Glenn is angry about the McCain/Graham/Warner/Bush compromise on torture. So is Susie. Scott calls it exactly for what it is. SusanUnPC at No Quarter put together some choice thoughts, and links to a Balkinization that is a good read as well. I’m sitting here sifting through all of the news I’ve missed the last few days while The Peanut has been ill…and wondering how many more Maher Arars there are out there. And I’m just so pissed, and so disgusted, I don’t even know where to start with all of this.
But one thing is crystal clear to me this morning: if you’ve been wondering if this has all been public kabuki orchestrated and carried out to suppress the Democratic activist base — because the GOP knows that we are ahead at the moment in a lot of unlikely places and that GOTV efforts are crucial to a win for the Dems — stop wondering. Without party activists driving that GOTV, or with them doing so with less enthusiasm than usual, the GOP has a shot at re-taking the momentum in some of the closer districts.
And I will be damned if I will allow Karl and his corrupt band of cronies to pull that off. Again.
I’m as disgusted as anyone else about the torture issue — hell, I’ve written about it a lot, along with all of the other "GOP spits on the Constitution" machinations of the Bush Administration, we’ve aked you guys to phone all over the place trying to inject some spine on the Dem side. But winning in November is the first step — after that, we start looking for better candidates and start building a better Dem coalition.
It’s too late at this point to do anything beyond that — we have less than seven weeks to start the process that saves this nation from the neocons and the Rovian "ends justifies the means" bullshit, and I’m not letting up — no matter how pissed I am.
Let’s take some time this morning and share ideas for getting up off our butts and working the phones, the neighborhoods, the voter registration, the union halls…whatever it takes. I wrote about some ideas earlier in the week, but some real hands-on commentary from all of you on what has and has not worked in your districts this year would be great this morning.
Let’s take this fight right to their doorstep — in every single district, in every single state – and spend a little time contemplating what Henry Waxman or Russ Feingold or John Conyers or Jack Murtha or Byron Dorgan…well, any number of Democrats on the Hill who are pissed…could do with some subpoena power. It’s about damn time someone had the ability to demand some accountability, and a Democratic Congress could do just that.
And we expect them to do just that.
But first things first — we have to get them elected. No matter how pissed we all may be (and that would be plenty in this house), the truth of the matter is there are less than 50 days to the election. Less than 50 days. And I don’t know about you, but giving George Bush and Karl Rove and Dick Cheney and all of their arrogant, law-breaking, unilateral executive power-grabbing cronies a case of severe heartburn is a personal goal in this election cycle. Who is with me?
(The above ukiyo-e print is entitled "Otani Tomoemon V as the Brave Warrior Abeno Sadato in the play ‘Oshu Adachigahara,’" by Toyohara Kunichika (1835-1900), is a woodblock print on paper, published in 1865. Photo by Katherine Wetzel. Beautiful print. You can find more information here at the Japan-Virginia Society website.)
PS — I mistakenly identified Tim Walz as being in MN-02 yesterday. That was incorrect — that’s Colleen Rowley’s district. Tim is in MN-01, and I wanted to be sure and correct that this morning. (Thanks to reader "SJ" for the heads up on that!)
PPS — Bob Geiger has some great cartoons this morning. Thought everyone could use a laugh as much as I could.
Related posts:
- Blue Dog Kabuki: Why Exactly Do They Need Protecting?
- Kiss Up, Kick Down: Our GOP/Media Complex in Action
- Dick Cheney’s Torture Kabuki
- The Greatest Generation did not defeat Hitler so that we would end up with a black one of our own. And butt sex.
- Senate Finance Delays Health Care Vote: Did Baucus Screw Wyden and Lose His Vote?
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Let’s kick some butt!!
As TRex would say: “ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK”!!
Glenn Greenwald has done a masterful job at the analysis of this so-called compromise. I have been stunned at the Democratic silence on this and I don’t believe a filibuster is out of the question. That said, we do have to focus on regaining the Congress but it won’t be worth it if we fatally compromise our principles in doing so.
Also have to give Digby kudos for predicting what just happened.
Stew their asses!
The three repug warriors:
McManny, Smoe, and Jack shit
The in-laws are coming to stay with us for a few days, and I’ve been rushing around a bit more this morning than I had planned getting things ready for their arrival. I promise to hit the latest Libby trial news tomorrow for everyone. Sorry for the day’s delay.
Thank you for expressing outrage for those of us without a voice. waynemadsenreport has said that a Torture house in Turkey was discovered because neighbors smelled blood and heard screams. Children as young as 3 found to have been drugged and sexually assaulted for months. CIA agents deported to US. Guess Turkey just couldn’t stand any more democracy.Wayne Madsen on air america radio with RFK Jr. and Randi Rhodes.
Well, if it’s any comfort, I just opened a mailer from the DSCC, and the theme is “Had Enough?”
With you Christy – I’m gonna keep working but by god, I wanna hold their feet to the fire on this – and Nov 8, we insist on investigation and prosecutions and primary anyone who sits silent in the face of torture.
Ian has a post on this point too that’s worth reading.
The whole idea that our elected officials could actually say that torture is OK because we are morally superior hits at the deepest core of my disgust. And if the dems can’t stand up and say that
WE DO NOT TORTURE HUMAN BEINGS
then there is no hope. period.
Christy — great summary — have fun with the inlaws! *g*
At least the Peanut will have a bigger audience and a LOT of undivided attention!
I’m with you, Let’s kick some butt !!!
I’m tired of all the lies put out by the REPUBLICANTS !!
If people want to donate to Tim Walz—what a great commercial—since he isn’t on fdl blueamerica you can use my actblue:
http://www.actblue.com/page/egregious
Off now to daily sanity walk.
Yard sign idea…I think you can have them made at a place like FastSigns pretty easily. I’m in Maryland, where Michael Steele is pretending to be a Democrat in the Senate race. So:
Steele
supports
Bush
Obviously you can put just about any Repub’s name in there. Should be effective.
————————
Bumper sticker idea:
Torture a Republican
Vote for a Democrat!
one of the most important house races is in vermont and it is easily overlooked. vermont is about to send a socialist to the senate (bernie sanders) but may also send a republican to the house. the challenger for the seat is a lackluster career dem named peter welch. i have been contacting every progressive i know (there are alot of ‘em in vermont) and stressing the importance of the house race. amazed at how many have no idea. gratified at how many are glad to know and how easily “ignited” they are once they learn. GOTV is the key and simply taking the time to talk/write/call people directly is vital.
Hey, Christie! Thanks for falling on your sword about the giving the wrong CD info for Tim Walz. My fault! I gave it to you wrong. Tim Walz is in Minnesota’s FIRST Congressional District. Running against Gil “Georgie’s Boy” Gutnecht, a fiercely Republican Republican. You go, Tim!!
As far as the torture stuff goes, there is a point that I don’t understand.
As a matter of law, one cannot retroactively declare something a crime. The bill that the Democrats have completely failed to deal with so far will make many actions that are currently considered to be crimes legal.
My question is, as a matter of law, if something has been declared legal (after the fact), can it be reclassified as a crime in the future?
If not, then this is the hall pass to beat all hall passes for the criminals running our country.
RevDeb @
9
Is there any debate among dems that the US adhere to the Geneva Conventions?
Is there any debate among dems that torture is inconsistent with American values and law?
It would appear that this is entirely a publican issue.
What are the dems waiting for?
BarbaraM at 14 — I heard from a couple of other folks in Walz’ district that what you see in that commercial is exactly who he is. And that the folks who served with him in the military loved him. It’s so great to see a genuine human being running for Congress — sure hope he does well. Gutnecht need a good butt kicking. *g*
Let’s try this again.
Hey, Christy! Thanks for falling on your sword about the giving the wrong CD info for Tim Walz. My fault! I gave it to you wrong. Tim Walz is in Minnesota’s FIRST Congressional District. Running against Gil “Georgie’s Boy” Gutknecht, a fiercely Republican Republican. You go, Tim!!
And while I appreciate the tactical fine points, I have to say that if the Democrats actually vote FOR torture (as opposed to going down on a party-line vote) then I WILL sit on my hands, because whether it was Rove’s idea or not, the party will have lost me.
Flame away.
OT: Just thought I’d bring this back bill which passed 414-0 in the house.
US doubles reward for capture of bin Laden
(Agencies)
Updated: 2004-03-19 11:13
The U.S. House of Representatives, amid an intensifying hunt for leaders of the al-Qaeda terrorist network, voted unanimously Thursday to double the reward for Osama bin Laden’s capture to $50 million.
Actually, what has gone on the past week makes me even more determined to get people like Lamont into office.
Why in the world should we be surprised that Rove, who said the Republicans would run on Terrorism and National Security, orchestrated the whole torture episode – trying to push this bill down Congress’s throat? I still think it backfired on him to some extent – whether they caved or not, McCain, Warner, Schultz and Powell helped to muddy the waters so it’s not the black & white – Dems are wimps, Repubs are strong result that Rove wanted (and I never expected McCain to save the day). I’m not thrilled about Dem leadership, but I also think they are trying to keep several steps ahead of Rove on this. It’s all so predictable.
As John Dean said to katymine – watch out for what BushCo tries to push through in the next week.
I’m sick and tired of this Rove crap before an election – sick of the kind of red meat, stirring up the base BS that goes on every two years, whether it’s gay marriage, abortion, activist judges, torture – whatever.
Anyway, I’m going out canvassing for Lamont this afternoon. Just had two college kids come to my door canvassing for one of the local Dem candidates. I’m energized and will not give in to frustration and discouragement. No surrender!
su voz, mi voz
FYI for anyone who is interested
Bob Fitrakis speaking on the stolen election of 2004
Twisted Martini @
3
Stew their asses indeed – gloves off people – these folks work for US – we the people. Am still coping with the furies of my Senator Boxer’s inexplicable CT primary kiss up to HoJo despite huge state-wide constituent disapproval.
We need not be polite – screw the DNC – I sent a cliche ridden rant in reponse to a recent money request – Lead, Follow or Get the Hell Out of Our Way – and signed it Livid CA democrat.
Geffen and Speilberg are supporting Arnold for re-election – not Phil Angelides – not sure what to make of this but must wonder if Arnold is the lesser of two evils. Hard to tell the players apart. Angelides sucks up mega bucks for the Dems with their annual golf fest behind the gates to Pebble Beach from PBC, ATT and heaven knows who else and what favors.
In Monterey County alone our Board of Supervisors are in the pocket of PBC and gamed the California Coastal Commission (unsuccessfully) on behalf of their client, the Registrar of Voters is under indictment, Superior Court judges sweating bullets and inquiries. Sad to say but we seem to be a poster child for modern Republican corruption on the west coast.
Oh Yeah – way past time to make the waffling dems stew in their own juices. Too many Babs not enough Neds.
One more thing, and then I’ll shut up for today. Promise! I copied this comment from somewhere in FDL yesterday. Don’t remember the source (sorry). It was so far down the comment queue, I’m afraid people may have missed it. So I’m posting it here again:
Why are there no ads nationalizing the election and promoting the Democratic party rather than a particular candidate? We get so caught up in the candidate-by-candidate race that I think we miss a fantastic opportunity to get people feeling favorable towards Democrats and more receptive to Democratic candidates overall.
Picture this: a montage of scenes from the past six years. Terri Schiavo, the WTC on fire, bodies from Katrina, people pleading for help, OBL, belching smokestacks, Bush reading “My Pet Goat,” Colin Powell at the UN, Tom DeLay’s mug shot, $3.50 gas, troops under fire, anti-American protests, a wounded soldier being evacked, Bush falling off a Segway, Dick Cheney snarling, Michael Brown testifying, Ken Lay. And so on.
The screen starts black. We hear the beep of a heart monitor and one image flashes on the screen then slowly fades to black. A second beep and a second image. Behind the beeping is a rising crescendo of screeching violins right out of a horror movie. The images keep coming faster and faster, the beeps getting closer together, until they merge into a solid beep and a rapidly flashing montage of images.
Suddenly, the screen goes black, the violins vanish, and the heart monitor flatlines and fades away. Then the words “HAD ENOUGH?” slam onto the black screen. They fade out, and up comes a red, white, and blue graphic that says “Vote Democratic … for a change.” This message is joined to a voice-over by a mature, recognizable voice – Martin Sheen, perhaps?
This ad should be dirt-cheap to make as commercials go. (You might even be able to get Sheen to donate his time!) It can be used in any district to fire up the base and push leaners in the D direction. It will get free media attention and be repeated again and again on the Internet. It will provide a single message and image for the party that’s tough to contradict or use against a particular candidate. It gives support to downballot races that can’t do their own TV advertising. Best of all, if used now, it starts defining the parties and the race before the GOP has a chance to swing into action.
Why doesn’t the DNC do something like this?
But first things first — we have to get them elected.
Yes, and I really HATE to sound like a broken record BUT we have GOT to do something to secure the vote or I will be sitting here on Nov. 8th writing I TOLD YOU SO.
Let’s put our energies into getting people to vote absentee in states whose voting machines are unreliable. THAT’S where we can really make a difference. THAT’S how we stop torture and illegal wiretaps and rendition and the war and the farkokta NCLB law, and no-bid contracts, etc. We HAVE the votes – the polls prove it. But it’s up to us to make sure every single vote is counted.
Lobster @16 – yes, you can make it illegal again, but only from the date of the legislation forward. So if you commit a war crime today, then it is declared (by your country – nonbinding on any of the rest of the world or in the jurisdiction of the afterlife) to be not a war crime from today through some date in the future – let’s just call that date Judgment Day – and then it is made a crime again (in your country) nothing can be charged except from Judgment Day forward
Christy & Jane, John Dean spoke at a ACLU Townhall here in Phoenix on the topic of NSA spying and the pro-torture bill.
His comments were that if Congress passes the law to change Article III of Geneva Convention, Congress just crowned King George. Very concerned about the sections about immunization and Bush being the sole person to determine what torture is.
He also was delighted to visit FDL, stated he had little contact with the Blogs until his book review day and intended to stay only an hour or so but became so fascinated with the discourse that spent hours responding to the questions and comments.
He autographed my book with “PS. It was a delight to visit FDL!
Dean’s point about the next few weeks it is the “Witching Hour of Congress”, to beware and fight against what radical stuff they are going to pull.
Lobster at 20 — I hear that Feingold has a major speech planned for Monday. Nothing is ever set in stone and, in the meantime, I’m not allowing Karl Rove and his sockpuppet kabuki to manipulate me. Period. I have had it with their machinations and the only way to beat them down is to beat them. Change occurs too slowly for me some weeks, and this is one of those weeks and then some — but I’ll be damned if I’m not going to take the fight to them every freaking step of the way between now and November.
Hey, I thought cartoons were supposed to make you laugh. The Jack Higgins one made me cry a little.
In my small town of 37,000 in the larger LA megapolitan area, walking the precincts makes a huge difference. I guess we’ve forgotten how much the personal touch means. When we say ‘We’re Democrats”, their faces light up and they say “Glad to see ya”. Mostly. Walking precincts with reg information is crucial. Don’t want to knock on any red doors if you can help it…
Also, I’m thinking letters to the editors pointing out the R tactics over the last few elections might be worth a try.
If Democrats don’t regain control of at least one house of Congress this year, representative government is finished on these shores for a long, long time. Anything less gives those ghouls two more years to rig everything, from expensive national passports required for voting, to Diebold (or equivalent) voting machines mandated by law, to arrests and disappearances of political opponents… We will see it all, in living (dying) color.
OK, I’m reading the revised House and Senate Bush torture indemnification bills as put in play yesterday (HR 6054 and S 3929 respectively).
They caved.
____
_____
_____
Looks to me like Bush still gets to decide everything (and to interpret the meaning and applicability of Geneva), no one who got collared can invoke Geneva in any event, and there’s still blanket post facto CYA indemnification.
Legal pros chime in?
_
katymine at 29 — thanks so much for sharing that. :) So glad that Dean enjoyed the interaction here — it was an amazing book discussion, and one that, I hope, will be repeated in style and substance for many Sundays to come.
This is so disturbing it’s beyond belief. Where are the Democrats????? The rest of the world thinks we’re barbarians.
Hey Froomkin’s article in WAPO is partially obscured by an ad. Amateurs? Or censorship? But I digress.
These guys (Bushco) are now officially war criminals in my book. And they have a fully functional 3-network propaganda program. When NBC news disses Chavez, it’s used to shore up support for real Christian patriots. When Katie visits the shoeshopper in her neat little apartment, that humanizes a she-beast. When ABC runs that piece of fascist bull crap, that started the program of blaming Clinton for OBL.
Clinton got all of the buzz from last night’s Countdown.
But the really really important stuff was what Turley was saying about torture.
That is what should be shown all over the internets.
With Congress planning to adjourn by Sept. 30, it is possible that last-minute snags could complicate or even prevent the bill’s passage. But top Democrats in both houses indicated that they will not stand in the bill’s path and risk being blamed for its demise.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01355.html
oops that should have been ‘from real Christian patriots.’
I get all my news from TDS and Colbert and Amy Goodman. The rest is PRopaganda.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 34
Since I had asked if we could review the book, it was a delight to bring it full circle.
Mr Dean said he had seen Jane on KO and thought her interview was great!
Organize, organize, organize.
Your individual efforts are important but they are more effective when they are part of a coordinated plan. Contact your local (city or county) Democratic organization. If you don’t know where to find them, ask your local elections office (election commissioner, board of elections, county clerk in some places).
If you have an active local party organization, they should be involved right now in voter identification (calling or canvassing to identify likely Democratic voters) which will be used on Election Day in the Get Out the Vote effort.
They should also (depending on the deadlines in your area) be involved in voter registration. This needs to be an organized process. You don’t just go and randomly register people to vote, you target the neighborhoods or groups that are most likely to vote for your candidates.
There is a science to this. If your local party organization doesn’t know how to do this, check with your state party organization or labor unions to see what they are doing.
Or check with the Congressional candidate’s campaign in your district.
A link was published here recently for Do More than Vote, an organization that makes it easy for you to plug into local efforts in about 30 cities in the U.S. The chances are there is an organized campaign effort in your area. Find out who they are and ask how you can help.
Fundraising is also important. You can organize coffees, bake sales, garage sales or other fundraising activities for your party organization or candidate. Coordinate with them.
You can also contribute to progressive Congressional candidates through ActBlue. See the Blue America link at the top of this page.
Many of you already know all this and are doing these things. Please continue. Those who aren’t, now is the time.
That’s my two cents’ worth.
Just read the NYT editorial re: torture bill provides retroactive cover for rape and sexual abuse. I still have a glimmer of hope that these people will be prosecuted under 1996 War Crimes Act.
Mary @
28
Thank you, Mary. How about this; certain acts will NOT be made (retroactively) legal, unless the president declares them to be so, in published form. Moreoever, “the president” gets to decide what is (and was?) legal under this proposed law. Could a new president change the interpretation of the law, for an action that was illegal when committed, and then (with some unclear level of specificity, at least to me) sort of declared legal?
What I mean is, and I think I see the answer coming…would this bill be IT as far as all the currently illegal things that have already been done in my name, with my tax dollars?
OT – MSNBC is replaying Clinton/Olbermann, now!
Just a snippet, nevermind ; )
What really annoys me is the commentaors saying the Democrats lost their moral authority to say anything now because they didn’t say anything when the GOP was hashing out this deal. Excuse me, but when do you lose the moral authority to spek about against torture?
Oh yeah, when it YOU who does the torturing.
If anything, the Democrats should get up and say, “you know, we really hoped these guys would come to a deal that continued to observe the laws and standards of decency this country has always held itself to, seeing as how their the majority in Congress. But now it seems it’s up to the Democrats to make sure that American moral values prevail because it’s clear you just can’t trust them to the GOP.”
Barbara M., you are brilliant! How can I help? I like the bumper sticker idea too, but how about (existing) billboards instead?
Christy I love your posts and think you hung the moon but I disagree on the premise.
The torture legislation isn’t kabuki to depress the base – although I’m sure they are thrilled to see that the Democrats thoroughly contemptible reaction has handed over to them that nice dividend.
Every aspect of this had opportunity after opportunity for the Dems to revitalize their base and to also reach out to Americans who are repelled at torture of innocent people and state sponsored torture of even the guilty, and who would be equally appalled at the guilty, like al-Libi, being tortured to give the info that Cheney wanted to use to bolster his war appeal.
This isn’t Rove at his Machiavellian best – it is Democrats at their incompetent, immoral worst. Rove isn’t why I am walking away from them, their inabiity to stand up and even make a pretense of doing the right thing is why I am walking. The Canadian Arar announcement (imo intentionally) were dropped right in their laps as an opportunity to say: Apparently Bush doesn’t just want to torture terrorists with ticking time bombs, he wants to kidnap and torture Candians with a tick, or Germans who went out and got bombed (el-Masri) and maybe we should find out how many innocent people the incompetent administration has tortured or kidnapped before we make a descision.
The Harper’s interview – another gift. How easy is it to say that if one of the TOP CIA analysts in this area says that it was unquestioned even by command that a third of the GITMO kidnap and abuse victims had no business being there, maybe we need to rethink and investigate how people are ending up in that black hole and how the innocent are going to be leaving it before giving Bush carte blanche to stick them there for life.
I think its buckpassing to put this one off on Republicans. Democrats are responsible for what they do and do not do. When Reid told Jane that actions have consequences, he was damn right.
I can’t wrap my mind around how anyone wakes up and goes to work for Gonzales – no matter how they pat themselve on the back for the fact that they are doing “only good stuff” and I can’t wrap my mind around how anyone in the military can stomach working for the Decider of war crimes and child abuse and I can’t vote or work for anyone in or running for public office who is so bereft of conscience and center that they won’t stand up and speak out.
There are a few who are running and a few in office, but I’m not buying a special spot on the beach in hell by working for people who won’t stand up over torturing innocent people.
IMO – the trackback date is part of how they are buying off some Dems. That is when Clinton authorized renditions, isn’t it? Rendition – like w/Yousef, where you have the harbor county’s permission to operate on your soil and the person you capture you bring back to be charged in the context of a real court system – is very very different than what has been happening.
If what has been happening now happened under Clinton as well and was just better covered up, his butt should fry too. If the concern is that the the ‘legal kidnapping’ rationale doesn’t hold for rendition – whatever. But why is there a 1997 trackback with the “war” dates to the AUMFs?
Anyway, I know it’s a lot more inspiring to go to work for a change, but I don’t see a change on what is important to me and even if I did, every fiber of my being says you don’t work for or support people who refuse to object to torture. Period.
Rove didn’t steal the Democratic party’s soul; they sold it.
Ever been hustled by a pool shark? I was once. dude seemed to be always just only ONE ball better than me. But he cleaned me out by night’s end (playing straight pool, buck a ball cumulatively, playing to 500, back about 40 years ago).
Call me too cynical, but I am afraid that the fix is in. Rove has no intention of losing control of Congress. They only gotta win by one vote here & there, make it look hard-fought and random, keep us thinking we have a chance by going through all the nuanced motions.
I hope I’m wrong.
_
Compromise?! The fix was in from the start. Pure politics. Trouble is, a lot of folks will think otherwise. Rove and Cheney always deal from the bottom of the deck. It’s the nature of the beasts.
I have what I think is a pretty good post on my board;
I simply don’t know how to prioritize this relative to a possible attack on Iran. Anyone care to share their thinking?
Here’s how I’ve put it to my (admittedly blue-state) reps: this legislation sends a message to the world, that when the going gets tough, you know what? We’re really not that committed to our principles.
katymine @
29
Between Greenwald and Dean I’m about to recognize reality. There’s not much evidence to support the idea that the Reichstag is going to stop this. It is August of 1939.
Georgie and Pervez do the Cha Cha Cha. I’d say someone got threatened again.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/paki…..36,00.html
CHS-RH @
30
I just want to see some fight. Karl Rove can’t control what the Democrats do with their own hands and feet. If they are not willing to fight on the most important issues that come before them, I get VERY frustrated. Frustrated with the Democrats, not with the Republicans.
I think the happiest thing I’ve seen in the last few days was when Clinton, on KO, consistently used the “progressive” label. This is very welcome. I went from being a significant, dedicated organizer for the party in 1992 to laying off in 1996, because Clinton had tacked so far to the right that I didn’t see the point in supporting him.
Sure, I want to vote against the Republicans. But the reason the pendulum takes time to swing is that it seems to take a long time for the party/idea that is out of power/fashion to recover its identity after a big loss. As long as the D’s are acting like R wanna-be’s, I find it hard to engage fully on their behalf.
Having said all that, this blog — FDL — has done more to reenergize me than anything else in the last year or two. I will trust and follow. The D’s in Congress will, by their actions, determine just how much energy I can muster for November.
The idea that not taking over at least one house of Congress will mean two more years of unchecked power in the executive branch just makes my blood run cold. And I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out a consolidated message that would get through to even the most close-minded and imagination-deficient voter, while also trying to figure out how to get that message to the maximum number of people at just the right time.
The White House has managed to base the detainee treatment issue on the false premise that all of the people we are holding are stone-cold terrorists. We know this is not true, and there are stories out there from some of those who have managed to get released.
The issue, as I see it, is not that we don’t want to bring terrorists to justice, but that we want to do it in a manner that is as much as possible consistent with the principles we live under. And we hold these principles sacred for a reason – the reason being that we fear that once we cross the line that separates us from “them,” we risk someday not only being “them,” but having our own government consider us as being subject to the same treatment in our own country.
This is a multi-front problem. On the one front, we have really bad legislation on the table in Congress and we need the Democrats, and as many Republicans as possible, to kill it.
At the same time, there are hundreds of campaigns going on to win seats in the House and Senate.
Best case scenario is that we can kill this awful legislation AND take control of COngress.
The “half a loaf is better than none” scenario is that the legislation goes through, but a new Democratic Congress fixes it, with enough votes to override a veto.
We know what the worst case scenario is.
We have to go for broke here.
I really think that we have to get people to understand that this is not just about terrorism – not by a long shot. This is about America. About who we are. About what we want to be. About how important our freedoms are to us, and what we are willing to risk to keep them. It’s about whether we really want to be a force for democracy in our actions – with other countries seeing that the standards we set for our own citizens we carry out into our dealings with the rest of the world.
This is where the two things dovetail, I guess – that those running for office should be out asking people to make choices on the basis of some very basic truths, and remind them that to take these things for granted means that it makes it easier for them to be taken away.
(Got interrupted by a long phone call, so I hope this all makes sense)
Lobster @43, yes the intent and effect is for it to be “it” but for someone coming up with a series of legal arugments that might interfere. However, the bill also strips jurisdiction from the courts to hear any of thos nifty legal arguments.
It is absolutely about “amnesty” but really, it is about authorizing the Executive Branch to be criminals whenever, wherever and to whatever extent they choose and with no recourse for anyone, including American citizens. And the contamination of the civilian courts is marching in lockstep.
Support now for introducing tortured statements as evidence in Padilla and Salah, support now for bringing criminal charges against reporters as whistleblowers.
The idiots who criticized Judge Diggs bc she rested her case on the big, overarching Consitutional claims instead of the narrower more “dead to rights” FISA etc. claims should be a little hat in hand right now, bc she’s proven how much more she had her finger on the pulse than they did. She can call a corpse a corpse while they are still discussing the rosey glow in its cheeks.
Me to Me – great post
I think these points should be particularly emphasized:
if you don’t want the benefits for you veterans taken away to fund tax giveaways to the wealthy
if you want your veterans taken care of when they come home
if you want draft dodgers to STOP overuling advice from the heads of our armed forces
if you don’t want draft dodgers initiating aggresions they are told will harm our country
if you DON’T want decisions that HARM our soldiers, FEED insurgency and CREATE terrorism
Remember when the prospect of hiding behind leagalese and slyly worded obfuscations prompted outrage from Republicans.
Now the US is plodding down a path that Joe Stalin would have been proud to travel.
This nation is toast, done, finito…..
-GSD
Duck!!! Yes, avoid the torture issue. Keep your eye on the ball. This Rovian tactic is designed to activate the Neo-Con base; to throw meat to their base constituents. Let them feed on it like the animals they are. We must simply walk around them, indignant and horrified as we are, and continue towards our GOAL…..Get Democrats; progressives; and liberals elected NOW.
Stephennnn @ 58
you are so right.
Notice that line in the WAPO article I linked to above: “But top Democrats in both houses indicated that they will not stand in the bill’s path and risk being blamed for its demise.” That line is meant to show that Dems are nothing but a bunch spineless ferrets. We cannot eat our own and fall into the trap. We cannot afford to lose the election. Stuff like this allows them to steal elections.
I am of the opinion that this bill is only meant to save Bush’s butt. If he cared about what Americans need to feel secure, he would stand up for the Constitution of the United States and stand by the Geneva Conventions. If I was a democrat I would add a rider on the bill that would allow very large settlements of: tortured Americans, foreign nationals, all members of the coalition, beheaded contractors, murdered journalists very large settlements to their families. I would also add on a raise in salaries for American soldiers and an increase in their death benefit. I would ask for the National guard to be returned to the states immediately. I would tack in a rider for the opening of new VA Hospitals and a demand for an exit strategy. Also, when did Saddam start torturing his people? Does it apply to him also? An added demand as to the number of wounded soldiers worldwide and an actual number of the number of fatalaties. In other words, I would add whatever I had to at the bottom of the bill that would cause Republicans to think twice.
But the last thing I would do right now is to knock Democrat members facing an election. I think that is Rover’s plan. The MSM will start saying how mad dem voters are and play it up big time. I don’t want to fall into the media spintrap of knocking our side. Bush & Co. will have a lot more to answer for IF, and only if, we regain some seats. You get more with honey.
I cannot find links to the statements from the Democratic Congressional leadership that say they will not contest the compromise bill.
Can anyone help? I’m still searching…
Feingold could seal the deal in 2008 right now for a lot of us. Stop this bill, Russ!
BTW, heads up for everyone — we have a fantastic Blue America guest today — Tony Trupiano from the MI-11. Hope everyone can stick around — he’ll be here to chat at 2:00 pm ET/11:00 am PT.
I do have to say that the lack of spine shown by the Democrats is demoralizing, but it’s not going to make me give up.
It does make me wonder, what will the Dems *really* do with subpoena power, if they get it? Keep it ready to use, keep their subpoena powder dry for a couple of years? What will they do when BushCo refuses to comply? Because if you think that Bush will respond to a Democratic subpoena on a national security issue, you may want to remember how he responded to federal laws banning torture, and illegaly spying on Americans. Not so much.
Anyway… as Anne #54 says, “The idea that not taking over at least one house of Congress will mean two more years of unchecked power in the executive branch just makes my blood run cold.”
Let’s take it back. Spinal surgery on the Democratic party will not be quick — looks like it’ll have to be done via high-risk surgery (the Dem primaries), one ‘vertebrae’ at a time.
This is a trap.
All the Democrats need to say is “I agree with Colin Powell on this issue.”
Wait and get a majority in the House or Senate (or both, please God), then address all this shit — from a position of power — where you can do something about it.
Don’t walk into Karl’s trap.
If what has been happening now happened under Clinton as well and was just better covered up, his butt should fry too. If the concern is that the the ‘legal kidnapping’ rationale doesn’t hold for rendition – whatever. But why is there a 1997 trackback with the “war” dates to the AUMFs?
Mary??? I’ve never read anything that suggests Clintion authorized renditions to a third party country, ever. What did I miss ; )
lina @ 64
I agree 100%.
We have known Rove was going to pull this kind of thing – he told us he would. We need to be giving the Dems support right now. Then we can sort things out on November 8th.
Mary @ 47
You said it better than I could have. Thank you.
Then, there is this:
So they came for the terrorists, but how many of them really were terrorists? Then they came for the whistleblowers. Then they loosed the Swiftboaters and they were afraid.
Who will stand up and speak out?
ccmask you are absolutely right. IMO, they should try everything to tie this bill into knots.But then the debate is on Karl’s terms. Do you think filibuster is a good idea if they can manage to have a single focus? And the national democratic message idea suggested at 26 above is a good one too.
This is not a trap. This is all about covering asses. For me, this is the issue that could make me a Democrat for years to come — or not.
I certainly understand that we all have different threshold issues, and I won’t stop fighting against Republicans. But the Democrats can’t get me without standing up on the issues that I care about. Win or lose.
One thing I don’t know is do these changes apply just to the USA or internationally?
When I read the polls, I get good feelings about a Dem take-over of the house. But…then I think about the (Mat Lauer?) interview, when Bush says I guarantee that we won’t loose in November. That statement made my blood run cold because it was said with the conviction of a person who already knew the result and not the ranting of a psychopath. I am going to continue to send money to about a dozen races, however, I think the fix is in.
Anne at 54,
The “half a loaf is better than none” scenario is that the legislation goes through, but a new Democratic Congress fixes it, with enough votes to override a veto.
I think your “half a loaf” is the only scenario that has a chance of working in this case. The odds against principled action are so high right now that we could never win that fight anyway, so why undertake it right now? If we lose, then we could begin obstructive tactics after the election.
So I say, ignore the red cape they are waving at us, and try to win the upcoming election. Because if we don’t win at least one house of Congress, democracy in the U.S. becomes a distant memory, overnight.
All that butt kissing McCain did on Bush’s behind over the last year, is beginning to pay off for Johnnie Mac. McCain is being anointed, blessed if you will, for the Republican nomination for president in 2008.
i’m with what RevDeb and Professor Foland have written here… and i’ll even take it a bit further.
Professor Foland @ 51
RevDeb @
9
it’s not too late – there are enough D senators to filibuster – and they only need to do it for ONE WEEK… next friday congress ajourns until after the november elections.
next week will show what choice our senators have made. i’ve already made mine. torture, habeas corpus, an another unprovoked war – these are the lines i will not cross.
Steve @ 70
See my #47. Yep.
.
Lobster @ 13
From your fingers to my mind. High res images available when I have time to get them on the server. e-mail is on the page.
OT, kinda sorta, but not really…
Gary Hart suggests what the October surprise might be, in detail.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..30086.html
So just in case you need some more foot-to-rear motivation, this just might do the trick….
I don’t think this is so much a “trap”. This is a device to prove to the public that the Democrats are spineless. And it worked. It worked because Democrats *didn’t* stand up and fight.
Do you think not opposing this bill means that Republicans will embrace Democrats as tough? No way.
“Don’t fight our torture bill or we’ll call you soft on terror!”
“Ok.”
“Thanks…. Democrats are soft on terror!”
Our current crop of “Leaders” needs to be replaced. Before they come to waterboard us out here on the internets. When will our “leaders” realize that they’ll be called “soft” no matter what they do?!? The way to show you’re tough is not to capitulate. You prove you are tough be fighting back.
If the DC Dems would pay attention to us out here, we could fight back on this issue and win.
I was pleased to see the PFAW folks taking an active interest here in my little town in linking netroots to local races (they sponsored Kos’ recent visit). If we can get more parts of Texas to lean blue, there’s hope for everywhere!
o @ 14
Thanks for saying that, o. I’ve been crafting letters to the editor in my head, and trying to think of ways to appeal to my neighbors who consider themselves conservative. You remind me that many progressives need the wake up call just as much.
As for Peter Welch, I don’t know that I’d call him lackluster. I haven’t followed his career in the VT State Senate – probably because, as you seem to imply, he doesn’t have one of those glossy, good for a soundbite, grab your attention personas that keep him in the public eye. (As opposed to say, Bernie, who brings to mind words like firebrand, iconoclast, etc).
And yet Welch’s credentials look pretty solidly Progressive, to my eye. He supports and has worked for affordable health care and prescription drugs, affordable housing, a balanced budget, protection of the environment, taking action in the face of global warming.
He was always against the Iraq War, and supports withdrawal of the troops – in 2006. He is endorsed by Leahy(that’s good enough for me, right there) Bernie Sanders, Dean and called a strong progressive by Feingold.
Oh, and he is considered the Anti-Bush candidate. I don’t get the idea that he plans to do much rubber stamping.
And he needs help. You’re right, this is going to be a tough race. Sounds like your doing some good work, o.
anything that takes the focus off Iraq 50 days before the election is good for the Repubs.
>it’s not too late – there are enough D senators >to filibuster
Grow up.
Pushing this issue is stupid, the idea that the public is clamoring for us to bring Congress to a halt over KSM is just insane.
Sorry he’s been tortured. Even sorrier that the guy from Canada who was completely innocent was tortured. But life is unfair. Want to change it, win the fragin’ Congress back.
Yes, Jane time to whip some Republican ass.
About time someone stood up and said so.
Tell Karl Rove to piss up a rope.
helina handbasket @ 77
Let us entertain the notion that Gary Hart is right. Say, for example, that proof fell into your hands that we were going to attack Iran before the next US election.
What would you do? What would a patriot do?
Steve @ 71
I’d put together your two interpretations and call it the cool conviction of a psychopath (okay, sociopath) who already knows the result.
Christy,
While I agree with your post, there is a more pressing matter. Our Navy has been ordered into position in the Persian Gulf, and from what I understand, nuclear weapons are on board. We are about to launch a nuclear attack against Iran and it will happen before the election.
We are going to use tactical nuclear weapons to penetrate deep into the bedrock to blow up the intricate system of tunnels that the Iranians constructed to decentralize their storage of weapons and fighters. Hezbollah copied the Iranian model and a force of only a few thousand men and boys, just farmers really, disabled and prevented the vaunted Israeli Army and its tanks from advancing into Lebanon thereby providing the “evidence” that Bush needed to “justify” using nuclear bombs against Iran.
We only have a month, at most, to prevent nuclear war.
It’s time to wake up and realize, whether or not one believes in any sort of God, George Bush is utterly insane and totally consumed by his desires to torture, kill, and subjugate every human being in the world. His goal is crystal clear: World Domination.
Why is this not obvious to everyone?
WE ONLY HAVE 30 DAYS, AT MOST, TO STOP THIS MADMAN.
Richard Bottoms @ 81
Grow up? Are you kidding?
Winning control of a Congress that is unwilling to stand up when our nation is under attack is pointless. How exactly do you think things will be different if this bill goes through quietly, without a fight, and then the D’s win the House? Have you noticed that the party has blown zillions of opportunities to show that they are not complicit? What are you asking me to vote for?
Here is a report on on Human Rights Practices for 1997—Iraq. I believe Bush’s bill in the time frame begins in 1997 All of those mentioned below are discussed on the webpage. Just reading this page reveals how close we are to Iraqi democracy. Coming soon to a town near you?
President Saddam Hussein, who is also Prime Minister, Chairman of the RCC, and Secretary General of the Regional Command of the ABSP, wields decisive power. Saddam Hussein and his regime continued to refer to an October 1995, nondemocratic “referendum” on his presidency in which he received 99.96 percent of the vote. This “referendum” included neither secret ballots nor opposing candidates, and many credible reports indicated that voters feared possible reprisal for a negative vote.
RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
Section 1 Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom From:
a. Political and Other Extrajudicial Killing
b. Disappearance
LindyH – I saw a great bumper sticker on my friends car – it’s the one-way sign, pointing left, and it says “Turn Left at the Next Election”
I don’t know how McCain sleeps at might. He just sold his soul. When you have him coming out from the tete a tete with the other hens and heading straight for the microphones, you can see the brown on his nose. Pure stench. That’s their way of sealing the deal, convincing every American that it’s done. Did the Dems take the opportunity to have a press statement? I must have missed it.
I think each Democratic politician has a personal moral choice to make: connive with torturers to get and keep power, or refuse. Collaborate, or resist. And I think each Democratic activist has exactly the same moral choice to make.
I do not think it is an easy choice. I understand all the arguments for pragmatism. Elect collaborators now and we can shave their heads later. Someday. When the Democrats have a big enough majority to grow spines. I understand those arguments and I respect the good people who feel that way.
I just can’t do it, though. I will work for, and contribute money to, any candidate who opposes this dreadful, horrible, very bad bill, and the rest can go Cheney themselves. At some point, it seems to me, you have to decide whether you are Antigone or Creon — even as you recognize that both of them had legitimate points of view. Even as you remember that Antigone did not win — but then, neither did Creon.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 62
You can count on me, CHS.
Mary Teresa *s*
I don’t know where my sanity would be without you and others here at the lake in these dark days.
Torture or Elections, why must we make a choice when both are so important, well, we attack both. Torture is down to the wire this week and must be confronted now. I said in Mary’s wonderful post @ kos yesterday. Feel free to recommend.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/22/162417/304
This is a bit more important than Disney! Attack! We can and must do both. Just my opinion.
Christy,
While I agree with your post, there is a more pressing matter. Our Navy has been ordered into position in the Persian Gulf, and from what I understand, nuclear weapons are on board. We are about to launch a nuclear attack against Iran and it will happen before the election.
We are going to use tactical nuclear weapons to penetrate deep into the bedrock to blow up the intricate system of tunnels that the Iranians constructed to decentralize their storage of weapons and fighters. Hezbollah copied the Iranian model and a force of only a few thousand men and boys, just farmers really, disabled and prevented the vaunted Israeli Army and its tanks from advancing into Lebanon thereby providing the “evidence” that Bush needed to “justify” using nuclear bombs against Iran.
We only have a month, at most, to prevent nuclear war.
It’s time to wake up and realize, whether or not one believes in any sort of God, George Bush is utterly insane and totally consumed by his desires to torture, kill, and subjugate every human being in the world. His goal is crystal clear: World Domination.
Why is this not obvious to everyone?
THE NUKES WILL FLY ON OCTOBER 24TH. WE ONLY HAVE 31 DAYS TO STOP THIS MADMAN.
Driftglass is a good read today.
Mason @ 85
It is obvious to me, and now should be obvious to everyone reading this.
what a great post- thanks christy. honest to God i could not sleep last nite worrying about this- our great country’s soul in the shitter thanks to Bushco- God the dems better show a little spirit here- but i fear that they are afraid to lest the rethugs label them soft on terror.
lina @
64
I don’t think this is a trap – it’s Karl trying to save Dubya’s tail and keep the career folks at the CIA from rebelling against illegal orders from on high.
But saying “I agree with Colin Powell on this issue” is a good start. It needs to be followed with “So does the former director of the CIA, Admiral Stansfield Turner. So do a number of the former chairs of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So does the former head of Army Intelligence. So does . . .” Get the list together, and hammer it home.
We didn’t send folks to die in Iraq in order to crown a new King George.
The most extraordinary thing about the Democrats’ silence on the torture issue is that they can’t manage to find their backbones at a time when the poll numbers for Bush are at a miserable 37%. What is it going to take for them to realize that silence isn’t a winning strategy?
I hope the Democrats do well in the coming midterm elections; but that won’t diminish my resolve to help with a housecleaning of our own party.
the link for the comments that the dems will not block this are here:
“…But top Democrats in both houses indicated that they will not stand in the bill’s path and risk being blamed for its demise.
“I will need to look at the final bill carefully, but elements of the compromise I have seen are promising,” said Ike Skelton (Mo.), the Armed Services Committee’s ranking Democrat.
Republicans, meanwhile, signaled plans to trumpet their newfound unity and attack Democrats even if only a handful oppose the bill. The office of House Majority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) released a statement saying that “while Democrats talk out of both sides of their mouth, Republicans are working together . . . to provide predictability and clear guidance to both our military and civilian personnel so they may continue to keep Americans safe.”
Until the breakthrough was announced Thursday, Democrats had let Republicans fight among themselves as they backed McCain and Sens. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and John W. Warner (R-Va.) in their struggle with the White House. Now that McCain and his fellow dissidents have joined hands with Bush, it will be difficult to attack the deal, Democrats acknowledged.
That is not sitting well with liberal activists, whose energy will be important to Democrats on Election Day. Caroline Fredrickson, director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s Washington legislative office, called the legislation a “get out of jail free” card for the administration’s “top torture officials.” She said it would render the Geneva Conventions’ protections “irrelevant and unenforceable.”
Democratic political strategists at Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research encouraged Democrats to challenge Republicans on national security issues. Jeremy Rosner, senior vice president, said polling suggests that Bush’s focus on security matters in the past weeks may have helped his personal approval ratings, but it has harmed Republican lawmakers by elevating anxieties over Iraq.
“There is much more room than people have guessed for Democrats to engage on this issue, to get heard and even to win,” he stressed.
A few liberal Democratic lawmakers attacked the bill yesterday, but none signaled all-out plans to try to kill it. “By using legal mumbo jumbo to obscure the fact that the CIA will continue to be allowed to use torture and will actually be insulated from legal liability for previous acts of torture, President Bush is proceeding ever further down the slippery slope that Colin Powell warned us will endanger American troops in the field by encouraging other countries to reinterpret the Geneva Conventions,” said Rep. Edward J. Markey (D-Mass.).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01355.html
carolyn urban at 80:
welch actually does have great credentials – thats one of the vexing things about his campaign. however it does seem that they are sharpening the message daily.
I’ll try again.
According to non-US intelligence services, Iran is many years from being able to produce an atomic weapon. The miniscule amounts of uranium that they enriched earlier this year are a joke — totally non-threatening. We can talk technical if you want; the SWU capacity of Iran is very likely to be tiny.
What Iran wants is regional influence.
Now, if you were the leader of Iran, and you liked what you saw in Lebanon, and you had some empty caves that the Americans wanted to bomb, perhaps with nuclear weapons, what would you do? Would you flinch? Or wouldn’t you quietly move what is really valuable to you out of harm’s way, and poke W in the eye?
What would you do, to achieve your ends?
I believe we have many reasons to fear what the puny W has in his puny mind.
————————————-
I would like to act. But I don’t know what to do. Register more Democrats? Okay, I can do that. There are reasonable scenarios for which that is a winning strategy.
Now, who has the position and the will to guard against further W-instigated mayhem? Is there any evidence that they will stand up? No?
Should I therefore not consider doing something more than just registering new Democratic voters?
Before you whack me over the head, I have registered upwards of 10,000 voters. I’m no couch potato. What I’m looking for is a reason to believe in the Democratic Party of the United States of America.
Someone in the leadership needs to put up a fight. Now.
global yokel @ 98
Why is it that Dems are more afraid of the snakes in Congress than they are of us?
How has Karl managed to win every election since 2000? By turning out the base.
This issue is tailor made for the base. The base loves the idea of their big tough Texas cowboy president pulling out the fingernails of those rag head a-rabs who are trying to take over the west.
Gets them right to the polls on election day.
That’s why McCain, Warner and Graham folded.
End of story.
helina handbasket @ 77
wow. thanks for the link.
one more reason to push back. what message do you think it would send to the bush administration if their torture bill was blocked next week?
might it not give them pause? to find out that there was an opposition party?
If Osama died at the end of August, how do you explain this tape released after his death?
On September 7th, 2006 another tape was released to al-Jazeera TV. [11] This video was released four days prior to the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. It was also suggested by Michael P. Jackson, Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security, that this video could have possibly been a signal to Al-Qaeda supporters in the United States to initiate a terrorist attack on the fifth anniversary of 9/11. However no such attacks came to pass.
Remember after we Impeach first, Chney then Bush we can always re-write the damn law! If we win,that is.
Mary – thank you for your comment (as always!) and for tying the retroactive date to the Clinton renditions. The official line has been that yep, there were a few but they were only the “bad guys” which has always made me sick.
And the dating does a lot to explain the lack of outrage.
This is precisely the problem with giving up morality – once you start with a little slip, you quickly slide all the way – and cannot speak up to stop it.
Lobster @ 83
Talk about it in public. A lot. Hart’s piece is a good start. Who knows if we can stop this in the long run (because Cheney et al. are insanely committed to it), but we can undercut it as an “October surprise.” It’s not a surprise if everyone is expecting it.
The thing to make clear is that it’s the ultimate “wag the dog”; there is no urgent reason to confront Iran militarily, and the only reason to do so is to influence the election. No nuclear or arms-control expert (except the fake ones at conservative think tanks) believes Iran is closer than years away from nuclear weapons.
Pre-empt the conversation they’re trying to create about “everyone must support Dear Leader during a war” to “if you keep voting for them when they start wars, we’ll keep having more wars.”
lina @ 103
no
by owning the election officials, by e voting machines, by no polls in democrat district
not anything else
Siun @ 106
now, that makes sense! i think the “can’t fight ‘cuz it will hurt our prospects in november” line is bs.
Eureka Springs: OT but I was driving up your way last week and saw a large fundie church complex being built outside of town. I also didn’t see a local economic base to support that church. Our tax dollars at work? I have been driving around the USA for a year or so and the massive expansion of the fundie infrastructure is in all regions. I can see where the unaudited faith-based program money is going.
dunno if this was posted yet. here’s the spin:
Fox on The Defensive, Promos Interview As ‘Clinton Gets Crazed’
Lobster and helina–
Exactly my point about relative priorities. There’s a lot of patriots’ work out there to be done.
On Iran, the proof has fallen into our hands. The most plausible idea I’ve had is to try to organize a (hand-written) letter campaign to the generals in the Pentagon reminding them that they swore to uphold the Constitution, which requires Congressional approval before this sort of adventure. Aiming for that 1% chance they’d disobey orders on those grounds.
Thoughts? We only have a couple of weeks.
new thread
How about we head upstairs and help Tony Trupiano into the House this November?
This story contains the standard narrative that whatever happens it is good for the Republicans.
If the Democrats don’t do anything now that those maverick stand tall Republicans have caved in and slunk off (Arlen Specter, no doubt, having given lessons on how it’s done), then Bush gets everything he wants. He has to abide by the Common Article 3 but he gets to say what it means. Prisoners remain without habeas which means that Bush can continue to hold them as long as he wants without charge. He can torture them and they will have no recourse. He can try them and even if they are acquitted he can still hold them because they will continue to have no right to challenge their detention without habeas. And if there are a few minor points in this so “compromised” bill that Bush doesn’t like, remember he has only to wave his wand and attach a signing statement to it.
OTOH, the narrative goes if the Democrats oppose Bush on torture and kangaroo courts, then they will appear weak on national security because only weasely Republican Senators and criminally minded Presidents are allowed to appear to strong on this issue.
Of course, there is a third narrative that is getting lost in all this and it is this: that after 6 years of Republican leadership, our country is less safe. The Republicans don’t have a record of strength. They have a record of failure. This should be the Democrats message here and elsewhere. I don’t expect the Democrats to stand up but when the other side has nothing but failures to point to, it’s not like they didn’t have the chance.
I was just thinking–Is Bush trying to get his bill passed before confirming Osama’s death?
And if he is dead, who are we torturing?
We are not allowed to know who we are torturing. Everything is a secret. But we do get to pay for it and we do get to suffer the consequences of fomenting more terrorists.
Steve @ 111
Well we try to hide the fundies but since we dont torture or deny civil liberties they get the Great Passion Play and a few other perks. We have so many wonderful counterbalances in this town. But don’t tell to many people. shhh
I haven’t noticed the new mega church you mentioned but it doesn’t surprise me. Are you an AR res. / native? Or just a Little Feat fester..*g*
neurophius @
41
Neurophius, I was thinking of writing along these lines, when I got to your post, which is worth more than two cents. Absolutely dead on, and I couldn’t have said it better, so I won’t try. Thank you.
We have been canvassing in my county, but it’s the same people it always is–the supervisors, treasurer, state reps, and those of us who help them but do not outnumber them. For all the outrage out there, people are still waiting for someone else to do it, at least where I am.
And our congressional candidate was most recently the object of some “oh dear, he’s doomed and we can’t do anything” posts over at MYDD. This is fertilizer, to put it politely, especially given the unpopularity of the incumbent. People who don’t contribute because they think Spencer might lose create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course he’ll lose, if the gooper spends hundreds of thousands of dollars raised from pharmaceutical and oil companies on attack ads and he doesn’t have money to answer them. This isn’t rocket science.
I’m frustrated, too, Christy, and I feel as though you are exactly right to put the campaign on the front burner. Sure, it’s an outrage a day in this country, and that’s on good days. But it doesn’t do a damn bit of good for me to write to Tom Latham (R, IA-4) about the torture bill or anything else. The only thing that will help is to get him and a bunch of others OUT OF THERE. And to do that, we need to write checks and knock on doors.
Mary @ 47
You are so right. This is sad, but it’s true.
Redshift 108
Yes! Excellent. We have injected “rubberstamp” and “had enough” into the mainstream of political discourse. “Wag the Dog” should be next. Talk about it, letters to the editor, to TV hosts, get candidates talking about it. I have been trying to think how our candidate should be framing this new war bearing down on us. Good one.
Steve @
71
if Bush got you to think the fix is in, Karl did his job (whether or not the fix is in).
That’s gonna be our biggest fight yet…
No matter what we do, or what they do, there is that persistent large group of the willfully ignorant who are pleased as a pebble to be so. This happy neiborhood of Christian camps and torture enthusiasts still stands around 40 percent in love with the sulfur king and it seems nothing will change that. There’s plenty more that may not be as sulfur scented but will never stray from their stubborn ignorance. It took 40 years for this coup and it’s managed in only six years to dig in deep and secure great wealth and power. Then what is there to be done with Schumer and Clinton, do they represent the most progressive thought in this country. Where is the outrage among common Americans, where is the recognition among Republicans, where would the sulfur king be without them. If half this country felt disgust as we do our efforts wouldn’t be necessary. Thailand should return the favor and host a conference while we clean house as I’m beginning to think our military may be as fed up as well.
Other than Ramsey Youseff, the only other “rendition” that I’m aware of on Clinton’s watch (and I’m reluctant on conflate the word rendition to what Bush has authorized) was Mir Aimal Kansi. He was “snatched” by an FBI team out of Pakistan back to the U.S.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/…..9/023.html
Niether was “rendered” to a third party country or tortured that I’m aware of.
Mary @47. So sad, so true. I only vote for candidates who represent me anymore. Voting is a sacred trust and I cannot vote tactically
Redshift and Susan in Iowa, I wish it were possible for me to think that we the people still could change things through appealing to our Representatives and Senators.
Prof F. That’s a good idea. They’re the only ones who can refuse. I’ve given up on the branches of govt. It has to be from inside the branch that has to carry out the orders. I have much more hope that they would (not that they will) refuse orders than that they would stage a coup.
But it’s the Air Force after all that would be in action. It hasn’t had much opportunity in the past few years to burn through its budget. And if reports are true, the AF is riddled with fundies seeking the rapture.
The walls are starting to shake. To read Gary Hart postulating that Bush will wag the Iranian dog before the elections is chilling to the bone.
-GSD
I’m with you, Christy.
This is not the end of the story, it’s the middle.
mary at 37
so well said – I heartily agree. Faux progressive incumbents like Barack Obama who countenance torture by their silence are an obstacle to change, and it’s unlikely in the extreme that they can change their spots while in office.
Hopefully there are many among the new crop of insurgent Dems who can retain some principles in D.C. but that is quite uncertain…
dire times like this in history require long memories and politicians should not be able to be considered progressive, indeed humane, if they do not do something NOW – upcoming election notwithstanding.
Whether bin Laden is alive or not, makes no difference. That conflict is going to intensify regardless. America started this fight, and there’s no way we can finish it. We picked a fight we did not KNOW we could win. This is not Grenada. And George Bush is not Ronald Reagan.
Oklahoma: It only makes a difference if Bush is trying to pass the torture bill knowing Osama is already dead.
The Decider has presided over the 2,700th death of US troops in Iraq….and untold countless tens of thousands of Iraqis….
-GSD
Thanks for pointer, Siun.
It seems under Bush and Cheney, torture has become as American as apple pie. And the Middle East (in particular) and the rest of the world knows it. And to think that in 2008, our choice for president, may be between two supporters (one a Republican and the other a Democrat) both of which support the Bush Middle East slaughter. One horrific Hobson’s choice. I’d have to say.
Well. Late to the thread and a dreary day up here in NE and my heart is heavy. I have to say that I agree with Mary @ 47.
It’s not weak to stand up for the rule of law and what America is supposed to be. I am not going to even delve into all the issues. This is stark and it is right now and the lawlessness and the compromises must stop. That is strength. I feel it and am tearful about it. America is losing the last of her soul. None of the wrongs perpetrated by our government and our elected officials can be righted if we and the minority party don’t say ENOUGH! No more. Never again. How is that being weak on terrorism?
How is that being weak in terms of national defense? How is that weak in terms of fighting the bogeyman? Keith Olbermann can do it, why not a Senator? Stand up for us and America and earn the respect of millions. Not everybody watches KO, but the MSM will have to report the rebellion and guess what, most Americans will breathe a sigh of relief and will see another way forward.
Karl Rove is a liar and we are afraid of him? Phase 2 reveals that we were lied to and where’s the outrage? Valerie Wilson was outed by our government and there is a big, collective yawn among the MSM. They have trashed our laws, our reputation, and our security.
Tell the truth and stand up. Filibuster and more– do whatever it takes and I will have their backs and will work tirelessly for them (as I have done!). Earn it.
Angie, where you?
New Hampshire, Old Sow. It’s chilly, drizzly and dark.
fahrender@124 maybe Rove did, however, if Dems don’t take the house,what is next for us? We will have to take to the streets but I don’t see any social momentum to do so. I ultimately think it will take a Kent State and a Bloody Sunday in Selma to wake up the American people but the critical mass of people is not yet available.
angie @ 139
Angie, in this thread, we are talking to Tony Trupiano, a candidate for the House in Michigan. Might cheer you up!
angie,
i’m with you and mary @ 47.
dreary day at my house too (in MA)… but my heart is darker yet… i try to hope that monday will bring a united and fighting group of senators to filibuster…. but it’s hard to hope – i haven’t forgotten that there was a (bare) majority of Ds in the senate when they voted for the iraq war and the patriot act…
Steve @ 139
yeah, i’m thinking that it may be time to focus more effort on social movement politics instead of electoral politics.
ccmask @ 133
I think I’m getting your drift. But not sure. Would you care to elaborate? If what you’re saying is what I think you’re saying; I like it.
1) I told you so.
2) While the conduct of Dem leaders in the Geneva Conventions debacle has been pathetic, it would be a huge mistake to pretend that this election doesn’t matter, that Dems are just as bad as Republicans, or that things are so screwed up that nothing matters anymore.
For starters: Republicans want to stay in Iraq, bomb Iran, suppress the basic oversight function required to be played by Congress in the American system of government, transform America into a police state (and yes, it could get much, much worse than it is now), cement America’s post-9/11 adversarial relationship to most of the world, weaken the UN, dismantle social security, further stack the federal judiciary (not just the Supreme Court) with lunatics, further erode the separation of Church and State, amend the Constitution to entrench discrimination against homosexual Americans and roll back already insufficient environmental protections just as it becomes clear that the global warming crisis is far more severe than most of us had realized. It’s so painful to watch Dem leaders blow it precisely because the stakes are so high.
In 2000, lots of people supported Nader on the theory that there was no meaningful difference between Gore and Bush. That’s looking like a pretty dumb call right now, isn’t it? Wouldn’t punishing the Dems for their incompetence by staying home on election day be even dumber, now that everybody has the benefit of hindsight?
Chilly drizzly and dark here too. Fire in the stove. Candidates for state offices speechifying at Maine People’s alliance at our community radio station right now.
Tony sounds awesome (next thread). Some of our local folk running for state offices sound sensible and progressive. (Of course that may be our radio station and MPA.) We have a great candidate opposing Olympia at the national level, but unfortunately she has not enough name recognition.
These are ponderous times. Who would you encourage to participate in a filibuster? Who might?
Didn’t Musharraf say, several months ago, that he thought Bin Laden was dead?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.co…..wsid=52565
Look, Cheney and Bush both declared on teevee that the Republicans would not lose this election. They’ve known OBL has been dead a while – The Path to 9/11, the torture bill, I’m sure much more to come, has been laid out with that fact at the center.
This is all fun and games to Rove – it’s a chess game. And are the Dems going to fall into his well laid trap? Checkmate.
Old Sow, I think it falls naturally to Leahy, Feingold, Levin, Rockefeller, Reed, Kennedy, Byrd, Durbin (and more) People who are on the armed services, judiciary, and intelligence committees.
I can’t imagine Hill or DiFi doing it, but a gal can always dream.
“Newsweek has a story in its latest issue about Rahm Emanuel. Emanuel is the model of a Congressional Democrat who wants to win more than he wants to do the right thing, and who therefore can’t do either.” From RJ Eskow.
With ‘loyal opposition leaders’ like Emanuel and Hillary, the Republicans may not have all that much to worry about.
Oklahoma: It only makes a difference if Bush is trying to pass the torture bill knowing Osama is already dead.
What I mean is that Bush claims we need torture to help with the War on Terror. The War on Terror began with hunting down and finding Osama. If Osama had been found prior to the 5th Anniversity of 9/11, and prior to “The Path to 9/11″ ABC movie, he will not be able to say “Well, we wanted to be certain before we reported his death”.
Osama has to stay alive for Bush prior to going into Iran…I know the story may not be true, but if in fact he did die in Pakistan, it could explain why Musharref came for a visit. In an article Bush was quoted the other day when asked if he wanted to go into Pakistan to look for Osama, he said “We would have to get Musharref’s permission first”. Maybe the French found out about it….
And a girl can write emails or make phonecalls on Monday……3 cheers for copy & paste!!
If we work on the most likely and succeed, perhaps the less likely will hop on board when it looks like we’re getting somewhere.
I am party affiliated with the Greens, because I see a huge need to break open this two party system, but as a progressive, I have to work with who’s in power now. Thanks for your list.
Cozumel @ 65
Nothing that I know of – I’m just saying that he did authorize a form of rendition and I don’t have any problem with what I know of that he authorized – like the Youssef snatch, done with host country permission and resulting in a full and fair trial. I wouldn’t have a problem with Bush doing this either. I’m just saything that if Clinton did anything worse – it’s his problem. I’m not for covering anyone’s butt on this. At one point, I was a little more of the mindset that we needed an accountablity approach that provides some kinds of protection for people who were trying to do the right thing, but I’m at “to hell with that” by now – no one is “trying to do the right thing” if they aren’t standing up and screaming on this one.
This fight has to happen at all levels, because the torture issue is of a piece with the rest of the Republican overreaching. It’s the bleeding edge, literally, and we must do everything to undermine them on every front.
Here in Texas, we’re working to make sure that there is no safe ground for Republicans to run to or stage from.
Next Saturday, in Arlington, the Texas populist candidates will be at the Take The Truth To The Streets festival, raising cash and kicking ass. (The link is to a copy of the flyer-there’s no website proper AFAICT).
This is a battleground year and the battle is not on one front, but all fronts.
Amen, Mary.
More than 50,000 protesters tell Blair it’s Time to Go
by Anindya Bhattacharyya
Between 50,000 and 60,000 protesters converged on Manchester city centre today for the Stop the War Coalition’s “Time To Go” demonstration on the eve of the Labour Party’s annual conference.
Marchers from Penzance to Aberdeen were united in their demands to get British troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan – and for Tony Blair to get out of 10 Downing Street.
There was a strong regional turnout for Stop the War’s first national demonstration outside of London, with large contingents from across the north west of England, Yorkshire and the Midlands. Some 1,000 protesters travelled down from Scotland in a fleet of coaches.
Many of the protesters were young people like Louise Marsland and Hannah Clarke, who came down from Preston with a group of students.
“I’m really impressed with the size of the demo,” Louise told Socialist Worker. “I don’t know who will follow Blair, and I don’t know how they will clean up the mess Blair has made. But this has gone too far and it has to stop now.”
Hannah said, “I came to the demo because I’ve been reading the papers all week and it made me really angry. My brothers have been in Iraq and Afghanistan. Blair is George Bush’s lapdog – he should go now.”
http://www.socialistworker.co……le_id=9775
ccmask @ 150
Sounds plausible.
Here’s something we should NEVER forget about Clinton.
Where was Nader in 2004? Looks like the donks managed to lose that one without any third party whipping boy to blame.
Did Nader make Gore lose his own state? come on.
Do think Lieberman helped out the ticket? come on.
If the Dems do not get punished for their incompetence, and can simply count on everyone to the left of Dukakis or Mondale or whatever centrist non-entity holding their nose aand automatically voting for them, where is the incentive to get better?
Sorry, but my support for the charade is permanently withdrawn- if even ostensible progressives like Obama cannot rouse themselves in defense of the Geneva conventions then they are not a very convinging alternative, sorry buddy I know the Cheney regime has worse in store but at least those wolves show their teeth.
David Ehrenstein @ 157
I voted for Bill Clinton twice. But there were certain of his positions I did not approve. Now I am worried about Senator Clinton’s views on the Iraq War and the Palestinian ‘question’. The Senator seems determined that the Bush Middle East policies are correct.
Blair should have gone long ago. He’s no more a Laborite than are many of todays Democrats, real or traditional Democrats. For that matter, George Bush is not a Conservative either.
Late to the thread, but I have been out walking precincts here in CA-11 and just got home. Thanks Christy for reminding everyone to DO SOMETHING. You and Jane and Howie and all the people who volunteered for Lamont have truly inspired me. I have been walking precincts for McNerney (one of the Blue America candidates) every Saturday since the beginning of August. I can tell you we are making a difference. Today we had an overwhelmingly positive response from the people we talked to and name recognition was amazing. The first week I walked precincts, almost no one knew who McNerney was. I am getting excited and extremely hopeful that things may just be changing. But most of all, I feel like I am contributing and making a difference.
The next big thing here is a visit from the Preznit on October 3rd to campaign for Pombo (one of the most corrupt members of congress) and there are protests planned. So anyone who is in Northern California on October 3rd and wants to protest . . . join the crowd! Yep, do more than vote. It feels really good.
Politicians will always disappoint us. We’re always in the position of holding out hope that they won’t, but they do.
Read the fine print and vote when and where it matters, but there will be no real change without revolution.
Who knew doing the right thing would be so hard?
So we are supposed to reward the enablers of torture? No. Can’t go there.