Conservatives Without Conscience
Here is but one example of the "conservative" ethos back then — John Ashcroft, in 1997, arguing against expanded Federal Government surveillance powers in the wake of the Oklahoma City terrorist attack:
The Clinton administration wants government to be able to read international computer communications – financial transactions, personal e-mail and proprietary information sent abroad – all in the name of national security . . . .
Granted, the Internet could be used to commit crimes, and advanced encryption could disguise such activity. However, we do not provide the government with phone jacks outside our homes for unlimited wiretaps. Why, then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will and in real time to our communications across the Web?
The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value. . . .
Every medium by which people communicate can be exploited by those with illegal or immoral intentions. Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail diaries, open our ATM records or translate our international communications.
There seems to be no limit, literally, on what Bush supporters are eager to defend when undertaken by the administration in the name of "protecting us." No power is too invasive or extreme, no action is too lawless, to provoke their objections. Even restrictions imposed by law are no impediment, as Bush supporters defend radical policies even when they are expressly prohibited by criminal statute. If anything, the principal criticisms — really, the only criticism — which they voice towards the administration is that it has been too restrained, too mild, that it has not gone far enough in exercising unchecked power, both abroad and domestically, in the name of fighting terrorism.
Explaining this fundamental reversal, along with the dynamic that causes so many Americans to support such blatantly un-American policies, is the core project undertaken by John Dean in his best-selling book, Conservatives Without Conscience. To do so, Dean advances two primary arguments:
First, what is currently described as the "conservative movement" bears virtually no resemblance to the conservatism pioneered by Dean’s close friend, Barry Goldwater. The current movement has nothing to do with restraining government power or preserving historical values. Instead, it has embraced radical and historically unprecedented theories of presidential power and has morphed into an authoritarian movement which largely attracts personality types characterized by a desire and need to submit to and follow authority.
Second, because those who submit to authority necessarily relinquish their own conscience (in favor of serving the conscience of their leader and/or their movement), those who are part of this movement are capable of acts which a healthy and normal conscience ought to preclude. They can use torture, break laws, wage unnecessary wars based on false pretenses, and attempt to destroy the reputation of plainly patriotic and honest Americans — provided that they are convinced that doing so advances the interests of the authority they serve and the movement of which they are a part.
The most significant contribution Dean makes to understanding the political forces which have dominated our country for the last five years is that he emphasizes and illuminates the psychological impulses underlying the Bush movement. Dean documents that the "conservative" movement is composed of various factions who actually share very little in common in the way of political beliefs and could not come close to agreeing on a core set of political principles and ideals which define their movement. In the absence of a set of core, shared beliefs, what, then, binds them and maintains their allegiance to this political movement?
The answer Dean provides is the shared hatred of common enemies. And their collective attacks on those enemies have become the conservative movement’s defining attribute. And that is sufficient to maintain allegiance because, argues Dean, what Bush followers crave more than anything else is submission to a powerful authority as a means of alleviating their fears of ambiguity, uncertainty and complexity.
Ultimately, as Dean convincingly demonstrates, the characteristic which defines the Bush movement, the glue which binds it together and enables and fuels all of the abuses, is the vicious, limitless methods used to attack and demonize the "Enemy," which encompasses anyone — foreign or domestic — threatening to their movement. What defines and motivates this movement are not any political ideas or strategic objectives, but instead, it is the bloodthirsty, ritualistic attacks on the Enemy de jour — the Terrorist, the Communist, the Illegal Immigrant, the Secularist, and most of all, the "Liberal."
What excites, enlivens, and drives Bush followers is the identification of the Enemy followed by swarming, rabid attacks on it. It is a movement that defines itself not by identifiable ideas but by that which it is not. Its foreign policy objectives are identifiable by one overriding goal — destroy and kill the Enemy, potential or suspected enemies, and everyone nearby. And it increasingly views its domestic goals through the same lens. It is a movement in a permanent state of war, which views all matters, foreign and domestic, only in terms of this permanent war.
It is a movement devoted to the destruction of its enemies wherever they might be found. And it finds new ones, in every corner and seemingly on a daily basis, because it must. That is the food which sustains it.
The Bush administration’s ability to engage in extraordinary and radical behavior has not occurred in a vacuum. The administration is radical and can act seemingly without limits because its supporters and followers are radical and limitless in their allegiance to its abuses. Understanding the disturbing and dangerous human dynamic which fuels that movement is critical to understanding the movement itself, and ultimately, to defeating it. Dean’s book is a uniquely valuable tool for understanding what the so-called "conservative" movement has become.



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Dean!
Glenn!
That never happens….
Hi everyone
Greetings, Glenn. It’s an honor to have you here.
I have just started John Dean’s book. In the preface there is a great quote from Robert G. Vaughn, which I have been using in conversations with friends when I try to illustrate the secrecy and anti-American characteristics of the Bush Administration.
Great quote.
And Glenn, keep up the good work.
One of the truly appalling things we have seen from the Bush administration this year has been their disavowal of Mr. Dean. It seems that all conservatives, no matter how revered and accomplished, automatically become liberal whackos whenever they differ from the administration.
Great job, Glenn, and welcome.
Here’s an idea, folks: Spotlight this one liberally.
Hi Glenn, thanks for being here. We owe Mr. Dean a big thank you for bringing the underlying
psychologypathology of this administration up now, so we can figure out ways to counter it in the election cycle.What will move the True Believers off their dime?
Please remember also, folks, to remain on topic for this thread.
Thanks!
Their treatment of John Dean is completely consistent with what Dean describes in his book – the lynch mob, hateful swarm that is directed at anyone critical of the administration.
You can see it in every prominent opponent of this administration – the Jack Murtha, Richard Clarke, Joe Wilson treatment — you see it on a daily basis in the right-wing blogosphere – and the treatment of Dean, for instance at the Senate Judiciary Committee – where that cowardly Sen. Cornyn called him a felon and all sorts of other names and then ran away – is exactly what this movement does.
I don’t think the True Believers can be moved at all. When I started blogging, I believed otherwise, but they are too invested personally and psychologically in changing (it is what causes most them, still, to refuse to admit error about Iraq or to acknowledge our project has failed.
The key is to use them to show the country what this movement really is – not to try to reason with them to change their minds.
Glenn -
In your opinion, what is the difference between authoritarian governments and fascist regimes?
Hi Glenn — Dean’s thesis really dovetails well with your theory (original or not — but you were the first one to articulate it that I read) about the authoritarian cultists who populate wingnuttia.
I also think the Digby/Rick Perlstein argument that “conservatism” really doesn’t mean anything explicit, and constantly redefines itself in terms of what it can get away with (ejecting anything that doesn’t work, even former rallying points like Bush himself) has a home along side Dean’s ideas.
Like the Pied Piper, Bush & Co. have led the Republican Party, pretty much in its entirety, down the path where it can now be considered fiscally Liberal. The word “conservative” has lost any meaning it ever had; Goldwater would be horrified. I say this of the Party that now stands for “spend and spend” and “expand the federal government even more”. The Republicans have now become what they criticized the Democratic Liberals for, in spades, spending more than ever before and growing the federal government to a size undreamed of in their worst nightmares. I haven’t been able to find many conservatives who believe in fiscal responsibility, or who disdain a federal bureaurocracy, anymore. So call them what you will, they have all left Hamelin, seduced like children by Bush’s flute playing, more like pigs at the trough of government money, leaving the rats behind, unfortunately.
I haven’t read this book yet but loved “Worse Than Watergate” A real heads up that was missed by many. Thanks to John Dean And Glenn for their attention to truth.
TRex @ 6
Not only that, TRex, but even when testifying before the Senate Judiciary Cmte the republicans were less than polite and Cornyn pointed out that he was a convicted felon. It was a disgusting display.
In your opinion, what is the difference between authoritarian governments and fascist regimes?
I think fascism is a subset of authoritarianism. Authoritarianism requires only a desire to submit to an overriding authority figure and the veneration of that authority above all else – where the strengthening of the authority figure and his followers is paramount.
Fascism requires a lot more specific factors involving the relationship of corporations and the state, attitudes towards racial minorities, etc. Fascism is a right-wing ideology, whereas authoritarianism – as Dean says – can be on the Left or the Right (and has been; Stalinism was a form of authoritarianism). But right now, the American “conservative” movemtent has taken on all of the characteristics of an authoritarian movement.
The logical conclusion of this authoritarian movement should be (I think) self-destruction as the various sects turn on one another. If so, what is the best way to encourage this along? Also, Dean seemed to say that if & when authoritarians can see themselves unfiltered, they can become embarrassed & modify their behavior.
Glenn Greenwald @ 10
When I ran into Perlstein in Chicago he said something to the effect that we weren’t going to win this one by winning the argument. I’ll paraphrase here because of poor memory but it was more about redefining the argument and redrawing the battle lines, and then hammering like hell until they’re realized.
Only much more articulate than that.
I loved “How would a patriot act.” Thanks, Glenn.
Dean’s thesis certainly explains why the administration’s followers (or so-called conservatives in general) are so “anti”-everything, and why they need not reason things through, or be swayed by dialoge and debate.
It’s like trying to explain to Creationists that acknowledging the material facts that support evolution is NOT some scheme to attack their belief system.
In the same way, pointing out the material facts of the last five years–the catastrophic destruction in Iraq, the corruption and cronyism in government, policy failure, lawlessness, and abandonment of normal Conservative principles–is NOT simply an attack on The Other Team.
They can’t seem to get it. That’s why their politics is so shallow. In my opinion.
You can’t move them off the dime. They are into dominance/submission and won’t be argued out of it. I have relations like this in 3 generations. It’s a world view that makes sense and is fulfilling for them to project onto others in the outside world what they dislike or fear in themselves.
Logic and reason don’t work on these rabid folks w/o consciences…what can we do?
I have long wanted to see the Dems FIGHT these folks using some tough language. Call them the haters of Democracy that they are…what do we have to lose at this point? ATTACK!
These folks are just like the ones who followed Hitler and Mussolini.
JANE – Agreed completely. The principal point I made in that post was that Bush followers have no political ideology. They have dispensed with all of it in lieu of allegiance to their movement. That is one of hte premisis of Dean’s argument – that there is no “conservsative ideology” as such any ore than binds them; all that binds them is strengthening the movement in order to attack and defeat the Enemies (the Terrorist, the Immigrant, and especially the Liberal).
They are into dominance/submission and won’t be argued out of it. I have relations like this in 3 generations. It’s a world view that makes sense and is fulfilling for them to project onto others in the outside world what they dislike or fear in themselves.
It is difficult to argue effectively because it’s not susceptible to mathematical proof, because people accuse you of engaging in Pop Psychology, etc., but I really believe that the Bush movement is driven infinitely more by psychological drives than it is by political beliefs. To me, that is the real value of right-wing blogs – they really allow you to see those impulses in the most raw, unedited expression on a daily basis.
Mommybrain @ 8
slade @ 22
Conservatives Without Conscience had a big influence in our family.
CWC helped us recognize the authoritarian personalities in our community.
They’re everywhere – about a third of us are authoritarian follower types, right?
We’ve been having encounters with these people for years without really understanding them.
Even with utmost tact and patience, I’ve never been able to shake their faith in the absurd,
Logic seems useless against blind faith.
So we agree not to talk about politics or religion, just to remain friends.
What about exposing their hypocritical authoritarian leaders?
Does this shock the followers into abandoning the absurd?
Or do they immediately look for new leaders and new enemies?
Can these people be reached in any other way besides arousing fear?
Is reprogramming even a possibility?
Or do we just write them off completely, in spite of the danger they represent?
Glenn @ 16 -
“But right now, the American “conservative” movemtent has taken on all of the characteristics of an authoritarian movement.”
What would, in your opinion, be a historical counterpart to the conservative authoritarian movement that the Republican Party has become?
The logical conclusion of this authoritarian movement should be (I think) self-destruction as the various sects turn on one another. If so, what is the best way to encourage this along?
I agree completely. Failing to exacerbate those wedges is, in my view, one of the biggest failings of liberals. Dean lays out the different factions who compose the conservative movement and how they really agree on almost nothing.
And it’s not just that they don’t agree on much; they vehemently, even violently disagree, on many things. Immigration is a perfect example. The Dubai port deals was another. The economic conservatives conflict with the social conservatives on all sorts of things. The fear-driven terrorist obsessive authoritarians are always angry if the most extremist policies possible aren’t pursued or any moderation is shown.
I think it’s critical to do everything possible to inflame those differences. Particularly as the movement fails, they will turn their angry, hateful methods inwards and start attacking each other, trying to avoid blame. That is the key tipping point that needs to be reached. I think we’re seeing some of that now.
Thanks for being here, Glenn.
What is it going to take for us as a country to be less divided?
Another Great Depression, or a true World War? I see little hope of changing authoritarian minds at this point, without some disaster befalling us.
Hi Glen,
Great synopsis of Dean’s book. I just finished my second read. I think this book and George Lakoff’s work are must reads for understanding the modern
conservative“right wing authoritarian” movement. How can we use the information that Mr. Dean has given us? It seems to me that as a start we should be integrating the “A” word (authoritarian) into our descriptions of that movement. But that’s not enough. I think that what I got from Dean’s book is that the ingredients for a Facist type regime are in the right wing mixing bowl. Hoping that their incompetance will derail the movement is not enough. How do we proceed?BTW… your blog and your book rocks!
Perhaps this was not what Goldwater meant by “conservative,” but it darn sure fit with Father Coughlin, Joe McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, Robert Welch, and–more often than folks would like to believe–William F. Buckley as well.
Indeed, the architecture of the Bush Administration was built by men who got their first taste of power in the Nixon Administration–which had many of the same goals as the Bush Administration, but lacked the movement infrastructure to back them up.
This is the real challenge, as I see it–how to distinguish and disentangle the relatively healthy and the deeply malignant strands of American conservatism. Collectively, Burke has always been on their lips, but De Maistre has never been far from their hearts.
I should note that I say this as someone who’s in the midst of a series of posts devoted in part to drawing the distinction between conservatives and reactionaries. There clearly are distinctively different central tendencies, and outright reactionaries are relatively small in numbers. But over time–particularly by adroitly picking and demonizing enemies of convenience–reactionaries have managed to get conservatives to go along with a very large chunk of their agenda.
Margot @ 28
This is something I have been thinking about as well. The tragedy of 9/11 was that we had real unity and consensus in the days after the attacks, and then the Bush administration squandered it. Is it going to take another disaster to bring us together or will it polarize us even further?
Inevitably, bad things will happen. The question is how we handle them.
I am of the belief that Grover Norquist’s bathtub remark is not far off of their real plan, to underfund government to the point it’s almost completely ineffectual. I couldn’t tell if Dean thinks similarly or not. My interpretation is that he thinks the incompetence is an unintended consequence of their stupidity and cupidity and not a means to an end. What do you think?
The secrecy and self-righteousness of this bunch makes it impossible to know the full extent of what they’ve done to the government infrastructure, but I suspect that most of it makes not giving federal scholarship money to anyone studying evolutionary biology look like a rational policy.
I enjoyed both Glenn’s book and Conservatives without Conscience for the insights into the minds of these faux “conservatives”, who are really authoritarians. However the end of the Dean book is rather a downer – he quotes Professor Altemeyer, whose research is the basis for the authoritarian thesis, that “Proabably 20 to 25 percent of the adult American population is so right wing authoritarian, so scared, so self-righteous, so ill-informed and so dogmatic that nothing you can say or do will change their minds.”
This is a disturbing number. Is the only way to get to these people to destroy their leaders?
My other question is, how did these people get this way? Obviously a lot is entwined with fundamentalism, but what other forces are at play? My greater concern is that these are also the people that want to destry public schooling, molding more and more kids into the same mind set. If we can’t change the adults, how can we limit their influence?
Thanks for the opportunity for discussion.
Given the low turnout of voters compared to some other places Americans often tune out the politics around them. The Bush administration would have taken advantage of this regardless of 9/11, that just made easier for them. Some of the boys had been working for reshaping the Middle East(and the Unitied States-Rove wanting a long lasting Repub majority)for a long, long time. When you haved the type of personality that seems to dominate the Repubilican Party today, very conservative Christians(who love being told what to think), you end up with a very reactonary regime and the ends justify the means.
Thank you Mr. Dean and Mr. Greenwald for being here, and for fighting the good fight every day. You’re both modern day patriots.
Sometimes I fanatasize what our next president (D) would be able to say in the inaugural address. How to explain what has gone wrong and what to hope for in the next 4 years, with Bush and Cheney standing near. How will the truth be best announced after the authoritarian nightmare has been defeated? What would Kennedy say?
I haven’t bought this book yet but it’s in my shopping cart. I totally enjoyed Mr. Deans “Worse Than Watergate”. Great post Glenn!
These CWCs are from various groups and I’m all for putting wedges between them and getting them to fight each other.
But it seems as if there is an Oz behind the curtain (rove) who always know how to unite them by using HATE. I believe John Dean talks about that in his book.
The CWCs hate women and gays….it’s as if the religious segment is 100% based on this.
It always strikes me now when I hear these “leaders” spout fear of the “terrorists” and “islamofascists” or the new bon mot of the day etc, that if I close my eyes and listen, they are speaking the very same nonsense they ascribe to the “enemy”. How can we make the American public see this for what it is? That our democracy and republic is being ripped away while they “spread democracy” around and continue to be the “moral leaders” that their followers crave and clamor for so they can sleep better at night and find comfort in their xenophobia and justification for their actions?
Glenn Greenwald @ 23
But aren’t there Bush followers that can be (and in some cases already are being) peeled off? IIRC, Dean’s estimate of the genuine authoritarian followers was about 30% of the electorate. Doesn’t that mean there’s another 15-20% that can be pried away?
What is the appeal of the Bush message for that 15-20% (or whatever the precise percentage is), and how can they be pulled over to the side of sanity?
(I was planning to have an in-depth post written on the this subject in time for the book salon, but the Armitage news blew up that notion.)
The complete lack of conscience – of any sense of responsiblity to any community other than the inside circle – is a defining characteristic. Dean isolates and highlights that very well. It is how they can make such completely arbitrary and contradictory statements without a flinch.
I think the mothlike attraction to power is an integral piece. The core group also attracted some relatively mainstream conservatives early on. Those seemed to become so enamored with the power and they were able to rationalize some of what they originally did, based upon the fact that we do have real enemies and we did face a horrible event for our nation. In the end, they were spit out just a without honor and without conscience.
One area where it becomes so clear that they have no moral center is the wiretap program. It’s not “the worst” of what they have done, but it shows how without care of consequence they are willing to operate. If the courts truly have the strength of will to declare the obvious – what happens? Every conceivable option to the “what happens” question has abhorrent aspects and involves either the people or the principles that support this country taking a tremendous hit – none of which need ever have happened.
The core are without conscience and those who laid down with them for the power are beyond contempt.
mrobinsong says:
Sometimes I fanatasize what our next president (D) would be able to say in the inaugural address. How to explain what has gone wrong and what to hope for in the next 4 years….What would Kennedy say?
Not Kennedy, but FDR: “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.”
I remember very well the pressure President Clinton was under in 1997 and I know that he tried his best to assuage the right with programs that he probably wouldn’t have pursued in other circumstances. He did in effect hand the right the basis for many of the things we complain about today.
My question is what will the right do when the Dems are exercising the same powers they are now defending? and what can we do to try and engage these people in responsible dialogue?
Glenn Greenwald @
11
I agree that reasoning with them is useless. The difference is more psychological than political. Authoritarian followers are frightened people who can’t stand ambiguity and uncertainty. The most emotionally primitive of them can’t even tolerate minor differences.
I don’t think that frightening them is a useful tactic either as it tends to make them dig in.
Embarrassment is the best weapon. Shining the light on. Calling things by their right names. Like Lies and Failure and Dishonesty.
“Instead, it has embraced radical and historically unprecedented theories of presidential power and has morphed into an authoritarian movement which largely attracts personality types characterized by a desire and need to submit to and follow authority.
I’m not sure I would frame it this way- I’d say that they identify heavily with authority and authoritarian mindset, and thus feel powerful themselves. Powerful, not submissive.
Is this a distinction worth making?
To swopa at 40, maybe those non-authoritarian, pro-Bush people just see Bush et al. as good for business. Does pure self-interest equal not having a conscience?
Valley Girl @ 45
Perhaps so, in the sense that the desire is to feel powerful, but the dirty secret is that in fact they’re being submissive. Which I’d guess would make them extremely ornery and defensive when challenged.
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NO OT DURING BOOK SALON
The authoriatrians today love to harp back to the good old days when the whiteman was in charge, the 1950’s being an example. I remember seeing JFK pass by in his car when I was 8 years old. I was part of that generation that was inspired to serve my country through the Peace Corps. Both Nixon and Reagan scared me in their attitude of arrogance. I hated Reagan as Governor of California and almosted stayed overseas when he got elected. With this current administration justice is no longer for everybody. The world changes around us and they are afraid of it because they don’t control it.
I heard 2 interesting things watching tee vee this am. On C-SPAN’s morning show, Michael Rubin of AEI (of the Iran is a grave and immediate danger school) said Dr. Rice was doing a lousy job and that being a celebrity was not enough. In light of the recent Harper’s article, I found it significant.
On MTP Kate O’Beirne (fibbing like mad) said NR had never been 100% behind Iraq War.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the Iraq debacle is clear when to them.
i know one thing for sure, the young adult generation will own these issues, and they aren’t afraid of them. The president they remember and honor is Clinton, not JFK, LBJ, Carter. They weren’t heartbroken by leader assasinations, they were disgusted by Bush’s lies and manipulations. I love this generation of young adults who have taken over our local Dem party organizations, by running for the offices. My eldest son gave everyone leather-bound copies of The Constituion for Christmas. They give me hope.
Paul Rosenberg @ 41
Yeah. I appreciate that quote more than ever since reading the book since Dean asserts that the RWAs (right wing authoritarians) are all about causing fear. What a difference.
I agree about driving the wedges between their colalition. A good place to start would be to peel off the libertarians over the NSA spying on Americans. I was stuck in the book that I’m on the same side as Bob Barr and Phyllis Schlafly with this one. That’s creepy and yet empowering.
Glenn Greenwald @ 26
Agreed. Also having nice flare-ups on the “electability” front, watching Hagel throw Shays under the bus this morning for abandoning the party line on the war was fun. I think the strongest fault lines probably lie between their own love of power, and when one gets threatened by another — as in the need to for candidates to distance themselves from Bush and his war in order to succeed at the polls that we are now seeing — we’re going to have some nice spectacle. Not to mention opportunity.
They get their power from the Movement….their Leader. They will do anything for the Movement. They really don’t want power….they want to be told what to do.
Thankfully, they are only 20 to 23 % of the population….however, a very noisy part of it.
Perhaps so, in the sense that the desire is to feel powerful, but the dirty secret is that in fact they’re being submissive. Which I’d guess would make them extremely ornery and defensive when challenged.
We’ve certainly seen plenty of orneriness and defensiveness from them– I was stunned to see the anger from dubya in his last presser.
lemma @ 50
Of course they weren’t. They were behind it 1,000%.
I think what disturbs me is that the coming together of Americans after 9/11 was prelude to and pretext for the rise of nationalism, concentrating more and more power in the government. That nationalism is disguised as concern for national security, but given the woeful lack of real efforts in that regard – port and rail security and safeguarding of nuclear facilities – it is becoming clearer to me, anyway, that the focus on increased surveillance of individual lives is part and parcel of the kind of nationalism that, allowed to fester unchecked, will lead to more and more encroachment on individual liberties, and consolidation of power in too few individuals (who will be reluctant – if not intransigent – about giving it up).
I think so too. THere is the description of the Bush basketball game, where he basically threw unnecessary and almost pointless elbows and hits, for the sole purpose of throwing the other team leader off his game. The concept that “lash out without reason” gets you further than a thought through strategy. “Shock and awe” is just about as fitting a theme as they could have come up with for a military campaign under his leadership.
It’s why 9/11 shook him so as well, IMO. Bin Laden borrowed from his playbook. A seemingly pointless, but massively destructive blow from out of “left field.” They are such flip sides of the coin. Both espousing God, both engaging in moral equivalencies, both thinking they can reduce the other to “shock and awe.” Bin Laden at least studies his enemy some, but has weird beliefs that show the limits on his study (like the belief that the union of the states can be broken by his actions) and Bush is just flat too stupid and/or too unwilling to even attempt an understanding. It is all too easy to believe that he took us to war in Iraq with no idea that there might be any difference between Shiites and Sunnis.
Ignorance has to remain an artform for his kind of approach. The same authoritarian desires are found at the heart of fundamentalism – whether Islamic or Christian – and it is why they (Bush and Bin Laden) each can exploit so well and so easily within faith and why science is so antithetical to them and why compassion is reduced to a commodity for use as a political propaganda point.
It is also how some true liberals, just as much as true conservatives, were orignally sucked in – the conservatives for the power, the liberals for the need to believe, especially in the emotional times of 9/11, that the compassion was really there. It’s made it almost harder for liberals who were sucked in to confess their failing – because they don’t have the lure of power and money to use as an excuse. They only have the fact that they were suckers.
Glenn– do you think that there are a fair number of Dems who also submit to authority?
I do.
Thanks Glenn for your introduction here, your book, and your fine work at your blog.
How odd to consider that we always thought that the Revolution would come from the Fists-Raised Liberal & Progressive side of the spectrum, yet see through the arguments of John Dean’s book that this has occurred in unforseen ways through the extreme right wing authoritarian conservatives. That it was a revolution brought about by bringing people face to face with their fears and not with the exuberant HOPE that so many of us envisioned is of interest. This book read in tandem with your book, Glenn, and with American Theocracy paints a picture of a nation dragged off course with great help from the pulpit. I agree that we need some hard hitting voices on the side of common sense and the commonwealth–people willing to call things as they are in as direct a manner as the talk radio/tv “pundits” employ. Perhaps pointing out inconsistencies would work for some, but I think offering ALTERNATIVES would work best to pull disgruntled Republicans into voting for change.
I do know hard core Republicans who can hardly wait for this crew to take its harebrained (sorry rabbits) ideology back to the hinterlands. One went so far as to say that we need to bring our troops home and figure out how to take the same $$ and rebuild Iraq. I think there are those out there willing to vote for Democrats, more and more all the time. What we need now are more fearless correct-thinking Dems!
Glenn,
Thanks for all you do. Regarding the so called conservatives, I think many have been programmed to have an abiding hatred of any kind of ambivalence.
Ambivalence is not necessarily weakness IMHO. It means an ability to be able to appreciate that there may be valid arguments on both sides of a given issue. Of course acquiring ambivalence requires a bit more work than simply accepting as gospel the position of some ordained leader. So I guess I’m equating authoritarianism with intellectual laziness.
Swopa @ 55
Oh lordy. That is funny.
angie @ 59
The research Dean draws on, from Canadian researcher Robert Altemeyer, strongly indicates that RWAs play a much less significant role in the Democratic Party. While RWA is only modestly correlated with party membership, either in the US or Canada, the correlations grow increasingly strong the higher up one goes.
A series of studies involving state legislatures over a period of a few years was most revealing. While there were one or two Democrats who scored deep into “Hitler” territory, Louisiana was the only legislature in which the Dems didn’t score significantly lower overall than the Reps did.
This is not to say it’s absent among Dems. But it’s not the glue that holds things together.
TRex @ 31
I would ask what galvanized public opinion on 9/11? My own feeling is that it was revenge–it was precisely that emotion which Bush stoked in the days afterward–and which has given rise to exactly the “Bushism” that’s become so apparent among the undifferentiated right wing. If there was unity immediately after 9/11, it was a dangerous one–given that public opinion was being manipulated rather crassly by both media and the White House in that time.
I’d go as far as saying that Bush didn’t squander that consensus at all. He created it, and pointed it in the direction the neo-cons desired.
For that reason, I’d submit that the previous suggestion to work to break up alliances among those rightist groups is necessary, but, more important is to understand how that consensus came to be and what it is. In very short order, the White House and the media combined to create a cult of personality around Bush, and showing Bush for exactly what he is (an empty suit) will begin that process of fracturing that cult.
The thing these goobers on the right fear most is impotence. They transfer their own personal fears of that to a larger schema, that of national potency–as evidenced by the swaggering being done in the last few years. So, showing Bush to be impotent and ineffectual is the primary means by which those fractures begin.
Cheers.
As we speak of this particular authoritarian movement we face today, perhaps one distinction would help. It’s the one Aristotle made between two sorts of authoritarian regimes, one aristocratic and the other despotic. The former he defines as the rule of the few for the sake of all, and the latter (our present reality) as the rule of the few for the sake of the few.
Either way, however, Aristotle’s view is actually quite dark for those of us who would welcome the rule of the many for the sake of all. To get there, given the poor condition of American civic education, will require a double transformation.
First, multitudes of present day followers need to be turned away from their beloved depots. Then, once that tall order is filled, they need to be transformed into active, informed, thinking citizens. Some stretch, that two step.
Sara Robinson has been holding something of an equivalent discourse, as guest-blogger on David Neiwert’s blog.
She’s been reading ‘Conservatives Without Conscience,’ writing about her experiences helping people who are trying to escape fundamentalist religion, and deserves readership.
And Neiwert does, too. :-)
This may be related. Re: Buyers remorse. Well, at least they’re talking about it.
In 5th District, Democrats looking back at ‘74, not ‘94
By Scott Sexton
JOURNAL COLUMNIST
snip
High fuel costs. Economic difficulties – inflation in 1974, soaring federal deficits in 2006. Unpopular wars – Vietnam fresh in voters minds in 1974, Iraq raging today.
“And a president who wouldn’t tell the truth about anything,” Neal said. “Richard Nixon and Mr. Bush seem to have the same problem in that regard.”
http://www.journalnow.com/serv…..&path=!localnews!scottsexton!&s=
Burnet Oliveros @ 44
Authoritarian leaders are not embarrassed easily.
Embarrassment (and humor) can work on the follower types, but unless it’s done with great care they will hate you for it.
Let’s admit it, there’s an authoritarian in all of us.
Have you ever had an Ebenezer Scrooge moment?
brownandserve @ 61
Programmed or not, I think that’s absolutely (and unambivalently!) a key part of the equation.
Ambivalence frightens them. So they pick a side and believe whatever the party line is.
“What we need now are more fearless correct-thinking Dems!”
Trying to think of some…..almost got it…..nope.
I wonder if “authoritarian followers” are just the adult version of “Class Pets”. If so, then I have a better understanding of authoritarian followers.
Ghostman
Thanks for your efforts and this discussion. I wonder if you think there is some reason this very unamerican movement has prospered/developed now? It seems we have always had this vein of thought but it never really took hold. End of the cold war? globalism/ lessening of nationalism? or is it all just 9/11?
One wonders whether there will be a moment when the whole thing falls apart, such as the Welch comments essentially ending McArthyism, perhaps it was Katrina. In any case the truly scary part is that as the population in the “bunker” gets smaller, they get more radical, desperate and delusional and it is difficult to imagine them NOT attacking Iran.
Paul Rosenberg@63
The Dixiecrats became the Southern arm of the Republican Party.
Cliff @ 65….I’d be happy if we could just ridicule these fundies back into their churches like was done in 1925 with the Scopes Trial…Dean mentioned that in his book.
Ridicule their hypocrisy!
Maybe if the Dems started talking about the “authoritarian conservatives” of the GOP, that would help get people seeing it that way. Nothing like a bit of helpful labeling and framing.
Besides, always define them if you can, before they can define themselves.
Thanks, Paul @ 63. I have not finished the book, but I do wonder if most of the dems are not still ascribing to the follow- the- fear- leader- factor in order to save their personal hides and have yet to regain their innate independence from that and are forsaking so much.
montag @ 64
I beg to differ. The feeling I felt on 9/11, and the feeling I saw others feel, was a deep spiritual realization of how fragile life is. People were so NICE to one another afterwards, even total strangers. NYC still shows that effect. Bush high-jacked a moment of national trauma & potential spiritual transformation into his destructive agenda. His Pearl Harbor.
RT- Bernie Sanders calls them right-wing extremists. Would this work?
My apologies, Jane. It wasn’t completely OT. It was related to Glenn’s post at his site. Soon you will be investigated by the FBI as a terrorist if you are too assertive about getting a refund from the supermarket for sour milk.
mrobinsong says:
Sometimes I fanatasize what our next president (D) would be able to say in the inaugural address. How to explain what has gone wrong and what to hope for in the next 4 years….What would Kennedy say?
Not Kennedy, but FDR: “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.”
Kennedy would likely have to repeat himself:
“When we got into office, the thing that surprised me the most was that things were as bad as we’d been saying they were.”
John F. Kennedy
1,255 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Glen and Fldlers:
Conservatives Without Conscience is indeed an important book and is certainly timely in this potentially watershed political season. HOWEVER…Mr. Dean has a dog in this fight and it is not just his proximity to Goldwater but his participation in the other recent attempted fascist coup, the Nixon nightmare.
It seems to me, and I am not yet all the way through the book, that Dean is tryin’ to disarticulate our current fascist administration from the historical body of American fascism in order to present a sanitized version of American conservatism. The current Bush concept of authoritarian executive power is NOT unique in American history and, indeed, takes its place in a larger context of world fascism which has social and philosophical structures very much a part of contemporary academic and intellectual life.
One does not hafta strain to see the historical footprints of American fascism starting in that terrible compromise of convenience in the Constitutional Convention, thru the articulation of the political philosphy of the Firebreathers of J.C. Calhoun and Henry Clay thru to the KKK and the Jim Crow Dixicrats and the current southern congressional leadership.
Do not be fooled…what we are fightin’ today is a continuation of the Civil War that we gave up fightin in 1877.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE NEXT ELECTION IS LIKELY TA BE OUR LAST!!!
AZ Matt @ 73
The research I’m referring to was done in the early 90s. So the Dixiecrats were pretty much gone. Just the Blue Dogs left.
slade @ 74
Be they fools or children, I take no comfort from driving them further down. I prefer to see them as poor lost souls, not even evil, just folks doing a lousy job of making sense — and reluctant to admit they been played for rubes.
If we get rid of them in the next 2 election cycles, we will need to craft the story of what happened, who they were, what was the harm to the country, and how we are united in intention to never let them get their hands on the levers of power again. Not a tall order for progressives who know this story by heart, but it needs to become part of history. When our side wins, will we write the story? Or shove it under the carpet like a dysfunctional family secret?
There are many legitimate criticisms to be made about the Bush presidency.
Be careful about citing to Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience,” though. That book contains serious logical errors that undermine its message.
Burnet Oliveros- I had the same reaction as you. But, there were also some who undoubtely wanted revenge, and Bush exploited that.
My idea of hell: Kate O’Beirne, Mary Matlin, Ann Coulter, Katherine Harris. And me, alone and tied up in room with these women, and them having knowledge of my political views.
brownandserve @ 2:57 pm (#61)
I think ambivalene can be construed as weakness, depending on what causes it. That’s the problem, you’re required to understand someone else’s motivations, which isn’t easy. It’s not always easy to understand one’s own ambivalence.
The point about authoritarianism being equated with intellectual laziness is a good one, I think. For whatever reasons, these phenomena often occur together. I remarked in another thread here a few weeks ago that one thing I’d noticed about folks who aren’t good at thinking is that they find someone, in essence, who will do their thinking for them. That person is seldom the most thoughtful in the group.
Near the end of the book, Mr. Dean says we are not on the road to facisim yet (”Are we on the road to facisim? Clearly we are not on the road yet.” p. 180). Using his metaphor, if we are not on the road to facism, what road are we on? Putting it another way, if facism is a destination, clearly we are not there yet, but it seems to me we are on a path headed toward that destination. Perhaps a better use of the metaphor would be to say we are still in a rural area on a dirt road that leads to a paved road headed for that destination.
In any event, I think Dean punted here.
Good to hear Norske.
Ghostman – I think a bit more in line with the second tier group – who desparately wanted to be teacher’s pet and lived for the moments when they got the nod of approval that they were too often denied. The needy. IMO,fwiw
Maybe these CWCs are cyclical….they come and they go in their power in societies. Does History tell us what us Liberals/Progressives need to do?
I’m still thinking ridicule, attack, ridicule, attack. Why aren’t Dems good at this? Well, I should say elected Dems, I guess.
The stories hitting the news seem to prove your point Norske. fight the good fight
Can these thoughts go anywhere?:
As I dimly recall, the original impetus of Women’s Liberation, which came to be called The Women’s Movement, was overcoming authoritarianism in the home. This led to the recovery movements, which exposed, and showed us a way out of, dysfunctional relationships, which always have an authoritarian foundation. There appears to be a 20 to 35 percent of the population deeply and implacably opposed to this global change. And they always will be. For decades they were held in check by Republicans and Democrats with reasonably ‘democratic’ states of mind *and* unquestioned secularity. And at least they were masters in their own homes.
What to do about the dysfunctional politicians, yammering TV and radio publicists, and seemingly dim-witted journalists when their like control the media. And so on.
Paul Rosenberg @ 81
Every generation has its decisions to make and, yes, the Republican Party selects those American “values” it finds useful to hold on to power with. But traditions do carry forth and while the Dixiecrats have long gone much of their intolerance continued in the existing political machines in the South. The Republicans did not take control overnight but played on peoples fears, not their hopes, and continue to do so today. There are plenty of Zell Millers out there still.
Mary- astute as ever. I buy the idea from several to drive wedges between the different ill-matched “allies” in the right-wing extremist movement. So, how would you do this?
The authoritarians – those who need to follow them and those who need to be them – are always with us. Let’s keep power away from them using The Constitution. That’s what it’s for and why it was crafted.
Peter Thomas @ 84
Well, given that this is a thread devoted to discussing Mr. Dean’s book, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what those are.
Simply claiming that there are “serious logical errors” without any explanation or support is about as helpful as informing us that, in your opinion, Dean is a poo-head.
Peter Thomas @ 84
Hmm. . Anything you’d like to cite there, Peter Thomas?
molly bloom @ 3:17pm (#88)
We’re probably on multiple roads, some of them seemingly contradictory – fascism and socialism, “global warming” and “global dimming”, extinction and overpopulation. I think if I were writing such a book, I’d want to be really sure that’s the road before I said we were on the way to fascism, or whatever.
Authoritarian seems like such a nice word for what they are. Bullies is what this administration is filled with. They are just that. There is no way you can use logic on a bully. There is no way you can get them on your side. Being a patsy to what they do only feeds their urge to do more of the same.
Jane’s comment above about redefining the argument on our terms and then beating them down is the only way we can move forward. We have to call them on EVERYTHING.
I also liked montag’s theory about impotence being their fear.
There’s nothing more silly than an impotent bully. It is our job to do the best we can to make them look silly and then stand firm on our principles of bringing the country together and making the government work for the people and not the other way around.
Cliff at 82: I wish I could think of them as ‘lost souls.’ I have some of them in my family…..they’re rabid. And they believe their hatred is holy.
I will try, however, for my own sanity to look upon them as needy.
My view is we’re on the turnpike to fascism. Very close corporate connections to the Bush government is but one example.
mrobinsong @
83
This is very, very, very, very, very important, and the narrative should start being written right this very second, not later. There needs to be a better name for them… RWA doesn’t cut it. ‘Movement conservative’ requires too much explanation. ‘Know-nothings’ harkens back to history, but doesn’t reflect the danger. What’s the best nickname?
Also another shout-out to Neiwert, who’s on top of the Is-it-fascism-yet? question. He says we’re in a state of ‘pseudo-fascism,’ which could easily break through the membrane and turn into something that’s definitionally fascist. This from a guy who writes books about Japanese internment and white supremacists.
RevDeb @ 99
Since Rush Limbaugh got caught with Viagra at the Miami Airport I think you both hit nail on the head.
Dean talks about conscience and obedience on p. 42 and how individual conscience often changes being subordinated to the group. What this admin. has done is to silence and intimidate those who have a good conscience. That’s part of their war on whistleblowers. The more that we can get the back of those whose good conscience’s prevail, the better chance we have of turning things around. IIRC
Burnet Oliveros @ 77
Try looking at this from a less provincial point of view. New York City didn’t decide that consensus–Bush did. NYC didn’t decide the public mood across the country. Bush did. In fact, that’s what he did from the moment he got back to the White House. What defined his visit to NYC, four days later? His bullhorn moment. The White House and the media made it all about him–and his message was revenge. That was what helped begin this cult of personality which is now so prominent.
Everything you say about the prevalent attitude in NYC may be true. But, that attitude didn’t come to dominate in the rest of the country. Bush’s views dominated (even to the extent that some three-quarters of soldiers in Iraq still think, even at this late date, they’re avenging the events of 9/11).
Whether you think that Bush hijacked the moment or not (and, certainly, that’s the situation), the issue is not how NYC felt, but how the country felt. The people of NYC didn’t determine that national public mood–people in the White House, with the aid of the media, did. That was the beginning of the cult of personality of which we’re speaking.
Cheers.
angie @ 76
The forces that Dean is writing about are powerful but psychological forces alone don’t move mountains. They have to be harnassed, directed and, ultimately, institutionalized. The Dems, IMHO, are shackled by their own institutionalized weaknesses. The fear plays a role in driving them, of course. But I would say that the Dems basic problem goes all the way back to the New Deal coalition, which was a bizarre patchwork affair encompassing everything from Marxists in the ranks of labor to fascists in the ranks of the Southern KKK.
The Democrats and their single-issue allies that Kos never tires of railing against are the product of a very long, deeply instutionalized historical process, with even deeper roots in Enlightenment political theory, social science and cultural norms. For all their talk about America and freedom, the NeoBushCons are deeply opposed to all of that, to everything since the outbreak of the English Civil War, actually. And it’s just incredibly hard for the Versailles Dems to get their minds around that simple fact.
They are so used to working on a much smaller scale. Passing this or that bill. Winning this or that election. They simply cannot think big, or think long-term, so they can’t see what’s really happening.
That’s what we are for.
RevDeb- great point about them being bullies. That really is a way to understand what they are about. I’d say, there is nothing more impotent than a silly bully. Bush is increasingly being seen that way. Cheney, not so much. He is a dangerous bully, and I don’t see how to make him look silly.
I’m only halfway through the book myself at this point, and I’m impressed overall with Dean’s argument, but I have to agree with the sentiments I’m seeing here that Dean seems to be trying to distance the “true conservative” movement of Goldwater, et al. from the current crop of Bush followers (I was using that term, by the way, before I ever read Unclaimed Territory, but I love seeing Glenn use it).
I would love to believe that there is some core of “pure” conservatives out there who differ markedly from the crowd in charge at the moment, and who could provide a needed conservative voice in the national dialog so vital to democracy, even if I would rarely agree with them. However, this group, if it exists, has had more than 10 years to try to take their party back from the authoritarian crowd, and I personally haven’t seen much of an effort on their part.
In short, they seem to be having this huge attack of conscience and principle only now, when the utter debacle produced by their party is obvious for all to see.
We can’t take their party back for them, and if they truly are aghast at Bush and his ilk, they need to do more than write a few books.
Valley Girl @ 106
how about his shooting a guy in the face?
In light of Bush’s numbers, I found this reminder encouraging (and maybe why he says we’re not yet on the road to fascism): Dean, in the preface, (paraphrasing) recounted that 62% of Americans, according to a Washingon Post poll, did not approve of Clinton’s impeachment. The GOP leaders moved forward in order to “please the party’s ‘base’” The result was that the House lost five seats; the Senate gained none during the 1998 mid-terms.
I think all the rest of us need to realize what’s going on and know that we can put a stop to it.
Enoch Root @ 102
Dittobots? ;)
Celebrate Ambivalence!
Late in the mix as usual.
There is a certain urgency here. Dean is spot on in his observations and there is a critical need for all of us to go past Dean’s work to seek and employ a strategy to overcome this toxin.
In my thinking it nearly always seems to end in some violent overthrow: beat up the bully so he can’t fight back again, or god forbid war (WWII).
Even during the McCarthy era public exposure and humiliation only softened their ridiculous attempts at authoritarian control.
Swopa @ 97
He tries to smile, but I do detect faint traces of Eeyore, actually.
RevDeb @ 109
I sometimes think of him as Scrooge McDuck, with that quacking “Gnrrrr!” sound he makes. Although, also, he is the main one of the bunch that makes me think that he thinks, somehow, gaining this much power will mean he won’t die. Which makes him pathetic, if not silly.
I am delighted to see Glenn Greenwald here; a blogger whom I very much admire. Welcome to FDL.
I’ve been thinking of what other helpful techniques — besides driving wedges between the sub-groups in the coalition of authoritarians — can be employed.
One thing that comes to mind is a phenomenon I’ve noticed in people I’ve known personally who worship authority in this mindless way:
driving cognitive dissonance levels way, way up causes the psyches of these people to unravel publically.
Remember Richard Nixon’s creepy unravelling psyche the day he left the White House? All that stuff about his sainted mother? It’s as if he reached a state of cognitive dissonance overload, and he couldn’t help himself — all that subconscious stuff just poured out. It wasn’t just that it “floated to the surface,” he couldn’t help pouring it out in a huge stream of consciousness.
If these folks are pushed in the right way in a public venue, the same thing will happen.
The benefit of this is not to the poor mentally disturbed person him/herself. No, the benefit is to the audience.
Everyone gets to see how their psyches unravel. It ain’t a pretty sight, either. People tend to recoil in horror and finally see what they’re dealing with.
As I said, I’ve seen this happen close up, in person, although it usually wasn’t in a political context, but rather a personal one — familial, or in an intimate community setting (church, clubs, etc.) — but it certainly needs to be exploited by the sane in the political world in order to identify and isolate the INSANE.
VG @ 95 – I think ridicule, already mentioned, is the best weapon. And the secrecy really needs, both to beat down their power structure AND to make us safer AND to expose their soft underbelly, to take the hardest hits. Democracy really does die behind closed doors. Bush was allowed to say all kinds of things in the run up to the 2004 elections about the nature of our “detainees” and the info being obtained from them – things that the intel community knew for a fact were not true – all because of devotion to secrecy. It is not secrecy to keep the nation strong, it is secrecy to weaken perceived enemies, bc it is much harder to criticize if you have no access to facts.
They are like the old temple priests who knew the tricks behind the smoke and mirrors, but if you let everyone in on it, you wouldn’t have the same control over the populace.
In any event, IMO the absolute toughest issue to get around in order to peel off several different groups is abortion. A big chunk of support could be peeled off, but for that, IMO. ANd they will exploit the issue, without conscience, and without any real desire to see that young women and assaulted women and impoverished women etc. have viable life options and education that would make abortions less and less needed in our society.
But the issue for the Bushites on abortion is not reducing the need for abortions and helping empower women with options, but rather the ability to use it as a shock collar for their “troops” Good news, to me at least, is that the old guard of Limbaugh, O’Reilly, etc. are stagnant with youth and that such a low number of young people (even without a looming draft) have any faith in GWB. IMO = that shows the TDS/Colbert approach works very well for people who have not already become too entrenched.
RevDeb- “how about his shooting a guy in the face?”– yes, of course I thought of that episode, but in the long term I don’t think it’s had much impact, alas. I wish it had. Cheney is basically evil, and I don’t know how to make evil look silly, especially as Cheney operates with such stealth.
There were but two heroes in the Nixon administration, to come out of Watergate. Attorney General Elliot Richardson and his Deputy, William Ruckelshaus. At the other end, the anti-hero would be Robert Bork. And I would say that John Dean is one of the good guys now.
Enoch Root @
103
Digby, by way of Mailer, has recently endorsed “flag conservatives.”
Follow the money.
VG –
Re your #119:
Recently someone (I forget who…Hillary?) responded perfectly to a reporter who quoted Cheney’s opinion to provoke a response.
The answer was perfect and went something like, “Cheney?!? Who on earth listens to HIM? He has a 19% approval rating. No need to respond to HIM.”
This was just the right note of ridicule, IMO.
The cognitive dissonance Mrs.K8 mentioned has some potency to it.
One of the things I found really stunning from reading the book is Dean talking about Cheney being the perfect example of the Peter Principle—having risen to the level of his incompetence.
The image that was touted of Cheney is anything but. However when you think about it, as the book points out, he has (as W has) screwed up or not been up to any task he has had. This is a meme that needs to get out there. I think the country has a very false sense of confidence in him and his foibles need exploiting.
It’d be worthwhile, if Dems were so inclined, to split Bush and some of fundamentalists. Fundamentalists take Scripture literally, and I can assure you, Bushco doesn’t know Scripture any better than I know Persian. Counter Bushco actions and words with the Good Book. You certainly aren’t going to peel off Falwell, Robertson and Dobson, but you will peel off some of their congregation.
When I was young, I hired myself out to local farmers in the summer to work their tobacco fields. One year, my farmer was also a member of our fundamentalist church. One Sunday, the preacher expounded on the “body is a Temple” theme – standard fare regarding no drinking, no overeating, no extra-marital sex, and no tobacco. For some reason, he really hammered the tobacco issue, instead of the sex-and-drinking we were accustomed to.
The following day, the farmer’s wife, Mizz Josephine, was my looper. I asked her about the preacher getting all het up about tobacco, in view of the fact we were in the middle of tobacco country and there were many tobacco farmers in our church.
She said, “the preacher knows where our money comes from, and he cashes every check we put in the offering plate!”
The point being, there are some folks in the pews that knows the preacher will bullshit them sometimes, and rely on their own judgment. Dems can reach some of those folks.
Plus, not all who voted for Bush are fundies. Many are comfortable members of the upper middle class, making a joint $75-150,000 a year who don’t want their boat rocked.
I’m guessing they are not so sanguine about their and their kid’s prospects at this point, and Dems need to give them a reason to flip.
Last point, a great political story. “It was alleged that during one of Stevenson’s presidential campaigns, a supporter told him that he was sure to “get the vote of every thinking man” in America, to which Stevenson is said to have replied, “Thank you, but I need a majority to win.”
RevDeb @ 105
That is a very important point IMO. You can see how they do it subtly as well. The whistleblower on Abu Ghraib dangerously outed by Rumsfeld doing his “oh my heavens” psycho imitation; Rowley intially praised then knifed, etc. Inspector Gen investigations going from shutting down to just flat admitting – if the Pres or AG authorized things, then no matter how illegal they may be, we can’t look at them.
Even bullies sometimes have shame though. The lack of conscience that Dean points out is something that sets this crew apart IMO. Bybee holding his head up on the 9th CIr after the torture memo? Goldsmith, Yoo, etc. holding their heads up in academia. The corporate crew from their cushy landing points rushing in to shore up Haynes as a great guy for a 4th Cir nomination, etc. etc. etc.
No sense of any shame whatsoever. No conscience.
Hmmm.
I think I’ll name my “cognitive dissonance overload” technique:
the Captain Queeg Principle –
Our job is to figure out what each one’s symbolic container of strawberries is.
Peter Thomas @
84
Yeah maybe you want to fill us in on those?
Because the “I qualify” plus lobbed grenade = conceern troll, usually. Please prove me wrong.
Mrs. K8- ah, thanks. Nice response you quoted. But it seems to me that Cheney’s 19% approval rating doesn’t reflect the actual power that he has- more like the inverse- or is that the point. I guess I don’t understand where Cheney’s 19% approval rating comes from- as in, he may have a very low rating, but it seems that people don’t understand how truly evil he is. Or, am I simply out of touch? Could be!
Cliff Steward- follow the money is apropos for Cheney- but this wouldn’t make him look silly, it would make him look evil. Not that that’s a bad thing, of course.
Two concepts that “old fashioned conservatives” held dear I have to say I have sympathy for: They were against foreign adventures and deficits. And I’m not talking about the likes Reagan. He was not a ‘real’ conservative. Except perhaps on social issues.
tommy yum @ 120
Digby, by way of Mailer, has recently endorsed “flag conservatives.”
Don’t you think that’s something they’d like to be called? I mean, these are the same people who literally think that little piece of cloth is what our country is all about, what our troops are getting blown to pieces for. I’d prefer a label that emphasized the traits that make them so dangerous and unAmerican, like “Taliban conservatives.” (I really like Molly Ivin’s old term “Shiite Republican”, but that insults some people who probably don’t deserve it.)
I call my evangelical friends members of the “Church of Divine Violence” it is protestantism without the New Testament. Dean seems to not fully perceive how close the Church and right wing politics is actually intertwined, particularly in the South.
When religious values are limited to the old testament i.e the authoritarian bit, there is very little sunlight between the current republican party and the church. They both appear to be comfortable in a Clausewitz type state of permanent warfare, no hope of equipoise here, now or in the future, there may be ceasefires but no peace is possible.
If there is an Achilles heal it will be when some type of sexual or other moral shortcoming is exposed. But until that time the evangelicals are OK with their social agenda being subservient to the desire of the Republicans to maintain power. They will moan about being taken for granted but they will stay loyal AS LONG AS they can define themselves as being on the side of good against evil. In that sense the more extreme the position, such as attacking Iran, i.e. the more counter intuitive and apparently stupid, then the better the evidence of their virtue.
I have just got the book and haven’t finished it but it seems Dean mistakes the evangelical Church for a special interest group who’s interests are not being served. I don’t think so, they are quite comfortable maintaining their perceived moral superiority, provided the government is militant in fighting “evil” and takes “big” actions based upon faith.
Bully=coward. What to do with a bully? Go for their fear.
In real terms I’d opine that Cheney is the power behind the throne in foreign policy, and to perhaps a lesser extent on domestic issues. Like wire tapping, prisoner torture and so forth.
Valley Girl @ 119
Stewart does a good job. His “Penquin” Batman quacks whenever he quotes Cheney ;) The other thing is — Cheney is the guy on the record with the most blatant misstatements (well, there’s Rice too). His “last throes” is right there for the taking. He has been the most publically, most wrong, with least parsing.
Glenn Greenwald @
27
That is a satisfying notion — like the ending to a science fiction movie where the seemingly invincible aliens/monsters are defeated, not by conventional force, but by their own inherent, internal weaknesses.
Cujo359 @
99
Maybe I am just a pessimist, but with Fox News and rightwing adio operating as a version of a state controlled media and an Oval Office occupant who believes he has the authority to lock up Americans indefinitely, without trial, without much evidence, condones torture, engages in acutal propaganda by planting news reporters (Gannon) or news stories (Miller et al), invades countries on lies, what part aren’t you sure about?
Dean’s core arguments (authoritarianism, surrender to higher authority) fit with particular resonance to that subset of CWC, Religious Right. The contradictions between the values that Jesus is claimed to have espoused and the policies of torture, killing of civilians, etc. supported by the Christians Without Conscience could fill another book.
It is unbelievable what can be justified when the decision is made not to think about the logical and moral consequences of one’s actions, when the starting premises are “They are Evil and must be destroyed” and “Father knows best.”
It seems to e the essential element here is not public exposure of the authoritarian types, but the courts. They can’t scream their way through the law.
Part two is legislative oversight. The coming election is not only about the right guy for the job. It is literally about protecting out union!
You know who’s good at employing the Captain Queeg Principle?
Randi Rhodes.
I’ve seen her do it a few times, but perhaps most memorable was when she debated some wingnut theocratic woman (whose name escapes me) on C-Span, I think it was.
She actually got the woman to stick her fingers in her own ears, screaming (no kidding!) “I can’t hear you! La la la! I can’t hear you!“
It was amazing.
The woman saw nothing wrong with her own behavior, but every single person NOT suffering from this authoritarian disorder could see, bright and clear, just who and what she was.
True enough, Doc. It’s a moniker that requires some explanation, and should be discarded.
One approach might be to attack and re-frame the “neoconservative” term, equating it with disastrous foreign and fiscal policies. It’s a vulnerable “brand” right now, anyway, and should be judged a temporary aberration.
Peter Thomas @ 3:14pm (#84)
All criticisms of the Bush presidency, by their very nature, are illegitimate.
Be confident in citing Dean’s Conservatives Without Conscience, though. It is 100% correct, with impecable logic and comedic timing.
[Just wanted to bring true balance to this discussion. I haven’t actually read the book, but for the purposes of this comment, that hasn’t proved an impediment.]
Dick: The Man Who is President (Dick Cheney) by John Nichols. One of the best I’ve read this year on how power works.
mlaw #230:
A couple of years ago I began to research the history of religious revivals in America, based on the premises that (a) we’re experiencing one now and (b) participating is a (dysfunctional) means of handling the fear of uncertainty and complexity. I was particularly interested in looking at what caused earlier revivals to end and their aftermath.
I got sidetracked and never came close to any answers, but I still wonder if there aren’t some learnings therein about how we can help Swopa with those peel-away voters.
People are not unaware or not misunderstanding what’s going on here.
It’s been obvious since post-9/11.
Can we stop playing games?
I haven’t actually read the book, but for the purposes of this comment, that hasn’t proved an impediment.]
Cujo –
LOL!!! Actually, you just made Dean’s point for him!
Only about halfway through the book, but a couple of things, I appreciate about Dean’s book.
1. He’s trying to persuade conservatives to drop Bush and the neocons.
2. From page 23, “Activist judges are best described as those whose rulings run contrary to the beliefs of a particular conservative faction.”
tommy yum @ 140
Since the Republican Party has been happy to wrap up authoritarianism, racism, nationalism, aberrant militarism, patriarchal desires and the Bush cult of personality all into one, how about “The Abusive Daddy Party?”
Be careful about citing to Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience,” though. That book contains serious logical errors that undermine its message.
Such as…
al-Scooter @ 144
In many cases, their end was precipitated by the failure of the world to end on the date predicted.
melior @ 137
Speaking of intellectual laziness and authoritarianism, I’ve always thought that this kind of Christian must have stopped reading about halfway through the book. Anyway, Joshua seems like a much more appropriate role model for them than Jesus.
A dittobot goes into a bar and spies Karl Rove at one of the stools. The bartender says “What’ll it be?” And the dittobot points to Rove and say’s I’ll have whatever he’s having. ;)
al-Scooter –
You have a very good idea there, I think. (#144)
Not sure my own google skills are up to it, but it’s a good idea to study how ANY authoritarian movements were brought down historically.
The religious angle is a good, manageable (IMO) bite of that larger apple.
mlaw230- I’m not a southerner, but lived in the South for many years, and what you say about the evangelical view rings true. Also, I still sense resentment here about having lost the Civil War- even among Dems, who somehow feel that their honor was impeached. That last probably won’t make sense to anyone who hasn’t lived in the South. Does it make sense to you?
mary, I see your….hmmm….not exactly a “counterpoint” to my Class pets comment…but a slice from the same pie? I’m sorta weighing and sifting your idea.
I suppose, and for me some of the discussion here on this book gets a bit too intellectual for me (my shortcoming, not the group), that whenever I’m trying to grab onto something to understand, I’ll try to compare the concept to that which I do understand.
Mary, you may very well be on to it…as far I need for understanding. Thanks.
Ghostman
fwiw, “Peter Thomas” at inflammatory comment #84 uses LiberalsWhoLie as his Email name … think he might be a disrupter-troll, eh?
Doc @ 132
Don’t you think that’s something they’d like to be called? I mean, these are the same people who literally think that little piece of cloth is what our country is all about, what our troops are getting blown to pieces for. I’d prefer a label that emphasized the traits that make them so dangerous and unAmerican, like “Taliban conservatives.” (I really like Molly Ivin’s old term “Shiite Republican”, but that insults some people who probably don’t deserve it.)
How about totalitarian conservatives?
Is Glenn still here? Did I miss him leaving?
I meant to thank him from the bottom of my heart, with mere inadequate words, for ALL he does to fight for our beloved Constitution.
So if you’re here, Glenn…Thank you — you’re in my prayers for strength in the long-term battle for the soul of our country.
Tommy Yum- maybe you can weigh in on the last part of my comment #153, that is if I am correct in assuming that you are a Southerner.
How about totalitarian conservatives?
That’s good, but I still like right-wing extremists.
Valley Girl @ 155
Yes. And Abraham Lincoln would be a progressive and perhaps a Democrat (not a Dixiecrat) today.
*ilson46201 @ 156
(*Swopa faints from shock*)
Mrs. K8 @ 4:06pm (#157)
Same here. I have a habit of jumping into the middle of a thread, especially when I haven’t, you know (looks at feet) actually done the reading ;)
So, thanks, Glenn, you have piqued my interest in the book.
How about totalitarian conservatives?
How about moronic brownshirt fucks?
Mrs. K8 #159:
Thanks. I hope things are going better for you. It’s great to see you here!
When I started googling this subject matter, I got a lot of specifics about revivals in the sense of events rather than the broad movements as a whole. IIRC, the U.S. has one every 80 years or so. Gotta get this subject back on my to-do list to follow up.
Dave . . That’ll be a great Thanksgiving day conversation starter . . .G
That’s what we are for.
thanks Paul Rosenberg @ 105– I am with all y’all.
Sonoma Rus @ 167
If the brown-and-serve rolls have firing pins on ‘em, it’s time to leave the dining room.
Swopa- BTW, I did read your response earlier. I actually think that both views are valid- just depends on the context or the point someone is in their bullyhood. I figure that many adult authoritarians were raised in a family environment where they were made to submit to an authoritarian family regime (submissive) and then, when they become the head of the family, they respond by becoming authoritarian themselves, to counter their previous lack of power.
I heard an interesting talk by a Canadian pollster who compared Canadians and Americans.
Among other things, one of the big differences between us was the level of agreement with the idea that man is the ruler of his household.
The majority of Americans polled agreed, but less than 20% of Canadians did.
Perhaps you’re just preprogrammed on the whole to respond to a Big Daddy.
Also you place far more value on belonging to a religion than we do, according to this pollster. Again, a societal predisposition to authoritarianism.
I’ve really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. I usually give them a pass because I haven’t had a chance to read the books. I’ll be back!
I have a habit of jumping into the middle of a thread, especially when I haven’t, you know (looks at feet) actually done the reading ;)
I hope you understood that when I said (# 146) that you made Dean’s point for him I wasn’t in any way snarky about YOU, but about the person you were responding to.
[Dean’s point is that it doesn’t matter WHAT content the authoritarian is spouting that is subsequently proven wrong with FACTS, they just blither on unruffled.
BTW, I have yet to get my hands on the book, too, but the basic concepts can be discussed apart from the book, since, sadly, we probably ALL know these authoritatian types personally, in one context or another. Personal experience dealing with them will probably be fairly consistent, since the phenomenon of imperviousness to facts is consistent, even apart from what sounds like a GREAT analysis by Dean. I wish I had time to read it…]
Mrs. K8 @ 140
Priceless! Anyone have a link?
1,255 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Greenwald and FDL sisters and brothers:
This may come as a surprise ta those of you who are familiar with the Norske, but I get a little impatient sometimes and I am about ready ta blow a gasket here now.
One of the most disconcerting and exasperating things about liberals and many progressives is the penchant for over analyzing and hyper caution in making judgements that influence how you see the world. Come on folks, what we have here is a full blown “friendly fascist” takeover of all of our democratic institutions…let’s not tug on our forelocks, scratch our armpits and try and define all the factions of the angels that are dancin’ on our pinheads!!
The Democratic Party must present itself as the anti-Bush, anti-fascist popular front…we don’t hafta debate the definitions, when Americans step in the shit they don’t worry about whether it’s bullshit or horseshit. Enough already…thank Mr. Dean for his politically acceptable dissection of the Bush administration and his attempt to inoculate corporatists and old line Republicans from the fascist infection that has systematized in the Republican Party and then MOVE ON TO THE BATTLELINES.
What we are up against and, by extension, what is threatening humanity right now is a full-blown fascist assault that threatens to take us back to the 17th century socially, politically, economically and intellectually. We have no time to quibble about terminology …the only thing that matters is a common understanding of the enemy. Bush fascism is the enemy and a united democratic response AGAINST it is the strategy and the tactic necessary.
Enough already, if you haven’t already joined up with your county or district Democratic Party organization, then DO IT NOW! If you haven’t already donated to the candidates or organizations of your choice to the limits of bankruptcy, then DO IT NOW!!
KEEP THE FAITH SISTERS AND BROTHERS AND TAKE NO FUCKIN’ PRISONERS!!!
al-Scooter @ 169
… amusing !
How about moronic brownshirt fucks?
Hey, dave!
You must be a fellow Eschaton alumnus…greetings! Good to see Eschatonians over here.
John Dean’s C w/o C should be read for its psychological observations on why so many can allow themselves to be led into such ugly places and to feel so righteous once they arrive.
Paul Rosenberg –
I have to go out to do physical therapy in the pool right now before I lose the daylight, but if no one can point you in the right direction (Crooks and Liars archives?), I can try googling it later this evening. Sorry I can’t help sooner.
*ilson46201 @ 173
Well, just don’t reach for the explosive rolls, just wait til the trytpophan from the turkey kicks in, serve them some dandy pie, put ‘em to bed on the sofa watching football and do a mind meld on ‘em.
Norske- your words are always welcome. And I get your point. Please don’t blow a gasket. We need you. It’s just that a book thread might tend to be a little analytical? And, your point is well taken.
Paul Rosenberg @ 173
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/10/08/4992/
i’m just jumping in here- w/out catching up- thanks Glen for ALL you do!
isn’t the big gov-like doling out of $$$$ just a back door way of robbing the treasury- like a gang of old-time horse-riding, bandana’d thieves?
OCPatriot @ 14
Valley Girl @
155
Valley Girl,
I am a TarHeel, with family going back to colonial times.
My grandma drawled Yankee out to three syllables – ya-yun-ke – like it was the most despicable epithet there was. Small boys of a certain age could get by with da-yum ya-yun-ke when cussin’ was otherwise forbidden.
Why? Because she had learned at her grandmother’s (who lived thru the Civil War) knee about the Occupation by the hated ya-yun-kes.
Nobody likes having a different view imposed on them, no matter how repugnant their current view. The Iraqi’s despise us for the same reason, and who couldn’t see that coming?
The virulence recedes with time. Grandma’s view was the prevalent one at the time; much less so now.As with most things cultural, the South is a lagging indicator. My personal estimate is about 15 years behind the rest of the country.
I married a Catholic Yankee (the Yankee bothered some more than the Catholic – another no-no!)over 20 years ago. Today, nobody would bat an eye.
I just got here so I am late for this interesting discussion.
molly bloom @ 88
The problem with the view that we are not yet on the road to fascism (although we are definitely under an authoritarian regime) is that by the time we can clearly label the movement fascist, it is already established, and therefore a bit too late to do much about it (without recourse to drastic measures).
This is what happened in Germany, remember?
In fact, fascists know this, so the march to fascism is carried out undercover of darkness so to speak. Lying, deception, disinformaion, seizing all the reins of power, are all used to convince the people that the government is benign.
Since we are already seeing that, how can we not say that we are not yet on the road to fascism?
Glenn Greenwald has become the single most important political writer in America. If there’s someone who conveys truth, as John Dean does, Glenn will find and highlight that person. Those who seek to destroy this country similarly fall under Glenn’s methodical, relentless microscope.
One quibble is that I do not think the CWC think of immigrants as the enemy. They will join hands with whatever group of immigrants will aid them in targeting those groups on whom they have pinned the “enemy” tag.
Nor are all those opposed to illegal immigration conservatives without conscience. Many are simply people who believe that the nation’s just laws should apply to everyone.
I agree with angie who posted above. Of course there are Democrats who are authoritarians. The Democrats in office have enabled the conservatives without conscience, and inside every socialist beats the heart of an authoritarian. There are noble commenters on this and other blogs who are Democrats who are true anti-authoritarians.
But there’s little difference between the two parties themselves. People who hate authoritarianism do not enable it. They fight against it. We have seen almost none of that from the Democrats in office who are frighteningly comfortable with an authoritarian system of government.
Here’s the problem in this country now, given that people lost to reason will stay lost no matter what anyone else does to try to bring them back into the fold:
So we agree not to talk about politics or religion, just to remain friends.
What about exposing their hypocritical authoritarian leaders?
Why expose their hypocritical authoritarian leaders? Expose them, the followers of those leaders. Why do you want to remain friends with such people? To accomodate evil? To facilitate the destruction of this country?
To make your life easier so you can confine your protest to posting on blogs when in your actual life you have joined hands with the enemy?
It takes guts to stand up for that which is right. It takes courage and there is a high personal cost associated with vehemently rejecting every person who is an enabler of fascism. By remaining their friend you are sanctioning their views (just because you refrain from talking about fascism doesn’t mean it disappears) and indirectly enabling those same hypocritical authoritarian leaders you want to expose.
The fact that exceedingly few people are willing to bear that cost in their personal lives is one of the biggest obstacles the rest of us face.
And this is true of the Democrats who protect the guilty and thereby sacrifice the good.
They have failed this country miserably or we wouldn’t be where we are.
Mrs. K8 @ 4:19pm (#170)
I’d assumed that, yes. I wrote that because it could be considered polite to at first, at least, mention in passing the article someone went to lots of trouble to write. Sort of like, speaking of Thanksgiving, when you don’t even mention any of the food you liked to the cook(s) or thank them for cooking it. Sadly, I’m often not that polite about the articles (I usually do better at Thanksgiving).
I hope I can get around to reading it, too, but I’m several books behind already.
Personally, I think reading Jared Diamond’s The Third Chimpanzee is good preparation for discussing politics. It’s astonishing how much of this sort of behavior you can observe in social animals. John Bolton, for instance, seems like one of those middle-of-the-heirarchy wolves who buddy up to the leader and beat up on the lower wolves just to prove he’s not the omega.
We are on the fast track to fascism! This hasn’t happened in a vacuum or over night. It’s been going on since at least Reagan and Nixon.
orangejumpsuit,
Good point. Hitler wasn’t widely known to be a evil little bastard from the jump – the Germans would not have stood for that.
He had to dismantle the government that could hold him accountable,and bullshit the public into acquiescence, and then he began his reign of terror.
Any similarities to current events are not accidental.
mlaw, read Deans latest article concerning Michelle Goldbergs book about the “Christian” Dominionists. Dean is well aware the dangers these unAmerican cultists pose to Democracy.
IMO, Deans book is the most important political book in decades. So what if its not perfect or covers every base. It took huge guts to research and write it and as informed and aware as I like to think I am, it still taught me alot.
Glenn and Jane, thanks for giving these unAmerican nasty-ass RWers hell. Please, keep up the good work.
diogenes- ah- think you so much for taking me up on my question. You say “Nobody likes having a different view imposed on them”, and that is part of what I was searching for by saying that Southerners felt that their honor had been impeached. I couldn’t have explained exactly what I meant by that if pressed further, but your comments help me, at least, understand what I was trying to convey!
1,255 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Valley Girl:
Bless your pure heart and I appologize if I antagonized anyone…I just want to make the point that the best political tactic to use against any fascist and, by definition, minority political opposition is to unite people AGAINST the enemy. So, to do this we demonize with one word “fascist” and open a big tent for all those who are against the enemy. We don’t agonize over usin’ tactics that the enemy has used to get himself to power…we use his tactic and his actions against him.
As for Mr. Dean’s book…it is useful in that it speaks to those legitimate conservatives who are at a loss. We must make it clear that to kick the fascists out is patriotic and conservative, so in so far as the book helps this cause it is welcome but not worth debating or analyzing as a legitimate piece of political history or theory.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS IS JUST ANOTHER BATTLE, THE WAR IS A LONG WAY FROM OVER!!!
Glenn Greenwald @ 11
this phenomenon is called “cognitive dissonance”
it;s not possible for many of us to believe something is wrong which we’ve invested so much of our own credibility defending
a perfect example is the first time we learned about procreation
My intellect tells me my parents had sex, but for the life of me this is still hard to believe
my intellect tells me one thing, my emotions tell me that I was a divine conception
cognitive dissonance, and we’ve ALL experienced it in one form or another, though some of us are able to intellectualize past our emotional involvement, some are not
the people in power right now are NOT republicans, they only use the term so they can get republicans to vote for them
the government has expanded exponentially
the government is in our personal lives, up our butts, in our mail, up our wives skirts and in our children’s records
all but the smallest group of people are paying more in taxes
there is more regulation for the majority of people
there is less freedom
the military has been weakened exponentially
foreign opinion of America has been trashed
opinion of the presidency is a laughing stock
there is not one tenet of the republican party’s principles that have not been forsaken by this administration and the people that make believe they are republcans…they are NOT republicans, they ARE fascists.
in no small sense of the word
Originally Posted by Mussolini who invented the word
“Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
besides the base definition, which WITH NO DOUBT, this administration ARE fascists, there is the polarization of the masses, creating enemies and calling anyone that gives critisism the label “traitor”, or words to that affect
the president now claims congress doesn’t decide on war, he does, congress cannot rescind their declaration of war, only he can.
etc
mark my words;
there will be an event, and the president will suspend elections or if the democrats win and try to impeach, he will use an event to declare marshall law and suspend congress
we are in troublesome times, for instance, if we cannot eleiminate e voting, it won’t matter WHO we vote for, the republcans WILL win.
the internet is now being called “a terrorist weapon”, and net neutrality will be a quaint idea if just a few years
none of us will know anything but what the fascists in office want us to know
these elections are not only “our last best hope”, they are our ONLY hope…if we cannot wrest the unbriddled power of this administration this time around, America will be lost.
Bush and Company are authoritarian not simply because they amass power to themselves but also because they seek to disempower others. That they are hopelessly incompetent in the exercise of the power they have gained has nothing to do with authoritarianism per se but rather stems from the fact that they are ideologues. They believe that whatever they do is right by definition and therefore does not need reason or facts to justify it except insofar as these support their views. Failure is no impediment to them but rather an indication of a lack of sufficient will in the execution of their ideas and not a defect in the ideas themselves.
Norskeflamethrower, I couldn’t agree more. Until we label ovbious fascists like Coulter and Steyn fascists, they’ll keep ruining any chance of a civil discourse.
Enoch Root @ 66
First, I want to say I love Dean’s book – he is a great writer.
Second, he and Robinson are explaining a world to me that I basically have little comprehension of – I grew up in a very liberal family and my extended family is quite liberal. However, as I read CWC and Robinson, I’m developing a much better understanding of what we have experienced the past six years and why. It defies logic and I guess that’s one of the main points.
I love that there are serious discussions going on regarding how to use this knowledge to pull American back from the abyss. I hope our Dem politicians begin to understand what we’re up against and what needs to be done – what can we do to make sure they get the point?
(As a side note, as the importance of standing up to authoritarians is understood and sinks in – it makes the role of appeasers like Lieberman even more disgusting. There is no working “cooperatively” with them. It’s their way or the highway.)
Several people have requested examples of logical problems in Conservatives Without Conscience. Here are a few -
1. Complete reversal:
On page 59 of CWC, Bush is called a supreme example of a “Double High Authoritarian.”
On page 169, Dean explains that “Bush does not appear to be a Double High.”
Is he, or isn’t he? This “psychological” analysis is supposed to be scientific, right?
2. Hypocritical:
On page 24, Dean complains that Ann Coulter and other conservative pundits are unfair to liberals, explaining that Coulter’s book offers “page after page of scorn, criticism, belittlement, and bemoaning of ideas she believes liberal.”
…followed by 160 more pages of Dean’s scorn, criticism, belittlement, and bemoaning of ideas he disagrees with.
3. Lack of credibility.
Mr. Dean claims that there is not a single true liberal on the Supreme Court and that the Brookings Institution is “moderate”. Here’s a simpler explanation — maybe Dean has become a liberal. If so, his book is just one of a plethora lambasting those he disagrees with (as opposed to the expose from within that it purports to be).
Dean relies largely on the research of Bob Altemeyer, who has written a long list of books criticizing conservatives. He, too, has credibility problems.
4. Inconclusive data
Dean bolsters his conclusions by citing to Altemeyer’s Right Wing Authoritarian Survey. Dean goes through a few of the questions on the survey and comes to the indisputable conclusion that most Christian Conservatives would be deemed authoritarian by the survey.
But that doesn’t prove that Christian Conservatives are authoritarian. It just proves that the survey identifies CC’s. What’s missing is proof that it identifies authoritarians.
— There are many more problems with the book. I provide these as a start, because of earlier comments on this thread.
P. Thomas
In my impatience to post, I forgot to add among the symptoms of fascism is a wholesale and pervasive attack on freedom, and in our case, the deliberate invalidation of the Constitution. These are fascistic moves, not merely authoritarian.
Notwithstanding, I am grateful to Mr. Dean and Mr. Greenwald for speaking up about our current predicament. We need people like them.
Cornyne calls Dean a felon, but Rush hearts Ollie North…. we all choose our heroes for different reasons
as far as comparing this administration to fascism, first by the original definintion, there is nothing else to call it
second, I would like everyone to compare “the patriot act to the enabling act
http://www.furnitureforthepeople.com/actpat.htm
hard to find too many differances…the documents are frightening in similariry
*ilson46201 @ 156
*ilson, the Reply field pretty clearly says:
I think you are dangerously close to the line here. PT may, indeed, be a troll, but there are better ways of making this clear than ‘half-publishing’ what the site promises not to.
Whether or not he can be labelled ‘troll’ seems less important than the mere fact that he didn’t respond with evidence to clarify and support his assertion.
I suppose you could always change the Reply field to:
Freaked-Out Canadian,
I appreciate the comment in my defense. I’m not a trouble, but if angry people want to e-mail me, that’s fine -
liberalswithoutlogic@hotmail.com
The e-mail address is the title of a book, fyi.
Valley Girl @ 159
I’m not sure how to answer that, VG. Some of my own people were involved in the “Lost Cause.” I’ve read some family histories where they tried to rationalize slavery. Yuck.
My own view is that the South was ruined, not by the loss of the war, but by the cruel treatment meted out during Reconstruction. The worst possible thing that could have happened to southerners was Lincoln’s assassination. Alas.
Where I grew up, Yancey County, had very high literacy rates until a few decades after the war, when our lot became xenophobia, poverty and ignorance.
So, my two cents vis a vis southerners and the Civil War is this: an honorable defeat, a dishonorable peace.
I deliberately did not publish his full alleged Email address — that might be unfair even to trolls. It is significant however that he would wish to use such a provocative “name” anywhere.
Valley Girl,
Por nada!
The resentment manifests itself in ways small and large. I can remember one southern congressman being asked why he pushed so hard for military bases to be located in the South. His reply – “so if we have to fight you bastards again, we won’t be outgunned!” Now he was joking, but he meant the larger point – we won’t take no shit again from uppity Yankees (you can’t be a good Southerner if you can’t do double negatives with elan!)!
Being a southerner means being freighted with a certain amount of baggage. With some age and experience, you learn what to turn loose and what to cherish.
To this day, I intend to live and die a TarHeel, and be buried by my father (there’s a piece of the baggage for ya!)
1,255 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Remember not to feed the fascist trolls…even those masquerading’ as rational or “concerned” about our bein’ misled. We don’t need ta waste precious time in answerin’ these douchebags when they take a few things outta context and try and waste more of our precious air.
KEEP THE FAITH AND KCIK THE TROLLS INTA LAST WEEK!!!
I would love to suggest an author of stature do an expose / biography on Woodward and his involvement in the Wilson affair
I would love to get an investigative take on where bob went down the wrong path, if his deception was deliberate
I would love to get an investigative take on whether or not exposing Valery wasn’t so mcuh about her husband, but really had to do with eliminating the intelligence that would prevent them from completing the PNAC game plan to go from Iraq to Iran
obviously, if Val’s husband would expose the hoax perpetrated on the military that brought us into Iraq, they would surely have concern about Val exposing the credibility of their case in Iran
I think this is the kind of of book we need BEFORE the president goes forward with the pnac’s plan for war in Iran
problem would be, the book would have to get published before we went to war in Iran, after we initiated the aggression a book would serve no good.
greenwald has an excellent post up pointing out that the president actually thinks congress is not involved in going to war in Iran, and that congress can’t rescind his authority to war in Iraq.
we need this information to be publicized before the damage is done, after the damage is done isn’t much help
I am in the middle of reading this book. The only objection I have with Mr. Dean’s analysis is his specious assertion that conservatives in general and Republicans in particular have ever been right on the issues or that they ever, ever, EVER were worth a tinker’s damn. They suck, have always sucked, and will forever suck. I’m just sayin’…………………….
Lou Costello @ 180,
Thanks for the link! The still shot itself is just priceless!
Norske- you didn’t offend me! Partly I said what I did to make others (newbies) who might have been taken aback (though I didn’t see any comments to that effect) that you aren’t some whacko dropping by, but a regular. Had a lot of whackos, recently. During the 60’s and 70’s I always argued for the most extreme leftist (?) interpretation of things, because even if I didn’t totally agree, I thought that there was power in that- in the sense that by having to confront a more extreme leftest view, people would be more willing to “compromise” at a center that was more to the left than they would have otherwise done. See, I’m not so pure of heart! (Actually though, I have recently read that MLK Jr. saw the benefit in Malcolm X’s views…)
Rushton @ 207
the only thing wrong with the republcans right now is corporate America pays for their campaigns
the reverse used to be true, and when it was democrats were corrupt just as republcans are today
we need to rescind person hood to corporations, they CANNOT be allowed to contribute to campaigns
fwiw, the Email address is somewhat arbitrary I believe — I bet you could use Pierre@Trudeau.ca and it’d be accepted…
NorskeFlamethrower,
So, anyone who questions your arguments is a fascist? I’m not a conservative, let alone a fascist.
But I do question Dean’s book. If his book can stand up to criticism, that should be no problem for you, right?
P. Thomas
me2me — corporations as such can not contribute to Federal candidate campaigns…
Genetics are involved… swear to god… my family lines go back pre Revolution and a grandfather used the hanging tree behind the courthouse until he died (ever read Jefferson’s recommendations on property rights of citizens who refused to join the Continental Army?). Most of my family contemporariess are librul, but one of us will die wishing that tree had not died a natural death. One of us is a throwback. It’s a genetic thing, and one this nation must recognize. They feed off one another.
I like to think I have a “big-tent” outlook. But I draw the line at fascism, totalitarianism and Nazism. And supremacy of any kind.
With regard to conservatism, I love this essay, “What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong With It?”
http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/…..atism.html
It reads more like the outline of a book than a declarative essay, but it is well written.
I wanted to see Dean when he came here to Seattle, but I couldn’t get away that night. To prepare for it, I was going to put together a list of ten questions, so I was ready with something cogent. After reading his book, I couldn’t come up with ten questions which did not overlap in major ways. The one question I did have was about how conservatives would probably resonate with Goldwater’s dictum of “extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice”, but would block out the calls for social justice that are also part of that address from the GOP 1964 nominating convention in San Francisco.
Was it Nixon’s Southern strategy that did it? People sometimes forget that Wallace carried several states in 1968, and that absent Wallace, Nixon would have won in a landslide of historic proportions.
In 1968, it seemed like the law and order mob, and the authoritarianism they brought with them, really got up a head of steam. How much did the decision of Nixon to turn his motorcade toward the protesters in Los Angeles, causing a near riot that was captured on live news, have to to do with painting people who opposed Nixon as anarchists?
“Also, I still sense resentment here about having lost the Civil War- even among Dems, who somehow feel that their honor was impeached. That last probably won’t make sense to anyone who hasn’t lived in the South. Does it make sense to you?”
Yes, it does, but not resentment as much as it is defiance. The South has a culture that is quite comfortable with being out of sync with the mainstream, and its very militantly anti intellectual. I think this is a result of the “late unpleasantness” as the old timers still call it. As the South’s economic power has risen it has also still been held in contempt by the culture, just take a look at TV or the movies, southerners are always depicted as stupid or backward or both. In short, they don’t care what you think and they don’t expect to be understood or appreciated.
Religion is part of the wallpaper and part of the mix. I have lived in the South for close to 30 years but I am a NEer by birth. Before I moved here I thought that the US had never lost a war until Vietnam, not so, the South lost and they remember. These are two very powerful influences, reliance on the Church and a first hand knowledge of the fruits of military defeat.
The Church is about the only institution that they didn’t lose after the war and going against that Church would be an act of treachery toward the culture that simply is so extreme its just not done. I believe Clinton was successful in the South because for all of his sins he was respectful of the Church. Any sin can be forgiven except dissing the Church or advocating weakness (or disrespecting the fallen.)
I do not want to over state the case, this is surely changing and it is not a monolith. Oddly, Pat Robertson for all his foibles actually spoke out against the war (before it began) and against the faith based social programs (as a threat to the Church) the NE wasn’t listening and didn’t hear it because it was couched in gentlemanly tones. They only cover him when he says stupid things, but to expect him or some southern politician to speak out against the war, publicly, while there are troops in the field, is bizarrely delusional.
Remember, many, many people in the South believe the wrong side won the civil war, and as a result they are under assault by the coastal cultures of NY and LA. Evangelical Christianity is still a very “old testament” church so when the Republicans beat the “culture war” drum and the Church backs them they hear Gideon’s Trumpet. They understand they are losing the “culture war” (it makes it more attractive) but just as they haven’t really ever surrendered the “war of Northern Aggression” they are not going to surrender this war. That’s why it has been so easy for Rovian strategy to get people to come out to vote against gay marriage or stem cells.
To win in the South, one has to take a moral stand on something, anything. Its no mistake that Tim Kaine who opposes capital punishment, won in a state that overwhelmingly favors it.In my view he won BECAUSE of that stance rather than despite it.
*ilson46201 @ 213
But between the “as” and the “such” they make such a powerful contribution to (thinking now of the original Mayor Daley of Chicago) disform of government.
new spool upstairs.
Peter Thomas @ 4:42 pm (#193) – Since I haven’t read the book, your first two remarks will have to be handled by someone else. These two, however, require no such preparation:
3. Lack of credibility.
Conforming to your prejudices doesn’t equate with credibility. You think that there are liberal SCOTUS judges and the Brookings Institution is liberal? That’s just peachy, but the view that they aren’t all that liberal is just as valid. Arguing otherwise is specious in the extreme.
4. Inconclusive data
Taking character traits that are considered authoritarian and then looking for them in a group of people is a thought process that’s full of rhetorical peril. Considering that you thought your previous point actually meant something, I’ll go with Dean’s judgement for the moment. He’s certainly been around authority quite a bit, and probably recognizes the folks who worship it pretty well.
There’s also no absolute proof of the sort you’re searching for, which also leads me to question your judgement. At best, a survey of those Christians and a control group might or might not show such tendencies, but that isn’t going to show how the social structure of that group works, which in itself could foster authoritarianism.
I invite everyone to turn to page 59. Bush is not called a supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian on that page. In fact the word Bush does not appear on the page at all. Pages 59-61 describe Double High Authoritarians, but no specific Double High Authoritarians are named.
Also examples of liberals on the court in the past include Earl Warren, Hugo Black, Douglas, Abe Fortas, Brennan and Thurgood Marshall, etc. Please name me one member of the court since then who falls in that category. Your best shots are Stephens and Ginsberg. Neither are liberals, allthough both qualify as left of center moderates.
Tommy Yum- thanks for the response. What with what you and Diogenes have said, I actually understand the South much more. But, it is a hard place to live for a non-Southerner. When I first took my job here a former housemate from Va said- Southerners will be friendly, but never your friend. That’s the kind of thing that as CAian I was used to hearing about CAians! But, alas, it has proved true for my experience living in the South. Perhaps it is so difficult because I really don’t fit in, in the sense of understanding and appreciating the complex history surrounding the “War Between the States” and reconstruction. Heck, I am still trying to get a grip on CA history!
Cujo359,
I appreciate your addressing my arguments, rather than calling me a fascist troll.
On the credibility issue — You’ll have to read Dean’s forward. He talks at length about the nasty things conservatives have done to him (which I don’t dispute). He really does seem to have an axe to grind. My point: It’s hard for him to be objective, and a rational reader should demand actual support for his claims.
On the inconclusive data issue — You acknowledge that “There’s also no absolute proof of the sort you’re searching for…” The problem is that Dean claims there IS such proof, and that it’s in his book. It isn’t, though.
mlaw230@ 217,
Very true.
In the urban North, there are many gathering places – the job, pubs, bowling leagues, etc. for a diversity of ethnic groups.
In the rural South, there are only two – the church and family gatherings (interestingly, the border folk of Ireland, Scotland and Northumbria that settled much of the rural South brought those two mores with them from the old country)of homogeneous groups. Given the isolation, change comes slow, to a people suspicious of change anyway.
melior @
139
And that book is ‘Kingdom Coming: The Rise Of Christian Nationalism‘
molly bloom,
Doh! It was page 183, not page 59. It does say that Bush is the supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian, though…
RevDev @ 100
A week or so ago, I had a bit of a revelation, although when I put it into writing, I know it will seem a bit mundane and unrevelatory:
So much of what I find difficult in both American history, and in the collective psyche, is the bully mentality.
Among conservatives, especially, any discussion of other countries, of their systems, of their languages, of their solutions, of their culture, and of their government, seems like nothing more than ill-informed, ignorant bullying (think Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, France…not to mention more egregious examples in the developing world).
A major French actress is invited on to an American talk-show and they trivialize her for ten minutes giggling at her ‘cute’ accent and telling her how ‘adorable’ she is.
Any progressive policies are roundly dismissed as ’socialism’ with no effort to examine their efficacy. The US signs NAFTA, but then ignores that boy’s own rulings when it doesn’t rule in their favour.
The American government decries the very idea that Lybia or Iraq might sponsor Presidential assassins and terrorists, but blithely supports assassination, coups and terrorists in Nicaragua, Chile, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, etc.
American TV journalists bluster and bully and interrupt so frequently that no one who challenges the collective wisdom has even a fighting chance of having themselves heard.
Rabid Christians have the entitled sense of the bully that their way is right, and everyone else better wise up and adhere to their coda…or get out.
Virtually every unpleasant element of American (and, I hate to say, Canadian society) is characterized by this bully mentality.
Conservative American doth bestride the narrow world like a colossus..but an oddly infantalized, adolencent, angry colossus – anti-science, anti-history, anti-art, anti-language, anti-human rights – proud of itself and its power, but disdainful of all about it. Leading an unexamined political life.
It is why conservative commentators are so easily angered by professors, newspapers, historians, and foreigners…they dare to think, and to challenge the bully’s authority. And then generally get punished by a good thumping…by Fox, or the White House, or the Military, or the FBI, or McCarthy, or lynch-mobs, or strike-busters, or the KKK.
I apologize if this idea has already been covered, but I see the difference between 9/11 and Oaklahoma more simply: Oaklahoma was perpetrated by a (several?) white guy(s) from the U.S., whereas 9/11 was done by brown people from half a world away.
The thought process is, if the government went after the Oaklahoma City Bombers, then the government might come after me. But if the government went after the 9/11 perpetrators, then I’m safe, because I’m not brown-skinned.
Simple and flawed, but as a gut reaction, I feel it’s accurate.
mlaw230- wow! thank you for that extended response. I am still trying to digest it all. Ironically, one thing that has struck me while living here is that some native, long-generational Southerners have an incredible ability to use words- great orators, great writers, great command of telling phrases. Perhaps much more so that those from other parts of the US. The Welsh connection, perhaps?
Valley Girl,
It took quite a while for my wife to fit in everywhere.
Fortunately, many in the family took to her right off the bat, particularly Uncle Jesse, who took her fishing, clamming and oystering – the girl was a born high-tider!
And again, much less of an issue today than 20 years ago.
Valley Girl,
Story telling is how Southerners explain things. Whereas the rest of the world gets to the point, the southerner gets there eventually.
It can be maddening, or entertaining, or both!
Mary @ 136
I think that’s why the quail/lawyer shooting incident was (and could continue to be. if we don’t let it die) such a big deal.
Like “the kiss” for leiberman or “macaca” fo allen. the canned quail hunt that ended in near tragedy sums up everything we need to know about Cheney’s virilty.
Not only is he such a wuss that he is afraid to hunt live quail, he is such a dangerous panic shot when slaughtering canned quail, that he wound up shooting his friend. All in the name of trying to pretend he is the Marlboro Man.
It’s all fake virilty.
Think of Rush commneting on Bush’s “package” in the flight suit during the fake virilty “Mission ccomplished” event.
BTW Glenn,
I’m such a fan
Peter Thomas @ 5:08pm (#220)
Well, not a problem. Labeling is a rhetorical fallacy I try to avoid, at least at first …
That might have made a better point, although I really don’t think it applies very well. Most of the Nixon-era guys are out of politics now.
I take that with a rather large block of salt. Dean doesn’t strike me as the sort who’d claim absolute proof of anything that isn’t subject to rigorous proof. Most science can’t deal in absolute proof; it only tries to explain what is observed.
In addition, as molly bloom demonstrated in comment #218, your quoting of the book seems to lack some rigor, as well.
“On page 59 of CWC, Bush is called a supreme example of a “Double High Authoritarian.”
Peter, neither the word “Bush” nor “supreme example” appear on my page 59.
I appreciate your transparency.
I haven’t finished the book, so I cannot say whether Dean makes his argument. I do, however, appreciate him trying to make a “conservative” argument to conservatives about the inadequacies of the Bush administration.
I am Bob Altemeyer, the “professor” whose research John Dean used for much of his analysis in Conservatives Without Conscience. As you might expect, I have followed the reviews and postings concerning his book since it came out on July 11th. I just wanted to say that I have not seen a collection of comments as insightful and intelligent as those that have accumulated here. It seems that almost all of the writers have read John Dean’s book, and understood it, and are deeply concerned about the points he made. Reading what you’ve said made my day.
With regard to the burning question of, “What Can Be Done,” I would urge you to see the opportunity in the numbers. It is just my guess, but I think only about 20-25% of the American public is so determined to be authoritarian followers that–as many of you have noted from personal experience–you are wasting your time trying to help them see what they are doing to their country. (Research indicates there are ways to move them, at least a little, on some issues, but basically they are the all-time champs on various measures of dogmatism. But the vast majority of Americans are not high right-wing authoritarians, and appreciate a logical argument and sound evidence.
I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican, and basically a moderate on lots of issues. But it seems to me the Democratic Party has a splendid opportunity to win one for democracy in the 2008 elections. The right-wing authoritarians and social dominators are firmly in control of the Republican Party, and I believe they are quite out of step with most Americans–Republicans as well as Democrats and Independents. If the Democrats claim the moderate positions, they could do very well in fifteen months. But you may be sure that the authoritarians are going to fight like crazy to keep their gains. Those who wish to turn the authoritarian tide are going to have to work very hard to prevail.
As explained in 226 above, my citing to page 59 was a typo. [I think you can forgive my typographical error in a blog, where you might be more skeptical if it appeared in a published book]
Try page 183 — it does say that Bush is the supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian.
Bob @ 235 –
You’re at University of Manitoba, right? Do your studies on authoritarianism use survey data from Canadians or Americans?
I’m curious because conservative attitudes might differ slightly between the two countries.
Not only loved the book but have loved passing copies around to family and friends — great to watch those light bulbs go off over their heads.
An important issue Dean doesn’t deal with is etiology: how do humans get this fucked up. This thread touches on one part (bullies and the violence they endure/perpetuate). What else contributes to this extreme desire to suck up to power?
Ralphinlex
I concede there is an apparant contradiction, however, you overstate your case.
Bush is not called a supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian on either page 183 or page 169. On 169 Dean writes
Page 183
I’d say it is bad editing, that Dean bears some responsibility for, however, arguably at all Dean is saying at 183, is that Bush has more Double High Authoritarian tendencies than Nixon.
YOU said Bush was called a supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian. Clearly Dean did not say that. You over reached and undercut your argument and your credibility. You remaining arguements are opinion at best.
For example are conservatives above reproach or criticism? You seem to think so as your bill of particulars includes the complaint that Altermeyer and Dean (gasp) criticze conservatives. Could it be, that Altermeyer’s research merely implicates conservatives because they exhibit Authoritarian tendencies more?
I could go on, but I am not. I gather you have written a book with an audience in mind. (indeed compare your email address/ book title with your complaint about Altermeyer- too funny! Talk about self righteous!)
Peter Thomas @ 195
The only way to be sure is to have someone tested. That’s what the science is based on. However, once the basic landscape has been scientifically established, it becomes possible to make informed lay observations. And if one has had the sort of high-level political experience Dean has had, the lay psychology is matched with realworld expertise. Because Dean is writing about a whole movement, not just one person (Bush), this contradiction is hardly fatal to his overall argument.
Except that Ann Coulter lies outrageously. Dean’s book is based on decades of research into why people believe pathological liars like Coulter (among other things).
Think of it this way: If Bob Blowhard said, “You think 2 2=4, why should anyone listen to you, you idiot?” that is an ad hominem attack. But if you prove conclusively that Bob Blowhard is an idiot because he believes that 2 2=22, despite all evidence to the contrary, and conclude by saying, “And that’s why Bob Blowhard is an idiot,” that’s not an ad hominem attack. It’s a conclusion.
A decade ago, Michael Dolny explained Brookings’ centrism in an article for Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting:
While Goldberg only provided this one anecdotal example, he could have found more cases. In January 1996, according to a search of the Nexis database, major papers cited Brookings 185 times; only once was the think tank referred to as “liberal.” (The vast majority of mentions included no ideological description.) Heritage was cited 218 times, and in 76 of those references it was called “conservative,” “right” or “Republican.”
But is this inaccurate? Heritage is a leading voice of the conservative movement, and proudly identifies as such. Brookings, on the other hands, neither represents nor claims to represent liberals or progressives.
Backed by corporate funding, including donations from the military and oil industries, Brookings has long had a center-right orientation. As far back as the mid-’80s, Fortune magazine was approvingly noting (7/23/84) that “Brookings Tilts Right.”
“Centrist” was the descriptive label used by Bruce MacLaury, the former Nixon administration Treasury official who was Brookings’ president from 1977 to 1995. Current president Michael Armacost was undersecretary of state in the Reagan administration and President Bush’s ambassador to Japan. One of Brookings’ most prominent analysts, Stephen Hess, helped edit the Republican platform in 1976.
Thus, it’s those who insist that Brookings is “liberal” who are lacking objectivity, not Mr. Dean.
The same goes for the Supreme Court. It’s “liberals” are yesterday’s center-right. Brennan and Souter were appointed by Republicans, and Clinton consulted Orin Hatch personally about Breyer’s appointment, and Hatch approved, for gosh sake! I don’t recall Bush ringing up Ted Kennedy about Alito, do you?
When lambasting folks you disagree with, it does make a bit of a difference if you marshall both facts and argument. It’s the evidence, not the attitude, that matters. Your criticism demonstrates this in the breech.
(1) Altemeyer has written three books, not a “long list.” (2) They are not “criticizing conservatives.” Altemeyer makes clear that RWA is not an ideological trait. In the old Soviet Union, he reports, it was hardline Communists who were high RWAs. (3) Surprisingly, using a second ad hominem attack to “support” a first ad hominem attack doesn’t strengthen the original attack. Rather, it confirms that you have a poor grasp of logical arguments.
Altemeyer proved that decades ago. It’s not up to Dean to prove it all over again.
Long story short: You got nothin’.
I concede there is an apparant contradiction, however, you overstate your case.
Bush is not called a supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian on either page 183 or page 169. On 169 Dean writes
Page 183
I’d say it is bad editing, that Dean bears some responsibility for, however, arguably at all Dean is saying at 183, is that Bush has more Double High Authoritarian tendencies than Nixon.
YOU said Bush was called a supreme example of a Double High Authoritarian. Clearly Dean did not say that. You over reached and undercut your argument and your credibility. You remaining arguements are opinion at best.
For example are conservatives above reproach or criticism? You seem to think so as your bill of particulars includes the complaint that Altermeyer and Dean (gasp) criticze conservatives. Could it be, that Altermeyer’s research merely implicates conservatives because they exhibit Authoritarian tendencies more?
I could go on, but I am not. I gather you have written a book with a target audience in mind so I can’t and no-one else should either, take you too seriously. (indeed compare your email address/ book title with your complaint about Altermeyer- too funny! Talk about self righteous!)
Bob Altemeyer- Thanks so much for your comments! I thought that many of the comments were so insightful and intelligent that I was stumped as to how to respond. FDL does attract a very high level of commentary (plus a lot of off-topic silliness, as appropriate). I don’t think that Jane or Christy are reading right now, but I’m sure that they would be honored! You are coming in at the end of a discussion, meaning that I think that there is now another FDL post up, and discussion here often moves forward to the next thread. However, the Book Salon is one of those events where people continue to comment for quite some time, even after other new posts. If however, you wish to point out that you have added to the discussion here, by making a comment in the next thread, I’m sure that it will be much appreciated.
Bob– thank you so much for your good work and your working relationship with John Dean and we, the people, whose job it is to preserve and improve our nation and democracy. When we do this, we can finally try to be honest brokers in the world against poverty, hunger, thirst, disease, illiteracy and war.
bravo, sir.
First, I appreciate all your hard work, *lson, and the difficulty of the task.
That’s for him/her to decide.
True enough, but again, that’s the poster’s business. By exposing even a partial email, I really believe you are working against the very intentions of the system. Surely, the purpose of the email field is to weed out trolls and encourage people’s accountablility by having them provide an email address. Good system.
But, by exposing someone’s partial email (and obviously not hard to intuit at that point), you are intimidating those who might include their genuine emails, especially non-trolls who dare to challenge the conventional wisdom here at FDL (see last week, for instance). And, worse, you encourage those trolls who happily contribute fictionalized and specious emails (I.M.A.Troll@underthebridge.com).
And, just in case you think this is an OT post, I’d add that any long term reader of my comments here and at C&L, Atrios, OGM, etc, will see the connection between my last post on this thread, and my ‘defense’ of Peter Thomas.
angie s@ 59 asked/said:
As a proud liberal and progressive, I think we have a real duty to resist the bullying and authoritarian impulse in ourselves. I think we only have something to offer if we distinguish our principles from theirs and, in the realm of the blogosphere, I think that means playing by cleaner and more principled rules.
I know this is a contentious point. I have been shouted down many times before with the argument that, for us to win, the gloves have to come off and we have to fight as dirty as they do.
I disagree.
So, I stand by my suggestion. Let’s not even dip a toe into the Michelle-Malkin-expose-their-personal-info cesspool. Keep the IP’s and the emails confidential. Delete posts if you must, but please be slow to label people ‘troll’, and don’t break the implicit contract.
I know it is a tough job, and a fine line to tread, but only constant vigilance makes it a ‘line’ at all.
Bribes @ 228
Don’t like being picky, but respectfully, it’s “OKLAHOMA!” Means “home of the red man”.
PT, that ruins that arguement. Since you haven’t “finished ” the book. Where di you get that bullshit from?
Prof. Altermeyer, thanks for your comments. Do you believe as I do, that these authoritarians need to be called out publicly? To show how they would be called “tories” in 1776 and are totally against Democracy? Thanks.
Hi everyone – Just wanted to let you know that my Internet service died at around Comment 26 (or whenever I turned mute) and came back only now. I just read through all the Comments and am glad that the discussion was so substantive – I wish I could have been part of it more, but my authoritarian DSL company is to blame.
heh, Glenn!
Thank you so much.
Bob Altemeyer @ 5:20 pm (#232) – Thanks for dropping by.
I must confess to being totally unfamiliar with your work, but as I mentioned before, some exposure to social animal behavior can be good preparation for politics. Do you think there’s an organic component to authoritarianism in individuals, or is it possible for most personality types to succumb to it? Sorry if that’s a question you’ve answered, but I may have mentioned my lack of familiarity …
Professor: I am struck by the Administrations rather strained reliance on lawyers and bogus legal theories. As I recall many authoritarians have had this strange devotion to legalisms even as they were corrupting the same system. Is there some aspect of the authoritarian mind that insists on the veneer of legality?
The reason I ask is part curiosity and part panic. It would seem that a change to the AUMF forbidding military action in Iran wihtout congressional approval would remove the argument that the President already has such authrority, yet many insist that would be a waste of time as the President will do what he wants anyway.
I think that it might just work. Any thoughts?
Paul @ 240 -
You stated that “It’s the evidence, not the attitude, that matters.” I agree. I suggested earlier that because of Dean’s attitude, we need to examine his evidence.
If you look at his arguments with an open mind (tempting though it may be to simply agree with him based on your own beliefs), you’ll find that they are not terribly convincing. Their conclusions might actually be correct, but Dean doesn’t prove them correct.
Dean’s error about Bush does not, by itself, undermine everything else he says in his book. But it’s a symptom of the imprecision that permeates the book.
Point of correction – I believe Altemeyer’s written at least five books, plus a number of scholarly papers. They’re not all listed in Conservatives Without Conscience.
Glad to see ya made it back, Glenn. As I said upthread, thanks for all you do.
Glenn- thanks for the update. Some were wondering where you’d gone. Into the Toobz abyss, it seems, alas. However, not to worry. FDL Book Salon is one of those features where comments keep right on a comin, even when there is a new thread. And, it looks like the discussion is still going on!
Glenn Greenwald @ 5:35pm (#244)
Thank goodness. I thought maybe Sen. Stevens had backed his truck over one of the tubes again …
Could a regular commenter please help me out here. A person named Peter Thomas posted a comment.
Then another poster wrote fwiw, “Peter Thomas” at inflammatory comment #84 uses LiberalsWhoLie as his Email name … think he might be a disrupter-troll, eh?
Was this a joke? The poster wouldn’t have access to the information Peter Thomas signed in with, would he?
Just checking because first I thought that someone had revealed information about Peter Thomas that the site host said would not be published, and I don’t want to leave thinking that if this was just a joke.
Thank you.
as a volunteer moderator, I have X-ray vision …
Lose those friends @ 5:43 pm (#252) – We ordinary folk don’t have access to that information. The commenter in question, however, is a moderator, and thus has special powers granted him. If you’re concerned about such things, you can use an address at mailinator.com, or hotmail, or google, etc.
Prof Altemeyer:
I had your research in mind last week, when the Globe, CTV, and Global kept making so much of the Liberal’s “lack of focus” and “disarray” – as though an open and contentious debate should not be part of a leadership race – while remaining uncritical of the clear authoritarian leash and muzzle that Harper has applied to his caucus, his party and, increasingly, the civil service.
I see troubling echoes of the American past. Just as we adopted California style “Proposition 13″ policies in the Harris era, just as they were finally being discredited south of the border, so we seem increasingly enamoured of our own Bush/Cheney style of government.
In the early days of the Bush administration, people mistook forced consensus for competency. Ironically, that forced consensus led to a closed, group-think bubble which exploded in incompetency (Iraq/Katrina/Debt).
I see scary echoes of the same pattern in the Great White North. How can any member of the press really think that such a huge slate of candidates, and such a diversity of opinion and debate, is really a sign of weakness. Whereas Harper’s threats, bullying, central control, and virtually silencing of his MP’s is a sign of strength?
Lose those friends @
255
No, commenters do not have access to email addresses. The FDL moderator made that comment.
*ilson is one of the best and most time-involved voluntary FDL moderators (all are doing this as a freebie). However, *ilson, perhaps your b’day day after day got to you. I have never before seen you compromise security at FDL, and I’m not sure that this was the outcome you intended. This is an 0.000000000000000001 % deviation from your best practices. And, to the rest, I’m sure *ilson has gotten the message.
au contraire, VG, I very deliberately decided it would be informative for the thread to be aware that a newbie that popped in with an inflammatory brief comment had even picked a deliberately provocative Email name. I did not give his full alleged Email address on purpose.
Yes, I did screw up! He uses LiberalsWithoutLogic , not LiberalsWhoLie . I guess I did inadvertantly… sorry!
Lose the Attitude, friend. Who are you to demand anything? You’ve been trying to pick a fight for a while now. Shoo.
OT, does anyone know what’s up with BOPnews? I haven’t been able to get them for almost two weeks. Must have me some IanStirlingHale.
In hindsight, I’ll agree that *ilson’s revealing part of a poster’s email address was inappropriate. But the volunteer moderators (like *ilson) do a lot to keep this community from being overrun by trolls so I guess I can forgive the occasional misstep.
Lose those friends
“Not to mention what it reveals about the integrity of the host of this site. It should stop this discussion in its tracts, if that is so.”
I assume you meant “in its tracks.”
“In its tracts” sounds strangely propagandist, or perhaps fundamentalist…
*ilson- ah, I get it.
Valley Girl
Now that you mention it, I get it too!
*ilson, you sly devil.
Bob Altemeyer, this is an official small world moment – I used to live downstairs in Shar’s house and know all the kiddies.
Janet
Mommybrain @ 263
I agree.
Mommybrain @ 264
Not sure what happened, but I miss it too hehe. Stirling has been posting at the Agonist though.
OK — I’m sorry — I guess FDL will just have to dock my paycheck ! No more fast women and slow horses next week! (pout,pout)
Losethosefriends – an amusing whine lacking depth
Kurt, thanks for the tip about Stirling. I miss him most of all.
*ilson46201 @ 272
Dock your pay? Well then I guess you owe FDL some dough. Actually, it’s only appropriate that you should be paying someone for allowing you to volunteer. Don’t you think?
*ilson
Can you figure out any way I can buy you a beer to thank you for your service to the community?
“In the absence of a set of core, shared beliefs, what, then, binds them and maintains their allegiance to this political movement?
The answer Dean provides is the shared hatred of common enemies.”
Straight out of Sartre, who wrote in “The Devil and the Good Lord”:
To love one another is to hate a common enemy.
neurophius @
275
a small contribution via ActBlue to that cute John Laesch running against Denny Hastert would be nice. Jane & Christie could always use a small donation to buy Purina Hampster Chow to keep the servers going …
1,255 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
*ilson46201:
Thank you for your service and don’tchu dare take any of the criticism seriously if ya didn’t identify the entire address (or even if ya did).
And FDLers…wake up and smell the coffee, don’t engage the trolls and if ya do respond to the little fuckers, remember that you are takin’ up precious space that honest folks could use ta communicate, educate and be educated.
The whole exercise of this thread was to present and advance Mr. Dean’s book and his understanding of things and that is accomplished. So, those who still wanna pick nits er debate the finer pointz about whether the angels dancin on yer heads have wings…well, go take a pill and a cold shower.
And remember, the bad guys are fascists, not conservatives, not neo-conservatives, not Christian conservatives…they are FASCISTS and with regard to that truth, Mr. Dean is dead wrong. Dean’s book and arguments may be helpful in bringin over a few real conservatives who are feelin’ guilty but that’s it…now let’s get on with gettin’ the fascists outta power.
The point of all this is to begin to use the term “fascist” whenever referrin’ ta the current political party in power. Wake up folks, continuin’ the discussion is a waste of precious resources better used against the enemy…
KEEP THE FAITH, YOU ARE IN A WAR HERE!!
Since the label for the field that collects the poster’s email address explicily says “will not be published”, I think it is inappropriate for a moderator to reveal even part of that information. (Sorry *ilson).
I’ll defer to Christy or Jane’s opinion though. In any case I don’t see this as being a high crime when in fact only a part of the email address was revealed.
not sure if this is helpful but Jacques Lacan, French ex-neo-alternative psychoanalyst coined a term extimite, or “intimate alterity.” Essentially, from what understand about this concept, it is the part of an individual, possibly a group, whose most intimate aspect about themselves are revealed to themselves (and whoever else can bear to watch) as an extremely foreign agency (the Other’s other), like what Americans like to call “terrorists” for example: I.e., anyone who disagrees with the Bush Felons.
It is not mere projection (which is based on repression), but the misrecognition of the most intimate characteristics of oneself as Other due to Verfwerfung (rejection).
As Lacan wrote:
“this other to whom I am more attached than to myself, since, at the heart of my assent to my identity to myself, it is he who stirs me” (Ecrits 172).
In other words, this intimate alterity is what Dean appears to have distilled from out of the national (global?) psychosis that is the Bush-Cheney administration.
More simply, the “war on terror” is the battle for the soul of what’s left of this once great nation which is, now, in the hands of a psychotic regime.
Note: Verwerfung is used by Freud to mean a rejection of something as if it did not exist, which is why it’s a type of psychosis and not a species of neuroses.
Just a note to the “concerned” folks about the issue of someone’s e-mail address being compromised — it was not. *ilson did what can be called in common parlance a “warning shot:” a close enough approximation of the actual e-mail addy that the person who was here, under false pretenses using a false name to be disruptive, was warned that a moderator saw through the ruse. It was a fair warning — and did not compromise the actual identity, nor did it compromise the e-mail or IP of the person. I’ve checked the entire thing out backstage.
If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with me: ReddHedd at firedoglake dot com. We will not allow people to disrupt this site under false pretenses, and we do everything we can to ensure privacy — but sometimes, a bit of a warning is necessary and, in this instance, it was warranted, as this was a serial disrupter. As I said, any questions, e-mail me. I would also suggest before people begin hurling accusations, that they actually ascertain what HAS gone on first. We all know what assuming can do…
And Glenn, I apologize for the interruption.
IIRC, *ilson merely paraphrased the email addy, not quoted exactlt. Much ado, folks.
Lose those friends @ 184
Actually, Altmeyer’s research conclusively disproves the claim that “inside every socialist beats the heart of an authoritarian.” He spent a good deal of time looking for leftwing authoritarianism (LWA), and he couldn’t find it. That doesn’t mean there can’t be authoritarians on the left. It’s just that they are what Altemeyer calls “wild card authoritarians.” They score in the upper 1/4 of both the RWA and LWA scales.
The catch is that no one in the upper 1/4 of the LWA scale crosses the 50% line, while high-scoring RWAs have come close to 100% on that scale. So someone who scores in the upper 1/4 of both scales scores much higher on RWA than LWA.
This is a very good plausible explanatio for the likes of Stalin and other authoritarians who come out on top after a revolution and act surprisingly like the folks they’ve overthrown, as well as bullies who switch sides, like Mussolini or David Horowitz.
As for “The Democrats in office [who] have enabled the conservatives without conscience,” that’s no proof that they are, themselves, authoritarians. Altemeyer’s own research suggests a sprinkling of some RWAs among Democrats in office, but the Democratic complicity is far more widespread than what Altemeyer’s data would suggest, if it were the cause of such behavior. There are many other explanations for for their behavior, including the simple failure to recognize how radically dangerous the current strain of movement conservatism is. RWA is not the only individual cognative factor responsible for impaired cognition, nor do we need to limit ourselves to individual, as opposed to group processess.
Again, Altemeyer’s research disproves this claim. Democratic caucuses were less authoritarian than Republican caucuses in every legislative body in every state the Altemeyer looked at except Louisiana. And in all but one or two the differences were statistically significant.
This sort of dichotomous either/or thinking is actually symptomatic of authoritarianism.
In fact, Altemeyer cites research by Stanley Milgrim showing that situational factors have a greater impact on how people act than their internal disposition as measured by the RWA scale. Most college-educated folks have heard about Milgrim’s experiments with subjects shocking people to the point of unconsciousness (simulated!) Less known is that Milgrim did a variant in which there was another subject who objected. In the presence of someone else voicing objections, the rate of obedience plummets.
brownandserve- turns out that *ilson did not reveal the poster’s email addy, or even a part of it. He changed the first part of the addy when he posted, so it was not, in fact, correct. However, I can understand why legit. posters might have been upset at this apparent lack of decorum.
Oh Christy!!! you are so great! Thanks much.
brownandserve @ 280
If you click on that particlar posters name it leads to a web site selling a book of the same name. “Liberals Without Logic”. He didn’t complain about it and likly enjoyed the FREE advertising.
Prof. Altermeyer thank you for your great work. And double thumbs up for Mr. Dean who’s popular book presented it all so eloquently.
I hope I’m reading this correctly but it appears the authoritarian personality type is within us all to varying degrees. We all have it in us and its probably a good thing. It makes our social structure work.
But the difference is in the level of intensity. The issue is the willingness of the individual to participate.
I’m very serious here . . .
Does your research begin to identify how these extreme positions might me overcome to effect a more rational society? The question is vitally important.
Thanks Again
You too, Coz. Thanks for the extra!
I want to make one thing clear: the people in the White House may not be “fascists” in the strict definition of the term, and in fact they just be Republicans with an authoritarian streak. But it seems clear that we are heading towards a fascistic condition even if there is no deliberate plan to do so. It could just happen so incrementally that no one notices until it is full-blown. A little chop here, a little chop there, and eventually the tree falls. How do you replant a fallen tree?
What I am saying is that the motivating energy of the right wing, whatever its intentions, are creating an almost irresistable trend towards a fascistic state, and at some point the trend may be irreversible, and we may arrive there even without its perpetrators intending to. We could just “fall” into a fascistic state.
That is the danger.
Perhaps another tact that may help is instead of attacking and deriding the fear that so many Bush supporters so obviously suffer would be to console them. As a child woken in the middle of the night from a nightmare. Get them to talk about their terror. Expand upon it and define it. The ultimate goal to be to show them that isn’t a monster under their bed but their baseball and glove.
Here’s THE REAL REASON WHY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS ARE THE WAY THEY ARE:
http://altair44.blogspot.com/2…..twing.html
I think Montag at 64 is really onto something: show leaders’ impotence, and followers of authority will melt away. The followers are there for the power they receive by association with it, and not with any rational ideological reasons.
Valley Girl @ 288
His book appears to be a direct affront to Dean’s book which is the only reason he was here, IMO. He’ll be back again next week too I guess ; )
justintime at 68 we’ll have none of that talk in this room! Back of the line and latrine duty for you, buddy.
EDITED BY SITE OWNER
NO OT DURING BOOK SALON
Coz- hope not, but you may be correct. “next week” = next dicussion, I assume. I will try to provide FDL heads up on this comment of yours.
1,255 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Orangejumpsuit:
Bless yer heart but you are deadass wrong. The fascist takeover is accomplished, it was planned and it’s strategic direction and intents were published in the late 1990’s as the plan for the “New American Century”…and the political tactics and use of authoritarian religion are right outta the fascist playbook, Germany 1928-1933.
We don’t hafta waste any time debatin’ the finer pointz of definition. The American public is lookin for an alternative and to debate whether ta call Republicans “authoritarian”, “neo-conservative” or anything else is a waste. As I’ve said before, when Americans have stepped in a pile a shit they really don’t care whether it’s bullshit er horseshit.
Let’s call ‘em what they are and let all the folks who aren’t fascist and are hurtin’ vote for our guys because they aren’t fascists they’re DEMOCRATS!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THEY’RE ALREADY IN YER FROMT YARD!!
Norske, 298:
I think we arrived at the same point through somewhat different logic. I’ll take that as an consensus. Thanks.
Glenn Greenwald @ 11
I fully agree, Glenn. This nation is fast dividing into those who think it can’t happen here and those who want it to. Progressives accordingly need to subordinate the desire to debate the right — to defeat it on the merits — to the aim of making it into People’s Exhibit A.
The sham in the right’s position needs to be placed in context, not just demolished but cut through to what it masks, an insidious agenda to transform the politics of this country.
The agenda is not all that well hidden but is hard to acknowledge for what it is, in part because of the myth that American politics is a God- or Framer-given perpetual motion machine. Under this myth, the pendulum will swing back so long as the system’s comfy cozy beneficiaries engage in politics conducted using conventional labels such as “liberal” and “conservative.” This is hardly so, and one need is to peel off the right’s conservative veneer. That is the nub of Dean’s accomplishment.
He makes an interesting departure from 1930’s Germany. Hitler’s main opponent in the run-up to the Seizure of Power was Alfred Hugenberg, a Krupp executive who led the German National Party (DNVP). Hugenberg thought he could control Hitler. He appeared with him in rallies, even suggested the two had formed a united front.
In the end, the DNVP only gave Hitler additional cover. Over time the Nazis were better able to mobilize reactionary emotions and peel off DNVP supporters.
Goldwater was no Hugenberg. Evidently nor is Dean. And of course other Republican have openly jumped ship. They cite narrow reasons, but make allusion to broader problems. If their vantage point can consolidate around Dean’s perspective, the menace will be seen for what it is. Progressives, meanwhile, can cheer the process on.
The sooner the American public sees these unsettling realities and parallels for what they are, the sooner it will rise to an awful occasion that is still unfolding.
itwasntme @
291
I think this happened in Katrina’s aftermath.
Considering the famous quote (was it Will Rogers?) that states (or perhaps I’m paraphrasing) “I’m not a member of an organized political party, I’m a Democrat,” it seems no surprise whatsoever that you’d be hard-pressed to find authoritarians in the Democratic Party.
On the other hand, the Republican Party is run in a strict, top-down authoritarian mode. People who are attracted to such a structure, not unsurprisingly, would tend to gravitate to the GOP.
Why would people desperate for a rigid hierarchy so they can genuflect to the Leaders (the only way for them to be psychologically “comfortable”) be attracted to the DNC?
creeping truth, 300
The Founder’s presumption of a self-balancing pendulum was based on a viable system of checks and balances prevailing between the three branches. What has happened under Bush is that the unitary executive concept has made a mockery of checks and balance, with the willing complicity of Congress and the Press.
That is why we are at this most dangerous crossroads. Will the Dems recapturing Congress help? Who knows. At the very least it might slow the march to the death of the very liberties that conservatives use to cherish, but now trample on.
Nuts. I’m playing catch-up today after being away for the state convention yesterday, couldn’t get into this thread on a timely basis. Very happy to see Glenn Greenwald hosting, and Jane and Bob Altermeyer dropping in to chat.
I’m still in the earliest chapters of Dean’s book, will have completed it by next weekend…but what I wanted to share now, in regards to the authoritarian nature of so-called conservatives in power.
Let me point out that there are more than one kind of authoritarian holding sway; the first makes active use of authority, the other has devolved to authoritarianism. Those who nursed at Nixon’s breast have always been authoritarian (absolutists and believers in power-gods); the others have been made over the course of the last two decades, either by influence or by terror. The dyed-in-the-wool may never fully give up their bent, but the others may yet be prised off that which they cling to for security.
Having read quite a bit about Clare Graves and Gravesian psychology, I can see a spectrum of emergence at work; there always are a percentage of people in our culture who are likely to be authoritarian, but not in sufficient quantity to affect a critical mass. It is the staging set by the 1990’s and the subsequent terror attacks and alerts that has pushed otherwise non-authoritarian people towards that end of the spectrum, so that authoritarians became a skant critical mass and effect change.
Don Beck and Chris Cowan wrote about this mechanism in their book, Spiral Dynamics; the basis for their work was Gravesian psychology and its framework of human emergence. Beck and Cowan counsel groups on the dynamics of emergence; they point to regression of cultures when under threat, and the psychology necessary to coax them back out of a regressive state towards a higher level of emergence. It is fundamental threats to safety and security that can collapse a people backwards, even as far as the Stone Age. Emergence and evolution take a predictable path forward, though; we can see in other emerging cultures what encouraged peoples to move forward.
In our case, our culture has suffered serious regression, driven by fear. During the ’90’s, as the “movement conservatives” began to organize themselves, they encouraged fear among their own, directed at persons who are far more developed. Clinton, for example, was a threat to their security, they claimed, drumming up fear about “tax-and-spend liberals” and invasion of privacy (as noted by Ashcroft’s Orwellian fearmongering about domestic spying). The conversative-leaning population was persuaded to be open to the idea that liberals should be feared, if they were not already bent towards authoritarianism.
9/11 was the straw that broke that camel’s back. People who were already open to fear were terrorized. It is for this reason that the LIHOP (let it happen on purpose) theory has gained so much ground; it was all that was needed after a decade or more of this softening to push enough leaners towards authoritarianism.
This multi-decade-long scenario explains why there is no overarching, umbrella conservative ideology. The core of authoritarianism believes only in itself, barely trusts itself; those it would persuade and hang onto by fear-mongering are driven by highly individualized fears (some by “the other”, some by direct threat to personal well-being, and so on). Fear is the unifying ideology, but it’s damned hard to make a successful brand out of fear without being a caricature of humanity.
Our challenge is this: to persuade the leaners that we have nothing to fear but fear itself, in an effort to restore to a critical mass the numbers required to effect real and constructive re-emergence. This is quintessentially liberal — liberating ourselves and our fellow Americans from fear.
As FDR put it in his first inaugural speech,
We do not have any choice but to overcome fear; we cannot use more fear as it will merely cause the backsliders to entrench towards authoritarianism, or worse (tribalism). Ken Wilber’s holonomic theory of consciousness suggests that WE cannot emerge to our next level without taking those at lower levels with us; it is key to our own emergence that we master this skill. Perhaps we, too, who are not authoritarian but egalitarian have also regressed because of fear. If this is the case, we must first master our own fear in order to dispel the fear that has sucked our fellow Americans backward.
We have begun to tackle our own fear when we begin to fight; we can see that it has an effect on the chemistry of politics when we do not vacillate in fear, but confront challenges head on, a la Howard Dean’s straight talk and Paul Hackett’s forceful rejection of right-wing talking points.
The right-leaning fearful are constantly sold a bill of goods that the left are incapable of national security; this is pointed fear-mongering calculated to sustain a level of terror. It is essential that we go to the heart of this, aggressively defend the country by attacking that which truly and deeply threatens our well-being: inequity and corruption.
This is the very nature of liberalism and progressivism, though, laying siege to inequity and corruption to encourage real freedom. It is in actively embracing that which is our most liberal and progressive selves that we can fight the fear that holds our country in a suffocating, authoritarian grip.
Christy Hardin Smith -
I don’t have any bad feelings toward *ilson for revealing my e-mail address. The reply page does say that addresses won’t be revealed but, as chance would have it, I don’t object to my e-mail address being revealed.
What I do object to is the claim that I was commenting “under false pretenses” and that I am “a serial disrupter.”
My comments tonight have suggested that Dean’s book is not immune from criticism. That idea, apparently, has been deemed disruptive on this blog.
There have been a couple of fearful messages suggesting that I might return on another day (is that against the rules on this blog for some reason?). Don’t worry, though. I wanted to start an open debate, and for better or worse, this blog is apparently not the place to do it.
Final thought — Do read Dean’s book, but read it critically.
This is the very nature of liberalism and progressivism, though, laying siege to inequity and corruption to encourage real freedom.
Rayne –
I loved your post
[although I’m completely unfamiliar with the work of the people you cite — would you mind giving a rough definition of “emergence” as you use it]
a lot!!!
In reference to the sentence I quoted above: I can almost *hear* in my mind’s “ear” the FDR-type eloquent and straightforward speech directed to the whole nation, based on that one sentence.
The nontechnical term is asskissers. They’re simply panicky with equals. Are you an inferior or a superior? Has to be one or the other. That need for hierarchy points both ways, so once they’re dislodged from perceived superiority (by failure, humiliation, destitution, any of the things this country has got coming), they flip effortlessly and kiss the new ass, prey on the new weaklings. A left-wing pol could combine sane policies with symbols of dominance and lead them around like little snuffling shar-peis. The most important thing, if the Dems regain the House: do not let bygones be bygone. This is a time to be vindictive. That’s why we need Rahm. He’s a prick.
mlaw230 @ 217,
My goodness, you need to write more. That was great.
I just wanted to tell you about my dad’s grandma, who was a little girl at the time of a very big battle coming through her backyard in Georgia. I still remember her and I was born in 1953; she lived to be a very old lady.
One thing she would not stand for was Yankee music. She’d slap the table and demand to know if that was Yankee music or Confederate music. And this was in the 1950s. Time did not heal her wounds, time did not even pass much.
Rayne –
I responded to your great post above, but that response seems to be in moderation now. If you can’t stick around now, maybe you can check back later once it’s released from the moderation “hold.”
[Boy would I love to know what triggered the mod software. I’m looking over the vocabulary I used and I can’t figure it out! — Not that I’m ornery about it, not at all. I’m just very curious about what it could be — it seems a real mystery to me!]
Mrs.K8 — as one who has to spring comments trapped in moderation, I am easily amused by trying to figure out exactly why the comment got trapped. Often it’s a mystery …
Kathryn in MA @ 300
I wonder. What I have seen is that the people who need to attach themselves to a strong leader will do so one way or another. A dear friend of mine was a charter member of the cult-of-the-month club. Moonies, Hare Krishna, Scientology, the lot. Seemed very frantic and lost when not in some group that controlled every aspect of his life 7/24. Insecure? Surrogate family? I don’t know. That kind of wrap-around being-with-others would drive me nuts in about 20 minutes. I also know that no amount of ridiculing his leader would have swayed him. Quite the opposite, he would have felt proud and happy to defend his leader from attack. Felt useful, his existence justified. I didn’t bother even discussing after a couple tries.
Well, when he called me a few years back to tell me that his current guru’s wife had delivered the Firstborn Son I screamed, “You called me at 2 am to tell me *that*?
I think the Prof Bob has the most useful suggestion, that is to deal with the other 75% of the pop. Also, I think, rather than fighting the *people* (whatever fighting would mean) a more useful thing might be preventing or reversing the *damage* they are doing.
First, we must protect Internet neutrality. *Hugest* deal, IMO. The Net is where we speak freely and assembly peaceably. We lose that and we are in big trouble.
Second, we must make sure our votes are counted. Paper ballots, ideally hand counted. Again, if that breaks we are screwed forever.
When those means of communicating with each other and to/with our government are secure we can begin to take back our govt, starting with the Democratic Party, if that’s what’s needed. Then get going on all that stuff that the whole dam country e3xcept the government wants to do — get out off Iraq, get rid of the MilInd complex, fix our schools, healthcare, global warming, levees, bring folks home to NO — no shortage of things to do. It’ll be fun.
Hey, if we do a good job, maybe the real Repubs (like my Mom, may she lph) will take back *their* party from the pirates who have hijacked it *g*.
Ghostman, we were chewing this over a couple days back on another thread. Maybe the R/D diff isn’t so much ‘right vs left’ but
lawful vs chaotic’. I’m thinking that explains more of what I observe. Needs some testing tho.
Got a head full of thoughts, this has been a *most* stimulating week at the Lake, but I’ll push the ’submit’ button while I’m having a temporary fit of submissiveness.
*ilson –
Do you still have your moderator hat on? If you can see it, tell me, isn’t that a profoundly innocuous comment (in terms of blog mischief)? It is to laugh!
OTOH, if you don’t have your moderator keys hanging on your belt (and I really have NO idea how that stuff works), don’t trouble yourself in the least. I’m not impatient, just bemused.
Ahhhh!
Never mind, *ilson, I just refreshed again, and I see it’s been sprung — if that was you, thanks!
Freedom!
Rayne — there’s a comment for you now!
its done sprung the moment you earlier mentioned your trapped comment. Hit F5 and reload this entire page — it’s been there !
Thanks Rayne at 302. I know that to be true instinctively, but it’s nice to be handed the truth again, as Wilber can do so powerfully. It makes a good case for true compassion, doesn’t it, as a path toward healing.
Sorry for being dense, *ilson!
Now we’re off to the dog park. [Speaking of which, how are your pups, *ilson?]
Have a great night, y’all! Be back asap.
I often mention the much older book by Jane Jacobs called ‘Systems of Survival’ which talked about two types of human ethics – call them the Traders and the Enforcers.
Each type of ethics is characterized by a whole set of values (Traders believe in efficiency, profitability and honesty, and question authority; Enforcers believe the end justifies the means, they tend to follow authority, they’re not supposed to work for commercial gain, and it’s ok if they lie if they think it’s for a good cause), and Jacobs argues that each type of ethics does have its place in human society but they should never mix. The old taboo against the “nobility” dabbling in the “trades” is a vestige of this prohibition on mixing the two.
Unfortunately, she also describes something called a “monstrous hybrid” mixing both types of ethics – basically when the lockstep obedience of the Enforcers mixes with the profit motive of Traders. Examples include war profiteers, the Mafia, meter maids with quotas, or asset forfeiture where police get to keep the stuff they get from people they accuse of crime.
I’ve always thought Jacobs’s ‘Systems of Survival’ was a landmark book, and it sheds a lot of light on the ‘Conservatives without Conscience’ described by Dean.
Fidelito, my 3-month-old runt-pup who almost died of parvo is fully recovered and healthy. He’s lost his puppy-look and now acts like a ‘toy pitbull’ – so cute !
hooray for Fidelito and his human!
BIG-DADDY CONSERVATIVES!!
I hope people won’t mind if I answer, as best I can,the questions that have come up since I made my comments about how intelligent this discussion was (and continues to be) and why there is reason to believe all is not lost.
Peter Thomas asked a very appropriate question: Do I do my surveys on Canadian subjects or Americans? I do almost all of my research, which includes experiments as well as surveys, in Canada and almost all of that among intro psych students at my university and (because they love their children so) their parents. I do some studies in the United States, such as my surveys of state legislators. But almost all the data on American right-wing authoritarianism has come from American researchers all over the place. One of the interesting things about all this hustle and bustle is how well the findings repeat themselves from place to place. Over the past 25 years, there have only been about a dozen “failures to replicate” that I know of–a lot of them by myself. The evidence is strong to this point that findings based on my local populations will show up almost everywhere else the same study is done. (A lot of that has to do with the strong reliability of the central measures used, I think.)(I like to beat the band for developing reliable and powerful scales.)
Cajo359 asked if I think there is an “organic component” to authoritarianism. If by that one means a biological thing-a-ma-jigy somewhere in the brain that facilitates these behaviors, I know of no convincing evidence so far, but I wouldn’t be surprised if someday it turns up. The central defining behavior of the authoritarian follower is submission, and that of the authoritarian leader is (duh) dominance.
Submission and dominance are powerful mainsprings in the social behavior of lots and lots of species, and we know we can genetically produce dominating dogs and gentle rats by controlling who mates with whom. (An experiment we have yet to carry out with intro psych students.) But to this point we can make our best predictors of how much a person will likely be an authoritarian follower by the experiences they have had in life…and those turn out to be quite good predictions. We aren’t nearly as far along in discovering what makes someone a social dominator.
Mlaw230 asked if I thought there was some aspect of the authoritarian mind that insists on the veneer of legality. I think the evidence so far says yes and no. If you put authoritarian followers in a moral dilemma (e.g. would you steal a ridiculously expensive drug to save someone’s life) high scorers on the Right-Wing Authoritarian scale are much more likely than most other people to say no, because stealing is against the law. And if you ask people who are hostile toward homosexuals if they would nevertheless hire a homosexual grade school teacher if there was a law forbidding discrimination against gays, high RWAs SAY yes, they would have to rather than disobey the law. But on the other hand (and this is more to the point of your question, I suspect) high RWAs don’t really mind if the authorities they like break the law to pursue their ends. They have a “Daddy knows best” attitude toward the “proper authorities” and will tell you that since the authorities make the laws, they can therefore decide if the laws apply to them. This helps explain something to me about the current administration, whose defense of such things as the domestic spying program is so patently flimsy. (The issue was not whether potential terrorists needed to be spied upon, but whether one should obey the law and get a warrant first.) The defense is flimsy, I think, because the administration knows it really doesn’t matter to their core supporters whether they broke the law or not.
Sonoma Rus asked for my opinion as to whether the authoritarian personality type dwells within us all. I don’t like to talk about “types,” and I do try to point out in my writings that all my findings concern how some people who score relatively high on some test behaved compared to those who scored relatively low. So that means my answer to the question is, yes. The Milgram experiment showed how easily our knees buckle because so few of us, I think, have had much training at defying authority. I know mine would have buckled.f I had been tested back then.(But some people can be quite amazing in this regard. I don’t think the Experimenter could have gotten my wife to comply. She’d have turned him into a soprano first.)
Sonoma Rus also asked how extreme positions can be overcome. I don’t know. That’s a really tough one. People with extreme positions on an issue are usually very, very committed to them.
Paul Rosenberg gets whatever prize life might present to the person who knows my research better than I do. (Maybe a pocket comb?)I had no idea someone read all the stuff I wrote.
Speaking of which,if this helps,I have written three books on authoritarianism, and two books on religion. (But I didn’t know I had “credibility problems” because of this, as Peter Thomas asserted at 196.) I personally don’t think the researcher matters much in this business. It would be much more important if the studies were flawed or biased or misinterpreted, than if the researcher were a dirty rotten scoundrel. To my knowledge, there really hasn’t been much criticism of the scientific quality or value of the research in question so far–although I suspect some people are searching mightily for it now. Rather to the contrary, in fact.
Finally to Fern, whoever you are. Please don’t tell Shar anything about this. Almost no one up here knows anything about this…which helps me do my studies. But yes, it is a small world. And the internet has made it incredibly smaller. Now if I could only learn how to post messages on the first try.
First of all, cheney is short…..only 5′8″ (Rummy is 5′6″)….most folks don’t know that. Women have been ridiculed for centuries concerning their physical attributes so I don’t feel bad about attacking this short guy.
His wealth….how did he get it? Certainly can’t play capitalism with the big boys, can he? Nope, he’s gotta have all his contracts w/ Halliburton given to him on a no-bid basis. I bet he even cheats at Monopoly….I heard that his family won’t play with him anymore because of the cheating.
Oh, and let’s see…how many deferments did cheney get from Vietnam? I think it was 5! What was cheney scared of? He was too scared to go to Vietnam, but he sends others to Iraq….gee what a man….a very small man, huh?
Cheney really is easy to make fun of….he is like a little boy sitting on the floor playing with his little GI Joe dolls. He’s a coward.
Let me explain in a bit more detail why Jane Jacobs’s book ‘Systems of Survival’ is important to help deal with the problem of ‘Conservatives Without Conscience’:
Reviewing the thread in more detail now, I see a lot of commenters wondering “How do people get this way?”
I think it’s important to understand how NATURAL and even ADAPTIVE the ‘Enforcer’ school of ethics has been for human society – as long as it sticks to what it was designed for, which was enforcing rules and such, and not making money or other personal gain for its practitioners.
We need to remember that the authoritarianism we’re seeing is a perversion of what is probably an otherwise healthy ‘Enforcer’ ethics about following rules and leaders unquestioningly in certain situations and institutions. The “monstrous hybrids” Jacobs talks about happen when this ethics of obedience mixes with the ‘Trader’ ethics of profit: and we get things like Halliburton.
And in this day and age, I’d broaden Jacobs’s definition of “profit” slightly to include not just money, but also other abstractions such as attention, approval, fame, or even (perceived) sexiness. I’m looking at the war bloggers, the Malkins and Coulters and Andy Sullivans, guys like Hitchens, Lieberman, Blackwell, and all the other turncoats and Uncle Toms (and * himself, if he indeed is the closet case gay many believe him to be). Authoritarianism has given a way for the Fighting 101st Keyboarders and the Yellow Elephants and the Chris Matthews and Tucker Carlsons and Abu Gonzalezes and all the other little scaredy-cat chickenshits of the world to act MACHO in the media, and the “profit” (to them personally) of this virtual rush of testosterone, mixed with the kneejerk obedience to the “commander in chief” and the lethal power of American empire and technology, is probably the deadliest “monstrous hybrid” the world has ever seen.
So my main point about Jacobs is this: let’s stop wondering where the tendency to authoritarianism comes from. The Enforcer school of ethics is normal and healthy and it serves us well in (not-for-profit) armies and police forces. What’s sick here is the mixing-in of the profit motive of the Traders. I’m not a starry-eyed Kumbayah-singing type who always says “Can’t we all just get along,” but I nonetheless DO think it would be very good if we didn’t just regard the 20-30% who support Bush as somehow incurable sickos, and we’d probably peel off a good number of them if we simply gave them something LEGITIMATE and not-for-profit to obey. Their disinterest in questioning authority does have its place – in a world which isn’t run by war profiteers and closetcase chickenhawks, of course. I guess what I’m arguing is that these people could ultimately be brought back into the fold if there were a legitimate, not-for-profit authority for them to follow. I also think that if we want to understand and dismantle authoritarianism, we should study things like the Mafia and asset-forfeiture laws such as RICO, and the other monstrous hybrids Jacobs points out. Not to knock Dean at all, but Jacobs did hit on a lot of the same stuff he did, albeit in a more general framework perhaps since she was writing before the neocons came to power. (Full disclosure: I haven’t read ‘CWC’ yet! I’m just going on all the comments I hear, which seem to be echo and amplify the monstrous hybrid stuff from ‘Systems of Survival’).
I’m also agreeing with many others upthread who have argued that this is more about “psychology” than “issues”. These people’s reflexive obedience is a given. We just need to give them something legitimate to obey.
To Bob Altermeyer @ 319
I’m always hoping SOMEONE on these threads responds to my comments about Jane Jacobs’s book ‘Systems of Survival’.
Please tell me you’ve heard of it. She lived in Toronto for a while! But seriously, you and her seem to be on the same track in so many ways. I would be really interested in hearing your take on her work.
She talks a LOT about the idea of whether it’s ok to break the rules in pursuit of some higher goal (ie, “the ends justify the means”). I found her answer highly original and optimistic: there’s a school of ethics where it’s fine (the Enforcers), and a school of ethics where it isn’t (the Traders), and both schools are necessary but they shall not mix.
i just hope that for all of our efforts we will better understand the nature of the beast which plagues us. “authoritarians” is apt term because it identifies the nature of the dynamic. though it sounds more provocative, tyranny is what we are really up against.
So the 300 billion dollar question is how do you undermine institutionalized tyranny?
Mommybrain @ 8
Dean has described “sheep”mentality. These sheep need a new “shepard” – one who will lead them into a new direction. Let’s try to make that OUR direction. Don’t try to change their minds – try to change their leaders. The ‘child psychology’ technique of re-directing their attention to something positive.
We just need to give them something legitimate to obey.
i totally agree. but unfortunately, these people are not willing to acknowledge what is known as stubborn fact and b/c of it the type of legitimate authority they will finally obey will be provided for them by the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
think katrina and bush’s response to it. that’s the problem.
Bob, 320: Thanks for coming back to expand on your comments and views.
Re the question whether there is an organic component to the authoritarian personality, not being a zoologist or psychologist (philosophy major) I would have to say that there is enought evidence out there to support at least a working hypothesis that yes, there is.
It is quite evident among mammalian animals that the survival of the species depends very much on social hiearchies and ordering, an evident example being that of the alpha male who dominates the troop or pack, as well as the senior females who dominate the younger ones. These are authority figures writ large. So unless we believe there is a leadership school in a pack of wolves, the behavior of an alpha male is genetically determined. And by extensioin, if dominance is genetically influenced, so is submission.
The big question here is how these (hypothetically) genetic determinants influence socio-political structures and behavior among the human species. As a species we are still evolving, and in some ways devolving (regressing). The long term question is whether humanity can evolve quickly enough towards stability and harmony in order to avoid global disaster as a species. Right now, my guess is that the odds are less than 50-50 that society will survive in its current form.
However, as social disorder (read entropy) increases, and the current environment shows an exponential increase of disorder not only in society but in the environment as well (global warming), this give vastly greater opportunities for authoritarian types to seize the reins of power, just as we have witnessed with the Bush administration, as well as in Iran, Korea, China, the Middle East, and elsewhere. Put simply, democracy is under threat of becoming obsolete because of looming threats we face.
On the face of it, it is clear: 9/11 led step by step to a vast increase in authoritarian rule in the US in just 5 short years. Is this a global omen? I hope not, but I do think that your studies put you right in the crucible of an experiment I would rather not be in, but have no choice but to be.
The greatest irony here is that our leader professes to want to spread democracy abroad while running the most authoritarian regime in the history of the United States.
The ‘child psychology’ technique of re-directing their attention to something positive.
the problem with this eminently reasonable approach can be countered in one word: DIEBOLD.
it doesn’t matter what the second tier sheep do. the election results will be manipulated. again.
we’re talking tyranny here, not animal husbandry.
Rayne, 303: Interesting post. I intend to try to catch up with some of Wilber’s ideas.
x174 @ 328
Yeah, it’s pretty awful.
(I am quoting from myself, 310 above)
I think the Prof Bob has the most useful suggestion, that is to deal with the other 75% of the pop. Also, I think, rather than fighting the *people* (whatever fighting would mean) a more useful thing might be preventing or reversing the *damage* they are doing.
First, we must protect Internet neutrality. *Hugest* deal, IMO. The Net is where we speak freely and assembly peaceably. We lose that and we are in big trouble.
Second, we must make sure our votes are counted. Paper ballots, ideally hand counted. Again, if that breaks we are screwed forever.
When those means of communicating with each other and to/with our government are secure we can begin to take back our govt, starting with the Democratic Party, if that’s what’s needed. Then get going on all that stuff that the whole damn country except the government wants to do — get out off Iraq, get rid of the MilInd complex, fix our schools, healthcare, global warming, levees, bring folks home to NO — no shortage of things to do. It’ll be fun.
Hey, if we do a good job, maybe the real Repubs (like my Mom, may she lph) will take back *their* party from the pirates who have hijacked it *g*.
Norman Mailer calls them Flag Conservatives.
Cw/oC is a great read, if you haven’t read it, do so, for your own sanity.
BTW, Glenn Greenwald = R0×0rS ur B0×0rS
Prof Altemeyer — thanks so much for stopping by and taking the time and trouble to address people’s questions and points. It is greatly appreciated.
one of the surreal ironies of the authoritarian theory of Upper Neoclownia is that bush is one of the followers; he submits to cheney’s authority.
so i posit the following: if you can get george bush to change his behavior, you win.
Did many of these RWAs come out of the closet just to be on the ‘winning team?’ Rove has emboldened these creeps (by using their hatred of women and gays)….they’ve discovered politics and the fun of winning. It’s like pro football toward the end of the season and a certain team is winning and looks like it might be headed to the Superbowl….all the jerks jump on the bandwagon….this is what these RWAs remind me of. It’s as if they have no fucking clue that we’re headed to Fascism…all they care about is being on the winning team.
I used to be a stockbroker and all I saw was Fear and Greed….sometimes it just comes down to these 2 motivators. The ‘04 Election used Fear on the women and Greed on the men.
If the Dems were smart, they would start scaring the ever loving piss out of Americans!
speaking of sheep!
If the Dems were smart, they would start scaring the ever loving piss out of Americans!
i don’t think mimicking tyrants is an improvement.
orangejumpsuit @
329
I intended to do that for a while too, OrangeJumpSuit and gave it a good go. It’s a little like standing in the brilliant sunshine with no shades.
Thanks again for that great post Rayne.
surfer @ 337
OK, I’ll use sunblock 35 while reading him.
No….not in that way. Look at what is being done to our Environment! I speak of rational fears. It is rational to fear the coming toxic air and water. But we can do something about this….we can vote for Dems who will work on cleaning up the air and water. See?
There are many rational fears out there that the Dems could highlight and provide solutions.
That should do it. Bring lots of water.
Tossed about last night mulling over this thread and Cw/oC.
You see, a resolution failed to pass supporting impeachment proceedings against POTUS/VP at both local and state party levels — the older folks believed it was counter to our interests.
But it is the enforcement of law that is likely to speak across to those who have slipped towards authoritarianism; those who are absolutists (read: breastfed by Nixon) will not grok this, but those conservatives whose daily lives depend upon the rule of law (regulatory or scientific, i.e. finance, science, etc.) are those who will be persuaded most by calm, rational, judicious but firm enforcement.
We are being led by lawbreakers, who have broken codes both legislated and moral. It is not compassionate to forgive them, it is abandonment of the unifying social contract.
In some ways we need to look at this as dealing with toddlers; they do not learn respect by being permitted to do anything they like, but by firm guidance with either/or simplicity. [Yes, you may pet the kitty nicely. No, you may not pull his hair (being prepared to take the kitty to safety or put the toddler in time out). Yes, you may have a cookie. No, you may not take the entire plate (being prepared to remove the plate out of reach).] We need to re-teach a group of people who have been increasingly persuaded that laws do not apply to them that law is for the benefit of all, that it is our agreement, that failing to comply is not acceptable and will result in firm, effective discipline.
Lakoff talks of the stern father versus nurturing mother, with the stern father being autocratic and authoritarian. A generation has grown up being overindulged, having few limits, watching authoritarian father figures saying, Do as I say, not as I do. The nurturing mother-types have only clucked ineffectually, Oh, kids will be kids…
F*ck that. It’s time for Mom to boot Dad out of the house along with his dysfunctional ways. It’s time for the nurturing mother to embrace her strength and be firm, like mother wolves are with their pups.
In a very basic way, this is the crux of the matter within the Democratic Party and the Lamont-Lieberman race. Others have likened Lieberman to a spoiled brat who refuses to follow the rules. Some bristle at the word, “purge”.
But what we are doing is rising up to enforce our code; it is not a purge, but effective discipline. If we cannot effectively parent this spoiled child, we will not convey to those most at risk that they are safe, and that we liberals/progressives are capable of doing what must be done to protect them.
In other words, we must lead by example with our own “family”, else we will be unable to lead the nation.
Heh. In re: my last comment about the firm mother wolf type — I just realized that’s what’s so damned cool about FireDogLake.
Firm women who love passionately but don’t take crap even from the ones they love.
I love FDL’s book salons and I am sorry I was unable to be here yesterday, but reading this thread this am has been a real treat.
Rayne, 342
Rayne, if you are still here, I wandered by Wilber’s official website and discovered that he has injured himself in an accident at home. Happened a couple of weeks ago. Thought you might be interested.
http://www.kenwilber.com/news/list/1
OJS — thanks for that, I had not heard that. Typically I go to Shambala website for his work, didn’t see that news there. Holy Toledo…that’s an incredible set of circumstances and outcome from a simple bump in the night.
Hope this was only a cosmic message to Ken to slow down. It’s too damned soon to lose him, he has so much work yet to do as our current circumstances here in the US and the middle east show all too well.
Rayne, 345:
You’re welcome Rayne. BTW I understand you are from the Islands. I am from Honolulu, Makiki/Punchbowl area, parents from Wailuku, Maui. Currently live in NY. Don’t ask.
Aloha!
Orangejumpsuit, moi aussi from Honolulu! Born in St. Francis hospital, lived on Wiley Street until I was four, when we went to SF. Went back for the first time year before last. Sheesh. In my time it was a sleepy, non-touristy town.
BTW, Wilber also suffers from CFIDS — chronic fatigue and immune disorder syndrome. That means a relatively minor medical crisis can have big consequences because his immune system is deficient. Therefore the huge bruises from a simple fall for a relatively young man (59).
Being Buddhist, Wilber understands karma. This will help him approach the next phase of his spiritual growth. Right now, he needs to ask, “Who is Ken Wilber?” (As we all do about ourself.)
Mommybrain @ 347
Yeah, but no more. The price of progress, eh? So you are a Nuuanu girl. Lovely area though a bit moist.
This has been an awesome thread, but quiet now, so a few stragglers are allowed to reminisce. There are a fair number of fdl’ers from Hawaii, as I notice from some of the names and comments. There is also someone who calls him/herself Kewalo.
This is one amazing book, I just finished it a couple of weeks ago. We now have the pathology of the Bushite Republican party. I’ve been trying formula some sort of strategy to use this information. It would appear that a third of the country is pretty much lost. Mentally I just can’t wrap my mind around that, so many people that hate this country and everything it stands for. It would be great if we could build an action plan to use this to help us turn the tide.
slade @
334
Hate, fear, and greed are all the Republican party sells now. Every issue they offer three versions of it to convince you they are right. Immigration is a great example, they have the straight hate message. Then they have they are all criminals message and they are going to hurt you. Then they have the they are going to take your job message.
OJS — hey, not me, my father’s the ka’ama’aina. I’m hapa, born on the mainland. Dad’s family is from Milolii – can’t get much more rustic than that. Explains why he got on so well with a girl from the boonies of Michigan’s Upper Peninsula; they were both from dirt-poor families, from rustic outback places on the water, used to hardships.
Re: Wilber — you know, I think Wilber’s question isn’t about Wilber. He’s had a continuous string of circumstances that have forced him to let go of the physical. Perhaps the question is less what/who is Wilber, but what is I-I, and how will it go on without whatever he brings as the physical being currently known as Wilber. At least that’s what it looks like from here.
Jamison — yes, a pathology; I think we’ve seen a lot of texts over the last 5 years that have beat around the bush (so to speak), including Bush on the Couch. But none have so lucidly tied up all the loose ends into one framework.
What I deeply appreciate and believe could work is that which integral psychologist Ken Wilber espouses in his community, Integral Institute: Let the next words out of your mouth be from your Highest Self as you understand it. We have never really challenged the right to walk the walk, to be that better person and culture they claim they are. We have not challenged ourselves to be our own higher selves, in challenging them.
I think it could work; it’s part of that shift from a autocratic/authoritarian-distant father and an ineffectual nurturing mother, to a universal parent who is firm in expectations yet understanding of the gap between current capacity and future ability.
Rayne, 352: Hapa is cool, Michigan is cold. (shaka)
I know I’m a little late here. I don’t care. This is an eye-opener of a book.
One of the points I see Dean making that I haven’t seen mentioned is the payback-for-Watergate angle. I was surprised that these people were still pursuing this. But after a little further thought about Liddy and Colson and that crew? I have no doubt.
I don’t doubt that Dean has a bit of a personal axe to grind here. But I think he’s got a lot more ground to stand on than his opponents. He’s one of the few that has/had a conscience, although he’s too gentlemanly to make the point directly. He was bought in to the scheme at first; he knew, to his credit, when it was time to fess up.
Yes, he is a convicted felon. None of the Watergate folks were ever pardoned that I know. I suspect he might be of two minds about a proffered pardon. I think he’s made his peace. I doubt that throwing “felon” in his face would make him back off one bit when offering testimony before a Congressional committee. Conscience.
His observations on Liddy, Colson and others and the sort of formative process going on in the ’90s I found very illuminating. Liddy could care less. Colson has found Jesus and been “forgiven”. Neither has changed a bit. There are plenty of others apparently who feel the same sense of wounded pride and vengefulness. No conscience – which is the point.
I think the analysis which makes up the bulk of the book is spot-on. This is a man unafraid of science and comfortable in pondering and using it. Upon stumbling across an area of study he was obviously unfamiliar with, he has the intellectual curiousity and ability to review it, judge it and find that it helps him answer questions he has been grappling with in his own field of study.
Goldwater. Is he spinning in his grave? No doubt in my mind. He was spinning before he left, God bless him. I find myself contemplating, way-lefty that I am, reading Conscience of a Conservative. Goldwater is the man who, when asked about gays in the military, stated, “Who the hell cares?” I’m sure I’ll find plenty I don’t agree with, but I suspect I’ll find things I can agree with. This is America, after all.
I can live with Conservatives like that. And like Mr. Dean. Thank you, sir, for an astoundingly apropos and well-produced primer on what the hell is going on with our country.
The only complaint I have is this. Like Thomas Frank’s excellent What’s the Matter With Kansas? and any number of other recent books and magazine and blog articles, it’s mighty short on solutions.
It’s a vital challenge.