Comments on: To Biodiesel or Not To Biodiesel http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/ Firedoglake weblog Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:48:26 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: diesel lover http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-264098 diesel lover Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:22:42 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-264098 <p>why electric is problematic:<br /> a: batteries are made from some nasty stuff, and will have to be produced/replaced a lot if we go whole hog this direction. We need to make sure the production is clean and recycling is mandatory and efficient.</p> <p>b. plug-ins are using some kind of generated power. If you live in TX, it is probably made from coal–not a really attractive option. If you live in other places, it may be nuclear, or hydro, or a number of other possibilities, but don’t pretend it isn’t going on just because you can’t see it.</p> <p>c. Auto makers are using hybrids to get more power instead of getting maximum mileage. The prius is a pretty nice compromise, though it still doesn’t do much better than some gassers. But most other hybrids are getting marginally better mileage than their gasser counterparts. It’s a waste of the technology with a feel-good marketing campaign.</p> why electric is problematic:
a: batteries are made from some nasty stuff, and will have to be produced/replaced a lot if we go whole hog this direction. We need to make sure the production is clean and recycling is mandatory and efficient.

b. plug-ins are using some kind of generated power. If you live in TX, it is probably made from coal–not a really attractive option. If you live in other places, it may be nuclear, or hydro, or a number of other possibilities, but don’t pretend it isn’t going on just because you can’t see it.

c. Auto makers are using hybrids to get more power instead of getting maximum mileage. The prius is a pretty nice compromise, though it still doesn’t do much better than some gassers. But most other hybrids are getting marginally better mileage than their gasser counterparts. It’s a waste of the technology with a feel-good marketing campaign.

]]> By: diesel lover http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-264084 diesel lover Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:15:00 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-264084 <p>A few comments on the most common complaints about BD:<br /> <em>more pollution</em>: The smoke you see is particulate matter. Particulates are not really bad for you–you suck in dust all the time. But with petrol diesel, they provide a substrate for carrying the nasty part of exhaust into your lungs. With BD, there is almost none of the nasties, so the dust is pretty harmless.<br /> Also, the reason diesels don’t have particulate filters is that sulfur in diesel kills them too fast. Now that we are finally seeing ULSD, the filters become viable and particulates become even less of an issue.<br /> <em>lost cropland</em>: Using soy or rape as feedstock is largely a matter of convenience now. BD can be made from any vegetable or animal oil. If we find ourselves struggling to produce enough food because of BD, we can switch to jatropha, which grows in arid climates where crops are not as practical. Or, we can use algae, as has been mentioned. Or, we can explore a wide range of other options, which can be specific to local climate.<br /> But we’re a long way from this problem at current production levels.<br /> <em>messy/time consuming</em>: There are pumps across the nation now where you can buy pre-made, certified BD. Making your own is great if you are into self-sufficiency, or live in a remote area, or just like tinkering, but it is not necessary.<br /> <em>negative returns</em>: these claims are predicated on one study, highly flawed, which mostly addresses ethanol. The US govt. has produced one of the many studies which show output 3.2 times as high as inputs. Even if you go down the road of “farming the crop uses too much energy,” you are too focused on status quo. Farm equipment is mostly diesel-powered, and can run on BD. Fertilizer does not have to be petroleum based–ask any organic gardener. Please do continue to point out the untenable farming practices that are so common today, but don’t mix them up with BD.</p> A few comments on the most common complaints about BD:
more pollution: The smoke you see is particulate matter. Particulates are not really bad for you–you suck in dust all the time. But with petrol diesel, they provide a substrate for carrying the nasty part of exhaust into your lungs. With BD, there is almost none of the nasties, so the dust is pretty harmless.
Also, the reason diesels don’t have particulate filters is that sulfur in diesel kills them too fast. Now that we are finally seeing ULSD, the filters become viable and particulates become even less of an issue.
lost cropland: Using soy or rape as feedstock is largely a matter of convenience now. BD can be made from any vegetable or animal oil. If we find ourselves struggling to produce enough food because of BD, we can switch to jatropha, which grows in arid climates where crops are not as practical. Or, we can use algae, as has been mentioned. Or, we can explore a wide range of other options, which can be specific to local climate.
But we’re a long way from this problem at current production levels.
messy/time consuming: There are pumps across the nation now where you can buy pre-made, certified BD. Making your own is great if you are into self-sufficiency, or live in a remote area, or just like tinkering, but it is not necessary.
negative returns: these claims are predicated on one study, highly flawed, which mostly addresses ethanol. The US govt. has produced one of the many studies which show output 3.2 times as high as inputs. Even if you go down the road of “farming the crop uses too much energy,” you are too focused on status quo. Farm equipment is mostly diesel-powered, and can run on BD. Fertilizer does not have to be petroleum based–ask any organic gardener. Please do continue to point out the untenable farming practices that are so common today, but don’t mix them up with BD.

]]> By: James Atkinson http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-252971 James Atkinson Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:35:03 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-252971 <p><a href="#comment-251569"><em>Cranky Observer @ 329</em></a></p> <blockquote><p> In straight highway driving (e.g. Los Angeles to Hartford) they will get _worse_ milage than their non-hybrid sibling because they are hauling the batteries around. </p></blockquote> <p>My father-in-law drove his ‘05 Prius from Salina, KS to Asheville, NC and back this summer — 1,500 miles each way — with the back end loaded with luggage and photography equipment. He averaged about 53mpg for the trip, including a lower average (~46mpg) for the mountainous western North Carolina segment.</p> <p>He is 6′1″ or so and reported that he was not at all road weary from the drive. I am 6′4″ and drove the Prius a number of times while he visited. Quite the comfy ride.</p> <p>Unfortunately, our beloved standard poodle died just weeks before his arrival, so we could not poodle-test the Prius.</p> <p>Sorry Christy.</p> <p>Cheers,</p> <p>-JA</p> Cranky Observer @ 329

In straight highway driving (e.g. Los Angeles to Hartford) they will get _worse_ milage than their non-hybrid sibling because they are hauling the batteries around.

My father-in-law drove his ‘05 Prius from Salina, KS to Asheville, NC and back this summer — 1,500 miles each way — with the back end loaded with luggage and photography equipment. He averaged about 53mpg for the trip, including a lower average (~46mpg) for the mountainous western North Carolina segment.

He is 6′1″ or so and reported that he was not at all road weary from the drive. I am 6′4″ and drove the Prius a number of times while he visited. Quite the comfy ride.

Unfortunately, our beloved standard poodle died just weeks before his arrival, so we could not poodle-test the Prius.

Sorry Christy.

Cheers,

-JA

]]> By: Cranky Observer http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-252273 Cranky Observer Sat, 19 Aug 2006 22:29:24 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-252273 <p>> Damn this is a win-win situation.<br /> > US farmers can make money and we can be<br /> > independent of petroleum. Sounds too good<br /> > to be true!</p> <p>Two words: soil depletion. Drive through Iowa and Illinois, stop in some 1800s cemetaries, and measure the difference between ground level at the edge of the cemetary and the surrounding fields.</p> <p>Cranky</p> > Damn this is a win-win situation.
> US farmers can make money and we can be
> independent of petroleum. Sounds too good
> to be true!

Two words: soil depletion. Drive through Iowa and Illinois, stop in some 1800s cemetaries, and measure the difference between ground level at the edge of the cemetary and the surrounding fields.

Cranky

]]> By: Meow http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251847 Meow Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:00:46 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251847 <p>Damn this is a win-win situation. US farmers can make money and we can be independent of petroleum. Sounds too good to be true! Like a car that runs on electricity. Oh yeh, never mind</p> Damn this is a win-win situation. US farmers can make money and we can be independent of petroleum. Sounds too good to be true! Like a car that runs on electricity. Oh yeh, never mind

]]> By: jm http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251731 jm Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:38:36 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251731 <p>i leave it to Mr Monbiot:</p> <p><a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fossil-fuel/">worst then fossil fuels</a></p> <p>~></p> i leave it to Mr Monbiot:

worst then fossil fuels

~>

]]> By: Susan http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251710 Susan Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:13:45 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251710 <p>Took the 06 Prius on a 650 mile highway journey..got over 46 mpg. </p> <p>Took the two teenagers to camp…loaded down the Prius…worked great. Gear, suitcases, guitars..</p> <p>Lots of statements that I read out there about hybrids are not true of the current versions.</p> <p>Just saying that if you don’t own one..you might want to check the new versions out. </p> <p>That said…whatever one can do to save on fuel..more power to ya!</p> Took the 06 Prius on a 650 mile highway journey..got over 46 mpg.

Took the two teenagers to camp…loaded down the Prius…worked great. Gear, suitcases, guitars..

Lots of statements that I read out there about hybrids are not true of the current versions.

Just saying that if you don’t own one..you might want to check the new versions out.

That said…whatever one can do to save on fuel..more power to ya!

]]> By: pdq http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251629 pdq Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:24:40 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251629 <p>Coming to this late, but I have been running 99.9% biodiesel in my unmodified 2001 TDi VW Beetle all summer without a problem. </p> <p>Biodiesel is not a gimmick, as some above have claimed. It does take energy to produce (ie to grow soybeans) but the studies I’ve seen put the return at 2 to 3 gallons of biodiesel produced for every gallon of fuel consumed in production. This is considerably better than ethanol, BTW.</p> <p>Diesel engines do have emission problems, but burning biodiesel in them reduces pollutants - for instance, biodiesel is ultra-low sulphur, reducing sulfate emissions. Particluates are still a problem, but a potentially solvable one. And diesels are very fuel-efficient, meaning that they will produce less CO2 for the same milage driven than gas cars.</p> <p>Individual owners shouldn’t be focused on using used cooking oil in their cars. If biodiesel-burning cars are bought by consumers, companies that produce biodiesel from cooking oil and lots of other sources will appear.</p> <p>Minneapolis just got it’s first, regular, full-time biodiesel pump this summer, and the second is coming shortly. At 2.87 a gallon, (and 40 miles per gallon) it’s beginning to attract attention.</p> Coming to this late, but I have been running 99.9% biodiesel in my unmodified 2001 TDi VW Beetle all summer without a problem.

Biodiesel is not a gimmick, as some above have claimed. It does take energy to produce (ie to grow soybeans) but the studies I’ve seen put the return at 2 to 3 gallons of biodiesel produced for every gallon of fuel consumed in production. This is considerably better than ethanol, BTW.

Diesel engines do have emission problems, but burning biodiesel in them reduces pollutants – for instance, biodiesel is ultra-low sulphur, reducing sulfate emissions. Particluates are still a problem, but a potentially solvable one. And diesels are very fuel-efficient, meaning that they will produce less CO2 for the same milage driven than gas cars.

Individual owners shouldn’t be focused on using used cooking oil in their cars. If biodiesel-burning cars are bought by consumers, companies that produce biodiesel from cooking oil and lots of other sources will appear.

Minneapolis just got it’s first, regular, full-time biodiesel pump this summer, and the second is coming shortly. At 2.87 a gallon, (and 40 miles per gallon) it’s beginning to attract attention.

]]> By: Cranky Observer http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251571 Cranky Observer Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:33:33 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251571 <p>> to use plain old waste peanut, soy, and<br /> > canola oil. I purchase it from her for<br /> > $1.00/gallon. Diesel runs $3.36/gallon<br /> > now in Guam.<br /> ><br /> > Simple simple: Strain it to 2 microns.<br /> > […] Free sound good enough? No EPA<br /> > poking up your rear</p> <p>Two points:</p> <p>1) Does the $1 price include the proper disposal of the filter waste? I would guess that is quite nasty and could result in an EPA visit itself.</p> <p>2) This will only work as long as no one else does it. Particularly on an island there is going to be a limited supply of cooking oil. Nowhere near enough for everyone.</p> <p>Cranky</p> > to use plain old waste peanut, soy, and
> canola oil. I purchase it from her for
> $1.00/gallon. Diesel runs $3.36/gallon
> now in Guam.
>
> Simple simple: Strain it to 2 microns.
> […] Free sound good enough? No EPA
> poking up your rear

Two points:

1) Does the $1 price include the proper disposal of the filter waste? I would guess that is quite nasty and could result in an EPA visit itself.

2) This will only work as long as no one else does it. Particularly on an island there is going to be a limited supply of cooking oil. Nowhere near enough for everyone.

Cranky

]]> By: Cranky Observer http://firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251569 Cranky Observer Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:29:44 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/08/18/to-biodiesel-or-not-to-bioiesel/#comment-251569 <p>Two observations:</p> <p>1) Hybrids are best for stop-and-go in-traffic commuting (think Chicago Dan Ryan), or suburban startup-shutdown-startup errand running. In straight highway driving (e.g. Los Angeles to Hartford) they will get _worse_ milage than their non-hybrid sibling because they are hauling the batteries around. Toyota masks this a bit by making the Prius the most aerodynamically efficient of their small cars, but that comes at the expense of space. As our 2-Prius neighbors found when they tried to take a camping vacation this summer. </p> <p>Summary: stop-and-go, get a Prius. Much fast highway, Honda Civic.</p> <p>2) Biodiesel (of which used cooking oil is only a small subset) will only work long-term if new plants are developed to grow it. If our current farming techniques are used to grow soybeans for the oil, it is a short-term net energy loser and a long-term soil ecology disaster. Some research has been done in seaborne oil-producing alge, but that doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. Some new plants (preferably seaborne) will have to be developed to make this work. Personally I think it has a lot of promise in the 20-year timeframe, but the question is whether there are societal forces that would rather not see it happen.</p> <p>Cranky</p> Two observations:

1) Hybrids are best for stop-and-go in-traffic commuting (think Chicago Dan Ryan), or suburban startup-shutdown-startup errand running. In straight highway driving (e.g. Los Angeles to Hartford) they will get _worse_ milage than their non-hybrid sibling because they are hauling the batteries around. Toyota masks this a bit by making the Prius the most aerodynamically efficient of their small cars, but that comes at the expense of space. As our 2-Prius neighbors found when they tried to take a camping vacation this summer.

Summary: stop-and-go, get a Prius. Much fast highway, Honda Civic.

2) Biodiesel (of which used cooking oil is only a small subset) will only work long-term if new plants are developed to grow it. If our current farming techniques are used to grow soybeans for the oil, it is a short-term net energy loser and a long-term soil ecology disaster. Some research has been done in seaborne oil-producing alge, but that doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. Some new plants (preferably seaborne) will have to be developed to make this work. Personally I think it has a lot of promise in the 20-year timeframe, but the question is whether there are societal forces that would rather not see it happen.

Cranky

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