. There are also two viewings of Robert Greenwald’s “Iraq for Sale”, but they are in Clinton and Rock Hill.

You could also check the Events listing at the Dem Party site, too. Might be some door-to-door efforts you could work together.

Professor Foland @ 356

Selise 348–It would only have taken one of them to object.

This guy tried to explain to me how it was very complicated and there were political realities and that’s why the Senator went along with the unanimous consent decree.

I simply reminded him that nobody was fooled when Chafee voted against Alito, because he had voted for cloture. That he had refused to stand up at the time it actually mattered.

The staffer kept talking after that but I’m afraid I was unable to listen anymore.

thank you for trying professor foland….

i grieve for what has been lost today. for my country and my loss of faith…

tomorrow is another day… and i’m not giving up… but right now i just can’t do anything but cry.

I likeselise @ 341

leahy – it’s a farse

I like Leahy, too. He and Levin were 2 of the 5 that voted against the Communications Decency Act, back when the internet was populated only by dinosaurs.

The issue of censoring the internet back in 1995 was the first time I cared enough to become active in political activism. Leahy and Levin’s staffers were very helpful and we gave them ammunition, too.

kirk murphy @ 360

If the Dems don’t filibuster, but hold a party line vote over which the bill passes, they demonstrate – as they have in the past – they’re choosing to roll over.

And for what? To avoid being “Cleland”ed? As if that would do it. How can the top of the Democratic Party be so devoid of real leaders? They are letting Karl Rove play them all over again.

I feel so constrained. My heart keeps telling me to hang on, that good will prevail, that this cannot be happening in my country. My head keeps telling me to watch out. Shutter the windows. Lock the doors.

After all this time I am still confounded by the Dems lack of spirit and courage in the face of pure evil. WTF is going on?????? Why do they all seem so scared? Are they waiting for the election to regain their power? Is there some unseen tactic that they are going to use? Or are they truly powerless in the face of this neocon menace?

So we should vote for the cowardly Democrats who got out of the way of this bill out of fear of being picked on by Karl Rove? What’s the difference? The system is broken. We live in a dictatorship; we should either just get used to it or else start planning the underground resistance. Because after this, that’s all we have left.

Dairy Maid – thank you so much for helping me “hear” the statements today! I could not – never can – get CSpan 2 to feed to my computer.

voting still straight party lines, sounds like. serious dearth of GOP defectors. McCain just cast his vote for torture.

Mary @ 337

JFZ @289 -all that, plus opens up the CIA agents for criminal charges overseas. Italy and Germany come to mind. Some day, they’ll get them. And because this Congress encouraged their commission of crime and this DOJ went to bat for covering up conspiracies to commit crime at the highest levels of this government.

Bush’s so-called war on terror is hobbled by his own neocon fantasy that Rumsfeld’s military can give birth to a new middle east. The problem is that Bush and Rice, the neo-neo-cons, have social and free market economic ideas (vis-a-vis Tom Friedman), but the method is not hearts and minds — which they only give lip service to by saying “this is a long war” — but they also are burdened by the acualities of their cold-war neocon elders, Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Notice how old neocons bring up WWII and complaints about the internet spreading “their islamo-fascism?” Statistically, both of these men have live past their usefulness for rational thought in our world. It’s time for them to go fishing, golfing, or standing around at their home-office desk in the suburbs.

These people — Cheney and Rumsfeld — are so out of touch with the realities of the world we live in, they would not likely be hired as Walmart front door greeters. I’m serious.

Dammit, Specter and Collins just voted with the GOP!!!

Landrieu voted with the Dems.

It’s 53-46 on that amendment.

Voting on Byrd amendment is up next. Byrd laid down his oratory thang, some GOPper is BSing.

RevDeb @
120

I just audibly screemed!!!

Warner ” I find this body has a high degree of vigilance as it pertains to holding this administration accountable. . . .”

WTF is he smoking?

He doesn’t have to smoke dope. He is one. He started off with a lot fewer brain cells than the rest of us, from what word is around the Hill.

The first order of business should the Democrats re-take Congress should be repeal of this bill. There will likely be efforts to challenge its legality in the courts, but the real test of the Democratic Party will come when they’re given the power to reverse this travesty. If it fails that test, I will renounce my membership in it and declare myself an Independent, as should anyone who cares about justice in our society.

Once it is repealed, the House Judiciary Committee should add its drafting and passage to the catalogue of crimes already compiled by Rep. John Conyers and begin immediate investigations into the crimes of the administration and draw up bills of impeachment.

The Bush administration has killed thousands of people under false pretenses. He has looted the treasury, rendered the government a mere husk that can do nothing to protect or enrich its people’s lives, he has broken international law, engaged in torture, rendition, and pre-emptive war–this man needs to be put out of office and handed over to the International Criminal Court along with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, and anyone else with responsibility for the obcenity this nation has become.

We owe it to ourselves. We owe it to the world.

except the Dems have already pledged not to conduct investigations. yes, all of this sucks exactly that badly. i can count votes as well as karl rove can, and the Dems should have been able to sustain a filibuster. the fact that they couldn’t is not good. its so not good that its absolutely awful.

Our country just died today. Our democracy is dead.
the bill passed. 65 yeas.

This nation is so deeply and evenly divided, it won’t be long now before we fall. Aren’t we all Americans? Don’t you see the manipulation on the part of both parties to retain their power and wealth? Both parties are trampling all over us, and you are all so blinded by hate (much like the Republicans were blinded by their hate for the Clintons) you’re enabling them to use you to hold onto, or reclaim, power. No Democracy has ever succeeded for much longer than 200 years. (We are a Republic, btw…and therein, hopefully, lies the difference.) Unless, of course, we move to Socialism, at which point, I’m outa here.

Thanks

waterboard Warner, manacle McCain and Geneva gutting Graham

you have just put a dager into the heart of America. I am ashamed to call myself an American. Your actions have handed Osama a very big victory.

I am crying for my country as I write. How could we have come to a place where the majority party does not believe in our Constitution and a sizeable part of the opposition party doesn’t either? If the Senate Dems didn’t think Habeas was worth a filibuster, why should we bother to vote for them, much less give them money? It’s time to leave, guys. Only two countries in the world have near unanimity that torture is wrong under any circumstances: Spain and South Korea.

I’m all for working for the Dems to take the House and Senate. I’m working on campaigns right now.

But these Repubs are thugs. And they proved today that they don’t respect the Constitution. So what makes us think that they’ll allow “us” to vote “them” out. I’m not talking about Diebold. I’m talking about the Executive Branch declaring some faux emergency and disbanding Congress.

Hell, they already tried to do this once—that’s what the Anthrax attack was about. Hastert closed down the House, Daschle refused to close down the Senate. So Hastert was forced to open up the House.

I hope we win big in November. But that ain’t going to end our Constitutional crisis. These thugs have no intention of going quietly or giving up power. And they don’t respect the rule of law.

Get ready for some very difficult times.

FYI the photographer’s last name is spelled (Ron) Edmonds
He is a pulitzer prize winning photog in DC. He has had some outstanding awful photos of bushco. Watch his work it catches the essence of the evil group.

the repubs are going to steal the election like they have done in the past few. Our country is no more. better start brushing up on your bible or you may be taken as a heathen enemy combatant and tortured until 2 2=5. i am so ashamed of what we become and we are powerless.

“Parties are… censors of the conduct of each other, and useful watchmen for the public. Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties:
1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes.
2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise, depository of the public interests.
In every country these two parties exist, and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. Call them, therefore,… Whigs and Tories, Republicans and Federalists, Aristocrats and Democrats, or by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still, and pursue the same object.”

– Thomas Jefferson

to bad there are no #2’s in this country