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My original title for this post, "Arianna on Big Dog," was abandoned for obvious reasons.
Anyway, Crooks and Liars has a clip of Arianna discussing the Chris Wallace drubbing that Clinton delivered on Fox News today, and she also writes about it here. Amidst the praise that I do believe he deserves for calling out both Fox News and the wingnuts and placing the blame for 9/11 on the apathetic shoulders of George W. Bush, I think Arianna does much to place Clinton's words and actions in context:
But instead of popping champagne corks, let's make use of this moment by stepping back and giving it some context. What can we learn from what happened?
More specifically, what can Bill Clinton learn? That the bipartisan love-in he's been engaged in over the last several years has resulted in jack-squat.
After providing President Bush cover for his disastrous handling of Katrina, after trying to get himself adopted by George Bush, Sr., after giving Laura Bush the keynote slot at his Global Initiative Conference, after going along with Rupert Murdoch's fundraiser for Hillary -- after all that, he got exactly nothing.
It's quite clear from the content and the passion he showed during the interview that Clinton knows the score. So if he's aware that Fox News is out to get him, why does his wife do fundraisers with Rupert Murdoch? If he knows that George W. Bush makes us less safe every day by virtue of his actions, why does he consistently provide cover for Commander Codpiece? As Arianna points out -- he wants it both ways. And that is entirely problematic.
I'm glad Bill is finally fighting back against the wingnuts who have made his life a living hell since the day he took office, but I think Arianna is right -- he needs to stop legitimizing them with the other hand for personal political gain. If he wants to step forward and lead in this particular battle I think that's great, he's a natural leader and nobody could draw attention to the critical issues he addresses in his interview like he can. But the fact remains that he's going to have to show a little more consistency and let his actions match up with his words before people are going to feel good about falling in line behind him.
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Jane!!
Kobe!!
Arianna!!
Big Dog!!
And pumpkin muffins for everybody!!
And yes — Big Dog needs to walk the walk, be a REAL progressive. I’ll even settle for communitarian — but no more of this fence-riding. You’d think by now he’d be a bit sore from all that straddling anyhow.
The grassroots are starving for the authentic; every time the authentic surfaces, we race to reach for it like starving souls thrown a scrap of crust. The opposition sees it, changes the subject IMMEDIATELY as they did after the Clinton interview on Faux, by injecting the OBL uncertainty into the media. If the opposition sees it, why don’t our own progressive statesmen see it??
I think if he looked down deeper, he’d realize that it because he lost his grip on the authentic that he was crucified by the VRWC. They can’t compete with the authentic; they don’t understand it.
Fitz! Socks the Cat!
Not sure this is entirely fair. Clinton has tried to play the role of the elder statesman. Obviously that means nothing to the wingnuts, but he’s tried, and judging from his performance today, I’m sure he’s just about fed up, albeit belatedly.
Oh thank you Jane and Arianna– I am one happy progressive reading these words.
This is true and needed to be said.
Hillary, are you listening?
Demz!
While I don’t disagree with Arianna’s point, she was one of those right wingnuts who were criticizing Clinton since the moment he took office.
Shorter what I said in a thread yesterday:
Bush and the RW declared political “war” on Clinton way back when Clinton beat his daddy.
This is Cain/Abel, Jacob/Esau…Bush’s fight for political birthright knotted together with his personal daddy issues…ah’m better than you’m. And the 2006 campaign is just one of Bush’s proxy wars.
It has always been.
So Clinton goes on Faux News, rips Chris Wallace a gaping new asshole, and Ms. Huffington is still pissed off?
Howzabout pointing out all the Dems who have gone on Faux and said absolutely nothing when they had the chance?
Sit down and shut up, Arianna.
dr nobody @ 2
I hope you are right and Clinton is fed up, but the fact of the matter is that his actions have enabled the very people he is lashing out against. It would be great to see an end to that.
dave @ 8
I think her points are valid and she’s deserving of more respect than this.
Clinton is entirely emblematic of what’s wrong with the Democratic party and the progressive movement in general. No balls. Wants to be liked too much. Too beholden to corporate interests who are controlled by REPUKES to be able to really fight for anything that matters.
If you understand about the financial elite (which Clinton is a part of, now) and Saudi oil interests, you’ll understand Clinton can’t step on too many toes because his own day at the trough will be over the minute he does.
If he starts acting, on a DAILY basis, like he did with Chris Wallace today, I’ll change my opinion. But until MORE PEOPLE take on the repukes in the MSM like Bob Schieffer, Tim Russert, George Stephanopoulis, et al, (George is now a repuke. Look at the shit he spews and look at all the time he gives to whores like Cokie Roberts).
We have to attack like a pack of mad dogs. until we can do that, the repukes will remain in power.
Allen’s teammates say he used the n-word regularly back then.
I bet he was making up words then, too.
I don’t think I would ever tell anyone working toward restoring our country and our Constitution and our reputation in the world to sit down and shut up.
Yeah. I got torn to pieces over the last two days making the same point various places. Got called a concern troll. That’s fine, but it didn’t get us anywhere. Clinton should not have trusted Fox. No one should trust Fox.
ferg @
6
Yes, she was. I’m happy she has seen the light, but past performance does matter. Whatever she says should be taken with a big grain of salt.
ferg #6
dave #8
Arianna thrives on sticking knives in people’s backs, regardless.
Beware of Greeks, etc.
Big Dog has given these utter nazis cover for far too long. He could have done much to stop and/or discredit them since their illegal seizure of power in 2k. Now that they need to destroy him to draw attention away from Cheney/Chimpy’s failures, he’s finally pissed. I’ll take it.
Arianna has been true since her conversion. Give her a chance ands don’t be racist.
Sharkbabe: what ever happened to Socks the cat? I used to have a framed official picture of Socks above my cat’s food bowl.
ON the subject. WJC has a compulsive need to be liked and I think he has really bitten his tongue in order to respect the tradition of former presidents not attacking the current pres. I hope..hope he will finally call bullshit on Bush. WJC has an amazing mind and personality and could really help his and our country if he goes on the attack.
Jane Hamsher @ 10
I agree. Clinton needs to do the same thing across the board, not just when his own record is under attack and when the defense he has to make does not impinge on positions Senator Clinton has taken. Biggest problem Dems have is their unreliable/sporadic willingness to challenge the Republicans on national security issues — and his selective silence on that is not helpful.
(You okay, Jane?)
Jane Hamsher @ 10
I disagree. As pointed out above, she took plenty of shots at Clinton when she was on “the other side.”
And Ms. Huffington is plenty snarky with her “adoption” comment… and what does she mean when she says Clinton “got exactly nothing” out of his attempts at “perestroika” with the wingnuts? She should listen to his theories on what he’s trying to do with his Global Warming Initiatives as expressed on Jon Stewart last week.
Does she really think, because Clinton’s been working with Bush Sr. and let Laura Bush speak at his conference, that Clinton thought Faux News would go easy on him? That’s a nitwit idea. I have little doubt Clinton knew exactly what he was getting into when he sat down with Chris Wallace… in fact, I’ll bet he was counting on it.
Ms. Huffington is welcome to her snark, but let’s not pretend it’s anything but, and let’s not get upset because she gets snark in response.
Clinton needs to stand up and fight with us for control of at least one house of congress the next six weeks. It’s infuriating because he is so good at calling BS and throwing their crap right back in their faces.
I’m still angry with him for his fence straddling response to Larry King’s question about the Connecticut Senatorial race…
KING: What do you make of the Lieberman race?
CLINTON: It’s a complicated thing. There were reasons other than Iraq which caused problems, and now it seems to me that there are reasons other than Iraq which are muddying the water there. But, you know …
(CROSSTALK)
CLINTON: …most of the independent voters are against our Iraq policy, but most of the Republican voters are for it. So it just depends on how many Republican votes Joe gets, as opposed to the Republican nominee, and how many independent and Democratic votes Lamont gets. It’s really sort of an unpredictable race.
KING: Are you supporting Lamont?
CLINTON: I am but, you know, my — I don’t have the same view of this as some people do. My view is Connecticut is an unmitigated blessing for the Democrats because Lieberman has said if he wins he’s going to vote with us to organize the Senate.
Quite frankly, I don’t even think what he said made sense, i.e. Lieberman will win if the more Republicans vote for him than Dems and Independents vote for Lamont. But it’s okay if Lieberman wins?
Anyway - I hope he is serious about doing WHATEVER he can do to make sure at least one house goes Dem…
I’m interested in getting one of these houses back, because that’s the only way, I think, we can move away from the philosophical and political and economic direction the country has taken in the last five years. So I’m doing what I can to help the Democrats win the House and the Senate or both.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRA.....kl.01.html
scarecrow @
20
I’m doing great, scarecrow. Thanks for your fabulous participation on book salon today, it was duly noted and appreciated.
Bill is walking on a tight rope trying to position his wife as a moderate for her presidential run. Conservatives don’t see that rope as a rope at all. They see it as a major dagger and they are pointing it right back at the Clintons.
The Clintons will NEVER be accepted by the Republicans.
Those of you who remember me from Friday night when I was a tad ‘over the top’ (right on, redshift, I was over the top); this was my initial post in that thread:
I’m glad to know that others worry about this as evidenced by this thread. But I also need to go into self-impose lurk mode for tonight lest I get worked up again.
Listening, learning, and loving FDL. Night all.
Come on people, for an ex-president to criticise a sitting president in any way is a huge deal. It is the third rail of ex-presidentitude. He is bound by traditition. A bullshit tradition, but one nonetheless.
To say he’s “given cover” to these neocons is just bullshit.
Clinton did well in the interview, but walking into an ambush still means someone screwed up.
Good intelligence allows us to avoid this sort of thing.
I couldn’t be happier that Big Dog ripped that little weasel Chris Wallace a new one. As for Rupert Murdoch and Laura Bush being at his Global Initiative Conference, jeeze, big deal, so what. He’s not President anymore. If “they” want to get on board with his Global Initiative goals, more power to them.
I watched Fox for the second time ever today just to see the big dog fly once again. Chris Wallace, well, does fox by makeup by the pound and could breathing that stuff cause political blindness?
The round table discussion afterward was as disgusting as one could imagine. When the torture issue was raised and Juan from NPR managed to slip a bit of truth in Brit Fumed demanded the issue be removed from the table and it was. Nothing to discuss here folks it’s all good.
SOB’s
The Big Dog is playing chess. Everyone else is playing checkers. By reaching out to 41 and Laura, he is cleverly and clearly isolating and exposing w. for the outlier he is.
As far as Rupert, who knows, down the road this might pay dividends. I don’t think FOX will ever be an organ of the left or even fair and balanced, but it might moderate a bit. In the mean time, his money will spend as well as anyone’s for good projects.
dave @ 21
If you read Christy this morning or me yesterday, you will know that according to Jay Carney, Clinton’s press secretary, Clinton got completely sandbagged and was both taken by surprise and plenty pissed. So unless you’d like to advance the argument that he’s lying through his teeth, I think there is a big, big hole in your central thesis.
I think Arianna says/writes things that need to be considered and listened to, but when she’s talking quickly her accent/articulation is sometimes a bit hard to comprehend (at first).
I did have to listen to that clip twice to fully understand her (to get used to her pronunciation). I think if she’d speak just a little bit slower it might help.
(I also realize these shows give limited time to reponses, so if one has a point to make you’d better speak quickly to get everything in.)
Now, for me, I want to know exactly what she’s saying. However, a viewer who hasn’t listened to her much before might just tune her out if they can’t understand her accent in the first sentence or so. Thus her contribution, for some, becomes moot and they ignore what she is saying.
#30,
Fox will never moderate. It is right-wing wacko all the way and forever.
Jane Hamsher @
31
I’ll be honest - I doubt that.
I don’t think it’s a “central thesis” however - the central thesis is, does Huffington think Clinton thinks by working with the wingnuts on his projects - in the way nearly all ex-presidents have worked with “opposing” sides - they’re going to go “easy” on him.
I don’t believe that for a minute.
Sharkbabe @ 17
Sharkebabe, I’m with you. What Clinton did in this interview is sooooooo much more than we’ve seen from any DEM in recent history that it (almost) got me out of the funk of I’ve been in for days. Would that our Democratic leaders in Congress would take note.
But beyond the cathartic rush of seeing Clinton actually defend his record is the fact that he actually set the record straight and he didn’t cave.
To me that’s the message to the Beltway elite — a message I’ve been preaching here for the last couple of weeks. Cave and you’re toast. Call them on their bullsh*t and make the Rethugs dance.
‘tr
dr nobody @
26
It’s a tradition that’s gone on FAR too long. Clinton has raised his arse for penetration by the Bushies, just like his goddamed wife did. They are both TRAITORS. I’m so FUCKING SICK of this bullshit.
If you don’t fight evil, especially when you’re in a position like WJC, you ARE evil. Bill has not fought evil. Ergo, he is evil. If he consistently goes on the attack like he did today, I might change my opinion, but until then, he’s a traitor to his party, every bit as much as that motherfucking Lieberman.
It’s as simple as that.
dr nobody @ 26
Please explain how he is “bound by tradition” to have Hillary accept a fundraiser from Rupert Murdoch.
I don’t think one single instance that Arianna cites involves a simple failure to criticize. They are actions, none of which “tradition” compels him to take.
The psychodynamics of this whole situation are about as rich and deep as it gets. But the fact remains, Clinton is intelligent, articulate, highly educated and a former President of the United States. And he still lights up the right wing like a Christmas tree. I was appalled at the way Chris Wallace completely shined him on given the fact that he was POTUS. You don’t see that happen much. But the true colors came out, and I’m not surprised at how Fox played it given how Clinton blew the varnish off his Wallace’s teeth.
I keep thinking about the statement Arianna made here the other day about Hillary. About how she wants to be accepted and reeks of fear. That’s one factor in Bill’s chokehold. It’s also just the simple fact that triangulation has been their meat and potatoes and survival tactic for so many years.
I’m encouraged by his breakout, and appreciate what Arianna has to say about it all. Let’s see if the dems recognize the price they have also paid to get along with these sociopaths.
well, the good news is: Bill is getting LOTS of airplay - even on the local news… the only station that has edited the tape in a wierd way (oh, I bet you can guess!) was the ABC news… looks like they used the Fox “unhinged” promo tape… CBS and NBC have played enough of the tape that there is some context…
I have to agree, Clinton’s wife had a fundraiser by Murdoch and Bill “went along.”
Obviously, being a woman, his wife, the US Senator, isn;t responsible for that.
Bill should have forbade it, like a real man. And if she was going to go ahead anyway, he should have grabbed her by the hair and dragged her out to the car.
Yeah.
Dems are constantly sandbagged on these bobble head shows. It’s high time they all learned to react exactly like Clinton did. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. At least that’s what they say in certain parts of Brooklyn. Clinton is many things, but not stupid. As witnessed on Fox, he knows when to draw the line in BOLD. As for cover for Katrina, no, he could hardly refuse to respond to Bush’s request. I’d like to think he did that for all the right reasons. If he is sincere in his effort to bring people together to remedy the world’s problems, it is win/win. The world doesn’t need politics all the time. The other side may do it that way, but it doesn’t make it attractive. Let reductionism be their game, Bill Clinton is a bigger man than that. Nobody is fooling him, and I don’t think he’ll change his ways.
dr nobody @ 26
Yes traditions are important and we should respect them. Thinks like not lying the country into unnecessary wars or attacking countries that don’t present a threat to us. Or adhering to the constitution, and obeying the laws, and honoring the Geneva Conventions and International agreements against war crimes; and working cooperatively with congress and not branding the loyal opposition as traitors and appeasers. There are lots of traditions that should be followed.
When these get respected, President Clinton can apply for statesman of the century and introduce Laura Bush to the village square dance. Until then, you don’t enable a lawless regime.
Sharkbabe @ 17
It is indeed gratifying to see him give it Wallace with both barrels, it seems that he was more concerned with protecting his “legacy” than actually fighting the rightwingers
Jane Hamsher @ 37
Somehow I doubt that Hillary sought, or needed, his approval for that.
right now, I’ll take whatever I can get… until these bastards are out of office, anyone who stands up to ‘em gets my support
scarecrow @
43
A-friggin-men, scarecrow.
I remember Clinton saying on Jon Stewart that (paraphrasing) he wants to treat the opposition as decent people and disagree with them when it’s appropriate.
The problem, Mr. Clinton, is that you have to realize that quite a few of the opposition *aren’t decent people*!! They’ll either screw you six ways to Sunday right off, or they’ll make nice-nice while stabbing you in the back!
I’ll take Arianna anyday … she’s dedicated a lot to build an alternative to the koolaid media and I respect actions over words.
Clinton was never a progressive - didn’t ever pretend to be one. His approach was “the third way” - not so different from the McCain, Bloomberg, etc rumours seen nowadays. It’s an approach that dismissed progressives and moved the game board to the center.
“As Arianna points out — he wants it both ways/”
That’s Clinton; his strength and weakness. Sometimes he gets it and why would anyone expect him to stop now.
Besides, if he was adopted by George the first he would be a sibling of George the second. Freedom to give a noogie might save the country.
#42,
Clinton does do things for the right reasons, but he still thinks rules of decorum apply. The Regressives are savages (sorry to be blunt) and one needs to anticipate the uncivilized behavior.
Uh…okay…but when Bill Clinton was President, was Arianna a Democrat or a Republican?
I get so confused.
dr nobody @ 15
Is there no room for redemption, for forgiveness, for welcome arms when people see the truth and come to a new understanding?
We are going to need several million of them, including hopefully a lot of powerful people, in order to turn this nation around.
Do not scorn their gradual turn towards the truth. Honor this. It is deeply embarrassing for many, especially men. Shameful to realize you have been on the wrong side morally.
I say welcome them with love and with open arms. WE NEED THEM.
*****NONE***** of the opposition are decent people. Not one fucking soul. They are ALL EVIL. Y’all better get that through your thick skulls.
Sigh…we’re going to lose again. Shit.
Suicide is looking like a better option.
I would like to send Bill a bumpersticker like mine:
“Bipartisan? Sure. I’ll hug your elephant and you kiss my ass”
dr nobody @ 26
I don’t know… I think Carter has been pretty blunt, thank God. Do you really think WJC should be quiet about torture, about Iraq, about wiretapping, about a march toward God knows what form of government?
I think his “statesmanship” has a lot to do with his wife’s political ambitions.
We’ve had lots of discussions over the past week about morality vs. politics, about “doing the right thing” vs winning an election. I think it’s fair to discuss Clinton in this context. We’re Sisyphus trying to roll a rock to the top of the mountain - and he could make that struggle a lot easier.
OT but on the subject of fighting back without fear..sounds like Tester gutted Burns in the debate.
dr nobody @ 45
If you are proceeding from the idea that they do not work in tandem I believe I have to disagree. As Digby says, they now have the ability to be one person working as two — Clinton can work the levers for Lieberman while Hillary comes out in support of Lamont, and whoever wins, they’ve got their bases covered. And if anything goes wrong, well, they’re not responsible for each others’ actions, but quite ready to reap the rewards if it’s a success.
There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s a legitimate political tactic. But to think that they are entirely separate nation states is to give that game a bit more latitude and freedom from responsibility than it deserves.
#55,
Where did you get that one?
I want one too.
SusanD @ 55
ohmygod, I have to have one of these bumper stickers. Please let me know where you got it.
I happen to think that Clinton was a great president who had an affair and got busted. I also know that he loves America. I’ll bet there are a lot of Republican Senators who have had affairs. Under our constitution, bills of rights, the Geneva Conventions, etc. they do not love our America.
Clinton may have lied about his affair, but today, he told Wallace the truth and Wallace would not acknowledge his truth. The only way for Wallace to prove it was not an attack, is to have Bush on the show next week and ask him the same questions.
***
This is wierd….
Guantanamo returnees to be freed during Ramadan
The United States this year sent 29 Saudis home after negotiating a framework agreement with Saudi Arabia for the return of its citizens from the controversial prison.
”All those detainees who came back from Guantanamo are being released for the whole month of Ramadan, to fast Ramadan with their families and celebrate Eid with their families,” Interior Minister spokesman Mansour al-Turki said.
“They will be back after Eid to complete the related procedures,” he said, adding they were serving various sentences. The Muslim fasting month of Ramadan begins this weekend and is followed by the Eid Al Fitr holiday.
Turki said the authorities had already released some over the past month to spend several days with their families in a programme he described as a success.
http://english.alarabonline.or.....=200699-23zalsoz923.htm&dismode=x&ts=23/09/2006 12:09:37
The bipartisan sticker comes from an online company called Northern Sun. Don’t have the link handy, but will look for it.
It’s not about welcoming former Republicans with open arms. A change of mind is a wonderful thing.
But here’s Arianna, who just recently switched sides basically, calling out Bill Clinton for giving too much consideration to the people she just recently supported.
It’s way beyond hypocrisy.
OldCoastie @ 39
ABC has always shown the most rightward bias of the broadcast networks. And they are not particuarly sutble about it.
We’ve had lots of discussions over the past week about morality vs. politics, about “doing the right thing” vs winning an election. I think it’s fair to discuss Clinton in this context. We’re Sisyphus trying to roll a rock to the top of the mountain - and he could make that struggle a lot easier.
I think she offers an nice critique of the situation.
I agree with her points. I’m glad she said what I had been thinking. She’s a strong voice for the change that we need in politics. Her critique opens the door to dialogue about how to move forward to a stronger position and she has the platform to be heard.
OT from Editor and Publisher,
That is one hell of a message to send to the families of the 2695 American dead and 19,945 wounded. Your sons and daughters, husbands and wives, died for a comma. Way to go, Bush.
This sentence saves tonight’s post:
Without it, the label “concern troll” comes to mind. With it, Jane hits the mark exactly, in my book.
Clinton can take care of himself, and he’s earned his stars. He doesn’t need any of us to tell him how to operate. But we are the citizens he might be trying to reach, and it is completely fair to tell him that if he really wants to reach us, then consistency is what we are looking for.
I think we’ll be able to tell whether he was trying to reach us (and help the Democrats in this election cycle) or the ditto-heads (and protect his legacy) in the next few weeks. I’m ready to get in line if he is ready to admit that triangulating with El Diablo makes no sense.
Okay, I misquoted it slightly (it’s on the back of my truck where I don’t see it often). It’s :
“Bipartisanship: I’ll hug your elephant if you kiss my ass”.
Carried at http://www.northernsun.com
By the way, Fred Hiatt is endorsing Lieberman, again.
Fred loves that Iraq War, but is squeamish about shrub’s torcher programs.
Fred disgusts me, I’m trying to sum it all up in this letter to the editor (the WaPo might not publish it, but I can, thanks to the tubez!).
Anyone have suggestions? I know already there is one happy freddy purple thumbs editorial that needs to be thrown back in his face.
Arianna got it right. While Clinton’s smack down of smarmy Wallace was well done, Clinton shouldn’t have been a bit surprised by the Faux-attack dog.
You would think that by now Democrats would have learned the republican version of bipartisanship–Dems just need to ask “How High?” when the GOP tells them to jump. And in Bill Clinton’s case, it means always having to say “I’m Sorry”…
bill clinton has always been part of the problem. he just looks so much better now in comparison tto the evil fascists we now have in power. and of course we need any help we can get and Clinton has such potential if he only had a heart and a spine.
maggie s. @
65
He won’t. Too many conflicting interests. He might, if Hilary divorced him but otherwise, forget it. He will not help us.
Northern Sun bumper stickers
http://tinyurl.com/qb8y9
1,269 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher:
If Al Gore had unleashed Big Dawg in 2000 at least in Florida and Tennessee, the margin would not have been close enough to steal. And we now know that the same folks who created the DLC and stuffed Joltin’ Joe Lieberlier down Connectecutt’s throat hold the Dawg’s leash and pull Hillary’s strings…so let’s cut our psychological dependence on Clinton and not wait for ‘im to lead us anywhere. Let’s go in an entirely different direction and leave Hillary to fight it out for the GOP nomination in ‘08.
Let’s get real here…the fascists have only the ghost of Bill Clinton to blame for the reality they have created. Let ‘em use their resources in that way, in the meantime the die is cast for this November, they have nowhere ta hide and Clinton ain’t gunna give ‘em anymore cover. And for God’s sake somebody please tell Hillary that her game will only play on Republican turf!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, ALL THEY GOT IS THE MONEY AND THEY’LL LOSE THAT BEFORE THE NEW YEAR!!!
I really don’t care who critizes this regime. All’s fair and anything goes. That includes Chavez and anyone else who has been impacted by these monsters.
Bushco broke the old model the moment they stole the Presidency and opened their mouths.
axis of evil, my a**.
Folks need to go back and really look at Clinton’s policies in office - there’s this aura that he was some kind of wonderful democrat - completely missing the anti-progressive analysis that formed his entire career and led to the establishment of all the Dems we fight against now. Giving the “big dog” a pass while trying to oust his buddies is missing how they got there.
Siun #49 — I’d sure hope by now Big Dog has disabused himself of the notion that the Third Way was viable once the right-wing pack of jackals took office.
And I sure hope HRC is clueing in.
Guitar Playing Bastard @ 73
sorry, that wasn’t my comment - I messed up with the quote.
Siun @ 77
absolutely.
drouse @
64
Heard a CBS News Radio report on it earlier today… they played a whole lot of excerpts of Clinton pointing out the “failures” of the “right wing” and the “neocons” before playing, at the very end, the quote about “I tried and failed”… but then they ended with “At least I tried - (Bush) didn’t even try”.
That came from the network, btw… heard it twice in one hour.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 70
Here’s a suggeestion: Ned Lamont’s letter to Lieberman asking him to respond to the NIE assessment wrt Iraq is in a David Sirota post at dkos. You can use the spotlight link that Mark gave us to spotlight the sirota post with the Lamont letter to every political reporter at the Washington Post. Oh, and don’t forget to send a courtesy copy to Fred. I know he’ll appreciate it.
Guitar Playing Bastard @ 54
No, No, and No.
No #1. There ARE decent people in the opposition, and we are winning them over to our side more and more.
No #2. We are NOT going to lose again. There is unprecedented energy in House and Senate races. Keep up the momentum, not a done deal yet.
No #3. You owe it to your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, and neighbor children, to fight as hard as you can. YOU understand what is happening; they do not. They will be the bewildered survivors of the ruins of this nation. Get in line to be suicidal here, but duty is an over-riding goal. We live not for ourselves alone. Despite your pain, which I honor, you OWE it to them to keep fighting until you drop. Good God, man, hae ye no Scottish, Irish, or Welsh blood in ye?
FIGHT!!! SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!
@72 I don’t understand WJC even-though I have followed his career for more than 25 years. The one thing I do know, is that he has heart and spine. I know of no other political or public person who could have survived the 10-15 years of attacks funded by Mellon-Scaife.
What’s interesting about this discussion is the fact that over the past few days, scores of fdlers (including yours truly) have expressed feelings ranging from fury to despair that Dems in Congress have been missing in action on the torture issue.
Yet the one Democrat who clearly voiced his views was — Clinton. So, yes, he’s reached out, at different times, in different ways, to those on the other side. But unlike Frist, Cornyn, McCain, Graham, Lieberman, et al, he’s nobody’s toadie.
Former President Clinton Speaks Out Against White House Terror Legislation
By VOA News
21 September 2006
Former U.S. President Bill Clinton has voiced his opposition to anti-terrorism legislation backed by the White House, saying it would be wrong to approve torture for terrorism suspects.
Mr. Clinton’s comments were broadcast on U.S. radio Thursday, from an interview taped a day earlier. He was referring to President Bush’s proposal before the Senate to narrowly define international standards of treatment for prisoners. The plan would allow intelligence agents to use more aggressive interrogation methods for terror suspects.
Mr. Clinton said such legislation could institutionalize prisoner abuse. He warned that information obtained under such pressure could be unreliable, and he noted that other countries could then justify similar treatment for U.S. troops.
Both the House of Representatives and the Senate are considering President Bush’s legislation.
A House panel on Wednesday reversed itself and endorsed the plan. But the Senate Armed Services Committee has rejected Mr. Bush’s proposal in favor of one that gives prisoners more legal rights.
Slothrop @ 63
Then what about me? I sat there during the impeachment hearings alternating between crying for what was happening to the constitution and cheering on the Congressional Black Caucus.
It’s a pretty standard right-wing tactic to deny a critic the right to have an opinion rather than address the substance of the argument. And I think her points are valid. I do not know why I would reject her right to share them with me.
83,
I really like that. Not to me, but I feel inspired anyway.
Siun @ 77:
I agree. He lost me in 96. This is an interesting moment precisely because he might be giving signals out that he has realigned. Viewed from that angle, it is kind of nice to have Arianna, who knows something about realignment, to give him some tips.
If he keeps walking in this direction, I’ll be pleased. I’m not really expecting that he’ll be able to resist triangulating — because in his interviews this week, talking about what it is like to not be the president, he basically said that he doesn’t have to be responsible for the whole ship, so he can be his own man, and yet, he isn’t getting out in front. I’m not convinced yet. Need to see more before I’ll bite.
Jeez, I know everyone thinks Clinton has a magic wand, but really he doesn’t. Sometimes he even has feet of clay. Let’s not hang him without a trial, that’s what the opposition wants to do. Remember?
Siun @ 77
Yes, Siun. And then there’s executing the retarded.
“President Bill Clinton has Ricky Ray Rector’s death on his conscience. Rector, mentally defective due to a lobotomy, was put to death in Arkansas when Clinton, then the state’s governor, rushed back to Little Rock and oversaw his execution in the midst of the Democratic primary campaign in January 1992. This was a transparent attempt to prove his toughness on crime.”
Most of the link proves what a scumbag shrub is.
But there’s plenty of blame to share. I’d like to think Clinton is going to come round to seeing who the real enemy is, and doing what he can do about it. Now.
alittlemusicalityplease @ 85
And he should absolutely be commended for that. This isn’t a “bash Bill Clinton” session.
Greg Sargent had a wonderful quote about how David Broder only valued the theatrics of the supposed “centrism” of Joe Lieberman and John McCain when their actions betray that they are quite clearly nothing of the sort. The “theatrics”of the Fox appearance were superb. They’ve valuable. And I think that where you went skidding on the ice yesterday, Balrog, was when you tried to argue that they weren’t and folks disagreed with you.
Arianna was cheering Clinton on too, please see the article and the video. So was I. All anybody is asking is that the “theatrics” (and I mean that in a good way — don’t mistake me) get backed up with substance.
Did Arianna have anything to say about the impeachement, Jane — since she was a Republican during that period? Did she raise her voice then about it?
Where was the fearlessness back then when it really counted?
afterthought @ 87
Assuming you mean me I thank you. All encouragement helps.
Obviously there are a few here that don’t like Clinton now, and never did. Is Arianna in that category? I think that’s a fair question
One thing I believe Bill Clinton does owe America an apology for is his signing of the 1996 Telecommunications Act. By authorizing rampant media consolidation subject to FCC approval, it made the media not only more powerful but more beholden to the White House simply by increasing their potential upside.
The PT9/11 defamation and his Fox interview mark Clinton as a victim of a monster he helped create. This is not to call it fair comeuppance, since we all bear the cost. But what a step it would be for him to admit this mistake and lament what it’s given rise to, in the very thick of a campaign.
I was half-expecting Clinton to sue ABC over the docudrama. Apparently he decided not to. So be it. But he remains in high regard, and if he used his bully pulpit with no personal gain to be had and if he spoke in measured terms, he might help inoculate the public against what will surely be hitting it in the weeks ahead.