
Ah, there's nothing like other people's brushes with power to bring out the self-righteous twerp in some folks. I was just waking up and splashing around in Technorati-land this morning when I came across this homesick abortion of a post by hitherto unknown to me blogger "Liza" of "Culture Kitchen".
To wit:
When I wrote Jane Hamsher is an idiot, Barbara O'Brien scolded me for calling out this white woman's antics...I was insulted, as so other black bloggers (I think there's a verb missing here.-ed.), for ("at", not "for"-ed.) the arrogance of the act. Given how priviledged (sic) she was by having the time, money and access to blog the Lamont campaign, why couldn't Jane Hamsher find as many black and latino bloggers in Connecticut and give them a voice and visibility through her blog?
...If you answer that, you can answer why Jane Hamsher is included in this group as opposed to any black or latino bloggers.
See, Liza's pissed because nobody invited her to lunch with Big Dog. But, instead of coming right out and saying that, she's seizing on this opportunity to try and generate herself some publicity by insinuating that there's some kind of racist agenda at work. Now, I will admit that when I saw the pictures from the meeting, I was surprised at the lily-whiteness of the crowd, but upon further inquiry, I was informed that several minority bloggers were invited, but declined. Of course, silly me, I took the trouble to ask what the deal was before jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst. Sure, lack of minority bloggers is a problem, but that's not really Liza's real agenda here. She's using this as an opportunity to call attention to herself and climb up on the cross. (That last nail's a bitch, innit?)
But, Liza, honey, if you want some attention, I'll be more than happy to give you some.
First of all:
Given how priviledged (sic) she was by having the time ("in having the time", "to have the time"? whatever.-ed.), money and access to blog the Lamont campaign, why couldn't Jane Hamsher find as many (as many as what?-ed) black and latino bloggers in Connecticut and give them a voice and visibility through her blog?
Last time I checked, the dashing CT Blogger is, in fact, a black man. And we've linked to him numerous times here, in fact, probably as much or more than any other Connecticut Blogger. He shot the famous interview video Jane did with Ned Lamont that the rightards seized upon so eagerly as evidence of Ned Lamont's ties to liberal bloggers.
Not to mention the fact that Steve Gilliard (black), Pam Spaulding (also black), and Matt O (Latino) are contributors here, and our own beloved Pachacutec is a Latino man as well. Oh, and of course, I'm gay, but I guess in Liza's world, the queers don't count as a minority, cos I could swear I saw a couple of them at lunch with President Clinton. Or maybe the fact of my homosexuality is outweighed by my white-man-ism. (Or would that be my white-man-hood?) But hey, Pach is gay and Latino, so he gets double points on the aggrieved minority scale. He's got my back.
All of that is beside the point, though. We don't work with any of those people because of their ethnicity. We love them because they are all outstanding bloggers, awesome writers, and good friends.
Asking around, however, I have found out that Liza gets a lot of mileage out of playing the role of Alma Martyr. It seems she is forever bitching that Atrios, Kos, et al never link to her and she hangs the blame for this on the fact that she's a woman. Whereas, everyone I spoke with assured me that if she would actually WRITE SOMETHING PEOPLE WANTED TO READ, they'd be more than happy to send her some traffic. It's so much easier, though, to invent conspiracies and wail about The Man rather than accepting that she's just not a very good writer and kind of a muddled thinker.
So, Liza, dear, before you go assailing people who are more talented than yourself and making Jane stand in for every blond white woman who ever pissed you off, maybe you should head back to eighth grade English and, you know, learn to spell and to write in a linear fashion. Although judging from your other posts that I read, mediocrity may be a chronic condition for you. Still, I bet you could get a long way on locker-slamming and hair-flipping among the other 13 year olds. Hell, it got you your own post here tonight, courtesy of Yours Truly, and I guess that's something. You just might have a future in this blogging thing, although I think you might be more at home on LiveJournal or MySpace where you can post lots of photos of yourself to distract from your decidedly tepid prose and numerous grammatical faux pas.
Sorry if I come off a little harsh, but it's probably kinder for me to tell you all of this now rather than letting you twist around for years in your persecuted little world before you collapse under the weight of your own pretensions and fade back into well-deserved obscurity. Buuuuh-bye.
UPDATE: Okay, let's get something straight here. By using the word "betters", I meant people who are more talented than Liza, and they are legion. If you've decided that there's racial baggage in that statement, it says a lot more about your issues than mine. Another thing that frosts me about this is when people say I'm being racist by going after Liza's execrable spelling and grammar. Now, am I correct that this means you think that black people should be held to a lower standard of linguistic proficiency? That's pretty damn racist if you ask me. I don't think it's too much to ask that someone who wants to be considered A Writer should learn to properly use the language. Liza has a masters degree. I think that she should be able to properly spell the word "privilege", or at the very least, to use spell-check before she puts her posts up.
The really sad thing about this is that there was an opportunity here to address some really important points, but that opportunity has flown as an army of shameless attention-whores have jumped on the bandwagon and attempted to get their licks in. For the record, I apologize to Liza for taking such a direct route of attack, but I do believe it is worth noting that I attacked her writing and her perpetually aggrieved tone, not her gender, and certainly not her race.
I have now said absolutely everything I intend to say about the topic. Thank you for your time.
UPDATE 2: Due to widespread misinterpretation, the word "betters" has been struck from this post and replaced with something that more accurately conveys my authorial intent. Please. Stop. Whining.
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ha! FITZ!
yes, indeed. Hi, T-Rex…and now to read the post :)
Theropod Snarkmeister in da house!
Good night and good luck
Gilliard brought this up earlier today, and gave the distinct impression he hadn’t been invited (though he would have declined if asked). So you might want to check that…
Nice Addams Family pic, Trex.
snarkalicious
TTTTTTTTTTTRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!
By the way, in a further ironic twist, that photo, which I’ve seen before (and which shows, among other things, a black man who desperately wants to be a white woman) is of four celebrity impersonators, all male!
Maybe Ann Althouse will link to Liza, and the two can bitch and moan to each other forever and ever, amen.
sigh…this crap…and the mess going on over at feministing..is just so petty. *g* why can’t we all just get along?
LindyH @ 11
NOBODY calls my homegirl Jane an idiot. And certainly not someone who can’t spell. For fuck’s sake!
TRex –
Did you spell her name right? Is there a working linky to her blogtopia (coined by skippy, hero of bush kangaroos) outpost?
If so, she is flattered beyond the beyond — ’nuff said . . .
dave @
6
I think in the comments in his section that Steve said……oh fuck it let me find his comment and quote it here:
Forgot to add…about the lily-whiteness of the group. If they would have picked me to show up and if I was in the pic, people would still think that the group still would have been lily-white. Even though I have a good part of American Indian in me, and a smattering of black from a while back.
I guess….someone somewhere would find something wrong with the group that attended, no matter what the makeup of the group was. There would have been someone who would have protested that the group did not reflect what their stereotypical view of a liberal/progressive group should have looked like….and others would just protest that such a gathering took place at all.
My goodness. I read your threat on Liza’s blog and hoped that you wouldn’t do something like this. However, I’m not surprised that you did because it’s easier to attack Liza than to address the very real tensions within the left blogosphere/democratic party/whatever regarding people of color.
Clearly, this Liza’s a racist for omitting non-white blogger Oliver Willis from her list of omitted non-white bloggers. Or, as she calls them in one of her comments, “colored bloggers.” Really. Look it up on her stupid website.
Gotta say, TRex, I was hoping tonight’s latenite was gonna be about the blogger boobies…. oh, well, this’ll certainly stir up trouble!
========
Had Enough?
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zAmboni @
13
edited
Sonya @ 14
That wasn’t a threat. It was a promise.
I’ve had emails from Liza before, her whole thing is bitterness against anyone with traffic. It’s quite sad that she thinks someone owes it to her to deliver her from obscurity because that’s not the way it happens. I remember taking a look at her writing at the time and thinking “oh lord, someone is in denial.”
I know it’s really hard to face up to the fact that you just have no talent for the thing you want to do, I’ve seen it in Hollywood a lot and it’s always somebody else’s fault — the agents, the studio hacks, the people who Just Do Not Understand the Misunderstood Genius in the Corner. But in crying racism first and getting all the facts wrong in the process she displays the very limitations that keep her traffic at a slow drizzle.
She’s Dan Gerstein with tits.
Sonya, you don’t just lob grenades at people and expect nothing in return. Liza knew full well what she was doing when she wrote that post. She wanted attention. Well, here’s some goddamn motherfucking attention.
TRex @ 10
Agreed. I just am sighing over the fact that the idiots crawl out from under rocks everytime something good happens. Ann Althouse all but called Jessica Feministing a whore. For meeting Bill Clinton.
Sonya @ 14
Liza does not address the very real tensions within the left blogosphere regarding people of color, she makes a bunch of false accusations and tries to play the martyr. Her exploitation of a very real problem for personal gain is quite shameless.
Are we going to have the attack of the addled thinkers?
Sonya @ 14
Well, gee, what was it Liza did about this? Reads to me like she attacked. Is this going to be one of those “do as I do, don’t do as I say” tensions?
LindyH @ 20
No shit. Why is it the women are taking crap for this — from other women?
One need look no further than the cracks about blond hair and tits from self-described “feminists” to see the reason for the sad state of feminism in this country today.
In the future Liza will bring flowers to the altar of TREX and beg forgivness.
Where was all the talk of “healing, not hurting” when Jane got called an idiot by this Liza person? Seems to me her commenters are all about the healing when they are the (faux) aggrieved party, not so much when the hurter’s one of their own. Just sayin’
I also want to say, as a white person, that I found Steve, Pam (and through her, Terrance) and CT-Blogger, through firedoglake. No other blog’s better at linking to other great bloggers, some of them apparently persons of color.
========
Had Enough?
========
Well, she screwed herself. I won’t be going there again. I did, to read about the kerfluffle…one hit wonder (wonder why I went there in the first place). And Althouse should learn to age with dignity.
Jane Hamsher @ 20
Hmmm . . . does that comparison insult Dan Gerstein (tough to do) or the XX blogger in question?
brainfaht @
24
Don’t hold your breath.
BUT, it sure is good to see you, brainfaht!!
Jane Hamsher @
21
Jane Hamsher @
21
If you feel that she doesn’t address the real issue, then do you plan to do so or will you just drop it after a sufficient amount of insults are hurled at Liza?
i bet [dangerstein]’s got tits of his own
Sonya, you an agent provocateur? And what’s Jane supposed to do? Just let it go? That didn’t work for John Kerry and the swiftboaters, you know.
I haven’t been commenting here for very long but what I have found intersting is that it sometimes hard to tell the race, gender, age, or size of the dinosaur. It is always enlightening to read the comments here.
If you feel that she doesn’t address the real issue, then do you plan to do so or will you just drop it after a sufficient amount of insults are hurled at Liza?
Right.
We here at FDL are going to rush out and erase all the racial prejudice in the blogosphere and everyone’s going to live happily ever after.
And I hasten to remind you who started hurling insults first. Liza seems more than willing to dish it out. If she can’t take the consequences of launching character-assassinating smears, then maybe she should think twice before she posts. Or not post at all.
Furthermore, Steve Guilliard talked about this “black blogger” thing. He said if blacks want to blog, they’ll blog and they don’t need white people’s help with that.
i vote “not post at all”
please, liza.
ya know what, I didn’t know that CT, Pam, and Steve were black, and I really don’t care. I read them because they’re thoughtful, articulate, and genuinely moving with the writing they do. There is no race in that!!
TeddySanFran @ 30
Are you volunteering to find out? ‘Cos I ain’t touching Dan Gerstein’s chest.
LindyH @ 34
Amen.
The timing on all this is so funky.
I suppose for some, negative attention is better than no attention at all.
And note that when TRex called her on her post, and pointed out the fact that minority bloggers WERE invited, suddenly her point became All About Teh Blackface, the same kind of “Look - over there!” misdirection Ann Outhouse tried when someone called her on her puerile boobies post.
Liza should know that you only get one opportunity to make a good first impression. I’d never heard about what she claims is
but now I do, and I won’t be going back there again.
I too was shocked at the blog-lunch-with-BigDog picture when I first saw it; as a card-carrying West Coast progressive, my first thought was, “Why did they put all the non-white bloggers behind the photographer?” Somebody screwed up here — probably it was Peter Daou — and it better get fixed. But attacking Jane Hamsher (again!) is simply a traffic-generator on Liza’s part — she knows how fiercely loyal Jane’s fans are.
Sadly, Liza’s writing will ensure few returns.
LindyH @
31
Oh please. Just because I don’t see shit funny about this situation doesn’t mean I’m an agent provacateur. Why can’t Jane just let it go? She has already said that Liza is nothing but a squirrel in her world who can’t write. How can Liza hurt an A-lister like Jane?
I see this as avoidance of discussion of a real problem and a lost opportunity to explore ways in which to further understanding and more openness between supposed allies in this battle against the dark forces that threaten to consume us all.
yeah, TRex, how come you never blog about the dark forces that threaten to consume us all? huh? huh?
TRex @
33
I’m not surprised you said that.
So let’s see — Liza does’t address the “real issue” but just hurls a bunch of ad-hominem attacks at me and my hair (which have no relevance whatsoever to a guest list I did not make up), accuses me of never linking to African-American bloggers in Connecticut (totally and wholly untrue). Now *I* am under some obligation to rise to the occasion and tackle the problem?
I’m quite comfortable that I pay a great deal of attention to having different voices at FDL, and I hope to have more in the future. That’s all I’m responsible for in the situation at the moment. And I’m not obligated to suddenly take up the banner of the underlying problem just because some bitter no-traffic complainer who doesn’t like the color of my hair suddenly snaps her fingers.
Sonya @ 41
I see you as a rather transparent and hypocritical concern troll. To each their own.
TeddySanFran @ 42
Funny, I thought that was exactly what I was doing six days a week here.
Sonya –
There are a multitude of issues worthy of discussion, but attacking Jane is not the way to start an enlightened conversation.
On the other hand, some FDL commenters were initially identified as concern trolls, but stuck around and proved their opinions were different, but not disruptive.
Jane Hamsher @ 44
Jane, I’ll be happy to lend you my muddled and addled voice just tell me where to ship it to and I’ll box it up. :)
By the way, my spouse says to please keep it so he can have a rest…..Scoundrel.
Jane Hamsher @
44
You are absolutely correct. You’re under no obligation to do a damn thing. It just seems to me that after all the great work you did on the Valerie Plame case, the Ned Lamont campaign and other issues that “this” is beneath you.
Peace.
Sonya @ 41
Oh please. You show up at my site spreading dissent and tell me to drop it? You didn’t come here for a serious discussion, don’t pretend you came here on the high road now.
Well, if I’m the devil’s advocate, so be it. TRex, it looks like you’re being a bully. You’re snarking this Liza, who I’d never even heard of previously, smashing a gnat with a sledge hammer, as it were, thsu giving her big publicity into the bargain. She gets what she wants, plus you, and the Lake, come out looking not so good shall we say. Sorry, but I don’t get it……….
EvilDrPuma @
45
Just because I don’t contribute to the echo chamber doesn’t make me a troll.
Jane Hamsher @ 50
Spreading dissent? I thought I was being respectful in expressing my opinion.
gettin’ kinda hot in here . . .
It seems to me that there are bigger fish to fry in these months coming up to midterm elections. We need to focus on getting the house and senate out of the hands of rubberstamp republicans. Can we try to come together to achieve this goal, which, if achieved, will help all other causes under our big tent?
It never ceases to amaze that the same old cycle perpetrates in some quarters, with no regard to who or what… Person or group X says person or group Y is all wrong, out of line, ‘burning the last bridge between X and Y in this country’…
…unless they do it Person or group X’s way.
Therefore doing their part to continue divisiveness and suspicion, whether they are aware of it or not.
This might surprise some people, but Mau-Mauing The Flak Catchers is still in print. And liberal bloggers didn’t leave people in the arms of Katrina.
I am certainly interested in Liza’s views, as I do the views of others…But if mine are to be discounted out of hand because I am supposedly racist, then it makes communication and understanding difficult.
I am not a racist.
From an artistic viewpoint, which is my sole contribution to this episode, I demand to be judged on my broader work.
It was fortuitous that Gilliard linked to Liza…Forced exposure creates honesty.
So let us all take advantage of it before the exploiters come along.
…
And by the way, Jessica,
I’m sorry that I gave you huge tits.
;>)
Oh, that just demands a reference to this classic.
(BTW, the only blog I’ve ever had that is actually mine is on LJ.)
I go to blogs that communicate. Period. I don’t ask much more of a blogger than if they have a point, make it so that I can understand it. You see, blogging, for me, is not about race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or any of the things that, admittedly, divide this country. For me, it’s about communication. If a blogger can’t communicate, why would I want to waste my time? God knows, we have enough to do.
Sonya @ 53
Just because you disrupt a message board, however, does.
TRex @ 46
i’m just disappointed you’re not blogging about the Boobie Crisis of Harlem.
Sonya @ 54
What barn were you raised in, that you can call this conduct “respectful?”
Sonya @ 49
I didn’t start this. I would welcome a serious discussion of this matter. This is not it.
That should have been “all causes under our big tent”. Sorry for the non preview. my bad. :(
EvilDrPuma @
63
How did I disrespect anyone?
TeddySanFran @
61
Oh, that’s TOMORROW night, Teddy!
Where is WooT when we need him?
I haven’t seen a pair of Blue Footed Boobies since I don’t know when . . .
Jane Hamsher @ 62
WHAT matter??? All you’ve done is tell Jane it’s her responsibility to build a bridge to someone who called her a racist. I don’t get it.
Jane, let me borrow that tinfoil hat. I’m having a vision of Karl’s finger.
Sonya,
Have you visited here before this evening?
LindyH @ 69
Ew. *squick*
It doesn’t smell like Jeff Gannon, does it?
TRex @ 70
Gaaaaaaaaah! I did not need that image.
LindyH @ 72
You started it!
OT, but Billmon has a brilliant post on BushCo’s slippery slope to the destruction of our National Reputation:
A Tortured Definition
TRex @ 72
:
Thanks for the link, ck
I don’t think Sonya is being an asshole here.
ember @
70
Yes, I have. I read this blog every day, but this is the first time I’ve posted.
OK, here’s the thing about this “whiteness” of bloggers at the Big Dog meet n’ greet…
How many people know the color, ethnicity, religion - sometimes even sex - of bloggers?
I had a pretty good idea which were boys and which were girls, but aside from that, I didn’t know and I didn’t care.
And I like it that way.
Lay off, trolls. There is “no here, here.”
fwiw, one of the reasons I hang out here is because of the inclusive nature of FDL and the zero tolerance for racism, remarks derisive of belief systems/religion or ad hominem attacks– if anyone spent any amount of time reading the posts and the comments here on any given day that would be readily apparent. If one wants to take a snapshot or situation out of context and use it as a bludgeon, well then… Lots of us are relatively still anonymous here– gender, race, religion and practices are unknown for many and and I like it that way… it’s the variety of subjects and the exchange of ideas that makes this blog what it is.
We have a woman in my anti-war group who blogs, but she’s a very muddled thinker who rambles on about the evidence she couldn’t obtain, refers her readers to articles without explaining the significance of said article or how it relates to anything, etc. One time, she claimed the “Peak Oil” theory was nonsense. I asked her to explain. She said the answer was somewhere on her blog.
I checked out the page that was showing, nothing on Peak Oil. Seeing as I had something of a life to live, I moved on to other things.
Lately, she’s claimed that 9-11 was not an inside job and that she’s proven that to be the case…somewhere on her blog!
I give up. I’m just calling it an “alleged argument.”
Billy K @ 79
Jane - female from west coast somewhere?
Christy - female from WVa?
TRex - hermaphrodite from the late Cretaceous period
I always thought one really cool thing about blogs are that the people are annonymous. What can you tell from a person’s screen name. Are they a woman a man, white, black, gay straight? It doesn’t matter…. It is not the color of the type but the content of the posting….what am I missing here?
I’ve always found FDL to be a welcoming place with a diverse choir of voices. On any given day, posts and comments appear from a broad spectrum of intelligent, insightful people, and one hecka of a dinosaur.
Enlightened and progressive people start dialogues with meaningful words and gestures, not personal attacks. For Liza to attack Jane about this is wrong and demonstrates why her blog is road kill.
ummmm… blogalicious?
Laaaaah, di-dah, da-da-dee-dah
Lah-di-dah, da-da-dee-dah (4X)
punaise!
angie!
Sonya @ 78
Welcome, and I mean that with all sincerity. I’ve gotta tell you that the way you went about it got you off on the wrong foot. If you go back and read the comments I think that you will understand what I am referring to. It might help to do so tomorrow.
One of my favorite things about Jane is that she is going to defend herself from attack. Subtle or blunt, she will pick up on it and handle it swiftly.
I hope that you continue to visit and that you speak up frequently.
hi, punaise!
Sonya @ 66
Hmmm, I’d call this pretty disrespectful:
And whether you intended it or not, repeatedly harping on the point that the proprietors of a blog have some kind of obligation to address your pet issue is a well-recognized form of trolldom. The fact that TRex and Jane chose not to respond to a blogger who called Jane an “idiot” by immediately exploring the issue on which she claims victimhood does not make it any less so.
woo hoo! it’s hump day. half way through my one-month self-imposed FDL hiatus (occasional drop-in “howdy y’all”s excepted). I’d better get back under my rock soon, before 3sivund notices.
PUNAISE!!!!
Yay.
I’m still a little bemused at “concern troll”; I think I must have been off the net when that became common currency.
Despite the fact that the divisions (or rather the attempts to divide) here are real, it’s vaguely enticing to start casting this as a sitcom, since that’s how TV copes with our arbitrary labels on identity lately.
Take a bag of (rich/poor) (white/black/Latino/Asian) (heterosexual/homosexual) (strong/weak) (sane/psychotic) (conservative/progressive) (men/women) and make them interact. Comedy ensues. Usually, you’ll want to fix one or more of these variables just to get some kind of coherent audience, but Lucky Louie isn’t doing so bad….
I dunno. Is it good or bad that the way TRex has framed this whole incident reminds me of somebody getting good-natured laughs right before the credits roll?
Yo naise! Hows the hiatus? Driving you berzerkely?
“…The P-mannnn…”
;>)
TRex @ 92
i gotta say, punaise, that others have tried mightily on occasion to carry your banner, but to little avail. we miss you!
punaise @ 91
punaise, man-o-man, do we ever miss you…
punaise @ 84
punaise!
OfT: looks like it might be the end of the road for Ricky’s little Green friend –
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/15/23938/3368
TSF! TRex! Eureka Springs! darkblack! everybody!
Driving you berzerkely?
nahh, been too busy with work to notice too much.* staying informed via TPM and DKos, but not lurking anywhere. it’s been surprisingly manageable, but it will be good to dive back in come October.
*this is an outright lie, of course
We really do miss you, Punaise.
Well, I don’t know what the big fuss is all about. After all, Kos gave Jane permission to speak to the world on my behalf. Sheesh!
Like Jane said above, there are very real issues involving racial and cultural issues in the left blogosphere. There are sites which deal with those issues better than this one, but every successful site plays toward its strengths.
likewise, TRex.
sorry to hijack the conversation ever so briefly. I’ll check in next weekend.
*plouf*
TeddySanFran @61
Teddy!
:D
BTW, darkblack, I fully intend to use that amazing image you created for me today. I just wanted to hit this topic while I was still pissed about it.
Redshift @
90
I hear what you’re saying, but I disagree with your characterization of disrespect. Ad hominem attacks always represent the path of least resistance in any discussion, whether you are the attacker or the one responding to the attack. My comment was based on human behavior in general, not T-Rex or Jane specifically as I don’t know either of them personally.
For the record, it’s not my pet issue.
Peace.
I’ve just found this so amazing! I haven’t been so pissed in a long time as when I read Ugly old Ann’s post about Jessica’s boobs and now this. My God but envy is a nasty thing!
Good Post TRex! The fact is that Liza can’t write and it’s no wonder she doesn’t have any traffic. And as for ugly Ann I think she’s getting talking points from the Eagle Forum.
Nasty, nasty, nasty.
darkblack @
57
No you are not, and anyone who thinks that you are does not understand what racism is.
BTW the thick-witted catterwaulers never bothered to ask whether you are black, white, male, female, gay, straight or otherwise. I don’t know and I know they don’t, either.
I, however, am a blond.
darkblack - flickr link has me in stitches and I am still on the first page! a cabinet post lmao
The paradox of the original post is that it appears brutish while in reality it also shows caring. There is truth to the notion that negative attention shows a higher regard than no attention at all. This post is entirely consistent with everything that I have come to appreciate about FDL.
TRex’s post clearly confronts incorrect distortions and leaves the door open for open discourse. No need to treat anyone with kid gloves. If “Liza” responds by choosing to focus only on the experience of being bullied, the avoidance would only lend more support to the fundamental correctness of the post’s substance.
Darkblack - thank you for sharing your artistic treasure trove !!!
TRex @ 106
Her rules and my rules are different, but I’m cool with it. I can’t speak for her.
Ed*ard Teller - Been checking late late night threads for an Alaska news update. Hope I didn’t miss it.
Yes we do. I was thinking of you tonight — we might want to have a Bay Area FDL house party for Robert Greenwald’s new film. I think we’re gonna have a special edition of the Book Salon this week only it will be the Film Salon with Robert. Anyway if we have a Bay Area one you must come, Punaise.
Seriosly? This issue, that grew out of an unintended or inferred slight doesn’t deserve so much ink or comment. I hope you can work things out. The best way is to talk - directly.
Good Post TRex! The fact is that Liza can’t write and it’s no wonder she doesn’t have any traffic.
Thanks, Kewalo. I just couldn’t believe what I was reading when I saw what she said. To insinuate that Jane was somehow responsible for the ethnic make-up of the Clinton lunch party, or that by Liza’s standards of pro-ethnic righteousness she wasn’t worthy of being there…well, it was pretty clear to me what Liza’s real problem is.
And then the fact that it was so appallingly written and spelled…I mean, why not just tie a big red bow around your ass and attach a card that says, “Dear TRex, please kick me.”?
OfT: The Dean gives Chris Shays a handjob, big-time:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01064.html
Whoofah.
While the Bush folks call the Democrats ‘Defeato-crats’ some other folks in other parts of the world see Bush in a different light.
-GSD
With a sigh, I’m going to question whether TRex needed to stir the pot. But perhaps I’m just a bit worn down by Yet Another Late Nite Bitch-Out.
The Dean was wearing velvet gloves and was also playing with Shays’ nuts too.
Beltway schmucks.
-GSD
pseudonymous in nc @ 118
Don’t like it? Don’t read it.
I just happened to wake up with a taste for blood today. Happens sometimes when you’re a 60ft. prehistoric predator.
pseudonymous in nc @ 118
I’m very happy with what Late Nite is and has become now that TRex has taken it over. I think he does a stellar job and the comment threads have probably doubled since he’s been here. I find this comment disrespectful of his efforts to no purpose.
As a fairly long time AARP member (for perspective) I am SOOOOOOOOOO tired of this skin color thing that I could just spit nails every time I have to deal with it
The only color of a person I am interested in is the color of their soul; is it black (Rove et al) or white (James E. R. Carter et al) ?
Screw the superficial color crap
And I don`t care much what others do with their sex organs either
Can we all just grow the f*ck up ?
I`m waiting…
“The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.” - James Carter
This week, pukelicans released the 2 years delayed intelligence report that showed they all lied. Old news, they said.
This week, more Halliburton abuse of our troops came out. Who cares, they said (we got magnets on our SUVs!)
This week, Bush came out and said torture is good, and all nations should embrace our definition of torture (it’s ok when we do it, but not anyone else).
So some liza has some problem with something? Let her go work for Lieberman.
I’m sure he’d be grateful.
GSD:
How do you come about finding these pics and vids…. toooooo funny…well not like funny ha ha, but scary funny. I am going to have to pass that along to my fellow tribe members.
FDL LateNite: It ain’t no lullaby!
TRex @ 120
Why, thank you. In fact, please make it a regular feature.
Oh, you already have.
I’m George W. Bush and I approve this message.
-GSD
TeddySanFran @
125
Teddy! If we have a Bay Area screening you must come too. Kobe says so.
He is quite cured from his trots.
sneaking back for one last comment: a chuckle-worthy d r i f t g l a s s post (riffing on Napoleon Dynamite)
(PS Jane - Bay Area confab sounds great!)
Please consider contacting your Congresscritter this weekend and ask why Congressman Bob Ney, convicted felon, is not former Congressman Bob Ney. According to his attorney, he’s “taking things one step at a time.” Although he’s missed many votes since his last one on Tuesday, he’s still on the payroll. Do ask your Congresscritter why.
Can’t take away his pension, apparently, but we should be able to get him off the payroll, dontcha think?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00114.html
========
Had Enough?
========
Jane Hamsher @
128
so glad to hear it, poor shy and then embarassed little boy!
pseudonymous in nc @ 118
I actually kind of know what you mean. But I’ll tell you, I’m also sick of turning the other cheek. If someone is telling appalling lies then damnit, they deserve to be called on it. I have gotten so sick of lies! I’m delighted that TRex called her on them.
Everytime someone demeans us with a lie we need to stand up and kick ‘em right in the ass. Because if we don’t they just think they can get away with it and get worse. So, although I can understand how you feel (really) just look at it as a learning experience for Liza.
ummmm, Sonya…
by beginning your statement with “I’m not surprised that” TRex engaged in ad-hominem attacks* because it is easy - yeah, you engaged in an ad-hominem attack.
And that, m’dear, was your disrespectful and passive-aggressive entree to commenting this blog. (not to mention kicking off with “My goodness” - which tends to evoke Rummy flashbacks for me.)
That said, even though Steve G. said Liza has some good thoughts going on, I can’t discern them from her writing.
(*added on edit - I’m not saying I think the post itself was an ad-hominem argument — I’d have to read it very closely to rule that out and time for edit would be over, but my recollection is that TRex went after basic ability to convey a rational idea, along with spelling and grammar)
popping in …
Trex and Jane - cheering from here …
and if you can’t take the heat, etc …
Kewalo @ 133
For better or worse, it’s a pretty loud learning experience to get frontpaged on FDL.
Just sayin’.
Loud or not, I bet she’s creamed herself over all the attention.
Apropos of nothing but vaguely on topic: I read the blogs I read because each has a different take on events, different viewpoints, and each provides me with food for thought(for the most part).
I live quite contentedly in a state of Liza-ignorance. I have no idea who this Liza person is nor do I care if she writes Pulitzer quality material or tabloid drivel.
I understand the desire to defend oneself from an attack, no matter how minor, but this one…well, it seems to me that the blogging equivalent of an elephant gun was hauled out to take out an annoying gnat.
But that’s just my opinion and YMMV.
Kids, I gotta step out for a bit. Will be back.
i’m not exactly sure why this post is necessary. as it happens, Liza can actually be reached and spoken to personally. imagine. some people, when attacked in a manner they think unfair, by someone who is actually seeking the same goals (2 minutes at her website proves that), would keep it private. in the spirit of seeking a better community, they’d find out what brought on the original attack and try to find a positive resolution. you don’t indicate you tried that; you don’t approve of talking to people first? of privately making your points and giving her a chance to retract? you may be in the right in terms of the access you give to a diverse group of writers, but this post is pure 8th grade. very disappointing.
but i’m sure the neocon lurkers enjoyed it.
Love it when the host runs out for a quickie :~}
Does a Tyrannasaurus Rex bitch-slap with its tail?
I used the link to Lisa’s blog and was puzzled, not by her poor grasp of English grammar, which I attribute to a college education, which I have noticed can have the perverse effect of knocking out of some folks heads the rudimentary rules of written English that primary and secondary school teachers have spent 12 years beating into them, but by this statement about the picture of the group of bloggers in question:
”As you can see, not one of them is black or latino.”
This is not all that ‘at a glance’ obvious to me as it apparently is to Lisa. How can you tell that just from a photo? Is this a common skill? The reason I’m curious is that I at one time had a supervisor who claimed the ability to unerringly know what anyone’s sexual orientation was. This led to conversations like:
Sup: That manager doesn’t like me.
Me: What makes you think so?
Sup: Because she’s a lesbian, lesbians don’t like me.
Me: How could you tell that?
Sup: From her hair.
Me: What? She’s got shoulder length hair. It’s not like she’s sporting a military brush cut Sup: Oh, she will be, trust me, she will be.
Or:
Sup: Don’t forget to set up a meeting with the gay guy.
Me: You mean the facilities manager?
Sup: Yeah.
Me: All right, how do you know this. guy is gay?
Sup: Didn’t you hear the way he talked?
Me: Yeah, he has some kind of foreign accent. I can’t place it
Sup: That’s a gay accent.
Me: There’s no such thing.
Sup: Sure there is you just heard it.
Me: How come you never mentioned this accent with any of the other gays you’ve pointed out?
Sup: The other one’s accents weren’t as pronounced.
This supervisor could never explain just how this ability worked and, in fact, claimed to have lost it entirely due to some sort of sensory overload caused by watching news coverage of a gay pride parade.
Amazing as this Supervisor’s ability was, assuming it was real, it pales in comparison to the ability to Lisa’s ability to determine who is and who is not a self-identified African-American or Latino-American from a photograph. Is this actually possible or is Lisa just full of crap?
TeddySanFran @
130
From a strict technical standpoint, while he has agreed to plead guilty, he has not actually done so. In other words, he’s admitted to felonies, but strictly speaking, he’s not yet a true felon. For all practical purposes, he’s not much different from any other Republican.
Uhhh. Liza could use a little help with her personal blog (not her culturekitchen one), I imagine.
Went looking to see who was the source of all this fuss, saw that the “contact” pages on her personal blog were all “403 Access denied” pages.
I should have taken the hint, but I am intrepid. So I went looking further and found this post from last May:
There were 2 comments in response. The 3d person who reads the blog might have been me, I guess.
Or perhaps people commented only in personal e-mail, send to “blogdiva@etc.” (See page link above.)
I got to wondering just what a blog diva is, so it seemed like checking out her Resume might give me some answers.
Liza has conveniently posted her Resume on her personal site and it includes this item:
Hmmm. Nothin’ there. Not that there’s anything wrong with having nothing to list under “Professional Experience,” mind you. One can gain that by making contacts, through conferences or perhaps through one’s publications, which it looks like Liza will be getting around to doing some time soon. At present that part of her resume reads:
Again, there’s nothin’ wrong with having not spoken at any conferences or published anything, mind you. It may in fact be challenging to publish, speak, or gain professional experience when the first concentration listed on the Education section of your Resume, in obtaining your “Master’s [sic] in Philosophy (ABD)” was, after all:
Being busy keeping the “culturekitchen” blog going might mean that the Resume on Liza’s personal blog is not her latest one, so I thought I might request the PDF file of her resume, which she says she can send along if you click on the words private message link but apparently you can only use that link if you are a registered user.
Or I might send her a friendly suggestion that if you don’t have anything for certain categories in your Resume, it might be a good idea to omit those categories entirely — instead of leaving empty holes under the headings you have included on the page.
But it’s so much easier to post here at FDL without registering that I thought maybe I’ll just leave this here for when Liza stops by.
Maybe sonja could let blog divaknow this helpful message is waiting for her.
America, fuck yeah!
North Korea accuses South Korea of girding for war.
Hurtling towards global conflagration…..but at least America is in the ‘3rd awakening’ stage according to Bush.
-GSD
[deep breath]
TRex writes many wonderful Late Nite pieces. Just count me in the don’t-go-to-bed-fighting crowd.
triangular gutters @ 135
This made me laugh out loud. I’m sure glad TRex didn’t feature me!
t.a. barnhart @
139
You apply a yardstick to one you don’t apply to the other. Liza didn’t even bother to verify the factual accuracy of her assertions, let alone privately communicate her concerns.
Our neocon lurkers no doubt recognize themselves in your logic.
Wow. I just ran into an ethics issue with this situation. Surprising in the blog world how this stuff pops up when you least expect it.
For the record, Liza has been a co-contributor at RadioFreeBlogistan.com (RFB) — so have I. The site used to draw a fairly nice volume of traffic as long as Salon Magazine maintained its blogging community; a sizeable chunk of the traffic I received at my Salon-based site came through RFB. If I had been a more consistent blogger over the last 18 months, I’d probably still have a fair chunk of traffic from RFB; it’s my fault if I don’t blog there that I don’t draw traffic.
If this is about traffic and visibility, RFB’s the same place that Liza has an opportunity to post and drive up her traffic, as well BlogHer and a bunch of other sites that have an emphasis on women and minorities, and those that are purely issue-based and not writer-oriented.
If this is about diversity and the Big Dog, the target should be Big Dog and Peter Daou since it was their “party”. Jane had no control over the guest list, nor the availability of the bloggers invited.
If this is about Connecticut, look at the stats:
Connecticut’s 2005 total population (Wikipedia)
White 86.09% (includes 8.31% Hispanic)
Black 10.88%
American Indian 0.76%
Asian 3.56%
NHPI 0.15%
If there are only 28 CT blogs listed at MyLeftNutmeg, how many are written by African-American bloggers? The number will naturally be low, reflecting the statistics.
And if it’s about CT, isn’t that where the focus should be, rather than on a blog launched by a west coast woman who adopted the CT cause?
For the record, I’m a woman of mixed race (White-Asian-NHPI). I came here to FDL because of the quality of content, not because this blog had any particular slant towards any group — although I’ve stayed because of the diversity of material.
And I’m just not getting the race thing, even though I can see on both sides of the fence. I’m confused about the nature of the underlying problem, and how it’s Jane’s to fix.
And because of the weirdness of the ethics involved, I’d better leave it at that on the subject of the post.
To those of you who are members of a minority group: Blogging is the realization of free speech; we are all able to own a printing press, in effect. It is the greatest equalizer I’ve ever experienced, but it requires self-empowerment and commitment. It’s free if you use any of the services like Blogger or Xanga; if you don’t have a computer, it takes the effort to get to the library to use a computer, requiring both self-motivation and commitment. There are no other barriers that do not face bloggers of the majority group. There are a number of bloggers out there who have been kind and generous enough to write about driving up traffic, so that you can learn from them and can be heard by a wider audience. But blogging is a meritocracy; you have to have something unique and something of quality if you expect traffic to come to you, if you expect to be heard. Some blogs are aggregations of artwork or photography; if you aren’t a strong writer, but better at graphics, blogging will not stop you from being heard. Community, too, is content; you can always cultivate a strong community if you’re not the best writer or artist.
The blogosphere’s your oyster. Knock yourself out.
TeddySanFran @ 136
Which is why I tend to think this one probably should have been left to obscurity, if it were just out there on her blog. But since more than one blogger has commented on the composition of the crowd, and Gilliard referenced her, there’s really no choice other than a spirited defense.
What is the most troubling about it is Althouse and Liza going after two women just because they were there, basically. If Liza wants to throw sh*t about the guest list, talk to Daou (or, as apparently is her mo, rant about him). I don’t know who to tell Althouse to talk to other than a therapist.
Frank Probst >”…For all practical purposes, he’s not much different from any other Republican.”
Bit closer to the slammer is all the difference I can think of
“Eventually, the truth will emerge. And when it does, this house of cards, built of deceit, will fall.” - Robert C. Byrd
Trying to figure out who to SPOTLIGHT tonight’s post to. Any suggestions, TRex?
I was really suprised at how pissed I got at the two blogger slams today. Mostly at Althouse for picking on Jessica. At my age I consider Jessica just a kid and I think it is very brave of her to carry a feminist torch. And then to have that old Phyllis Schafly wannabe go after her for her boobs, of all things, really bugged me. I guess it is the injustice of it that just frosts me.
I know that Jane is a strong woman and has plenty of defenders, and the person going dissing her is just a sad case. I can’t imagine anyone taking her too very seriously. So, I’m just not as mad about this.
I just went to Jessicas site for the first time today and I’m going to make a point of checking in every day I can. Damn that Althouse is a bitch.
I think I have finally found the smoking gun on Michelle Malkin.
-GSD
*Mature subject matter.
GSD @ 146
This is a literally an annual ritual, and I can remember it in the news for at least the last ten years. The nK position is that the most rational time for us to stage a secret preemptive attack on them would be when we were pretending to just have an exercise.
Well, according to the link you posted, the exercise is over for the year.
Although younger Japanese are still confused as to why the ROKs might not like them, the tone of that line does remind me of a critical event in Evangelion: The Second Impact.
I suppose that doesn’t make sense to the non-otaku. Sorry. Know your audience….
Jane is not an idoit GW is. Also what I like about Jane is THAT she defends herself from attack. There are way to many democrats who just want to be above the fray. Showing some passion for what you believe in is EXACTLY what the DLC needs to learn.
Rayne @ 149
What is NHPI?
Late to the post. I never thought about a bloggers race. Steve Gillard is black? Didn’t know or care. I think his blog is great.And please lord, don”t ever let Jane or Christy get pissed at me.
TeddySanFran @ 152
Jesus H. Christ, don’t spotlight a cross-blog flame war. ;)
Welcome to the New Democratic Party…..same as the Old one (except that they now have Bloggers in their firing squad)
Good Luck
Kewalo @ 153
Both of them bothered me. I guess, because it’s late, I’m having thoughts like, “How much of that repug war chest is being spent to sow discord?”
North Hatlantic Pacific Islander.
OK. I don’t know what the H is for.
-GSD
dabloguiman @
160
Here, here.
Attack, attack, attack. Not each other.
-GSD
Kewalo @
132
a lot of energy can be wasted this way. and now Liza has a lot more visibility than is likely that she would’ve otherwise. i don’t know if it’s already been done or not but it seems to me that Althouse deserves more attention than Liza. FDL, like any person or entity that rises to the fore can expect a lot of heat. Liza claims to represent people of color. She probably does represent some but not others. How Liza is dealt with may well influence some of those others, and not necessarily in a good way…..
I’ll say it again. Being above the fray didn’t help Kerry. A lie is a lie, and the person lying should be called on it.
I thought I was white until my daddy became a Mason and got into the geneology thing. It turns out one of his grandmas was Comanche. Dad’s family tried to hide it, but dad dealt with it. He didn’t think it was nearly cool as we kids did, though.
LindyH @ 165
Liza doesn’t have big money buying TV ads and the MSM echo chamber helping to give the spat resonance. we’re raising her profile with this post.
hey, op, where ya been?
Hey Teddy, out dancing, but not with the stars.
Jane Hamsher @
128
Bay Area screening of Robert’s new film sounds sweet. If your near Sacramento between Sept. 23rd and January 7, 2007 the Crocker Museum is having a showing of Irving Normans painting, the great social surrealist. He would have been 100 at this time. The celebration is entitled ‘Dark Metropolis’. Michael Duncan writes in Art in America, July 2003: ‘The unrestrained passion and monumental energy of this work blows most contemporary political art out of the water.’
Kewalo @
153
Althouse is abjectly irrational and incapable of basic reading comprehension. That her stuff gets posted in the New York Times is emblematic of how the national discourse has been dragged into a ditch and left to die by traditional media.
Althouse will default to her standard line of bullshit — claiming that her serious points are not being addressed and her opponents have devolved into personal attacks. It will never graze her consciousness that calling out Jessica like that for her wardrobe choices is petty, bitchy and degrading.
Sorry, we do not “let these things slide.” We fight and kick and scream, even if the cost is giving unwarrented attention to the extreme narcissists amongst us.
Welcome to the New Democratic Party.
Jane - I’m glad we’re a place that fights back. These attacks by women on women are so far outta line, I wanna slap them both.
WTF, over…From Raw Story:
Love that 12:00/SUN/01-01-93 timecode. Very authentic.
;>)
g’nite all!
daCascadian @ 122,
I read your quote as “The blond of our common humanity….”
It works that way, too.
Night, T.
op99, GSD — NHPI = Native Hawaiian-Pacific Islander.
North Hatlantic. Bwahahaha!
LindyH @ 161
I’ve had that thought myself. I doubt it would cost much to pay about 1/2 doz people or so to spend time stirring things up on-line. I’ve reached a point where I would believe anything about the right.
GSD @
154
Okay, so… it’s NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests?
Jane Hamsher @ 171
Jane,
And was noted by someone at the Feministing site, the reason that Jessica “stood out” was a lot more about the fact that she was wearing light color clothes which no one around her was doing. This point cannot be over emphasized. Now I’m sure you all called each other that morning and discussed what you were going to wear so Jessica couldset that all up. Right? And the photographer does assignments for Penthouse as well ………..
Has everyone lost their fucking minds? Here’s a newsflash: everyday white people have meetings and there are no black people there. Why are we all turning on each other? We’ve attacked the bloggers for enjoying the lunch, for having breasts, and for being white. Progressives’ sure know how to eat their young.
I want to point out something else, a subtext in the Althouse situation.
Both Althouse and Jessica were featured panelists at BlogHer this past July on political blogging.
Hmm. Now I really, REALLY wished I’d gone to BlogHer.
Rayne @ 177
I’m predominantly WASA.
Great post, TRex.
I rarely comment here, but I had to pipe up and let you know that I appreciate the refusal to put up with bullshit. I first started reading this website for the Plame material, but I quickly found that I loved the well-written, often-frank subject matter of the other entries. I have to say, my favorite blog entry of all time is from FDL: Jane’s Time/Wonkette/Sullivan Bukkake post. What a classic.
So thanks for the late night reading!
Jac,
She don’t mix biz and pleasure!
Also, lookat this:
Sept. 22 - 24. VOTERS-VALUES SUMMIT _ Family Research Council’s legislative action arm holds “Washington Briefing: Values Voter Summit 2006,” with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Ann Coulter, Newt Gingrich, Bill Bennett, others.
Voters Values:
Let’s see, a two time adulterer who screwed staff, a degenerate gluttonous gambler, a prevaricating toady who has breached treaties and broken laws and a sociopathic gutter whore.
-GSD
Hey folks, has anyone seen any of Irving Normans paintings,,,,,man are they huge. Physically and subject matter. Try IrvingNorman.com and be amazed!
I went to a Diane Benson ( http://bensonforcongress.com/ ) fundraiser tonight in Wasilla. She’s running against Don Young (R - British Petroleum), the only congressman in DC who ties Jack Abramoff, Tom DeLay, BP and Veco up in one nice little corruption package.
Diane is very poised. Her son, Lateen, was injured severely in his third deployment to Iraq. He’s one of hundreds of stop-loss victims. Lateen had been scheduled to get out of the Army just before his injury. Two weeks ago, when Rumsfeld was in Fairbanks to talk to families of the Stryker Brigade, which has been extended indefinetely in their Iraqi deployment, some of the family members invited Diane up to hear Rumsfeld’s spiel, which wasn’t open to the public or press.
When Rumsfeld began taking questions, Diane was tempted to ask one. But, she says she was learning so much about how these families have come to distrust Rumsfeld’s politicized Pentagon, she just listened and learned.
Diane is from a Tlinget warrior clan and she really despises people like Rumsfeld. Rummy did serve, unlike so many yellow elephants. But she ran off a litany of complaints from other military moms, wives, husbands and friends who have had to hock their car or house or whatever to pay for the best body armor, which still isn’t all that available five years into this fiasco.
I see what you mean but IMO she deserved to slapped down. While it’s true that possible Peter could have been more careful that the guest list was more diverse. The fact is that he invited the bloggers with the most traffic first and did say they planned to have other luncheons. But damnit, Jane had nothing to do with any of Liza’s bitching and I’m glad that TRex rode in on his white horse and rescued the fair damsel. (LOL sorry, I could resist that last line, funny mental image, a TRex on a horse)
Good Morning everyone,
Liza, I think the ball is in your court now. So, what can you do with it?
Meanwhile back at the BigLake, “dominant culture” “usual suspects” are always open to increased diversity, and the blogosphere is about as “blind” to disclosure as is possible. Notwithstanding that the blogosphere is as weighted in favor of “dominant culture” “usual suspects” as any community, it seems that the playing field is about as level as it can be.
I have been involved in the “activist/organizing” community for a long time, and I can say that even though TRex posts are in general “snark tenor,” I feel this post raises good issues, and I hope the result will be that the greater depth of the waters is plumbed while we are all challenged to go deep, as well.
I think most of the readers of this blog do know that there is a lot of diversity here. At the same time, I know that the reason I really became interested in FDL is because there is a lot of really bright information posted here, not only by the principals but the readers as well. And there is a great sense of community too.
My greatest hope is that what results from the conversation with BigDog and the others around the table will be more respect for the depth of knowledge that our communities have to offer the Democratic Party and leadership. I hope they take to heart the offers of bloggers to become better informed and provide better counter to the blather that happens on Sunday mornings as well as morning, noon and night in MSM.
If some of this comes from other arcs of the blogosphere than have been visible to the BigDog and his co-horts, great. But up to now, I honestly think we should just be thrilled that some were invited to the table. The door is open now, I think, and I hope this will lead to more opportunities for everyone.
So dig it. If you think you have something to contribute, get your blog on, one way or another. You go Jane, FDL, Christy, Pach, TRex and everyone.
I haven’t commented here in a looooonnnnngggg time. Anyway, reading Liza’s post, Steve Gilliard’s commentary on it and the comments, and now this, it seems like this is a big to-do about nothing, but at the same time it raises a valid issue in spite of Liza’s immature way of handling it. Pam Spaulding has addressed this and her post raises some very good points http://www.pamspaulding.com/we.....eally.html
I think it comes down to Liza wrote her post off the cuff, without bothering to get in touch with Peter Daou first, or verifying the assertion she makes about FDL not linking to or hosting bloggers of color. It turns out that Oliver Willis was invited, but no one knew that. How could they? But in fact, looking at the picture of all the bloggers with Clinton, one is struck by the fact that they’re all white, or, at least, all look white. And I think that issue begged to be addressed.
Andrew
fahrender @ 165
The natural media frame for this is “liberal blonde chick from hollywood gets smacked down by a black sister.”
You’ll note that there is no actual content in that, nor any connection to reality or the factual debate. But you know that if there was anything at stake, if this was noticed by Fox, that would be the way they’d think of writing the headline.
Not that I know what to do about this.
I hate identity politics. Can’t we all just get along?
Mocha Dem - heh. When you put it that way…
I’m waiting for the conflation of the off-record concerns from yesterday with today’s white-breasts-lunch memes.
Or emergence of another controversy we haven’t yet seen. What could it be?
GSD @
185
what’s not to like?
Andrew,
Welcome back.
Jane Hamsher @ 171
Very odd, people like *ilson and I noticed the high ratio of WOMEN bloggers represented in the group photo with Clinton, right off the bat. That should have been commended, especially by Althouse and Liza, not the rest of the bullshit. Was there a mention that Clinton plans on having many more of these blogger pow wows by either of them?
Yeish! Don’t f*ck with TRex.
bg @ 189
No one has mentioned that blacks are disadvantaged relative to whites economically and wrt educational opportunities. So I would not be surprised if they were under-represented in the blogosphere because they are less likely to be able to afford a computer, or less likely to have completed the development of their writing skills.
op99 — WASA? you mean those delightful whole-grain Scandinavian flatbreads?
Yum.
Kewalo (#188): I think we’re on pretty much the same page. Tactics are important. That would be my concern with this “affair”.
traingular gutters (#191) yup. it isn’t about content, it’s about emotion and perception. i won’t even go into motive…..
and by the way, you sure do have one puzzling moniker…….
Good on ya, TRex and Jane. Calling out people who lie (and, adding insult to injury, write badly) about you is the right and proper thing to do. And concern trolls, no matter what color or sex they are, deserve to be swatted back with wet word-noodles. This Sonja the ad-hominem troll particularly annoyed me, because she’s all about getting into “deeper” social issues while continuing to drivel her shallow shit. As for Liza, I hope never to hear about her no-talent ass again.
But, Jessica, sweet angelic Jessica with the big feminist boobs, I really like her…for her mind.
Rayne @ 199
I mean I ain’t no Protestant, lol.
triangular gutters @ 191
Or, for our younger audience:
White She Devil vs. Sistah Girl
;>)
op99 @ 198
the blogosphere is populated by a very small subset of the population. there is, in this country, a black middle class which is well-educated. do we, in fact, know how many african americans are out there blogging or lurking? i don’t.
Op99,
But bottom line, people from any background who have both access and desire to participate in the blogosphere don’t necessarily put their racial/ethnic/class bonafides ahead of all other info. So while we can discuss the economic/educational etc. elements that favor one group over another, the blogosphere is really a very opportune element in that it really does provide as much of a level playing field as almost anything I can imagine at this point.
This media is also tilted against the elderly, who may have the economic ability but lack the technical skill. And I think younger people, who have grown up with computers in the schools, will also be participating in greater numbers. Considering that public education utilizes computers/ethernet as much as it does, the access will flow to people who have less economic purchase as well.
On par, I still think we are seeing a great opportunity for more voices. And those voices are not coming automatically, with tags–age, race, class, gender, etc.
fahrender @ 204
That’s why I phrased it “I would not be surprised.”
op99 (198) — the demographics are changing, per a December 2005 Pew American Internet Life report:
There are other factors that will work to change the demographics over the short run, including the explosion of social networking sites like MySpace and Facebook, combined with the increasing ubiquity of internet-enabled cellphones and increasing use of computers in the public school classroom. I don’t buy the idea that there are barriers to blogging that are structural; it may be that blogging has lower value compared to other competing activities in certain groups.
Op99 - I’m not comfortable with your final comment - black authors abound as do illiterate whites.
Rayne and all,
And the best part of this is that the FDL discussion, here in the middle of the night, ranks for good information, good analysis and community.
Woo Hoo!!
bg at 205, agreed. I’m also speaking from my experience of attending YKOS, which was lily white. One can’t help but speculate why.
I would also second Pam Spaulding’s post on the situation:
http://www.pamspaulding.com/we.....eally.html
As she rightfully notes, Peter has been excellent on the Daou Report with linking to people from all different races, genders and sexual orientations. To blame him reflexively without even asking him what was up was a nasty piece of business that really didn’t seek the truth of the situation — but that might’ve short-circuited all the fun self-righteous histrionics, now wouldn’t it?
We also need to remember that progressive blogs are merely one small corner of a very large blogosphere.
Nobody seems to have mentioned that the most visible lefty blogger of them all (i.e. Markos) is Hispanic, and is such a big cheese that Clinton was only able to get one of Kos’s white “underlings” instead of Kos himself.
Rayne @ 207
i think this whole area of enquiry is pretty interesting. the possibility, at least, of a more level playing field coupled with the aspect of anonymity that the blogosphere affords…..
Well, the political blogs are not specifically focused on race, ethnicity, gender, etc.
If this blog was primarily about race or about how race/class (whatever) issues impact politics (for example), then the readership and participation in YKos (for example) would have reflected that element.
I know a hot young Latina writer who has a blog, and she does focus on her ethnic background and on how she would prefer that she does not appreciate being pigeonholed. She has a large percentage of Latina/Latino readers who read her blog and support her books because she raises issues, political, cultural, etc. And when she holds an event related to her blog and her books, most of the people who attend identify with the Latina thing.
Politics in this country is still mostly an anglo game, except in places like NM, which has a long history of race/ethnic/class elements. And of course whereever there are large blocks of voters where race is a big factor.
Siun — op99 does have a point, although it gets really painful and sticky to address effectively.
Search for “Detroit” on this page and note the following:
(c. 2001 Detroit Free Press article)
The demographics of Detroit suggest that the population most affected is overwhelmingly African-American.
The challenge is that while Detroit ranked in the lowest 5 cities for literacy, nearby Ann Arbor (home of University of Michigan) is in the top five cities at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Perhaps if we talk about the numbers rather than the groups we’re on safer ground. The challenge is real, but not insurmountable, in regards to increasing the diversity of bloggers; the greater challenge which is not necessarily a blogging issue is that our society has not yet solved the problem of illiteracy, particularly among minority groups.
Ed*ard Teller @
194
Thanx!!
I think you all would be surprised at how many seniors are online these days. op99, I was at YK and there were quite a few people in my age group (over 60) But I did notice how lily it was. I know it’s a discussion we on the left should have, but damnit, I can’t usually tell what ethnic group someone belongs to unless they choose to share it. I very often don’t get age or gender either.
So, maybe I’m crazy but since we can’t tell strictly from reading someones posts shouldn’t they be the ones to initiate that conversation? I’m willing, but how does one start this conversation unless on knows who is what? Do we, as a bunch of white folks (I assume) just start talking about race? Frankly, I feel a little confused about the whole issue.
Good late night, FDL. I figure the mods are likely quite busy and can use an Espresso Martini or a soda and lime.
And, the blogosphere is also particularly friendly to people who are deaf, physically challenged and perhaps, blind.
So another element we have not fully taken into consideration when doing this sort of evaluation.
beard5 — I’m right behind you; think my bout of insomnia is now done for the night.
‘Niters, FirePups.
G’nite from NM too.
Rayne @ 207
Thanks for the stats and your insights. I’d be interested in the ethnic makeup of the internet population relative to the general population.
Siun @ 208
I struggled with the phrasing. My hypothesis, which I would be delighted to have shredded, is that people in the economic and educational underclass would be less likely to be bloggers, and currently blacks are over-represented in that group. I’m NOT saying “blacks are too dumb to write.” As a progressive I’m all about equalizing educational OPPORTUNITY for all.
LOL TRex is so talented. He is a good writer, yes. BUT the WAY he puts the words together and his dead-on observations are GREAT! Go, TRex!
The way this thread is going is one of the best examples I’ve seen yet of how dynamic this new paradigm is becoming. TRex started out here on Friday latenite at fdl with a semi-flame at a blogger whose blog page reminds me of some of the student papers I get. They don’t get “A’s.”
There is no such thing as race. The physical appearances of our bodies are infinite and unpredictable in all races. But the similarities of human minds among all races are much closer than such differences within any race.
op99
@ yKos: when we were messing with the pictures and drinking beer, there was a conversation nearby about just this topic - look @ all the white faces!
The next morning, really early, I was sitting outside a meeting room charging my laptop, and met a journalist who had been prowling the event for MSNBC. He asked me if I considered the event a “white blogger convention”. When I told him to FUCK-OFF, he snickered and wandered off.
It’s a very sticky topic, and I have no idea how I would approach it. Glad you did, though.
Jane Hamsher @
211
Yes Jane, it would have. However, this started because of a photograph, and looking at that photo, one of the things that comes to mind is “Weren’t there any Black bloggers they could get to this thing?” Admittedly, Liza did not do her homework, but I think the fact that she saw this goes to her credit. (Full disclosure: I do not know who Liza is; I have never read her blog before; I was not around for the blackface fracas.)
I am speaking as a Black person. And having said that, I don’t expect whites to feel the same way about this issue that I do. The photo struck me as odd (and along with the fact that it was held in Harlem . . . well) But even after first looking at the photo, I didn’t place any sinister motive behind the racial representation of the bloggers. And having found out who you were and knowing the work you do, I would give the benefit of the doubt to all of you guys, and I think that is what Liza should’ve done in the first place.
Slightly OT: (old-school FDL?)
I am on the West coast and wake up late, so I am always playing catch-up in the threads. So, if someone else posted these already, apologies.
Ned Lamont radio spot: Fear
Ned Lamont radio spot: fairy tale
Kewalo @ 218
I think free time was a factor in YKos attendance, too. I noticed the age range of volunteers on the campaign I’m working on barbelled with lots of age 60 plus folks, and lots of teens to early twenties, but not too many working age folks like me. Damn job takes up way too much time, lol.
E*dard Teller 187
solders still need body armour, or do they just want the best armour? How about armour for Humvees? I thought they had solved this by now!
Tug @
197
Or anyone who I love.
I know, I contradicted myself in # 225. But, as I mentioned way above, I didn’t know I wasn’t “white” until I was 18.
But I do know this:
General Election all 50 States:
1 month, 21 days, 14 hours, 44 minutes, and 26 seconds
newtonusr @ 226
Yeah, and since it was a completely self-selected crowd, it’s a question of why no black people selected themselves. I suspect it’s economic (at least I hope there’s not some big ideological divide).
Op99 - I understand but I also think that most white readers ignore and are unaware of the wealth of current black writing and the lively, engaged black audience for that writing.
Those of us who are white and who do not seek out other racial and cultural circles have little idea what is out there …
Look at the amazing writing featured on Def Poetry and growing out of the latino community in NY for example. Way out in front politically and gutsy.
The fastest growing literary market (if I’m remembering correctly) is the black fiction market - if I weren’t sleepy, I’d go find the numbers.
mOropeza @ 229
They haven’t. National guard units vary incredibly. The Stryker Brigade, an elite Regular Army unit, is taking casualties in fairly new vehicles which aren’t designed for the environment they have to transit day after day.
Sometimes actual armor isn’t an issue. Some of the IED explosions are quite huge. When we went in there we left 90 % of the Iraqi arms depots unsecured. That one’s gone down the MSM memory hole, hasn’t it?
Siun @ 233
Sounds like the makings of a great post - with links. hint, hint.
Morning, Folks.
Just wanted to pipe up to say that PaTrex is in the house. Just got home from an Atlanta gig and drank much coffee so I could survive the drive. Now the missus and the dogs and I are all in a pile and I am the only one awake.
My ears are still ringing, and then I read TRex’s scalding flaming of Liza.
TRex and I will talk about this tomorrow, but I cannot assure you that I would have attacked Liza with such ferociousness if I was in his shoes. I might have gotten just as angry, but as a straight white man, I am often more cautious to lash out at people of color in a public forum.
Just, I think, because I am anxious to avoid the appearance of using my (imaginary construct #1) race and (imaginary construct #2) sexual orientation as platforms from which to rain down my prodigious derision upon some hapless victim.
For better or for worse, my twin is not so constrained.
op99 @ 228
You could very well be right about the free time. But I wouldn’t underestimate how many of us are online.
It’s been very nice tonight, I’ve enjoyed the ‘conversation.’
G’night.
There was a bunch of controversy pre-ykos about the lack of treatment of racial issues on the planned program. The reports I heard was that bloggers were invited to speak without regard to race and the panels, etc were pretty representative of the progressive blog community.
I would like to see more exploration of how the white progressive blogosphere can ally with groups like Colour of Change for example - we share so many issues and analyses.
That said, Liza’s bit is so whack precisely because Jane is one of the bloggers who does address race and sees the need to build alliances.
Patrick @ 236
If I felt for one instant that Liza really cared about the ethnic make-up of that meeting, I would never have written this, but it was clear to me from her tone that she was just lobbing grenades for attention, and that she has some kind of bitchy ax to grind with Jane.
And she told a bunch of bald-faced lies. And her writing is truly execrable.
It just felt like something that needed to be done.
You need to go to bed, my twin. It’s almost five o’clock in the morning.
Ed*ard Teller
This lack of armour for our solders, the asbestos the 9/11 Firemen and Police breathed in because bush and Rudy didn’t warn them. Pakistan telling us they wouldn’t hunt for Bin Laudin anymore or let us hunt for him either despite the weapons Pakistan bought (which I’m sure bush won’t cancel their sale) AHHH! this is the worst week of the bush presidency since Katrina!
mOropeza @
230
they’ve solved it. it’s rumsfailed who hasn’t solved it…….
Remember the Ports Deal — when the preznit tried to convince the everyone that “Dubai is a wonderful, modern, Western city”?
Ah, memories.
Okay, bedtime. The cats have declared that enough is enough. It’s time for some snuggling and ear-scratching.
Good night!
TRex @ 243
Good night, brother.
I will fall asleep soon. Just waiting for the caffeine and the (kinda disappointing) gig to wash out of my system.
Siun @ 238
Amen. So much progress has been made in the past 50 years in civil rights, so little in “race relations.”
TRex @ 240
Therapods on their way to a gig need to be careful to turn the lights out in the house and not start semi-flame wars before they leave.
Welcome back, Trex.
Op99 - hmmmmm … I’ll have to think about that - thanks.
before I sleep (and since I have an early plane to catch, sleep is very soon!) - one of the events I most want to attend someday is the Calabash Literary Festival held in a tiny town on the souther coast of Jamaica. Education is hard to come by there (school fees and expenses are mighty high for residents, etc and poverty rates are high) yet each memorial day weekend, 6,000 Jamaicans gather for a full weekend of literature of all sorts … from Shakespeare in patois to a few visiting major authors … and everyone just hangs out digging the beauty of language.
http://www.calabashfestival.org/2006/index.htm
When I visited the town 2 years ago a local author who now lives in Massachusetts was back home for a bit and the entire town turned out for a poetry reading … amazing night with whole families gathered simply to listen and relish the beauty …
In the course of defending Jane and talking off topic I noticed some people having a decent conversation about race. The number of internet ussers and bloggers broken down by race, the need to build bridges etc. It was nice reading… there’s hope yet!
and now for some sleep …g’nite Op99 and Rayne and Trex and all!
Siun-
if you have an early plane to catch…. you must not be in Chicago right now… because it’s early in EST right now!
I think I might be winding down, but I wanted to mention that I used to live in Rogers Park. I have great dining recommendations if you’re ever curious…
mOropeza @ 241
When I watched W alternately falsely cajoling and intimidating, lecturing, and shouting down the reporters in his press conference this morning, I felt so disgusted. But nobody but us is pushing back.
If the US House Dems don’t introduce a motion to strip Ney of his seat at 0800 on Monday, I fear the whole week was another one weakly lost…..
Night all, from the east coast. With my sleeping patterns I should live in Japan.
Patrick … I always love restaurant ideas … Chicago is a great city to eat in!
Had an amazing dinner recently at the Green Zebra - a treat by a friend to celebrate her b-school acceptances - best food ever ever.
Please share ideas next time we’re both online since I really do need some sleep - meeting my UK coworkers in Louisville tomorrow/today and I need to be …ummmm… on my toes
ps - Rogers Park was my other possible neighborhood but Hyde Park has won my heart.
g’night siun.
I will be making a list until we speak again. Safe travels.
Hey,
I’m a white, female, working-class blogger carrying an hispanic, differently-abled fetus. Nobody links to me. I’d like to whine about discrimination too, but which angle should I play? Race? Gender? Disability? Class?
Still a dark and early morning here in Eastern Maine. Anyone else up? Peace and blessings all around………
Morning OS. I’m up. My sleep patterns are completely disrupted, this past week.
How’s it going up there in the wilds of Maine?
mOropeza @ 249
It’s interesting, in a way. Blogging–through the sometimes derided anonymity that accompanies it–is sort of the great leveler. Unless someone is using their name and identifying themselves, there’s no way of knowing, for sure, identity of any sort. In a very elemental fashion, all that counts is what is said, and how well it is said.
I’m with you beard. Sleep patterns all disrupted this week. Don’t know why. I guess it’s all going okay, though the news seems more disturbing than it has for a while, doesn’t it? This gal is Edgy Edgy.
As far as the natural world goes, we are just starting to see some color in swamp maples, and a few trees are starting the yellow up. But we never lost the brilliant greenness throughout the summer, which is highly unusual, and we have yet to have a frost, which is not uncommon for our coastal location.
I am a little twisted up from having all fingers and toes and limbs “crossed” for luck that the offer we’ve had on a property we are selling, and the potential second offer from a showing yesterday will pan out and we will see a sale!!!
Hi, OS and beardy, and Good Morning all!
Wish you could see me waving atchers, but maybe somebody wandering this way later, after this gets sprung from mod, will tell you that I did.
Existential dilemma: if a lotus on a pond types a wave of her petals that nobody sees . . .
Aw nemmind, caffeine’s what I need first; philosophy, take a number.
montag 259
you have a point what counts is what is said and how well it is said. People I think really want to be respected for their writting/thoughts/whats inside (corny as it sounds) this medium gives us a chance to be free of identity and lets us be judged by what and how well we write. We are drawn to FireDogLake by common interests but we compete to write the best posts to get attention for our view of the situation we are commenting on. Still quite often I must remark on others views because they are great, or like todays miniflame war just wrong. Yet nobody prejudges me here because they see my race. This is why I have hope!
Jane Hamsher may be many things that dear Liza might not like, but calling her an “idiot” and starting a flame war is not the smartest thing to do, no matter what color your skin is. For her sake, I hope Liza’s is fire proof.
It doesn’t help her credibility as a critic that she also is a bad writer who doesn’t fact-check (or, it seems, spell-check, either) before she goes off half-cocked. If she’d done any investigation at all, she could’ve discovered that Oliver Willis (black) and Kos (Latino) had been invited to the Clinton lunch. Of course, reporting those facts would’ve destoyed her central thesis — that it was racist that she wasn’t invited. Maybe, just maybe, she wasn’t invited because she’s not very important, except to herself.
If I were Peter Daou (who I believe is also an ethnic minority), I certainly would’ve invited Steve Gilliard. I thought he was one of the best writers in blogtopia before I discovered he was black. But, as he states, he wouldn’t have gone if he were invited anyway.
Perhaps Daou should have gone out of his way to insure the politically correct balance on the guest list, but what I found interesting in the picture was not only that they were all white, but that there were so many women there.
At any rate, I’m sure that after this kerfuffle, the next time there’s a blogger lunch with Clinton, you will see more blacks and other minorities in the picture.
Kos Latino I thought he was Greek? What is he Mexican, Spanish etc does he blog in Spanish I got friends who might dig his stuff and would love to claim him
Old Sow @ 260
We’re getting a bit of color change down here, some of the sumac has shifted to red (very pretty) and some of the chokeweed has shifted to yellow (makes it easier to find and rip out)And one of the maples is thinking about going red, there’s just a hint of the color along the edges of the leaves. If it’s anything like last year, it’ll be the most spectacular red when it’s done.
Good luck on the sales. My folks have just had their signing yesterday. (House has been on the market 9 months…but the economy is just fine according to George) So I think there’s something good in the air, at least on that front.
I type at a desk snugged up to a window. It’s still dark here, and there’s a big fat cat sleeping on my desk.
I’ve just looked up and spied what I first thought was the World Champeen Chameleon (which is what we locally call anoles, though we know better). On second look, I get that it’s actually a good-sized frog cruising the moths. Meanwhile, Ripple has awakened and come over to crowd my mouse-hand.
If Sir Frog makes a big enough move to catch her attention, my phone, clock, bierstein of desk-utensils and speakers on the windowsill will prolly go flying.
New existential dilemma: Do I draw the cats away to the kitchen for an early breakfast-serving (meanwhile tapping the window to startle Sir Frog)? Or do I just hang out and await developments?
Ah, Ripple’s returned to her resting sprawl again — only a bit of tail-tip still alert.
Sir Frog, your underside is not especially beauteous, though I do admire your long middle toes and the beat of your throat.
Whoops — so does Ripple! Full alert now.
But wait — Froggie’s climbed out up of sight and the Defender of the Desk merely yawns and begins ablutions.
One crisis averted, at least . . .
I followed some of those links since I’m still up and having tea. Noticed in her update Liza says:
But over on the The Republic of T. blog on the “Write Your Own Caption” thread that she and others linked to I find this:
WTF? Ouch, stumped toe. Complains about racism but she had already suggested another blogger should have engaged in racism, and then be cutsey about it with the ‘heh.’ Just a *cough* joke I’m sure.
In the comment just above that one she says:
Not sure what happened to Chris Rabb and Earl Dunovant that she cited in her own thread in question. Didn’t know she was “in the top 100″ as I haven’t heard of her until today either. :)
Sorry radlib1 262 just checked wikipedia San Salvadoran and Greek also from my part of Illinois I thought I knew everybody? still I hope he starts blogging in spanish even just a little or he could do a video newscast in spanish. A San Salvadoran sends an UNDERLING to meet the President of the United States, A great president mind you! This news would shock the burbs lotta San Salvadorans movin in but I’m in Seattle now and noone would believe me over a phone!
The photo shows that the glass is half full and no seems to notice - CW has it that WOMEN are still in the minority in the blogosphere but lookie at how many women are in that group. Youv’e come a long way! Be proud!
OS, if you’re still here, let me share breakfast with you. A couple slices of garlic bread (Texas toast, is my kind) poached eggs, and sausage. Pretty quick and easy, and damned tasty.
OS, we’ve got a shout out from Lotus!
and
Why, beardy, you sneaky pete! Haw, thanks for the boost outta jail!
Here, may I offer you some fresh-cut pineapple with your breakfast? What’s the latest on spinach, btw?
Beard, skip the sausage, but I’m on for the rest of it. I do think that a little food will settle some of the jitters.
Thanks for bringing our Flower to my attention.
Hi Lotus!!!
I’m catching up with some e-mail correspondence in between FDL and FDL. I usually also read Antiwar.com but Heavenly Days, I’ve not got the heart for it today. Soon I will dress (pajama commenter here) and go to my food buying club delivery at 7am, here in town, thank goodness, and help to unload the order, collect my goods and return home.
The day is starting to look like it might be clear. It didn’t get very cold last night, so today might be a good one for out of doors!!
Mmmm, the garlic bread is great, Beard.
Hi lotus I remeber you saying hi to me about a week ago…after I went to sleep I saw your comment when I woke up in the afternoon nice to meet you
latest on spinach is that it looks like the contaminated spinach *may* have come from a single farm, but that they’re still saying, avoid the bagged spinach, frozen is fine.
beardy, if you’ve got time for a bit, I’ll just keep this up until you gotta get to illuminating or sewing and *ilson goes on mod duty — thanks again, by the way!
OS, that food buying club sounds interesting. You’re in a rural area, right? Is this a neighborhood thing y’all do? How does it work?
I’m working on the final large section of knotwork on the calligraphy. After this is done, I can call the project one third done. (urk *diez ded*)
after this I can do the monogram (B & R) I can put a dragons head on the B, and tuck the ‘r’ into the middle of it (and then more knotwork on the b) and that doesn’t even cover the name of the recipient (*diez dedder*)
Yes, hi again, mOropeza! It’s always a treat to run across folks in real time that I’ve only seen “after-the-fact” before. Pleased to meet you.
Oh, in case fahrender is around, hi to you too. Did you see this yesterday?
lotus @ 142
[If between emailing beardy and all, I’ve just created a big nest of quotes trying this, my apologies … really wondering how it’s going to look when it’s finally onscreen.]
Beard–I’ve always loved illuminated manuscripts. My mother was a medievalist, though her area of specialization was cathedral architecture and accompanyinig sculptural programs. To this day, I am inspired by manuscripts, and even did a wonderful humorous page once for a dear (now departed) medievalist friend. Sigh. Do you use mostly gouache?
G’ night all! I got to get some sleep!
Jane Hamsher @ 18
Unfortunately, that kind of thing isn’t limited to Liza, or to any particular group or genre. There’s a lot of bitterness out there, and a lot of pretense-laden pandering for readership. It’s sad.
Thanks, Jane, to you and all the other contributors here, for keeping things real.
and
Old Sow @ 274
Almost exclusively gouache over here, OS. Very, very rarely I’ll use a bit of acrylic to cover up a mistake. (which I may need to do soon)
Os and beardy, I’ll never forget how entranced I was to discover illuminated manuscripts back in — what? — freshman art appreciation?
If we fall in love with them so easily, imagine how they must have captivated the people of the Middle Ages, when they were one of the few visual arts to be seen: sacred text, cartoon, TV, movie, painting all-in-one.
And no wonder the Church became so powerful in European culture, as by far the major source and patron of art. (D’ya suppose there was a Cardinal Rove?)
Trex hates me for no good reason. No wait. Jane hates me and didn’t invite me because I am fat. Y’all hate fat people. Didn’t see any in that foto. It’s a conspiracy against the growing {heh}
minoritymajority.Okay guys, I want to be on the front page too. It’s only fair.
Beard 278…..it’s knowing how to deal with mistakes that makes one a master of one’s craft. ..back shortly……
lotus @ 279
Lordy I hope not, though there were a good number of corrupt cardinals bishops and abbots (abotts? feh!) On the other hand they did leave behind a grand tradition of art. If only our current crop of corrupt officials could think the same way. *sigh*
If only our current crop of corrupt officials could think the same way. *sigh*
Aye, and amen, beardy. Instead we’ve got — among others — Badmouth Benny doing his best to antagonize.
Here’s Anthony Shadid’s take on that.
Oh, beardy, I see I’m out of mod above now, so I won’t bother you with more emails. Thank you very much indeed for helping this morning! And thank you too, *ilson.
Thanks to everyone for the writings of the day. Couldn’t get it all read and night is closing in fast…11 pm, Sat night.
This is what I dislike. I’m always trying to pull up a chair on Sat morning, but by the time I get up the rest of you have already left the table, shoved the chairs in, done the dishes, and wandered outside.
But seriously, I come here for the good and varied thoughts, the excellent links, the heads-up on issues. We may be wandering back to the US in the next year or so, but we hesitate. Still, this site gives me hope.
HI, NZE — can’t tell you how many times I’ve said hi to you just after you’ve left, grrrr. This is probably another one, but anyhow . . . sure is nice to have you in our mix!
Good morning all! Got a little lie in this morning — yea! Have to go to work today….
:~(
Can’t wait for Mary’s take on this one from NYT:
Link to a pdf of the letter here.
Oh, I wasn’t thinking the Church, Lotus, I was thinking more of the crop in Washington. (Fertile ground for such a bumper crop of corrupt leaders)
I’d love to see them doing investment in the arts on a Medieval scale.
Good morning Imm! Here have a mug of coffee, and some poached eggs on garlic bread.
NZ–but what’s so great about the Lake is that there’s usually someone up 24-7!! So, if now is when you pull up a chair, well hello. And if you want something moved to that thread because you have to leave, just ask ;~)
Hi Imm, are you planning to wear a yellow tie today?
Sonya exposes the troll game above, which is to completely muddy the waters with faux charges of racism against the left when in fact the Rethugs are racist 100% of the time, structurally. Anyway, I thought Big Dawg was black. Ignore all this drivel from people like Lisa.
News for us tea devotees:
Tea’s Got a Brand New Bag
beard5 @ 292
Thank you!! Yum yum!
It is amazing to me that there are issues of “blogotry” going on thru blogtopia wrt the Clinton Luncheon. When I was served the pics of the Clinton luncheon, I only felt jealousy and experienced a side order of envy. Why in hell wasn’t I invited? Because I didn’t own a blog? How utterly selfish and narcissistic of me to think of myself! Now, since it has been brought to my attention that there were no interblogracial diners sitting at the table, I would like to apologize for allowing my jealousies to overcome my lack of black awareness and for my apparent slippage of the latino grasp.
I did, however, notice the gays.
Still, the Pope, however separate he may feel from the other leaders/spokespeople, is from the rest of the “dead white men in power” crowd. With statements like his recent one, he acts like the rest of those corrupt b*stards, in which crowd I include all the hate mongerers from the US to Korea, to well, you name it…the field’s wide open.
Talk about pouring gasoline on a (smoldering) fire. Hello!
HEY! That’s not even funny!
:~)
Well, I’m feeling like America is at one of its lowest and most depraved junctures as a nation. I mean, we’re in the midst of a national debate about the meaning of human dignity. Yes, we’re in the throes of Olympic style hair-splitting over how to put lipstick on torture. And what does The Chimpness do? He kicks dirt in our faces and whines that he will take what marbles he has left and go home if we don’t straighten out. As if that bit of smarmy meanspirited withholding is going to be the antidote for our lapse in blind obedience. So we won’t have interrogations at all? And it will be our own damn fault if we are attacked by terrorists? Gosh, he should have started reading some Shakespeares a long time ago.
I feel demoralized by the prospect of an endless parade of right wing morons parsing the term “torture” on our dime. Will Huckleberry, Maverick and ol’ Wisdom Warner be able to stand the heat? Or will the impending election and the scent of W’s breathe at the back of their necks find them falling to their knees begging for an end to that very thing they thought they knew? Who needs a signing statement when you have a President who insists on torturing us day in and day out, thinking we’re all hypothetical?
Don’t get into pissing contests with people with low traffic. It demeans you and drives up their traffic. Its just stupid. And you know, Liza is an idiot but her point is valid, –its just not a problem for the invited guests at that meeting. If you are invited to something and don’t know who else is coming or why its not really in your power to alter the guest list. If she is really pissed at clinton why doesn’t she write/blog about it. Then her copious readership can understand and think about her points. What’s that you say, she doesn’t have copious readership? YOu know, her point stands even if she is an idiot, says it for personal reasons, and could stand an editor.
aimai
I won’t do all these as hyperlinks, but here’s wot’s leading the Times of London’s global edition this morning:
Fury at Pope’s speech
Pope’s visit to Turkey is in doubt amid condemnation of remarks made that appeared to link Islam and violence
The University of Regensburg address
Homily on faith, logic and holy war
Leading article | Letters to the Editor
Errors of both fact and judgment
The Pope has a history of criticism of Islam. According to a leading Catholic, he believes Islam cannot be reformed
Where is John XXIII when we need him?!
Old Sow @ 297
Yes, this is particularly worrisome if you care about the planet at all, much less if you happen to be the religious leader of a major church. That he would even consider making such a public statement is beyond my comprehension. All we need is a match.
I like the blog war over the titties better. That one girl was cute.
meta at 299– (HI!)
If wew ere really engaged in a debate about the meaning of human dignity, that would be great. Sadly, what is going on is much worse. It is a power play to allow the executive branch to do things (which are still secret) without judicial oversight. Human dignity is certaonly lost in the process, but no one is debating its contours.
Even th epowerful golden rule argument (will the waterboard our soldiers) is only just barely about humane standards — it is as muct about posturing regarding our men and women in unifrom. By that I mean, the torturers would be happy to share their techniques with urban police interrogators.
My question, Does Bush think it would be OK to waterboard Jenna and not-Jenna?
Imm *g*…..wear red/orange and speak truth to power!
Meta, I so know what you are saying. This is a horrible sickening time on so many levels for anyone who is paying any kind of attention. It’s like we have to walk around in their fog of dishonesty and filth. And to walk among so many zombies, which is just as arresting and frightening.
At least we have the cool clear waters of the Lake…this place brings so much hope into my life, the fairly minor spats notwithstanding. Hey we’re family, mostly, and, well, we spit occasionally like cats, but then curl up together and purr.
OS, have you read the summary of his lecture (it wasn’t a speech, really, it was a lecture for theologians)? I don’t care for this particular Pope overly much. He’s a dinosaur (not one like T-Rex by the way) but the lecture itself made me try to find out if he was Jesuit or not, and I simply can’t find the info.
His intent wasn’t to offend, he was raising historical issues inside the Catholic Church.
(Note, I’m not defending him, or that’s not my intent, but the reaction would have been different if the news had been that the Pope gave a lecture on Historical issues in the Church and use of force in religion. The lecture sounds like it may have been boooooooring)
Liza is not worth the ink.
The anti-woman Althouse is another matter and a real problematic persona.
Tommy — HELLO!
You, sir, are a trouble maker.
Keep it up!
Hi Meta! here have some fresh coffee
Good morning, Imm!
tommy yum @ 302
Hi tommy. You have me laughing in the wee hours of the morning. Yeah, now it’s a crime to be cute. Arrest the whole gang!
It’s confusing, sad what women do to each other. I mean nowadays, with the cosmetic counter at Saks and the ubiquitous fleet of surgeons at our fingertips, it’s our own damn fault if we don’t look like Angelina!
HI Imm! You always remind me to think a bit deeper. Ta!
Minority blogger here. Would appreciate a little FDL love…
aimai @ 295
i agree (especially about your first statement). i told Trex that he came off like a bully. nobody responded to that point, which is ok. i think this liza person is really more angry about Big Dawg, whether or not she’s willing to admit it. she’s a grandstander and it’s all about her. if she were really thoughtful she could have made a point. she didn’t, really, but now she’s got a higher profile. it could be interesting to see if she does anything with it.
another thing that occurred to me was the Rove/money angle. if he’s been feeding her money he seems to have gotten a pretty good bang for his buck. pun intended.
Hey beard, thank you. I thought I would try to drift back to sleep but there’s no way. So yes, coffee would be lovely.
And Lotus, I really can’t stand this third and fourth party tin can on a string communication we’ve got going on here. Pull your chair into the center here and speak up. I’m getting tired just trying to locate you these days! It’s like you’re stuck in a cave somewhere in Blogostan.
Mack @ 318
Hi Mack!
{{{{{{MACK}}}}}}
Hey everyone, see who dropped by, it’s MACK!!
Hey Minority Mack, where have you been?
immanentize @ 299
he just might not think twice.
Imm, you don’t even own a yellow tie, do you?
This is Mack:
I don’t know how often you comment here, but our very own Mary4 is also very interested in horses (Kentucky). Please stick around and enjoy the chit and the chat!
meta @ 320
HoNEEE, don’t let me commence! Hit F5 and I’m here with da news (some of it), though.
HELLO, kate r, imm, tommy, Mack, fahr — alla y’all! F5 is my new BFF!
meta @ 324
Actually one of the very funny side lines to this whole discussion is that right when it started, my son (5 yrs) gave me a yellow tie for father’s day. I have to admit, I had to wear it once for him — but it was to a school event where no one really knows me :~)
Reading the comments for this post reminded me of advice from a favorite professor in graduate school. He reminded me of the importance of showing respect for those with whom we disagree.
meta @ 316
Meta, If I looked like Angelina….well, there’d be something dreadfully wrong with the world. (Okay, picture Angelina with full facial hair….now wash your brain out with bleach)
Ed Deevy @ 327
I am sure you realize how much willpower it took to repress the snarky response: “Yeah? Fuck you!”
Well, maybe I don’t have that much willpower after all….
:~)
Tommy!!
Beard, I understand that what the Pope said was meant in the context of history, and “not meant to offend”, and I even recognize the “truth” of what he said, given that he was quoting another writer. However, in the current climate of anxiety and posturing by folks who do see a religious conflict playing out here in this time, and in an era when no one can say anything that won’t get repeated, it was very insensitive, and insensitivity is a hallmark/mask of people who don’t mind tossing fuel into the fire.
I so worry that, thoughtless or thoughtful, comments such as his will only bring on more trouble, and so strongly feel that we all need to find peaceable ways to express ourselves while not allowing more abuse to go on. Not quite “If you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say anything”, but really, even to quote an author who said Islam has only brought violence, and to fail to acknowledge the less than pristine past of Xianity opens doors to the responses happening now.
Is there more coffee? ;~)
Imm, you son sounds like the cutest thing. Shower him with love and respect.
Sorry you have to work today. I’m going for lunch @ Chez Panisse. Hope they have some spinach on the menu.
Well said, OS. I can’t imagine what it’s like to be a proud Muslim in this world today.
THE Chez Panisse? I am very jealous — great restaurant, fabulous cookbook as well.
immanentize @ 315
hi mack! hi everybody else! i didn’t mean to barge in like that @ (#309) but i’d just gotten back on after doing the personal hygiene thing, running errands, etc.
mack,
i was born and raised (?) in Nashville (Inglewood, Litton High School, etc.). left in ‘65 and pretty much enver looked back. i don’t know what The New Agrarians is. there used to be a group of poets called the agrarians a i remember. i find it interesting when i come across business people who are Democrats. The Republicans like to think they have a monopoly on business people…
Mornin’ folks!
Hey, look what I found:
326
lotus says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:02 am
HoNEEE, don�t let me commence! Hit F5 and I�m here with da news (some of it), though.
HELLO, kate r, imm, tommy, Mack, fahr � alla y�all! F5 is my new BFF!
meta @ 332
Well, Ms. meta, I’d have you to know that I am going to Frederika’s in Holly Hill, Florida, for dinner tonight, so there!
Chez Panisse being, for me, a matter of dying and going to Heb’n, I can only say — you better march right back here and describe every last forkful in loving detail for us, you hear?
Don’t they sell fancy lingerie, Lotus?
I’ll be honest: the drama queen stuff is my least favorite thing about this blog. TRex can write a beautiful turn of the phrase, but this kind of post is so much putting practice for him, and not flattering. (I’m not singling him out or intimating he has the market cornered, either.)
I love community but abhor cliquishness. Love a good rhubarb but can’t stand flamin’.
Maybe Bill should have rattled his chains a little and warned about the circular firing squad. Are we to become like so many 1st century Christians, bitching about the other sects whilst being fed to the lions?
immanentize @
334
Yes, it’s the best. I interned there in the pastry kitchen a couple of summers ago. Sexiest workplace in the world. Well, at least in my workplaceworld.
Dunno ’bout no lingerie, imm, but I’ll ask. She sho’ got some fancy avgholemono!
Tommy Yum:
Agree! and remember –
“Follow the SHOE!”
lotus (#316):
hey MOMMA! speaking of Nashville, the last time i was there (visiting my dear sweet aunt, the last survivor of my momma’s siblings) i went to Shoney’s Big Boy in Inglewood for breakfast. The waitress was an African American woman about three times my size and she kept calling me “Baby”. “Baby, do you want grits with those eggs?” (i, pushing 70, bald, etc.). i still laugh about that……
Oh, Lotus. I hope you’re still celebrating your birthday. Please tell me about Frederika’s.
“Baby, do you want grits with those eggs?” (i, pushing 70, bald, etc.). i still laugh about that……
That may be my favorite feature of the South, fahr (so hard to pick). But sweet women who call every stranger “Baby” are just about impossible to top.
Good morning to everyone who’s up and plugged in.
I’ve just read through the late night (somewhere) early morning (my time) comments and was particularly struck by what meta says @ 299.
What I see happening is the Republicans always manage to suck us into their debates. So we wind up arguing whether spying on Americans is Ok, can you do it without a waterboard, should we or should we not rewrite the Geneva convention blah blah blah.
I fully believe that these are huge issues but I think we’re going at it the wrong way. We need to completely reframe the debate on our terms.
To give you an example, my husband just got home last night from a 10-day business trip with almost no time to stay current ojn the news. And when I told him that Bush said this week it wasn’t a good use of our resources to go after OBL, he went balistic, literally cussing Bush up one side and down the other, ending with “He oughta be impeached just for that.”
It’s time to expose these clowns for the sadistic brats they are.
What I think we need to do is, instead of responding to outrageous claims and demands with what we think are rationale arguments, we should just say RIDICULOUS.
As in…
You mean the US has the resources to build a moat around the entire city of Baghdad? But not the resources to go after the guy who helped kill neary 3000 Americans? RIDICULOUS!
You say the only way to keep America safe is to engage in torture just as the terrorists do? RIDICULOUS!
You expect us to believe that, if given unchecked power to eavesdrop on American citizens, you won’t abuse that power to spy on the press, your opponents, your critics? RIDICULOUS!
You get my drift. The way it’s going now, Dems are acting like these arguments are worth having when we should be making the case for why they’re NOT worth having.
Like when we were kids and whined to our parents to buy us a pony. My folks just looked at me and said Don’t be ridiculous. You’re not getting a pony.
End of discussion.
tommy yum @ 334
my bold
Well, meta, Frederika is about as wide as tall, and her little hole-in-the-wall is just two rooms in a tiny strip-center (NOT THAT KIND OF STRIP, imm) on US 1.
She has a mostly-’Murkan menu with four or five Greek dishes and some Greek wines, and she does special treats for her fave customers, among which my pals and I number. I can barely understand her English, but we’re great buddies and she cooks like a dream. Ever since I found her place, everybody knows without asking where I wanna go for my b’day.
immanentize @
339
That’s Frederika’s brother, Freddie.
some thoughts on blogs and racism before I leave later today to spend most of it at “Fiesta”, a citywide Latino fair — I’ll be there promoting the re-election of our Black Congresswoman. Eight years ago she had the first-ever Spanish-language campaign flyer in Central Indiana as well as the first-ever totally bilingual official website.
Last May there were gigantic Immigration Marches — folk here at FDL were friendly and supportive yet few had actually participated in one. You didnt have to be Latina to attend.
Often there’s not a ‘Black perspective’ in blogs. The eternal discussion about religion and Democrats just sounds stupid to anybody who is familiar with Black politics. Religion is all-pervasive there!
As far as the racial composition at the Clinton/Blogger thing:: Everybody in the room saw the ratios. Repubs would have been oblivious to the balances and would have been upset if anybody even raised the question. In Indiana (of all places), the Democratic Party is wonderfully diverse…
Big Shout out to *ilson!
alittlemusicalityplease, LOVE love love that idea. We’ve got a massive amount of things to do over the next few weeks, and wasting time on Republican nonsensical blah blah blah is stupid. It’s not our message.
tommy yum @ 330
right on target, tommy. there are times when we should rant and rave, scream and shout. if, however, we want our voice to resonate when it really counts, and there are some pretty big elephants shaking the foundations of this house right now, if we want to put those buggers away, we’d better be careful how we use our ammunition. we’d best save our voices for the big moment.
Lotus, that sounds delicious. I love Greek food. Well, anything Mediterranean. Whoever is in charge of our World Blogger Tour knows that, right?
*ilson, have a great time. BTW, are you by any chance following what’s happening in my beloved Oaxaca?
Top 25 Censored Stories of 2006
Oaxaca? something new recently? haven’t heard. Just been following the kerfuffle in the capital…
morning all and thanks meta for your 299.
wrt the Pope: c’mon, he knew what he was doing. He has all kinds of minions just like dubya has his including speechwriters (Gerson) who inserted uranium, axis of evil and crusades into his speeches. This is very troubling, particularly in the wake of the Danish “cartoons” and the perceived assault on the “Islamofascists” and Islam and the very real assault by war/occupation on not a few primarily Muslim countries/territories. I located this yesterday by a American U prof on Islam.
To me, it seems he was intent on setting that bridge afire.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story.....413_1.html
meta @ 355
I dare say whoever that is agrees, meta!
Weird thing around here. The area is fulla descendants of the Greeks (and Minorcans) of Sir Andrew Turnbull’s 18th-century indentured settlers, and a lot of them run restaurants. But they’re all pizza joints! Really hard to find a Greek menu, and even harder to find a good one hereabouts. I’m just glad to have my cookbook from Athens (a sentiment in which my friends join me).
You’re Oaxacan, meta? Talk about good eats!
someone pissed in my cheerios
Then there is this from James Zogby:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....29557.html
twolf1 @ 353
A look like that only comes from not enough ruffage….
:)
I’ve travelled to Oaxaca many times. I believe my grandmother’s ancestors are from there, but I can’t be entirely sure. It is a magical place.
Over the last several weeks, there has been a radical takeover of everything in town. This massive unrest has resulted in a total takeover of all media - newspapers, TV, radio - businesses are closed, the government is in lockdown, the entire police force has fled, and many streets are blockaded. And the mayor is saying that nothing is wrong! I’m trying to find out whether there is any blogging happening about it. Despite the fact that it’s a colonial city with about 16 indiginous Indian tribes in the region, there is a strong internet presence there.
Morning, angie. You know, I doubt anybody but Ratzinger himself wrote that lecture (old winger prof that he is). But why he felt the need to stick his oar in like this is beyond me. Of course, why the College of Cardinals picked him to begin with mystifies me.
It must just be the spirit of these wacked-out times that condemns us to loons like Bush, Blair, Putin, Ratzinger, Chavez, Berlusconi, bin Laden, Saddam, Ahmedinejad, Musharraf, Icouldgoonandon . . .
Oh Meta, that’s terrible news. Keep us up to date on what you are hearing. OS
Lotus — Chavez hardly belongs on that list of evil-doers. One of my pitbabies is named Hugo — another is Evo. My pitpuppy was just named Fidelito …
Over the last several weeks, there has been a radical takeover of everything in town. This massive unrest has resulted in a total takeover of all media - newspapers, TV, radio - businesses are closed, the government is in lockdown, the entire police force has fled, and many streets are blockaded.
Jeepers, meta! Who’s taken over? How/where are you finding what info you have so far?
I don’t have time to read all the comments here, but I just wanted to add that I’ve met Liza on several occassions at NY Kossak meetups. She’s not only very active politically in NY, but as sharp as they come and an all around good egg. Some of her posts on race and feminism are the most incisive I have read on the Web. These attacks on her are over-the-top and disappointing (and yet another reason that this blog is no longer a first-read for me as it once was).
I find it funny that you all delight in calling all sorts of people idiots, but have an utter shit fit when the same adjective is tossed at you. And, as is typical of most people who sit in a position of prviledge, when charged with insesitivity on the topic of inclusion, you attack the critic rather than address the issue. Which, yeah, there should have been some bloggers of color meeting with Bill and that no one thought to make that happen is pretty telling.
And TRex: I know your loyalty to this site and the bloggers in charge is undying, but I can’t help but think that with about two months to the election there are slightly better ways for you to spend you time than flaming another progressive blogger.
p.s. On a side note, last I looked, CultureKitchen, Liza’s blog, is on Kos’s blogroll.
Old Sow @
367
Terrible news? huh? it sounds like great news! democracy in action! scary and dangerous yes but wonderful …
*ilson, note that I’m not listing “evildoers” there but “loons” — maniacal egos who damn the consequences, lie for the hell of it, and are trying to lead their own and all of us to worse.
President Icouldgoonandon! LOL, lotus!
You may be right on the speechwriting thingy. I know he *ahem* apologized today, but how terribly unfortunate that he spoke those odious words.
(’cept I like Hugo Chavez!)
new thread
New thread all.
Can’t we all just get along???
I suggest a meeting at 4:20….worldwide.
It is gonna take all of us to take our country back.
It must be a landslide!
poor JaneKnowles! she certainly set herself up for major flammage. She layed out all sorts of political landmines in her comment.
Go easy on her and dont get distracted !
Jane,
I and others have criticized TRex tonight already. As for Liza.If she wants a dialogue on this issue of inclusion she picked the wrong way to start it. Liza blamed Jane, at least by implication, for the composition of the group meeting with Clinton. Jane had nothing to do with that.
This blog is about as inclusive as it is possible to be. If Liza is “as sharp as they come” the gene pool has dried up while nobody was looking. Either that or she was having a really bad day.
Guys, this thing bothers me a bit. I mean, okay, Liza is a bit of a pain-in-the-ass, and she certainly seems to have a martyr complex. But who is she, really? No one. I’d never heard of her until this post.
Also, attacking someone of color for the fact that he or she has problems with grammar and spelling is a bit tawdry, to say the least. Inner-city schools suck, for the most part, and they tend to turn out students who, on the whole, have more trouble with writing and critical thinking skills than do their white counterparts in suburban school disctricts. Ask anyone who teaches freshman comp whether or not they’ve noticed minority students having more problems in this area — that is, if he or she even has any minority students in his or her classroom.
I’m sorry; I love you guys, but I have a bit of a bad taste in my mouth on this.
Finally, Jane, Christy, TRex, et al: I’m not quite sure you guys understand the responsibility you now have. Many thousands of people traffic this site; you guys are among those who are now shaping public debate. With this comes a certain amount of power, power that needs to be used wisely, not for pissing-matches.
Firedoglake should not have risen to Liza’s bait; you guys should really be above all this.
p.s. Gilliard — whose writing I love (though he sometimes pisses me off) — makes frequent errors of grammar and puctuation as well, and I don’t hear anyone in the progessive movement complaining.
sorry *ilson,
i wasn’t ignoring what you said. i just type slow and hadn’t refreshed the comments until after i posted.
Well, this is the strangest sort of knee jerk response to a picture and a good example of judging a book by its cover.
The whole thing is patently ridiculous on its face and hello, we are talking about a meeting with William Jefferson Clinton! You know, a man beloved by lots of Americans of every ethnic origin. This is not about dubya who only just condescended to meet with the NAACP, abandoned minorities on the Gulf Coast and is the photo op preznit from hell and daily assails billions of Muslims. sheesh.
Let’s fiddle while Rome burns. No one should have any more meetings or discussions until we all can agree who should be invited.
How ridiculous to entertain the notion that a meeting organized by former President Clinton would be racist, sexist, or anything of that nature.
The Repugs have a rent-a-troll business which they use to say, “Hey, look over there” whenever their lunacy is called into question. FDL has pretty much thwarted this tactic and I give thanks to all of you who make that possible.
Kewalo @
218
I agree. After I retired, I taught computer classes at the local senior center, and each day I had between ten and twenty different people in the classroom. It didn’t take long for them to be able to communicate with friends and family, search the net and get onto discussion groups. And we live in a rural part of northwestern California, where you might think things were technically backward. Not so. And seniors have a lot more time to spend on the net than most people, so social networking is almost a way of life.
I miss all the fun when I go to bed early. Well, bed was fun, but I digress.
angie @ 379
yes, and it can go on and on into permutations about, tokenism and uncle tom, etc……..
angie (#379):
but that’s not good enough for some people, who, though they are people of color (or not), have issues with Big Dawg anyway. i think this figures very much into Liza’s motivation. which is OK (having issues with Clinton) as long as they recognize why they’re wound up and aren’t disingenuous about it…..
urizon #379 –
This bit:
Concern trolling.
You see anybody else suspending their entire lives to drive across the entire country to help a grassroots candidate get elected?
You see any other progressive bloggers hosting book salons of the size and caliber this site has?
Or promoting literacy on progressive themes to the extent that this site does?
I guess you also forgot that this site was instrumental in getting a copy of Kos’ and Armstrong’s “Crashing the Gates” hand delivered to every Democratic member of Congress.
This site is as serious as a heart-attack and more far more responsible to their constituents than either the President or the Pope. These are unpaid individuals who have done far more for the promotion of progressive and democratic values than 99.9% of their fellow Americans. Unless you’ve been paying these folks that blog at FDL, get off the high horse.
Does anyone feel like pointing out to this fool that since President Clinton has his offices in Harlem, and that he does business often with local merchants, that he could set up a meeting of black bloggers anytime he wants?
I thought this was a meeting specifically to build on the successes of making media aware of the inaccuracies of ABC’s propaganda effort — if black bloggers took the lead on that, and were omitted from the guest, then this maladroit, playa-hater provacateur would have cause to complain….
Rayne,
When Andrew Sullivan pulls the same shit on Josh Marshall, Marshall ignores him — and Sullivan goes away.
And concern-trolling? Please. I’m simply pointing out that FDL shouldn’t be wasting its time on crap like this. It serves no purpose.
And aren’t you sort of meta-concern-trolling by calling me a concern troll?
It’s not concern trolling when I have a legitimate, albeit minor, beef. Or are you suggesting we shouldn’t self-critique?
Just wondering.
Upsdate: And your argument that Jane “works her butt off” is really quite beside the point, isn’t it? We all work hard in our daily lives.
378 fahrender:
From what I can read, Liza called Jane an idiot for her blackface image. And given the firestorm that followed it, I think most of us can agree that it was an idiotic thing to do. That doesn’t make Jane an idiot–she strikes me as sharp as Liza–but I could see where it made Liza furious and she responded as such.
Also, I just want to add, if you dont know who Liza is (though again, if your active in the New York political blog world you know her, period), could it be that she doesn’t have time to blog full time because she’s sort of busy with: homeschooling her two young children; working part time; volunteering on political campaigns, and trying to keep two blogs updated. In other words, she doesn’t have the priviledge of oodles of free time to devote herself to boosting her traffic.
You know I think this blog does great work on the topic of race, however, with all that consciousness, I expect someone here would have pushed hard to make sure a person of color was at the meeting. And why shouldn’t that person have been Liza? Why wouldn’t we try and extend a hand and lift up a blogger who has less traffic, but still has important ideas to contribute. She lives in New York for fucks sake and again, while visitors to FDL may not know who she is, she is very well know in the City.
Urizon: Not sure if you’re joking or not, but being black and growing up in a city does not mean you got a crap education. I live in New York and my black son goes to a middle school that would run circles around just about any suburban school in the country. And from what I know of Liza, who I believe holds a masters, she had a pretty crack education.
JaneKnowles @
390
You’re right; I shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
I teach freshman comp, so I guess I’m a bit overly-sensitive on this issue.
And you’re quite right — there are many bad suburban schools, too.
I’m sure you would agree, however, that inner-city schools are underfunded — I just listened to a colleague who teaches in Albany talk about how her kids have to read the textbook in the classroom because there aren’t enough to go around — and, as a result, these schools don’t do a very good job preparing kids for the adult world — on the whole — which were, I believe, the words I used in my original post.
I think you would also agree that your son’s school, unfortunately, is really more of an exception rather than the rule.
all I have to say and I was trying to refrain… is that PICTURE> THAT PICTURE> is that a circus? and is it my imagination or a bad dream that MJ lIZA and Liz look alike……. more cuppa Christy more cuppa. LOL
Unizon: You teach freshman comp? Yikes! What did you do in your past life to deserve THAT?? ; )
I would say that schools in poor neighborhoods tend to suck, whether in city, suburban or rural neighborhoods. There are many middle and upper class neighborhoods in New York City, thus there are a bunch of great schools here. Of course there are also tons of totally crappy schools here, too.
On another note, I just wanted to point out when that cretin slime Josh Trevino attacked Jane for being illiterate, I went to HIS site to call him on his bullshit. So this isn’t about me being pro-Liza and anti-FDL and Jane. I just strongly believe from knowing Liza that this post is over the top and wrong-headed.
TREX,
A little harsh, dude.
You know … Liza did not factcheck before going off … that’s wrong. But notice she did not go after Aravosis, who I’ve found to be pretty off on racial issues in the past, or any of the white guy bloggers … instead she uses her ill-informed post to attack Jane when Jane had no say in the invite list. Fuss at Peter Daou for heavens sake who did set the list. It’s the choice go go after Jane that makes Trex’s response more than legit and honorable …
JaneKnowles @ 393
I guess I’m paying Karma for having done something stupid — like voting for Herbert Hoover.
New York City has a number of very good schools — and many that are truly terrible. But New York City is, in many ways, unique. The City has, to varying degrees, always prided itself on the high quality of its public school system, from the P.S. schools, all the way up to City College. But this isn’t true in other, smaller American cities. Try Camden, New Jersey, or Detroit, or Gary, Indiana, or, as I pointed out, Albany, just up the river a piece. These communities have little-to-no property tax-base — hence, the schools are drastically underfunded. “No Child Left Behind” should read “No Child’s Behind Left.”
And I didn’t think you were being reactionary, or anything like that.
I am going to bitch here a bit. Spelling does not come naturally to me. Sometimes I cannot get to the second letter in word. There is a kind of meanness in all of the harping about grammar and spelling. Lack of spelling does not mean lack of thought. Your snarkyness sometimes stings your own.
If you haven’t heard of Liza, that’s to your own discredit, dude. Not hers.
What an incredibly condescending, superior, self-satisfied, priggish motherfucking post.
But hey, she’s just one of the “Little Bloggers” — no harm in shredding one of THEM, huh.
Cowardice and ignorance — now where have I seen that combination before?
As usual, Maryscott manages to crystallize my own thoughts in fewer words.
Good lord, I don’t know how many times I have to say it, I did not know who was on the guest list, and didn’t know who would be in the meeting until I walked in. And nobody but nobody is going to do anything for Liza, she devotes way too many column inches to bitter attacks on other bloggers.
Unizon: I defer to your greater knowledge of the U.S. public education system. I just assumed that poor schools reflected the low incomes of the residents whose children attend the school.
Jane: Reread her post. She doesn’t attack you for who was at the meeting. At least that is not my interpretation.
Wait, TRex is a gay, white 60-ft dinosaur?
All this time I was thinking he was green on top and brown underneath. Who knew? I’m going to have to look at my unconscious biases about therapods.
The thing that struck me about that photo was how young and East Coast they all looked. If only it had occurred to me that it was an intentional slight to middle-aged Pacific Northwest bloggers like me!
No wonder I have such low traffic - I just attack the administration, not thoroughly blameless bloggers. Doh!
JaneKnowles @
403
Jane: Reread her post. She attacks me for not linking to African-American bloggers in Connecticut. I’ll ask you again: do you find truth in this statement? Because your defense of her seems to ignore this quite critical fact.
And it was YOU who said someone at this site should’ve lobbied for people of color to be there. How could we have done this if we didn’t know in advance who was coming?
JaneKnowles @ 401
The two are certainly tied together.
The vicious cycle works like this: Republicans cut funding for education, so local communities have to come up with new ways to generate revenue. And what do they do? They raise property taxes. This works fine in places like Scarsdale and Cherry Hill. But what about those communities where there is little home ownership, like Camden, a town that shares a border with the wealthy Cherry Hill? They get screwed; the money simply dries up.
And as to home ownership? What white-owned bank is going to finance homes in these areas? The insurance companies have red-lined the place, so you can’t buy mortgage insurance.
And on and on it goes.
How to change this? Get Chuck D, and Oprah and all the other black folks who have made billions, to start funding urban renewal projects, in which low-income families can work their way into home ownership. The black community should build its own banks and insurance companies, and mortgage brokerages — because there isn’t going to be any help from the white-controlled power centers.
The Dems are good at paying lip-service to the black community, without really doing anything, at least not lately. Of course the alternative, the crypto-fascist, racist fucks that make up the GOP, make William Jefferson Clinton look like William Moses Kunstler.
I don’t know whether or not you linked to black CT bloggers. If she makes that claim and it’s false then she’s wrong to say that. However, she still didn’t say that you were to blame for the lack of bloggers of color at the Clinton meeting.
Also, it was a mistake for me to say that you should have lobbied for people of color to be there. I confess to not reading every blog entry from start to finish and didn’t realize until after my post that you had no say in who could be there. So I apologize for that.
As to Liza attacking other bloggers, I know she’s been tough on Markos, but for what it’s worth, when he was here promoting his book, it was Liza who gave a toast to to him and Jerome at the meetup we NY Kossaks organized for them. (And I really do wish you would read her post on NARAL. I think you would be amazed. If I can ever find it, I’ll link to it.)
Still, flaming aside, one good thing we could say will come out of this is that the lack of bloggers of color won’t be an issue at the next meeting with Clinton.
immanentize @
321
{{{{{{SMACK}}}}}}
I’m a regular and sympathetic reader of firedoglake and other like-minded blogs, and it seems that Liza has a point in talking about the lack of inclusiveness in the blogosphere. Rather than get ridiculously defensive, deal with the underlying criticism. It would be good for the left all around to think about this problem.
I’d also point out that the inability of the Clinton people to find bloggers of African descent to come to a meeting IN HARLEM is remarkable.
JaneKnowles — CT Blogger. Look him up, and then look up any content where both FireDogLake and CT Blogger intersected.
Highly recommended that you do this before you go any further.
MSOC — This is a dispute that is not unlike that Kos and Jerome describe about “single-issue” organizations, and one that will easily be used to manipulate bloggers, particularly those sensitive to matters of race and gender. TRex has done nothing more than you might have for Kos had he been slandered. Be careful.
This thread proved me right, and bugged me while I tried to sleep, and bugged me when I woke up.
Maryscott is right. Surrogate knifings are cheap, no matter who they come from.
If you wanted to fight this one out, Jane, you should have posted your own response instead of hanging out in the comments pile-on. It’s not acceptable when Little Danny Gerstein does it, so it shouldn’t be acceptable here unless you really want to become the thing you hate.
And if people think that’s ‘concern trolling’, then they really need to get out of the high-school lunch-hall.
This all that needs to be said about this lame ass, divide and conquer, annoying distraction
Dear Liza:
Why has this blog lowered itself into a flame war?
oh, and you’re a bunch of lousy starfuckers - just don’t be co-opted by Mrs. Triangulator.
(The Dems lost both the Senate and the House under Clinton; his pet projects were NAFTA and GATT; he embraced corporate welfare AND we’re supposed to believe he was a PROGRESSIVE? LOL. Clinton was the best Republican President the country has had in the last 40 years maybe, but he was no progressive.)
pseudonymous — you do and did read the threads here, yes? Jane’s on the road, and an obviously torqued-off TRex was up next for Late Night FDL. This was no proxy.
Check your facts, people. That’s what started this debacle, people not checking facts.
me — NAFTA would have worked had the global marketplace been a level playing field. Had Gore been next up, this issue might have been addressed. I beg you to take a damned good look at the majority party holding Congress when NAFTA was enacted; one man is not to blame, any more than Bush by himself can be blamed for the Iraq debacle.
Oh, how I do love it when queens get catty. ROTFL
TRex, may I ask you, why is it that you seem to use Michae