(Sheldon prepared this piece in conjunction with his coauthor, John Stauber. The video for their most recent book, "The Best War Ever," is above. Please welcome them both back to FDL. — Pach)
The Bush administration may be squirming over the now-public conclusions of a recently-leaked National Intelligence Estimate. What "Trends in Global Terrorism" really shows, though, is that America’s 16 intelligence agencies are belatedly reaching a conclusion that should have been obvious years ago. The war in Iraq is breeding more terrorism, rather than less.
It is worth pointing out that some people – ourselves included – have been warning for years that this would happen. We predicted this outcome in our 2003 book, Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush’s War on Iraq. We finished writing it in May of that year, the same month that Bush giving his now-embarrassing "Mission Accomplished" speech aboard the U.S.S. Lincoln, at a time when opinion polls showed that a majority of Americans still supported the war. While others were cheering Bush’s seemingly awesome victory, we ended our book by warning that America was "fighting the war on terror against the wrong enemies, in the wrong places, with the wrong weapons" and by quoting the words of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak – a U.S. ally – who warned that the war in Iraq would spawn "100 bin Ladens."
We also quoted the analysis of Prince Moulay Hicham Ben Abdallah of Morocco – who considers himself a friend of the United States and who has campaigned for democratic reform in his own country and the Muslim world. "The vast majority of Muslims do not share the tactical or strategic vision, or the interpretation of Islam promoted by these new currents of jihad fundamentalism," Hicham said in a September 2002 talk at Princeton University. "Most Muslims want to live in peace and dignity alongside their neighbors of all faiths." He added, however,
Unfortunately, … it is hard to avoid the perception that the US is using the "war on terror" as an opportunity to embark on a kind of neo-imperialist project, and that some in the US would not be unhappy to engage in a "clash of civilizations" with the violent jihadists, as well as with anyone in the Muslim world who is not sufficiently submissive to their will. In the Muslim world, this only seems to corroborate the vision of the global jihadists, strengthening their appeal at the expense of more moderate – including moderate fundamentalist – voices.
Perhaps some American strategists now think it will be easy to roll over these "stirred-up" Muslims with military force alone. But without a sophisticated concurrent political, diplomatic and especially ideological strategy – one that distinguishes and isolates the new jihad movement from the Muslim world in general – any military offensive will only exacerbate the polarization between America and the Islamic world. It will lead to upheavals throughout the Muslim world, in which democratic constituencies will find it even more difficult to mobilize, and will increase the probability of prolonged bloody conflicts – whether on the scale of retail terrorism or of wars between states.
Those warnings, issued before the Bush administration recklessly invaded and occupied Iraq, are now finding fulfillment in the NIE’s now-declassified assessment that "New jihadist networks and cells, with anti-American agendas, are increasingly likely to emerge. The confluence of shared purpose and dispersed actors will make it harder to find and undermine jihadist groups. … We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives."
The Bush administration’s original rationale for war, of course, was that invading Iraq would calm the Middle East and thereby eliminate terrorists. Instead, the occupation of Iraq provided a staging-ground for what have now become daily terrorist attacks against U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians alike. Worse still, it has become a place where terrorists are developing skills and contacts that they will likely use to attack other targets in places such as Europe and the United States.
Remarkably, the Bush administration has attempted to offer these attacks as signs of progress in the war on terror. "We’re fighting them in Iraq so that we can defeat them abroad, so we don’t have to fight them here at home," declared Bush spokesman Scott McClellan – an argument that prompted some supporters of the war to begin describing Iraq as "carefully hung flypaper" where terrorists could be lured, trapped, and disposed of. Journalist Joshua Micah Marshall, however, offered a different metaphor, arguing that the "flypaper" theory should really be called the "dirty hospital" approach to fighting terror: "By creating a dirty hospital, we’re going to create a place where we can fight the germs on our terms." In reality, of course, creating a dirty hospital just provides a place where more germs can breed, and turning Iraq into a hotbed of terrorism has merely provided an opportunity for terrorists to meet, multiply, and practice their craft on live targets.
Consider, for example, the town of Salman Pak, south of Baghdad. During the propaganda runup to war with Iraq, supporters of the war claimed that Iraq was training terrorists at a military facility near the town of Salman Pak. Those claims were based on outright lies (which John and I dissect in our new book, The Best War Ever: Lies, Damned Lies and the War in Iraq. A review of the evidence by the Senate Intelligence Committee of the United States has acknowledged that those reports were unfounded. Thanks to the war, however, Salman Pak has subsequently become a terrorist hotbed. By February 2005, the Washington Post’s Anthony Shadid reported that "Salman Pak is on the eastern edge of a region Iraqis have dubbed the ‘triangle of death,’ parts of which are so dangerous that many Iraqis are reluctant to travel its roads. Checkpoints manned by insurgents have sprung up along some of the region’s highways as well as in such cities as Mahmudiyah and Latifiyah that have occasionally fallen under the sway of gunmen." Sectarian conflicts between Shi’ite and Sunni Muslims turned the area into what Agence Press France called "Iraq’s new hotspot where a motley army of Wahhabists, Saddamists and criminals are imposing their bloody rule. … Insurgents carry out almost daily car bomb and suicide attacks against the country’s security forces." According to the head of Iraqi intelligence, Salman Pak had become "a guerrillas’ fiefdom." Later that year, U.S.-backed Shi’ite forces managed to take control of the town, using a combination of military force and interrogation techniques that included torture and beatings – further inflaming fear and resentment among the town’s majority Sunni population and creating conditions in which more terrorist "germs" are likely to breed.
This outcome is precisely what opponents of the war warned about from the start, including Coleen Rowley, the FBI whistleblower who was named Time magazine’s 2002 "Person of the Year" after she exposed errors within the agency that might have allowed the 9/11 terrorists to carry out their plan. In a subsequent open letter to FBI director Robert Mueller, Rowley warned in March 2003 that invading Iraq would, "in all likelihood, bring an exponential increase in the terrorist threat to the U.S., both at home and abroad." Lots of other people were making similar predictions back then, as even the conservative National Review admitted at the time (while also calling Rowley "a fool").
Statistical evidence providing the correctness of these warnings has been available for years, even prior to the recent National Intelligence Estimate. Each year since 1985, the U.S. Department of State has been required to publish an annual report, titled Patterns of Global Terrorism, which tracks countries and groups involved in international terrorism. The 2004 edition of Patterns of Global Terrorism tallied attacks for 2003 (the first year of the war in Iraq). "You will find in these pages clear evidence that we are prevailing in the fight," declared Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage at the news conference announcing its release. Speaking at the same news conference, J. Cofer Black, the State Department Coordinator for Counter-terrorism, said the report showed "a slight decrease" from the number of terrorist attacks that occurred the previous year. That would be good news, of course – if it were true. In fact, the report was riddled with what State Department officials would later admit were administrative errors. As a result of those errors, the report undercounted by more than half the number of people killed and wounded – 625 deaths instead of 307 as originally reported, and 3,646 people injured. After correcting the mistakes, it turns out that 2003 saw 175 significant terrorist attacks (defined as attacks in which lives are lost or there is injury and property damage of more than $10,000) – the largest number of significant terrorist attacks since 1982.
The following year, the numbers were even worse – significant terrorist attacks, nearly four times the amount of the previous year’s embarrassment, with 1,907 people killed and 9,300 wounded – roughly a tripling of the previous year’s casualty toll. Iraq alone saw 198 attacks that year – nearly the worldwide total for 2003 – but even if all of those attacks were omitted, the number of terrorist attacks in the rest of the world were still more than double the all-time record. (So much for the "flypaper" theory.) The numbers were so bad that the Bush administration decided not to publish Patterns of Global Terrorism at all in 2005. In its place, the State Department created a new report, Country Reports on Terrorism, which omitted the statistical information provided in the previous reports. In a State Department briefing, spokesman Richard Boucher said the numbers would be released someday, but "I don’t know when."
It should be noted, moreover, that the 651 terrorist attacks tallied for 2004 did not include attacks on U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq, or even attacks on Iraqi civilians by other Iraqis. The long-standing US definition of international terrorism, used by Patterns of Global Terrorism, defined it as violent acts against non-combatants, and it has to involve the territory or citizens of more than one country. (Timothy McVeigh’s 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City would also not fit this definition of terrorism.) The National Counterterrorism Center, a government agency created by President Bush in 2004, has compiled a separate report that does include other incidents not previously classed as terrorism (although attacks on soldiers are still excluded). Using this more inclusive definition, the number of terrorist incidents in 2004 would be 3,192.
The National Counterterrorism Center’s new database on terrorism was announced publicly in July 2005. That same month, a series of coordinated bombings hit London’s subways and a bus during rush hour, killing 56 people and injuring 700 – the deadliest single act of terrorism in the United Kingdom since the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. The terrorists, claiming affiliation with Al Qaeda, released a statement calling the attack "revenge against the British Zionist crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan." It was the second act of Al Qaeda violence against a European nation providing military support to the war in Iraq. The previous attack, a series of coordinated bombings against commuter trains in Madrid, killed 192 people and wounded 2,050 and triggered the electoral defeat of Spain’s ruling party.
These events came as no surprise to Michael Scheuer, the former chief of the CIA’s Bin Laden unit until his resignation shortly after Bush’s re-election in November 2004. Scheuer is the author of Through Our Enemies’ Eyes, a biography of Osama Bin Laden written in 2002. More recently, he is the author of Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror, in which he bluntly criticizes the war on Iraq:
There is nothing bin Laden could have hoped for more than the American invasion and occupation of Iraq. The U.S. invasion of Iraq is Osama bin Laden’s gift from America, the one he has long and ardently desired, but never realistically expected. Think of it: Iraq is the second holiest land in Islam; a place where Islam had been long suppressed by Saddam; where the Sunni minority long dominated and brutalized the Shia majority; where order was kept only by the Baathist barbarity that prevented a long overdue civil war; and where, in the wake of Saddam’s fall, the regional powers Iran and Saudi Arabia would intervene, at least clandestinely, to stop the creation of, respectively, a Sunni or Shia successor state. In short, Iraq without Saddam would obviously become what political scientists call a ‘failed state,’ a place bedeviled by its neighbors and – as in Afghanistan – a land where al Qaeda or al Qaeda-like organizations could thrive. Surely, thought bin Laden, the Americans would not want to create this kind of situation. It would be, if you will, like deliberately shooting yourself in the foot. …
In the end, something much like Christmas had come for bin Laden, and the gift he received from Washington will haunt, hurt, and hound Americans for years to come.
At a June 2005 Department of Defense briefing, not long after Vice President Dick Cheney declared that the insurgents in Iraq were "in their last throes," Lieutenant General James Conway noted that terrorist skills learned in Iraq were being transferred to Afghanistan, where it was "a little bit troubling" to see an increased use of improvised explosives devices (IEDs) due in part to "cross-pollination between the people in Iraq and Afghanistan."
Classified studies by the CIA and the State Department leaked to the press that same month. The studies showed that Iraq by then had become something it was not before the war began: "the prime training ground for foreign terrorists who could travel elsewhere across the globe and wreak havoc." In fact, reported the New York Times, one classified CIA assessment said "Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda’s early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat. … [T]he urban nature of the war in Iraq was helping combatants learn how to carry out assassinations, kidnappings, car bombings and other kinds of attacks that were never a staple of the fighting in Afghanistan during the anti-Soviet campaigns of the 1980’s."
The recent findings of the National Intelligence Estimate simply codify conclusions that responsible analysts and political leaders should have reached years ago. The lack of public debate about these realities up until now has needlessly prolonged the Bush administration’s failed military strategy, at a terrible price in lives lost and opportunities squandered.
Portions of this article are excerpted from the new book by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber, The Best War Ever: Lies, Damned Lies and the Mess in Iraq.
Related posts:
- Steele Decries Capturing, Prosecuting, Jailing Terrorists; Politicizing DOJ is A-OK
- Can Alleged Terrorists Get Fair Trials? The Case of Aafia Siddiqui
- The Terrorists Have Won
- David Kris: Our Only Military Commission Convictions May be Illegal
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation





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FITZ!
It amazes me that such a silly little competition could lift my spirits. And it indicates to me just how low my spirits got today. Now, I’m just pissed.
Outstanding post. I’m extremely impressed with the thought and care that characterizes FDL.
Hiya! I still have to donate to Angie Paccione – Act Blue (post below). Be back soon!
Wow. Great Post.
FDL = Center of the Universe
No offense Evil One.
Does anyone find it odd that Osama bin Laden is not wanted by the FBI for having anything to do with 9/11?
Everythingseemssoneat @ 6
Huh? You have linky?
Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber are true heroes, and if you’ve not bought and read their new book, The Best War Ever (link above), please do. All author proceeds go back into their Center for Media and Democracy, so they can continue all their good work. Check them out at http://www.prwatch.org.
Jennifer Nix @ 8
yep… national treasures – the both of them.
What I find troubling is that when the Al Qaeda types are finally pushed out of Iraq, Afghanistan is one of the more likely places for them to go. It has a weak government, divided security responsibilities, and a largely-unguarded border with Pakistan, another hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism.
Bill @ 3
I don’t know if I share your enthusiasm… if this is the standard that Jane and Christy come to expect from their guest posters, I’m in deep trouble. :)
Thanks, Sheldon and John, for such intimidatingly good work.
Usually don’t do this but this is my take on the NIE from a comment earlier today.
Bush released 3 pages out of 9 of the Key Judgments of the 30 page April 2006 NIE entitled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States”. While this is a fragment of a fragment, it is nevertheless a very strange document.
About the central contention that the Iraq war is making terrorism worse:
First, the document uses preferentially the term “jihadist” which appears to have up to 5 different meanings: al Qaeda, terrorist, Iraqi insurgent, anyone who self-identifies as a jihadist, or any militant or extreme Moslem. Sloppy is a nice word for this kind of conflation.
Second, while the style of this passage could best be described as turgid, it is clear that Iraq creating a new generation of terrorists is probably not a good thing. And while I guess it would be nice if the perceived terrorists leaving Iraq were perceived by their perceivers to have perceivably failed, the thought could have been more succinctly expressed by the adage “If wishes were horses then beggars would ride.” The last sentence which is key could also use a bit of clarification. Translated from the bureaucratese it reads: Given current conditions, terrorism stemming from the American invasion of Iraq will grow for the foreseeable future.
Third if you were wondering what the underlying factors mentioned above were. They are:
Just another wild ass guess here but I’m thinking our involvement in the first three go far in explaining the fourth, and why we are unlikely to make any headway anytime soon.
But the NIE reports that the “jihadists” or GIBH have their own weaknesses:
I’m thinking the preparers of the NIE decided if we have 4 weaknesses then the GIBH should have 4 too. All of these points are, to say the least, problematic.
If the GIBH are banking on “the continuation of Muslim-related conflicts,” then this may prove their Achilles heel because outside of conflicts involving Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan and tensions with Iran, Sudan, and Somalia I just don’t see any.
As for the “limited appeal of the jihadists’ radical ideology,” I must agree except for maybe Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, and I suppose Egypt and Syria if the Moslem Brotherhood was ever allowed to compete in an open election. Thank goodness we don’t have to include Iraq and Iran in this group because they are majority Shia and the jihadi shtik is mostly a Sunni thing.
Next point: let’s face it we have made it much harder with our cowboy diplomacy for voices of moderation in the Muslim world to speak up and have any credibility.
The last point has some validity but has to be taken with a large grain of salt. The Algerians, Lebanese and Afghanis have all had long and bloody civil conflicts. The Algerian one ended only a couple of years ago and was especially brutal. The Afghani one is ongoing. The Iraq-Iran war had about a million dead. And, of course, there is Darfur. So the idea of Moslem on Moslem violence is not exactly unheard of and reaction to it is let’s just say variable.
Two other minor points caught my attention. One was a call for democratic reform which would stabilize countries and be used by GIBH to destabilize them. The second was that Syria and Iran were labeled the chief sponsors of state terrorism. This seems terribly unfair to the Saudis (the chief financiers of terrorism and religious extremism and the home of 15 of the 19 911 hijackers) and the Pakistanis (the creators and continuing supporters of the Taliban) who have done so much to earn this designation.
* GIBH by the way is Guys in Black Hats. There is no reason for me to use it but then there was no point in the NIE using the jihadist terminology either.
Swopa @ 11
Don’t worry, Swopa. I’m still slinging swill around here.
Oh, Swopa. Don’t damn yourself with faint praise. I love to see your posts and comments here. If everyone had to feel that their particular comment had to live up to the best that they could remember, then I, for one, wouldn’t even be commenting!
Our country and government is very much in danger of becoming politically ruled by so called Christians. Contrary to the Constitution’s prohibition against such activity, more and more churches are agitating to turn this into a “Christian nation”. Fully 2/3 of the American people describe themselves as Christian, and one-third of the American people attend church at least once a week. If the Republicans are successful this fall and in 2008 we probably will become a government ruled by theological decree. This is bothersome. The implications of such a scenario if it were to become reality would be horribly dreadful. And there is no more serious business for the Bush-base and those two-thirds of the American people who label themselves ‘Christian’ than electing a Christian based theological government. Make no mistake about it.
Speaking of which, Scarborough covering Jesus Kamp now…
thank you for the post Sheldon. Our new torture legislation and our gutting of the Geneva Conventions, habeas corpus and the War Crimes Act is not going to make us one bit safer, either.
Going back off topic here: You can check and see if your representative represented you or not.
27-Sep-2006
H R 6166 Military Commissions Act aka The Torture and Kangaroo Courts Act
Passed 253-168 with 12 Not Voting
Democrats who voted for: 34
Andrews________Herseth
Barrow_________ Higgins
Bean ___________Holden
Bishop (GA) _____Marshall
Boren___________Matheson
Boswell_________ McIntyre
Boyd____________Melancon
Brown (OH) ______Michaud
Chandler_________ Moore (KS)
Cramer___________Peterson (MN)
Cuellar___________Pomeroy
Davis (AL) _______Ross
Davis (TN) _______Salazar
Edwards_________Scott (GA)
Etheridge________Spratt
Ford____________Tanner
Gordon_________ Taylor (MS)
Republicans who voted against: 7
Bartlett (MD)
Gilchrest
Jones (NC)
LaTourette
Leach
Moran (KS)
Paul
Not Voting: 12
Castle____________ Lewis (GA)
Cleaver___________Meehan
Davis (FL) ________Millender-McDonald
Davis, Tom________Ney
Jackson-Lee (TX) __Radanovich
Keller____________Strickland
And my last gratuitous OT of the evening (I promise) Crosses fingers.
Your daily gas and oil prices:
Average price for regular gasoline 9/27/06 in 50 states and DC
$3.00 plus 1 state
$2.90 plus 1 state
$2.80 plus 0 states
$2.70 plus 6 states
$2.60 plus 2 states
$2.50 plus 6 states
$2.40 plus 5 states
$2.30 plus 8 states
$2.20 plus 10 states
$2.10 plus 11 states
$2.00 plus 1 state
Average national price: $2.356, down $.012 from yesterday
Down 45.7 cents from same time last year.
Highest recorded national average price: $3.057 9/5/2005
Highest average price: Hawaii $3.146
Lowest average price: Missouri $2.064
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp
Nymex Crude Future $62.92, up $1.10
Dated Brent Spot $61.02, up $2.30
WTI Cushing Spot $62.96, up $2.01
Gas declines in its irrational way and while oil is substantially up today it still is just a fluctuation in the $60-65 range after a testing of the $60 mark.
Wonderful post.
Instead of even a dirty hospital, I think in terms of a plane laden with germ filled air. The germs are going everywhere – not even staying in the ME.
Okla Kid – redo those numbers. ;)
And there is no more serious business for the Bush-base and those two-thirds of the American people who label themselves ‘Christian’ than electing a Christian based theological government.
I don’t think you will find many mainstream protestant churches that want that at all and I’m one of those 2/3 that have the Christian “label” – I don’t want that.
[OT - from the ealier thread - I just meant bow out of the conversation bc I was very angry; I wasn’t shooting for a Charlie Chaplin, dejected tromp down a dusty lane moment. Sorry if it sounded more Drama Queen than I meant it. I just don’t believe you get any better government than you demand and if we wring hands over how the Dems are constantly appeasing Republicans bc they are so scared of losing - we set that tone and buy that ticket for them when we roll over to appease the Dems on the most basic of issues - bc we are afraid of having no one. Sometimes you have to be willing to eat your lunch all by yourself in my book, but YMMV]
Doesn’t the Christian Bible have something to say about ‘false gods’? Cardboard cut-outs of Bush, indeed.
It’s not about debate. It’s about something else entirely. It’s about becoming princes, about installing kings.
I knew we were going to attack Iraq, I mean the first time not the second, maybe before our government knew itself. I knew it was going to happen, I knew why, I knew how, and I knew it was going to mean the end of our country as We The People considered it. The Berlin Wall was going to fall, and a friend of mine we’ll call Cassandra was staying with me in Switzerland waiting for it to start, who while lolling contentedly on my bed asked me charmingly out of the Blue, “So…who’s the Next Enemy?”
It was the late 1980s, and a political invention called a Cold War was about to end. Obviously a number of assumptions buttressed Cassandra’s question, but I believe it was an honest one. I thought about it, like someone whose greatest Christmas wish at 3 years old was an M4A1 model Sherman Tank could think about it, a real, fully operational Sherman Tank with fuel and a full load of munitions ready to go. (Santa didn’t even try to explain repeated refusals.) I was young, and all the study of battles and wars and their echoes and my wish for that tank drove me onwards, up to the professors with their policy papers, their briefs and nicotine-stained think-”tanks” not so far removed from the hobbyists, cadets, and generals playing their war games, to watching the nations dance in their strange interplays, right up to the edge of that tottering Wall. I had fresh command of all that material. So I knew the victory party would prove too anti-climactic for the victors to handle it. They would feel entitled to more. A world more.
There would be no cheering parade for all their long, mostly quiet efforts, and precious few medals, none for the hidden heroism of those who most deserved it. The credit would go to the wrong people, as it often does. A lot of Cold Warriors were about to be out of work. Wall Street couldn’t absorb them all, and the bad elements had already completed co-opting the drug trade after Vietnam. But most importantly for this kind of conflict, the delicious sense of danger was gone, the primum mobile lost, the romances and adventures it fueled ending even if budgets hadn’t been cut yet. Nothing worse for a warrior to face than the freedom of grey purposeless boredom. No more open mistress in the China House for Poppy. Nothing left but to become President, that half-thanked task. How to keep the Great Game going?
And then I really, really thought, drawing on all the toxins of an intellectually misspent childhood: Money…Muslims…Oil…Crusades…Arabian Nights..Iraq. Yes, yes…Iraq. Perfect! The Jewel of Baghdad. Who would care about Saddam Hussein? He’s the perfect villain. We’ve only propped him up so we could stalemate and humiliate Iran in the bloodiest battles since World War Two. That’s the answer: betray Saddam, and you can rule the Mid-East from the inside out, then rule the whole world with its oil. Rule, America, Rule.
Only the people whose thoughts I felt didn’t want the Old America. They desired an older, more primal, most primate thing: to rule as princes and kings. In the substratum of their desire was the same harem I saw when I was a little, sexually awakening boy day-dreaming of a palace underground, with a secure and hidden hatch which locked from the inside, where I would take the women of every nation dressed in various versions of the costume Barbara Eden wore in ‘I Dream of Jeannie’ and show them wonders in exchange for theirs. You might say the harem itself was like a Sherman Tank, only much more spacious, luxurious, and well-padded. A harem and Baghdad. I saw the men who had these desires in my mind’s eye, and when they finally arrived, I knew them. And there wasn’t a damned thing I could do to stop them. Hell. I couldn’t even get anyone to believe what they were going to do. People still don’t believe what they’re doing right now.
The bright side? They’re failing, they have horrible taste in women, and we’re building a new country right under their noses. Sorry for the length of this post, I had to work that one off on “America Writes Torture Into Law Day.”
Please forgive what must sound like a stupid question – but if the Senate passes one version of a bill and the House another version, which one is the law?
My excuse for this question is that I am a Canadian!
I read a very thought provoking article today:
more here:
http://www.informationclearing…..e15098.htm
Hugh @ 17
I called my family in Meehan’s district and told them he hadn’t bothered to vote against torture.
He’ll get some calls. Way too late. How can anyone not bother to vote against torture?
shoogarp- I read it on the backpages of the Washington Post of all places. They tried to downplay it like it wasn’t a big deal.
Sherrod Brown and Harold Ford voted FOR torture and indefinite detention today?
do i have that right? what are we doing supporting them for a senate seat?
please tell me i have it wrong!
Did Shays (R) CT vote for the bill? I don’t even need to ask about Nancy Johnson.
Mary,
Just wanted to say I agree with you completely on the habeas corpus issue. A legal process without habeas is a lot like a building without doors. It doesn’t matter how beautiful an edifice it is. If you can’t get in, it’s a waste of time and space.
Fern @ 22
The bill goes to committee for reconciliation & then returns to the respective house for a re-vote except for the Budget Reduction Bill which was reconciled but NEVER voted on again then signed by Bush…
I am one of those two-thirds also. The numbers I mention come from an article I read this am. Could perhaps find the article if you’d like. I was looking at this article while my physics students were working on an assingnment, so no promises. Frankly, I was a bit surprised at the #’s myself.
details of the roll call vote for hr 6166 – here
details of the bill – here
Pach — thanks for posting this. I don’t know if it’s too late to fix, but there are a couple of passages in this post that ought to be set off in block quotes. The first is the quotation from Moulay Hicham of Morocco. The quotation from his speech is the passage which reads as follows:
The other quotation, from Michael Scheuer, is the following:
I meant to mark those passages as quotations before sending this, but unfortunately forgot. (Can I blame it on our book tour? John is is California right now, and I’m in Washington, DC — the epicenter of disaster.)
Blogwhoring…. ESPN did NOT fake audio from someone who was there:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..175136/951
MarcLord– beautifully written and spot on post.
In my family, we have always talked a lot about politics and foreign policy. Most of us predicted this as well. So damned tragic and evil.
It’s also why I was against both wars.
you say
April Glaspie, all of it… It was so clear ;(
This is part of the Denver
Post editorial today:
“The final days of a fruitless Congress can be the most dangerous as members weigh bad legislation in order to show voters that they don’t deserve a “do nothing” label. We are tempted to invoke Oliver Cromwell’s speech in 1653 to what is known in British history as the Rump Parliament. He told the politicians: “You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately. … Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”
More than 353 years later, the 109th Congress should consider such advice.”
Good Advice but a Bad GOP Congress!
dab from CT @ 27
Yes and you are right about Johnson as well.
“America’s 16 intelligence agencies are belatedly reaching a conclusion that should have been obvious years ago. The war in Iraq is breeding more terrorism, rather than less.”
The CIA came out in the fall 2002 or early 2003 that invading Iraq would likely incite increased terrorism.
There is nothing new that wasn’t known prior to the invasion: the likely outcome, the lack of post invasion planning, the debunking of Niger claims, aluminum tubes, the drones, the al qeada connection, the doubts about WMDs, all of it debunked before invasion. But with a compliant corporate media clapping ever louder for the bushliar-criminal regime’s lies and decpetions, none of registered with the majority of Americans.
.
AZ Matt @ 35
John Dean called it “The Witching Hour for Congress” and to fight anything they might push through. Heard him at the ACLU Townhall here on the topic of NSA spying but discussed this at length that night.
angie @ 16
deja-vu all over again… my feelings about the torture/kangaroo court vote is quite similar to the iraq war vote 4 years ago…
This is IMMORAL.
Real people (Americans and others) are going to suffer real harm.
Our nation’s security is going to suffer for it.
The world will be less safe.
and in the long run this is not going to be good for the country or the democratic party.
Great post. Thank you.
I remember the “body count” press releases during the Vietnam conflict and the use of these figures by the Nixon admin to back up our “progress” in the war, and how we marveled not only at the stupidity of this as a measurement for achievement but also the absolute idiocy at using the numbers of killed soldiers as a aim in itself. There turned out to be no way to use territorial boundries as a parameter to measure progress, so we got numbers of killed enemy—in a place where there were lots of extra bodies to throw back into the fight, as well as a passionate nationalistic cause to serve.
Now it would seem the same broken thought process is in play. Breed more “insurgents” through our violent actions against their people, culture, religion, and country, then kill a bunch and at the same time suffer more attacks, then proclaim our progress because of these results.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
And in another parallel with Vietnam, in this post Sheldon and John say
Yeah, just like our “clash of civilizations” against communism in the 60’s. The cold war became a religion and all efforts to thwart its presence or stop any further spread of socialism or communism became part of a holy war.
It is beyond me how a nation, so smart in so many ways, can be so incredibly stupid…again. (Unless, of course, you factor in the incredible war machine profits to be made, as well as the near-totalitarian power a holy war like this can generate. But that would be so cynical to think that our leadership would play us like so many rodents to get their agenda of greed fulfilled, wouldn’t it?)
angie,
well then, it sounds like you have a pretty dang cool family! Mine just assumed I needed to go to college. ;-)
Every empire has had its own signature way of ending. This one is doing them all at the same time.
Everythingseemssoneat @
25
He’s on the FBI’s most wanted page
MarcLord – thanks for your post which I found fascinating. I remember people standing on the Berlin Wall ripping off chunks – Leonard Bernstein conducting an all German orchestra performing Beethoven’s Symphony No 9. And amidst the euphoria an underlying discussion about what the defense industry and the Cold Warriers would do, i.e. what would the next “boogie man” be.
Sheldon Rampton @ 32
hi sheldon – many thanks for everything you’ve been doing to open my eyes.
shooogarp @
7
It is true. I’ve read it a few different times
OT – JohnA @ C&L interviewed Kristen Breitweiser (Jersey Girl) for her book ‘Wake Up Call’
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..e-up-call/
*MP3 and full transcript.
If you haven’t seen the movie – (Complete 1h25m) – 9/11 : Press for Truth
Okla Kiddo – I’m not surprised that 2/3 call themselves Christian (it’s a term that covers a lot of ground and a lot of people use it from habit more than conviction) but I truly don’t think that for ALL of those 2/3 there is no more serious business than building a Christian theocracy govt. That was what I meant.
******
Thanks Hugh, you said it with more elegance than I could have mustered right now. I’m pissed and sad and disgusted and concerned that the full sweep of this has only been remotely considered by a very few.
I think there may be this or that legal argument against the legislation, but none of that gets you past the fact that the House of Representatives and Senate of the US Congress don’t care about lifetime detention and torture of innocent people – much less the torture of terrorists, which is just as ugly in its effects on our country.
Fern @ 22
Neither, a joint committee irons out the differences (while getting stoned).
I don’t get it with Sherrod Brown (isn’t he also a professor?) Just contributed to him yesterday with Act Blue. To vote for this bill is indeed “violence to the Constitution.” He should be bombarded with questions. Maybe we should reconsider.
Future NIEs will look at:
the possibilities that there may be countries beyond our northern and southern borders
discuss whether Germany is an emerging threat and what the Kaiser may be up to
the threat of radical Islam and the Barbary pirates
and China: Empire or what you eat on?
I feel like we are trying to talk rationally with irrational people. Like Bush and Cheney and the rest of them are still trying to convince us the world is flat, and even in the face of mounting evidence that the world is round, they are going to keep at it until we either give up or agree. They are willing to sacrifice the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in order to avoid admitting they’re wrong?
I am beginning to think that the more evidence there is that they are dangerously wrong, the more they will up the stakes, the more they will try to control, the more they will try to scare the American people.
Where does it end? That’s the part that scares me. When will it first be whispered or leaked anonymously that the administration is considering applying these newly “legal” powers domestically? How far are they willing to go to silence the growing chorus of dissent?
I’d start referring to the Bush administration as The Flat Earth Society, but that seems too innocuous for what they really are.
MarcLord @ 40
That is exactly how I feel about this. And yes, I do have a very dang cool family with lots of “spirited” discussions! Not nearly the same level of debate now though, we mostly just agree about the unspeakable horror we are witnessing and try like heck to change our government.
I am beginning to think that the more evidence there is that they are dangerously wrong, the more they will up the stakes, the more they will try to control, the more they will try to scare the American people.
I think you can take that to the bank, Anne. Will it still be an “October Surprise” if no-one’s actually surprised?
Oklahoma kiddo @
20
Funny you should mention that. Before the 2004 election, a popular video game/CD/DVD shop in the mall had a lifesize cardboard cutout of Bush, but none of Kerry.
I asked, “Where’s John Kerry here? I don’t want to have to look at that face any more.” They assured me it was on order. One manager told me it was so funny to watch the little old ladies come by and spit on George Bush.
And this is Ohio, semi-rural area.
This is an excellent post. Once Pach fixes the quotes, as Sheldon requested at 32, I’m off to spotlight to editorial boards. Hope others are doing the same. Can others cover “political” and “pentagon” and “anchors” and other select groupings?
Mary. So glad to see you back. I share your dismay. Please tell imman not to do the yellow tie thing.
The quotes are fixed. Please refresh your page.
katymine @ 38
I would call it the Whacko Hour!! And speaking of whackos, Roger Ailes of Fox has opened his mouth(off of the AP):
“Fox News chief Roger Ailes says former President Clinton’s response to Chris Wallace’s question about going after Osama bin Laden represents “an assault on all journalists.”
Ailes said Clinton had a “wild overreaction” in the interview, broadcast on “Fox News Sunday.” Hundreds of thousands of people subsequently watched clips over the Internet, with Fox foes rallying behind Clinton.
“If you can’t sit there and answer a question from a professional, mild-mannered, respectful reporter like Chris Wallace, then the hatred for journalists is showing,” Ailes said in an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday. “All journalists need to raise their eyebrows and say, `hold on a second.’”
Poor picked on Fox! Ailes needs cheese with his whine.
Anne, a little conspiracy theorist, but if you listened to Loose Change, you might occasionally wonder where the folks on the plane that went down PA (ditto the Pentagon “plane” people) were taken after they were removed from the plane. Remember those detention centers?
Anne —
Or “scorched earth”
Alison @
24
Huh. Rep. Jim Davis is the Florida democratic gubernatorial nominee, running against the GOP Neofascist tough-on-crime attorney general, Charlie Crist. Ducked out on a vote. Imagine that. I think it’s all part of a carefully crafted Democratic strategy of standing for nothing, so you can’t be accused of standing for something. Way to go, Jim! That’s exactly the kind of principled unprincipleness that launched Dukakis into the White House! Voters are nothing if not enamoured of spinelessness.
Maybe in 2008 we can nominate some sort of octopus or sea slug for President.
BTW–the Brown of Ohio–was that Sherrod Brown?
every Congressman who voted for this bill today should have a hooded victim standing on a box outside is home office with calls placed to the local media tomorrow…and a spokesperson to explain this.
I cannot believe that the national tv broadcast news (as far as I can tell) has not covered this! we need to shame these congresscritters and let that be a warning to the Senators who have not yet voted…
I am just checking in to say that I just spoke to John Stauber, who asked me to give you all his regards. He’s about to give a speech in Berkeley, and then I’m joining him tonight in North Beach, at the new Beat Museum, as we’re both huge Beatnik wanna-bes. Not sure if Sheldon is in the comments now, but he’s also on the book tour and might not be online. But I know that both appreciate all your thoughts here and will check in with them later. I’m…sorry…on the road now. Buona notte e ciao!
Jen– have fun! Are you wearing your Choo’s?
scarecrow @ 58
scorched earth
Winner take all
Win above principles
Party above Country, the teaching of Christ and rights of humanity
In HR 6166 voted on today, there is an ambiguity about how the act applies to American citizens. The definitions don’t preclude an American from being labeled an unlawful enemy combatant but a following paragraph seems to preclude the act’s extension to them.
And
So if you are an alien and an unlawful combatant, this act’s for you:
But my question is if you are an American citizen and you are labeled an unlawful enemy combatant, what happens to you? Either this act should explicitly state that Americans can not be classified as unlawful enemy combatants or should tell us what it intends to do with those Americans who are so classified.
angie @ 62
angie @ 62
Actually, no. For this crowd, my Tuscan cowboy boots, and the old leather motorcycle jacket…
kewl!
AZ Matt @
56
Olberman replied: “Nonsense. That was correcting an error. Send me anthrax was an assault on journalists.”
Or words, more or less to that effect.
Jen Nix @
61
Get out onto Sproul Plaza and raise some hell!
Great article by Thom Hartman – explaining how Republicans and Dems just handed over Stalinist powers to Bush.
At least formally – by failure to find a voice over the illegal immoral detentions and torture and the damned fiasco that passes for a “use of military force” they de facto acquiesced a long time ago.
Let me get this straight. Contrary to scientific data, the Earth isn’t flat? Next it’ll be the heresy of global warming.
Margot @ 53
Interesting.
katymine @ 63
La cosa nostra
The Spanish Inquistion
The Keystone Kops
The Gang that couldn’t shoot straight
The Bush League
Cretinous creeps
The Wily Bunch
Dumb and Dumberer
The Immoral Minority
Wigwam @ 67
Good for KO!
I hope he keeps pounding away the next several weeks on Ailes, Bush and rest of the thugs! America got mugged today by the Congressional whackos! Where’s a cop when you need one?
Jen Nix wrote: “Not sure if Sheldon is in the comments now, but he’s also on the book tour and might not be online. But I know that both appreciate all your thoughts here and will check in with them later.”
Yes, I’m around, and thanks for everyone’s friendly comments. I did a bookstore appearance earlier this evening and am now back in my hotel room. I’ve been checking the comments here every so often, in between watching “Friends” and fearing for the soul of America.
I’m working on another article that I might want to post here, examining the history of Bushco and Pentagon promises of imminent troop reductions. Every month or two they seem to come out with a new “secret plan” that gets promptly leaked to the press, stating that things are going so well in Iraq that Rumsfeld or General Casey are planning drastic troop reductions in the near future. Of course, the reality is that this never happens.
If anyone here has some material that I ought to include, send it my way. You can either post it here or email it to me: sheldon AT prwatch.org.
Jen at 61
Ah, for the Dharma Bum days!
As for the post. It’s so easy now to look back and lament the torpor and silence of these last three years – some of the most frustrating during my visit here on your planet. I wonder if we’ll ever be able to figure out how it happened. I tend towards explanations that include the intense shock we all felt on 911. I agree that it has been a crazy time, a time of denial unequalled in my years – except for the segregation in the South of my childhood. I don’t think we were struck “dumb” as in retarded, I think we were struck “dumb” as in “in shock.” We seem to be seeing people wake up a bit, but there’s still a peculiar complacency that certainly seems psychotic in the face of all that’s happened.
Maybe, we’re the Beat Generation” as in “beaten”…
Wigwam @ 68
Savio’s ghost haunts the steps of Sproul Hall.
ahh. just back from attempting to feed Lord Baby. I think most of the spaghetti and yogurt is off of us now.
angie, I must confess to not knowing who April Glaspie is. Could you enlighten me in a wiki but not pedia way? (Thanks, by the way.)
Dab,
Ironically enough, I didn’t go to the Party when the Wall fell. Cassandra got a piece for me, though, a nice big blue one, and it’s sitting in my cabinet. Was working on something I thought terribly important at the time, and of course now I wish I’d gone. German euphoria can have a uniquely overpowering sense about it, though, and maybe I was content to watch it from a distance.
OldCoastie @
60
There was a thread a couple of days ago where the idea of postcards with that image, to send to Congressional reps, came up. Want me to send you a pdf of the image? There’s 4 to a page, more or less standard postcard size, print ‘em and cut ‘em out yourself. The version I have has the hooded person, and underneath it says “Yes, I approve of this” and “No, I dissaprove of this.” And there are little boxes next to the text that they can check.
My donation is for Marcy’s book. I still don’t understand how you can differentiate donations to fdl in general and Marcy’s book in particular.
From this side of the table they look identical.
Enlighten me?
I am doing this to move the thermometer.
Hope we can have a post office box soonest for those who must remain anonymous.
April Glaspie was the Amreican ambassador to Iraq who supposedly gave Saddam the greenlight for the invasion of Kuwait.
I think that once the Bush administration gets finished trying to convince us the earth is flat, they will have scorched it beyond repair. Just hope it’s not a nuclear scorch.
Isn’t April Glaspie the foreign policy genius Bush 1.0 appointed to be ambassador to Iraq? The one who told Saddam, right before the invasion of Kuwait that “the US had no opinion regarding Iraq’s territorial dispute with Kuwait”?
Jen Nix wrote:
I’m here. I did a bookstore even earlier tonight and am now back in my hotel room. Thanks everyone, for the kind comments.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 70
It sure looks flat. And there’s no global warming here in my air-conditioned bungalow. It’s quite pleasant, actually.
VG — did you ever get the scan of that Lieberman letter from the guy the other night?
Mary @
69
From the article, quote from Alexander Hamilton:
OT, anyone besides me getting two refresh comments boxes and then two little loading icons? I don’t think I drank kool aid tonight.
MarcLord– sorry I was away reading the great article that Mary linked to at 69. (Thanks Mary– gave me goosebumps). I see that Hugh has answered your question though. April sorta disappeared and has never spoken about any of it…
got the same thing here Old Sow, seeing double. LOL
Anne @ 81
They probably believe that the Earth is the Center and everything revolves around them in DC. Scientists today run the same risks with this administration as did Galileo in his day.
The administration WANTS WAR. If you have an external enemy, it makes domestic control much easier. We must unite and give up our money and our tiny little civil liberties and OUR CHILDREN to fight “the enemy” du jour. Boo! Scary! Shiny! Scary brown people. Did I say boo?
It’s an old story, and a sad one.
Staggering amounts of money to be made during wartime. I’m talking about you, the Kennedy family, and you, the Bush family.
The same sorry sordid characters who appeared in Iran-Contra are back again, urging us to start yet ANOTHER war of aggression. Yes evil Sembler, I’m talking about you. Not content to warp the lives of so many troubled teenagers, you want to
forge evidencepresent ideas leading to yet another war, with Iran? And this benefitsIsraelwhom, exactly?The administration is RUINING THE MILITARY. And you know what, THEY JUST DON’T CARE. I observe a lot of passion among the vets running for office, they see our military being DESTROYED and they care. Hope it’s enough.
FIGHT!! TAKE ACTION!! SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!!!
Hugh,
I’m not a lawyer. But I negotiate and write some really finely nuanced contracts between parties who often don’t trust each other.
(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant
That’s the money quote, because a co-belligerent is:
any State or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against a common enemy.
To me, this is thin sophistry worded so you can say this isn’t intended for use against US citizens, just aliens, and that habeus corpus isn’t really dead. Except it probably can be applied to US citizens who become unlawful combatants, and definitely to those who have engaged in any international communications with other such combatants. That would make them as legally subject to rendition as any alien, particularly if they had acted in concert with aliens.
This law is worded like a license to torture American Muslims. Like the old adage says: what countries do abroad comes home.
As long as we’re naming names, 2 Democrats voted against the Levin amendment today in the Senate to provide a substitute for Frist’s Military Commissions bill. The 2 pro-torture and kangaroo courts Senators are Landrieu of Louisiana and Nelson of Nebraska. Honorable mention goes to Lincoln Chafee who voted for. Who knows he might have voted for it even if he wasn’t in a tight race with a Democrat or if the vote had been close. Special dishonorable mention goes to Inouye of Hawaii, McCain of Arizona, and Snowe of Maine for not bothering to vote.
Sheldon – thank you for sharing your wisdom with us while juggling a book tour – those aren’t exactly vacations!
Digesting your post now … in between gasping in fury over the torture vote.
cleter @ 86
I was musing the other day about what would happen if next summer, everyone in the U.S. turned their ac on at the same time? I love my central air.
Redshift @
87
No, I didn’t, and I have been checking that email regularly. Frustrating!
oh…that April Glaspie. Thanks, guys, I forgot. She was just a minor character. Hope they haven’t killed her (j/k), she’s been awfully quiet lately.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 94
I imagine the Earth would get knocked out of it’s orbit, like in the Futurama episode where all the robots farted in unison. Hey, is it ok to use the word “fart” in a blog? I don’t want to cross any lines.
MarcLord #93,
As someone pointed out earlier today, “purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States” could mean anything from attending a demonstration to inadvertently giving money to an organization that was later “linked” however tangentially to a terrorist group.
dear lord that video is depressing. I heard one of the Bush supporters call Randi rhodes’ today. No matter what fact she countered his argument with, he came back with a Bushco talking point. It is soooo depressing.
i hope we are in the last throes of Bushcho’s coup, but my faith in my fellow Americans is failing.
cleter @ 99
The Decider thinks farting is appropriate pretty much anywhere. Oh wait, that doesn’t answer your question.
MarcLord @
76
I was there on New Years Eve 1989 at the Brandenburg Gate, with our then 5-month old son in a backpack, crying my eyes out. Couldn’t believe it was happening and thought it was the dawning of a new age – which it in fact was but not at all what I imagined back then.
Marc you were much more perceptive….
Sigh….
Hugh @ 98
How about outing a CIA agent? Does that make Scooter an enemy combatant? When does he get shipped off to Guantanamo for his tribunal?
Regarding April Glaspie, it’s true that she said some remarkably stupid things in her meeting with Saddam Hussein shortly before the invasion of Kuwait. However, Tariq Aziz, Iraq’s foreign minister under Saddam Hussein, gave an interview to PBS in 1996 in which he states pretty clearly that Iraq did not regard her remarks as a green light to invade Kuwait:
Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait occurred at a time when the U.S.-Iraqi relationship was souring after nearly a decade of friendly relations and tacit U.S. support in the 1980s, when the U.S. saw Iraq as a bulwark against Iran (which in those days was the Reagan administration’s designated “worse-than-Hitler” regime in the Middle East). I think this souring of relations reflects two facts: (1) Iraq and Iran had ended their war, and (2) some people within the Reagan/Bush administrations had gradually become uncomfortable at the sheer magnitude of Saddam’s atrocities.
The underlying story here is the incompetence and incoherence of U.S. foreign policy for decades. Reagan and Bush administration officials had gone to bat for Saddam, even lobbying Congress to prevent passage of the “Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988,” which was approved unanimously by the U.S. Senate with sponsorship ranging from conservative Republican Jesse Helms to Democrat Claiborne Pell. If passed, the bill would have ended U.S. financial support for Iraq and imposed trade sanctions in response to Saddam Hussein’s gassing of the Kurds at Halabja. After passing the senate, though, it was killed in the House of Representatives thanks to lobbying coordinated by Colin Powell (who was then Reagan’s national security advisor).
What you have, in short, is political “leaders” in the United States whose integrity is so lacking that they will lobby one year to give Iraq a pass for genocide, then turn around a couple of years later and ramp up a war against Iraq following the invasion of Kuwait … and then, a decade later, they launch a second war. After the fall of Saddam’s regime in 2003, Powell made an appearance in Halabja and talked about the gassing of the Kurds as justification for Operation Iraqi Freedom. That takes real nerve. Rather than posturing as a defender of Halabja, he should have offered an abject apology.
Mary @
19
What relation to Osama is Plane?
Sheldon you have this, like, encyclopedic brain.
I fucking hate you.
cleter @ 104
IOKIYAR.
OT — anybody in NY catch Jeanine Pirro’s press conference today? It was hysterical. The irony of NYS republican darling having to answer the question screamed at Hillary was just delicious.
At the time Saddam was actually gassing people in Halabja, State Department officials said it wouldn’t have any effect on US/Iraq relations. I think George Shultz said something to the effect of “we look forward to building stronger relations with Iraq” or somesuch. The Reagan administration tried to downplay the whole “gassing his own people” thing at the time it was actually happening. IIRC, it was only Congressional Democrats who really seemed outraged by it at the time.
UptownNYChick
What question was it?
Balrog – Kissing Cousins. *g*
**********
Hugh/Marclord – a UK lawyer who has represented clients at GITMO is alleging that those kinds of threats have been made to him already, along the lines of even showing him a detention cell and mentioning it could be his. After all, one of his clients committed suicide – how much more clearly could he be supporting hostilities?
I read it as saying that US citizens can be taken for indefinite torture filled detention, but if someone wants to actually try them, they need to do it in a real court. But that they do not have habeas rights for the eternal detention, only a “by grace” trial on charges.
********
Re: the “change the party from within” theme, what just happened with Brown? I gave money to that campaign and I couldn’t be more embarassed over it now.
Never again.
Cleter: maybe something about her husband having an affair?
late nite fdl
Yes, UptownNYChick — please enlighten us who live a couple thousand miles away where the only newspaper delivered is the Gallup Independent. I am respectfully and truly interested!
AZ Matt @ 115
Apologies. Jeanine Pirro, she who imploded as a candidate against Hillary Clinton, is being investigated for conspiring to tape her husband. He’s already been to jail for tax evasion, been accused of taking money from the mob and fathered an illegitimate child.
So today, she stood up and said she shouldn’t have to answer the question of why she stays with that man!
Very amusing to me.
Started the thread hours ago but got pulled away, and now this will be EPU’d, but I wanted to say that you have been a favorite of mine for months, Swopa.
——————–
Wasn’t it April Gillespie? Doesn’t matter…
——————–
TPM has the story about the excitement in NY. Great stuff!
Oh and the beauty of it, is it was discovered when they were wiretaping former NYPD Police Commissioner bernard Kerik. Rudy has already scrapped a fundraiser for her!
Sorta off topic, but not much. I just finished listening to a live talk by/interview of Seymour Hersh in Santa Fe, NM (only broadcast on UNM public radio, as far as I know) and it was interesting, but, not entirely elucidating.
Hersh was, throughout, pretty circumspect about the prospects for an attack on Iran, and from listening to interviews with him in the past, that simply means he’s working on a new report and doesn’t want to talk about what is going to appear in print. From that, I would expect something in the next month from him on that subject.
Through the first hour, and parts of the second, he repeated the notion that, after the 2006 elections, Bush will feel there are no restraints or constraints on him. In the first hour, in this context, he said, “we haven’t hit bottom yet.”
Mary @
112
…if someone wants to actually try them, they need to do it in a real court. But that they do not have habeas rights for the eternal detention, only a “by grace” trial on charges.
Sounds about right. However, Lord Baby and I are watching ‘Dumbo’ right now and he’s jumping on my back, so my train of thought is a little…punctuated. So yeah, they’ll get to see the evidence against them if they make it to a real (US) court. Thus you’re tortured until you give a confession, then you get to see your own confession in court. It’s not Stalinism at all, see, because the confession is real, and not forged. In an ownership society, you must own your confession, or it threatens the foundations of property rights.
Sheldon thanks for the April Glaspie/Colin Powell detail.
Unlike Pachacutec, I don’t hate you. ;-) I appreciate the kind of obsessive compulsion that went into building that level of knowledge. Now I take my medication or they call the Department. (LOL)
MarcLord wrote:
Thanks…now I’m going to go wash my hands again, for the 1,013th time today. ;-)
If you’re still here, Sheldon, may I ask who inspired you to write the book? (doesn’t have to be named personally)
Re: the “change the party from within” theme, what just happened with Brown? I gave money to that campaign and I couldn’t be more embarassed over it now.
Never again.”
I missed this. Wazup with Brown? I’ve contributed to quite a few Act Blue Dems here, that might have been one of them!?
Mary – if you’re still here or another of our legal gurus – didn’t the Patriot Act give the president the right to decide who was an “enemy combatant” or some such … since the admin has labeled deep ecology folks as a terrorist threat, what protects any one from being so labeled and tortured under this legislation?
I just emailed Russ Feingold’s Progressive Patriot’s Fund, a fund that just awarded Brown the “patriot of the month” award through an online poll He gets all the funds collected this month or something. I told them his vote was shocking, I felt betrayed; my contributions through ActBlue did not go to anyone close to “progressive.” For shame.
Hugh @ 98
Sounds like a new Sedition Act
folks – don’t miss Arianna’s post on all of this – she nails it!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..30399.html
Siun @
125
You’re right, but it’s the Sec of State, Sec of Defense and …?
Siun,
See my #65 for the definition in the House bill. The answer to your question is not much.
Siun @
125
Suin, go to page seven, the third one down
http://bordc.org/resources/repeal.pdf
MarcLord wrote:
I can’t really say that a specific person iinspired me to write The Best War Ever. John and I have been writing and propaganda/public relations for almost 20 years now, and the war in Iraq is such a monumental example of what’s wrong with propaganda-driven public policy that that we almost couldn’t resist wanting to write about it, first in our 2003 book, Weapons of Mass Deception, and now in this latest.
I find, though, that anger is one of the things that motivates me to write. The difference between the two books is that WMD was written while the war was just beginning, at a time the the mass media and much the public were euphoric over how well the war was going and how great an idea it was. We wanted to burst the bubble of illusions and point out how the justifications for war were based on propaganda and deceptions.
Three years later, of course, there’s not much point in arguing that the invasion should not have happened. The U.S. can’t un-invade Iraq, so the question now is what we do about the mess we’re in. Our motivation for writing this book was to point out how the propaganda that got us into war is leading to failures and chaos on the battlefield due to the Bush administration’s tendency to believe its own propaganda. At another level, the thing that really makes me angry is the indifference that many people in the United States (not only Republicans or the Bush administration) seem to feel about the suffering of the Iraqi people. The first chapter we wrote (although it’s not the chapter that begins the book) is titled “Not Counting the Dead.” It compares and contrasts the way the Bush administration, the media and the American people have talked about U.S. versus Iraqi casualties. I think there’s a deep-rooted set of habits, based on American cultural isolationism combined with the hubris of regarding ourselves as a “superpower,” that makes it much too easy for us to imagine that the opinions and even the lives of other people are unimportant compared to our own. So, that’s one of the themes that we’re also trying to explore.
As for the people who I would credit with helping me see things this way, I would begin with the friends I made in college who were from countries like Pakistan or India or parts of Latin America … the people I met in the 1980s and later as a Nicaraguan solidarity activist … or, for that matter, my brother Kenny’s wife, who happens to be from Turkey and is a very charming, delightful person. I got the chance to spend some time in Turkey at the time of his wedding a few years ago (shortly before the invasion of Iraq) and met members of her extended family. American movies such as “Midnight Express” tend to depict Turkey as a backward place where the main activities consist of drug trafficking and sadistic behavior in prisons, but the people I met were cultured, cosmopolitan, generous and intelligent.
I’m rambling a bit, but I hope this answers your question.
Thank you Sheldon.
We can’t see it, can’t smell it, can’t touch it. Sanitized by the administration and the media for the American people who clutch their grief (9/11) so close, yet the equivalent of 9/11 happens constantly over “there” and many don’t even care or acknowledge their responsibility.
Great book! I ran across The Best War Ever online somewhere, and ended up ordering that and Weapons of Mass Deception. I’ve since read both, and highly recommend both.
When I first got Weapons of Mass Deception I was looking at the cover in the elevator on the way up to my apartment, and somebody else in the elevator noticed the cover (which, admittedly, I was holding so it could be easily seen) – the following exchange went something like:
Him: Weapons of Mass Deception? They found the weapons!
Me: There are no weapons over there.
Him: Yes they did, Senator Santorum said so.
Me: Yeah, because he’s a credible source.
Him: Well, okay .. you must be a crackhead then.
Me: Okay, thanks! You too :)