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Atrios and Digby wonder where all our leaders who profess to be people of faith are with regard to torture, both Democrat (Obama) and Republican (Lieberman). The question proceeds from an assumption that people of faith should naturally be against this sort of thing, but as a Pew report tells us, it is the secularists and not the Christians who are most likely to be appalled.
On the whole torture doesn't poll so strongly -- might this have something to do with the failure of so many on both sides of the aisle to stand up to St. John McCain? (One has to wonder at the logic of the '08 hopefuls who are too timid to stand up to him now, and expect that we somehow won't remember that their nerve crumbled when it really mattered. A little demonstrable leadership would be nice).
But surprisingly (or not, as your perspective might dictate) people who identify themselves as Christians seem to be more enthusiastic about the whole idea of torture than their secular fellows.
If you combine those Christians who think torture is either never or only rarely acceptable, you have 42 percent of Catholics and 49 percent of white Protestants. The comparable statistic of those who are decribed as "secular," which I presume means agnostic or atheist, is 57 percent opposition. In other words, if you are an American Christian, you are more likely to support torture than if you are an atheist or agnostic. Christians for torture: it's a new constituency. Another part of the Bush legacy.
Until such time as someone decides it's time to legalize pedophelia and opposition to the bill surveys like shit, I like to think we've hit the wall when it comes to gifting one's conscience to the pollsters and being led around by the nose by the religious right.
As Atrios suggests, it certainly would be nice to see Barak Obama stand on the floor of the Senate and give one of those rousing faith-based speeches he is so famous for; such leadership would certainly blunt his own critique of Democrats that they are a bunch of godless heathens and hostile to religion. As Digby always says, it's time to stop the Biden-esque exhortations about what Democrats should and shouldn't be doing and actually do it.
(Hat-tip to Richard Cranium.)
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Fitz?
Seems the legacy of the Inquisition lives on.
I wonder what the results would look if you broke down the religous categories down into Republicans vs. Democrats.
Perhaps something about idolizing the image of their savior being crucified…
The Torture Bill vs the Domestic Wiretapping Bill and why one is going to pass and the other ain’t quite making it.
Pretty simple explanation:
The Torture Bill affects “other folks”.
The Domestic Wiretapping Bill affects “us”.
Easy decision on both on the part of the public as well as those Congresscritters.
No problem sticking it to other folks, but in an election year, probably not a winner sticking it to us.
Simple, neat, and oh so pathological!
Jesus would forgive them for they know not what they do.
Take the Fox News Quiz!
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.....-quiz.html
It’d be even funnier if it weren’t true.
Well, lets face it, Inquisitions are part of their heritage.
From the last thread:
Stop attacking each other.
Last warning.
I recognize tensions are high, but that excuses no one, not even regulars, from our culture of respectful discourse. If we have to put you in time out, we will.
Still waiting for someone to comment on the alleged sending of anthrax to Keith Olberman, and the glee upon which that hag at the NY Post reported it!!!!
Eric @ 10
Crooks and Liars has the details, here.
Lou Costello @ 6
Not true!
Fundies believe Jeebus would forgive them ’cause they know exactly what they’re doing, and Jeebus would want them to be sending those folks straight to perdition.
Hell, those folks aren’t even Xtians!
I think that the split between secular and religious is based on the split between (1) who expects to be tortured, and (b) who expects to be applying the torture.
The sad thing about this poll is that the “never” category was not over 50%. As far as I’m concerned, the pro-torture lobby has already won.
Pachacutec @
9
Democracy is a contact sport.
Speaking as a Christian, this has to be one of the most depressing things I’ve ever seen. I can’t imagine a more total failure of communicating our core beliefs to the people who claim to follow Jesus than this. I don’t know what else to say.
Mad Dogs @ 12
The question was Jesus…not what some fundie thinks or not.
The Jesus I know would forgive them because that just the kinda guy he is.
You’ve hit one of my pet peeves with this one, Jane. I get livid about the religious wailing and hand-wringing on the right (gays, Plan B, etc.) and the parallel silence on the left.
I too am curious about the breakdown of various subgroups in the survey, so I went looking for the report. Among the highlights:
The groups that were most likely to say torture is never justified: security experts (59%) and religious leaders (56%); least likely to say torture is never justified: state/local govt types (29%) and news media (36%). In between were several other groups, including military (49%) and scientists/engineers (48%).
Still digging through a long report, but if I find some other nuggets, I’ll pass them along.
Thanks, Jane, for raising this!!!
If one is an atheist (or not sure), one has fewer ways to justify the infliction of human suffering. There are ways, but you have to actually do the mental and ethical homework to get there.
On the other hand, if you can rely on a higher power to justify inflicting suffering, it’s much easier; you can see yourself as being not responsible for doing so. So if you believe in a higher power, whether it is some variety of god, Joe Stalin, Chairman Mao, Adolf Hitler or some particularly nasty local spirit, you’re more likely to torture and approve of torturing. Seems logical to me.
winje:
Yes, and armies that fight need to fight the enemy, not each other. We’re at crunch time coming from behind on these issues. We don’t have the luxury to waste energy fighting or trashing each other.
Again, as stated earlier, please don’t mistake my concise prose for anger or any permutation of disrespect. I’m just going for clarity here, offering my point of view for community consideration.
bdu @
11
It certainly raised my eyebrows. If I recall correctly, one of the NYPost’s employees contracted cutaneous anthrax on her middle finger during the the whole anthrax episode. It made for a memorable cover photo.
Here’s a quote for Harry Reid and Barack Obama to think about while they’re making excuses for deciding not to burn any of the precious powder of their “political capital” by opposing the legalization of arbitrary arrest and torture by WHOEVER THE FUCK BUSH AND RUMSFELD WANT TO SEIZE.
Sorry, my caps-lock key seemed to get stuck there for some reason. The quote is:
“What would it profit a man to gain the world, if in the process he loses his soul?”
So, Harry, you’d legalize torture to gain control of the Senate?
So, Barack, this doesn’t bother you as a Christian and a Democrat?
Are you guys going to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT or just tell us that when you’ve got Tester and Webb and Sanders, then maybe next time you’ll have some fucking backbone and stand up for what’s right? How many Democrats past forty-five do you NEED to get forty-one?
windje @ 15
I don’t agree. The whole point of democratic rules is to resolve disputes through non-violent — “non-contact” — means. I don’t see how one can understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights any other way.
bdu @ 11
Didn’t Ann “Deathmask” Coulter brag a few weeks ago about sending fake anthrax letters?
Was going to post this on the previous thread, and then saw we had a new one…
I haven’t had much time today to keep up with things, but in skimming over the comments, I am trying to figure out what, exactly, will be accomplished if people do not vote for Democrats in the mid-terms. Will it get us a majority in Congress? Nope. Will it put more Republicans in office? Yup. Do we need an even more marginalized voice? Nope. So, what will you have accomplished? You think you’ll get a pass when the train comes and the men in the black trench coats come into your neighborhood? I doubt it.
Look, I don’t get why any American would vote for any of this legislation. Part of the problem is that too few of the people who get a vote on it even fully understand what it is they are voting for or against, and where torture and habeas and immunity from prosecution are concerned, no one has any business voting who cannot accurately explain the legislation.
For my money, the options should be (1) put a hold on all of the legislation, if that’s possible, (2) if not, filibuster the crap out of it and (3) if filibuster fails, walk out of the chamber, en masse, right onto the steps of the building, where they can be joined by as many military men and women as they can get together, put innocent people who have been tortured in front of a microphone to tell their stories, and then have each and every Democrat read a portion of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the appropriate Geneva Conventions, and end with the text of the oath of office that each took.
I think Jesus would be proud of that fight.
If you support torture, you support abortion!
That should give them pause.
The argument goes a little like this :
Peoplelover : So you have a guy you think is connected to a terrorist threat, but you can’t prove it. He’s innocent under the law. It’s one of those ticking bomb scenarios, ok to torture him?
Godlover : Well, obviously I’m not happy about torturing anyone. But if it has to be done to protect the multitude, I suppose it’s ok…it’s one person’s welfare against the many.
PL : What if we can’t crack him? Can we torture his wife in front of him till we break him? It’s still one against the many…and the clock is ticking..
GL : What!? Well, I suppose. I mean lots of Christian lives are at stake…
PL : What if he still won’t crack? Can we poke a few hot wires at his pregnant wife’s fetus till he tells us what he knows?
GL : What!! The Fetus? But the bible….but the President..OMG [stroked out]
Lou Costello @ 17
And my point was these folks know exactly what they’re doing.
The “Not True!” part related to “they know not what they do”.
I don’t buy the “cover” of “they know not what they do”.
I’d love to see a darkblack photoshop a semite on a crucifix wearing a keffiyeh with the caption “Does this make it okay now?”
scarecrow @ 23
Democracy represents the ebb and flow of competing judgments in the marketplace of ideas. If you thought I was alluding to physical contact, you are mistaken.
Norm reposted this missive from the daily brew the other day - seems fitting here.
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gm.....s_tor.html
more at the link
SharonW at 28 — Nice (in a very sad sort of way)
Eyes on the prize peeps!
Get out the vote.
Come November we need to take back at least one house.
We need to work to take back the majority.Remember, it took the Repugnants a long time to get it.
It’s our turn.
If the Repugs can go back and change long standing laws to suit their purpose,so can we.
Enough in-fighting.Attack Atttack Attaaaaaaack!
Fundies also support the death penalty. It’s an odd disconnect that happens in their heads. I’ll never understand how they can reconcile Americans killing innocent people in Iraq and their religious beliefs. A fundy evangelist once told me this killing is an acceptable price of war.
I wrote a little about this today http://www.dailykos.com/user/RagingGurrl
Jesus said repeatedly in the Gospels that people should love each other. I’m pretty sure that torture is not included in loving each other.
I like to remember that God is very big on the TRUTH.
Sooner or later the truth about this sorry time in American history will become known.
Then we can spend the rest of our lives apologizing to the rest of the world like post-WWII Germans.
FIGHT BACK NOW!!! Don’t wait for history’s condemnation!
Anne –
That’s a pretty good strategy, politically and ethically.
weird, they just did a roll call and it seems that the chamber is nearly empty…
windje
Then it seems we agree.
immanentize @ 31
Effective, I think. One needs to show those people who love Christ how to see Christ in others.
Every human spirit is divine and a child of god…if you believe in that sort thing.
Anne @ 25
Can you imagine that? Talk about front page coverage.
Anne @ 25, and scarecrow
Great suggestion, let me second that idea. Walk out. Don’t vote for it.
Republicans: Pro-post-birth-abortion
I can hardly believe this. Torture? Christians?
I grew up reading about torture OF Christians, by Romans. How did we get this way? God help us, really. I mean it.
I had to go back and re-look at the poll. It doesn’t fit with my red state observations. The fundie pro-torture number is way to low. The poll is a year old..I think a year of brain washing in the mega-church has increased the pro-torture number a lot. and I still can’t believe this nightmare.
nj progressive @ 40
me, too. would love to be there.
In general, I’m agnostic on this issue — I’d love for Democrats to take a more vocal stand, but I also understand the strategy of trying to defeat the bill procedurally without giving Rove added fearmongering fodder.
But I agree with Atrios that for Obama, there’s no excuse. He’s got the media clout to make an impact, and he’s not in danger of losing reelection. He’s just scared to lead.
Anne @ 25
I’ll go with your plan.
At least until the newspeople ignore the demonstration.
scarecrow @ 35
works for me! I’m almost positive I just heard Landrieu vote with the thugs.
The ironies are almost too much to bear. According to the gospels (and translating a bit to the language of today), Jesus was tortured at the hands of the religious and political authorities. He was condemned by a military tribunal, operating under some very odd rules of procedure. A pardon was offered, but the cries of the mob for his death ruled it out. He died a painful death given only to slaves and those who rebel against the government.
Now Bush wants to take what was meted out against the one he claims as his savior and make it the official policy of this nation. This begs only one question: henceforth, will he call himself a Pilatist instead of a Christian?
I’d love to see Obama bring out a bowl of water and a towel onto the Senate floor . . .
angie @ 36
That’s pretty normal. Most of the wheeling and dealing is done in the hallways or behind closed doors, but rarely on the floor.
Additionally, the chamber is almost empty most of the time when someone is speaking.
“Speaking” is done for the camera, the written and electronic record, and for PR value.
Very rarely is “speaking” actually worthy of the title of “debate”.
Anne - I understand your point, but don’t agree. At some point, you say no. If your choice to “preserve the party” is voting for people who were willing to make this country a state sponsor of torture of innocent people, then yes - you take that punch. They are a cancer and if you go along, you become riddled with it yourself.
If “our voice” is the voice of appeasment on torture, then yes, I’m ok with being even more marginalized. It it means meaningless Green or libertarian votes or staying home, then that’s what it means. Because you either go along with torture or you don’t. And if you do, then you don’t deserve to serve and no one who votes for you deserves to keep their citizenship IMO.
If Hostettler votes against this legislation, I will absolutely flip support.
*****
And BTW - imo the PEW question was very biased. If it was put in terms of: Is it ok to torture innocent people, or Is it ok to torture a SUSPECT (with emphasis) to get information when you know that they will, eventually, tell you what you want them to say, whether it is the truth or not, or something along those lines, it would have been more accurate.
To say that you are torturing to get “important information” as if that is already a given outcome, slants the question.
I think I’ve pissed off too many people, so I’ll bow out.
Swopa, I agree Obama is scared to lead. After 2 years of calling and emailing him (as a constituent), I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s a constitutional (no pun intended) feature of his character: he’s a follower; he’s not scrappy.
Best to look elsewhere.
As a serious believing Catholic, I am appalled and ashamed. The Gospels make it clear that torture is always wrong, and the Catechism of my Church calls it an offense against moral law and against the dignity of the human person. No equivocations, no special cases. Wrong. Period.
And for those who will now point out to me that the Church has been responsible for torture, yes, I know. It does not negate what I said above; it does add some irony to it. What’s done is done and cannot be undone, but we can learn from it, repent, and try again.
Jane — this survey parallels one I recently saw for High School students. It seems there was less than a majority for key portions of the 1st Amendment — like freedom of the press. A majority (or close to that) thought that the press should not be allowed to publish something that the government did not approve.
I often marvel at the Founding Fathers, although even they turned a blind eye towards slavery (and equal rights for women).
William Ockham @ 1:26 pm (#16)
I’m not sure if it’s helpful, but one thing to realize when looking at a study like this is that secularists are a fairly select group of people in this country. They are people who are capable of thinking about a subject and coming to a conclusion that’s different from what the people around them believe. While there are certainly Christians who are capable of such things, the folks who aren’t tend to stay Christian, I think. Christianity is the majority religion here, and the folks who don’t feel like exploring other options aren’t likely to identify as any other religion. Trust me on this, if you’re a secularist in this country, you’re used to thinking for yourself about philosophy.
Christians sometimes get the idea that we’ve chosen this position because we don’t know anything about Christianity. That’s virtually impossible in this country. I think statisticians would refer to us as a self-selecting population.
Mary– please stay; I value you and your insight immeasurably!
Mr. A. Sullivan is still insisting on being a hoot: he presumes that secular, which he writes between inverted commas, ‘means agnostic or atheist’. No, it means maybe ‘not overtly or specifically religious’, ‘worldly’ as oppsed to transcendent, it refers to people who do not identify with any religion and who do not wish to be defined on the terms of people who are said by themselves and the media to have ‘faith’. It has nothing to do with agnosticism or atheism. Curious how people who worship gods can’t fathom that others live completely outside the notion, not in opposition to it.
These poll results make me think the nation has taken leave of its senses. The average American doesn’t seem to even care that this increases the chances of our own troops being tortured in Iraq and future conflicts.
I’m already apalled at the chilling indifference and detachment people seem to have about the war. I’ve been blaming the MSM for being asleep at the wheel for years now - but I’m coming to the conclusion more and more that it’s simply that Americans have no compassion, are selfish, unthinking, willfully blind sheep who don’t give a damn about anyone else as long as their own asses are safe.
God help us.
RagingGurrl @ 33
I’d be interested to know if the real split is between those who are more authoritarian and those who are not, rather than religion per se. Roman Catholicism is a heavily top-down religion, for example.
The reason authoritarian followers are more likely to support the death penalty, torture, war, etc. is because they implicitly trust their accepted authority figures to determine who is guilty (or, in the case of war, how much collateral damage is acceptable for the greater good.) Thus they can be in favor of these things (even to the point, as a friend in Florida heard, of proudly declaring their identity as a “pro-life, pro-death Republican”) because they are absolutely certain that those who receive it are guilty and deserve it, but be absolutely opposed to abortion because the “victim” is innocent (and the other person involved in the situation, the woman, doesn’t count.)
Senator Reid’s office was unable to state a position on whether the Senator supports a pardon for people who torture.
They were in a hurry to assure me that he has taken a position opposing torture, but I guess I don’t understand how you oppose it by giving pardons to those who do it.
scarecrow @ 37
We do, although there are some Republican lawmakers I would not hesitate to . . .
Mary — please don’t go. And I think you’re right about this:
CNN just announced that the Repugs will hold their 2008 Convention in Minneapolis.
Lawdy, the odor of fundy fire and brimstone here will shame a polecat.
Puleeze somebody, can’t you sacrifice your state instead of mine?
Come on Mississippi or Alabama! Think of all the Repug money they’d leave behind.
We’ll even pay you to make them go away!
It is probably the case that most people who identify themselves as religious are also paternalists. As George Lakoff points out, and as many others have, they believe the world is essentially a dangerous place and that the chief role of the father figure is to provide protection. Many of these people believe that evil is personified to some degree and that some people, like terrorists and child murderers, are so infected with evil and dangerous that they should be tortured and killed. Especially if it will save other lives. So your degree of infection with evil puts you a sliding scale of rights. You are either with us or against us.
Those of us in the Enlightenment tradition have a somewhat sunnier view of human life. As liberals we are opposed to excessive use of government force and coercion, not to mention arbitrary power. We believe in the universal rights of man, to apply in all cases and for all people. From a paternalist view this always comes across as a lover of evil-doers.
Let’s remember that the inquisition also was born from religous fervor. Too much religion tends to stupefy people.
Pew botched the framing of the question, IMO.
They say “use of torture…to gain important information”.
This falesly assumes that torture frequently yields valid, accurate information…rather than what torture actually produces which is whatever the interegator wants to hear. Try to kill me via stress positions and waterboarding long enough and I’ll admit to taking part in the Munich ‘72 incident…and I wasn’t even born until ‘73.
windje @ 60
Ah, but that’s precisely when the principle gets tested, isn’t it?
The only group that benefits in the long term from breaching the Constitution are the fundie Christian Reconstructionists. They detest separation of church and state, due process, equal protection, etc. The death penalty is not a paradox..they want to impose Biblical law (without dietary and temple laws) on us. You don’t believe..death, adultery..death, homosexuals..death and so on. These people are on a long term mission and if they are no stopped, we are screwed. I just got the Red State DVD in the mail. Take a look at the Jesus Camp trailer, it’s sickening.
“It is strange but true that the country’s most prominent spokesmen for the Prince of Peace and for tradition and morality are also its most outspoken proponents of torture. These worthies are unfazed to learn that this government is responsible for the bloody medieval abuse of innocent men, like the Canadian citizen Maher Arar, who was sent to a Syrian dungeon on baseless suspicion.
The Reverend Louis Sheldon, who heads an organization called the Traditional Values Coalition, has indignantly warned Senator McCain that opposing torture may mean forfeiting the support of evangelical leaders in 2008.
What are we to make of the fact that men like the reverend, who refer to themselves as “Christian” while obnoxiously suggesting that other Christians are inferior in faith and character, now tell us that we must support the horrific abuse of prisoners?
What “traditions” and “values” do Mr. Sheldon — and, for that matter, the devout Mr. Bush — truly uphold? What kind of conservative promotes the violent abuse of people who have been convicted of no crime? “
Joe Conason agrees
full article
Um, so can we convince the thirty percent of the population that will follow Bush (no matter where or what) to hole up in those gated-and-guarded subdivisions, and let us put up barricades to keep out those evil terrorists? (Seeing as there’s a lot more of us than them, and there’s no f*cking way they can build enough camps campacity to hold the two-thirds of the country that doesn’t believe them.) We just won’t tell them that anything that keeps out terrorists will also keep them in; if they can figure it out, they can come out.
Quentin @ 56
As an agnostic, I tend to think that there’s nothing oppositional about agnosticism to faith, except in that we can’t really claim to know the absolute truth like a lot of the devoutly faithful. I’m perfectly willing to entertain the idea that there’s a supreme being, but I’m going to look at someone who tells me the know God exists and have spoken to said deity personally (ahem) with a healthy amount of skepticism.
“I recognize tensions are high, but that excuses no one, not even regulars, from our culture of respectful discourse. If we have to put you in time out, we will.”
Pach,
How about ‘purgatory’, instead of ‘time out?’ As a fallen catholic, I’ve always had a hankering to check out purgatory….
Mary @ 50
I see your point, too, Mary. I am sickened and ashamed of people who call themselves Americans who are willing risk the rights of all of us by going along with this awful legislation. Both my Senators are voting as I would like them to, and I am doing what I can to make sure that Sarbanes’ replacement will be Ben Cardin, who I also know will do the right thing.
Jesus will have to try to forgive me for the anger I feel about those who are only voting for politics and partisanship instead of the Constitution they swore to preserve, protect and defend.
scarecrow @ 53
I never put too much stock in surveys of high school students. In this case, the First Amendement is a pretty academic point in their lives — they’re in an environment (school) where the “government” routinely blocks things or more subtly pressures students not to go forward with them. They’re subject to searches that would be unconstitutional in the wider world, and more, and outside of that, they’re still under their parents’ rules. So I take that result mainly as a reflection of their experiences, having not yet experienced or thought about those real freedoms to any great degree.
cajun @ 71
I want to check out Limbo. Sounds sort of peaceful. No angels incessantly singing praises to the Lord, and no smelly brimstone either.
bellumregio @ 63
bellumregio, I tend to disagree with your initial observation, but before I do let me ask: on what do you base that statement? Lakoff is right about how paternalistic folks view the world, but the leap from that to saying “most religious folks are paternalistic” is a big one, in my opinion.
Let’s not let stereotypes of religious people obscure the discussion, anymore than we would stereotype non-religious/secular/atheist/etc. folks .
Mary @ 50
please stay, i beg you. yours in a voice of reason and morality in an insane and immoral time.
Mary @ 50
You better not go!!!
Mary dear, if you feel your blood pressure is going through the roof, take a break, walk around the block, smell the roses, do something, but Do.Not.Go!
Your friends here are incapable of being pissed off by you! Not now, not ever!
That poll is almost a year old. Some more recent (albeit lacking in religious perspective) CBS numbers, via PollingReport.com:
“Do you think it is sometimes justified to use torture to get information from a suspected terrorist, or is torture never justified?”
.
Sometimes
Justified
Never
Justified
Depends
(vol.)
Unsure
% % % %
ALL adults 35 56 5 4
Republicans 50 38 6 6
Democrats 25 67 5 3
Independents 32 59 4 5
So you’ve got solid majorities of all adults, Dems and Independents saying it’s never justified. And only 50% of Republicans are saying it’s “sometimes” justified.
I don’t do political consulting, but if I did, I know what I’d be telling Democratic candidates and office holders right about now …
Peterr @ 48
Not only his Savior, his chief philosophical advisor, or however he phrased it. “He touched my heart…”
Oh, but that’s so pre 9-11….
Wish one of the WH press corps would ask Bush when he turned away from Jesus….
It is interesting to think that perhaps Reid and Obama have calculated that they are better off not to spend any of their precious “political capital” on the torture issue. I’d like to see their vast storehouse of political capital; as far as I know, they don’t have any.
Lizzy L @ 52
Where are the Catholic bishops’ outcry on this? Where the papal outrage? Where the demand of the flock not to vote for candidates who support this, as they did to Kerry?
Jane — What Would Jesus Do?
Jesus wept.
I cited some of the pieces of this military commissions bill in the last thread. The bizarrest aspect is that a detainee can be tried for torture and be convicted on the basis of evidence obtained by torture. It gives me a headache.
Peterr @ 48
Wow. Peterr - if you put this analogy out there, suggesting the parallels between Jesus and “terrorists,” every right wing head in American would explode. And we’d have to hide you. Forever.
Levin amendment is defeated.
Specter is up, but maybe Leahy first?
The fear is being perceived as weak on security.
That’s why all the Dems are standing around like they’ve been caught in the headlights.
scarecrow @ 66
It is, but ebb and flow means exactly that, it does not comport with tyranny.
“When in the course of human events . . .
Here is your photoshopped image of sweet Jesus.
http://homepage.mac.com/marymc.....bum17.html
Mary @ 1:48 pm (#50)
Yes, I think that was probably a mistake on their part. For that matter, why didn’t they ask something along the lines of “Do you think it’s a good idea for the government to torture people whom they suspect of wrongdoing?”
I sure hope you don’t, or that you come back.
Harry, Arlen and Patrick are bartering for time, all very “distinguished”. I’d love to know the total number of minutes each year we pay them to call each other that.
Specter now on Habeas.
The problem with this poll (in fact most polls) is that the question posed is false on its face and also shouldn’t be posed as a conditional. “… in order to gain important information” pre-supposes that torture is an effective means to that end, something that historical data disputes. Properly designed/conducted polls could actually have a positive impact in getting people to think critically about such issues. It would be interesting to see what the data would show if the question were posed as follows:
Hey Jane - Check out this post by Ted Rall.
http://www.uexpress.com/tedrall/
I find it interesting that the obsession with the “Christian Right” and the current administration with all that is gay just happens to extend to their prefered forms of torture. Just like the inquisiton. No suprise people observe that homophobes tend to be closet cases…
I wasn’t pissed off at mary, but don’t fret, she’ll be back. I don’t think she meant forever.
If you drop out of this election, you are allowing the current situation to continue.
Aren’t we tougher than that?
We took a hit today, it was painful. But tomorrow we are going to put on our armor and FIGHT AGAIN.
If you KNOW what’s happening and give up, you are abandoning the young ones who will be living in the horrific dystopia of our near future.
Fight until you drop! We do not live for ourselves alone!
Ooh, my feelings were hurt so I quit: NOT THE WINNING STRATEGY.
Being a pacifist can be helpful for staying out of wars of aggression, but for this battle we need people who will STAND UP AND OPPOSE EVIL.
Time to dig deep, people. Whether it is your faith or your philosophy that evil should be stopped, THIS IS IT. TAKE ACTION.
Eric @
10
I wrote her a letter. Thanks for letting us know about it, I hadn’t heard anything.
Now I’ll write Keith a letter.
Mary—you mean bow out temporarily, right? We totally need you. Please clarify.
“Eyes on the prize peeps! Get out the vote. Come November we need to take back at least one house.”
Sorry. But that isn’t the prize. The prize is keeping immoral and unjust laws from being passed.
Democrats taking the house is one possible path to that prize. But based on their current behaviour, you have to seriously question that assertion.
Ok ok, Mary, if you stay, I’ll wear a yellow tie all next week.
Redshift at 73: I agree that the HS period shapes these views, and that accounts for some of this. But I recall civics/government classes as early as Junior High in which basic principles of free speech/religion were taught. I wonder whether these values are emphasized as much now as they were then — or whether standardized tests that focus on things other than whether you’re a decent person and a good citizen are displacing this.
Re: religious believers condoning torture - none of this is surprising.
Religion has achieved far more harm than good over the course of human history.
There is an excellent new book by Richard Dawkins that I highly recommend to everyone, entitled “The God Delusion“. It is an apt title.
Cafferty hitting on the Bush trying to pardon himself for war crimes language buried deep in the bill.
Should Congress pass a bill giving retroactive immunity to president Bush for war crimes?
Send your opinion to
caffertyfile@cnn.com
Anne @ 25
Thank you Anne. I was reading the last thread at work and couldn’t comment - it was driving me nuts.
I have a real concern with newbies showing up and shouting what horrible folks the Dems are and they’re not going to contribute money or work for them.
Rove is really good at putting the Dems in a no win situation. They are in a minority. The Republicans in both houses of Congress have made sure Dems have fewer options than any minority has ever had in the history of our Democracy.
Dean talked about this in his book. He clearly wished that the Dems would go public with what has happened and how limited they are in fighting back. He feels it is unfortunate that the Dems are concerned about “boring” people with what they consider procedural issues and looking like cry babies. I agree with Dean. The Dems in the Senate and the House should make it clear what the Republican majority has done and how limited their options are.
Rove is striving, not just to fire up his base, but to deflate the grassroots of the opposition. And FDL is clearly a place that has mobilized the opposition to astonishing effect. BushCo was caught totally off guard by the Lamont victory and you could tell how concerned they were.
(All of the above being said, there’s still no excuse for Dems like Lieberman, Pryor, etc.)
immanentize @ 98
Yes, but then the rest of us would leave. I hate these choices.
Don’t miss this outreach opportunity — send your comment to Jack Cafferty at caffertyfile@cnn.com
I’m doubling up on this urging just as he said he was on something he already covered yesterday because it’s so damned important.
Should the Congress pass legislation that would retroactively pardon Bush for war crimes?
caffertyfile@cnn.com
As Cafferty noted in his intro, even Nixon had Gerald Ford…. Send your comment asap, please. We have an opportunity here to make an impression. We are firepups, hear us roar.
caffertyfile@cnn.com
neil @
74
You admit on this blog that you want to check out Limbo? Brave soul.
Watch out for the Viagra.
scarecrow @ 2:20 pm (#103)
Sometimes, you just have to take a stand.
I, incidently, am neutral on the yellow tie issue.
jello5929 @ 97
Really? How convenient for the Republicans?
scarecrow @ 103
Yes, but then the rest of us would leave. I hate these choices.
Ha! Best laugh I have had all day. Thanks! As my offer has yet to be accepted, can I withdraw it?
bdu @ 70
No one who has stood in the presence of God does any talking. The reaction is to be awestruck and speechless for the duration of the experience. I speak from experience.
I definitely do not claim to know the “absolute truth,” and would never judge anyone else about their spiritual or philosophical journey. My only small contribution is some tiny light, not covered with a bushel basket, but held up high on a hill for others to see. It is a small light with much flickering.
Prairie Sunshine 104 –
Sent my response at your behest –
“Hell No!”
For whatever it’s worth, I wrote my bishop yesterday asking him to address a message to the faithful on the subject of torture–something more than the US Conference of Catholic Bishops recent letters to the Congress. Moreover I asked in the Catholic Voter Guide that shows up before Election Day he include candidates’ stance “for” or “against” this torture legislation (along with the old stand-bys of abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, etc.).
I’m curious what response, if any, I’ll get.
Prairie Sunshine @ 104
Thanks for this. Just put in my 2 cents.
Cafferty is a lifelong Republican - which is a comforting thought that there are indeed some Republicans as disgusted and apalled as we are. That’s perhaps a real ray of hope that we aren’t totally lost. After this poll everyone was discussing - I personally need every ray of hope I can glean.
Peterr, I was waiting for someone to post about the irony of Jesus being tortured…good on you.
Seculars more than others saying never to torture did & didn’t surprise me. I notice Sullivan is assuming that seculars are atheist or agnostic. I don’t think that takes into account those who have religious beliefs but don’t want to identify themselves with any church. I have a feeling that there are a lot more people in that category than polls reflect.
Prairie Sunshine @ 104
Ta for the heads-up!
Went to the CNN site and sent my comment in which was:
Only criminals need immunity. So tell us George, why do you need immunity?
Thanks, Tim. I’d hate to think we were so busy schmoozing within that we neglected a wonderful outreach opportunity dropped right in our laps.
When Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod, ministers preached against using the device because it thwarted God’s will.
Apparently, it was God’s will that people be struck by lightning. If someone can believe that God actually wants some human being to be struck by lightning, how far is the leap to believing God wants some human being to be tortured, if the torture is “for the greater good,” or some such blather?
We shouldn’t be surprised that “religious” folks think torture is okay. Not meaning any disrespect, by definition accepting something on faith means accepting something in the absence of evidence.
“God works in mysterious ways” can be used to justify the unjustifiable.
But with that, I do think “What would Jesus do” is the best question to ask a Christian if you want to challenge blind faith. Much better than “What does the church say to do?” anyway.
Neil and Mad Dogs, good on ya. Come on, folks, join in. Just click on the link. It’ll feel so fine!
mary mccurnin @ 88
I’d love to plaster that everywhere.
In fact, as we all know, Jesus was considered a subversive by the Romans and the Jewish Sanhedrin - and tortured before he was executed. How do distill that into a bumper sticker using Mary’s image?
Done, Prairie.
Specter still standing up for habeas.
Warner arguing that combatants don’t have a right to habeas out of country.
Specter responds that O’Connor held in Hamdan that they do, even in Cuba where, in a previous case, it was determined that Guantanamo is considered America due to the length of the lease there, >50 years. Interesting.
caffertyfile@cnn.com
There’s still time. Yesterday Cafferty and Wolfie commented about the volume of comments. Let’s really amp up the volume.
prairie — thanks for McCafferty link. e-mail on the way.
scarecrow @ 103
For the record I adore yellow ties.
Still friends, Imm?
scarecrow @ 103
I’m sure you meant the rest would leave because of the yellow tie — not if Mary stays!
Well, Levin’s as-high-as-Nuremberg-stakes gamble for all the moral credibility of the United States just failed, with the help of “Democrats” Mary Landrieu of Louisiana and Ben Nelson of Nebraska. The Republicans had their act together and enforced party discipline right down the line against their own majority-written Armed Services Committee military commission bill. The only Republican they gave a pass to was Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island.
What exactly, Carl Levin, was the point of that little exercise again? The Republicans did not have the 60 votes to get their compromise bill on the floor if a Democrat had objected, so why didn’t anyone object? And who’s planning to lead the filibuster of the border fence legislation with the Bush/Cheney unConstitutional, inhuman, inhumane, illegal, faithless, God-less “compromised torture” amendment attached???
Mary - you’ve been proven right so far. The committee bill language is now irrelevant, and history. There’s one chance left for the Democrats, and the decent people of this country: a filibuster of the border fence bill. But they’d better start whipping their caucus this instant and announcing their filibuster loudly for the evening news, or the Democrats are going to discover that they suddenly effectively no longer have a political party anymore, weeks before an election which seems to be the only thing in this world or beyond which matters to most of them [despite all the true-blue efforts of Rayne and of others like Howard Dean who will never stop striving].
new thread up - Blue America interview
Beating Back This Bill
by Matt Stoller, Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 02:45:47 PM EST
There are two debates going on, one internal and one in public. In public, the Democrats are rolling over, hence the anger at moral scolds like Obama. In private, it looks like the Democrats are not rolling over on this. They are furious about this compromise, which eviscerates Habeas Corpus. Here’s video of Ike Skelton, the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee. Skelton is objecting to this bill, though a few days ago Skelton was saying “I will need to look at the final bill carefully, but elements of the compromise I have seen are promising.” He’s angry that the Democratic amendments were turned down.
He thinks that Collins and Snowe are the fire line.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/9/27/14112/4703
Prairie, done when you first posted and will pass it on.
zennurse @ 90
Surprisingly, I am ok with this custom. This is a group of people with vastly differing worldviews and opinions, and the only way they can work together is to treat each other with respect and then state their disagreement.
Kinda like how I hope people here will treat each other. Not shooting at our own troops would be helpful in this war.
LindaR @ 115
This is what I argued, sort of, regarding Terri Schiavo. Would Jesus have tortured her body further by keeping her alive because people disagreed with her husband or would he have embraced her and allowed her to die naturally without further torment?
I’m not a Jesus person, but I’m pretty clear on the concept from childhood. The irony is intense. Just as it was when Bush flew to DC to address one person’s situation but couldn’t cut the vaca short for Katrina when thousands were suffering. Moral values, indeed.
As a Christian, as an Amrican, as a human being, I am so sicked by this I almost cannot breath or focus. I understand that thhose who adhere to a religion do not always “get it”–I keep trying to get it better, and sometimes become painfully aware that I have totally missed the point. But for those who say that a perfect expression of God was in the person of a semite who was crucified by the powerful precisely for being dangerous (and arguably a “terrorist”)to say that that same torture is justifiable when we become the pwoerful and can inflict it on others is sickening. “For as much as you do it to the least of these, you do it to me”.
Barbara Starr on CNN noting that govt has awarded a huge contract to monitor media coverage of the war and CNN is one of the networks that will be monitored.
Yet another flaming torch from BushCo, meant to tamp down anything but their propaganda, their agenda, their control.
The Senate vote becomes even more important. Have you written caffertyfile@cnn.com yet?
Should Congress pass legislation that would allow Bush a get out of jail free card on war crimes?
They came for the gays, they came for the leftists, they came for the journalists…. it is happening.
caffertyfile@cnn.com
LindaR @ 122
somebody needs to save this as a link for mary when she returns, it will make her feel loved.
It doesn’t surprise me in the least: some religious people, a minority but a significant minority, use their faith as a prop to assure themselves that God is in their side. This lets them justify the most heinous things, especially if those who will suffer are of a different faith.
“Rove is really good at putting the Dems in a no win situation.”
Simply not true. Opposition to torture polls above 50%.
All the dems have to do is come out strongly against the bill and explain that torture is: unjust, unamerican, unchristian, immoral, ineffective, and just plain wrong.
They could stop this bill, fire up the base, and let people know they are a party with convictions and real moral values.
Rove just threw a fast ball straight down the middle. This isn’t a lose-lose. The democrats are simply afraid to swing. And as such they don’t deserve our support.
dab from CT@102
Thanks for those comments. The Dems are being put into a no win situation as usual. The usual Rove move is to instigate an attack on deeply held left values, activate the base and make it that swing voters cannot bring themselves to vote non-Republican. Think of gay marriage. Here today, gone tomorrow.
As part of the process of deflating left activists one can expect Republicans will troll the blogs posing as Dems to spread disillusionment and defeat. (Please folks, I am not calling anyone into question. But given the new power of the netroots, and FDL particularly, we can expect dirty business).
In the Senate RIGHT NOW, wrangling continues.
Spector has introduced an amendment, co-sponsored by Leahy, Durbin(?) & Dorgan(?) (I think those were the last 2 names - not positive). His amendment would RESTORE rights of Habeas Corpus to the stinkerbill of the day.
Hard to tell how it’ll turn out, but some are still in there slugging, so stay tuned…
egregious — we will ALWAYS be friends.
What’s interesting about the stats is that in every group, it is bimodal, with “sometimes” and “Never” as the modes. Also, all the groups do not add to 100% “Secular” only adds up to 96% and “Catholic” adds to 102%. This is common in survey results, but one should be mindful of these anomalies and adjust accordingly.
prairie sunshine: done, and said that if Bush needs immunity, then he needs to stand up in public and say *why* he needs it, so we can have an honest debate on it. Also quoted - with credit! - Peterr on Jesus.
sofistic @ 137
Of course, Jews and Muslims are not independently reported.
proposed bumpersticker: Jesus Is A Liberal
Jack Cafferty up after the break…
Adie @ 135
Kyl is now trying to tear Specter’s position apart re: constitutional right of habeas for alien enemy combatants.
Specter retorts as above stated in #118.
now I am more embarrassed to be an american
real glad I gave up religion with the tooth fairy
and am wondering what countries don’t believe in war that will have me and my ilk
jello5929 @
134
Great, ok. Then what’s the alternative? More Republican control? Look….the Dems may infuriate you. They piss me off too - but they are the only game in town. The stakes are way too high to take your bat and ball and go home. Maybe they don’t deserve our support - but WE don’t deserve Republicans rubber stamping our way to institutionalized fascism.
Fight the Republicans. Excoriate the Dems with letters of outrage, call them names, tell them they’re being cowardly little sheep - but vote for them all the same. If they take control of at least the House, they may yet become emboldened.
As far as this “torture compromise” (that phrase makes me want to projectile vomit….disgusting!!) is concerned, the Supreme Court - even this one - may drop-kick this bill right off the books. It’s so unconstitutional it’s insane.
But we, all of us, have to think long term. The Republicans have been building their base since the bloody 60’s - we can do the same, and I don’t think it’s going to take anywhere near as long.
One more thing: Earlier I was feeling hand-wringingly desperate - but I’ve been inspired by the commenters here. I’m not giving up no matter what happens. If I have to go down, I’m going down swinging. Thanks everyone.
Yuk, Cornyn now, supporting Kyl’s position.
These two like the word “alien”.
Cornyn thinks the Detainee Treatment Act will cover alien unlawful combatants.
Of course, Cornyn doesn’t want to give them any rights at all, we knew that.
Uh-oh, Graham is interrupting to read further in O’Connor’s opinion and she added that the issue could be decided by a………..
you guessed it……military tribunal.
/Specter’s argument.
Cornyn now giving us horror stories about habeas petitions from Guantanamo. Grow up, John!
These guys just keep lying and lying and lying.
Thge bill expressely allows them to detain someone who is SUSPECTED of being an unlawful enemy combatant ie ALIEN.
So they can hold you as a SUSPECTED ALIEN (enemy combatant) indefinately, while they examine their navels trying to decide when, sometime in the future, they might decide your status.
Oh woops…you weren’t an enemy combatant after all…Maher Arar?
Lo siento.
I am going to blogwhore my post at kos
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....175136/951
It is related to the so called ESPN did not air GHWB being booed in NOLA …(not true)
Thanks, Katymine — I wonder if the facts will get as much interest as the speculation?
Besides all that is wrong with this whole thing, it is gonna make us so much less safe. What would any of us do if we had been illegally detained, mistreated, humiliated and/or tortured and our family had no knowledge of where we were? When and if your were released because you were innocent, what would you do?
I don’t think I would embrace my captors. Same stuff happens when we kill innocents in our wars and have this twisted foreign policy. People hate us for what we do. We are viewed very poorly all over the world. They don’t hate us for our freedoms at all, but I do believe the dislike and disdain will only grow. Now we, the people, with this legislation, are complicit and to blame.
katymine @ 149
Ta for the debunk katymine!
Now if Junya had actually showed up, they’d probably still be booing. *g*
immanentize @ 150
Here we have an issue that is to the soul of America and people get their pantyhose in a wad and go off the deep end thinking that ESPN would manipulate audio.
Get a grip…. there is way too many important things to deal with….
When America Fails to be Good, America fails to be GREAT
Here’s what just passed in The House. Bush got everything he wanted.
_____
H.R.6166 Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Introduced in House)
SEC. 5. TREATY OBLIGATIONS NOT ESTABLISHING GROUNDS FOR CERTAIN CLAIMS.
(a) In General- No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories.
SEC. 6. IMPLEMENTATION OF TREATY OBLIGATIONS.
(a) Implementation of Treaty Obligations-
(3) INTERPRETATION BY THE PRESIDENT-
(A) As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions and to promulgate higher standards and administrative regulations for violations of treaty obligations which are not grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
SEC. 7. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.
(a) In General- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by striking both the subsection (e) added by section 1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109-148 (119 Stat. 2742) and the subsection (e) added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law 109-163 (119 Stat. 3477) and inserting the following new subsection (e):
`(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
`(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.‘.
(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply to all cases, without exception, pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act which relate to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of detention of an alien detained by the United States since September 11, 2001.
_____
Sux.
immanentize @ 137
Now I’m happy.
Hand me my sword, I’m going back out!!
Adie @ 136
Leahy, Dodd, and Dorgan. Dodd steps up at last.
I’ll vote for incumbent Dems and do what I can to help elect challenger Dems. But we have to draw the line somewhere, and torture is a pretty bright line.
There is a comment in this thread from My Philosophy on Kos that I think is productive: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/27/13334/2619
Quoted here:
Kos, perhaps you might capture more flies… (8 / 0-)
Alright Kos, why not put your point in a bit of a different package? Most of us so-called “complainers, whiners, and bitchers” on this issue are simply very dispirited by this turn of events, even if we (grudgingly) must admit the point you made in this post that we should continue on our chosen course to take back the party.
So, rather than talk about how we should continue “taking back the party,” why not start by putting out a netroots/grassroots-wide plan to do just that? We want to take back the party, we want democrats with spine. Obviously, those Dems who vote for torture are without any spine on the face of it. Thus, why not post something like this:
“You may want to give up, but now is not the time. We are taking back our party, and the remaining Joe Liebermans in our party will point their spineless selves out to us by their torture vote. Therefore, we the netroots must hereby resolve that:
1. Every Democrat who votes for torture gets a huge target on their back. We hereby resolve that we WILL work to organize primary challengers against EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM in their next election.
2. Any Democrat who supports torture should be opposed for any party or congressional leadership position. We resolve to organize opposition to any such elevation or appointment to higher office for any of the “torture appeasers.”
3. Any Democrat who supports torture WILL be considered a pariah by the netroots, will not receive any endorsements, placements on act blue for fundraising, or any other show of support from the netroots or grassroots of the democratic party.
There’s a way to channel everybody’s anger in the same direction, preempting any bolting from the party and channeling our outrage into the productive “take back the party” goals we have already committed ourselves to at least since the election of Howard Dean as DNC chair. With this kind of statement you can demonstrate that we netroots DON’T and AREN’T going to take this cave-in lying down and will not stand for this. Second, it helps put pressure NOW on those in washington to vote against it.
by My Philosophy on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 11:34:52 AM PDT
thought I’d share the little onte I wrote to Froelich, who wrote the nasty piece about KO and his letter last night.
Dear Ms. Froelich:
I find it disturbing that while I am watching the Senate debate the issue of terrorism today, and Americans are daily told that we are under constant threat from unknown terrorists who are plotting to kill us in unimaginable ways, you find a terrorist threat worthy of a joking article. When Senators and House members were evacuated from their offices because of letters similar to the one Keith Olberman received last night, it was not much of a joke, and the entire country was on alert for further emergencies. As I have learned today, the investigation into the previous anthrax attacks is ongoing and such letters, real or soap powder or baking soda, are felonies. This could have happened to any popular television personality; it could happen to you or to me. Your article implies that you consider Mr. Olberman’s reaction excessive and somehow weak. Mr. Olberman may be more well-known than you are due to his television exposure, but I expect that as a reporter you have written things which have angered your readers. Can you really say that you would not call the police, whose decision it is to alert the HazMat team? If the police recommended it, would you refuse? And since there could be legal action in the future, would you not want documentation of your physical status, particularly if lab results were pending or incomplete?
Would you write this with the same tone if the recipient were not Keith Olberman, but Stone Philips or Dennis Miller?
Then would it look more like terrorism?
Sincerely,
immanentize @ 3:11 pm (#150)
Thanks for posting that, katymine. It’s difficult to buck “conventional wisdom”, which makes it all the more important to do when that wisdom isn’t really all that wise.
Let me add that, having seen a few sports events in the Kingdome, I can tell you that sound engineering there would be a nightmare. You get reflected sound from all over the place. I wouldn’t be surprised that simultaneous booing and cheering would sound very different from different locations in the stadium.
Prairie Sunshine @ 131
Just because you asked [ok 3 times] I found a computer that can do outgoing email and wrote cafferty. Also answered the 7-8 question about emergency paper ballots. Would be tres amusing if he uses my soundbite at 7:55. Will report.
jello5929 @ 157
Of course this will make us less safe. Maybe that is the plan. Less safe = more fear. More fear = more control over the people. Ad nauseam.
Great, ok. Then what’s the alternative? More Republican control? Look….the Dems may infuriate you. They piss me off too - but they are the only game in town. The stakes are way too high to take your bat and ball and go home.
Amen, Neil.
And I want to repeat a very effective way to go after the reins of power in the Democratic Party.
Everyone here should join local chapters of PDA and/or DFA.
Progressive Democrats of America — pdamerica.org
and
Democracy for America (don’t know their website address, but the wonderful Katymine is in this thread, and she should be able to tell us — she’s the leader of the local group here in our county in Arizona — go Katymine! Your energy is powerful and infectious!.)
Here in AZ, if it weren’t for these two rapidly growing interparty organizations, I don’t think AZ would have voted for Howard Dean for chair (which we did). In addition, we got progressive candidates elected (last cycle) to tip the balance in Tucson City Council. We also provide the energy for the grassroots campaigns of genuinely progressive candidates (like Herb Paine for the House of Representatives).
Once upon a time there was NO SUCH CRITTER as the “Democratic Leadership Council” — and then they took over the Democratic Party and its power structure.
We can — and will — do the same, especially now that virtually everyone can see that the DLC is a bunch of irrelevant, past-their-time, ineffectual DINOSAURS. [The dinosaurs themselves can’t see it, but everybody else can — we know where all the energy is, and it’s with US.]
Don’t throw in the towel on the party — that just guarantees defeat. Let’s TAKE OVER THE PARTY.
There are chapters of these two organizations virtually everywhere in the country — the meetings are exciting and energizing and full of determination. Join (you’ll like it!) and shake up your local Democratic Party structure from within!
[Katymine — I sang your praises the other night in the late night thread after the meeting we attended, after you had posted about it (sweet of you to mention us there!), but I think you went to bed before I got to that thread. What I forgot to do in my post, however, was thank you for the anti-torture post-cards you generously gave me and Mr. K8 for us to send in to our local GOP thug “representation.” Thank you again for making it easy for us to drop right off in the mail!]
Prairie Sunshine @
115
I did the same as Tim.
Neil at 145 “One more thing: Earlier I was feeling hand-wringingly desperate - but I’ve been inspired by the commenters here. I’m not giving up no matter what happens. If I have to go down, I’m going down swinging. Thanks everyone.”
We live to serve. For me it is my Christian upbringing to stand up and fight evil, plus my Scottish-Irish-Welsh ancestry. Don’t be passive! Take a stand!
Something eerie [or eyrie :)], an enormous flock of birds just settled in my backyard. They’re happily chirping away. At least it is a beautiful sound, compared with the neighbor’s antique leafblower @ 100 decibels, now mercifully quiet.
Struck down by despair*? Outflanked by the Republican nightmare? Take your rest, as long as you need, but then pick up your sword and get back into action. We need everybody! There will be no sitting around and complaining! Time enough to decide one’s relative purity when all this is over.
*Being mentally ill despair is my life. You cannot just give up. REACT to hardships by becoming tougher. DECIDE to conquer obstacles.
For now: FIGHT BACK!!!
Hi Mrs. K8… it was great meeting you. There will be a big stack of them to hand out at the DFA meeting on Oct 4th. I am going to create PDF’s of them and find a place to post them. Our DFA site is under construction right now.
BTW… send my diary some love, link @ 149
Thanks
egregious - don’t think of yourself as mentally ill. It’s a chronic condition, like arthritis or high cholesterol or high blood pressure. (I have bipolar/unipolar in my family, of the genetic persuasion.)
Katymine –
Aarghhh! I hate to have to let you down on this first request you have from me —
Your diary is terrific, but I can’t do anything over there since I’m not yet a registered member of dKos!
Yeah, I know it seems ridiculous not to be, I’ve been lurking over there for YEARS, since it was a much, much smaller outfit, a few software versions ago.
My online time is limited, as I’m spending so much time trying to get physically back in shape again now that surgeries are hopefully behind me, and this is my “home base” here at FDL (initially homebase was Eschaton, but I defected here after the trolls overran the joint and the conversation was no longer as thoughtful — FDL certainly is SPECIAL).
Now that I’m actually attending real live activist meetings, my online presence will be even LESS.
Still and all, I’ve been meaning to join dKos before the NEXT Yearly Kos Convention — if only as a formality. I wish it didn’t seem so complicated a system, what with people gaining and losing “trusted user” status and troll-rating and all that stuff.
I’m very sorry I can’t go help you out there. Forgive me!
Sniff, sniff…. :-(
Mrs. K8 @ 3:49 pm (#168)
Same here, I’m afraid. I notice that the comments so far have been positive, though. That’s a bit surprising.
For SharonW
I think you all …. thought it was important to get the truth out from someone who was there.
Today the local talk show host of our Air America station mentioned it…. I waited on hold for 75 minutes waiting to talk on air but did gave him the skinny…. and he knows my friend….
The issue of the boos is that we had discussed this days ago when it was rumored that GWB was going to be there too…. and most likely he would of been booed. I think someone with half a brain realized that GWB showing up in the very Dome where so much tragedy and neglect by the Feds… just was NOT good PR right now with everything else going on.
Katymine –
I just caught that obnoxious comment someone made on your diary, for you to “grow up.”
How rude! How ignorant!
Your diary was important, as it gives the facts as nearly as can be determined from someone who was an eyewitness. I hope other Firepups who ARE members of Kos can go rate you up!
p.s. are you also in the teevee biz in some capacity (if it’s not too nosy of me to ask)?
Losing Faith in America
America lies on the operating table this week.
Its chest cut open, its beating heart exposed.
The administration longs to do surgery.
It claims there is something wrong with America;
It claims that the very foundation of our laws:
The right of the accused to face their accusers,
Is not good enough to keep us safe…
(From what?)
To listen to the administration, we are to believe
That America is broken;
That the Constitution won’t let the administration do its job
By keeping if from spying on Americans without oversight.
The administration also claims that
There is something wrong with America’s morality;
That in order to save America we must first lose our soul:
By torturing and abusing fellow human beings.
America lays bloodied this week;
Rushed to the emergency room, laid bare on the operating table.
The administration claims that in order to save America
It must first rip the heart from her.
But no surgery is needed, America is not broken…
A principle was not forgotten, a mechanism was not overlooked.
No, there is nothing wrong with America.
America would be as fit or fitter than ever
If it only had an administration, a Congress
That had not lost faith in America.
.
well said, spek.
darkblack @ 170
WOW! Thanks, darkblack, that’s great.
Can you add in the line “Is this okay NOW?” Or am I pressing my luck? You already got me to open Paint Shop Pro, which in turn has set me to wondering if my good friend who loaded my computer’s second hard drive with goodies gave me PhotoShop as well. PSP is SO unintuitive, although I’ve gotten some things out of it at work when I had lots of time on my hands.
Thanks again, sweetie!
darkblack @
170
that choked me up…
obama standing up for habeas corpus!?? c-span2 right now… what’s happening? i thought debate was done for today? any experts out there to explain?
Mrs. K8 @ 172
The funny comment about me growing up… I am a 55 yr old grandmother…. how much growing up do I need to do?
And no, I do not work in TeeVee….. I just play someone who does … na… just the boyfriend works in the industry. He did the 1996 ReThug Convention back to back right after the Atlanta Olympics for the brand new Fox News. Boy does he have stories.
TeeVee for those who do the work to get it on the air is Not glamorous…. for the Acadamy Awards, my guy is out in back by the dumpsters in a Tux crawing under the 18 wheeler trailer fixing cables… but the look on James Woods face seeing a TeeVee guy in the the bathroom with a Tux and work boots and leather gloves…. Priceless …. ;)
selise @ 4:27 (#177)
I think the Senate is still debating. The House passed their version of the bill this afternoon.
http://www.bgladd.com/Porter4Torture.jpg
.
BobbyG @ 180
I like it. The typefaces seem to match, too.
Cujo359 @ 181
I took the gif image right off his website into my graphics program.Tried to match the font pretty close.
_
Darkblack, if you’re still out there. While I got an up close look at the graphic in PSP, I think you misunderstood me.
While that image worked as well on another level, when I referred to keffiyeh, I meant like this. As you can see, the shock value of associating the arab headwear would make the connection to torture and crucifixion more immediate.
Hello all,
Please don’t use that false name again. Jesus is a fantasy created to defeat my efforts by deceiving and deluding the world by confounding the truth and much ancient wisdom. If you’re patient, I have produced stunning and comprehensive proof. Are you ready to finally end all of this evil?
Why do religious leaders and followers so often participate in and support blatant evil?
The time is long past to stop focusing on symptoms and myriad details and finally seek lasting solutions. Until we address the core causes of the millennia of struggle and suffering that have bedeviled humanity, these repeating cycles of evil will never end.
History is replete with examples of religious leaders and followers advocating, supporting, and participating in blatant evil. Regardless of attempts to shift or deny blame, history clearly records the widespread crimes of Christianity. Whether we’re talking about the abominations of the Inquisition, Crusades, the greed and genocide of colonizers, slavery in the Americas, or the Bush administration’s recent deeds and results, Christianity has always spawned great evil. The deeds of many Muslims and the state of Israel are also prime examples.
The paradox of adherents who speak of peace and good deeds contrasted with leaders and willing cohorts knowingly using religion for evil keeps the cycle of violence spinning through time. Why does religion seem to represent good while always serving as a constant source of deception, conflict, and the chosen tool of great deceivers? The answer is simple. The combination of faith and religion is a strong delusion purposely designed to affect one’s ability to reason clearly. Regardless of the current pope’s duplicitous talk about reason, faith and religion are the opposite of truth, wisdom, and justice and completely incompatible with logic.
Religion, like politics and money, creates a spiritual, conceptual, and karmic endless loop. By their very nature, they always create opponents and losers which leads to a never ending cycle of losers striving to become winners again, ad infinitum. This purposeful logic trap always creates myriad sources of conflict and injustice, regardless of often-stated ideals, which are always diluted by ignorance and delusion. The only way to stop the cycle is to convert or kill off all opponents or to end the systems and concepts that drive it.
Think it through, would the Creator of all knowledge and wisdom insist that you remain ignorant by simply believing what you have been told by obviously duplicitous religious founders and leaders? Would a compassionate Creator want you to participate in a system that guarantees injustice and suffering to your fellow souls? Isn’t it far more likely that religion is a tool of greedy men seeking to profit from the ignorance of followers and the strife it constantly foments? When you mix religion with the equally destructive delusions of money and politics, injustice, chaos, and the profits they generate are guaranteed.
Read More…
…and here…
Peace…
Veterans running for office, not sure if only Fighting Dems, NOW on cspan 2. The stories are heartbreaking about how the administration has abandoned seriously wounded soldiers and sailors in their districts.
SharonW @
183
I see
Katymine,
Just left a comment in your diary.
Sheesh - people have a need for conspiracy. I’m glad you tried to set the record straight.
Mary,
I hope you’re still amoung us. This day will only become darker if we lose you.
darkblack, OMG, that last image is tragic. Kind of like this day.
I called both of my (Minnesota) senators in D.C. today to ask where they stood on these bills. I was told that they were still formulating their positions. I told the staffer in no uncertain terms that I considered this bill to be against all standards of decency, morality and faith and that I expected them to oppose this bill.
I too am dismayed by the apparent posture of Christians (of which I consider myself to be) supporting inhumane and degrading treatment of POWs and detainees who have not been afforded minimal due process. But I am reminded by the dismal record of “Christian” Western culture into relatively recent times that used such methods. The Church in the Inquisition of the Middle Ages to be sure, and in our country, the witch hunts in the 17th centuries. But even today, people bring civil rights actions against police and other law enforcement officials for such treatment. I was at a continuing legal education class in August where the speaker, a well known Baltimore trial lawyer, showed the attendees a tape of a cicil rights trial in which his client had been physically run into a wall by a Sheriff’s deputy. The man was left a quadroplegic. The jury, not to mention the attendees, did not have difficulty accepting this shocking the conscience or thinking that justice warranted the $40 million award he received. This man had a lawyer and a trial.
Once we begin to rationalize the cruel and inhumane treatment of one group of people, how long will it be before we can rationalize such treatment of others? The Geneva Convention, like all international law, like all morality, is based on a principle of “comity” or, if you will, doing unto others and you would have them do unto you. We cannot allow a group of sophistical pettifoggers like John Yoo or Alberto Gonzalez undo what the experience of centuries of human suffering has wrought.
Prairie Sunshine at 81: without going into detail, I want to say that it is a myth that “the Catholic bishops” as a group called for Catholics not to vote for Kerry. Some few bishops did that. Most said very clearly that it was not their business. No policy was issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
If you go to the website of the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops you will find a letter dated September 19th, 2006 stating the policy of the Conference on torture, its heading is something like “On the Ethical Treatment of Detainees.” It is as strongly and clearly against torture as most of us would wish it to be. There are lots of those letters, going back to 2003 when they opposed the war in Iraq.
If you rely upon the mainstream media to tell you what the Catholic bishops think, you will be misinformed.
jello5929 @
97
Exactly!!! Exactly!!!
It’s obvious the Dems in power won’t fight the good fight by themselves. If they can’t fight this fight we can’t rely on them for anything OTHER than not being as bad as the repubs.
Support good Dems - make defectors pay. Make it public, stake our position. SOMEONE has to have guts!
darkblack @ 186
Darkblack, that was magnificent! Big, wet, deep kisses to you, baby.
Now, that needs to be used somehow. But how?
Hmmm, if the Dems are unable to stop the Repugnants from passing some crap version of this bill, perhaps it can be used as a basis for pro-Dem advertising of some sort?
I speculate that Jesus would say this
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Ok, I just got home, it’s almost 11:45 pm, this thread is way-EPUd, I haven’t had the chance to look at anyone else’s comments, and probably no one will even see this post, but I’ll ask anyway.
This survey question presupposes that “important information” can or might be gained by torturing “suspected terrorists”.
What would the responses have been if the question had instead included the (true!) caveat that under torture people will often say anything they think the torturers want to hear, so that important information is rarely gained from using torture, although it does have the adverse effect of totally trashing the reputation of the torturing government?
Just saw this thread, and decided to toss something here; let it find its own place.
Barack Obama and I happen to be of the same denomination. More, his pastor is a sort of friend of the family, as it were. Therefore I know the Senator knows this hymn:
I may now have lost all hope. Sites like this — the energy, the insight, the snark — bouyed my spirits in these dark times. BUt in the back of my mind I again expected to be stabbed in the back by the Kerry wing of our one-party state. And indeed, Sherrod Brown voted for torture. What is the point of all this “Blue America”, etc? As a people we have lost our moral compass. I fear that, as with slavery, this will be regained only after trauma.
The roman empire tortured Jesus, he did not get to face his accusers, and was brutally executed without evidence.
Oh…and he supossedly “confessed”.