
The family of a 13-year-old Iraqi boy after he was killed by gunfire during a pilgrimage to a Shiite shrine on Sunday.
The past couple of days have been relatively peaceful in Iraq — for example, only a couple of dozen people have been reported killed each day in and around Baghdad, about half the recent average. Of course, it’s taken extreme security measures to achieve even that modest goal, as the New York Times noted yesterday:
Rooftop snipers and mortar fire killed 20 people and wounded 300 others as they walked through religiously mixed neighborhoods in Baghdad on Sunday to commemorate the death of one of Shiite Islam’s holiest figures, an Iraqi Health Ministry spokesman said.
American and Iraqi officials had been planning security for the pilgrimage for months, trying to avoid the huge loss of life during the pilgrimage last year, when more than 950 died after rumors of a suicide bomber caused a stampede on a bridge packed with pilgrims.
. . . But by early Sunday morning, rival groups were exchanging gunfire on Baghdad’s streets, officials and residents said, as processions of pilgrims, segregated by sex, ran into apartment blocs and under highway overpasses for cover.
. . . The American military released a statement late Sunday that seemed to play down the deaths. “Iraqi military and civil leaders provided a comprehensive security plan to ensure there would be no recurrence of violence that marred last year’s event,” the American statement said. “As a result, there were no major attacks.”
That’s the kind of chaos that Iraq has developed into three and a half years after Dubya decided to bring them the gift of freedom and democracy, where a score of murders in broad daylight can be written off as minor.
To disagree somewhat with what Christy posted just below, it’s not so much that democratic ideas haven’t had a chance to blossom naturally over there, it’s that they never stood a chance in the crossfire. Saddam Hussein turned the entire countryside into an arms depot in large part to fuel an insurgent war if he was ever deposed, and in the anarchy that followed the U.S. invasion, all of the groups that he had oppressed (especially the majority Shiites) quickly organized themselves into vigilante militias as their way of saying "Never again."
Once the American military proved itself incapable of enforcing order during the post-invasion frenzy of looting, the eventual outcome was clear to all sides — Iraq would continue to be a country ruled by guns and the police who come in the middle of the night. The only question left to be resolved is. whose guns and whose police? Because there’s no way to compromise on that issue, especially after three years of spiraling bloodshed, there isn’t much realistic hope of a political solution emerging no matter what policy the U.S. adopts at this point. In the Washington Post today, Dana Milbank quotes former U.S. diplomat Peter Galbraith (a longtime advocate of Kurdish independence), calling for a U.S. withdrawal:
"If we do what I recommend, there will be horrific sectarian cleansing in the mixed areas, particularly in Baghdad, and civil war," he said. "If we stay the course, there will be horrific sectarian cleansing in Baghdad, and civil war."
This is a nightmarish dilemma for anyone who cares about the ordinary Iraqis trapped in between the armed factions, anyone who feels the U.S. has a responsibility to minimize the deadly fallout of our invasion… and for Democrats trying to restore sanity to our own nation’s governance. Dubya isn’t willing to admit the truth about how badly he’s failed, because he wants Democrats to be the messengers who get shot for delivering the unpleasant news. He’s also trying to drive a wedge between Americans who think the war hasn’t been worth the cost (about 60%, according to polls) and those who want to believe we can still "win" or achieve some part of what we hoped originally (closer to 50%).
As I’ve said for awhile now, I think the goal isn’t to come up with the perfect proposal for what the U.S. should do in Iraq; it’s to change the conversation so that Americans are willing to listen to realistic proposals. For better or worse, the disaster there has become so obvious that even former Bush supporters are almost begging for someone to guide the way.
Imagine an ad, for example, that contrasts the Bushites’ shifting happy-talk slogans against the growing evidence of failure — with each clip of Dubya intoning that "freedom is on the march" or "We have a plan for victory," a superimposed graphic shows the rising tide of U.S. casualties and insurgent attacks. Then a voiceover (or your local Democratic candidate) says:
"We need a new direction in Iraq… to give our troops a mission they can accomplish, or bring them home. Tell the President it’s time for common sense. Vote Democratic on November 7th."
What do you think?
(Swopa appears courtesy of Needlenose.)
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Fitz! Hahahahah….
Hey, no fair!
Ah, Swopa: that “Fitz” was cooooold.
Heh.
Love it. It’s clear and direct. I hope every Democratic candidate uses it.
Adapt to win babies!!!
It’s a great ad-slogan. You could even add on, “Had Enough?” at the end.
Pachacutec @ 3
I figured it was the only way I would ever get one….
There are only a couple of questions left:
What’s the most that we can accomplish (try to be constructive, now) before we leave?
How much of that are we likely to accomplish before we leave?
Things sound so bad that I don’t think we can even provide safe passage to those who want to migrate to enclaves that may provide their families with some protection once we’re gone.
But I’m an optimist.
I think Swopa’s a
fuckinggenius.I’m going to use our SPOTLIGHT function to invite some TM types to pick this up.
Somewhat OT –
I think it makes sense for Democrats in CT to contact the independent party and urge them to make a public statement requesting that Lieberman stop describing himself as an idependent. This would be good for the true independent candidate as it would clear up any confusion about who is the independent in the race. It would also garner a lot of publicity for him.
All the independent party needs to do is call a press conference and inform the media that it is regarding Joe Lieberman’s false labelling of himself as an “independent” candidate.
At the conference:
The speaker should simply ask Joe to cease and desist his inaccurate and misleading use of the term “independent” to describe his candidacy.
Point out that an independent party and candidate exist and it is unfair for Joe to appropriate the name for himself in spite of the fact that he is running in his own, newly created party.
Express disappointment that Joe has once again broken the rules of appropriate behavior, as he did when he chose to run against his own party after having lost the primary.
—
That’s it. Good speech. Good for the independents (gives them publicity), good for the truth, bad for Lieberman.
I think that is a great ad plan and voiceover. Now I want to see someone use it.
Thanks Swopa. You and Christy had perfect timing.
I opened up on my repub friends and family (that’s all I got except for ya’ll) with a gatling gun over the weekend.
Now they’re getting the second clip.
ATTAAACCK! ATTAAACCK! ATTAAACCCK!
Here’s a link to the CT independent party website for your reference:
http://www.independentpartyct.com/contact.php
jeter @ 8
That’s exactly the problem — we don’t know what we can accomplish on our way out until we (1) get a sane government in the U.S. and (2) sit down with our military, the various factions within Iraq, and the neighboring countries for a long, honest conversation about how to keep the whole region from drowning in its own blood.
So I think Democrats’ message to the American people should be, “We’re adult enough to sit down and have that conversation.”
The purpose of the current White Houe communication on Iraq is clearly and purely political. GW Clusterfuck wants to frame the debate on Iraq in terms of the only Iraq issue where he is still competitive politically–should we withdraw our troops NOW. He is adding nothing to the debate- only trying to make sure that it stays on “should we stay or should we go” and doesn’t get into “Is the management of this war a total fuckup from start to finish- which it has been–or “Should congress be providing meaningful oversight- which they surely should.
Dems have NO REASON to allow Clusterfuck to frame the issue- let it be about competence and oversight.
Swopa @ 14
That’s pretty much Hagel’s position too.
The end is going to be so much like it was in Viet Nam. Only worse…….
Swopa –
Where is the good news? I want to read about painted schools and purple fingers and flowers and chocolates.
You bloggers are soooo negative, looking at the body counts and bombings and flag covered coffins and price tags, instead of looking at the good news.
The Decider had deciderated that Freedom is on the March, and we will stay in Iraq as long as he is the Deciderator, and we will bring Freedom to Iraq — even if we have to kill every last Iraqi in order to do it.
The Dems appear to be beginning to get “on message” along these lines. Anyone catch Rahm Emanuel (sp?) on Hardball yesterday? He made the great point that Dems are the only ones proposing alternative strategies for Iraq.
I think “It’s Time for a Change” is the best slogan.
Galbraith’s analysis is spot on. For parallels, look at the difficulty the UN is having getting enough troop contributions for the Lebanon “peacekeepers,” give the lack of clarity of what their mission and rules of engagement would be. No sane country wants to have its troops in the middle of a war zone in which the two sides do not talk to each other, where their principals won’t talk to each other, where one side (or the other)unilaterally violates the cease fire on a daily basis, and where it is not clear whether the troops are there to keep potentially warring sides apart (neutral peacekeepers) or to be extension of one side’s military — which would mean the UN troops would be asked to continue the mission of one of the warring parties (to dismantle Hizbullah, something the Lebanese army and IDF could not do in the absence of a larger settlement). Yet Lebanon is a land of relative peace and quiet compared to Iraq.
If no sane country would commit its troops to Lebanon until these issues are clarified, why would any sane country allow its troops to be caught in the bloody civil war in Iraq in which the same kinds of issues are not even being discussed or acknowledged by the head-in-sand US Government?
Recent bumper sticker sighting:
Swopa, if you have time or the inclination, is a Sunni Kurd mutual defense pact a possibility in Iraq? [1] Sunni’s support Kurds wrt Turkey and Iran, Kurds support Sunni’s against Iran.
[2] Iran, the big winner, dominates Iraqi Shiites as much as they want.
From the perspective of “Real Politik,” that seems the best way to reintroduce the counterweight to Iran and insure ME crude to the world markets.
Can the Kurds get their oil to
the U.S.market?I almost feel guilty commenting this, because it ignores the damage we’ve done, but as you know, the stability of the entire region is in serious doubt.
fahrender @ 17
Unfortunately, I have that feeling too.
In the news today, reports that Iran attacked some Romanian oil platform.
Also the news that Bush, in between making Iraq safe for “dreams” gets his jollies from farting in front of young interns. Christ, that’s more offensive than a blowjob.
Also, rumors that Brett Baer from FAUX NEWS is the latest “Jeff Gannon” on the block, subject of Bush’s cutesey winks and smiles at the last presser.
Oh yeah, and Michelle Malkin was allowed out of her internment camp long enough to carp that the media is ignoring the abducted Fox News reporters because everyone hates Fox.
Well, at least she’s got one part of her thesis right.
-GSD
So good to see more discussion of ending the war on FDL. In DC this September we have the Camp Democracy protests from Sept. 5 to 21, and then following the International Day of Peace on Sept. 21, there will be ongoing demonstrations and civil disobedience. Based on current polling, I guess over half the country should be showing up, right?
Isn’t it time for the Decider to admit that he governs without the consent of the governed? If he honors the will of the people so much, then why is he still here?
DrSinker @ 19
I saw that, and i didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Isn’t he the guy who couldn’t wait to distance himself from Murtha, and who helps shape the Dem candidates responses in for the DCCC — that somehow took foreever to say anything on Iraq? And now that Lamont is getting national exposure for a saner approach, this guy finally discovers Joe Biden! Yeah, he’s a real leader.
JC,
I don’t see the Kurds doing anything but trying to secure their new homeland.
If there is Sunni support it will come from our old pals, the Saudis.
-GSD
“Dems have NO REASON to allow Clusterfuck to frame the issue- let it be about competence and oversight.”
Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree 100%.
Perhaps a plan and a lot more troops right away would have worked. The situation disintegrated. More troops now is not a solution. Bush’s statement yesterday that our “strategic objective” is to help the Iraqi’s build a democracy was total bullshit. That’s not a military objective. Our military is not trained or equipped to build a government. That’s why we have a posse comiatatus law.
John Casper @ 26
Possum commit, hate us
i’m not Swopa (what’s the opposite of hyperbole?) but there’s not a chance in hell that the Kurds would trust the Sunnis. Nor, for less reason, vice versa. The Sunnis are SCREWED. this is the main reason they are so into the insurgency. they have nothing left to lose. they are identified with Sadam’s regime. they ran roughshod over both the Shia and the Kurds. they are the minority. and it’s payback time, baby.
this is a gross over simplification, of course, but it seems to resonate with a lot of what is happening.
Swopa — brilliant! A breath of fresh air, and sanity. Thank you.
Bumper sticker on a Mercedes at the West Hollywood Farmer’s Market: NIXON-No Longer The Worst President Ever
Greetings, Swopa. I’m glad to see you on FDL. I see your “commonsense” meme is getting bigger play; it’s a strong idea that deserves wide dissemination. [Note to FDL folks: Needlenose has killer caption contests.]
rw at 15 — I agree with your political analysis as far as it goes. Would that the political result of electing Dems vs Repubs were the only issue. But there are (at least) two difficult problems: (1) how do we replace one-party government, to get more accountability/oversight/etc? and (2) how do we get the US to stop behaving as the world’s most dangerous bully? If only the first issue mattered, then framing the issue as you suggest would likely be a winner. But if both objectives matter, then we have to engage on the “getting out” issue too. I have little confidence that from where we are in Iraq (near a hopeless quagmire), the nominal Dem leadership would have the courage to face or solve the second issue.
And I also think the President is vulnerable on that issue too, though it would take courage. If one frames the issue as whether his belligerant and exclusively warlike policies have made the country safer or helped reduce the threat of terrorism, I think he’s very vulnerable. I believe that a tough campaign on that issue would not just win for Dems, it would take the Administration and its neocon supporters down and make it politically plausible to address the 2nd, perhaps more important issue.
“What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?”
“Nothing.”
“Are you going to Connecticut?”
“I’m staying out of Connecticut.”
“But you were born there.”
“Shhhhh.”
punaise @ 27
before you squeeze a blivit, put on your waders and raincoat. and hold your nose with your other hand………..
Johnny The Tool lashes out.
Johnny Come Lately McCain is finally cutting the umbilical cord that has gone from George Bush’s ass to John McCain’s mouth.
From Yahoo:
“Republican Sen. John McCain , a staunch defender of the Iraq war, on Tuesday faulted the Bush administration for misleading Americans into believing the conflict would be “some kind of day at the beach.”
Looks like another “cut and run” from Bush Republican.
“Stuff happens, mission accomplished, last throes, a few dead-enders. I’m just more familiar with those statements than anyone else because it grieves me so much that we had not told the American people how tough and difficult this task would be.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ccain_iraq
There are also rumors floating around that Bush is looking to replace Rumsfeld, architect of the the failed Iraq strategy.
Rumsfeld will be gone before the year is over, the question is before or after the election.
-GSD
This is all a result of the Lamont Effect.
McCain also had to put some distance between himself and the nuetered zombie Bush supporter in him that appeared on Meet the Press this weekend.
OT, via Froomkin:
Bush, on Katrina, nearly a year ago:
Today:
“Let them eat commitments.”
GSD –
We likey — more like this, please?
John Casper @ 22
I’m with GSD… any Sunni-Kurd negotiations will fall apart the second they get to “who gets Kirkuk” and the surrounding oil fields.
That’s really the problem for anyone who thinks dividing up Iraq is a “solution.” It may sound okay in the abstract, but the genocide will be in the details.
For example, the most obvious de facto dividing line between Sunnis and Shiites in Baghdad is the Tigris river, but an article I quoted over the weekend notes that a major Shiite shrine (the one they had the pilgrimage to on Sunday) is on the Sunni “side” of the river, and an important Sunni mosque is on the Shiite “side.”
Iraq really was a very mixed society before this war tore the country apart. There’s no way it will divide cleanly.
IMO the only remaining course of action with any remote chance of success would be for Saddam to be found not guilty at trial.
Perhaps we have all been victims of “bad intelligence” from various and sundry “bad actors” (Iran in particular). It wouldn’t be Bush’s fault. After all, everyone was “fooled” weren’t they?. But to our immense credit, we still insisted on due process and a fair trial. And when all of the evidence came out it was clear to everyone that the charges were false.
Then restore him to power ASAP, bring back the Ba’athists, reconstitute the original army, and get the hell out. Saddam himself always maintained that this would inevitably happen in the end.
Absolutely! Bush’s statements that we aren’t going to leave Iraq “as long as he’s President” are, I think, an indication that he (or his scriptwriters, anyway) see the writing on the wall. Iraq is going to end badly, and Bush needs to be able to muster some kind of argument that it wasn’t his fault!
Not that he will be fooling most people, but if he can go to his grave saying the reason we failed is that the Democrats didn’t “stay the course,” at least he can continue to fool himself!
fahrender @ 34
blivit or not, I had to look that one up:
It’s not just the conditions in Iraq and the inaction and horrible way the “War on Terror” has been carried out. A certain portion of the population is seriously indoctrinated with hate and racist views. With the way the White House carries out its bungled policy, that portion of the population feels it’s their duty to preach that vile ilk.
I had the displeasure of reading this thread over at LGF and watched as much of the video as I could stomach (about half). It’s horribly racist and prejudiced and the posters there have no problems with it. Blindly infiltrating mosques to track terrorism? That’s like infiltrating Christian churches to track whacked out pro-lifers who bomb abortion clinics. But don’t tell those people at LGF. The comments there made me sick. This is how the Bush admin is still in power.
GSD,
I’m hearing McCain still lined up with Bush. Yesterday Bush framed Iraq as hard work that takes time and a mission that is not yet complete, and now McCain says “…it grieves me so much that we had not told the American people how tough and difficult this task would be.”
Sounds like a “hard work” talking point re-framed to me, not “cut and run.”
If they finally cut loose Rummy they get to place all the blame on his mismanagement, just like blaming Tenet for bad intel, and then demand that everyone “move forward” and not dwell on the yucky past.
What do you think?
fahrender @ 28
Exactly. And they are not only screwed (politically), but well-armed and have most of the best-trained officers. So they’re not especially inclined to accept going from nearly 100% of the political power to only 15-20%.
A line I nearly used in the post is that if every Democrat in the U.S. had an AK-47 and knew how to use grenade launchers and bury artillery shells in the road, the voting irregularities in 2000 and 2004 might not have been accepted so peacefully.
weeder @11:46
A firing squad for the lot of them. That’s what I think.
Hey, Swopa, I like your idea. Just to give you some idea of how I feel about this destructive administration, here’s the message I sent via Ted Kennedy’s site demanding an apology from the VP, which I also posted at Crooks and Liars:
Kurt @ 46
I meant “Besides the obvious…” ;)
Suggestion:
Rummy will be gutted and tossed on the deck of the S.S. Chimpenfuhrer like so much chum when Rovey determines they need the boost the most.
Bush will then be shocked, shocked at how poorly Rummies leadership was regarded in the military.
McCain is still stuck to Bush and he will still ultimately hew closely to the Bush doctrine, but he will be weasely and offer “straight talking” soundbites, all while still supporting Bush’s underlying mission. McCain in the final analysis wants to keep every Bush voter in his camp.
It won’t work though. He is a loser and besides his wife is on pills and he has a black child and he is mental from Vietnam.
I don’t believe the above bolded comment, but McCain was willing to let those lies get spread by Rove and company and was still willing to hold the Farter in Chief close to his little chest.
-GSD
What was that?
I have no finger on the political pulse and not enough partisan drive (the Republicans only outnumber the Democrats I’m pissed at, 2 or3 to 1, they don’t make me abandon my bipartisan pissedoffedness) to say what will make people think or rethink. The, “we’re the adults and we can have the conversation” aspects may work and I hope they get adopted and do work.
My problem is that I view it all personally and my personal take is that we need to call them on what we are doing. We have sent approx 140,000 American troops to be the Iraqi polic force.
A police force that doesn’t speak the language. A police force that hasn’t been trained to be the police force. A police force that is not trusted and has done nothing to earn trust. A police force that (because of our different cultures) goes around breaking societal laws left and right and that disrespects and attacks the major religion, religious institutions and religious leaders within the devout community. A police force that has no ties to the community and that has either received indoctrination to hate the community or learned through bitter experiences to hate the community. A police force that has been used to side with first these criminal families, then the other, then back again and around the Bush.
A police force that is told:
A)the community it is policing is ALL MILITARY ENEMY, ALL THE TIME and we’re at war not dealing with criminals and you have to search and destroy them all, there are no civilians, rules of engagement are open, you are soldiers at war, and the only way to deal with Arabs is to humiliate them and degrade them and make them fear you, oh and by the way …
B)don’t forget to be the good cop on the beat and give the kids candy.
My personal reaction is that it is ridiculous to even phrase it as a request to give the military a mission it can accomplish or bring it home, because there is no mission it can accomplish.
But I’m a bitter stubborn woman with molars chipped from grinding my teeth these days. My political radar is permanently busted.
And if they just die first, well, they probably weren’t going to vote for me anyway, and you know, I’m just the President. Not a guy who can give an order and get something done.
Unless you want someone kidnapped and tortured.
Galbraith has said, for three years, accept the religious partitioning, create three states, and find some way to cut the Sunnis in on the oil. If US troops remain, they should be stationed in Kurdistan to defend the border with Turkey (from both sides) and to be available if the war becomes something other than civil.
There is an article in the current Foreign Affairss that argues this sectarian division is inevitable. The last century was a century of sectarian division, genocide and forced migration in Europe. The article suggests that we are about to watch in the same thing happen in the Middle East.
Heckuva job, Georgie.
I personally would go for a take off of the military recruiting ads.
The kid shows up, “Mom, I’ve made a decision … yada yada”
Teary eyed mom, looking proud, asks: “You’ve decided to join the military?”
Kid, looking surprised, “uh, no mom, the Iraqi Police Force”
Sunni Kurd
Just by the way, Kurds are Sunnis. You’re really talking Kurd vs Arab.
Your post, Swopa, brought something to mind – I haven’t thought it through at all, but here it is:
Isn’t it time for the Democrats to simply start talking as though George Bush is now irrelevant to the solution to the violence in Iraq? He won’t participate or engage to address real world facts and the problems they pose. So we should stop beating our heads against the wall, collectively as a country, waiting for him to ‘get it’ — and just get on with it.
Such an approach may push Bush to rejoin the real debate, so as not to look sidelined, lame duck, irrelevant. But whether Bush and his administration choose to participate in the discussion or not, the country, led by the Democrats (even though any implementation would have to wait for a power change in Congress), will be moving forward in its public debate to address the problems we confront. Problems that Bush is both unwilling and unable to solve. Everytime a Democrat ‘calls on’ Bush to solve a problem, they indirectly state that he is able, intelligent, and in charge of doing so, and that he has the best interests of the country in mind (he does not).
I happen to loathe the “A New Direction” rhetoric — talk about meaningless drivel. A new direction over a different cliff? WHAT new direction? North? South? East? West? It just might make a difference whether we choose to keep heading over Bush’s cliff, or start in a “new” direction toward an oncoming train with the Democrats, as opposed to starting down a road to recovery. So I’d revise your last voiceover language significantly. Here’s one stab at it:
Of course, I say all this as though there is any actual Democratic leadership willing or able to implement such strategy and tactics. [Occam’s Hatchet’s Diary over at DailyKos right now is brilliant, for example — and all but a handful of Democratic candidates will ignore it, no doubt.] We have corruption at the head of the party in Congress, and I’m speaking of the Democratic Party. Until that changes somehow, our way forward is blocked as a nation.
Mary @ 11:59 am (#51) – Great summary of the problems our folks face over there. I’m not sure I agree with the idea that you can’t impose democracy. I don’t like the idea of trying to, but there have been remarkably few experiments testing that notion, and the results are mixed.
What I am sure of is that we can’t impose democracy on Iraq. The American people were lied to about why we were in this war. They didn’t think we were going there to try to bring democracy to the Iraqis. If they had, they would have said “this isn’t our problem”. Whether you agree with their assessment or not, nonetheless that’s what they believe, and it’s folly to get involved in a long war that requires a major commitment of forces without their support. That’s one of the fundamental political lessons of Vietnam, and the people who run our government simply ignored it.
So, here we are. What do we do? I’m not sure, but I know it isn’t what we are doing. I also don’t think more troops are the answer, both for practical and ethical reasons. The practical ones are obvious – we don’t have more troops to send. The ethical one is that more troops means we’re prepared to subjugate large parts of the country, which is something I don’t want to get in the business of doing.
What that seems to leave us with is getting out as quickly and peacefully as we can.
Sorry about the molars. I notice I’m wearing a pretty grim expression lately if that’s any consolation.
phase one of the draft (redeployment) is now ineffective, phase two begins in october
http://www.marinecorpstimes.co…..051565.php
that’s phase two, calling up members who have fulfilled their contract
phase three will be a draft with exclusions only wealthy can meet, like college which more and more middle class can no longer afford
they can’t afford phase four, a random draft cuz then an impeachement would surely follow
I’m stealing imman’s link from last night, but I think we owe it a look for this discussion (between this on, and the dkos Katrina diary about Beenie, my nerves won’t let me open many more for awhile)
Beautiful Dead Girls
” . . . Sooner or later America is going to lose access to the roughly 20 percent of the total oil imports it gets that come from the Middle East. The foothold in Iraq was an attempt to postpone that day. It looks like it will not work out. The US army is exhausting itself and bankrupting the civilian treasury. Sixty percent of the US public now disapproves of our continued presence there. Internal pressures among the Middle East oil producers themselves — including those on the sidelines of the war — will create additional stresses. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, the UAE, all have peaked now in terms of oil production. Meanwhile, their populations still grow, their internal oil consumption increases, leaving less for export, and the quality of the crude goes from light-and-sweet to heavy-and-sour, with further difficulties for refining and marketing.
If America loses 20 percent of its oil imports — on top of steep depletion rates elsewhere (Mexico, the North Sea), plus political trouble in places like Nigeria and Venezuela — then we can kiss goodbye a whole roster of things like WalMart, easy motoring on the interstate highway system, Walt Disney World, a continued profitable build-out of suburbia, and a diet of Cheez Doodles and Pepsi. I am on record, of course, as not being in favor of these things, but it would be very messy indeed if they all ground to a halt in a few mere months.
We’ve done a lousy job of preparing ourselves to live differently. In fact, the whole thrust of American politics along the whole spectrum has been to keep the current racket going. This is why the only broad discussion now occurring over our energy problems is focused to the point of neurotic obsession with keeping the cars running by other means at all costs. This is true on left as well as the right. The left is lost in raptures of driving around in cars fueled by used french-fry oil. The right is lost in raptures of executive pay packages for retiring oil company executives. We are putting no thought, meanwhile, into how we will grow our food in an energy-scarce future, how we will conduct manufacturing and trade, or how we will heat all the McHouses.”
http://jameshowardkunstler.typ…..ck_nation/
pow wow @ 12:04 pm (#56) – I happen to loathe the “A New Direction” rhetoric — talk about meaningless drivel.
Bill Clinton was on Charlie Rose last night, and his answers to Rose’s questions sounded just like that. “We have to move in another direction”. “We have to do things differently”. I realize these are complicated things, but he was President for eight fracking years. You think he’d have some idea what we could do and could just say what that is in a few short sentences, not just recite some DLC-ish pablum.
If you want to know why the Democrats are what they are today, just listen to President Clinton.
GSD @ 36
I would give a generous share of credit to the retired military personnel who have been speaking out on Rumsfeld’s obstinate incompetence in matters administrative, also.
This is OT.
I found this handy little news direcory courtesy of Blonde Sense.
It lists some major news outlets as being left or right leaning.
Makes it a handy starting point to a lot of major news outlets all in one place.
http://www.newsprism.com/
Athenawise @ 31
You’re only saying that ’cause I finally let you win one…
Mary @ 50
It’s hard to disagree. And personally, my standard for a “mission” would be complying with the Powell doctrine (more than enough troops to achieve the goal with minimal casualties, and a clear exit strategy) — which, as you say, may well be impossible.
But I think (1) we owe it to the Iraqis to at least think seriously about how we can minimize the chaos as/after we withdraw and (2) there’s an important 5-10% of the electorate that might come on board with the Democratic message if we let them down easy rather than make them swallow all of the castor oil in one gulp.
First. let’s commit to finding a new direction based on the real situation in Iraq and the real limits of what our military can do (including the fact that we can’t be the Iraqi police force, which as you say we are now). If after taking a serious look at the alternatives, there simply isn’t anything positive we can do, at least we can walk away with a slightly clearer conscience.
Mary at 51
I think Swopa’s underlying assumption is that you are correct; hence, we’re left with “bring them home.” The phrasing is only a means to force a discussion in which there is only one answer, so that it can get to that point. As rw notes, putting the question directly merely plays to the Rove/demogogue framings.
Busted, thanks a lot.
I’m sure a lot of those better read than I won’t find it 100% accurate, but as you said, it’s a handy starting point.
Ann in AZ,
Wow, you are not crazy, you are courageous! My hat’s off to anyone who begins a letter to the VP these days, “You don’t need the NSA to figure out how I feel. Here it is.” And sends it off.
GSD, That’s what I thought you thought, but sadly, I do not possess EPU’s powers…
pow-wow, Occam’s Hatchett’s diary is brilliant—really winning me over to the Attack! Attack! Attack! theory that I have a hard time embracing. Digby wrote this today in a similar vein:
I don’t disagree with any of that. IMO, democracy is something that, like education and food and freedom to worship and the rule of law, etc. should be shared. Sometimes possible even “imposed” but by nature it is not something that works well as an imposition.
While we had a lot of relatiely religious people that formed this country, they were not homogenous and they primarily came from having a bad experience with, and wanting to escape, religious imposition. Throughout the ME, you have very different situation vis a vis faith. And religion, like it or not, involves a willingness to relinquish certain freedoms.
If I keep going, it will be a long ramble and I have to get work done too, but I read people like Friedman, who have late in the day decided maybe it doesn’t look great, but then rush to say that those who have been pointing this out for a long time still should not have been listened to –
because we are “liberal America haters” who see all positive actions taken by America as “hated imperialism, despised by the left” and yada and yada and yada.
I agree that the battle grounds isn’t Republican v. Democrat; but I’m not even sure if it is neocon v. non-neocon. I think it is pragmatism v. ideology. The ideologists cannot and will not handle real world questions without resorting to hurt feelings huffing. “You guys just don’t like me and for no reason”
It really is about who wants to be the baby – the whining center of adoring attention who’s tantrums are indulged whenever crossed – versus who is ready to move on to big boy/girl pants and live in a world less insulated from fantasy.
imo/fwiw
Ann in AZ @ 11:50 am (#47) – I like it. Let’s hope Teddy can spread it around a little.
Mary 59 — those pictures of beautiful woman are incredibly powerful.
the mission this, a new direction that
all wrong
our troops COMPLETED their mission, they over threw saddam
they are not an ocupying force, they’ve cmopleted their task, they need to be rewarded and brought home
THAT’S the way to frame the discussion, we CANNOT make it look like our boys and girls failed
they succeeded, rumsfeld failed
fahrender @ 29
You wanna real word fo’ dat? If you wanna real word, i’s prolly understatement.
But if’n you don’ min’ makin’ shit up, hypobole wou’d wo’k perfeckly.
BC — pleased to provide today’s neologism.
I give you The Tale of the Red Knight
GSD @ 11:33 am (#36) – If John McCain were in just about any other profession, we’d be suggesting someone check him for signs of psychosis after such a quick change of opinion. Sadly, he’s a politician, so we expect this behavior.
me to me @ 58
Whoa nellie! The jarheads are constantly bragging to us Army types and the rest of America that they have no problems filling their ranks. Someone has some splainin’ to do Lucy!
BAGHDAD, Iraq – The fortress-like compound rising beside the Tigris River here will be the largest of its kind in the world, the size of Vatican City, with the population of a small town, its own defense force, self-contained power and water, and a precarious perch at the heart of Iraq’s turbulent future.
The new U.S. Embassy also seems as cloaked in secrecy as the ministate in Rome.
“We can’t talk about it. Security reasons,” Roberta Rossi, a spokeswoman at the current embassy, said when asked for information about the project.
A British tabloid even told readers the location was being kept secret — news that would surprise Baghdadis who for months have watched the forest of construction cranes at work across the winding Tigris, at the very center of their city and within easy mortar range of anti-U.S. forces in the capital, though fewer explode there these days.
The embassy complex — 21 buildings on 104 acres, according to a U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee report — is taking shape on riverside parkland in the fortified “Green Zone,” just east of al-Samoud, a former palace of Saddam Hussein’s, and across the road from the building where the ex-dictator is now on trial.
The Republican Palace, where U.S. Embassy functions are temporarily housed in cubicles among the chandelier-hung rooms, is less than a mile away in the 4-square-mile zone, an enclave of American and Iraqi government offices and lodgings ringed by miles of concrete barriers.
5,500 employees at the embassy
The 5,500 Americans and Iraqis working at the embassy, almost half listed as security, are far more numerous than at any other U.S. mission worldwide. They rarely venture out into the “Red Zone,” that is, violence-torn Iraq.
This huge American contingent at the center of power has drawn criticism.
“The presence of a massive U.S. embassy — by far the largest in the world — co-located in the Green Zone with the Iraqi government is seen by Iraqis as an indication of who actually exercises power in their country,” the International Crisis Group, a European-based research group, said in one of its periodic reports on Iraq.
State Department spokesman Justin Higgins defended the size of the embassy, old and new, saying it’s indicative of the work facing the United States here.
“It’s somewhat self-evident that there’s going to be a fairly sizable commitment to Iraq by the U.S. government in all forms for several years,” he said in Washington.
SWOPA and Scarecrow – I’m not disagreeing with you on the political approach. I admit to a tone deaf political ear (I never thought the “Cheney shoots 70 yo man in face” would be a big deal, but I play along; I never thought Jane, Howie and CT voters would pull of what they have with Lamont, but I play along. I’m willing to play along with the poltical approach too.
Personally was my point – and personally, for: “we owe it to the Iraqis to at least think seriously about how we can minimize the chaos as/after we withdraw” I have thought about it. Lots of things we can try, almost all have no military aspects whatsoever, and they don’t fit into a soundbite, but every minute we stay makes them harder to implement and moves us further down the age scale of the generations who hate we are winning while we stay.
Strategically and broad spectrum, I think SWOPA has great points. I’m just not a part of the broad spectrum and Iraq has been the #1 hotspot with me since well before we went – to where I threw things at Powell on the screen for his UN speech, and I was a Powell girl before then.
OTOH, I recognize my faults. During a long conf call that got very heated when I was in Richmond, two guys I worked with came to my door, coats off, ties loose, handheld recorders held up (we used those then) and started singing, sotto voce, “little miss little miss can’t be wrong”
I laughed, because they were right. I have that in me and I know it. ;)
klyde @ 75
I believe that if the draft comes back, the lottery process used in the early 1970s will be re-enacted.
Ed*ard Teller @ 77
I believe if Bushco tries to bring back the draft, it’s all over for them.The straw that broke the camels back.
Uh OH, I think I just threw the margins out of whack. Sorry!
If one starts from the premise that we are dealing with a family (the Bush family) who has shown historically, no compassion or understanding of those beneath the Bush ’station’, and a family that really feels they were born to rule, and couple this with the origins of the Bush wealth, then for me anyway, all Bush actions are understandable. And future actions by this ghastly president are predictable. George Bush is ruthless. He doesn’t know any other way to act. Perhaps it’s in his genes.
that’s why they’ll try phase three
draft with exclusions, it will take a while for the middle class to mount strong enough voice against the exclusions
so long as there are exclusions and deferments the draft dodgers like cheney will be very happy with a draft for everyone else
margins unwhacked — hit F5 to reload the entire page
OT – Lieberman is going to be on CNN’s Situation Room
Actually, we have imposed democracy by force and occupation. We imposed it on Japan and reimposed it on the totalitarian regime in Germany. But it took several millions troops, global war, huge world-wide coalitions that even included our next set of enemies, dropping two nukes that obliterated two huge cities, plus massive fire bombings of industry and civilians of nearly every other city — and a united people who felt they were fighting for their own defense, not some insane illusion. All of these factors are missing, so the discussion seems moot, IMO.
Thanks *ilson.
I should have known better than blockquote it too many times. My bad .
Anne in AZ @47 – cyberflowers at your feet.
That is the other point. Suskind even admits the CIA thought as much re: the Bin Laden tape that came out right before the elections. Bin Laden wanted Bush to win and Bush policies to prevail.
One thing the battling Sheurer-s(exCIA) v. Clarks v. FBI v. State Dept folk all will agree on, wether for the record or not, is that Bush’s policie have done a spectacular recruiting job for terrorists.
If I were an ideologist and not a pragmatist I would dream of Dems coming out with a hard hitting strategy that focuses on just how badly Bush has handled terroris.
WIth headlines and voice overs if they can’t find video clips. Over and over — that terrorist attacks set records last year, that terrorist groups are getting new recruits, every moment, that those recruits are no longer relegated to isolated area of oppression the ME, but they now come from everywhere. And why?
George W. Bush’s bad decisions. George W. Bush is prepared to keep recruiting for terrorists and making us all less safe. Why? Simply because he can not and will not admit to being wrong. Ever. Even if it means making us less safe. How far are you willing to go, just to keep from saying, “I was wrong?” [Picture of Bin Laden] So far that you are willing to recruit for this man?
Good one, Swopa!
Hi y’all! Can’t believe I finally caught up to you again, though my peepers be “purging thick amber and plum tree gum” for the effort.
Had lots of kind email to answer, and you know, my 4-fingered typing style just ain’t up to meeting that challenge speedily.
Anyway, HI!
They hate themselves for their shiny new “Made in America” freedoms!
Way OT, but it’s all related – over at truthout they’ve been investigating the basis for Luskin’s claims about Rove’s exoneration.
Everybody is still curious about 06 cr 128 better known as Sealed v. Sealed
truthout
Didja all know the Fitz has a blog?
Bustednuckles @ 86
tisk tisk – avoid overloading those nested frames. No ziggurats. :~)
Somebody earlier today nominated Christy as the Dems’ next speechwriter.
Great idea as far as it goes, but there’s SOOOO much improvement being cried-out-for there that it’s more than any one fine mind can handle. Therefore, I propose expanding the nomination to Anne and Mary too.
Amens?
No ziggurats. :~)
Thats O.K.. They make the beer taste funny anyway. ;>P
lotus @ 91
Yeah, and Jane for press secretary. That would liven up the pressers!
lotus:
All due props to our inimitable blogmistresses (and occasional blog misters)…
I see your Amen and raise you a couple Hell-Ya’s!
:-)
lotus @ 91
I’m making amens for that.
Yeah, and Jane for press secretary. That would liven up the pressers!
I’ll warrant.
From Laura Rozen at WarandPiece:
pragmatists v. “it’s all about me” babies.
Bustednuckles @ 92
wouldn’t want to lead you ashtray….
punaise — nice to see you again. I thought you took the only safe position last night: behind the sofa!
Cujo359 @ 69
Amen to that. We need to bang the drum that “the Republican approach is playing into the hands of the terrorists” for all it’s worth.
And there’s more we can be taking the high ground on:
The warrantless and (all together now)
illegal NSA spying program threatens our security by making it likely that terrorists caught with it can never be prosecuted. This program may force us to put terrorists back on the street for Chrissake!
Holding prisoners in Gitmo without Geneva Convention protection threatens us by increasing the resentment that the President himself NOW ACKNOWLEDGES foments terrorism.
Each of our “allies” in the War on Iraq have reduced troops or have active plans to do so, including Great Britain. If joining us was a show of support for our policies, then what is withdrawing that support? The Coalition of the Unwilling?
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
fahrender @ 17
Only worse because we are so hated in the Middle East, now more than ever. We’ve stirred up a hornet’s nest and we look weak and incompetent now – which is disasterous in that area of the world. Bush has drawn a big bulls-eye on the citizens of the United States with his “bring it on” swaggering stupidity.
I was a war protester but I remember sobbing the day Saigon fell – the images of people clinging to American helicopters – the absolute chaos and panic. Our country had pretty much put that trauma behind us and had constructively focused on lessons learned.
There are so many things that infuriate me about what is happening in Iraq, but perhaps most of all is the reality that there have been many, like Kerry, Wesley Clark, etc. who have clearly stated a better course for the US in Iraq, every step of the way. And they’ve been mocked and vilified by our friend Lieberman and the BushCo fear-mongering regime.
So now, here we are. And somehow we have to extricate ourselves with the least amount of damage possible. We need the best and the brightest working on this problem – not the likes of Cheney, Bolton and Rumsfeld – or that empty shirt, Bush.
scarecrow @ 99
yeah, it was duck and (plastic seat) cover time….it was almost divan. In the Middle East you just never know what’s lurking behind the Ottoman, however.
punaise — being your straightman may be the best thing I’ve done today.
from the post…..”Saddam Hussein turned the entire countryside into an arms depot in large part to fuel an insurgent war if he was ever deposed, and in the anarchy that followed the U.S. invasion, all of the groups that he had oppressed (especially the majority Shiites) quickly organized themselves into vigilante militias as their way of saying “Never again.”"
My nephew, during his first tour with the Army Rangers in Iraq a couple of years ago, was sent out to guard an ammo dump somewhere in the hinterlands. This ammo dump was 19 miles on a side.
BTW, whichever US corporation was responsible for food and water, Halliburton, I believe, failed to deliver to them, so part of their “work” was intercepting supplies convoys and hijacking the food and water they needed.
No comment on Halliburton. Others have waxed more eloquently than I.
But what was the US thinking when it invaded Iraq after 10 years of sanctions? That Saddam would not have been preparing for that day? No, that it was to be a cakewalk. Or else that was part of the spin…
lotus @ 91
Absolutely!. Today’s threads and comments have been very thought-provoking. I don’t see how Rumsfeld gets busted out, though. He and Cheney go back too far. Wouldn’t he be more dangerous outside the Administration? Who would want the job either?
OT – I was at a political meeting last night and was surprised at the emphasis on targeting the emotions of the people whose opinions they wanted to change (note: I know I am
hopelesslynaivesomewhat idealistic on some topics). I saw Occam’s razor mentioned upthread. Are there some good nuts-and-bolts political sites out there that anyone would care to recommend?Thx
Amen dab. Apparently Bush thinks the only aspect of the hornet analogy that needs to be considered is how much water can be transported in a hornets nest, but you hit on a few things he overlooked.
From Sadly No, which has the bravery to deal with the nutso Barone piece, and worse yet, the comments to the piece, here’s the kind of comment that is Friedmanesque:
The Greatest Generation is to blame for the covert enemies. True. The baby boomers are the children of the returning WWII Veterans. These Vets all came home so tired and disgusted with war that they vowed that their children would never have to go to war like they. So started from infancy the children were raised to detest war for ANY reason, for ANY cause. The returning vets also were mostly Democrats.
There you go.
scarecrow @ 103
can’t get foiled again!
Mary
Oh, that is so true. I still remember seeing the “make peace, not war” slogans on the side of the Gerber’s jars of apple sauce!
Course, that doesn’t explain how I (and many others) wound up another Dem in Vietnam, so if they want to call me/us “the enemy,” I should point out I/we still know how to dismantle, clean, reassemble, lock and load an M-16. Idiots.
I think we have to stop allowing the war to be framed as a series of false choices. First it was “fighting them over there, so we don’t have to fight them here.” It’s morphed into “If we leave, the terrorists will follow us home.”
False choices.
First of all, I don’t think what is going on in Iraq is now, or ever was, terrorism. It’s a cultural, religious and economic war that is going to rage whether we are there or not, and the only difference our presence makes is in the American body count. Does our staying in Iraq actually honor the sacrifice of those already lost, or does it cheapen the lives still on the line? Does spending so much money in Iraq – much of which is only making greedy contractors wealthy – do anything to improve domestic safety? Is the depletion of military resources in Iraq making us more or less vulnerable in the global war on terror?
We know it’s been one bad decision after another, but those bad decisions cannot be undone. That is so obvious that we probably don’t need to keep bringing it up – when we do – over and over again – it makes us sound like complainers, just bitching and offering no solutions.
Yes, solutions have been offered. And every one that has been offered has been immediately re-cast and framed as something else, to the point where the twisted version becomes the only version and our protests go unheard.
Would there be any point in throwing a bunch of good military minds, some diplomatic gurus, cultural and religious experts into a conference room for a weekend or a month to see what kinds of strategy and plans could be brainstormed? If it was put together by a group that would include, for example, Jack Murtha, Russ Feingold, Chuck Hagel and John Kerry, so that the conclusions and proposals would not be immediately cast as partisan, I don’t know how it could hurt either side. At this point, the partisan score-keeping is getting in the way of finding real solutions to a worsening problem that is hurting all of us.
Just some things to think about.
pow wow @ 55
You’re right. My only qualification is that since he is still the friggin’ President, Democrats have to talk in terms of working with him to implement the solution that he hasn’t got the faintest chance of coming up with on his own.
I would be fine, though, with language that evoked parents coming home & taking the car keys away from an irresonsible teenager. :)
I agree here, too — but you’ve identified what the direction is (or should be): “address real world facts and the problems they pose.”
For more, see here.
new thread
Scarecrow, punaise, Anne, SWOPA, pow wow – we’ve all been striken by something.
*g*
punaise @ 102
This doesn’t settee well with me. It’s the thrill of the chaise, after all that springs us to action, so let’s not couch our comments in slip(pery)covers. Next time I’m asked to follow punaise’s example, I’ll respectfully recline.
I don’t see how Rumsfeld gets busted out, though. He and Cheney go back too far. Wouldn’t he be more dangerous outside the Administration? Who would want the job either?
My take on it too — especially after watching Frontline’s “The Dark Side.” I’d be less surprised if Cheney and Rumsfeld dismissed BUSH than the other way around.
As for who’d want the job — beats hell outta me. (Of course, it beats hell outta me that anybody of sane mind wants any political job at any time. Those folks itching for the assignment to clean up after ChimpCo, though — well, they must be QUITE the special breed.)
Mary @
112
Fixed. (I am a full-service guest poster.)
LIEBERMAN wants the job.
The legacy of Bush and Donald Rumsfeld from Vietnam to Iraq
Swopa @ 109 – yes, you’re right that there is still a need to respect the Office of the President, if not its occupant.
I like your use of the common sense theme, per your link. And I like the suggestion of the Anonymous commenter there who suggests using the phrase “common sense for the common good.”
I’ve really enjoyed Ned Lamont’s ability to use words well – his ‘the common good before common ground’ phrasing is very much to the point against Lieberman. Common sense for the common good could, and should, be applied to an awful lot of our current problems, as you suggest.
Anne @ 109
1) I think it’s clear that the war on terror has nothing to do with our involvement in Iraq, no matter how hard BushCo tries to tie the two together. Bush was called on that specific issue in his presser yesterday.
I certainly don’t believe his morphing justification – the “we’re fighting them over there so we don’t fight them here” argument.
I do believe that we have created far more enemies since the invasion of Iraq than we had before and I also believe we are no safer here at home, and perhaps even less safe, than we were before 9/11
2) I think pointing out the falseness of BushCo’s arguments is an important reality check. And providing an alternate position is vitally important – I don’t care how much they try to twist and distort.
3) So, is that a reason to stop presenting solutions? I think it’s more important not to back down in the face of lies and intimidation.
4) I think Americans are looking for constructive solutions – not the crap Lieberman and BushCo have to offer
5) Precisely – again, Americans are looking for constructive solutions
109Anne August 22nd, 2006 at 1:33 pm*, Boy, do I agree with you! That one about fighting them over here so that we don’t have to fight them over here has always seemed so phony to me. Whatever makes people feel like fighting them over there precludes having to fight them here. They’re gonna do whatever evil they can here whenever they can regardless of where we are or aren’t!
You said:
First of all, I don’t think what is going on in Iraq is now, or ever was, terrorism. It’s a cultural, religious and economic war that is going to rage whether we are there or not, and the only difference our presence makes is in the American body count. Does our staying in Iraq actually honor the sacrifice of those already lost, or does it cheapen the lives still on the line? Does spending so much money in Iraq – much of which is only making greedy contractors wealthy – do anything to improve domestic safety? Is the depletion of military resources in Iraq making us more or less vulnerable in the global war on terror?
All exactly right, they are nothing but false choices. The only problem is, right now we are having an important election in just a few months. It will determine who has the power in both houses of Congress. To paraphrase Jon Stewart, Democrats have 49% of the membership of Congress, but only about 5% of the power. I’m hoping they wake up in time and see what’s wrong with this picture, ‘cuz I don’t remember the Republicans only having about 5% of the power when they were the minority party. Dems are great at governing, but they’re terrible at being the loyal opposition. So until the election, smart partisanship is paramount to me.
how do we tear ourselves away from iraq…
ummm..yesterday would be good.
peas!
ps, returning control of iraqiland resources to the regions’ tribes might be helpful, as in ‘the monkey fist trap’.
Even Rummy is straying from the fold, Seymour Hersh notes, and Lieberman’s neo-con handlers have let him know. It would be interesting to hear more about this.
Peace and Security,
janaka