
(Photo via Face the Nation/Karin Cooper. Left to right, Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and Bush’s National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, haggle in the green room before the show.)
There was a clue dropped into the middle of a WaPo article yesterday regarding the discomfort a whole lot of Republicans are feeling about the Bush-backed, rush attempt to change the laws dealing with interrogation and the application of the Geneva Conventions to al qaeda.
I honestly think that there are some lawmakers who, on principle, have opposed these changes — despite the elements of political calculation involved, I do think that McCain has a very good understanding of why torture should not be our set policy and what the implications for our men and women in uniform would be…you know, having been tortured himself, and all, it gives him a very stark window into what that can mean. And I think that both Lindsey Graham and John Warner, having spent much of their lives immersed in the minutiae of military personnel policies and legal precedents involved, have a very clear understanding of what muddying the waters could mean for enlisted personnel on this issue.
There are indications that a compromise on the issue may now be sought by the White House, which is feeling the heat (or acting as though it is in some weird public kabuki designed to buck up that whole "independent Republicans" meme we talked about yesterday as a pre-election strategy). From the NYTimes:
Mr. McCain has said that redefining the practices allowed under Common Article 3, which outlaws “outrages upon personal dignity” and “humiliating and degrading treatment,” would ultimately harm captured American soldiers and further undercut the United States image abroad. Mr. Hadley repeated on Sunday the administration’s position that the White House wanted to clarify how the provision applied to Qaeda prisoners and others termed “unlawful combatants.”
Other administration officials said it became clear over the weekend that the administration was going to have to give ground. “I don’t think anyone anticipated the avalanche of opinion that would be assembled on the other side of what seemed like a pretty abstruse legal issue,” one official said, speaking on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to discuss the issue with a reporter….
Then, adding to the administration’s pain on the issue, he said: “By the way, I forgot to mention this: George Shultz said I could say that he strongly favors our position.” Mr. Shultz was President Ronald Reagan’s secretary of state, and his endorsement would add another powerful Republican voice in opposition to Mr. Bush, along with that of former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell.
At his Rose Garden news conference on Friday, Mr. Bush said Congress must provide “clarity” to C.I.A. interrogators seeking to extract information about future attacks from “enemy combatants.”
But Mr. Bush and Mr. Hadley have declined to say what kind of “alternative interrogation practices” they want to make explicitly legal, so interrogators do not have to fear prosecution under the War Crimes Act for violating the Geneva Conventions. Common Article 3 does not define exactly what constitutes violations of personal dignity or degrading treatment.
I wonder if it has even occurred to the Bush Administration that Common Article III of the Geneva Conventions was left to some interpretation precisely because it was a document which was meant to stand the test of time, and which would allow for an evolving interpretation as standards of behavior evolved in civilized societies. What may have been considered a common practice in the 1400s, say, is not now something that we would consider to be appropriate in terms of treatment of prisoners. Thus why would the drafters of Article III not plan for that same evolution of thought and practice over time in writing a law which is to be applied via treaty signature (of which the United States is a party, btw, and has been for years and years) across a broad range of cultural and national boundaries.
And note in the quoted passage above that the Bush Administration simply thought we’d be too lazy or too stupid to pay attention to their illegal maneuvers and machinations. Wrong again.
Let’s be honest, until the Bush Administration evinced a problem with their reading comprehension of the Geneva Conventions on this issue, no other American President since we became a signatory has had this sort of issue with Article III. George Bush simply wants his way, and no mere law is going to stop him — that’s really the bottom line, isn’t it? (L’etat? C’est moi.)
So, instead of putting forth an argument on the merits, the Bush Administration has deployed the "if you disagree with us, you aren’t really patriotic" brigades under the guise of "you want to aid al qaeda" — and they have been calling McCain, Graham and Warner to pass along the Administration’s message at the urging of the integrity-free stylings of Hannity, Limbaugh and company. Classy.
Nothing like haranguing a man who was tortured over a period of years while wearing our nation’s uniform about the fact that he doesn’t fully understand why our nation needs to torture to really clarify who fails to truly understand the long-term implications of our current policies on our nation’s military and intelligence forces.
“This issue is not them — this issue is about us,” he said of terrorists, facing an audience sipping cocktails on a lush lawn next to a pool. “The United States has always been better than our enemies. I’ll tell you right now: one of the things in prison, in North Vietnam, that kept us strong was that we knew we were not like our enemies. That we came from a better nation, with better values, with better standards.”…
“What is this all about?” he continued. “It’s all about the United States of America and what is going to happen to Americans who are taken prisoner in future wars.”
Is there political calculation in McCain’s actions? Oh sure. I mean, honestly, he’s a politician — which of them isn’t constantly framing and reframing in terms of politics?
But beyond that, there are certain principles on which America has stood for generations, and this is one of them — from George Washington onward, humane and decent treatment of prisoners by this nation has been one of the hard and fast rules of our nation’s military.
Have there been instances where that treatment has been less than decent? Certainly. Human beings are fallible, and they should pay for the consequences of stepping over the line when they do so. But the official rules and regulations have been fairly clear since Washington’s command of the Continental Army…until the Bush Administration.
The official rules and regs are what this nation will be judged on by other nations, by other combatants…and will be the likely treatment our own soldiers and intelligence officers will face in the hands of the enemy.
And one question that we need to ask ourselves is this: is the treatment to which we are subjecting others something that you would be comfortable visiting on an American soldier? Because our actions are inviting just that from other enemy forces…and we need to be conscious of that with every single decision we make in this arena. Tom Malinowski, in an op-ed in the WaPo, has some suggestions for President Bush’s "to read" pile:
Finally, the president might review the memoirs of former Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin, who describes experiencing sleep deprivation in a Soviet prison in the 1940s: "In the head of the interrogated prisoner a haze begins to form. His spirit is wearied to death, his legs are unsteady, and he has one sole desire: to sleep, to sleep just a little, not to get up, to lie, to rest, to forget. . . . Anyone who has experienced this desire knows that not even hunger or thirst are comparable with it. . . . I came across prisoners who signed what they were ordered to sign, only to get what the interrogator promised them. He did not promise them their liberty. He promised them — if they signed — uninterrupted sleep!"
The Soviets understood that these methods were cruel. They were also honest with themselves about the purpose of such cruelty — to brutalize their enemies and to extract false confessions, rather than truthful intelligence. By denying this, President Bush is not just misleading us. He appears to be deceiving himself.
We are better than this, as a nation. Moreover, we expect those we elect to lead us to be better than this. And we need to tell them so.
Up until now, the Democratic strategy has been to sit back and let the GOP fight it out amongst themselves, so that the Dem leadership doesn’t have to get its hands dirty on this issue — and, moreover, doesn’t have to risk being labeled as weak on terror by the Rove brigades in yet another election year branding war. The problem with that being twofold: can you trust the Republicans to stand on principle on this issue without caving to Bush Administration demands and threats and, more importantly, shouldn’t the Democrats be standing up for American principles strongly, and with conviction?
The clue in the WaPo article from yesterday? It sure sounds to me like the GOP is pissed that the Bush Administration has dumped the mess of George Bush’s making in the lap of the Republican-controlled Congress right before the election. It seems that George’s pass the buck routine is wearing thin on a whole lot of Republicans facing a difficult election cycle because the President’s botched leadership has made their re-election hopes much less sound.
But misgivings over the agenda set out by the president and GOP leaders are growing. Rep. Steve Buyer (R-Ind.) said he told Bush on Thursday that he should heed the military’s top uniformed lawyers, who have opposed some provisions of the president’s tribunal plan. Rep. Charles Bass (R-N.H.), one of several moderate Northeasterners in tough reelection campaigns, said he has no problem with Bush’s bills. He is likely to vote against them.
The problem, Lungren said, is that the complexity of the tribunal and wiretapping issues do not lend themselves to the quick action Bush wants.
"This is a big deal to drop in our laps," he added. "There is some discomfort with the time period we’ve been given."
Perhaps the Democratic strategy is to push from the background and exploit that wedge while they can among the GOP. If so, it is a smart move — but only so long as the Warner/McCain/Graham unit stands on principle. And it does not protect the House flank from the Duncan Hunter manipulation of the process in conference. This is one time when many voices raised in support of the rule of law can make a big difference in terms of the actions of those legislators who know that it is the right thing to stand up for principle. They need to know that we have their back on this issue — because it is the right thing to do.
Clearly the wingnut Wurlitzer is in full CYA for Bush mode in terms of calls to Congress. This morning, we need to give a bit of pushback, and make certain that the elected officials in both the House and the Senate clearly understand that some American values are still held sacred by members of the public.
Tell your elected officials that torture should not be an officially sanctioned policy of the United States of America — that General George Washington had it right from the nation’s founding. Tell them that if a public trial was good enough for the Nazis, it ought to be good enough for the terrorists against whom we fight today.
And tell them that you expect them to uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States, our Bill of Rights and our international treaty obligations — because the Rule of Law is more important that protecting George Bush’s ego…and that our nation’s reputation is more important than the short run unilateral executive power grab by this Administration.
While we are at it, remind your elected officials that they cannot simply legislate away the requirements of the Constitution — that requires an amendment for which they will not get support in this nation, and that we are well aware that their actions on this issue are disengenous at best. There are much bigger problems to work on in the short period of legislative time they have before the elections than ratifying torture, only to have it overturned by the Courts who have already shown their commitment to the Constitution and our treaty signature via the Hamdan case.
We gave our word from our nation’s founding to work toward a "more perfect union" — let us not take steps backward in our generation. We owe to all of the generations to come to stand fast for the rule of law over the fleeting whims of any one man.
You can call via the Capitol switcboard at 888-355-3588 or find specific Senator office information here.
(H/T to LHP for the heads up on the NYTimes articles this morning.)
UPDATE: Balkinization (H/T Redshift) and ACSBlog have some thoughts on problems with the Warner/McCain/Graham version of the bill, specifically with regard to evidentiary issues. Anyone who has either done criminal defense work or prosecuted cases will understand the problems with the use of hearsay evidence — and the enormity of the issues raised when you strip some of these protections regarding the hearsay evidence out of the mix as proposed by this bill.
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FITZ
Good morning FireDogs, happy Monday!
Morning all. :) Hope it’s as gorgeous where you guys are as it is here today.
I’d love to see a list, all in one place, of the folks lined up against this abomination. There are former directors of the CIA like Stansfield Turner, former cabinet officers, former generals and admirals (going all the way to former chairs of the JCS), former Presidents like Jimmy Carter, lawyers from here to Sunday like Alberto Mora and others, etc.
Just line up the names, and spotlight it from sea to shining sea (or district to shining district, to be a bit more political about it).
That phrase seems to come out of this administration a lot. Can’t see beyond the end of our nose, can we?
If we don’t want them doing it to us, we shouldn’t do it to them. How fucking hard is that to comprehend?
ACSBlog also has a guest article up by a UChicago law professor on the Bush Administration’s machinations to set aside Sixth Amendment protections for the tribunals. Thought some of the legal beagles might find it an interesting read.
the Native American leader Tecumseh was highly admired by Americans in the 19th Century precisely because of his successful demand that prisoners should be treated humanely – not tortured and killed. We almost named the new capital city of Indiana for him!
We never needed a law to claify article 3 of the GC before. Why do we need it now, and why is Bush threatening not to allow any interigations to proceed unless he is legally allowed to use torture? It seems to me that he is blackmailing us and threatening that there may be another attack unless he gets his way.
Mornin’ Christy! As always, an excellent Monday mornin’ post…
One small typo in the first para after the last blockquote:
actions of those legislators who know that it is the right thing to stand up fro for principle.
:-)
The other thing that the Democrats had better speak up about is that the Warner/McCain/Graham bill doesn’t go far enough, especially as a starting point in the negotiations. Via Balkinization:
I’m glad Warner is standing up to the Bush atrocity, but this bill isn’t anything to be proud of. The best outcome would be if President Pissy refuses to compromise and there’s a stalemate on it until after the election.
Redshift at 11 — agreed.
Sorry for the open tag. still on my first cuppa…
Twisted Martini @ 6
It shouldn’t be, but we need to work on a good political response to “you’re more interested in protecting terrorists than protecting Americans.” The real answer is that the law is being written to cover all detentions, and if our laws justify treatment by the assumption that the accused is guilty, we might as well not have trials at all. But I’m not sure that’s an “elevator pitch.”
Good Morning Christy,
Madame Prosecutor,
sitting on the jury, I buy all your arguments above about Graham, Warner, & McCain being truly unsettled about WH proposals
but then on cross, Defense Council plants a rather fertile seed of reasonable doubt by reminding us that these guys did zip, nada, nothing, f’ing zilch when WH applied signing statements to Detainee Treatment Act
so I’m gonna go with the Kabuki until someone or something convinces me otherwise . . .
it wont stop me from urging my Reps to do the right thing b/c I really don’t know what any of them are up to – just that we’ve been down this road before with these guys
Great post, Christy! I have to get to work (late again, thanks to FDL! *g*); I’ll catch you guys on the flip side.
Wonderful! Whether to legalize torture has become an “abstruse legal issue.”
No wonder this asshole chose to remain anonymous.
And where are the voices of so-called moderate Republicans who AREN’T on the Armed Services Committee. Where are Hagel, Collins, Chaffee, Spector (well ok, we KNOW where he is). And this is also an issue that Dems in Red States can get behind. Yo, Ben Nelson, I’m talkin to you. You’re up by about 300 points and you have McCain and Warner for cover. You can come out of your cave on this.
As a lawyer I don’t know which pisses me off more, the blatant attempt to gut Article 3, the attempt to deny ANYONE the right to bring up the Conventions as a cause of action, or the complete evisceration of rules of evidence that have been in effect in this country since its inception.
And btw, while I’m at it, why is (are?)this President and his supporters saying that we need to gut the rules, not so that these guys can have their day in court, but so that they can ‘be brought to justice’. I mean, is there anyone who isn’t seeing this as a preordained outcome? Even if you thnk that these guys don’t deserve the dignity of a trial (and, frankly, I’m on the fence about some of them), why does this administration, loudly and publicly, demand kangaroo courts for them.
It would seem to me that if, somehow, these guys ‘died in custody’ for some arcane reason, the result would be what the admin wanted without the political and legal fallout. I’m not saying that I approve of that, it just seems to me to be both politically and legally arrogant and contradictory to common sense, if, in fact, it is the result that drives this push. As such, I get scared that this is NOT about anyone at Gitmo, but solely about locking up and showtrialing (yeah, I know, new verb) people in the future for God-knows-what. It is very, VERY, frightening.
Sorry for the rant.
… the Democratic strategy has been to sit back and let the GOP fight it out amongst themselves, so that the Dem leadership doesn’t have to get its hands dirty on this issue …
Great job, Christy! What I’ll be telling the folks answering those Capitol Hill phones today is that we look for Dem AND Rep leadership with willfully clean hands on this issue!
– kinda like shooting their parents and throwing themselves on the mercy of The Court b/c they’re orphans, innit ?
cbl @ 15
I agree this is a reason for caution, but remember, one of the reasons the signing statements have been so awful is that they’re never clear statements of intent. They’re always “fingers crossed” statements. One could argue that he issued a signing statment said “I will interpret this in accordance with my Constitutional role” (meaning “I’ll do whatever the hell I want” but never saying it), and then Hamdan went to the Supreme Court which said “here’s what your Constitutional role is, idiot!”
While I would like to have seen a political revolt over the signing statement, I’m not sure it would have been understood by a lot of people. The two real routes for Congress to deal with an out-of-control executive are through the courts and the power of the purse.
Why the rush, Maybe when the Red Cross goes to Gitmo a lot of the reasons will come to light. I hope if he gets he way when we try him,he should not be able to see the charges against him, and the rest of his crime family.
It looks like Graham is getting the better of Hadley in this photo. Did that pan out in the discussion?
Suppose they knew they were being photgraphed? Graham looks forceful and Hadley looks defensive. Now if we can just get some democrats to look as forceful as Graham…
Thanks Christy.
I don’t like this legislation and I don’t like Specter/Feinstein wrt the illegal NSA program and whatever else we don’t know about! Renditions, torture, illegal detentions without charges, spying on citizens, restrictions and violations on our and others’ rights must end immediately.
I will contact my senators and congressman, but I have to say that it feels like telling them I want just one broken leg, not two. ;(
It sucks living in a country where the government kicks the law and people into the gutter.
Lisa in Bama @ 5
“I don’t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees…”
“I don’t think anyone anticipated that people would fly airplanes into buildings…”
“I don’t think anyone anticipated the riches of Iraq would be looted by the Iraqi people…”
“I don’t think anyone anticipated the fragility of the Baghdad power system…”
“I don’t think anyone anticipated the increased pressure on the need for documents based on her lack of record on constitutional issues…”
Just a few examples, however it might better sum up the administration if the core statement was shortened…”I don’t think”
ecb at 25 — masterly, that!
(Now where in my beloved home state ARE you?)
Redshift,
glad for us you’re running late as I agree with what you’re saying – and -
IF any of these guys had been truly morally and ethically exorcised over this issue – they would’ve done or said something – I know, I know, not a peep out of TradMed when this happened, but the whole duty, honor, country thing would have had them do something other than blowing the Chimp at the bill’s signing
Redshift @ 14
Maybe the response is, “Do you know who Ramsey Yusef is?” We did our homework, we established his guilt in a court of law, and his ass is rotting in Supermax. Same with McVeigh (actually he is rotting in hell.) Same with Eric Rudolph. These guys want to torture because they are lazy and want to take the easy way out. Fits the storyline for Fredo’s entire life.
Ditto for Bill Nelson. I didn’t think our Florida sinkholes really counted as caves until this election cycle!
I remember my mom coming home from the first of her two or three trips to Germany, just raving about how friendly and warm certain German men of her generation had been to her and her carful of traveling companions — several cases of this, in fact. And do you know, every one of these kindly German elders had been an American POW.
Goes around, comes around . . .
I didn’t think our Florida sinkholes really counted as caves until this election cycle!
Gawddawggit, FGD — if that ain’t a fact!
Twisted Martini @ 28
Ah you want an elevator comeback? How about “WE’RE more interested in protecting terrorists than in protecting Americans? WE didn’t let Osama escape and then not send in more troops to get him, YOU did. WE didn’t give the commanding general who let him escape a medal, YOU did. Now WHO’S more interested in protecting terrorists? Seems to me that would be the guy who gives medals out to people who let them get away”
How’s that?
OT, Senator Saxby “kneejerk” Chambliss claims that if the South had better intelligence, they would have won the Civil War.
I’ts the moonshine talking
Somewhat OT – In the meantime, a majority of Americans think supervision of voting is necessary, yet propriety software remains the status quo:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00220.htm
Time to take Jimmy Carter’s advice and have UN supervised US elections
I must say I find this whole matter entirely confusing. Oh, I understand what Bush is trying to accomplish. Hard to miss that.
Since everyone in the press is so tightly focused on the Republican “squabble” because it makes for drama and juice, I just have to wonder what’s really going on. While it’s nice to know that Huckleberry and Powell and Warner sound like they have ethics, now the spin is that they will be reaching some sort of compromise. This is where I get confused. What tube of lipstick would they be talking about? Are we being treated to another headfake Kabuki/object lesson about how skilled the Repubs are at getting the job done? Or are they truly tired of W’s dirty tricks despite the timing of this fiasco? Hard to know. I would love it if they held their ground and pushed this back to the dust bin of history. But I can’t help but feel that there must be some election year Rovian backstory.
I’m even more afraid of Bush’s speech on Iran to the UN tomorrow. I sure we’ll feel some deja vu. Could be the tipping point, either way.
Twisted Martini @ 33
Heh. That quote can SOOOO be taken two ways.
you know what?
the democrats HAVE to start talking about WHAT the president wants to “redefine” as “not torture”
they have to STOP calling these ‘terrorists”. they CANNOT let the administration call them ’suspected terrorists”, because THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE THAT ANYONE KNOWS IF THEY HAVE DONE ANYTHING WRONG TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
these are people who MIGHT have someone the president THINKS is a terrorist attend the same Temple
there is NO WAY the administration can claim these are terrorists or whether or not the know ANYTHING
since there is NO oversight
the democrats HAVE TO START COMPARING THESE TACTICS TO THE S.S.
the Democrats need to STOP calling it “water boarding”, and START calling it “keeping a person wanter until their lungs explode, exhaling air and inhaling water deep into their lungs
then they bring them up vomiting”
they have to STOP calling it ‘hypothermia” and START calling it
“keep them naked in freezing temperatures until they are so cold they it feels like their
the democrats have to START asking republicans if THEY think it’s torture or not to bring a person we have NO knowledge is connected with terrorism to THE BRINK OF DEATH, ORGAN FAILURE AND LOSS OF LIMB
we HAVE GOT TO STOP PUSSY FOOTING AROUND AND TALK ABOUT THESE POLICES IN THE GRAPHIC TERMS THEY REQUIRE
THAT’S what the democrats HAVE to start doing
I totally agree! Lot more layers in that quote than ole’ Saxby is capable of processing.
My humble hypothesis: McCain gets free repututation rehab with some of the McCainiacs for opposing Preznit Waterboard and gets more than a little payback for what Rove & Co did to him in SC in 2000.
Simplistic? Maybe, but you know McCain wins in any case because he’s got the high moral ground here because of the Geneva Convention to which we are signatories and his own personal experience. If Rove tries to SwiftBoat McCain on this, it’s gonna backfire in a big way.
McCain can also begin to claim the legacy and mantle of Goldwater, who becoming more of a hero to the self-styled “real” conservatives who are fed up with their own rubber-stamp idealogues.
Just sayin’. It’s a Freebie for St. John, and he’s gonna play it.
I loved this, from the NYT article:
““I don’t think anyone anticipated the avalanche of opinion that would be assembled on the other side of what seemed like a pretty abstruse legal issue,” one official said”
No one could have anticipated…the levees breaking, the insurgency, the absence of WMD, the decency of
Was a tad foggy when I left for work this morning, but the sun has appeared and it looks to be a beautiful day (most of which I will not experience the pleasure of, being stuck in my office…)
There is so much that is wrong with what Bush is doing that it’s hard to know where to start. Once again, he has presented us all with false choices, essentially threatening that if we don’t do things his way, there is nothing we can do to fight terrorism or obtain information. This is pure crap, and he needs to be called on it, and the sooner the better.
And am I the only one who wonders why he is having a meltdown over legislation that would make it easier for us to torture when he keeps saying we don’t torture? I mean, what kind of doublespeak is that? We do, we don’t – tomato-tomahto – he can’t seem to make up his mind. Well, don’t we all know that of course we are torturing people, and he and all those who have authorized it or conducted it – and who thought they would get away with it because of the anger over 9/11 – are afraid they face prosecution? Some, I fear, will have to resign if the legislation does not pass, because it simply won’t be as much fun to be in the CIA if they can’t torture people (apologies to all the good and decent people in the CIA).
As far as I am concerned, there doesn’t even need to be a compromise on this, and I do not understand why anyone seems to think that’s the appropriate response to the administration’s temper tantrum. Sometimes, the answer should just be “no” – period. If Bush thinks Geneva needs refining, let him convene a summit of the signing nations and together they can work those out.
Legislating torture is something I never thought this country would ever consider, and if we do so, I fail to see how we have any credibility on global human rights issues; this may not be a concern for this president, but that is a reflection of his inability to see past the boundaries of his own desire for power. Complicit in the president’s power grab is the Congress, which has failed miserably to exercise its constitutional responsibilities to check the executive branch. Failing once again to check the president may bring us to a tipping point that will have dire consequences.
McCain’s bill is AS BAD as Bush’s.
Read the URLs that you have posted. They make the point very clearly.
The Democrats have to speak AGAINST this bill as well as AGAINST Bush’s bill.
then, after we GRAPHICALLY describe what the president wants to do we MUST point the following out;
there is ONLY ONE WAY to turn the tide agaisnt terrorism, terrorsim isn’t a people, it’s not a country, it’s not a place
it’s a strategy
there is ONLY ONE WAY to turn the tide
and that is to do what the president CLAIMED he wanted to do
‘win the hearts and minds” of people
SUPPOSEDLY we are TRYING to win the hearts and minds of Iraqi’s and the entire middle east so they DON’T become terrorists, we are TRYING to show by demonstration democracy is better then what they had and we are SUPPOSED to be showing our government is better the Saddam’s government, and that MIGHT prevent children from becoming terrorists…no need according to you
HOW THE HELL CAN WE WIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THESE PEOPLE WHEN THE PRESIDENT DOES THIS?
Twisted Martini @ 33
707!!!, Sax ol’ man
Martini, thet guy keeps a-goin’ on thetaway, we all gone need us a drank!
Our response needs to be that by abolishing torture it protects all Americans especially our military. We also need to start using the word integrity. We can also say that we this should be part of the war on terrorism in that it will create less terrorists. Those guys get out of captivity after having been tortured and they will be more likely to take up a terrorist cause. “Causing terror in others creates more terror on earth.”
inneresting quote here from a Zakaria article on this very subject:
(emphasis mine)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14…../newsweek/
pretty groovy, eh? The US has been behaving in an uncivilized manner. Thank you SCOTUS for forcing the paradigm shift.
OT but Jim Lehrer gives us fair and balanced NPR style. A Time Magazine reporter Ratnesar and GOP insider Jim Pinkerton discussing the torturing boy king.
klyde at 47 — where?
WNYC-FM/AM in NYC. 93.9 or 820. I think they stream at http://www.WNYC.org
Have any of our soldiers been renditioned, illegally detained or tortured lately? Do we know?
Surely not 14,000…
Can you imagine the outrage if another sovereign country was grabbing our citizens and spiriting them away to black holes?
lotus @ 26
jackson (jackson proper)…and where are you located
TrueProgressive at 42 — At no point do I say in any portion of the article that the McCain/Warner/Graham bill is the way to go. And I do not post URLs without reading the articles therein first. So I’m not sure what your point is on this…
I remind everyone again – Hitler never broke a German law. He invariably got the Bundestag to pass laws legalizing what he was doing – sound familiar?
Christy, you have mail from me.
I am more and more convinced that this is coming from fear of War Crimes culpability, and not from any desire to “clarify” Geneva. It is so simple to understand that our interpreting of Geneva just opens the door to other nations doing the same, and doing so in a way that would likely subject our people to inhumane and degrading treatment, and Bush seems to be saying that our interpretation will set a standard that other nations will follow. Problem is that we no longer have that kind of clout or moral imperative, especially when the standard we propose to set is many levels removed from what Geneva provides.
The other problem is that I am not at all convinced that “clarifying” Geneva would actually function in a way that would get those who authorized and administered torture off the War Crimes hook – they don’t get to be exempt just because we pass legislation that says they are.
on CSPAN now – State of Congressional Oversight
Center for American Progress:
Thurber, James A. Director, American University, Center for Cong. and Pres. Studies
Lilly, Scott Senior Fellow, Center for American Progress
A conference discusses congressional oversight of the executive branch and evaluates the job that Congress has done in recent years.
I would like to see the democrats start asking questions like this;
did you know the president himself authorized what we know is torture and now wants to redefine the term?
did you know after congress passed a law stating that no, he had to abide by the law and renounce torture, he couldn’t torturethat would be bad for Anerican soldiers
AND our own national security, the president made a statement hwere he actually claimed yes, he could torture
he claimed didn’t have to obey our law, did you know that?
did you know the president claimed he could arrest someone and THEN write a new law specifically for that person to justify that arrest?
I want the democrats to invite the question;
doesn’t any of this remind you of someone?….it should
did you know the president claims he can write the law AFTER the person is arrested…that he can just make up any law he wanted without any legislative protocol…ANY law
for instance, did you know the prsident calims he can make it illegal to pray on sunday and nobody can say his law is not valid…NOBODY…that is what he is trying to claim
did you know the person arrested would never know the law he was charged?…he would never have the right to prove he didn’t do what the president CLAIMS he did…the president is allowed to keep the person from EVER proving he didn’t do it
did you know neither the person the president wants to torturem not that persons lawyer would never know the charge or see any evidence, neither could never mount a defense, neither could never gather evidence to disprove the claims even if no crime was ever commited
I want democrats to start asking more questions like that, and this;
“did you know that the president rescinded the law that holds Americans responsible for any crime in Iraq?…even cold bloooded murder, even rape of children in front of their parents
for instance, now an American can drive down the highway in Iraq, he can shoot the parents in a car on a family drive with their children…he can do this while laughing with friends, talking and joking,…they can film what they aer doing, set it to the music of Elvis Presley, they can post the video on the internet, without fear of prosecution
did you know the president rescinded the law that made this a crime and there is no law to hold them to account..
did you know this already happened?
fact
“did you know the president is right now, as we speak, trying to make it illegal if the press exposes crime against America by people in government?
he actually wants to prosecute anyone that exposes crime if it’s a government official that commits that crime
“did you know the highest levels in the administration right now are members of a fraternity that has been trying to attack Iraq since before the president came into office?
.did you know they published their plan, internet dated, stating the country needs another pearl harbor to convince the American people attacking Iraq was a good idea?…and that they wanted global unrest…did you know this?
this country is changing, we are all puppets, our strings being pulled like marionettes, our children will live in the world that is being created by people that are pulling strings of puppetts and marionettes
the people in the administration, right now, as we speak, are the very people that projected their plan to create worldwide unrest in order to put planetary treasure in their personal pockets…they are in office right now, this is not a theory, it’s not an opinion, it’s a fact
Christy wrote–
Tell your elected officials that torture should not be an officially sanctioned policy of the United States of America — that General George Washington had it right from the nation’s founding. Tell them that if a public trial was good enough for the Nazis, it ought to be good enough for the terrorists against whom we fight today.
Let’s not forget that, in fact, public trials for terrorists were used during the Clinton Administration — and very effectively — to bring known perpetrators of the 1993 WTC bombing, the Oklahoma City bombing and the 1998 US embassy bombings to justice.
In each case, the suspects received lengthy to life-without-parole sentences to death.
Those trials demonstrated to the world that when we say “justice for all,” we mean it.
Why do you think the media hasn’t brought all this up?
NO COMPROMISES, please. “The White House is going to have to give ground…” B.S.
This White House always wins by taking such extreme positions, then getting everyone to yell at each other and then “compromise”. There is no compromise when it comes to torture!
STAND UP AND GIVE A REALLY EASY TO UNDERSTAND ANSWER…NO!!!!
ecb – combine your list with OJS’s comments on “abtruse” and that was pretty much my reaction – then the ohohohohohohoh waitaminnit, did I tell you George Schultz really really likes us too?”
Makes it sound like vote for homecoming queen.
Christy – it’s a lovely post, but I am very concerned that, except for a few places, the only thing getting play/discussion is torture vis a vis the Conventions. There is a tremendously larger picture and the door has blown wide open for some minor accomodation on torture and then “rejoicing” over the “victory” as a systemic evisceration of both our criminal justice and military justice codes becomes enshrined.
Graham sees a win/win IMO He can raise this squawk, appease some of his military friends that he is trying to do something, offer up a singleton or deuce area of compromise for the WH to still get all the amnesty it wants and continue with secretive abuses that have no review. But he thinks – hey, Bush won’t be around that long. The military wants to clean up, so it will some as soon as he’s gone and with the amnesty and no judicial review, no habeas, we won’t have to re-live the abuses that have already happened and tarnish the country and military with them.
He just forgets the most central posit of both criminal and military justice – accountability.
Bush has NOT gone with military commissions under the much waved banner (that Graham endorses) that the ideologic confrontation as well as the physical one is a “war” which makes the commissions the “logical” response Instead, he’s gone for this for two reasons.
First is one that has some minor aspects that need review and consideration – but which has been twisted and abused beyond recognition. The issue is that with the kinds of significant, paramilitary attacks/threats posed by some of the “terrorist” groups (and BTW- if someone checks the definitions and lack thereof for what makes a “terroris” group in the US, THERE is a frighteningly vague matter – if there are worries over vagueness) there is a perceived (and possibly/probably real – it’s just the level of depravity of what passes for DOJ’s practice of law in this area leave me with no trust) need to be able to detain someone, even if there has not been a crime that can be pointed to with clarity.
The only place this concept comes to any fruition under our common law heritage – with its strong habeas corpus tradition – is “battlefield” detentions by the military. It is the only place where the ability to detain without charges until a “resolution of conflict” can be found.
So what Bush&Co have done is to declare the world a battlefield, an unending battle against terror, and thereby to justify detention with no charges until the memory of man runneth not to the contrary. That’s where military detention aspects come in. However, standard military justice aspects didn’t give him what he wanted, even there so –
Second concept. I’m CIC, I can make the military do anything I want Throw in CIA as a part of DOD. With this, he has said, by fiat, that he can get rid of the Geneva Conventions requirements
a) for regularly consituted tribunals for trials of charges (what went up on Hamdan) and
b) similar standards for review of status under the conventions (which means, if someone claims they were mistakenly rounded up and are not a “battlefield” or “illegal combatant” detainee – but are, say a civilian or a POW etc.
Now those have been, not only requirements of the Geneva Conventions but of our UCMJ – and Bush just ditched. Entirely. And pretty much wants to continue with that. NOt only that, he also went with getting rid of requirements
c) relating to juveniles
d) disallowing tortured and coerced testimony (and big heads up here – this is happening in civil courts as we speak with Salah and Padilla – Padilla just lost round one on exclusions of torture testimony)
e) disallowing hearsay etc (and here, after years, they laughingly use the ‘battlefield’ justification – no one can stop and collect evidence on the battlefield, doncha know – google the combatant status review tribunals and look at the kangaroo court approach for this)
f) requiring that a charged party know the charges and the evidence against them
Ok – so that is all pretty friggin bad, but then what? Then he and DOJ say – hey, isn’t this cool, we can do all kinds of stuff here we can’t do in the real world, where they won’t just let us create our own reality – so let’s also say, that if the President closes his eyes and clicks his heels three times, US citizens wont’ be in criminal courts anymore.
We can kidnap them in this country and ship covertly – without nofitication to anyone – to GITMO or wherever, and with no habeas apply the exact same “no evidence, no need to charge to detain, torture testimony is fine, etc.” standards.
The frightening thing is how many of these aspects the Graham Warner bill is willing to keep. To then say,they will compromise with the WH to dilute – that has to just grab you in the gut, even if the torture aspects were not so overwhelming.
Take on no amnesty and take away any remote kind of standing for someone to have direct recourse and you also get a situation where anything can be violated and the only recourse is if the Chain of Command orders prosecution of the violations – the Chain of Command headed by the President who says he can do anything he wants whenever he wants
Whatever happened to Kansas doesn’t matter, because we are not in Kansas anymore.
The fact that people are willing work for these men and pony up their credentials behind this kind of mockery and perversion is astounding.
But even the Grahams (and I think he absolutely and clearly sees each of these issues – whereas McCain seems to be a relatively clueless figurehead who wants to just keep his gravitas on torture) are primarily concerned with not haveing things come out that will make people look bad – not really about fixing what the President has done. I’m sure he thinks that the military will eventually get around to fixing some of it when Bush is gone.
When has that ever worked for any military – let’s just keep going down an immoral subverted path with no accountability for years, bc someday will have a better leader and then it will miraculously all be better?
But the bigger issue is – when has that ever worked for any civilian governement? To hand its citizens (btw – keep in mind the “enemy combatant” status carries with it a SLEW of thing that have never been chargeable military crimes – this was Steven’s point on the conspiracy charge in Hamdan) over to blackhole military tribunals answerable only to a CIC who has no oversight?
[/rant]
but we need to work on a good political response to “you’re more interested in protecting terrorists than protecting Americans
I never get CW and mainstream responses correct – but I can tell you my response.
We have absolutely and unequivocally screwed up several times already because no one cares about evidence – we’ve kidnapped and tortured people who just had “sound alike” names and held for years at GITMO people that we knew immediately had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism of any kind, but GWB didn’t want to look bad by letting them go
WHY do YOU think that it is ok for Bush to kidnap and torture innocent people and if you think he shouldn’t why are you not in favor of making him follow the rules that keep that from happening?
LORD, I hope this goes through this time!
ecb, ah — that’s what I gathered last night. I’m a native of Amory, now transplanted to New Smyrna Beach, FL. My mama’s best friend lived, and I’ve visited her, for many years in Jackson(now she’s at the Orchard in Ridgeland). Would you be so kind as to go have a Sal & Phil’s crawfish po’ boy for lunch for me? Pul-leeeeze?
O-specific-T but mighty valuable:
If y’all haven’t seen the tail end of the last thread, don’t miss lhp’s 367 and Anne’s 410 (if you know what’s good for us)!
Even if Bush loses this current battle, will the proposed “McCain” law that wins still provide retroactive exemption from prosecution for those who have approved, ordered or practiced torture in the name of America thus far?
I hope not.
oh and btw -
since when is getting the truth less important than forcing someone to say what you want to hear with torture?
I think all this playing fast and loose with the law is about slithering out of any chance of being tried for War Crimes. There’s quite alot of very bloody hands involved here, I could see a big old domino effect if all the applicable laws were actually applied to this administration,congress,the war profiteers,the media,and all the other helpful minions who loves them some blood,war and torture.
The rest is bread and circuses and shiny things.
Mary, I love the way you cut right to the heart of the issues, even if what you reveal usually scares me to death…
I am pretty certain that your inclusion of “lawmakers” and “principles” was a typo?
as we have seen all cave to the meat puppet and his dog dick
(nods in agreement with Anne’s 66)
Mary @ 64
I think any interest in the truth vanished sometime in December, 2000, when GWB was certified the winner of the election. Truth continues on extended leave.
Torture is like pornography, in the sense that it’s very difficult to define in words, and yet we all know it when we see it. If it looks, smells, and feels like humiliating treatment George, then it probably is. And we don’t want US soldiers having any part in it. Full stop.
Mary, I’m fixing to email your 60 (just with a couple of typo-fixes) to Bill Nelson’s aide Woolfork, if you don’t mind. Gonna preface it with chunks of Christy’s post . . .
I sure want to see you on the Supreme bench one day, lady. Boy, would I feel safer then than now!
Mary @ 60
Great stuff! Picking up where you left off . . .
But George, don’t stop with the foreign terrorists – keep us safe here at home from the crime in our streets . . .
Why not allow confessions extracted under “agressive interogation” to be admissible in court?
Why not immunize the FBI and local police from any legal liability for any inadvertent injuries and deaths that might occur while prisoners are in custody?
Why not allow trials with secret evidence that the criminals can’t see (wouldn’t want to tip off the other criminals!)?
Why not legislate away Miranda?
Why not do away with search warrants altogether?
George just doesn’t get it. For more than two centuries, we measured ourselves by the yardsticks of justice and fairness; George measures himself by what he can get away with. For more than two centuries, we prided ourselves on having the legal system that other nations could aspire to; George prides himself on creating a legal system that sinks to the lowest possible standard, not the highest.
For more than two centuries, our nation has had its lapses in judgment, but it always seemed to climb its way out of the hole it had dug for itself. Our efforts to live up to high standards were imperfect, but the standards remained, and we continued to strive toward them.
Until George Bush.
Now he pushes the bar of justice lower and lower. To him, it’s not about justice, but vengeance. It’s about squashing any who would oppose him. It’s about ranting at any who who dare to question him. To him, it’s all about him.
But it’s not about him and it’s not about the terrorists. It’s about us, our nation, and the standards of justice by which we live.
I’ve had enough. How about you?
OT
“The source, who knows both White House political adviser Karl Rove and former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, told me that the two men are much closer than many Washington insiders understand, that they developed a friendship and a working relationship when Bush was recruiting Colin Powell to be Secretary of State.” (Consortium News)
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001545.php
jinny (73), they’re all partners in crime.
Oooohhh. Karl Rove is in the tri-state area today raising money for PT911 liar Tom Kean’s son. So there is the payback for political cover.
Wildly, ridiculously OT, but if I don’t do this now before I get busy with Nelson’s office, I’ll forget.
Here’s something from ToL that we can’t wait to ask NZ Expat about:
Lawdamussy, you’d think it’s Goopers in Florida.
Geneva Convention ain’t broke. Don’t fix it.
Has anyone analyzed Hadley’s talking points (used on all shows on which he appeared on Sunday) to the effect that “interpreting” Common Article 3 would not cause other countries in the future to mistreat American military POWs because the proposed legislation does not apply “to men and women in uniform”? And his other point that they are “reinterpreting because there hasn’t been an interpretation in the past” (not a direct quote)?
It seems to me that this needs to be discussed on several levels:
- Is he correct that Common Article 3 has no relationship to soldiers in uniform?
- What about future mistreatment of US Delta Force and similar special forces commandos?
- Same for CIA people (such as we used in Afghanistan starting the war there)?
- If we “interpret” it for people out of uniform, why won’t the next country “interpret” other parts of the Geneva Conventions on prisoners of war legislatively? Don’t we set a bad tone?
Etc.
I just feel that Hadley has not been dissected anywhere I have seen. Maybe I haven’t looked in the right places.
This is not an abstruse legal issue. For the so-called “Christians” on the right, what part of this is hard to understand?
Matthew 7:12: “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them”
For other versions of this from other religions going back 4,000 years, see here http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm
I’m glad you wrote about this, but how does it fit with John Dean’s article with Graham lying in his amicus brief to the Supreme Court about the congressional record? Graham & Kyl. That was a situation where he went to GREAT LENGHTS to influence whether prisoners had the right to see charges and evidence against them, the very topic for which he argued so eloquently on the other side on yesterdays FTN.
Will someone explain this to me? Did the supreme court’s decision REALLY wake him up and make him say, damn this IS important? Did he have a religious unconversion? Did he get my letter telling him that I had onced considered him responsible for singlehandedly perserving america’s faith in the military after Abu Gharaib? Or is he just playing a part? Designed to elevate McCain, or make whatever legislation they come up with seem less like crap. I am wracking my brain. Let’s get the team working on this, okay?
How would Bush respond if another country responded with legislation of their own to specifically exclude American citizens (and only American citizens) from the expected standards of protection under the GC?
These are not the values of America, but they are the values of the Confederacy, which is what this administration reminds me of like no other. America’s first national confederate government. The gratuitous massacre of black soldiers at Fort Pillow TN and Saltville VA comes to mind.
Peterr, I think that’s the logical extension of Bush’s opinion that he has unlimited and unchecked power during “wartime;” anyone who doubts that hasn’t been paying attention. He’s breached one front with the NSA program, and another with black site prisons and application of “enemy combatant” status, all of which he is going all-out to have the Congress legitimize, in direct conflict with the courts. And if they bend to his will, there will be more and more and more that he demands – and gets.
What most people do not see is that Bush is taking an “off-label” approach to things, but in a different way than doctors do with drugs. His “off-label” approach is finding ways to get around established laws and rights and principles under the guise of “protecting” us. It’s the whole fear thing, again, and people still do not seem to understand that the principle of “if you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear” is vanishing under the subjective application of Bush’s terror policies.
It seems Bush’s ultimate fear is that he can be tried for violations of Article III.
DrSinker,
Some politician who’s name I can’t recall said when differentiating between art and pornography that you could tell the difference because pornography “gives you a hard-on.” I suspect that the little boy who used to while away the hours blowing up frogs and kittens with firecrackers and who then became president has a similar physiological response when orchestrating and presumably viewing the torture of detainees. It’s not surprising to me that a person who’s childhood was spent killing and maiming small animals for entertainment would come to be defined by human torture as an adult. If he weren’t president, he would likely be one of those creepy figures one reads about in the newspaper who kills and mutilates people for sport, a Ted Bundy if you will. We have not yet seen the worst that this man can do, and I fear that as the clock winds down on his time of absolute power he will make the absolute most of the time he has left to satisfy his sadistic impulses.
new thread – oops, it’s gone now
OT – from threads back, then I have to go
meta if you are around, the issue with children comes up several ways. There have been the children in the mass roundups. One of the military whistleblowers – not the “pictures” guy, but a young serviceman (Provenance? something similar) also discussed that children of suspects were taken and put into hypothermia or other abusive conditions to get them to talk. There were also several reports of wives and families being taken and notes being left that suspects would have to turn themselves in to secur the release of their wives and/or children. Given the societal assumptions about women taken into US Soldiers’ custody -this was also pretty much a death sentence for the women they collected.
This is one reason I’d like to know if Rumsfeld ever responded to the the subpoena request. Many of these stories came out in the hearings with Shays/Kucinich for whistleblowers (and with the Insp. General’s reps batting their eyes like Bambi and saying they didn’t know anything about any of it but if they did, they couldn’t investigate anyway – that was more in the time of Schmitz and it makes the pdf that Christy/lhp put up a few days agot that much more interesting). The fact that ANY committee has FINALLY subpoenaed ANYONE in the admin for anything should be huge news, but the subpoena to Rumsfeld has fallen off the face of the planet. I think the return date was supposed to be mid-July.
No one seems to ask Shays about any of it either. No one seems to ask Haynes, the DOD Gen COunsel who probably would be overseeing that doc production, how he is finding time to strong arm JAG when he should be producing docs. Ones that speak to chain of command authorizations.
In addition to all those “on the ground” issues, several books and sources very openly discuss that, with KSM for example, we didn’t stop with taking him into custody, we took his wife and children as well – I think two or three kids, all under 10. And there was an ok to use threats to his children to get him to talk. WOuldn’t that make YOU proud – to be the guy who gets to threaten a 5 or7 yo child that is already in a terrifying disorienting round up? I have to think that there are several CIA who don’t really feel the love for where things have gone on their watch.
Go look at the “hostages” reference in the Geneva Conventions as well. But in the end, in the military just like under our criminal statutes, it doesn’t matter how blatant the violations of law if the DOJ cannot even begin to be relied upon or looked to for prosecution. And here’s the real scoop on that. It only takes so much bravery to stand up to power – it takes, however, a moral courage that not many have to stand up to your former friends and colleagues – to people who you probably know for a fact have done tremendously worthwhile things for this country, and be willing to put them in jail for something they did to a scummy piece of filth that plots and carries out deaths of innocents all the time.
We don’t have anyone with that courage anywhere. Period. And that’s why they let the snowball keep rolling.
a pretty abstruse legal issue
Oh holy fuck: it’s TORTURE! America doesn’t DO torture, just the criminals of this world, which I am sick to death of being lumped in with, thangkyewverramuch. These people have no understanding of what it means to be an American, and yet they’re in charge, and we all put them there. So maybe the definition of what it means to be us has changed.
Well hell, I know it has.
Christy, everything you say about the Geneva Convention is right on. I think, however, that those of us with understanding hearts have to get a grip on the current reality, which is to say that we’re well and truly screwed. One more rigged election, a nuclear war against a country that never did anything to us, and two more years of Bush running the country into the ground mean there won’t be any Christmas in 2008, no matter who wins.
Bush is taking us over the cliff, morally/financially/spiritually, and we’ll have to find another way to cope amidst the wreckage.
George Bush wants to be dictator — he wants to be an absolute ruler.
In fact, comparing him to King George III does King George a disservice — King George wanted to undermine Parliament, but he did not ignore it.
George Bush wants the powers of a King — a French King.
George Bush is Connecticut Blue Blood pretend cowboy, who wants to be a French King.
Tortoise @
81
Peter Gregory (NBC) asked the same question (in different words of course) and Bush refused to answer saying that it was a “hypothetical” question. Of course it is. That is exactly the point. But then he backed off and said that he would expect a foreign country to use the same standards as we do, presumably meaning yes, they can torture American POW’s.
This man is a real piece of work. Babs must be proud of the frog torturer. According to family legend Babs was not above some pretty vigorous ear-pulling and head smacking of the younger set in her family. They turned out real fine.
dratty @
18
Lovely morning, all. (Tin foil hat on) ANYONE. You said ANYONE. IANAL, and I have been sort of assuming that ‘these guys’ are ‘those guys’, but is there any reason why this couldn’t be applied to ‘us guys? Do not google white railroad cars shackles, I said *do not* ‘? (/ tin foil hat)
reposted for Mary, from the tail end of the “Sand Gets In Your Eyes” thread yesterday . . .
Mary -
Mary on the Book Salon thread @5:24:
I think I speak for most of the FDL crew on this: It’s obvious you have gotten over your fears.
Let the record show:
Mary @ 106
Mary, you are indeed a treasure around these parts. And not at all nuts.
Orangejumpsuit @ 90
Was it Nixon who said that the one character trait of Barbara Bush he admired was that ’she really knew how to hate?’
PS to my #90: I should have added that this was at the press conference just last week.
orangejumpsuit @ 90
That was very contentious between W and gregory. It sounded like W lost it. He came across like someone who was going to take his ball and go home if congress did not immediately give him what he wanted. It was almost like “Well if they do that, then I can’t protect America.”
What a jerk.
An Angry Old Broad @ 65
I agree. the one thing the Pugs on both sides seem to agree on is that they can submit legislation that will ensure that our CIA officers aren’t prosecuted. I take that to also include our “civil officers” such aas Messrs. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Hadley etc. (BTW it was FASCINATING) to watch Negraponte defend the “program” yesterday on Fox news while claiming ignorance of anything in it.)
They don’t, IMHO, care about whether or not they can waterboard in the future. They DO care about whether the waterboarding they have done in the past can be prosecuted.
What is also interesting is that at no point do they claim that the harsh tactics used on prisoners have been effective; just that the “program” has been. This suggests to me that IF good, credible information was indeed obtained by the alleged terrorists–a big IF, that–it may have come from benign tactics as much as from harsh ones. The administration is stuck on that one–if they say that confessions were obtained by tactics found to be illegal, fly away Sheik Badguy. If they say they were obtained by benign methods, then WTF are we talking about here? This is the corner they have painted themselves into. It is one they should inhabit– face forlornly pointed away from the rest of the class–until it is time to go home.
windje @ 93
That may true, but another quote I read had him saying “she is really vindictive.” You know, “vindictive” is stronger than “hate.” You can hate someone but still not wish or do harm to them. Vindictive means you hate and want to hurt them.
Peterr @72 – that is exactly it. Especially bc unlike real military violations, terrorism as a crime has all kinds of other criminal tentacles – drugs, money laundering, slavery, etc.
So why not allow someone with drug charges to be treated as an enemy combatant. And if some hearsay connection to someone having a met someone who knows someone who knows bin laden is enough to be an enemy combatant – why not roundups from Mosques here in the US. Or churches for that matter – after the Afghanistan/Soviet conflict a lot of people tied to the al-Qaeda principals made speaking tours that included churches here.
It’s a tremendous mess they are creating.
Now add on, what if someone does want to cooperate with the US? Knowing that just coming forward and opening their mouth can mean that they end up sent to GITMO for torture bc someone might assume they have more info or might want to ‘verify’ with a little torture — how will we ever get any trust and any sources?
And all the people who KNOW better either sit mum or go along.
Some days I just can’t believe it. Worse days I can
*****
lotus – please fix typos if you send something – I’m in rant mode (and have sticky keys with crumbs under my keyboard) and am trying to get other things done too – have to head to barn then work any minute now, but
channeling norske
keep the faith and make sure the foot they shoot is their own
ok, now new thread
Christy,
Thank you for wrotong about this in such an informative and pragmatic way. My emotions become so embroiled over this issue that I doubt my own ability to put togeth coherent thoughts.
For you and other who are interest – a couple of things came out over the weekend.
First – given the way even the “so called” compromise bill is written, it is possible that those writing it and voting for it open themselves up to “War Crime” cahrges, per this article in “The Jurist”: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/for…..litary.php
Also, Lord Goldsmith, Britains Attorney General, fired a warning shot to Bu$shCo that the “civilized world” WILL INSIST on accoutability: http://politics.guardian.co.uk…..83,00.html
So if your Senator or Congresscritter leans toward the Torture and CYA abomination, and they are so craven as to have lost all Principle, Morals and are ethically bankrupt, you can remind them their own asses are on the line.
Christy – a question for you – Is their anyway “We the People” can file class action law suit against a list of the Bu$hCO cabal and sue back some of the war profits these twisted, criminally insane Psychopaths have stolen from OUR treasury?
I woke up this morning assuming we were headed for a hotly contested election, but then I read The Note, and now I understand. The Republicans, led by boy genius Karl Rove, are simply going to use the latest research in the psychology of political advertising to construct negative ads portraying Dems as weak on terror. That, combined with the Republicans legendary GOTV effort, will allow them to hold both houses comfortably. It’s a done deal. The Republicans have already won.
Wow…, well that was interesting… I just spent 22 minutes on the phone with a staffer for Senator Smith (R-OR). We debated the merits of Bush’s and McCain’s plans for re-defining artical 3 of the GC. I have to say I have never had that experience before. When I usually call it is a quick 2 minute here is where I stand call. So, Smith is “leaning” toward the McCain style approach, but is still basically keeping his options open on where he stands. I am so glad I had FDL to resource during the debate. I mean, come on, I had only had one cup of coffee. One little tidbit, the staffer tried to use the red herring about how muslims consider interrogation by female officers tortuous, therefore, we need to define what is torture so we don’t have all that grey area. Of course I told him that was a red herring and certainly no one in the international community was upset over that issue. How about waterboarding??? I also pointed out that if the president won’t state what tactics we are employing because he doesn’t want to tell the enemy what we are doing, then how are we supposed to debate actual techniques that we can use that aren’t torture? It makes no sense!!! Argh…. Whew….I’m awake now!
Christy,
Thank you for writing about this in such an informative and pragmatic way. My emotions become so embroiled over this issue that I doubt my own ability to put together coherent thoughts.
For you and others who are interested – a couple of things came out over the weekend.
First – given the way even the “so called” compromise bill is written, it is possible that those writing it and voting for it open themselves up to “War Crime” charges, per this article in “The Jurist”: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/for…..n-military .php
Also, Lord Goldsmith, Britain’s Attorney General, fired a warning shot to Bu$shCo that the “civilized world” WILL INSIST on accoutability: http://politics.guardian.co.uk…..83,00.html
So if your Senator or Congresscritter leans toward the Torture and CYA abomination, and they are so craven as to have lost all Principle, Morals and are ethically bankrupt, you can remind them their own asses are on the line.
Christy – a question for you – Is their anyway “We the People” can file class action law suit against a list of the Bu$hCO cabal and sue back some of the war profits these twisted, criminally insane Psychopaths have stolen from OUR treasury?
George Waterboarding Bush
nuff said
Richard @
53
It’s like the Story of O, she is asked for and gives permission for each succeeding stage of degradation. Yuck!! Yuck!! I need a shower!
I can hear it now…”I don’t think anyone anticipated that torture tactics would be used on captured American soldiers…”
Mary for Attorney General!
George Bush has “joked” on more than one occasion that America would be easier to runb if it were a dictatorship.
Note this CNN report from 12/18/00 when W was president-elect:
CHRIS BLACK, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Frank, President- elect George W. Bush came to Capitol Hill today for the first time since the election intending to listen to congressional leaders, the bipartisan congressional leadership. But he also made it clear to them, in more than two and a half hours of meetings, that he intends to stand by his tax cut proposal and other planks in his campaign agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that there were going to be some times where we don’t agree with each other. But that’s OK. If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.
And we thought he was kidding.
Any questions now, how it happened in Germany?
I thought not.
Christy: On C-Span 2 is Louis Wilson Imngram, author of “A Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution” (not yet published).
Liberalism is not just a meager individual struggle for a free lifestyle; it is a long political struggle that began in the Middle Ages against the arbitrary power of kings and bishops.
To torture, to imprison without trail, to wage war with only pro forma debate, to spy and surveil without oversight, to disregard laws passed by parliament, to defy the judiciary are all assertions of the rights of an arbitrary sovereign power. This is in fundamental opposition to the liberal tradition that stretches back through JS Mill to Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, to Adam Smith and the Manchester Capitalists, John Locke, David Hume to Martin Luther and the Protestants.
The Cheney administration represents a deeply radical political movement that is nothing less than counter-revolutionary. We have seen their arguments -about crisis, stability and the need for a powerful sovereign- before. Sadly, they are similar to the anti-liberal, anti-Enlightenment politics that emerged in Germany after WWI. They are un-American in the most profound sense.
That American politicians are so feeble in the defense of the long liberal tradition is interesting and will be a subject for future historians and political scientists. That they are so institutionally unwise is disturbing.
The Constitution does not work at all. The reasons are four: an apathetic Public, a snivelling Congress,an audacious Judiciary, and a socialist-promoting Press.
Public apathy results from the complexity of issues, the low calibre of candidates, and the mis-direction of the Press. The school, system plays a part in keeping the public un-educated with respect to The Constitution and American History (and everything else for that matter -try reading, vocabulary and grammar). The public is too busy with sport and entertainment to find time for mind-expanding reading.
The sniveling Congress results from the lure of retirement benefits beyond one’s wildest imagination! And the lure of staff to do the real work. And from disclosure laws deliberately designed to keep well-educated, economically successful people from running for public office. Whose business is the source of their wealth anyway? What we get for our trouble is a bunch of posturing clowns who can’t find their buttox with both hands. It ttakes a staff of major proportions to create any semblance of intelligence in most of them.
The audacious Judiciary is the result of our industry of law mills which grind out great numbers of superflous lawyers which are entirely fungible–one is just like the other except for the niggardly minority that are principled. These marauders of The Law are taught that The Law is really their own “expert” personal opinion aggrandized by the citation of some maxim chosen or created for the occasion. Your rights are never safe when there’s a lawyer in the picture.
The role of the Press is common knowledge. If there is an anti-American cause to which it can repair, that’s where you will find it. I refer, of course, to the so-called “major media” –the press that claims it is mainstream, that claims the rest of us are hopeless boobs in the backwaters of American lunacy. Actually, the vast majority of Americans are out of the “mainstream” as defined by the Fourth Estate. Which makes one wonder just what the “mainstream” can be. Well, actually, it is mainstreaming on socialism, the elites’ “ism” of choice –although, like most drugs, they have other names for it.
Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. One has to be stupid or insane to keep on promoting failure. Or arrogant! Or ounting on an apathetic public.
http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/How_d…..ution_work
“We are better than this, as a nation.”
That is the central point. Are we better than this? Why should we — why should anyone — think we are the least bit different from all the brutal, mindless thugs in history?
Here, our history does not help us. We are different from the worst only if we act differently from the worst, today.
Umm…how come he’s the only President who ever needed clarification on Article III?
Anne @ 55
IMHO: Bingo. At his presser last week W kept talking about “professionals” needing to know they are not breaking the law, so we need to “clarify” Article 3… Stinking BS, it’s all CYA panic before they lose the House.
There is nothing wrong with our Constitution or our criminal laws. There is no need to amend Geneva. If this little man is given approval to torture how long until American citizens are subject to the same treatment as enemy combatants? I’d say about fifteen minutes.
Spotlighted this regionally with this message:
Why would they be asking for *retroactive* immunity, if they didn’t already know they were breaking laws left and right?
What part of the Geneva Conventions is unclear to them, when *no one else*, not even people watching ‘Hogan’s Heroes’, has had problems
understanding it?
What part of ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ did they not learn in Sunday school?
What kind of reputation do they wish to have, and what kind of world are they planning to leave for our children and grandchildren?
What kind of criminals do we have running our government now?
Whatever bill they pass, compromise or not, Bush will attach a signing statement which says he can interperet the law any way he wants to. That will make number 761, or something like that.
ABA Panel Challenges Bush Signing Statements
Thanks for reminding us to make the calls. I just finished calling two senators and my representative. It is evident this president does not support the constitution and separation of powers. And his signing statements verify the fact.
Concerned U.S. citizens must be made to realize that this debate over “torture” and the Geneva Conventions is just part of the overall “hostile takeover” plot of the neo-con Republicans.
After further thought, I believe I know what BushCo has planned for 2007.
Several points:
1) BushCo gaining control (if possible) of all of our nation’s military forces, including state national guard units, cutting out the middlemen and women, our nation’s state governors. ALL Republican and Democratic governors have signed a letter demanding that the House remove this provision from a bill being considered.
2) Building $385 million worth of prisons around the country, for immigration and “other purposes,” purposes to be determined by BushCo.
3) Air Force Secretary Wynne stated the other day that crowd control tactics using non-lethal weapons should be used first to control crowds in the United States before being used on unruly crowds overseas. Wonderful. U.S. citizens being used as guinea pigs again.
4) BushCo seems hell-bent for leather to bomb suspected nuclear sites in Iran either later this year or early in 2007.
So, what would happen next year if BushCo gets us into another conflict that costs hundreds of billions of dollars, leads to the death of hundreds of thousands of people and ends up devastating the U.S. economy?
Anti-war protests would surely erupt in U.S. cities, with protestors calling for the heads of all those in BushCo responsible.
Thus, BushCo needs in place certain things in case this all unfolds as I predict. 1) Absolute, imperial presidential control of our nation’s military forces, including our nation’s national guard units. 2) More prison cells run by a company supportive of BushCo. 3) Crowd control weapons to break up any riots in response to what BushCo has done.
Plus, when you add in the expansion of illegal surveillance of U.S. citizens by BushCo, it becomes very clear that 2007 will be a pivotal year in our American democracy.
Come 2008, will America still be a democracy or will we be a right-wing, banana republic dictatorship ruled by Bushco?
Oh, and John Yoo, he’s one of the architects behind this totalitarian, anti-democracy madness, along with all the neo-con nutjobs at PNAC.
Is this “the end of the world as we know it”? Is this to be the end of our beloved democracy?
Hadley said yesterday that he does not know what humiliation means. Perhaps he should be made to join the naked pyramid at Abu ghraib?
katie Jensen @
45
How about “torture is Terrorism”?
Mary @
60
I am weeping..