
I know Christy has already weighed in on this today, and so have Glenn Greenwald and Digby, but this is abjectly disgusting:
"A handful of principled Republican Senators have forced the White House to back down from the worst elements of its extreme proposal for new interrogation rules,” said Jim Manley, a spokesman for Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader. . . .
And Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, praised Senators Warner, McCain and Graham as “standing up to the administration” and producing a bill that, “while it has a number of problems, is a substantial improvement over the language proposed by the administration.”
We are now officially the country of torture. The image above of the hooded prisoner is the one that gets used the most not because it is iconic (although it is), but because the others are so horrific people instinctively turn away and don't want to face the conversation any more. The fact that Levin and Reid would applaud this as "standing up to the administration" is absolutely appalling. Totally aside from the moral bankruptcy and the political naivite they showed in getting punk'd by GOP kabuki, it is anything but an efficacious November strategy. As Glenn Greenwald says:
The only real advantage Democrats have during this election season is that Congressional Republicans are perceived to be rubber-stamping loyalists to George Bush who fail to impose any limits or checks on his behavior. But Sen. Reid and Sen. Levin are here to tell us that this isn't true, that Republican Senators are actually brave, principled and courageous and boldly stand up to the President in order to protect all of us not only from the Terrorists but also from the occasional excesses of the President.
I don't know what happened to the country I grew up to believe in, but I don't recognize it in this matter any more.
Neither, it appears, does Digby:
People and societies don't just wake up one morning to find they no longer recognize themselves. It's a process. And we are in the process in this country of "defining deviancy down" in ways I never thought possible. We are legitimizing torture and indefinite detention --- saying that we will only do this to the people who really deserve it. One cannot help but wonder what "really deserves it" will mean in the years to come as we fight our endless war against terror.
But Reid and Levin aren't the only ones who have dropped the ball here. As Froomkin says:
[A]s the White House gears up to use detainee policy as a political issue, it is incumbent on the press to remind the public that there are not only two choices: Doing it Bush's way and letting terrorists go free. Even if the Democrats aren't coherent about other alternatives, the press should be.
I'm hearing frustration from a lot of quarters that people feel this subject is not a "winner" for November and therefore should be abandoned. So I feel the need to ask the question -- is this important to you? Is this something you feel like your leaders are morally obligated to take a stand on whether it's a "winner" or not, and do you think that journalists (hint: Spotlight) should be pushing harder on? I honestly want to know.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Thank you Jane and so am I (disgusted). You ask:
Yes, yes and yes!
I am disgusted…. especially so since McCain is my senator (DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM) and he is willing to give a Green light for others to do what the they did to him in Vietnam.
My Question…..
WHAT can we do?
Can we do anything?
Ready to dust off my eFax account and hit the send button!
Jane, this is so utterly beyond anything I ever thought would be a subject of discussion in America. It is important. “Important” isn’t a strong enough word! How is it possible people aren’t in the streets over this? How is it possible Reid and Levin could say what they did?
How is it possible the heads talking on the TV can go on with pleasantries and silly accusations over who is a real hero/terrorist/statesman/journalist — whatever — when America now officially tortures!
Even Bill Clinton smacking down Chris Wallace — even that is a bright and shiny distraction.
America has become the thing we called our enemies evil for: we torture.
We. Torture.
We do.
I have been trying to compose a comment for about 10 minutes now.
Anyone else have this happen? If something is unspeakable, what the hell can you say?
Echoing Angie, Yes, Yes, and Yes! I am as disgusted by the so-called compromise as I am by the original proposal. The more I read, the more upsetting it all is. I am also just plain sickened by the political theatre in Congress. The continual talk of the October surprise is nauseating. As is the “fix-is-in” talk. This whole election process marching into November is hellish. I honest to God don’t know what to believe anymore.
Ditto.
I’m so tired of being nauseated. Pass the compazine.
Worry about whether an issue is a “winner” is exactly why the Democrats keep running into trouble. It is also why they have not regained my respect. How scummy do you have to be to legitimize depravity? Their silence is always taken for assent.
This is THE issue for me. We had a discussion two threads down on this.
If the Democrats don’t stand up and fight this — hard — then I can’t help them. There is NO LEGITIMATE REASON that this has to be done now. NONE. If we can’t stall it for a week, then there is no point in having a Democratic party.
I say this as an activist that has registered thousands of voters, phone banked, knocked on doors, walked precincts, everything. This is IT.
I’m completely disgusted by this, mostly because somebody needs to slap down the “we torture or they go free” meme. God, what bs! The obvious alternative is to follow the freaking law! The one we have NOW!
The repubs must not be allowed to dilute the constitution.
Jane, Oh dear God YES!! This dwarfs Mickey Mouse and ABC and look how we fought that fiasco.
Who are we America? Are misguided Cashmere Christian Fundamentalists going to lead us all down a path back to the middle ages this week?
Will all of our children find themselves in Public Sembler schools for misguided souls by 2010?
Attack!
Margot @ 4
Yes, Margot. And when I finally put something together, it was so inadequate!
me too - I’m disgusted… (we are all going to need heavy doses of sedatives to keep our blood pressure down).
I’ve already written DiFi and I will call on Monday… any word from Boxer? Feingold?
Where all the generals who spoke up? peep outta them?
I am reposting my thoughts here from 2 threads back because…
“I don’t know what happened to the country I grew up to believe in, but I don’t recognize it in this matter any more.”
Neither do I.
We are not being led. We are being pushed.
I still don’t think things have gotten bad enough yet to get americans off the couch and protesting in massive numbers. I don’t know how much worse it has to get, I shudder to think what it will take. Maybe another 2 years of a republican controlled congress.
as troubling as the NSA warrentless wiretapping is, this is so far much WORSE!!!
if I had to pick between the 2 to filibuster, it would be to filibuster the torture…
you’re right jane, this doesn’t seem like the country we grew up in
I can’t think of a greater roots effort then the one that this situation presents
I think we have to do whatever it takes to get a filibuster and prevent our country from saying torture is fine.
this is so important, I don’t want to wait
now what we’ve been telling everyone was apparent is offficially documented by the presidents own agenencies
what have we done to ourselves?
the new york times is telling us in tomorrows paper what the national intelligence assessment reports
anyway, we have some great amo, from raw stort telling us about a new york times article
RAW STORY
Published: Saturday September 23, 2006
Print This Email This
Spy agencies say that the Iraq war has worsened the threat of terrorism, according to a front page article in Sunday’s New York Times.
“A stark assessment of terrorism trends by U.S. intelligence agencies has found that the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks,” reports Mark Mazzetti.
“The classified National Intelligence Estimate attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee, according to several officials in Washington who were involved in preparing the assessment or have read the final document,” the article continues.
Excerpts from Times article:
#
The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by U.S. intelligence agencies since the Iraq war began, and it represents a consensus view of the 16 disparate spy services inside government. Titled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States,” it asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread across the globe.
An opening section of the report, “Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement,” cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology. The report “says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse,” said one U.S. intelligence official.
….
For more than two years, there has been tension between the Bush administration and U.S. spy agencies over the violence in Iraq and the prospects for a stable democracy in the country. Some intelligence officials have said that the White House has consistently presented a more optimistic picture of the situation in Iraq than has been justified by intelligence reports from the field.
The broad judgments of the new intelligence estimate are consistent with assessments of global terrorist threats by U.S. allies and independent terrorism experts
that’s official, that’s the report from THIS presidents agencies and THAT is what he has done
this is not NEARLY as bad as the following BRUTAL fact;
the president was advised that the action he would take in Iraq would do exactly this
I’m 53 years old, a 4 year survivor of lung cancer. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t. I still have faith in God though and that keeps me getting up every day. I’ve lost almost everything material since my bout with lung cancer, except my FAITH. Please pray for our country so everyone is allowed to worship in the manner they see fit. I choose to follow Jesus, may you choose to follow someone who expresses love for each other, just as I understand Muhammed, peace be with him, also did. Don’t give up, believe, please?
In Jesus’ own words,
Peace!
LindaR @ 11
Honestly I could use a very succinct post that points out what Bobby G, Mary and others did this morning. Because I am finding it very difficult to sound civil when writing letters.
I want to spotlight the universe about this!
I for one will be up in a tree the evening before the election, watching my polling station with a video camera.
TURLEY: It is a violation of both domestic and international law. But more importantly, torture is immoral under every major religion
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14921882/
So would the evangelical Christian right support this? I’m thinking not.
The day of the “compromise” I attended an ACLU Townhall with John Dean and the Director of the DC ACLU discussing the NSA spying and of course this legislation.
Mr Dean said you were great on KO… he saw the interview…
They both were very concerned about this and feel that the next week will be the “Witching Hour in Congress”.
This very bill is the heart of who we are as Americans.
When America fails to be good then America fails to be great.
This is it…. the very event…. that will be the point that our children and grandchildren will know that America is no longer great or good.
I dislike saying this intensely about my party, but it is many Democrats who are letting the Bush administration get away with what they are doing.
I posted earlier today on this, and went and emailed all of my congresscritters.
_____
OK, I’m reading the revised House and Senate Bush torture indemnification bills as put in play yesterday (HR 6054 and S 3929 respectively).
They caved.
____
_____
Looks to me like Bush still gets to decide everything (and to interpret the meaning and applicability of Geneva), no one who got collared can invoke Geneva in any event, and there’s still blanket post facto CYA indemnification. Sux.
_
Good on Froomkin for pointing out that the political press isn’t like the sports page: Right and wrong are not the Yankees and the BoSox. The press actually can speak up for what is right, what is true, and what is Constitutional.
As I foraged for some solace this week, this seems representative of what the “general consensus” is and it makes me sick– we have to act, now.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00847.html
I’m rarely caught speechless, but this is one of those times. My only response to these congresscritters leaves me sounding like a motorboat: “But, but but, but… HOW COULD YOU???” This is so completely and utterly incomprehensible and unconscionable that I just can’t wrap my brain around how anyone who presumes to call himself or herself an American could POSSIBLY condone it. But, but, but, but, but…. (motorboat stalls out here).
From two threads back, a on-topic bumper sticker idea:
Torture a Republican
Vote for a Democrat!
Margot @
4
Yes, ma’am. LindaR said it best:
They will not get away with defining me like this. This goes against everything I believe. NO!
The most progressive of Democrats in Congress are railing against Chavez’s passionate, and for the most part IMO, accurate portrayal of Bush, then praising Republicans for allowing torture to become a legal American institution.
It’s gonna be difficult to rationalize voting Democratic in the upcoming election with voices like these actively supporting a criminal White House.
Something is fundamentally wrong with our non-representative form of government. What exactly happened?
Jane,
Yes, this is very important to me and the subject needs to stay “out there.”
Othe other hand, I do understand how the Republicans boxed the Democrats in on this one. Perhaps it’s up to Democrats not running for re-election to stand up loudly and often for the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions on this issue.
The Big Dawg slapped Chris Wallace around a little, why can’t he become the moral leader of the party. You know, it’s really not hard to say torture is wrong. And, by the way, where’s Jimmy Carter these days?
The mainstream press has a lot to be ashamed of, what with cheerleading this country into Bush’s war. It needs to stand up, also-I think we can count on Froomkin and Olbermann, at the very least.
So are Harry and Carl just waiting for the subject to turn back to Iraq? Iraq is a winner for Democrats, terror isn’t. Dems (let themselves) get backed into the corner every time on this issue.
I feel physically sick when I think about this and even sicker when I realize that the Democrats have let it slip. And done nothing.
What a frickin’ triangulation this “compromise” is, it’s so debased and so slimy. It’s all about November and the few being able to say, “see - we haven’t rubber stamped everything - we stood up to the president on torture.”
The fuck you did. I am sick and so sad for all of us, especially the poor innocents. God help us.
I despair.
Could someone who has it at hand please post a link to ALL Senators’ various addresses?
Thanks.
I am sickened and repulsed. These guys need to get deprogrammed right now. Do they comment without reading? Who is on their analytical staff? Is anybody doing any research? Or do they know what they’re talking about and believe in it?
We have become our enemy at the hand of George W. Bush. A horrible day in our country’s history. I feel shame.
Christy says Russ has something big scheduled for Monday.
I have pinned my hopes on him. If the D’s fold on the torture issue, the R’s will be further emboldened and we will be at war with Iran in October. Needless to say, bumper stickers won’t matter at that point.
PeeJ @ 18
Amen.
A little tangentially –
Lindsay has a post up about the fact that Mel Sembler, the Republican that threw a fundraiser for Leiberman this week, is not only the chair of Scooter Libby’s defense fund but made an awful lot of money with a series of “drug treatment centers” that psychologcally tortured kids.
I think the spotlight link is great, but what about adding the email addresses of Senators and Congress members?
It would make it so much easier to write them, en-mass, about our concerns.
Or, is it already on there and I’m too stupid to figure it out??? (paranoia is a terrible thing!!!) :)
LindaR @ 11,
————-
I just wonder sometimes if this is what it was like in post-WW2 Germany. What will we, ourselves, we Democrats, be blamed for? Will generations in the future say, “Why didn’t you STOP them? Why didn’t you take to the streets, do whatever it took!”
And that’s where I am stuck now. What is enough, what is too much?
ccmask @ 20
I have been thinking about this since I will be on another limb with you. I think I may folow my ballot box from the court house to the church (poll) and back again. It’s not going to be out of my sight for a minute.
John Dean said that if this bill passes with what he knows is in it…. it will be the coronation of King George.
The whole thing with the AWOL Democrats reminds me of alcoholics that have to hit bottom before they seek recovery. Well, bottom could be the total destruction of what we are as a country.
When did we become an uncivilized nation? I’m embarrassed to be an American.
And another thing. If this monstrous legislation is passed and it effectively nullifies the War Crimes Act and the courts take it up in the future, guess what? Anyone of these slack jawed and spineless syncophants is equally guilty and liable, imho.
It could happen. America can right itself. It’s happened before. I say no immunity for cowardice.
1,268 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher:
Up until this moment I have been of the same mind as Christy on this issue…that is to say, let’s keep our eyes on the prize in November and hope that the legislation will not pass the smell test in the federal courts. But I have now reached the point where I think that the outcome in November will be rendered meaningless unless we force our Democratic leadership to the wall on this and make this the defining issue of the election.
I have come to this conclusion after thinkin’ about Chuck the Bookkeeper Schumer’s remark about John Bolton bein’ “OK” now because he’s been “pretty good for Israel”. If we don’t force the Democrats to define themselves on this issue and allow the American people to express their disgust over the deconstruction of the constitution and the rule of law in November, I am convinced that it won’t matter whether the Dems win the congress or not. I am beginnin’ to think I understand what it was like for liberals, Social Democrats and leftists in Wiemar Germany in 1933. We hafta scare the Democratic leadership into doin’ the right thing NOW or we’ll never get control of ‘em later.
This is the defining moment in our history, Jane, and if we don’t take a stand here there will not be anything left worth winning in November.
Please Firepups, help me outta the incredible wave of depression and feelin’ of doom that has come over me today…I think we’ve been righteously and truly fucked and nobody has even unzipped their pants.
KEEP THE FAITH AND I’LL SEE YOU IN THE CAMP!!!
I agree one million per cent, Jane.
What happened to us (the U.S.)? The whole thing is a lie; we were always taught that we were the good guys; the guys in the white hats; the country that stood up for the little guy.
Who are we?
May God have mercy on us
On Countdown, Clinton spoke against torture. He, Carter, Colin Powell, as many military leaders as possible, need to say that passing this bill will make us less safe, not more, and that it must be stopped, or considered at least more deliberately.
The time is very short. We did not stop ABC from airing The Path to 9/11, and we are not powerful enough to stop this bill.
We need real firepower for this one. Can we get it? Jane? Did Clinton hand out his card?
You are all disgusted, for sure. You don’t understand what is happening to your country. Perhaps it is because that you all have your head stuck in the sand.
Your country is running the foreign policy of Israel! When you are ready to face that reality (which obviously none of you are at the moment), then things may perhaps change.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n18/judt01_.html
http://www.aschkar.org/article51.html
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=560
Good luck to you … and us all in the World!
… and this eye-opener:
http://ender.indymedia.org/?q=node/595
Chomsky! Who would have thought?
One quick action, Go over to kos and recommend Marys post.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/22/162417/304
There are two diaries over at Kos that are pushing an “poison pill” idea for countering the GOP rubberstamped say-yes-to-torture bill. They’re worth reading (link to second at foot of first.)
I too have been taken pretty much breathless by this development. I don’t have a clue what to do. I can’t stop thinking about it. I can’t understand how it just sails through and America as a country and a culture doesn’t come to a complete stop at the idea that we would condone torture. I padded out to get my morning LA Times and I can’t believe that the whole first page isn’t devoted to this story, to the horror and dishonor and shame. I ran over six miles this morning powered on anger to the point I had to do some “running meditation” in order to return home calm enough to be a decent husband and father. This is overwhelming!
So, they submit HR 6054 and S 3929 all of NINE days before end of session.
Rovian political blackmail, pure and simple. Pass what we want pronto or else we’ll hammer you with “weak on terror” ad nauseum right up to election day.
Anyone taking bets? Bush will get his retroactive CYA clause and the right to interprete Geneva and the right to define “torture.” Doesn’t matter that it remains unconstitutional (only the Supreme Court gets to ultimately interpret our obligations under treaties — look it up in the Constitution), he’s playing for time, continuing control of Congress (which Rove will deliver by any means necessary), and the ultimate 5th vote he needs on the Supreme Court down the road should he get to make another appointment.
King George.
_
Eureka Springs, AR @ 40
Lucky you to have a ballot box to follow. I get the feeling that following my Diebold machine wouldn’t do much good…
I genuinely believe that unless Diebold and other unverifiable voting is stopped everything else is moot. Won’t matter. The results will be programmed months in advance, and all the rest is a stylized Kabuki for the entertainment of the people who still believe that their vote counts for something. Color me depressed, cynical, and wearing my tinfoil hat.
Christy, Jane-
I’m disgusted, too. The best course of action might be for all of us to write Russ Feingold and encourage him to stand up all alone and filibuster the GOP torture bill, if for no other reason than to embarrass the shit out of his cowardly Democratic colleagues.
==================================================
|
|
V
My line in the sand..
Is Mary here?
I would dearly love to see her # 47 from 2 threads back posted here.
Marion in Savannah @ 51
And if it happens, Americans won’t rise up the way they did in Mexico. We’ve become a bunch of freaking sheep. (Present company *extremely* excluded, BTW!)
It’s difficult to take a positive view of American future near and far as many of us convey today. At which point do we no longer fight on fascists turf, the media, money and power and it seems almost the entire government in some degree are further and further out of reach to common Americans. Why isn’t their a greater repulsion to torture and abuse in our names since the second the first leak of abu ghraib was known. Why are we unable to except what the rest of the world already thinks of us, that somehow we are different. The truth is we pay for this Government, for the wars, prisons, torture and therefore share the responsibility. What ever we do to slow the growth of fascism in the U.S. is not enough.
The thing that outrages is not the Bush criminality, and immorality. I expect as much. That’s what Republicans do. What really angers is that some Democratic movers and shakers are going along with the Bush program. The Iraq War and the halt to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process being the most glaring and impacting examples. Not to mention tax cuts for the very wealthy at the expense of the middle class, working poor, and the destitute.
Jane, two observations, a question for you, and a suggestion.
Observation #1: Lots of people saw this coming a mile away. For the record, I told you so.
Observation #2: Sorry, but the conduct of Dem leaders throughout this mess has made “taking a stand” impossible for them at this point. What’s “Heckuva Job” Harry Reid supposed to say now? “Hey, I take back all the stuff I said three days ago about this all being nothing more than a “catfight” among Republicans, just a process story about intra-Republican squabbling. What I really meant to say was this is the most important issue of our time, even though I had nothing to say about it all last week and have been praising its proponents for the past several days?” Or how about Carl Levin? What form is this “stand” of his supposed to take at this point? Wouldn’t he first have to explain what he’s been doing down on his knees? I mean this seriously: having *completely* screwed this up, what is it you think these guys are supposed to do now?
Non-rhetorical question: why weren’t you pushing for Dem leaders to take a stand on this last week? Wasn’t that the time to demand that Dem leaders snap out of their stupor?
Suggestion: While the conduct of Dem leaders in the Geneva Conventions debacle has been pathetic, we need to resist the temptation to become despondent about it. It would be a *huge* mistake to convince ourselves that Dems are just as bad as Republicans or that this fiasco is so bad that the Dems don’t deserve to win anymore. This is an incredibly important election, and we can’t get overwhelmed by our disgust.
For starters: Republicans want to stay in Iraq, bomb Iran, suppress the basic oversight function required to be served by Congress in the American system of government, transform America into a police state (and yes, it could get much, much worse than it is now), cement America’s post-9/11 adversarial relationship to most of the world, weaken the UN, dismantle social security, further stack the federal judiciary (not just the Supreme Court) with lunatics, further erode the separation of Church and State, amend the Constitution to entrench discrimination against homosexual Americans and roll back already insufficient environmental protections just as it becomes clear that the global warming crisis is far more severe than most of us had realized. It’s so painful to watch Dem leaders blow it precisely because the stakes are so high.
I’m with Christy in saying that we need to move on (my words) and keep our eye on the ball.
Norske, even if you think WE are doomed, we must act to make things better for our children and grandchildren.
They will be the bewildered survivors of post-war
GermanyAmerica.We need to slow this descent into madness, teach as many people as possible about the truth of the situation, and be a witness to the world that we are trying to save our nation.
Our Congressional representatives are about to pass a bill legitimizing torture and immunizing those who commit the crime.
And the media wonders why bloggers are a bit shrill and angry these days?
This is too important. I’m glad it’s getting discussed in the blogs. We need to hold Congress accountable on holding Bush and his torture-a-thon accountable.
This deserves a response as large and vocal as the one against the ABC-GOP-TV 9/11 propaganda piece.
I’ll be calling my senators on Monday.
Margot @ 39
Well, can anything be too much when we’re trying to stop torture? As for what is enough, nothing is not enough. After that, I have to believe it is all good.
Like contributing $5 to a candidate when that’s all you have to give. Giving that five dollars is the difference between being a good citizen or being a jerk, basically.
There are hundreds of millions of citizens. Hundreds of millions of five dollarses can influence the political tides.
There are hundreds of millions of citizens. If we each voice our outrage in some way, the voice has to be heard. One letter, no. Thousands, tens of thousands of letters, yes.
So what is enough? I think anything is enough. Only nothing is not enough.
Use spotlight.
Write a letter.
Make a call to a representative.
Call a local TV station and ask when they are going to show their outrage against torture.
Slap on a bumper sticker.
Wear a button against torture when you do your grocery shopping.
What else?
http://www.senate.gov/
guess we have to call / email each one.
The future of our country is worth it.
And if we do attack Iran anytime soon, does anyone doubt that any new authority to round up and detain people — even citizens — either for judgment by King W or for indefinite detention will go unused, when there are thousands of Iranians living in America?
How far will it go, and what is the individual’s obligation to stop it?
Can we stop this train? I am losing my confidence.
http://www.house.gov/
Is this info on spotlight already?
“I don’t know what happened to the country I grew up to belive in, but I don’t recognize it in this matter any more.”
that bad news is that the America you knew is dead - it died the moment the SCOTUS instilled the bushliar-criminal regime. People need to adjust their thinking, their assumptions as to what the USA has become, not what it was.
the good news is that America is not a country, its an idea, and ideas can not be killed. Perhaps not here again, but somewhere, sometime, perhaps already existing, a majority of people in a society will agree that all people are equal, that they should live freely under the law, and that the government exists only serve the governed.
.
Lobster @ 64
Assume for the sake of argument/discussion here, that it’s true as being proffered — Bush will bomb Iran next month. What will be the upshot politically here? Will the bulk of the ‘murkin sheeple simply fall in line, “rally behind the CIC”?
_
Oklahoma kiddo at 57 — yes!
Toll Free number to congress - call 866.808.0065
Just ask for your senator or congressperson
Lobster @ 64
Last time I checked Southern California has the highest population of Iranians in the world outside of Iran. A few who are dear friends of mine.
Has any heard how far along KBR is on concentration camp construction? I assume the camps will be ready to deal with backlash from the October surprise and the November election results. Does anyone know?
I had read an excerp of the Kennedy article where the employer said that late at night, the Diebold workers went into the polling place to mess with the machines. And I just thought, well, damn, how hard is that to climb a tree…..Bush ain’t the only monkey.
Not a “winner”? Holy fuck. Yes, I am disgusted. Such utter moral cowardice is appalling. This goes to the heart of what this country is about, or at least what it has always aspired to be about, however imperfect the achievement of that aspiration. If we (Dems, press, public, anybody with a still-functioning conscience) do not stand up on this, we can wave good-bye to our country as it swirls down the drain.
Eric @ 58
If the Democrats are not willing to fight these things today, what do you believe an election can accomplish?
Last time I looked, we are staying in Iraq, a carrier group is on the way to Iran, the Congress is about to approve the pivotal legislation that will make the elements of a police state legal and routine rather than illegal and in the shadows, Schumer thinks Bolton is okay, whatever he might want to do to the UN, etc. — and I don’t see Democrats fighting back. In the absence of a serious pushback against this “compromise” bill, perhaps from leaders other than Reid and Levin, there is a very serious doubt in my mind that the Democrats have what it takes to stop the nightmare. If the torture bill doesn’t at least garner a party-line vote (which would at least lay the groundwork for the future, including the November election), then what’s the fucking point?
1,268 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Eric and egregious:
You are both right and that’s why I think that gettin’ down on this issue, even if it means losin’ in November, is our only opportunity to save our souls and our asses before the judgement of history and the rest of the world when we are put in the dock at the new Nuremberg trials that are sure to come. We must save our children and grandchildren by bein’ willing to show them the line of the truth that’s runnin’ thru our history this moment. The only way that the outcome in November will have any meaning is if we force everyone into combat on this right now!
KEEP THE FAITH, TOMMOROW IS GONE IF WE LOSE TODAY!
Have I had enough? Don’t stick a fork in me yet!
Steve @ 71
That’s pretty tinfoil hat. Or, am I unaware of some factual stuff of timely relevance?
_
The news largely seems to be treating this just as it did allegations of vote suppression and voting place irregularities in Ohio in 2004. No one really wants to dig into the details of this so-called “compromise” which institutionalizes and legalizes a laundry list of criminal behavior. Robert Parry is saying this proposed law resembles the amnesty laws written for dictatorships in Argentina and Chile.
Everybody thought the revelations about lying us into Iraq was a tipping point. No way. This is the tipping point. It defines what the government can do legally, in secret. Now does the President not only get to define what torture is and is not, but he can have anyone he wishes detained without habeas corpus. And if anyone thinks this is just about foreigners, think again. If he can take their Constitutional rights (and the Constitution says all people, without distinction), it means he’s going to be enabled, by this legislation, to take ours, too.
That’s not what the beltway boys are saying now.
Yes, it’s important, and I’m disgusted too.
The thing that upsets me the most is how almost all of our processes seem to have completely broken down. Opposing torture should literally be a no-brainer, but somehow almost nobody except the tireless liberal blogs seems able to raise a voice above a whisper, much less do anything about it.
The press should be pounding this story. It’s at least as important as a bogus break in a ten year stale murder investigation. Groups of physicians and psychologists should be decrying the programs (starting with SERE), and stating unambiguously that ethical professionals cannot take part, or stand by. Groups for remembering the Holocaust and other such atrocities should be saying “not here.” Student groups should be organizing anti-recruitment efforts, saying that they will not serve in a military that engages in these practices.
And, I know this is way too much to ask, but it would be kinda nice to have an opposition party in this country.
We are fucked. I can’t think of any other sensible interpretation of this bill.
The old argument of the ticking nuclear bomb justifying any means possible to get the info a la 24, or Dirty Harry looking for a buried girl.
. . . Breaking and entering is a crime. The possibility that a stranger, observing through the kitchen window a baby drowning in the kitchen sink, might be deterred from saving the baby does not lead us to legalize burglary.
From an excellent post at Mercury Rising.
pluege @ 66
I refuse to allow this country, my country, America, to die. Not now or ever. My country is not an idea. It is the Constitution, the people, the land. I despair, but I will not give up. At times I feel completely naive and wonder if I’m fooling myself. The image of the guy in Tianeman Square keeps appearing. I wish there was a tank that I could confront ….
To embellish an old story:
A political campaign is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different branches, at different levels, some polling up, some polling down. The seat holders on the top look down and see a tree full of ambitious campaigners, with fire in their hearts, trying to climb up the top branches. The monkeys at the bottom look up and sadly, see nothing but assholes.
BobbyG @ 67
Absolutely, the country falls in line. There is no example in history (that I am aware of) to suggest otherwise.
There have been lessons learned from Vietnam. The current administration knows it has to keep moving, keep growing the risk, or the country won’t stay with them. So, the risks are going up. It is the only way forward for them at this point.
To beat this, there has to be a clear discussion before we go into Iran, in which the opposition party makes the case against the attack. Once the bombs start falling, it is too late.
If you are still with me, then you know that the torture bill is the beginning of the end. If the D’s don’t think this tangible, clearly bad piece of legislation is worth fighting, what evidence is there that suggests any of them are prepared to stop Iran from becoming the next Iraq? (Would that we would be so lucky; I actually fear that attacking Iran will be an order of magnitude more disastrous than Iraq has been.)
susan @ 81
Screw that. You’re gonna need that tank yourself, the way things are going. :)
I am so glad to read this continued outrage over torture at FDL. I am a huge fan of FDL. Mostly I just lurk, as my schedule generally prevents me from following all the comments, especially in real time. But I think this blog and this community are just what the country needs.
This has been one of the most distressing issues I have followed. It is very difficult to write about. It is horrifying to see people calling themselves patriots, or Christians, and then calling for torture. Torture IS a traditional value. But it is NOT a traditional value in the United States, or for people who try to follow the teachings of Christ. I am sickened by a media that sticks to euphemisms that describe torture as a new tool or an updated method. And the people calling for torture seem mostly to be people who have lived sheltered lives, and have not participated in the great battles of our times, either wars, or the many other struggles to improve the lot of living breathing human beings. The call for torture seems to come from the voice of inexperience and cowards. We need to actively fight for Democrats, AND we need to stand up against torture.
It angers me that someone like McCain has the moral authority here. I saw an interview with Michelle Bachelet, Pres of Chile, yesterday. She was tortured under Pinochet, and her father died in prison. Charlie Rose asked why she never talks about the specifics of her torture. She said on the question of torture - it’s all bad. So why speak of the degrees? She believes we must fight terrorism with democatic methods, not the methods of terrorists. She is also a a surgeon, pediatrician and epidemiologist, so she has a great deal of understanding of humanity, something McCain can only hope for.
Out here in California we have earthquakes from time to time.
Dogs are early walking alarm systems for them. I told Jake
about the renewed push to legislate torture and the Dem’s being
part of the collusion. He rolled on the ground and moaned and then
sat down on my Persian carpet looking like the dog Sphinx.
A dog can be picked up on the street and no Geneva conventions
protect them. they can even be “gassed” if not claimed or adopted.
He tells me ‘welcome to a dog’s world. He tells me that what is
going on is no politician wants to look soft on security or terrorism
right now as we are about to unleash a Tsunami of terrorism
against America and Israel worldwide with the October surprise of the bombing of Iran’s nuclear installations. I gave him a treat.
This nation of ours is quaking and not too many are feeling it.
Lobster’s comments are right on here. We all must find ways
to shout out and not be morally comprised by this
stench wafting over all of us.
I have posted the odious legislative documents here:
http://www.bgladd.com/King_George/
in case anyone is interested in the scummy details.
They’re all .pdf files from the GPO.
_
BobbyG@77 Tin foil? maybe.. I think it was about six months ago that there was a small flurry on the net about a $385 million contract awarded to KBR to construct detention facilities in the US. There was also a video (?valid) of new construction at what appeared to be an old factory complex, including renovation of buildings into dorms, new fences with razor wire pointed inward and “cattle runs” along rail tracks.
You are right, two years ago I would have committed myself for being a wacko..now crazy has turned to reality.
BobbyG@77:
That’s pretty tinfoil hat. Or, am I unaware of some factual stuff of timely relevance?
From the press release:
The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said.
Is “rapid development of new programs” tinfoil enough for you?
News on these facilities is hard to come by, but I did find an August 10 letter to Rep. Waxman suggesting that the contract is likely to go forward. How likely are these buildings to stand empty once they’re built?
ccmask @ 82
707