
I am a lifelong New Yorker.
I went to NYU, worked in New Jersey, spent more hours in the shadows of the World Trade Center than I care to remember. You could look down LaGuardia Place and see the twin towers, yes, people called them that all the time. They imposed themselves over the lower end of the city, outsized in a way the Empire State Building isn’t. It wasn’t a pretty building, but like some women who shine when made up and dressed to the nines, when you saw them from the New Jersey side at sunset, they could not have been prettier.
I used to eat there when I passed by there. There was a deli in the basement, not too overpriced, a Borders and a Krispy Kreme on the outside and on warm spring and summer days, a farmers market with fresh strawberries from upstate farms. The backside of Trinity Church faced it, as did a row of shops.
On the labor day weekend before 9/11, my partner Jen, and I, had a little picnic under the Brooklyn Bridge, grilling peaches.
You can’t do that now.
That Tuesday was a beautiful day, clear, cloudless, in the 70’s. I was up arouind 8:30, working at home, as I have done for most of my writing life. I had Howard Stern on and I heard that a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center I turned on the TV and saw one of the towers on fire. I knew instantly that Osama Bin Laden had done it. No doubt, no question. Al Qaeda had come back. Then they hit the second tower.
I had been in those buildings, on the 105th floor, in fact, and the view had been beautiful.
Which is why conspiracy theories upset me. The inside of those buildings had a large lobby open stories high, the floors were compact, though. No one set any explosives there unless they had months to do so.
An hour later, the buildings collapsed. I can’t say I was surprised. But the dust was astounding. I’d seen controlled explosions on TV, but it was like the breath left a dying man. The towers were down.
By that time I had called my mother and we were frantically searching for people. My cousin walked out of WTC7, which later collpased, north, with her kids and got home. My friends managed to spend the night in Jersey with my best friend. They just showed up having used the ferry to escape.
I went to the store in the afternoon, masses of people were walking home, like refugees. That happened all over the city. However, I saw an F-15 flying over my head, towards Central Park at 2000 feet. In an irony, my cousin’s husband, who is an F-15 mechanic, was called to his base earlier in that day, and it was probably one of the jets from his squadron.
By then, the smell was everywhere, the smell of burning paper and flesh and it didn’t go away for days. Jen woke up late, and by the time she got up, ashes were filling her Brooklyn Heights apartment.
When people get upset that New Yorkers don’t share their experiences, and this is just a fraction of what I remember and the only reason I’m writing about it is that I don’t want to be asked about it. Here it is.
But I will say this: my starkest memories of 9/11 are the year of funerals. Day after day, some family buried someone and it made the papers.
I hate the tourists who come to rubberneck at the hole. I hate them and wish they would go away. When I went down there one time, I saw people selling pictures of the towers on fire.
You know, people fell from them on fire. Alive.
The people rebroadcasting their 9/11 broadcasts are no better than vermin. Matt Lauer should be placed on a glue trap in the sun.
This doesn’t belong to America. It isn’t some grand national cause. It is a tragedy some get to live with forever. You can remember the dead, but because you became scared of brown people or of someone blowing up your mall or of airplanes, you can share in it. You cannot and if you were smart, you wouldn’t want to. No one should want to carry the burdens of another because they feel they should.
Bush used 9/11 to prove himself a man and, as he had his entire life, failed miserably, killing thousands in the process. The dead of 9/11 deserved justice, not torture and a pointless, losing war in Iraq. Not Rudy Giuliani making money off the one good day in his miserable life. They have gotten so much less than they deserved, with ABC piling on top.
So I’ll do what I do every year at this time, avoid anything to do with this and hope it ends soon.
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Hey Steve!
It’s 8:00 on the east coast . . . is ABC following through and airing their obscenity?
fitz
yup.
A moment of silence please.
Is anyone volunteering to live blog this fiasco.
It is the right-wing Republican media circus of grief mongering a la Terri Schiavo times 3,000.
It is sickening and sad and Tom Kean is a fraud.
Oh yeah, F*ck Mickey Mouse and the Mickey Mouse Presidency of George W. Bush.
-GSD
When you’re writing is strong and emotional, you’re John Steinbeck.
Good job.
the Simpsons is playing on Fox for light, escapist fare …
Thank you for writing about this, Steve. Yes, Oregondave, the odious show is on the air.
Here is a bio of another of the Disney execs (assuming he is still there). http://corporate.disney.go.com…..adden.html
Matt Stoller has been researching same and found another. http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/9/10/22035/2310
This Preston Padden, EVP for Gov Rel, is an alumnus of Newscorp and Fox. When you stock your front office with RW ideologues your company is no longer making decisions based on reasonable principles of either business or decency.
—
Here’s something you can watch instead of…
America Freedom to Fascism – http://www.truthstream.org/?cat=212
*ilson46201 @
9
I’m glad Sunday Night Football is on NBC now, so I don’t have to feel guilty about watching the Manning Bowl…
Amen.
A very good piece indeed, Steve.
Thanks, Steve. Please don’t be too hard on the “tourists.” My husband and I visited friends in Brooklyn in 2002, and we felt compelled to bring our children to visit “the hole,” not out of morbid curiousity but as a pilgrimage, of sorts, to pay our respects as fellow Americans to those who lost their lives on that awful day. A local girl from San Jose CA, where we live, was on one of the planes, and we were drawn to the site to honor her memory. I’m sorry, sorry for all of us.
I’m going to disagree on this one point, for one reason. The revisionist history of 9/11 began — what, three days later? — with Bush on a pile of rubble one-linering through a bullhorn. Time and rhetoric has compressed that three-day gap so that it’s perceived as hours.
New Yorkers don’t need to be reminded of that morning, or the days that followed when they were basically on their own. I hate to my gut that they are made to go through this on a national level, their grief appropriated.
Out in yellow-ribbon-Saddam-did-it-land, though, I think people need to see those unvarnished, unscripted hours and remember how lonely it felt.
9-11 was unspeakable in it’s horror. Now, just imagine what a nuclear war would look like. We need a change of direction in the Middle East.
Oh, great. Now the fucking *football* broadcast is showing Ground Zero and Rudy. Sigh.
Bush says that wants peace, yet he uses violence to acheive it – how is the loss that his actions create for other people (you know, brown people) because their loved one was on the wrong end of a US bomb or bullet any different than our loss on 9/11? murder is as murder does…
Y’all aren’t going to like this – but I’m not commemorating 9-11 in any way.
I am so utterly disgusted with what the US has become in the ensuing five years, that I’m seriously considering trying to emigrate. Australia or New Zealand. Some neocon would say “YOU HATE AMERICA!”
I’d say “you’re right.”
The only thing 9-11 makes me feel is anger and hate. Anger that the Republicans could orchestrate such an atrocity. Hate for every single American who ever voted for a republican. The very mention of 9-11 makes me feel agreat desire to get seriously ghetto on the first republican I can find.
Finally, I am disgusted by “progressives” who are afraid to fight as dirty as our enemies, and by that I mean republicans. They will retain congress this year, and they will retain the white house in 2008, because of the knee-jerk action of laying down like dogs when some repuke says “YOU’RE A LIBERAL!” They’ll swift-boat us again, and it’ll be another 20 years of this shit and by then, it’ll be time for me to head off to the great band (or the rainbow bridge to pick up my kit kits).
And the thing is, I’m not totally a liberal. I believe we need to SEAL the border for at least five years. No one is allowed in on anything but a tourist visa. I’m against any “path to citizenship” or amnesty. I’m against the H1B and other “guest worker” programs.
But the war overshadows everyting. And it’s going to go on until at least 2016, because progressives refuse to “stoop to their level.”
We HAVE to stoop to their level, or we will lose. This is one dirty fight. Winning has to come first. We can raise the level of discourse once we win, but we HAVE TO WIN. We have to do a goddam Dresden on the repukes, or we will lose. This year, WINNING ISN’T EVERYTHING, IT’S THE ONLY THING!
That’s what 9-11 evokes in me.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 17
I’m pretty sure the Republicans would tell you that a nuclear war *over there* would look just awesome.
thank you steve.
Just got back from the Pats game. Mediocre playing, but they came away with a victory. Nice minute of silence at the beginning for victims. Then there was a fly over – made me sick in so many ways.
SteveG knows. Peace bro.
Richmond @ 6
It’s pretty damn boring so far.
Not live-blogging, exactly, but I wanted to see how the thing starts, and what the disclaimer was like.
Useless, I’d say. Especially since it was followed by a quote about the independence of the Commission.
What we feared is already happening. That is, that most people who see this are going to form the impression that this IS what happened, how it happened.
Exhibit A – the “critic’s corner” in my local (San Antonio Express-News) newspaper’s Sunday tv magazine.
Headline: “Richly detailed, ‘Path to 9/11 looks beyond the terror.”
With sinking heart, I read the downright glowing review by Jeanne Jakle, the tv columnist. Here’s the kicker, half-way through:
There are shocking revelations, such as one instance when American operatives are thwarted in a mission to capture an influential rebel tied to the first trade center bombing, Osama Bin Laden. At the last minute, the Clinton administration does not give the go-ahead, and extremely frustrated operatives are forced to let “the tall one” remain free to do more deadly damage.
I haven’t emailed her yet – I’m too upset. It’s possible she learned that this was fake after putting this mag to bed, as I’m sure it was more than a week ago. But if she bought it, and wrote it (it’s in print, it must be true) so will lots of ordinary folks who watch tv but don’t follow blogs or politics.
Here we go.
There are shocking rev
Thank you, Steve, from a fellow New Yorker.
As RMJ of Adventus asked over at Eschaton, “why exactly are we marking the fifth anniversary of this tragedy? Did we celebrate the fifth anniversary of Pearl Harbor?”
Hi Steve,
I was a New Yorker myself, from 1983ish to 12/2005. Seven friends I used to work with at another brokerage firm were at Cantor Fitzgerald that morning. No one from up there made it out alive.
Cheney and company have used their deaths for their own horrible purposes ever since. For that, they should be damned. And the same goes for the Mouse that Whored.
DC affiliate (WJLA) distances itself from Path to 9/11
watertiger @ 26
By then, we had rid the world of the aggressors from that tragic day – this time, not so much…heckuva job, bushie!
Bush used 9/11 to prove himself a man and, as he had his entire life, failed miserably
That about sums it up, IMHO. Thanks for writing this.
Similar to the hawker’s photos of burning buildings at the 9/11 hole, I dislike the photos found at FDL and elsewhere of The Towers burning combined with Mickey Mouse, Karl Rove, etc. Thanks, Steve, also for pointing out the sacredness of the images of the event.
Since when are you and expert on demolition?
The conventional “wisdom” is a conspiracy theory… largely unsupported by evidence. There are simply too many anonolies to accept THAT theory so we need to look further and see which conspiracy theory does apply.
Look up the story of the USS Liberty in 1967 and you might revise your thinking about conspiracies.
op99
It’s pretty damn boring so far.
Thanks op90. Hope it is consistent in that way!
On the night of 11 Sept ‘05 a friend and I went down to the outdoor ampitheater in Robert Wagner Park, in Battery Park City where the River-to-River Festival had their usual weekly salsa night — great band, full crowd lots of people up dancing. For non-New Yorkers, this is only a few short blocks from where the towers stood.
At one point between songs, the bandleader spoke of the events of a year ago, the memory of friends and a band member who had died, and there was a moment of silence. Then, the music started up, the feet flew, the asses shook, the beer flowed and the dance went on.
I remember saying to my friend, who was visiting from Paris, that if only the nation going through this public media orgy of grief, saw us New Yorkers — black, white, latin, asian, working class to rich, gay and straight, all of whom lived through those horrible days, having a good time & dancing the night away, they would be beyond appalled.
But in my mind it was the perfect way to pass that beautiful September evening, with the Hudson flowing back and forth in the background, as it has for the almost 4 centuries this crazy, tragic, energetic mongrel city has graced these shores.
9/11 was not a Bushie conspiracy. How do I know?
It worked.
OT –
I note that Valerie Wilson has hired a constitutional expert as one of her advisors in connection with her civil suit, Erwin Chemerinsky. I understand that he is regarded by many as one of the foremost constitutional scholars in the country.
Well, I was just reading up on Hugh Hewitt because I’ve never listened to his show. Wickipedia indicates that Erwin Chemerinsky is a frequent guest on Hugh’s radio show.
Which leads me to a question – should Valerie Wilson really trust someone who associates himself with Hewitt to advise her on her case, regardless of his legal talent and expertise?
I honestly don’t know much more about Chemerinsky, but given the way that Hugh Hewitt works, I wouldn’t be surprised if he would try to exploit any connection he had to either gather inside information about Valerie Wilson’s legal strategy or somehow undercut her case. Chemerinsky might be just the kind of person Hewitt would use to achieve this goal.
All of the above is speculation, but when one sees this sort of a connection between evil right-wing hack and the legal team for Valerie Wilson, certain red flags are raised. I look forward to hearing the thoughts of FDL’ers on this. Thanks.
I believe they are live blogging it over at Americablog. Am going to go and finish up my daughter’s 11th birthday. Thanks for the great post Steve. Peaceful dreams to all.
Yeah Steve, I hear ya. I feel pretty much the same way about my own hometown of New Orleans.
Amen, brother Steve.
“Another terrorism speech by the president is sort of like reruns of Seinfeld. It’s on every night and we’ve memorized most of the lines.”
–Congressional Quarterly’s Craig Crawford on Countdown
(h/t DailyKos’ Bill in Portland Maine)
Ted Koppel’s show is pretty darn good, imho. The Price of Security on Discovery.
wrt to the post, this got me:
Thank you for this post, Steve. I have long abhorred the endless memorialization and the use of this tragedy by the media and the “government”.
Richmond @
6
IND 3 ~ NYG 0 1st half, 6:07 left.
The FBI flunky characters are blaming the lack of the ability to spy domestically on the Feb 1993 WTC bombing.
moeman @ 42
NYG third-down D just positively suckawful.
op99 @ 43
Um.
Is there any explanation for this?
Well said, Steve –
When I was in High School (1967) I bought a set of LIFE Magazines from 1937 to 1945 — specifically, to study the change in American attitudes before and after Pearl Harbor.
The shock and fear engendered by December 7th 1941 pales in comparison to 9/11 — by the Spring of 1942, Americans had put the fear behind them, and with grim determination had set about the task of destroying the Japanese and Nazi war machines.
The shock of 9/11 still reverberates in America — but what is most despicable is the way Bush and Republicans exploited the tragedy for partisan gain.
This GOP Den of Thieves is lower than rattlesnake’s belly in Death Valley.
Eli @ 44
sure! it bolsters Bushs criminal domestic spying programs!
Vote for the GOP or you die !
I agree with you Steve. I’m a lifelong New Yorker and, despite the fact that it’s been 5 years, the pain is just as raw as if the attack was yesterday. I lost several friends that day and must have been to a dozen funerals. I can’t participate in any of this memorial crap, it just seems false to me. I had to run to Staples today to pick up some last minute school supplies for my son and there was some type of service at the firehouse on 8th. I didn’t line up with all the gawkers to stare at whoever was there but just ducked between the hordes to pick up the notebooks I needed. God, I can’t wait until it is over but I’ll bet they drag it out until the election.
Eli @ 21
Yes. But a nuclear war in the Mideast might spread. Can anyone assure us, here in the U.S., that Russia and China, countries which do not love us, will stay on the sidelines. And what of India and Pakistan? Nuclear powers, both. And ‘dirty bombs’ etc. smuggled, in such turmoil and tumult. Some might be willing to take a chance, and assume advantage, and choose to attack America with atomic weapons, while the United States is preoccupied and perhaps weakened by nuclear conflagration in the Middle East. One little teensy-weensy neutron triggered weapon unleashed on say Chicago, L.A., New York or for that matter on any U.S. city could very well make 9/11 look like a picnic. Perish the thought.
moeman @ 41
… and moeman scores on the end-around!
I live about a block outside of DC and while my city was in chaos, I can’t imagine being in the chaos of NYC that day. That day is still fresh and raw for me. I knew someone in one of the NYC planes. I knew people in the Pentagon. I can’t believe that the man who was behind all of this is no longer a primary concern of Bush. I CANNOT believe that someone who attacked our country could slide off the President’s “radar”. This is unexcuseable.
I was driving home tonight listening to an NPR show on 9/11 in which they were playing first hand accounts of that day, from survivors and from the families of people who were lost. They played two answering machine messages a man on one of the planes left for his wife. I managed to park the car, but had to sit there crying for a while before I could go on.
Bin Laden should have been our country’s FIRST priority for the last five years. Instead, Bush squandered opportunities he was offered to coordinate and lead through diplomacy nations worldwide. He diverted resources from the people going after bin Laden in order to pursue a neo-con half baked fantasy. Here we are now, with bin Laden still doing what he wants with an enhanced credibility, with Iraq having gone from the fat into the fire, and America-friendly elected officials in other countries being chased out of office.
Heck of a job, Bushie.
(yeah, don’t get me started on Katrina)
Yes. But a nuclear war in the Mideast might spread. Can anyone assure us, here in the U.S., that Russia and China, countries which do not love us, will stay on the sidelines. And what of India and Pakistan? Nuclear powers, both. And ‘dirty bombs’ etc. smuggled, in such turmoil and tumult. Some might be willing to take a chance, and assume advantage, and choose to attack America with atomic weapons, while the United States is preoccupied and perhaps weakened by nuclear conflagration in the Middle East. One little teensy-weensy neutron triggered weapon unleashed on say Chicago, L.A., New York or for that matter on any U.S. city could very well make 9/11 look like a picnic. Perish the thought.
I don’t think anyone would be crazy enough to launch on us. They would be signing their own death warrant.
Moeman: LOL – a Giants fan?
i saw somewhere the program would be interrupted to carry a speech from Bush????
and Steve, did you mean to say that “you can’t share in it”, in that next to the last paragraph?
~heartfelt thanks for your thoughts tonight.
I don’t think anyone would be crazy enough to launch on us. They would be signing their own death warrant.
Stateless, stealthy actors targetting an American city could cause our leaders to bring a rain of terror down on civilians somewhere, for we would have to retaliate and our leaders would not care if they aimed correctly.
new abc poll shows GW Clusterfuck at 42% approval.
I wonder what kind of celebration bin Laden is enjoying tonight, free to roam the harsh hills of the Afghan-Paki border, now fully insulated by our ally who will not act against his protectors….
TeddySanFran @ 55
Notice I said “launch”…
Richmond @ 52
Nope, Steelers since the mid-70s.
(Also, fcuk the fcuking Cowboys!)
rwcole @ 55
pre-Mouse bounce?
Thanks, Steve. That Dubya and his jackals, along with ghouls like Rudy, celebrate this tragedy like the best thing that ever happened is an obscenity.
Swopa @ 61
Well, for them it was.
Well spoken.
I have video of that day, from the second impact on, that I’ve never been able to watch. My cousin, a photographer, was close enough to see jumpers. She has never developed most of the film from that day.
And I remember the smell of burning plastic and death for weeks.
At 8:47 EDT, watching the ABC “Spinal Tap” version of 9/11, the thing that disappoints me the most is the lame production. A friend of mine was a producer on the first anniversary piece on ABC. What’s happened since then?
Does anyone think that a politically slanted, NY Undercover/CIS version of that tragic day is even remotely acceptable?
Steve,
Great post. I still tense up when I hear sirens, waiting, holding my breathe to see if it will last like it did that morning. It’s not a damn holiday.
rwcole @ 55
I feel like barfing. And some right winger noted on another site (quoted somewhere I can’t remember) that there are now two states (key ones) where it is against the law to count the actual ballots if there is a re-vote. I am down.
Eli @ 51
I would have to RESPECTFULLY proffer that we are not in tune on your conclusion. History is rife with “crazy” rulers, bent on doing the crazy.
oh, well, launch, that’s what our incredibly effective MIssile Defense Shield Condom-thingy is to protect us from, right?
I would have to RESPECTFULLY proffer that we are not in tune on your conclusion. History is rife with “crazy” rulers, bent on doing the crazy.
I can’t think of any rulers crazy enough to sacrifice their entire country. Not even Kim Jong Il.
oh, well, launch, that’s what our incredibly effective MIssile Defense Shield Condom-thingy is to protect us from, right?
Yeah, it protects us against what no-one would be stupid or crazy enough to try in the first place. I wonder how much port security all that wasted money would buy…
I live in Manhattan.
We don’t scare easily here and we see right through Bush’s lies.
Why don’t more Democrats point out that Manhattan, the city that was struck on 9/11 and which remains most at risk, voted overwhelmingly against Bush in 2004?
Why should the rest of the country fall for Bush’s fearmongering when New Yorkers – who have the most to fear – have rejected Bush at the ballot box since 9/11?
Steve:
You and others who lived it there won’t forget it, but most of you have manged to maintain a perspective that we admire and hope we could emulate if it happened to us (which it won’t because we live in less visible and attractive targets).
This is life. As far as this manufactured terrorism crap is concerned, those that have fallen prey to the hucksters deserve nothing but scorn and pity.
No wonder the rest of the world is laughing at us.
and i also believe, like many others, that the depth of the heartache and shock and the outpouring of empathy & sympathy from people all over the world – provided a moment of universal consciousness which could have been utilized to realistically address thorny issues facing civilization today – but the moment was squandered and breathtakingly trashed by this ignorant and pathetic administration. their betrayel of humananity is beyond my ability to express.
brkily @ 71
BushCo answered the wrong wakeup call.
Thank you Steve. I’m commemorating 9/11 by feeling sad. And staying away from TV and newspapers.
*xyz @ 68
I think Bush got 16% in NYC 10% in manhattan (Staten Island is just unexplainable).
The networks shifted production and funding from the news department to the entertainment division. After all, that’s what America does best.
Eli @ 67
Again, I find I must intone we are not in tune. I, for one can readily think of one ruler “crazy” enough to start Armageddon. Our very own George W. Bush.
I hate the tourists who come to rubberneck at the hole. I hate them and wish they would go away.
I was a tourist in N.Y. a couple of years ago with my daughter, and we went to “rubberneck at the hole”.
You can hate me as much as you want. But you don’t own the “hole”.
Which is why conspiracy theories upset me.
Steve you have to learn to QUESTION EVERYTHING…especially the “Official (Conspiracy theory) Story”. If you don’t then you deserve that crap they are showing on ABC/Disney.
Our gov’t can and will do whatever it takes to get an preserve power.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmp…..eb434292_2
Learn from history.
http://www.takeoverworld.info/false-flag.html
UptownNYChick @ 73
Thanks for the numbers – much appreciated. What do you think about having an FDL get-together for residents of NYC? I’m chomping at the bit.
IND 6 ~ NYG 0
Eli, with all due respect, I do fear the use of nukes– we have done it before and I don’t trust us not to use them again. We are basically cornered and that is not a good position for the rest of the world. I take no comfort in our “might” anymore.
peace.
moeman @ 79
YAY @ Manning !
*xyz @ 78
I would love that.
angie @ 81
I never said I wasn’t afraid of nukes. I just don’t think anyone would launch any at us.
Us launching them on someone else, absolutely. Someone sneaking one into the US in a suitcase or cargo container, absolutely.
semi-OT – In Conflict Between Osama and Saddam, Bush Policy Aided Osama’s Side
OT but a great read can be had at Whiskey Bar;
‘Dog Bites Man’
http://billmon.org/
PT911 – “Lucky Ramzi Yousef’s laptop was recovered in Phillipines, we couldn’t have looked at it in the US.”
One of the most delicious things Disney ever pulled was to jerk around the late Leonard Bernstein for years with promises they were developing and greenlighting the then next Fantasia film with him.
Eventually they went with someone who was a splendid artist… with a most Disney appropriate reputation as a pederast.
So what I am doing here in Manhattan is listening to Bernstein’s great, angry, grieving 3rd Symphony, “Kaddish”.
May Cyrus get a cancer virus soon.His lies ask for God to send him his own internal 9/11.I hope that Rudy and Christine find their lungs heavy with something worse their own lies.
And Duhya?
I leave him to his bff God… that will be a very interesting first meeting, won’t it?
[Mod Note]: Last line removed for your protection.
Bush seems awfully confident about the elections. i’m with those who are very suspicious about getting the votes fairly counted. i am not hopeful. i think there should be a serious backup plan for a total national strike – if fraud is suspected.
Riesz Fischer @ 76
We all lived through this together. It is a part of your soul and it is a part of mine.
Thanks, Steve, on so many levels. I think those of you who are New Yorkers lived this in a way that makes “re-living” it both redundant and unnecessary. You won’t ever forget the details of that day, and neither will anyone else, no matter where they were. I’m 53 years old, and I can still remember sitting in my 5th grade class the day JFK was shot. I remember the bus ride home, everything: I was 10.
I will be thinking of those who lost loved ones and friends, and those who by extension have lost loved ones and friends in a war that didn’t need to be fought. I will think about the lost liberties and freedoms. I will think about the battle yet to be won, but now, I think finally fully engaged – the one to save this country.
I would have to say that I am less afraid of Osama than I am of the evil and sickness that lies at the heart of this administration. No, I do not love Osama, nor do I hate America. I love my country, in fact, and am heartsick at what George and Dick and Alberto and Don and the rest of them have done to it.
I’ve had enough.
*xyz @ 68
xyz, i suspect them of diddling with the ballot boxes. Everyone I know voted Dem, and there were SO MANY irregularities, when you read the reports. No real investigation was done, though.
Eli @ 83
teensy, portable atom bombs are awfully hard to make. Very advanced technology!
UptownNYChick – great – although I’m not sure what the best way would be to coordinate such a thing. I still haven’t gotten the hang of the roots page, although I am on Pach’s roots email list. Maybe it would make sense to send around a mass email? Any thoughts?
*xyz @ 93
I am very new to this, so I don’t know how to go about it, but would be very happy to help put the plan into motion. Is there anything going on where we could meet up?
DefJef @
32
Were you EVER inside those buildings? Even once? If not, shut your fucking mouth and crawl back into your hole.
Because, if you had been, you would realize that wiring those massive buildings would have taken months. The floors were not particularly large either. So you think you can hide miles of det cord? Miles.
Thanks, ember.
brkily @ 88
I didn’t see it (didn’t want to bring up my breakfast) but apparently darth cheney said as much on MTP. These crooks and liars know something is up.
The dead of 9/11 deserved justice, not torture and a pointless, losing war in Iraq. Not Rudy Giuliani making money off the one good day in his miserable life. They have gotten so much less than they deserved, with ABC piling on top.
thank you, steve. that is the heart of the matter.
steve gilliard says:
September 10th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Thanks for saying that, Steve. I couldn’t think of a polite way to say it myself. And thank you so much for this post.
If I were in NY, I’d go to Ground Zero – but I was there in 1973 and remember looking up at the towers over the top of the construction fence. Not gawking, but remembering.
Can anyone vouch, fail-safe, for the stability of the former KGB operative, and current dictator of Russia, V. Putin, and his not using atomic weapons against the U.S.? Unless of course, perhaps, assuming he saw a weakened America. George Bush said something to the effect that this was a man ‘he could do business with’. Somehow, that’s just not very comforting or reassuring. Some might argue that Putin is a ‘crazy’. Calculating, to be sure. But nevertheless crazy. In a manner of speaking. And Putin has lots, and lots of nuclear arms at his disposal.
UptownNYChick @ 82
i would love that too.
Yeah, watching and listening to Cheney this morning, I’d say the fix is in for stealing the elections again. God help us.
Regarding Manhattanites rejecting Bush –
Why can’t the Democrats just point out that New Yorkers, those who were attacked, subsequently voted against Bush and for Kerry.
The point is to get the message to the rest of the country that if New Yorkers want Democratic national leadership to protect us from terror, then why should anyone believe Bush when he says that he is the only one who can protect America?
And how dare Bush say that only Republicans have learned the lessons of 9/11. New Yorkers have learned the lessons far better than Bush, and we voted for Kerry.
This is a powerful factual point that could be absolutely hammered on against Bush/Cheney – yet it is never used.
Why?
Steve
Wonderful post. I don’t mean to sound like a tragedy snob, but Steve is right about tourists at the hole.
The WTC was my subway stop for many years. I ate there, shopped there, actually went to farmers market there so often, the people in the booths knew me by name.
I have only been to the hole once. I got out of the subway near where Century 21 was, by the graveyeard. There were these horrible vultures selling tee shirts, and posters and coffee mugs and photographs
with these revolting slogans
I cried; walking away and broke into run as went towards the courthouse (my original desitnation)
Steve,
You are so right. We don’t need grief tourists. This is our pain to bear.
On the other hand that winter, I was taking little prop to Radio City for the Christmas Show and to see the big tree in Rock Center. we were on a long line for the ladies room and I heard these people who were confused about their travel directions talking and offered to help them find their destination.
They were from Missouri? I think? Really really conservative Xtians. Thought New York was Soddom and Gomorrah roled into one. do you know what they did?
They took all the money they would have spent on Xmas presents and Xmas parties and spent it all on an extended family vacation in NYC. Why? so, they could pump some money into the NYC economy.
They asked me to recommend resteraunts that might be at risk of closing because of the fall of the towers. This lovely woman said she didn’t care if the food was any good, she just wanted to do her part to keep a resteraunt or a shoe shine guy or a news stand open.
She just wanted to help a New Yorker, any New Yorker, even if her pastor thought she would rot in hell foor it. That family, oh how I wish I could remember their name!, brought 12 people to NYC.
They exchanged zero presents, not even to the children. On Christmas morning they were going to talk aboout the the O. Henry story “the gift of the magi” and explain that christmas is about love for each other and not about toys.
I loved me them Christain consevsatives that day.
There was a lot of hugging and kissing and crying on the line to the ladies room in Rock Center that day.
ember @ 89
Really? WE did? How many days did you smell burning flesh miles away from the WTC? So, what was it like seeing the Borders bookstore burned brown? How many people do you know who worked at Cantor Fitzgerald and lost their friends?
Wipe any ash from your apartment? Do you flinch at sunny, cloudless days?
WE didn’t go through shit together unless you lived here after 9/11. It doesn’t make you a bad person to say you don’t fully understand. But don’t pretend you do, because you don’t
As far as owning the hole, did you have fun seeing a mass grave? Take many pictures? Did it make you feel better, seeing a big hole in the ground? Did it answer all your questions? Good, I’m glad. Now please stay the fuck out of my city until there’s a proper memorial.
UptownNYChick and dmg – I actually have to run to dinner, but since we are all here often, I’m sure we will be able to resume this discussion in the near future. I’m excited about the possibility of getting together.
Also, should be a lot of other New Yorkers hanging around FDL tomorrow who might also be interested if we posted about it in the comments. Until then, take care and have a great evening.
‘This doesn’t belong to America.’???
With all due respect….It most certainly does. It’s part of America’s history. It may have happened in NYC but the people who were killed were from all across this country and from all over the globe. I guess I’m missing your point when you say it doesn’t belong to America. We were all horrified and forever changed by the events that happened that day. We were changed as individuals and we were changed as a nation.
This does not belong to one group of people, or one building or one city or one state. It is much bigger than that. No – all of us didn’t flee for our lives, smell the smoke, have the ashes of burnt up lives on our skin or in our nostrils – we may not have buried anyone or witnessed a funeral – but we all suffered that day. You don’t have a patent on the pain that happened that day or that continues to happen as a result of that day. There are thousands of lives touched in other ways subsequent to that day. The survivors of those military members killed in the war efforts and the thousands of lives they touched. There are all the civilians in other lands who have paid a price as well. So to claim some ownership of this tragedy by virtue of where you live or who you knew is just plain arrogant in my view.
steve gilliard @ 105
Steve, for me the only proper memorial is what is there.
Did you read The Times Special Tap Dance Around The Deutsches Bank Article?
All this talk of reconstruction… and no acknowledgement that that building can never, ever, ever be demolished unless mass death (and desecration of the already killed) are considered good urban planning.
Glorfindel @ 102
They both seem quite confident that there will not be a Speaker Pelosi. Terribly, quietly, scarily confident. With added jocularity.
part of current American politics is to demonize and personalize foreign leaders (and domestic ones too!) as crazy, irrational, unstable. Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, Mussolini, etc were no fools or madmen. They had different agendas than FDR or Coolidge. Putin is no different than Mitt Romney or Richard Armitage …
op99 @ 86
Bullshit. I know how to apply for a search warrant and so do lots of other people.
Large stinking pile of bullshit
Cheney’s words were chilling on the election. THese guys are the true heirs to Nixon. They will try and steal it – as sure as I am sitting here.
We have a long way to go to take back our country. Is anyone putting together an organized boycott of ABC/Disney? I didn’t buy the LOst season 2 DVD like I was planning, and my sister is modifying her vacation to Florida to eliminate DisneyWorld Is there going to be a more organized effort announced? I’d love to help.
TD Indy 13 ~ NYG ‘bush’s IQ’
Steve and Ember etc – easy, folks. We must respect each other even if we disagree. Though I live far away now I grew up in NYC but left before the WTC was built. My aunt and uncle though lived in the Battery and were forced to flee their apartment and both were elderly and in poor health, so this affected us all. Be gentle with each other.
On “the fix”: Do you remember when the elections were run largely by the League of Women Voters? Now in many places they are politicos – Harris, Blackwell. I am stunned that the Dems haven’t taken this up.
gilliard: As far as owning the hole, did you have fun seeing a mass grave? Take many pictures? Did it make you feel better, seeing a big hole in the ground? Did it answer all your questions? Good, I’m glad. Now please stay the fuck out of my city until there’s a proper memorial.
Yes, I took some pictures, no I didn’t have fun seeing a mass grave.
And no I won’t stay out of “my city”. It’s not your city, it’s all of ours.
Get off your high horse.
Small nuclear bombs are not, given the right raw materials, and a bit of know-how, that difficult to fabricate. It’s basic science. Besides, the ones doing the transporting and detonating do not have to be PHD’s. And so-called dirty-bombs can be produced extremely easily. Of course with our fool-proof Bush inspected ports and carry-ons, etc., we’re safe. Right?
Last Tuesday, NOVA did an update on their report on why the Towers fell.
The original conclusion was that the bolts on the floor joists had failed, which led to the collapse due to the loss of horizontal stabilization.
The latest theory is that the bolts held, but the fires cause the floor joists to sag — which caused a five foot deflection of the support columns. When the South Tower started to tip, the columns snapped — which is the visible blow out at the point of collapse.
Once the collapse began, gravity and millions of tons took over . . .
As for WTC-7, most of the theories about deliberate destruction flow from the ‘Let’s pull it’ quote. That came from the building owner in 2002; he was repeating what he heard on a radio. What was most likely being said by a Fire Chief was they were pulling ‘out’ their fire fighting teams, because they couldn’t save WT-7. Why it fell remains a mystery — but there is no evidence of explosives planted before the event.
*ilson46201 @ 46
The irony is that Clinton’s Omnibus Terrorism Act of ‘95/’96 included measures for expanding the government’s eavesdropping powers. But the Republican-controlled House and Senate basically said no f***ing way and passed a watered-down version of the bill (thanks to Orin Hatch, Trent Lot and others)that excluded this and other provisions — which the flip-floppers now defend as central to fighting the war on terror.
I have The Birdcage on AMC and can hardly bear the scattered “glowing reviews” that are cropping up. Just as I feared. Most Americans are just ignorant of the facts and will accept this tripe as truth.
They just portrayed that it was touch and go to get approval for the snatch of Ramzi Yousef in Islamabad.
I have to agree with Steve. I live across the country, and all I felt when I saw 9/11 was shock, awe, and utter disbelief. New York is the target for terrorists in this country (I think because D.C. is better protected, but I’ll grant them some share), and any American not living there who feels that they “share” in this in any more than an abstract manner is deluded.
If they are not 100% sure they can steal the election — and I doubt they will be by mid-October — then they will implement something in order to cancel it. “Paging Black Ops, please meet your party Mr. Cheney at the white-curb passenger pickup area!”
Richmond @115 and others: Part of our effort must be poll watching and preparation. It does no good to complain on the day. Get involved in YOUR precincts ahead of time and be sure they will have enough voting equipment and scream bloody murder if they plan to use Diebold. The Rs could steal the national election because they only really had to steal Ohio and FL, but this time every house seat is up and we must be there, everywhere it might be close enough to steal. FDL should work with whoever is good at this to be sure we all can be where we need to be.
Colts 13, Giants 0. Peyton beating Eli in Manning v. Manning.
-ck- @ 119
Also, if WT-7 was detonated as part of a conspiracy… what possible purpose did it serve? It was the towers that were iconic – WT-7 going down didn’t change a goddamn thing, so why risk exposing the plot by creating more evidence?
In another masterpiece of disaster planning, the Secret Service kept their munitions dump in No. 7 WTC.
Steve, I could see the smoke for many days and when the wind was blowing in the right direction I could smell it in nearby CT. I had neighbors who perished. Those thousands of people who died had lots of friends and family not in NYC. 9/11 happened in PA and DC and NYC, but touched many more thousands of people. I disagree with the appropriation of the day by the media and the government creeps, but NYC is a beloved city for people all over the world.
It is iconic and treasured– always has been and hopefully, always will be.
I haven’t been down there since the pile was gone. Drove by it and walked near it a couple times, but felt nothing. The site is gone, so I guess I don’t understand the tourists that go down there.
To me, I feel more emotional when I go by places where the missing persons flyers were posted.
I
moeman @ 97
Did anyone see this from Andrew Sullivan via DemfromCt at Kos:
“Next week, I’m informed via troubled White House sources, will see the full unveiling of Karl Rove’s fall election strategy. He’s intending to line up 9/11 families to accuse McCain, Warner and Graham of delaying justice for the perpetrators of that atrocity, because they want to uphold the ancient judicial traditions of the U.S. military and abide by the Constitution. He will use the families as an argument for legalizing torture, setting up kangaroo courts for military prisoners, and giving war crime impunity for his own aides and cronies. This is his “Hail Mary” move for November; it’s brutally exploitative of 9/11; it’s pure partisanship; and it’s designed to enable an untrammeled executive. Decent Republicans, Independents and Democrats must do all they can to expose and resist this latest descent into political thuggery. If you need proof that this administration’s first priority is not a humane and effective counter-terror strategy, but a brutal, exploitative path to retaining power at any price, you just got it.”
alright now.
Please stop this sniping at each other right now. It’s unseemly and accomplishes nothing. Emotions are running high …
steve’s post is spot on, of course, about the greatest obscenity: exploiting and appropriating the valor of the dead and the rescuers, and the grief of those who lost loved ones.
i knew people who died, and i have one friend who was in that very small group of survivors who were horribly injured — burns over 80 percent of her body.
the interesting thing was that her husband has totally gone bushie — this surprised me, especially when i thought he would be among those most upset at the way the attacks were used to justify the idiotic.
he has a perspective that i obviously don’t. we have agreed to disagree — which still makes him a much better man than any of the bushies, for whom dissent is treason.
Petedownunder: Poll watching doesn’t seem to be able to impact diebolt vote thefts. Or, in California recently, the taking of the voting machines home for a week. You are right about the House of Rep election, but even then, there are moves afoot to limit who can vote, etc. Tis scary!
TeddySanFran @
122
And then, what do you do? Seriously. That cocksuredness from Chimpy about election results is something I’ve heard before, and I don’t like it one bit. But if they steal another one, what are you going to do? Wait till 2008?
25 minutes ’til “The Wire”.
Putin IS different than Armitage or Romney. He has his finger on ‘THE’ button.
PT911 9:34 – dramatization disclaimer repeated.
Steve Gilliard is entitled to his own experience of 9/11. Please stop trying to talk him out of how he feels. He is a guest poster and deserves to be heard for the honest and open expression he has brought here. Respect his experience.
OK it’s 9:24 EST so, approx 1 and 1/2 hors into this piece fo fantasy. So far John Freakin Miller is the prescient reorte who guessed all (please please please never let me get started on John Miller)
but they have managed to overlook the convicitons
Yo, did she criminal convictione? Yes she did!
That Dave Kelley got for the Fisrt Worls Trade Center Bombibg.
OHHHHHHhhhhh, Did they manage to notice that PAtrick j. Fitzgerald CONVICTED the blind shiek for the “day of Terror” plot? dID YOU HEAR ME? Tried with full due process rights and still convicted!
Oh jee whiz, (pissing on their own sneakers) I guess they were in some freakin Hollywood hairdressers meeting that day!
There a men, real men, in this world–Men like John O Neil, Dave Kelley, Pat Fitz, Tom Corrigan, Richard Clark and anyone attached to the Wilsons and more than few judges I could name, who put love of country a head of personal rofit,personal prestige, personal privacy, hells bells- ahead of anything that could be good for themselves.
They are but a small list of the American heroes I love,
and admire
And wish to honor onthis night of blasphemese
dICKLESS WONDERS!
I guess we all must understand how much pain there really is around this day, and how unwise ABC/D was to exploit it, and how our horrible government has divided us from a formerly sympathetic world, and pulled us one from another — when we see how we are so quick to anger at one another, even here.
I am sorry for all of our loss.
Eli @ 125
The whole operation was run from WTC7. They destroyed it to get rid of that evidence.
Question everything or listen to Disney/ABC/GWB for the ‘truth’.
http://thumbsnap.com/v/qyXTftwL.jpg
NYG bags a TD.
Indy 13 – 7
You know this is a great alternative to this crapola that ABC is pushing. It’s the true story of John O’Neill
My first thought watching the towers fall was “My God, those poor people”
My second thought was for my 2 year old daughter. Her world was damaged before she knew it.
The damages that BushCo could inflict were magnified by orders of magnitude.
(for a short while thereafter I thought I was overly cynical and pessimistic…the we went to Iraq and all that followed.. I now realize that I was actually optimistic)
With all due respect, I’ve never much cared for Steve’s perspective on many things and stopped reading his blog over a year ago.
I was surprised to come here (one of my newly favored blogs) and find him posting.
This post reinforces my opinion of his perspective. Not that everything he writes here is something I disagree with, only that some of it is, and in a big way.
It’s just my personal opinion. I mean no disrepect. I just don’t relate to his perspective on many levels.
But he’s a big time blogger and I’m not, so who am I to criticize.
I just don’t relate to much of what he has to say about the world.
Life is subjective.
My two cents.
Simon
Fresno, CA
Ilson, I think we are all in deep pain/shock from the loss of this week -ABC’s showing of this travesty. Seems even graver with the mud on the talk shows today. 9/11 has been taken as their own by the righties, and we are in mourning for that too. My family was directly impacted by the fall of the towers. I still have a hard time even looking at the footage. But what FDL people have always been is really gentle, and it would be great to get back to that.
OT and oy, Paul McNulty saying we follow the law in the “GWOT” and Anthony Romero stomped him preemptively and Zogby is there and Koppel is mediating. Town Hall meeting going on.
George Soros talking now.
UptownNYChick @
128
There was nothing quite so beautiful looking out of the north window of the north tower on the 94th floor on a day when the clouds covered the city at street level, and the sun was shining on 94, and the only manmade object in sight was the top of the empire state building.
I went back once. Strange to be able to stand on the west side of West Street and see Century 21.
There will always be gawkers at places like this.
I don’t resent that they want to go there.
But they really can never understand what once was there.
*xyz @ 106
either of you may feel free to write me at wordsmith123 at hotmail. this proposal is the best thing to come out of this weekend.
I used to stop by the Towers now and then on my way home from work. The day the Towers fell, after I saw the second plane hit, I wondered about all the people I had crossed paths with while shopping, or the people who worked there. At that time, I was what is known as a head hunter. When you are a head hunter for the financial industry, you notice what a small universe it is, you develop relationships and if you don’t know someone, you probably know of them. Some of our clients didn’t make it. It was pretty tough for their co-workers who did. We’d get calls asking, “did you hear about so and so?”, they didn’t make it. As a native of the NY area, it quickly became apparent that we also had personal ties to some of the dead. That evening we heard of people who hadn’t come home and couldn’t be found. Some never were.
I’ve passed the place where the Towers used to be many times since 9/11. I always wonder at the normalcy all around. I’ve never actually felt it appropriate to stop and stare at what used to be there. I know for some it is a sign of respect. Maybe I just don’t want to remember. How do you even begin to make sense of something that seemed so surreal?
windje @ 148
One thing that does bother me is that it seems mostly to be the people that hate NYC and the people here that come to NYC to see the site. It’s like they are cannonizing the dead, not understanding that these people were moslty NYers at heart in life: a wonderful mix of cultures, lifestyles and ethnicities getting along and succeeding. They would have hated these people in life.
Boudica @ 150
I commuted by train from NJ to NYC. All public transportation was halted for nearly 24 hours.
People in suburban train station lots cheered as each auto was claimed by a returnee, hoping against hope that all the vehicles would have their owners return. They weren’t.
steve never fails to entertain. nice post. short and to the point. if it had happened in chicago and there were tourists coming to look at the hole, i think i’d be hard pressed not to smack some heads. worship of the scene of a horror is obscene, imho.
UptownNYChick @ 152
I don’t know if you can really generalize. When I was in Munich on business I made time to visit Dachau.
Been watching the French Bros’ doc and getting hearbroken all over again.
Steve (and Jen’s) Newsblog is in my top 10. His NYC political takes are more than interesting. His historical war commentary/juxtapositioning is a free crash course that deserve kudos. Bonus, the food/brew pieces are delicious.
angie @ 147
where?
windje @ 155
I am not saying all, but there are a lot.
On the Discovery Channel!
Yup, lots of assuming going on here tonight.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 158
Okay, I will venture into dangerous territory here, in part because it is off topic, in some ways. By bringing up another and rather different disaster, I don’t mean to put it up to the level of 9-11, only that it is my only close-hand experience.
My mother’s house (where I grew up) was at the epicenter of the 1994 Northridge earthquake. I was home (on the East Coast) bec. it was the MLK holiday. My landlady woke me up, coming downstairs saying doesn’t your mother live in LA? Turn on the TV. I did. Saw the first few seconds of the disaster, with destroyed shopping plaza quite near where she lives, and immediately tried to phone her. I didn’t know what had happened to her for 4 days, until my sister drove up from SD, broke curfew laws to drive to the house, and called me from her cell phone. No phone service trying to get through to my mom. I only was able to speak to my mom after calling the local police and getting them to break down the door to the den, where the chimney had fallen, and knocked the phone off the hook. More to follow events-wise.
My major point here- as I learned from that experience- unless you have been through a disaster- either directly, or with family members involved, and suffered not knowing what is happening and what is going on with them, if they are dead or alive, it is really difficult nay impossible to understand the feelings involved.
My 2 cents.
PT911, the Clinton bashing is getting egregious now.
ReneND @ 163
Which, as we all know, makes an ass out of U and Ming the Merciless.
My favorite view was always from the Brooklyn Promenade. It was always stunning and (IMHO) more stunning than the view from Guttenberg (or Hoboken or the Palisades) in NJ. I went back to NYC in 2004 to protest the Repug Convention. Without the view I also saw from the Jersey side, I couldn’t bear to go back to Brooklyn and look at it from my favorite side.
DefJef @
32
well, i’m an architect. i’m glad to see steve point out that it would have taken months to rig the explosives and pre-stressed cables necessary for a demolition job.
popular mechanics has just published a book on 9-11 conspiracy theories. look at all the work necessary to drop a tall building, and ask yourself “why didn’t any of the thousands of people who went in and out of those buildings every day see anything suspicious?”
look at occam’s razor, and ask yourself “is it easier to believe that george bush and 100 other people organized a grand conspiracy to kill 3,000 innocent people, and no one ever leaked a word” or that a handful of religious nutjobs hijacked 4 planes?”
PT911 – Massoud of Afghani Northern Alliance: “are there any men left in Washington, or are they all cowards?”
oh, it’s the traitor. hello, benedict arnold. how’s trix?
i have no problem with people going to NYC and spending their money there in a show of support for the community. i have huge issues with anyone who wants to go and just look at the hole, and nothing else in the city. which, as a midwesterner with plenty of winger neighbors, i can assure you some do. perhaps not all, but i’ve been sickened by more than one comment from a neighbor about “going to see it” like it were some shrine.
whoever said that these people would’ve hated many of the actual NYCers killed that day is correct. after DC, bashing “jew york city” is way more common than you coastal folks may realize. there are plenty of hicks in the heartland, and i say that as a native.
Thanks, Steve.
I have to disagree with your comment, Steve; while that terrible event certainly belongs to those of us who lived through it, you can’t deny that it was truly an international event, with people from all over the globe killed. Our sense of tragedy, memory and loss is personal, more intense (the smell that floated through my apartment even into November when the wind blew in this direction). But when all is said and done it was an international event, and papers across the globe noted their nationals killed.
It’s horrifying what’s been done with it by the Bush gang, and that has taken our private sense of tragedy and corrupted it terribly. Remember Union Square right after, how the Not In Our Name movement sprang up, it’s not like we didn’t expect it. That is to say nothing of the media generated outpouring of manufactured grief I spoke of in my earlier post, a cynical, sentimental cheapening of our inner, visceral sorrow.
That said, I have to say that in about October, when I first saw the vendors down there at Ground Zero selling pictures and mementos, I was glad — the true mercantile spirit of New York had returned, and I knew everything would be OK. Come on, the street scammer, the huckster, they’re part of our founding myth — remember the late 19th tours given to the incoming “rubes” of the Bowery, to see the saloon famous for the prostitutes committing suicide by leaping off the roof, the dens of misery in the Five Points, the site of the Astor Place riots and the like. Although these vendors, for the most part immigrants, had no idea they were, by simply seeing an opportunity to survive and making the most of it living the history of this great city and confirming that, yeah, New York was still New York
Yeah, I’m finding all of this 9/11 commemoration to be creepy. It’s not like anything has really been resolved (Osama still free, Bush still an idiot, Cheney still lying, etc).
I do think 9/11 brought out some very ugly tendencies in this country. I’ve had it with upper class white folks who lament that they no longer feel safe in the US. Jeez, join the rest of us. Safety is an illusion. And those who long for safety and would happily shred the COnstitution in the quest for safety are dangerous cowards. Torture will not make you safer, and makes this country look increasingly thuggish. WIth the US employing torutre, it’s only a matter of time before some hapless Yank will be on the receiving end of “business.”
I hate the 9/11 manipulators…..
meta @ 138
Steve could not possibly be more correct.
Steve, I am so with YOU on this. And anyone who did not grow up in NYC or was not there on the day
FUCKING BACK OFF
Leave Steve alone. He is right and you have no clue, not one iota of an idea of what you are talking about.
Back WAYyyy the hell off.
Take a moment to re-read what Steve wrote. I notice that not one single New Yorker disagreed with him.
Back Off until you have walked a mile in his shoes
PT911 now portraying that the Nairobi embassy bomber was identified in advance but nothing was done.
a dingo ate the baby @ 19
I tend toward Buddhism on matters such as this. There is no difference, except in the aggressor’s mind. All suffering is the same, and when all is said and done, all those who willfully bring about suffering are the same as well. It was true on 9/11, and it remains true for each death Bush’s wars bring about.
OT, sorry but I am telling all y’all that this is must watch teevee on Discovery. It is surreal, it’s what should happen in Congress everyday.
Ted Olson, Chris Shays, Tom Ridge, Jamie Gorelick and I don’t know who else.
Hope for a replay soon.
Brat @ 174
The appeal of Bush Republicanism is that it gives selfish chickenshits the opportunity to think of themselves as courageous, hardheaded tough guys.
Feh.
dopey-o @ 167
After the 93 bombing, access to the towers was by pass only. Visitors had to register. There were actually lots of security guards looking in bags and paying attention, as the prevailing view was that the place was still a target.
Smuggling that much explosive, wiring it up and nobody saw anything? Think of your own workplace. Think someone could do it without anyone noticing?
I knew Mark Bingham, which is to say I was friends with his ex-boyfriend and had met him a few times. This criminal event has affected anyone that has a heart.
The twin towers falling at nearly free-fall speed because of the ‘pancake effect’is as likely as the ’single gun theory’; interestingly including some of the same players.
PT911 the most egregious scene yet – CIA “Patricia” busts into a senior CIA meeting and emotionally balmes all the embassy deaths on CIA’s failure to assassinate UBL “when we had him.” Yeah right, that happened.
The worst thing about all of this, IMO, is the BS on TV tonight, and all the related garbage. The outright manipulation and using that these fear-dealers are mainlining to the masses now and for the last 5 years. Got American hooked on it, suits their purposes to a T. Now America can’t get enough of it, gotta get a big dose two days in a row to keep us hopped up til November.
I have a friend who lived just blocks from WTC, was there when the 1st plane hit and is permanently damaged from what she saw and experienced that day and for months after.
I despise all of those who conspire to bring this horror back and back and back. And who use it for their greedy and manipulative ends. Who pretend they had nothing to do with it, who blame everyone else, who lie and cheat and steal with every breath they take.
Who have used this tragedy for their own selfish and hateful purposes and pretend to be sorry. This was their wet dream. It makes me sick to death.
The “controversial” Scene
Just finished watching the “controversial” scene from Path to 9-11. It is obvious that it was based on the following parts of the 9-11 commission report: “The CIA Develops a Capture Plan” and “Kandahar May 1999″.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/…..rt_Ch4.htm
The CIA Develops a Capture Plan
Initially, the DCI’s Counterterrorist Center and its Bin Ladin unit considered a plan to ambush Bin Ladin when he traveled between Kandahar, the Taliban capital where he sometimes stayed the night, and his primary residence at the time, Tarnak Farms. After the Afghan tribals reported that they had tried such an ambush and failed, the Center gave up on it, despite suspicions that the tribals’ story might be fiction. Thereafter, the capture plan focused on a nighttime raid on Tarnak Farms.17
A compound of about 80 concrete or mud-brick buildings surrounded by a 10-foot wall, Tarnak Farms was located in an isolated desert area on the outskirts of the Kandahar airport. CIA officers were able to map the entire site, identifying the houses that belonged to Bin Ladin’s wives and the one where Bin Ladin himself was most likely to sleep. Working with the tribals, they drew up plans for the raid. They ran two complete rehearsals in the United States during the fall of 1997.18
By early 1998, planners at the Counterterrorist Center were ready to come back to the White House to seek formal approval. Tenet apparently walked National Security Advisor Sandy Berger through the basic plan on February 13. One group of tribals would subdue the guards, enter Tarnak Farms stealthily, grab Bin Ladin, take him to a desert site outside Kandahar, and turn him over to a second group. This second group of tribals would take him to a desert landing zone already tested in the 1997 Kansi capture. From there, a CIA plane would take him to New York, an Arab capital, or wherever he was to be arraigned. Briefing papers prepared by the Counterterrorist Center acknowledged that hitches might develop. People might be killed, and Bin Ladin’s supporters might retaliate, perhaps taking U.S. citizens in Kandahar hostage. But the briefing papers also noted that there was risk in not acting. “Sooner or later,” they said, “Bin Ladin will attack U.S. interests, perhaps using WMD [weapons of mass destruction].”19
In Washington, Berger expressed doubt about the dependability of the tribals. In his meeting with Tenet, Berger focused most, however, on the question of what was to be done with Bin Ladin if he were actually captured. He worried that the hard evidence against Bin Ladin was still skimpy and that there was a danger of snatching him and bringing him to the United States only to see him acquitted.24
On May 20, Director Tenet discussed the high risk of the operation with Berger and his deputies, warning that people might be killed, including Bin Ladin. Success was to be defined as the exfiltration of Bin Ladin out of Afghanistan.28 A meeting of principals was scheduled for May 29 to decide whether the operation should go ahead.
The principals did not meet. On May 29, “Jeff” informed “Mike” that he had just met with Tenet, Pavitt, and the chief of the Directorate’s Near Eastern Division. The decision was made not to go ahead with the operation. “Mike” cabled the field that he had been directed to “stand down on the operation for the time being.” He had been told, he wrote, that cabinet-level officials thought the risk of civilian casualties-”collateral damage”-was too high. They were concerned about the tribals’ safety, and had worried that “the purpose and nature of the operation would be subject to unavoidable misinterpretation and misrepresentation-and probably recriminations-in the event that Bin Ladin, despite our best intentions and efforts, did not survive.”29
Impressions vary as to who actually decided not to proceed with the operation. Clarke told us that the CSG saw the plan as flawed. He was said to have described it to a colleague on the NSC staff as “half-assed” and predicted that the principals would not approve it. “Jeff ” thought the decision had been made at the cabinet level. Pavitt thought that it was Berger’s doing, though perhaps on Tenet’s advice. Tenet told us that given the recommendation of his chief operations officers, he alone had decided to “turn off” the operation. He had simply informed Berger, who had not pushed back. Berger’s recollection was similar. He said the plan was never presented to the White House for a decision.30
Kandahar, May 1999
It was in Kandahar that perhaps the last, and most likely the best, opportunity arose for targeting Bin Ladin with cruise missiles before 9/11. In May 1999, CIA assets in Afghanistan reported on Bin Ladin’s location in and around Kandahar over the course of five days and nights. The reporting was very detailed and came from several sources. If this intelligence was not “actionable,” working-level officials said at the time and today, it was hard for them to imagine how any intelligence on Bin Ladin in Afghanistan would meet the standard. Communications were good, and the cruise missiles were ready. “This was in our strike zone,” a senior military officer said. “It was a fat pitch, a home run.” He expected the missiles to fly. When the decision came back that they should stand down, not shoot, the officer said, “we all just slumped.” He told us he knew of no one at the Pentagon or the CIA who thought it was a bad gamble. Bin Ladin “should have been a dead man” that night, he said.173
Working-level CIA officials agreed. While there was a conflicting intelligence report about Bin Ladin’s whereabouts, the experts discounted it. At the time, CIA working-level officials were told by their managers that the strikes were not ordered because the military doubted the intelligence and worried about collateral damage. Replying to a frustrated colleague in the field, the Bin Ladin unit chief wrote: “having a chance to get [Bin Ladin] three times in 36 hours and foregoing the chance each time has made me a bit angry…. [T]he DCI finds himself alone at the table, with the other princip[als] basically saying ‘we’ll go along with your decision Mr. Director,’ and implicitly saying that the Agency will hang alone if the attack doesn’t get Bin Ladin.”174 But the military officer quoted earlier recalled that the Pentagon had been willing to act. He told us that Clarke informed him and others that Tenet assessed the chance of the intelligence being accurate as 50-50. This officer believed that Tenet’s assessment was the key to the decision.175
Patricia Heaton has just overtaken Janice Dickinson in the race to play Katherine Harris.
I am an architect as well, and have been one for over 30 yrs. The explanation for why the buildings collapsed does not make sense.
The official reason for the two towers has been revised and the pancake theory originally proposed has now been abandoned in favor of a new one.. which is equally flawed.
People who know nothing about this should not be opining.
If you want to know about massive conspiracies look up:
The USS Liberty 1967.
OT whoo hoo– Ted Koppel just nails McNulty by saying that being American during a time of war does not mean going to Disneyland but to abide by the law.
(McNulty had said that we should enjoy our freedoms during these times just prior)
i heart Ted so much tonite.
chimezatmidnight @ 185
I think there are a couple of key attributes she may be missing.
Also, does her face look like fine Corinthian leather?
Colts 16, Giants 14. Eli just threw for another TD. Giants have momentum.
Laura and George laid a wreath at the Twin Towers site today. How nice and photo oppsy. How about going to the funerals for American soldiers killed in Iraq, Mr. and Mrs. President.
This post and the posts from early today are hard to read without crying. I do know of people who went to NY after 9/11 and did go by the site and for some of them, I am sure it was a way of trying to pay respects. I know they would get redrimmed eyes and say very very little. But I also understand the feeling of indecency at having gawkers – I remember a friend who died when I was young from a “gun cleaning accident” (that we knew was no such thing) While I had been to funerals and showings, there were none like that for me. I’m the youngest in my family, but he was like a younger brother to me. A call from him, trying to wheedle a ride, then two days later, a closed casket showing.
All the people standing around, renewing acquaintances, back to the closed coffin with pictures on top. It made me angry and even kind of bewildered – who can talk about Suzy taking her medcats; or whether someone left cookies; or the new subdivision – with his dead body right there. THERE.
I’m not a New Yorker and I can’t imagine what it feels like, but I think maybe something like that night. Mulitiplied by a few thousand.
angie @ 184
I agree, great show.
OT – Disney labor abuse
I’m a New Yorker on sabbatical in Chicago. And while I think I and my neighbors got the full sensory impact of 9-11 five years ago, I’ve met people here in the midwest who understand it better than my Chelsea neighbors ever will. It all depends on how much empathy is a part of one’s soul more than it depends on your home zip code. Yes, I lost friends that day, including Mychal Judge. But I’ve met people here who lost more friends. And I understand the rubberneckers, although I hope everyone who visits the site says their own version of a prayer.
What has been interesting to me for the last five years is meeting New Yorkers who had no connection to events of 9-11 … and they do exist. I used to work in Hamilton Heights (around 155th and Broadway) and, to this day, some of my former clients have no interest in or “connection to” any of the tragedy. There are many explanations for this but what it proves is geography isn’t destiny.
Evening, all.
Trying to get the barkeep to turn off Fox and get the game on.
On being a tourist. I went to the Centre about 10 days after the attack. I went to pay my respects. It’s a mass grave. I wish people would understand that.
The Republicans ALWAYS sound confident on the Sunday talk shows. They sound dismissive of the Dems’ chances. It doesn’t mean it will happen that way. Reminds me of those mega-preachers, Dobson, Robertson, and the like, who are always smiling while they spew their filth.
Steve writes extremely well. Enjoy his writing even if you don’t agree with all he’s saying.
Eli @ 185
She has one of those smashing Aeromattress foot pumps to inflate or deflate as the role requires.
Possibly two to save time.
All three are non-recovering plastic surgery addicts with a bipolar wiggle in their walk.
But the last point is yours. Patricia’s skin at this time merely has the quality of seventies naugahyde.
Janice’s face has become the site of an archeological dig to find actual living flesh.
while i’m not particuly superstitious, i do wish my daughter ahd bought her ticket to england to fly on 9/10 or 9/12.
Thanks OP99 for the reports. GRIM!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 188
I wish he could have gotten a great big lung-full of the residue that is now killing our firemen and first responders.
phoebes @ 193
Pretty much. I’m not going to draw any conclusions from any words out of Dick Cheney’s mouth. If “the fix” was in and he knew it, yeah, he’d gloat. But if it wasn’t, he’d lie and say the same thing.
UptownNYChick @ 198
Yes, one more thing they have taken zero responsibility for, collateral damage. No problem, breathing it. Remember?
Keywords: Saddam Hussein 9/11, Bush, Iran, Iraq, Al Dawa, Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, Al maliki, Al Hakim, WTC
Correction: In Conflict Between Osama and Saddam, Bush Policy Aided Osama’s Side and greatly empowered the Shiite fundamentalists of Iran and Iraq
9/11 = Nearly three thousand ghastly deaths tens of billions of dollars in damage
Iraq = Tens of thousands of ghastly deaths $300 billion
9/11 Iraq = Bush’s Fundamentalist Islamic Republic
WTF?
angie @ 147
Do not ever get me started on what a sellout tool mcNulty is. Ever!
I won’t, lhp and he is a McDremel :>)
Amen, Brother.
Well said as usual, Steve.
118
That’s quite a little mystery, isn’t it? Where do you all get the certainty that demo experts would take “weeks” to rig such buildings? and if it would take demo experts weeks, how could 2 aluminum jetliners demolish THREE steel frame structures?
I’m afraid it’s time to turn Occams Razor on the “official” explanation- and ask yourself “is it easier to beleive the FBI, NORAD, the multiple redundant rings of security around the Pentagon, all failed completely at once?”
many, many more such questions are still out there- look at the people who are pushing the official story- are they really that trusted around here?
Oklahoma kiddo @
187
Having had one of these funerals for a family member, I’m glad neither Mr. Bush (and the circus that attends him) nor “Rev.” Fred Phelps (and the circus that attends him) were present.
Funerals are not photo ops.
sporkovat @ 207
Um… yes, and yes.
lhp — did you ever cross over with the McNulty regime in the S.D.? Not that I really want to get you started — (much….)
I’m too upset to even address the whole topic of 9/11.
But what I want to know is why — here in AZ — Discovery is not running this wonderful Koppel piece y’all speak of. Instead they have one of their STUPID shows on — I think it’s guys who check out “urban legends” or some such.
I have to go dig up the newspaper schedule to see WTF is up, and why we can’t see the Koppel show now when everyone else apparently is. Bummer.
But then soon we’re going out to the dog park — to enjoy the doggies running together, playing with great joy, and hang out with other dog-lovers.
Have to dispel this sense of gloom and outrage — a horrible combo. It’s not that I feel too little — I feel too much, and my heart may literally burst otherwise.
Peace to all Firepups — and to all humans everywhere who long for peace and justice and truth.
pseudonymous in nc @ 16
Indeed. Bush on 9/11. How I remember it. That night, after my four hour, eight mile walk home from Lower Manhattan on blistered feet and an arthritic knee, I sat on my sofa sobbing as I watched TV clips of the attacks I had seen with my own eyes, and realized that what I had thought were debris falling from the towers had actually been people who’d decided that jumping was better than burning. And then Bush came on. Looking stunned, inarticulate, robotic. Holy shit, I thought. He’s as paralyzed as I am. But I was there, and he’s the President of the United States, and what the hell are we going to do now if the President is going to act like a deer in the headlights.
A couple of days later, he shows up in New York for his big photo op, and suddenly he’s a hero. When he gave his speech to Congress on the 20th, it was better than I expected, and I wanted so badly to believe that this man I had not voted for, who had looked so small and frightened on that terrible night, would grow into the job.
When he came to NY to throw out the first ball at the first Yankees home game after 9/11, I was there, and I actually cheered him, because I wanted so badly to believe that he would grow into the job.
Needless to say, he did not. The biggest of the many reasons why he is the worst president ever.
This piece of mudpie I am watching bears almost Zero resemblance to anyhin g at al li remember from tho9se days.
And by the way, John Miller is a self agrandizing……………..
Other than the quotws lifted from it, this has nothing to do with the 9-11 Comisson Report and everything t do with Miller’s piece of crap book and the feverd imaginaiton of YWAM
I’ve dined at Windows more than one and stayed in the Marriott that was across the street. Does that entitle me to visit NYC again, or has my visa been revoked permanently? In which case, I’ll at least have the memories.
sporkovat @ 204
One might also ask whether the official story and an internal conspiracy are the only two possible explanations or just a convenient false dichotomy that serves the proponents of each view equally well. And one might conclude the latter.
immanentize @ 207
No, My problems with Mcnulty start much later
looseheadprop @ 213
I heart lhp
Fab. It’s turned into a 9/11 conspiracy thread.
Thank you, Steve, for your heartfelt post. Out here in the Jersey burbs, lots of towns have erected small memorials to the local residents who died in NYC that day. For months, everytime you’d talk to someone you hadn’t seen in a while, the first question after hello was “is everyone okay?” meaning did you lose family or friends on 9-11. There was the friend who was coming up the stairs from a subway station just as the first plane struck the north tower, the colleague who had a relative who made it out of one building, and the neighbor whose brother (NYFD) didn’t.
It was crying as you read Portraits in Grief in the NY Times every morning, with profiles of many of the victims. It was turning the television off, two or three weeks after nonstop tragedy, vowing not to watch it anymore [coming up on the fifth anniversary of that vow, which we’ve kept].
Five years later, I still haven’t visited the site of the WTC, except to ride through to the new PATH station, and then with my eyes on my knitting or buried in a book so I won’t see the site.
I was working in NYC in 2004, when a good friend and journalist came to cover the protests at the Republican convention. Everyone I knew in NYC was furious that the Republicans held their convention in New York–they felt it was sacrilegious for them to be in the city, for espousing beliefs that contradicted everything that New Yorkers held dear.
Please, everyone, I wish us all courage and energy as we work together to elect a new Congress this fall, and begin to hold this awful administration accountable for all of the lost lives, American and others, they have caused by their reckless ideology.
Eli @ 218
Paging Fox Mulder…
Shez- I am a moderator, and I have been reading all of the comments. Ordinarily comments like these made by others under different circumstances would have been yanked. But, the 9-11 stuff is really raw for some, and my call is that it is worth getting these feelings out there. Grief has many dimensions.
Eli @ 220
I suspected that would flush you out!
HIT HIM WITH THE PREDATOR! Do IT, Man!
:~)
Guitar Playing Bastard – good to see you! are you feeling better?
Our son’s birthday is 9-11. That morning I stood frozen for 3 hours watching events unfold from half a continent away with a horror I cannot describe. My birthday call to him began…have you seen the news? Two days later, we drove from Fargo to Chicago for what was supposed to be a birthday weekend with our son, away at university for the first time. As we neared the city, the skies were empty. Sign after electronic sign…in car dealerships, on banks, on the expressways said simply “God bless America.” Sunday morning when I looked out of his apt window and saw the first airplane in the air, I cried.
Steve and those of you who were in NYC that day and lived through its aftermath, I can’t begin to know the measure of your pain, but 9-11 touched all of us that day. When I went to a writers’ conference @ Times Square in ‘04, a friend and I went to Ground Zero, and walked through Trinity Church, and the scenes I had seen that morning on television were heavy on my heart and I cried again.
We have lost so much as a nation, and had so much stolen from us by the evildoers among us who have used this tragedy for political gain and war profiteering and exploitation. And the news has become a mockery of itself as it allows the destruction of this great nation from within.
But I hope we can all unite in common purpose that come November we will take back our democracy again.
TeddySanFran @
109
My only comfort is that they have been wrong before. Chimpy said “no plan” for if the House goes Dem, like there was no plan for Iraq’s occupation.
Watch the exit polls. Anybody know how to get UN observers for elections?
My editing function has died again, but just wanted to mention that I also heart our mod., VG aka, the enigmatic “M.”
Shez — immediately after that intemperate remark, I issued in bold face a warning about civility
Yes, I have been deleting a lot in this overheated thread…
Eli @ 219
don’t worry, trex will be around shortly to spread some cheer. we could all use a dose of punaise about now.
VG you pulled some of my comments and I am rather annoyed because Gallard made ad hominem attacks and HE should be pulled in my opinion for THAT.
Re this NYC vs the US response to 9/11, I for one can never forget the delegate from some southern state to the Republican convention, who told the tv interviewer that “New Yorkers seem to have forgotten what happened here and we need to remind them.” Those sorts of comments also sear and you have to be a bit tolerant if some of us get a little prickly when the subject comes up.
*ilson- well, I guess my reading has been incomplete, as I haven’t done an F5 lately. My point still stands, however.
DefJef — I pulled your out-of-line remarks …
“But you know, it took 40 years for people to understand the Warren Commission was bullshit too. Hope it doesn’t take 40 for this.”
All it takes is 40 hours and a tool: logic [which may well fly in the face of the preconceived notions of common human decency and some sort of self-limit to politcal cynicsm as impediment to power].
DefJef @ 228
DefJef- I was not the one who pulled your comments. Apparently I have missed some comments. See my recent comment above.
Prairie Sunshine @ 225
thank you -
I wish he could have gotten a great big lung-full of the residue that is now killing our firemen and first responders.
Leisler NYC @ 227
I can’t tell you how many Repugs I directed cheerfully to Avenues B and C during the 2004 convention.
Mrs. K8, I’m sitting here in Tucson watching the Koppel show on Discovery Channel…of course, I do have Dish Sattelite tv….
It really is Must-See TV. Excellent, thoughtful, raising some of the hard questions. I’m going to want to see it again, I can tell.
And for what it’s worth, this ex-New Yorker comes down on Gilliard’s side in this — if you weren’t really there that day, and the subsequent two weeks, you really don’t get it. I’ve been back many times in the last five years, and I flinch when I look at the skyline. But my friends flinch when a plane flies over Manhattan. They have a haunted look when we talk about The Smell. And no one looks south.
I have never gone to see the hole. I won’t.
chimezatmidnight @ 239
Leisler NYC @ 227
I can’t tell you how many Repugs I directed cheerfully to Avenues B and C during the 2004 convention.
I sent a bunch on the subway uptown, wanted to make sure they saw Harlem.
This freakin piece of shit has nothig watsoever to do with the 9 11 report. This is the John Miller show.
John Miller is the architect of this pile of shit
Indy rushing TD.
23 ~ 14.
wcgreen @ 205
“Funerals are not photo ops.” We, you and I, know this. The Bush’s do not. I lost people in Oklahoma City.
imm- thanks. But apparently I have missed a lot, as I was still engaged also in the previous “wimmen” thread. And, BTW, *ilson I heart.
VG,
Two of my comments directed to SG were pulled… who pulled them and why?
steve gilliard @ 95 Says
I was in those building when they were under construction..thank you very much.
PT911 Part 1 ended with beginning of hijack of AA flight 11, not the wimpy Sandy Berger bullshit.
moeman @ 237
Go Manning !
Some of the individuals who paid the victims of 9/11 the greatest respect are the Jersey Girls. It would have been so easy for these young wives, (widows), and mothers to withdraw into their grief and shock. They did not, they honored those victims by lobbying for the 9/11 Commission investigation. They honored the nation by demanding an accounting of the critical lapses leading to the attack. These are the citizens deserving a Medal of Freedom Award. Perhaps, another administration will recognize their contribution and success. Just a bunch of little mothers with spines of steel. They have grieved but not wallowed. What an example to all of us. They are no less brave than Jacqueline Kennedy following her husband’s assassination. Moral courage. Too bad our government lacks it, too bad ABC/Disney lacks it. They along with the others who worked so hard to achieve an investigation should have a plaque placed on the site. Theirs was an heroic effort. Oh, that’s right, all those altruistic values are no longer in style. Too bad, as it is the only decent thing to emerge from the tragedy. I am sure the day will come when Kristen Breitweiser will be encouraged to run for office. Perhaps then, the public will begin to get the whole story. The story is not yet complete.
*ilson46201 @ 243
I am so clueless about football !
*ilson46201 @ 243
And on Fox Movie Channel –
Joe Gideon flirting with the Angel of Death, popping pills, breaking hearts until his own stops, saying, “It’s showtime!”
Go Fosse!
I am sure by now everyone has read Andrew Sullivan and his information that Rove and Bush intend to use victims’ family members to get the administration’s pro-torture legislation passed.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
Ted Koppel Still at it.
Go Watch
Pay attention
DefJef- read above. Oh, and btw, I know it’s a bad time to mention it, but my tinfoil hat is always in place re: the building thingy. Perhaps we best take this up at a later time.
immanentize @ 246
Lovely. Nothing is too sleazy or exploitative for these so-called “people,” is it?
*ilson46201 @ 243
Two Mannings in this game! It is the Manning Bowl! Yeah New Orleans Boys!
moeman @ 97
I thought the same thing earlier, waaayyy too confident…The hair on the back of my neck stood up when I heard cheney say that.
FYI: Thre are other blogs commodious to 9/11 conspiracy theories.
This isn’t one of them. Around here we stick to things like facts and evidence.
We return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
FYI:
Sixty seven U.K. citizens were killed at the WTC on 9/11/01. There is a memorial in grosvenor square in London.
http://www.worldarchitecturene…..oad_id=157
It’s across the square from the American Embassy, which looks a lot like Beirut circa 1980 with all the barbed wire, concrete barriers and armed guards.
It’s so great to be an American these days.
So MY post got yanked for pointing out unexceptable rudeness???
OMG
Way,way up thread Guitar Playing Bastard posted his/her feelings about 9/11. I’d like to say: “I wish I’d said that.”
I live six hours behind EST, so nearly everytime I post I’m the last entry. In any case, this country, where I was born many years ago, has become a danger, a shame and an embarressment.
My husband and I hold dual citizenship in a European country and if we weren’t so f**kin’ old, and were willing to leave all family contact here, we’d be gone in a flash. And it’s only going to get worse . . . much worse. I’d advise all the young uns’ who can to get out now! Me? Probably end up in one of the “detention camps”, as I’m no longer able to feed the money trough for the neo-cons. Oh, well …
Great article, hope someone other than this fine group of posters is paying attention.
Beth –
Thanks for the info from Tucson!
I dug up the local fish-wrap and found out it starts here at 8 p.m. local time — in about 10 minutes — then repeats again at midnight. I may watch it late, or tape it as an alternative. I guess Discovery operates differently from, say, Turner Classic Movies (when the same thing is shown simultaneously coast to coast) — they must have a different feed for the west.
Right now it’s off to the dog park — I need the simplicity of dogs at play, and the people who love them. Gotta stay sane.
Good to meet another AZ resident here! Maybe some day we’ll connect, eh? There seem to be a good few of us here at FDL.
Shez @ 255
One of mine appears to have gone missing as well.
Play nice people. That’s all. Just play nice. I have to get up early tomorrow and I don’t have the bandwidth to play referree.
Giants rushing TD, now 23-21, Colts still lead, 8 minutes to go in the 4th.
Okay, so I said that I had been reading all of the comments, but apparently I haven’t seen them all. fwiw.
Here’s what I wrote last night regarding this subject. Feel the same way today.
The trouble with those who insist on believing the 9.11 commission’s conspiracy theory is that MOST of them have done no research whatsoever into the events of the day and don’t even KNOW the ananolies and coincidences.
Where are the bodies from flight 93?… where is the forensice reconstruction of the plane? There is so little evidence from that plane that it boggles the imagination… Look for the evidence SEE WHAT IT SAYS.
or to quote Steve Galliard “Shut the fuck up” … hahahaha
Shez @ 256
Your post got yanked for repeating that rudeness and then you pitched into the moderators for allowing it. It had been dealt with already before you starting complaining.
I love you dearly Shez but read all the thread before you jump into the middle of something…please
AirportCat @ 261
One of the best first Sundays of NFL in a long while (including the Steelers win Thursday! and the Cowboys losing of course)
al-Scooter @ 259
yes al-Scooter — the way you phrased it was unintentionally hurtful in my opinion so I ditched it to keep the emotions from boiling over higher… you are normally a productive commenter, your wording was unintentional
Just finished watching The Path To 911. The first 120 minutes or so was factually correct as far as I know it. After that, another disclaimer on the screen. This thing was benign politically. What was originally first person slander was reduced to third person speculation. I totally didn’t get the Northern Alliance surrounding bin Laden thing and I doubt anyone else did either, huh? Fast paced overall. One mention of Monica from someone watching a news account from a limo TV.
Sorry Comediean Rush Limbaugh and Hugh Hewitt, nothing to see here. Put in another quarter and try again ; )
Not everyone is convinced by the official story of the towers collapse…
The laboratory director from a South Bend firm has been fired for attempting to cast doubt on the federal investigation into what caused the World Trade Center’s twin towers to collapse on Sept. 11, 2001. Kevin R. Ryan was terminated Tuesday from his job at Environmental Health Laboratories Inc., a subsidiary of Underwriters Laboratories Inc., the consumer-product safety testing giant.
Ryan wrote that the institute’s preliminary reports suggest the WTC’s supports were probably exposed to fires no hotter than 500 degrees — only half the 1,100-degree temperature needed to forge steel, Ryan said. That’s also much cooler, he wrote, than the 3,000 degrees needed to melt bare steel with no fire-proofing.
“This story just does not add up,” Ryan wrote in his e-mail to Frank Gayle, deputy chief of the institute’s metallurgy division, who is playing a prominent role in the agency investigation. “If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.” [Salt Bend Tribune]
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fire.htm
rwcole @
55
Well, gas prices are coming down, rather dramatically. That tends to help any prez.
If he thinks it will increase his approval ratings, he can convince the other oil folks to keep the prices falling for a little longer–as long as he leaves Chavez alone. If prices get too low, though, you can cue Chavez to raise them in 5, 4, 3, 2…
I would think this is a time of reflection, grief, and memory. The Path to 911 and Thomas Kean did a great disservice to us all because it brought the work of the 911 Commission into disrepute and reinvigorated all the conspiracy theories and theorists. The Commission was compromised in its makeup and hampered by a recalcitrant and often dissembling Administration. Its product was admittedly flawed but this had more to with massive CYA by the Bush et al and not some attempt to bury evilly clever conspiracies. This is the Bush Administration after all. They have shown over and over again that they would f*ck up tying their shoes laces. But this is neither the time nor the place.
Is PTT 9/11 over?
passing through – The Kopple show is decent, a step in the right direction opening a few doors that I would like to rip off their hinges, but well worth a watch. It will rerun later tonight for owls and tivo owners.
Thanks for the heads up Angie.
DefJef- did you see my comment round about 248?
But also please see my comment http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-288248
Emotions are running high this eve, and seems to me that this isn’t the time to try to trump emotion with logic, if you see what I mean. Better left for later imo.
Racist troll repellent, please.
glib, content free dismissals are easy when you think you have conventional wisdon solidly behind you.
I don’t suppose it matters to you that THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.
immanentize @
246
yes, and passed it on to my friends and relatives.
clean-up @ 271.
DefJef- read my earlier comments. Wrong time, wrong place.
LJ/Aquaria @ 267
A point perhaps worth making: in light of the last few days, is it wise to take anything related to politics at face value if it has ABC’s logo on it?
racists get quickly deleted but the stink remains until you hit F5 to refresh your page …
VG,
There is NEVER a time to trump logic with emotion… PULEEZ don’t be saying that.. for when you abandon reason for pure emotion…. all is lost in discourse.
Go directly to poetry or art… and do not pass GO or collect $200
to: R.Brower
Do your self a favor and before you take this movie as fact, read the 9/11 Commission Report and the book by Richard Clark. Have someone help you with the big words. Then, when you actually have a clue of what you are talking about, come back and join us. Until then, please remember, the adults are talking here.
Watched some of the show. I think I’ll by ABC and give it to my grandchild. I’m sure s/he would like a mickey mouse outfit.
Trying to, *ilson, but the servers are beginning to melt…
Steve, I appreciate your sharing of this painful event in your life. Often times, just writing the words or thinking about the subject makes you relive the day as if new.
Therefore, I hope you understand when I say that I disagree with your characterizations of rubber-neck tourists or that this does not belong to America.
Let me clarify the first half of my sentence. I find the selling of photos of the towers burning appalling. However, by your definition I would be considered a rubber-necker simply because that December following 9/11 I went into New York (I live in CT) and one of things I did was to go see ground zero.
Perhaps being such a person I might offer some reasons as to why I did this as well as why others do. For you and other New Yorkers, yes, this was one incredibly personal and visceral event, but for the rest of America it was also a shared national event no less significant than Pearl Harbor. September 11th isn’t wholly owned by just New Yorkers as an experience, you had the worse of it, the nightmare to live through. Yes, on the pain and terror and heartbreak scale you win, but we all hurt to one degree or another.
That fateful day I was driving to work listening to CBS News radio from NYC as I always do. We all remember the beautiful sky blue day (it’s a constant mental notation for all) when the news hit the radio that a plane had crashed into one of the WTC buildings. I looked at the sky and thought to myself “God, this can be no accident. It’s the terrorists, again.”
As the day unfolded I found for the very first time in my life that events, horrid events were occuring in my country that I thought never possible. Being only 70 miles away and hearing constant reports of planes flying into various targets, now including Washington D.C., it seemed as if any building anywhere could be hit. Nobody could know how big this plot was. I also remember thinking that this was the day that would change EVERYTHING.
I also remember the deep deep sadness as CT hospitals prepared to accept what was thought would be an overwhelming number of casualities that NY wouldn’t be prepared to handle and how the highway was cleared for ambulances that never arrived.
Anyway, to my point, I went to to NYC to see ground zero to connect not to gawk. I needed to see it fully, take it in, absorb its magnitude. I needed that visceral connection you felt without wanting to on 9/11. I had the emotional connection, but actually seeing it made more of an impression on me than mere news reporting ever could. It became more real.
When I was 18 I had a summer job working on Wall St. This was my first trip back to that area of NY since. It was like walking into some bizarre timelessness where reality had been turned on its head.
Don’t dislike people because they want to make a connection. This was a significant event in every American’s life. We sympathize as best we can, sometimes clumisily, but we are utterly empathetic and I think most people’s hearts are in the right places.
Like all humans on this little blue orb, we stumble around this planet trying to make sense of those things which shock our senses the most, but we mean no disrespect as we plod along.
Censorship is by the government. No one has a right to say what they want on a privately hosted blog. We invite the community in because that’s what we do, but pulling back comments that disrupt the community or the conversation is what we do to keep the atmosphere positive. Anyone can start their own blog with rules they like better whenever they want.
If you have complaints or are really pissed off tonight, please take a time out, go read something that does not piss you off, have a cup of tea, whatever, but please don;t add further negativity into the community. Let it go.
Moderators, please continue to pull further discussion on 9/11 conspiracy theories that involve the placement of explosives in the buildings, at your discretion.
I’m off to bed. Anyone who does not like this position can send me a hateful or otherwise critical email.
I have my own doubts about the legitimacy of the official explanation, but one of the things that bugs me about the conspiracy nuts is that they don’t know when to shut the fuck up. Like 1st century christians.
Stop it, now. We all feel like shit because the wingers have again tried to hijack the atrocity, like they did when they held the ‘04 convention in NYC so they could dance on the corpses. Fuck ‘em. They’re pulling out all the stops, and will continue to do so for the next couple months, ’cause their back is against the wall.
Don’t post in anger. Don’t dump on your brothers and sisters on this site. Be respectful or put a lid on it.
Kathryn in MA @
220
Umm, with regard to what? 9/11? The US? Regrettably no.
But thanks for asking. (:-)
UptownNYChick @ 270
fedupcrone @
255
I don’t think many of our “fine group of posters” is paying attention, hence the dearth of replies (other than yours) to the post.
Like so many, they’re content to “take the high road” and LOSE AGAIN! We must fight fire with fire, we must do everything we have to in order to win. but too many in the “progressive” movement are NOT willing to do that, so we will lose, we will continue to be marginalized and we will continue to see resources, freedoms and the nation we once loved, turn into a latter-day Nazi Germany, and as long as NASCAR is running, the great unwashed will be happy, living in their Airstreams. drinking toxic water and popping babies like so many guppies in a fish tank.
People, you have to wake up if you want to win.
TOM — stop it now please. you are being deleted as fast as our servers can do it
DefJef- the operative phrase there was “try to”. Give it a rest, all. No one is going to change their mind about all of this, this eve. Later, guys.
FINAL: Colts 26, Giants 21. Both Mannings played well.
chicago tom- and I will say the same to you. Give it a rest, all. No one is going to change their mind about all of this, this eve. This is not the time or the place. I happen have my own suspicions about the official report. But you are doing no fucking good by trying to keep bashing at this this evening, and if you want to change minds, this is not the way to do it. STFU.
Bottom line, Rush didn’t get what he wanted from this and his head will EXPOLDE tomorrow, heh heh
TRex, where art thou?
I don’t think Merrill had any floors in in the WTC, weren’t they in Weehawkin, NJ? But Morgan Stanley, yes.
]wtf @ 302
You’re right, you don’t; or you might understand why none has taken place here tonight.
Steve wrote a fine post. I know a place where people can write about what they want to write about. It’s called DailyKos and it lets you make your own posts and diaries.
Tom, you are changing screennames but not IPs so we know you are trying to spam this place now…
please leave now …
VG
Exactly when would be the right time and where would the right place be?
I believe SG dismissed all other “theories” about what happened as nothing more that tin foil rubbish and it precisely because HE opened up this can of worms and displayed his own ignorance of the matter that so many people have decided to bring up some of the tin foil stuff which may not be so tin foil.
Well. Who’s up for a drink?
New York was not the sole site of tragedy that day; people died in Washington, D.C. and they died in a cornfield in Pennsylvania. As it was happening, no one knew how much more was coming, how much worse it might get, which city or town or building was next. We all felt the fear that day, but most of us did not experience death or loss of our own loved ones, and for that we were all grateful: there but for the grace of God…
I am not a gawker. I do not rubberneck at the scene of an accident.
I understand – a little – what Steve is saying. Some years ago, the school my kids attended burned pretty much to the ground. It was an old, stone-front school that had been around for generations. It was a country school that grandparents of current students had attended. It was a special place, full of history and personality. It wasn’t modern, but it was like a warm lap for the kids to crawl into every day.
It hurt my heart to see the shell that was left – just the stone-front facade. It was just fenced off and left to stand, and for at least a year, I could not look at it when I had to take the road it was on.
People came to gawk – people who didn’t live there, had no kids in school there, who didn’t even know anyone who went to school there. It was surprising how territorial and protective we all felt about it – very much a “what the hell are YOU looking at?”
I get what Steve’s saying, and my burned-down school expreience is nothing at all comparable, but it helps me understand how he feels and why.
But the events of that day did touch all of us, though most of us did not have the physical reminders every day. It doesn’t change that we were really all connected in our fear and in our pain. Those who seek to profit off the events deserve contempt, but those who wish only to respect and honor in their own way do not.
Peace to all.
Tom — you have been posting the same info and links for months now in here. We asked you nicely tonight to stop it. You refused. You spammed, You shapeshifted. You called us Nazis. You are a disrupter …
STFU as other moderators so eloquently asked you …
Boudica @ 302
Merrill was primarily in the WFC across West Street.
tommy yum @ 311
I’ll have a double, straight up
DefJef- right place right time would be when emotions weren’t running so high and it was actually possible for people to listen outside the box.
tommy yum @ 320
make it a double