
I have known a lot of Marines and former Marines in my lifetime. To a man and woman, they are tough as nails, and as loyal as they come to this nation and to the Corps. That whole jarhead stereotype isn’t far from the mark with a few folks that I know — and they’d be proud to know that I thought so, knowing a couple of them, and their carefully maintained buzz cuts. I’ve also got a number of friends who are lifers in the Army, and who have served multiple tours in the Gulf region, including as far back as the first Gulf War.
Which makes this all the more painful:
On Tuesday, the Marines announced plans to recall as many as 2,500 inactive reservists to involuntary active-duty service to meet manpower needs, the first such call-up since nearly 2,700 Marines were recalled to active-duty before U.S. forces invaded Iraq in 2003.
The announcement coincided with a report to be issued Wednesday by two military experts who say that the Marines are having to borrow equipment from non-deployed units and pre-positioned stockpiles to replace tanks, trucks, armored vehicles and other hardware worn out by more than three years of combat duty in Iraq.
The two events are the latest signs that the U.S. military is having difficulty maintaining its combat readiness with the Iraq war well into its fourth year….
The move follows similar call-ups by the Army, which has recalled about 5,100 former soldiers back to service since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Most of those have been activated since 2004, and 2,100 remain on active duty, according to Army officials….
The war has forced the Marines to keep about 40 percent of its ground combat equipment, 50 percent of its communications gear and 20 percent of its aircraft in Iraq, the report says.
Helicopters fly two to three times more hours than they should, tanks are being used four times as much as anticipated, and Humvees are being driven an average of 480 miles a month, 70 percent of which is off-road.
The harsh desert and combat losses are chewing up other gear at nine times their planned rates. Humvees that were expected to last 14 years need to be replaced after only four years in the extreme conditions of the Iraqi desert, the report says.
"This war in Iraq, in addition to the human cost, has a very heavy equipment cost, and this bill is going to have to be paid for years to come," said Larry J. Korb, a former Pentagon official and co-author of the report. (emphasis mine)
In case you are wondering why it is that I’m focusing on military readiness this morning, it’s because of this:
Because of the situation, the Marines, like the Army, have been forced to take equipment from non-deployed units and pre-positioned stockpiles in Europe and elsewhere to maintain sufficient combat gear for units in Iraq, seriously hampering their ability to respond to a crisis elsewhere, said Korb, now a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. (emphasis mine)
And this:
For the past few years, the Marines have used volunteers from the IRR, but the number of Marines volunteering to be mobilized has decreased over the past two years, and now the Marine Corps is about 1,200 Marines short of its needs, Stratton said. (emphasis mine)
And this:
The Army struggled to bring IRR soldiers back initially. Half of the Individual Ready Reserve members given orders in 2004 by the Army asked for either a delay or an exemption to the order, according to a report in Stars and Stripes from January 2005.Hundreds of other IRR members failed to show up at deployment stations when ordered to do so, the story noted. (emphasis mine)
And also this:
The authority for involuntary recalls is until the end of the "Global War on Terror" — a conflict for which there is no realistic end in sight. That could mean thousands of Marines could be involuntary activated over coming years….Some members of Congress have characterized the involuntary recalls and other measures as a "back-door draft" employed because wars have overly stressed the military. Other measures include "stop-loss" orders, which keep soldiers on active duty longer than expected. (emphasis mine)
And then there is this:
The military has had to scramble to meet the manpower requirements of the Iraq war, which have not abated in the face of a continuing insurgency and growing civil strife. Earlier this year, the military called forward its reserve force stationed in Kuwait, sending one battalion to secure Baghdad and two to Ramadi. Last month, the yearlong deployment of the Alaska-based 172nd Stryker Brigade was extended by four months in order to provide extra troops to roll back escalating sectarian violence in Baghdad.For much of the conflict, the Army has had to use "stop-loss orders," which keep soldiers in their units even after their active-duty commitment is complete, and involuntarily call-ups of reservists to supplement their forces.
The call-ups and the stop-loss orders have been criticized as a "back-door draft" and are unpopular with service members, many of whom believe they have already done their part.
"You can send Marines back for a third or fourth time, but you have to understand you are destroying their lives," said Paul Rieckhoff, the founder of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. "It is not what they intended the all-volunteer military to look like." (emphasis mine)
As I said yesterday morning, there has been no real accountability expected of the Bush Administration from the Republican-controlled Congress, which prefers to simply rubber-stamp the requests from Bush and the Pentagon rather than perform their Constitutional responsibility of oversight.
Guess they would rather "unilateral executive" themselves out of a job…if I have my way in November, they’ll do just that.
Our nation’s military deserves better. After the debacle that was Vietnam, our military services were devastated — in manpower, in budgetary constraints and in equipment problems — for years. The ill-planned, poorly managed occupation of Iraq is providing the same drain on our resources, with no end in sight at a time when we can ill afford to be so low on response capability should a terrorist or other small state actor move against our nation or our interests abroad.
The piss poor planning and the responsibility for this entire mess goes right back to the Bush Administration: George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld will pay a heavy price in history if they continue down this path without any accountability and checks on this quagmire, because they are close to breaking the Army, the Marines and the Reserves.
As Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI) said:
…the involuntary recall reflects the "wear and tear" on the U.S. military.
"The drain on our soldiers, their families and the military’s resources caused by today’s operations in Iraq and Afghanistan need to be addressed immediately, or there will be severe long term consequences for the nation and our military," Reed said.
Republicans have proven for the last five and a half years that they will not do adequate oversight, nor will they expect any accountability for any screw-up by the Bush Administration. Don’t our men and women in uniform deserve better than that? Why would anyone trust them to do better after more than five years of continual screw-ups?
And that’s not even mentioning the fact that the Taliban is having a resurgance in the southern region of Afghanistan, and we do not have the troops to help beyond what we are already doing. And so many other potential hotspots just looming out there on the horizon — with or without any pro-active planning on our part to deal with them before they become a crisis. (Yeah, like that whole Lebanon/Israel thing which the Bush Administration was SO on top of from the get go, weren’t they? *rolling eyes*)
Do you trust George Bush to make correct decisions without someone outside the Administration forcing the issue of accountabiity? Me neither — and since the GOP hasn’t bothered to do their damn jobs, it is up to the Democrats to do it. Had enough?
UPDATE: FiredUpMissouri has some thoughts on problems with combat readiness from Rep. Ike Skelton.




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NED!
Christy! Ned!
This is all because Bush thought it would be a good idea to whack a hornet’s nest with a stick so he could look like a big man. Too bad he’s not the one getting stung.
Morning all — on my first cuppa coffee here this morning, with a peanut whose temperature is, mercifully, back to normal. How’s everyone this morning?
gravie at 3 — whacking a hornet’s nest is a great analogy — I may have to use that at some point. *g*
It’s gonna get worse before it gets better.
And good morning back, CHS.
Tommy at 6 — how’s your peanut doing? Don’t a remember you were having a fever issue at your house as well?
Thanks, Christy– I’d be honored.
So, the longer this thing drags on, the more troops we need, the harder it is to keep them properly supplied, the harder it is to interest anyone in military life, the older and more criminal the volunteers we’re willing to take, the less prepared we are to meet defense needs elsewhere…
NEVER AGAIN do I want to hear about how Democrats weaken the military, how the Democrats are weak on security. NEVER. This is mismanagement to a degree that borders on, if not actually is, criminal.
This for a war Bush chose to fight.
Haha, not lately, CHS. “Peepers” threw up the other morning, but was back on track later that day. The worst of it was the crumbs of toast on the bed!
I’ve just had lots of experience with the whole “when will the fever be high enough for them to see you” routine.
School starts Friday. Here it comes: what we in Pittsboro like to call “Pboli.”
Hey Christy:
I am fine thanks. Have been busy canvassing for two awesome Dems here in Florida who are running for the Florida House. Keeps me busy and on the streets in a positive way. Glad the Peanut’s fever has broken. My 2nd grader properly used the words “cocktail party” in a sentence in front of her teacher and some other moms yesterday. I. am. so. proud.
Heartsick about the Marines. Off to knock on doors, kick ass and take names.
and of course, they are still ejecting servicepeople who are gay …
I’d really like to know when the military is going to finally turn against the GOP. I mean, it’s valorous service on one side (Cleland, Kerry, Murtha, etc etc etc) and chickenhawks on the other, who have already been profligate with lives.
We need to take this “strong on defense” meme and shove it up their ass. They’re killing us. Literally.
*ilson at 12 — yeah, several of whom recently were language specialists in badly needed translation areas. Because, you know, heaven forbid their usefulness and patriotism should be considered more valuable than their sexual orientation. *rolls eyes*
*ilson46201 @ 12
…and fluent in Arabic. I still cannot believe that one.
All of this doesn’t seem to matter, as Bush’s poll numbers are improving. Or do you think his recent improvement in the polls is a fabrication? I don’t get why the dots never seem to get connected. His ineptness and deadly mistakes don’t seem to matter.
I am heart sickened by the call up of the marines. They’ve already given and given.
Tommy at 13 — In reading through all of the articles that I did putting this piece together, it’s obvious to me that something is going on in the officer corps. We don’t generally get a glimpse of this many problems in the military at once without it stemming from a concerted effort. And I’m wondering if this is part of an end-run of Rummy. But it would require real hearings in Congress on this. The Generals who were with Rummy at the last Senate Armed Services Committee hearing were unusually candid (on their scale of being forthright publicly, anyway), and I have had this nagging feeling the last month or so that something is up — perhaps the problems for the Army and Marines have reached a critical mass, I just don’t know, but I’m hearing and reading publicly a lot of what I’d only been hearing as private grumbles.
And that makes me nervous about what we DON’T know at this point.
First let me say, Christy–glad the Peanut is okay. I’ve been through that too many times with my 3.5 yr old. The worst was the time she popped 107 twice and the pediatrician didn’t believe us because we were using an arterial scanner so we had to rush out for a rectal thermometer to confirm (it only went to 106, but she pushed that to its limit). Thankfully Daddy the Doc confirmed with the Ped. that the hospital would just mean more trauma and we should treat her at home, but it was scary. I’ve been holding you in my thoughts a lot the last few days!!!
I’ll put my political thoughts in a second comment!
mjh at 16 — Bush’s poll numbers overall have stayed fairly stagnant across a number of polls that I’ve seen. Are you looking at a specific poll?
Christy, I can’t tell how mad I am about all this because my vocabulary stops along about livid.
But, Florida Mom, what you’re doing today is best part of the solution, so
ROWR!!! Go get ‘em!!!
mjh @ 16
I was not under the impression that his poll numbers were improving. But I do agree with you about the dots. This loser of a president is continuously given a hall pass by the MSM, other Republican leaders and worst of all, the American people.
I am old enough to remember the outrage in the country and the senitment of the people and the sadness leading up to Richard Nixon’s resignation. What I am feeling here is an overwhelming need by the majority of people I hang with to pretend that everything is alright and its just those damn terrorists.
I don’t get it.
It came up last night that astralplame’s boyfriend may be recalled…
My comment at the end of the last thread–not technically EPU’d, but now on topic so I thought I’d repeat:
astral–best of luck to you and your bf.
These continuous back-door drafts are, for a volunteer army, the military equivalent of eating your seed corn. The young men who are normally the army’s targets for recruiting start to figure out that these sorts of long-after-the-fact callups mean that signing up for a two-year stint is actually signing up for life. And that makes recruiting them that much harder.
It’s the sort of thing you can get away with for a couple of years, but bites you hard in the long run.
Yes, I’m embarrassed to say that I saw it on AOL yesterday that his approval rating had gone up to around 46% (I think). I was stunned to see that, and I didn’t get a chance to investigate which poll it was do to time constraints.
When I’m in tinfoil hat territory, it’s somewhat comforting to know that, if martial law were declared (say, oh…November 10 or so) that the Reserve troops could hardly enforce it, being at such reduced capacity and all.
lotus @ 20
Thanks. I appreciate the support. I shoulda been out the door ten minutes ago. It gets so nasty hot here so I am off to best the sun before it bests me. Take care – FM
The NY Times/CBS poll today has Bush at 36% which is the same as last months.
the generalized Bush poll numbers are fluctuating around in the low 30s although in some particular areas they can be higher . . .
And that makes me nervous about what we DON’T know at this point.
Theme of the whole ballawax, isn’t it?
I have a friend whose husband is a reservist in Naval intelligence. This is, actually, an intelligent guy who ditched his Ph.D. diss half written because his advisor was abroad and slowing him down too much and he had already decided to leave academia. His father in law was a pilot and pretty high ranking officer a couple of decades ago. They are all lock-step conservatives.
Enough background. His unit has been called up for duty in Iraq. Understand that this is not where they normally, um, work. Can’t get much more specific, but intelligence units usually specialize in a geographic area in which their members have expertise/language skills, etc. No, this unit is being called up like many others to serve as armed guards on convoys. They don’t have the weapons required, so they are being scrounged from stockpiles of “old” weapons. I am grateful that two days before finding out about the deployment my friend’s husband saw a doc about a nagging shoulder problem and was diagnosed with some serious nerve damage in his dominant arm. Yes, I am happy he has a debilitating problem so he doesn’t get sent to get blown up by an IED.
Of course, the Navy thinks he should go–as well as another member of his unit who is legally blind. That person can see to do what he/she is trained for in intelligence with glasses, but not function as an armored guard. Fortunately, the VA hospital locally to where they would be sent for testing is well allied with a University teaching hospital which does not take kindly to sending people abroad to be “IED fodder.”
Now friend, Daddy, and husband–wingnuts to the end–are all disgusted with the war and Bush. Heck, I’ll take conversion any way I can get it!
JPL @ 26
Thanks JBL. Maybe I was hallucinating – it felt like I might be! I like the poll numbers of the NY Times/CBS better. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on AOL’s part, or another evil ploy.
mjh — yeah, I saw that poll on Bush and didn’t think to check the source. I generally click away as soon as I see his ugly mug before he makes my blood pressure rise.
I took the AOL polls on his performance, though. He was NOT doing well on GWOT, Iraq, Iran and gas prices at all; the poll offered a grade scale A through F, and he was pulling 55 to 60 % “F”. Of course there was the basement dwellers giving him 22% “A”’s across the board.
I mean JPL. Sorry.
A former Marine and I were discussing the Corps callup this morning. Among his comments:
When I worked on military affairs in the ’80s and ’90s, I kept running into consultants and decision makers who had no clue as to how to manage organizations. I could recognize them because they would pontificate on the efficiency of private enterprise and how the military needed to be transformed accordingly. I figured they were just Devil’s advocates…not his agents.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 17
Would that be like this?
[sigh…]
As a National Guard servicemember who got out in 2002 (not IRR out, but discharged out), I’m still nervous when I hear stuff like the USMC news in the WaPost.
On approval polls–pollkatz keeps a running average of approval / disapproval polls; any one poll can be an outlier. You can check out the latest average.
tommy yum @ 24
Well, there’s that . . .
Rayne,
My feelings and experience precisely! I took the survey and scored him an F on every measure!
So what happens to that portion of the 2,500 IRR Marines who refuse to go, either by not showing up or by requesting an exemption or delay?
mjh at 23 — I’ll dig around and see what I can find on that. Thanks for the heads up. :)
Thanks, Prof Foland. I forgot about Pollkatz.
Rather partial to the chart, myself. Bet it was Gallup that provided the outlier (out-liar?) at 46% JAR.
Semper Fi, Christy! One of my brothers was stationed at Pendelton in the ’70s and early ’80s.
OT, but big: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..3;>Alan Schlesinger was on Hardball last night!
What you are describing is an emergency.
No one subject to involuntary recall would have imagined that he or she would be recalled unless this nation were fighting for its life.
Instead, they are being recalled because this administration and the Republi-con Party are fighting for their lives, and they are losing.
It’s all very well to hope for a fair and honest election, but Congress has the power to stop this now. If it doesn’t, it shames itself even further as an institution, and that shame should follow every member who isn’t speaking up.
Chief @ 38
They’ll probably move on to the other 90% “eligible” w/o too much fuss. They’re going to have to walk a fine line.
This must be the last stop before the draft. Any action taken wtr Iran will have to be an air campaign or done by proxy.
Are there any democratic “client” states in the middle east willing to attack Iran? There is?
Christy, you’re welcome! Thanks for the great posts! I rely on FDL for the real news.
You know, y’all, I predict that when Hopie wakes up and then DrT gets home and wakes up, they’re gonna be telling tales that’ll make us say, Wow, and I thought I was pissed Wednesday morning!
jake at 42 — absolutely correct. The ready reserve was designed to be available in case of dire national emergency — as in attack on our soil or catastrophic event. It was not designed to be a CYA pool for Presidential craptastic lack of planning and idiocy. But I despair of the Republican-controlled Congress stepping up and doing any oversight of this — especially given that they’ve scheduled a grand total of something like 15 days (or less) of legislative session between now and the end of the year. Pathetic.
When this is all blowing up in our faces it will be Democrats/The Left/Elites/The Liberal Media that take the blame. Republicans will convince a majority Dems underfunded the military before Bush’s tenure, hobbling him in his crusade. Media undercut the war effort, delaying victory and draining military resources. The Left damaged morale at home and abroad, reducing support and combat willingness of our troops and allies. It’s natural for people to refuse blame and responsibility for their mistakes. The public bought into Bush’s war. His mistakes are their mistakes, his misjudgments are also theirs. Dems should be careful what they ask for. Should they win in ‘06 and ‘08 it will be their task to clean up this mess. However, try unbreaking a shattered drinking glass. The damage is done and you’re left with a puzzling pile of sharp, dangerous broken pieces impossible to reassemble. All you’ll get for your effort is frustration, cut fingers and failure. Plus fingers point at what a fuckup you are in fixing things, no matter the futility of the chore. There are no brilliant ideas or policies that’ll fix this, nothing possessed by either Democrats or Republicans to make it go away. But it will assuredly, one way or the other, be the Democrats shouldering the blame.
All snark aside, does anyone know the status of the proposal to, in essence, permanently federalize the National Guard? The last that I’d heard was that it was unanimously opposed by all the governors, but then Congress went into recess. It all just seems like yet another back-door way to call even more former military back into active federal service.
Tin foil hat time.
They want to overstretch the military, and they want to see a Taliban resurgence in Afganistan. They know all this is happening.
They’re readying a permanent draft and a police state, and making sure there are enough functioning terrorist breeding grounds out there to justify it.
They’re not that stupid (the Deciderer excepted). Like all the rest of their incompetence, it is actually criminal neglect, with far darker ends driving them than we suspect.
Up until now I hadn’t really considered the thought that I might be recalled to active duty. For the Navy and Marine Corps you don’t “retire” at 20 years. You only retire after 30. That means that I’m not really retired, I’m in the Fleet Reserve (FR) pulling down a retainer check for another six years.
There have been instances when people have been brought back onto active duty from the FR but only for very specific instances. Like when we brought one of the battleships out of retirement over 15 years ago. There weren’t enough people who remembered how to work the big guns so they asked people in the FR if they wanted to come back for a couple of years to train the youngsters. They had a ton of old Chiefs volunteer.
But after three and a half years of war I’m thinking that they milked every last drop out of the Active Reserves and Individual Ready Reserves and they might start pilfering the Fleet Reserve. What a sh***y thought to start the morning.
Christy – glad Fi is feeling better – that means you will, too! Hope that both of you will be able to get in a nice nap this afternoon.
Have been feeling a little like you – a niggling sense that something is going on. Because this is the Bush administration, the possibilities are more than a little scary.
Logic tells me that bringing back a draft would be insane, but insanity does not seem to be something that rules out an idea for these folks.
Could this be some kind of build-up for a possible confrontation with Iran? Eventual ground support for an aerial strike? I’ve seen nothing that indicates that Bush has taken the Israel-Hezbollah engagement as a reason not to try air strikes against Iran. All his talk about how this was advantage: Israel was just so far from reality that it worries me vis–vis Iran and/or Syria.
Could Rummy have been effectively neutralized as SecDef, but left in place for PR purposes? Could someone else be calling the shots? And who would that most likely be? Maybe that’s what Dick Cheney is up to in seclusion on Wyoming…See? Scary thoughts.
My daughter’s friends just started Year 2 at the Naval Academy…these kids will graduate in 2009 as officers in either the Marines or the Navy, and I pray they will not be sent to the Middle East.
Welcome back Christy, glad to hear Fi is feeling better. Dealt with lots of health issues with my daughter, so I know what that stress feels like.
Both my dad and brother were Marines, & I’m sure they are not happy about what is happening to their beloved Corps. Well, my brother anyway, my dad has long since entered wingnut land.
quite a read christy, my heart is heavy for what this president has done to our military
I made a post on the previous thread which i knew I would cut and paste to the next, but it is more apropos then I thought it would be
Hackett has no website or blog I can find but I want to give him my support, some money, and plenty of encouragement.
This must be the last stop before the draft.
I wouldn’t doubt it, tommy. What room is there for possible other measures Rummy could slide in between A and B? I can’t think of one, but maybe somebody else around here has an idea?
As, of course, Chimpy and Deadeye reel around insulting (at the least) more countries and cultures than we can name in 5 minutes, and not even aware they’re doing it . . .
Bush is breaking the military because he’s too weak and gutless to admit he has fucked up. Our soldiers pay for his ego with their lives.
Phoenix Woman @ 41
HERE’S HACKETT!!! http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..ardball-2/
Re: Christy at 14 (language specialists):
I know a young Ameican man, highly educated, poltically conservative, based in DC, fluent in Arabic owing to his dad having been “stationed” in Egypt by his corporate employer while the son was in high school. After 9/11 the son applied to the feds for a translation job. Turned down. One of the interview questions: “What were you doing in Egypt?” Or maybe it was his Asian looks – his mom is American, his dad, a naturalized US citizen is of Asian/Central American background.
Makes you wonder how they’re going to get into the heads of Al Quaeda. Telepathy?
The using up of the US military is a blessing in disguise.
We have a bloated military which has way too many toys and this makes it easy to send troops all over to do mischief.
Hopefully, though doubtful, when new procurement bills come to the floor there will be a debate and some with a brain in their heads will realize that this huge military is destroying this country and consuming all the resources.
Why do we need nuke subs cruising around under the oceans with hundreds of nuclear tipped missiles? Why do we need these carrier groups which allow this country to park a fleet close to almost any nation and rain shock and awe at whim.
If we could only shrink the military and use our resources for HUMAN needs we might save the nation and the world. But if we continue to feed the military there is little hope of peace and little hope of meeting the human needs.
Shrink the military til it can be drowned in a bathtub!
I have this insatiable longing for the day when we have a new President of the United States. Someone who speaks clearly and intelligently and effectively. Someone with a healthy beating heart and a fully functioning brain. Someone with no mommy/daddy issues to play out on the global stage. Someone who cares about Americans and our families and our jobs and our cities and our states. Someone who recognizes competency and honors our Constitution.
I long for the day when we never ever have to hear Chimpy’s voice again. Never. Ever. Charlie Rose, are you listening?
BTW, Christy, very glad to hear that your little peanut was only suffering one of those seemingly unending string of viruses that kids get. So glad to be through that phase with my kids; you only have about 4-5 years, maybe 8 more batches of this stuff to go. [sigh] Wishing you lots of rest before the next wave.
I wish I could be sympathetic, but I can’t. No, not about the Marines on IRR; my stepson is Army and could easily be called up just like these IRR folks if it gets much worse.
I just can’t find sympathy in me right now for a certain ‘winger father, who said some rather thoughtless things while my stepson was in Iraq — and whose son enlisted in the Marines this summer. I hope and pray his son is safe, but I hope to hell his father stews not only for his son but for the stupidity of his two votes for Bush.
I’m just not that good a person; I’m not ready to make nice, as the Dixie Chicks so ably put it.
tommy yum @ 44
this is the draft, this is phase two
I reported on this yesterday
phase one of the draft (redeployment) is now ineffective, phase two begins in october, calling up members who have fulfilled their contract
phase three will be a draft with exclusions only wealthy can meet…it will have the illusion of being even handed qualifications but they will not be even handed
like college which more and more middle class can no longer afford, the poor cannot afford
they can’t afford phase four, a random draft cuz then an impeachement would surely follow
Drat, I’m blanking out DC faces here — he’p, please:
If the Dems take over House and/or Senate in November, who’s in line to chair those Armed Forces committees?
meta @ 58
I think we’re all having those same hopes and dreams…
lotus – Carl Levin is the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Ike Skelton in the House.
lotus —
Carl Levin, Ranking Minority Member Michigan
Edward Kennedy Massachusetts
Robert Byrd West Virginia
Joe Lieberman Connecticut
Jack Reed Rhode Island
Daniel Akaka Hawaii
Bill Nelson Florida
Ben Nelson Nebraska
Mark Dayton Minnesota
Evan Bayh Indiana
Hillary Rodham Clinton New York
The using up of the US military is a blessing in disguise.
DefJef, maybe I’ll get it together to read the rest of your argument in a minute here, but for now, I’m so stunned by your first sentence that I can’t yet. You’re gonna be hard put to convince me that this statement is headed anywhere but into mindlessness.
Okay, maybe I’m ready to try it now, we’ll see . . .
(Thanks, Anne and Rayne.)
Stuck in moderation again…
Just can’t wait to get out of moderation again…
The stuff I love is ranting with fdl folks,
And I can’t wait to get out of moderation again…
W/apologies to Willie, and whoever is moderating.
[You’ve been freed! You’re On the Road Again! Just re-load your browser]
Mornin’ all. Is the coffee back on late-nite? Ditto the Hackett praise. Sunday a.m. pundit?
So in addition to snatching up newly returned 172nd Stryker folks, “Welcome Home Daddy” signs still crayon-fresh, now we are stealing away Marines who have fulfilled their duty, to throw them back into hell.
Nice family values, Repubs.
To DefJef @ 57 – Just because this President does use our military properly doesn’t mean that we don’t need our military. I’ll agree with you that some of the big money projects that are in project development aren’t needed but others are.
The Russions may have rust buckets for subs right now but watch out for Chinese and Indians. They really are closing the gap with us in terms of technology. It may not be soon but they will eventually start closing the gap at a faster pace. Those aircraft carriers that rain shock and awe for the wrong purpose in accordance with this administration also held Suddam in check for 10 years by enforcing the no fly zone with minimal loss of life.
There is a need for a strong military. But can’t get rid the this administration that abuses that military soon enough.
Nope, DefJef, ya didn’t convince me. (Even before you stole Grover Norquist’s line.)
#57 Lou Costello says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:12 am
Did I do something wrong? It’s only a C&L link about Hackett on Hardball and everyone should see it. Pure Poetry!
Where’d we stash that hamster chow?
Lou
Auto-mod is feeling cranky this morning.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a hostage situation.
The President is holding our troops, members of our families, in Iraq and is refusing to release them as long as he is president of the United States. He is demanding more money and more troops to keep our family members alive.
What is the appropriate civilized response to this situation?
Lou C, hang in. Just happened to me too (six words, no links).
Bush, Cheney, Rove. Back-door draft. No guts; no glory.
No one could have anticipated going through all that gear, all that fast.
But that’s what we pay Bush & Co. to do – plan.
No one could have anticipated this war of choice going on for all these years.
But that’s what we pay them to do – plan.
No one could have anticipated enlistment rates dropping as the war dragged on.
But that’s what we pay them to do – plan.
No one could have anticipated the need for Arabic linguists in the military.
But that’s what we pay them to do – plan.
No one could have anticipated the descent into civil war in Iraq.
But that’s what we pay them to do – plan.
Not a pretty picture, and it kind of makes you wonder what they’re not planning for right now.
#62 If they institute the draft laws I believe that in order to avoid service you actually have to be a theology major. Other College students can finish the term that they in but that’s it. I haven’t read the draft law recently but that’s my recollection.
Good Morning All,
this was the very thing chez cbl was discussing this morning – along with the combat readiness
for those who did not go all the way through Christy’s update link – there are ZERO, NADA, ZIP combat ready units avail for deployment currently in the US
yet these thugs are still polling better than Dems on Defense . . .hmmm . . .it’s as if those charged by the Founders with Transparency and Accountability were busy propagandizing and distracting – guess we can ask them all about that – when they return from Boulder !
mad props to Professor Foland, jake, and egregious – excellent point on values
If they institute the draft laws I believe that in order to avoid service you actually have to be a theology major. Other College students can finish the term that they in but that’s it. I haven’t read the draft law recently but that’s my recollection.
Verdad? Who knew seminaries had such pull in DC?
Oh Peterrrrrrrrr . ..
What’s sad is that adding 2500 more troops won’t make a bit of difference to what is happening there. They need about 100,000 more troops to do what they say they want to do. Only thank God that won’t happen because that will finally awaken Americans to the horrors of what’ going on over there.
How do we deal with this dilemma y’all? On the one hand, we should shut down this “anti-war” meme – why did we not see protests about Afghanistan, or the Yemen drone strike if we are just anti-war hippies? Cuz anyone who cared to notice saw that Iraq was NOT connected. On the other hand, so many people still think there IS a connection, and since they see the Iraq part going so terribly, they say the entire GWOT is going poorly as well. Ironic, yes?
It’s not about troops. Iraq is not about overwhelming them with our military presence. It’s over. Iraq is over. No amount of money or personnel or American prodding or pushing or electing will change that. There will be no “winning.” There will be no “mission.” Iraq is FUBAR. My heart aches for the unrelenting sadness these families will bear.
Iraq is FUBAR.
Fuck yeah, Hackett rocked. Too bad he got pushed out.
THX percy and lotus, I’m just tryin’ to spread the love…lol
DefJef:
I somewhat agree with you. But for the next two years the human cost of this failed policy and these miserable decisions will take a terrible toll.
When we get a new president with a realistic foreign policy, there exists a possibility for a “shrinking” if the military that makes sense. Certainly combating non-nation state actors globally doesn’t need a huge conventional military force. It needs beefed up HUMINT and special forces.
JPL @ 79
you miss my point
they will write laws to make believe the middle there will be deferments..the middle class will go along so their kids don’t have to serve
then they will change that law so the middle class kids do have to serve
chess
Sorry you all are having filter trouble – I must be the only one “on duty” this morning, and I also have to, um, work for a living…*g*
The expert on avoiding the military is our illustrious Vice-Hypocrite Cheney. Who obtained five deferments during the Vietnam War. And who said he “had other priorities” for not serving in the military at the time Uncle Sam was calling up just about everyone else.
DefJef – I think the problem is that you have to have a military that is prepared to fight whatever type of war or engagement presents itself, and you never know what that’s going to be. Clearly, whatever vision Rumsfeld had for a streamlined military, heavier on technology than shoe leather, it was the wrong kind of military for the kind of war we are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are paying heavily for that. It didn’t help that he began to make these changes knowing we were going to war.
Yes, we know that change does not come easily to large institutions like the military, and that there would be resistance to change no matter whether that change is good or bad. But I think we are seeing what can happen when you allow dramatic institutional change that ignores a host of things that we cannot foresee or control.
When the nations of the world agree that all future disagreements will be fought and settled using only video game technology, we can keep the National Guard around for domestic emergencies, and conduct war from the Game Room at the Pentagon.
They need about 100,000 more troops to do what they say they want to do.
cathy, I disagree. Any number of U.S. additional troops will just make things that same multiplier worse. What they said they wanted to do has nought to do with force or more force. They announced a political-diplomatic objective and went after it with an inept military tool. They are stupid. More force won’t help them wake up tomorrow smart.
This is somewhat OT but not really, as it deals with our president’s off-the-charts vapidity and cluelessness. Somebody somehow managed to photograph Bush’s podium notes at his last press conference. Bob Harris (at HuffPo) gives an interesting parsing of the notes after he Photoshopped it to make them more legible.
It would be funny were it not so pitiful. Behold, our president has no clothes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..27789.html
hackett was spot on concerning this and you really have to watch the video on crooks and liars
his point is perfect
our military has accomplished everything the military can accomplish, they can’t do more and there is no reason to ask them to occupy Iraq, they are not an occupying force
you HAVE to watch hackett, he is incredible
No probs, ModAnne — it’s quick liveable-with.
Inside the Pentagon, July 6, 2006 — A memorandum circulated last week on Capitol Hill by a House Armed Services subcommittee chairman, Joel Hefley R-CO is raising concerns that Army units training at home are so short on equipment and personnel that they are unready if needed urgently for Iraq, Afghanistan or potentially any other crisis that may emerge domestically or abroad.
The June 26 document, issued by readiness panel head, Rep. Joel Hefley (R-CO), suggests the Army has already deployed units to Iraq and Afghanistan officially rated at the lowest levels of readiness.
Re the sad state of the broken armed services: Bush is like the 4-year old spoiled brat who gets an expensive new toy on Christmas. By the end of Christmans day it is broken and ignored. On to the next toy (read “war”).
on a related note:
the robbing Peter to pay Paul continues unabated:
In a Yahoo news article on National Guard non readiness for 06 Hurricane Season
“To counter equipment shortfalls caused largely by the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the Guard has borrowed more than $500 million worth of equipment from the active duty military to restock its units.” (emphasis mine)
Christy,
Thanks for the morning jolt! I enjoy reading your first post every morning after my morning meeting because you take an issue, thouroughly examine it and put it out for thought and discussion. Clear, concise, to the point.
I wish more Americans who are real fence sitters could/would/should read your posts (especially those you end with “Had Enough?). You always seem to prove that the progressive heart is smart, patriotic, and caring, much to the contrary of the music we so often hear from the Right Wing Wurlitzer.
Thank You.
I don’t think it will matter how many troops you send into Iraq. Strange as it might sound, people don’t like their country being occupied by a foreign power. Shoot. Never mind foreign occupation. I’d just like to see Texas try to occupy Oklahoma. And if they tried, I’d be planting IED’s.
Rayne @ 40
I also read an article yesterday about Bush poll results which discussed one recent poll that had him in the low 40’s – supposedly as a result of the foiled terrorism plot in the UK. I do believe it was good old Gallop – (whose polling used to drive me crazy during the 2004 prez race). However the article made it clear that every other poll had him in the 30’s.
I agree that many are still not connecting the dots – which I have to think ties into the whole authoritarian thing.
Anybody hear anything about Air Force reserves being called for duty in Iraq? I have a nephew man who was recently, he was trained as a reserve MP, he was called for 10 days desert training and would be in Iraq for now, save that he sprained/broke his leg in the process of moving his newlywed back to her folks’ place.
NeoJoe at 96 — wow, thanks. This is one of those issues that need so much more discussion, don’t you think?
‘Nephew man.’ Lol, sorry ’bout that, replaced one phrase w/another and didn’t re-check adequately.
I totally agree that sending 100,000 troops will not end this war. What I meant was that sending 100,000 troops will help to bring some quieting of the slaughter that is going on right now. And that is what Rummy wants to have happen until the elections are over. But once they are removed, the fighting will start back up and nothing will be any different than it is right now.
OK,99
The opportunity to send enough troops to Iraq in order to establish civilian security passed a long time ago. I think it goes back to Fallujah (sp?). Now I agree it is too late because the nature of the insurgency has changed. Not only is it well organized, but it is highly assymetrical, as all such operations are. Translated to quantitative terms, a guerrila/insurgency/terrorist force may need to be counterbalanced by as many as 10 times as many conventional troops. They choose their targets, their time of attack, and mode of attack. All we can do is respond and react, usually too late. That is because we lost the one opportunity we had to establish a security infrastructure after Baghdad was taken.
I think every second looey who comes out of West Point has learned this.
Shinseki’s number of 300,000-500,000 was rational, but he was mocked and pushed aside. Tenet got the Medal of Freedom, Shinseki got the boot. Who is the real patriot, the one who lied or the one who told the truth?
Underlying my comments is my total disagreement with our being there in the first place.
I have used my ammo for the day. Back to work.
Chief @ 38
You end up like Lt Ehren Watada, charged with contempt of the president (boy am I in trouble), conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman, and missing movement.
http://www.thankyoult.org/
Ehren Watada is a patriot.
In light of the great need for new equipment for those who have been put in harms way, why is the civilian leadership at the pentagon still budgeting billions of dollars for development of star wars technology? Again, where’s the oversight & where’s the outrage.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/…..pdate.html
I want to see hard hitting ads that help citizens connect the dots so they can understand the impact of the bad choices that have been made.
Good morning, friends.
Great post Christy, thanks for doing the research. Hope you’re doing ok.
I agree with lisadawn that we need a strong military but we can’t have that with this administration, who feel that the military is the answer to every problem. Our poor defenders have no opportunity to have any peace, any renewal, any ongoing training. This is institutional abuse. I have very little military in my family, but I respect those who choose to serve and support our troops in missions which truly are important to our country. Iraq just appears to be a pointless pissing contest; I’m never surprised when I come across comments from soldiers expressing disgust with how they have been treated and manipulated.
Woke up super early with a headache, so lying down for awhile. So great to be able to read you again, my dear friend, have missed these morning chats.
hug
Good morning Christy, wonderful post.
quick anecdotal story about this call up…
An ex-lover of mine got called up, explained that he was disabled by a post-service stroke. Was told must report, etc. Finally, was released when he went into the station (recruiter’s?) and they realized that a pilot would have difficulty when he can’t use the left side of his body.
Yet another thing about this administration that I’m beyond disgusted about.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 103
Christy, if you’re talking about post 96 (and not neojoe) I looked for a copy of the actual memo online, but couldn’t find it.
Wonder if that’s classified or obtainable through a different channel?
Why in the hell aren’t our representatives rolling it up and smacking repuplicans on the heads with it?
lotus @
81
Any discussion of the draft law is just that – a draft (and a rough draft at that). Believe me, if it got to the point of bringing back the draft, the hearings and markups of the authorizing bill will be a sight to behold. Every story of Vietnam-era deferments will get hauled out and hashed out, and in the end I believe deferments will be few and far between. Likely there will be some kind of alternative service required to go with one.
Meanwhile, my theological degree gives me little comfort when I think about the draft . . .
Ehren Watada is a patriot.
A-MEN.
anyone watching chimpy and Rockey Vaccarella on CNN?
Some good news. Perhaps. With a view toward the 2008 Democratic primaries for the 2008 presidential contest, A Des Moines Register poll gives John Edwards a 30% lead over Hillary Clinton’s 26%. This poll appears have mostly to do with Iraq.
lisadawn82 @90
One of the MAIN problems is the military and how it sees and defines its mission.
We don’t fight on battlefields as we did in the 19th and even 20th century. Never again will armies battle on battlefield.
All military actions.. such as Iraq and Vietnam involve killing civilians. How about when we dropped the nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? or fire bombed Dresden to rubble.. or Falujah?
This is nonsense… and n the end does not produce anything but hatred by the survivors of those who terrorize with their shock and awe.
We need to defend out shores… not our coproations’ interests abroad. Our military is 10 or 20 times as large as it needs to be to defend our shores. It is a strike force.
By the way our 1/2 trillion dollar militay could not even defend us on 9.11. All the high tech radar fighter jets and the like.. to quote Rcihard Clark… “utterly failed” on that day.
We have been stuffng the pockets and the egos of the military establishment for 6 decades. It is time we rethink this thing of american power and the military which is killing us.
No nation can conquer our nation, occudy us and subjugate us. It just cannot happen.
What can happen and what will happen is mischief and so called terrorism… much of whch can be prevented by good police work. We were attacked on 9.11 (supposedly) and 264w people were killed and a few buldings crumbled. We have now spend hundreds and hundreds of billions and wasted thousands of lives on the so called GWOT. This is completely insane.
Fundamentalists may want to convert the infidels… but don’t think they could destroy us or even be successful in conversion. There is nothing to fear except fear itself.
Twolf, I did, and man do I regret it.
OK kiddy, I’ll take that as good news indeedy. Thanks!
My brother just retired from the Air Force after serving his 20 years (I’m so glad he didn’t join the Army or Marines). But now I’m worried about the decisions my sons (7 and 10) will face in a few short years.
I fully expect us to be in Iraq and Afghanistan eight years from now and probably Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, too.
Maybe I’m just being a little melodramatic here, but I don’t want my sons to die before I do.
Especially not for a lie.
beard5 @ 118
To think, he drove all that way for that?
twolf1: “I watch so you don’t have to.”
Do tell.
:-)
IIRC didn’t Bush say before the 2004 election that there would be no draft if he was elected?
Did you notice the look on Bush’s face when Rocky started talking? I swear it looked like “Damn, I wanted to go back inside and now this guy starts talking” before he put back on his canned-condescending-smile. Blah.
How much of this war is about oil, and how much is about this kind of using up military supplies? I suspect a large part of the war is about getting control of Iraqi oil. But another, not insubstantial, part is about the kind of materiel depletion discussed here. Remember that every bullet fired and every rocket expended needs to be replaced by a US contractor, and that these contracts are almost purely profit. Humvees which wear out in 4 years are twice as profitable to the Humvee corporation as Humvees which wear out in 14 years.
My brother just retired from the Air Force after serving his 20 years (I’m so glad he didn’t join the Army or Marines).
Perhaps you missed comment #102.
I heard on Al Franken show that the Army is provided with the up to date helmet liners but the Marines are not. He has a link to Operation Helmut on his AA website to contribute to providing Marines with the liners. The proper helmet liners cut down on the number of soldiers exposed to close explosions ending up with permanently scrambled brains.
cathy @ 120
Yeah, and let me remind us all about all the other promises made by him… Sheesh. I’d actually welcome a good public debate over a proposed draft, but that would be the last thing the GOP wants right now.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 103
Yes, it does beg for more discussion, more thought and more involvement from those of us that can afford to NOT be in the military. Our military was founded on the premise that it is controlled by non-military oversight (Congress) and based on civilian subscription. I think the Bushie/Neocon/Military Complex would like to see the military completely privatized (blackwater?)and taken out of reach of any Congressional oversight. What better way to do that than wear it out and into the ground by this endless War on Terror….
I am old enough to know this: That Nixon’s conduct forever lowered the ethical expectation Americans have of their presidents. Reagan forever lowered the cerebral qualifications for president. So it comes as little surprise that so many Americans followed this to its natural conclusion and gave GWB enough votes that he could steal two elections. He combines both of the worst qualities of Nixon and Reagan in one lethal package. Republicans as a whole and many independent voters have low standards for leadership.
Meanwhile, my theological degree gives me little comfort when I think about the draft . . .
Hard to imagine you comforted about the draft from any of your here-visible angles, Peterr. Somehow, the national-service element of it that we‘d foresee as necessary and sensible probably won’t get far with to “Congress,” should events force them to deal with this before November, whaddya bet.
Three hundred billion dollars spent, and they can’t resupply the military? What? Did they fire or overrule the quartermasters?
Rushton, excellent point! How do we get back to a model of intelligence, states(person)ship, and integrity?
ZenNurse
The term “strong” military is meaningless. We need to be able to defend our nation from the threats which present.
This means we need to also work to have fewer enemies who would even consider a military adventure.
Hardly any nation, except ours and lately Israel and perhaps Pakistan is trying to seize and or control land outside their own borders.
We project our force to for the benefit of our corporate interests and not those of the people.
Even if you consider something like petroleum and need of the people because it runs our economy, we could have ensured a supply of oil with more cleve economic and political means rather than spend the trillions of dollars to grab it by force.
How about simply buying what we need from other nations? Why do we always have to go in and take it by force, or impose a pupet to do our bidding. Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman, by John Perkns. He pretty much lays it out.
Carrying Rushton’s point just a bit further, this could become a strong rallying point on every issue, military, environment, economy…
Democrats will raise the standards for leadership. And that will make us all more secure.
Nixon worked to eliminate the military draft for the sole purpose of capturing the 18 year old vote.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 17
I agree with you about the rumbling and the grumbling. This isn’t privates dissing the chow in the mess; it’s majors and colonels and generals who’ve got an understanding about the difference between tactical decisions and strategic decisions. BushCo is trying to deal with Iraq tactically while having no strategic vision at all – and if your butt is the one on the line for that kind of “leadership,” you’re gonna be pissed. At least.
Watch Murtha. Watch Warner. Watch the Intel committees, as well as the Armed Services folks. I’m sure they’re hearing more from the generals in closed session and in private briefings and in personal conversations than we’re seeing in public, as if what’s public isn’t bad enough.
Folks, that whirlwind isn’t a dust storm – it’s a firestorm, and it’s coming this way. When it explodes into public discussion, Murtha, Skelton and others like them are going to need support when the right wing blowback puts targets on them. Ike Skelton is on the right track, and he’s gonna need help if he keeps asking hard questions like those noted by FiredUp Missouri.
(And I wouldn’t be surprised if a couple of the military folks are privately briefing committee members like Ike, telling them “Please ask me about X, Y, and Z. I can’t say much, but I’ve got to say something, and say it in public. I can’t volunteer it, but if you ask, I can’t refuse to answer.”)
with
to“Congress,”I don’t comment well when distracted, sorry. I put Congress in quotes because I really meant “the Repugs running it” — but now that I look again, that’s too subtle for even its author to follow.
Squirrel-flowah here, and hushin’.
So much catching up to do, so little time.
Rushton @ 130 nails it exactly.
We expect more from our leaders.
And we deserve more.
Yeah, Christy, I’ve had enough.
Dr. Bong @ 122
well, if you’re not familiar with the story. a guy drove from Louisiana in a replica FEMA trailer to give bush a message. That message turned out to be something like this: Mr. Bush, don’t forget about us. Thank you for the FEMA trailers. I wish you could be president for 4 more years. Now may I eat the peanuts out of your shite? (I made that last part up).
Anyone else that watched care to add anything?
Blll White @ 125 has it pegged. Way is money.. the military is money.
Every military dollar spent, except for military pay and medical treatments ends up in the coffers of corporations.
Our military budget is all about making corporations fat. The war thing is just a smokescreen.
News conference regarding attempts to remove HoJo from Democratic registration in New Haven to take place at 11 am today.
Source:
http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/frontPage.do
“Secretary of the State Susan Bysiewicz has called a press conference for 11 am today (Aug 23) to discuss “Senator Lieberman’s candidacy, as well as the efforts of other petitioning parties seeking to get on the ballot for statewide office.”
It’s in room 104 of the State Capitol, in case any of you are within striking distance.”
DR. Bong – maybe you saw this OT article already but I’ve been saving it for you for a couple of days:
http://www.poststar.com/articl…..522491.txt
shorter guy from LA: “Thank you Sir, May I have another?”
?
DefJef @ 141
Nail
Head
BANG
And the “support the troops” mantra is the biggest straw dog is there ever was one. And so easy to paint someone as a traitor who won’t bite.
Does that mean support their mission?
The mission to dominate Iraq?
I don’t support that mission… do you?
twolf!: What is it about that article made you think about me?
:-)
I caught the tail end of the thing, twolf @ 140. Sure would like to know the backstory/choreography of that guy’s appearance. If that lame, orchestrated photo-op is the best the Bushies can come up with for a response to the powerful Spike Lee HBO documentary Requiem, then we all really are in deep doo-doo.
And God help the city devastated next because these bozos—Bush-Chee-knee-Chertoff—and their enablers, the Rubber Stamp Republicans and J-Lie, are still racing pell-mell down the same stay-the-course like lemmings over the cliffside into the pounding surf.
Even scarier, maybe this wasn’t a photo-op for US, maybe it was the puppetmasters staging a photo-op for Bush so he’d think somebody loved him, unlike those nasty Iraqis who haven’t sent a card or flowers at all….
We, the people expect more from our leaders
And we deserve more.
Dr. Bong @ 147
Oh, I dunno. Musta been the ad for Cooper’s Cave Federal Credit Union.
they’re, um, busy
http://www.firedoglake.com/wp-…..0357b5.jpg
3665318c-d4b6-89b3-3694f99e2c0357b5.jpg
Prairie Sunshine – there does seem to be more behind the story. He had a meeting with the mispronouncer-n-chief in the oval office. Sadly, I was on the phone so I didn’t catch what Rockey had to say about it when Kagan spoke with him.
Old Vietnam Marine “grunt” Sergeant here. Father of a Marine Captain (JAG) who’s just finished a deployment in Iraq. The Bush Administration’s actions, in addition to being naive, incompetent and stupid, are criminal as well. Our Marines, as ever, have given everything they have to give and they’ll keep right on giving until they die of exhaustion or are blown to smithereens. But that’s just not fair to them and it’s just not right. If this “war” is so important, if it has to be fought, then it’s time to send the Bush twins to boot camp and to reinstate the draft. If any one of the pathetic, tough-talking boomer-neocons who started this mess had ever spent one night in a foxhole with my friends and me back in 1967, wondering what all those funny noises were out there in the dark, they’d have known better than to subject our young Marines and Soldiers to the kinds of risk they endure from the insurgents and the equally bad abuse they are being subjected to by our own government. Semper fidelis…
new thread
Terry at 152 — thanks so much for your service and that of your son. And thanks for your comment here.
Dr. Bong @ 147
Nemmind that — where’s Glens Falls and how fast can Bong’s laigs carry’m?!
To DefJef at 117 – I never said that we could conquer another nation but should be used as Teddy Roosevelt used them – as a projection of foreign policy. We may never conquer another nation, but we never did, at least not alone. Even in WWI and WWII it was a coalition. It’s only when we’ve tried to go it alone that we’ve screwed the pooch.
As to how the military defines it mission? Well, the services have been trying to transition to responding to smaller guerrilla wars for over a decade. I think that Army, Navy and Airforce got that one right a long time ago.
Also as both Roosevelts ( I know I spelt that wrong, shoot) and Churchill realized a long time ago retreating to your national shores is a losing proposition. We are in a global world and no matter how much you’d like to divorce yourself from the rest of the world it just isn’t going to happen. So we can either engage the rest of the world to head off most the worst crap or get drawn into world situations when we’re not ready.
Also, as far as protecting ourselves here at home most of that really isn’t the role of the military any more, in my opinion. If we properly inspected incoming cargo at ports and checked cargo in airplane we’d go along way towards securing the borders.
There’s a lot more that I’d like to say but I’ve got a meeting to be at in 10 minutes so I’ll have to disengage for now. Look forward to talking to you later.
This is phase 2 or 3. The first phase was the steady drumbeat of information to people like Jack Murtha.
The second phase was the “revolt of the generals”.
Now that both of those flairs have landed with thuds in the desert, it is getting time to start shooting the flairs at the fuel depots.
The military is buckling and there is a huge disaster that they are trying to avert.
But Bush is too busy having “reading competetions” with Karl Rove in order to do anything sensible.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerrepo…../8271.html
-GSD
What Christy at 154 said!
Terry Kindlon,
Welcome to De Lurkville. You will find your voice is welcomed here. Hope I am correct in assuming your son returned from deployment safe and in one piece – Thank you both for your service
twolf1 @ 140
Nope, you pretty much nailed it right there.
lotus @ 154
For some reason, Steve Earle’s “Copperhead Road” just popped into my feeble little mind…
:-)
TerryKindlon at 7:46 am,
Thank you for contributing your perspective. Is your son just home? Is he well? Does he face redeployment?
me to me and others are dead wrong about the draft. Jack Murtha and Charlie Rangell (sp?) are the ones in favor of a draft, which would make americans wake up and realize that they are being lead by madmen. You think GW Bush wants to poke the eye of the 60-70% of the country that thinks he is hopelessly incompetent? Wake up!
BTW, how surprising is it that more Marines aren’t volunteering to go drive around in the desert waiting for their car to blow up? Talk about disgression being the better part of valor…
peace,
jim
And Bush refuses to increase the marines by 4,000 because it would cost too much? Why don’t they cut it out of that ridiculous star wars system.
whatever happened to those rumors i was hearing of a possible military coup taking place in the spring?
was that over Iran and did their temporary move to diplomacy over bombs change that situation?
[ed. by CHS: that one was a step too far. If you have a question on this, e-mail me.]
beth meacham @ 132
Hopefully not: “The battle is fought and decided by the quartermasters before the shooting begins.” -Erwin Rommel
Or, as Billmon recently put it: “Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics.”
terry @152
amen to everything you said.
What DefJef said at 146 re support the troops. If you want to see some of what these guys/gals are up against, check out http://www.anysoldier.com/
I found them after reading a challenge from a (pacifist) military wife. “You say you support the troops? Name one!” I couldn’t so I went looking.
The letters from the troops give a picture of the way ordinary grunts are treated. We hear about the cuts to VA and military widows but we don’t often hear what it’s like on active duty. OMG, they need sunblock, they need sunglasses, they need deodorant, they need toothpaste, they need socks and underwear, they need food, they need letters. Guess all the $ went to buy ‘nucular’ subs, eh?
These guys and gals are there in horrendous conditions following the orders of the Chimp-in-Chief. Because we sort of elected him and (ahem) nobody stopped him. I do not even touch on what is being done to Iraqis in their own homes. ‘Nother topic, no point going there now.
So I try to support the troops from both ends; send them socks and GatorAde and stuff coz they are *really* caught in the middle and *my* govt sent them there, and elect Dems (or *anybody*) who will bring them home from this illegal and immoral war ASAP.
To those of you who were kind enough to ask, thank you, and I’m happy to say that my son, Captain Lee Kindlon, a military lawyer who was deployed as Staff Judge Advocate with the grunts of the Second Battalion, Sixth Marine Regiment in Fallujah between 2005 and March, 2006, returned “home” to Camp LeJeune, NC, in one piece, at 4:07 am on March 28, 2006. His wife was staying with her folks in Franklin, PA, because she was too pregnant to travel, so Lee’s mother and I were there in the dark to welcome him (and, for the second time in his precious life, to count all of his fingers and toes) and the other Marines home. In April Lee’s beautiful son Andrew was born, in May he turned 30 and in June he was discharged from active duty. At the moment he’s down the hallway in my law office, writing a motion or something. I’m sitting here–having just finished reading FIASCO last night, which I highly recommend–wondering whether the lunatics and incompetents currently running my beloved country into the ground are going to try to get Lee, who’s in the reserves, back on active duty. I know, as an ex-Marine, that if they called he’d go without complaint…Hell, I know that if they called me, at age 59.9, I’d go too, but that’s the Marine Corps thing…and what drives me nuts is knowing that the cynical bastards who–for just a few more moments–are in charge, are perfectly willing to take unfair advantage of our patriotism and our powerful devotion to duty to serve their own selfish ends.
Young adults have had better nutrition, as a rule, than their counterparts who grew up during the Great Depression, with the result that they may be physiologically as well off as people with a chronological age 10 years older would have been many decades ago.
Having a few extra years’ experience has its advantages as well. BUT anyone who has children or coworkers in their glorious immortal 20s and who, however fit, has already noticed the subtle changes in vision and other factors that creep in around the 40s [despite the purveyors of “age-defying” substances], knows that extending the draft age to 43 will NOT yield the same physical prowess or agility in the U.S. military contingent as having a much younger force with adequate training, proper equipment for their mission, and good logistical support. Not that we should need to cull our youth periodically through state-sanctioned and -organized violence.
Wanting to draft ever-older people as well as less-qualified recruits (e.g., with intelligence limitations or even criminal records) highlights the dishonesty of the current administration’s intentions: these human beings are being shipped off to the debacle in Iraq purely as warm bodies–a ‘green wall’ of flesh, or classically, “cannon fodder.” Their chances of survival are no better than the IED or sniper lottery of the day, and they know very well that they are likely to be stop-lossed to death.
The fact that many veterans who return with brain damage from head injuries, problems from exposure to depleted uranium, etc., are being denied proper care on their return from the front only exacerbates the fact that the Commander in Chief does not care in the least for those whose lives he signs away to prop up the phony rhetoric and photo-ops.
HotFlash at 169 — the AnySoldier group is fantastic. Our local Democratic Women’s group sent out about 30 huge care package boxes stuffed full a few months ago, and got back some of the most heartfelt thank you letters from troops who received bits and pieces of what we sent.
If they must have this war, these wars, they need to reinstitute the draft. It is simply irresponsible to abuse volunteers like this. For one thing, it’s a betrayal. For another, who would ever volunteer in the future if this is the way they’re going to be treated? This Administration has no compassion for the American people; no understanding of the job they were elected to do. All they have is a comic book foreign policy and an impossible political ideology.
Every American with a yellow sticker on their car that says “support our troops” needs to take to the streets over this one. It is abuse – a broken covenant with our Marines. This is the issue to take to the voters!
JimPreston @ 164
you missed the point, I am for a draft also, I think we would not have gone to war in Iraq if our politicians had slin in the game
and you didn’t read my entire post, I said bush would get impeached if he invoked constriction
you’ve only restated my point of it all
A poster (Steve Duncan) in this thread mentioned the possibility that:
Perhaps a quick reminder to those so easily swayed about Dick Cheney’s actions as Secretary of Defense might be in order:
Apparently, he found these positions so painful in later years that he felt compelled to attack John Kerry for them:
He had ‘other priorities’, as well:
Rushton @
130
Random thoughts on this timely post. First, a number of us predicted that this would happen as early as late summer 2003, when it became clear that the Iraqi’s had not ’surrendered’, as they were supposed to, but simply went underground to regroup. At that point it became simply a matter of arithmetic — as casualties mounted, recruitment and re-enlistments fell — the pool that is the army starts to shrink by attrition. It takes time, but it always happens. The same is true of equipment, which wears out faster. We pay our generals to work this arithmetic and explain it to their bosses. We are supposed to elect bosses who can understand it.
Second random thought: the obvious mining of our land force reserve presents a huge danger to our troops stationed in Iraq. It would only take a real attempt by the Shi’a to interrupt the supply line from Kuwait to turn our mission into a Dien Bien Phu situation. We will not have the troops to rescue them, and they will not have the fuel and other things they need to break out to Jordan or Saudi Arabia. Most people don’t understand how terribly precarious the situation is.
Final random thought: I have a close friend who is one of the persons who sets personnel policy at the pentagon. He’s a smart guy. I had a chance to raise some these issues with him last December, and got the usual demurral. He’s a professional. My sense was that he has just simply tuned out, and is serving his time. It’s very sad. He was one of the authors of the all-volunteer army. I suspect his situation is fairly common.
Here is another fun polling roundup site:
http://www.pollingreport.com/
Enough already! There is no war in Iraq. The war is over. It has been over since “Mission Accomplished”. What we have is an occupation. Occupations are by no means necessarily peaceful affairs, in fact they can be right nasty, but they are NOT WARS. Occupation comes AFTER a war, with the occupier being the winner of the war. The problem is, winning the war is no guarantee that one will be successful as an occupier, and we are NOT being successful occupiers.
Quit using the wrong terms please. It plays into neocon/GOP hands by default whenever you accept their framing. Their framing is wrong! Objectively/factually wrong! We are in the middle of a very costly occupation and occupations almost always degrade military readiness and effectiveness. Almost. Always.
We are merely watching what normally happens when one is involved in occupying a foreign land. This is the rule, not the exception (Occupied Germany and Japan after WWII are exceptions, not the rules of occupation).
calvin agrees with the reddhedd but feels that, perhaps, she pulled a few punches. It certainly shows the true empathy and understanding that the Codpiece-in-Chief has of our servicemen and women. He doesn’t give a shit. You’re a piece of meat, period.
After he is impeached, calvin thinks he should be sentenced to clean up Baghdad, one brick at a time.
I am the wife of a deployed service member. I am thrilled to know that I am not the only one against this war. I am praying for a change in administration with at least some decency.
I am sure there is nothing more I can add to the comments except I have to say this. Rumsfeld has stated that a reduce military force can handle Iraq—well, Mr. Civilian guess you were wrong about that. It is a scandal what has happened to our military.
My other thought is the government cannot treat our military as indentured soldiers. They sign up, do their and should be free, if they desire, to leave. BUT that is not how it works now. So looking to the future how can this change?
The only way is to re-instate the DRAFT. And that brings me to soccer/security moms. The ones that voted for Bush may now have to worry about their sons and daughters, not something they counted on when voting for a guy standing on a pile of rubble.
Deja vu Vietnam re: draft and GI revolt
There is a book/DVD out with the title (approx) of “Yes! No sir!” It is about the massive revolt among branches of the military and the feeder officer training schools during Vietnam.
Against the madmen running that clusterf*ck.
Yes! No sir! We’ve only just begun to see the real story behind defections, desertions, officer fragging, AWOLs, fleeing the US and self-injuries among our increasingly Non-volunteer troops being ground up by Bush, Inc.
Re: Draft. Yes, commenter 164. Charles Rangell, a US Congressional Rep from one of the poorest boroughs of NYC who himself is black, tried to get Universal Draft legislation passed back in 2003 and 2004.
Rangell’s reasoning? You crazy people in the White House — and you crazy white boys — want to play war?? Then EVERYBODY plays; not just my constituents and harvested fodder from US urban slums. Rangell wanted 100 percent conscription; NO deferments; NO excuses; NO class or race differences. Everybody gets a chance to die.
Had Rangell’s universal draft bill passed, don’t you think more so-called “good” Americans would have stared down the US war machine and demonstrated against the Iraq War. Like 3 years ago??
Same squishy Vichy “democrats” — like my senators Schumer and Clinton — who castrated Russ Feingold for his Bush Censure resolution, these same fake Dem clowns also cut Rangell off at the knees.
Who’s side are Chucky and Chilly Hills really on anyway? Like kicking Lieberman’s ass out of the party and setting his traitor ass out for the fire ants?? Mighty mealy-mouthed bleats from Chuck and Hills on Joementum, too.
Check out the story of GI rebellion in ‘Nam (above). And take another hard look at what a universal draft will do FOR the antiwar movement.
The ‘blame the democrat’ theme is all over today’s GOP talking points. Rush and Hammity are calling those who question the President ‘traitors’ and ‘unpatriotic’ – they are setting up for the post-Iraq war rewrite of history in 2008.
You have to remember that Rummy originally wanted to make the military more efficient. That was a good goal. Everyone could agree on that. What was overlooked, what only a few isolated individuals who knew something about Iraq and the Middle East knew, was that AFTER the military battle was over, AFTER victory was declared in the war, no one had a realistic plan for putting the Iraqi nation back together — for nation-building (Bush hated that idea, if you recall), for doing the work that the ancient Romans knew only too well could take years to develop an infra-structure (remember the aqueducts and roads they built?) in a foreign land with a different culture. Asking the military, who weren’t trained to build nations and who did their job heroically in the war, to sort out what needs to be done in Iraq or Afghanistan is truly amateurish; such work was never the military’s job. Bush, Cheney and Rummy were lightweights when it came to thinking about that; the neocons were also “cockeyed optimists” about that. Then there’s the fact that the military never has been trained or equipped for nation-building or fighting against insurgents who wear no uniforms, have no base of operations, blend in with local civilians; our military proudly won the war in its usual heroic manner but the peace and carving out a stable country is not properly their job. To ask them to do so is asking them to do something they can only fail at; we cannot, we can never, blame them for it. We have fought two wars thus far, against Afghanistan and against Iraq. They have stretched our military to an alarming degree (and left us weaker for it, by the way). Neither has had the effect it was supposed to and the objective (I think the military is trained to think of objectives and the missions to achieve them) and their missions haven’t been achieved. So, unless Bush & Co. is willing to create a selective service draft, which might just turn off the electorate (not sure of that), any war will be more than a disaster; it will be a debacle; it will resound with failure. Turning on selective service draft is a very chancy step. Bush might consider it, but it might just mobilize the Democrats so they really understood how desperate the situation is.