Great post, Taylor.

Nah, say it isn’t so.

Taylor,
Great post. Unfortunately all I have for you is Alka Seltzer.

We all feel that way. Dick Cheney is an evil bastard who should be breaking rocks in the hot sun.

Good morning and thanks, everyone. How the Bush administration can look in the political mirror is beyond me. Virtual Alka Seltzer, CEO, will do.

Just happened to read this on your blog, Taylor, and commented there that I share your feelings. I, too, am sick, sad, angry and disgusted, but take some hope from what appears to be more and more people reaching the limit – they’ve also “had enough” – and it feels to me to be approaching a critical tipping point.

I just do not see how the entire lot of them, from Bush on down through the chain, can continue to function as though they have not – separately and together – committed crimes in their pursuit of power. I do not understand the world that subjects one president to years of investigations and impeachment over a lie told to a grand jury about a sexual affair, but continues to tolerate, and in some cases, even facilitate, the ongoing commission of illegal acts that go to the heart and soul of the country.

Keep fighting the good fight, Taylor – we are all right there with you.

Taylor, you and me both. I’ve been feeling vaguely nauseous ever since I (stupidly) listened to yesterday’s Meet the Press podcast right before bedtime. No sleep for me. Cheney is the Heart of Darkness.

Cheney says, I don’t buy the premature question….That’s because he only thing Cheney buys is expensive bird-hunting guns, extra wide shoes and hydrogen peroxide mouthwash.

Twisted Martini, I hate to disagree with you; the man doesn’t deserve to be out breaking rocks.

He deserves the healthcare that Americans at the poverty line get in this country.

Hi Taylor, Tommy, *ilbo, all,

What a day. What a question. In Japanese martial arts it’s called ‘kuzushi’, a fast strike to surprise the opponent and open their defenses. I’ve see street thugs do it, slammed an old lady into a wall as she got of a bus, then the took her purse and ran. You don’t have to do the slamming yourself, either, cops tell me that people often come home after a funeral to find their house robbed.

Anyone know when the Republicans will be delivering the sequel “Path to Iraq?”

ccmask @ 10

Anyone know when the Republicans will be delivering the sequel “Path to Iraq?”

I hope that’s about the same time the sun cools and expands, enveloping the earth in a still-fiery veil of plasma.

In a just universe, Dick Cheney would be there.

ccmask — you know, I have the feeling we are going to get to see our own production of “Path to Iraq” when Scooter’s trial begins.

Now that I would pay good money to watch.

Thank you Taylor. Mr Cheney, Mr Bush: to the Hague!

Incidentally, American Airlines emailed another response to my concerns about their role on that day five years ago:

Teddy,
Thank you for taking the time to write and find out the facts. We are
getting a lot of response and we appreciate that most people have
checked the facts. Here are the facts: Atta did not check-in at Boston,
he checked in at Portland, Maine. In addition, the carrier that Atta
flew from Portland to Boston was not American Airlines nor American
Eagle. When he got to Boston, he “connected” on American and did not go through an additional check-in or screening process. The writers and producers of this TV show have created a fictional movie based very, very loosely on the facts. American Airlines did not allow Atta through security.

Best,
Tim Wagner
Spokesman
American Airlines

But, MouseHouse couldn’t put it on teevee if it wasn’t true, could they?

On this day of days, the essential character of the George W. Bush Admininstration stands out in all its ugliness:

You ran away and hid!

Abdigo {Abc, Disney, Gop Group}

Thanks for another great post Taylor.
Wrt Russert, imo he could have followed up better yesterday, but I thought his scripted questions were excellent. Of all the tough questions pumpkinhead asked DeadEye, the best may have been, “are we creating more terrorists than we’re killing?” Russert’s tough questions have given all the other political journalists, in DC and out, the cover they need to ask those same questions. Let’s hope they use it. For those who feel as I do, you can send Timmeh a little love here:
Do you have a question, concern or comment for Meet the Press or Tim Russert? Fill in the form below and send us your feedback. We look forward to hearing from you.

General Election all 50 States:
1 month, 26 days, 7 hours, 8 minutes, and 26 seconds

Great Post, Taylor. I feel ill too. It is going to be an uphill battle from here to the polls. If we can’t take the country back now, well – then we’ll feel even worse, knowing we failed when it was so very, very important to the USA and the world to bring a bit of sanity back.

Very good post, Taylor – Let’s also remember that the Anthrax mailer(s) are still out there too

Taylor and others, I don’t know if this will help but I’m reposting a comment i left near the end of the last thread in response to a post by GuitarPlayingBastard:

GPB– I completely get it. Sometimes I despair that America as we know and love it will survive the BushCo assault.

But I also know that a demoralized populace is an easy target for the Totali-barians in the White House.

So when I’m feeling especially bleak, I think of the video clip that was taken of Bush when he was running for governor of Texas where he gives the camera the one finger salute. And I imagine a thought balloon above his pointy little head with the word SUCKERS! in capital letters. And I buck up and go on.

We can’t let the sorry-ass bastards get us down. America needs us.

anyone have the ratings on Path to 9/11 yet? God i am so rooting for them to be in the toilet.

Isn’t the nation getting sick of spending every september 11th rehashing old emotional photographs?

lurkers’r’us @ 20

anyone have the ratings on Path to 9/11 yet? God i am so rooting for them to be in the toilet.

EPU’d from last thread, post 97. Enjoy!

OT, but not really:

FOOTBALL RATINGS DOUBLE ABC ‘911′ FUSS FILM… MORE… 15.1 RATING/23 SHARE FOR NBC ‘SUNDAY NIGHT’ FOOTBALL EASILY BEATS CONTROVERSIAL ABC ‘PATH TO 9-11′ 8.3 RATING/12 SHARE AND CBS ‘9-11′ DOCUMENTARY 8.2/12…

I suppressed my gag reflex and went to the Drudge site to get these, because I saw on Atrios that Couric’s ratings went down after she had Limbot on and was curious, the overnites were a bonus. I expect that they’ll fall even more tonight, esp with a preznitdential address buzzkill in the middle.

Note no difference between ABC’s dreck and CBS’s little hyped repeat.

rwcole @ 21

Isn’t the nation getting sick of spending every september 11th rehashing old emotional photographs?

Kos has some new ones. You won’t like them, but they are symbolically apropos.

TeddySanFran @ 13

Thank you Taylor. Mr Cheney, Mr Bush: to the Hague!

Incidentally, American Airlines emailed another response to my concerns about their role on that day five years ago:

Teddy,
Thank you for taking the time to write and find out the facts. We are
getting a lot of response and we appreciate that most people have
checked the facts. Here are the facts: Atta did not check-in at Boston,
he checked in at Portland, Maine. In addition, the carrier that Atta
flew from Portland to Boston was not American Airlines nor American
Eagle. When he got to Boston, he “connected” on American and did not go through an additional check-in or screening process. The writers and producers of this TV show have created a fictional movie based very, very loosely on the facts. American Airlines did not allow Atta through security.

Best,
Tim Wagner
Spokesman
American Airlines

But, MouseHouse couldn’t put it on teevee if it wasn’t true, could they?

Wonder if the lawyers at the Mouse House are hearing from the folks at American Airlines today? Allbright, Berger, and the Clinton folks may have a new corporate partner in any legal discussions . . .

Peter Bergen did a piece on Afghanistan yesterday in the Wapo. Here’s a couple of key grafs:

But the key to the resurgent Taliban can be summarized in one word: Pakistan. The Pakistani government has proved unwilling or incapable (or both) of clamping down on the religious militia, even though the headquarters of the Taliban and its key allies are in Pakistan. According to a U.S. military official, not one senior Taliban leader has been arrested or killed in Pakistan since 2001 — nor have any of the top leaders of the militias headed by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Jalaluddin Haqqani, who are fighting U.S. forces alongside the Taliban.

(snip)

The Afghan population remains generally pro-American, and its appetite for more conflict is low after more than two decades of war. However, the risks of a slide into Iraq-style chaos remain. Averting it would require Washington to end the Afghan drug trade and compel Pakistan to crack down on the Taliban warriors’ havens. These are both tall orders, but Washington could gain real leverage in the area of reconstruction. So far, it has appropriated only $9 billion for Afghan reconstruction, as compared with $34 billion for Iraq, even though Afghanistan is larger, more populous and has greater infrastructure needs. And of the appropriated amount, only $2.5 billion, a State Department official told me, has been spent.

In the absence of greater U.S. investments in roads, power and water resources, the Taliban will surely prosper and continue to gain adherents. Unless they take decisive action now, U.S. policymakers may be looking back in a few years, asking themselves why they lost Afghanistan despite the promise the country showed after the fall of the Taliban regime.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01614.html

Great post, I would like to know your opinion on the fact that Cheney bet Tim that they would keep their power in Nov.

Taylor–

Your remarks are spot on and completely appropriate for this day. Another World Trade Center equivalent has been lost in the lives of brave young Americans in Iraq and tens more World Trade Center equivalents have been visited upon the people of Iraq who had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 9-11.

The memories of lives lost on 9-11 is all the sadder because of the pretext it gave for MORE mourning in a different part of the world. And we CAN at least reduce further loss of American lives there if we learn THAT lesson of 9-11.

Reposted from the last thread, but more appropriate here:

Lest we forget, the only authorization that allowed the President to send troops to Iraq was based on the specific and fraudulent linkage of 9-11. To wit:

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

Approved September 18, 2001.

I especially like the last part about not superceding the War Powers Act. Bottom line: now that it is admitted by the Administration that there was no linkage between 9-11 and Iraq, our invasion was patently illegal. Even granting the dubious claim that our occupation is merely the result of a mistake, there is clearly no authorization for staying there, since there is no claim even by the Administration that the terrorists who are now in Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

At very least, it seems to?me,?a new authorization is absolutely required immediately.

And, as the kids say, good luck with that.

alsways enjoy pics of our first dick headed president out in public with our first lobotomized first lady. Smile Vacantly Laura Belle!

thanks evildrpuma!

And things are going so well in Iraq, except where they aren’t. From today’s WaPo:

Situation Called Dire in West Iraq
Anbar Is Lost Politically, Marine Analyst Says

By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 11, 2006; Page A01

The chief of intelligence for the Marine Corps in Iraq recently filed an unusual secret report concluding that the prospects for securing that country’s western Anbar province are dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there, said several military officers and intelligence officials familiar with its contents.

The officials described Col. Pete Devlin’s classified assessment of the dire state of Anbar as the first time that a senior U.S. military officer has filed so negative a report from Iraq.

One Army officer summarized it as arguing that in Anbar province, “We haven’t been defeated militarily but we have been defeated politically — and that’s where wars are won and lost.”

And to think that Bush and Rove pride themselves on being such consistent political winners. Perhaps Rove ought to try winning a political victory in Anbar.

EvilDrPuma @ 23

rwcole @ 21

Isn’t the nation getting sick of spending every september 11th rehashing old emotional photographs?

Kos has some new ones. You won’t like them, but they are symbolically apropos.

Wow, Mr and Mrs President of America stepping on the American flag.

It’s now 9:11-9:11 -06 PST

I don’t think Laura is lobotomized – I think she’s bored stiff by having to listen to Shrub being taught his lines and repeating them for hours on end.

About Cheney not buying the premise: Remember, these people are the ultimate parody of post-modernism. They create their own reality. If Deadsoul Dick doesn’t say it’s real, it ain’t real, and no pile of body bags, no matter how tall, is going to change his mind.

Watertiger remembers, vividly.

http://derenegade.blogspot.com/

Another good question Timmeh asked DeadEye was, “what will ‘victory’ look like?”

Let’s stop navel gazing and frame the fucking question!

NASCAR and WWF don’t want to hear/read analysis. They want to be told how to think. Like this:
OK, you voted for the guy because you’re pissed about the fact that white, blue collar america is fading way too fast. They got you all agitated about gays too. They know your buttons. Pushed em all. It’s politics.
But then they lied to you. And kept lieing to you. And keep on lieing to you. The don’t care about the average guy. The average guy vote for them is just a way to keep making their rich friends richer. And they lie to you. About Iraq, about the price of gas, about crooked, thieving cronies who got even richer off your hard earned and paid tax dollars.

We’ve got to keep the message brutal. Simple. Hammer and hammer again.

9/11 is Kos’s birthday. Go distract him from the sadness.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/11/11735/4271

Taylor–Wonderful post and video. Great work.

On the senate race–good news and bad news–bad news is Missouri- gooper has the lead in the last several polls. Good news is Virginia- Gooper steppin on his dick.

great post,thanks taylor.

riz biz

Yeah- well that message says- “You are a bunch of stupid asses”

Don’t know if that’s the best way to get their votes.

At 25, angie quotes Peter Bergen’s claim that “The Afghan population remains generally pro-American, … .”

After months of reading Christina Lamb (stories and blogging) from Afghanistan for the Times of London, I grant her a good deal more credibility than Peter Bergen.

And that’s not what she says.

I posted this on the end of the last thread but it can go as well here.

froggermarch #62,

You reference the AUMF for Afghanistan of 9/14/01. The AUMF for Iraq of 10/11/02 states

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to–
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

It has the same Wars Powers limitations as the previous AUMF.

rwcole– that VA news is fine indeed! Wonder if Georgie is still wearing those boots seeing as how he’s stepping on it.

GO WEBB!

It’s been a long time since ANYONE offered the average american working person ANYTHING—there are nice little handouts for the non working poor from time to time- and great gobs of freebies for the wealthy- nothing SUBSTANTIAL for the working people pulling down $30K to $50K.

Come on dems- offer em some cash- see what happens!

Great post, Taylor.

“I’ve said all I’m going to say on this subject, Tim”

Three times Darth Vader, that Judas, refused
to answer questions on the CIA leak…

We need to impeach those esteemed lying bunch
of arrogant arsholes…

Jack

Excellent post,

It says something about how psychotic our policies are that our two biggest allies on the war on terror are Saudi Arabia which gave us 15 of the 19 911 hijackers and Pakistan whose ISI created and sponsored the Taleban.

As for the Saddam Hussein connection with al Qaeda, (apologies for repeating myself) a 100 million Arabs knew this was baloney from day one and it is a reason why we have so little credibility with them.

Thanks, JenNix, appreciate everyone’s kind words.

Afghanistan is an important subject today, because the violence is so bad it interrupted a CNN report this morning. Dangerously unstable begins the description.

My latest rant to my papers:
_____

At some point you just have to laugh at the surreal, brazen absurdity and audacity of the Bush administration. On Sunday, September 10th, Vice President Cheney responded to Tim Russert on “Meet The Press.” by claiming that, yes, had we known back then what we know today (that Saddam in fact had no WMD), they’d have invaded anyway. Quoting the MSNBC “Meet The Press” website:

‘…Asked by “Meet the Press” host Tim Russert whether the United States would have gone ahead with the invasion of Iraq anyway if the CIA had reported that Saddam did not, in fact, have such weapons, Cheney said yes…”if we had to do it again, we would do exactly the same thing”…’

[ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14767199/ ]

You almost have to perversely admire the unmitigated narcissistic gall. The simple truth, however, is that, had the public and the Congress known back then, Bush and Cheney et al would simply not have been able to bully the nation into the blank check for their disasterous little adventure that has drained so much blood and treasure, a bungled gambit that is making our nation less secure by the day. Bin Laden could not have paid for more effective accomplices.

The number of troops that GW Clusterfuck has butchered in Iraq and Afghanistan now exceeds the number of americans he allowed Al Queda to butcher on 9/11.

Nice goin dickhead!

Hi there Bobby- good ta see ya!

OT – My business partner in New York ran in to Michael Isikoff at a Barmitzfa over the weekend. He said he tried to press him to see if he knew which way Chris Matthews leans. LOL He didn’t get an answer though.

rwcole -

Likewise. Home today awaiting the plumbers. Water heater blew during the night, inch of water all over the garage floor.

The joys of home ownership.

;)

5 Things I Learned in “The Path to 9/11″

1. Toyota clearly is working with Al Qaeda as evidenced by them only using Toyota pickups for transportation and training.

2. Bill Clinton and his team actually did an excellent job of being vigilant and keeping America safe. America never was attacked by IslamoFascist “whatevers” again after the initial bombing while he had been in office only one month.

3. Bill Clinton had 7 years of the U.S. not being attacked by terrorists, while Bush is bragging about only 5 years.

4. Bill Clinton didn’t keep us fearful of the IslamoFascist “whatevers” or our own government during his time in office.

5. I’ll take oral sex over a war against an undefined invisible enemy anyday.

Thanks for the movie ABC/Disney. I didn’t know how good we really had it back in Clinton’s day.

Peace!

But Hugh, it was OUR money that was used to help the Taliban. Right?

Chicago Sun Times: Accuracy aside, ABC’s ‘9/11′ deserves to bomb
8 September 2006

BY DOUG ELFMAN TELEVISION CRITIC

I once sat in a car forever waiting for my mom to come out of a grocery store. I thought that was the definition of “interminable.” I had no idea “The Path to 9/11″ was in my future…..

Y’all impressed with the gall of Cheney’s performance yesterday on MTP, just wait ’til you hear, see or read any given few lines of his speech at the Pentagon this morning. Just sayin’.

Saddam trial going on. He is being accused of butchering Kurds. His defense is that he was only going after insurgents (which is true) and that the other casualties were collateral damage. If his defense doesn’t work- then GW Clusterfuck has nothing to rely on at the Hague.

Hugh @ 48

Excellent post,

It says something about how psychotic our policies are that our two biggest allies on the war on terror are Saudi Arabia which gave us 15 of the 19 911 hijackers and Pakistan whose ISI created and sponsored the Taleban.

As for the Saddam Hussein connection with al Qaeda, (apologies for repeating myself) a 100 million Arabs knew this was baloney from day one and it is a reason why we have so little credibility with them.

It’s worth repeating yet again, Hugh. We have manipulated, meddled egregiously, and used the entire region in a malicious, self serving way for years.

And thank you for the post, Taylor– Afghanistan has suffered for decades now and is in worse shape than ever thanks to G.W. Bush and the cabal. There is precious little comfort I take in the lack of terror here when we are doing so much to create it there and in Iraq. These goons have succeeded at absolutely nothing positive. Only fools would vote for more of the same…..

Words are escaping me today, and Taylor this quote below from your post sums up how I feel. Thank you.

I can’t help but say I’m sorry for how this day hits me. I don’t intend or desire to make political hay on our nation’s open wound, but I’m simply so furious there is no quarter for those in power who used our deepest collective pain to wage war on an ideological whim, while letting a mass murderer get away.

Fox “News” showed the clip of that weather man freaking out about the cockroach on his leg, and the Fox news “reporter”/host says probably because the cockroach was “Al Gore”.

The last bit of dirt was thrown on the grave of free press ’round here.

one EXCELLENT post

I want to make one thing CRYSTAL Clear though, you are a little too kind;

Our intelligence wasn’t nearly as bad as George W. Bush led us to believe on Iraq

I’m sorry, the intelligence was PRECISE, the president was informed in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that Iraq posed no threat, they were informed in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that saddam and bin laden were enemies, that saddam DID NOT support terrorism

the intel was PERFECT, and our agencies did an INCREDIBLE job

the president was informed he would be making the fight against terrorism harder to win and the advice of the finest military strategists ON THE PLANET were OVERRULED by DRAFT DODGING CIVILIANS WHO HAVE NO MILITARY CLUE

instead of heeding the advice of our trained generals, theY set in motion the maniacal plans of the PNAC

the PNAC IS WHERE WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THE ADMINISTRATION, WE NEED TO PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THIS AND GET THIS ON MAIN STREAM MEDIA

the pnac is a SICK fraternity determined to destabilize the world so they could put the treasure of Iraq in their own pockets, and IN THE PROCESS, empty the coffers of the wealthiest country on planet earth THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Tenet is derelict in duty, changing his report to suit the president’s agenda, and unless he comes CLEAN to protect this nation from these people and TESTIFIES UNDER OATH, he needs to be recorded in history culpable among the principle participants in what was done to this country

Hugh at 44–

Thanks for the clarification and correction on the two AUMFs. In my fury of the moment, I looked at the wrong one.

I would backfill my comments, however, to say that I still believe that based on the Iraqi AUMF the current democratically-elected government of Iraq is not a “continuing threat” and that the United Nations resolutions have been more than fully “enforced”. I still think, in other words, that re-authorization is the least that is called for at this point and that the War Powers Act is still being violated.

Everyone in Washington must have photos of Tenet getting it on with a goat. No other explanation for his willingness to eat gooper shit at the same time they fricasse him.

GW Clusterfuck snuff film debuts in Toronto to a torrent of applause.

me to me @ 63

one EXCELLENT post

I want to make one thing CRYSTAL Clear though, you are a little too kind;

Our intelligence wasn’t nearly as bad as George W. Bush led us to believe on Iraq

I’m sorry, the intelligence was PRECISE, the president was informed in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that Iraq posed no threat, they were informed in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that saddam and bin laden were enemies, that saddam DID NOT support terrorism

the intel was PRES ICE, and our agencies did an INCREDIBLE job

the president was informed he would be making the fight against terrorism harder to win and the advice of the finest military strategists ON THE PLANET were OVERRULED by DRAFT DODGING CIVILIANS WHO HAVE NO MILITARY CLUE

instead of heeding the advice of our trained generals, the set in motion the maniacal plans of the PNAC

a sick fraternity determined to destabilize the world so they could put the treasure of Iraq in their own pockets, and IN THE PROCESS, empty the coffers of the wealthiest country on planet earth THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Tenet is derelict in duty, changing his report to suit the president’s agenda, and unless he comes CLEAN to protect this nation from these people and TESTIFIES UNDER OATH, he needs to be recorded in history culpable among the principle participants in what was done to this country

THX FOR THAT.

rwcole @ 65

Everyone in Washington must have photos of Tenet getting it on with a goat. No other explanation for his willingness to eat gooper shit at the same time they fricasse him.

707 – True dat!

Old Sow @ 56

But Hugh, it was OUR money that was used to help the Taliban. Right?

Actually, no. The Soviets left Afghanistan in 1989 and we rapidly lost interest. The country descended into chaos, warlordism, and civil war. The Taleban was formed in 1994 and had effective control of Afghanistan by 1996, except for a small area in and around the Panshir Valley held by the Northern Alliance. The Taleban government was diplomatically recognized by only 3 countries: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the UAR.

bin Laden is NOT alive. He’s been dead for years.

Zawari’s latest string of videotapes proves it.

If they are both hiding together in the same place, and have been for years, why has Zawari issued so many videotapes, but bin Laden hasn’t appeared on tape a single time?

Both libs and conservatives have something to gain by claiming bin Laden is still alive.

Even al-Qaeda knows that an announcement of bin Laden’s death would be devastating for the radical Muslim world. If they admit “the Great Satan” had succeeded in getting him, they would be acknowledging their weakness and the strength of the US.

In addition, bin Laden’s ego would never allow him to remain silent for all this time.

The $64,000 question is this: who has the balls to make this case? Who wants to be the blog that becomes famous for breaking the news that bin Laden is dead?

There is plenty of evidence out there, for anyone who wants to play detective. The potential for fame is enormous.

And, BTW, I am issuing this challenge to bloggers on both sides of the political aisle. It’s an equal-opportunity gold mine.

Hugh @ 68

Old Sow @ 56

But Hugh, it was OUR money that was used to help the Taliban. Right?

Unocal and the Taliban did business. Laili Helms smoothed some introductions that were probably pretty lucrative. And there was that $43 million that the US handed over- something about poppy eradication?

Thank You Taylor, a great post that expresses my feelings exactly, it usually does take a woman to do that.

I’m of the camp that ‘thinks’ and ‘feels’ that Osama is no longer on this earthly plane, that he really did die in 2003 in a Pakistani hospital of renal failure as was rumored many times. It’s my number one belief of why the Bush administration and the FBI dismisses looking for him, they know. But it serves their purposes to say he’s alive to keep the fear going. Just as it is in Pakistan and Al Qaida’s interests not to confirm it because it keeps America in fear.

I also don’t think they will try to whip out Osama has been captured/killed for the Oct Surprise, they need him “alive” until after the 2008 presidential election. No, they need another major terrorist ‘incident’ instead for this election cycle. Bastards.

That photo over at Kos of Chimpy stepping on disrespecting the flag rug says it all doesn’t it? I thought they outlawed flags on clothing etc? So they put it on a rug for Bush to wipe his feet on? I’m sad enough today, talk about floored.

Everbody’s knows the saying Don’t just get mad, get even. Raw Story has a new report up that could spur you to do just that.

I tried to link to it and couldn’t, so pasted the url.

It’s about a new TV ad from The Center for Security Policy, some offshoot of a right wing think tank. and the ad is pure fear-mongering propaganda. This is what we’re going to be seeing from now till November.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0911.html

PS Can somebody help me do the linking thing?

John Casper @ 57

Chicago Sun Times: Accuracy aside, ABC’s ‘9/11′ deserves to bomb
8 September 2006

BY DOUG ELFMAN TELEVISION CRITIC

I once sat in a car forever waiting for my mom to come out of a grocery store. I thought that was the definition of “interminable.” I had no idea “The Path to 9/11″ was in my future…..

LMAO

Elfman outshales Tom Shales (WaPo TV critic)

Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.

Bush gave money to the Taliban:

Enslave your girls and women, harbor anti-U.S. terrorists, destroy every vestige of civilization in your homeland, and the Bush administration will embrace you. All that matters is that you line up as an ally in the drug war, the only international cause that this nation still takes seriously.

That’s the message sent with the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell, in addition to other recent aid, makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that “rogue regime” for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God. So, too, by the Taliban’s estimation, are most human activities, but it’s the ban on drugs that catches this administration’s attention.

http://www.robertscheer.com/1_…..052201.htm

Never mind. Looks like the link is fine.

Hugh @ 74

Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.

Makes sense to me. Bet Michael Moore could do a great job with that scenario.

The gooer game plan for 2006 is simple “If you vote dem- terrorists are going to kill you and everyone you love.”

Yep- it IS that blatant.

Rocket,

1) There is ZERO evidence to suggest bin Laden is dead. Quite the contrary, fairly recent voice prints etc

2) In my opinion, bin Laden and Zawari aren’t together

rwcole @ 78

The gooer game plan for 2006 is simple “If you vote dem- terrorists are going to kill you and everyone you love.”

Yep- it IS that blatant.

Islamo Terrorists, rw. And Mehlman is their Zarkawi

Excellent post, excellent query – I just heard broadcasts from 911 including an interview with Goss saying that no one believed that state sponsored terrorism was involved with 9/11. And mentioning the three week earlier notice that something was coming (although even then omitting that the notice was given to a vactioning Bush who stayed on vacation).
*******
angie @25, lotus @43

I’m thinking Bergen wants it so badly (I can empathize with that). I generally give a lot of weight to his pieces, but IMO he’s wrong that this is a “one word” *Pakistan* issue or that Afghans remain so generally pro-American.

The problem there, as so many places in Africa and the ME, is that there is a tremendous dearth of government which means a dearth of items like road, electricity, plumbing, food, food distribution, medical care, etc.

Something fills that hole. We haven’t done it or helped Karzai to do it (a bit of his secondary point). If it were not Taliban, it would be something else – without regard to Pakistan. Like Hezbollah that filled the hole in Lebanon. Like Hamas has filled in Palestine.

Not only have we not “filled” the void, we’ve created more void – bombed villages, roads, plants, etc. – and spent outrageous sums for things that were only crony based payoffs with no benefit to the Afghan people.

If I could afford it I would take out a full page ad. in the NYT, WSJ, Wash Post, and as many other newspapers I could, and paste these same conclusions right there for America to see for themselves. Then we could see how the Admin. and pundits would respond.

P.S. Why doesn’t Pres. Clinton, Sandy Beger, and Madeleine Albright, file a defamtion suit and request a TRO on Disney/ABC today? They knowingly published the misrepresentation of a material fact, to a third party (the American Public), which caused injury, by damaging the affected parties’ standing in the community, to their detrement.

It needs to at least be out there to dispute the Bogus nature of the film.

angie @
25

Peter Bergen did a piece on Afghanistan yesterday in the Wapo. Here’s a couple of key grafs:

But the key to the resurgent Taliban can be summarized in one word: Pakistan. The Pakistani government has proved unwilling or incapable (or both) of clamping down on the religious militia, even though the headquarters of the Taliban and its key allies are in Pakistan. According to a U.S. military official, not one senior Taliban leader has been arrested or killed in Pakistan since 2001 — nor have any of the top leaders of the militias headed by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Jalaluddin Haqqani, who are fighting U.S. forces alongside the Taliban.

Part of the problem is that this bunch believed Francis Fukuyama–that we were in an age of post-history–and also misunderstood that to mean that we no longer had to pay attention to history.

There was plenty of evidence before 2001 of complicity between the Pakistani ISI and the Taliban (of which one can think them religious kindred spirits to bin Laden and particularly Ayman al-Zawahiri). We knew damned well that Pakistan was a conduit of funds to the Taliban because we set up that arrangement in the course of our proxy war in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia was also kicking lots of money into that pot and the ISI was siphoning off funds to use after the Soviets gave up on Afghanistan–probably on the order of half a billion dollars.

So, all of a sudden, Pakistan is devoted to our interests after 9/11? This bunch of people never considered the fractures and divided loyalties inside the Pakistan establishment and simply assumed that shoveling money to Musharraf would accomplish their ends, nor did they contemplate, for a moment, recent history, especially where the radical religious Saudis who supported fundamentalism in Pakistan and Afghanistan was concerned.

But, this sort of black/white, reductive thinking is their hallmark. Zawahiri and bin Laden are on the loose today because there are factions inside the Pakistan government (and probably in the Saudi hierarchy, as well) that don’t want them captured, and want the Taliban to succeed.

When the Iraqis staind up- americans will stand down- and come home.

Well 300,000 Iraqis or so have “stood up”- so how many americans have “stood down”? It’s a negative number. How can that be? Did GW Clusterfuck LIE again?

The trouble is that the Iraqis don’t have authority- so give em guns and BADGES- then we can leave- they need stinkin badges!

Australian Industry Minister doesn’t take advice (on the environment) from smart people like Gore. Well… he sure as hell takes advice along with the PM (Iraq) from idiots like the Bush crowd.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20…..NlYwM3NTM-

This is what Bergen isn’t fully factoring IMO – Pakistan has little to do with these failures -

Top soldier quits as blundering campaign turns into pointless war

“All those people whose homes have been destroyed and sons killed are going to turn against the British,” he said. “It’s a pretty clear equation — if people are losing homes and poppy fields, they will go and fight. I certainly would.

“We’ve been grotesquely clumsy — we’ve said we’ll be different to the Americans who were bombing and strafing villages, then behaved exactly like them.”

THen there’s Sudan, Somalia – Feingold is about the only politician who mentions them.

Dru @ 70

Hugh @ 68

Old Sow @ 56

But Hugh, it was OUR money that was used to help the Taliban. Right?

Unocal and the Taliban did business. Laili Helms smoothed some introductions that were probably pretty lucrative. And there was that $43 million that the US handed over- something about poppy eradication?

There was a competition between Bridas and Unocal to build a pipeline through Afghanistan. Bridas first made contact with the Taleban in August 1996. In September 1996, the Taleban took Kabul and the following month Unocal expressed support for the government, something it later denied. In November 1996, Bridas signed a deal with the Taleban for the pipeline but there was continued competition between the two until Clinton’s cruise missile attack in August 1998 as a result of which Unocal suspended its Afghan operations.

http://www.worldpress.org/spec…..meline.htm

It is also important to note that the Taleban were exceptionally inept at governance. Something like 30% of the population was dependent on international food aid and while disdainful they were almost always willing to accept aid from others while ignoring the conditions that accompanied it.

Peter Bergen’s piece was pretty clear in indicating that “the generally pro American” support is not at all a given. I do fault the Pakistanis and the Coalition forces primarily for this entire debacle– there’s a lot of history there!
MFI pointed out our military failings in Afghanistan quite viscerally many times. We abandoned the people a long, long time ago and have done little to no reconstruction. Cluster bombs and landmines litter the now destroyed landscape and the poverty is undiminished.

Good to have this conversation, though.

montag (#83)

i guess the Cheney Administration never read this poem:

Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle

the Aryan brown,

For the Christian riles and the Aryan smiles and

he weareth the Christian down,

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name

of the late deceased.

And the epitaph drear: “A fool lies here who tried

to hustle the East.”

R. Kipling – “The Naulaka”

Found it in a Hunter Thompson book……..

fahrender @ 77

Hugh @ 74

Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.

Makes sense to me. Bet Michael Moore could do a great job with that scenario.

Which ‘reality’ would you be referring too? Fox News/9ll Commission/Disney/ABC/GWB-WH? Stop me if I’m getting warm.

I understand how much it hurts: http://www.learningandteaching…..onance.htm

Inform yourself…you owe it to those we remember today. If the Jersey Girls can put up with the smear and swift-baoting by the likes of Coulter, we can at least listen to what they have to say.
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

Eric Alterman fired as blogger for MSNBC….

P.S., I’m Fired… [permalink]

First, the bad news: I’m fired. MSNBC.com has decided to end its support of “Altercation,” and indeed, all of its association with yours truly as of this Friday.

Ok, now, the good news: My friends at Media Matters for America have decided that the cause of continuing “Altercation” in its current, politically independent form to be worthy of their support. So we’re not dying, just moving. Our new URL will be http://www.MediaMatters.org/Altercation and I will also become a MM Senior Fellow.

(Snip)

Whether my termination is, in fact, a product of a political decision at GE/NBC, which according to reports I read and gossip I hear, has lately taken a much firmer hand in guiding the content of both MSNBC and MSNBC.com, I have no way of knowing. I have never even spoken with the Web site’s current editor-in-chief, nor has anyone communicated with me beyond my immediate circle of editors.

(Snip)

It would surprise no one if this site caused some discomfort at 30 Rock, if and when they happen to notice it. But speculation is not the same thing as evidence,….

Could Olbermann be next?

Now the report is out for Anbar – again, a political – not military – failure. Turkey and Kurdish PKK have mounting antagonism and exchanges. MEK reconstituted as Rumsfeld’s version of freedom fighters.

Roads not being built. Electricity not being restored. Sharia enshrined in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Education for women and girls, protection of women and children and non-fundamentalists – eviscerated. More bombers recruited. Oil fields pumping, with no accounting for proceeds.

Bush at his best. Unfortunately – that seems to actually be the truth. This is his best.

Apparently Gonzales was on, pumping how much he needs more tools for his toolbelt. Apparently he’s unaware of the view from behind.

Good morning everyone — Kind of, but not really, off topic, Charlie Brown has a diary up at DKos. If anybody could click this link and recommend it, that would be great.

Here is an excerpt:

When you visit the Vietnam Wall, go down where the two walls come together, and the last name is Lt. Rich Vandegeer. Rich died May 15th, 1975 on a small island off the Cambodian coast named Koh Tang. Rich was actually one of the first to die that day, but, by the luck of the alphabet, he gets to be the last name on the wall.

Rich died because of failed intelligence, as did others that day.

I know because I was there.

Meanwhile, the campaign doesn’t feel it’s appropriate today to release the xlnt news I hinted about, so it will be out tomorrow.

OT – But an important 9 11 discussion topic.

I took a week off, and may take more, b/c at times I find the comments (and some posts) “frustrating” – particularly the belief that we live under a fascist (if not Nazi style fascist) government. My point on this is simple – if we really did, you would know. And I have a much longer post on this particular subject, but that is not why I am back today for a cameo.

This is for Steve Gilliard, and his opinion that somehow, New Yorker’s “own” 9/11 and you all who were not there can’t understand/comprehend/and should stay away.

First, my bona fides (since Gilliard’s comment was as a New Yorker and Valley Girl commented that no New Yorker disagreed with Gilliard): Born in NYC, raised in NYC and LI. Lived the vast majority of my adult life (other than college and grad school) in Manhattan; was living in, and was in, Manhattan on 9/11/2001. I know people who died, including, among others, a relative’s husband and my younger sister’s neighbor. I also have a relative who works for the PA who was written up as a hero in Newsday for his actions that day in saving a good number of people. Both of my brothers in law were working downtown at the time, and one of them was unlucky enough to have a view of people jumping to their deaths. And, I’ve smelled the lingering acrid odor (including almost everyday for 6 months assisting a friend with his business located south of Canal and west of Broadway on an almost daily basis in early 2002).

I’ve been trying to figure out what Gilliard’s point is/was. To me, it’s the creation of a false and ridiculous dichotomy to state that if you were not THERE in person, you just can’t understand, and you’re empathy is not only unwarranted but unappreciated, and you shoud shut the fuck up.*

Those who were “there” have no special claim to what happened on 9/11; if anyone claims otherwise then they should shut the fuck up – whether they are an allegedly “famous” blogger or not.

Visit the “hole,” speak and write on anything you want, or do whatever else makes you feel better/connected – and don’t worry about some inane statement/argument made by a blogger. I, and they, have no more standing than you do concerning anything that happened on 9/11, in NYC, DC or PA.
________________________________
* At best it is ridiculous. At worst it is a conscience attempt to use sentiment to elevate the writer’s status vis a vis others who were not there in person that day, rather than make any cogent argument as to why, if you were not, there, you should shut the fuck up.

~~~~ EPU- This is Valley Girl and I made no such statement about the general views of New Yorkers. You have me confused with someone else. Moderators get enough shit around here already and last night wasn’t pretty, so this is catching me at a very bad moment.

Jen,

All you’ve say here and say so well marks how radically Bush has already transformed the meaning of 9/11, aggravating the trauma al Qaeda inflicted on us. The emotions you express are by now part of the day’s significance to reflective Americans. Let’s hope that this becomes clearer to us all once the clouds clear and that we proclaim it to the world in unison.

There was always the risk that our nation would flirt with tyranny under the pretext of defending against a foreign danger and that the destruction of our liberties would come from within, not abroad. James Madison and Abraham Lincoln both spoke to the subject and were not alone.

This for Cheney: We’ll decide when a question is premature, thank you. And there is something worse than a premature question: a premature answer that serves as a casus belli. Further, if you think this country has an open season on journalists you’re in the wrong country and I can suggest some others where you and your shotgon and feel totally at home.

http://www.unknownnews.org/060214a-Barrett.html

Bin Laden tapes are as phony as Sept. 11’s connection to Islam

by Kevin Barrett, The Capital Times [Madison, WI]

Feb. 14, 2006

As a Ph.D. Islamologist and Arabist I really hate to say this, but I’ll say it anyway: 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam. The war on terror is as phony as the latest Osama bin Laden tape.
It’s a tough thing to admit because I know on which side my bread is buttered and dropping Islam from the 9/11 equation is dropping my slice of bread butter-side-down. The myth that 9/11 had something to do with Muslims has poured millions, if not billions, into Arabic and Islamic studies. I finished my Ph.D. last year, so all I have to do is Filed under: Bush administration plays ‘terror’ for political gain keep my eyes in my pocket and my nose on the ground, parrot the party line, and I’ll be on the fast track to tenure track.

The trouble is, it’s all based on a Big Lie. Take the recent “bin Laden” tape, please! That voice was no more bin Laden than it was Rodney Dangerfield channeling my late Aunt Corinne from Peoria. I recently helped translate a previously unknown bin Laden tape, a real one from the early ’90s, back when he was still alive. I know the guy’s flowery religious rhetoric. The recent tape wasn’t him.

The top American bin Laden expert agrees. Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s religious studies department, has just published a book of translations of bin Laden’s speeches. He says that the recent tape is a fake and that it is possible bin Laden is not even alive.

Fake bin Laden tapes, “verified” by the CIA, are nothing new. Every supposed bin Laden statement since 2001 has been blatantly bogus. The last we heard from the real bin Laden came in his post-9/11 statements to Pakistani journalists:
“I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation. … I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. … I had no knowledge of these attacks.”
Then on Dec. 13, 2001, as George Bush was whining about the “outrageous conspiracy theories” that were spreading like wildfire, the first and shoddiest of the “bin Laden speaks from beyond the grave” tapes appeared. The video’s sound and picture quality were horrible. It showed a big guy with a black beard, doing a passable imitation of bin Laden’s voice, claiming foreknowledge, if not responsibility, for the 9/11 attacks, and chortling over their success. The trouble was, the big guy clearly was not bin Laden. He was at least 40 or 50 pounds heavier, and his facial features were obviously different.

The “Fatty bin Laden” tape was widely ridiculed, and I have yet to meet an informed observer who considers it authentic. (If you haven’t figured this out yet, go back and look at the images from the tape and compare them to other images of bin Laden.) But the media let the fraud pass without asking the hard questions: Why was the U.S. government waving this blatantly fake “confession” video in our faces?

Perhaps due to the widespread hilarity evoked by “Fatty bin Laden,” the next Osama from beyond the grave message had no images it was an audiotape delivered to al-Jazeera in fall 2002. The CIA verified it as authentic and then got a rotten egg in the face when the world’s foremost voice identification experts in Switzerland reported that “the message was recorded by an impostor.”

Every bin Laden message since then has been equally phony. They are released at moments when the Bush regime needs a boost and the American media go along with the fraud. Remember the bogus bin Laden tape that made headlines right before the 2004 presidential election? If you didn’t figure out that it was a CIA-produced commercial for George Bush, I have some great bridges to sell you. Walter Cronkite, bless his heart, opined that Karl Rove was behind that tape. But the rest of the media just kept pretending that the emperor was clothed.

Bu$hCo:

They fought the Truth,
and the Truth LOST.

(Apologies to Bobby Fuller)

Bu$hCo:

They fought the Truth,
and the Truth LOST.

(Apologies to Bobby Fuller)

I’m sure some bright young wingnut has already suggested shipping a few barrels of purple ink for thumbs to the “lost” Anbar province. That’ll save democracy!

*ilson46201 @ 99

I’m sure some bright young wingnut has already suggested shipping a few barrels of purple ink for thumbs to the “lost” Anbar province. That’ll save democracy!

Don’t you know? Everything is fine in Iraq. Ask any local: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_1LlwLVqs

angie – I’m not saying that Pakistan is not a problem. It’s just that, IMO, even if you had Pakistan crack down on the Taliban, you would have something other than the Taliban crop up – there will always be something to crop up when there are voids. That is the problem IMO – we didn’t fill the void we created taking the Taliban out and we have created more voids that go unfilled.

It’s the story of the ME and Africa in general. We were happy to prop dictators and royal families and not worry about exploitation of populations. Now we are in a desparate “WOT” and measure success by trying to cement more strategic alliances with — more dictators and royal families. While still allowing for – and now more actively (via bombing, infrastructure destrucion, occupation, etc) participating in, exploitation of civilian population.

That’s a losing game plan, with or without the Taliban or al-Qaeda. It’s the ultimate whack a mole, bc “the next thing” is constantly at the door with that approach. IMO

EPU,
Kazuza.

EPU!

mensch! thank you for that! welcome. thank you for manifesting your almightly presence with us……

“No evidence Bin Laden’s dead”? Huh?

Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December [2001] and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan’s president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama’s gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama’s ghost alive or because they have no means of communication.
With an ego the size of Mount Everest, Osama bin Laden would not have, could not have, remained silent for so long if he were still alive. He always liked to take credit even for things he had nothing to do with. Would he remain silent for nine months and not trumpet his own survival? [New York Times. July 11, 2002]

Pakistan’s Musharraf: Bin Laden probably dead

Pakistan’s president says he thinks Osama bin Laden is most likely dead because the suspected terrorist has been unable to get treatment for his kidney disease.

[A Bush administration official] said U.S. intelligence is that bin Laden needs dialysis every three days and “it is fairly obvious that that could be an issue when you are running from place to place, and facing the idea of needing to generate electricity in a mountain hideout.” [CNN]

Renal dialysis — talking about hemodialysis — is something that really is reserved for patients in end-stage renal failure. That means their kidneys have just completely shut down. The most common cause of something like that would be something like diabetes and hypertension. Once that’s happened, if you’re separated from your dialysis machine — and incidentally, dialysis machines require electricity, they’re going to require clean water, they’re going to require a sterile setting — infection is a huge risk with that. If you don’t have all those things and a functioning dialysis machine, it’s unlikely that you’d survive beyond several days or a week at the most. [CNN]

Karzai: bin Laden ‘probably’ dead

Osama bin Laden is “probably” dead, but former Taliban leader Mullah Omar is alive, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said. [CNN]

FBI: Bin Laden ‘probably’ dead

The US Federal Bureau of Investigation’s counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, says he thinks Osama bin Laden is “probably” dead. [BBC]

Magazine runs what it calls bin Laden’s will

The editor-in-chief of a London-based Arab news magazine said a purported will it published Saturday was written late last year [2001] by Osama bin Laden, and shows “he’s dying or he’s going to die soon.” [CNN]

Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader. “The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead,” the source said. [FOX News

Osama bin who?

Israel does not view bin Laden as a threat. [Janes]

Israeli intelligence: Bin Laden is dead, heir has been chosen

Israeli sources said Israel and the United States assess that Bin Laden probably died in the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan in December. They said the emergence of new messages by Bin Laden are probably fabrications, Middle East Newsline reported. [World Tribune]

[See also The Fake bin Laden Audio Tape]

When you hear a threat which is “probably” made by bin Laden, just remember that he’s “probably” dead.
Also think about who benefits from your believing he’s alive.
“Osama bin Laden”

Fitter than ever in 2004

——————————————————————————–

The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said. [New York Times 07/03/06]

I agree EPU. I am very leery about the ownership of grief. It creates a separation where there should be a sharing and uniting.

*ilson46201 @ 99

I’m sure some bright young wingnut has already suggested shipping a few barrels of purple ink for thumbs to the “lost” Anbar province. That’ll save democracy!

Or, then again, maybe not. Would probably get several more barrels of dyed-purple human thumbs back in the return mail.

fahrender @ 103

EPU!

mensch! thank you for that! welcome. thank you for manifesting your almightly presence with us……

Please don’t swell EPU’s ego too much, after all, he’s not almighty, just omniscient…

:-)

Well done, Taylor.

One of the reasons we got here from there is that the press failed to do its job. But this time they’ll have less excuse. Your excellent post, along with the quotes from the Senate report, are one their way, via Spotlight, to lots of national security and other correspondents.

I urge others to Spotlight this post to as many of the national and local media as you can.

No evidence that Elvis is alive? Then why all the sightings? Yeah, answer me that. If Elvis isn’t alive, then why are so many people seeing him!

Dr. Bong – True. Though it would be a much better world if I were omnipotent as well.

Moi, Fahrender, Hugh – Much appreciated.

Does anyone know how many dialysis machines are in Pakistan? 72. That’s all.

How hard would it be to stake out all 72 hospitals with dialysis machines to catch Osama if he were still alive? Even if he were in the rugged rural area, he has to get dialysis every 3 days or he’s dead.

(CNN) — Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said Friday he thinks Osama bin Laden has not been able to get treatment for his kidney disease and is most likely dead.

“I think now, frankly, he is dead,” Musharraf said in an interview with CNN, “for the reason he is a patient, he is a kidney patient. We know that he donated two dialysis machines into Afghanistan. One was specifically for his own personal use.

Medical site re dialysis in Pakistan:

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/…..l/15/6/769

Intermittent haemodialysis treatment in Pakistan began in 1970. At present there are 72 public and private haemodialysis centres, mainly in the urban areas. Facilities in rural areas are almost non-existent. Therefore most of the patients from rural areas tend to be referred late, usually in emergency units at the nearest tertiary care centre. However, these facilities are gradually improving with philanthropic support. Recently the government has started sponsoring a programme to provide free dialysis. This has not only increased the number of patients on dialysis but has also improved the dialysis facilities. At present, over 2000 patients are being dialysed under this programme.

I’ve stated before here that I doubt Bin Laden is alive. Here’s one of the better of many links:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html

wrh is a lot busier than usual today, so it might take a while to load the page, but it loads….

Moderator: Can I readdress this comment to Taylor? With apologies. — Thx. CT

Creeping Truth @ 95

JenTaylor,

All you’ve say here and say so well marks how radically Bush has already transformed the meaning of 9/11, aggravating the trauma al Qaeda inflicted on us. The emotions you express are by now part of the day’s significance to reflective Americans. Let’s hope that this becomes clearer to us all once the clouds clear and that we proclaim it to the world in unison.

There was always the risk that our nation would flirt with tyranny under the pretext of defending against a foreign danger and that the destruction of our liberties would come from within, not abroad. James Madison and Abraham Lincoln both spoke to the subject and were not alone.

This for Cheney: We’ll decide when a question is premature, thank you. And there is something worse than a premature question: a premature answer that serves as a casus belli. Further, if you think this country has an open season on journalists you’re in the wrong country and I can suggest some others where you and your shotgon and feel totally at home.

Mary, I do see your point.

Ahmed Shah Massoud would have pulled the country together, though.

But he was assassinated on 9/9/01.

There will be another Afghan leader to fill the void when we fund the rebuilding by the people (not our contractors), stop killing the people, offer hope and restore the honor of the Afghan people. Oh, and most importantly– stop using the people and their resources for our selfish purposes.

Same thing goes for Iraq.

Bush’s poodle @ 104

Lots of speculation there (and some clear contradictions in the various reports)–but, it might well be true that bin Laden is not among the living.

But, what’s the surest way to stop people looking for you? By convincing them you don’t exist any longer. :)

At this point, there’s so much disinformation coming from all sides that it would be impossible to determine what’s true and what’s not. The fact that our own government has their own secret agenda in this doesn’t make the task of finding the truth any easier. (!)

Cheers.

scarecrow @ 108

One of the reasons we got here from there is that the press failed to do its job.

NO – The media is doing a fine job…just like they’re told:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..ckquot-98/

We can see it today (and yesterday) on ABC/Disney.
“Learn that poem…learn that poem”

Evil Parallel Universe @ 110

Dr. Bong – True. Though it would be a much better world if I were omnipotent as well.

Moi, Fahrender, Hugh – Much appreciated.

Agreed… and as one who was just about as far removed from NYC (Kansas City), my brother lived (and still lives, thank God) in lower Manhattan and the shock and horror and worry I felt at the time were indeed real.

Lou Costello @
90

fahrender @ 77

Hugh @ 74

Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.

Makes sense to me. Bet Michael Moore could do a great job with that scenario.

Which ‘reality’ would you be referring too? Fox News/9ll Commission/Disney/ABC/GWB-WH? Stop me if I’m getting warm.

I understand how much it hurts: http://www.learningandteaching…..onance.htm

Inform yourself…you owe it to those we remember today. If the Jersey Girls can put up with the smear and swift-baoting by the likes of Coulter, we can at least listen to what they have to say.
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

lou costello:

i have every respect for the jersey girls and i am quite willing to believe that we don’t know what really happened. i continue to try and inform myself. what new information do you have that passes the smell test? i’ve lived through more than forty years of JFK conspiracy theories and i’m pretty sure i don’t have forty more to wonder about 9/11. i prefer to focus my energies on more tangible stuff like the elections in november. there is not a prayer in the world that we will ever know any more than we do now unless we get better people in nation office. such a goal may be as well not doable but it at least seems more doable than trying to peel the 9/11 onion now, in the unempowered posture in which we find ourselves. if we take the house in november maybe i’ll be more open to other ideas and possibilities……

Dr. Bong @ 107

fahrender @ 103

EPU!

mensch! thank you for that! welcome. thank you for manifesting your almightly presence with us……

Please don’t swell EPU’s ego too much, after all, he’s not almighty, just omniscient…

:-)

yeah, well, if you notice i didn’t say almighty. i said almightly……..

Dru @
70

Hugh @ 68

Old Sow @ 56

But Hugh, it was OUR money that was used to help the Taliban. Right?

Unocal and the Taliban did business. Laili Helms smoothed some introductions that were probably pretty lucrative. And there was that $43 million that the US handed over- something about poppy eradication?

That 43 million or whatever amount it was was a big deal on the left at the time. A lot of people thought Dubya shouldn’t be giving them money. Whole thing kind of dropped down the memory hole. Was antibody’s wrist even get slapped over it?

$43,000,000? isnt that what ABC/Disney paid for that PT911 fiasco? coincidence???

A truly great though highly unlikely way to observe 9-11 would be an annual day of no airplane travel, for the quiet days with no contrails breaking the clear blue skies was an unlikely gift of that terrible time.

Evil Parallel Universe @ 110

Dr. Bong – True. Though it would be a much better world if I were omnipotent as well.

Moi, Fahrender, Hugh – Much appreciated.

and have you been indulging your thespian urges during this hiatus?

fahrender @ 118

…..and i’m pretty sure i don’t have forty more to wonder about 9/11. i prefer to focus my energies on more tangible stuff like the elections in november. there is not a prayer in the world that we will ever know any more than we do now unless we get better people in nation office. such a goal may be as well not doable but it at least seems more doable than trying to peel the 9/11 onion now, in the unempowered posture in which we find ourselves. if we take the house in november maybe i’ll be more open to other ideas and possibilities……

Amen!

Focus, pups, focus:

General Election all 50 States:
1 month, 26 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes, and 1 second

tick, tick…

Pakistan and the ISI have long thought Karzai was a goner. Look at it from their point of view. The US walked after the Soviet withdrawal. We invaded after 911 but walked again leaving a weak, unstable puppet government.

And it is not just Afghanistan. They have their own history with us that they can look to. The moment we get what we want from them. We forget about them. Well, they have learned their lesson. Nowadays they play us. They make a few forays here and there. They help with the war on terror, especially when the targets are threats to their own government but the Taleban? Not so much. They don’t see the Taleban as a threat. Rather they see them as a group that can stabilize Afghanistan and which they can manipulate.

You also have to understand their domestic situation. Pakistan is a crazy quilt of feuding tribal groups and sects, overwritten with a strong current of Islamic extremism fanned and financed by the Saudis. It is a very unstable place (with nuclear weapons) and the Pakistani powers that be are not going to cut their own throats to help anyone out, especially fair weather friends like us.

clusterfuck on the tube tonight lookin for his normal 9/11 gimme on approval points.

This is the real election kick off- and it starts by spotting the goopers a few points on account of three thousand americans died on their watch. Doesn’t seem right- but there ya are.

Fortunately- the points don’t last long- just a couple of weeks- then we’re back into the normal bullshit.

In terms of advantages/disadvantages:

Gas prices coming down.

Mortgage rates staying below 7%

Americans are still scared of terrorists

VS.

War in Iraq is a bloody mess

Housing market going into the crapper

economy slowing

wages stagnant to negative

How’s it all going to turn out? Beats me. The situation is fluid.

montag @ 115

Bush’s poodle @ 104

Lots of speculation there (and some clear contradictions in the various reports)–but, it might well be true that bin Laden is not among the living.

But, what’s the surest way to stop people looking for you? By convincing them you don’t exist any longer. :)

At this point, there’s so much disinformation coming from all sides that it would be impossible to determine what’s true and what’s not. The fact that our own government has their own secret agenda in this doesn’t make the task of finding the truth any easier. (!)

Cheers.

and of course, if you had as many connections as bin laden and as much money you could propbably have your own personal dialysis equipment. i think that’s pretty farfetched but, once the speculation begins…..

And to the thousands of Americans who have died in Iraq, add the tens of thousands of Iraqis.

*ilson46201 @ 121

$43,000,000? isnt that what ABC/Disney paid for that PT911 fiasco? coincidence???

are you saying that that tall fellow in Michael Eisner’s guest house is ……..?

Fahrender – Yes. Although just trying to work out some plot issues.

I have been thinking of more plays too – I really want to do Sartre and/or No Exit – Was it lack of an Exit Strategy; which I find amusing. I am trying to figure out how to have Laura as Estelle and Condi as Ines. I’ve already got Rover as the Valet, and Chimpy as Garcin, but the female characters are a little tougher.

Old Sow @ 122

A truly great though highly unlikely way to observe 9-11 would be an annual day of no airplane travel, for the quiet days with no contrails breaking the clear blue skies was an unlikely gift of that terrible time.

that’s certainly one of my clear memories of that week. eerie, it was…..

EPU- This is Valley Girl and I made no such statement about the general views of New Yorkers. You have me confused with someone else. Moderators get enough shit around here already and last night wasn’t pretty, so this is catching me at a very bad moment. Believe me, I am biting my tongue.

HotFlash @
9

Hi Taylor, Tommy, *ilbo, all,

What a day. What a question. In Japanese martial arts it’s called ‘kuzushi’, a fast strike to surprise the opponent and open their defenses. I’ve see street thugs do it, slammed an old lady into a wall as she got of a bus, then the took her purse and ran. You don’t have to do the slamming yourself, either, cops tell me that people often come home after a funeral to find their house robbed.

Great metaphor! They go to extremes and will take the door and window out frame and all. Now where did those trillions go missing in the DOD that Rummy couldn’t account for? Would have purchased a few pieces of body armor for sure.

fahrender @ 123

Evil Parallel Universe @ 110

Dr. Bong – True. Though it would be a much better world if I were omnipotent as well.

Moi, Fahrender, Hugh – Much appreciated.

and have you been indulging your thespian urges during this hiatus?

EPU has thespian urges? Do tell …

Evil Parallel Universe @ 131

Fahrender – Yes. Although just trying to work out some plot issues.

I have been thinking of more plays too – I really want to do Sartre and/or No Exit – Was it lack of an Exit Strategy; which I find amusing. I am trying to figure out how to have Laura as Estelle and Condi as Ines. I’ve already got Rover as the Valet, and Chimpy as Garcin, but the female characters are a little tougher.

Samuel Beckett might be a rich source to mine ……….

and then of course “No Sex Please, We’re Baptist”

angie,

Massoud would not have united the country. He was an ethnic Tajik, not a Pashtun the largest of Afghanistan’s ethnic groups and they would never have accepted him. BTW Karzai is a Pashtun as are a lot of the tribal peoples across the border in the Territories of Pakistan.

Just had an acquaintance tell apolpgise about beeing daft today, but she was upset today from having watched The Path to 911 last evening. She was particularly disturbed by the “fact” that “we had him surrounded and then called it off”. This is not a stupid woman either, she thought it was a “fact based re-enactment”. I told her it was a pack of lies and directed her to some places to look online…still…cats out of the bag and scratching the upholstery…

Given Director David Cunningham’s extreme religious views, in his mind we can assume God talks through him. Apparently, God is a big fan of NYPD Blue, circa 1993.

Valley Girl @ 133

EPU- This is Valley Girl and I made no such statement about the general views of New Yorkers. You have me confused with someone else. Moderators get enough shit around here already and last night wasn’t pretty, so this is catching me at a very bad moment. Believe me, I am biting my tongue.

I believe it was lhp who said that; as it happened, by the time that comment posted, another New Yorker (LeislerNYC ?) had in fact disagreed with Steve on that issue.

Ed*ard Teller @
124

fahrender @ 118

…..and i’m pretty sure i don’t have forty more to wonder about 9/11. i prefer to focus my energies on more tangible stuff like the elections in november. there is not a prayer in the world that we will ever know any more than we do now unless we get better people in nation office. such a goal may be as well not doable but it at least seems more doable than trying to peel the 9/11 onion now, in the unempowered posture in which we find ourselves. if we take the house in november maybe i’ll be more open to other ideas and possibilities……

Amen!

Focus, pups, focus:

General Election all 50 States:
1 month, 26 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes, and 1 second

tick, tick…

yes, don’t forget gauleiter Karl’s favorite trick:

“Look! Look! Look at the pretty shiny thingy!!!!

You know what I’d really love to see on my shelf groaning with FDL Books one day?

d r i f t g l a s s : Greatest Hits
Vol. [I through umpty-ump]

*ilbo @
134

HotFlash @
9

Hi Taylor, Tommy, *ilbo, all,

What a day. What a question. In Japanese martial arts it’s called ‘kuzushi’, a fast strike to surprise the opponent and open their defenses. I’ve see street thugs do it, slammed an old lady into a wall as she got of a bus, then the took her purse and ran. You don’t have to do the slamming yourself, either, cops tell me that people often come home after a funeral to find their house robbed.

Great metaphor! They go to extremes and will take the door and window out frame and all. Now where did those trillions go missing in the DOD that Rummy couldn’t account for? Would have purchased a few pieces of body armor for sure.

Thanks, *ilbo. I’ve got half my letters off to the Committee on Armed Services about Military Commissions Bill 2006, then more Disney/Apple letters incl to the Clintons et al to ask them to please follow this up. Coz what it’s all about is, as Ed*ard Teller says:

General Election all 50 States:
1 month, 26 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes, and 1 second

tick, tick…

And primaries in 9 states and DC tomorrow. Anybody got stats?

lotus @
142

You know what I’d really love to see on my shelf groaning with FDL Books one day?

d r i f t g l a s s : Greatest Hits
Vol. [I through umpty-ump]

boy, he has one really powerful post up today, yes?

Thanks NefLes. Much appreciated. I didn’t think I had an out-of-body experience. I remembered someone said it…

lotus @ 142

You know what I’d really love to see on my shelf groaning with FDL Books one day?

d r i f t g l a s s : Greatest Hits
Vol. [I through umpty-ump]

lotus: amen to that!! He’s my second stop of the day EVERY day (after I check in at fdl, of course).

*waves*

Hugh, it is my personal belief Massoud could have been the leader of Afghanistan. I know he was Tajik, but he was beloved by the people, respected by all ethic factions and I can bet you that the King would have given him his blessing.

He was declared the National Hero of Afghanistan in 2002.

But, like many things in life, we will never know for sure. ;(

Valley Girl @ 146

Thanks NefLes. Much appreciated. I didn’t think I had an out-of-body experience. I remembered someone said it…

Well, the comments were flying thick and fast in that thread, and especially for anyone moderating it would have been hard to keep track.

Are you afraid to die? if you are, you’re afraid to live. If you’re afraid to live, you might as well die.

In the five years since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the Bush Administration has sold fear to keep themselves in power. These days, it’s about all they have left.

In the five years since those attacks, Osama bin Butthead and his minions have won every battle. They have a lot to celebrate today.

Keep Americans in fear? No problem, GW and HIS minions are doing a great job of that.

Kill more Anericans? Hey GW Bush and his minions attacked Iraq and we’ve more than DOUBLED the American death toll, and we’ve hardly had to life a finger to make that happen!

Damage the American economy? GW Bush did our dirty work for us. Fuel has doubled in price, the housing market is cooling faster than grandma’s pie on the window sill, they’re STILL sending jobs overseas and the American middle class is sinking, one by one, closer to poverty.

Yet, the GW Bush minions say THEY are winning the war on terror.

I’d say ol’ Osama bin Butthead is enjoying this day, celebrating with some virgins and a lovely Pakistani meal. Meanwhile, the hand-wringing continues, nothing constructive is done, the administration continues to sell fear and our freedoms, one by one, fall farther back in the rear-view mirror.

So I have one suggestion for all who read tis on this day – Live your lives without fear. Fly on an airliner. Take a walk across the Golden Gate Bridge. Have lunch at the top of the Space Needle or the Sears Tower. Take a Pentagon Tour. Go to a ball game.

But don’t cower in fear any more. If it’s your time, it’s your time. Live each day like it might be your last, and show not only Osama bin Butthead but GW Bush and his minions that you are NOT AFRAID, and that they can take all the fear they want to sell, and shove it up their ass. YOU are going to live your life with your head up, eyes open and let the chips fall where they will. You will no longer live in fear.

By the way, vote Democratic in two months. :-D

over and out, all. time for quiet contemplation……..

One-trick ponies:

A new ad set to be placed in key markets by a neoconservative think tank will tell Americans that their lives literally depend on their votes in the upcoming midterm election, RAW STORY has learned.

Over images of the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center, an off-camera narrator will tell voters in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri, Virginia and Vermont that “the world is a dangerous place. Islamic terrorists hate us for who we are and what we stand for.” […]

GPB:

Awsome! Just c/p’d and sent to every contact in my address book (props to you, of course!)

*waves back at Bong*

Niters, fahrender, sleep well.

You know, somebody else on my mind today is our pal Subway Serenade. Anybody have any late updates on him?

Don’t tread on me!

lotus @ 151

One-trick ponies:

A new ad set to be placed in key markets by a neoconservative think tank will tell Americans that their lives literally depend on their votes in the upcoming midterm election, RAW STORY has learned.

Over images of the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center, an off-camera narrator will tell voters in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri, Virginia and Vermont that “the world is a dangerous place. Islamic terrorists hate us for who we are and what we stand for.” […]

Sooner or later this will backfire with a majority of the populace. I’m hopeful it will backfire before November.

Taylor, just watched the video on which you worked, and your article here. This part in particular struck me:

Then long after the truth was known the Republican Party continued to back him, and now they want to walk away from their man because elections are near. I don’t think so.

This runs through my head, in thinking about all this:

Republicans took us into Iraq. We need to elect Democrats to help us get out.

Let’s say it until Election Day:

Republicans took us into Iraq and took the focus off of Bin Laden.

We need to elect Democrats to help get us out of Iraq — and get the focus back where it belongs.

fubar at swopa’s has two must see images that say it all about Clinton, Bush, 911 and Katrina.

http://www.needlenose.com/index.php

Lotus, those neocons sure don’t have many strings to their bows, do they? That pitch is losing its oomph, too, being as we’ve heard it so many times already.

If they think we’re that vulnerable to attacks by terrorists from other continents, why don’t they do real security and check containers and air freight, instead of doing security theater with airlines? A little money in the right areas would go so much further than the zillions brazillions they’ve been spending on Iraq and their buddies at Halliburton/KBR.

new thread

Valley Girl @ 132

EPU- This is Valley Girl and I made no such statement about the general views of New Yorkers. You have me confused with someone else. Moderators get enough shit around here already and last night wasn’t pretty, so this is catching me at a very bad moment. Believe me, I am biting my tongue.

EPU,

I think you hung part of one of my comments –and they should all be taken together as a whole– on Valley Girl.

She’s right, she had to deal with a load of crap last night. I already apologized for any negativity I added to the mix. I don’t know why it has to dragged out of a closed thread.

If you have a problem it is with me. However, I did not say that people who were not in NYC did not have a right to grief. What I said was that I was apalled by Grief tourists (and the souvenier sellers who feed them) who come to Ground Zero laughing and taking funny pictures as if it was an attration at Mall of America, instead of a graveyard.

I was complaining about people who show disrespect and, in doing so, exacerbate the grief of those of us who live with the constant remeinder and the loss of our loved ones.

i was also complaining about how Bushco turned this “national tragedy” meme into an excuse to turn anti terrorism funding into pork barrel spending in states that will never be targeted.

LHP – It was you, not Valley Girl.

fahrender @ 118

Lou Costello @
90

fahrender @ 77

Hugh @ 74

Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.

Makes sense to me. Bet Michael Moore could do a great job with that scenario.

Which ‘reality’ would you be referring too? Fox News/9ll Commission/Disney/ABC/GWB-WH? Stop me if I’m getting warm.

I understand how much it hurts: http://www.learningandteaching…..onance.htm

Inform yourself…you owe it to those we remember today. If the Jersey Girls can put up with the smear and swift-baoting by the likes of Coulter, we can at least listen to what they have to say.
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

lou costello:

i have every respect for the jersey girls and i am quite willing to believe that we don’t know what really happened. i continue to try and inform myself. what new information do you have that passes the smell test? i’ve lived through more than forty years of JFK conspiracy theories and i’m pretty sure i don’t have forty more to wonder about 9/11. i prefer to focus my energies on more tangible stuff like the elections in november. there is not a prayer in the world that we will ever know any more than we do now unless we get better people in nation office. such a goal may be as well not doable but it at least seems more doable than trying to peel the 9/11 onion now, in the unempowered posture in which we find ourselves. if we take the house in november maybe i’ll be more open to other ideas and possibilities……

Understanding the events leading up to, including and since 9ll is KEY to breaking the fear stranglehold the Rove/Coulter/Fox GOP have been using against USa since then. Crank it up as needed. And here we are 5 years later and they are just getting it started for Nov. They need it now more than ever. http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0911.html

Keep that “i’ve lived through more than forty years of JFK conspiracy theories… eye on the future and watch out for the next Gulf of Tonkin (need link?), ’cause they already used up “A New Pearl Harbor” (See PNAC). Use history to understand the present and help predict the futrure. People are creatures of habit and will do whatever works over and over. See elections 2000/’02/’04……they play for keeps and they cheat and then write the law to CYA and gain more power. 9ll is their linchpin. http://www.answers.com/linchpin&r=67

Don’t look at 9ll as an onion. Pick one thing that doesn’t make sense to you. Could be a still, a video or audio. A personal witness account or a physics professor (I can’t link all this because it’ll be auto-modded). Fo me it was the freefall speed of the towers and where is the plane that hit the Pentagon? If there was a crash…where’s the wreckage? There should be a PILE sitting next to that building. Use Occam’s Razor on that.

That’s an exceptionally cogent and well written post, Taylor. It echoes my thoughts completely. Thank you.

Evil Parallel Universe @ 161

LHP – It was you, not Valley Girl.

That’s what I just said.

it was me.

Evil Parallel Universe @ 10:30 am (#94) – Thanks for commenting. I’m not from NYC, but I grew up in Northeast Pennsylvania. There we had two big cities – NYC and Philadelphia. Many of my friends and some of my family work in NYC or nearby. As I’ve mentioned before, I went through my own bit of fear and dread that day, as did millions of people across the country. Our experience wasn’t as immediate as Steve’s, but we experienced our own little hells that day, and many days since. I think saying that one’s own 9/11 experience is the only valid one or the only one that matters shows an unwillingness to understand someone else’s point of view. It’s too bad, because I thought his descriptions of his own experiences were wonderful, almost poetic.

I’m sorry you haven’t felt much like commenting here. It does get a bit tiresome at times, if for no other reason than there are hundreds of comments to read through on many threads, many repititious because folks can’t see the other times someone mentioned the same thing. Still, there are good discussions here, and I miss them at times, like now, when I can’t pay much attention. Hope you come back soon.

You should be proud of the fact that you hate George W. Bush and that you are political, even on this day. The world would be a far better place if there were more Americans who had these two factors in their makeup.

LHP – I agree on the use of 9/11 by Chimpco. I wasn’t referencing anything you wrote in particular, other than that when you posted you wrote that no New Yorker’s had disagreed with Gilliard.

As New Yorker who was THERE, I strongly disagree with his comments in the thread.

I see a lot of news about the GOP attack ads — how are the Dems planning to counter? Like this, I hope, with appropriate images: “On September 11, 2001, American was viciously attacked and 3000 innocent Americans were murdered. Instead of bringing the criminals responsible to justice, George W. Bush used this national tragedy to launch a devastating war on a nation that had nothing to do with it. Because of George Bush’s mistakes, almost three thousand American soldiers have died and tens of thousands have been severely wounded in a war Bush doesn’t know how to end. America’s treasury is bleeding cash and our reputation in the world has never been worse. Bush used 9/11 to justify torture and spying on American citizens, something nobody in the history of this nation has ever done, even when fighting Adolph Hitler and Josef Stalin. The Republican party has rubber-stamped Bush in every disastrous decision of his disastrous presidency. If Republicans continue to control Congress, many more Americans will die because of their bungled wars and their astounding incompetence. Remember Hurricane Katrina? On election day, vote Democratic. Your life — or that of someone you love — may depend on it.”

I’m watching/listening the CNN feed from that day on Pipeline 4.

The OVERWHELMING sentiments avowed by Aaron Brown and every government offical he interviewed was that the evil-doers must be tracked down and prosecuted.

Five years on, we have not brought anybody accountable. The Dems MUST continue to stress this in every ad. They must stay on message.

I’m listening to the cnn pipeline of the day too. It does make it so clear that this Administration — and the Republican congress — have totally botched the response.

I miss Aaron Brown :(

me too Doc.
and when you think that cnn canned him but kept so many talentless airheaded bingo callers on the payroll,
makes me a little sick.

Lou Costello @
162

fahrender @ 118

Lou Costello @
90

fahrender @ 77

Hugh @ 74

Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.

Makes sense to me. Bet Michael Moore could do a great job with that scenario.

Which ‘reality’ would you be referring too? Fox News/9ll Commission/Disney/ABC/GWB-WH? Stop me if I’m getting warm.

I understand how much it hurts: http://www.learningandteaching…..onance.htm

Inform yourself…you owe it to those we remember today. If the Jersey Girls can put up with the smear and swift-baoting by the likes of Coulter, we can at least listen to what they have to say.
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

lou costello:

i have every respect for the jersey girls and i am quite willing to believe that we don’t know what really happened. i continue to try and inform myself. what new information do you have that passes the smell test? i’ve lived through more than forty years of JFK conspiracy theories and i’m pretty sure i don’t have forty more to wonder about 9/11. i prefer to focus my energies on more tangible stuff like the elections in november. there is not a prayer in the world that we will ever know any more than we do now unless we get better people in nation office. such a goal may be as well not doable but it at least seems more doable than trying to peel the 9/11 onion now, in the unempowered posture in which we find ourselves. if we take the house in november maybe i’ll be more open to other ideas and possibilities……

Understanding the events leading up to, including and since 9ll is KEY to breaking the fear stranglehold the Rove/Coulter/Fox GOP have been using against USa since then. Crank it up as needed. And here we are 5 years later and they are just getting it started for Nov. They need it now more than ever. http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0911.html

Keep that “i’ve lived through more than forty years of JFK conspiracy theories… eye on the future and watch out for the next Gulf of Tonkin (need link?), ’cause they already used up “A New Pearl Harbor” (See PNAC). Use history to understand the present and help predict the futrure. People are creatures of habit and will do whatever works over and over. See elections 2000/’02/’04……they play for keeps and they cheat and then write the law to CYA and gain more power. 9ll is their linchpin. http://www.answers.com/linchpin&r=67

Don’t look at 9ll as an onion. Pick one thing that doesn’t make sense to you. Could be a still, a video or audio. A personal witness account or a physics professor (I can’t link all this because it’ll be auto-modded). Fo me it was the freefall speed of the towers and where is the plane that hit the Pentagon? If there was a crash…where’s the wreckage? There should be a PILE sitting next to that building. Use Occam’s Razor on that.

you’re asking me to be a forensic investigator, if not an engineer, physicist or scientist, and i am of those. not only am i not trained for it, my mind simply doesn’t work that way. if what you have said is true, why isn’t there a hue and cry from the scientific/engineering community about this? i am capable of scepticism and i have no compunction or reluctance to believe our government could do something truly evil. they’re already doing it. and we know it. but the part that we know is the part that they’re doing so clumsily that it’s easy enough to ferret out. for me to believe what you seem to want me to believe you must show me something tangible, not something that isn’t there. the JFK conspiracy theories, at least some of them, are plausable. they don’t require the mission impossible technology or massive numbers of people in on the doing. if no plane crashed into the pentagon, what happened to the flight crew and passengers that died or disappeared? how many employees of the airline had to be in on their diappearance for no one to know about it? and so on. i’m focused on this election because it is soon and it is truly impossible to solve the problems of your preoccupations in the time that remains before november 8th. sorry, you’ll have to do better than that.

FWIW, I suspect that this
Rocket #69,

Bin Laden is not dead. He was kidnapped by the same Martians who bombed the Twin Towers. The planes were holographs and I’m getting really tired of conspiracy theories. The reality is bad enough.
was not intended to be taken seriously (Clue: ‘Martians’) except for the ‘tired fo conspiracy theories’ part. I’m tried of conspiracy theories on this, too. Especially I’m tired of theories cooked up by ministers, columnists, economists, and English professors (for examples).

fahrender @ 173

you’re asking me to be a forensic investigator, if not an engineer, physicist or scientist, and i am of those. not only am i not trained for it, my mind simply doesn’t work that way. if what you have said is true, why isn’t there a hue and cry from the scientific/engineering community about this? i am capable of scepticism and i have no compunction or reluctance to believe our government could do something truly evil. they’re already doing it. and we know it. but the part that we know is the part that they’re doing so clumsily that it’s easy enough to ferret out. for me to believe what you seem to want me to believe you must show me something tangible, not something that isn’t there. the JFK conspiracy theories, at least some of them, are plausable. they don’t require the mission impossible technology or massive numbers of people in on the doing. if no plane crashed into the pentagon, what happened to the flight crew and passengers that died or disappeared? how many employees of the airline had to be in on their diappearance for no one to know about it? and so on. i’m focused on this election because it is soon and it is truly impossible to solve the problems of your preoccupations in the time that remains before november 8th. sorry, you’ll have to do better than that.

I only asked that you find one thing that doesn’t make sense to you. I stated mine and you asked a different. If there is no wreckage the answer isn’t “then where is the flight crew and passengers”. Frankly that’s an easy question…they’re all with the wreckage which isn’t at the crash site.

If the towers ‘pancaked’ then you’d have a ’stack’ of floors. Not ‘pulverised’ dust. And it would take time for each floor to give, maybe a 1/2 second per floor, for lets say 80 floors, it should take over 40 seconds to completely collapse. Watch the video again…they take less then half that. PLUS, structrual steel columns do not pancake and if they buckled the building would have tipped over. They were cut in handy portable pieces: http://thumbsnap.com/v/qyXTftwL.jpg Controlled demolition by the best equipped in the world. Or we can talk about WTC7.

If the towers ‘pancaked’ then you’d have a ’stack’ of floors. Not ‘pulverised’ dust. And it would take time for each floor to give, maybe a 1/2 second per floor, for lets say 80 floors, it should take over 40 seconds to completely collapse. Watch the video again…they take less then half that. PLUS, structrual steel columns do not pancake and if they buckled the building would have tipped over.

Nonsense. Once the first couple of floors gave way, the tops of the towers were essentially in free fall. Nothing short of miles of rock could stop such a thing, which is what finally did stop it.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/facts…..8_2006.htm

Scroll down to question 6.

Controlled demolition by the best equipped in the world. Or we can talk about WTC7.

Excuse my french, but you don’t know shit about controlled demolitions. Please learn something before giving us the benefit of your wisdom again, particularly on this day.

Here’s a good place to start:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc__demolition_.html

Cujo359 @ 176 – believe what you want…

see you when your head is out of the sand:
http://thumbsnap.com/v/qyXTftwL.jpg

But if you want in…

where’s the wreckage and body parts at the Pentagon? (since I seem to have lost fahrender)
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

Oh yeah you better remember…part 2 of the ‘truth’ is on tonight. Don’t forget to Tivo ABC.

Lou Costello @ 3:04 pm (#177)

Cujo359 @ 176 – believe what you want…

see you when your head is out of the sand:

Oh, gosh, now that you’ve said my head was in the sand, I’m totally convinced of my folly.

where’s the wreckage and body parts at the Pentagon? (since I seem to have lost fahrender)

http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html

That, by the way, was from one of the sites I’d already linked to. Your lack of curiosity on this subject is breathtaking for someone who feels the need to lecture folks about how stupid and oblivious they are.

Speaking of which …

Oh yeah you better remember…part 2 of the ‘truth’ is on tonight. Don’t forget to Tivo ABC.

Sure you haven’t taken enough opportunity to use ad hominem?

In fact, your arguments are the same ones the right wing jackasses use to explain why we’re wrong about Iraq or the War On Terra or whatever they’re sure we should be obsessed with. Anyone who decides to check into things himself and realizes you don’t have a leg to stand on is stupid, deluded, doesn’t realize the true danger, etc. I’ve provided links for you to look at. You could go to the main pages of those links and answer just about all your questions. You could check out the links pages at those sites and find many more places that would answer your concerns. Instead, you engage in the sort of rhetorical devices cranks use when they don’t have any real arguments.

As for the picture, it has an interesting caption: Views: 289 Date: July 30, 2006.

I don’t intend or desire to make political hay on our nation’s open wound

On the contrary, that wound makes it imperative that you/we raise hell about the politics of 9/11 and the War on Terror. We’ve let them redefine ‘political’ as a perjorative; it’s actually the process by which democracies govern themselves. People take positions, and advocate policies, and pass judgement on how their leaders are doing.

Without that kind of debate, we’re supine and utterly powerless.

All but a very small handful of Democrats in Congress are also responsible for the tragedy that has continued in Afghanistan. Who do you know amongst the Dems who has stood and spoken against this appalling negligence? The reality, it seems, is that very few in this country give a fuck about anything but this country. We were attacked; we bomb from 50,000 feet; we leave. The Dems were, and are, just as filled with the same specious rightiousness as the folks across the aisle. They also see America as THE MOST among countries, always fair and just. In no way is any progress going to be made in tarring only the fools in power at the moment. They only have the room for manouvering that we grant them through our indifference. The Dems have been, with apallingly few exceptions, cowards for not standing up to the sorcerer’s apprentices currently running the Executive branch; and please, not controlling Congressional committees does not deprive one of one’s voice. They have been, to use an analogy from a time currently in vogue in GOP circles, like the people who saw their Jewish neighbors taken away and said nothing because it might compromise their own safety. But then, maybe I’m aiding the enemy by intimating shortcomings of my own people. Afghanistan and Iraq are two wars that were overwhelmingly supported by all but very few politicians and citizens in this country, and until very recently there was little or no criticism as to how they were and are still waged. Politicians worry about the next election cycle; citizens worry only about the price of gas. Where is the gushing over blue thumbs; little girls going to school? Where were the Dems who should have and still could call bullshit on this kind of sanctimonious patting ourselves on the back? Where are the Dems showing what we have actually wrought in these two countries? No, Taylor, nothing will change if we only change the asses that warm the seats of power. We need to change, and that’s not about to happen. We like our A/C too much. We don’t do commitment; we don’t do protracted struggle–it’s inconvenient.

Greetings Taylor Marsh,
Things are kinda quiet here today at FDL and on the blogosphere in general, and understandably so, as people try to make sense of what happened on 9/11 and in the 5 years that have passed. Sometimes we may feel overwhelmed by all the crap that has piled up and feel a greater sense of distress with each new revelation of Bush’s latest atrocity. Tomorrow is another day however, and we will go to work, raise our kids, love one another and continue to work to right the wrongs of this administration.

“Osama bin Laden is still alive. There’s only one reason why. George W. Bush put Saddam Hussein above getting our greatest enemy, and avenging the deaths of those innocent souls killed on 9/11. There’s nothing else left to say.”

Pardon me for pointing out that those responsible for causing 9/11 are the architects of Ammurrkan Foreign (and domestic) Policy. When do we get to go after them?

Lou Costello @
175

fahrender @ 173

you’re asking me to be a forensic investigator, if not an engineer, physicist or scientist, and i am of those. not only am i not trained for it, my mind simply doesn’t work that way. if what you have said is true, why isn’t there a hue and cry from the scientific/engineering community about this? i am capable of scepticism and i have no compunction or reluctance to believe our government could do something truly evil. they’re already doing it. and we know it. but the part that we know is the part that they’re doing so clumsily that it’s easy enough to ferret out. for me to believe what you seem to want me to believe you must show me something tangible, not something that isn’t there. the JFK conspiracy theories, at least some of them, are plausable. they don’t require the mission impossible technology or massive numbers of people in on the doing. if no plane crashed into the pentagon, what happened to the flight crew and passengers that died or disappeared? how many employees of the airline had to be in on their diappearance for no one to know about it? and so on. i’m focused on this election because it is soon and it is truly impossible to solve the problems of your preoccupations in the time that remains before november 8th. sorry, you’ll have to do better than that.

I only asked that you find one thing that doesn’t make sense to you. I stated mine and you asked a different. If there is no wreckage the answer isn’t “then where is the flight crew and passengers”. Frankly that’s an easy question…they’re all with the wreckage which isn’t at the crash site.

If the towers ‘pancaked’ then you’d have a ’stack’ of floors. Not ‘pulverised’ dust. And it would take time for each floor to give, maybe a 1/2 second per floor, for lets say 80 floors, it should take over 40 seconds to completely collapse. Watch the video again…they take less then half that. PLUS, structrual steel columns do not pancake and if they buckled the building would have tipped over. They were cut in handy portable pieces: http://thumbsnap.com/v/qyXTftwL.jpg Controlled demolition by the best equipped in the world. Or we can talk about WTC7.

you didn’t lose me, bud abbott, i mean lou, i went on to more important things…..

and so where are the wreckage, flight crew and passengers? maybe somewhere on the back forty at Camp David?

and by the way, i find things every day that don’t make sense to me. wouldn’t get anything done if i stopped to investigate even .0001% of them.

let me know when you’ve got it all sorted out. let’s see, possibly it was a turf battle between rumsfailed and deadeye. rummy wouldn’t share, so deadeye went after him with an iranian missile chalabi slipped him when nobody was looking. and rummy hasn’t spoken to him since….

fahrender @ 184

and by the way, i find things every day that don’t make sense to me. wouldn’t get anything done if i stopped to investigate even .0001% of them.

let me know when you’ve got it all sorted out. let’s see, possibly it was a turf battle between rumsfailed and deadeye. rummy wouldn’t share, so deadeye went after him with an iranian missile chalabi slipped him when nobody was looking. and rummy hasn’t spoken to him since….

OK fahrender…if you can’t find even one thing about the events of that day that doesn’t seem right and you’re only into elections, then you must know Brad Blog and his fight against voter fraud and election irregularities. Check out his 9ll coverage.
http://www.bradblog.com/?cat=66
(the 1st post is fluffy so scroll and check the whole category)

Brad and his posters know the whole 9ll event was the biggest fraud and we can’t break the GOP fear grip until we face the fact that the events of that day was just a cover for the Darth/Rummy/PNAC Coup d’etat!

Cujo359 @ 178 – September 11th, 2006 at 4:02 pm

I’m working on a reply and will get back here ASAP, but you should look at the BradBlog thread for some enlighting information.

I did fiind it interesting that most of the mythbuster sites you link and others I’ve already researched, all seem to reference the Popular Mechanics article (MAJOR ad revenue from the US-DOD/Military-Industrial-Complex profitteers and owned by Hearst)
http://911lies.org/popular_mec…..itors.html
…written by Michael Chertoff’s (DHS) cousin. Just an observation. *wink

Lou Costello @
185

fahrender @ 184

and by the way, i find things every day that don’t make sense to me. wouldn’t get anything done if i stopped to investigate even .0001% of them.

let me know when you’ve got it all sorted out. let’s see, possibly it was a turf battle between rumsfailed and deadeye. rummy wouldn’t share, so deadeye went after him with an iranian missile chalabi slipped him when nobody was looking. and rummy hasn’t spoken to him since….

OK fahrender…if you can’t find even one thing about the events of that day that doesn’t seem right and you’re only into elections, then you must know Brad Blog and his fight against voter fraud and election irregularities. Check out his 9ll coverage.
http://www.bradblog.com/?cat=66
(the 1st post is fluffy so scroll and check the whole category)

Brad and his posters know the whole 9ll event was the biggest fraud and we can’t break the GOP fear grip until we face the fact that the events of that day was just a cover for the Darth/Rummy/PNAC Coup d’etat!

Cujo359 @ 178 – September 11th, 2006 at 4:02 pm

I’m working on a reply and will get back here ASAP, but you should look at the BradBlog thread for some enlighting information.

I did fiind it interesting that most of the mythbuster sites you link and others I’ve already researched, all seem to reference the Popular Mechanics article (MAJOR ad revenue from the US-DOD/Military-Industrial-Complex profitteers and owned by Hearst)
http://911lies.org/popular_mec…..itors.html
…written by Michael Chertoff’s (DHS) cousin. Just an observation. *wink

now you’re confusing me with someone else. you’ve got to stop multi tasking. i don’t know how to do links……….