
I know Christy has already weighed in on this today, and so have Glenn Greenwald and Digby, but this is abjectly disgusting:
"A handful of principled Republican Senators have forced the White House to back down from the worst elements of its extreme proposal for new interrogation rules,” said Jim Manley, a spokesman for Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader. . . .
And Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, praised Senators Warner, McCain and Graham as “standing up to the administration” and producing a bill that, “while it has a number of problems, is a substantial improvement over the language proposed by the administration.”
We are now officially the country of torture. The image above of the hooded prisoner is the one that gets used the most not because it is iconic (although it is), but because the others are so horrific people instinctively turn away and don't want to face the conversation any more. The fact that Levin and Reid would applaud this as "standing up to the administration" is absolutely appalling. Totally aside from the moral bankruptcy and the political naivite they showed in getting punk'd by GOP kabuki, it is anything but an efficacious November strategy. As Glenn Greenwald says:
The only real advantage Democrats have during this election season is that Congressional Republicans are perceived to be rubber-stamping loyalists to George Bush who fail to impose any limits or checks on his behavior. But Sen. Reid and Sen. Levin are here to tell us that this isn't true, that Republican Senators are actually brave, principled and courageous and boldly stand up to the President in order to protect all of us not only from the Terrorists but also from the occasional excesses of the President.
I don't know what happened to the country I grew up to believe in, but I don't recognize it in this matter any more.
Neither, it appears, does Digby:
People and societies don't just wake up one morning to find they no longer recognize themselves. It's a process. And we are in the process in this country of "defining deviancy down" in ways I never thought possible. We are legitimizing torture and indefinite detention --- saying that we will only do this to the people who really deserve it. One cannot help but wonder what "really deserves it" will mean in the years to come as we fight our endless war against terror.
But Reid and Levin aren't the only ones who have dropped the ball here. As Froomkin says:
[A]s the White House gears up to use detainee policy as a political issue, it is incumbent on the press to remind the public that there are not only two choices: Doing it Bush's way and letting terrorists go free. Even if the Democrats aren't coherent about other alternatives, the press should be.
I'm hearing frustration from a lot of quarters that people feel this subject is not a "winner" for November and therefore should be abandoned. So I feel the need to ask the question -- is this important to you? Is this something you feel like your leaders are morally obligated to take a stand on whether it's a "winner" or not, and do you think that journalists (hint: Spotlight) should be pushing harder on? I honestly want to know.
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Thank you Jane and so am I (disgusted). You ask:
Yes, yes and yes!
I am disgusted…. especially so since McCain is my senator (DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM) and he is willing to give a Green light for others to do what the they did to him in Vietnam.
My Question…..
WHAT can we do?
Can we do anything?
Ready to dust off my eFax account and hit the send button!
Jane, this is so utterly beyond anything I ever thought would be a subject of discussion in America. It is important. “Important” isn’t a strong enough word! How is it possible people aren’t in the streets over this? How is it possible Reid and Levin could say what they did?
How is it possible the heads talking on the TV can go on with pleasantries and silly accusations over who is a real hero/terrorist/statesman/journalist — whatever — when America now officially tortures!
Even Bill Clinton smacking down Chris Wallace — even that is a bright and shiny distraction.
America has become the thing we called our enemies evil for: we torture.
We. Torture.
We do.
I have been trying to compose a comment for about 10 minutes now.
Anyone else have this happen? If something is unspeakable, what the hell can you say?
Echoing Angie, Yes, Yes, and Yes! I am as disgusted by the so-called compromise as I am by the original proposal. The more I read, the more upsetting it all is. I am also just plain sickened by the political theatre in Congress. The continual talk of the October surprise is nauseating. As is the “fix-is-in” talk. This whole election process marching into November is hellish. I honest to God don’t know what to believe anymore.
Ditto.
I’m so tired of being nauseated. Pass the compazine.
Worry about whether an issue is a “winner” is exactly why the Democrats keep running into trouble. It is also why they have not regained my respect. How scummy do you have to be to legitimize depravity? Their silence is always taken for assent.
This is THE issue for me. We had a discussion two threads down on this.
If the Democrats don’t stand up and fight this — hard — then I can’t help them. There is NO LEGITIMATE REASON that this has to be done now. NONE. If we can’t stall it for a week, then there is no point in having a Democratic party.
I say this as an activist that has registered thousands of voters, phone banked, knocked on doors, walked precincts, everything. This is IT.
I’m completely disgusted by this, mostly because somebody needs to slap down the “we torture or they go free” meme. God, what bs! The obvious alternative is to follow the freaking law! The one we have NOW!
The repubs must not be allowed to dilute the constitution.
Jane, Oh dear God YES!! This dwarfs Mickey Mouse and ABC and look how we fought that fiasco.
Who are we America? Are misguided Cashmere Christian Fundamentalists going to lead us all down a path back to the middle ages this week?
Will all of our children find themselves in Public Sembler schools for misguided souls by 2010?
Attack!
Margot @ 4
Yes, Margot. And when I finally put something together, it was so inadequate!
me too - I’m disgusted… (we are all going to need heavy doses of sedatives to keep our blood pressure down).
I’ve already written DiFi and I will call on Monday… any word from Boxer? Feingold?
Where all the generals who spoke up? peep outta them?
I am reposting my thoughts here from 2 threads back because…
“I don’t know what happened to the country I grew up to believe in, but I don’t recognize it in this matter any more.”
Neither do I.
We are not being led. We are being pushed.
I still don’t think things have gotten bad enough yet to get americans off the couch and protesting in massive numbers. I don’t know how much worse it has to get, I shudder to think what it will take. Maybe another 2 years of a republican controlled congress.
as troubling as the NSA warrentless wiretapping is, this is so far much WORSE!!!
if I had to pick between the 2 to filibuster, it would be to filibuster the torture…
you’re right jane, this doesn’t seem like the country we grew up in
I can’t think of a greater roots effort then the one that this situation presents
I think we have to do whatever it takes to get a filibuster and prevent our country from saying torture is fine.
this is so important, I don’t want to wait
now what we’ve been telling everyone was apparent is offficially documented by the presidents own agenencies
what have we done to ourselves?
the new york times is telling us in tomorrows paper what the national intelligence assessment reports
anyway, we have some great amo, from raw stort telling us about a new york times article
RAW STORY
Published: Saturday September 23, 2006
Print This Email This
Spy agencies say that the Iraq war has worsened the threat of terrorism, according to a front page article in Sunday’s New York Times.
“A stark assessment of terrorism trends by U.S. intelligence agencies has found that the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks,” reports Mark Mazzetti.
“The classified National Intelligence Estimate attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee, according to several officials in Washington who were involved in preparing the assessment or have read the final document,” the article continues.
Excerpts from Times article:
#
The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by U.S. intelligence agencies since the Iraq war began, and it represents a consensus view of the 16 disparate spy services inside government. Titled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States,” it asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread across the globe.
An opening section of the report, “Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement,” cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology. The report “says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse,” said one U.S. intelligence official.
….
For more than two years, there has been tension between the Bush administration and U.S. spy agencies over the violence in Iraq and the prospects for a stable democracy in the country. Some intelligence officials have said that the White House has consistently presented a more optimistic picture of the situation in Iraq than has been justified by intelligence reports from the field.
The broad judgments of the new intelligence estimate are consistent with assessments of global terrorist threats by U.S. allies and independent terrorism experts
that’s official, that’s the report from THIS presidents agencies and THAT is what he has done
this is not NEARLY as bad as the following BRUTAL fact;
the president was advised that the action he would take in Iraq would do exactly this
I’m 53 years old, a 4 year survivor of lung cancer. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t. I still have faith in God though and that keeps me getting up every day. I’ve lost almost everything material since my bout with lung cancer, except my FAITH. Please pray for our country so everyone is allowed to worship in the manner they see fit. I choose to follow Jesus, may you choose to follow someone who expresses love for each other, just as I understand Muhammed, peace be with him, also did. Don’t give up, believe, please?
In Jesus’ own words,
Peace!
LindaR @ 11
Honestly I could use a very succinct post that points out what Bobby G, Mary and others did this morning. Because I am finding it very difficult to sound civil when writing letters.
I want to spotlight the universe about this!
I for one will be up in a tree the evening before the election, watching my polling station with a video camera.
TURLEY: It is a violation of both domestic and international law. But more importantly, torture is immoral under every major religion
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14921882/
So would the evangelical Christian right support this? I’m thinking not.
The day of the “compromise” I attended an ACLU Townhall with John Dean and the Director of the DC ACLU discussing the NSA spying and of course this legislation.
Mr Dean said you were great on KO… he saw the interview…
They both were very concerned about this and feel that the next week will be the “Witching Hour in Congress”.
This very bill is the heart of who we are as Americans.
When America fails to be good then America fails to be great.
This is it…. the very event…. that will be the point that our children and grandchildren will know that America is no longer great or good.
I dislike saying this intensely about my party, but it is many Democrats who are letting the Bush administration get away with what they are doing.
I posted earlier today on this, and went and emailed all of my congresscritters.
_____
OK, I’m reading the revised House and Senate Bush torture indemnification bills as put in play yesterday (HR 6054 and S 3929 respectively).
They caved.
____
_____
Looks to me like Bush still gets to decide everything (and to interpret the meaning and applicability of Geneva), no one who got collared can invoke Geneva in any event, and there’s still blanket post facto CYA indemnification. Sux.
_
Good on Froomkin for pointing out that the political press isn’t like the sports page: Right and wrong are not the Yankees and the BoSox. The press actually can speak up for what is right, what is true, and what is Constitutional.
As I foraged for some solace this week, this seems representative of what the “general consensus” is and it makes me sick– we have to act, now.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00847.html
I’m rarely caught speechless, but this is one of those times. My only response to these congresscritters leaves me sounding like a motorboat: “But, but but, but… HOW COULD YOU???” This is so completely and utterly incomprehensible and unconscionable that I just can’t wrap my brain around how anyone who presumes to call himself or herself an American could POSSIBLY condone it. But, but, but, but, but…. (motorboat stalls out here).
From two threads back, a on-topic bumper sticker idea:
Torture a Republican
Vote for a Democrat!
Margot @
4
Yes, ma’am. LindaR said it best:
They will not get away with defining me like this. This goes against everything I believe. NO!
The most progressive of Democrats in Congress are railing against Chavez’s passionate, and for the most part IMO, accurate portrayal of Bush, then praising Republicans for allowing torture to become a legal American institution.
It’s gonna be difficult to rationalize voting Democratic in the upcoming election with voices like these actively supporting a criminal White House.
Something is fundamentally wrong with our non-representative form of government. What exactly happened?
Jane,
Yes, this is very important to me and the subject needs to stay “out there.”
Othe other hand, I do understand how the Republicans boxed the Democrats in on this one. Perhaps it’s up to Democrats not running for re-election to stand up loudly and often for the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions on this issue.
The Big Dawg slapped Chris Wallace around a little, why can’t he become the moral leader of the party. You know, it’s really not hard to say torture is wrong. And, by the way, where’s Jimmy Carter these days?
The mainstream press has a lot to be ashamed of, what with cheerleading this country into Bush’s war. It needs to stand up, also-I think we can count on Froomkin and Olbermann, at the very least.
So are Harry and Carl just waiting for the subject to turn back to Iraq? Iraq is a winner for Democrats, terror isn’t. Dems (let themselves) get backed into the corner every time on this issue.
I feel physically sick when I think about this and even sicker when I realize that the Democrats have let it slip. And done nothing.
What a frickin’ triangulation this “compromise” is, it’s so debased and so slimy. It’s all about November and the few being able to say, “see - we haven’t rubber stamped everything - we stood up to the president on torture.”
The fuck you did. I am sick and so sad for all of us, especially the poor innocents. God help us.
I despair.
Could someone who has it at hand please post a link to ALL Senators’ various addresses?
Thanks.
I am sickened and repulsed. These guys need to get deprogrammed right now. Do they comment without reading? Who is on their analytical staff? Is anybody doing any research? Or do they know what they’re talking about and believe in it?
We have become our enemy at the hand of George W. Bush. A horrible day in our country’s history. I feel shame.
Christy says Russ has something big scheduled for Monday.
I have pinned my hopes on him. If the D’s fold on the torture issue, the R’s will be further emboldened and we will be at war with Iran in October. Needless to say, bumper stickers won’t matter at that point.
PeeJ @ 18
Amen.
A little tangentially –
Lindsay has a post up about the fact that Mel Sembler, the Republican that threw a fundraiser for Leiberman this week, is not only the chair of Scooter Libby’s defense fund but made an awful lot of money with a series of “drug treatment centers” that psychologcally tortured kids.
I think the spotlight link is great, but what about adding the email addresses of Senators and Congress members?
It would make it so much easier to write them, en-mass, about our concerns.
Or, is it already on there and I’m too stupid to figure it out??? (paranoia is a terrible thing!!!) :)
LindaR @ 11,
————-
I just wonder sometimes if this is what it was like in post-WW2 Germany. What will we, ourselves, we Democrats, be blamed for? Will generations in the future say, “Why didn’t you STOP them? Why didn’t you take to the streets, do whatever it took!”
And that’s where I am stuck now. What is enough, what is too much?
ccmask @ 20
I have been thinking about this since I will be on another limb with you. I think I may folow my ballot box from the court house to the church (poll) and back again. It’s not going to be out of my sight for a minute.
John Dean said that if this bill passes with what he knows is in it…. it will be the coronation of King George.
The whole thing with the AWOL Democrats reminds me of alcoholics that have to hit bottom before they seek recovery. Well, bottom could be the total destruction of what we are as a country.
When did we become an uncivilized nation? I’m embarrassed to be an American.
And another thing. If this monstrous legislation is passed and it effectively nullifies the War Crimes Act and the courts take it up in the future, guess what? Anyone of these slack jawed and spineless syncophants is equally guilty and liable, imho.
It could happen. America can right itself. It’s happened before. I say no immunity for cowardice.
1,268 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher:
Up until this moment I have been of the same mind as Christy on this issue…that is to say, let’s keep our eyes on the prize in November and hope that the legislation will not pass the smell test in the federal courts. But I have now reached the point where I think that the outcome in November will be rendered meaningless unless we force our Democratic leadership to the wall on this and make this the defining issue of the election.
I have come to this conclusion after thinkin’ about Chuck the Bookkeeper Schumer’s remark about John Bolton bein’ “OK” now because he’s been “pretty good for Israel”. If we don’t force the Democrats to define themselves on this issue and allow the American people to express their disgust over the deconstruction of the constitution and the rule of law in November, I am convinced that it won’t matter whether the Dems win the congress or not. I am beginnin’ to think I understand what it was like for liberals, Social Democrats and leftists in Wiemar Germany in 1933. We hafta scare the Democratic leadership into doin’ the right thing NOW or we’ll never get control of ‘em later.
This is the defining moment in our history, Jane, and if we don’t take a stand here there will not be anything left worth winning in November.
Please Firepups, help me outta the incredible wave of depression and feelin’ of doom that has come over me today…I think we’ve been righteously and truly fucked and nobody has even unzipped their pants.
KEEP THE FAITH AND I’LL SEE YOU IN THE CAMP!!!
I agree one million per cent, Jane.
What happened to us (the U.S.)? The whole thing is a lie; we were always taught that we were the good guys; the guys in the white hats; the country that stood up for the little guy.
Who are we?
May God have mercy on us
On Countdown, Clinton spoke against torture. He, Carter, Colin Powell, as many military leaders as possible, need to say that passing this bill will make us less safe, not more, and that it must be stopped, or considered at least more deliberately.
The time is very short. We did not stop ABC from airing The Path to 9/11, and we are not powerful enough to stop this bill.
We need real firepower for this one. Can we get it? Jane? Did Clinton hand out his card?
You are all disgusted, for sure. You don’t understand what is happening to your country. Perhaps it is because that you all have your head stuck in the sand.
Your country is running the foreign policy of Israel! When you are ready to face that reality (which obviously none of you are at the moment), then things may perhaps change.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n18/judt01_.html
http://www.aschkar.org/article51.html
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=560
Good luck to you … and us all in the World!
… and this eye-opener:
http://ender.indymedia.org/?q=node/595
Chomsky! Who would have thought?
One quick action, Go over to kos and recommend Marys post.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/22/162417/304
There are two diaries over at Kos that are pushing an “poison pill” idea for countering the GOP rubberstamped say-yes-to-torture bill. They’re worth reading (link to second at foot of first.)
I too have been taken pretty much breathless by this development. I don’t have a clue what to do. I can’t stop thinking about it. I can’t understand how it just sails through and America as a country and a culture doesn’t come to a complete stop at the idea that we would condone torture. I padded out to get my morning LA Times and I can’t believe that the whole first page isn’t devoted to this story, to the horror and dishonor and shame. I ran over six miles this morning powered on anger to the point I had to do some “running meditation” in order to return home calm enough to be a decent husband and father. This is overwhelming!
So, they submit HR 6054 and S 3929 all of NINE days before end of session.
Rovian political blackmail, pure and simple. Pass what we want pronto or else we’ll hammer you with “weak on terror” ad nauseum right up to election day.
Anyone taking bets? Bush will get his retroactive CYA clause and the right to interprete Geneva and the right to define “torture.” Doesn’t matter that it remains unconstitutional (only the Supreme Court gets to ultimately interpret our obligations under treaties — look it up in the Constitution), he’s playing for time, continuing control of Congress (which Rove will deliver by any means necessary), and the ultimate 5th vote he needs on the Supreme Court down the road should he get to make another appointment.
King George.
_
Eureka Springs, AR @ 40
Lucky you to have a ballot box to follow. I get the feeling that following my Diebold machine wouldn’t do much good…
I genuinely believe that unless Diebold and other unverifiable voting is stopped everything else is moot. Won’t matter. The results will be programmed months in advance, and all the rest is a stylized Kabuki for the entertainment of the people who still believe that their vote counts for something. Color me depressed, cynical, and wearing my tinfoil hat.
Christy, Jane-
I’m disgusted, too. The best course of action might be for all of us to write Russ Feingold and encourage him to stand up all alone and filibuster the GOP torture bill, if for no other reason than to embarrass the shit out of his cowardly Democratic colleagues.
==================================================
|
|
V
My line in the sand..
Is Mary here?
I would dearly love to see her # 47 from 2 threads back posted here.
Marion in Savannah @ 51
And if it happens, Americans won’t rise up the way they did in Mexico. We’ve become a bunch of freaking sheep. (Present company *extremely* excluded, BTW!)
It’s difficult to take a positive view of American future near and far as many of us convey today. At which point do we no longer fight on fascists turf, the media, money and power and it seems almost the entire government in some degree are further and further out of reach to common Americans. Why isn’t their a greater repulsion to torture and abuse in our names since the second the first leak of abu ghraib was known. Why are we unable to except what the rest of the world already thinks of us, that somehow we are different. The truth is we pay for this Government, for the wars, prisons, torture and therefore share the responsibility. What ever we do to slow the growth of fascism in the U.S. is not enough.
The thing that outrages is not the Bush criminality, and immorality. I expect as much. That’s what Republicans do. What really angers is that some Democratic movers and shakers are going along with the Bush program. The Iraq War and the halt to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process being the most glaring and impacting examples. Not to mention tax cuts for the very wealthy at the expense of the middle class, working poor, and the destitute.
Jane, two observations, a question for you, and a suggestion.
Observation #1: Lots of people saw this coming a mile away. For the record, I told you so.
Observation #2: Sorry, but the conduct of Dem leaders throughout this mess has made “taking a stand” impossible for them at this point. What’s “Heckuva Job” Harry Reid supposed to say now? “Hey, I take back all the stuff I said three days ago about this all being nothing more than a “catfight” among Republicans, just a process story about intra-Republican squabbling. What I really meant to say was this is the most important issue of our time, even though I had nothing to say about it all last week and have been praising its proponents for the past several days?” Or how about Carl Levin? What form is this “stand” of his supposed to take at this point? Wouldn’t he first have to explain what he’s been doing down on his knees? I mean this seriously: having *completely* screwed this up, what is it you think these guys are supposed to do now?
Non-rhetorical question: why weren’t you pushing for Dem leaders to take a stand on this last week? Wasn’t that the time to demand that Dem leaders snap out of their stupor?
Suggestion: While the conduct of Dem leaders in the Geneva Conventions debacle has been pathetic, we need to resist the temptation to become despondent about it. It would be a *huge* mistake to convince ourselves that Dems are just as bad as Republicans or that this fiasco is so bad that the Dems don’t deserve to win anymore. This is an incredibly important election, and we can’t get overwhelmed by our disgust.
For starters: Republicans want to stay in Iraq, bomb Iran, suppress the basic oversight function required to be served by Congress in the American system of government, transform America into a police state (and yes, it could get much, much worse than it is now), cement America’s post-9/11 adversarial relationship to most of the world, weaken the UN, dismantle social security, further stack the federal judiciary (not just the Supreme Court) with lunatics, further erode the separation of Church and State, amend the Constitution to entrench discrimination against homosexual Americans and roll back already insufficient environmental protections just as it becomes clear that the global warming crisis is far more severe than most of us had realized. It’s so painful to watch Dem leaders blow it precisely because the stakes are so high.
I’m with Christy in saying that we need to move on (my words) and keep our eye on the ball.
Norske, even if you think WE are doomed, we must act to make things better for our children and grandchildren.
They will be the bewildered survivors of post-war
GermanyAmerica.We need to slow this descent into madness, teach as many people as possible about the truth of the situation, and be a witness to the world that we are trying to save our nation.
Our Congressional representatives are about to pass a bill legitimizing torture and immunizing those who commit the crime.
And the media wonders why bloggers are a bit shrill and angry these days?
This is too important. I’m glad it’s getting discussed in the blogs. We need to hold Congress accountable on holding Bush and his torture-a-thon accountable.
This deserves a response as large and vocal as the one against the ABC-GOP-TV 9/11 propaganda piece.
I’ll be calling my senators on Monday.
Margot @ 39
Well, can anything be too much when we’re trying to stop torture? As for what is enough, nothing is not enough. After that, I have to believe it is all good.
Like contributing $5 to a candidate when that’s all you have to give. Giving that five dollars is the difference between being a good citizen or being a jerk, basically.
There are hundreds of millions of citizens. Hundreds of millions of five dollarses can influence the political tides.
There are hundreds of millions of citizens. If we each voice our outrage in some way, the voice has to be heard. One letter, no. Thousands, tens of thousands of letters, yes.
So what is enough? I think anything is enough. Only nothing is not enough.
Use spotlight.
Write a letter.
Make a call to a representative.
Call a local TV station and ask when they are going to show their outrage against torture.
Slap on a bumper sticker.
Wear a button against torture when you do your grocery shopping.
What else?
http://www.senate.gov/
guess we have to call / email each one.
The future of our country is worth it.
And if we do attack Iran anytime soon, does anyone doubt that any new authority to round up and detain people — even citizens — either for judgment by King W or for indefinite detention will go unused, when there are thousands of Iranians living in America?
How far will it go, and what is the individual’s obligation to stop it?
Can we stop this train? I am losing my confidence.
http://www.house.gov/
Is this info on spotlight already?
“I don’t know what happened to the country I grew up to belive in, but I don’t recognize it in this matter any more.”
that bad news is that the America you knew is dead - it died the moment the SCOTUS instilled the bushliar-criminal regime. People need to adjust their thinking, their assumptions as to what the USA has become, not what it was.
the good news is that America is not a country, its an idea, and ideas can not be killed. Perhaps not here again, but somewhere, sometime, perhaps already existing, a majority of people in a society will agree that all people are equal, that they should live freely under the law, and that the government exists only serve the governed.
.
Lobster @ 64
Assume for the sake of argument/discussion here, that it’s true as being proffered — Bush will bomb Iran next month. What will be the upshot politically here? Will the bulk of the ‘murkin sheeple simply fall in line, “rally behind the CIC”?
_
Oklahoma kiddo at 57 — yes!
Toll Free number to congress - call 866.808.0065
Just ask for your senator or congressperson
Lobster @ 64
Last time I checked Southern California has the highest population of Iranians in the world outside of Iran. A few who are dear friends of mine.
Has any heard how far along KBR is on concentration camp construction? I assume the camps will be ready to deal with backlash from the October surprise and the November election results. Does anyone know?
I had read an excerp of the Kennedy article where the employer said that late at night, the Diebold workers went into the polling place to mess with the machines. And I just thought, well, damn, how hard is that to climb a tree…..Bush ain’t the only monkey.
Not a “winner”? Holy fuck. Yes, I am disgusted. Such utter moral cowardice is appalling. This goes to the heart of what this country is about, or at least what it has always aspired to be about, however imperfect the achievement of that aspiration. If we (Dems, press, public, anybody with a still-functioning conscience) do not stand up on this, we can wave good-bye to our country as it swirls down the drain.
Eric @ 58
If the Democrats are not willing to fight these things today, what do you believe an election can accomplish?
Last time I looked, we are staying in Iraq, a carrier group is on the way to Iran, the Congress is about to approve the pivotal legislation that will make the elements of a police state legal and routine rather than illegal and in the shadows, Schumer thinks Bolton is okay, whatever he might want to do to the UN, etc. — and I don’t see Democrats fighting back. In the absence of a serious pushback against this “compromise” bill, perhaps from leaders other than Reid and Levin, there is a very serious doubt in my mind that the Democrats have what it takes to stop the nightmare. If the torture bill doesn’t at least garner a party-line vote (which would at least lay the groundwork for the future, including the November election), then what’s the fucking point?
1,268 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Eric and egregious:
You are both right and that’s why I think that gettin’ down on this issue, even if it means losin’ in November, is our only opportunity to save our souls and our asses before the judgement of history and the rest of the world when we are put in the dock at the new Nuremberg trials that are sure to come. We must save our children and grandchildren by bein’ willing to show them the line of the truth that’s runnin’ thru our history this moment. The only way that the outcome in November will have any meaning is if we force everyone into combat on this right now!
KEEP THE FAITH, TOMMOROW IS GONE IF WE LOSE TODAY!
Have I had enough? Don’t stick a fork in me yet!
Steve @ 71
That’s pretty tinfoil hat. Or, am I unaware of some factual stuff of timely relevance?
_
The news largely seems to be treating this just as it did allegations of vote suppression and voting place irregularities in Ohio in 2004. No one really wants to dig into the details of this so-called “compromise” which institutionalizes and legalizes a laundry list of criminal behavior. Robert Parry is saying this proposed law resembles the amnesty laws written for dictatorships in Argentina and Chile.
Everybody thought the revelations about lying us into Iraq was a tipping point. No way. This is the tipping point. It defines what the government can do legally, in secret. Now does the President not only get to define what torture is and is not, but he can have anyone he wishes detained without habeas corpus. And if anyone thinks this is just about foreigners, think again. If he can take their Constitutional rights (and the Constitution says all people, without distinction), it means he’s going to be enabled, by this legislation, to take ours, too.
That’s not what the beltway boys are saying now.
Yes, it’s important, and I’m disgusted too.
The thing that upsets me the most is how almost all of our processes seem to have completely broken down. Opposing torture should literally be a no-brainer, but somehow almost nobody except the tireless liberal blogs seems able to raise a voice above a whisper, much less do anything about it.
The press should be pounding this story. It’s at least as important as a bogus break in a ten year stale murder investigation. Groups of physicians and psychologists should be decrying the programs (starting with SERE), and stating unambiguously that ethical professionals cannot take part, or stand by. Groups for remembering the Holocaust and other such atrocities should be saying “not here.” Student groups should be organizing anti-recruitment efforts, saying that they will not serve in a military that engages in these practices.
And, I know this is way too much to ask, but it would be kinda nice to have an opposition party in this country.
We are fucked. I can’t think of any other sensible interpretation of this bill.
The old argument of the ticking nuclear bomb justifying any means possible to get the info a la 24, or Dirty Harry looking for a buried girl.
. . . Breaking and entering is a crime. The possibility that a stranger, observing through the kitchen window a baby drowning in the kitchen sink, might be deterred from saving the baby does not lead us to legalize burglary.
From an excellent post at Mercury Rising.
pluege @ 66
I refuse to allow this country, my country, America, to die. Not now or ever. My country is not an idea. It is the Constitution, the people, the land. I despair, but I will not give up. At times I feel completely naive and wonder if I’m fooling myself. The image of the guy in Tianeman Square keeps appearing. I wish there was a tank that I could confront ….
To embellish an old story:
A political campaign is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different branches, at different levels, some polling up, some polling down. The seat holders on the top look down and see a tree full of ambitious campaigners, with fire in their hearts, trying to climb up the top branches. The monkeys at the bottom look up and sadly, see nothing but assholes.
BobbyG @ 67
Absolutely, the country falls in line. There is no example in history (that I am aware of) to suggest otherwise.
There have been lessons learned from Vietnam. The current administration knows it has to keep moving, keep growing the risk, or the country won’t stay with them. So, the risks are going up. It is the only way forward for them at this point.
To beat this, there has to be a clear discussion before we go into Iran, in which the opposition party makes the case against the attack. Once the bombs start falling, it is too late.
If you are still with me, then you know that the torture bill is the beginning of the end. If the D’s don’t think this tangible, clearly bad piece of legislation is worth fighting, what evidence is there that suggests any of them are prepared to stop Iran from becoming the next Iraq? (Would that we would be so lucky; I actually fear that attacking Iran will be an order of magnitude more disastrous than Iraq has been.)
susan @ 81
Screw that. You’re gonna need that tank yourself, the way things are going. :)
I am so glad to read this continued outrage over torture at FDL. I am a huge fan of FDL. Mostly I just lurk, as my schedule generally prevents me from following all the comments, especially in real time. But I think this blog and this community are just what the country needs.
This has been one of the most distressing issues I have followed. It is very difficult to write about. It is horrifying to see people calling themselves patriots, or Christians, and then calling for torture. Torture IS a traditional value. But it is NOT a traditional value in the United States, or for people who try to follow the teachings of Christ. I am sickened by a media that sticks to euphemisms that describe torture as a new tool or an updated method. And the people calling for torture seem mostly to be people who have lived sheltered lives, and have not participated in the great battles of our times, either wars, or the many other struggles to improve the lot of living breathing human beings. The call for torture seems to come from the voice of inexperience and cowards. We need to actively fight for Democrats, AND we need to stand up against torture.
It angers me that someone like McCain has the moral authority here. I saw an interview with Michelle Bachelet, Pres of Chile, yesterday. She was tortured under Pinochet, and her father died in prison. Charlie Rose asked why she never talks about the specifics of her torture. She said on the question of torture - it’s all bad. So why speak of the degrees? She believes we must fight terrorism with democatic methods, not the methods of terrorists. She is also a a surgeon, pediatrician and epidemiologist, so she has a great deal of understanding of humanity, something McCain can only hope for.
Out here in California we have earthquakes from time to time.
Dogs are early walking alarm systems for them. I told Jake
about the renewed push to legislate torture and the Dem’s being
part of the collusion. He rolled on the ground and moaned and then
sat down on my Persian carpet looking like the dog Sphinx.
A dog can be picked up on the street and no Geneva conventions
protect them. they can even be “gassed” if not claimed or adopted.
He tells me ‘welcome to a dog’s world. He tells me that what is
going on is no politician wants to look soft on security or terrorism
right now as we are about to unleash a Tsunami of terrorism
against America and Israel worldwide with the October surprise of the bombing of Iran’s nuclear installations. I gave him a treat.
This nation of ours is quaking and not too many are feeling it.
Lobster’s comments are right on here. We all must find ways
to shout out and not be morally comprised by this
stench wafting over all of us.
I have posted the odious legislative documents here:
http://www.bgladd.com/King_George/
in case anyone is interested in the scummy details.
They’re all .pdf files from the GPO.
_
BobbyG@77 Tin foil? maybe.. I think it was about six months ago that there was a small flurry on the net about a $385 million contract awarded to KBR to construct detention facilities in the US. There was also a video (?valid) of new construction at what appeared to be an old factory complex, including renovation of buildings into dorms, new fences with razor wire pointed inward and “cattle runs” along rail tracks.
You are right, two years ago I would have committed myself for being a wacko..now crazy has turned to reality.
BobbyG@77:
That’s pretty tinfoil hat. Or, am I unaware of some factual stuff of timely relevance?
From the press release:
The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said.
Is “rapid development of new programs” tinfoil enough for you?
News on these facilities is hard to come by, but I did find an August 10 letter to Rep. Waxman suggesting that the contract is likely to go forward. How likely are these buildings to stand empty once they’re built?
ccmask @ 82
707
BobbyG @
77
I know it sounds tinfoil hat, but I’ve got a couple of printouts in my office on this. I wish I could remember where they were from, but there are contracts out to build “detention camps” (I believe that was the term of art used) in the United States. Sorry I can’t remember more…
Since the dems never spoke up about the bombing of children in Lebanon, I don’t expect them to resist nuking Iran. They are behind the President’s rationale.
Are there any leaders in our country, from any public or private sector?
You know, that guy in the White House admitted to kidnapping people and tossing them in illegal prisons in other countries, he has admitting to wiretapping, he has admitted to torturing people and he grimaces and gets in our faces and says “yeah and I am gonna keep doing it, nobody can stop me.”
I thought each one of those was enough to make people gasp and work toward impeachment– both Dems and Republicans.
But no. Nothing, nada, zip. Just ignore the laws and the treaties and dontcha worry Mr. Executive, we’ll make it ok– we’ll do a little song and dance and change the law and the treaties and then we’ll stand up to you after we see who wins this November and in 2008. It’s all about us!
Well, I am sick of waiting.
Stop playing with our lives and the lives of so many across the globe!
Eric at 58 — you mean, this week when we ON MONDAY put forward a call to contact members of Congress on this issue? As we have been doing for weeks?
Don’t come here and get all sanctimonious when we have worked our asses off on torture and domestic spying and all sorts of other Constitutional issues over months and months. Nothing pisses me off mroe than someone telling me I didn’t do anything when I have been doing the damned work for weeks on end. Try looking around the blog before you do that next time. Jeebus.
I told myself that once I really got engaged here, I would drop the nickname — Lobster. I picked that out of the hat while undergoing radiation therapy for spinal cancer back in April. I was as red as a lobster for several weeks, and I paid good money to get that way.
Anyhow, I’m going to be “Bill” from now on.
As far as the cancer goes: who knows? I’m two years in, and there isn’t much left that can be done if the radiation didn’t stop it. So if I get kind of excited from time to time, it is probably because I’m newly aware of my own mortality. (I’m 40 years old.)
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program…
And, not to dissapoint, a high speed train for a comfortable journey to the camp.
BobbyG @ 77
It’s true. They’re ICE Detention Centers
Lobster @ 83
Iran has 3 times the population and geographical size of Iraq and a large standing army with significant hardware. We can’t even stabilize Iraq. Bush is idiotically determined to create a HUGE mess.
They’re probably all sitting there in the WH still persuaded that hitting Iran will cause Iranians to rise up and overthrow their own government. They’ve learned nothing.
_
Yes, but this issue cannot be fought by democrats unless democrats are willing to string together all the things bush has done to make us weaker on the world front. We have to be actively fighting the “weak” label that they will throw our way if we fight the good fight. But never before has there been more evidence to frame this issue and to make it clear that Bush is a bully. We string together a bunch of his “bring it on”, his deviance, his signing statements, his lack of accountability, his promises about how rosy things would be in Iraq, let other countries words ring, snippets of criticism from the world and then we make it clear that the bully on the block is always the kid with the black eye.
We also could do some adds with no sound showing the torture of americans and us then show clips of us trying to say that it is wrong.
God help us this can only work with a unified message from the green party and the dems. We need to ban together like we have never done before.
Then the bigger picture, Iraq, afghanistan, katrina, torture. Snippets of people suffering. The republicans don’t care about you. Are you going to be fooled again??
Please let’s get this thing rolling…the republicans are not the pro life party. We should be touting that message. We could show one pro life ad after another, smippets and then show one after another of death, destruction and torture. Pro life??? Nope only for the near dead or the nearly alive.
Jane - thank you for asking this and for embracing the discussion.
A number of years ago, I met two victims of torture by SAVAK, the Iranian secret police funded by our country in support of our pal, the Shah. We sat in a living room in NYC, at a meeting of the first Amnesty International group in the US, and they spoke of their experiences … the pain, the fear, the humiliation and the unending scarring of their lives. The torture of Iranian citizens led to the rise of the Khomeni revolution and all that’s come since. And those faces have been in front of me continuously as we face legalizing torture.
What is the point to being netroots, to being activists, to anything we do if we do not do it with a moral basis, a commitment to the most fundamental rules of civilization.
Let’s make it mighty clear to Reid and Levin and all the rest that we will not be the good Germans in their game.
It’s important. And right now I’m so disgusted with the Democrats, I can’t even think straight.
Bill @ 96– hey there.
I am rooting for you, sir.
Do you all know about World Can’t Wait and Oct. 5 Day of Resistance? I’m planning to be out in the street here in Seattle - can’t hurt. Can it help? If enough of us where there? Every Sunday I’m a woman in black… and I’m going to add “No Torture” to my “Peace” sign. Can’t hurt. Can it help? If enough of us….?
Bill @ 96
Bill, healing wishes wending their way to you.
Bill: God speed! I can imagine what you must be going through and to have this war and nasty stuff on top of it all must be a bonus horror. Hang in there!! I’m so sorry…
angie, regarding impeachment. Bush is obviously sorely in need of a blowjob.
angie @ 103
Count me in on that.
Raph Levien and othere, thanks for the ICE stuff. Interesting.
Though, I remain a bit skeptical.
_
Bill, please stick with us. I’m glad you’re here.
The republican Party wants YOU.
The nearly dead. The nearly alive.
The rest of us just don’t matter to the republicans.
montag @ 84
Unfortunately,
in China, the man in the tank just couldn’t roll over that brave, brave, citizen.
Do you honestly think they’d afford us the same courtesy?
Nope. We’d be road-kill.
America is in a sad state right now.
IIRC the ICE camps were also tied to “End Game”; the plan to incarcerate and deport illegals and others the gov’t considered to be unfit.
LindaR @ 107
Add my voice.
Steve @ 89
omg Lots of hits on google about this
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ar.....ricans.htm
Eric at 58 Non-rhetorical question: why weren’t you pushing for Dem leaders to take a stand on this last week? Wasn’t that the time to demand that Dem leaders snap out of their stupor?
If you read fdl frequently, you would know that torture is a top priority here. And we WERE pushing for action last week.
Let’s keep our eyes on the prize, folks, and save the “I told you so’s” for after we win this battle, ‘kay?
Thanks, all. I read just about everything that gets written here, but often don’t have time to settle in for a good discussion in real time. If there are other lurkers out there, come on in. It is rewarding.
angie @ 103
Glad to meet you, Bill. I’ve enjoyed your “lobster” posts, but had to work to get past the fact that lobster makes me sick! We’re all rooting for you, and I will light a candle in church for you. (It’s like chicken soup … it can’t hurt!)
Here’s what I don’t get: how can the Dems be so naive as to think that when there is any push-back against the president from the GOP that it means those pushing back are any more on the Dems’ side than Bush is?
Why does it always have to be up to us to read these bills and then broadcast their meaning to the people actually sitting in Congress - people with staffs who are paid to keep them informed? Here we are with jobs and families and houses to clean and laundry to do and errands to run and kids’ sports events to go to, and homework to help with and meals to cook and we still manage to know more about the legislation being proposed than the people we elected to Congress? How am I supposed to have faith in the people I voted for if they cannot even meet this most basic of obligations?
If the Dems have not learned anything from John “Offer me something and I might sell you my grandmother” McCain, or Lindsey “I may sound like Huckleberry, but I’ll cut the legs right out from under you” Graham, then the lot of them need to go.
I think we need a post that, sad to say, will have to spell out in the simplest terms possible what the legislation means. If there is any way to add House and Senate Dems to the Spotlight feature, I would make a contribution toward that effort.
WOuld that we could organize a meeting with some of these Dems to hammer home that caving in on this travesty of justice may mark the breaching of the sacred wall that separates us from “them,” and the beginning of totalitarian rule in this country. Do they really want that to be their legacy?
NorskeFlamethrower @ 75
Am I reading correctly what you are saying? That there is a case to be made for the idea that truth and principle trump practicality? That perhaps the ends do not always justify the means? That doing the right thing IS what counts? That it’s how we play the game that’s important. And I would like to think that these old fashioned American virtues, which Bush and his troops have so effectively plowed asunder, are what you are talking about. If so, then I most assuredly agree.
Bill - lovely to remeet you in your street clothes! You’ve got the spirit to win!
Folks, the concentration camp stories may or may not be accurate … but the administration is very smart and likes to keep the abuse and torture distant from america - they’ve understood that if they leave all of us alone and just do these things, over there to those brown people, we’re not going to get too upset.
Let’s prove them wrong.
Steve @ 89
Nitpicking - razor wire doesn’t point inward. It points both ways. If you mean the wires it’s on are slanting in, then say so. (I’ve seen enough of it.)
BTW, it’s just conspiracy theory unless you can produce better information than this.
That’s funny….
You’re disgusted but I can’t seemt to find yer ActBlue page on this site.
First law of politics: Don’t like the poltroons in power?
Vote ‘em out.
The MSM only mentions waterboarding as possibly being out - torture. Does that mean things like dogs chomping at the gonads are in? What about naked piles of human flesh? Female interagation of Muslims? What about the good ole toilet head flush - that is an American standard? I bet Cheney would confess to being Bin Laden in disguise if he had 24 hours of Eminem or music from Iraq? The USA - the land of torture since 2001.
I was talking today to Andy Hurst, who is running against Tom Davis in the VA 11th Congressional District. He was so disgusted with this torture issue. He says that if we’re going to condone torture, we may as well toss in the towel. We’re not a democracy anymore.
Some people I talked with said they thought the Supreme Court would overturn the law. I told them not to count on it.
Don’t know if this has been commented on, but TPM has an article up that said only 10% of Congress knows what techniquest the bill entails.
As lawmakers prepare to debate the CIA’s special interrogation program for terrorism suspects, fewer than 10 percent of the members of Congress have been told which interrogation techniques have been used in the past, and none of them know which ones would be permissible under proposed changes to the War Crimes Act.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....009937.php
Company coming over tonight, gotta go get ready.
G’night, all.
I too agree.
The people who talk about how the ends justify the means forget that the means always determine the end. Unjust and corrupt means lead to unjust and corrupt ends.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 119
Since I won’t be here tomorrow …
Jane and Christy, if you do a thread tomorrow on the Clinton, Chris Matthews interview - please add this link
Terrorist Attacks Bill Clinton Stopped
From what I remember it’s all true. And the list will completely blow away any dissembling by the Faux “News” types and the Bushies.
And any questions as to whether or not Clinton had an anti-terrorism policy can be utterly and completely refuted with PDD 39
YES!!!!!!!!
is this important to you? - YES!!!!!!!!
morally obligated to take a stand? - YES!!!!!!!!
one more thing… if the cheney administration really is intent on bombing iran - Ds (especially in the senate) have to show NOW that they are capable of genuine opposition. make cheney et al. think twice about starting a war with iran (and probably the rest of the islamic world).
finally, this is a line i can not cross - i just can’t support anyone who is willing to concede this (torture, habeas corpus) without a fight (a real fight - not a fake one to placate the troops)
but, here’s the thing…. i don’t think this has to be a looser.
1. everything reid et al. have (stupidly) said about mccain et al. “standing up to the administration” can be explained with a “i’m so disappointed to see that the so-called “compromise” is nothing of the sort. i thought better of mccain et al., but now i see that even they have become a rubberstamp for an administration’s most immoral conduct”. can’t you see how important it is to have someone (that would be democrats!) to hold this administration accountable. mccain is weak, reid et al. are strong - we are going to show those rubberstamp republicans what it means to be strong….
2. the filibuster only has to be for one week. after that there is more than a month to discuss other stuff (iraq, the economy).
3. the filibuster could even be used to talk about other stuff… for example, something like:
i’m sure better political minds than mine can do better. my point is only that we can be creative and do the right thing WHILE doing the pragmatic thing.
jane, thank you thank you for this post. i’ve been dispairing that the blogswarm i want to see won’t happen… but, if you are on the case - i have hope. thank you.
p.s. i’m willing to do a lot more than call my congress critter’s offices on monday (already did that last week)… would love to discuss and plan here what actions would be the most helpful.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
Christy - I don’t have words to decribe my awe at the warrior in you. You inspire my inner warrior and for that I thank you every day. (just not so loud that I would risk waking lil Peanut.)
Like It Or Not - A Very Tricky Situation For Democrats
There’s a lot of harsh language on this subject for the Democratic leadership, and I don’t necessarily disagree with it, but I think that people are really missing something here. This entire situation was fabricated by Republicans, for Republicans. It’s a lose-lose situation for Democrats. If the Democrats stand up against this legislation, they will be steamrolled as “soft on terror” by Preznit Bush and his gigantic media Wurlitzer. If they acquiesce, a civil war within the Democratic party ensues, as you’ve seen here in this very post by Jane.
Let’s try to hope for a third possibility. Reid and the leadership want to win the election so they can actually do something about this torture stuff. Right now, the Democrats are in the minority. The minority party can’t do very much.
Please, everyone. Let’s give the Democrats a chance. This is not the time for internecene fighting. Let’s win this stupid election, and take our country back. THEN we can do something about this travesty!
what he said!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/floyd/floyd30.html
I wish I could keep up with the thread here, as this is absolutely the most important issue there is to be talking about.
Here is my take: Don’t let history repeat.
See Lawrence Velvel most importantly.
Bill - wishing victory for you in your battle; somehow, it makes your participation in this other battle we are engaged in all that more valuable.
Bill @ 96
Billster - white light on you amigo
Levin should resign. I am going to call his office and ask why he will not stand up for the US constitution
Eureka Springs, AR @
114
Which is exactly why I ask, what’s too much and what’s not too much?
We are not dealing with people in authority who recognize the law here anymore, it seems to me.
Not only has the president arrogated the title of Emperor, now he also is the second coming of Torquemada.
I am totally disgusted.
I am angry beyond all belief. I expect this from the Republicans and Bush, but the Democrats behavior is beyond reprehensible.
As far as I am concerned, the Democratic Party is dead to me. The best thing that could happen to us may very well be to let this election go, and have the Dems fail completely, once and for all. Then perhaps we can build an effective opposition party once we no longer have the false hope of “rebuilding the party from within”. Yes, we will experience more pain, but we may need to hit rock bottom before enough people are willing to act.
This may be my anger and disgust talking, but at this point, I cannot bring myself to vote for any Democratic incumbent, and if we lose, we lose. It might be for the best.
rudy @
104
Rudy, these demonstrations will be a good measure of what’s going on. There are two days of events being planned here.
This bill was just a joke. It was all planned. Bush asked for more than he wanted and the three republeteers stepped up and oppossed him–once again leaving Dems to thankfully clutch their pearls. So McCain & Co acted like they were making concessions and the dems end up with one finger up their nose, the other up their a**, waiting for someone to yell switch! And Bush wins.
Torture? Who said anything about torture?
Look at the media. They don’t talk about torture. They talk about aggressive interrogation and abusive and coercive practices. There’s no torture there.
And Bush? He talks about “the program”. No torture there.
And McCain, Warner, and Graham? They are all fine upstanding men. They would never compromise on torture so whatever they compromised on it wasn’t torture.
And the Democrats? They are pretty quiet but it’s clear that they’re not for torture either.
So there you have it: no torture so we and they can all go home and feel better about ourselves because torture when you think about it is a really, really nasty business. It is about sadism and moral vacancy. To accept it or admit it would be a betrayal of our deepest beliefs and principles. So our political leaders and the media don’t. Perhaps they think that if they ignore it or call it by another name, it will go away. It is this which passes for conviction and courage nowadays. These people did not lose their moral compass, they threw it away.
The issue is a winner only if the Democrats make it clear to the larger public that torture is not in our interest for both moral and practical reasons, because it is repugnant and unproductive. In tandem they need to present a strong, coherent approach to terrorism stated in plain, simple, vigorous language everyone can understand. At the same time they should mercilessly pound on the shortcomings of the administration with a unified voice. Is this a pipe dream or isn’t it? Less than ten people of reasonable intelligence should be able to churn out the outline of such an approach without difficulty. Instead the Democrats seem to prefer to wallow in managerial and quasi-literary bunk; see for example the speechifying of Barak Obama, the chilling ambiguity of Hillary Clinton, the one-man-show antics of John Kerry. Please note: I am a genetic Democrat. Would that the Democratic Party would now have a heart for me!
I strongly disagree. If the Dems can’t stand up for this, why should we expect them to do any better if they win in November? The minority party can do a LOT! At least they can take a stand, LOUDLY, that Dems don’t support torture, that they have some principles. I expect bad things from the Repugs but get angry and discouraged when I see that the Dems are no better.
Bush keeps trying to convice us that we need to get rid of inconvenient laws in order to be able to get after the terrorists. Maybe he should read “A Man For All Seasons” by Bolt, about the life of Thomas More. He had a little exchange with a smarmy little creep who wanted to marry his daughter:
“Roper:
So now you’d give the devil the benefit of law?
More:
Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the devil?
Roper:
Yes, I’d cut down every tree in England to do that.
More:
Oh, and when the last law was down and the devil turned ’round on you where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, man’s laws not God’s, and if you cut them down — and you’re just the man to do it — do you really think that you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the devil the benefit of the law, for my own safety’s sake.”
That wind is starting to blow…
Lobster @
35
It would be wonderful if Russ, who sounds great when he actually decides to say anything, decides to GRAB THIS ONE AROUND THE THROAT, stands up at his press conference, and says simply that he will personally fillibuster this thing until the Senate recesses.
Wouldn’t that be sweet?
PJ Evans@ 121..you are correct..it was barbed wire not razor wire. Conspiracy theory..maybe..time will tell. The KBR contract, End Game, and procedures to use civilian prison labor by the military can be verified on gov’t sites. Two years ago I would have put this in the category of UFO sightings; now that we are going to legalize torture etc. who knows.
Eric @ 58. Humph! If you don’t think folks around here, namely Christy and Jane, haven’t been urging, pleading, demanding, and bashing the Dem leadership to grow a spine and stand up for the country and constitution, man, you haven’t been around much, have you? That’s a troll comment if ever I’ve seen one.
Now, your other point is maybe more apporpriate. So these as**oles pass their we-love-torture law, totally along party lines, and we use that to kick their sorry butts out of the house and senate. Hell yeah. Fix it in January, followed by the investigation and resultant impeachment proceedings, then of course followed by the war crimes trial.
Hey a guy can dream.
I hope that Feingold does this thing and if the rest of the dems stand silent as they did (except for Tom Harkin) when he announced his censure resolution…
well, then.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01519.html
It occurs to me that one of the reasons people seems so blase about this subject is the way they have sort of trickled into our lives. It’s like the slow erosion of a piece of land, that one day you realize is half the size it used to be.
If, one day, people woke up and all the things that this administration has done were to be announced as being effective immediately, people would be in the streets, taking back their country.
But the insidious nature of this slow erosion of democracy, together with all the encouragement to just keep going about our lives lest the terrorists win, is that most Americans do not have a sense that anything the Bush administration has done has affected them to any great degree. Still going to work. Still paying bills. Still going to the mall. What’s the big deal about the treatment of people we don’t even know?
The sad and bleak truth is that most people will not wake up until something affects them directly, and at that point, it will be too late.
How do you get people to see what the future holds if these things are allowed to continue unchecked? Are they as devoid of imagination as those whose excuses are always prefaced with, “no one could have foreseen?”
It says something awful about this country that people would fight harder to keep the government from taking away their houses and their cars than they will the precious rights that allow them to have those possessions.
baghdadjoe @ 130
No. These Democrats are supposed to be all grown up. For example, Republicans are not “fabricating” what Democrats who support the Iraq War, are saying.
Why are the Dems so cowardly? How did this Regime acquire such power over them? Does it all go back to the Anthrax?
I am disgusted. Anyone who knows what this Regime has done sees the devil’s work.
Do we have to get our passports in order because the next two years (without Subpoena Power) see the Dissent placed in these brand new Detention Centers?
I am extremely worried.
Well, I’m gonna go refiberglass and wax my waterboard. See you guys later!
helina at 145 — I don’t know what the topic is going to be, but I was told by someone who ought to know that it is a major speech. Guess we’ll see…
OK. Fist off: Thanks for the post. Very powerful post.
Two essential points we need to see: (1) the ’structure’ of the argument and (2) the ‘content’ of the argument. Bush controls both still.
Here’s how it works, and some possible solutions.
Structure: Bush wants this to be an “either or” structured argument. He’s wanted it all along, but first he had to deal with the Republican ‘heroes’ (pause…vomit….continue) mucking up his PR plan. Now they’ve been dealth with. Bush told McCain he’d tell the Liberty University to vote for him or something–who knows. And so the debate became “Either you vote for my bill, or the Dems are bad.”
Right then and there, the Dems should have walked away from this debate and said:
And then they should have walked out.
Content: The notion that torture makes the country safe is flat out wrong. It is false content based on the “ticking bomb” myth. The myth states that a bomb is about to go off and you catch a prisoner and you need to torture him to find out where the bomb is and save the human race. Absolute nonsense. In a free society people are always free to torture–but they can never be free from the criminal penalties for doing it. The question every interogator must be faced with is always the same: Is this situation so extreme that I must break the law in order to get information? Without that question, we are no longer a free society.
But given the ticking bomb myth–what would have kept us safe in the first place? A smart system of national security that innovates and hustles to stay one step in front of any threat out there. A terrorist tells us there is a bomb about to go off in downtown Houston–our interrogator laughs, pulls out a suitcase, opens it and says,”You mean this bomb? We found it last week you smarmy dope. Now, I have a few questions to ask you about your friend in the room next door…”
That’s security. In Bush’s world, our national security stumbles around like a drunk frat boy with two right feet–grabbing anything he sees in random searches and then takes out his plastic wrap and a ten gallon bucket of water so he can feel like a man when he makes a total stranger his bitch. But it has nothing to do with getting the truth. Torturing a prisoner makes him talk the truth about as much as beating a dog makes him play the violin. It’s a nonsense argument.
And that (or something like it should be the content of the Dems argument.
So, is this the final straw? Nope. It’s more of the same. We dig in, keep pushing.
1,268 dayz and the killin’ goez on and on and…
Oklahoma Kiddo:
Yes, that’s what I mean…there a moments in individual lives and in the lives of communities that define those lives and we are at one here as individuals and as members of the human community. If we do not as individuals do everything in our power to bring this issue to trial before the people in November, then whatever the outcome of the election will be meaningless and our place in the dustbin of history will be secured.
I think that the Democratic Party as a force for the truth and as a microphone for the voice of the people is lost.
KEEP THE FAITH AND LET’S GO DOWN FIGHTIN’!!
yabadabado @ 123:
The MSM only mentions waterboarding as possibly being out - torture. Does that mean things like dogs chomping at the gonads are in? What about naked piles of human flesh? Female interagation of Muslims? What about the good ole toilet head flush - that is an American standard?
There seems to be a lot more heat than light out there as to the exact interpretation of the language. IANAL, but I did my best to read the plain language of the bill (as cited by Marty Lederman), and my conclusion is that all of these things, including waterboarding, are A-OK, two thumbs up.
The definition of “serious physical pain or suffering” seems to me to be carefully worded to include only substantial risk of death, permanent injuries (cuts, bruises, and abrasions are specifically excluded), and pain tantamount to organ failure. Waterboarding, because the sense of impending death is merely faked, would seem to me not to qualify. Further, there is no specific prohibition against the use of animals, and the definitions of sexual abuse mostly involve putting things inside the anal and genital openings, which would seem to me to give the green light to the naked pile. There is an interpretation of “sexual contact” which might cover it, but that language has an intent clause, which, given that the president is the one who gets to interpret all this, isn’t very damn likely to lead to prosecutions.
I don’t see anything that would remotely prohibit female interrogation, toilet flushes, plain ol’ fashioned beatings, sleep deprivation, temperature extremes, isolation, or any of these other fun games.
This reference is likely to be useful for following the various definitions referenced in the torture bill itself.
EllenG @
138
The Republicans aren’t going to stop at torture. Sitting out this election is not an option.
I’m all for purging, starting with the ineffectual, do-nothing Harry Reid. But retaining minority status is not a battle plan. Winning the election, and then raising hell, is.
Hey Bill, just to let you know my good friend just celebrated her five-year cancer-free date, after a hell of a battle. I wish you well and send you much healing energy.
forgive me, but it looks like mary is not here… so i am reposting her comment from 2 threads back:
Mary @ 47
PeeJ @ 18,
My hugs and prayers go out to you!
What a sad day for this country.
Worldwide leaders like Ghandi, Mandela, and Martin Luther King, and others that this nation used to stand for is being trashed and no politician stands up.
I know politicians are followers and not leaders, so let’s elect some leaders!
Charlie Rangel indeed.
What about the dems doing what the Texas dems did and simply walk out until past the recess date?
BTW, take a look at James McMurtry’s lyrics to “We Can’t Make it Here Anymore”
http://www.jamesmcmurtry.com/w.....lyrics.htm
Last month I was predicting here that we would probably be engaged in nuclear war with Iran by September 25th. Thank God, it is beginning to look like I was wrong! Hopefully, not just an early prediction, eh?
But here we are with the 25th looking like the day we pass out of the zone of “the last best hope” to the zone of “the past best hope.” Those of us here who are unrepentant Greens but have fully embraced supporting Democrats in 2006 1000% are beginning to wonder how we got so excited about the possibility the Dem establishment would be attracted toward the progressive light and away from the dark side of the Corporate State juggernaut.
Go, Russ!! We’ll be out in the streets for you in the tens of thousands by Thursday or Friday if you can hold them back that long.
Anne @ 118
All of that, and most of us with a whole lot less income than they have.
I snailmailed Boxer, DiFi, Pelosi and my own inconspicuous congress-critter. Those letters should be being delivered Monday (if not already for the more local stuff). I’m still surprised the paper wasn’t smoking. My level of pissed hasn’t dropped a lot yet from Thursday night.
If they’re waiting to hear from contituents before they say anything, they aren’t worth the powder and shot it would take to blow them away, to use an old, old phrase.
Only Susan Madrak at HuffPo comes close to expressing the disgust that I feel toward the Democratic senators for not filibustering this one — click here.
There is the old saying: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.” Bush fooled the democrats with the AUMF. They authorized and he abused that authorization. Now again they are defering to the president the right to define the terms of compliance for the Geneva conventions. And he has already made it abundantly clear that he is going to define things so that he war crimes are legal.
Either Reid and his colleagues are endorsing Bush’s war crimes, or they are the biggest fools on the face of the planet. In any case, I’d rather see real republicans in office that this bunch of stealth-republicans, who’ve been calling themselves democrats. Apparently one bad apple like Lieberman can spoil the whole barrel. Let’s thrown the rest of them out too.
I’m disgusted.
baghdadjoe @ 130
I commented on this a few threads back. It is always a win-win for Republicans and a lose-lose for Democrats. To accept the narrative is to accept defeat here and always. We need to change the narrative. The Republicans have failed. They have failed for 5 1/2 years. Do things their way and you aren’t buying strength, you’re accepting failure. Torture is the recourse of a policy that has failed. It doesn’t work. It hurts us more than it helps. And it turns us into things we don’t want to be.
Christy at 95, er, Christy of FDL
First, let me make something completely clear. I am a huge fan of your site, and of what you and Jane have accomplished here. I’m not trying to be sanctimonious, or for that matter, a dick. You’ve done great work on torture and detainee issues, and a host of others.
But as to your Monday post, no, that isn’t what I mean. I saw your post, on the Monday you posted it. FDL is one of the sites I check several times each day. My question was not posed to you, but to Jane. I said in my post that the question was non rhetorical, but that was disingenuous, given how I put it. Sorry. What I should have said was: “These were good demands to make last week, before the Dems got played. But they’re unrealistic demands to make this week, now that the Dems have been blown up.” Maybe I sounded like a dick in the way I put it. Again, sorry.
Raph at 90, press release The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. egr bold.
WHAT NEW PROGRAMS?????
Political opponents, journalists, suspicious neighbors that the
CommunistU.S. government needs to make this month’s quota?I once asked a Russian colleague to try to explain, just how they could kill 20,000,000 of their own people, most of whom were obviously innocent. Answer: to show they can, and for slave labor. Method: monthly quotas—find some people and bring them in. People settling grudges turning in their neighbors or family members? Good enough.
If you think it can’t happen here, think again. They have lied us into war and stolen elections, tortured innocent people and called it holy. Why would they stop there?
I’m thinking that taking on the British Empire in 1776 didn’t look like a “winner” either. These SOB’s in Washington better make it a goddamn winner.
Eric at 168 — thanks, I’m on edge today and I probably came off a bit crabbier than I intended as well. This whole week has sucked, frankly, due to three-year-old illness and lack of sleep — and when you add in all of the catch-up reading I’ve done all at once over the last two days…well, it’s a lot of crap news to digest all at once. So apologies if that was more abrasive than I intended as well.
Bush &Cheeeie WHORE’S one and ALL! Please dear LORD don’t LET this HAPPEN. AMEN
In general, executioners are not held in high esteem– I think a little of their soul dies with each death and perhaps only a hefty dose of rationalization helps them through their dark and lonely days.
I wonder what happens to the souls and psyches of the torturers/killers/kidnappers? Are they heroes? Do they see themselves as heroes? Do we celebrate their deeds? Are they defending America? Are they fighting for democracy?
I don’t think so.
baghdadjoe @ 130
Y’know, it just bothers the livin’ shit out of me when the greater concerns in what is a clear-cut moral and Constitutional issue are the political ramifications of it.
If a Democrat stays silent about this–or votes for it–they don’t deserve reelection. They’re no better than their opponents across the aisle. This is one giant step toward totalitarian rule, and if a Democrat can’t figure that out (i.e., read the damned legislation before voting on it), they ought to get thrown out on their ass.
Let’s put it this way. You go right ahead and excuse bad behavior. I ain’t voting for any of that. That would mean I approve of their failure to stand up to these pricks.
Dover Bitch @ 170
good point.
if we wait for it to look like a winner before we start - then we’ll never be able to make it look like a winner.
it ALWAYS looks like this for the people who are out in front…
I stand on a corner every Friday with other PATRIOTS - just 1.5 hours - that is all it takes - to start.
Before these illegal occupations - there were more catcalls.
NOW = more thumbs up/honks.
Sheeple are waking up - we have a few weeks left —
Perhaps everyone on this board could stand on their OWN STREETCORNER with a SIGN or two?
http://www.worldcantwait.net/
On October 5, people everywhere will walk out of school, take off work, and come to the downtowns & townsquares and set out from there, going through the streets and calling on many more to join us - making a powerful statement: “NO! THIS REGIME DOES NOT REPRESENT US! AND WE WILL DRIVE IT OUT!”
Absolutely disgusted and heart-sick.
This isn’t just an important issue to me, it is an absolute bottom-line, line-in-the-sand, no compromise.
I called my Senators yesterday, signed a few petitions - what can we do to make a difference?
I’m still supporting Democrats. I don’t think there’s any alternative right now. But they are making it damned hard for me to support with any enthusiasm.
I’ve read none of the comments above - just now read the post and came here - if I’m repeating I’m sorry.
Y’know, at some point - like here - polls, political advisors, etc, shouldn’t mean a gaoddamnm thing. If it isn’t here that you stand up, then I have no use for you whatsoever.
I don’t care whether or not this is a political winner. Any human being who can support torture, no matter by what definition, is one that the world can do without - period - and most certainly one that I don’t want in office.
Any politician who waffles on this at all - even a little bit - is in somebody’s pocket - and that’s all you should need to know.
If the question is whether to scream or shut up - as political expediency and best strategy - fuck it - may we please at least go down swinging? Swinging hard - screaming hard?
My name is Jay, and I don’t approve of any of this shit.
Feingold has something to tell us this Monday? What’s the source?
Red Head You are to DAMM easy on these PRICKS!
I don’t know if it’s just me, but my hackles are all the way up. I am really, really pissed.
One thing that the morons who pretend to be our journalists have no doubt forgotten is that one shade of color change on our alert status basically means martial law. Of course, this administration would never misuse such powers. If they did, we’d see a huge outcry from all the other institutions in this country that uphold freedom and democracy, just like the outcry we’re seeing over torture. Oh, wait.
I hope to God I’m wrong about all this, but the chances of survival for American freedom and democracy seem very fragile to me right now. I’ll be out there on Oct 5, but what else can we do to say, “hell no, we won’t take this any more”?
Perhaps Feingold is planning a democrat walkout of congress?
Just what exactly does a fucking “winner” look like to these people? I can’t remember seeing one in the last six years. Has anybody else seen a Democratic winner in D.C. lately?
Sorry, Harry Reid, if protecting human dignity doesn’t sound like enough of a fucking softball for you. Maybe you should be working the ring toss at a county fair if you need things stacked that far in your favor. We need people in D.C. who will fight for the Constitution, even if it means they have to take a cush lobbying job in a couple years.
The problem I have with the “Joe Stalin Torture and Gulag” (JSTG) bill is not what Rove was doing, but what the Dems didn’t do.
I understand what Rove was trying to do, but not only does he get the bill and the issue for Nov., but the Dems just get to look weak while praising the Regressives. I don’t how this could have come out worse:
> We will soon be a torture state
> The Dems look weak
> Regressives look strong to stand up to Bush
I am really not sure I should show up for the Dems if they could not show up for this fight.
Sorry, but that’s the way I feel today. I may get over it, but I am not sure.
should we consider a sit in at senator reid’s office?
i could go down to dc on monday, anyone want to join me? any dc fdl’ers willing to put me (us?) up?
or maybe that’s a stupid idea…. i’m open to suggestions… but sitting on my ass isn’t an option.
Where’s V (for Vendetta) when we need him.
Jane, quit wasting your time on the Democrats hoping they’re more principled.
Nader’s been right all along that the Reps and Dems are just one party in reality.
They’re nothing to pin the long term hopes on.
I am beyond disgusted. The Democrats did not stand up for PISSING ON THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS. That should have been a no-brainer. Where, exactly, is the line for these fools?
I’ve pointed this out before, but the freakin’ Geneva Conventions were ratified UNANIMOUSLY by the Senate in 1949. Memo to Harry Reid: You aren’t going way out on a limb to express support for something that EVERY senator, right after WWII, voted for. Bush’s grandfather voted for it. Joe McCarthy voted for it. To oppose it or tinker with it OR STAND BY AND WATCH IT GET TINKERED WITH now is to go to a far-right CrazyLand even Joe McCarthy would not enter. Senator Reid, it’s ok to be to the left of McCarthy. Why aren’t the Democrats pointing out 1) it was passed unanimously by post-war generation. Vague stuff doesn’t pass unanimously. 2) Bush’s grandfather was right to vote for it. Bush is wrong to oppose it. The Republican Congress has lost its principles.
This is the perfect issue to point out the difference between the GOP of today and the GOP of yore. It is the perfect wedge to make not-so-extreme Republicans and libertarian Republicans uncomfortable. Fight, you damned fools, FIGHT!
Thanks Selise @ 160.
I was just about to post it myself. I had copied it in different form earlier in the day so I could send it to my Senator.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
Thank you, thank you, thank you Christy!
Was going to throw a verbal punch at that “told you so” maroon, but cluelessness is not generally amenable to fact.
That said, I wish to respond to Jane’s plea:
I, like probably many, have been struggling with the shock of this latest continuing descent into Repug
realitymadness.Many have already commented about our Democratic representatives with the normal “how could they?” bewilderment and outrage.
It seems very clear that these “Democrats representatives” can and indeed, will continue to follow their agreed upon strategy of trying to “run out the clock”, while the Repugs will continue their own strategy of “trying to score”.
Whether this “agreed upon Democratic strategy” is explicit or implied seems to be neither here nor there.
In either case, we weren’t consulted, nor it seems is our opinion now sought.
I cannot critize those who would contact these “Democratice representatives” with their righteous anger and disgust, since doing nothing, accomplishes nothing.
But I, myself, am regretfully coming to the conclusion that we with our plaintive cries of “wake up, wake up” have not their ear nor their attention.
At this late stage, I am of the belief that these “Democratic representatives” will only wake from their catatonia by threats.
What is most depressing is that I don’t know of any “viable” threat to use on these Rip Van Winkles.
They are desperately trying to avoid “losing” by using The Grand Plan of “inaction”.
You know, kinda like the way rabbits will freeze absolutely still in hopes that the big, bad wolf won’t see ‘em, and eat ‘em.
If many interpret my rant as doom and gloom, “woe is us” despondency, I’ll close on a seemingly schizoid note of optimism:
Repugs, listen up! Rapture ain’t coming, your 1,000 year Reich ain’t coming, and whatever mess you make of this country, of this world, eventually the folks who are good, decent and wise, be they Chinese, Muslim, or heaven forbid, Americans, they will clean up your mess and relegate you to the dustbin of history.
Jeebus, that was cathartic! And I feel so much better now. *g*
CNN discussing torture right now - 63% of americans support upholding international agreements
Of course, torture assumes that the supposed “end” (information even if wrong) is worth the means … going along with this bs is the same sort of equation - going along with the means (support of torture) to gain the “end” or election (which may be as false as info given under torture)
Steve @ 146
I had forgotten about this letter from Congressman Bill Hefner until now
Eric @
58
(delurking for the first time)
Jane is right, this is more important than being a winner, but I think it’s still possible to pull this one out. I think this isn’t such a bad position…. IF they filibuster it. They can come out and say they trusted McCain et al to do the right thing but the outcome is unacceptable to any decent human being. Then they can go into detail for a week. Clarify my ass! Republicans=Torture. Send the democrats in congress home to campaign with some hard hitting soundbites, and the republicans with some questions to answer.
And they should never fall into the trap of referring or responding to it as the “Republican Compromise”- sounds too civil. Digby likes “the Mengele Act”, but “Americans for Torture Act” or something along that line sounds good too.
It’s so incredibly sad, it’s gotten to the point where you really do have to stand up and say “NO, war is NOT peace”.
I have cognitive dissonance fatigue.
#187 Alex,
What, are there two Alex’s here?
I guess we will have to fix that.
I’ll work on something different.
angie @
174
you’re so right, angie. Never met an executioner, but I’ve talked to people who have. That might not be so true about personalities who torture, though. Too much anecdotal and authoritative information about such people out there.
When I worked as an administrator in corrections, I had to send hundreds of people back to prison, but helped rehabilitate thousands. They were BOTH part of my job. I also had to hire scores of people and fired dozens. I looked for people who realized both aspects of the job were as important - effective discipline and humane rehabilitation.
Creepy, control freaks and worse are attracted toward work in corrections. Weeding them out gave me as much satisfaction as seeing a criminal successfully picking up the debris of his or her life and beginning to function again.
A lot of people with personalities like Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, etc. didn’t make it through my interviews and background checks. But I can say for sure, I fired dozens of better people than those three dickheads!
Alex @ 186
1. sorry, when it comes to political action i’m nonviolent (of the gandhian type) all the way.
2. jane’s not wasting her time. in the end, it’s not their principles that matter (although they should), it’s their actions. we have to make it in their best interest to do what’s right.
3. bullshit. just because there’s not enough of a difference doesn’t mean there is no difference. tell me, where in the R party is the feingold, the gore, the conyers, the kucinich? i call bullshit.
helina handbasket @ 145
Hello? Shouldn’t there be a fight for who gets to lead the charge against torture or immunity for those who have ordered and conducted it? From both sides of the isle, I just don’t get it, but it’s time to attack!
Jane, You’re correct about the iconographic characteristics of that photo. Like a few other things, names the footage of planes crashing into the twin towers, I can’t bring myself to look at it anymore. The horror is so much it slips into the realm of the unreal. But the horror is not simply from a scary image but the fact that the absoprtion of this information through a mediated experience (ie: reading, television, etc) can trick the brain into categorizing it as something “other”. That is, something ‘out there’ that isn’t terribly real to the peson with the mediated experience.
It reminds me of this graffiti I read about from paris, 1968: “This Is Really Happening!”
Alex @ 186
This crap has to stop…..
Polls say that the Dem base is energised and working for candidates. ReThug turnout is low and a lot of their base is just staying home.
Besides their usual suppress the Dem vote….this is whole thing is getting all of the progressives bummed out and disgusted with the current crop of Dems so that they say home.
Besides the voting machines… How do they suppress the vote and keep in power?
By having LOW voter turnout.
If we turned out in MASS and stayed at the polls until every VOTE is counted instead of heading home and watching some reality show…
Ya know…. they are still camped out in Mexico City demanding a revote….. They are NOT giving up…. THAT is how we all loose!
A revised rant about detention centers, and my recommendations for public office, available at my humble blog.
Comments welcome.
Wish we could revise here more than 5 minutes but other than that everything is great! Thanks fdl for the opportunity to share our thoughts with many thousands of concerned citizens…and the deeply worried world.
Holyfuckinhell:
Cleter at 3:35’s got it nailed. I’m gonna just shut up - ’cause she(?) has it nailed.
I’M DISGUSTED, TOO!
So I can feel cleaner than thinking about Reid and Levin, I’m going to scrub out the cat boxes, grab a couple of trash barrels full of fish ofal and take it all to the dump. Smelling the air there will clean my mind of Bush and his enablers.
selise @ 196
Right on. The answer is to get rid of the chickenshits around them, undermining them when the stakes are the highest.
Torture is wrong and un-American. Eliminating habeas corpus is wrong and un-American. If you aren’t fighting for them, you are either a coward, an un-American sadist or you are just insane for not knowing the difference between right and wrong.
We need to get the insane, the cowardly and the sadistic losers out of D.C. and replace them with people like Ned Lamont.
In case anyone missed this …
angie @
13
Just wait - Mr. Dictator will be torching Americans next - war protestors and whistleblowers. The Crusade has just begun with him.
I won’t send the democrats a dime - none of them have any balls, but Waxman and Conyers.
I am as sick as Jane. I can’t believe that there is no politician in this country principled enough to stand up and say, “We shouldn’t torture people,” even if he or she risks getting voted out of office for doing so. This country reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal) frog that can’t sense a gradual increase in temperature and so remains in a pot of water as the pot is slowly heated until it eventually burns to death.
This strikes me as naive and short sighted. It is exactly what people, and unfortunately many friends of mine, were saying in 2000. Then it was that there was no difference between Bush and Gore. To anyone paying attention to events since, that just seems dimwitted. I am aware of the flaws and missteps of the Democrats. I have quietly cheered on TRex with his ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. That is what we need. To get motion you have to push. Waiting for people to do the right thing does not work. People need support and input to do the right thing.
Alex @ 186
ET– you never cease to amaze me– I had no idea you worked in corrections.
that is a crucial point!
Soldiers and others need and want rules and the ones we had prior to bushco were good enough. Yeah, some broke them (My Lai) but most didn’t. War is ugly, war is cruel, but by God there is a reason we signed the Geneva Conventions and Clinton signed the 1996 War Crimes Act. These goons sent soldiers out there hating and believing that all those brown people did 9/11 and anything goes. To this day, our government reaffirms that.
Beyond disgusting.
PS LOL ET @ 202! Breathe in a lungful or two for me, will you?
If we had a draft with no exceptions and no deferments, would this be happening?
Who wants their daughter or son to come home having been tortured?
We must still think “it can’t happen to us.”
Marion in Savannah @ 92
Several of us have the originals, to show the survivors and historians of the future.
Yep, good old Department of Homeland Insecurity, ICE, Immigration Customs Enforcement. They call it ENDGAME.
Read and weep.
Think it can’t happen here? Read it. Better yet, print it out. THEY ARE WORKING HARD TO TAKE THIS DOWN FROM THE INTERNET. Get a paper copy NOW.
Torture also violates the bystander. It corrupts all who participate but it is also directed at the bystander who feels helpless and horrified. Torture is terror. Don’t go there. Fight back. This is our country, not the torturers, terrorists, participants, and cowards. Do. not. be. terrorized. Fight.
And on a happier note, congratulations fdl for 19,000,000 site visitors!
spotlighted this with this rant:
I’m so p*ssed off at this bill that there’s steam coming out of my ears.
I want explanations from our Senators as to why they can’t speak up loudly and clearly against legalizing torture (euphemisms be d*mnd, it’s clearly torture that is being legalized). I’d like to know why the major news media haven’t spoken up about the road that this administration is taking us down, which is leading us straight to the pits of Hell, as demonstrated by Nazi Germany. I want to know why they think that it’s fine to legislate away the protections we made part of our laws when we signed the Geneva Conventions.
Torture is a war crime; those who torture, those who seek to make it legal, those who assent to such a legalization, all are liable for that crime. I believe that those who torture, those who seek to make it legal, those who assent to such a legalization, should be arrested and tried for that crime.
Bush claims that Article 3 of the Geneva Convention is unclear. Funny, it wasn’t unclear before he became President. It was clear for Nixon, it was clear for Reagan, and it was clear for Bush, his father. It’s been clear for all of the people in this country since 1945. Any problem he has with it is clearly his personal problem, and doesn’t need to be addressed with legislation, but with a teacher and a lawyer to explain it in the small words that he seems to need.
Bush says that those of us who grew up in the 50s and 60s don’t understand the danger this country is in. I don’t know when he thinks he was growing up, and I don’t know where he grew up, but we lived through the worst parts of the Cold War, when we knew for a fact that we could be turned into a parking lot, without *any* of the laws that Bush claims he needs to protect us from all the terrorists out there (most of whom are out for revenge for what *his policies* have done).
We were not afraid then, and we were especially not afraid of what our own government might do to us - and a lot of us are now living with that fear, bcause we have a President who wants to be King, and not a
constitutional monarch like that George we faced in 1776, but an absolute ruler with the power of life, death and disappearance over *every single one of us*.
And that, *that*, is the greatest danger we face: the overthrow of our government from within its own halls by its own officers. We as citizens, as the power by which government is created, as the employers of all of the people in government, need to hold them responsible for their acts.
[/rant]
I get mad and get a muse wandering past … must be the Celts on my tree (hi, egregious!).
Jane, my wife and I have been disgusted for a very long time, and I am afraid I have fallen silent lately. I look at the news with disbelief and just shake my head. Each day I think I have seen the worst of it, and the next day there is something that tops the day before.
But, I keep thinking of ways to completely blindside the Rove machine. Something so out of their frame of reference that they are defensless. Help me out here. What kinds of things can we dream up that will overwhelm and blindside these … things?
A bit OT, but there’s a post over at IntelDump that is very good. Be sure to read the comments!
You can find it here.
It would seem that facts have a liberal bias:)
R.I.P. My Childhood Civics Class Image of America
I am beside myself with horror and outrage. Last Monday I faxed hand-written letters to Clinton, Schumer & Reid. What world are they living in? So called “senior statesmen (women)” have spoken out against this, but why are they unwilling to lead the charge in opposition? Is it undignified? Are they retired form being Americans?
Where to now?
How has Torture become acceptable in American society?
How has it been ok to use these techniques to obtain information?
The militarization of America started increasingly after the Vietnam war. It started with TV shows, movies, toys, games, video games… You see Stephen Segal & Van Dam ripping body parts off and Dirty Harry making it all acceptable.
We now have a whole crop of young kids who are and have grown up with violent video games and find it all acceptable…… That is why so many people are not as disgusted as we are.
This is very important. But I don’t know what is a winner or not because I don’t know what people find important in their own lives. I think people who would be presented with the issue stand alone would probably reject torture as any kind of national policy, especially if they knew any of the ugly details and how ineffectual and impractical it is.
But as a practical matter, I wonder if trying to flog this one particular issue is more important than whether we should “stay the course in Iraq”, privatize Social Securoty, letting the tax breaks expire or other issues. The public has more than enough reasons to throw this bunch of bozos out or even to prosecute them for “high crimes and misdemeanors” as well as war crimes. Highlighting this evil deal only underscores what most people know about this rotten and corrupt government. On the other hand, if they choose to support this evil while it is public knowledge, they are already lost.
jayt @
201
Thanks Jayt. FWIW, I’m a “he”
Here’s your talking points, Harry. Free of charge:
1) GC was passed unanimously by post-war generation. Vague stuff doesn’t pass unanimously. Bush is wrong about it being too vague. 2) Bush’s grandfather was right to vote for it. Bush is wrong to oppose it. The Republican Congress has lost its principles.
3) The GC has enjoyed bipartisan support for generations. It is the settled law of the land. Ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
4) (Not mine, got it from digby) What specific procedures did you have in mind, Mr. Bush? If you want specificity, well, be specific. Bring specific procedures up for an up-or-down vote. Waterboarding, yea or nay. Yanking out fingernails, yea or nay. Make every goddamned senator have to STAND UP and say YES or NO to every goddamned specific torture procedure. Then we’ll no who the fascists are and can vote accordingly in November.
Bush makes Atilla the Hun look good.
Yes is my answer to your question Jane.
These people actually have the balls to call
themselves “Compassionate Conservatives”
I too, don’t recognize my country anymore~
3..@211 I read the Endgame docs several months ago and the thing that stuck in my memory was the breathless enthusiasm, in the introduction, at the prospect of incarceration and deportation of 11 million people. The whole tone of the project reminded me of the notes from the Wannsee conference and the enthusiasm to make Europe Judenfrei.
We are completely lost in the wilderness, even if Dems believe that the law will be unconstitutional. In fact, especially if they believe that.
Beyond repellant, like eating shit for the promise of a later meal.
Eric at 58: if this is the best they can offer, then I am despondent.
I want America back, goddammit. I miss America. Where did it go?
john in sacramento @ 217
I had civics at Folsom High and Cordova High, the first year Cordova opened. I teach in a public high school here in the southwest. But we don’t teach civics or government. What a shame.
cleter @
188
Also, the War Crimes Act of 1996, which made violations of the Geneva Conventions (CA3) a federal crime, was a Republican bill.
Standing up for the Geneva Conventions, the principles of Nuremberg, and ten-year-old Republican legislation can’t be that controversial. Also, two-thirds of the democratic senators are not up for re-election. I don’t accept that this behavior on the part of Reid and the rest of the Democratic senators is a matter of fear or tactics. The only explanation would be that the fix is in at some level.
As a lifelong Democrat, I have grown used to disappointment and defeat over the years. But I have never been so demoralized as I am by the Democrats’ complicity in this awful charade allowing torture while pretending not to. As for the November election, in the wake of the Democrats’ scandalous silence on the torture issue - I am trying hard but not very successfully to care one way or the other. Bad as the situation is, it appears likely to get much worse. I’m quite sure Rove’s October surprise will be an attack on Iran and equally sure the Democratic response to the runup will be as inconsequential as it was on this torture issue.
I was actually feeling pretty optimistic and energized before this artfully staged kabuki played itself out.
It does not matter if this issue is a “winner” in electoral terms or not. It is a question of fundamental morality. Right and Wrong. If my party does not stand up and condemn this Evil, then it is no longer my party. Torture is wrong. It is wrong all the time. It is an Evil act, and people who condone it are condoning Evil. Condoning torture destroys any claim a person might have to being considered moral or ethical.
Nations that condone torture are evil, totalitarian regimes.
This is a bright line for me. In my belief system, condoning torture means that you have lost your immortal soul to hell.
A.Citizen @ 123
At the very top of the page, under the blue banner but before the title of the post:
About/ContactUs Home BlueAmerica
BlueAmerica is our ActBlue page. Join us!
Memo to prospective 2008 candidates:
I’m going to work my ass off for somebody in 2008*. If you don’t speak out against this insanity now, it’s going to be somebody other than you. And I’m probably not alone in this. We’re watching you.
*Assumes we still have elections in 2008.
Well, I guess they are voting for America to sanction the tactics of the terra-ists.
Of course it is important. “Our leaders” are once again showing themselves to be principle free. Even if we were to get Democrats in power, I despair that it would make any difference in the slide of this country into a half-assed imitation of the failing late Roman empire. We disgust me.
I say, “Let them eat spinach”
______
Hi Ok. Kiddo, when I worked in El Dorado Hills I used to drive over the Dam Road to get to work - not the Damn Road - the Dam Road. s2s (snickers 2 self) ;-)
I would like to see a schoolchildren’s letter writing campaign. Maybe Jimmy Carter or someone could help encourage teachers to spend a day talking about what torture is and why it is always wrong. Period. I don’t care what you see on 24.
I don’t think even thousands of “Please Stop Torturing, Mr. President” cards could shame the smirk off his disgusting, evil face. But it could make him even more toxic than ever on the campaign trail. And set the stage for reversing this later, when he is out of office and in prison.
There was a time when “priests” and “preachers” and “reverends” would be the ones to do this. Now they are mostly complicit, worthless money sucking shills I can only conclude.
How is fighting for the constitution not a good thing?
Jane–
In 1933 Germany was considered one of the most civilized, cultured nations of the world. We already know it is possible for such a nation’s soul to be destroyed in only six years.
I’m trying to avoid the conclusion that the present torture debacle is providing the history books a second measurement of how long it takes. But I’m having no success.
New thread up. Matt O.
Marion in Savannah @ 145
I’m a longtime lurker, first time poster. But I read this and thought Amen! And I’m not religious … just really fed up!!
This is exactly the wrong time to allow discouragement over the phony compromise enabling torture to overcome us or to distract us from November. I suggest we take stock and count our weapons (and they are formidible):
1. We now have a National Intelligence Estimate, and the NYT story on it, that supports a key progressive belief and confirms what many Americans are secretly fearing: In addition to totally screwing up Iraq (which we already knew) the invasion and occupation of Iraq have increased support for terrorism and made the country/world less safe. That messsage needs to be spotlighted over and over to the media and the country through the progressive blogs.
2. The country now supports, but a growing majority, the progressive view that the Iraq war invasion/occupation was a strategic blunder. We are winning the argument that “staying the course,” which can be hung around Bush and the Republicans and used-to-be Dems like Lieberman, will not turn things around; it will likley make things worse. See point 1. Message to America: Bush will not change course unless he faces an angry, skeptical opposition party in Congress.
3. It is becoming increasing clear that the Bush Administration, led by Dick Cheney and his neocon extremists are leading us directly into another war — against Iran — and this one is even less winnable and more dangerous to US interests than the war in Iraq. That war will seriously endanger American troops in Iraq, destabilize the entire Middle East, and invite attacks on US interest in many other countries. The only way to prevent this is to remove from office as many Republicans in Congress so that an opposition party can stop a runnaway executive.
4. The Bush policies — see 1, 2, and 3 — have a direct negative impact on the security of Israel. The Bush policies are making Israel less safe. Protecting Israel requires reversing Bush’s warmongering and returning to a pursuit of Israeli/Palistians peace efforts. Israel is less secure now that it has been in decades.
5. The Bush Administration is destroying the US military through the wrong policies, unnecessary wars, inept leadership, underfunding, overextention, war profiteering, and outright lying about these realities. Bush and Rumsfeld are ignoring military advice. See Murtha and 28 generals.
6. To hide its inept policies and its failed leadership with respect to reducing the threat of terrorism, the Bush Adminnistration pretends to be engaging in a war on terror, but it is in fact a war on American values; it is a war on the US constitution and American’s image abroad. They have violated the Constitution, statutes, treaties, Geneva Conventions, War Crimes Statutes and in the process shamed us and damaged the image of the US in every nation. They want to have more Abu Graibs, use the CIA to hide them, and prevent the courts from stopping them or determining who is really a threat and who is simply innnocent and imprisoned by mistake. Destroying American values is a strong campaign issue for defeating Republicans. Standing up for the rule of law, instead of engaging in the rule of terrorism, is the “strong,” national security position. We need make no apologies on this.
Given all of this, what should we say about the compromise bill allowing torture, eliminating court oversight over illegal imprisonment and excusing war crimes? We — the progressive blogs — should say, over and over, that this bill is simply one more outrage among an endless stream of outrages inflicted on this country by the Bush Administration and the Republican Party. Decades from now, Americans will look back in horror and wonder how any generation could possibly have tolerated such lawless and immmoral behavior. Should we fight this bill. Hell, yes! Pressure Congress? Of course.
That’s what I think we should be saying every day from now to November. Some Democrats will support us; others will not. Keeps score for after the elections. We’ll have plenty to do after we take back Congress.
But we dont’ stop saying these messages just because some Democrates don’t get it, or just because the leadership won’t lead.
We say it because its the best strategy for November.
We say it because it’s our best chance of getting the Democratic party to stand up and to define itself in terms we can support.
And we say it because we know it’s right, it’s just and to be silent is not acceptable.
I will never give my vote to any dem, green, blue or whatever candidate who doesn’t come out forcefully against torture. This is my fundamental issue, my barometer, for whoever is representing me. I am disgusted and this will not stand. That’s it… I’m done.
katymine @ 199
agreed.
we can’t fix what they’ve done to our country unless we can get the opposition party into power. Like it or not, this is a two-party, winner take all system.
We can be enraged and powerless or we can be smart and get elected.
To quote Markos: “Republicans can’t govern and Democrats can’t get elected.”
Here is a snippet from James McMurtry’s tune, “We Can’t Make it Here Anymore.”
What’s John Kerry have to say on the subject? I understand that if those swiftboaters come after him again he’s going to kick their asses! And I hear he might run again in ‘08. Oh, brother.
I wish I didn’t have to go, but I think it’s finally time to pack my bags.
Bravo, scarecrow at 241!
Bravo.
beth meacham @ 230
Nations that condone torture are evil, totalitarian regimes.
This is a bright line for me. In my belief system, condoning torture means that you have lost your immortal soul to hell.
If a politician is not against torture, they’re for it. And McCain is a triangulating, craven son of a bitch. Here is the best way to get reliable information from a person, prisoner or free: feed them, get them high, and get them laid. Anybody who tries to tell you differently is full of shit.
Full disclosure: I was in prison in Yugoslavia. I was not tortured, but the environment condoned torture, and it happened routinely. If you condone torture, you will attract people who enjoy it. And it won’t stop there. A few years later, within 10 kilometers of that prison they shot 40,000 men, women, and children and buried them in mass graves.
This is a black, black day for our country and for us as people. People that you know and love are going to be hurt and killed because of this, and the next person who tells me “we need to torture people to remain safe” is going to be missing their front teeth. I can’t be polite anymore.
MarcLord - thank you.
Siun @ 248
I’ll echo that.
If I might amplify scarecrow’s point just a little:
Having a set of dithering, gridlocking, foolish, irresolute, corporate-bought Dems preventing absolutely anything at all from being accomplished over the next two years would be a stupendous improvement over the last six.
Wayne Harris @
229
Afterthought: The Dems should have used Bush’s insistence on torture as further evidence of his astounding incompetence. Something like: “Torture not only endangers our troops and operatives - there is no credible evidence that it works. This is the President who told you there were WMDs in Iraq; who insinuated Saddam was personally involved in the 9/11/; who assured you Iraqis would greet us as liberators; who said the the war would be over in six months; who promised the war would be self-financing with oil revenues; who said the mission was accomplished; and who said Brownie was doing a heck of a job as FEMA did nothing while the death toll mounted in New Orleans. Now he’s telling you he needs to trash the U.S. Constitution, spy on you without a warrant and torture whom he pleases (you maybe?) to make you safe. Why the hell should you believe him?”
Welcome JackieBlue, please comment often!
Today Rosh Hashanah is being celebrated.
Today Ramadan is being observed.
Today America is forgetting herself, and those that really love her (all over the world) are mourning.
One way to advertise this, I suppose, is to simply refer to any official, President on down, who’s in favor of this as “President Pinochet,” “yes, of course, Sen. Pinochet,” etc.
They won’t get the message completely, but, at least, they’ll know we know.
Hi siun,
thank you for having your gentle soul. The only thing you would probably torture anyone with is too much food. ;-)
angie @ 1
Just getting here, but I am disgusted as well. I can’t understand this at all. Has America lost it’s mind and soul? I imagine this is what it was like during the red scare of the 50’s.
I don’t know how to “play it” or whatever, but the angel’s are crying today - humanity took a big hit.
If the Dems want Congress, If the Dems want the Senate, If the Dems don’t want to be labled as “soft”, Then I have a very effective way of dealing with this….A way to win the fight……
All of the pictures from Abu Grahib, should be blown up to 3′x4′ and placed, one each, at the chair of the desks of each and every Democratic Congress person and Senator on the floors of their respective houses before the votes on these bills take place, and every single Democrat should then walk out of congress out onto the steps to give a press conference as to what the Republicans are doing to the Legacies of G. Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and each and every American’s name that is engraved posthumously on every single war memorial and gravestone in the United States of America.
Every single Rethug should have to look at what it is they are legalizing as they vote.
Every single Voter should have to see what these animals are legalizing in their names.
This has been treated much too “cerebaly” by the press and those in power. A picture speaks a thousand words. These words need to be spoken in congress in the form of huge pictures of the victims of Abu Grahib mounted on 3′x4′ foamcore boards sitting in the places where all of the Democrats that are currently in congress would be sitting if the system was still based on the Constitution and not the corrupt money of the Military Industrial Complex’s Bribes in the form of LEGAL Campaign Contributions.
How can any one spin Abu Grahib as being “just” and deserving of Amnesty if they are looking right at it?
I just noticed an Amnesty International ad on another site:
President Bush struck a deal with the Senate.
The Geneva Conventions and human rights lost.
Please, with all the urgency available, call Congress now.
Call 1 800 AMNESTY to be connected to your Senator.
Tell them to vote against this and any proposals that would weaken the Geneva Conventions.
Sounds like I know what I’m doing tomorrow morning!
Professor Foland @ 250
yep.
Hi and welcome Elastigrrrl! Hope you will come back and give us your opinions often.
For me also this moment touches a moral absolute– “He that toucheth pitch shall be defiled therewith.” I will let a forty year commitment to the Democratic Party go rather than play games about holding one’s nose for the possibility of winning an election to revisit one’s morality later.
Right on all new commenters, Lobster/Bill-prayers for you. MarcLord godbless you and everyone else. Thanks to all for your fighting words. Many of you have been quite eloquent (I won’t name names lest I leave anyone out) and I will borrow heavily as I prepare for a busy day of activism tomorrow. I am so grateful for this community. Thanks to Christy and Jane and Jane and Christy again and again for this corner of sanity and outrage……
Scarecrow at 214
But we dont’ stop saying these messages just because some Democrates don’t get it, or just because the leadership won’t lead.We say it because its the best strategy for November.
We say it because it’s our best chance of getting the Democratic party to stand up and to define itself in terms we can support.
And we say it because we know it’s right, it’s just and to be silent is not acceptable.
Thank you so much for the above. We know there are huge problems with the Democratic leadership in Congress - actually, the whole Dem establishment. Reid & Levin’s position on this issue is disgusting. Their treatment of the grassroots and candidates like Lamont has been appalling. The only way we can start to change this is to get different representation in the Senate and House.
What if this, this torture, IS our country and we just never knew it before as citizens… I am thinking about our history with the Indians, the slaves, the socialists/communists before and during the Woodrow Wilson era when they were rounded up and held in prisons without trials; not to NOT mention the lynchings and typical police interrogations throughout our history before the Warren Court tried to mitigate the rubber and not-so-rubber truncheons, etc. What if we believed in the myth or ideal of what our Country should have been (all along) but actually never was? I know that John McCain was imprisoned and tortured by “the enemy” during the Vietnam war, but what did we do with our Viet Cong prisoners there and did they even survive captivity to be freed at all when we lost and left? Weren’t they bound by the hands and pushed out of our own helicopters by our own troops into the Mekong river or summarily shot in the streets with our approval by our South Vietnam ally like that other iconic photo from that hideous war… and what about John Negroponte’s directing torture and terrorist war on “soft targets” by the Contras in Central America?� After reading Chomsky, I’m thinking what (previously) would have been impossible… What if we as a country were never what we have always been told we were and wanted so much to believe we were: fair, honest, and just, a country thoroughly abhorring torture and that what our Congress wants to approve is just U.S. business as usual, although now illegal under International Law?
scarecrow - excellent, as always.
I fear that the move toward more inhumane treatment is also meant to dampen any protest by the citizenry against future military engagements. Frankly, I don’t think it bothers them that people may fear being subject to this kind of action here in America - I think they figure that if it keeps people quiet, it’s less trouble for them to keep doing whatever they want.
This is a very important issue. I truly don’t recognize our country anymore. What have we as a nation become when there is not so much as a peep in protest from our representatives. Until reading Ms. Smith’s earlier post today had decided not to vote this year in disgust at the democratic party. Her eloquent words have chased away the awful sense of futility; will phone my representatives on Monday and plead, literally, for sanity when this awful legislation comes up for vote. If it’s possible to gather my thoughts into coherent sentences, plan to write an op-ed to our local paper. Please excuse the rambling of this comment; it’s my first after being a long-time lurker.
Just Asking @ 264.
*sob*
siameselover– welcome and we will fight, all of us.
siameselover—welcome to FDL and hope to hear from you a lot!
Jane and Christy,
If you see this, please surface the 1-800-Amnesty ad, the one siun pointed out at 258.
I haven’t read the comments here, but, yes, I’m thoroughly disgusted. In fact, I’m just blown away. This is a moral issue. I cannot support anyone in Washington who thinks that “a little” torture is better than a lot of torture. Torture is torture. Our Democratic leaders should have the balls to stand up and say that.
((((((Lobster Bill))))))
Just Asking @ 264
I believe a lot of nasty ugly hideous stuff has been done by Americans in our 230 year history. But it seems we’ve reached a new low where we are codifying it and spinning it to be acceptible. We can’t find the truth any more. And now we’re lying to ourselves. Americans today believe making the world safe for Wal-Mart is more important than the Constitution and non-totalitarian government. Nobody reads “Darkness at Noon” any more.
Our leaders are lying to us and we are lying to ourselves.
If the Repubs have all the power for two more years, it will continue to worsen. America is circling the drain, and if we have to participate in political gamesmanship until Nov. 7, then I, for one, can do it.
siameselover @ 266
If you don’t vote, we have no hope.
lina @ 273
not exactly true (although i don’t recommend not voting).
women didn’t win the vote by voting.
slavery didn’t end by voting.
the successes of the civil rights movement were not achived by voting.
we do have power that goes way beyond the vote. we just have to figure out how to use it.
i think this is an important point… even if someone decides not to vote - that does not equate to dropping out of the struggle … there are many ways to resist that go beyond electoral politics and into the politics of social movements.
i only make this point because i don’t want to see anyone drop out because they don’t like their electoral choices or they think their vote won’t be counted.
so, i’m voting… but that’s not all i’m doing…. and i suspect the nonvoting activities are the more important of the two. but we are in desparate straights…. and need to do everything we can think of…
Anne @ 265
Yes. Apparently one of the tools of oppression will be microwaving protesters - which apparently is excrutiatingly painful.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/7/3512/39446
If we outlaw torture (or merely legally abide by Article III of the Geneva Conventions which our country signed), there will still be torture. And plenty of it. You’re not taking it out of the “toolkit,” you’re just making it a war crime. So it’s a judgement call by a commander or their charges…they can do it if they feel they must, always have done so and always will. But with the GC, they’ve had to face consequences beyond the war if they get caught. That has served to de-escalate bad treatment of prisoners by signatories, as per intent, and has provided a legal basis for enforcement.
Only people with a deathwish openly set torture as policy, or worse yet, write it into law.
MarcLord @ 276
or people waiting for The Rapture?
When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won – there have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall
- Ghandi
Yeah I am FUCKING DISGUSTED. This is NOT my country. Here is the letter I wrote to my local daily:
George Bush has commandeered the 2006 elections. And as perhaps he would like to believe, he has brought clarity. Given his push for his pro-torture policies it has become clear that this election can be crystalized into a single sentence.
Do you agree that the United States of America should make torture a national policy?
The fine print which President Bush would not encourage you to read includes such side-effects as:
- International agreements like the Geneva Conventions exist to which the United States is a signatory that prohibit torture in it various manifestations and euphemisms (i.e. “Enhanced interrogation techinques”). Indeed the United States was instrumental in their passage.
- As duly ratified treaties the United States holds such conventions as law of the land.
That’s the nice part. But a more important side effect is:
- If you don’t play by the rules you can’t complain when others break the rules over your soldiers bodies. Who would uphold the claim of the United States against another state - say just to name one Iran - should your son be water-boarded, kept naked in a refrigerated room and doused with cold water for days, forced to stand in awkwards positions for 40 hours at a time while chained to the floor?
Seemingly out of the blue George Bush has decided that this election should be about his being free to torture whoever he wants in the future or those he has tortured in the past and that he can hold whoever he wants in isolation away from the courts, international inspectors, legal procedure, due process. He says it is aimed at terrorists but has George Bush defined where the boundaries are? What safeguards does he propose to ensure that lawful citizens are protected? I know President Bush thinks an awful lot of himself but is his word enough for you? This is the man who famously said that he doesn’t do nuance. I know that I would like a little more assurance.
I admit, I don’t worry particularly about the terrorists in all this. They will burn in hell. That’s ok by me. And I know that George Bush worries about them alot. But you see, the bad guys know how to take care of themselves. It’s the good guys that get caught up in runaway government programs that I worry about.
The Constitution wasn’t written to protect the bad guys. It was written to protect the good guys.
Now, George Bush is saying that his word is good enough to torture or even disappear someone even a citizen despite what the Constitution says. Is that good enough for you?
George Bush has greatly simplified this election. You can deicide on a candidate by asking a single question. It’s even simpler than a flat tax. Just ask anyone running for office in November, whether for The Senate, The House of Representatives, state legislator. clerk of courts, all the way down the line:
Do you think George Bush should be allowed to torture you if he wants?
You should of course vote for whoever answers that question to your liking.
Oh Dab, that’s so awful. I remember hearing about the microwave mob control technology last spring, but it’s been buried like so much by the cascade of alarming news that reaches my mind on a daily basis. I truly believe that it is going to take civil disobedience on a massive level to bring about any kind of change in this country. I pray that this can be peacefully achieved, but law enforcement has seemed to prefer to respond to peaceful gatherings of concerned citizens with a language of violence actions. Chilling, isn’t it?
Jane,since you asked,yes I will be phoning senators on Monday.Leaving the definition of torture up to Bush is just beyond madness.WTF?
Whatever Reid and Levin have said,they must now come out clearly to unmask the fraud that this “compromise” represents.Americans abhor
torture.It can’t be that hard to explain!
Torture unleashed and unavailable to the courts? Never! We have no choice but to speak out.Our real leaders will too.
lina @ 277
or people trying to cause The Rapture!
Mad Dogs @ 282
you can’t jump start The Rapture. God doesn’t like cheaters.
I know I’m way late to this thread, but been on the road.
Words fail me at this point. But the words of Martin Luther King, jr. are always good ones:
Not much more need be added to that.
Irishamerican @ 257
Yes, we should pursue a concerted action along these lines, placards on the street corners, pictures outside their office doors along with some nice religious quotes, and jam their FAX machines with the images.
And Marion in Savannah — Thanks for the inspiring play lines.
RevDeb @ 284
that’s about it. Thanks, RevDeb.
Let America live MLK’s dream again.
JML @ 285
I would recommend a press event on the steps of the Capitol featuring the Canadian that was rendered to Syria, tortured, and later released. Let him tell his whole story with the cameras rolling.
Amen, Rev.Deb.
If there’s going to be a Rapture, please, God, take the neocons and the christianists and the wannabe-torturers first. The rest of us will be happy to wait.
I think I’m going to get a will made up and ready to go. This must be how the Declaration signers felt in 1776: frustrated, wound up and ready to explode, and very much aware of what might happen to them.
Sorry, been away most of the day — and maybe it was a good thing, ’cause this would have spoiled any work I was doing earlier.
I am going to be on this with Levin’s local office ASAP on Monday morning. I cannot believe Levin did this, completely disgusting that he’s given these three dorks so much cover. But he can make it up to me and to you if he agrees to take appropriate action.
Check out the Poison Pill diary at DailyKos; we can try get an amendment added to HR 5122, the appropriations bill for military expenditures for 2007. They could try to kill the amendment, but if it’s worded carefully even neo-cons can’t touch it.
And Levin could work with his brother Sander to get this slipped into 5122.
lina @ 283
Oh oh…I think somebody forgot to tell Junya. We’re in biiiggg twouble now!
I was nervous about how the Democrats would respond on this, but the response is far worse than I had dreamed. As I understand the bill torture is now defined in America as killing, raping and leaving obvious physical wounds and more or less anything else is permissible, indeed legal (according to U.S, though of course not international law). And as near as I can make out this new reality has all-party agreement.
The only difference the McCain et al protest made was that the U.S. Senate will not explicitly and publically unilaterally rewrite the Geneva Conventions.
Torture short of rape and murder is still ‘illegal’ but those tortured have no standing in U.S. courts and the torture is no longer defined as a war crime (retroactively to 1997).
I am a dual citizen living in Canada and I think I am going to have a very hard time getting myself to again cross that border I have crossed hundreds of times.
Mad Dogs & lina @291,
Kevin Philips, the guy who wrote American Theocracy, agrees with you. Yes, they are trying to jump-start the Rapture. Only Christ himself says that he will come “as a thief in the night.” Thieves who break into your house at night aren’t nice people, and I think the Believers are about to get a rude awakening. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Meek. Remind you of any eco-friendly tree-huggers you’ve met?
Robert Paehlke @292
Did you get Canadian citizenship? Any information on it would be duly appreciated. If you’re willing to share online, feel free. If not please email me any pointers at marcjlord *at* yahoo %dot% com.
Robert Paehlke @292
I think that your final comment has yet to penetrate the brains of most of the government or the average trusting American. We will be pariahs not only for tourism but all other things as well. We will be snickered about for the money we have and shunned for our behavior when all of that money is gone.
pity.
No beacon of hope, freedom and the American dream at all.
anyone in DC that supports torture in any form should be rounded up and put on trial for crimes against humanity. 10-25 years.
or else tarred and feathered and run out of town
I don’t give a damn what US law says or is going to say, or what mccain and bush and these other traitors say, the Geneva conventions exactly as is trumps everything. Geneva rules!
shame on the US senate. all of them. I expect this kind of ‘expletive’ thing from the neo-con Reptiles (they are truly barbarians) and their asskissing lackeys in the rePUKElican party but I really don’t expect it from the demoRatic leadership nor the membership of any humane political party. this is beyond the pale.
MarcLord @
294
Marc, if you are interested in permanent residency (a prerequisite to citizenship) I can address the issue. Meanwhile, you might want to check out we move to canada.
Just left a dKos comment on this subject, with links to the details on the 121 House members who voted NOT to instruct conferees to prohibit torture as John Murtha urged back in Dec. 14, 2005. Our CA-45 rubberstamper, Mary Bono, was one of the pro-torture House members. They all should have to answer for that every single day.
Torture is about power, limitless power. It’s not about intelligence or national security, as the latest NIE makes obvious, again.
I hope to God Russ Feingold is planning to take this one on. It will be a winning issue if Democrats unite behind him in defense of our nation’s honor and heritage.
I wish Alexander Hamilton were here to kick Bush and Cheney all the way back to Texas.
First time poster, and a long time lurker.
I have just returned from work, and have tried to come up with some sort of semi-literate response to the question:
How do you feel about the United States of America being able to legally torture people?
I look at that sentence, and begin to doubt my own sanity! WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING!? NOT ONLY TO THE COUNTRY, BUT US AS A PEOPLE? AS A CIVILIZATION! I apologize for shouting and the four letter expletive, but for all the questions about the “political repercussions” if the Dems do this or the Repugs do that, this entire question boils down to one underling fact…We as a nation are attempting to make a act of EVIL legal!
Already the euphemisms are beginning to sprout…its not “torture”, no, now its “aggressive interrogation techniques”, instead of a secret police apparatus to spy on citizens we have the “Terrorist Surveillance Program”, instead of a elected head of State called the President of the United States, we have our very own version of the German word Fuhrer, now known as the “Decider”, you know the one…who after this “compromise” can now “decide” what exactly “torture” is or is not. Going back to that old Nixonian chestnut…”If the President does it, it cannot be, by definition, illegal.” (or does that chestnut actually go a little further back…say Moscow in the ’20’s or Berlin in the ’30’s?)
We as a nation are sliding into an abyss, but the slope is at such a small angle few can actually feel the downward tug.
My mother was a post WWII war bride from Germany. Growing up and going to school, reading about the growth of Totalitarian regimes in Europe during the 20’s and 30’s, I thought to myself: “How on Earth, could any people willing join such evil movements?” Yes, I heard the usual explanations about economic collapse, scapegoats etc. Yet somehow the United States of America, not only avoided the slide to violent upheaval and revolution, it maintained its democratic traditions through the Great Depression and the most violent war in the history of the world, World War II.
Yet here we are, 60 years after the Nuremberg War Trials, where we as Victors stood in judgment of the defeated German War Criminals, and said: “Attacking countries unprovoked, is in essence a Crime against Humanity! Torturing people is also a Crime against Humanity!”, and yet here we are, “debating”, “compromising”, about “aggressive interrogation techniques”. And why are we having this “debate”? Because a megalomaniacal Arab, with a few thousand followers in a criminal cartel brutally killed 3000 of our citizens.
Some have said that 9/11 was the opening salvo of the War on Terror. Little did we realize that it also was the closing shot. In one horrible morning, a ragtag group of fanatical killers managed not only to kill 3000 people, but a Republic that had lasted over 230 years.
I apologize for the length of this diatribe, but ladies and gentlemen, if we (not as liberals/progressives/conservatives/Democrats/Republicans) as a people do not stop this act from becoming “Law”, we will not deserve to be called Americans any longer.
Sincerely:
RMD
Lobster @
46
Jane you are absolutely right!
Our response should be
TORTURE DOESN’T MAKE US SAFE, IT MAKES US CRIMINALS
Period.
Is this democracy worth saving and fighting for? America has clearly become a corporate religious state where descent is becoming tantamount to treason.
Our representative are mad as hat and we are going to hell in a hand basket…
Prehaps only revolution or catastrophe can save us from the enemy… America has gone off the deep end.
What a bummer.
Thank you for the kind welcome to FDL, a wonderful place for information and a buckup for flagging spirits. Here’s an op-ed just sent to the local paper. Hopefully when Senate offices get deluged with calls calling for opposition to this bill, they will do the right thing.
AMERICA OFFICIALLY CONDONES TORTURE
If the ‘compromise’ legislation worked out between the administration and Senators John Warner, Lindsey Graham and John McCain passes in Congress, America will officially condone torture. Military and intelligence personnel have said that torture does not work, yet CIA personnel will be allowed to use such measures, as decided by the President, to gain information. Intelligence personnel have stated that they can get information without resorting to torture.
There are people in this world looking to do us harm. But this legislation will harm us as well; we will lose some of our humanity, something that no external force could ever do. There are those who point to the terrible things done by Islamic terrorists to justify use of egregious methods. We are now stooping to their level. America has always been better than that–until now.
It is ironic that the party that claims to represent morality and Christian values is now on the precipice of enshrining immoral and unchristian torture into law. What would Jesus think?
Torture is immoral, accomplishes nothing, and should be resisted by all means available. Democrats must not lay down on this issue. If they do they do not deserve to lead this country.
We must take a moral stand on this, and I think that a principled stand for what is right is actually the only way to really win.
My Congressman, Earl Blumenauer, has issued a Condemnation of Legalizing Torture and a call for an investigation. Please urge your Representative to join him in taking this stand. Here’s the link:
Condemnation of Legalizing Torture
Diamond Jim @297
Thank you, thank you.
Diamond Jim @
297
Hi Diamond Jim,
Thanks for your answer to my O, Canada question on FDL. Bookmarked Move to Canada.
As it happens, my wife lived in Park Slope on 9/11 when she was still my girlfriend. She lived very close to the Cafe Steinhoff. I was staying at her apartment on the morning of the attacks, and drove past the Towers out to AT&T Labs just before the first hit. Loved Park Slope and eventually my cat and I moved across the country into my girlfriend’s apartment. We got married in Manhattan in 2002. Like the looks of your blog, nice to meet you.
“only two choices: Doing it Bush’s way and letting terrorists go free.”
Disgustingly, this was how McCain explained the ‘compromise’ on the Today Show on Friday morning. He basically kept saying that Democrats and liberals didn’t want to interrogate prisoners and/or didn’t want any prisoners at all. He came just short of saying we wanted to release all detainees even the ones that were affiliated with Al Qaeda.
From the “Patterns of Global Terrorism 2000” report briefing on April 30, 2001″
“QUESTION: Could you comment on the statement by a CIA official not too long ago that, in fact, every time Israel tortures someone — and the torture is continuing — she creates two terrorists, one the father and the other the mother — I’m sorry, and the other the brother. Could you comment on that?
And you describe this as a disease, but aren’t you dealing only with the symptoms and not the underlying cause?
MR. HULL: I think I would direct — in terms of the first question, I think I would direct you to the Human Rights Report in which we do address the question of Israeli methods.
Quite apart from that specific instance, if you are asking what is the relationship of human rights to counterterrorism, I think there is a relationship. It is one of the reasons that when we do the training of foreign security officials in counterterrorism there is a very heavy dose of human rights training as we go through that process because you do have a problem if, in responding to terrorism, you use methods that alienate more and more of the population.
So, in principle, we acknowledge that connection and we do what we can in our training to address that issue.”
Democrats must hammer home this point; torture breeds terrorism!
I’m disgusted, disheartened, and generally really, really bummed out.
Somebody PLEASE wake me up from this nightmare!
Remember?
Remember how we need to become more “comfortable” speaking to the voters about our “faith”? To learn how to wear it on our sleeves so as to prove - to the sensitive souls who are told what to think and how to vote by their mega-church pastors - that Democrats are not the devil incarnate?
Remember?
Is speaking about treating your fellow man as you, a self-proclaimed civilized people, would wish to be treated “faithful” enough for you, Howard Dean..? Harry “No Consequences” Reid..? Chuck “Where’s The Money” Schumer..? Nancy “I Never Sleep” Pelosi..?
Is honoring and upholding a core tenet of every major world religion, proudly and publicly, speaking enough about “faith” for you to finally stop pandering and scolding your lessors in the party, Barack Obama..? Ken Salazar..? Blanche Lincoln..? Hillary Rodham Clinton..?
Or is “faith” a painless, responsibility-free, non-controversial, feel-good, do-bad talking point attached to behavior more befitting Attila the Hun, as practiced in actuality by the mega-churches and their flocks and your New Democratic Party…?
Just wondering, and watching, as our out of control government hurtles over the edge.
PostScript: The fact that Russ Feingold, Pat Leahy, Tom Harkin, Dick Durbin, and a few others have yet to be publicly heard from on a topic and a bill I know that they condemn, and condemn passionately, leads me to believe, or at least hope, that the end of this story has not yet been written.
lina @ 287
i don’t think we have the right to ask maha arar to step foot in this country again.
and he has been telling his story… not that many have been listening…
Is the idea of Congress ‘legalizing’ torture important to me? Yes.
A few ‘tea leaves’ that strike me as relevant:
In “The Coming Anarchy“, Robert Kaplan points out that the first powerful political experience of Arabs who are now in their 20s and 30s was Gulf War I, which they interpreted as a ‘defeat’ and ‘humiliation’. This should go some way toward explaining the increasing radicalization of anti-American sentiment.
Richard Clarke documents the way in which Israeli foreign policy has increasingly driven American foreign policy, particularly under the neocons. His work is supported by other well documented reports. How does legalizing torture fit with this context?
Under current law (as I understand it), GW Bush, Richard Cheney, Alberto Gonzales, and countless others are at legal risk for war crimes. They desperately need the law changed (to cover their butts retroactively). Why would the Dems enable the Bush/Cheney crowd to avoid war crimes charges?!
Every single Democratic Senator, staffer, and supporter ought to do the following: take all the photos of Abu Gharib, and then recaption them. Instead of “Iraqi prisoners” the captions should read: “American prisoners of war.” Perhaps that little mental exercise might prompt a few Senators to clearly see what’s really going on here — government sponsored, government sanctioned depravity. ONLY AFTER the Democratic Senators re-caption every single Abu Gharib photo to identify Americans as the victims, should they even consider speaking or voting on this issue.
An earlier commenter made the excellent point that the structure of the Bu$h/Cheney argument is bogus, and needs to be revealed as fraudent and erroneous. The Dems need to create an option that lies outside Rove’s tightly controlled either/or scenario.
Agree with MacLord that weirdness attracks creeps; like flies on sh*t, inflicting suffering brings out the loonies. Why on earth would the Democrats agree to terms set by people who have demonstrated that they will lie, ‘out’ CIA agents, cheat, steal, and ‘destroy’ their political opposition?
Rove (et al) think they’ve set the Dems up for a walk off yet another electoral cliff. It’s another version of Republican Swift Boating: vote to legalize torture, or we’ll claim you are weak on defense. Hitler was not ‘weak on defense.’ Mussolini was not ‘weak on defense.’ Saddam Hussein was not ‘weak on defense.’ All of them tolerated torture.
Bu$hCo and Rove have set this up so that the Republicans can appear to be ‘compromisers’ who can ‘create solutions’. The Dems need to unpeel that facade and show it for the Phyrric victory that it is — supporting torture might win an election battle, but it loses the larger war.
Here’s hoping the damn Democrats stand up on the Senate floor with photos of Abu Gharib blown up large, and a sequence of Founding Fathers photographs. Would George Washington have condoned Abu Gharib? Hell, no.
Would Abe Lincoln have voted for this crap ‘legislation’ to legalize torture? Hell, no. Would Sam Adams or Thomas Jefferson have voted for anything that Alberto Gonzales ever touched? Hell, no. So we Democrats, keeping faith with our Founding Fathers, ought to raise holy hell over this latest invitation by Bu$hCo to slither any further into depradation.
I am furious, despairing, and so very sad. And I guess I’m naive, too, because I very simply don’t understand one simple thing about all of this, from the lies that pitched America into a war against Iraq to the immoral, disgusting legislation that will allow this country to openly torture others and destroy American democracy and freedom:
Why?
WHY?
Jane,
Myself, I would say I am disgusted, angry, somewhat despairing, but taking what actions I can. I encourage everyone to rattle the Dems’ cages about this. Personally, I am sending a letter to every last Dem Senator, and I’m hitting the phones tomorrow.
The letter I’m sending can be seen at http://pavingenglish.livejournal.com
I do not believe this is an electoral loser for the Dems. In my letter, I point out a couple of arguments that can be made that in fact cast the Republicans as the weak ones, for
needing to use torture to fight terrorist groups.
selise @ 311
We certainly don’t have that right.
Did you know that the Canadian House of Commons apologized unanimously to Maher Arar on Wednesday? (No? I’m not surprised. Try searching Google News for a non-Canadian reference to this not insignificant event.) True, it’s not the government in the person of the Prime Minister, and the House was over a barrel in light of the official report concluding that Arar had been wronged by Canada, but imagine the United States House of Representatives even considering such an apology.
I know you can imagine it. It’s what would have happened in the America we all thought we lived in. The one FDL is fighting to restore. If change comes to the United States in time, it’ll be because ordinary decent people banded together through sites like this to make it happen.
I live in Massachusetts.
I called the offices of Senators Kerry and Kennedy and told whoever answered the phone that I had never been so disgusted and angry about anything in my life.
The response I got? “Thank you for calling”.
I probably could have been more effective but I was and am SO GODDAMNED ANGRY!!!!
Remember the outrage when bush was talking about “privatizing” social security? That’s what we need on this issue. Torture house in Turkey exposed because neighbors heard screaming and smelled blood. Terroists as young as 3 found who had been drugged and sexually molested for some time. waynemadsenreport. He has been on air america with RRhodes and RFKJr. This is what our tax dollars are going for. NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.Only republicans can be assured their vote will count. Every law maker who votes for bushco’s torture policies should be tried at the Hague. Wonder if they would cry and whine like “Duke” cunningham over being caught.
What I would have wanted to see: the Democrats just walking out on this one. I mean it. Just not be there. Don’t bother voting. Just say to the rubber-stamp Republicans, “Fine, have your vote. But not with us. This is YOUR show.”
This is so abhorrent, so opposed to the ideals that the United States is supposed to stand for, that even to stand there and cast a “no” vote gives this piece of excrement more dignity than it deserves.
Because honestly, it’s so revolting that all you can do now is revolt. I don’t care if the Dems lost the midterms because of taking a real stand, really I don’t. As it stands now, what sort of a country will be left for them to run, even if they win?
Just for the record, nothing the Bush administration has done has pissed me off more than this. We’ve turned a corner in this country.
We are now openly embracing evil as public policy. We have dispensed with the veneer of good intentions. We cannot be excused as merely incompetent. This is deliberate, pre-meditated, in-your-face evil. The world recognizes it as such. It is just our press and politicians that seem to think it is a reasonable discussion to debate under what circumstances an anal pear violates the Geneva conventions (and then let it up to the Torturer-in-Chief to make the final decision).
America died a while back and nobody noticed. We are viewing the body so to speak now… This is truly horrifying and disgusting to think America does these things.It scares me.
A patently gauche justification for “bipartisanship”.
Just coming in at message 322 to say that I am beyond appalled at the entirety of congress over how they have dealt with this torture “compromise”. I am not a moral absolutist, but this comes about as close to absolutely wrong as I can think of.
When you think the country has sunk to the depths of depravity, we find we continue to descend even further into the abyss.
I wish Bill Clinton had spoken as passionately against torture as he did defending his anti-terror record.