Fitz!

OLBERMANN!

Raw Story headline: GOP Senators put holds on Bush court nominees… Soon…

Isn’t that approximately when the new Democratic Congress is sworn in? What a perfect time to start impeachment proceedings!

Jus’ sayin’

Fitz!!! Go get em!

Whaaa? NO DISMISSAL? DUUUUUDE!!

Cue the exploding wingnut heads.

-Not a bad thing really….

TheOtherWA—way to go!

From Froomkin,

ABC News last night broadcast more of its interview with Bush last week. Charles Gibson asked Bush about his experience on Sept. 11:

Bush: “There is a fog of war. It was hard to get information. Communication systems were not as good as they should have been. In other words, I couldn’t get information, I couldn’t find out where Laura was, I couldn’t find out, you know, where, uh, trying to get a hold of the vice president at times, I was constantly in touch with him, but they would have trouble getting him.

And then there were those headlights, they were so bright, bright white lights, I just sat there and I couldn’t move and then I then I heard them reading My Pet Goat and somehow I felt better.

When all the ashes clear and everything gets cleared away, which may take decades, I hope we remember Patrick Fitzgerald as the turning point in the nightmare of the past 5 years.

There had been critics of the administration, and there had been protests and disagreements and all kinds of arguments, but they all fell on deaf ears. Fitzgerald, with his extreme professionalism and dogged desire for the truth, was unimpeachable, unassailable by the Republicans. He was unswiftboatable, and as such, opened the flood gates. Now we’ve got Ned, we’ve got Olbermann, and even Matt Lauer seems to have looked into his pants and found his testicles.

Here’s to Fitz– the guy that started the revolution for real!

Christy,
Based on your experience, any estimate on the time between the start of jury selection and start of the trial?

I may have to take the day off and go down to DC for the kick off!

From prior thread

The Chain Gang can be found here:

http://www.backbonecampaign.org/chaingang.cfm

YW, Christy. I may be the only one still checking the various case websites just about every day. It’s a boring task since most of the time nothing happens, but I’m ok with that.

A commenter here yesterday (don’t rememeber who or what thread) said “Fitz fizzled.” It’s really hard waiting for events to unfold in this case, but it hasn’t even gone to trial yet. I reject the “fizzled” phrase. But the truth is, this case isn’t going to satisfy the urge for instant gratification.

You have no idea how much I wish cameras were allowed in federal court, but they aren’t, so we’ll have to rely on media reports and DC locals to pick up transcripts when they’re available for detailed analysis and enjoyment of Fitz skewering these rat bastards.

OT – Bob Iger on stage at Apple event.

OT

Fast National ratings for Monday, Sept. 11, 2006

The conclusion of ABC’s miniseries “The Path to 9/11″ led ABC to a ratings win Monday. Numbers for the night are approximate, as a presidential address marking the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks interrupted regular programming in much of the country.

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/…..?track=rss

I’m shocked! The good news is Part 2 was unfavorable to Bush so they say ; )

mmr @ 9

When all the ashes clear and everything gets cleared away, which may take decades, I hope we remember Patrick Fitzgerald as the turning point in the nightmare of the past 5 years.

There had been critics of the administration, and there had been protests and disagreements and all kinds of arguments, but they all fell on deaf ears. Fitzgerald, with his extreme professionalism and dogged desire for the truth, was unimpeachable, unassailable by the Republicans. He was unswiftboatable, and as such, opened the flood gates. Now we’ve got Ned, we’ve got Olbermann, and even Matt Lauer seems to have looked into his pants and found his testicles.

Here’s to Fitz– the guy that started the revolution for real!

Now I understand why they have been sniping at him for the last two weeks. Ever since the Armitage “revelation” (how many manths after emptywheel figured it out?)

They must have been pressing for a pardon (there were a couple of editorials along those lines) and are frustrated that Shrub is afraid topardon before the election.

Now wonder that have taken to attacking Pat again.

The other day the Chicago Tribune said “the guy who clubs baby seals has more defenders that Patrick Fitzgerald” (I’m quoting from memeory, so that may not be perfect).

Speaking of trials, I’m back in Justice Jackson’s summation in Nuremberg. Tell me who particularly comes to mind as you read these three passages . . .

The large and varied role of Goring was half militarist and half gangster. He stuck his pudgy finger in every pie. He used his SA musclemen to help bring the gang into power. In order to entrench that power he contrived to have the Reichstag burned, established the Gestapo, and created the concentration camps. He was equally adept at massacring opponents and at framing scandals to get rid of stubborn generals. He built up the Luftwaffe and hurled it at his defenseless neighbors. He was among the foremost in harrying Jews out of the land. By mobilizing the total economic resources of Germany he made possible the waging of the war which he had taken a large part in planning. He was, next to Hitler, the man who tied the activities of all the defendants together in a common effort.

It was the fatal weakness of the early Nazi band that it lacked technical competence. It could not from among its own ranks make up a government capable of carrying out all the projects necessary to realize its aims. Therein lies the special crime and betrayal of men like Schacht and Von Neurath, Speer and Von Papen, Raeder and Donitz, Keitel and Jodl. It is doubtful whether the Nazi master plan could have succeeded without their specialized intelligence which they so willingly put at its command. They did so with knowledge of its announced aims and methods, and continued their services after practice had confirmed the direction in which they were tending. Their superiority to the average run of Nazi mediocrity is not their excuse. It is their condemnation.

The dominant fact which stands out from all the thousands of pages of the record of this Trial is that the central crime of the whole group of Nazi crimes, the attack on the peace of the world, was clearly and deliberately planned. The beginning of these wars of aggression was not an unprepared and spontaneous springing to arms by a population excited by some current indignation. A week before the invasion of Poland Hitler told his military commanders:

“I shall give a propagandist cause for starting war, never mind whether it be plausible or not. The victor shall not be asked later on whether we told the truth or not. In starting and making a war, it is not the right that matters, but victory.”

[emphasis mine]

Thus, the follow-up wars were planned before the first was launched. These were the most carefully plotted wars in all history. Scarcely a step in their terrifying succession and progress failed to move according to the master blueprint or the subsidiary schedules and timetables until long after the crimes of aggression were consummated.

Some realms pooh-pooh the excellence of German engineering. I guess we should be a little thankful for that . . .

one thing I guess I have to give Bush credit for — so far Sunni/Shia sectarian violence hasn’t broken out on the NearEastside of Indianapolis. I think I live in a Sunni neighborhood but I’m not really sure about that …

From Froomkin and the same wonderful ABC interview,

Bush: Well, you know I tried to get home and the Secret Service said, ‘You’re not going home. Matter of fact, you’re heading to Omaha, Neb., where we will put you in a bunker.’ . . . And it frustrated me because, you know, on the other hand I was able to stay in touch with people, you know. I had enough information to know what was going on. I was making command decisions. . . .

Gibson: [B]ut is there an argument between the president of the United States and the Secret Service — ‘I want to go home.’ ‘No you’re not, Mr. President’?

Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Gibson: And . . . and the Secret Service wins those arguments?

Bush: Oh well, you know, it was not just the Secret Service, the vice president suggested, others suggested, that it’s probably best to let things cool down for a while, till we get enough information to understand.

See, I was the Commander in Chief and I had the information and I wanted to do some decidering but Uncle Dick, he said, you don’t have the information and he told me to go out and play for awhile, and I did.

1,261 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND …

Citizen Harden Smith:

Anybody heard from Shooter Cheney about how the world looks from under the bus? And, what do you hear from your “little birdies” about Fitz and any continuing investigation…is he holdin’ for the results of the election?

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET ‘EM INTO YER YARD!!!

Jury selection will probably take weeks because of all the pre-trial publicity. I assume Irving has hired a jury consultant, there may even be motion practice over the questions and format of the jury questionaire.

I had a “big case” back in the day, and we spent weeks wrangling over the jury questionaire and more weeks doing the jury inteviews.

If they expect the trial to go more than a month, they may empanel more than the usual 12 petit jurors 2 alterantes.

I would want at least 6 alterantes if I were Wlaton.

I think I live in a Sunni neighborhood but I’m not really sure about that . . .

*ilson lives on the Sunni side of the street?

Cozumel @ 14

OT

Fast National ratings for Monday, Sept. 11, 2006

The conclusion of ABC’s miniseries “The Path to 9/11″ led ABC to a ratings win Monday. Numbers for the night are approximate, as a presidential address marking the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks interrupted regular programming in much of the country.

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/…..?track=rss

I’m shocked! The good news is Part 2 was unfavorable to Bush so they say ; )

The thing about these numbers is they only include broadcast. No mention of cable channels, and wasn’t there Monday night football on cable? They may be accurate, but it’s an incomplete comparison. So I’m not sure what it means.

-ck- @ 20

I think I live in a Sunni neighborhood but I’m not really sure about that . . .

*ilson lives on the Sunni side of the street?

punaise would be proud… or is it 3sivund?

:-)

OfT I thought this was a great comment from prior thread, so I recommented it here.

rwcole says
September 12th, 2006 at 10:42 am*

It’s a mistake for dems in most races to advocate anything specific about Iraq. The way to win is “We need a fresh approach” “We need congressional hearings” “We need to have fresh eyes” “We need to hear from our retired military who can speak openly”, etc.

Dems can take advantage of the Clusterfucker’s mess while staying wise and restrained. Best- it will drive the goopers fuckin crazy.

I’m fully in favor of an immediate and full pullout from the ME, but I think rw’s political strategy going into midterms makes the most sense for a lot of Dems. I would also add to it, consulting with our Allies inside and outside the ME.

None of our forces in the ME meet the requirements of the Powell Doctrine for the use of military force.

OT– Tony Snow just held up a wristband he was given yesterday by some family survivor of flight 93 and is totally dramatizing the preznit’s caring and concern– this in response to an upset reporter who spoke of the preznit being arrogant.

Feingold calls on Bush to stop using the terms “Islamic Facists.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14800287/

scarecrow @ 25

Feingold calls on Bush to stop using the terms “Islamic Facists.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14800287/

YEAH!

nice catch scarecrow.

looseheadprop @ 11

I may have to take the day off and go down to DC for the kick off!

From prior thread

The Chain Gang can be found here:

http://www.backbonecampaign.org/chaingang.cfm

lhp, I got an error on that link, and by the time you see this you have probably seen it several times over. Thanks for the link, by the way.

Belay that. I tried two or three times and finally got it. Must be a lot of people trying to access that information :)

looseheadprop @ 20

Jury selection will probably take weeks because of all the pre-trial publicity. I assume Irving has hired a jury consultant, there may even be motion practice over the questions and format of the jury questionaire.

I had a “big case” back in the day, and we spent weeks wrangling over the jury questionaire and more weeks doing the jury inteviews.

If they expect the trial to go more than a month, they may empanel more than the usual 12 petit jurors 2 alterantes.

I would want at least 6 alterantes if I were Wlaton.

From the wording of Walton’s order, I think that he wants all the wrangling over the jury questionaire done by January 16, 2007, and that that is the day that the court’s officers should have the potential jurors ready to be questioned. In other words, it’s as much an order to the folks who do the jury summoning, isn’t it?

(Never been on the sending side of those . . . just the receiving end.)

Fitz should call David Broder before the grand jury — and then indict him for perjury.

1,261 dayz and the killin goez on and on and …

John Casper:

I also think rwcole is correct as far as he goes but the Dems must be forceful in stating that it is the Chimpenfeurer’s responsibility to come up with the solution to the problem or he must step down…THAT’s accountability and that’s the way Democrats get empeachment into the electoral discussion.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, I’M AFRAID WE’RE RUNNIN’ OUTTA CLEAR SHOTS!!!

Newly EPU’d –

Creeping Truth @ 167

looseheadprop @ 128

If you own stock in the MouseHouse or in American Airlines, Shareholders suits could be an option –

Amer. Airl. Shareholders would first press investor relations to sue ABC for damaging their brand. If AA won’t sue, then you bring a shareholder’s action for mandamus to compellthem to sue.

Disney, you just sue as a shareholder.

You would sue management and any employee who has culbability. It’s called shareholder’s derivative suit. The shareholder’s stand in the shoes of management and sue on behalf of the company.

Flash!!

There’s a post up on HuffPo attaching an E&P story about AA thinking lawsuit. Also mentioned there: a follow-up lawyer’s letter from Bruce Lindsey saying the edits to Part I didn’t cut the mustard.

I’d be shocked if ABC doesn’t end its horror by issuing a high-profile retraction. Defamation lawyers nationwide must be saying they’ll eat their tassles if no draft complaint is shot across ABC’s bow, if not filed in court.

What we’re seeing is confirmation of Matt Stoller’s theory of a corporate screw-up, further supported by Max Blumenthal in The Nation.

We often suspect perfect conspiracies behind outrages like PT9/11, forgetting the incompetence factor. But what Mayberry Machiavellian would have gotten it wrong about American Airlines?

I offer, in half-jest, the guess that the advance libel-vetting for this project was contracted out to John Yoo, whose only contact with defamation law is through a fawning familiarity with the Alien and Sedition Act, which he thinks Bush can make the law of the land by fiat pursuant to his Commander-in-Chief power.

Not to mention clean shorts.

hmmm… i’ve been seeing strange anniversaries lately… jan 16, 2007… that’s the one year aniversary of al gore’s speech at the american constitution society on “Executive Powers”.

here’s what al gore had to say that day about “our” fitz:

We’ve had a fresh demonstration of how an independent investigation by a special council with integrity can rebuild confidence in our system of justice.

Patrick Fitzgerald has, by all accounts, has shown neither fear nor favor in pursuing allegations that the executive branch has violated other laws.

for anyone who hasn’t yet listened or read this speech – don’t delay any longer… a dose of truth and hope.

Lindy H

it worked when I clicke on it in your quote.

just put “backbone campaign” in your browser search feature.

Go look at it, it’s a hoot.

RUN AL RUN!!!!!

…IMPEACHMENT (dammit)

mmr @
9

When all the ashes clear and everything gets cleared away, which may take decades, I hope we remember Patrick Fitzgerald as the turning point in the nightmare of the past 5 years.

There had been critics of the administration, and there had been protests and disagreements and all kinds of arguments, but they all fell on deaf ears. Fitzgerald, with his extreme professionalism and dogged desire for the truth, was unimpeachable, unassailable by the Republicans. He was unswiftboatable, and as such, opened the flood gates. Now we’ve got Ned, we’ve got Olbermann, and even Matt Lauer seems to have looked into his pants and found his testicles.

Here’s to Fitz– the guy that started the revolution for real!

And here’s to James Comey, the guy that told Ashcroft he had to recuse himself and selected Fitzgerald.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 38

…IMPEACHMENT (dammit)

CHIMPEACH!

:-)

scarecrow @ 26

Feingold calls on Bush to stop using the terms “Islamic Facists.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14800287/

feingold comes through again!

i love this bit:

At a news conference, Townsend said, “What the President was trying to capture was this idea of using violence to achieve ideological ends – and that’s wrong.”

does this mean that bush is going to stop killing people in order to ’spread democracy”? i can dream, can’t i?

IMPERCH!

lhp @15, I went looking for that ChiTrib article you referenced. A New Light on CIA leak scandal.

It’s good.

The revelation [of Armitage as one of Novak’s sources], it [WaPo] said, shows that “one of the most sensational charges leveled against the Bush White House–that it orchestrated the leak of Ms. Plame’s identity to ruin her career and thus punish Mr. Wilson–is untrue.”

But the logic here is the equivalent of saying that because I am chewing gum, I cannot possibly be walking. All the evidence indicates there were two separate courses of action that exposed Plame’s identity–one attributable to Armitage and one to people in the White House. That Armitage was guilty of carelessness does not mean Libby is innocent of malice.

And this:

It will take a trial to establish Libby’s criminal guilt or innocence. But the bulk of the evidence indicates that people high up in the White House did seek to punish Wilson by unmasking his wife, and that the vice president’s chief of staff did his best to conceal this effort from the special prosecutor.

For that evidence, we should thank the much-maligned Fitzgerald, whose sole sin is doing his job conscientiously. But the only people who are grateful are those who put truth and accountability above their own narrow interests. And in Washington, that may be a party of one.

At FDL, there are lots of us who appreciate what Fitz is doing.

Yay! Someone in the media gets it! Woohoo!

TheOtherWA @ 21

Cozumel @ 14

OT

Fast National ratings for Monday, Sept. 11, 2006

The conclusion of ABC’s miniseries “The Path to 9/11″ led ABC to a ratings win Monday. Numbers for the night are approximate, as a presidential address marking the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks interrupted regular programming in much of the country.

I’m shocked! The good news is Part 2 was unfavorable to Bush so they say ; )

The thing about these numbers is they only include broadcast. No mention of cable channels, and wasn’t there Monday night football on cable? They may be accurate, but it’s an incomplete comparison. So I’m not sure what it means.

Very true. Those numbers are extremly low

Peterr @ 30

looseheadprop @ 20

Jury selection will probably take weeks because of all the pre-trial publicity. I assume Irving has hired a jury consultant, there may even be motion practice over the questions and format of the jury questionaire.

I had a “big case” back in the day, and we spent weeks wrangling over the jury questionaire and more weeks doing the jury inteviews.

If they expect the trial to go more than a month, they may empanel more than the usual 12 petit jurors 2 alterantes.

I would want at least 6 alterantes if I were Wlaton.

From the wording of Walton’s order, I think that he wants all the wrangling over the jury questionaire done by January 16, 2007, and that that is the day that the court’s officers should have the potential jurors ready to be questioned. In other words, it’s as much an order to the folks who do the jury summoning, isn’t it?

(Never been on the sending side of those . . . just the receiving end.)

It depends, there would have been a conference before the order was issued. The lawyers have more deatiled info from that. If, for example Wlaton said, I’m going to be away at a conference until Jan 15, so let’s start jury selection on the 16th, the wringling could just be getting started the.

If Wlaton said, “Make it work people” cause we start on Jan 16th rain or shine, then he expect all the motions and the crybabying to be over by then.

Can you tell I’m a “project runway” fan?

I’m still waiting for the mobilization call, and the call-up of not-ready-any-more reserves unit I’m in, given the fact that the safety of America and the survival of civilization depends on winning the battle for Baghdad. When will the next round of editorials pounce on that one?

While we’re waiting for general mobilization, which should come at any minute now, Glenn Greenwald does a number on the right wingers who have been consistently wrong, still giving us foreign policy advice, and this time in the WaPo op-ed page. My favorite (of several) paragraph:

But as always with Iraq and terrorism debates, being endlessly wrong is a sign of profound seriousness, and cheering on wars — no matter how misguided and misinformed the cheering is — renders one a serious foreign policy expert who recognizes the serious threats we face in these very serious times. That’s why, when The Washington Post wants to find someone to counsel us on its Op-Ed page as to what to do in Iraq, it turns to two of the Wrongest People in America.

He’s referring to Rich Lowrey and Bill Kristol, who in an op-ed in said we need to send more troops to save Baghdad.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..html#links

If you haven’t F5′d lately, please do, then check out Justice Jackson at 16 ^ (shades of der Chimpenfuhrer indeed).

At the end of the judges order is this sentence:

ORDERED, as set forth in the Court’s February 3, 2006 scheduling order, that proposed voir dire questions and jury instructions shall be submitted to the Court by November 13, 2006.

All the arguing about juror questions will be settled before Jan. 16th. Sounds like the judge isn’t wasting time. I like that. :)

John Casper @ 24

I’m fully in favor of an immediate and full pullout from the ME, but I think rw’s political strategy going into midterms makes the most sense for a lot of Dems. I would also add to it, consulting with our Allies inside and outside the ME.

None of our forces in the ME meet the requirements of the Powell Doctrine for the use of military force.

I agree. The Bushies have been so stubborn and inflexible, it’s clear the only way to get change is to throw the GOP out. The situation will be different by January, so there’s no point in getting into specifics. They have to defend their “strategy”; once we have some people in power, then they can ask us to defend ours.

And the answer to wingers’ constant carping of “you complain but you don’t propose any ideas” is “why do you keep demanding we produce ideas? Don’t you have any of your own? And by the way, ’stay the course’ is a slogan, not a strategy.”

With the recent disclosures concerning Valerie Wilson’s reason d’etre at the CIA (Iran), does anyone else think they were going for a twofer, maybe…Both Wilsons?

TheOtherWA @ 42

lhp @15, I went looking for that ChiTrib article you referenced. A New Light on CIA leak scandal.

It’s good.

The revelation [of Armitage as one of Novak’s sources], it [WaPo] said, shows that “one of the most sensational charges leveled against the Bush White House–that it orchestrated the leak of Ms. Plame’s identity to ruin her career and thus punish Mr. Wilson–is untrue.”

But the logic here is the equivalent of saying that because I am chewing gum, I cannot possibly be walking. All the evidence indicates there were two separate courses of action that exposed Plame’s identity–one attributable to Armitage and one to people in the White House. That Armitage was guilty of carelessness does not mean Libby is innocent of malice.

And this:

It will take a trial to establish Libby’s criminal guilt or innocence. But the bulk of the evidence indicates that people high up in the White House did seek to punish Wilson by unmasking his wife, and that the vice president’s chief of staff did his best to conceal this effort from the special prosecutor.

For that evidence, we should thank the much-maligned Fitzgerald, whose sole sin is doing his job conscientiously. But the only people who are grateful are those who put truth and accountability above their own narrow interests. And in Washington, that may be a party of one.

At FDL, there are lots of us who appreciate what Fitz is doing.

Yay! Someone in the media gets it! Woohoo!

You guys amaze me. This is probably THE fastest research capability I have ever seen.

After Election Day, when we have time to catch our breath, we should maybe discuss virtual “think tank” possibilities.

For now, we gotta stay focused on Election Day.

Not for nuthin’, I think it would be very nice if Fitz got some good thoughts beamed his way. Anybody who’s good at prayer or similar feats, maybe take aminute and say a little prayer (or non religious equivelant) for the big man in the rumpled suit.

scarecrow @ 46

I’m still waiting for the mobilization call, and the call-up of not-ready-any-more reserves unit I’m in, given the fact that the safety of America and the survival of civilization depends on winning the battle for Baghdad. When will the next round of editorials pounce on that one?

Yeah! If this is really the war for the survival of our country why should we keep you in power when you’re screwing it up so badly?

Mommybrain @ 48

With the recent disclosures concerning Valerie Wilson’s reason d’etre at the CIA (Iran), does anyone else think they were going for a twofer, maybe…Both Wilsons?

Mommybrain–exactly right.

TheOtherWA @ 46

At the end of the judges order is this sentence:

ORDERED, as set forth in the Court’s February 3, 2006 scheduling order, that proposed voir dire questions and jury instructions shall be submitted to the Court by November 13, 2006.

Could be. If the two sides can’t negotiate a joint set by 11/13. They will each submit their pown propsoed set and then the motions begin.

I suspect you are right though, that Wlaton will keep them on a short briefing schedule, so he can actually swear in the first panel of venirmen on 1/16

All the arguing about juror questions will be settled before Jan. 16th. Sounds like the judge isn’t wasting time. I like that. :)

I’m sorry, but did that “executive order” giving him presidential powers to classify and declasify ever turn up?

I don’t think so, somebody please show it to me

Alison @ 51

Mommybrain @ 48

With the recent disclosures concerning Valerie Wilson’s reason d’etre at the CIA (Iran), does anyone else think they were going for a twofer, maybe…Both Wilsons?

Mommybrain–exactly right.

Just might be

I’m tight for time at work, but I think I’ve moved from pissy depression to angry – the heart of angry, the reason you use it in the definition of all those fancier and fluffier terms.

I knew Graham would cave and McCain and Warner. As much as I get furious with the Dems, when was the last time a Republican in Congress showed spine and integrity? Sure they can maul in gangs and wolfpack, but spine?

Graham has seen it all coming forever – you can see that in every set of any questioning where he has participated. JAG has not one — think about that, not ONE —Republican willing to take a stand.

The salt will go well with all the pork.

It could not from among its own ranks make up a government capable of carrying out all the projects necessary to realize its aims. Therein lies the special crime and betrayal of men like Schacht and Von Neurath, Speer and Von Papen, Raeder and Donitz, Keitel and Jodl. It is doubtful whether the Nazi master plan could have succeeded without their specialized intelligence which they so willingly put at its command. They did so with knowledge of its announced aims and methods, and continued their services after practice had confirmed the direction in which they were tending. Their superiority to the average run of Nazi mediocrity is not their excuse. It is their condemnation.

That pretty much sums it up – not just for Graham, or a Warner or a Lugar who should know better; but for the whole of the crew in DOJ who knew.

It’s not about ability to interrogate – it’s about never having to face any consequences for committing crimes against innocent people. It’s not about giving “rights” to KSM; it’s about the shameful descent of ending up a state sponsor of torture and the beggardom of a country reduced to slithering through the court system, claiming “state secrets” for cases like el-Masri.
*******

Trying to breath deeply and get briefly back on topic before real work. When does the GJ that Fitzgerald has been using expire? Oct/Nov? I don’t object to timing much, bc he’s on his own track – but if he is going to formally wrap the investigation, it would be much better to do it now, than to have that hit right before the elections – the announcement that the Spec Pros isn’t proceeding with anything further in front of the GJ.

me to me @ 53

I’m sorry, but did that “executive order” giving him presidential powers to classify and declasify ever turn up?

I don’t think so, somebody please show it to me

The one to Cheney? I think Mary (a/k/a Maryforever, a/k/a Mary4) had it a long time ago.

OT but worth its weight in gold for John Laesch:

http://rawstory.com/showoutart…..dont-sing/

Mary @ 55

I’m tight for time at work, but I think I’ve moved from pissy depression to angry – the heart of angry, the reason you use it in the definition of all those fancier and fluffier terms.

I knew Graham would cave and McCain and Warner. As much as I get furious with the Dems, when was the last time a Republican in Congress showed spine and integrity? Sure they can maul in gangs and wolfpack, but spine?

Graham has seen it all coming forever – you can see that in every set of any questioning where he has participated. JAG has not one — think about that, not ONE —Republican willing to take a stand.

The salt will go well with all the pork.

It could not from among its own ranks make up a government capable of carrying out all the projects necessary to realize its aims. Therein lies the special crime and betrayal of men like Schacht and Von Neurath, Speer and Von Papen, Raeder and Donitz, Keitel and Jodl. It is doubtful whether the Nazi master plan could have succeeded without their specialized intelligence which they so willingly put at its command. They did so with knowledge of its announced aims and methods, and continued their services after practice had confirmed the direction in which they were tending. Their superiority to the average run of Nazi mediocrity is not their excuse. It is their condemnation.

That pretty much sums it up – not just for Graham, or a Warner or a Lugar who should know better; but for the whole of the crew in DOJ who knew.

It’s not about ability to interrogate – it’s about never having to face any consequences for committing crimes against innocent people. It’s not about giving “rights” to KSM; it’s about the shameful descent of ending up a state sponsor of torture and the beggardom of a country reduced to slithering through the court system, claiming “state secrets” for cases like el-Masri.
*******

Trying to breath deeply and get briefly back on topic before real work. When does the GJ that Fitzgerald has been using expire? Oct/Nov? I don’t object to timing much, bc he’s on his own track – but if he is going to formally wrap the investigation, it would be much better to do it now, than to have that hit right before the elections – the announcement that the Spec Pros isn’t proceeding with anything further in front of the GJ.

Mary

I could not agree with you more. Nonetheless, they may have made a mistake in this version and it may not protect them the way they think it will. Obviously, I don’t want to point it out and help them to correct it, but, they may only think this will let them get away with it.

Not such slick lawyering going on there.

Nonetheless, this bill should never be allowed to pass, because of the unforgivable message it sends.

This is the legislative equivlent of the “unforgivable curses” in Harry Potter.

I am so confused. First the Syrians thwart a terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Syria, in which they lose one of their own soldiers defending US personnel, and now the Iranians offer to help stabilize conditions in Iraq.

Does this mean that the enemy (Bush) of our new friends (Syria and Iran) is our enemy? Someone give me a scorecard. Which ones are we supposed to appease?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..iraq_dc_83

scarecrow @ 61

I am so confused. First the Syrians thwart a terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Syria, in which they lose one of their own soldiers defending US personnel, and now the Iranians offer to help stabilize conditions in Iraq.

Does this mean that the enemy (Bush) of our new friends (Syria and Iran) is our enemy? Someone give me a scorecard. Which ones are we supposed to appease?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..iraq_dc_83

(head-petal spinning so fast, flowah ends up out cold on the flo’)

*ilson46201 @ 17

one thing I guess I have to give Bush credit for — so far Sunni/Shia sectarian violence hasn’t broken out on the NearEastside of Indianapolis. I think I live in a Sunni neighborhood but I’m not really sure about that …

No breakouts in Iowa City either. I credit the Iowa National Guard, which has a maintenance depot strategically located in the south-central part of town.

scarecrow @ 61

I am so confused. First the Syrians thwart a terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Syria, in which they lose one of their own soldiers defending US personnel, and now the Iranians offer to help stabilize conditions in Iraq.

Does this mean that the enemy (Bush) of our new friends (Syria and Iran) is our enemy? Someone give me a scorecard. Which ones are we supposed to appease?

There’s an election coming up. No matter what happens, appease the Republicans.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

lotus @ 62

scarecrow @ 61

I am so confused. First the Syrians thwart a terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Syria, in which they lose one of their own soldiers defending US personnel, and now the Iranians offer to help stabilize conditions in Iraq.

Does this mean that the enemy (Bush) of our new friends (Syria and Iran) is our enemy? Someone give me a scorecard. Which ones are we supposed to appease?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..iraq_dc_83

(head-petal spinning so fast, flowah ends up out cold on the flo’)

Mercy! Somebody fetch us a fan. Lotus has done fainted dead away!

In other administration-related legal news, Abu Gonzalez wants to bring the masterminds of the 9/11 Commission to justice.

(No, that’s not a typo. Hell of a Freudian slip, though.)

That dang angie, hoggin’ the smelling salts.

I EPU’d myself – go figure.

Creeping Truth – The most a shareholder could do, in either situation, is bring a derivative suit, if, after making demand of the Company, the company will not sue. It is not an easy thing to do b/c a court can dismiss the derivative suit if they believe it is frivolous or not in the best interest of the company AND b/c if the derivative shareholder’s lose, they can be personally held liable for attorneys’ fees and damages.

With respect to AA, it would be for defamation – harm to business reputation.

With respect to Disney it would be most likely for wasting of corporate assets (perhaps even fraud depending on where the money trail leads) – i.e. $43 million was spent for the personal benefit of directors/officers/Chimpy, etc. and or employees, NOT the corporations benefit.

Mandamus doesn’t apply to shareholders seeking to enforce what the believe are a company’s rights. You can read up on mandamus here:

Wikipedia – Mandamus

PS – The AA agents portrayed in the film, and any other person portrayed in the film, can personally sue for defamation.

Mommybrain @ 50

With the recent disclosures concerning Valerie Wilson’s reason d’etre at the CIA (Iran), does anyone else think they were going for a twofer, maybe…Both Wilsons?

I don’t doubt it for a second.

scarecrow @ 59

I am so confused. First the Syrians thwart a terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Syria, in which they lose one of their own soldiers defending US personnel, and now the Iranians offer to help stabilize conditions in Iraq.

Does this mean that the enemy (Bush) of our new friends (Syria and Iran) is our enemy? Someone give me a scorecard. Which ones are we supposed to appease?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..iraq_dc_83

Or maybe it just means that Syria and Iran are beahving more soberly, maurely and repsonsibly these days than the US.

Or maybe it means that the Bushco has been wrong in branding these countries as evil.(did

Or maybe it’s just a coincidence

Mommybrain 48 — I’ve thought that since 2003 or so, whenever it was that I first found out that Plame worked for a section on WMD that included Turkey. That was tooooo close for scattershot.

Iran

Don’t know that much about Iran- except that they either want nukes- or they want people to think that they want nukes in order to get something else. As much as I hate Clusterfuck’s guts- it’s not a good idea for Iran to get nukes- even if they smile and say please.

Can I just say how that Hentic illustration down below continues to “bother” me in a real good way ? Sorry; gotta look again.

Am I the only one with a slow loading FDL today? Refresh and preview buttons are also missing.

Just can’t get the power of Lauers(sp?) Oval interview out of my head. Wow, those questions in the Oval office! What body language! Matt handling his marker in a way that kept Georgie Poo from grabbing him or worse. I hope journalism profs use that in class for many years.

The Nefarious Leslie @ 66

In other administration-related legal news, Abu Gonzalez wants to bring the masterminds of the 9/11 Commission to justice.

(No, that’s not a typo. Hell of a Freudian slip, though.)

Hannity’s question leading up to Gonzalez’ answer is also interesting:

Hannity: Why would we use the Geneva Conventions as our standard, number one, and why would we confer rights to enemy combatants, considering we’ve never done that before?

Guess the Nuremberg trials don’t count, cause the defendants in that case were not “enemy” or “combatants.” Just friendly persuaders, I guess.

there is only one nuclear-armed Middle East power — Israel

Wilson- yep and that’s one too many.

Scarecrow @ 61:

I would guess that the Syrians are beginning to get really worried about the budding Islamist movements in the state. My understanding is that the Syrian government is largely secular, with ties to Iran because they need friends in the region. They also support Hezbollah (through the Shebaa Farms border dispute, which has only been shown to have been Lebanese on one map, which was a forgery [wikipedia])

However, they do this to keep Israel occupied, and they have no desire to have that kind of relgious fundamentalism in their own country, as that would topple the current regime [nytimes].

So, to label the Syrian regime terrorist is a bit simplistic, I think. Instead, they are attempting to maintian power by supporting popular causes, but when the rubber hits the road in their own land, they seem to be very much in support of their own secular regime. All of that may be changing, however, as the popular movements in the region seem to go away from pan-arabism to pan-Islamism [nytimes].

As for Iran coming to the aid of Iraq, I’d bet dollars to donuts it’s really to the aid of the Shi’ite population at the expense of the Kurds and the Sunni. Even taken on the face of what the article says, they do mention links to the Shia groups in Iran, so it may be very difficult for the Iranian government to stop those kinds of activities, even if they wanted to. Given Ahmadinejad’s desire to return Iran to a pre-Industrial educational system [nytimes], I’m not sure I’d believe that they’re idea of reform and peace has anything to do with our idea of reform and peace.

But this is just stuff I’ve pieced together from the news– a far cry from wondering why Bush was wrong with his slack-jawed full-mouthed idiotic statement about irony and Hezbollah.

mmr @
9

When all the ashes clear and everything gets cleared away, which may take decades, I hope we remember Patrick Fitzgerald as the turning point in the nightmare of the past 5 years.

There had been critics of the administration, and there had been protests and disagreements and all kinds of arguments, but they all fell on deaf ears. Fitzgerald, with his extreme professionalism and dogged desire for the truth, was unimpeachable, unassailable by the Republicans. He was unswiftboatable, and as such, opened the flood gates. Now we’ve got Ned, we’ve got Olbermann, and even Matt Lauer seems to have looked into his pants and found his testicles.

Here’s to Fitz– the guy that started the revolution for real!

and to Jane and Christy, by God! Drinks all around. Sour mash for everybody (except TRex, of course).

The Hill: Grassley & Sessions hold up Keisler nomination

“But a spokesman for Sessions has denied his boss’s involvement.”

…..and to Joe and Valery Wilson.

scarecrow 61 — find a second validating source OUTSIDE THE US and NOT Parisa Hefezi.

Hefezi covers Iran almost exclusively for Reuters, means there’s the chance that Hefezi is a stovepipe.

Just scanned Turkish and Lebanese papers in Newseum.org, cannot find any mention of Iran-Iraq discussion. Discussion of Pro-Kurd group and PKK negotions, but not Iran-Iraq.

Suspect, IMO.

*ilson — ummm, how do you say “nuclear” in Pakistani?

Pakistan is certainly one of the most dangerous nations on earth- besides the US with a Clusterfuck in charge- it’s not in the middle east however.

windje @ 39, fahrender @ 78:

True, true! It does take a support network, and he didn’t go it alone.

Does TRex at least get to drink some OJ?

Rayne @ 81

*ilson — ummm, how do you say “nuclear” in Pakistani?

I don’t know Urdu but I do know that Pakistan is not usually considered a part of the Middle East — but close only counts in horseshoes, grenades and atom bombs …

EvilDrPuma @ 68

Mommybrain @ 50

With the recent disclosures concerning Valerie Wilson’s reason d’etre at the CIA (Iran), does anyone else think they were going for a twofer, maybe…Both Wilsons?

I don’t doubt it for a second.

With the revelations from David Corn’s book, I have come to believe that the main target was Valerie; Joe’s editorial was the tool they found at hand to destroy her career in retribution for the CIA not ginning-up the evidence for Iraqi WMD.

rwcole @ 71

Iran

Don’t know that much about Iran- except that they either want nukes- or they want people to think that they want nukes in order to get something else. As much as I hate Clusterfuck’s guts- it’s not a good idea for Iran to get nukes- even if they smile and say please.

Stanford PhD had a nice op-ed in Newsweek a few weeks ago, How To Make Tehran Blink

By Scott D. Sagan, PhD

Given Tehran’s defiant response to the European and American effort to constrain its nuclear program, it is time for bolder diplomacy out of Washington. U.S. President George W. Bush should take a page from the playbook of Ronald Reagan, who negotiated with an evil Soviet regime–competing in the war of ideas, but addressing the enemy’s security concerns through arms-control agreements.

Iran’s intransigence is both deeply unfortunate and perfectly predictable. It is unfortunate because Tehran’s refusal to suspend its uranium-enrichment operations immediately–as demanded in July by the U.N. Security Council in a legally binding resolution–suggests that Iran is moving more quickly than expected toward a nuclear-weapons capability. Tehran has now turned the nuclear crisis into a test of the whole U.N. Security Council system. And Russia and China’s current position, threatening to veto any biting sanctions against Iran, suggests that the Security Council may well fail this crucial test.

Tehran’s response is predictable, however, because the offer on the table contains both inadequate economic carrots and barely credible threats of sanctions and military force. The carrots appeared impressive at first glance–in return for a suspension of enrichment we reportedly promised to provide light-water nuclear reactors and to help Iran with civil aviation and telecommunications technology. But we did not offer the one incentive that might possibly work, security guarantees that could reduce Iran’s desire for nuclear weapons…..

All bold is mine.

As usual, Bush is just trying to provoke someone. The entire rest of the world know this is about the US’ dependence on inexpensive ME crude. As long as the Shrub can convince the US TM, that it’s about us being the victim, he will continue.

Somewhat OT, but cheering:
In his 9/11 anniversary address to the nation, President Bush:
Took pains to be non-partisan – 30% – 11279 votes
Tried to use day of mourning for political gain – 70% – 26044 votes
Total: 37323 votes

That speech went over really well, didn’t it, Georgie?

Weird comment-jumping going on these days. I saw rwc’s “84″ before I hit Submit, but now I’m 84 and he’s 85. And at least two answers have preceded their questions yesterday and today. Hmm.

When all the ashes clear and everything gets cleared away, which may take decades, I hope we remember Patrick Fitzgerald as the turning point in the nightmare of the past 5 years.

not unless the rest of us do our jobs

If Tehran were to offer to give up it’s nuke program in return for Israel agreeing to destroy the nuke arsenal that it won’t admit it has- it would complicate the negotiations a great deal.

My bet is we will never see a trial. Bush will pardon Libby. Bush has nothing to lose. As John Dean points out, even if he’s impeached by the house, there wouldn’t be the necessary votes in the senate.

Bush need only note that potential revelations in the trial would jeopardize national security and that fully justifies Libby’s pardon. Besides anything short of a full pardon could lead to impeachment AND conviction in the senate. There’s no way he would let that happen.

OfT
Anyone have an email for Olbermann or COUNTDOWN, so that I can tell MSNBC what a good job he is doing?

Also, anyone know who COUNTDOWN’s sponsors are?
There was a lot of good discussion this week about holding Disney/ABC accountable via their sponsors. Buying from Olbermann’s sponsors has a similar impact on the way GE/MSNBC evaluate Keith.

Sonoma Rus @ 93

My bet is we will never see a trial. Bush will pardon Libby. Bush has nothing to lose. As John Dean points out, even if he’s impeached by the house, there wouldn’t be the necessary votes in the senate.

Bush need only note that potential revelations in the trial would jeopardize national security and that fully justifies Libby’s pardon. Besides anything short of a full pardon could lead to impeachment AND conviction in the senate. There’s no way he would let that happen.

This is my nightmare

Rayne @ 81

scarecrow 61 — find a second validating source OUTSIDE THE US and NOT Parisa Hefezi.

Hefezi covers Iran almost exclusively for Reuters, means there’s the chance that Hefezi is a stovepipe.

Just scanned Turkish and Lebanese papers in Newseum.org, cannot find any mention of Iran-Iraq discussion. Discussion of Pro-Kurd group and PKK negotions, but not Iran-Iraq.

Suspect, IMO.

I was being facetious, given Bush’ tendency to equate everyone with the bad guys, and not making distinctions (as noted by mmr). But thanks for the caution.

NYT has a story indicating talks between Iran/Iraq. But no mention confirming Iran offers to help, as reported above. Nothing on Juan Cole as yet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09…..r=homepage

P J Evans @ 89

Somewhat OT, but cheering:
In his 9/11 anniversary address to the nation, President Bush:
Took pains to be non-partisan – 30% – 11279 votes
Tried to use day of mourning for political gain – 70% – 26044 votes
Total: 37323 votes

That speech went over really well, didn’t it, Georgie?

Very cheering, and pretty much as hoped for. It seems that Der Shrubbenfuhrer has squandered the last of his post-9/11 goodwill.

My bet is we will never see a trial. Bush will pardon Libby.

Not if we make it hot for everyone who supports Libby.

I DON’T BELIEVE THERE WILL BE A TRIAL EITHER.

Once Clusterfuck gets through the elections, it’s pardon time. Cheney testifying in a criminal case and taking questions to which he may have to plead the fifth? Ain’t gonna happen- not no way- not no time.

John Casper @ 93

OfT
Anyone have an email for Olbermann or COUNTDOWN, so that I can tell MSNBC what a good job he is doing?

Also, anyone know who COUNTDOWN’s sponsors are?
There was a lot of good discussion this week about holding Disney/ABC accountable via their sponsors. Buying from Olbermann’s sponsors has a similar impact on the way GE/MSNBC evaluate Keith.

countdown@msnbc.com

1,261 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

*ilson:

“There is only one nuclear armed middle east power…” – YES!!! and that is the 300 pound canary perched in the living room, shittin’ all over the floor!! When the Israelis (at least the right-wing Israelis) tried ta set up the apartheid South Africans with “the bomb” after makin’ France a bit richer by buyin’ the capability from them, we all should have realized that the tail of the dog had grown teeth and we were fixin’ ta get bit in the ass. Only the United States can “contain” Israel and any peace settlement is gunna hafta include their signin’ on to a new nuclear nonproliferation contract enforced thru the United Nations. And only a president with the political strength at home and personal integrity of an Al Gore, could pull it off.

And don’t anybody come at me with any of that “anti-semitism” shit…I’ll put it right back where it came from!

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE AFRAID TA COMPLIMENT THE EMPEROR ON HIS NEW OUTFIT!!!

“His new outfit”

Funny Norske!

Sonoma Rus @ 92

My bet is we will never see a trial. Bush will pardon Libby. Bush has nothing to lose. As John Dean points out, even if he’s impeached by the house, there wouldn’t be the necessary votes in the senate.

Bush need only note that potential revelations in the trial would jeopardize national security and that fully justifies Libby’s pardon. Besides anything short of a full pardon could lead to impeachment AND conviction in the senate. There’s no way he would let that happen.

From reading emptywheel, I think DeadEye Cheney is the real target. Scooter Irving is just a sideshow witness against the Veep.

If Dems win both houses, it would cost the GOP a lot more if Bush pardoned anyone.

rwcole @ 99

I DON’T BELIEVE THERE WILL BE A TRIAL EITHER.

Once Clusterfuck gets through the elections, it’s pardon time. Cheney testifying in a criminal case and taking questions to which he may have to plead the fifth? Ain’t gonna happen- not no way- not no time.

Unless we win those elections.

Cozumel @ 100

John Casper @ 93

OfT
Anyone have an email for Olbermann or COUNTDOWN, so that I can tell MSNBC what a good job he is doing?

Also, anyone know who COUNTDOWN’s sponsors are?
There was a lot of good discussion this week about holding Disney/ABC accountable via their sponsors. Buying from Olbermann’s sponsors has a similar impact on the way GE/MSNBC evaluate Keith.

countdown@msnbc.com

also:

KOlbermann@msnbc.com
dabrams@MSNBC.com
viewerservices@msnbc.com

I wrote them all!

I know, totally OT from the tall timber, but just a thought from a conversation with Mr. Sunshine. Rather than Gov. Bushie threatening ABC with dire developments for the Disney World if the broadcast didn’t air, maybe it was the oxyjunkie sex tourist threatening to say nasty stuff on his radio show.

Being a strong supporter of the first amendment, I’m glad the show was not pulled, disgusting as it was. But now ABC owes a full investigation, complete with follow the money wherever it leads. That should be the lever for not suing for slander/defamation.

And Mr. Jobs, we don’t need your stinkin’ movie downloads.

Dayum, Coz, you’re fast.
A couple of threads back you smoked some troll with Pox News’ 24% drop in ratings. Wow, that was fun to read.

Rayne — now that I read the Ed Wong NYT story more closely, they are reporting that the Iranian president did offer to help and equated Iraq security with Iran security.

In other news, The Muck’s got Doolittle’s House Seat in Trouble?, and The Daily Muck, these:

Beaten in Primary, Lieberman Turns to Lobbyists for Help

Harris Says Gov. Bush Will Stump For Her; State GOP Disagrees

Hunter to Push WH Secret Evidence Bill

American Airlines Mulls Legal Action over ABC’s “Path to 9/11″

Alaska Corruption Case Run from Washington

and several more . . .

Thanks Dru.

John Casper—not as fast as Coz, but here are some additional addresses provided last night by CaliforniaDrySherry:

http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-289810

LHP- suggest you recalibrate your brachial plexus timing

your irght hand is faster than your elft

ps I love and appreciate your insight (and all the other sharp legal minds here)

Thanks RBG.

RBG @ 109

John Casper—not as fast as Coz, but here are some additional addresses provided last night by CaliforniaDrySherry:

http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-289810

And, of course, Spotlight can be used. (The post on Crooks & Liars has quickly become the second most Spotlighted blog post so far.)

As much as wee need to thank KO, (and please do) we also need to present him as a model to others in the media of how a true American acts. So besides thanking Keith, spread the word.

1,261 dayz and the killin’ just goez on and on and…

Citizen Hardin Smith:

Does the formal, published correspondence from Clinton et al mean that the formalities have been met to proceed with defamation action?

KEEP THE FAITH , ALL THEY GOT IS THE MONEY!!!

John– Supposing that Cheney actually is the target- and that Fitzy has balls big enough to try to bag him (relying of facts not in evidence), how would this reduce the chances of a Libby pardon?

If Cheney is actually the target, he sure as hell wouldn’t want to be testifying at a Libby trial. Why wouldn’t Cheney being a target be all the more reason to pardon Libby. I’m missing something here.

Mary, LHP, and Christy,

Something that I’d like your lawyerly opinions on:

In the matter of the pending Specter bill (and its ugly brothers) to immunize past Administration criminal violations of law wrt to “torture”, to “domestic wiretapping” without a warrant, and any other illegality they’re attempting to sweep under the rug, are you aware of any past legal precedent that would allow this to occur?

IANAL, but it seems to me that such legislation would be in effect, a “pardon”, and doesn’t the Constitution only grant that power to the Executive branch?

Have past “criminal” bad acts ever been legislatively “pardoned”?

Sure seems to me that there is a constitutional conflict here, not to mention a moral indignity!

Primordial Ooze @ 111

LHP- suggest you recalibrate your brachial plexus timing

your irght hand is faster than your elft

ps I love and appreciate your insight (and all the other sharp legal minds here)

Is that what causes it? i transpose allthe time?

I’ve long been in the no pardon camp. Originally b/c of the opinion that Chimpco doesn’t believe any crime was committed and Scooter will be vindicated at trial.

From a more political expedient point of view – their damned if they do and damned if they don’t. But of the two, a pardon is more damning. If they lose control of Congress, Chimpco may not care so much about the political fall-out, but still.

As for why Cheney in the cross hairs might affect a pardon: If Scooter is pardoned he can’t claim 5th Amendment rights since he can’t be prosecuted.

Mad Dogs @ 116

Mary, LHP, and Christy,

Something that I’d like your lawyerly opinions on:

In the matter of the pending Specter bill (and its ugly brothers) to immunize past Administration criminal violations of law wrt to “torture”, to “domestic wiretapping” without a warrant, and any other illegality they’re attempting to sweep under the rug, are you aware of any past legal precedent that would allow this to occur?

IANAL, but it seems to me that such legislation would be in effect, a “pardon”, and doesn’t the Constitution only grant that power to the Executive branch?

Have past “criminal” bad acts ever been legislatively “pardoned”?

Sure seems to me that there is a constitutional conflict here, not to mention a moral indignity!

I think you are on to something here, but keep it under your hat until we see of the legislation passes.

Oppose the legislation for what it is trying to do. Which is very, very evil and wrong

John Casper @ 94

OfT
Anyone have an email for Olbermann or COUNTDOWN, so that I can tell MSNBC what a good job he is doing?

Also, anyone know who COUNTDOWN’s sponsors are?
There was a lot of good discussion this week about holding Disney/ABC accountable via their sponsors. Buying from Olbermann’s sponsors has a similar impact on the way GE/MSNBC evaluate Keith.

Check this out! It’s from page 2 of a 3 page article.

Is there anyone over in corporate headquarters who’s seeing what happens as you take this approach and saying, “Keep doing this, it’s helping you”?

Oh, yeah. If there has been any negative reaction to it, it has been kept from me. In other words, they have [approached it] the way you would want employers in this situation to approach it. They have been supportive. They have been interested in what they are supposed to be interested in on a corporate level, which is making money. More ratings, of course. More money. It’s not a complicated solution. It’s the reason that Fox owns Fox News Channel and, say, “Family Guy.” Wherever you can make the money is what interests them and it’s — ironically, given the flaws in commercial broadcasting as opposed to some other models, such as commercial-free broadcasting — it is one of the protections of our liberties that the people who are owning most of it are at bottom line interested only in making money, and whatever makes money is what they will go for. That’s one of our great protections … In fact, sometimes I have to turn to them and say, “No. I know you like this and I know you think this is going to do real well for you in the ratings, but just don’t pull the gun out of the holster every 35 seconds.” If anything, I have to calm them down, rather than the other way around.

http://www.salon.com/news/feat…..source=rss

Mommybrain @
50

With the recent disclosures concerning Valerie Wilson’s reason d’etre at the CIA (Iran), does anyone else think they were going for a twofer, maybe…Both Wilsons?

do you mean, did they intend to shut down credible intelligence on Iran so they could roast mullahs like pop corn and get less criticism for it?

1,261 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

rwcole:

I have asked Christy a similar question…I think that election results will determine where he goez with Cheney…whether an “unindicted co-conspirator” or an indicted one.

KEEP THE FAITH AND SAY YER PRAYERS BUT DON’T HOLD YER BREATH WAITIN’ FOR AN ANSWER!!

Mary @ 57:

From Nuremberg re the Nazis and their German collaborators: “They did so with knowledge of its announced aims and methods, and continued their services after practice had confirmed the direction in which they were tending. Their superiority to the average run of Nazi mediocrity is not their excuse. It is their condemnation.”

That pretty much sums it up – not just for Graham, or a Warner or a Lugar who should know better; but for the whole of the crew in DOJ who knew.

It’s not about ability to interrogate – it’s about never having to face any consequences for committing crimes against innocent people.

Thank you, Mary.

I hadn’t taken in who Richard Armitage really is, until the recent revelations about his role in outing Valerie Wilson made me take a second look. Mr. Armitage was out there with the worst of them, beating the war drums, until long after the main “urgency” of the case for the Iraq invasion was shown to be basically nonexistent. Did we then hear an apology, contrition, and acceptance of responsibility from that man, or the others, before or after he left office? NO. The press eventually got tired of asking Armitage (and the rest) about the more and more self-evident fact of there being no WMD threat from Iraq, and so Armitage and Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney eventually stopped being asked about their (alleged) credulity and misjudgements, and that allowed them to smoothly and painlessly transition into their next unproven PR claim for the “need” of our continued presence in Iraq.

Glenn Greenwald is right: the trail of errors and false claims continues unabated, as unaccounted for as ever, still unaddressed and unconfronted by our media, and yet to be thoroughly condemned as the fraud that it is, just as with the administration’s terrorizing and false rhetoric about Iraq in 2002 and 2003. And the Colin Powells, no matter what their claim to a different opinion may be for public consumption, knew exactly what course of action their involvement was endorsing and facilitating. Richard Armitage for one was aided by the media’s mythology of a major split between the State Department and the DOD or White House. Armitage was actually playing the manipulating public perception game with great intensity and conviction right alongside Cheney and Libby and Bush. And Armitage is no dummy — he is a smart, controlled, expert PR man in his answers and is quick to strike back at any questioner who cuts close to the truth behind his covering BS. For proof, here’s a state department chronological compilation of Armitage’s speeches, interviews and appearances:

http://www.state.gov/s/d/former/armitage/remarks/

Yes, Patrick Fitzgerald and his team need our support, and that of every honest American. He’s got a criminal conspiracy at the top of our federal government on his hands that he cannot singlehandedly crack open. How would we feel, if in his shoes, to know that Armitage was likely in this spy outing conspiracy up to his chin, be unable to reveal the circumstantial evidence to the public that demonstrates it, be prevented from prosecuting because of the covering lies of Armitage’s co-conspirators, and yet be publicly blamed for this inability to prosecute (as though it was his choice) because of the despicable, traitorous actions of the liars he’s been pursuing for years now? The newspaper writers who are casting blame in this case on the Special Counsel – who has been stymied at every turn by the despicable betrayal of the public trust of those he has been attempting to bring to justice – ought to hang their heads in shame.

There are some interesting readers here. I just got an e-mail from a dear friend expressing concern that I was about to be called up during a general mobilization to save civilization.

This is not going to happen. I only do corn fields, anymore. In fact, they’re unlikely to call me up for fear I might shoot the wrong birds. ;>)

My calculations on the pardon:

1) if he pardons- Clusterfuck will take some heat- of course he will try to mitigate the heat by announcing that pardon is because Libby was caught in a political issue when his only crime was trying to make his country safer. The pardon will hurt him a little for a while.

2) If he DOESN’T pardon- the trial will go on. Rover, Cheney, and half the administration will be witnesses. The nation will watch the trial for a month or more and get all the juicy details of behavior that the White House doesn’t want exposed.

The pain of the trial is probably worse than the pain of the pardon- and more unpredictable. Who knows where it will lead- and Libby expects a pardon- if he doesn’t get it- he might turn state’s witness.

I put five bucks on “pardon”.

rwcole – I’ll metaphorically take the bet.

1,261 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

rwcole:

If the Dems win BOTH houses of congress all bets are off and Fitz’ll be balls out!!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET ‘EM NEAR A BALLOT BOX!

Evil Parallel Universe @
126

rwcole – I’ll metaphorically take the bet.

I’ll take some of that action.

Cleter – Which side?

fahrender, I left you a reply in an EPU:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-290863

Thread-wise, THIS is why Plame was outted by Cheney: http://www.rense.com/general68/plamene.htm
Why no WMDs in Iraq? ‘Can you say “Carlyle salting”? I knew you could.’

The other possibility, of course, is that there is no pardon and no trial- Libby might get real sick real fast. If I were Libby- I’d hire some security and a food taster.

rwcole – Then that will be a push. Do I get odds? Cause I think the heavy money will be with you on pardon.

rwcole @ 125

My calculations on the pardon:

1) if he pardons- Clusterfuck will take some heat- of course he will try to mitigate the heat by announcing that pardon is because Libby was caught in a political issue when his only crime was trying to make his country safer. The pardon will hurt him a little for a while.

GWB need not even discuss politics. He can state that because of the high office the defendant held he has inherent access to top secrets that, if revealed, would breech the national security interests of the United States.

I’ll take the bet and raise you five

So Scooter gets a trial? We still do old-fashioned jury trials? What kind of old-school pre-9/11 BS is that? Just send him down to Guantanamo for one of those kangaroo court thingies. He smoked a CIA agent, after all. And, more importantly, he wasn’t wearing a uniform, which means he’s an unlawful combatant, and therefore falls through the invisible, recently discovered loop-holes in our Constitution. Off to Gitmo with him! Sweat in a cage in the sun and repent of your sins, Scooter!

looseheadprop @ 119

Mad Dogs @ 116

Mary, LHP, and Christy,

Something that I’d like your lawyerly opinions on:

In the matter of the pending Specter bill (and its ugly brothers) to immunize past Administration criminal violations of law wrt to “torture”, to “domestic wiretapping” without a warrant, and any other illegality they’re attempting to sweep under the rug, are you aware of any past legal precedent that would allow this to occur?

IANAL, but it seems to me that such legislation would be in effect, a “pardon”, and doesn’t the Constitution only grant that power to the Executive branch?

Have past “criminal” bad acts ever been legislatively “pardoned”?

Sure seems to me that there is a constitutional conflict here, not to mention a moral indignity!

I think you are on to something here, but keep it under your hat until we see of the legislation passes.

Oppose the legislation for what it is trying to do. Which is very, very evil and wrong

Yeah, tis the type of legislation that I’d expect if Al Capone were in charge…wait a sec, he isn’t is he? Who could tell?

Retroactively saying that a crime which actually occurred is no longer considered to be a crime, sounds kinda, ya know, criminal.

rwcole @ 125

My calculations on the pardon:

1) if he pardons- Clusterfuck will take some heat- of course he will try to mitigate the heat by announcing that pardon is because Libby was caught in a political issue when his only crime was trying to make his country safer. The pardon will hurt him a little for a while.

2) If he DOESN’T pardon- the trial will go on. Rover, Cheney, and half the administration will be witnesses. The nation will watch the trial for a month or more and get all the juicy details of behavior that the White House doesn’t want exposed.

The pain of the trial is probably worse than the pain of the pardon- and more unpredictable. Who knows where it will lead- and Libby expects a pardon- if he doesn’t get it- he might turn state’s witness.

I put five bucks on “pardon”.

Pardon may be my nightmare, but it is also the only thing that I can think of that might make Fitz, Comey et al, violate their oaths of office and tell all.

Please, let it never come to that. This betting stuff–My stomach is too weak for it.

Cheney’s warm personal regard for Scoots wouldn’t be enough to keep Libby breathin if he ends up being a danger to the cabal.

The Rude One on Dem talking points – Makes sense…

Potty Mouth Alert

Democrats need to counter that message not by saying that they’ll be better parents – that they won’t fuck the neighbors or they won’t blow the bank account on high-quality smack. No, instead, they need to offer a message that appeals to the American desire to have the guts to stand up to bullies big and small; a message that says that your vote doesn’t have to confirm your fears, but it can be a method of saying that you’re not afraid anymore. So howzabout this one:

“Don’t let Osama Bin Laden tell you how to vote.”

[snip]

Hmmmmm

Some background on presidential pardons from Pitt Law

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons.htm

I think John Dean saaw a pardon in Libby’s future.

Correct me if I’m wrong (like folks here would hold back!), but Bush’s power to pardon would only stop a criminal trial – not the civil suit being brought by the Wilsons.

If this is true, then Bush can’t use the pardon to “put an end” to the legal processes slowing grinding away. All he’d do is keep Irving’s tail out of jail. If Bush is asking, “What do I get out of it?” all that would come back as an answer would be (1) a grateful Irving, and (2) lots of heat from the press, the Democrats, and likely a few Republicans.

Given the amount of grief he would take for it, I’m not sure that Bush would think a pardon is worth it unless it puts the whole thing to sleep.

Evil Parallel Universe @ 129

Cleter – Which side?

No pardon for Scooter. Scooter just sweats in a cage at Gitmo. Eventually Robert Duvall goes down there and gives him a cigar and they talk about how Roman senators used to kill themselves for their emperor, and then Duvall assues Scooter that if he does that, his family will be protected.

WRT a pardon.
Been busy as all get out today, so I’m having trouble keeping up.

IIRC, If Stupie pardons Scooter, that leaves his a** wide open for the civil suit, yes?
That’s where the real disclosure will come? Scooter can’t claim the fifth, and Cheney et al is wide open.

Peterr – You are correct, there are NO pardons for civil offenses.

How does a pardon hurt the lame duck 34% /- president? I don’t see it.

I need to get work done, but Christy or Lhp – WHERE did you get that pdf from the other thread re: the DODIG report?

Sheez freakin louise. Not that Schmitz(?whatizface) is gone, is someone actually going to get serious?

Cambone won’t give them comments – Cambone who was in charge of “intel” and thereby interrogations in his newly minted position?

The Director of the Joint Staff is nonconcurring on findings and recommendations that assign responsiblity to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (now Pace, but remember back in Abu Ghraib days, which seems to me to be when the “findings” would have been from – it was the kindly, avuncular Gen Meyers. Isn’t he the guy who sent Miller – AND – there’s a specific finding that counterresistance interrogation techniques in violation of the Army Field Manual “migrated” to Iraq – from where? And doesn’t that beg the question of whether they were authorized by someone in their place of origin before migration?

Cambone gets smacked with the Dept of the Army concuring with the report and would give them verbal (no paper trail) comments to go direct to the Secretary of the Army (trying for someone to back him??) but refuses to give a response otherwise?

Interesting stuff.

scarecrow #46:

FWIW, I caught the tail end of Lawrence O’Donnell’s interview on Al Franken’s radio show a few minutes ago. His take is that Bush’s speech last night about The Streets of Bagdhad* has now moved the Iraq war into the same electoral territory as his failed Social Security Tour (i.e., he’s moving his mouth and sounds are coming out, but nobody can except the KoolAiders can make out the meaning).

O’Donnell also cited John Tierney’s column in the NYT (behind Punch’s wall) claiming that Osama bin Laden is smarter than Bush and all his minions combined because Chimpy has completely bought into the idea that al-Quaeda is vastly more important than it really is in terms of physical, on-the-ground reality. So now the Texas Twit has set us up for failure, since success in Baghdad isn’t up to us. The good news is that at least 60% of Americans aren’t buying into this criterion for “success”.

What all this tells me (duh!) is that Rove has given up completely on even Republican moderates and is down to frantically working his fanatical base to set up election day GOTV. I hope Dems are working everybody else to do the same.

* Sounds like a 1960’s TV formula detective series: “…a Quinn Martin Production.”

cleter @ 134

So Scooter gets a trial? We still do old-fashioned jury trials? What kind of old-school pre-9/11 BS is that? Just send him down to Guantanamo for one of those kangaroo court thingies. He smoked a CIA agent, after all. And, more importantly, he wasn’t wearing a uniform, which means he’s an unlawful combatant, and therefore falls through the invisible, recently discovered loop-holes in our Constitution. Off to Gitmo with him! Sweat in a cage in the sun and repent of your sins, Scooter!

Sharp enough to cut.

“Don’t let Osama Bin Laden tell you how to vote.”

Damn, that’s brilliant.

Doesn’t a pardon in the criminal proceeding free up the miscreants to lie like rugs in the civil proceeding? Then what do they care, it’s only money which they have all of.

Looking at that picture of Libby, pinched and what my grandmother probably would have called whey-faced, I am struck once again by what little people the Cheney/Bush neocons are–in every sense of the word.

Bush is a shrimp and apparently lies about how tall he is. Those around him must be shorter, as it would not do for any courtiers to raise their heads above the emperor’s, and their physical stature is reflected in their sense of spirit and compassion.

I hasten to add that this is not meant as a negative comment on any FDLers who are vertically challenged, but I do wonder if there is something in the idea of a Napoleonic complex, after all.

Peterr @ 140

Correct me if I’m wrong (like folks here would hold back!), but Bush’s power to pardon would only stop a criminal trial – not the civil suit being brought by the Wilsons.

If this is true, then Bush can’t use the pardon to “put an end” to the legal processes slowing grinding away. All he’d do is keep Irving’s tail out of jail. If Bush is asking, “What do I get out of it?” all that would come back as an answer would be (1) a grateful Irving, and (2) lots of heat from the press, the Democrats, and likely a few Republicans.

Given the amount of grief he would take for it, I’m not sure that Bush would think a pardon is worth it unless it puts the whole thing to sleep.

Not only that, but if he pardon’s Libby, Libby CANNOT use the 5th ammendment to avoid any wonderful questions the Wilson’s lawyers ask. (he may have other privledges, like attorney/client)

Pardoning Irving means the Wilson’s get to go on a fishinfexpidition and Libby has to talk.

Oh and if Libby lies during the civl trial, and gets caught? Well he’s right back where he started with a perjury indictment.

Check, maybe maybe maybe even checkmate

Mary – It is not just Chimpy, but all of repuglicandom that is tied up with ChimpCo’s failures, sins, crimes, incompetence, etc. A pardon is bigger, much bigger, than Chimpy alone. Repugs are in trouble and can’t help but continue to destroy themselves (but I won’t repeat prior posts on that point), and Dem’s will takeover in at least the House. The question is by how much, and how big a hole repugs will need to recover from. A pardon just makes that hole deeper. Kinda makes me wish they do pardon him.

Mary @ 144

How does a pardon hurt the lame duck 34% /- president? I don’t see it.

The fallout from a pardon would effectively nail Bush’s lame duck status in place. The only pull a lame duck president has is his (or eventually, her) power to persuade the Congress to go along with whatever proposals the President has in mind. Presumably, the president trades his/her support for a favorable vote.

The problem, of course, is that if the president has bad poll numbers, the president has no coattails to help pull his friends along – a visit from Airforce One at your next campaign event doesn’t boost your standing with the voters, it kills it.

If Dubya wants to get anything done in the next two years – regardless of who controls Congress – he can’t afford to see his poll ratings drop any further.

Evil Parallel Universe @
126

rwcole – I’ll metaphorically take the bet.

Evil: why don’t you metaphysically take the bet?

My suspicion on pardons is this:
Bush pardons Scooter. Takes a political hit. By pardoning, he has to eat a little of the crime-stink, wipe it on himself. I don’t see him wanting to do that, to sully himself on behalf of others. He is nothing if not a selfish, self-absorbed little turd. But suppose he does.
Then Fitz indicts somebody else. Does Bush pardon perp # 2? Take another hit? What if Fitz indicts somebody else? Politically, Bush isn’t going to want to suffer a death of a thousand cuts.
I think part of the reason for the indictment of a single person was to avoid a mass pardon of a bunch of people.

*ilson46201 @ 17

one thing I guess I have to give Bush credit for — so far Sunni/Shia sectarian violence hasn’t broken out on the NearEastside of Indianapolis. I think I live in a Sunni neighborhood but I’m not really sure about that …

Are you gonna change your name from Omar *ilson?

Mary @ 144

How does a pardon hurt the lame duck 34% /- president? I don’t see it.

I need to get work done, but Christy or Lhp – WHERE did you get that pdf from the other thread re: the DODIG report?

Sheez freakin louise. Not that Schmitz(?whatizface) is gone, is someone actually going to get serious?

Cambone won’t give them comments – Cambone who was in charge of “intel” and thereby interrogations in his newly minted position?

The Director of the Joint Staff is nonconcurring on findings and recommendations that assign responsiblity to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (now Pace, but remember back in Abu Ghraib days, which seems to me to be when the “findings” would have been from – it was the kindly, avuncular Gen Meyers. Isn’t he the guy who sent Miller – AND – there’s a specific finding that counterresistance interrogation techniques in violation of the Army Field Manual “migrated” to Iraq – from where? And doesn’t that beg the question of whether they were authorized by someone in their place of origin before migration?

Cambone gets smacked with the Dept of the Army concuring with the report and would give them verbal (no paper trail) comments to go direct to the Secretary of the Army (trying for someone to back him??) but refuses to give a response otherwise?

Interesting stuff.

It was in my email this AM, I thought it was interesting, it’s a public document, so I sent it on to Christy for her reading pleasure

Fahrender – Good point:

rwcole – I metaphysically take the bet. But I sitll think I should get odds given the way opinion is running on the issue. I say 10-1 would be metaphysically fair.

Evil Parallel Universe @ 157

Fahrender – Good point:

rwcole – I metaphysically take the bet. But I sitll think I should get odds given the way opinion is running on the issue. I say 10-1 would be metaphysically fair.

EPU, if we are correct, I believe rwcole should give us both a pony. A pony for each of us.

1. What is mostly missing in the torture discussion is the important fact that torture doesn’t work. See Jane Mayer’s article in the 11 Sep 06 issue of The New Yorker, entitled
“America’s Top Al Qaeda Informant.”

“…three men (FBI agents) who have spent countless hours debriefing Al Qaeda operatives–all take issue with the kinds of rough interrogations that have characterized the Bush Administration’s approach since September 11th.”
and
“…there is always the possibility that other people with useful information about Al Qaeda will consider becoming informants. You think all of this stuff about torture is going to make people want to come to us? That’s why I get upset when I hear people talking about stress positions, loud music, and dogs….”

2. Recently emptywheel said she will be commenting on the “two birds with one stone” aspect of the Plame case.

3. May Olbermann’s distillation of Bush and his thugs’ 9/11 obscenity be a footnote in credible history books forevermore.

4. The “three Stooges” consisting of Warner, McCain, and Graham hope people will remember what they said, not what they did. That McCain would not give up his life in protest against torture is unfathomable except in the context of willing to do and say anything to become a president in the mold of Bush. Not enough is being made of his Jekyll and Hyde character and way too much about his straight-talk.

Dr. Bong @ 138

The Rude One on Dem talking points – Makes sense…

Potty Mouth Alert

Democrats need to counter that message not by saying that they’ll be better parents – that they won’t fuck the neighbors or they won’t blow the bank account on high-quality smack. No, instead, they need to offer a message that appeals to the American desire to have the guts to stand up to bullies big and small; a message that says that your vote doesn’t have to confirm your fears, but it can be a method of saying that you’re not afraid anymore. So howzabout this one:

“Don’t let Osama Bin Laden tell you how to vote.”

[snip]

Hmmmmm

Dr. B: I’ll have some of that…..

cleter: “Eventually Robert Duvall goes down there and gives him a cigar and they talk about how Roman senators used to kill themselves for their emperor, and then Duvall assures Scooter that if he does that, his family will be protected.”

Odd that. Watching Richard Armitage being interviewed on CBS, I thought he sounded like John McCain and looked like Robert Duvall.

10 ponies with odds. ;-)

I’m not going to get in line to sign the card to his pal – but I don’t see how a pardon would make Fitzgerald turn chatty. Much as I detest the cartel, pardon is a legitimate Presidential perogative and doesn’t justify ditching your prof resp. IMO. Congress had the right and the power to address this whole thing differently – Comey managed to convince them to let him in-house it on a very very very narrow scope, and like all decisions, there are consequences to that.

Pardon is one.

It shouldn’t make a nickel’s worth of difference in how the Spec Pros goes forward and so far I can’t see that it has. I was dead set against the in-house approach, but he’s done a pretty incredible job. Still, all along the approach itself made it likely that there would be lots that would never come out.

Quoth the Craven, Congressnores.

cleter @ 154

My suspicion on pardons is this:
Bush pardons Scooter. Takes a political hit. By pardoning, he has to eat a little of the crime-stink, wipe it on himself. I don’t see him wanting to do that, to sully himself on behalf of others. He is nothing if not a selfish, self-absorbed little turd. But suppose he does.
Then Fitz indicts somebody else. Does Bush pardon perp # 2? Take another hit? What if Fitz indicts somebody else? Politically, Bush isn’t going to want to suffer a death of a thousand cuts.
I think part of the reason for the indictment of a single person was to avoid a mass pardon of a bunch of people.

Further, as with the civil suit, if Fitz indicts someone else, Irving can be compelled to testify because he has lost his 5th ammendment privledge

EPU, LHP, thanks!

Given all that, I’d imagine that the folks in the Pardon office and the White House Counsel’s Office might be having quite the interesting conversations these days . . .

Let’s see . . . I don’t think atty/client privilege applies, as Irving wasn’t acting as Bush’s attorney. Clergy/penitent probably doesn’t apply either, in that I can’t see Bush, Cheney, Addington, or any of the others ever confessing anything to anyone (Those who see themselves as messiahs rarely do). I do worry about a claim of Executive privilege, though, as that might be stretched to cover Irving.

Perhaps if John Dean is lurking, he might have an insider’s opinion on that one . . .

144 — Mary4 Force sighting (only category 1).

HopeSpringsATurtle @ 153

*ilson46201 @ 17

one thing I guess I have to give Bush credit for — so far Sunni/Shia sectarian violence hasn’t broken out on the NearEastside of Indianapolis. I think I live in a Sunni neighborhood but I’m not really sure about that …

Are you gonna change your name from Omar *ilson?

oddly enough, theres a bagger at my local Krogers with that very name which I think is way cool. Most Hoosiers know the name however from the “Omar Bakery” which distributed all throughout Central Indiana…

pow wow @ 161

Odd that. Watching Richard Armitage being interviewed on CBS, I thought he sounded like John McCain and looked like Robert Duvall.

I always thought Armitage looked like a 1940s movie gangster. He looks like Sydney Greenstreet and sounds like Fred Mertz from “I Love Lucy.” I can just picture him in some movie arguing with Cagney or Bogart about some heist gone wrong.

cleter @ 154

My suspicion on pardons is this:
Bush pardons Scooter. Takes a political hit. By pardoning, he has to eat a little of the crime-stink, wipe it on himself. I don’t see him wanting to do that, to sully himself on behalf of others. He is nothing if not a selfish, self-absorbed little turd. But suppose he does.
Then Fitz indicts somebody else. Does Bush pardon perp # 2? Take another hit? What if Fitz indicts somebody else? Politically, Bush isn’t going to want to suffer a death of a thousand cuts.
I think part of the reason for the indictment of a single person was to avoid a mass pardon of a bunch of people.

Good points. He may plan for a January, 2009 pardon of Scoot and tie up Fitzgerald with appeals in the meantime. Part of the game also rests on how PO’d Bush and Rove are at the Cheney folks for getting him into these messes.

‘ere are the salts, lotus! sorry, I was out voting in the NH primary. Was supposed to work, but they sent me home cause it be so sloooooooow– dangit!

Norske– can I have some of your wheaties, pleazze? You have me laughing so hard, I can barely catch my breath!

Mary @ 163

I’m not going to get in line to sign the card to his pal – but I don’t see how a pardon would make Fitzgerald turn chatty. Much as I detest the cartel, pardon is a legitimate Presidential perogative and doesn’t justify ditching your prof resp. IMO. Congress had the right and the power to address this whole thing differently – Comey managed to convince them to let him in-house it on a very very very narrow scope, and like all decisions, there are consequences to that.

Pardon is one.

It shouldn’t make a nickel’s worth of difference in how the Spec Pros goes forward and so far I can’t see that it has. I was dead set against the in-house approach, but he’s done a pretty incredible job. Still, all along the approach itself made it likely that there would be lots that would never come out.

Quoth the Craven, Congressnores.

Given the rubber stamp Congress, there were no good choices. Comey made the best choice he could from the cards he had to play. Then he improved the odds–a lot–by pickin’ Fitz.

When he picked Pat, very few people outside a narrow circle knew the kind of flat out honest guy he was, or how many moves ahead he thinks.

A single pardon of Libby won’t help Bush if Pat has another indictment still up his sleeve, or if the Wilson’s law suit survives the Motion to Dismiss.

Further, there are perfectly legal ways to get GJ material made “unsecret” and Pat has litigated the matter in a very serious way, ealier in his life. He’s kind of an expert on it.

No, my fear, it the kind of wholesale pardoning that killed Larry Walsh’s investigation in Iran-Contra.

That could cause some career ending behavior by men who have already sacrificed quire a lot for their country.

cleter @
155

My suspicion on pardons is this:
Bush pardons Scooter. Takes a political hit. By pardoning, he has to eat a little of the crime-stink, wipe it on himself. I don’t see him wanting to do that, to sully himself on behalf of others. He is nothing if not a selfish, self-absorbed little turd. But suppose he does.
Then Fitz indicts somebody else. Does Bush pardon perp # 2? Take another hit? What if Fitz indicts somebody else? Politically, Bush isn’t going to want to suffer a death of a thousand cuts.
I think part of the reason for the indictment of a single person was to avoid a mass pardon of a bunch of people.

cleter,

you have just written fuckwad’s epitaph:

“he was nothing if not a selfish, self-absorbed little turd”

that has a nice poetic kinda rhythm to it. i give it a 9.

Argh – I’m being too ADdistractable.

I just don’t think a pardon hurts them much. If it was a pardon for violating the Identities act, sure – but I think that a pardon given for Libby, who just misremembered and wasn’t even a Novak source at all, when the Novak sources are walking — I don’t see that hurting even a smidge as much as the pro-wiretap, pro-torture, anti-UCMJ legislation isn’t hurting.

He’s getting all the support he wants even tanked in the polls – because too many GOPers are too intrinsically tied to his theme (must support President to show support for fear terror wot) and the corporatism ties are too strong.

No one even gets too upset over having Cheney (at under 20%) publically pants them to make them toe the line. Soc Sec – that will hurt them; a Libby pardon – as it has been framed? I wish it would hurt, but I don’t see it.

OTOH, I’m horrible at conventional and unconventional wisdom so I defer to those who can call it.

Part of the game also rests on how PO’d Bush and Rove are at the Cheney folks for getting him into these messes.

Really, windje? I wouldn’t have thought they’re pissed at OVP at all (being they’re all on the same page in Imperialism for Dummies, and all) — but only at us who’re pointin’ and laughin’ . . .

I think Fitz wove the possibility of pardon into his overall strategy. He is smart and meticulous in ways that the administration is not.

But fundamentally, I sort of expect no pardon because Bush is not that kind of person. Look at the way they are letting Katherine Harris self-immolate down in Florida. If they are done with you, or worse, if you become an embarrassment, you are dead to them. Also, pardoning implies a degree of magnanimity and selflessness and empathy that Bush has never exhibited. Has Bush taken a hit for somebody else at any time in his so-called presidency?

fahrender

ooh, I wish I could write his freakin’ epitaph.
You are too kind.

cleter @
159

Evil Parallel Universe @ 157

Fahrender – Good point:

rwcole – I metaphysically take the bet. But I sitll think I should get odds given the way opinion is running on the issue. I say 10-1 would be metaphysically fair.

EPU, if we are correct, I believe rwcole should give us both a pony. A pony for each of us.

may i ride one of ‘em?

Fresh out of ponies- but the bet could be for a metaphysical ass- perhaps the one that died between two equally sized bales of hay because there was no good reason to travel to one rather than the other.

Libby, who just misremembered

forgot my sarcasm tags.

rwcole @ 178

Fresh out of ponies- but the bet could be for a metaphysical ass- perhaps the one that died between two equally sized bales of hay because there was no good reason to travel to one rather than the other.

Norske gave you some of his wheaties didn’t he?

looseheadprop @ 36

Lindy H

it worked when I clicke on it in your quote.

just put “backbone campaign” in your browser search feature.

Go look at it, it’s a hoot.

lhp, sorry. I got busy here. The Backbone Campaign is in my bookmarks, and I occasionally get bumper stickers from them…and their postcards, but I haven’t been back for a while. Lots of changes. Good ones. Thanks for the link.

fahrender @ 176

cleter @
159

Evil Parallel Universe @ 157

Fahrender – Good point:

rwcole – I metaphysically take the bet. But I sitll think I should get odds given the way opinion is running on the issue. I say 10-1 would be metaphysically fair.

EPU, if we are correct, I believe rwcole should give us both a pony. A pony for each of us.

may i ride one of ‘em?

Yes, you may. My yard is unfenced, so my pony will just be wandering aimlessly through the neighborhood anyway. If you can catch it, you can ride it whenever you like.

A single pardon of Libby won’t help Bush if Pat has another indictment still up his sleeve, or if the Wilson’s law suit survives the Motion to Dismiss.

lhp (et al.), from where we sit now, what kind of time-frame might you be looking at on that MtD hearing/ruling?

cleter @ 175

I think Fitz wove the possibility of pardon into his overall strategy. He is smart and meticulous in ways that the administration is not.

But fundamentally, I sort of expect no pardon because Bush is not that kind of person. Look at the way they are letting Katherine Harris self-immolate down in Florida. If they are done with you, or worse, if you become an embarrassment, you are dead to them. Also, pardoning implies a degree of magnanimity and selflessness and empathy that Bush has never exhibited. Has Bush taken a hit for somebody else at any time in his so-called presidency?

No question he will only pardon if its in HIS interest, but without ‘the rest of the story’, its hard to handicap that one. Given that he is very secretive, the fact that a pre-trial pardon may preserve some secrets may be another factor to consider.

rwcole @ 177

Fresh out of ponies- but the bet could be for a metaphysical ass- perhaps the one that died between two equally sized bales of hay because there was no good reason to travel to one rather than the other.

Oh, any kind of barnyard animal would do. A llama would be nice. Fahrender, would you like a llama?

NEW POLL: Americans View Bolton As Symbol Of Foreign Policy Failures

Cleter (175), regarding Bush’s lack of humanity in any form, I noticed when he was with his bride in PA yesterday, they were not holding hands while walking over the rough terrain. Unusual. Miz Laura at one point put her hand on his arm to steady herself but the Decider was not paying any attention to the difficulties of the love of his life. What a nice guy she promised to cherish in sickness.

On Lame Duckiness:

GW Clusterfuck has been a lame duck since a few months after he was re-elected- the social security issue baked his buns.

It will get worse and worse for him no matter who wins the election. Even a president doing well reaches lame duckiness in his last two years because his own party becomes obsessed with the question of who will succeed him- they keep takin his pulse “Is he cold yet”. He is nothing but a place filler- and they all want badly to fill his place. In Clustefuck’s case- his own party may give him a nudge!

Oh and by the way, I had to show my DL and sign an affidavit that I was a US citizen today in order to vote.

Nice.

Don’t do it, fahrender — llamas got nasty tempers and they SPIT!

al-Scooter 145: Helpful analysis.

I assume Bush/Rove are just using whatever they’ve got left: “Al-Qaeda is still out there; they’re dangerous. But we’ve kept them from attacking you for five years, because of what we’ve done both in domestic surveillance/”non”-torture and in fighting preemptively in Iraq (instead of here). So keep supporting us, because we’re keeping you safe in what is, and will be for a long time, a very unsafe world. Those other guys don’t understand how dangerous the world still is.”

I assume that the hyperolic rhetoric about Baghdad/civilization is driven by the fear of being perceived as the Administration/party that “lost” a war. (The irony/risk is that they’re raising the perceived damage of what losing means). The need is to forestall any public perception that we’ve lost until after the election, and to hedge their bets, do everything to create the argument that if we do lose, it was the Dem’s fault for failing to support a united front and for appeasing the other side. I think that’s it for “strategy.” Whether this appeals to the “base” only, or to “moderates” or anyone else, who knows? But I think it’s all they’ve got.

The Dem’s counterattack has been primarily complaints at the “fear” mongering and being called appeasers, and the “you took your eye off the OBL ball,” but there has not yet been a clearly defined policy alternative from the Dems –just “you got us into this, and it’s a mess. We need a change.” To what? Hillary and Biden and even Kerry are preventing the Dems from arguing that the entire belligerent paradigm was wrong, and if so, a different paradigm is needed. They don’t believe this, so they can’t sell it. Calls for redeployment (to where? for what?)are only a helpful shortrun step, unless we redeploy to New Jersey. Otherwise, it’s a dodge, IMO, because noone has a clear idea what to do next, other than extract ourselves from the immediate front lines (but not from the Islamic region, which is why OBL hates us in the first place). It is a vacuous policy conversation so far.

cleter @ 184

rwcole @ 177

Fresh out of ponies- but the bet could be for a metaphysical ass- perhaps the one that died between two equally sized bales of hay because there was no good reason to travel to one rather than the other.

Oh, any kind of barnyard animal would do. A llama would be nice. Fahrender, would you like a llama?

maybe a miniature, cuddly one? that would be right spiffy!

Sally @ 186

Cleter (175), regarding Bush’s lack of humanity in any form, I noticed when he was with his bride in PA yesterday, they were not holding hands while walking over the rough terrain. Unusual. Miz Laura at one point put her hand on his arm to steady herself but the Decider was not paying any attention to the difficulties of the love of his life. What a nice guy she promised to cherish in sickness.

Methinks you mistake a stooge who could fall off a Segway with a suave and debonair president.

scarecrow,

“Republicans have failed at everything they have touched”

Is IMHO the only campaign slogan necessary.

Let them argue, “No we haven’t — we didn’t screw up the under-water ping pong match in the Ukraine last summer….”

scarecrow @ 189

al-Scooter 145: Helpful analysis.

I assume Bush/Rove are just using whatever they’ve got left: “Al-Qaeda is still out there; they’re dangerous. But we’ve kept them from attacking you for five years, because of what we’ve done both in domestic surveillance/”non”-torture and in fighting preemptively in Iraq (instead of here). So keep supporting us, because we’re keeping you safe in what is, and will be for a long time, a very unsafe world. Those other guys don’t understand how dangerous the world still is.”

I assume that the hyperolic rhetoric about Baghdad/civilization is driven by the fear of being perceived as the Administration/party that “lost” a war. (The irony/risk is that they’re raising the perceived damage of what losing means). The need is to forestall any public perception that we’ve lost until after the election, and to hedge their bets, do everything to create the argument that if we do lose, it was the Dem’s fault for failing to support a united front and for appeasing the other side. I think that’s it for “strategy.” Whether this appeals to the “base” only, or to “moderates” or anyone else, who knows? But I think it’s all they’ve got.

The Dem’s counterattack has been primarily complaints at the “fear” mongering and being called appeasers, and the “you took your eye off the OBL ball,” but there has not yet been a clearly defined policy alternative from the Dems –just “you got us into this, and it’s a mess. We need a change.” To what? Hillary and Biden and even Kerry are preventing the Dems from arguing that the entire belligerent paradigm was wrong, and if so, a different paradigm is needed. They don’t believe this, so they can’t sell it. Calls for redeployment (to where? for what?)are only a helpful shortrun step, unless we redeploy to New Jersey. Otherwise, it’s a dodge, IMO, because noone has a clear idea what to do next, other than extract ourselves from the immediate front lines (but not from the Islamic region, which is why OBL hates us in the first place). It is a vacuous policy conversation so far.

Answer: Russ Feingold

Hey Imm– they failed at the things they didn’t touch too!

angie @ 193

Hey Imm– they failed at the things they didn’t touch too!

OK, point well taken!

angie and imm

Can anyone name one thing they did well?

can’t wait to play wity my llama. i have to go take a nap now. thanks for lettin’ me stay up late with the growups……

windje @ 195

angie and imm

Can anyone name one thing they did well?

Election rigging. They succeeded at that far beyond the wildest dreams of any old-school back-room party boss of yore.

My bet…

There will be a trial, and Bush and the gang that couldn’t lie straight, will come off looking like whining pitchers after an 8-run first inning…

Fitzy is the winning pitcher, he goes nine.
The trial will not be the winter of our discontent

Jack, with help from Shakespeare on Baseball compiled by David Goodnough…

I think Republicans would say that they:

We removed the Taliban from Afghanistan;
Removed the evil dictator Saddam from power; and
Lowered taxes on all Americans

and and ….

help me out here, I only got three.

Any of these answers are a HUGE help to Democrats and exactly where the conversation should be.

cleter @ 198

windje @ 195

angie and imm

Can anyone name one thing they did well?

Election rigging. They succeeded at that far beyond the wildest dreams of any old-school back-room party boss of yore.

Actually, as I think more about it, they succeeded in packing the court system with lifetime appointment conservatives.

immanentize @ 191

scarecrow,

“Republicans have failed at everything they have touched”

Is IMHO the only campaign slogan necessary.

Let them argue, “No we haven’t — we didn’t screw up the under-water ping pong match in the Ukraine last summer….”

You are probably right that this is all the Dems may need to get a bunch of em elected. That’s something. My point is that it doesn’t seem enough to allow them to govern competently.

Though I suspect the Repubs did screw up that ping-pong match, because we didn’t hear about it.

Imm– they:

Gave the seniors Medicare D
Have the best equipped, all volunteer military in the world.
Listened to their base and saved the embryos!

I’m working on it…

scarecrow @ 202

immanentize @ 191

scarecrow,

“Republicans have failed at everything they have touched”

Is IMHO the only campaign slogan necessary.

Let them argue, “No we haven’t — we didn’t screw up the under-water ping pong match in the Ukraine last summer….”

You are probably right that this is all the Dems may need to get a bunch of em elected. That’s something. My point is that it doesn’t seem enough to allow them to govern competently.

Though I suspect the Repubs did screw up that ping-pong match, because we didn’t hear about it.

It was classified by Cheney

oh wait, windje, the Republicans succeeded at killing lots and lots and lots of people.

they are really good at that!

cleter @ 198

windje @ 195

angie and imm

Can anyone name one thing they did well?

Election rigging. They succeeded at that far beyond the wildest dreams of any old-school back-room party boss of yore.

Good point, but actually, they just paid to have it done. Didn’t the CEO of Diebold promise to deliver Ohio to the Republicans?

and they passed the Terry Schiavo legislation with dispatch.

Clusterfuck and the Shooter have much in common- both have fucked up everything that they have ever done in their lives and have escaped accountability for it.

Cheney fucked up Ford’s re-election, and bought Dresser Industries which damned near killed Halliburton because of the asbestos liability. Cheney doesn’t do his homework. Clusterfuck just stares blankly into space when the word “homework” is used- being forced to think about something vaguely unpleasant that he doesn’t actually recognize from experience.

A pardon would be seen as an admission of wrongdoing. When has Bush EVER admitted he did something wrong?

Ahhh, a reason to get up in the morning after the November elections. After we take back both houses, I want to tie every one of them up in Congressional hearings, subpoenas, and trials. Be still my heart.

Thank you for making my day, Christy.

Clusterfuck allowed as how maybe he had mispoken when he said that thE INSURGENTS should “bring it on”. He didn’t bother to explain what in the hell led him to say it (brain fart?).

The Big Dog meets the bloggers including JH and CHS of the FDL

http://www.mahablog.com/2006/09/12/too-cool/

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015720.html

OT (again) but the primaries here in Maryland are screwed!

MD is a blue state. So if voting in the primaries is such a hassle, how many people won’t bother to go through the shit again in Nov., when it REALLY matters? Who benefits from low voter turnout in Maryland?
News stories for MONTHS have touted electronic (all Diebold, all the time) voting here. How does one FORGET to send the voting access cards to all the polling places, anyway?

Sep 12, 2006 4:27 pm US/Eastern

Polling Problems Create Primary Headache
(WJZ/AP) BALTIMORE WJZ.COM has learned a Montgomery County Judge has ruled that polling places are to stay open until 9 p.m. Tuesday evening. A Baltimore City Judge denied the request to remain opened later.

Despite that decision, the Maryland Democratic Party says it is filing suit seeking an extension of voting hours in Baltimore City because of primary election day glitches.

WJZ’s Adam May says hundreds of voters were turned away because of the problems and many others left after simply getting tired of waiting in line.

http://wjz.com/topstories/loca…..82503.html

Republican claims:

We removed the Taliban from Afghanistan in order to capture OBL, but let him go, and the Taliban are coming back.

Removed the evil dictator Saddam from power; but the replacement isn’t working out and in the process we strengthened Iran’s influence, created a theocracy, and sparked a civil war and sectarian cleansing that’s killed tens of thousands, while inflaming hatred of the US everywhere.

Lowered taxes on all Americans but gave it so disproportionately to the rich that the gap between rich and poor has widened and created more poor and more without health coverage, and the middle class has been losing ground in real (inflation adjusted terms) for six years, and we’ve failed to take care of health and retirement security.

You’re right; it’s a sorry record at best.

cleter @ 175

But fundamentally, I sort of expect no pardon because Bush is not that kind of person. Look at the way they are letting Katherine Harris self-immolate down in Florida. If they are done with you, or worse, if you become an embarrassment, you are dead to them. Also, pardoning implies a degree of magnanimity and selflessness and empathy that Bush has never exhibited. Has Bush taken a hit for somebody else at any time in his so-called presidency?

Bush certainly is that type of person. It’s not about being a good guy to a close friend. It’s precisely because he doesn’t care about anyone else that would cause him to pardon Libby. It’s all about him. Nothing magnanimous about self preservation.

It’s usually a problem to have a lame duckie in the White House because lame duckie’s can’t get their agendas through congress. In this case, though, the lame duckie HAS no agenda- and neither does the gooper congress. They just want to posture- pay off their campaign contributors- and pretend to be doin something.

angie @ 206

Imm– they:

Gave the seniors Medicare D
Have the best equipped, all volunteer military in the world.
Listened to their base and saved the embryos!

I’m working on it…

Defenderating is hard work.

windje @ 215

The Big Dog meets the bloggers including JH and CHS of the FDL

http://www.mahablog.com/2006/09/12/too-cool/

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015720.html

Holy Crow!
Did they talk about Hilary?

windje @ 210

The Big Dog meets the bloggers including JH and CHS of the FDL

http://www.mahablog.com/2006/09/12/too-cool/

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015720.html

Cool. There are some pictures up at talkleft…

The Bubba meeting was, last I heard, to be off the record. I have not heard from Jane or Christy about the meeting yet. I was invited but declined.

atrios is standing behind Jane, slightly to the left.

So that’s where our ladies of the lake were…

my goodness.

fahrender @
196

scarecrow @ 189

al-Scooter 145: Helpful analysis.

I assume Bush/Rove are just using whatever they’ve got left: “Al-Qaeda is still out there; they’re dangerous. But we’ve kept them from attacking you for five years, because of what we’ve done both in domestic surveillance/”non”-torture and in fighting preemptively in Iraq (instead of here). So keep supporting us, because we’re keeping you safe in what is, and will be for a long time, a very unsafe world. Those other guys don’t understand how dangerous the world still is.”

I assume that the hyperolic rhetoric about Baghdad/civilization is driven by the fear of being perceived as the Administration/party that “lost” a war. (The irony/risk is that they’re raising the perceived damage of what losing means). The need is to forestall any public perception that we’ve lost until after the election, and to hedge their bets, do everything to create the argument that if we do lose, it was the Dem’s fault for failing to support a united front and for appeasing the other side. I think that’s it for “strategy.” Whether this appeals to the “base” only, or to “moderates” or anyone else, who knows? But I think it’s all they’ve got.

The Dem’s counterattack has been primarily complaints at the “fear” mongering and being called appeasers, and the “you took your eye off the OBL ball,” but there has not yet been a clearly defined policy alternative from the Dems –just “you got us into this, and it’s a mess. We need a change.” To what? Hillary and Biden and even Kerry are preventing the Dems from arguing that the entire belligerent paradigm was wrong, and if so, a different paradigm is needed. They don’t believe this, so they can’t sell it. Calls for redeployment (to where? for what?)are only a helpful shortrun step, unless we redeploy to New Jersey. Otherwise, it’s a dodge, IMO, because noone has a clear idea what to do next, other than extract ourselves from the immediate front lines (but not from the Islamic region, which is why OBL hates us in the first place). It is a vacuous policy conversation so far.

Answer: Russ Feingold

and al gore.

and scarecrow!

Dem campaign film:

GW Clusterfuck standing in front of the cameras sayin- “and if any of them Iraqi’s want to lead an insurgency against our soldiers- I say- BRING IT ON”

Freeze on Clustefuck’s moronic face

Voice over: “this is the man leading the United States of America”. My opponent has supported him 95% of the time. Vote democrat. The future of your country depends on it.”

Pachacutec @ 223

The Bubba meeting was, last I heard, to be off the record. I have not heard from Jane or Christy about the meeting yet. I was invited but declined.

I’m sure it will be off the record, the question re Hilary was snarkish. Everybody will be watching, let’s not make it an issue, keep our eye on the ball etc. Why didn’t you go?

scarecrow, I like your comment about a vacuous policy debate a lot.

IMO, the pollling (and hopefully electoral) results say a great deal more about Republican weakness than Democratic strength. But that’s OK with me for now, because I see a Democratic Party in transition, with some of the trash (e.g., RG) being taken out and more genuine, netroots-friendly candidates gradually replacing them.

As we enter the open-source era, I’d rather be in the Dem’s position than be stuck with the Rep’s hierarchical model, because it’s so inflexible. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Republican model as it is today is a brilliant adaptation of 1990s mass (top-down) communications, but it can only sell one thing at a time. Once that thing is shown to be wrong, it’s not so easy to retool.

Woowhee! Hangin’ with the Big Dawg! What a conversation that must be.
BTW, anyone know what’s happened to BOPNews? Miss my Stirling fixes.

there’s only one thing that i can say right now:

Well, tie me up and call me Loretta!

maybe a miniature, cuddly one? that would be right spiffy!

can’t wait to play wity my llama. i have to go take a nap now. thanks for lettin’ me stay up late with the growups……

NOOOOOOOoooooo, fahrender! See 191 ^ !

rwcole @ 224

Dem campaign film:

GW Clusterfuck standing in front of the cameras sayin- “and if any of them Iraqi’s want to lead an insurgency against our soldiers- I say- BRING IT ON”

Freeze on Clustefuck’s moronic face

Voice over: “this is the man leading the United States of America”. My opponent has supported him 95% of the time. Vote democrat. The future of your country depends on it.”

If the Dems can’t come up with stuff like this a hundred times over, they just ought to watch the Daily Show reruns, a bit of Monsieur Colbert and some Maher as a nightcap.

rwcole @ 227

Dem campaign film:

GW Clusterfuck standing in front of the cameras sayin- “and if any of them Iraqi’s want to lead an insurgency against our soldiers- I say- BRING IT ON”

Freeze on Clustefuck’s moronic face

Voice over: “this is the man leading the United States of America”. My opponent has supported him 95% of the time. Vote democrat. The future of your country depends on it.”

That is so great. It could actually be a running campaign, interchanging quotes and pictures (torture, Katrina drowning, Iraqi children bleeding to death, our soldiers/amputees in the army hospitals, oh the list is long), with that slogan.

I wished Kerry had used more footage when he was running, juxtaposing the lies with the visuals. Visceral images are what the public needs to drive home the points. And boy do we have a wealth of material.

Shit! You mean TRex wasn’t there?
Guess they had to go with the B-listers.

Looks like Peter Daou is earning his paycheck….

Group photo with Big Dawg blown up 200%

http://i67.photobucket.com/alb…..igDawg.jpg

Pachacutec @ 222

The Bubba meeting was, last I heard, to be off the record. I have not heard from Jane or Christy about the meeting yet. I was invited but declined.

Seems it is no longer off the record. It is like in any faculty (and Valley will support me here) nothing in politics is ever really “off the record.” Sorry you didn’t go, Patch. Your perspective would have been useful.

Mommybrain @ 230

Woowhee! Hangin’ with the Big Dawg! What a conversation that must be.
BTW, anyone know what’s happened to BOPNews? Miss my Stirling fixes.

Me too, MB. Stirling posts sometimes at TPM Cafe, though I’ve been doing project work lately (to which I should return momentarily) and haven’t gotten over there to search for recent posts.

Cozumel @ 236

Group photo with Big Dawg blown up 200%

http://i67.photobucket.com/alb…..igDawg.jpg

Christy looks so proud and happy in that picture! What a beautiful spirit.

Well, yes, as a matterfack: ditto angie!

Mary – The thing is that how they WANT to spin a pardon, and how a pardon is actually perceived by the public are very different things. They don’t control the narrative anymore. I don’t think there is a chance in hell that the perception among the vast majority of the public is that they are covering up greater crimes, and even the present charges don’t really work – that plays out as just another rich, white, connected guy being let off by a “corrupt” system.

Pay attention people! Something is happening in Maryland, a blue state with a Republican running for the open senate seat in November. Check on the diary at Kos re: problems in Montgomery County. Some snippets:

Sharon in MD
Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 06:52:54 AM PDT
In Montgomery County this morning, polls did not open on time as the Board of Elections failed to get the voter access cards necessary to operate the Diebold TS machines to the polling places. After an hour my poll received two of its 8 needed cards. Thus two machines are working.

Only one terminal at each voting place is functional. The problem is three terminals are available but only ONE has a printer. A printout receipt is required for the sign in.
The lack of printers…is a State Board of Elections Issue. The missing voter access cards for the Diebold machines was a County Board of Elections Issue.
Polls will be open until 9 pm. HOWEVER…..the Diebold machines will be shutdown at 8 pm. All ballots cast after 8 pm will be provisional (paper) ballots.
At East Silver Spring, they are offering provisional ballots but only allowing 1 person to vote at a time, which means people are leaving because the line is too long; some people were told to go home at both locations.
Lawyers for the Democratic Central Committee as well as the Washington Post have been notified.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..95254/8327

rwcole @ 226

Dem campaign film:

GW Clusterfuck standing in front of the cameras sayin- “and if any of them Iraqi’s want to lead an insurgency against our soldiers- I say- BRING IT ON”

Freeze on Clustefuck’s moronic face

Voice over: “this is the man leading the United States of America”. My opponent has supported him 95% of the time. Vote democrat. The future of your country depends on it.”

Excelente, Mr. Rwcole.

One friendly amendment? Instead of “The future of the country depends on it.” I would put: “Your future and the future of your family depend on it.”

Typo – can’t edit from the computer I’m now on.

I don’t think there is a chance in hell that the perception among the vast majority of the public is anything other than that they are covering up greater crimes

Also – If you live in Scottsdale, AZ, vote NO on Prop 401.

The dems are crazy if they don’t run against Clusterfuck. In the special election here to replace The Duke, the dem candidate tried to run on “culture of corruption”. She was goin ta be the soccer mom sent to Washington to clean up the place. Never mind that she needed to sell herself as Carrie Nation- not as a soccer mom to do the job- but it fell flat on it’s face.

Run against Clusterfuck- even in gooper districts. The fucker is DISEASED- the fucker is MORBID- america hates the fucker- RUN AGAINST CLUSTERFUCK and his gooper enablers!

windje @
215

The Big Dog meets the bloggers including JH and CHS of the FDL

http://www.mahablog.com/2006/09/12/too-cool/

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015720.html

Cool as shit.

I had the pleasure of performing at President Clinton’s 2d inaugural ball (still have the tote bag with the presidential seal to prove it). Lost the coin toss to meet him and the first lady, though.

It pains me to think how much hope I had for the future back then.

Why didn’t you go?

I’m a back end infrastructure guy, and a political part timer. I have a full time business to attend to first.

I did have lunch today with some people whose capabilities may very well add significant value to our Roots Project site, potentially adding key, core functionalities. That to me is time better invested on my part.

In addition, I was quite satisfied FDL would be well represented at the meeting, though the goals of the meeting were not terribly clear to me at the outset.

Finally, I’m definitely not a photo-op guy, so since the meeting turned into an on the record, photo-op affair, I’m doubly glad I stuck to my core movement development mission, to do back end organization/movement development stuff.

Run against Clusterfuck- even in gooper districts. The fucker is DISEASED- the fucker is MORBID- america hates the fucker- RUN AGAINST CLUSTERFUCK and his gooper enablers!

rwcole – I’ve missed you – basically b/c you agree with me ;-p

new thread

looseheadprop and UptownNYchick, report from my polling place, Rochester NY suburb: light turnout, all Dems. All Dems not surprising since the only thing contested for them is US senate, which is a landslide loss for either one. I’m not sure if there’s any significance to the Dem turnout, as there’s little/no doubt about the outcome of any of the primary races. One positive anecdote – the other guy (old geezer) at the polls said he voted for Tasini to send Hillary a message, too. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t a blog reader, lol. So maybe if enough diehard civic duty type Dems have an unpolled reservoir of p*ssed-offedness at Hillary’s war stance, Tasini will make a dent. Here’s to hoping.

op99 -

Raising a glass to you…

Evil Parallel Universe @ 247

Run against Clusterfuck- even in gooper districts. The fucker is DISEASED- the fucker is MORBID- america hates the fucker- RUN AGAINST CLUSTERFUCK and his gooper enablers!

rwcole – I’ve missed you – basically b/c you agree with me ;-p

Caught the new Angelides ad whilst at the gym earlier. No sound available, but it was beyond obvious that Phil is hanging Chimpy around Arnold’s muscular neck.

Off topic just a little bit, but the house is having a hearing on warrantless wiretaps on CSPAN. One witness just called the Wilson bill pernicious.

thanks drouse– bruce fein and kate martin– go!

Well done, op99.

Adrienne, I’m definitely paying attention to you — but not knowing what to do about it just at this moment, sitting here in central Florida.

emptywheel upstairs

op99 @ 250

All Dems not surprising since the only thing contested for them is US senate, which is a landslide loss for either one.

“Them” meaning Republicans.

1,261 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

rwcole:

“Run against the Clusterfuck…the fucker is diseased, the fucker is morbid, america hates the fucker…”

Oh lord cole, when you are right you are SOOOOOO right. In addition, the Democrats should tattoo Clusterfuck AND the hole in the ground in NYC AND the rotting mess in New Orleans AND the war in Iraq right to the forehead of every single Republican candidate or apologist everywhere. In the supermarket, at the football game, in church, payin’ for gas… paste the motherfuckers all together and roll ‘em down Broadway, and don’t forget to use the “f” word!!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET THE FUCKERS UP FOR AIR!!!

“

looseheadprop @
95

Sonoma Rus @ 93

My bet is we will never see a trial. Bush will pardon Libby. Bush has nothing to lose. As John Dean points out, even if he’s impeached by the house, there wouldn’t be the necessary votes in the senate.

Bush need only note that potential revelations in the trial would jeopardize national security and that fully justifies Libby’s pardon. Besides anything short of a full pardon could lead to impeachment AND conviction in the senate. There’s no way he would let that happen.

This is my nightmare

Support FDL Books, get Marcy Wheelers book out in public by trail date.

How about asking Dubya before the Nov. 7 election if he’s going to pardon Libby? Just to get him on the record.

The Executive Order supposedly authorizing the VP to declassify is, I gather, this one, issued March 25, 2003, and archived at the White House website.

A bit above my pay grade to sort it out.

According to John Yoo:

“We are used to a peacetime system in which Congress enacts the laws, the president enforces them, and the courts interpret them. In wartime, the gravity shifts to the executive branch.”

Hence, Bush and Cheney have assumed the role of executive co-emperors of the universe, able to subvert our hallowed constitutional democracy in unfettered leaps and bounds.

Constant Reader @
150

Looking at that picture of Libby, pinched and what my grandmother probably would have called whey-faced, I am struck once again by what little people the Cheney/Bush neocons are–in every sense of the word.

Bush is a shrimp and apparently lies about how tall he is. Those around him must be shorter, as it would not do for any courtiers to raise their heads above the emperor’s, and their physical stature is reflected in their sense of spirit and compassion.

I hasten to add that this is not meant as a negative comment on any FDLers who are vertically challenged, but I do wonder if there is something in the idea of a Napoleonic complex, after all.

I would note that every one of the men who Bush has been famously caught giving the rude elbow in public—Bill Clinton, Vicente Fox, and George Pataki—is over six feet tall, the last two very much so. Not a huge sample, but consistent.

HUZZAH!

windje @ 199

angie and imm

Can anyone name one thing they did well?

To be fair, the Do Not Call list.