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Rep. Nancy Pelosi gets her cranky on while speaking on the floor of the House today — "This bill does violence to the Constitution." So does Rep. Louise Slaughter, Rep. Ike Skelton, Rep. Alcee Hastings and Rep. Doris Matsui. (All are YouTube links, FYI.)
Sens. Dick Durbin and Carl Levin have been exceptional today in the Senate as well — standing up for the rule of law and the need for habeas corpus and judicial review.
At times like this, I turn to Digby:
By now probably everyone knows that the torture bill that’s working its way through the Senate is even worse than the one they crafted last Friday. It’s so bad that they are now saying it has "drafting errors" when something particularly egregious is pointed out. One wonders how many other "drafting errors" will wind up in this sloppy, hurried mess. They are rushing it through without anybody knowing what they hell it really says…
"Actively assisting Al-Qaeda or terrorists." One assumes that would be stuff such as giving "material support." Like the guy who was arrested for selling Hezbollah TV as part of a satellite TV package. You know the type. (The good part is that rightwing welfare queens are on the case "helping" the government track down these dangerous terrorists. Lucky for us the far right is so level headed, isn’t it?)
And then there’s this. And this.
I don’t know why the Senators are even pretending to know what’s in this bill. One of the most important pieces of legislation in recent American history is being put together in the dead of night and hurried through the congress for political reasons. It’s a constitutional clusterfuck.
The vote is going to happen and it’s going to pass. But I can’t help but wonder if the momentum wouldn’t have gone the other way if some of the Democrats who constantly exhort the rank and file to be more friendly to religion and values and morals had stood up and said no. Imagine if Barack Obama had staked out a leading position against this legislation making the explicit argument that it is immoral and unamerican to torture. That would have gone farther to demonstrate our respect for religious values than his frequent process talk and scolding could ever do.
Or imagine if Holy Joe Lieberman showed even one tenth the righteous indignation toward this torture legislation that he showed toward president Clinton’s personal affairs. Imagine if the great centrist hawk, the man of morals and religious sincerity whom the Republicans have anointed as a principled example of a Democrat who understands the stakes in the war on terror, went to the floor of the senate…
There are a number of Democrats who are standing up as patriots today. Enormous thanks to all of them. Let’s take some time to thank them today — those of you who are watching proceedings in the House and the Senate, please make note of who we ought to thank, and I’ll make sure we get that done in the days to come.
And thanks to all of you for being such patriots and calling your legislators as well.
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NANCY!
FITZ, too!
FITZ!
It does violence to more than just the constitution (though this is a great soundbite), it does violence to every single American, whether subject to it’s provisions or not.
Time to start making a new future
Thanks for staying on top of this Christy. You rock.
So do you, Pach. I despaired for a moment.
OT – Lieberman.
Possibly extremely important point about Lieberman’s comment yesterday that he hadn’t read the NIE.
I pulled this comment from comment section of the official Lamont Campaign Blog. I think it needs to be seriously highlighted to the public. Here it is:
“Lieberman, as a member of the Senate Committee on Armed Services had access to the NIE report in April, but did not bother to read it. Why not?”
If it is true that Lieberman has had access to the NIE for months but has not read it (something I have not confirmed) it would be damning evidence that he really only cares about maintaining his delusions of what is going on in the war of terror – not in finding out the truth.
Can anyone confirm that Lieberman has had access to the NIE – prior to the recent leak -due to his membership on the Senate Commitee on Armed Services?
Warner up.
Says that mebbe the legislation will end up in SCOTUS one day.
just got off the phone with a Menendez staffer
short version:
NJ Progressive
“What is the senator’s position on the torture bill?”
staffer
“The senator is not going to take a position on a bill that is still being changed.”
my question
“Is the senator going to condemn torture, and any bill that condones torture?”
staffer
“I’ll pass along your comments to the senator.”
angie @
8
Is anyone following the House debate on C-SPAN?
Louise Slaughter is another heroic one!
(Her floor speech, a real scorcher, is up on dKos.)
Dear God, my heart is in my mouth today.
I promised to do several hours of phone-banking from home today for local candidates, and will do it.
But it’s so hard to be energetic about it when the infrastructure of dictatorship is going up all around us, and the construction crew is working furiously, overtime.
Nicely done, Christy. Warner says the most important thing is to be able to continue this program and get real-time intelligence. I disagree. I think the most important thing in this discussion is to remember who we are as Americans and that we have never in our history of wars felt we needed to consider legalizing torture or removing basic legal rights of detainees. Even Saddam is getting a trial.
I am so sad.
Just so sad. I’m going to go get drunk right after work today.
And then I am going to start taking names. Every single democrat that voted for this abortion, every mealy-mouthed democrat that talked big and did nothing, is now in my line of fire.
Obama’s the first one: I’m particulalrly peeved at this fella who talks so much about morals and values and then hides like a little bunny rabbit when the difficult choices come up.
Robert Andrews is also on the list, Democratic Rep from NJ who voted for the bill, because it was better than nothing. Andrews, your day is done. My entire family is going to work to have you painted as a republican collaborator. You’re fucking done, and going back home as soon as we can retire your ass.
As for the rest of the dems, I am only supporting those who walk the walk. Harry Reid? Motherfucker, you can go to hell. You are DEAD to me now.
Thank you Christy, Pach, Jane, T-Rex, Mary and everyone working this! This is the future of our country we’re talking about. Few in the various intel services want or condone this kind of abuse of power. This is totally CYA for the folks at the top.
No offense to any of her constituents in CA, but I really have lost confidence in Pelosi. Maybe I’m attributing the flaw of the whole Dem leadership to her, but overall she (and they) have been ineffective. These speeches are good, but I want some hard ball action. I’m tired of the Dems in Congress rolling over.
Levin has spoken. He spelled it out, chillingly. There is no excuse, none, for any “Democrat” in the Senate to fail to support a filibuster of this clearly unConstitutional (per Levin) “compromise” bill.
The bill was first put before the Senate today as an amendment to the border fence legislation. Frist and Reid were working off the floor on whether the bill could be put before the Senate as a stand-alone bill or whether (presumably) a hold would be placed by a Democrat to prevent that without 60 votes first being obtained to get it to the floor. I believe an agreement has been reached, but I didn’t catch what it was, because I missed Frist’s comments on the floor.
At any rate, debate will now proceed on the compromised torture bill – some hours’ worth, and five amendments will be allowed. Pat Leahy has been given 45 minutes to speak, and as angie pointed out, Senator Levin will be offering the Armed Services Committee version of the bill as a substitute amendment. Levin acknowledges that the committee bill still has a major problem with regard to stripping of habeas protections, so further amendment will absolutely be required should the substitute bill succeed in passing.
Mr. John Warner of Virginia has now risen to announce, on the Senate floor, his “support” for this violation of our United States Constitution. Shame is far too mild a word to use to condemn these atrocious authoritarian acts, and this naked abdication of the oath of office these public servants took to uphold and defend our Constitution.
Levin introduces the original A.S. Committee bill as a substitute amendment for the compromise bill …
With all of the real problems this country has and these criminals are doing this to stay in power is nauseating. This attack on the Constitution is never going away and will now always be a problem to deal with. Even if every provision is eventually reversed, the fact that it passed a Congressional vote will be the genie that can never be put back. It’s like the first A-bomb test, once theory became reality, it can never go away.
Christie, it’s Doris Matsui, not Helen.
In addition to all of the very bad things this bill does, is the fact that it is, by the uncourageous actions of our Dems, taking the energy out of the Dem base.
I can see it in the comments today.
Very busy. Gotta go.
I have always been proud to be an American. That they are even discussing allowing torture in the US Congress — much less most likely voting for it — fills me with shame.
Thanks for highlighting Digby’s post, Christy. I’ll get in touch with my Senators and Harry Reid again. All of this “me-tooism” — particularly on such an issue — will do more harm than good, politically.
This bill may be even worse than we think it is. According to Glenn Greenwald’s post today at salon entitled “The Intelligence Report Cites “Leftist” Groups as a Terror Threat” the NIE report states “anti US and anti-globalization sentiment is on the rise. This could prompt some leftest, nationalist or separatist groups to adopt terrorist methods to attack US interests.” Glenn writes, “There have been scattered reports over the last several years that the Bush administration’s anti-terrorism programs have targetted domestic political groups solely because such groups espouse views contrary to the administrations’.” The whole article can be reached through glenngreenwald.blogspot.com.
With the definition of enemy combatant and terrorist written so broadly, it is possible that anyone who opposes any policy position of an administration could fall under it. Would the loss of habeus corpus also apply in these cases? I keep remembering Ari Fleischer’s statement during a White House press conference that ‘people should be careful what they say.’ Or is my paranoia off the charts?
Ms. Smith, I would love your take on Glenn’s post on Salon, as you are an attorney. Thanks.
just got an email from the John Kerry list, with the subject title, “This is it”
i immediately opened it with anticipation… finally, a statement in defense of our consititution… it began: “This isn’t a time for rhetoric…”.
yep. another fundraising letter.
not good timing.
At the risk of being OT, I suggest the following for some of the campaigns based on Bush’s use of the straw person, “Some say, ‘. . . .’”
Some say “we’ve got to cut and run from the Constitution.”–I don’t; some say, “The war in Iraq will be seen as a comma.”–I don’t; some say, “We need to extend the powers of the military and our warriors against terrorism by allowing torture.”–I don’t. It is time to specially render those in office who say these things to the facilities they deserve, federal prisons. Thanks to all at the FDL site and those who post such provocative comments.
Levin pissed and now comparing and contrasting the committee and the compromise bill.
The UNANIMOUS Consent Agreement for this UNCONSTITUTIONAL bill:
3 hours for the debate (evenly divided, with 45 minutes reserved for Leahy – regarding his amendment – from the minority’s time on the main bill itself).
The five amendments to be offered:
Levin’s substitute bill (2 hours of debate, evenly divided)
Leahy/Specter/Dodd/Dorgan habeas amendment (2 hours of debate, evenly divided)
Kennedy amendment (1 hour of debate evenly divided)
Byrd amendment (1 hour of debate evenly divided)
Rockefeller amendment (1 hour of debate evenly divided)
pow wow @
26
The fix is in!
Tommy Yum,
If I decided to chuck it all after today’s vote and move to North Carolina and try to be a lucky lazy fellow, would you buy me a drink?
hmmmm, no Feingold amendment…
filibuster coming?
please? come on Feingold and Leahy.
“unanimous consent” to the debate schedule sort of says it all….
seems like levin has done his homework today…
It’s over. The official Democratic position is that torture is A-OK. Their official position is that secret, illegal evidence is A-OK. Their official position is that “evidence” acquired via torture is A-OK. Their official position is that the President is the sole arbiter of who is or is not an enemy deserving of torture (and what actions of torture are allowed by the Geneva Conventions…and even if they aren’t, too bad because you have no authority to ask that in court).
The Democratic party is officially dead to me. They are falling down on THE most important and dangerous bill to ever come before them in modern history. They couldn’t find it in their guts to fight against torture, gulags, arbitrary arrest. That is because they are, to a man and woman, totally empty inside.
I will not vote Democratic in the Fall because I have had enough and all I ever get from the Dems is more of the same. ENOUGH!
Aux barricades!!
nj progressive @
9
Same here, in so many words. Pretty pathetic for a guy trailing in the polls who needs GOTV and other support bigtime from people like us.
If the committee bill was the one Graham and Warner sponsored, then Levin is still floating untethered in the atmosphere because it was a horrible bill standing all on its own.
If there is another one, I’d have to see it. Considering Levin joined to CO-SPONSOR the PREVIOUS jurisdiction stripping bill, that also tried to surreptitiously include some amnesty provisions (the one that was euphemistically called the “anti-torture” bill) I have to say I don’t have faith in his proffer. If there is another, much better, bill that came through committee, I’llhunt for it, but if he’s referring to the Graham Warner bill,that was trash looking for a can.
PS – I don’t know what the Townhouse group is, so I’m sorry if I inadvertently joined in on something pissy, but the bus I thought was being referred to was the Dem party bus.
Pelosi is showing up way late on this and IMO they are just tossing out some words to appease so they can then say “oh, we tried” and if all they can try for is the Graham Warner bill, they are freaking brain dead morons.
immanentize @ 30
does that mean there will be no cloture vote?
please excuse my ignorance…
Brendan @13 –
I am so sad. Just so sad. I’m going to go get drunk right after work today.
——————-
I’m sure I will get drunk after work today too but … I’m not going to give up on the democrats right yet. They are the only bat I have now with which to bludgeon the Republicans. I may have to swallow hard and polish turds for a time but we’ll get that fixed too.
Unanimous consent on the debate schedule? Sigh.
I was getting all happy thnking just maybe, today was the tipping point.
DAmn
I found the text of these amendments proposed by Specter and cosponsored by Leahy. These amendments are attached to the Frist’s bill which covers the formation of military commissions and is itself an amendment attached to the Secure Border Fence Act. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell the page references don’t show up in the Thomas text.
SA 5062. Mr. SPECTER (for himself and Mr. Leahy) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed to amendment SA 5038 proposed by Mr. Frist to the bill H.R. 5061, to establish operational control over the international land and maritime borders of the United States; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:
SA 5063. Mr. SPECTER (for himself, Mr. Leahy, and Mr. Smith), etc.:
SA 5064. Mr. SPECTER (for himself and Mr. Leahy), etc.:
SA 5065. Mr. SPECTER (for himself, Mr. Leahy, and Mr. Smith), etc.:
The gist seems to be detainees get one shot at habeas corpus and that’s it. I believe Specter has further amendments which may transfer jurisdiction to a federal court “for the Armed Services”.
immanentize @
27
immanentize,
Why do you think so? You may be right, and scepticism is always healthy with this crew, but is seems to me this situation is still very fluid and unpredictable by anyone, even the admin hacks pushing this abomination…too many moving parts and an election coming up to call this one yet.
Mary @ 35
thanks for this… i was (probably stupidly) looking for any signs of conscience or moral courage.
Haralambos @ 24
To avoid the fallacy of the “strawman” it would be best to use actual statements made by those who should be on trial or serving time.
And where is the notoriously christian, moral, scolding Barak Obama in all of this? Does GOD sanction torture? Evidently he does. I don’t!
It amazes me that they’re making the same damn mistake they made in 2002–making a rush-vote on one of Bush’s ill-considered last-minute bills. Karl Rove really can play the Dems like a fiddle. Memo to Dems: That sound you hear is your base deserting you. There’s no point in voting for an opposition party that is unwilling to oppose.
lhp – it is a tipping point.
I swear to God it is.
It’s a bunch of God Damned nonsense so they can say they made a pretty speech and someone should like them for it.
No true effort whatsoever and I’m furious.
OT..The “base” is getting their marching orders. Hate mail sent to KO’s home contained white powder as a threat. New York post belittles KO for calling 911. pastdeadline.com
Quentin (#43): where’s obama?
at a rally in Maryland somewhere. raising money.
Fucking Coward Obama.
Frank Probst @ 44
And making the other same damn mistake — thinking that somehow if they don’t vigorously oppose something, or even if they support it, the Republicans won’t be able to attack them over it. Their attacks have nothing to do with reality, and even if the vote was unanimous in favor they’d still talk about the Dem speeches today in their fundraising letters.
What the dems should do is stall. Stall till the bill is dead. and then not leave town until AFTER midnight on Saturday.
Let the repubilcaans have an extra day of campaigning, our guys should stay and keep the chamber safe from a last minute bill or ammendment.
Mary @ 45
Absolutely correct Mary. All smoke and mirrors.
Levin just said “the bill before us” is (summarizing) unacceptable, and is giving a list of reasons why.
I am confused. Is he on the side of the angels or not?
Frank Probst @ 44
You’re right, Frank. Playing them for the fools they are. Unbelievable.
Has Feingold said anything? Could he stop it?
Praedor, why don’t you go and take a nice nap so you’re refreshed when the men in dark trenchcoats show up at 2:00am to take you to the rail cars? Or maybe spend your time getting your affairs in order so nobody else has to after you’ve gone to the camps?
‘Cuz really, I don’t see what the f*ck you are doing that is constructive here or in the last thread. Throwing away your vote is useless, as is your whining and puling.
Keep your chins up, Lakers. This bill is a battle; our fight is a war.
We need us to keep morale high amongst ourselves so we can continue the fight.
Wandering through Frist’s bill, I found this and had a WTF moment. So detainees can be tried for torture, but CIA interrogators? Not so much. BTW roughing someone up appears OK. A few bruises are allowed.
Mary @ 45
I should be furiuos, I’m just so freakin’ sad. When is one person in this damn party going to grow a set of balls! (pardon my language) Hell, tungsten steel ovaries would work fine too
I cannot believe it; maybe my eyes and ears couldn’t process that it is a Unanimous Consent Agreement.
this is horrible.
selise @ 23 – I got one of those also, and one from Boxer. Deleted – I’m not donating money to anyone who can’t stand up and filibuster and also stand up and vote against this.
Mealymouthed triangulators. Where are they going, and what will they do when the secret police start disappearing people? Will they say ‘it’s okay, anyone who disappeared was a bad person’?
Still POd….
Balrog – I wholeheartedly agree.
Rayne – Whining and puling are synonyms.
Kak @ 52
WHERE is Feingold? He didn’t even show up at Monday’s Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing on “Examining Proposals to Limit Guantanamo Detainees’ Access to Habeas Corpus Review”
The Leahy/Specter/Smith/Dodd/Dorgan habeas amendment will amend either the “compromise” bill if it holds up, or the committee substitute amendment that Levin is offering (and speaking to now), if it passes.
So the plan seems to be to try to get some Republicans to side with all the Democrats (or else!) to pass the committee bill substitute, and to then also pass the habeas amendment to make that committee bill acceptable. C-Span’s site has the bill language somewhere I believe. The committee bill passed Armed Services 15-9; the habeas stripping would have caused at least some of the 9 ‘no’ votes. I don’t recall/know what the other problems with it were (but remember that Frist threatened to filibuster that committee bill at the time, on behalf of Cheney and Bush, and that is how we ended up with the “compromise”).
selise – A filibuster (by either side) is still on the table.
Balrog, I’m trying hard, but I do get so bloody tired of defeatism.
And the number of battles in which many Dems were asleep is incredible, like The Real ID Act passed in March 2005 (it allows DHS to authorize the AG to suspend all laws to defend our borders without judicial review).
This bill isn’t one of the ones during which they slept, but it’s damned hard to tell what agendas they are working — and clearly, there are folks with agendas.
looseheadprop @ 11:50 am (#49)
If only. I think that if most Democrats in Congress were capable of this kind of sacrifice, this bill wouldn’t have been brought up in the first place. There are a few who are, of course, but there don’t appear to be anywhere near enough.
Uniqely Tim: “They are the only bat I have now with which to bludgeon the Republicans.”
Yeah, but dude, that bat is a Nerf bat. It doesn’t do anything. In fact it’s worse than useless: instead of bludgeoning republicans, that bat tends to hit whoever’s swinging it in their own face.
Steve @ 46
So, let me get this straight. KO gets ahem “anthrax” , nd Fitz gets a bomb scare?
Hmmmm, kinda makes those tin foil hat types who think Bushco blew up the twin towers seem less moony don’t it? Who uses terror to their benefit?
Certainly not Dems.
Not that I think even the source of all evil DarthCheney himself blew up any buildings, but that whole anthrax thing that Condi loves to bring up. We never did solve that one did we?
Oh, and who got intimidated besides Congress? The Media back when they were starting to question the Bush “my Pet Donkey” thing and then Poof! we have anthrax
Which Condi brings up at the oddst times. Still. You would think she would not want to mention it because they never caught anybody and it’s another Bushco failure. But I heard her talking about rcently and thought “how odd?”
EPU — uh, not now, buddy, lessons in semantics are definitely not going to cut it.
As p*ssed off as I am, were in the same room, you’d be lucky if I didn’t hit you with a blunt object.
looseheadprop @
56
As is so often the case, I am completely in line with both of you.
Just guessing, but I think what is happening is this:
Levin will first try to substitute the earlier “compromise” bill, the one before the Administration rewrote the original compromise by negotiating with Hunter over the weekend, so that that original becomes the basis for further consideration. Then each of the other amendments, which try to fix the problems in the original substitute, will be offered and debated.
The unamimous consent refers to how much time the Senate will debate each of these amendments. It is not, (my guess) a decision to limit debate on the final bill, whatever that is after the amendments are considered.
This is still very fluid. We have to hope that some/all of the amendments are accepted by the Senate. That will force a conference committee with the House. If none of the amendments is adopted, then it’s probably game over.
I’m confused now reading the post versus the comments and comments on the debate schedule.
When I called Durbin’s office they told me he was working hard to make sure the torture/anti-habeas bill was amended to ensure habeas and to ban torture. I’ve been pleased with Durbin’s actions on opposing Bush’s dictatorial power grabs and opposing the Iraq War, even if he hasn’t been a rhetorical rabble-rousser he votes the right way.
It sounds like some of the Democrats are doing what they can do to stop this. No? Are most of them rolling on this issue? (I know from quotes it sounds like Harry Reid is.)
Rayne @ 62
I’m as guilty as anyone; I believe I’ve been feeling so flush with all of our minor victories and good polling news that it stings double when things look grim.
But it’s (bill) not over yet. Remember Belushi’s rallying speech at the Delta House. And if this one doesn’t go our way, we’ll redouble on the next.
I hope I’m not sounding Pollyanish, ‘cuz Balrogs are never Pollyanish.
scarecrow:
I do not see any scenario where any amendment is accepted — unless Spector or Collins or Snowe and a few others decide they want to mess it all up.
If it is down to the Dems, it is done.
A question for those who have a better sense of smell than I, but do the comments “If this bill passes I will not vote for a Democrat” have the scent of Troll shit? If not, then I ask forgiveness from those I have offended.
Hi imm. Hi Mary,
we all haven’t been together for a while. I missed you guys.
OT any word on the “bomb threat” at the courthouse today. Did they get an all clear?
You know what gets blown up if the courthouse goes? Even if all the people get out? All those carefully marked and redacted documents. Months of hard work.
selise @
23
yeah I got that too. I called immediately and told them that unless the torture bill is stopped, by any means necessary, the democrats can forget about any money from me.
Today must be “give us money day” because I got emails from Kerry, Boxer, and Obama, and not one of them mentioned torture, or the prevention thereof.
Iyt’s all smoke and mirrors, as someone said. Glenn Greenwald was saying last night that the torture bill is a done deal, and would pass. What we’re watching now is the democrats do a kabuki dance so they can say “we tried” at the end of the day.
but they’re not trying, and thus do not deserve our support.
Brendan – You got a point there. I did try out some out of the independents like Kinky Friedman for TX Gov. but he has gotten into trouble recently for talking racist talk and I had to forego that one. Nonetheless, I will carry on and at least try to get rid of some Republicans _wherever_ and _however_ I can do it. ( legally, of course )
looseheadprop @ 73
I’d guess that more (God forbid) important docs than the Scooter documents would be destroyed.
Just sayin’.
Such an ugly, ugly day.
It must always be remembered. It must be marked in the calendars of Americans for generations to come.
The day torture trumped the Constitution.
What will this day be called? Waterboarding Wednesday? Moral Depravity Day?
A question for those who have a better sense of smell than I, but do the comments “If this bill passes I will not vote for a Democrat” have the scent of Troll shit?
Either a troll or a very stupid person. Sometimes the lesser of two evils is the only rational choice.
angie @ 57
Don’t read too much into that — it’s unanimous consent on how they’re going to conduct the debate, not on the result. (And technically, nearly everything in the Senate except voting is done by unanimous consent.)
looseheadprop @ 11:58 am (#65)
Hmmmm, kinda makes those tin foil hat types who think Bushco blew up the twin towers seem less moony don’t it?
Not really. When you hold to an opinion despite clear evidence to the contrary and no real evidence in support, you’re loony. Q.E.D. ;-)
pow wow and scarecrow, thank you for the help in trying to understand what i’m watching on c-span.
Off topic but Sweet Jesus I hate NPR.
Media Matters beats up on Mara Liason deservedly so. But I just listened to TOTN and their political editor Ken Rudin(sp?). Anyway it turns out that no matter what happens it’s good news for the rethugs. No immigration bill good for republicans, war in Iraq going south good for rethugs.
Oh and they had Katharine Harris on, the host let her spew her crap for 3 minutes and never challenged her on anything she said.
Sending a check to WBAI-FM they run Democracy Now!
Levin’s making it very clear that if we allow torture, our military men and women will be tortured too. We have to protect them.
What a sad day. The senate is actually debating the value and risks of torture.
Completely OT-the CIPA conference to go over all the stuff Team Libby wants to use at trial resumed at 1:30pm (et) according to the WaPo.
I called my senators (Levin is one of them) & my representative to tell them to vote “no”–I told the clerks that the voters will be watching how they vote on this Bill.
Although I know the republicans can ram this through, even without the dems, I do hope they will do the right thing. Regardless of what happens–like Bill said, “At least I tried”…
According to Digby, the Republicans have broadened the scope of whom they may detain and torture without recourse from “anyone engaged in hostilities against the United States” to “anyone who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States.”
This is extremely disturbing because whistleblowers, journalists who report what the whistleblowers have to say, just about anyone who posts articles on this site, and people like me who post comments could be regarded as “purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States.” Such is the nature of dissent, for God’s sake!
I don’t trust anyone in this administration to draw a distinction between purposefully and materially defending the Constitution and the Bill of Rights by criticizing, demonstrating, and, if necessary, rioting against this criminal administration versus “purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States.”
THIS IS UTTER BULLSHIT. THE REPUBLICANS WILL USE THIS PIECE OF GARBAGE TO DISAPPEAR DISSENTERS INTO CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
According to the article I linked to @83, no, the secured documents were one of the first things to be moved. As soon as they started evacuating the building.
LHP — I have a plan and I need your help (I already talked to Mary). Can you send me a hello at jsjude at comcast dot net?
Thanks….
All clear on the bomb. When I worked for a Fed Judge, I remember the grey pants peeking into trash cans and plant containers. We went to the Judge and said, “did you know the grey pants are looking for a bomb?” He hadn’t yet heard — but the courthouse was very quickly cleared after he did.
Thanks to the many commenters who are helping to bolster our weary spirits. It’s a marathon, folks, not a sprint. We’ve been training for this, but there are stumbles. We will pick each other up, and help each other as we continue. I wish everyone courage. I know we can win in the end.
TheOtherWA @ 12:07 pm (#86)
Anyone else start hearing the Mission Impossible caper music just then?
“We’re here to pick up the secret documents.”
“We just gave them to the last group of guys dressed in marshal’s uniforms.”
Redshift @ 79
thanks, Redshift. I am praying for something unprecedented to happen here since the entire debate on this subject is unprecedented and shameful.
Huckleberry up now.
Mission Accomplished Day!
Rayne – You are right, but I did it anyway.
Balrog @ 70
Balrog my darlin’
If they get the retroactive pardon provision in for the war criminals, we have lost the war.
It’s a stain our collective souls can can never be purged with prosecution of the torturers.
That is what makes me sick. Balrog, all the rest of the bill can be repealed and the world returned to staus quo anti, except the retrocative immunity from criminal prosecution. Even if the law is repealed, the immunity/pardon lives on for those who committed acts between the start dat in 1997 and the day of repeal.
I may have to leave my keyboard to vomit. This is really happening? In the United States? Land of the Free and Home of the Brave?
Sickening. Sickening unto death
brendan @ 74
They are all coming up a aginst a campaign filing deadline and there are bragging rights (and matching funds) that come with itting certain money quotas.
I heard from both Kerry and Bill Clinton today begging for bucks.
none given.
Steve @ 72
no, i think it’s despair. an expression of despair in the pain of the moment. and the more a person is emotionally attached to the democratic party, the constitution and a positive idea of our country – the greater the pain of the moment is likely to be.
i propose we all try to be especially gentle with eachother right now.
This talk of not sending money to Dems. or not voting for a Dem because of the torture vote is disturbing. We are in a back alley knife fight with the Repugs. I will give money to defeat my DINO in the ‘08 primary but will vote for him in the general election. A sad state of affairs. At the moment the two people I despise most are Ralph Nader and Colin Powell. They new better.
Larry Johnson has a letter to Senate Judiciary Committee up that’s worth a look
Link
Imm
Give me aminute to fish out my fdl email address (I think I forgot it)
Thanks Cujo@89. I needed a giggle today. Rueful giggle, but I’ll take what I can get, ya know?
Damn, now that theme song is gonna be running in my head all day.
looseheadprop @ 99
No hurry at all — just an idea for the future….
Redshift @
79
I read everything into it. See, right there is a weapon to use to stop this bill but the Dems don’t use it. All they have is a couple of days. That’s it. To help run out the clock all they need to do is NOT give unanimous consent on ANYTHING. Make EVERYTHING require a long, vote-by-vote tally. No more unanimous consent!
The Dems aren’t using every tool in the box because they want to just shove torture (and their passive consent for it) under a rug. They can string this out, put secret holds, etc, to run out the clock and then use a filibuster, for which they DO have enough people to uphold unless they actually have Dems willing to actively vote for torture…
Re: beating back torture:
Stoller speak. You listen.
brendan @ 74
Brendan, I’m curious who your Senators are because you mentioned Obama. I don’t like Obama, but Durbin, the other Illinois Senator, has a long track record of doing right. I do not believe anything he’s doing to amend or oppose these bills is kabuki.
At this critical point close to an election, all our frustration with Democrats has to be channelled into requesting our Senators and Congresscritter to do the right thing, and making sure the GOP is defeated in both chambers, so we have legislative power to revoke these bills if they pass.
First things first. I refuse to go down without a fight! I suspect most FDL’ers won’t either. We know and must always remember defeatism is for losers.
looseheadprop @
49
Can they do that?
Mark B. @
78
Not when it comes to torture. There isn’t any such thing as a little torture being OK. There is no way to be slightly for torture and suspension of habeas.
I am serious. Torture is a deal breaker. For god’s sake, if torture isn’t enough to make you fight against anyone and everyone, be they GOP or Dem, then what exactly do you stand for? Torture is not a football in a game. Indefinite detention and secret evidence is NOT a football in a game. Nothing is as serious as this. NOTHING strikes to the core of what we supposedly stand for than this.
The Dems either pull out all the stops and stop this monstrosity or they are complicit.
windje @ 12:14 pm (#98)
Good link, and that’s quite a diverse group signing the letter, BTW. Not just a bunch of flaming liberals, although I’m sure that’s how they’ll be portrayed in certain circles.
just called DiFi’s office… she is still equivocating… “depends on the final language”… I said I expected her to oppose this in any way possible…
the phone answerer sounded a bit weary…. Keep calling!
lhp –
I wasn’t aware this was true. I understand that if Congress says doing x is not a crime, and thereafter I commit x, then Congress cannot come back later and say, “no, now we want to make x a crime, and scarecrow can be prosecuted for doing x when it wasn’t a crime.” That’s the ex post facto thingy, right?
But if I commit x at a time when x was a crime, and Congress later says, we won’t prosecute for x, then I can’t be prosecuted as long as that statute is in effect. But suppose Congress later comes along (or a court) and says, that statute is not valid; it’s repealed (or declared unconstitutional). In that case, can I still be prosecuted for committing x when doing so was a crime? I thought the answer was “YES.” Am I wrong?
Interestingly I read an article not too long ago about either Chile or Argentia doing just that, so that a prior amnesty statute was declared void, which allowed the government to charge and try officials who had help people “disappear,” but who thought they were home free because of the amnesty bill. Anyone recall that? Because if this is possible under US law, then neither the torturers nor those who authorized torture when it was/is a crime, can be fully protected for eternity.
Windje @ 98:
Yes!
(Now let’s hope the recipients read and understand it. Or maybe have someone read ti to them, really slowly. I believe Leahy gets it, though.)
Anyone, whether Republican or Democrat, who votes for this piece of shit deserves to die and never, under any circumstances, will get my vote. Today, I begin planning to leave this country forever. What a bunch of disgusting hypocritical and cowardly assholes. May they rot in hell forever.
Alison @ 77
I just got back from a certain Ivy League campus, where a loudish Demonstration was underway – someone holding up a large hand written sign, and I could hear several (male) voices loud enough to disrupt discussion in the history building just behind them. It was between classes and maybe 75 students were milling here watching what was going on. My first thought was Wow, political activism on campus finally, this is nice. As I walked toward the group I realized that the sign (and issue) was Jesus support. Maybe there was more to it than this (I was late to a meeting so couldn’t go much closer), but I don’t think so.
Steve @ 97
I will give no support to a pro-torture person under any circumstances. I will give no support to any pro-gulag person under any circumstances. I will give no support to anyone who backs suspension of habeas under any circumstances.
Some things are so core, so basic, so very important that they are beyond compromise. I am dead-set on this. I will NOT vote or support anyone or any party that supports torture, gulags, etc. Period. And, no, token resistance does NOT count. That is all we’ve gotten from the Dems for 10 years now, token resistance. They can’t come up with real resistance against one of the most unpopular presidents in history, one of the most unpopular congresses in history, then they do not deserve the reigns of control. They are unfit to serve the people and the Constitution if they do not pull out all stops to stop torture, gulags, etc.
No compromise.
As soon as this UnAmerican bill either passes or fails, we need to focus the attention back on IRAQ. This is the issue that resonates across the political spectrum.
IRAQ! IRAQ! ATTACCKKK!
Pachacutec @ 103
thanks pach – i called them both a few minutes ago… the phones were open…. and they took my call, even though i don’t live in ME (i explained that this was a vote for what it means to be an american, and so affected all americans and indeed the world).
please light ‘em up folks (politely, of course)
me to me,
OT (and if not around, someone pls give a heads-up)
Clarke says/writes of (very late) on 9/11 in ‘Against All Enemies’ at p. 26:
[bolding mine] sounds like there was a ‘plan’ to deal with ‘al Qaeda’ there, Condi…
looseheadprop @ 73
I’ve very much appreciated the comments that all three of you have posted. Thanks.
immanentize @
91
Oddly enough, the Senate homepage is celebrating — guess what — the Constitution today!!! If you get a chatty staffer, remind them of that. If you get a terse staffer (as I did chez Schumer; Clinton and Snowe’s lines both busy), this is a good reference to point out:
Human Rights First has a letter from 5 former Joint Chiefs of Staff from last week. So I said, look, I’m one constituent from [town x], but don’t just take it from me, PLEASE have a staffer read why Generals and former Joint Chiefs of Staff think that torture harms our national interests and endangers our troops, thanks…
Sen. Schumer has not yet taken a public position on this.
And to me, if Pelosi is swinging a little late, I’m still thanking G-d that she is coming in swinging.
Wigwam @ 105
Hell yeah. it’s called a fillibuster.
Just getting up and getting going in NZ. This is extremely discouraging to read and to contemplate.
When I was young, we knew we had no power in the halls of any government building, so we took to the streets. Now, as attempt after attempt to work through proper channels is frustrated, will people take to the streets? After the millions protested in Feb of 2003 and it faded away like a little puff on a sound machine, where did the protesters go?
Is the country now so large that taking the streets, as in Hungary or Ukraine, just not done? Why isn’t Congress right now ringed by angry citizens?
I’m across the ocean, so maybe I have no right to talk. But are we really going to concede the whole country to them? It is a beautiful land, with such sweet people. I love the prairies of Kansas, particularly at sunrise. The mysterious fogs blowing in from the Pacific at LaPush, Washington. The huge and glorious sweep of sky over Montana. Oh, the sweet bones of my grandparents in their graves on the little knoll at Ebenfeld, Kansas.
And the incredible courage of Ruby Bridges, long ago desegregating the New Orleans schools (If you haven’t seen the movie of Ruby Bridges, go see it and learn something about courage from a six year old). Read The Moral Lives of Children by Robert Coles.
We need to go back and read the best of literature from the fight for civil rights, like Coming of Age in Mississippi. We need to drink from the well of the courage of those who worked for freedom, not for three or five years, but for decades. Think of that legacy of centuries of abuse and yet out of that rose a clear and moral message, one which became visible and unmistakable, without violence.
Throw in the towel now? Go back and read Martin Luther King Jr. who knew a thing or two about persistence against the odds. Read, “It may not be in my lifetime….”
Huckleberry justifying the gutting of the War Crimes act…
“I am proud of it” (his legislation.)
Praedor Atrebates @ 113
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Imm sent you the email. Did you want an email address or are you trying to set up a call?
looseheadprop @ 123
I replied — no call (yet!)
FYI everyone: Angie Paccione, who is running for the CO-04, will be this evening’s guest for Blue America at 5:30 pm ET/2:30 pm PT. Hope everyone can stick around for the chat — Howie’s got some great information for you on her candidacy, and Angie has a real shot at turning this district blue! :)
klyde @ 82
Agree with you on Ken Rudin. Must be a Tomlinson hire…
Feet to fire time.
Torture is for scumbags. Period.
Any elected official that signs off on torture, regardless of linguistic permutations and connivance, needs to be hit hard in the pocketbook and at the polling booth, where it counts.
Starting now.
Lindsey Graham:
Abu ghraib was about policy…a mixture of individual deviancy, poor policy…”a mess”.
“the idea that we have provided immunity to people who have violated the statute, the felony provisions is absurd.”
I want the CIA program to be classified but to run through the Ge. Convs.
Lindsey doesn’t believe that Gen. Convs. should apply to “unlawful enemy combatants” but since the SCOTUS has ruled they should, they’ve written the bill to reflect that.
Leahy up– c’mon Sir!!!
help me angie!
immanentize @ 124
I’m on the phone
The Libby hearing was supposedly rescheduled for 1:30. Anyone know if it’s really in progress?
Leahy: Unamerican habeas stripping…
It is unconstitutional. If we pass this it is codified american law.
In this “war on terror” that they are so committed to, we have only tried 10 people.
Talking about the innocents imprisoned.
I don’t want to be defeatist, but what is it precisely that we are trying to “win”? At what point does the thing we’re trying to save become so damaged that it is not worth saving? We’re not there yet, but we took a big step in that direction today.
With only abougt 6% of voters really up for grabs, VOTER TURNOUT WINS ELECTIONS. The Republicans understand that, and play to their base very publicly. The Democrats play OFF their base publicly saying, in effect, “we’re not as crazy as those nutjobs! vote for us!”
In the process they depress Democratic voter turnout more than they pick up votes from the nearly non-existent middle. We can help by keeping up our morale, but DAMMIT! the incumbent Dems have to give us some freakin’ help. This “we’re not quite as bad as the Republicans” isn’t getting them any votes from the middle or the right, and it is costing them votes on the left.
If things don’t fundamentally change, either by incumbent Dems waking up or us throwing the bastards out (q.v. Lieberman), the situation is going to get worse, much worse. Eventually there will be a disastrous third party movement, which will fracture the progressive vote and hand supermajorities to the Rethugs.
Now that having been said, defeatism serves no useful purpose. Even when you are faced with certain defeat, it is better to go down fighting.
It is just incredibly frustrating that we need to fight Democrats(!!) just to get them to drag their heels a bit as we slide into tyranny.
Well, my prior optimistic view of the debate deadline appears to be wrong. According to this article, the Dems agreed to limit debate to 12 hours total, and to consideer several amendments, and then proceed to a vote.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmp…..rrorism_17
Leahy’s doing his bit.
I just called Collins and Snowe. Collin’s aide was polite, Snowe’s didn’t care about my opinion because I’m from Arizona. This hasn’t completely played out yet…too bad you can’t watch the House and Senate split-screen….
I just got off the phone with Senator Feinstein’s office. I don’t think the poor guy who answered the phone new what hit him. I asked specifically what the Senator’s position was on S3901 and her position on allowing torture, and the usurpation of Habeas Corpus.
My answer? “The Senator has not made a statement on that issue as of yet.” Oh and by the way the Senator is against torture “per se.” I’m going to scream.
So maybe there’s time to get after these guys. Let them know you damn well expect them to vote to sustain the provisions of the Constitution.
Enough!
Illinois delegation report:
I called Durbin’s office to thank him for his floor speech and state my strong opposition to the torture compromise. The staffer was efficient and rather cheerful, which leads me to believe they’ve gotten a lot of approving calls. I also implored them to filibuster.
Obama’s DC office put me on hold 2x, but when I finally got a staffer he was helpful. He stated that Obama would oppose anything that did not respect the Geneva Convetions, but I could not pin him down on a yea or nay on the bill before the Senate. I politely but forcefully told him that Obama NEEDED to get out front on the issue, and speak.
Obama’s office was getting hammered. Illinois residents especially, lean on him!
Andy
Alton IL
Leahy says the bill is getting worse with each revision.
he’s making me cry
shargash: please hang in there. Your feelings speak for me. Let’s keep fighting. I say all this warmly and fondly.
Amendments? No. Filibuster. Maybe don’t threaten right now, but do it before the session’s out. If the electorate is too dumb to realize that there’s no wiggle room on this issue, then we deserve what we get. That’s democracy–teh best government money can buy.
And another thing—what about the amnesty provisions? Yes, we’ve been torturing people, but s’alright? You gotta be kidding.
Praedor Atrebates@113
The enemy has played your moral outrage.
If you vote against Democrats who did not filibuster the bill, you will vote for a Republican. If you just don’t show up on Election Day, you will help Republicans stay in power. If you don’t support Democrats with your money and time, you will help the Republicans. So America will get more of the same.
This is a political game the Republicans are playing. Don’t you think they know it will outrage liberals, discourage them, and maybe, if lucky, liberals will lieberman their own candidates. Save it for after the election.
Read up on PSYOPs. Read Sun Tzu. You will find that discouraging the enemy is part of the strategy of winning wars.
On evidence obtained by torture from the Frist bill:
LEAHY speaks for me.
Just called Snow and Collins. Last time was Alito (for naught).
Pachacutec @ 103
Thanks! People, maybe you ought to calm down. It sounds like Levin has a plan.
Leahy is God-like.
Bless him.
Yup. This is the moment.
Any member of congress that does not do everything in their power to stop torture and detention without trial will not get my vote. Ever again.
And if the leaders of the democrats cannot pull their caucus in line to protect the most basic tenets of the constitution, the donkey will never get my vote again. Never.
You KNOW this is all about covering for crimes already committed. I wonder what the rebel trio were threatened with.
Tough day, but it’s important to stay focused and KEEP FIGHTING.
We knew it was going to get ugly.
TAKE ACTION.
Light up Leahy’s switchboard, please.
Sorry this is O/T, but…
Did you see this about Olberman receiving a white powder in his mail today, and how the NYPost makes fun of it (and him)????
AAbshier @ 139
That was my experience too. Durbin’s staff are always polite and on top of things.
We just need to accept Obama is a follower and be always ready to keep poking him with a pitchfork from behind. Then replace him in the next primary with a Democrat who has a spine.
nj progressive @
88
Thank you. I needed to hear that.
scarecrow @ 135
so hope that report is wrong… i want to see SOME dems vote against cloture… i want SOME dems i can support…
This administration has made a specialty of putting the American people in a position where the only choices are “bad” and “worse”.
It is our sober duty to fight for “bad” when we find ourselves in such a position.
Because come November, we really, really cannot afford “worse”.
Mason, Praedor, what the f*ck are either of you actually doing in your own neighborhoods to get the right kind of people elected to replace the people you can’t tolerate because of your values and ethics?
If you have the right kind of people already in office in your city/county/state, what the f*ck are you doing to get the right kind of people elected to replace the people you can’t tolerate?
I’m with Steve about the stench of troll sh*t – if all you’re doing is whining and puling, you’ve got the government you f*cking deserve.
Now do something constructive or p*ss off.
Backstabbers, the both of you unless proven otherwise.
Sonoma Rus @ 138
Doesn’t work. We tried that with Alito. We lit up the phonelines. The empty suits on the other end of the phone made a few sounds like they were drifting our way and then…did the Democratic Fall Down. Again. As usual.
It will be the same on this. They LIKE torture. They LIKE dictatorial powers for the president. It makes their oh so tough job easier. All they need to do is OK whatever the prez puts in front of them, then it’s off to the golf course or off to a fancy dinner with $$$ all over the place.
The phonecalls will not work. The fix is in and the Democrats cannot find it in themselves, even when it comes to torture and suspending habeas, to do the right thing. If they can’t pull something right on torture, then they can’t do anything right…and don’t deserve a shot at even trying to fuck it up worse than it is already fucked up.
I’m through with them. They are not worth the cost of the phonecall in time or money. They are not worth the effort of putting a finger to an illegitimate electronic vote-stealing device screen.
The Dems are beyond redemption. They have been cowards and criminals for so long that it is the only thing they now know how to be. So be it.
Here is Leahy’s email address if anyone wants to send thanks:
senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov
SharonW @ 147
If what Stoller thinks will happen with Levin happens, I will buy everyone who commented here today a drink.
Rayne @ 158
Ditto that.
bellumregio @ 143
I don’t recall that those who signed the Declaration of Independence likely would agree with your view. I am disgusted by what’s happening today and I never, under any circumstances, will support anyone who votes for this piece of garbage. I have ancestors who fought the British during the war for independence and I hear and feel their souls screaming against this perversion. Anyone who votes for this shit is a traitor and deserves to be shot. End of story.
Shargash sez:
It is just incredibly frustrating that we need to fight Democrats(!!) just to get them to drag their heels a bit as we slide into tyranny.
Amen.
I offer the views of Chris Bowers for community discussion and review.
Let’s not fight each other, people. Let’s fight this bill and bolster the people who fight with us. And let’s create the conditions that will increase the power of those who fight with us, in November.
immanentize @ 161
And I will drink it. *VBG* Seriously though, I can’t tell if it’s the interjection of troll-like concern here today or if maybe our team runs better on panic, but geez, shouldn’t people get something definitive before they’re ready to mentally jump off a bridge?
Professor Foland @ 157
sadly, it’s not just the administration that puts us into the position of picking between bad and worse…
i agree that it is our sober and moral duty to keep fighting… but there are many ways to do so, and i won’t condemn people who choose different tactics that the ones i choose (so long as immoral means are not involved).
i think we’re all on the same side here – i don’t want to see us fight eachother over what tactics are correct…. i want to see us encourage and challenge eachother to keep fighting for our beliefs in whatever way our conscience permits.
The good news is that the Repugs are so anxious to get this thing passed quickly that it would seem to indicate an implicit concession that they are expecting to get their sorry little white asses kicked in the coming midterm elections, and lose control of the Congress. The key provision in this lousy legislation IMHO, is the clause that retroactively immunizes the guilty from prosecution for previous war crimes. That is the one that the Right wants and needs badly.
SharonW — wanna’ bet the one whining the loudest didn’t do jack for Lamont?
‘Scuse me while I go and phone another Senator and tell her she’s going to have holy hell on her hands if she comes home this weekend without having camped out 7/24 in the Senate until Levin’s game is played out.
BTW: the text of my letter to Levin asked that he do everything possible to obstruct S.3091 because of its unconstitutionality, including filibuster, poison pill or invoking 16.4 if the key bill was an amendment to an appropriations bill.
I think we are now at a point where beating on the minority-opposition party is not the right strategy. I believe it is time to rain down a sh*t-storm on the majority party so that they KNOW our wrath. Remember that the base to which they play is really only 25-30% of the population; if we could muster 35% or more to make calls, they would be dumbstruck into submission.
FOX NEWS REPORTS THAT 5 PUPILS ARE HELD HOSTAGE BY AN ADULT GUNMAN IN COLORADO SCHOOL.Jefferson County-Columbine. Bomb squad en route. Remote bomb vehicle moving in.
bellumregio @ 143
If the price of getting ineffectual, cowardly, and craven democrats into control of government is to give a pass to torture, then I am out. There is no compromise on this. Out. The very soul of the nation is at stake. This isn’t just some policy wonkfest. This is torture, habeas corpus, gulags…things I stood against in uniform during the goddamned Cold War. I will NOT accept a country, a government, a party, or any members of a party that do not stand firmly and absolutely against torture, arbitrary detention, disappearing people, evidence collected in secret or via torture, and absolutely no way to seek redress or succor.
This is BIG SHIT. This isn’t “just” an Alito on the SCROTUS. This isn’t some policy difference on the best way to handle emissions.
This is the Democraps seeking to OK torture and gulags in an immoral and unacceptable attempt to me-too! the Rethuglicans. It didn’t work when they fell down and voted for the Iraq invasion and it wont work now. They do not get “War on Terror Credits” by voting for torture and arbitrary detention at the behest of the president.
You do not win the debate on torture and gulags by OKing torture and gulags…and giving immunity to those guilty of past “excessive” torture. All they are doing is saying they are OK with a little torture, just a smidge.
No. No way. Sorry, on this item there is no way to have it both ways. It is all or nothing. No holds barred – fight torture with every tactic, including filibuster, or lose legitimacy. You cannot be a legitimate leader of government with torture under your belt.
I wont give them the reigns unless they earn them and stand up straight. No compromise on torture.
immanentize @
28
Fuck yeah I would! Then I would administer a dope slap and tell you to get back in there.
Sorry about the lateness of my reply. Had to pick up the sweetums from school.
Hey, maybe someone can help me on finding something that is driving me crazy. I can’t remember who…wrote a college paper saying that social security should be abolished, but now (years later) is running for office and claims he’s changed his mind. I believe he’s had a drop in the polls since this paper was discovered. Who and for what office?
Thanks!
Heir of Patriots @69 – this is not a bill that an amendment will fix. It needs to die. Get a stake through the heart. Burned to ash.
A few last minute speeches – when they have been asleep at the wheel since the Hamdan deicsion, much less the last two weeks, is just theater.
Mary @ 174
Truth.
I’m voting “concern trolls,” and think they should be left alone.
Praetor:
I share your frustration and anger. But please consider: not all Democrats are the same. We need to enhance the power of the good ones while punishing and picking off bad actors like Lieberman. Please consider the Chris Bowers link I linked upthread.
ccoaler @ 170
I hate to be crass, but these things happen (with more frequency than need be thanks to gun-totting pro-rifle lobbiests). Fox wants your attention away from the great crime seemingly underway in Congress. Remember Aruba? Remember the trumped up charges against a recent girl’s kidnappers.
Lyrebird @ 118
When I called Schumie’s office and got that, I badgered the poor aide six ways from Sunday, “Well, does he support habeas corpus?”, etc. The aide kept coming back with “hasn’t announced a position yet.” Finally I asked, “well, does the Senator support the Constitution?” The exasperated aide finally gave me a hot news flash, “Well, OF COURSE the Senator supports the Constitution!” My parting shot, “Then perhaps he could show some balls and defend it.”
Evil Parallel Universe @ 176
Have no idea what you mean but leaving concern trolls alone sure works for me. ;~)
Mason@163
Why turn your guns on the enemies of the Republicans?
If you think the Republicans are fascists, why would you help them consolidate their power by removing your support for the Democrats? Do you have another party in mind you will vote for? One that can defeat the fascists? Or will you sit home and wait for the fascist destruction to come to full flower?
Don’t you think they are aware of the effectiveness of grassroots Democratic organization in the last election? They want to discourage. They want a loss of faith and of hope. That is why they are doing this now. To cause a rebellion in the ranks.
Temper your outrage and screw up your courage and see the stratagems of the enemy are always, always to divide.
CNN and MSNBC were reporting on Terrell Owens’ presser, so it’s all the corp media blithely ignoring the biggest story of the millennium thus far. Waaaah, they can’t he’p it…thinking and real reporting gives ‘em a header.
Rayne @ 158
I’ve spent thirty years working to help the poor and the marginalized in this society. I’ve helped organize innocence projects all over this country who have freed more than a hundred people innocent people who were wrongfully convicted by our broken criminal justice system. I’m sick and tired of always voting for the least offensive candidate. I’m sick and tired of the endless parade of gutless spineless cowardly Democrats who aren’t worth the powder it would take to blow them up. So, fuck off!
Rayne – I love you, but they are not being an opposition party.
Don’t worry about Republicans not feeling the wrath too, but don’t expect me to chew ass on a Republican politician for depraved indifference, but give a bye to Dems for the same.
McConnell’s office is already starting to regret the fact that I haven’t just moved back to KY, I was born there, went to UK law, and absolutely will work the snot out of making their gal pal in the Louisville race bite the dust.
But that is aside and apart from the fact that Pelosi and Reid have been incompetent and feckless on this. Voting for the incompetent and feckless gets you GWB, with a little plastic surgery.
Rove isn’t the pied piper calling the tune for the rats, Pelosi and Reid are lemmings and I’m not following them off the side of the cliff.
Pachacutec @ 165
Thanks Pach. That is an excellent statement by Chris Bowers — much needed perspective. Another way to look at this: supposed we started a new “progressive party.” We only had about 30 members in the Senate (the ones Chris notes vote progressive virtually every time). We wouldn’t be arguing that we should abandone the Progressive party merely because they didn’t yet have 50 votes. We’d work to increase the 30 to 50.
Also, I thought we had a rule on this blog about not advocating physical harm to anyone. Yes? No?
Rayne @ 158
Do you have any ethics and values? What, pray tell, are they that allows you to vote for those in favor of torture? What values and ethics do you have that allows for short-term use of torture and gulags, at best, to gain politically?
Some things are far, far beyond the pall. Torture and gulags are it.
I’m a veteran. I served at the height of the Cold War against a regime that practiced all the things the GOP and Dems are going to pass into law by Friday.
I’d rather take up arms against my own government then have a government that uses torture, gulags, and other totalitarian powers. Anyone that orders such things into existence are the enemy. Anyone that enables such things (like, say, congress creatures) are the enemy. They are to be fought to the utmost, NOT voted for. Ever.
They are making a mockery of voting, a mockery of the Constitution, a mockery of the country.
It is no more unanimous consent and filibuster, if that is what it takes, or lose legitimacy. Some of us took our oath to the Constitution dead seriously. Anyone that took the oath and fails to live up to it, in deed and spirit, is the worst kind of enemy imaginable. You do not vote to keep such people in power. You eviscerate them. You hang them for treason. You place them before a firing squad.
What are your ethics and values that minor things like torture and gulags are just footballs in a political game?
I’m voting all kinds of concern troll. SIerra girl, do your own googling.
If you were wondering about how an unlawful combatant is defined: from the Frist Bill:
The military commissions are declared to satisfy Geneva Conventions obligations although detainees may not appeal to them to protect their rights:
Pachacutec @ 177
Praetor – and whatever you decide to do, please don’t give up the fight! if you need to take a break from electoral politics, there are other ways you can keep fighting for your beliefs… for example, help the CCR – who’ve been doing the work of the angels on this issue for YEARS… there’s also local organizing w/o the benefit of institutional support… many other things….
… just please don’t quit. you are passionate and you care…
weI need you in this fight….PLEAZZE STOP this beating up on each other. We are all here because we care deeply about all these issues, and have core ethics and values. This is a place where many of us have thought we could be safe in expressing our concern. Let’s not get on others for not doing enough, what ever that is. We try, and we offer new roads toward change to each other, and….
All those carefully marked and redacted documents.
I needed that. I held up to all my calls today, including telling Pelosi’s office that pretty speeches are nice, but I expect more than show and telling Bayh’s office in a tight race like the one in SO IN he needs to show that there is some reason to actually show up and vote for a Democrat, but I tacked one last one on to Leahy’s office to give a thumbs up and cool down so I could work. As soon as I got to saying how proud I was of Sen Leahy, I started to cry.
Stop attacking each other.
Last warning.
new thread…
A couple of random comments:
1. If various parts of the bill are eventually struck down by SCOTUS, the retroactive pardons will still stand. Trying down the road to reinstate the penalties (and I have no idea whether that’s Constitutionally ex post facto) will cause the mother of all political battles, making Bork look like a picnic. Just not going to happen. They will permanently walk for their war crimes if the bill passes.
2. Praedor is definitely not a troll, and very smart. As far as I know he’s been around these parts longer (if more seldom of late) than most of those asking the question.
3. Immanetize–I’ll safely offer to split the bill. As has been pointed out, there are lots of ways to slow this down and run out the clock, and none of them are being used. It is very easy to lock up the Senate, and Bill Frist on the news saying “Democrats are making us record the votes on all these things” is not a very threatening prospect compared to the feared damage from filibustering the bill. If they won’t do the first, they certainly won’t do the second.
4. Just as much as anyone else here, I hate the idea that I finally have to go read “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” to see if there’s insight there on what’s happening today. The slope is steep and slippery, and this bill is a wrenching slip down it, but it’s still a long way down. I don’t think our country can afford for us to stop trying to climb back up.
5. New thread.
Forcing Dems (and their supporters, as here) to agonize (and fight with each other) over how to vote on the detainee bill has been in Karl Rove’s playbook as strategy #1 for weeks. Are we going to succumb to this? We should not give in to that.
Those of you really angry at others here, take a deep breath. It’s dumb for us to be hurting each other, when everyone here has been pulling the oars.
You’re country scares the bejebus out of me!!
I am a Canadian living in Canada. I have loved and admired the US for most of my life. We used to share as many of the same values, hopes and dreams as any two nations could. We used to be, for all intents and purposes, the same people. But I have watched the demise of a great nation over the past five years. Your economic supremacy is slipping. You’re education system is wilting under the religious right’s attack on science. You are under a budget deficit that cannot possibly be sustained. And the world’s perception of the US could not possibly be any lower than it is right now. The lies, coverups and corruption – for what? To bring about a theocracy? I hosestly cannot see what else would motivate these people. Is that how Bush wants to fight Muslim religious extremism – with Christian religious extremism. If so, then I ask – if abortion is such a moral sin, what would Jesus say about torture? It all seems so surreal.
And now your congress is willingly tearing apart the constitution. Something I believe your president swore to defend. My heart goes out to you and others who see the injustice and are as scared as I am for America. But not being American, I am now concerned that the infection will spread north. I am scared for Canada.
Maybe one day I will wake up and this will all be just a bad dream…
Rayne @ 169
Now THAT is a capital idea! Why haven’t we done this before, or maybe some of you have, but I just missed it.
Mary @ 174
Durbin is my Senator. He’s not been asleep at the wheel. He’s been in the Judiciary committee fighting the foul GOP rubber stamping of “King” George for years. I agree the bill is repugnant and it would be best if it could be killed. Strategically, trying to amend it could kill it. If not, at least it can help mitigate the damage.
Seriously, people, we need to recognize that we do not have every tool at our disposal to stop the Bush/GOP descent into the mire because Democrats are in the minority! Right now the Democrats are running out the clock and trying to hold back a tide. That may be all they can do.
There’s a time and a place to cut your losses (i.e. give up on the Democrats and not fight), but this isn’t it. We need to prop up the timid and get the backs of those willing to fight. They may not win, but if they can hold any ground until they are better positioned and reinforced (i.e. with a crop of new Democrats post-election) then we must do what we can.
I agree with some others, this defeatism is beginning to smell trollish.
Hugh – the Combatant Status Review tribunals were a joke, far worse than the commission rules that the court had before it and struck down in Hamdan (and it is why I was saying that the CSRTs needed to be attacked immediately on the basis of that ruling instead of the rollback under the Graham Levin legislation).
It’s not just that the enemy combatant definition is bad – it’s that there is no habeas. So even if the definition was super cleaned up, what does it matter? It could pretty much say you have to be 7′2″ and with plaid colored hair to be an enemy combatant and it doesn’t matter to all the people who don’t meet that definition and are held – if they have no right to make the claim to a court that they do not meet the definition.
Whoever is talking now has brought up a critical point. If there is no habeas, those not charged have no recourse to challenge the basis of their detention. What is less recognized is that any who are tried and acquitted can still be held indefinitely because they have no habeas protection. This essentially vitiates any purpose for trials: you can be held indefinitely before and indefinitely after. IANAL but this seems a vicious Catch-22: You may or may not have a judicial process but even if you do it won’t mean anything.
SharonW @ 147
This is dead as a plan as per the unanimous consent agreement. A timeline has been set and that means Levin can’t do any “running out the clock”. Me thinks that he doesn’t/didn’t intend to do this anyway since the simplest way to show that (and DO it) is to deny unanimous consent every time it is sought. A simple way to gum up the works and run out the clock that doesn’t require a filibuster. It is a foolproof method of time consumption and there are numerous points at which to do it. But it isn’t happening.
12hours total. Nothing more. No more unanimous consent topped with a helping of filibuster and the Torture and Gulag Act would be dead. The clock would run out and that would be that.
Bush and company wouldn’t get their immunity either. But, alas, the Dems are all for unanimous consent and giving a strict time limit on debate so that it can come to a floor vote where all the GOP will vote for it and many Dems will vote for it too. The Republic ends this week, no later than Friday and the November elections cannot change or fix that fact.
Praedor Atrebates @ 171
Have you listened to anything siad on CSpan this afternoon? Did you hear Patrick Leahy screaming about “the Bush-Cheney Administration” and yelling about how the majority did nothing for 5 years and now, weeks before the election, have to rush this through NOW, NOW, NOW!!!!!? You are painting them all with the Lieberman brush, and there are some who do not deserve it. I can empathize with your anger and your disgust that the notion of torture is even under discussion, but this isn’t over and the dems have been dirty-tricked again. Your comments have been heard at least 3 times that I’ve seen today. Maybe you should look at the Green’s website if you’re unable to contribute here. I have always valued your comments, but I’m feeling battered, given the stress of the day.
With respect,
zen
op99 @ 179
Have I told you lately that I love you?
Great comeback, girlfriend!
Damn I missed Leahy twice today. I love hearing him speak, because he makes me feel some hope for this country. And I’m a Vermonter, so I feel incredibly proud to have him represent our state.
I called his office twice today, the second time to beg for a filibuster, called Jeffords twice, called Bernie Sanders, and now just called Snowe and Collins. Snowe was my last call before I have to go out, and I am just filled with such rage I burst into tears while speaking and could hardly get my plea out to the Senator. I am shaking with rage.
Heir – I’m not going to defend being a troll. I am going to say that on this bill, Durbin has been asleep at the wheel. As has all of the leadership of the Democratic party. They did not want to make it an issue and naively thought that maybe they could rely on the Republican choreographed two step to get them out of having to do anything.
This is important and they are showing up with no strategy; they have not taken even a tiny bit of the opportunities dropped in their lap with the Arar report, el-Masri prosecutor’s statements, and the long list of things they could have dug in on and capitalized to bolster their position.
They’ve been worthless.
Wise up, people. This proposed law could be used to disappear you into a gulag where you would be subjected to torture by a sadistic troglodite and denied access to a telephone, or a lawyer. You would be locked up, possibly for the rest of your life. This is right out of the nazi playbook. Read up on the history of Auschwitz and you’ll see that they locked up people who disagreed with them long before they locked up the jews.
According to Digby, the Republicans have broadened the scope of whom they may detain and torture without recourse from “anyone engaged in hostilities against the United States” to “anyone who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States.”
Anyone who dissents easily could be accused of “purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States.” Don’t forget that anyone accused of violating this law never will have the right to a trial. Does anyone trust Bush to see the difference between legitimate dissent and supporting hostilities?
Of course he won’t. He already has accused the NYT of aiding the terrists by publishing the story on the NSA.
It doesn’t take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.
Anyone who supports or votes for this proposed law is an enemy of freedom. They don’t deserve to hold public office, if they support this bill because they have no ethics, no guts, and they do not believe in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights. They flat out don’t care and not one of them will be there when the Bushites come knocking on your door. Not one of them will take even 5 minutes of their time to take a call from someone who loves you and wants to know where you are.
Re my #188,
The definition of an unlawful enemy combatant can be applied to American citizens.
Praedor Atrebates @ 32
No – that’s not the position of the Dems. At least that’s not what I heard Levin say, or Leahy.
I’m sorry guys. I know I’m one of the more moderate folks contributing to this site, but there are some Dems out there fighting to stop this. We still don’t know what the finally strategy will be. Why are we painting everyone with the same broad strokes?
And I certainly don’t think that those Dems running for Congress who have been no part of this debacle should pay by losing their grassroots support. Sorry, but to me that is absolutely insane.
Yes, Rove orchestrated this to fire up the base. But he also, I suspect, is trying to deflate the powerful grassroots opposition. I think they were totally taken off guard by what we did in Connecticut. So if Rove can stop that train – he’s got a two-fer.
And tin-foil time. I have a real concern with newcomers popping up in the guise a “progressive” and then dissing the Dems and saying they’re not going to give money to any Dem candidate and they’re not going to work for them. Hmmmmm.
Mason @ 122
WHEW..In case that didn’t get your attention…
…anyone wanna know what a spine looks like?
http://blueherald.com/2006/09/650/
zennurse at 203 –
Thank you for your comments. There are Dem Senators out there fighting this the best way they know how. Let’s see what happens. I’m just as upset as everyone else – I know what’s at stake. I have two daughters in their 20s. I understand the need to contact the Dems and let them know in no uncertain terms how we feel about this – and the importance of putting every bit of pressure we can on them. But this is the venal Republicans’ baby – they are eagerly joining Rove – especially McCain – in selling out the country because it’s the 2006 election strategy.
Again, I wish we would stop painting everyone with the same broad brush.
“And tin-foil time. I have a real concern with newcomers popping up in the guise a “progressive” and then dissing the Dems and saying they’re not going to give money to any Dem candidate and they’re not going to work for them. Hmmmmm.”
dab, don’t be surprised at “newcomers”. Some aren’t, have been around a long while just not lately; and we’ve just finished two de-lurking latenights, so there are bound to be new voices. That’s not to say you should take your hat off, though ;)
Okay, I’ve taken a deep breath, or two and calmed down. No one on this blog is my enemy and I am not your enemy. This matters to me and I know that it matters to all of you. So, please accept my apology, if I offended any of you.
Seriously, though, I do believe that this bill, if passed, will be used to disappear most of us and I’m really pissed off about that, not to mention scared.
I am not a troll. I’ve been posting here for over a year. I believe radical characterizes me more accurately than progressive.
Uhm, that would be on the left; not the right.
This is my first post on FDL, and I’ll try to keep it short.
I’m not affiliated with any political party, and at various times I’ve wondered if there was any difference b/w Dems and Repubs.
I don’t wonder anymore.
Today, I saw the majority of ONE political party, the Democrats, stand up for the values upon which our country was founded, and I’m proud of them. The Republicans chose to tread upon the Constitution for cheap political gain. I am upset with both the Dems who _chose_ the wrong side, and the Repubs who _constitute_ the wrong side. But I am extremely proud of the Democratic Party as a whole, for representing what’s right.
Mason @ 212
not offended…. inspired by your passion and commitment… stay true, and please stay connected here.
A question from a foreigner:
If this legislation passes the Congress (the particular piece everyone is up in arms about), can someone take it to the Supreme Court to try and get it declared unconstitutional?
In case anyone thinks I’m blowing smoke about my interpretation of this smashing piece of legislation, please check Digby’s latest post entitled It Could Happen to You. Give it a read at:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
I respect your views Mason and I also respect Praedor Atrebates…
I am disheartened and frightened for all of us here in America and for people across the globe.
Scott Tribe @ 217
I’m not a lawyer, but I would think that the only folks who would have “standing” to pursue this in court would be those very same detainees who are being excluded from doing just that via this bill.
Kind of a Catch-22.
My personal guess still is that yes, this will get into Federal Court, and it has a good chance to get all the way up to the Supreme Court.
I believe that the supporters of this bill know full well that they cannot prevent the Federal Courts from taking this matter up.
So the rationale behind this Repug push has got a lot of political content to it in order to inspire their increasingly fearful base.
Desperation is a helluva motivator! *g*
new thread up – Blue America interview
AND
Right Now, Spector has introduced an amendment to the stinkerbill of the day, trying to restore right of Habeas Corpus, which was stripped in current version of the bill. Co-sponsors of the amendment Leahy, Durbin(?), Dorgan(?) – sorry so vague – caught me unawares. NOW on CSpan 2.
darkblack @
5
Pretty good, but given recent reports, I think the top line should read, “Tell Us What We Want to Hear.”
Also, please check-out Glenn Greenwald’s latest, Democrats and the Torture Bill, which is cross-posted at Salon. His update regarding the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) addresses the issue that I raised regarding people like us being disappeared into the Gulags. Check him out at:
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
Read it and go nuts.
Scott Tribe @
217
If any similar but unidentical legislation passes both House and Senate, the bills must be reconciled. Once they agree, or if the 2 bills as passed are identical, they are sent to the President and signed into law. Once signed, a law can be challenged in court, but not directly in the Supreme Court – it starts out in lower courts.
Has no one among Democrats spoken the obvious? I don’t know, don’t have TV. The obvious being that this bill has no merit at all? That it’s completely unnecessary? That its purposes have nothing to do with national security, and everything to do with giving the Administration cover to continue doing the immoral and illegal?
This business of amending the indefensible strikes me as sleight-of-hand. Outright opposition is what’s truly necessary. Why not fight the passage of the goddamned thing, tooth and nail, in unified fashion?
Heartsick is what I am.
A U.S. citizen who has been disappeared into a gulag for “purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States,” because he/she criticized Bush’s policies in the GWOT would have no right to contest his/her detention (habeas corpus), no right to an attorney, no right to a trial, no right to communicate with anyone in the outside world to let them know where they are and what kind of shape they’re in, no right not to be tortured, no right to medical treatment, no right to contact or be seen by a representative of the Red Cross or Amnesty International, and his/her survivors would have no right to sue the government for wrongful death if some troglodite got a little carried away with the torture game.
If at some point our government decided that it was costing them too much money to house and feed us, they could ponder a “final solution.” The nazis decided that it would cost them less money to gas and burn the jews than shoot and bury them. In their minds, it was just a responsible financial decision.
I fear that the Republicans redefined “enemy combatant” specifically because they want to torture and kill dissenters. Given the latest NIE Report warning about leftist dissenters on the internet, what other reason could they have had to change the language?
A little earlier I wrote about moving to another country because I’m so disgusted that anyone, whether Republican or Democrat, would vote for this awful bill. Now, I’m thinking that I better move out of this country to avoid being disappeared, seriously.
Mary @
174
I think Mary’s point is that this is a bill to gut the War Crimes Act of 1996, which makes war crimes federal crimes, and to retroactively indemnify members of the Bush administration for the war/federal crimes they’ve committed already. The only way to save the War Crimes Act and to keep Bush a federal criminal is to block this bill, however that might be done.
Both here and at dKos, there’s a lot of Sunday school shaming of people going on. Take it from me, that’s counterproductive. Kos has practically twisted himself into a pretzel trying to rationalize what amounts to accepting torture. Sorry guys, that just won’t fly.
The issue is very simple: habeas corpus and protection from cruel and unusual punishment is a basic American right. Tinker with this in any way, and the game is over, period.
Accordingly, I agree with everyone who says torture-loving Democrats are dead to them. Any Congressman or Senator who does NOT try to stop this bill is dead to me forever. And I’ll stay home in 2008 if the Democratic nominee happens to have voted for this travesty. I swear I will.
This is it. I’m off the reservation for good. They have to EARN MY RESPECT from here on out, and as of now, they don’t have it.
Hang in there. The House vote was a disaster.
The Senate hung together. The fix was apparently in from the beginning between
the 3 creeps and the White House. They got the Armed Services committee to pass a more moderate bill last Friday(sponsored by Levin).
The three creeps took it off in the middle of the night and very cleverly changed language on Habeas Corpus,rights of detainees and most
important ( to them ) set aside punishment for for those who broke the laws on torture etc prior to 2005. Thats when all the torture , illegallities took place. As usual I am sure
Karl planned this all out in advance. I was proud of the Dems. They all hung together to try and restore the original Levin Bill. We just have to get more diabolical than they are.
Nana
The bottom line is if they really felt it was important to stop this bill from passing they could and as of date they haven’t. I don’t believe a single Dem should be congratulated for trying unless they have taken every available action at their disposal which means every Dem who voted against this should be prepared to stand up and Filibuster!
Satanical @ 230
Yup. Up to and including setting themselves on fire in the chambers.
Balrog at 70 But it’s (bill) not over yet. Remember Belushi’s rallying speech at the Delta House. And if this one doesn’t go our way, we’ll redouble on the next.
WE WILL WIN. If not now, then in the future.
DON’T GIVE UP. FIGHT TWICE AS HARD.
JHF @
228
I don’t really care for the hoots and calls of “trolls!” and charges of “backstabbing” myself, but I think the concerns and opinions of those of us who have not only had it but have HAD IT are valid.
As JHF and others have stated, these are central, CORE values– these are ideas, legislative concepts, and the letter and spirit of this country that our Constitutional Forefathers constructed. I can fully understand why some of you will not acknowledge the Democratic Party, why you will not contribute another dime, and why you are full of outrage– because I feel the same.
This doesn’t mean that we quit fighting– I DO agree we can’t give up. But– this is a moral Rubicon, and we are, as a nation, about to cross it, perhaps irreversibly.
For those of you who have children, if your children break a cardinal family rule, or behave so atrociously, do you simply shrug your shoulders and say, “No problem?” You’ll still give them their allowance. You’ll take the family to Disneyland (and yes, I know, Disney is the Evil Empire right now– this is merely for the sake of *illustration*).
No, of course not– you punish them. This is how some of us feel– we’re not letting the Democrats have their allowance. We’re not taking them to Disneyland. Why should we allow them to just sit back and do nothing, and then “reward” them anyway?
That said, I like the idea one commenter (forgive me for not remembering your handle!) had, of taking the fight to the rank and file on the other side. This is something that should have been done way before, not now at the 11th hour, but I think we need to do it from now on (and I pledge to do my part): go to those Red State voters, those in the 33%, and try to reach them– explain that this goes beyond social and economic issues, that the Constitution itself is not and should not be a partisan issue. What does it mean to be an American? How do we define our national values in terms of Constitutional rights and guarantees, and the spirit thereof? Try to reach them BEYOND wedge issues, BEYOND pocketbook issues– try to connect with them as fellow Americans.
Because that is what we have left– our common identity, our common roots, our common heritage. The United States is our collective family– we can’t turn our backs on it. THAT is the message we must spread.