"There is a problem of trying to manipulate the courts to get a particular result. There is a particular problem if you are trying to do so retroactively." — Bruce Fein
"I know due process when I see it. I know fair proceedings when I see them. And this ain’t it." — Thomas Sullivan
"Five percent of the inmates in Guantanimo were picked up by US troops. The rest of them were picked up by tribal leaders in Afghanistan and Pakistan…" — Rear Admiral John Hudson
We are better than this as Americans. The rule of law is more important than covering George Bush’s butt in the short term. And I will be damned if I am just going to roll over. There will be accountability for this mess — and it starts with the election in November.
Whatever it takes. However long it takes. The Democrats are going to regain control of Congress. However much work is required, I will do it. Whatever messaging needs to be done, I will write it. Whatever it takes. From this day forward, getting out the Democratic vote is the single most important thing on my agenda between now and November — but I’m going to need everyone’s help. I have damn well had enough.
(The above is a photo of the first page of the Magna Carta.)
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
Hear, Hear! We are better than this indeed – and what better time than Monday morning to get to work!
Good morning Christy. Another post worthy of extensive spotlighting. Thanks.
Thanks for doing the hard work of the legal nuts and bolts Christy. It is helpful beyond belief.
fitz!
Magna Carta!
Constitution and Geneva Conventions!
Swift– we can’t be beat as long as we are a nation of laws.
(Where is everybody else? Kennedy, Feingold…)
egregious @ 4
Rule of law, not of men!
Christy, perfect and beautiful.
beard5, we should never underestimate the power of such amazing images, and the care and love with which they were created.
Thank God for the the guy in uniform and fighting for Habeas Corpur and Rule of Law.
The people standing in back in orange speak for us. I wish the whole room would disrupt into “save the constitution.”
Leahy– if someone was tortured can it be admitted?
Swift– It allows evidence obtained by coercion. I can’t tell you what torture means anymore.
essentially the govt is saying “We’re not going to tell you how we got the evidence.”
Leahy and Hutson bring up the fact that money was paid for the incarcerated. Sullivan says that some of these men at Gitmo are no more dangerous than his grandkids.
angie @ 5
can’t tell you how pissed off this makes me. can they at least SHOW UP!!!
selise @ 9
They just better have something BIG planned.
I read in the other thread that Kennedy submitted a written statement; he can’t be there.
I want to see the vote count on this outrage and I want us to take these people down.
angie at 5 — this hearing was truly scheduled on the fly. Feingold, for example, has a previously scheduled speech today in Philadelphia at 12:00/12:30 pm ET. I’m sure other Senators had commitments as well that were not easy to cancel. They don’t normally schedule Monday hearings without adequate notice, and this one was put on the schedule late on Friday. (At least that’s when I noticed it popping onto the scheduling information.)
selise @ 9
These are the last 2 people I worry about in this regard. They’ll be heard one way or another.
from the gallery to cornyn – “SHAME ON YOU!” “UNAMERICAN”
heckler– ’shame on you’ and ‘criminal activity’ and ‘unamerican’ while Cornyn is yapping.
yay!
Christy, They schedule a hearing of this magnitude “on the fly”? How outrageous is that?
Sullivan is going off!
angie @ 16
Can I hear a “Have you no decency, sir?” I always liked that one.
Balrog @ 14
i expect them to show up. i expect them to a make verbal statement. i expect them to question the witnesses.
this is too important to not show up.
Sullivan says if this is passed and after I am dead and you are all dead, an apology will be given just as it was after the internment of the Japanese Americans.
Pleading for the innocents .
Specter sounding like Lieberman lecturing protestors. Kiss my ass.
specter is going off on the against the hecklers in the gallery.
disrespectful, rude.
Specter tells the hecklers that they are rude and disrespectful.
Nice lecture.
“I am ignoring you.”
Big bang of the gavel.
done.
Toll Free number to Capital Switchboard
http://www.americanpatrol.com/…..rReps.html
(866) 808-0065
I tried it and it works….. Please hammer Senator Kyl…. he has pushed multiple bills that would remove our right to habeas corpus. I do not get it and do not understand it but he has.
???? My feed went quiet?
Mike at 26 — Hearing is over for today.
Specter saying, “I’m ignoring you.”
NO KIDDING.
From the live-blogging here, it sounds like the good guys did well. Thoughts?
Thank you
WOW, I’m truely scared for AMERICANS!
It bears repeating, a few salient Bush Torture Indemnity Act draft provisions as proffered Friday:
_____
HR 6054
SEC. 6. SATISFACTION OF TREATY OBLIGATIONS.
(b) RIGHTS NOT JUDICIALLY ENFORCEABLE.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—No person in any habeas action or any other action may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto as a source of rights, whether directly or indirectly, for any purpose in any court of the United States or its States or territories.
(2) CONSTRUCTION.—Paragraph (1) may not be construed to affect the obligations of the United States under the Geneva Conventions.
SEC. 8. RETROACTIVE APPLICABILITY.
This Act shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act and shall apply retroactively, including—
(1) to any aspect of the detention, treatment, or trial of any person detained at any time since September 11, 2001; and
(2) (2) to any claim or cause of action pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act.
S 3929
SEC. 103. AUTHORIZATION FOR MILITARY COMMISSIONS.
(a) IN GENERAL.—The President is authorized to establish military commissions for the trial of alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other offenses specifically made triable by military commission as provided in chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code, and chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as enacted by this Act).
(b) CONSTRUCTION.—The authority in subsection (a) may not be construed to alter or limit the authority of the President under the Constitution and laws of the United States to establish military commissions for areas declared to be under martial law or in occupied territories should circumstances so require.
SEC. 107. TREATY OBLIGATIONS NOT ESTABLISHING GROUNDS FOR CERTAIN CLAIMS.
(a) IN GENERAL.—No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions, or any protocols thereto, in any habeas or civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States, is a party, as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories.
(b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by subsection (a) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply to all cases, without exception, pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act which relate to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of detention of an alien detained by the United States since September 11, 2001.
SEC. 108. IMPLEMENTATION OF TREATY OBLIGATIONS.
PROHIBITION ON GRAVE BREACHES.—The provisions of section 2441 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by this section, fully satisfy the obligation under Article 129 of the Third Geneva Convention for the United States to provide effective penal sanctions for grave breaches which are encompassed in common Article 3 in the context of an armed conflict not of an international character. No foreign or international source of law shall supply a basis for a rule of decision in the courts of the United States in interpreting the prohibitions enumerated in subsection (d) of such section 2441.
INTERPRETATION BY THE PRESIDENT.—
(A) As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions and to promulgate higher standards and administrative regulations for violations of treaty obligations which are not grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
Assume you are watching this on CSpan 3 – aghhhhh – not available here on the central California coast cable company. Boxer’s SF office must not open until 9 AM – figures.
angie @ 24
Maybe there are times when rude and disrespectful is appropriate…like, say, at a hearing to discuss suspension of habeas for anybody. What is there to respect in that?
This should be on every channel on TV.
To think something so important to AMERICA, has to be listened to online is sad!
Thank you CHRISTY !!!!
selise @
20
No shit. I just do not find anyone’s absense excusable in this matter. If you cannot show up to stop the utter decay of your country’s moral fiber when it tries to destroy habeas corpus and legislate torture then why exactly do you deserve the title of “statesman.”
If some truly stirring speaker like Barak Obama were to brilliantly orate against this on the floor of the Senate it would be history making and stir a demoralized base. Instead they are running from it — even those we normally count on to defend us in these situations. It is going to be very hard to get behind those who do not go to the mat over this ever again.
Sully and Christy hit back to back homers..
Cornyn and other RePugs strike out looking..
Thanks,
Jack
how to make sure new Democrats elected this year behave differently than the current incumbent dems (Feingold excepted)?
please make sure your support comes with strings attached, because those to the left of the DLC cannot be taken for granted anymore as Dem supporters.
I’m just so incredibly disheartened by this charade. Why they think they can slice and shave off a bit here and there and not see the larger principle is way, way beyond me. IANAL, but if we are at a stage in our democracy where you have to be a lawyer to understand the Constitution, then we have just crossed a dangerous line.
My heart goes out to the good people who testified on behalf of those who believe in our cherished founding principles. It is a fight to the death. This process feels very, very sick.
Christy Thank you for checking the ’sorrow’ thread for me. I await further instructions/news. Thanks.
We are better than this. And someone needs to ask these people what it is they are really afraid of. Are they afraid of the truth? Are they afraid they might have to admit that not everyone detained in the last five years needed to be? Are they afraid of what the detainees will say if given an opportunity? Are they afraid of what they are telling the Red Cross?
When do their actions make us afraid to speak? When do their decisions make us afraid to make eye contact with law enforcement? And when the fear penetrates to that level, what will they do with the power we have ceded to them through our own fear? Is that what they want? Are we supposed to be taking notes and understanding that if these people can cast aside all legal, constitutional and international conventions with the stroke of a pen, they can do the same to us?
And at what point do we have more to fear from our own government than we do from a garden-variety terrorist? When that time comes, if the Congress allows it, if the people do not speak up, we will have lost far more than 3,000 lives and some infrastructure. We will have lost the heart and soul of this great country to those who are willing to satisfy their voracious appetite for power by taking from us the one thing that held us apart from so many other countries: our freedom.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 13
I hope he has something BIG to say during his speech, then. I understand that many of them may have had previous commitments, but there is little that is more important than this.
Maybe it was just hastily arranged and just for show. Leahy did all the heavy lifting along with 4 fine attorneys. Cornyn looked and sounded quite ridiculous as did Berenson and Rivkin. Specter looked like the beleaguered limp noodle that he is.
at the end of the webcast there was this statement:
for more information, contact the senate recording studio at 224-4977
i called the number and asked if they would give a copy of the film to c-span to broadcast… was told that usually the request is made from a senator’s office, but that they would transfer me so i could make the request (don’t think that was effective).
any fld vermonters – would you consider calling leahy’s office to ask them to make the request for a copy of the film to be given to c-span for broadcast? i think leahy’s office might be the best bet (kennedy and feingold might not, if they don’t want to be embarrassed by their absence).
“Whatever it takes. However long it takes. The Democrats are going to regain control of Congress.”
I sound like a tihat donner, yet, I have a nagging feeling that the repugs have a (diebold supported) strategy to keep the majority. They can still the criticts by letting those that have strayed lose and those that are clearly trailing by large margins. With the complicit press and fake poll results, there may not be enough to point a finger at.
Cut to the chase:
_____
(b) RIGHTS NOT JUDICIALLY ENFORCEABLE.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—No person in any habeas action or any other action may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto as a source of rights, whether directly or indirectly, for any purpose in any court of the United States or its States or territories…
INTERPRETATION BY THE PRESIDENT.—
(A) As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions…
SEC. 8. RETROACTIVE APPLICABILITY.
This Act shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act and shall apply retroactively, including—
(1) to any aspect of the detention, treatment, or trial of any person detained at any time since September 11, 2001; and
(2) to any claim or cause of action pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act.
newspaperbrat @ 32
nope… sadly, not on c-span… watched the judiciary committee webcast which was uncharacteristically working well.
i recorded an mp3 of the webcast – and will post a link to it shortly, for anyone who missed the webcast. hope there won’t be any copyright violations since it is a gov feed. if any lawyers out there think i’m wrong on that… please warn me, don’t want to get in trouble with the law over this….
Jane Hamsher @ 34
“It is is going to be very hard to get behind those who do not go to the mat over this ever again.” Going to be IMPOSSIBLE for this furious old Democrat to EVER get behind either Boxer or Feinstein again should they wiggle out of this one. Not as difficult as I once believed – Boxer has been 95% on my “to hell with you” since her arrogant denial of staff and constituent pleadings to stay the hell out of the CT primary , to no avail. Thanks Christy & Jane for leading by doing, every day.
Has everyone noticed WE THE PEOPLE are doing the CONgress’s job. They truly are a worthless bunch of cowards. Christy, me too. I have been working furiously in this pseudo red state of SC. ASking R people to just not go vote if they cannot pull the D lever ( or whatever their district). I’ve wondered if setting up a one man show asking for an exit poll would get me into trouble. I’m thinking just ask people to vote outside a second time. Various locations with willing participants to man booths for the second votes… is an interesting idea. People would most likely do it with the current climate. I am also not like Diebold… opposed to telling the truth and declaring a real winner of by and for the people even if it is not my candidate of choice!!
selise @ 45
OT but a little good news…The “Green” candidate ie rep. shill was thrown off Pa US Senate race ballot because of too many bogus signatures on petition.
And let’s not forget how this got started in November of 2000 when Bush lawlessly assumed power. He got away with that one and it put him on the slippery slope, which he has been gliding down ever since. Every new lawless outrage is bigger than the preceding one and if he gets away with this cancellation of HC, he will try bigger fish to fry.
We are in the same situation the Germans were in in the 1930’s. Lets hope we don’t end up with the same results.
Selise–sorry that got messed up, here is my best guess which is stuck in the middle of your comment:
Not a lawyer but my husband is and works in intellectual property, you would be posting for educational purposes which is fair use and the hearing is in the public domain.
Jane Hamsher @
35
These fools are so frightened of Karl Rove, that they run from golden opportunity when they think Rove might be in the neighborhood. What fools!
One of my friends in Veterans for Peace says that if this passes, he and his buddies are going to stage flag washings.
Wow! The post and the comments were just great.
Not to disagree with anyone, but scheduling this late on a Friday when commitments have already been made by some Senators could offer some excuse for absences.
Do not know, but Sen. Kennedy may have a funeral today. His sister died last week.
Feingold will be there when the going gets tough, I wish he were my senator.
We can count on Spector to do this sort of scheduling though, he is such a dimwit.
Thank you everyone for the live posts on what was happening.
Get printing! Forward this link to all you know…
http://www.netrootsmass.net/ex…..stcard.pdf
did DiFi show up?
OldSchool @ 55
No– Leahy, Specter and Cornyn, that’s it.
PS I just realized that I spelled habeas wrong so many times while trying to help cover the hearing!
Sorry… (blushing and kicking myself.)
I want to hear every single Democratic Senator and Representative state for the record in the simplest terms possible their position on this. Loud and clear. Yes or No. And I want every Democrat running for office to do likewise. They must state their principles now. This election and all future elections must be a moratorium on where they stand on this issue. This IS a litmus test.
Jane S. @ 51
thanks for that!
usually i just post clips, but will post the whole thing this time… and make clips later (and welcome anyone else who wants to do so), especially sullivan who was brilliant..
just give me a few and i’ll have it up….
Amen Christy,
Always know you’ve got a loyal soldier here.
Jane Hamsher @ 35
i think it’s even worse than that… i’m one of the people who doesn’t think it’s impossible to reach out to republicans (john dean and mrs. robinson have been especially helpful here)… and have been trying to do so for years. for me, this has been the issue that has really resonated with conservatives – the constitution and the immorallity of torture. i am going to have NO chance to move conservatives into voting D this november if the democrats won’t defend these basic, fundamental issues.
very sad.
Thank you, Christy. Spot on, and always so great to read that I am not alone in my horror of what is going on. Sometimes it seems as though the world doesn’t notice.
And thanks for the picture. I have never seen the real thing before, and it is somehow very moving that it still exists in fact as well as in substance in our law. I hope we can keep it there.
GOTV continues to be my focus too. Everything I have read points to that as the key. To people who are worried about Diebold and all that name stands for, I hear you, but I’m not sure we can do anything to really fix it before election day. As I see it, there are really only three things we can do to counter the hijack efforts. We can urge that people use paper ballots where they are available, we can try to get Democrats out in record numbers, and we can be there at the polls on election day, watching what goes on, challenging voter suppression, and recording our experiences for use after Congress changes hands, whenever that is.
Apple Canyon 2 @
53
God forbid that a hearing would be scheduled BECAUSE of who would be unavailable…
Balrog @ 62
That thought had occurred to me as well. It’s not even a tinfoil-hat notion, the way this Congress operates.
Sent this to Grassley of Iowa, I am pissed
Dear Senator Grassley:
While habeas corpus was guaranteed by the Magna Charta in 1215, I wonder how future generations will judge this Congress on its efforts to railroad the constitution. Fact Sir; 14,000 human beings incarcerated for up to five years and only a handful have been charged?
Are they guilty until proven innocent?
Sincerely,
Jim Clausen
A concerned Citizen
From the Writers Almanac –
For all of their mewing about the original intent of the Founding Fathers, the Right Wing Republicans are first in line to destroy the Constitution.
I want to thank you all for live blogging the hearings. I wasn’t able to stream it so I really appreciate getting info. Good on y’all. Will await the link to hear the whole thing, then maybe we can spotlight it to newsfolks…K.O? To at least have it be part of the daily MSM discourse.
Frame the debate around Christ. That does several things:
1. it makes the evening news due to all the fake outrage
2. it helps point out that American values and Christian values are under attack by the GOP
3. helping the oppressed, treating our enemy better than they treat us, etc. are core values that Christ would support. It’s the right thing for Christians to do.
Example framing: http://www.geocities.com/ddunn…..index.html
From TPM:
Damn straight, Christy. However long it takes, these traitorous bastards should not be allowed to get away with trashing our Constitution. So the Repukes are worried that we’ll get back Congress in November? They better be worried, ’cause payback’s gonna be a bitch, bee-yatch!
I apologize in advance to Christy and all the passionate posters on this topic, but I’m going to say it anyway.
What needs saying is this sure feels just like another Act in KKKarl’s Kabuki theater.
What isn’t being debated by anyone in this hearing is the real priority for this Administration.
Namely their own “Get Out of Jail Free” card.
In typical KKKarl slight-of-hand fashion, the debate has been effortlessly framed so that all the attention is solely focused on the issues of detainee rights, torture definitions, and the like.
Why even folks like you and I are playing the roles assigned. We all, as are our own representatives in Congress, distracted by this “shiny thing” regarding torture and rights.
Just the way KKKarl intended.
And meanwhile back at the ranch, the primary goal of immunity for crimes already committed by this Administration gets a great big pass.
They really don’t give a rat’s ass about just what is produced regarding detainee rights or even torture.
After all, that kind of stuff will be tied up in the courts for years (meanwhile those bad ol’ detainees will of course, still be locked up, and locked down!).
No, the real goal here, and what they so desparately want, and need, is that pardon for past crimes!
The Congresscritters will huff and puff in the debate over the issues of this detainee right or that torture definition, and in the end vote on whatever the give and take has produced.
But not once will there be a serious outcry over the real bottomline purpose packaged stealthly in the bowels of this bill.
Namely to let the “Criminals Pardon Themselves” for crimes they’ve already committed!
Be assured that Junya and Darth, and the rest of their criminal cronies will be slapping each other on the back over how KKKarl slipped another one past the incurious and sandbagged buffoons in Congress.
Junya’s crew gets to dodge a real bullet, the only real bullet that means anything to them.
I can hear them singin’ it now:
Ain’t gonna go to jail no more,
Ain’t gonna go to jail
When everything is said and done,
We ain’t gonna go to jail no more!
Another slick trick KKKarl!
I just called Senators Boxer and Feinstein. Neither has prepared a statement on this yet.
sorry for the delay on the mp3… i’m having to compress it a bit…. one more minute….
Steve at 49, OT but good news I was not aware of. I hope the projected blue sweep of Ohio means lots of new blood in the Democratic Party. We sure need it.
The whole concept of retroactive immunity completely boggles my mind. If you break the law, you break the law. Is this sort of thing an accepted practice?
Damnit — I’ve called Levin’s DTW office, got offered a callback. Nobody in the local office.
And the f*cking idiot answering the phone in DC asked me to look up the amendment on line — told him I tried that already, couldn’t pull it up, couldn’t he please get me the number of the amendment. He spent 2 seconds looking (or faking it) and then pawned me off to someone’s voicemail.
Gawddamnitall, something’s going on. I’ve never gotten this kind of sh*t from them. I want to know what the hell is up and right NOW, damnitall.
Christy & Jane both, great posts and great focus from FDL. thank you much. I have a huge long post that I put on a couple of horsey chat places and it’s so long I may go ahead and dump it on Kos if I have time to fix the links and quote codes from one format to the other, but I think this is something that has to be pushed and AMericans don’t realize it is NOT about “clarifying” the Geneva Conventions.
Hello – how do you say you have to “clarify” to make sure soldier and CIA agents know what they can and cannot do, and at the same time go on other shows saying you “can not” say what is or is not allowed, because then the enemy will know how to “train” against it (as if anyone stands up to torture in the end – they all say what they think the torturer wants to hear).
Fight the good fight.
EvilDrPuma @
63
At the same time, if only 3 senators were there, what was the goal of having this hearing?
At least the folks that were there seem to have represented well.
Rayne @ 75
thanks, Rayne – keep us posted…
Mary,
let me/us know if you post up — I did some habeas analysis last thread you might enjoy.
Just caught up on. Wow! Thanks everyone for live blog and all other info! You all rock!
May I inquire? Did Specter mention (schedule) another hearing? They are going to sneak a vote on this just like they slipped this hearing in under the wire, imo.
Russ and Kennedy must be livid and should have been there no matter what! damn, *sigh*
Beard 5 – hope you feel better soon
HopeSat – Good to see you back to full tilt boogie.)
meta @
74
I hope so. I still have guilt over that candy bar I nipped 40 years ago.
Mom made me march back in and tell the man what I’d done. Hopefully Babs will make Junya do that too.
Mad Dogs #70
You said it all! Nice job.
My first thought when Frist made the idiotic statement about not delineating the degrees of torture allowed so as not to help the terrorists to learn to withstand it, was – how do you train against drowning?
Mad Dogs @
70
I agree with you that getting WH asses off the hook is the key thing here. That said, I must cite Parkinson’s third law: “Delay is the deadliest form of denial.”
It looks like a week of delay will kill this beast for this term and hopefully forever. I don’t think that the Judiciary Committee’s hearings will provide sufficient delay by themselves, but perhaps they can buy sufficient time that a few sentient democratic senators can pull their asses off the sidelines long enough to finish out the week. One can only hope.
1,270 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Harden Smith:
For those who have been gnashin’ their teeth and rending their garments and wailing that we are almost a fascist entity, I have news for ya…IT’S ALREADY HERE! We are now a fascist nation.
We have been torturing prisoners, holding folks without due process, stealing citizens’ right to vote and invading soverign nations who didn’t attack us for over three years. No matter what happens in this fake legislative process, nothing can save us from our history now. Even if we succeed in winning the next two elections, the frail thread of constitutional, republican government which is comprised of historical experience and cultural memory has been broken…history and culture can not be “fixed” by legislative fiat, witness our experience with slavery and our unwillingness to address that reality.
I will continue to work hours away from my job on the phones and at doorsteps, I will continue to give money we can not afford to candidates that don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of winning in a fixed game but I won’t lie to people. I won’t tell folks that we are not yet a criminal society, and I won’t argue with ‘em when they speak of the the fear of losin’ their jobs for expressing political positions.
This is the reality folks and it won’t change until we rewrite our charter with ourselves and eliminate the corporate oligarchy based on capital that has destroyed our democracy. This is it, no more arguing amongst ourselves about tactics or definitions or ideology…we call a spade a shovel and take no shit from those who try and hide behind the Bill of Rights while they are shiovin’ it up our asses.
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER THIS GOVERNMENT IS NOT GUNNA DO IT FOR YA!!!
Christie, I tried calling Feinstein’s office with the number you gave in the thread below and it appears to be a fax. The correct number is 202 224-3841.
Rayne #75 -
See balkin.blogspot.com September 22 post with link pdf to military commissions bill. I think that is what you are looking for.
Balrog @ 77
It allows them to say, “We had a hearing. What more do you want? Fuck off.”
The good guys, anyway. And the bad guys came as unprepared for and incapable of making a case as they ever do–I just wish that could be enough to let us hand them their asses and show them the door.
LL @ 86
were you able to learn anything (like WHERE WAS FEINSTEIN) from your call?
meta @ 83
Jon Stewart said on The Daily Show the other night that they could grow gills…pointing out, as usual, the ridiculousness of these kinds of responses.
LL at 86 — it is a FAX number. I thought I labeled that pretty clearly in the post. Will go back and check when I get time.
Well Arlen’s going to give a speech to the National Press Club at 1 on cspan2. Maybe he can give us the text of his amendment, since I can’t find it either despite searching and calling.
Hmmm . . . I seem to remember something from a while back about this . . .
Bush is the epitome of “light and transient,” and this legislation is but one more example.
Maybe putting it in his vernacular will help: You don’t throw away the Magna Carta, the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, or the terrorists will win!
Senate Judiciary Committee – September 25, 2006
“Examining Proposals to Limit Guantanamo Detainees’ Access to Habeas Corpus Review”
i had to compress the mp3 and split it into parts 1 & 2… the link to both is here.
OT– propaganda 101.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0925.html
As have I.
I want my country back.
That graphic of the Magna Carta is making me see red. I used to think conservatives were all about unraveling FDR’s New Deal. Now, it becomes apparent that they are trying to roll back any advances made after 1214.
Mad Dogs @ 70
What Mad Dog Said!
finally bill has seen the light! lets hope he continues to speak out whenever repugs and their sycophants attack progressives. hello dems this is how to respond ok? you’ve been schooled by a master politician! church!!!!
selise, thanks a lot!
OT, but, according to TPM:
“CT-SEN: Lieberman To Characterize Lamont As Favoring “Immediate Withdrawal” From Iraq”
http://tinyurl.com/ow93j
meta @ 74
Only if you are a Republican.
Gerald Ford got the ball rolling by pardoning Nixon. Then Bush Sr. pardoned the Iran Contra criminals right out from under Special Prsocutor Lawrence Walsh. Some were under investigation, some were under indictment, Casper Weinberger was either about to start his trial or mid trial (I forget)
OT– a little preview of Byron Dorgan’s Cmte Meeting today:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld…..603486.htm
angie,
Much the same could be said about McConnell’s whole political career.
Bingo, Hugh!
looseheadprop @ 99
OT …as Ned put so succintly (sic) in his letter to Senator Lieberman yesterday:
“Our own intelligence agencies now confirm that the Iraq War is
undermining America’s security and credibility at our nation’s peril.”
and for all things Lamont… http://www.nedlamont.com/blog
1,270 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Mad Dogs:
Right on, Brother, right fuckin’ on!
This whole legislative thing is kabuki…if we really had a constitutional system with independant courts then we could rely on the fact that the legislature can NOT amend the constitution or eliminate the Bill of Rights by legislative action. However, we don’t have a constitutional, republican system anymore. We are at the same point politically that we were in 1858-1860 except we don’t have Abe Lincoln as president at the crisis point…we have a fascist oligarch.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE MOTHERFUCKIN’ AMMUNITION!!!
Christy,
Great post.
Really great.
Selise,
Tanks for the MP3
angie @ 96
We wouldn’t want to affect the upcoming election, now would we?
Eureka Springs #87 — thanks, but I think that’s the entire bill, doesn’t delineate what Specter-Levin want to change.
I am SO disgusted.
I should clarify that: I am SO disgusted with the complete lack of responsiveness to the American public.
I am SO disgusted that this is not settled law, that it is in turmoil because of one administration.
Apple Canyon 2 @ 82
You remember “The Sting” starring Robert Redford and Paul Newman?
Of course you do!
The central premise in “The Sting” was “The Big Con”.
For those who need a wee bit of background, “The Big Con” consists of a “little con” that grabs all of the target’s attention.
The target thinks he’s the bee’s knees ’cause he’s so smart to have seen and figured out the “little con” and is going to beat it.
Meanwhile, “The Big Con” goes totally unoticed, and the target, sitting there fat, dumb and happy, is taken to the cleaners.
Good ol’ KKKarl loves him some button-pushing! And that’s just what he’s done here.
Push those buttons on the Right and they’ll howl about protecting US from terrorists!
Push those buttons on the Left and they’ll howl about protecting US from the erosion of law and liberty!
Meanwhile “The Big Con” goes on and the target is fleeced.
Anything look familiar here? *g*
Ta for the thanks!
selise @ 42
Called Leahy. They’ll request it.
Thanks for the live blogging, folks. I must say, reading Leahy’s remarks brings tears to my eyes. Consistently, he is there, standing up for the Constitution.
A poster at kos has made an anti-torture video – please go there and recommend the diary:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/25/1206/04789
Then watch the video and rate it up on Youtube so it gets LOTS of attention!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lskKZ5QPiEc
Y’see, I’m still at a loss as to why ex post facto doesn’t apply here. Okay, yeah, I get that the original abuses those parts of the Constitution were targeted at were when crimes were retroactively declared, so people could be punished.
But the wording doesn’t specify that. Also, I think the spirit of the concept would apply to legitimizing what had been a blatant abuse of power. In both cases, the little guy gets nailed for things that are justified after the fact.
My copy of the US Constitution still says this in Article I Section 9:
FDL Legal Department (= not me), would this abomination be considered an ex post facto law and thus unconstitutional? If signed into law, would anyone have standing to argue for an injunction on that (or any) basis?
Well, Rayne I just got off the phone with Patrick at Specter’s DC office and he says he knows of no amendment. I pressed him on it and said that it is being circulated (according to the CCR) and he said Specter is concerned about habeas corpus and there is no amendment that he is aware of and it is up to the Senator to decide.
Right now Specter talking about habeas corpus on cspan2– no mention of the amendment.
Some of us are better than this. As for the rest of them, they must have failed high school History.
op99 @ 117
_____
The Bushzies could give a shit about “unconstitutional.” That’ll take years to get decided, by which time Bush may have been able to seat the 5th Supreme Court vote he needs to back his play.
_
Senator Collins office in Bangor didn’t get calls today before mine, or so the staff person said. 9Don’t know if folks are calling the DC offices.) Snowe’s office said they have had a number of calls on the Geneva Convention.
What Mad Dog Said and you can be sure that I emphasized that in my telephone messages.
OT..another and very disturbing “take” on Bush’s “comma” remark by trisero at Hullabaloo.
Addressing Bobby G and Rayne here.
Are we all missing the new piece with unknowns and a new retroactive immuninty (kabuki) date 1997?
Rayne, lhp, Agreed! Dems need to sleep in the halls this week. Reminds me of the West Wing episode where everyone slept in the VP’s office in order to stop the thugs from sneaking in legislation.
Norske! Get yer patriotic butt to the capitol now and rally these dern dim dems!
Not a good morning for us, then. And I checked into Making Light this morning and learned Mike Ford had died, suddenly, last night. (The Dragon Waiting, The Last Hot Time, The Final Reflection, How Much For Just the Planet: that Ford.) Greatly to be missed.
I did a 4-up color ‘torture’ poscard layout; I mailed it to LindyH as a PDF, after printing a couple of sheets to make sure it worked. If anyone wants it e-mailed direct: pj dot evans at usa dot net. 57K file.
IANAL but my undestanding of ex post facto is that it applies to criminalizing behavior retroactively. It does not apply to decriminalizing retroactively criminal behavior. So you can not pass a law today that says you can’t shop on Sunday and anyone who has shopped on Sunday in the past is now criminally liable. You can pass a law that says people can shop on a Sunday and if they did so in the past since it is OK now it was OK then.
BobbyG @
120
We weren’t asking what the Administration thought about this, we were asking what legal experts thought about it. And if legal experts did think it applied here, then perhaps some congresscritters might speak up.
Its difficult to believe that we are debating (1) ex post facto legislation regarding (2) torture adn the Geneva Conventions.
What has this country become that there is even discussion or debate on these issues?
If the Democrats don’t invoke a nuclear option, . . .
Even Joe Sixpack gets this.
“The sentiment that ex post facto laws are against natural right, is so strong in the United States, that few, if any, of the State constitutions have failed to proscribe them.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Isaac McPherson, August 13th, 1813
Mad Dogs @ 70
The timing of this “debate” is suspect, also. Remember when Bush transferred the 12 “worst” detainees to Guantanamo? Many terrorism experts, interrogators, and even FBI head Mueller came out and said that extreme interrogation techniques weren’t needed, aren’t bing used, and were ineffective, anyway?
This is all political, folks. Bush and Rove don’t care about torture, they just want to keep the definition as vague as possible and then box the Democrats in on this “debate.” The second any Dems vote against this bill, they’ll be branded as soft on terrorism. So right before the mid-terms, Democrats become the party of wusses. Again.
Rove and Bush get a twofer on this one: get out of jail free and keep the political focus on fear, fear, fear.
It’s going to take some pretty quick and witty minds to come up with a Democratic response to fight them on this. Personally, I find everything, in every way, unbelievably surrealistic and depressing about this whole issue.
Hugh @ 125
In the cases we’re talking about here, one might argue that by de-criminalizing a form of punishment, that implies that whatever the punishment was for is now considered criminal behavior when it hadn’t been so previously.
just john @ 126
Professor Jonathan Turley has already chimed in regarding what an utter POS this whole thing is.
Like that’ll stop the Bushzies. And the congresscritters’ aggregate spine record with respect to Boy King George to date is hardly reassuring.
_
EvilDrPuma @
88
Dr Evil, if we keep up the good fight long enough it will be enough.
I’m with Christy 1,000 percent. Loss of habeus corpus = total destruction of the American way of life and everything that means “America” to anybody who still cares. Thank you for the Magna Carta picture. God, this country is run by such terrible, heartless fools.
I have a blog. Millions of us have blogs. What can we do to get people registered and to the polls? I’ve been a doubter before, but these criminals going after the most basic right in Anglo-American jurisprudence makes me mad as hell.
We need something simple, like a link to a page where everyone can find out how to vote in their home precincts.
Specter just said that he is going to introduce an amendment to preserve habeas corpus. Won’t commit on whether he will vote yes/no on the bill.
(maybe he should tell his staff.)
Cspan2 has Spector at the Press Club and he’s being questioned about torture.
Question won’t the bill give lawmakers amnesty?
Specter says he doesn’t know if anyone in the govt authorized torture.
The Bybee memo advocated “rugged methods”, not torture.
OMG!
Imman – I’m running around with way too much to do today and I’ve only skimmed quick (I got a screen freeze trying to get my kos up)
Here’s the problem with Rasul IIRC. The prior “anti-torture” legislation revised that habeas statute, 28 U. S. C. sec. 2241, to do a “carve out” and say that statute will not apply in Guantanamo. That was one of the Hamdan issues. Stevens sidestepped it by saying that the statutory provision did not apply to the habeas cases already pending when it was passed, and the case before the court, Hamdan, was already pending, therefore the court could go forward – without having to deal with the issue of whether or not the change to the statute disenfranchised the court from its Article III powers.
So I think that leaves one ground only – case law issues of inherent jurisdiction which are impacted by comity and similar matters. I’m not sure how that shakes out and, for that matter, what will happen with the pending habeas cases with the legislation changed to allow all the things that happened to Dilawar to be “legal” even for innocent civilians.
I swear I’m so pissed I’m even thinking way way outside the box. Try Amendment XIII outside the box. I know taxpayer suits are usually DOA, but where something (like church and state issues) is specifically prohibited by the Constitution, they have found standing. Whether anyone else has habeas or not,
I know I’ll cool down later and say – nah Mary, that was just stupid – but I’m almost ready to go file for injuction based on illegal use of taxpayer funds to engage in slavery.
pissed pissed pissed.
And then my screen freezes, links won’t work, formatting doesn’t swap, and I have to get to work!
karendc at dkos live blogged the hearing FROM THE GALLERY!!!
angie @ 133
Typical Specter: Hold obscure hearings, offer an amendment, posture, cave.
Jane Hamsher @ 35
I agree someone needs to stand up and speak the truth. Brilliant orator or not, Feingold seems the most likely one.
Never, ever, ever count on Obama to take a stand on anything important. He won’t do it. I’m a constituent who keeps tabs; you never know what he will do until you read about the vote afterwards.
Also, most of Obama’s speeches (and written statements) are so convoluted you can’t tell if he has a position or what it might be. They are also utterly boring and long winded. I suspect someone else wrote the 2004 convention speech.
I can’t wait to vote against Obama in 2010.
Mary — I think being required to stay awake for ridiculous amounts of time in order to answer questions counts as “involuntary servitude.”
C-SPAN 3 going right now to Senate hearing on National Intelligence Estimate and conduct of the War…live….
Dorgan up on cspan3.
Rep. Jones is present…good for him.
(September 25, 2006 — 01:15 PM EDT)
Exclusive: Rep. Pelosi (D-CA) takes a stand on the Iraq/Terrorism NIE: “The classification of the reported NIE should be reviewed. And at a minimum, a redacted version should be issued.”
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..009966.php
justjohn – I was kind of thinking the “being purchased off warlords” and chained is somewhat reminiscent.
Got off the phone with an extremely polite aid in McConnell’s office but my voice was shaking I was so angry. When he asked for my specific concerns I let him know and when I was done I asked him how he could justify the Sentor’s position and he didn’t even try – just “I’ll pass your concerns along.”
When I asked him about how it could be that the Arar matter has been kicking around forever and Canada has finished a long investigation and the Congress of the United States has not even held ONE HEARING, not one, and how does that happen in the United States of America – the silence was very protracted.
I had to apologize for ranting at the poor kid.
Just coming to consciousness after a frickken’ migraine. Called DiFi’s DC office. Got a very sympathetic staffer who after I made some remark about not trusting this President to determine what is and is not torture, said that she completely understood my sentiments. I am guessing they are getting a lot of calls because she had the “I’ll mark you down for preserving Habeas Corpus” thing down cold.
they just showed the audience and there are lots of young people there. some of them are wearing orange tshirts with words written on them– ‘justice’ was one I was able to read.
I missed the Senate Judiciary hearing this morning. Did Sen. Murkowski say anything?
angie @ 143
Jones from NC ? I really like him for he is a truth seeker. He shows up when no other republican will for important meetings on the war. Have e-mailed him more than once with compliments.
Mary — now the history of the 13th is something I am very familiar with — great idea.
Another out-of-the-box thought — does pre-trial torture count as “punishment” for purposes of the 5th A. double jeopardy clause?
1,270 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
HeirofPatriots:
AHMEN citizen…AH-fuckinMEN!!
We are findin’ out just how far down the fascist infection has traveled in the Democratic Party’s bloodstream…Obama is a black Joe Lieberman and if you look at the leadership positions in both the House and Senate you will find anti-choice, right-wing blue dogs and amoral political opportunists who have conflicting loyalties when considering matters of foreign policy and national security. The Democratic Party has been taken over by it’s right-wing…I used to call ‘em Republicrats but now I call ‘em fascist enablers.
There hasta be a blogosphere attack aimed at the Democratic leadership in BOTH the house and senate to derail this shameful sham legislation and take it out on the campaign trail and shove it right up Karl Rove’s ass.
KEEP THE FAITH, THAT LOUD SOUND YOU HEAR IS OUR HISTORY CALLING ON US RIGHT NOW!!!
Ed*ard Teller @ 148
Three were present
Leahy
Specter
Cornyn
ET– she was not there. only Leahy, Specter and Cornyn showed up.
Eureka Springs AR– that’s the one.
Jones says he is a conservative Republican and that he wishes more of his colleagues were with him– he is almost breathless with emotion.
Good post over at HuffPo:
My wife just figured it out
“The reason Americans think the Democratic Party is “weak on terror” or “weak on security” is because Democrats don’t stand up to Republicans.”
JackieBlue @ 154
i know it sounds like i’m insane… but i can’t help asking myself… do the Ds want to lose?
New thread gang.
I have to go – I put a mess up at Kos, but maybe I can go back and fix links, typos, codes etc. later – some of the substance is there though.
Imman – even if it is not nuts, there’s a framing issue I’m not afraid of: Challenge to Republican legislation as Unconstitutional slavery. ;)
I like the 5th too – what I like about the slavery issue is it frames the “detention forver without charges” issue.
Here’s why I am sooo furious. I am actually in favor of a well thought though approach to security detentions – I think that something is needed for the overall situation (although I can understand why some may not agree). But what happened to America that the need for a security detention to figure out what is going on became a get out of jail free card for engaging in torture and then covering it all up with blackhole detentions?
So I’m having to fight tooth and toenail against the crappy evil being perpetrated by Congress instead of work with people on resolving the problems presented by sitautions where there may be a strong risk but a lack of evidence or a need to proceed more quickly – exigencies thathave to be dealt with in the law all the time and don’t mean that people can just become animals with no accountability.
arggh
Is there a link to this quote? Even though this is a 400 percent increase over the Cheney “One Percent Doctrine” as outlined by Ron Suskind, it is still pretty fucking damning.
So 95 percent of the detainees the Republicans so eloquently label as terrorists who want to kill you as soon as you vote for a Democrat, were nabbed because some cocksucker saw an easy way to bang his neighbors ol’ lady, slap his bratty kids around and make $5K US by just dropping a dime to the gubmint saying I got’cher terrist rightchere.
What a fukin’ deal!!
I’m with Christy on this. From this point forward, anybody who claims to be a Republican is as far from being American as is ideologically possible.
This administration is running a Terrorist Multiplier program. People around the world do not hate America or freedom, they hate the perversion of these ideals and the application of the totalitarian worldview of the neocons, who now encompass all Republicans and the religious American taliban as well.
I laugh deep belly laughs when I read folks whimpering about the divisiveness of the far left bloggers, and paint Republicans as centrists and pictures of strength and security. Clearly they are not paying attention.
Oilfieldguy @ 158
no transcipt as of yet (and in a quick look, i didn’t see it in the submitted written statement), but you can hear it for yourself (and get it exactly)…. i’ve posted a link to the mp3 of the hearing upthread @ 95..
Balrog @ 131
Yes, I agree…I just wish the good fight wasn’t taking so bloody long.
Mary @ 145
I wonder if it was the same kid I railed at this morning over McConnell’s calling the Dem hearings on the conduct of the war “a stunt.”
ooops. Good thing I did a quick proofread of his. I spelled conduct “confuct.” mmmhhh. Not a bad new word as in “Because of Rumsfeld’s confuct of the war in Iraq we’re all screwed.”
selise @ 159
Seventy to 90 percent of the Iraq detentions in 2003 were “mistakes,” U.S. officers once told the international Red Cross.
This is from an AP article published Sept. 17th.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ican_hands
One of the many/most upsetting stories I’ve read lately was on HuffPo.
A US woman lawyer (can’t remember her name) told the story of a detainee at Guantanamo that she’s representing.
When US bombs started falling on Kabul in 2002, this individual and his wife fled to the countryside to stay with the wife’s family. Seems the husband was unknown to the local warlords and they turned him over to US troops and got a $5000 reward for their effort.
He’s been confined in the US concentration camp at GB ever since. His new baby was six months old when he last saw her, which makes her five now.
Heartbreaking. And criminal. I went back to HuffPO but it’s no longer posted and I couldn’t find a link.
I’m sure the Rear Admiral was referring to the Seeton Hall studies – google that and Guantanamo and you’ll get a pdf link.
Mary’s right about where the info comes from, but if you have trouble googling it, that’s because it’s spelled
Seton Hall. (only one “e”)
Not trying to be anal-retentive here about spelling, just want it to be easier to find for folks.
What I don’t get, when the Republicans start talking about ‘not letting the terrorists know our techniques’, is the Golden Rule: “Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You.” What’s so hard to understand about that? Didn’t these guys go to Sunday School?
We have been so beaten down with the fearmongering ‘us vs. them’ mentality that Congress and much of America would rather discard our basic premise of human rights, human dignity, and fairness. This means that we will no longer be able to claim our status as a beacon of light, life, liberty and justice for all. Ms. Liberty’s light has been extinguished, and the Constitution has been placed in the outhouse for other uses.
We MUST frame this debate as it should be, and not let them disfigure it with the ‘fear of terrorism’ mantra. This is about TRUTH, JUSTICE and the AMERICAN WAY!
I’m so sorry that Mr. Bush and his neocons chose to listen to the BAD legal advice of Gonzales and Yu. But this does not condone after-the-fact changes that violate the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions!
Thanks Christy for the post. And Jane for the comments. Love and peace to you both. If you want true democrats in the senate…not just in name only. Jean Hay Bright is running against Olympia Snowe and stands a good chance to win. With No money from the dem party. The reason. She has no money/corporate backing. Snowe has fallen about 20 points since March in internal Maine opolls. ..which I trust more than national. Here is the reason she can win. Our elections are fair..one of the few states which are. One of our biggest newspapers, The Bangor News, is fair although repub. owned. Snowe won’t meet with families of Iraq soldiers. Has voted with Bush 80% of the time. Her spots on TV say independent not republican. There is a debate coming up in Oct. on Maine pbs between Snowe and Hay Bright. Dems. are way too corporate and this race proves it. Sorry to get off topic.
It is time for us all to check out “The Body in Pain” by Elaine Scarry ISBN 0-19-503601-8.