Conservatives Without Conscience
John Dean’s book is one of the most important books of the year. It has obviously resonated across the country, as it has remained on The New York Times Best-Seller list since the first week it was released, despite receiving only a fraction of the media attention frequently showered on political books which do not perform nearly as well. My review of Dean’s book is here, and I also wrote about it last week at FDL.
I was very excited when Dean agreed to participate in the FDL Book Salon because I knew this would be an excellent venue for discussing his arguments. The discussion here last week was genuinely superb, and one of the experts on whose research Dean relies in his book, University of Manitoba Professor of Psychology Robert Altemeyer, unexpectedly showed up and participated. This is what he said about the FDL Salon discussion: " I just wanted to say that I have not seen a collection of comments as insightful and intelligent as those that have accumulated here. It seems that almost all of the writers have read John Dean’s book, and understood it, and are deeply concerned about the points he made. Reading what you’ve said made my day."
Dean has written an introduction in preparation for his participation here today. He sent it by e-mail and I am re-printing it after the fold.
BY JOHN DEAN
A few brief comments before we get started. Allow me, first, to thank Jane Hamsher for inviting me to visit her terrific FDL site and Glenn Greenwald for his incisive summary of Conservatives Without Conscience. Needless to say, I also appreciate all who have read CWC, and found the book informative and engaging, for like most authors I write because I have thoughts and information I believe is worth sharing and it is a delight when that, in fact, happens.
I will begin by addressing just a few of the many thoughtful comments posted last week, and one of the thoughtless posts.
Several comments expressed some uncertainty about why I have written CWC. Did I write it to distance Goldwater conservatism from contemporary conservatism? Am I trying to rehabilitate conservatism? Or is there some other partisan motive behind this undertaking?
The short answer is that none of these thoughts even occurred to me when working on the book. I no longer consider myself partisan for anything other than good government. Many years ago I registered as an Independent (and I have voted for Democrats, and Republicans) for I do not believe either party has a lock on wisdom, so I look at the candidate(s) and issues, and party affiliation is irrelevant to me.
As I said in the book, I am a Goldwater conservative of many issues. What does that mean? At pages 70-72, I set forth a listing of where I believe conservatives with versus without conscience fall on an array of issues. I believe a Goldwater conservative has a conscience, and falls on that side of my ledger. In fact, in preparing this list I refer to material in Senator Goldwater’s personal papers to see where he stood, and then listed that as a position of a conservative with conscience. (Ironically, I have had any number of progressive and liberals tell me that they can — or do — embrace most all those positions. This is not surprising, for Senator Goldwater often said when history looked back on him they would call him a liberal!)
Another bias issue that arose in last week’s discussion was whether I have an axe to grind with my old Watergate gang, more specifically, Chuck Colson and Gordon Liddy, and may be doing so with this book? Colson and Liddy, who are prototypical authoritarians, are mentioned because their activities were among the several experiences that lead me to realize the prevalence of authoritarianism in contemporary Republican politics. I have never been into revenge, finding it a waste of energy, and if I were to ever go after Colson or Liddy I would use the blunt edge of the axe – and no one would have any doubt about what I was doing and why.
Finally, running throughout the posts is a charge that was lobbed into the discussion early, claiming that the book was flawed because it lacked logic; initially nothing specific was offered to support the charge. When the specifics arrived later they were a bit underwhelming. Rather than deconstruct the mischaracterizations of the book by this critic, or his submission of opinion as fact, I believe Molly Bloom corrected the record in post No. 239. She picked up what I discovered shortly after publication, along with a few other errata.
Originally the sentence on 169 read (as close as I can recall its substance without digging out the galleys) that Bush did not “appear” to be a Double High because the public Bush and private Bush are different people; however I had no doubt he was one, but he is not as high as Cheney. The sentence was edited because I sought to not focus on Bush and Cheney, and the public versus private Bush raised material I had addressed in Worse Than Watergate. But I cut too much. I have corrected the sentence to read in future printings: “While Bush does not appear to be a Double High, in fact, he is one; but he is not in the league of his vice president, who is a classic Double High…”
I was not able to follow the proceedings in the salon last week, but I suggested to Professor Bob Altemeyer that he might find the session of interest, and I was delighted to see that he jumped into the discussion at one point. Accordingly, I invited him to follow along today, for I would not pretend to be able to address his life’s work with anything approaching his authority. So I may call on him to address questions about his research work. And I want to add that in my travels with the book, I have had several psychologists, as well as a professor of psychology, tell me that I could not have found a better source on authoritarianism. He holds the esteem of his peers.
So let us begin. If I am unable to answer all the questions – while I type quickly I do so with remarkable inaccuracy so I will slow down to give my words some recognizable semblance to our language – I will review the transcript of both last week and this week later, and try to respond in a subsequent posting to questions still outstanding.



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Hooray for John Dean!!
Hooray for Glenn Greenwald!!
Hooray for accountability in government and an end to the NeoCons!!
HOORAYYYYY!!!
Mr. Dean, it is a huge honor for us to have you here.
My question is this:
Even if (when?) the Democrats take control of both houses of Congress in 2007, what do you think we can expect in the way of pushback from the right wing?
Do you believe that there are enough real conservatives left who can take the republican party back from the dangerous theocrats and NeoCons or will we just be forced to listen to a bunch of muted whining from the same old Fox News Republicans?
Welcome, Mr. Dean. It’s an honor to have you with us here in our community. I was fortunate enough to see an advance copy of the book. I hold a doctorate in psychology, and I want to thank you for making a compelling argument, a compelling case, in a way any thinking person can understand.
Welcome again to our community.
As always, folks, please confine the conversation and questions to the book and the topic at hand. Thanks! Please welcome John Dean.
I read “Conservatives Without Conscience” with interest and appreciation and a highlighter in my hand. For some time, I have been alarmed by the Republican Right’s obsession with hierarchy (power over), and John Dean’s lucid account of authoritarianism provides a good deal of explanation for it. The part that I still have a hard time making sense of is this: the desperate – and I would say toxic – need for false narratives – as in, Coulter’s remake of Joe McCarthy, the far-fetched “Silent Coup” version of Watergate, fantastic Vince Foster murder scenarios, poor Paula Jones, etc. All “contrary to all known history, contrary to all evidence,” in Mr. Dean’s words. – Could you talk a bit more about how this fits within authoritarian patterns? Isn’t it authoritarianism gone off the deep end in some way that goes well beyond abdication of conscience to the ruler? I guess I am asking, why this need to create/adhere to such gross falsehoods? I can smell abject fear at the center of it; I just don’t get it.
As an individual, I have come to see that my ways of “going out of balance” teach me about myself…they are symptoms that point to cures. I am trying to understand authoritarian patterns in the same way. Is there anything we can learn from this apparent inclination to false narratives that can guide us in more effectively dealing with conservatism- run-amok?
Mr. Dean:
Welcome. I have not had time to read your book, but I will. I followed the discussion last week. I just want to tell you that I was in my late teens at the time of Watergate, and I watched the Senate hearings with great interest. You were a kind of hero to me, not because of your prior service to the Nixon administration, but because you came clean, and in the process helped save the country.
A very warm welcom to Glenn and Mr. Dean. We are thrilled to have you both.
I would like to offer this excellent point, raised by one of Glenn’s posters:
The Paranoid Style in American Politics, 1965
Richard Hofstadter
Left Wing Militia | 09.03.06 – 11:32 am | #
I just finished CWC and was left feeling quite disheartened. The characterization of authoritarianism — particularly the lack of self-awareness — is chilling. Can we just leave this 25% behind? They have become politically strong and as Trex points out above — they’re going to pushback.
Welcome, Mr. Dean, we’re delighted to have you here today. And thanks also to Professor Altemeyer, your comments in the discussion last week were most welcome. I think this book has already sparked one of the most lively debates we’ve had in the book salon, and it really resonates with many of the themes Glenn frequently explores in his work — the mindset from which the authoritarian cultists are operating. I agree with Glenn, this is a powerful and extremely important book. Quite a remarkable achievement.
Hi Mr. Dean:
Thanks for doing your best to save the country — TWICE! Any reflections on what has changed and what has not since I first saw you testifying before the Ervin Committee?
“Can we just leave this 25% behind? They have become politically strong and as Trex points out above — they’re going to pushback.”
As in, “no authoritarians or fascists here, look over there…islamofascists!”
Thanks for being here and for appearing on Olberman’s Countdown show. I bought but haven’t as yet read CWC (still in Fiasco)
Do you think Bush will pardon Libby and if yes, what do you think the timing will be?
neurophius @ 10
Because we know they have the marketing down perfectly to reach (scare) their crowd
TRex @ 2
Greetings to those of you visiting the FDL Book Salon. Let me address the first question. I believe there is a solid chance that Democrats will regain the House. (The Senate right now looks like it will be 50/50.) And if the Democrats gain control of the House I have no quesiton that John Conyers will begin impeachment proceedings.
But given the Bush/Cheney style, they will fight giving them so much as name, rank or serial number.
I’m being brought to tears here two days in a row. And not from laughing as usual, from the incredible humor brought here by so many. Tears of hope, I guess.
Yesterday Ambassador Joseph Wilson thanked us for our support. And now we can thank John Dean for HIS support. Of the constitution. Of the letter AND spirit of our laws. For making courage seem important to attorneys. I could go on. Thank you, John Dean! I’ve been an avid reader of your columns and am looking forward to reading _Conservatives without Conscience_.
When you came out for honesty in the White House, I was so fed up with politics, I felt I’d never trust a politician or political staffer again. You helped keep me from wandering too far off the beaten path. You and Interior Secretary Walter Hickel both spoke truth to some twisted power back then. And you STILL are.
If you’d like, I’ll pass of a “hi” from you to Wally. He’s doing great.
“Control freaks” aren’t just discussed in women’s bathrooms these days, they are the face of the modern Republican party.
My question is this: How much of the fearmongering is based in a genuine fear of The Enemy, as opposed to being merely a cynical attempt to control public opinion through fear. We know that the public message is seen as “product,” so is this fear solely the product of those trying to maintain control?
J. Dean @ 13
Thank you for taking my question.
Mr. Dean: If Nixon hadn’t been busted (if the world you once knew hadn’t imploded), do you think your take on political reality would be markedly different?
John Dean– the voice of reason and a true patriot– I tried as a follower to conjugate a worthwhile sentence and then just decided to let it be and listen.
I thank you, sir.
John and Glenn – Good afternoon! John, I’m interested in your answer to a question I asked Glenn last week: in your opinion, what is the difference between authoritarian governments and fascist regimes?
At No. 4 the following question was raised: Could you talk a bit more about how this fits within authoritarian patterns? Isn’t it authoritarianism gone off the deep end in some way that goes well beyond abdication of conscience to the ruler? I guess I am asking, why this need to create/adhere to such gross falsehoods? I can smell abject fear at the center of it; I just don’t get it.
This might be a good one for Professor Altemeyer. It is my understanding that this type of behavior is very typical of authoritarians — they are so aggressive in pushing and protecting their worldview that they often are quite nasty when doing so. Given the fact they are setting the agenda, it is little wonder the narrative has turned ugly.
Victoria,
Whatever John Dean has to say about the false narratives you point to, I’d like to jump in and say there’s no necessary reason to point to authoritarianism as a driving cause of such narratives.
There are historical reasons/structural reasons going back to the “Illuminati Conspiracy” version of the French Revolution (the people of France lover their God-annointed King, it must have been a hidden Satanic conspiracy that done him in) and beyond, which are, IMHO, much better understood as being passively enabled by authoritarianism, rather than actively caused by it.
It’s one of the characteristics of authoritarian thought (though even more strongly of other forms of cognitive deficit) to want to attribute everything to a single cause, rather than grapple with a variety of interacting causes. We should take care not to mimic authoritarians in this respect, and expect authoritarianism to explain everything for us. It won’t. It can’t. It shouldn’t. It does throw a unique, and invaluable light on things, but it would miss the point to think it can explain everything.
Mr. Dean, are you as afraid as I am?
Edward – I agree completely – being able to communicate with the people we want, about the topics we want, without having to rely on mediation from the media or anyone else, is one of the greatest values of the blogosphere. Discussions like the one last week, the communications directly with Joe Wilson, is just one of the many reasons — though it’s a big one – why the previous gatekeepers are so threatened by the blogosphere.
J. Dean @ 13
Given you mention Nixon chose to follow the law, what do you think the implications for the US are if this happens? I understand better now why there have been so few “whistleblowers” despite the corruption/incompetence/rampant lawbreaking of this Administration.
At No. 11 the following was raised: Do you think Bush will pardon Libby and if yes, what do you think the timing will be?
I doubt he will pardon Liddy, but I will be surprised if he does not pardon Colson. (His brother Jeb pardoned Colson in FL so he could vote.)
At No. 8: Hi Jane, Thanks for your thoughtful words, and it is a delight to join you today.
Mr Dean.
You’ve said on more than one occasion that we are dangerously close to the road to fascism. Isn’t it true that we are much closer than you are willing to admit? If fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism, like Mussolini said, isn’t that precisely where we’re at? It seems that the corporate interests of the arms dealers and oil companies outweigh the interests of the common people and we are fighting these series of wars in the Middle East to serve their interests. I think it’s pretty obvious that Iraq has done nothing for our national security and has, in fact, made us considerably less safe by effectively recruiting and converting more extremists.
If possible, would you please respond to that?
Thank You.
Mr. Dean, I want to thank you for a really fine book. I’m not qualified to assess the psychological component, but I wanted to list some of my favorite parts, at least so far. I’ve skipped around a bit. Your entire preface, your experience of being “swift-boated,” was riveting.
From the section on “Conservatism’s Power of Negative Thinking:” p. 23 “Activist Judges are best described as those whose rulings run contrary to the beliefs of a particular conservative faction.”
As I suspect you are already well aware, Judge Bork is on what we call “wingnut welfare,” with Scooter Libby at the Hudson Institute. I was so pleased to see you mention Scooter’s “gainful employment”at the Hudson Institute on p. 182.
Your comments on page 27 on the internal contradiction for Roman Catholics who call themselves “anti-abortion,” and “pro-death penalty,” were brilliant in their simplicity.
I loved your comment on p. 28 that “Jesus was not a conservative.”
Your references to Hannah Arendt were inspiring. If you plan another edition, you may want to consider a footnote about her relationship with Heidegger before WWII and how she really rescued him after the War. She was a remarkable woman.
Again perhaps in a later printing, I was unclear about this at the bottom of p. 181 about James St. Clair: “When he found out that his client had lied to him he had two choices: to resign or to join the new cover-up. He was, as it happened, interested in participating in the latter.”
Bold is mine. From the prior positive statements you made about Mr. Sinclair, I thought you meant to write “former,” but perhaps I just misread or misunderstood some things.
The endnotes are a real treasure. I was very interested in number 75 on page 232 about the “Palace Revolt.”
Thank you so much for all your work and especially for your kind words to Jane in your eloquent opening. Jane has the “voice.” She, like you, is a true patriot and a national treasure.
Hi there, Mr. Dean,
I just finished reading your book, which you were kind enough to sign at your appearance in Berkeley recently.
As a psychologically oriented person, I was very interested to read about the Authoritarian personality — which finally explains my father (a Follower, not a “strict father” in Lakoff’s model — and you’re right that his theory has its limits) to me, after all these years!
Here’s the question that came up for me over and over as I read: don’t you think that JOE LIEBERMAN fits this personality type?
Mr. Dean,
When I was an adolescent, my mother and I would watch the Watergate hearings in the afternoons after I can home from school. We admired your honesty and the steely resolve of your pretty wife Mo sitting behind you in her chic blond chignon. Back then, my mother was a rational person. Since Fox News started broadcasting, she has become the sterotypical authoritarian follower and born-again fundamentalist Christian. She has converted my whole family with one exception-me. They are so different from me that we can’t stand to be in the same room with one another. When this whole thing is over, what is the possibility of getting them back? I’m in favor of a “truth and reconciliaation” commission like they had in South Africa. They still believe the lies and they are unshakeable. Is there any hope or will I have to find another family for the holidays? (I noticed they didn’t invite me for the picnics this summer and it’s starting to bother me.)
My question is a corollary to TRex’s: how does this crop of conservatives respond to defeat, should it come?
We’ve already seen instances of cultish cognitive dissonance with respect to Iraq, whereby failures are rationalised by core supporters and turned into vindications — is that psychology going to be replicated? Does a White House without a captive Congress start behaving like a cornered animal?
Welcome, Mr. Dean. I promise to buy the book when I have a little spare cash (32 months out of work puts a crimp on the budget), but I have to ask because I can’t determine from reading: did you happen to consult Eric Hoffer’s The True Believer in the writing of your book?
So much (although not all) of what Prof. Altemeyer has found was presaged in Hoffer’s book on mass movements.
Cheers.
J. Dean @ 26
Thanks for the response – As a child of a Durth heritage whose parents survived the nazis I think the parallels of the Bush administration to Germany of the 1930’s is frightening.
windje
This is not a question. A few years back I was a fresh kid just out of college. Or perhaps I should rather say, a few decades ago. I had a survivors job working the graveyard shift. Every morning, after my hour drive home down I-80 from Auburn to Sacramento in the morning, I switched the tube on and watched the Watergate Hearings. That was an interesting, but embarrassing time for America. Perhaps it is time for impeachment hearings again. For surely, if it was imperative that Nixon faced impeachment for his transgressions, (not to mention Bill Clinton) where no one died, then President Bush and VP Cheney should also face the American people for the lies which dragged us into Iraq. Where thousands have perished.
As a life long liberal Democrat, let me say, there were four heroes to come out of Watergate. Richardson, Ruckelshaus, Sirica. And last, but surely not least, John Dean. History sir, I believe will treat you with the respect you so richly deserve.
We have often talked here about ways to persuade our RWA acquaintances to try alternative ways to think about political and personal issues. You put the scale for authoritarian leanings in an appendix, and when I read it, I was struck by how obvious it seemed, how transparent it was what was being measured. I wonder if people who take the test are aware of what it is about, and how they would rate themselves before and after answering the questions. How do we go about encouraging that kind of self-awareness?
Welcome Mr. Dean
As a writer of a certain age who happened to be one of the (then) law students who camped outside the Supreme Court for the US v. Nixon oral arguments (and who also happens to still have his copy of Blind Ambition) my question, naturally, concerns the Judiciary.
You have talked at great length in your book about the authoritarian philosophers and followers in the Conservative movement today and about those who have gotten into the Executive and the Legislative branches. However, would you not agree that the biggest threat that we might face would be those authoritarians in the Judiciary? And as a follow-up, I’d like to hear your opinion as to whether we have any on the SCOTUS now and who you think they may be.
thanks much
At 15: My question is this: How much of the fearmongering is based in a genuine fear of The Enemy, as opposed to being merely a cynical attempt to control public opinion through fear. We know that the public message is seen as “product,” so is this fear solely the product of those trying to maintain control?
It is difficult for me to believe that the Bush/Cheney & Co. have not done some serious risk assessment regarding terrorism, and are well aware that this is not as big a threat to the nation as they would make it. This is not to say dealing with terrorists is not important, but it pales in comparison to what the nation confronted during the Cold War. Yet we managed to not toss out the Bill of Rights during those dark days. Rather we learned to live with the bomb.
The fearmongering is pure politics — and it is working very well for them, so far. In CWC I tried to lay out some coldly objective comparisons of risk, and terrorism is not very high on the list.
It is not clear to me why more has not been made of the fact that fearmongering feeds terrorism — and the terrorists win when they terrorize.
Welcome, Mr. Dean, and thanks for your great work. I’d like to ask a question that is the mirror image of this one:
Kak @ 7
What I wonder about is the 25% or so of voters who are not explicitly right-wing authoritarian followers, and yet give the GOP the votes it needs to win elections. What is it they are responding to in the authoritarian message, and how can they be pulled over to a saner point of view?
masaccio @ 35
Altemeyer reports that high RWAs are utterly clueless, and think themselves average. In fact, among the groups of dangerous outgroups they would volunteer to have rounded up is… themselves!
Hello Mr. Dean. I really appreciate your writing on these very important issues. My question: If Democrats regain control of the House and/or the Senate this November, what steps can they take to assert oversight and control over the Bush Administration’s authoritarian impulses?
At 17: Mr. Dean: If Nixon hadn’t been busted (if the world you once knew hadn’t imploded), do you think your take on political reality would be markedly different?
Good question. Obvously we are the product of our experiences and that was a very maturing experience. Had I not gone through it I might have had a rather unrealistic view of the way the world works. At the time I was in my early 30s, and I kept asking myself whether I understood how the game was played in the big leauges (and maybe decieving the public, covering up crimes, lying, and using the powers of the presidency for personal political advantage was the norm.) However, by telling my colleagues I would not lie for them, and being prepared to account for my own behavior, I believe I did find the real world.
EDITED BY SITE OWNER
Please stay on topic during book salon. Feel free to travel to the previous thread if you want to go OT.
Mr. Dean:
My question is about your interview on Reliable Sources this morning.
My impression was that Howard Kurtz: first, didn’t read your book, and second, deliberately misunderstood what you were trying to say about the hypocrisy and lack of accountability of the rightwing – specifically your example of Rush Limbaugh and his braying fans with the ‘drug user’ hypocrisy.
Kurtz seemed to be doing his very best to mischaracterize the points you made, trying to paint you as attacking Rush Limbaugh and rightwing pundits – which of course is not what you were doing and is completely missing your point.
What was/is your impression of Kurtz? And, do you think this inaccurate, uninformed interviewing is typical of the mainstream media today?
(by the way, Mr. Dean, I’m a big fan of your books and your columns – I’m so excited you’re here!)
Mr. Dean I respect you’re work and like much of what you say but you use to work for Nixon how do we know we can trust you?
J.Dean at 37: Thank you for your reply.
When Al Gore gave his speech at the DAR Hall in January, he made this observation:
Mr. Dean- what would you haved advised this President to do when he was crowned way back?
I think diplomacy works better than anything else. Am I wrong?
John – in your 2:26 pm reply (comment 37), you say that “The fearmongering is pure politics…”
Who in the administration do you think is responsible for promulgating the fearmongering you mentioned?
Grayson @
44
Have you actually read the book, or are you just needling?
Mr. Dean,
Delighted to have you here. The book salon has become one of the more important things we do here at FDL.
Your book is amazing. I have it well marked up. A couple of questions:
I would echo the question above about the authoritarians on the SCOTUS and add, what issues do you think we might expect them “acting out” over.
Also, I am almost done reading The Age of Anxiety by Haynes Johnson about the McCarthy implosion. The name James St. Clair comes up there as the first assistant to Joseph Welch in the McCarthy-Army hearings. It would seem that St. Clair was a curious choice for Nixon to pick to defend him. Have you any thoughts about why that happened?
Welcome Mr. Dean. I want to echo other sentiments about watching you during the Watergate hearings. I was absolutely glued because it was a real glimpse into the processes by which our government works, and it was a time for revelation about truth and accountability.
Given how much corruption we’re dealing with in the Bush administration, if there were investigative or impeachment hearings, do you think the truth would come out? And in this day and age, how does the mainstream media restore itself?
At 19: “what is the difference between authoritarian governments and fascist regimes?”
There have not been many true fascist regimes. The most notable, of course, are Hitler and Mussolini’s. Indeed, in my research I found there is little agreement among the experts as to elements of fascism. It is for this reason the term must be used carefully.
Unfortunately, once again, the Bush Administration is being fast and loose with language when they throw out the term Islamofascists. It is a meaningless term as they use it — other than it says we hate Islamic radicals. But it is very sloppy thinking.
My former White House college Pat Buchanan (with whom I occassionally but seldom agree) recently said we should imagine the reaction Christians would have had if FDR had declared Franco’s Spain and Mussolini’s Italy to be “Christo- fascist.”
J. Dean @ 13
That warms my heart — I wish I had your confidence. Conyers should just come out and say it. The Republicans including Byron York are as much as daring him to. Part of bringing down authoritarians is standing up to them.
Dear John Dean,
Greetings from a fellow College of Wooster alum! I actually saw you speak there back around 1980 in Lowry Center. I read your columns on FindLaw and am looking forward to this new book. You’ve been a hero to me for a long time. Thanks very much!
Hello Mr. Dean
Under what high crime and/or misdemeanor do you think?
Following up on Mr. Dean’s suggestion that I pitch my 2 cents into the discussion started by Victoria on No. 4, why do authoritarians need to create/adhere to gross falsehoods?
My research shows how well the question was posed, because there are the people who create the falsehoods and then the people who believe them and cling to them.
Authoritarian leaders will say, when answering a survey anonymously, that they are essentially amoral. They say for example that lying is justified if it gets you what you want, and one of the best skills a person should develop is the ability to look someone straight in the eye and lie convincingly. So I don’t know if the people who perpetrated the falsehoods you mentioned really believed them or not. But I have it from the horse’s mouth that authoritarian leaders will not hesitate to lie if it advances their cause. (We should realize, as Mr. Rosenberg points out, that they are hardly alone in this. But they may still be in first place in the Liar’s League.)
Authoritarian followers are quite a different story. First, they do pretty poorly on various “Can You Think Straight?” tests, compared to most people. They have trouble drawing logical conclusions from premises and from evidence. They are particularly given to wanting simple answers. They are not inclined to critical thinking unless their leaders have told them ahead of time whom to be critical of. And they trust their leaders so much (it comes with the territory when you’re an authoritarian follower) that they will believe the quite unbelievable when one of their authorities says it. They don’t check things that come down from on high, they just believe them. And studies show they are incredibly capable of holding all sorts of conflicting and contradictory ideas and explanations in their heads at the same time. Another thing that helps one understand the followers is that they are more afraid than most people, and disturbing events really disturb them. So they go to their authorities for reassurance, not facts or true explanations. I think this explains something about the current administration, namely how crummy its explanations have become. (”Islamofascism”?) I suspect that the “response teams” in the administration have learned that they don’t have to give sensible explanations of what went wrong, because they know their followers will believe virtually anything. And when people come along and point out the mistakes and misrepresentations and miserable untruths in the latest speech or press release, the last people on this planet who are going to read those criticisms or hear about them on the news they watch will the the high RWAs.
Profs give long answers, don’t they.
By the way, nobody who knows me calls me “Professor Altemeyer.” I’d be glad to be addressed here as “Dr. Bob,” which is my nickname on campus. It makes me feel much younger. I know, that makes me the 137th “Dr. Bob” you know.
Mr. Dean, this is not really related explicitly to the book, but I wanted to express my admiration and appreciation for your “second act” in America.
On the right, people wrap themselves in what is all too often a faux conversion experience in order to experience easy social redemption, and for us in the more reality oriented community, we don’t have such ready narratives for reformation and (social) redemption.
You’ve done your life’s work and learning in public, and travelled your journey of integrity through the hard, steady effort of public service. That’s not easy and it’s not very splashy, but it’s very real. I admire that a great deal.
Many people make mistakes in their lives, and for most of them, those mistakes are not the stuff of national headlines. For all that, you’ve travelled your road gracefully, and I’d like to thank you while expressing my genuine admiration and appreciation.
Jane Hamsher @ 48
I have read the book but the fact that Mr. Dean worked for Nixon has always bothered me and I’d like to put an end to that.
Mr. Dean,
I wanted to mention that during the 1970s I read a number of books about Watergate, and “Blind Ambition” was the most helpful to me in understanding what had happened.
My question is this: Who, if anybody, today, do you see standing as a true, nonauthoritarian conservative in the traditio of Barry Goldwater?
If you answered this in your book, I apologize. I promise to read it.
Dear Mr. Dean – See you in Phoenix in a little bit. Looking forward to it.
Hi Mr. Dean et.al.–
In your book, you make mention of how, as Watergate unfolded, the public was very slow to react. You’ve said many times that you believe the current administration’s actions are far worse than what we saw with Watergate, and we all know how slow public opinion has been to turn this time as well. Do you see any signs, among conservatives and Republicans that you know, that they are beginning to see how dangerous this administration’s authoritarian tendencies are? Is there any chance of seeing Bush, or any of his advisors/cabinet being ousted from office? Or do you predict that most Republicans will continue to remain loyal to Bush and keep attacking those who dare to point out his failed policies and possibly illegal conduct as unpatriotic all the way to 2008? And beyond?
At 21: “…there’s no necessary reason to point to authoritarianism as a driving cause of such narratives.”
Good point. However, I was responding to the question in the context of authoritarianism. But they by no means have a lock on distorted narratives, as you point out.
Pachacutec @ 56
Amen. Well said.
I’ve been picking at this same question in the past few weeks over at Orcinus, and am also very interested to hear any thoughts Mr. Dean might want to share on this point. My posts have been postulating that the current GOP base has a hard core of people who are serious, proabably life-long, RWA followers; and also a much larger and softer core of people like Portia’s mother, who weren’t always this way, but were brought around through decades of propaganda, economic stress, and other factors. My argument has been that, since they made the change once, they may be persuaded to make it again.
Mr. Dean: what do you think can or should be done to begin to move these folks back toward the reality-based world?
I, too, share the interest in the judiciary and its role in the controversies at hand. Watergate would have been far, far different had a judge other than Sirica been on the bench in DC. It would have been far, far different if a SCOTUS had not been unanimous in opposing an overreaching executive that tried to place itself above the law.
With that as background, the shape of the federal judiciary has shifted in the last 20 years, especially in the last six. As bad as an overreaching executive is, as frustrating as a lapdog legislative branch is, my greatest fear is a judiciary that follows in the authoritarian mindset CWC lays out.
Grayson @ 57
This is a book salon, not your own personal therapy session.
At 22: “Mr. Dean, are you as afraid as I am?”
No. Fear is a healthy response to a dangerous sitution but Americans still have control of their government — if they decide to exercise it. I certinaly hope they do. I have written for good reason that the ‘06 and ‘08 election cycles are vital for they will set the agenda for the 21st Century. I say that because we are a divided nation right now, and it could easily tip either way.
Mr. Dean,
We’re living in very frightening times. The Bush administration makes Nixon’s administration look like “so what”!! These people are truly dangerous criminals. Thank you for all you’ve done and continue to do to point that out. We’re very appreciative of anyone who comes forward to speak truth to power.
I watched with interest your appearance before the Senate this year, too. Lindsay Graham seemed a bit confused about your roll in the Watergate investigation. I was a bit surprised by that. Your testimony was courageous and inspiring, btw.
Thanks for that and for writing “Worse than Watergate” – it’s one of my favorite books. Haven’t read your new book yet – but looking forward to reading it soon. Keep up the great work!!!
Thank you for participating today, Mr. Dean, and for your book which lays it all out so clearly.
I think having such a relatively large fraction of the population (and an even larger fraction of the voting and politically-active population) accepting uncritically whatever nonsense focus-groups-well is very scary.
We have a republic if we can keep it (to borrow from Franklin). I’m worried that we won’t. Perhaps Dr. Bob has some insights into persuasion to reach them?
Dr Bob – your comments on the followers lack of need for logical reasoning is very helpful right now as we see the administration’s machine ratcheting up but seeming to have a very tin ear this time around … they know precisely who they need to speak to and how little they need to say to get their desired results. Frightening and fascinating. Thank you.
And special thanks for Mr Dean for visiting, this book and his integrity.
Ouch. Silly, silly question. Read just a small part of Mr. Dean’s intelligent and thoughtful and highly moral writing in the more than thirty years since Nixon.
I’ll ask a question, what do you think of the state of the Plame investigation? There seems to be a push in DC, from Republicans and the press, to say it’s all understood now and Armitage is to blame.
My question for Mr Dean is:
Regarding the present administration and its policies: What do you think history will show down the road? Will this indeed be the worst administration in US history? Can this cancer on the US political/democratic system ever recover? What will be the steps?
What do you see for the future in your crystal ball?
Thanks, Jane…
Mr. Dean:
Thanks for taking the time to be here with us today.
Are you currently doing a book tour, and if so is the schedule somewhere online?
Mr. Dean– can you please try to explain why the administration came up with the silly term Islamo- fascism just about the same time you proved to the world that we are enduring proto- fascism?
Thanks Jane.
In the CWC index, the only occurence of “neocons” is pages 20-21.
Predictably, the sentence described didn’t exist on either page.
Dr. Bob & Mr. Dean:
My question is simple: Research–such as Stanley Milgrim’s–shows that situational influences can be far more powerful than internal predispositions (ala RWA) in generating authoritarian behavior. To what extent do you think that a Democrat Congress (one or both houses) could further alter the national situation to lessen the external drivers of authoritarian behavior, and what sort of actions might do this? (I am, of course, a big fan of the truth and reconciliation model, but obviously we’re a ways away from being able to implement somethign like that.)
Thanks to both of you for a lifetime of public service.
At 27: “You’ve said on more than one occasion that we are dangerously close to the road to fascism. Isn’t it true that we are much closer than you are willing to admit? If fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism, like Mussolini said, isn’t that precisely where we’re at? It seems that the corporate interests of the arms dealers and oil companies outweigh the interests of the common people and we are fighting these series of wars in the Middle East to serve their interests. I think it’s pretty obvious that Iraq has done nothing for our national security and has, in fact, made us considerably less safe by effectively recruiting and converting more extremists.”
You points are well taken. Let me address the question of fascism. As I posted early, this is not an esay term to define. But basically (1) it is a philosophy that embraces a dictator, assisted by an organized hierarchy, who regiment society by violence, intimidation, and arbitrary use of power; or (2) a mass-based reactionary movement.
All fascists regimes have played a kind of hardball that we have never seen in this country, so while there can be incipient activities that smell of fascism — they are still a long way from true fascism.
In short, I don’t like to use such perjorative labels unless they truly fit, and that is why I used the analogy. Not only are we not on the road, we have not headed out the door toward the bus that will take us down that road.
The reason I wrote about authoritarianism is that it is, indeed, protofascist. And I worry that another 9/11 will result in more people being swayed by an authoritarian leader, who will say it is time to get in the bus, and head down that road to protect the security of the nation.
I suppose I’ve missed the party, but if it isn’t too late I do have a comment. As I read CWC (excellent book, BTW) my memory kept teasing me with a long comment (or short lecture) by Douglas MacArthur, of all people, in 1944 or so. I never did, though, dig out my copy of Manchester’s “American Caesar” to track it down.
To paraphrase from memory, though, MacArthur was responding to a subordinate named Sutherland (son of the reactionary Justice Sutherland of Schechter fame). Said Mac: even though the army of a disciplined totalitarian society will enjoy initial successes against that of an open society, in the longer run the open society will prevail. The very individualism that makes the early months so chaotic eventually makes the army the stronger, by encouraging innovation and initiative.
In the context of authoritarian Republicans vs. everyone else, what do you think? Will the domestic authoritarians’ inflexibility do them in, as it did the Spartans and the Nazis? Or are they sufficiently flexible to dodge this fate?
Thanks, and thanks for fighting the good fight.
If it weren’t for John Dean courageously doing the right thing, one can’t predict how Watergate would have been resolved. There has been no John Dean in the Bush White House, whihc is one of the reasons they have been able to get away with what they have.
If you judge someone based on what they did 35 years ago rather than recently, that says more about them than you. The dangerous dynamics Dean is describing transcend partisan affiliation — they are real threats to our country — and I think it ought to be welcomed when people of different ideological backgrounds recognize them and work against them.
Mr. Dean,
As I listened to Keith Olbermann’s takedown of Don Rumsfeld, I thought of you and this upcoming book salon conversation. Much of KO’s comments seem to resonate with your picture of CWC in the book. I’m curious about what you thought of Olbermann’s remarks, and (given that you and Rumsfeld were both part of the Nixon White House) how you think Rumsfeld and the Bush White House might be preparing to react to them.
Thanks!
Thank you, Dr. Bob, for your professorial answer. I expect to be dealing with these authoritarian patterns for the rest of my natural-born days, so am deeply grateful for your research and John Dean’s excellent, excellent book.
Couple of quick points before I pose my second question:
1) Jane is hot.
2) Glenn is brilliant.
3) John Dean is a true American patriot.
With that said, I think all this talk of regaining the House, and possibly the Senate, is virtually meaningless until we get control over those corrupt electronic voting machines. I know we don’t like to relive the Florida 2000 and the Ohio 2004 sagas, but what choice do we really have? It’s well known that these machines are extremely vulnerable (see my YouTube channel for videos) and it’s pretty well-documented (Robert Greenwald’s film and Conyers’ Congressional inquiry) that the last two elections were stolen — or to be more PC — highly “irregular”.
My question is: If we don’t get control of the machines that tally the votes, does it really matter who we vote for? 2000 and 2004 have “shown” how “wrong” exit polls can be. When are we going to wake up to this? If we don’t, nothing we say or do really makes much of a difference.
As a last point, Hastert now effectively decides who wins elections regardless of who the voters choose. What can we do about this?
Thank You.
I would like ask a variation on a question posed above:
If the democrats retake one or more houses of Congress, how does the Double High leader respond when challenged by an equal power, like a co-equal branch of government?
If, Bush or Cheney believe as you do, that a Democratic sucess in November, spells the beginning of impeachment proceedings (or at least of what the NYTimes is calling “crippling investigations”)what does the Double High do when facing such a threat to itself?
Glenn Greenwald @ 82
Thanks Glenn, bullseye, as per usual.
At 28: “Again perhaps in a later printing, I was unclear about this at the bottom of p. 181 about James St. Clair: “When he found out that his client had lied to him he had two choices: to resign or to join the new cover-up. He was, as it happened, interested in participating in the latter.”
Bold is mine. From the prior positive statements you made about Mr. Sinclair, I thought you meant to write “former,” but perhaps I just misread or misunderstood some things.”
Good catch. This was also on my errata sheet I sent my editior. (Not sure how that slipped by my eagle-eyed copy editor.)
Speaking of Olbermann and Countdown, I enjoy your commentaries on his show. He gives you the respect you deserve, unlike jerks such as Lindsey Graham.
John – Can you address the one or two most significant differents that makes this administration so much worse than the Nixon Administration in terms of its authoritarian abuses – both in terms of the leaders and followers.
Or Cornyn.
At 29: “don’t you think that JOE LIEBERMAN fits this personality type?”
As you know from the book, while there are authoritiarian personalities on the left, they are few and far between. But Lieberman is certianly not very far left. I am afaird I do not know enough about him to say, but given what I do know, I suspect he would test higher on the authoritarian scales than Barbara Boxer.
Mr. Dean -
I watched the Watergate hearings on my little black and white TV when I was in college, every second of them… unforgettable. And you are as heroic as they come, sir. No one knows better than you what kind of danger this country (and the world) is in right now.
Thank you for everything you did then and thank you for fighting now. We need you.
(I can’t believe I’m sharing a thread space with Mr. John Dean. Oh my.)
Sincerely,
Jenny
Mr. Dean,
Suppose the Dems take the House. Perhaps you could outline a few steps that you think might be helpful in pushing back this tide?
Thanks.
J. Dean @ 80
I know false-flag, state-sponsored terrorism is taboo in the left-wing blogosphere, but isn’t that something we should really be talking about? The evidence that 9/11 was (at least to a certain extent) was facilitated by our government (ignored warning, effective NORAD stand-down.)
I agree wholeheartedly that another 9/11 will change the political landscape dramatically. But shouldn’t we be concerned that Bush/Cheney weren’t interested in stopping the first one?
I have a video on my YouTube channel of Thomas Pickard — acting director of the FBI in the high threat summer of 2001 — testifying that Ashcroft told him that he “didn’t want to hear [of the al Qaeda threat] anymore.” Shouldn’t this alarm us?
Thank You.
Mr. Dean,
Following on the heels of other questions about the Dems taking back the House (oh please let it be so), do you think that the Dems. are sufficiently savvy to what they will be up against? ie, do they have the kind of psychological understanding to be able to successfully stand up to the double highs that you describe? And would you and Dr. Bob be able/willing to coach them through it if called upon?
Dear Mr. Dean:
What a privilege to have you here.
My question, you said at the Senate Judiciary hearings that unlike with President Nixon, President Bush’s desire for ever-increasing power is not meeting any resistance from the Congress. Do you see any change, any Congressional pushback, since the hearings?
Thank you for your service to our country.
Mr. Dean, thank you for your courage back in 1973 and for the efforts you are making now to explain what many of us need to remember and many more are too young to have seen.
Dr. Bob, hello again and thank you for your answers last week.
I think this may be a question for both of you: Dr. Bob for the theory and Mr. Dean for the fact.
How far can we expect RWA’s to go in defending their position? We have seen everything from ridicule to intimidation to wiretapping to imprisonment without due process, although not on a large scale. When we take on an authoritarian establishment such as the current administration, should we be prepared for tougher stuff? Martial law? Assassination? ‘Disappearances’?
I don’t know if I am being melodramatic or naive in even asking this question! Thank you for your time.
Dr. Dean –
I’ve heard numerous anecdotes about writers, activists, bloggers, and just ordinary citizens who — after publicly denouncing this administration and fighting to regain sanity in the civic sphere — have received nasty “feedback” from RWA’s. This includes things like vicious anonymous phone calls, threatening anonymous letters, etc.
Have you personally received an outpouring of venom from the very authoritarian followers you so courageously seek to expose? Do you believe as I do that most such bullies seek to intimidate, but rarely follow through on their threats?
[Thank you for you courage and outspokenness! You’ve inspired me ever since I started following your Findlaw articles and even more so with Worse than Watergate — this new book is on my wish list now. Your success with it is well deserved.]
“can you please try to explain why the administration came up with the silly term Islamo- fascism”?
Projection for innoculation.
At 31:”how does this crop of conservatives respond to defeat, should it come? . . . Does a White House without a captive Congress start behaving like a cornered animal?”
My reading of Professor Altemyer’s work suggests that when authoritians lose they simply redouble their effort to win next time. This is how they built the conservative movement for they certainly lost in 1964, and have been building ever since.
As for a Bush/Cheney White House without the protection of a compliant Congress, they will indeed become ruthless in fighting Congress. It could get very contentious.
Hotflash –
Thanks for your question — I think you said what I wanted to, but in a broader and much more articulate way!
“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged. “Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.”
“There is one difference,” I pointed out. “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.”
“Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
It works the same way in any country.”
I think the reason there are few if protests of the war is because there is no draft.
At 35: ” … I wonder if people who take the test are aware of what it is about, and how they would rate themselves before and after answering the questions. How do we go about encouraging that kind of self-awareness?”
I will defer to Dr. Altemeyer on this but it is my understanding that most who take the test do not know what it is about. Reading it in the appendix of my book it is pretty obvious. But if you honestly respond to the questions it will give you some idea of where you fall.
RevDeb @ 94
Great point. The Democrats have to engage and fight back effectively. The key is that last word. Iraq is becoming such a debacle (US troop levels are increasing, not decreasing) that the Rs may well lose regardless of what the Ds do. That does not necessarily provide an effective counter on other issues, though.
Mr Dean, It is an honor.
It is clear that the actions you took during the Nixon Presidency were instrumental in affecting the sea change that was needed to bring the country back from the brink at that time. Your actions resulted in creating the FISA court and instilling a process for accountability in secret surveillence of American citizens.
The media and Republicans have framed the current unconstitutional use of Administration eavesdropping of American Citizens to be a choice between security and liberty. The issue of acountability through the use of Warrants and judicial oversight has been avoided and thrown away, when that is the whole problem in the first place. The false choice of Liberty vs Security is perpetuated by the fact that no one in the public forum asks one simple question:
Without Warrants, how can you prove you are not spying on Americans for political cheating or blackmail or insider trading? The American public has not asked this question because they accept the premise of the title that the administration wants to give it..”The Terrorist Surveillence Program”.
I don’t think that we can expect the country to get behind asking the proper question until a highly placed administration official, such as you were during the Nixon Administration, comes out in the same way you did. Any other whistle blowers have been succesfully painted by the administration to be “Partisan” or “Leftists”.
I am not asking you to name names, but do you have an impression that someone in the administration might have the honesty or fortitude to come out as you did? Or has Cheney learned his lessons so well from the Nixon Presidency that he has insulated the Administration with true believers to the point that the only hope is an outside process like impeachment hearings?
Just to be able to ask you this question is an honor, and I think that you were one of the bravest individuals in modern American History for the actions you took during the Nixon Presidency.
Thank You.
At 36: “However, would you not agree that the biggest threat that we might face would be those authoritarians in the Judiciary? And as a follow-up, I’d like to hear your opinion as to whether we have any on the SCOTUS now and who you think they may be.”
I make only a passing reference to the Federal Judiciary in CWC because of its very authoritarian nature — given the concepts of stare decisis which influence our law (and judges). But there is no question there are a number of authoritarian personalities on the High Court, and probably the best example is Scalia, followed by Thomas.
One day I will look at the impact of authoritariansim on the courts, but its tricky and probably will not be of great interest to the general reader.
Mr. Dean, it is an honor,
Here in Utah last week, I happened to be out on a patio at a coffee shop when Bush’s motorcade sped past for him to speak at the American Legion conference. In leiu of a protest sign, I stood up and held your book over my head. I doubt he noticed.
Great book. Maybe Bush could add it to the 60 books he has read this year. Ahem.
Mr. Dean:
I’m sure you read all of Robert Paxton’s Anatomy of Fascism, since you cite it in your book. But I’m wondering how one can read that text and not come away convinced that we have indeed boarded the bus.
When you compare Paxton’s list of nine “mobilizing passions” that form the essence of fascism with the behavior of movement conservatism in the past six years, it’s hard not to notice that the resemblance is fleshing out rather fully.
As I noted in my blog posts on the subject, the only real components missing from the picture are the dictatorship and the violence, the latter especially constituting the bloody, beating heart of fascism.
What I’ve argued is that we are indeed on the road, but we are not there yet. I think movement conservatives are creating the necessary conditions for an eventual outbreak of the genuine article — and it may be a generation away yet, but looming nonetheless.
John -
Thank you very much for your reply to my first question.
Since I haven’t read CWC yet, I don’t know whether you have discussed therein how the political philosophies of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld have changed through the years since they served in the Nixon Administration.
Given Dick Cheney’s penchant for expanded presidential power, why, in your opinion, has he never run for president?
In response to No. 68, how do you persuade the true believers that they have made a mistake? I don’t know of any way. They DO move sometimes on issues. They are conformists in many ways and when they find out their attitudes are very different from what most people think, they will sometimes shift just to “disappear” in the crowd. But high RWAs show an astounding dogmatism in various experiments I have run, and if you try to persuade them with history, facts, evidence, logic, and “win” every point, they will just go into their last defensive position and say, “The people I trust don’t think so, and neither do I. Nothing you can say will change my mind.” (One of the items on my Dogmatism scale, which high RWAs agree with as a group, is, “There are no discoveries or facts that could possibly make me change my mind about the things that matter most in life.” And they mean it.
Paul Rosenberg asks the mere impossible: What could a Democrat-controlled House/Senate do to lessen the external drivers of authoritarian behavior?” It’s easier to say what than how. It would help a great deal to lower the country’s level of fear. It might help to show how unwise it is to place a great deal of faith in authorities. It would help to appeal to our commonalities rather than follow along in dividing the country. It would help to emphasize the values that lay at the core of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Nobody asked me this, but I am always impressed by John Dean. He truly has done his country a great service with his st
and on these issues.
J. Dean at 107
Point taken, but think of all the 1L students that would eat it up.
At 38: “What I wonder about is the 25% or so of voters who are not explicitly right-wing authoritarian followers, and yet give the GOP the votes it needs to win elections. What is it they are responding to in the authoritarian message, and how can they be pulled over to a saner point of view?”
I didn’t mean to pass over leaving the 25% behind in the earlier question, but that is exactly what must happen. As you know from CWC, few of them will change their mind. You are addressing the rest of those needed to get a majority — and GOP rule. I am addressing these people too in CWC. Not everyone, I hope, will become an authoritarian follower if they appreciate what they are doing; if they look at their fears that might make a father-figure authoritarian leader seem appealing, and hopeful others like yourself telling people what science shows they are doing.
So yes, I am hopeful some of these people can be reached.
Re: Kak at 104–
My read on the authoritarian followers (at least the softer core) is that they tend to follow wherever they feel someone’s generating a level of strength they can trust. If we get Dems in place who are aren’t afraid of strong talk and bold proposals, I think we might have a better chance of getting their attention.
They see ambiguity as weakness, and hate us for it; and our current Dem leaders don’t know how to be anything but ambiguous. If we want to capture their attention, that has to stop.
We’ve forgotten that there are things people on the progressive side can absolutely argue from a position of extreme moral certainty and strength. Liberal leaders used to do this routinely.
Al Gore was correct, of course, to point out that the Constitution was in far more danger in 1814 or 1861 than ever in 2001, and that we weathered those events without making the President a dictator.
But, something I’ve been thinking about for a few days is that the Framers themselves, at the time both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were adopted, had terrorists on their very doorstep! I refer to the American Indians. Families anywhere near the frontier daily faced the possibility of what Publius called “depredations” by “savages,” (Fed. #24) and we would call a terrorist attack.
Nowadays, we’re more sympathetic to the notion that the Indians were defending their homeland and way of life, and they had a right to do so. We also know that our side perpetrated more than their share of massacres, too. But by the isolated perspective of a pioneer settlement, it was terrorism. In proportion to population, sometimes Indian attacks were on par with 9/11. Figure: back then, there were about 3.5 million Americans. Now, there are close to 300 million; a ratio of 85:1; an Indian massacre of 35 people back then would be equivalent to about 3,000 today. (I wouldn’t bet the farm on the validity of this strict proportion, but it does give an indication of the magnitudes.)
The Framers deemed the Indian tribes nations. As nations, sometimes the Indians waged war against the European settlers; they’d gather, deliberate, come to a decision, and fight as an army. Many other times, however, a few angry young men would lash out and attack an isolated farm. As non-state-sponsored violence, it was terrorism.
People who pretend that the Framers didn’t know terrorism are at best wrong, wrong, wrong.
Dr. Bob – thanks for answering my question. Your response reminds me of a family member who ends our discussions (disagreements) “George Bush is a good man.”
I appreciate your insight on conformity. We just have to change what that is (ha!)
— Kak
dratty @ 113
Point taken, but think of all the 1L students that would eat it up.
I’d like to disagree. I think it might be “technical” or “difficult to write to do justice to the subject and be accessible to the reader” but I wouldn’t call it “tricky.” Somehow, with all the Nixon-era memories this thread is bringing up, “tricky” is a word I associate with the actions of Mr. Dean’s former boss, not with the (possible future) actions of Mr. Dean himself.
And I think it would be of great interest to the general reader – you don’t have to be a lawyer to appreciate and understand the value of an independent judiciary willing to stand up to authoritarians.
Please, please, do take up this project soon. You might be surprised at how well received it might be.
Bob Altemeyer @ 109
Professor Altemeyer, so happy to see you here again this week.
How to persuade them: gradually, and with respect for their positions.
I grew up near Cincinnati and know a lot of conservatives. They WILL change their mind about this administration but only slowly, and only if they feel they are being respected and loved, not despised and demeaned.
The men I talk to about politics are particularly touchy. It is painful, almost shameful, to admit that you might be on the wrong side. Probably most of us here went through a painful experience coming to understand the truth about the Iraq War and the administration in general.
Thank you for your terrific work, hope to hear from you again soon.
At 40: “If Democrats regain control of the House and/or the Senate this November, what steps can they take to assert oversight and control over the Bush Administration’s authoritarian impulses?”
Since there has been zero oversight much can be done. In fact, I am told that the White House is interviewing attorneys in Washington to bolster the Counsel’s office staff, because they want to fight all efforts at oversight. But there are limits on what they can do when faced with subpoenas from congressional committees, because at some point they will find themselves in contempt of Congress (which can be taken to court to force the issue) and go to jail.
Sonoma @ 111
Sonoma, you’re wrong.
Every word Mr. Dean types will be reviewed strenuously by people who scored very high on their SAT’s and really hate him. Think back to Mr. Soros’ discussion. He answered very few questions.
If you had taken the time to read Mr. Dean’s intro Sonoma, he’s committed to answering all questions asked, whether he gets to them in the time frame allotted or not.
Mr. Dean, this is a privilege and a pleasure to read your erudite answers. Please take your time and enjoy yourself.
Mr. Dean, thank you so much for your books. I have CWC on audio and it travels in my car with my. I’ve become quite adept at pulling over rather than crashing into fellow travelers as you make great points. My question would be a variation of TRex, in that the pushback will come but is there a historical trend to look for as the act of pushing back once Dems regain a balance in Congress. In other words, who will these figures and their attacks morph into?
How much of what is being discussed is a direct product of 9/11? It seems pretty clear that there are legions of people who cast aside traditional conservative values (state’s rights, individual liberties, fiscal conservatism, smaller government &c.) as a reaction to the terror of the event.
In other words, has this been a steady arc since Goldwater’s defeat, or an unpleasant but relatively recent shift (possibly beginning at the end of the Cold War)?
John Casper speaks for me.
I am jumping into this very late, but I want to say that it is honor to “see” you here today, Mr. Dean. I was one of those teenagers who was initiated into American Politics during the Watergate Hearings. I learned some important lessons then, which have stood me well as I have moved through my adulthood.
And your book is wonderful and an important resource. I have already bought 3 copies for friends and family!
Reading Mr. Dean’s book and following along with the commentary last Sunday and today, it really highlights for me what I have read is Rove’s underlying tactic –
preach to those who are not paying attention, who are the true followers, and do not lose them. They do not care one wit if they lie and then the next day that lie is exposed — because the people they want to reach believed it totally the first time.
And this preaching by way of direct mail is very much under the radar. They are not trying to persuade many of us, or even most of us. Just the truly corporate minded, the true followers as so well described here, and those too busy to find out the facts.
Mr. Dean – do you believe there are enough new media outlets to counter the mind numbing propaganda they are spewing and will flood our airwaves with in the next 2 months?
J. Dean @
37
I doubt that Bush/Cheney Team has done a serious risk assessment of anything — their incompetence in dealing with everything except accruing power unto themselves is a big part of why the public has soured on them.
A serious assessment of the risks of occupying Iraq would have stayed the hand of rational actors — for BushCo, it was a cakewalk and another opportunity for their cronies to loot the Treasury.
Corruption and Authoritarian fear mongering are the only core competencies of the Bush/Cheney Administration — their manifest incompetence at everything else may be our only saving grace.
Stuart Eugene Thiel @
115
EXACTLY!
And yet, not a single solitary politician, Democrat OR Republican makes that argument. WE have made that argument out here in the blogosphere for three years, but it is like preaching to the choir. How do we break through the firewall of corporate ownership of the MSM or the Corporate ownership of the Beltway establishment to shout this from the mountaintop? It is a message of courage and reinforcement of the true ideals upon which our nation was founded, and it seems to me would register well in those authoritarian personalities that need to “Follow”…..
But nobody has made that connection in the media. Will you make that connection in the media Mr. Dean?
Would you care to comment on possible impeachment hearings for any reason in connection with any actions or decisions that President Bush may have taken?
John Caspar: For every question Dean has answered, 3 have been posed. Of course he can’t answer them all, willing though he may be. I had hopes of spurring his replies along, that’s all.
Your a scold and a busybody.[Moderator: play nicely! ]I would just like to say how much Valerie and I have appreciated Mr. Dean’s insights in both this book and Worse than Watergate. They have helped understand our own Alice in Wonderland experience with these people. Thank you Mr. Dean. Joe Wilson
Mr. Dean,
One of the most interesting premises that you offer in the book is about Dick Cheney rising to the level of his incompetence. I don’t know that I have heard, seen or read anything anywhere else that talks about that. It was stunning to me.
Do you have any further thoughts on that premise that have arisen since the book was published?
And I add to everyone else’s appreciation for your integrity and your work. My memories of watching the Watergate hearings are mostly of Rep. Barbara Jordan who was a lioness. She is sorely missed.
Dr. Bob,
What that was a buzzkill. It looks like I will be permanently estranged from m y family because I can’t accept their religion or political views and they will never accept mine. Is tolerance possible under the circumstances? It would be a shame if we never saw each other again but it’s tough being around people who are so disrespectful and self-righteous.
GrandmaJ @ 126
“If you tell a lie big enough
and keep repeating it,
people will eventually come to believe it.
The lie can be maintained only
for such time as the State can
shield the people from the political,
economic and/or military consequences
of the lie.
It thus becomes vitally important
for the State to use all of its powers
to repress dissent, for the truth is
the mortal enemy of the lie, and
thus by extension,
the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
– Joseph Goebbels, Propaganda Minister, Third Reich
Joe Wilson @ 131
Thank YOU, Mr. Wilson. And Valerie, too.
At 43: “What was/is your impression of Kurtz? And, do you think this inaccurate, uninformed interviewing is typical of the mainstream media today?”
I taped that interview in July, and thought they were not going to use it. As I recall, Kurtz told me off camera that he had not been able to closely read the book, which is understandable for reporters with a regular beat like he has with the Washington Post. So that did not bother me.
He was pretty aggressive in his questioning, which is not the norm for a soft-ball show like his, but I actually enjoy. Indeed, he said after the interview that I was obviously not troubled the slightest by his questions. He said something to the effect, “You’ve been doing this awhile, haven’t you?” To which I responded, “Only about 30 years.”
Not all the mainstream media is so loose (uninformed is your word and not inaccurate) in their questioning. And on this tour I made a mental note and found that those on the right (with a few exceptions) don’t read books before they interview authors, while those on the left (with a few exceptions) do read them carefully before they interview an author. Nor reporters are better than those at the NPR stations, for radio, and local TV reporters tend to read the book before interview.
Stuart Eugene Thiel @ 116
Interesting point, and valid in my opinion, because this fear is about the self-indulgence of fear of The Other, not about rationally considering who or what is specifically to be feared.
I recommend strongly the thin book “Waiting for the Barbarians” by the Nobel winner J.M. Coatzee. It treats this subject wonderfully. It will make you cry for what harm is being done to our country, even though the book was written 26 years ago.
Welcome again, Ambassador Wilson, and let me express my admiration and appreciation of you and your wife.
Mrs. Robinson @ 3:29 pm
“They see ambiguity as weakness…”
How do they perceive uncertainty? How do they react to the plethora of vicissitudes this fast-paced world has to offer? They seem to react by turning to those who may be least able to adapt to rapid changes – their authoritarian leaders whom they choose to follow.
Sonoma @ 128
Yeah, but I read his intro:
J. Dean @
37
The importance of this point cannot be overstated!
I live in NYC. I saw the WTC burn and crash –live– in real time, with my own eyes. Everyone who was here that day was traumatized.” In the last election, NYC went for Kerry by over 80%. Most people I know are not afraid of terrorism, except “conceptually.” We know that it is more important to “live well” now, rather than to worry and fret about a terrible maybe.
We need to say it often and say it loud. Bush-Cheney Co are FEAR-MONGERS.
” It is not clear to me why more has not been made of the fact that fearmongering feeds terrorism — and the terrorists win when they terrorize.”
Amen. It seems obvious to me that Bush’s policies and pronouncements have, inadvertently of course, actually furthered the cause of the terrorists.
wow. John Dean and Ambassador Wilson, online at once. Thank you, gentlemen, for your service.
Mr. Dean, could you elaborate a bit, in light of David Neiwert’s post at #108, why you don’t think we’re on the bus to fascism?
http://www.ThankYouValerie.com
You too, Ambassador!
tommy yum @ 136
Thank you. As I said yesterday, it is we who are so appreciative of your efforts to insist on integrity in the system. Without the blogs, netroots, and the efforts of people like John Dean, we would have been utterly destroyed.
Sonoma @ 128
I cannot believe that some spoiled brat who can’t get his/her questions answered fast enough to suit their schedule, decides its fine to ’spur’ AN INVITED GUEST along and then, when called on it, decides, rather than to realize just how rude he/she was, to start calling names.
It’s a good thing that Sonoma isn’t on line at a book signing or I guess we’d all have to duck.
Thank you for joining us today Mr. Dean, Dr. Bob, and to Mr. Greenwald. It is such an honor having you here.
I have a simple but obvious question for Mr. Dean. Now that your latest book is finished do you have a Web site, or any plans on starting a blog and joining us in the blogoverse to continue the much needed thorough dialog on these important subjects as they continue to unfold?
Kinda wild-hare idea, but how ’bout delivering a copy of CWC to every sitting and incoming Democrat after the November elections. Win a majority or not, it’ll help them understand just what kind of toxicity they have to deal with. Kinda like went down with CTG (I think I remember aright). I know I’ll kick in to a general fund for this (my Rep. is Bill Young. Hopeless.)
I haven’t read the book. I am an imposter here. However, I was alive and in college in 1972-73, and I hung on every word of the Watergate hearings.
I was out of the country during the mess with Iran Contragate, but it all sounded weirdly familiar.
And here we are today. The young men of the 70’s and 80’s have grown older and more powerful, having learned how to get away with more than their predecessors could have dreamed.
I am glad you are here today to shine a bright light on them.
Thanks.
re: 116 and 136:
Bruce Schneier recently made the point that terrorism is hardly new — in fact, it’s so old that there’s an entire body of international law that’s evolved over centuries just to deal with it.
Stateless actors committing wanton acts of destruction against civilians? Wars that went on for decades, without formal declarations and outside the agreed-upon conventions?
Oh, hell yes — the Founders were well-acquainted with this. They called them pirates, and prosecuted them under piracy law — much of which, per Scheier, is extremely applicable to our current situation as well.
Joe Wilson @ 132
It’s a pleasure to see you join the discussion, Ambassador Wilson. It’s a shame that such honorable and honest people such as yourself and Mr. Dean are demonized by this rogue administration. I hope your lawsuit is successful. You deserve retribution.
Tell your lovely wife I say hello. :)
Genug, kinder, genug !
Amb. Wilson,
It is an honor to be in your “presence” again. You and your wife have been nothing but true patriots and have shown the grace under fire that the folks on the other side can only dream of and will never understand.
Thank you both for your service.
I have a very uneducated comment but one I have personal experience with –
We have often talked that the “D.C. dems” act like a battered spouse — Mr. Dean and Dr. Bob, is that a statement both or either of you could agree with? I don’t understand why they don’t fight back harder.
At 44: “Mr. Dean I respect you’re work and like much of what you say but you use to work for Nixon how do we know we can trust you?”
I will let my record speak for itself. I believe I was the only person to try to tell Nixon how much trouble he was in before it was too late. I have tremendous respect for the office of the POTUS, regardless of who holds that office. I did my best to get Nixon to the right thing, and when he didn’t, I decided I was going to. It was not even a close call for me.
I believe that the fact that I worked for Nixon gave me insights into how the presidency should not work, and I have tried to use that knowledge to point out when other presidents are making the same mistakes.
I would not be inclined to ask anyone to trust me, rather I would have my actions over the past three-some decades speak for me.
It’s a pleasure to see you join the discussion, Ambassador Wilson. It’s a shame that such honorable and honest people such as yourself and Mr. Dean are demonized by this rogue administration. I hope your lawsuit is successful. You deserve retribution.
Tell your lovely wife I say hello. :)
I will certainly convey your regards to Valerie. She appreciates compliments as much as the next person.
J. Dean @ 134
FWIW, I reviewed over 300 books from 1996 through 2001 (starting with Moral Politics for the Christian Science Monitor). I rarely heard back or had contact with authors of books I reviewed, but when I did, a disturbingly high number of times they praised me for having read the book. Most reviewers, I heard over and over again, obviously had not.
Print reviewers, of course, get paid almost nothing, and must do a lot of other things to make a living. Radio hosts are significantly better paid, and should have more time to actually, you know, do their job. It’s heartening that at least some of them still do.
John Dean, Ambassador Wilson and Dr. Bob–all at once.
I feel I should have dressed up more.
Maybe worn pearls?
Seriously, gentlemen let me add my thanks and express my admiration for what you have, what you are doing, and what I suspect you may do in future.
Ambassador Wilson, John Dean, Professor Altemeyer,and Glenn Greenwald all here at fdl…we are indeed fortunate.
Gentlemen: What are two or three things that we ordinary folk can do to help our nation?
Thank you.
I worked all day and sat up all night, propping my eyelids open with toothpicks, to watch the Watergate hearings. John Dean is an American hero. And Barbara Jordan… Thanks for continuing the fight, Mr. Dean. It’s an honor to be in the same chat with you.
Shez @ 145
Shez,
Mr. Dean can be found regularly at http://www.findlaw.com posting provocative articles that take on legal issues of the day.
It is really sad to think that 25% of our fellow citizens cannot be expected to participate in our democracy in an adult manner, as is stated in ##39, 103 and 113. It feels elitist, but I haven’t seen any good alternatives here, despite the best efforts of Peterr and others.
At 47: “Who in the administration do you think is responsible for promulgating the fear mongering you mentioned?”
If we every get the papers of this presidency, we may know for certain. My feeling, based on what I do know and my understanding of the way things work, is that there is a clear consensus in this White House that this is the best way to win elections. So they are using it.
A better way to understand it is the fact that the president has not put a stop to it, for he could if he wished, and that would be the end of it. So Bush is the person responsible for it.
J. Dean @ 153
Let me add my own views on what John Dean just said. That we may disagree on the appropriate direction to move the country — have political differences — is what democracy is all about. We have a clash of ideas, we debate, we compromise, we move forward. We can and must do so honestly if we hope not to pervert and ultimately subvert the system. When the integrity of the system is threatened we need people like John Dean to step forward and call foul. We need that now more than ever.
One final thought: neither party has all the wisdom on matters of public policy. We need the debate to frame the decisions and to keep this the greatest system of governance yet devised.
(I can’t believe both Mr Dean and Mr Wilson are here today either!)
Mr Wilson, I want to thank you personally for the courage it took for you to write that o-ed in the NY Times. Citizens deserve to hear the truth from their elected leaders, and when they don’t fulfill their obligations, we rely on our fellow citizens — like you and Valerie — to help us hold our leaders accountable.
I know it has been hard for both of you, but you should know that many many Americans are greatful to you for your sacrifice.
Joe Wilson @
153
And she is deserving of many.
Stephen @ 138:
Yours is such a good question that I actually sent myself back to grad school to try to answer it.
I’m a social futurist, and my main area of academic inquiry is looking at authoritarianism as a reaction against change. A lot of tech futurists are intoxicated with the accelerating rate of change we’re seeing now, and postulating that it will increase exponentially in the next 50 years. I’m looking at their j-curves and thinking: There are going to be a lot of people damaged, frightened, and left behind in the wake of this. And that may indeed create the conditions for an authoritarian rebound (on several fronts — political, economic, religious, and so on) — one that, at its worst, could conceivably bounce the whole planet right back to the Dark Ages.
I’m not saying that’s going to happen; but there’s a lot to support the scenario; and yeah, it makes me nervous, too.
As yet another child of the Watergate summers, I feel honored to be sharing airspace with Mr. Dean. But the biggest thanks are for introducing me to Dr. Bob and his work, which answered quite a few questions I had — and led to many, many more. (Dr. Bob: If you ever get out to Vancouver, it would be my honor to buy you lunch.)
Bush will be out of office in January of 2009. Unfortunately the Federal judges he has nominated and the Senate has confirmed will allow the authoritarianism so lamented to live on long after he’s gone. While their is an obvious authoritarian strain of the brain in the two headed Bush Cheney beast and all efforts are appreciated in changing the legislative personas in the coming election, what we have seen happen in the judiciary not just on the level of the Supreme Court will be the sad legacy of these last eight years.
Our institutions themselves are infected with this authoritarian strain. Are we coming out of it finally five years after September Eleventh, September Eleventh TM?
At 50: “Given how much corruption we’re dealing with in the Bush administration, if there were investigative or impeachment hearings, do you think the truth would come out?”
Much truth is out. We know they have little respect for the law, and are willing to violate it. Two horrible examples make the point: warrantless wiretapping and torture. The more important question is whether they are going to be held accountable? Or will their usurpation of the law because the new standard for future presidents, who only have say “this is national security” and “I am commander-in-chief”?
Per everyone else Ambassador Wilson, great honor to have you on any FDL thread. All our best to your lovely wife Valerie too.
J. Dean @
152
Your decision was a momentous one, and we as a nation are in your debt.
timewarp @ 163
Thanks. I always saw it as a civic duty rather than as an act of courage. I must say the recent resumption of attacks, including the editorial in the wapo may well discourage others from exercising their civic responsibility for fear of not just administration attacks but also unwarranted attacks from an otherwise supine press. By the way we cancelled our subscription to the Post on the grounds that if the editorial board did not see fit to read the reporting in its own paper, why should we.
Ambassador Wilson,
Truer words were never spoken. Any intellectually honest person/regime should welcome the ideas of others, if only to make sure that nothing has been overlooked. It is in the clash of ideas that the positions on each side are honed and made stonger and more brilliant and, more often than would seem likely, consensus might be reached.b
Valerie and I are off. A tip of the hat to John Dean, Glenn and the others who put this forum together today. Thanks.
I want to chime in and also say that, Mr. Dean, I have always admired you for your courage and for your continuing contributions to an essential national discourse. We live in dangerous times, and it needs to be pointed out.
Mr. Greenwald, you are one of the most important articulate voices of the progressive movement today, and sometimes I am awestruck by your insight, and that is not a word I use often or lightly.
Mrs. Robinson at 165 implies that authoratarionism may be a reaction to change. Well, as someone who’s old enough to remember actual dial telephones and Alvin Toffler’s “Future Shock” I ought to be a raging conservative. It may be the FEAR of change…??? I was raised to think that new things were exciting, and could be worked into an already-existing moral and philosophical framework.
Mri. Wilson, I need to put you on the list. Thank you for your courage and honesty.
That was rather shocking. When anyone figures out what kind of pathology Hiatt issues forth from, they’ll have quite the treatise on their hands.
Marion in Savannah @ 175
I think that acceptance of authoritarianism is the reaction of some people to change they fear and do not understand. The authoritarians play on that fear, by offering a semblance of safety and comfort to people who feel out of their depth and deeply threatened by it.
The Bush administration has taken that farther by in many ways creating the fears that they are then playing on.
Having spent the past two hours in the company of John Dean, Dr. Bob, Glenn Greenwald, Ambassador Wilson and his wife, and many thoughtful FDL commenters, I feel…well, elevated.
At 58: “Who, if anybody, today, do you see standing as a true, nonauthoritarian conservative in the traditio of Barry Goldwater?”
That is not something I have thought a great deal about. I am sure there are any number of people who would fit the bill. One that comes to mind, based on what I know of him, is Senator Chuck Hagel.
Joe Wilson @ 172
Mr. Wilson and Ms Plame, here’s a *very* respectful FDL 707!!!
looseheadprop @ 172
I whole heartedly agree with both of these statements.
Mr Wilson,
Do you see the perversion of the grand argument that is the foundation of Democracy to be one of an ideological stalemate, or is it rather that the ideological arguments are mearly being used as a vehicle to accomodate the need to be in power to facilitate the corruption of the government, and to line the pockets of the corporate class?
masaccio @
159
Back in 2004, Reason magazine had an article where the author went so far as to declare conservatism a psychopathology, and suggested stripping the right to vote away from anyone suffering from it.
At the time I thought that was rather silly hehe…but over the last several months, I’ve been thinking about it quite a bit. Seriously thinking about it I mean. Full article here
Mrs. Robinson @ 165
Historically, the origins of modern liberalism are precisely in creating a social structure and value system capable of buffering such shocks.
Conservatives have traditionally attacked liberals as being the cause of social dislocation, but the record is clear–see, in particular, the development of religious tolerance as a coping mechanism to deal with near-genocidal religious warfare–liberals have not been the cause of social distress so much as they have been promoters of new means to absorb and manage it.
I would like to add my voice to those thanking Dr. Bob, Mr. Dean and Amb. Wilson for being here.
I finished CWC three weeks ago, and I am glad to have been introduced to the studies and writings of Dr. Bob. (Having studied genocide for the last 12 years I’m not sure how I missed them).
I hope that Mr. Dean is correct, and that we as a country aren’t even near the road to fascism, never mind heading down that road. Having studied a bit of history, it has helped me be ’steady’, knowing that things have been worse, and we’ve survived.
But living through this behavior by our elected officials and some of our citizens is still quite a shock. I hope that we are able to reach people, and to help them understand that the Bush way isn’t the way to a safe and stable and democratic U.S. (or world).
By the way we cancelled our subscription to the Post on the grounds that if the editorial board did not see fit to read the reporting in its own paper, why should we.
It was outrageous!!
It looks like BushCo is setting the stage for a pardon for Libby. I hope not.
I read a comment this morning at Atrios site – there should be law that a president cannot pardon someone in his own administration.
Is there such a law? If not there certainly should be one!
Mr. Dean,
In Glenn’s initial review of your book he said: A healthy skepticism is warranted with regard to the ability of social science data to reveal truths about political movements.
His sentiment seemed to echo the “hard science – soft science” debate. My impression from your book was that the synthesis of the scholarship, soft science though it be, coupled with your singular personal experience constituted a case where the whole far exceeded the sum of the parts. It seemed to me that the work of Altemeyer helped you see the extent and truth of your experiences.
Was Glenn a little too quick to skepticism about the social science in his review?
–
Ambassador Wilson, I was wondering if you would be willing to share your thoughts on the recent revelations that Richard Armitage was responsible for outing your wife. I know you probably don’t want to get into it too much (and rightfully so), but it seems, like another poster pointed out, that Armitage is being scapegoated for Karl Rove’s sake. Is there anything you would feel comfortable adding on these recent developments?
Also, as Jack Cafferty would say, “it boggles whats left of my mind” that the WH and RWA’s can demonize the NYT and other responsible media outlets for “damaging national security” when your wife, who they didn’t think twice about exposing for pure political purposes, was doing vital work in the area of WMD proliferation. The hypocrisy is astounding.
Thank you and it’s a pleasure to have you here.
For those of you who missed it, our own Mrs Robinson spent much of last month writing staggeringly great prose about the roots of authoritarianism while she was guest blogging for David Niewert at Orcinus.
We have not acknowledged her expertise today, but in fact, she is brilliant.
Mike @ 186
I’m Not Surprised
September 01, 2006
by emptywheel
At 60: “Do you see any signs, among conservatives and Republicans that you know, that they are beginning to see how dangerous this administration’s authoritarian tendencies are? Is there any chance of seeing Bush, or any of his ad visors/cabinet being ousted from office? Or do you predict that most Republicans will continue to remain loyal to Bush and keep attacking those who dare to point out his failed policies and possibly illegal conduct as unpatriotic all the way to 2008? And beyond?
I know many conservatives who have had it with Bush & Co. More and more they are speaking out. I doubt Bush will either let go his key advisers, nor will any voluntarily leave. While impeach proceeding could begin in the House, I do not see this president being found guilty by the 2/3rd of the Senate. What Democrats must be careful about is not doing what Republicans did to Clinton — for they shamed themselves even if they don’t care. But a House impeachment proceeding could educate the public about the workings of this presidency.
Ambassador Wilson –
I felt bad that I missed the thread you popped in for earlier.
Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions back in October 2004 in Phoenix the night you appeared at the Wyndham Hotel. (It was right after Rove was before the grand jury AGAIN, if that helps you remember.)
You were kind and thoughtful in answering several of my questions over the course of the evening (I was the woman with the cane, not that I expect you to remember, you meet so many folks in the course of all the great speeches you give). I am thankful to both you and Valerie for all you do, but I’d like to repeat a question I had that night:
One question you didn’t really have an answer for was my stated fear about election rigging — I asked you then what you thought true patriots should do if the 2004 election was rigged. I and my husband (and many other folks) still have a deep fear about the manipulation of electronic “central tabulators” — devices used to calculate ALL ballots, including absentee.
Do you have ideas for what recourse we have should this happen (yet AGAIN, as I believe) this coming November?
Thank you so much!
Marion at 175: you’re right, and I should have been clearer. I think Dr. Bob (and the Fundamentalism Project, and others) have been pretty clear that fear undergirds most authoritarian thinking. And fear increases radically when the world is changing faster than you can keep up with, let alone anticipate and plan ahead for.
There are specific issues with the way technologial change happens that make it particularly devastating, at least in the short run. It can create tremendous economic dislocations, which create social havoc, which raise fear and provide fertile ground for those double high leaders. Also, there are some cultures (and people, like you) that have inherent strengths that make them more adaptable and less susceptible to fear than others.
Looking ahead, our society needs to be finding ways to plan for this and deal with it. That’s my area of focus.
From a futurist standpoint, the authoritarian leadership Mr. Dean talks about isn’t just shredding the Constitution; it’s also creating the social and political conditions that will spell the end of America as a world economic, technological, and cultural power in the decades ahead. That sounds hyperbolic, but given a longer form, I can lay the case out chapter and verse.
I have a comment – a msg for Joe Wilson – in moderation now (don’t know why — no nasty words or spam-like topics).
Is there a moderator on this thread who could spring it in time for the good Amb. to still see it?
Thanks in advance!
Mr. Wilson: What went wrong with the GOP? Why did their leadership betray our nation by exposing your wife’s CIA activity? What do you think these people are all about?
At 63: “what do you think can or should be done to begin to move these folks back toward the reality-based world?”
Bob Altemeyer’s research show that few of these hard-core RWA can be turned around. So it is important to understand them, not to mention the leaders they support. That way the reins of government might be kept from them.
all comments have been sprung — hit F5 to totally reload your page
looseheadprop @ 157
I’m going to go get my wife and show her this message. It will probably be the high mark of my career.
A couple of things on the side.
Message 98 wondered how far authoritarians will go in defening their position. I try to only talk about things I have done studies on, and I haven’t yet done an experiment involving assassinations, etc. John Dean will have, I suspect, a calming answer. My basic impression of social dominators (authoritarian leaders) is they will do whatever they think they can get away with. They get off on using power when they have it.(This leads to their classic over-reaching and self-wounding.) So it’s important to make it clear that they can’t get away with it. And that means raising a ruckus over every unlawful, unjust violation in the past.
A long time ago someone observed that it is easy to see what the RWA scale is measuring. Paul Rosenberg gave a good answer to that: high RWAs would likely not know it was about them anyway. But the issue of “transparency” was one of the first things I checked out back in the 70s, because I didn’t particularly want to spend years and years collecting worthless data. Most people think the RWA scale measures opinions about society, or else views of morality. Once you know what a psychological test is trying to measure, it’s easy (hopefully) to see that’s what it’s doing.
Portia at 132 said it looked like she would be permanently estranged from her family, since they weren’t going to change and she wasn’t either. Since I am highly qualified–not at all–as a family therapist, I’d say she may be right. But I know (because Bruce Hunsberger and I have interviewed and surveyed lots of people who have dropped the family religion after being thoroughly indoctrinated in it) that sometimes people can get along in that situation…usually by agreeing not to talk about all the things they disagree about. It is harder I think for the parents to keep that promise, because they don’t usually understand what happened, they feel guilty about “losing the child,” and they feel their own beliefs have been indicted by the child’s apostasy. So they drop the sly comment and sigh the deep sigh during visits. If you love each other enough, it can work anyway. If you don’t, there are lots of other people in the world who could use a little of your love.
Good point. What has this got to do with the topic under discussion? I shall control myself better in the future, I promise.
At 64: ” As bad as an overreaching executive is, as frustrating as a lapdog legislative branch is, my greatest fear is a judiciary that follows in the authoritarian mindset CWC lays out.”
Amen!
Done Mrs. K8
… and I must say, I always feel a bit sorry for our guests here given the avalanche of interesting questions that come fast and furious. Just reading along is quite a pleasure!
Mrs. K8, FYI, there’s one from you at 4:16.
You might need to hit F5.
Mr. Dean,
My 18 year old daughter and I have been sharing your book since midweek. To her it is a prism which illuminates many angry, deceptive shadows.
Today isn’t the first time I’ve heard Senator Hagel described as a Goldwater Republican.
Which is how Senator Hillary Clinton began her political life.
Do you feel she has any of those principals breathing in her yet? Or have they been triangularized to death a la Clinton?
Thank you.
PS. To the person who asked about the origin of islamofascism. Like I noted in the last thread… just think of “feminazi” and — bang — there’s your magic answer.
Mr. Dean, I vividly remember watching you testify after I came home from the 4th grade (you pre-empted The Price Is Right), and my very first term paper in Amercian History in the 7th grade was about your role in Watergate, largely based on Blind Ambition. (I got an A, and remember being quite proud of it.) A few weeks ago I bought CWC in Newark airport and had it finished before the plane landed.
It seems that there is a counsel of despair about the 25% — is there really nothing whatsoever that can be done to get them to re-examine their views? (This is a question for Dr. Bob as well.) To be sure, many of us have had our own experience with immobile right-wingers, so the sense of incorrigibility seems all too familiar. But I have often wondered if the evidence of failure can pile up so high that it can no longer be ignored. Where the Iraq war is concerned, this doesn’t seem to be happening — everything can go wrong and they still remain convinced. Katrina, on the other hand, was apparently an eye-opener for very many Americans, including conservatives, and this suggests a possible inroad to me. An authoritarian conservative probably didn’t have a prior ideological commitment about a hurricane and the government’s ability to respond to it — it just happened, more or less unexpectedly, and the consequence of the government’s response was difficult to overlook or explain away.
What if Bush and Cheney were caught at some unexpected and disturbing crime; if the leaders are discredited, will the authoritarians that follow them loosen the grip on their dogma? It eventually happened to Nixon; in the end, too many of his erstwhile defenders were too shocked and disillusioned.
If there is really nothing at all that will move them, not even continued failure, an unexpected disaster, or a leader’s fall from grace, then we are truly in dire straits.
Warm thanks to siun and *ilson46201! You guys are the best!
Siun @ 199
as Mr. Dean said above, “Amen.”
My worry – that with Bush and his merry band of thieves’ have so little regard for the Constitution and see laws passed by the Congress or attempts to enforce those laws by the Courts – that they see these only as “suggestions”… and not laws that actually apply to them… are we going to have to line up the paddy wagons at the gates of the White House and physically evict these guys?
From a sporadic poster, a simple thanks to Mr. Dean, Dr. Bob, the Wilsons, and Glenn Greenwald for this enlightening discussion. (Kudos always to Jane Hamsher, et al., for the FDL community, and for the lightning-quick moderation – look ma, no trolls!). America needs heroes, especially in dire times, and all of the above qualify without reservation. It makes me hopeful: a recently rare, currently burgeoning, commodity.
Mrs. Robinson at 192, thanks for your thoughtful response. I was raised in New York City, so change was a daily constant. It must be MUCH harder for someone from a more rural area, where “time passes slowly, up here in the mountains,” to quote a song I love, to have to deal all of a sudden with putting the farm on-line to sell to China. Probably I’d be scared too.
Dr. Bob (so called respectfully only because you asked :) at 201 from an appreciative lurker..you stated: “Good point. What has this got to do with the topic under discussion? I shall control myself better in the future, I promise. ” I hope I speak for others too when I say, please, please do not?
I am in awe of this ~ it is history in realtime; giving hope and insight. Thank you.
Bob Altemeyer @ 198 wrote:
“So it’s important to make it clear that they can’t get away with it. And that means raising a ruckus over every unlawful, unjust violation in the past.”
Which is a wonderful description of what we work on here and out in the world – I take this as a battle cry for FDL to keep it up!
At 67: “Lindsay Graham seemed a bit confused about your roll in the Watergate investigation. I was a bit surprised by that.”
Senator Graham showed remarkable ignorance for a member of the Senate about Watergate. While he was only 16 at the time, I know people who were only 10 at the time who understand those events well. What was most surprising was for Graham to asked me questions when he did not have a clue what he was talking about. He does not seem to realize how badly he embarassed himself.
Graham is a slick operator. See my FindLaw column about how he tried to pull a fraud on the U.S. Supreme Court in the Hamdam case. Peopel in NC tell me their will be a large effort to not give him a second term.
Mr. Dean, only if you think it’s appropriate, the next time you speak with Keith Olbermann, please pass on that a lot of us love his home run call: “Deep, and I don’t think it’s playable.”
He was great at ESPN, but I’m so glad he moved into News. I think you two have great chemistry with each other. Usually when you’re a guest, someone at FDL “liveblogs” the gist of your comments.
OT: A warm FDL greeting and hug to your lovely wife Maureen.
John -
Thank you very much for your reply at 3:55 pm (appearing currently as comment # 160) to my second question.
Perhaps a forthcoming book (available for sale on September 5) by James Moore and Wayne Slater) entitled The Architect: Karl Rove and the Master Plan for Absolute Power might provide additional information about fearmongers in the administration.
Mrs. Robinson @
191
For authoritarian conservatives, the Constitution is irrelevant — what matters to them is a comfort zone, that is not challenged by the winds of change. If the Constitution can be used to that end, then it is a good thing; if it stands in the way of their authoritarian comfort zone, it is a worthless scrap of paper.
The discomfort with Modernity is the ultimate weakness of GOP Authorianism. Karl Rove has built the slim Bush majorities with the most awkward Post-Modern alliances possible — the rot of incompetence has led to infighting among his factions, and is our ultimate salvation.
At 71: “I’ll ask a question, what do you think of the state of the Plame investigation? There seems to be a push in DC, from Republicans and the press, to say it’s all understood now and Armitage is to blame.”
I fully anticipate that Scooter Libby will be given a pardon at the end of the Bush presidency. But because Joe and Valerie Wilson have filed a civil action, this matter should get flush out in full before the fat lady sings (as they say.)
Mr. Dean, I’ve read your book twice and driven my family nuts with all the “Aha!”’s. I would just like to add my voice to the multitude expressing appreciation for your many years of service to our country in so many ways. And, of course, for joining us today.
It seems to me you were right on the mark with your comment about being too young to know if you were simply messing with business- as-usual during Watergate. I sometimes feel like a naive turnip-truck dropout when I discover how strongly I believe in truth, fairness and reason in politics and then realize RWA’s absolutely don’t and are playing by another set of rules entirely.
I must leave for now, but I want to thank Jane Hamsher for putting forward the Firedoglake Book Salon and for inviting an amazing coterie of guests who continue to inform and engage week after week.
Thanks to everyone here today for our ongoing commitment to truth and democracy. We can and must take back our country.
At 72: “Regarding the present administration and its policies: What do you think history will show down the road? Will this indeed be the worst administration in US history? Can this cancer on the US political/democratic system ever recover? What will be the steps?
What do you see for the future in your crystal ball?”
I avoid checking crystal balls and tea leaves, but at last count almost sixty history professors had declared that Bush would go down in history as our nation’s worst president. I would only add, he has worked hard for that ranking.
J. Dean @ 214
you give me hope, sir, for our democracy.
-ck- @ 213
It’s “irrelevant” at best. At worst, it’s the biggest obstacle to their desires that humankind has probably ever devised.
Best case: they ignore it. Worst case: they’ll burn it the first chance they get.
I am still flabbergasted none of us thought to ask the Ambassador about the Armitage revelations … darn it !
Resonding to No. 75, I have already done a book tour to some 15 cities.
J. Dean @
25
J. Dean @ 214
?
J. Dean @ 216
/laughing/
I’m sure Mr. Bush would agree with you. After all, he’s said it himself–”It’s hard work.”
*ilson46201 @ 220
I would never ask about that, *ilson, because Fitz is not done yet.
What a fantastic forum. I rounded at work all day until now and will have to get caught up.
I had to jump ahead to remark on the laugh I got from Dr. Bob’s remark @ 55 about authoritarian followers:
“They are not inclined to critical thinking unless their leaders have told them ahead of time whom to be critical of.”
LOL!
Mr. Dean -
You funny, Mr. Dean! (and Thank You for writing this book)
Mr. Altemeyer,
Perhaps you would care to respond to my comment 185 above. It seems Mr. Dean is scrupulously working his way through the thread and will take a while to get to #185.
What distinguishes the science you deploy from that which makes Glenn Greenwald skeptical in his initial review of Mr. Dean’s book? How would you address his concerns regarding your work?
To me, even if you’re spinning pure theory, Mr. Dean’s personal experience couples life experiment to theory in a pretty conclusive manner. At least to me, that what Mr. Dean seemed to express in his book.
–
*ilson, Amb. Wilson, I believe has left, but the question was posed above by Mike at 4:11. I linked to emptywheel’s response.
Wasss up America! Glenn you rock! Dean keep the information coming!
A slightly different angle:
Mr. Dean,
Americans do have real enemies. We do have real threats. How does that correlate with Bush’s policy?
When the conservative contends that we are under a seemingly ‘imminent threat’, what exactly is he addressing? Not really good at expressing myself, but I’ll try. Is the concern with the immediate enemy characterized as behing al’Quaida, Hizbollah, and Hamas? Or is there an overall picture they are looking at? Are they more scared of what they define as radical regimes controlling most of the world’s resources that has cursed the Middle East? Should there be genuine concern on that view?
Also, I’d like to bring up Eisenhower’s famous speech about the military industrial complex, which many understand was originally coined the congressional military industrial complex before it got scrapped in the final draft because it was too abrasive a term.
Our foreign policy was obviously driven by 9/11, but how much of a hand did this collusion play in the preemptive strike on Iraq? Is Bush being led by his own personal convictions (or perversions of the U.S. constitution), or was this collusion that drove Bush into Iraq?
From your experience, which party is more deeply woven into this military industrial complex? I fear you will say that both political parties are equally ‘embedded’ with our nations Iron Triangle.
I haven’t read your book yet, but I hope to read it soon.
J. Dean @
217
LMAO.
windje @ 222: Libby and Liddy are easy to confuse, which appears to have quite understandably occurred at 25. So now you know Mr. Dean’s opinion on both perps.
Sorry, this is 74 (the last post from me was re 74): “Mr. Dean– can you please try to explain why the administration came up with the silly term Islamo- fascism just about the same time you proved to the world that we are enduring proto- fascism?”
I suspect that they market tested it and found it worked. But a more sinister thought that has occurred to me is that by using the “F” word to describe the enemy they may be trying to immunize themselves. (But that is a thought only, and I have no evidence — at this time — that that is the case.)
angie @ 224
The Wilson-Plames need to be able to engage in a full range of human behaviour and conversation without us, the unwashed masses, asking they show their cards on everything.
This thread is about John Dean’s book, not about Armitage.
I am sure they have things to say to their lawyers and perhaps to their closest friends, but this is a little public and would be off topic. I think we did well to not ask them.
Not to offend G. Soros in anyway, but I am floored that John Dean is going question by question and being extemely gracious to us all.
Thank you Mr. Dean for your time and insights.
Respectfully,
Rick
J. Dean @ 232
Brilliant!
J i O @ 229
I will, but my wife just called me to supper and when it comes to Jean, I am a total authoritarian follower.
*atou @ 231
I can see that as I didn’t notice the distinction myself until after I reread the post. Now the Colson comment makes sense also!
windje
At 77:
In the CWC index, the only occurence of “neocons” is pages 20-21.
Predictably, the sentence described didn’t exist on either page.
Not sure you looked closely. Neocons are described on pp 20-21 or my book, an “Neoconservatives” the next entry in the index show they are discussed throughout the book.
Bob Altemeyer @ 236
Thanks so much for joining us today, Professor Alteyemer. Much appreciated.
windje @ 222
It was a joke, I say a joke, son. (In my best Foghorn Leghorn)
Yes. Thanks for being here — and for all your good work.
Thanks Professor Bob!
J. Dean @ 238
Mr. Dean, I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear. My comment 77 was in response to a troll. Jane deleted his comment. My point was that your book didn’t say what he said it did.
We’re not used to your work ethic here at the FDL book salon.
At 79: “In the context of authoritarian Republicans vs. everyone else, what do you think? Will the domestic authoritarians’ inflexibility do them in, as it did the Spartans and the Nazis? Or are they sufficiently flexible to dodge this fate?”
The answer will be found in the ‘06 and ‘08 elections returns.
John -
When time permits, please compare your response in comment 214 at 4:32 pm with your response in comment 25 at 2:17 pm.
(Mommybrain – I didn’t see your comment at 4:48 pm until after I submitted my comment.)
On the subject of books, our leader claims to have read 60 books in the last 8 months. Bill Mahr breaks it down to reading 2 1/2 hours a day. When you add in 2 hours of exercising daily and an 8:00 bedtime, my question is this:
How does he find time to continue to run a campaign?
ccmask @ 245
Not to mention drinking.
ccmask @ 246
the part our leader didn’t mention is that they are comic books… they only take him 2 hours/day to read…
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 245
windje @ 237
ccmask @ 250
I take exception to the term “our” leader. I thought our leader was Kos. :-)
Dr. Dean.
I suspect that you have heard about the hullabaloo surrounding a Broadcast on ABC sep 11th and 12th called “The Path to 911″. It is produced by a RW Producer and has been getting rave reviews on all of the RW Websites.
Well listen to this.
ABC is also making available scholastic materials and lesson plans available to reinforce the RW view of 911 in the classroom. Here is a link to the Materials that are being made available for teachers to use in support of, and in concert with, this RWA View of the 911 tragedy for the young minds of our country.
http://content.scholastic.com/…..jsp?id=415
So, what do you think of this?
RevDeb @ 249
I believe it is “dear leader”.
Mr. Phenomenon @ 228
I don’t intend to step on Mr. Dean’s answer (I welcome it, in fact), but this is a subject of my research. Perhaps from the advent of the national security state (as opposed to the traditional republic which preceded it), there’s been a competition between the parties for the public’s approval and perceptions. It began in earnest in the Congressional elections in 1946, with the Republicans charging that Truman was “soft on communism.” Truman was actually pushed toward the same things the authoritarians would have implemented on their own, for purely political reasons (loyalty oaths, etc.).
It’s almost ancient history now, but one of the fiercest hawks in Congress was a Democrat–Scoop Jackson, and a number of the current crop of neoconservatives working behind the scenes now worked in Jackson’s office in some capacity.
It’s an equal opportunity business, satisfying that particular beast. The Republicans–up until very recently–have been winning the PR war on that front, but most members of both parties are loathe to tread too deeply into that dragon’s lair with cost-cutting sword in hand.
Cheers.
okay, our “bleeder”.
Q for Mr Dean:
I understand the usage of fear / smear tactics in furtherance of a goal, specifically by this (authoritarian) administration, but what exactly is their goal? That is, if one can reasonably, historically understand the traditional goals of Dems and GOPs, then what are the goals of neoconservatives beyond their self-perpetuation? Is it global domination at the hand of military might?
I am curious for your take on what Bush & Co. have in mind, knowing that they’ll be out in 2008 if nothing else.
Thank you very much for your consideration.
Irishamerican @ 250
Bush’s America, where Truth is a conspiracy theory.
shooogarp @ 252
1) I think that is Deer-In-The-Headlights Leader.
2) He hasn’t changed an iota of his policies for a nanosecond since he fantasized for a bit and declared them a new reality. He’s got plenty of time for reading, bikeriding, secret drinking and lovin’ Tony Snow on the downlow.
John Casper @ 235
Why, thank you. It was actually the first thing that occurred to me.
This question is for the great Glenn Greenwald:
Have you examined the Patriot Act in the context of what powers it gives the administration in the areas of domestic surveillance? I’m a regular reader of Unclaimed Territory and perhaps I’ve missed it, but the Patriot Act(s) seem to have completely altered police powers. (my emphasis)
If you can, would you please address this and perhaps devote an entire post (or re-direct me to one you have already written) on how these draconian measures have changed the rules on domestic eavesdropping?
While those that need crayons do take more time, the President probably got through the comic book version of Camus’s the Stranger in 10 minutes.
Mr. Dean, a softball if I may;
Do you believe Rumsfeld should resign and as importantly, will he?
Thanks in advance.
J. Dean @ 244
e
AMEN to that! That is why we must continue the good fight in the streets and on the web. Thanks John Dean for you well thought out words.
Thank you Mr. Dean, for your ongoing service to our country and for Conservatives Without Conscience.
With regard to your description of J. Edgar Hoover; you say that Hoover “rigged the Warren Commission investigation in a manner that still colors the nation’s understanding of President Kennedy’s assassination.” Would you explain what the persistent misperception continues to be?
Thank you. It has been a pleasure to attend this event.
I am going out on a limb here, sir.
Do you think that this President will ever be and should be impeached?
Mr. Dean, I bought your book… and I really regret that you didn’t do the extended book hype tour! I would have moved Heaven and Earth to get your autograph on my copy! (What, you couldn’t make a few appearances in NEW YORK CITY?)
Down to serious stuff: your book delves into understanding some deep chemical reactions of the human brain, and how they could be corralled into a series of behavioral modifications which have launched a radical political juggernaut.
My question is: given the decades-old history of psychological operations, or psy-ops, that the darker agents of our intelligence community developed and refined for so many years… would you say there is a suspicious bond between the classic psy-ops, that the intelligence community has practiced, and the specific actors who have been involved in his “authoritarian” neoconservative movement?
In other words, did these guys deliberately set out to brainwash our society, using methods invented to be used against American “enemies”?
At 80: “I’m curious about what you thought of Olbermann’s remarks [re Rumsfeld.]”
Keith Olberman is the most intelligent anchor in America, and he actually uses his God given talents to inform Americans. (Jon Stewart also plays in this league, even though he does comedy.) Slowly, steadily, people are discovering Olberman’s not only smart and savvy, but he can have fun as well. He knows what to take serious, however, and he was the first news person to recognize the seriousness of Rumsfeld’s insidious comments.
Rumsfeld came to the Nixon White House in 1970 some five months after I arrived. At the time, I asked White House chief of staff Bob Haldeman what Rummy was going to be doing. “Nothing,” Haldeman told me, explaining that they were placing him on the White House staff (giving him a sinecure) to bolster his chances to win a Senate race in IL.
In time, Haldeman — not to mention — Nixon came to distrust Rumsfeld. Many thought Nixon appointed him Ambassador to NATO as a promotion. In fact, they wanted to get him out of the White House. Haldeman called Rumsfeld “slimmy” in his contemporaneous diaries, and Nixon is heard on his tapes discussing Rumsfeld in less than flattering terms.
Most ironic, given Rumsfeld’s current position on Iraq, Rumsfeld argued that Nixon should get the hell out of Vietnam. Rummy was a cut and run guy back then.
Keith Olberman should be given a Pulitzer for his commentary on Rumsfeld’s remarkable behavior. It is because Keith is such an intelligent and stand-up person that I enjoy doing his show.
Dru @ 263
And in addition Mr. Dean. Is or has this same “Rigging taken place in regard to the 911 commission? Are these Materials,in concert with the upcoming ABC Movie:
http://content.scholastic.com/…..jsp?id=415
an attempt to “shape” the nations understanding of 911 in the same way?
Don’t these guys ever do anything original?
angie @
264
Angie – you may find the answer to your question in the second paragraph of comment 189 at 4:16 pm.
At 83:
I am just starting to study voting machines, and will in time have more to report.
J. Dean @ 269
This is great news!
When one of the FDL posters, maybe one here today, writes a scholarly volume on how the blogs saved journalism and in the process saved our Nation, this thread will surely get its own chapter.
Consider this my selfish bid for immortality in a footnote to a footnote.
This has been extraordinary. My thanks to all involved, Mr. Dean, Jane, Glenn, Amb. Wilson, etal.
Mr. Dean, thank you so much for being here. I had the same question as Angie at 5:09 (whether or not Bush should, or will be impeached) Do you think the relatively recent impeachment of Clinton raised or lowered the bar on impeachment for Bush?
At 11: A friend pointed out my Fruedian mis-read of Liddy for Libby — but as I have posted along, I have resonded to both.
At 84: “If the democrats retake one or more houses of Congress, how does the Double High leader respond when challenged by an equal power, like a co-equal branch of government?”
Short and easy answer: With everything they can, legal or illegal, whatever they can do! I would wager on it, and I am not a wager type.
How does the Third World War rhetoric fit into the authoritarian mentality? Is it just another cause to line up the base, or is all out world war a coveted achievement of an authoritarian regime?
Quick quote:
Newt Gingrich: “the Third World War has already begun”
J.Dean: I just loaded the audio book in my shopping cart. Thanks for your service to mankind.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 268
thank you.
J. Dean @ 234
Sometimes instinct draws on evidence we don’t know we have. I suspect your thought is 100% correct. These guys love a preemptive strike.
Thank you for being here, Mr. Dean, and for promising to read through. Otherwise I would hesitate to throw in my 2cents this late in the day.
As an aside: I’m going to take your thought and carry it into foil hat territory.
I’ve often suspected that the reason they were so determined to impeach Clinton (they worked awfully hard to get there, didn’t they.) was to a) get payback for Nixon and more importantly b) to make sure that when they did get the power they were seeking that the populace would be “impeachment weary”?
Back to the main topic: Something clicked as I read through these comments. Someone very wise upthread said that a possibility for influencing the core 25% is to provide real leadership that will appeal to their comfort zone. Unambiguous leadership really appeals to all of us when it’s sane…so that’s something to go on and to relate to. The DLC Dems have been losing because they ARE ambiguous–and that frustrates the heck out of the rest of us.
I think we might possibly apply Dr. Bob’s great studies to the propaganda machine that the media has become, as well. Those that look to the leaders to provide their opinions, like Hiatt, et al, are maybe just naturally part of that core group of followers? Just a thought.
It’s such a pleasure to read through this thread. Thanks so much for all you do. (And all the FDL hosts and folks and guests here today…so glad I didn’t miss it.)
J. Dean @ 232
John Dean, this thought is already out there, because it is the truth.
J. Dean @ 269
That is exciting news. I look forward to hearing your findings.
Note: I let my response to Keith Olbermann’s commentary fly before I read it, and see that my quick fingers dropped his second “n” — sorry about that.
At 88: “Can you address the one or two most significant differents that makes this administration so much worse than the Nixon Administration in terms of its authoritarian abuses – both in terms of the leaders and followers.”
I think two significant differences will make the point: No one died as a result of Nixon’s “Watergate” abuses of power, while with Bush/Cheney that is not the case. Oh, but Vietnam and Cambodia, you might say regarding Nixon. But they were not part of the so-called Watergate abuses. Another glaring difference is I cannot believe Nixon — at his darkest — would have tolerated a policy of torture of any American detainee under any circumstances. I watch Nixon deal with war crimes by Americans and he had no tolerance for them. (I make these statements not as a Nixon defender, rather as an hopefully honest assement. Indeed, I doubt anyone would ever successfully call me a Nixon apologist.)
Just curious if you have seen Robert Baer’s latest movie, “the cult of the suicide bomber”. Baer is a 25 year veteran of the CIA in the Middle East. Absolutely chilling. I was wondering if you had a take on it . . . We certainly think of this government as authoritarian at times, but the militants in Iran, Hizbollah, and Palestine take it to a whole new level. I wouldn’t call them fascist, but I would consider them authoritarian, as most fundamentalist religions are . . .
BTW, Baer was with Ray McGovern ( another CIA veteran ) in opposing the War in Iraq.
I am also so impressed with this thread (in fact, this blog) and the amazing level of the conversation – this is the new age chautauqua.
I really appreciate Mr. Dean’s sticking with us and answering our questions for so long tonight.
Again, Mr. Dean thank you for “reading through” and responding to our questions. Lots to think about today. Thx FDL
At 92: “Suppose the Dems take the House. Perhaps you could outline a few steps that you think might be helpful in pushing back this tide?”
Simply oversight will change everything. And there are Democrats like Henry Waxman that know the soft spots to go after. It is going to be fascinating if Dems get control of either chamber. But the problems will not be resolved, for Bush and Cheney have made countless and endless changes to the Executive Branch processes that must be readjusted to bring the presidency back within bounds.
Mr. Dean,
It has been a privilege reading through this thread. I was in law school during Watergate, but spent a summer and more watching the hearings and your testimony — right on through Erhlichman and Haldeman and then . . . Alex Butterfield!
Next year, with any luck, the country will again be mesmerized by an investigation, and I hope you’ll be there, again, to report on it for us. Thanks so much for your service to this country.
To JiO at 229,
When John does get to your message at 185 he’ll give you a better answer than I can give To your question about Glenn’s initial comments regarding the relevance of science to political processes. He had to make that call. My response is that I agree with Glenn, and not just about political matters. I think it pays immensely to have a skeptical attitude toward scientific findings, especially in the “soft” sciences (social sciences). Not because we use a different scientific method than physicists do. When I do an experiment I’m trying to put the same kind of hammer-lock on Mother Nature that a chemist tries. But because people are so much more complicated than molecules, it is so easy to miss what is really going on. So yes, skepticism is warranted. There have been a lot of false steps and bad moves and unwarranted overgeneralizations in our game. But sometimes, here and there, research is sound and leads to insight.
(I’m practicing being pithy. Let me know if I missed your point.)
Buckeye Hamburger at 204 asked the very good question, Is there really nothing that we can do to change authoritarian followers? Well as I said, some things seem to work. I mentioned how high RWAs want to be like everyone else in many regards. Another thing that “works,”–and this truly astounds me–is that authoritarian followers do get affected by their experiences when you’d swear there was not chance. So I have found, both in surveys and in an experiment I ran one time using myself as the “target,” that once high RWAs meet a homosexual or learn that someone they knew was a homosexual, their attitude toward homosexuals becomes more favorable. (I’m not gay, but I told a class of my students one year that I was for the purpose of this experiment.) So despite all their preconceptions, the highs saw reality and changed. Another thing that works is higher education. Students at my large public university drop in RWA scale scores about 10% on the average over the course of a 4-year undergraduate education. But the students who drop the most are the ones who came in being very high. (I don’t think it’s the profs who cause this to happen, but simply the highs meeting a much wider variety of people than ever before.)
But as John Dean mentioned,normal approaches to changing someone’s mind (reason, discourse, exposure to scientific evidence) do not work with authoritarian followers, but instead provoke a dogmatic response. (The comment from the person from Cincinnati who says the conservatives he knows will change slowly, but not if they are treated with disrespect and humiliated) applies here, I think.) The dogmatism goes back to the way the followers have formed their beliefs, which has basically been to copy the beliefs of the authorities in their lives. They really don’t know why those are the right ideas; they’re taking other people’s word for it. Most people have done more figuring-things-out-for-themselves, so when they get challenged they can go back to the reasons they believe what they do. And if better reasons leading elsewhere come along, why not follow them? But the high RWA is poorly equipped to handle such a challenge. He can respond with the counter-arguments he has been inoculated with, but if they get swatted aside he is lost. And not only is that particular point lost, but the whole shooting match is now in jeopardy because of the simplistic way (”It’s all right or it’s all wrong”) he thinks. So dogmatism is his best defense, and he’s perfectly willing–as I suspect many of you have found–to end an argument he has lost by saying, “OK, you believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I want.”
(So much for pithiness.)
J. Dean @ 280
Mr. Dean, there are several FDLers, (in addition to Jane and Christy) Mary, (a terrific attorney) in particular, who have really led us on the torture issue. I’m sorry she’s not here today, but I know she will really appreciate all your answers, but especially this one. As I am sure you are aware, the U.S. hero of My Lai, Hugh Thompson,_Jr. just passed away.
OT, you are humanizing Nixon, without excusing him, in a way that Monica Crowley never could.
At 93: I think we must all worry about the policies of this administration that are creating more terrorists than they are removing. If Americans hold them responsible for these misguided policies, it will be a long time before they get back into the White House. If they succeed in keeping those unwilling to think frightened, they may have an indefinite lease on the Oval Office.
American voters have it within their power to resolve this problem and get the focus correct.
J. Dean @ 281
It’s certainly not an apologia to acknowledge that Richard Nixon, who with his resignation now has the reputation of being history’s most corrupt president, had clear moral boundaries, and that there were things he would absolutely not do. Torture and war crimes have been properly held in contempt by Americans of all parties for generations. This is indeed where Bush is worse by far than Nixon. By resorting to torture, he may very well have sealed his legacy as our most evil president ever.
At 280: “No one died as a result of Nixon’s “Watergate” abuses of power…”
Are you referring to the Plame scandal here, or to the general prisoner of war issues (torture etc)?
Thanks again very much.
Thank you for your reply, Mr. Altemeyer. I look forward to hearing what Mr. Dean has to say.
Allow me to thank all who have made this forum possible. FDL does fine work.
–
At 95: “My question, you said at the Senate Judiciary hearings that unlike with President Nixon, President Bush’s desire for ever-increasing power is not meeting any resistance from the Congress. Do you see any change, any Congressional pushback, since the hearings?”
Almost too slight to measure. Congressman Chris Shays, who is fighting for his political life, is going to hold hearings re Iraq that could push slightly. Otherwise, Congress has lost its institutional pride.
I want to add my sincere thanks to Dr. Bob for his keen insights and sharing his research, and to other researchers who enriched this thread today. Much thanks also to Glenn Greenwald for his continuing brilliance and courage in walking point in the battle against the authoritarians, every day, without fear. And who was that Wilson guy?
Wow, Jane.
There were heroes at My Lai– I thank goodness every day for them.
RIP.
Kathryn @ 282:
I’m hoping that the next time Mr. Dean hears someone moaning all about Those Awful Bloggers, he’ll remember his Sunday afternoons at FDL, and what an intelligent bunch we (mostly) are.
And, for the record, Mr. Dean: this same FDL tribe is *exactly* the same crowd that was lambasted in the media from coast to coast for putting Deborah Howell at the Washington Post on notice that she couldn’t rewrite the news. They made us sound like a bunch of shrieking, drooling wackos.
But now you’ve met us, and know the horrible truth: we’re actually fairly calm and sensible, which makes us an authoritarian’s real worst nightmare.
J. Dean @ 293
“Otherwise, Congress has lost its institutional pride.”
Many of the great commenters and posters at FDL have made this exact point, but none that I remember made it quite so cleanly and with so much punch.
Mr. Dean- I’m a regular here, but I also “moderate”, so I haven’t had the time to post before. But I have been reading everything.
The Book Salon typically produces an incredible discussion, and today’s has been memorable. I am especially glad that you asked Dr. Bob to join in. I appreciate your willingness to return to the forum later, and answer questions that you are not able to address in real time- and there have been great questions.
Discussion moves very quickly at FDL. Usually discussion moves to the newest thread, and discussion on older threads may be left behind. HOWEVER, that has not been the case with discussions at Book Salon- people continue to read and to comment many days after the original post.
I doubt that you will be able to get through all of the questions today. I don’t know how Jane would feel about this, but here’s my suggestion, since you’ve said that you will continue to address questions later: Perhaps you could post them all as a single comment on this thread, and give Jane the heads-up, so that she could give us the heads-up, perhaps in a new post from her. I offer this, just because your comments have been fascinating so far, and I wouldn’t want to miss your answers for those questions you can’t address today.
BTW, I am one of the Watergate generation, and the Watergate hearings were the best reality TV I’ve ever been privileged to watch. I was glued to the tube. I trust you understand that by describing the hearings in this way I am being a bit frivilous but at the same time deeply serious.
Thank you Mr. Dean for spending your time with us today, here at FDL.
At 98: “Have you personally received an outpouring of venom from the very authoritarian followers you so courageously seek to expose? Do you believe as I do that most such bullies seek to intimidate, but rarely follow through on their threats?”
I keep an eye out for Karl Rove Sleeper Cells, and have encountered none so far. I get a few testy callers when I do right wing radio shows, but since these folks know that I am not frightened or bothered by them, they seem to give me my space. As those who have read the book know, I am not shy about using the courts to protect myself when the authoritarians cross the wrong boundaries.
VG, Mr. Dean’s comments in his introduction:
“……So let us begin. If I am unable to answer all the questions – while I type quickly I do so with remarkable inaccuracy so I will slow down to give my words some recognizable semblance to our language – I will review the transcript of both last week and this week later, and try to respond in a subsequent posting to questions still outstanding.”
Valley Girl — I like your suggestion of offering some future post as a way for Mr. Dean to sweep any remaining responses into one piece, crafted anyway he prefers. The man is being so gracious about answering every question, it’s almost unfair. The outpouring of respect towards him, Dr. Bob, Glenn Greenwald and Ambassador Wilson has been inspiring.
When’s the last time we were at a town meeting like this?
Mr. Dean, Dr. Bob, a last question (from me, anyway).
Is it profitable, in understanding the dynamics of the current White House, to think of Bush and Cheney together–as a composite personality that would not or could not have acted as they have as individuals? (Think of this as a political metaphor for the “In Cold Blood” syndrome).
Thanks.
Mr. Dean,
This is such a treat.
Thanks so much for participating in this. As a college kid I sewed school clothes and watched the Watergate hearings with my parents. I remember feeling afraid for my country.
I feel the same way now but without the sense of “there’s somebody sane drivin’ this bus.”
John Casper @ 300
No wonder the power structure tried so hard over the years to convince attorneys they were too busy to learn to type, eh? Mr. Dean is being the most thorough, definitive and courteous guest I’ve read at fdl book salon yet.
A standing ovation for Mr. John Dean
But now you’ve met us, and know the horrible truth: we’re actually fairly calm and sensible, which makes us an authoritarian’s real worst nightmare.
People like John Dean and Glenn Greenwald are an authoritarian’s real worst nightmare.
Note how John Dean handled a question (respectfully and with class) in Post #153, as contrasted with, say, others.
windje @ 305
This thread has been incredible, just wow!
Cozumel @ 306
Yes, standing O!
Completely agree ET at 5:56.
At 105: “do you have an impression that someone in the administration might have the honesty or fortitude to come out as you did?”
Richard Clarke did. I am sure if the Congress starts probs, others will too. But, if you have read my book(s), this administration — particularly the White House — has been set up as if the best and brightest of the Costa Nostra.
NOTE: IT HAS TAKEN ABOUT FOUR HOURS TO RESPOND TO ROUGHLY 100 QUESTIONS. I AM GOING TO BREAK NOW, AND THANK YOU ALL FOR THE GREAT QUESTIONS. I WILL RETURN AS TIME PERMITS AND TRY TO WORK MY WAY THOUGH AS MANY MORE AS POSSIBLE.
MANY MANY THANKS!!!
John Casper @ 307
Bravo!! Bravo!! Bravo!!
Mrs. Robinson @ 296
And once we get hold of something we don’t let go easily. Case in point, it’s been *four hours*!!
I could have blogged all night…
Thank you Mr. Dean, Dr. Bob.
To Miss Jane: Thankee all kindly, great little saloon you got goin’ here.
Valley Girl!!! great job keeping this a troll-free zone.
Wow! thank you all so much!
I’d like to second or third or … the suggestion that we let Mr. Dean get a break and then provide further answers when he likes. I’m sure we can post either a pointer to this thread or a new one to include his answers. And I’d like to echo the thanks and wonder here for Mr. Dean’s participation and thoughful, amazing answers. This is a very special discussion and one that I know many of us will come back to often.
I’m particularly struck throughout by Mr. Dean’s comments that change depends on our actions in the ‘06 and ‘08 elections. That’s our cue, FDL, to keep at the work we do – and to do even more.
MANY MANY THANKS TO YOU!!
It was incredibly gracious for you to give us the time that you did.
Please take care and watch your back. We will do the best we can in our own way to do so as well.
John Casper- I read this, yes. But I took it to mean that he was going to respond bit by bit on this thread. Obviously I got that part wrong, since he does say “a subsequent posting”. My main point however, was that that this should be highlighted on FDL in some way. I don’t want to miss that! Wouldn’t it be great if Mr. Dean contributed an article to FDL, referencing his new comments made on this thread, while also reflecting on his experience here at the Book Salon? Maybe we can turn him into an “FDL regular”. !!;)
J. Dean @ 309
THANK YOU!!! So very very much Mr. Dean.
I join everyone else here in thanking you for your time and patriotism.
J. Dean @ 309
Good night, and good luck!
Couldn’t resist ; ) Thank you!
Thank you Mr. Dean!
and as the new “press secretary,” I’ll make certain that no one misses Mr. Dean’s followup.
What a wonderful way to spend the holiday … wow!
Well done, Jane. Really well done.
I am blown away by this thread. Thank you so much, FDL, Glenn and especially John Dean. What a remarkable experience.
This has been an amazing experience for me. I am going to share all I can with others I work with locally to get folks elected who will make a difference. I intend to buy the audio version to share with these same folks at our local DFA meetings. Thanks to all the FDLers who contributed so much in making this such a special night. Bringing this type of event to others can make a difference.
Greetings John Dean-
I have yet to read your book, but have read excerpts and countless articles written by you on the subject. The issue of authoritarianism as it has impacted the United States in incredibly fascinating and should be understood by every citizen, lest it happen again.
My question to you: Given what is at stake in the 2006 elections and the propensity for this administration to subvert the law, what protections do we have if this administration attempts to undermine the will of the people this November?
Thank you, Mr. Dean; for your time and your gracious consideration! What a privilege to participate in such an event. Thank you FDL!
Wow. That was really impressive. I feel less depressed now.
Cecily, we want Mr. Dean wants to sell more copies of CWC. Perhaps if you mention you have a radio program in Nashville, he would be a telephone guest? I can’t speak for him or his literary agent, who probaby schedules those things, just thought I’d mention it.
Mr. Dean…Thank you for your time today. I must say that your candor and continued adherence to true conservative principles has in many ways redeemed the actions of the past, in my opinion.
I wish you continued success with your book.
Wow! FDL has always been an amazing place, but John Dean’s contributions today, and this thread have blown me away. Okay, I am starting to sound like a Valley Girl, but, like omigod, I remember Mr. Dean from Watergate reality TV, and am thrilled to meet him in “person” today. He has been an awesome contributor!!
I heart John Dean.
Reflecting for a moment about Watergate, I remembered again that while it was shocking and dismaying in many obvious ways, all in all it was inspiring for me. I was encouraged to believe that we have a system that works when it is tested.
I was just a kid, seven years old when the break-in occurred, and nine when I watched Nixon’s resignation speech on TV. It was the greatest civics lesson I ever could have hoped for, because sophisticated issues of the Constitution, such separation of powers and the extent of executive power, were right at the center of it. The process of impeachment hadn’t been dusted off since the time of Andrew Johnson. And I learned that the system is what matters most — there’s no guarantee that people will always do the right thing, but the system will watch out for abuses and balance things out. It would ensure that corruption even in the most powerful office of all will not prevail if everyone does what the system requires them to do. I learned that it’s the system that makes democracy what it is, and keeps it alive.
Even at that young age, I sensed that John Dean realized the same thing about the system — it had to be preserved, and had to be put in use to preserve itself. He was right in the thick of the Watergate cover-up, and realized it couldn’t go on. If the President wouldn’t do what had to be done to make it stop, then he himself would have to blow the whistle, knowing he would get prison time for admitting his own culpability, and let the system run its course.
Today, we face a much more serious threat, because the system itself is under attack. The President is now claiming that he can go beyond the law and even the Constitution, with no checks and balances, no oversight, and do whatever he wants. As we have seen, that goes so far as to include torture. The case for impeaching and removing Bush, or at least opening inverstigations, is frankly a no-brainer, and yet the very idea is now a heresy in a Congress that has “lost its institutional pride”. As of now, the system is failing, and if it fails, our Republic no longer exists as we know it.
Mr. Dean is right, the 2006 and 2008 elections are now-or-never, do-or-die for American democracy.
I can’t stand it any longer. I arrived late and I’m captivated by this discussion. But please I AM NOT “Sonoma.” Lets not get us confused. THe names are similar – that’s as far as it goes . . .
J. Dean @
269
I hope you get around to it before November! I truly believe that this is the most important election in American history as it will, like you said, shape the course of 21-century history.
Tom @ 274
I have a theory about that. The War in Iraq has been a failure. By making it part of a larger war, Iraq becomes just a battle rather than the war that it is. It’s all bull of course. Expand the failure, double down.
Sonoma Rus @ 330
Not to worry. FDLers pay attention to monikers, and differences in style.
J. Dean @ 311
THANK YOU for taking your time to be here. It has been a remarkable experience watching this conversation unfold.
Dr. Bob, if you’re still here –
Thanks soooo much for the long reply. For the past three weeks, I’ve been writing a long series, using CWC as a springboard, suggesting specific ways RWAs can indeed be induced to change. (Buckeye, you might be interested — it’s at Orcinus, which is on the FDL blogroll.) Much of what I talk about was drawn from my own experience working with people leaving fundamentalist religions — a walk I’ve taken myself, and supported scores of other people through.
It’s frankly gratifying to know that your observations about how people change dovetail with mine in almost perfect detail. Furthermore, I believe that these observations — that these people really can change, and that the conditions for change can be studied, classified, and reliably reproduced — have both personal and public policy implications that may offer some hope for improving the overall landscape.
I’m very glad Mr. Dean saw fit to use his bully pulpit to put your ideas into larger circulation. (One of the most common comments I’ve gotten on the series is from social scientists who say, “I can’t believe people don’t already know all this.” No, nobody outside the field really did, until this summer.) And I’m grateful to you for being here today. Thanks again.
Mr. Dean, thank you for spending so much time with us today. I’m even more inspired to get out and do the work necessary for us to take back congress. That’s our first objective.
Mr. Dean,
You’re a great American and I commend you for your honesty, integrity and patriotism in the face of adversity, not once, but twice now in your storied career. This book you’ve written…that my wife is reading while I am reading Kevin Phillips great book…is a true eye opener to her. I wonder if you’d tell me your thoughts on a scenario that I pray doesn’t happen, but sadly do feel is a grave possibility. I fear that as we approach the 2008 presidential election that this sinister neoconservative cabal will stop at nothing to retain power of the presidency; I fear another terrorist attack or threat of imminent attack will give the pretext for martial law and/or the cancellation of the election on the grounds of national security and that GWB could go so far as to dissolve Congress if need be on the grounds of his Commander in Chief authority. I pray…oh how I pray that it doesn’t happen, but I have this gut wrenching feeling. Sadly I am coming closer everydaytobelievingthat the attack on the WTC may have somehow have been our 21st century Reichstag fire. Do you think that these forces at work within our nation could be that cold and calculating as to undo the constitution further than they already have in order to retain their authoritarian grip on power?
I left in the middle of the thread buy the the book knowing I would catch up later. This has been inspiring and informative.
Gives me great hope. And re-enforces the fact that we have much work to do.
Ray at 338,
Yes.
forced birth…fodder for republican wars.
.
Just wonderful. Thank you so much, Mr. Dean, for your courtesy and dedication.
And thanks to everyone at FDL for a memorable afternoon!
Cozumel @
333
Bullseye Coz, as per usual. I’m so glad you commented that, because I had missed it.
J. Dean @
289
Thank you for responding to that point/question. I didn’t think it had a shot at being addressed. Happy to see you prove me wrong. Very eloquently stated as well. Again, thank you.
Best Book Salon imaginable! Two weeks in a row.
Funny thing is my book has yet to arrive by (shetland) pony express and I am looking forward to reading it more than evah!
John Casper @ 343
Second that Bullseye.
Thanks to both Mr. Dean and Prof. Altemeyer for your incredible graciousness.
Kudos to Jane and Glenn for your work in arranging this conversation.
J. Dean @ 218
Thank you so much for personally responding with your prediction Mr. Dean. From our vantage point here in Canada we can see very clearly that you and the sixty plus history professors will indeed be correct in your prediction.
Our problem here is our Prime Minister, Stephen Harper. For some strange reason he emulates Bush in many of his policies! Mind boggling eh?? ;)
Special thanks to Crooks & Liars ( http://crooksandliars.com/ ) for cluing me into this incredible discussion. And now to continue my reading…
Ian – Toronto
Ray @ 337
J. Dean @
309
You are a true hero, Mr. Dean. What you have done for us so far is MUCH MORE than we expected. Again, thank you so much.
Mr Dean,
How does it feel to have lived to witness the election of a president who would make Richard Nixon look like Gandi?
Roberto
What a great thread. One of the best in my experience of FDL to date. This is what the blogosphere has to offer! Serious, moderated but more or less unobstructed intellectual interaction between luminaries of the day and their audiences. Nice job, everyone involved!
Thanks Mr Dean. You are greatly appreciated.
One quick question regarding Bush’s supporters. He seems to get most of his support from Wall Street and corporate executives. Do these occupations tend to attract right wing authoritarians.
Thanks
Mrs. Robinson, I will read your discussions. The effort to change minds seems very important to me. My theory is that people’s views are like an octopus attached by many tendrils and many suckers on each tenacle. The way to change minds is to start by pulling one sucker loose. Start with the weakest one, which is different for everyone. Don’t try to do too much at one time. And don’t gloat when you get that sucker.
Suppose this is not quite topical but . . .
Relatively recent scholarship on the Salem witch trials attributes the cause to Indian “terrorism.” Tituba, the author says, was not a West Indian slave but an American Indian slave. And the community was “terrorized” by the brutality and depredations of Indian conflicts on their doorstep.
While witch trials would not have been possible without the Puritan culture, i.e., belief in the devil and witches, if the author’s research is correct, it is not correct to say that “terrorism” in the early days did not lead to any authoritarian, reactionary or hysterical response.
I haven’t had a chance to read all the comments yet, so this may have beed discussed earlier.
And, I’m sure that I’m writing this too late to really expect a comment from Mr. Dean or Professor Altemeyer, or Glenn, but maybe they’ll check back.
Anyway, I haven’t read Conservatives Without Conscience yet, but I’m wondering about the close relationship between authoritarians (and those who eagerly follow them) and fundamentalists. I’m not a psychologist, but the desire for an “authoritarian” Father, who provides everything for his followers, appears to be the same thing as that which attracts the followers of political authoritarians.
J. Dean @ 289
This is a key concept that the Dems should be communicating in a simple, clear and credible way. I had a chance to speak with Dianne Farrell last week, who is running for Chris Shay’s office. She was talking about conversations she has had with any number of Republicans (albeit most likely not the authoritarian version). When they ask her why she’s running against a nice guy like Shays who had done a lot for CT she asks – but do you like the direction the country is going in? They usually say no. Then she asks them whether they are in favor of checks & balances and oversight in government? They admit that C&B and oversight is critically important – particularly in terms of getting the country back on track. Then she points out that Shays is part of the problem – someone who has been a solid supporter of Bush and his policies (especially on Iraq) and that it’s time for change. (They usually agree – so we’ll see how the election goes.) But my point is, she’s taken some of the key concepts Dean is pointing out. The Dems need to make this issue, i.e. the need to go back to the democracy our founding fathers envisioned before it’s too late the “burning platform” for the 2006 election.
Mr. Dean – if you are reading any late comments, I’m so sorry I missed the discussion (I attended a birthday party for my nephew who turned 10 today.) I wanted to tell you how much I “enjoyed” your book (actually it was profoundly upsetting – but in a constructive way.) It was well-written and well supported and as someone else commented – led to many “Ah hahs.” I really have been trying to understand what has happened to my country – why leaders like Cheney, Bush & Rumsfeld don’t seem to care how they are destroying our country, and why in the world anyone (horrified to find it’s 25%) would believe their often bizarre and illogical lies. Now I understand.
I do hope those in public life consider your book required reading. It certainly puts the lie to the concept that conciliation or attempting to “work with” this group is the way to change where things are headed. It is clear that when someone who opposes what BushCo is doing speaks up, like Al Gore, the mayor of Salt Lake City (Rocky Anderson), Keith Obermann, a few in Congress like Senator Hagel, politicians running for office like Ned Lamont, and yourself – people respond in a big way (even when the MSM tries to ignore them). I wish Dems, Independents and moderate Republicans who are in a position to, would do more standing up and truth telling. I think they would be amazed at the support and strength of devotion and commitment they would receive in return.
Again, thank you Mr. Dean for doing what was best for our country during Watergate (I also was in college and watched the hearings play out) and for your body of work since then.
If we can draft GORE FOR PRESIDENT — CAN WE DRAFT OUR HONORABLE MR. DEAN, HERE, AS SPECIAL PROSECUTOR FOR THE UPCOMING TRIALS OF BUSH, CHENEY AND CABINET ? — THE MAN HAS BEEN TO HELL AND IN THE WORDS OF CHURCHILL , ” IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN HELL, KEEP GOING.” — // WHO ELSE HAS THE DEAN EXPERTISE, KNOWS ALL THE BACK CHANNELS THAT I DOUBT HAVE CHANGED SUBSTANTIALLY? –( AND HE’D HAVE HIS FUN DISCOVERING THOSE AS HE WENT.) CLEARLY, OUR MR. FITZGERALD HAS RUN AGROUND NAMED ROVE. OR IS LISTING SO BADLY, AS TO BE HELPLESS IN THE REPUBLICAN GALES, AND HAS BECOME PART OF THE TEMPLATE ARRANGED BEFORE THE GRAND JURY CONVENED AND COLLAPSED. THE ‘DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR’ , A MARINE CORPS CREED, IS IGNORED BY SO MANY OF OUR REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC HEROES [ snark ] ENSCONCED IN THE CURRENT WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS, AS TO BE AN INEFFECTIVE SLOGAN.
I listened to the Watergate Hearings while driving a D6B Caterpillar tractor around a summer fallow wheat field in Eastern Washington state. Listening to your testimony and the honor and veracity of what it meant to be a public servant came through loud and strong.
It was one of the great moments of American history. Thank you for your noble contributions in helping to cleanse the polluted waters of the American political stream.
chris @ 53
Joe Wilson @ 153
I will certainly convey your regards to Valerie. She appreciates compliments as much as the next person.
Joe Wilson @ 128
I was a grad student in D.C. during the Watergate goings-on, and it was a wild time. Rats scuttling for cover. Martha Mitchell’s strange phone calls in the night. “I am not a crook.”
But in all the madness, John Dean broke from the pack and did what he had to do. I remember his calm demeanor, his quiet logic, his refusal to be intimidated. And I remember his wife as well, a model of dignity while they faced down, together, the Ur-version of SwiftBoating.
I had come to Washington secure in my right-wing politics and fundamentalist Catholic beliefs. No one forced them on me. They were the result of my upbringing, education, and the pleasurable certainty of being “chosen” to know the truth and the rules.
Unfortunately, I fell into good company. None of my new friends shared my patriotic convictions about Viet Nam, so naturally, I had to lead them into the light. It’s a wonder I didn’t wash out of the doctoral program, given the time I spent in the Library of Congress looking for information and well-worded opinions that backed up my own. But while those were the only things I sought, I kept having to weed through contrarian material. And eventually it became apparent, even to my closed mind and stalwart ego, that I was wrong. Intellectual honesty did me in.
So I changed my mind. Simple as that.
No harm ensued. My friends never punished me for taking so long to wise up. They just invited me to join hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters on the Mall. Together, we carried candles to nighttime vigils in front of Nixon’s White House. We made sandwiches and stews and opened our homes to protesters coming in from around the country.
I’m sure Dr. Bob’s research is valid. He strikes me as the kind of professor I most loved. And I identify with his pithiness problems! But I can’t respect the people he’s been talking about, the ones who hand over their minds and moral compasses to “What I Was Taught.” That’s an easy way out of taking responsibility. It’s lazy. Egotistic. Cowardly.
Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.
And really, it’s so easy to look one’s own wrongness in the face and turn away. Yes, my friends helped that first time. But I needed non-critical help to repudiate 20-plus years of stalwart authoritarian beliefs. You may be sure that I held out as long as I could.
In the end, letting go was like shedding a cloak of lead. It wasn’t that I rejected everything I had formerly believed. That’s just as dysfunctional as adhering to everything I had been taught.
What I learned was to keep seeking the truth, wherever it led me. And to stand by it, whatever it cost me.
Sorry to ramble on like this. Spending hours in the company of Mr. Dean, Dr. Bob, Joe Wilson, and the Firedoglake community just brought it all back to me.
It was such a pleasure to meet you at Yearly Kos, I’m the lady who handed you the article on K. Rove. You are a true treasure and without doubt a GENTLE…MAN. You and Valerie have the support of the truth army.
momster @ 361
abarefootboy @
358
Late in the thread, but I have to ask. Would that wheat field be anywhere around Moses Lake?
Mrs. Robinson @
112
That is a major reason why Senators are less likely to win the Presidency than governors or military leaders are.
Wow, I’m sorry I missed the “live” thread; what an incredible discussion!
To Mr. Dean, should you come back through here: my mother was a Goldwater Girl, who has since described herself as having been pushed out of the Republican Party by religious fundamentalists. I will be looking forward to sharing your remark about how Goldwater envisioned himself categorized as a liberal in the future. I also look forward to sharing a copy of CWC with her.
Thank you for being so generous with your time and expertise. I will be waiting for your insights into electronic voting.
beth meacham @
176
I’ve been thinking about authoritarianism (and it’s religious relative, fundamentalism) as a reaction to change. My bet is that the people who choose that route were reared to feel less than competent in handling change by themselves, so they attach themselves to a leader to reduce the anxiety.
The leader has to offer them some form of safe future that they are jointly working for. The reassurance of a leader that what they are doing is right and that it will lead to a utopia of some sort they agree on will be a good part of what brings in the followers.
A problem with Democrats is that many of the messages they send are sent to self-confident people who figure that they need only deal with the most current problem, and they will recognize and handle future problems at that time. That kind of message will give the authoritarian followers the Heebee-jeebees as there is no promise of a safe, secure future and no instructions on how to act to get there.
The authoritarian followers are looking for leaders who give them messages that lower their anxiety, and progressive Democrats need a lot less of that handholding.
This was an amazing discussion and I’m sorry I missed it in real-time. It’s an honor to be able to read the wise and truly patriotic words of John Dean, Glenn Greenwald, Joe Wilson, and FDL authors Jane, Pach and the other regulars.
I want to echo what Glenn said in comment #23:
I wholeheartedly agree, this really struck me when reading this thread. And, as others have noted, with the continued growth of internet-enabled communication technology, our ability to communicate, exchange ideas, and build relationships without the previous, traditional gatekeepers will continue to accelerate. This acceleration should further empower people-powered, decentralized political movements to the detriment of strictly heirarchical movements with a limited constituency. (Of course, we can’t sit back and wait for technology to save the day. Authoritarians can and will exploit technology, and as we know, they’re quite ruthless)
Lastly, to follow what Dr. Bob said at comment 109:
I think that we as citizens can help out in small ways, by simply talking with friends, family, co-workers, people in line at the grocery store… You can remind your fellow citizens that they shouldn’t be afraid, that authority isn’t always right, and remind them of what we all have in common. (I’ve found that super-long security lines at airports make for some receptive ears). It would certainly help if Democratic politicians and leaders took up this refrain.
Thanks again to the leaders here at FDL for organizing this talk. It gives me hope.
It is 3am and I read this tread after the fact in its entirety and I am in awe of this community once again.
John Dean, Dr. Bob, Mr. Wilson and all. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Your thoughts and this community are inspiring.
I also look forward to your work on electronic voting. I think it is important to also look into the statistics behind the “anomolous” exit polls and tie that into the whole black box voting issue. All of our campaigning and convincing the public is a waste if the voting is rigged. Each and every person should be highly disturbed by what has happened in the California special election.
Thanks Jane and Christy for the work you do every day. You are my heroines!
Just got here, so impressed. Was glued to the black & white Watergate hearings and remember John Dean as such a standout…still is I see.
Of all the Book Salons I wanted to be present for, this was it. I think the book if very important. Unfortunately LIFE intervened, and so I am reading it in shadowed time.
Let me once again tug my forelock to the power of the concerned, the collective intelligence found here, our gracious guests, and the toobz.
And now to read to my heart’s content. Thanks all.
montag @
363
Montag .. I farmed for my late father in law at Eureka Farm , located about 4 miles south of Dusty,Washington. We’d put a radio in the tractor with a set of old ear phones cause it was so loud aboard. Such arrangement was very forward thinking for the times. Our local NPR station out of Pullman, KWSU carried the hearings live. At the time the station was less than a year old and was a shinning miracle of intelligence in the vast wasteland.
I would crawl down off the tractor full of a sweet and unusual joy and with the hope that the America I imagined in my heart … was alive and well and that truth and justice always triumphs in the end. Oh .. that it were so. Please God give us a little help down here.
Long live the slowly rising inherent yet sometimes somnolent wisdom of the sleepy headed people of the United States of America… !
Mr. Dean, your book is well-researched and written. It has empowered me immensely. I recommend that everyone read it IN TANDEM with Jimmy Carter’s
Our Endangered Values, a fitting complement.
I just want to add my agreement to what John Dean and others have said about the administration’s calling Islamic terrorists “fascists.” The first thing I thought of when I read Rumsfeld’s speech to the American Legion on August 29th, where the phrase was first used, was “John Dean’s book has smacked these guys right in (a very vulnerable place).” It is an old technique in propaganda–going back to the Big Lie in WWI–that when you are completely and undeniably skewered, you just take everything that people have pointed out about you and say it’s your enemies who are like this. You don’t even bother to deny anything; you simply go on the offensive and holler as loudly as you can. “Conservatives Without Conscience” of course says the Bush administration is taking us down the road to fascism, so the administration sticks the fascism label on America’s enemy to try to keep it from sticking on them, and make it seem they are our defense against fascism rather than its very carriers. In this case it is an absurd lie, because whatever you want to say about Islamic terrorists, they certainly are not fascists in any of the various ways the word has been distinctly used in history. But that won’t matter at all to the choir of high RWAs for whom the administration made up the charge. If they hear later that someone says President Bush is a fascist-like leader, they’ll think “Nonsense. The man’s defending us against this.”
Research I’ve done indicates the Big Lie technique works very well. For example, people (low RWAs as well as high RWAs) are affected by flimsy, ridiculous tracts denying the Holocaust took place, and by articles attacking feminists or homosexuals. (It’s one of the few times that low RWAs did something in one of my experiments that they were probably ashamed of afterwards.)
It’s just my guess, but I suspect that the people who participated in the FDL forum on John Dean’s book yesterday would not have been snookered by the propaganda I used in my studies. As I observed last week, the quality of questions and comments was exceptional, unprecedented in my experience. I suspect John Dean spent so much time answering the questions because he thought there were so many good ones. I was honored to have been asked to participate.
Dr. Bob
J. Dean @ 86 [i.e., to John Casper]
[bold mine] John Casper, were I you, I’d have to consider this suitable for framing!
J. Dean @
293
My own thought on this is that under Gingrich control of the House was centralized and the independent powers of committee leaders sharply reduced. This happened in the 90’s.
Then after the 98 election, Gingrich was replaced by Tom DeLay, who maintained that centralized power and built on it with the K-Street project. The K-Street Project also involved getting the Executive Branch to cooperate when Bush came in, so that the corruption was in fact the way the White House under Bush has prevented any Congressional oversight.
The way that Republican Congressmen gained power in the House was to bring more money in and get more Republicans elected. That money was best obtained by selling budget ear-marks. Those ear-marks required a lot of Executive branch cooperation. A Congressman who tried to perform Congressional oversight lost Executive Branch cooperation, lost campaign donations, and lost power with the DeLay-run House leadership.
The personal enrichment by taking personal shares of the campaign funds was behavior condoned and modeled by DeLay, so its spread to the rest of the House (Cunningham, Lewis, Ney, etc.) was just a normal extension of what was considered appropriate.
I’d guess that when the Republicans took the Senate, they modeled on the House leadership. Trent Lott had been a House contemporary of Gingrich. The White House would have then encouraged this, even more when Frist replaced Lott.
That’s my best guess about how the corruption grew in the Congress.
I realize that this thread is so long and it is so late that no one will read this, but I really wanted to see this set of thoughts written down.
Mr. Dean,
It’s wonderful to have you here, on my favorite blog of all….
I’m amazed at how many other folks here remember fondly the Watergate hearings of our youth!
Back in the day, all activity stopped when the hearings came on, and my mom would yell “Kids out of pool!” and we’d all march into the living room to watch the hearings live, uncensored and gripping, even at the age of 10! I really believe it cemented for many of us an interest in politics and the rule of law.
I’ve read all of your books and especially loved “Worse than Watergate” which you wrote before this disastrous administration had really even begun to wreak havoc. Love the new book as well.
My question: what do you think about 9/11 and the official story? I think many people who would not consider themselves conspiracy theorists are beginning to question the “facts” as presented now that we have 5 years of post-911 activity that doesn’t add up, e.g. where’s osama and do we care, Taliban resurgence, the recent revelations by the 911 commission that they had serious doubts about Cheney/Bush testimony & NORAD testimony about shoot down orders, etc…..Love to hear your take….
Mr. Dean,
If I were a rigid authoritarian, which I’m not, I would realize that the Republicans cannot afford to lose control of the House or the Senate in the fall elections because they cannot govern in the light and heat generated by investigatory hearings. They are most likely to lose control of the House which means Rep. Conyers will be able to roast them day after day after day. Given the polls, I’d realize that my only option would be to CHEAT BIG TIME. That means cancelling the elections to “protect us from the terrists,” or rig the results with the voting machines. Given this criminal administration’s willingness to lie, cheat, kill, and steal elections I join with many others on this site and urge you to apply your analytical powers to what options we have to derail the Republican agenda before it’s too late.
Seriously, I am extremely concerned about what Bush and company are up to behind the scenes, so to speak. I believe they are capable of doing things that are beyond my fertile imagination. Even finding out that I’m nuts would be comforting because then I’d know that it’s just a bad dream.
Yes, just a bad dream . . .
Having now finsihed reading this entire thread, I gotta say I had chills at times. Wow! Thanks to all who particpated.
For both Bob Altemeyer and John Dean: I wonder how many of our contemporary authoritarians just need some authority to follow, and some sort of authoritarian faith to adhere to. I’m thinking of the kind of person described by Eric Hoffer in “The True Believer,” equally able to be a fierce communist or a fierce anti-communist. So perhaps our Bushians can’t be talked out of their beliefs, but will jump to a new host when this one falls. The relevant fact is the underlying authoritarianism, while the shape of the authority of the moment will eventually shift.
Noticed this today on amazon. he he
Bob Altemeyer has a fairly expensive book listed.
Enemies of Freedom: Understanding Right-Wing Authoritarianism (Jossey Bass Social and Behavioral Science Series)
Enemies of Freedom: Understanding Right-Wing Authoritarianism (Jossey Bass Social and Behavioral Science Series) by Bob Altemeyer (Hardcover – Oct 1988)
Used & new from $2,210.26
To 382, “Another Chris,” on the string that just won’t die. Very good question. There is a lot of evidence that authoritarian followers need leaders in their lives more than most people do. But I don’t think they would go from one pole to another very easily. Adult right-wing authoritarians seem to have been socialized from birth to submit to the established authorities in their lives, and they usually stick with them through thick or thin. It was impressive to me how they stuck to Nixon, insisting he hadn’t really done anything wrong even after he accepted Ford’s pardon for the felonies he had committed. In the Soviet Union (and various eastern European countries) the studies have found that the high RWAs stuck with the enormously discredited Communist Party after it had been toppled from power. Maybe eventually authoritarian followers would smarten up and realize they’ve been playing the fool, but they have an astounding capacity for rationalization, compartmentalizing their ideas, denial, and living and not learning.
Speaking of pardons, with reference to earlier postings, the question that occurs to me is, can President Bush give himself a pardon as he leaves office in January ‘09?
Finally, I think the price being asked for that book on Amazon must be a misprint. Or is some social dominator trying to sell his copy?
Glenn, in #80:
If you judge someone based on what they did 35 years ago rather than recently, that says more about them than you.
Did you mean to say this the other way around?
“…that says more about you than them.”
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 136
That’s the whole point, RWA’s respond most to leaders whose points of view don’t change with the facts. Obviously, rational people evaluate new information and assimilate it into their current world view, which may end up altering it. Somehow this is seen as “shades of gray” or “ambiguity” rather than “intelligence.”
I see a couple of new messages addressed my way. Mr. Robinson at 336 observes that what I’ve found in research on how and why people change jives with her own personal experience, and with what she has seen happen in others. Well that’s terrific. Research can often get it wrong.
Badick at 355 wonders if there’s a connection between being an authoritarian follower and being a religious fundamentalist. Yeah, a huge one, which a lot of people have already concluded I suspect. Furthermore, it’s clear that being a high RWA can make you inclined to be a fundamentalist, and being raised a fundamentalist can help make you a high RWA. They can feed each other, reinforce each other in someone’s life. The interesting scientific question that then comes up is which is more basic, important? The answer seems to be, rwa is. It correlates with various prejudices, willingness to strike the Bill of Rights, scary submission to authority, and so on better than fundamentalism does. So the problem is not fundamentalism so much as the fact that it is so often connected with being an authoritarian follower. There are many ways of being “religious,” and there are millions of religious Americans who are not high RWAs. But most fundamentalists and evangelicals are.
Incidentally, if you haven’t alread spotted this yourself, we found our measure of religious fundamentalism appears to identify the same pattern of being an authoritarian follower, being prejudiced, and so on in Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism as in Christianity. The Bush administration (and the Republican candidates running for office now who are following the party line) would seem to be much closer to the truth if they said “the enemy” is certain fundamentalist Muslims, or authoritarian Muslims, not Islamofascists! Maybe they’ll try that next.
The good people at Firedoglake may feel it’s time to turn out the lights on this forum. So good night, and good resolve to us all.
John Dean’s book, Conservatives without Conscience, has provided an missing link for me in my concern of the far right – the authoritarian personnality. It is scary to realize that the Double Highs in the Republican party are about to finalize thier conversion of this county’s government into a single party state with a few token Democrats.
I have read the book and added five posts to my blog, Where Are We Going, The WAWG Blog. One post is about the authoritarian personality and its types, and the other four are about the key Double Highs that are razing our government,
cleter @ 272
I also wonder if a good president can be impeached for having sex, which is nobody’s concern, what happens to a president who makes up a story and brings our country to war, murders 2700 of our soldiers and we find out it was all made up stories.I guess if your republican your allowed.
Having read half way through this rather astonishing thread, I found myself thinking that rather too much was devoted by posters in over-effusive declarations of their respect for John Dean, Dr Bob, and Joe Wilson.
Sure, these people have been doing sterling work, but is all this gushing respect really necessary? If you didn’t know better, you might even start thinking of them as nascent authority figures, albeit not of of the Bush-Cheney variety. Or is the answer to the rise of authoritarianism the construction of counter-authorities?