
When I met John Olsen of the AFL-CIO at a picnic given in support of Joe Lieberman before the primary, he told me that one of the main reasons the union supported Joe was because of his excellent record on healthcare (’cos it sure wasn’t due to his votes on NAFTA and CAFTA). I took issue with the assertions about Joe’s support for healthcare, some strong words were exchanged and neither one of us changed each others’ minds.
Olsen faced strong opposition within his own union for supporting Joe, and now that Joe has left the party many within the AFL-CIO — including AFSCME, which recently endorsed Lamont — have been putting pressure on the leadership to abandon its unnatural love of Lieberman and back Lamont. Olsen told the NYT yesterday that they won’t, however. So it might be time to once again revisit Joe’s record on healthcare, which as Daily Cup of Joe reminds us, is something less than "excellent":
- During the 2003 consideration of President Bush’s destructive Medicare Part D bill, Sen. Joe Lieberman issued 8 press releases claiming he was outraged about the legislation and promising to do whatever he could to stop it. Yet, when it came time to vote on the bill and on amendments to fix the bill, Lieberman was nowhere to be found. He attended just 4 out of the Senate’s 38 votes on the Medicare bill, opting instead to hold fundraisers in California for himself so that he could add to the more than $1.8 million in health industry campaign contributions he has raked in over the last 6 years.
- One of the votes Lieberman skipped was on legislation that would have allowed Medicare and individuals to purchase FDA-approved medicines at lower, world-market prices. The legislation died in Lieberman’s absence.
- Not only did Lieberman skip roughly 90 percent of all votes on the most sweeping health care reform legislation in almost 4 decades, he actually issued a press release just before the key vote on final passage attempting to pretend he was actually present, even though he was not. Specifically, Lieberman issued a press release on 11/24/03 claiming he "cast his vote against the Medicare prescription drug bill conference report." In fact, while Lieberman voted on two procedural matters that day, he did not "cast his vote against the Medicare prescription drug bill conference report" – he actually skipped that final, crucial vote.
- In the 1990s, Lieberman spearheaded the effort to shut down any congressional debate over health care. On 8/20/94, Knight Ridder newspapers reported that the "dream of guaranteed, cradle-to-grave health insurance for all Americans appeared to be dead Friday" after Lieberman introduced legislation designed to effectively undermine and kill major health reform being debated in the Senate. Since that time, Lieberman has not pushed any serious plan to expand health care to all Americans.
- In his role leading the effort to stop the congressional debate over universal health care, Lieberman proposed a poison-pill plan that, according to the Boston Globe, "would limit employers’ ability to deduct health costs from their taxes in order to encourage more careful buying of coverage." Lieberman voted for draconian legislation in 1997 that, according to PBS, slashed $140 billion out of "Medicare and Medicaid spending and also includes a $20 a month increase in Medicare premiums." The Lieberman bill also "require[d] senior citizens earning $50,000 a year or more to pay even higher premiums" for Medicare. And, on 1/23/03, Lieberman skipped a close vote on legislation that, according to official Senate records, would have significantly "increase[d] funding for reducing health disparities and promoting minority health" through public health programs.
And what’s the alternative to No Show Joe?
"Every American should have access to affordable, quality health care coverage," Ned Lamont has said. "A comprehensive health system should be a fundamental part of a nation that will make us proud, a nation that is strong, caring and competitive in a global economy. The time to act is now. I am ready to be an activist Senator who is willing to stand up and pursue bold solutions to protect the health of Connecticut families.O
Once again, I think Lil’ Jimmy’s got some explaining to do to his membership. His continuing refusal to endorse Lamont — even in the wake of so much internal pressure from his own people — seems both unfounded and quite personal.
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Maybe?
YES!!!
It’s been a looong time. A zero!
epu’d…
Que, dude?
The facts shown above would be enough for me to vote against Joe,even if I didn’t know now what I do.
That is strictly against American values.
OT– Ahmadinejad is giving a completely great interview on Hardballs with Brian Williams… I mean it.
imho.
OT
Dude,
You sound put upon. Spanish is the second major language of this country. And whether you believe it or not those “illegals” do pay taxes everytime they purchase goods and services. If their children are born in this country then they are US citizens as much as you. And as far as “first” languages, Native American languages and Spanish have been here longer than English.
EPU’d for the third time today and I hate that. It likes being the last kid to get picked for the team. Since this post pertains to Lieberman, I thought this Raw Story report was appropos. Seems a coalition of religious leaders in Connecticut is pushing Lieberman and Dodd to make a public stand against torture.
[ ]
“Torture is a moral issue,” Rev. Allie Perry, a member of the RTPV said in a statement today. “It is also a profoundly religious issue, for it degrades the image of God in each person.”
“Nothing less than the soul of our nation is at stake,” Perry argues, “not to mention the rule of law.”
[ ]
Lieberman was one of five Democrats in the Senate who voted to strip the right to habeas corpus from prisoners at Guantanamo. The group also noted that Lieberman was one of six Democrats who voted in favor of the confirmation of Albert Gonzales as Attorney General.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2…..ose_tortur e_laws_0919.html
According to Common Dreams, the four other Dems who voted last year against the right of detainees to challenge their detention in federal courts are Ron Wyden OR), Kent Conrad (ND), Mary Landrieu (LA), and Ben Nelson (NE).
Angie,
For some reason when I read Hardball I start thinking Hairballs might be a better name for his program.
Guess Lil’ Jimmy and Ol’ Joe are joined at the what?
The hips…or the lips? *g*
AZ Matt @ 9
heh, I think I’m gonna use it.
ack, ack, ack………
Is there any way to spotlight this to members of CT AFL-CIO? Maybe John’s not giving his boys and girls the whole story….I am not computer savvy, but is there a group mailing that members receive?
A little OT maybe, but speaking of Lieberman…
EPU’d
“Lieberman was one of five Democrats in the Senate who voted to strip the right to habeas corpus from prisoners at Guantanamo. The group also noted that Lieberman was one of six Democrats who voted in favor of the confirmation of Albert Gonzales as Attorney General.”
This really burns me up.
Joe Lieberman is no Democrat.
Is it just me, or is Jane’s post just aching to be Spotlighted? :-)
OT for our Minnesotans:
http://www.c-span.org/
Ol’ 60 Grit on Tweety now.
Healthcare is something I have had to do without during periods of my life and I can only say thank god I stayed healthy. It seems as if some of the States are trying harder than the Feds to cover children. What ticks me is the Congress whacking on these basics needs everytime they need to give money back to the richest Americans who have more money now than in anytime in our country’s history.
AZ Matt @
6
Yeah, dude, not to mention that I don’t want my tax dollars used for corporate welfare, blowing up the middle east or assasinating foreign heads of state, but I don’t get to choose, either. Dude.
[mod note: dude has been given a time-out]
angie @
14
This race looks good.
On the other hand, the Bachmann/Wetterling race is more problematic. The vile swine at the NRCC sent out a second vicious attack flyer against Wetterling today. I can only hope that such things appeal only to that 0 of unreachables.
I wonder if I could sue the NRCC for spamming my snail mail box? Maybe Porky Rove could help.
Scum.
OT – Ahmadinejad speech @ the UN on now
Go here for info:
http://dumpbachmann.blogspot.com/
Go here to share love:
http://www.actblue.com/page/patty06
This truly is a good investment. Bachmann is heinous. Wetterling is an angel.
FDL glasses on:
2 news items today which I viewed thru my FDL sceptical spectacles.
(1) Coup in Thailand, suspension of the Constitution. Reaction: wonder how the neo-cons pulled this one off and how they will benefit, and is our administration just a tinge envious?
(2) CNBC headline “Iran-Venezuela Threat?” which just made me laugh at the sheer ridiculous make-stuff-up propaganda. Venezuela is only a threat because they have oil that we would like to
stealhave greater access to.Don’t hate the neologism or the player (a player usually picked first, btw. Don’t project your geeky memories onto the EPU).
It’s an honor to be EPU’d: respectful.
AZ Matt @ 16
I hear you.
And this is one reason we can’t write off Hillary Clinton’s candidacy. This is something that I hear constantly when I talk to people in my area: they’d vote for her and they need health care, and they think she can stand up for herself.
Mark Steckel @
13
Yep. I just sent it to 20 CT TV and print political reporters, anchors, editors and editorial page editors. Wouldn’t hurt for others to send along with their own comments.
Mark — about a week ago you created a mechanism to spotlight posts from other “supported blogs” (e.g., Glenn Greenwald), but after I tried it unsuccessfully a week ago, and again last nite, I wondered if you had modified the tool. Is there a revised link? Maybe I’m doing something wrong.
oops, posted on wrong thread! :
angie says
September 19th, 2006 at 4:41 pm*
OT– Ahmadinejad addressing the UN now…what a difference from our preznit. He’s making the argument against booooshco.
on cspan2
http://inside.c-spanarchives.o…..hedule.csp
OT– screen shot of Israel’s chair and delegation.
empty ;(
Re Venezuela, yet another neo-con dream/nightmare war, we are sufficiently threatening to them that a large percentage of the adult population is undergoing military training, to resist the U.S. oil invasion they fear is coming.
If the U.S. would ever be under an equivalent threat—a REAL threat—I would be among the first to enlist in the National Guard. But with our security threats being created by our own bull in the china shop clumsiness, or outright invented as lies, not so much.
Hint to policymakers: threats to Israel are not PER SE threats to the United States. We’ve got 20,000 casualties in Iraq based on this specious reasoning. And you want to do it again in Iran? You and what army? We are depleted thanks to this foolish and short-sighted neo-con philosophy.
PNAC can disband but the awful theories live on. Halliburton is spinning off Kellogg Root Brown to preserve what’s left of the brand but KBR will still get the $$$$ contracts.
It’s not just NAFTA. It’s one thing to promote free trade with your neighbors. Joe Lieberman supports free trade with the Sultanate of Oman. We the Sultans…
Hereditary monarchy and human trafficking – It’s the new poltics of unity and purpose!
AFL-CIO President John Sweeney needs to take John Olsen out for a cup of coffee and teach him about the facts of life. Joe Lieberman has been copping a cheap feel off labor for years and then always takes another girl to the prom. Joe Lieberman gives corporate America a corsage. He gives labor a bad case of the clap.
Your daily gas and oil prices
Average price for regular gasoline 9/19/06 in 50 states and DC
$3.00 plus 1 state
$2.90 plus 1 states
$2.80 plus 6 states
$2.70 plus 5 states
$2.60 plus 4 states
$2.50 plus 9 states
$2.40 plus 5 states
$2.30 plus 10 states
$2.20 plus 8 states
$2.10 plus 2 states
Average national price: $2.487, down $.008
Highest recorded national average price: $3.057 9/5/2005
Highest average price: Hawaii $3.222
Lowest average price: Missouri $2.159
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp
Nymex Crude Future $61.70, down $2.10
Dated Brent Spot $60.54, down $2.09
WTI Cushing Spot $61.66, down $2.14
Figures showing that core inflation was slight and the housing market was down underline the cooling in the US economy. It’s not like this trend is a big surprise but oil markets got spooked by it today. Now if oil prices were tied to Bush’s IQ, it would be selling for $10/bbl.
angie — Iran’s President was interviewed by Brian Williams on NBC and I was struck by two things: (1) how reasonable and reality-based their President was regarding what’s really happening in the ME, compared to ours and (2) how stupid, insulting and condescending William’s questions were. Williams showed he had a mindset not significantly different from neocons, in which it is inconceivable that the people our rightwing extremist describe as irretrievably evil could actually have a defensible point of view.
Williams, Curic, Gibson — where are the giants I used to watch?
scarecrow @
31
ditto, scarecrow. sad, eh?
Bill Moyers, Amy Goodman, Keith Olbermann.
Jon Stewart and Colbert and Peggy Fox.
Tell Swann that Lamont shouldn’t talk like a bureacrat. “Every American should have access to affordable, quality health care coverage.”
Why not: “Every American should have affordable, quality health care coverage.”
Yup, no more Huntley & Brinkely or Cronkite, just Hairballs and Faux.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 22
The memories aren’t geeky. Only the ball playing. Nevertheless, my bad. Disrespect is so unmusical.
Re languages, anyone who is not speaking Cherokee, Iroquois, Lakota, Navaho, etc. will be considered illegal immigrants. See how it looks from that side of the table.
Oh-see-oh!
OT: I havent posted a lot today coz some oppo research I did is hitting the local blogs, radio and MSM. A GOP candidate running as “a nice guy” had a couple of domestic violence arrests — the story is breaking today and I’ve been helping shape its development … fun and games !
*ilson46201 @ 37
yer a peach! {{{*}}}
scarecrow @ 31
Williams, apparently is a Limpball fan, so I am not surprised. Curic was so vicious with her interview of Kerry during the election, there is little doubt but that she is a republi-con. And, of course she featured Limpball on her second day into her new job. Gibson, I don’t know, but he seems pretty weak knee’d when it comes to the political situation. None of these people comes even close to K.O in acuity, intelligence, character, and deep concern about the future of this country.
egregious @ 36
There was a cartoon in a New Yorker several months ago which I cut out –
American Indians standing around talking and watching some Pilgrims row ashore –> “They look undocumented to me”
*ilson46201 @ 37
Kak @ 40
Some how my compliment and comment on Ilson got “eaten” by the system. It seems hungry!
Brian Williams and Ann Coulter…
both live(d) in New Canaan, CT. hmmmmmmmm.
(i have progressive friends from New Canaan, but it is now a town of katrinallaires)
Ahmadinejad is the Iranian version of Chimpy. He’s a bully, a hardliner, and a religious conservative. The difference is that being President of Iran is a lot like being the Governor of Texas. It’s a big title with little power to go with it.
Mark Steckel @
13
Mark, it is. I wonder if any reader has a listserv for CT AFL-CIO members. Would be great if this could be sent to the list.
Rick Perlstein @ 33
Delete “coverage.” A major problem with the health care discussion in the US is the assumption that the solution is through providing “coverage,” which then becomes a proxy for “insurance coverage,” which invariably means that there must be a system that depends on private insurance policies issued by private insurance companies. This is the link to JLs depending on insurance industry campaign donations. Whatever JL’s votes or failures to vote, I suspect Joes real problem is that he is locked into the mindset that sees this private insurance systems as the only or primary mechanism for providing health care “coverage.” so even if he supported providing “coverage” for all, it would be through this exclusively or primarily private insurance system.
But if you just say the goal is affordable quality health care, and not “coverage,” there are broader options available, and it is possible that the best option for many citizens would not require “insurance” policies or insurance companies at all. Only in America do we seem to be confused about this fundamental distinction between the service we want and the method to pay for it.
Speaking the Plame truth: EPU’d
Hoping that my recent donation for Marcy’s book will be designated for her.
Per comments/questions at Morning Satire 36 and 43, such donations and regular credit card payments for FDL look the same from our end. Is there some way of differentiating them? Paypal comes thru, how do you know whether it is for the book or not.
That was my main question at 36. At 43 are several suggestions for underwriting the funding of her book.
I hope we can include the existing* snail mail post office box near or in the Marcy info at the top right of the page. It can be asked and answered individually each time someone wants to contribute, but we might make it easier for those who wish to remain anonymous. *or is this only for Blue America?
Please excuse if these were already answered, I did try to search each thread for egr. It sounded like time was of the essence in raising funds for her publication; please excuse my questioning if there isn’t time to address these small issues at present.
angie @ 27
US chairs were empty too i think. CNN showed people walking out, I dont know who they were.
Hugh @ 30
Shoulder season is fairly predictable in the world of energy trading. What I think is fishy is not how far prices have fallen, but how high they were allowed to rise. Just think of Enron, when you think about the free and efficient market of energy trading.
Hugh @ 30
Hugh, please convert to doubloons and pieces of eight.
Hugh, Ahmadinejad has not launched III as has our chickenhawk.
I don’t trust anybody til proven, but his speech at the UN is powerful.
unlike the chimps.
He is on the world stage, not ours.
Hugh @ 45
Thank you for stating that. He also has the advantage of being able to simply counter the unyielding rhetoric of Chimpco. If he shows up and sounds in any way rational, he knows he “wins.”
Let’s not forget, no matter how much more eloquent Ahmadinejad is than our pResident; he is on public record as casting doubt on whether or not the Holocaust happened, and also that Israel should be wiped away/off the map (depending on the translation).
I believe that we, as a nation, must deny any other nation the ability to develop nuclear weapons. In addition, we must also take the lead in destroying the nuclear weapons of all nations.
Hugh, are your comments on Ahmadadinejad based on the speech he’s giving right now?
AZ Matt @ 42
Matt AZ if you put your quote AFTER the very last “/blockquote” then we will be able to see it is yours rather than another commenter’s.
I had a next door neighbor in Boston whose people went back to the Salem witch trials. We could live there our entire lives and still be “the new people.” So we moved to Virginia, where my non-Cherokee folks came over in the early 1600’s on those death boats.
ifthethunderdontgetya #50,
Where gas prices got was about where they were last year. Oil prices spiked a little higher this year. On the oil side, there was speculative pressure all summer. As I pointed out yesterday, the slide in gas began earlier this year and while expensive oil was still in the system.
meta #55,
I’m basing my opinion on Ahmadinejad on what I know of his track record.
OT– Turley kicks butt on torture yet again on KO!
BTW how much does a doubloon go for these days? And are all the modern pirates to be found at Halliburton and Exxon?
Thanks, I’m not listening to the speech and was wondering what he’s saying.
T-Says: Yah, but on nuclear weapons in Iran, everything I have read indicates that they are pretty far off. Sounds to me a bit too much like the propaganda we put out there in the run-up to the Iraq war. And, are you going to deny Holland, Russia, Israel nuclear power? Fat chance of that happening! Don’t forget either, it was the U.S. that insisted on the election in Iran, that brought him in. Clearly we (and they) were better off before shrub’s interventionism.
scarecrow @ 47
Amen!
And why is it that having dozens of separate corporate bureaucracies is viewed as more efficient (in the economic sense) than a single bureaucracy? When hospitals, clinics, and medical offices have to deal with a different set of red tape for each insurance company, that’s time and money they can’t devote to patient care. From the patient and the provider points of view, a single payer system is much more efficient – it’s only the multiple payers of the insurance industry that don’t like it!
LindyH @
46
T- @ 54
WRT the wipe away/ off the map legend:
http://www.juancole.com/2006/0…..ation.html
“This affair is similar to the attribution to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the statement that “Israel must be wiped off the map.” No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said “The occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.” Of course Ahamdinejad does wish Israel would disappear, but he is not commander of the armed forces and could not attack it even if he wanted to, which he denies.
I had a very disturbing short email correspondence with a reporter of a major national newspaper who used the inaccurate “wiped off the face of the map” quote. When challenged, he said it was “carried by the news wires and is well known” or words to that effect. I pointed out that the “quote” was attributed to a specific speech and that the statement was inaccurately translated. When challenged further he alleged that his trusted translator in Tehran affirmed that Ahmadinejad had said the phrase. When that was challenged, he reported that the translator said that anyway he had said something like it. When I pointed out that the translator was either lying or lazy, the reporter took offense that I had insulted a trusted colleague! I conclude that this reporter is attached to the phrase. He complained about being challenged by “bloggers” and said he was tempted to stop reading “blogs.”
(emphasis added)
scarecrow @ 25
Just checked. It appears to be working fine.
So here is what your do:
Select the blog post you want to Spotlight
Copy the full permalink for the post. For Glenn’s blog, a permalink looks like:
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..to_18.html
Go to the Spotlight page
Paste the permalink into the text field
Press Submit
That should do it.
Hugh @ 60
aaarrgh and ay’, no more cuttin’ their heads off wit a cutlass, now we sell the scallywags (regular folks) down the plank! (???)
It’s powerrrrrrrrrrr!
OT but hopefully of interest….
On yesterday’s Mark Steiner show (on WYPR, Baltimore’s NPR affiliate), there was a discussion about the problems Maryland experienced with electronic voting last week.
“Lee in Catonsville” (an election judge in Baltimore County) reported that the electronic poll books kept crashing.
But more alarming to me, was this
(my transcriptions above)
I’m wondering if the seven missing voters had some correlation to the poll book crashes. If you want to suppress the vote in a precinct, maybe you can just arrange for the poll books to crash at a set interval.
There should, in my opinion be a forensic reenactment of the voting in this district using the same equipment. I am willing to give up a day’s work to go to the polling place and vote 829 times if need be.
You can listen to this Mark Steiner show (mp3) at http://tinyurl.com/nhrh3. The above call can be heard starting at about the 25:00 minute mark.
As a former network administrator, this sounds like a rather atypical hardware problem. If it’s a software problem, this needs to be identified and corrected before the November elections.
T- @
54
Well, I guess we just missed Pakistan and North Korea, but what the heck?
You may get your wish if the Dems don’t retake Congress and stop the Bush from implementing their insane policies. The Bush Administration would very much like to create the conditions in which we seem forced to deny another nation “the ability to develop nuclear weapons.” I regard that absolutist position, in the hands of the current Administration, as increasing the likelihood of another pointless, bloody and indefensible war, which will get us bogged down in yet another country that hates us, trapping our already strained military, weakening our influence in the ME and putting Israel’s security in jeopardy. Otherwise, it’s a great idea.
blasted “i*nsurance industry” (a/k/a “They who shall not be named”) landed me in moderation at 5:16
Arrrgh!
shorter version: Amen, scarecrow @ 5:02
Thanks, mods, in advance – you’ve had quite the day, and didn’t mean to add to it.
Hugh @ 57
Gasoline did spike that high last year, but it didn’t live there all of the summer driving season, like this year.
And there’s this…it’s not like autumn following summer is any surprise in this day and age, or that there was a shortage of storage capacity.
Olberman’s show is exciting, scary, and I am a bit frightened and worried. Why? Because I don’t know what irrational actions the neo-cons are going to take in response to the exposure of the activities of Bush lunatics. My imagination is running wild. And I don’t like it.
Turley: Torture is immoral in any religion.
Bush = Immoral
Cozumel @ 72
Seconded! Thirded! and Fourthed!
Richmond @ 62
I don’t know how far off they are, however I am willing to defer to the IAEA, since US intelligence is manipulated.
Russia and Israel are already nuclear powers and, as a member of NATO, Holland is essentially the same.
I support non-proliferation and de-proliferation. All WMD on this planet should be destroyed for our own good. The US should take the lead and audits should be performed by an international coalition.
The benefits include: no scenario for mutually assured destruction; and elimination of foreign policy double standards for nuclear powers vs. non-nuclear powers.
Any election night blogging out there?
and then there’s little bit by somebody that actually speaks farsi:
http://64.233.161.104/custom?q…..o-any.html wipe israel&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
OT – shorter CNN’s Zahn and General Grange — War with Iran only a matter of time. wouldn’t be full scale AT FIRST.
T – I concur on IAEA, but the horse is in essence out of the barn. Politically speaking, I have little doubt but that this is something that 2 very weak (and disfunctional) nation leaders (US and Iran) are in up to their necks with. I think talk, considering there seems to be no present threat, is by far the best bet.
twolf1 @ 78
The war drums are being hauled out all ready. The whole point is to make it look not only like it is necessary for our very existence, but also that there is no stopping this thing from happening. Exact same thing with Iraq. Will any of our weak-kneed Democratic leaders be willing to take this on now before it is too late? Will there be any movement toward taking to the streets?
angie — fascinating concept — a joint, non-secular government with powers shared by members of all political communities.
Wonder if we could have one of those in the US? Think Bush would go for that?
KO covering Dorgan and Greenwald NOW!
scarecrow @ 81
we can and must starting in November!
or NOW.
scarecrow @ 68
Yes scarecrow, its amazing what we missed in terms of global security while we we damaged it in Iraq.
I don’t think that anyone here is comfortable with another nation capable of producing nuclear weapons, especially in the middle east.
I think you have misinterpreted “my wish”. I’m well aware of what bushco’s motivations are, however it seems like the end, here, is aligned with ours: the denial of any and all other countries the capability to make nuclear weapons.
The means are how we differentiate ourselves from bushco.
KO has clips from Iraq For Sale
Balrog @ 51
Yer welcome, matey. Arrgh.
Greenwald giving huge props to Waxman!
KO evokes Truman and his Commission!
twolf1 @ 78
then oil goes to $200/barrel and the entire U.S. economy comes to a grinding halt.
thanks george.
Iran is 5 – 10 years from a weapon. Talk of a threat is crap. And even if they had a weapon (which they could simply buy right now), they would be crazy to use it.
The “threat” the neo-cons fear is 21st century modern, technologically advanced Iran. They simply don’t want that because that would mean diplomatic compromise with the Iranians. That of course means we/Israel don’t get our way in all matters ME.
In fact, the US would love to prove the Iranians have a weapon right now… could you imagine…
Richmond and T -:
Holland, part of the Netherlands.
like
England, part of the UK, but not all.
Russia, part of the former Soviet Union, “.
It was Holland a very long time ago.
Ahmadinejad seems to be explaining what his calls for the Zionist regime to be effaced actually mean. He says he doesn’t want violence against Israel, despite its own acts of enmity against Middle Eastern neighbors. I interpret his statement on Saturday to be an endorsement of the one-state solution, in which a government would be elected that all Palestinians and all Israelis would jointly vote for.
There’s an awful lot of inference in that paragraph concerning what Ahmadinejad said/meant.
Personally, I’ll buy into the idea that the statement is no different from the inane rhetoric we get from Chimpco to prop up its support.
But Cole’s suppositions aside, there really doesn’t seem to be that great a distinction between “effacing” the Zionist regime (i.e. Israel) and “wiping it off the map.”
The real unfortunate part of the statement, whichever interpretation, is that it gave/gives fodder to Chimpco, who are more than willing to use it to further their own illegitimate aims, regardless of what Ahmadinejad meant.
egregious,
But they’re still Dutch, right?
box o’ ho.
had to do it, you scalliwags!
Warner, McCain, Graham. None of these men are deserving of trust. As for Powell? I don’t care what he’s saying. He had his opportunity. He could have resigned as Secretary of State years ago. When it counted. He blew it. People have died, Colin. And you helped put them in their graves.
My #90. The first paragraph should be a block quote. It was someone quoting Juan Cole.
T-
I accept your statement of what you meant, but I do not share your view that the goal should be framed as “denying other coutries” the ability to have nuclear weapons. I think it is a mistake to use those terms as long as the Bush Administration is in power, because they will use it to create the conditions in which war becomes inevitable. Democrats and the trad-media have already fallen into this rhetorical trap.
It may be desireable, but it is not essential to American security that Iran not develop nuclear weapons (assuming that is their current intention). It is, however, important that we create conditions in the ME (and elsewhere) in which everyone who might have or wish to develop nuclear weapons reaches the firm conviction that using them would be unthinkable. That framework worked; it kept us safe for 50 years against a far more dangerous enemy with far more aggressive and expansionist policy, and an ideology more inimical and an existentialist threat than any threat from the President of Iran.
The President’s wording, that “we cannot allow them to have this” is irresponsible and will likely lead us to war, and we should not endorse it.
ifthethunderdontgetya #71,
In some sense I agree about the gas prices this summer. They were irrational. Oil prices were up as well but while driven by speculative pressures which may be irrational the effects of those pressures are pretty straightforward (unlike gasoline). The fall in oil and gas prices have some characteristics like the cooling US economy in common but gasoline’s behavior remains irrational. Oil’s isn’t.
twolf1 @
85
Good!
kemo @ 89
Pakistan has nuclear weapons and Osama bin Laden right now. This is in preparation for the October surprise, where we “capture” OBL but oh gosh darm the luck no body but we have
completely fabricatedauthentic DNA. Yay Repubs, boo Dems, vote for the people with the best lies?Are we attacking Pakistan any time soon? How about Saudi Arabia, where the alleged 9/11 terrorists were from, if you go with that scenario?
***crickets***
I don’t hear much grumbling about the Saudis being a threat to our national security. MY MASCARA, HOWEVER…well don’t get me started.
Ok then why Iran, if not to eliminate a country [God it makes me sick just to type that] who is a threat, not to us, but to another country cough*Israel*cough.
Obligatory not anti-Semitic qualifier, my nephew and niece are Jewish. This is not anti-Jewish, it is about separating the national interests of the U.S. and other countries where it involves tens of thousands of our children killed and grievously wounded.
A Palestinian homeland is required. And not one that looks like a piece of Swiss cheese. Anything less will not foment peace in the Middle East.
hey *ilson,
if you’re done w/ your oppo research mission and don’t have any thing else better to do…can you correct my subject verb agreement at 83, please? I never figured out the edit comment functionality.
“ends, here, are”
“means are”
You’re a peach, hon.
I just spotlighted this to 100 donors.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 91
Well, EPU, I have read your assessment and appreciate it, but do you speak Farsi? Language used to be an art and it still is in most places where diplomacy is respected and practiced. I am confounded that I still have to have a complete idiot (my preznit) representing me with zero nuance, zero content, and zero intelligence.
poo on the MSM, too!
A doubloon be accordin’ to me maties at wiki .225 troy ounce o’ gold an’ the price o’ gold today be nigh $573. So a doubloon be $129 or so, jest so ye knows. Arrgh!
kemo at 89 In fact, the US would love to prove the Iranians have a weapon right now… could you imagine
That’s why they outed Valerie Plame Wilson. Her company kept Carlyle from salting Iraq with WMD. She was interfering with The Plan.
I just read this piece by E.L. Doctorow… I think it was a speech he gave at a university on September 9. An excerpt…
Here’s the link: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0920-13.htm
Well, I’ve always loved Doctorow, his latest book won him a Pulitzer and his “Welcome to Hard Times” and “Ragtime” were brilliant and brutal. His thoughts on this so- called man, George Bush, are profound.
Healthcare is so important! In May, I rang up over $20,000 in medical bills and the same this month. Thank god I have insurance or I’d be living under the bridge. Of course, I thank my employees for being so fair also with all the time off I have taken. I am so lucky yet so sad when I think of those who don’t have it.
The first thing I did with this post is go to spotlight and type in Health and up came the Health writers.
More Doctorow:
ccmask @ 102
That’s great. How did you do that? What are the steps?
T re: your 83
Your wish is my command.
refresh (f5).
You’re welcome, hon.
scarecrow
…totally agreed.
That’s assuming that people like you and me cannont convince the majority that it’s a false choice if the lunatics are still running the asylum: weapons or war.
I disagree here. What this implys is another nuclear arms race which is bad for everyone except the military industrial complex. And we came damn close to an unsuccessful resolution of the neoconnish idea of mutually assured destruction. See Bay of Pigs.
Bush and his cronies are drawing up the spec necessary to say we must go to war with Iran. Everytime he frames the issue, he is banging the drumbeat of war. It is exactly as it was in the lead-up to Iraq. Lots of posturing without concrete evidence. Making everyone else into a crazy terrorist. He will draw the line in the sand.
I’m sick to death of this constant manipulation. I’m not saying Iran is innocent of all wrong-doing. I’m saying that the time for the United States to claim to be a global superpower by declaring war on entire regions of the globe are over. This must stop.
EPU said
Oh no?
Try distinguishing this quote
“The Bush regime occupying Iraq should vanish from the page of time”
from this quote
“The USA must be wiped off the map”
I see a big difference.
egregious @ 105
Scary, isn’t it.
I can’t imagine how any of these countries are a strategic threat to the US. Now, Israel has an issue, as the Iranian president alluded to. It is a demographic threat, not a military threat. If they must compromise diplomatically with the Iranians/Lebanese (Hamas/Hezbulla), they have to treat the Palestinians fairly (votes, land rights etc.)
Well then, that is a problem, and represents a scary new world for some…
Avast! There be a new thread!
JftB—those are some mighty powerful words from Doctorow. They’re even more impressive when you realize they were written over two years ago. Thanks for the link.
Angie – No, I don’t speak Farsi. But I don’t need to speak Farsi to understand the plain English, which is my mameloschn, of Juan Cole.
His suppositions may be better than anyone else’s, but they are still suppositions. I will add that I give him a lot of credit for openly stating that he is making inferences, rather than simply stating inference as fact.
I don’t disagree. But that also applies to others. True, ours is worse b/c it is ours, and b/c ours has the power (or at least had the power) to follow through on its insane rhetoric and threats. But just b/c our gov’t rhetorc is bad doesn’t make anyone else’s language by definition “good.”
scarecrow: Click on Spotlight. Under the column marked Targets, click on each one you want and click on add. When you have 10 in the right hand column, hit next. On the next page, add your commnets, fill in the form, and hit preview. Type in the special code and send it.
—–
You can do 10 at a time only. You can send it Nationally, Regionally, or type in a search word. Once you put in these options, hit update and then start adding the targets!
mommybrain, thanks.
lukebrain is lucky.
Prof. Juan Cole reads Farsi…
Dru – If you want to compare apples to apples using the US, then you would need to write:
“The
Bushregime occupyingIraqAmerica should vanish from the page of time.”Where the regime and the people/state are one and the same. And yes, that is an inference I am making.
I don’t believe Israel is an illegitimate state, I don’t believe in the Utopian (and yes I am using that in a pejorative sense) “one state” plan, but I do believe that Palestinians deserve a state of their own and that Israel will have to accomodate it.
T- @ 92
Aye.
Hugh @
104
Aye, but there be a collector value to the doubloon above and beyond it’s gold value, arr. And a doubloon is about 3/4 of an ounce.
T- We’ll just have to disagree.
One minor point. I don’t recall MAD as being a neocon concept. Indeed, the precursors of neocons in the Reagan Administration (Cheney and Rummy) tried to destabilize the MAD concept by building the ABM system, the magical shield that would protect us, but not the Russians. They hated MAD, because it required one to presume that our most hated enemy was actually just as rationale as we were.
Rejecting that thought is exactly what we see today. The “terrorist” enemy today are described as irretrievably evil and irrational, and completely beyond any reasonable approach. If that is true, then we should get on with the necessary task of exterminating them, and the sooner the better. Iran is their sponsor, so its nuclear program would be used to give these terrorists nuclear weapons. That is essentially what the right wing is saying, as Glenn Greenwald has been reporting, every day, and the President has adopted most of their language and framework — except when Condi convinces Bush to stop using the terms “islamo-fascist.”
RGB -
Thanks. I didn’t realize the essay was two years old!
Evil Parallel Universe @ 118
with all due respect EPU, I want our country to survive, thrive and be a beacon. Our language and the context in which it is used matters the most to me. Proper and exact interpretation of another world power’s words also means much. I will never be an idealogue or a slave to those that misinterpret both
literal and contextual translation.
scarecrow @ 124
I think they hated MAD because their preferred solution was to nuke ‘the other’ out of existence. And this is still their preferred solution.
okay EPU, I like mine better but we can use your apples; do you still not see any difference?
ccmask — no. I know how to use Spotlight. But your post said you sent this to 100 “donors,” so I thought you had figured out an easy way to import a list of e-mails of people not already listed into the Spotlight list. Did I misunderstand you?
ifthethunderdontgetya, the neocons will.
Well, this is so reassuring. Larry King has Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper and some other guy talking about whether bombing Iran would work and what would be the consequences.
Doesn’t anyone care whether this is a good idea? And how did we get to this point where people sit around and talk about this as though it’s some abstact point?
Dru – No. Nor are we going to persuade the other to change their view – at least not on this thread.
scarecrow @ 132
As I said earlier, it is all to make it look like it is inevitable, to make the opposition think there is no point of trying to get in their way. And, remember, we need an October surprise. The whole thing disgusts me. Will anyone in Congress speak out?
scarecrow @ 130
Yes. Spotlight is limited to ten targets at a time. This is intentional to discourage massive campaigns and abuse. The last thing we want is for reporters to say “Damm, more Spotlight emails…” and hit delete w/o reading them. The best way to avoid this is by limiting how many can be sent at a time.
Also, smart, pithy, factual comments help too. I’m less sure about cheesy comments though. {ducks and runs…}
Maybe it’s time for a Moratorium. If COngress won’t speak out, maybe we have to take to the streets in large enough numbers to be unavoidably significant.
scarecrow 132, I guess we got to this point just like we got to the point in Iraq. Even among otherwise thoughtful people there seems to be a consensus that Iran is lead by a psycho who wants to wipe us all off the map and the only response is bombs.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 133
okay, good for you. Ta!
Dru @ 137
Otherwise thoughtful? Come come, nobody has just one blind spot…….
Old Sow re: 139
I don’t get it; help?
Lots of people have blind spots all over, Old Sow!
aargh!
angie-141
OH. Now I got it, maybe. ARGGGh. Thanks matey.
I don’t think that “Otherwise Thoughtful” people are just over the edge on a single issue like Iran and the bomb, that’s all. I mean, maybe they also think that Nafta is good, or that the US ought to have the right to have the best ideas about other international arrangements.
I think that thinking that Iran is so dangerous that it must be bombed is working from a blind spot. It’s not so much a question of Iran as it is the whole region. As we have found with Iraq, meddling only makes all the rest worse.
aaargh!
Wow, Jane, I spotlighted this post to a bunch of Business reporters at the Connecticut papers — the AFL-CIO’s got a lot to answer for in its support of RGJoe, and no one likes to investigate labor better than Business reporters, right?
Gotta love that cuppa Joe!
=================
Had Enough, Connecticut?
=================
Brian Williams is a self-proclaimed ‘big fan’ of Oxycontin Limp-baugh.
-GSD
Rush is an OxyMoron. And Scarecrow, I guess my mistake was using the word donors. I meant to say targets. Shiver me timbers!
scarecrow-
the only substantive point that I still see that we might disagree on is this:
Does this not imply Pax Americana, leading another arms race to mitigate that, is your preferable solution?
What is “unthinkable” if its not defined as Mutually assured destruction?
How safe did you feel during the bay of pigs in ‘61 and the nuclear arms race in the 80’s?
T-
No. Once both sides understood the logic of MAD, they were able to slow down the arms race and negotiate reductions.
The inevitability of destruction, even if you try a preemptive strike, is what makes the preemptive strike unthinkable.
Bay of Pigs was not as scary as the subsequent missile crisis. The danger there was the potential for miscalculation on both sides. But MAD made both sides look for alternatives, and they found them.
The arms race in the 80’s was a concern because the people in the WH did not understand MAD and were willing to risk undermining it.
The point is not that the world is better with nuclear weapons than without them. Or course it’s not. The question is what means should the US take to prevent another determined nation not to develop such weapons. I do not believe it is rational to engage in rhetoric that leads inexorably to war if we don’t succeed in convincing Iran to not choose that path, because there is a fallback strategy that can also achieve an acceptable objective.
scarecrow-
Thanks, but…the USSR and USA did not slow down arms production until Earth was assuredly destroyed 10K times over.
exactly, see my second comment at 84 on this.
I think we are now in an arms race due to the inconsistancy that our current foreign policy affords nuclear vs. non-nuclear powers.
This admin. not in a position to prevail diplomatically in non-proliferation.
Our only hope for that is a regime change in the US and an all-out effort to gain the trust of the international community.
That is only possible with a Democratic majority in congress. We do not disagree on that.
Two changes might make Iran give up its nuclear ambition:
Israel decommissions its 200 – 400 nuclear weapons, and if oil lasts another five hundred years.
What is the possibility of either happening?
Slim, very slim indeed.
The administration uses the threat of war.
Considering the problems in Iraq, it has the appearance of an empty threat.
And, on 1/23/03, Lieberman skipped a close vote on legislation that, according to official Senate records, would have significantly “increase[d] funding for reducing health disparities and promoting minority health” through public health programs.
HoJoe-brand cynicism is toxic: lip service, saintly statements, and a raging sense of entitlement. He’s nothing but an “elder statesmen” to special interests. He sniffs whichever way the political winds blow and hops on that badwagon without even batting an eyelash . I wish people in CT who have “met” Joe, would *stop* calling the man “nice.” A man without moral compass is not “nice.”
Re: Iran. ChimpCo has the special ability to tap into ugliness everywhere and make the world worse.So the little people around the world are captive to a bunch of hostile regimes or caught in crossfire (e.g. Lebanonese civilans.). If I got into the argument on who’s more insane, the Preznit of Iran or the Preznit of the U.S. I would say it’s the Preznit of the U.S.