Both here and at dKos, there’s a lot of Sunday school shaming of people going on. Take it from me, that’s counterproductive. Kos has practically twisted himself into a pretzel trying to rationalize what amounts to accepting torture. Sorry guys, that just won’t fly.

The issue is very simple: habeas corpus and protection from cruel and unusual punishment is a basic American right. Tinker with this in any way, and the game is over, period.

Accordingly, I agree with everyone who says torture-loving Democrats are dead to them. Any Congressman or Senator who does NOT try to stop this bill is dead to me forever. And I’ll stay home in 2008 if the Democratic nominee happens to have voted for this travesty. I swear I will.

This is it. I’m off the reservation for good. They have to EARN MY RESPECT from here on out, and as of now, they don’t have it.

I don’t really care for the hoots and calls of “trolls!” and charges of “backstabbing” myself, but I think the concerns and opinions of those of us who have not only had it but have HAD IT are valid.

As JHF and others have stated, these are central, CORE values– these are ideas, legislative concepts, and the letter and spirit of this country that our Constitutional Forefathers constructed. I can fully understand why some of you will not acknowledge the Democratic Party, why you will not contribute another dime, and why you are full of outrage– because I feel the same.

This doesn’t mean that we quit fighting– I DO agree we can’t give up. But– this is a moral Rubicon, and we are, as a nation, about to cross it, perhaps irreversibly.

For those of you who have children, if your children break a cardinal family rule, or behave so atrociously, do you simply shrug your shoulders and say, “No problem?” You’ll still give them their allowance. You’ll take the family to Disneyland (and yes, I know, Disney is the Evil Empire right now– this is merely for the sake of *illustration*).

No, of course not– you punish them. This is how some of us feel– we’re not letting the Democrats have their allowance. We’re not taking them to Disneyland. Why should we allow them to just sit back and do nothing, and then “reward” them anyway?

That said, I like the idea one commenter (forgive me for not remembering your handle!) had, of taking the fight to the rank and file on the other side. This is something that should have been done way before, not now at the 11th hour, but I think we need to do it from now on (and I pledge to do my part): go to those Red State voters, those in the 33%, and try to reach them– explain that this goes beyond social and economic issues, that the Constitution itself is not and should not be a partisan issue. What does it mean to be an American? How do we define our national values in terms of Constitutional rights and guarantees, and the spirit thereof? Try to reach them BEYOND wedge issues, BEYOND pocketbook issues– try to connect with them as fellow Americans.

Because that is what we have left– our common identity, our common roots, our common heritage. The United States is our collective family– we can’t turn our backs on it. THAT is the message we must spread.

WE WILL WIN. If not now, then in the future.

DON’T GIVE UP. FIGHT TWICE AS HARD.

The bottom line is if they really felt it was important to stop this bill from passing they could and as of date they haven’t. I don’t believe a single Dem should be congratulated for trying unless they have taken every available action at their disposal which means every Dem who voted against this should be prepared to stand up and Filibuster!

Yup. Up to and including setting themselves on fire in the chambers.

The issue is very simple: habeas corpus and protection from cruel and unusual punishment is a basic American right. Tinker with this in any way, and the game is over, period.

Accordingly, I agree with everyone who says torture-loving Democrats are dead to them. Any Congressman or Senator who does NOT try to stop this bill is dead to me forever. And I’ll stay home in 2008 if the Democratic nominee happens to have voted for this travesty. I swear I will.

This is it. I’m off the reservation for good. They have to EARN MY RESPECT from here on out, and as of now, they don’t have it.

Heir of Patriots @69 – this is not a bill that an amendment will fix. It needs to die. Get a stake through the heart. Burned to ash.

A few last minute speeches – when they have been asleep at the wheel since the Hamdan deicsion, much less the last two weeks, is just theater.

I think Mary’s point is that this is a bill to gut the War Crimes Act of 1996, which makes war crimes federal crimes, and to retroactively indemnify members of the Bush administration for the war/federal crimes they’ve committed already. The only way to save the War Crimes Act and to keep Bush a federal criminal is to block this bill, however that might be done.

If at some point our government decided that it was costing them too much money to house and feed us, they could ponder a “final solution.” The nazis decided that it would cost them less money to gas and burn the jews than shoot and bury them. In their minds, it was just a responsible financial decision.

I fear that the Republicans redefined “enemy combatant” specifically because they want to torture and kill dissenters. Given the latest NIE Report warning about leftist dissenters on the internet, what other reason could they have had to change the language?

A little earlier I wrote about moving to another country because I’m so disgusted that anyone, whether Republican or Democrat, would vote for this awful bill. Now, I’m thinking that I better move out of this country to avoid being disappeared, seriously.

This business of amending the indefensible strikes me as sleight-of-hand. Outright opposition is what’s truly necessary. Why not fight the passage of the goddamned thing, tooth and nail, in unified fashion?

Heartsick is what I am.

A question from a foreigner:

If this legislation passes the Congress (the particular piece everyone is up in arms about), can someone take it to the Supreme Court to try and get it declared unconstitutional?

If any similar but unidentical legislation passes both House and Senate, the bills must be reconciled. Once they agree, or if the 2 bills as passed are identical, they are sent to the President and signed into law. Once signed, a law can be challenged in court, but not directly in the Supreme Court – it starts out in lower courts.