
On last Saturday’s Pull Up a Chair thread, Christy asked folks to think about where each of us comes from. "Every one of you is a political junkie for a reason. And this morning, I’d like to talk about some of the whys of that. What got you involved in politics? . . ."
Lots of interesting answers, and I reacted to many of them with a "Oh, me too!" Some of us talked about people who inspired us, and others talked about people who pissed us off. Either way, these people got us off the couch and into politics. Some talked about events in which we were caught up – or events we chose to leap into with great abandon. Some talked about big national things, and others talked about family issues and local concerns. On other threads, these same kinds of stories pop up, as folks comment about the topic at hand, offering up a little of their own background to give some context for their thoughts. In the midst of all this political soul-baring, I also noticed a fair amount of religious language (it’s an occupational hazard).
And then there was last night’s Late Night FDL: Why It Matters thread by TRex.
If you haven’t read it, go now – we’ll wait. (If you read it already, you might want read it again to refresh your memory.) Read the post, then skip down (if you must skip) to comment 103 @ 10:31, then 108 @ 10:33, then 116 @ 10:36, and then continue reading the comments. We’ll keep waiting.
We all have our sources of strength for times like these, and they come from our most basic [often religious and spiritual] beliefs. The TheoCons are famous for their quoting of scripture and their leatherbound bibles with the floppy covers. They revel securely in the knowledge that every answer they need to any political question is right there in the Book. But TheoCons aren’t the only ones who are inspired by the Bible, and the Bible isn’t the only source of religious inspiration around that gets folks going, nor is it the only source of religious strength that keeps folks going when it all hits the fan.
Many of us on the political left are just as passionate about our beliefs as the TheoCons. We often fear to raise those beliefs directly, to avoid getting a negative reaction from those we want to engage. We [who have religious beliefs] don’t want to get tarred with the Dobson brush or labelled a Falwell Fundy. Still, many of those we’re trying to reach politically are solid, middle of the road religious people – and we run the risk of leaving a valuable tool to reach them unused, if we don’t talk about religious things.
Speaking out of one’s core beliefs is the best way to connect with someone else at that same level. If these beliefs are strong enough to get me off the couch and into the game, maybe they’ll do the same for others. But how? We don’t want to be pushy, like the "if you just accept Jesus in your heart" pitch from the TheoCons. Let me offer a couple of examples of political speech rooted in the speaker’s religious [deeply held] beliefs.
35 years ago, a young poet and preacher visited Sesame Street, and did a call-and-response thing with a bunch of the kids. "I am," said the visitor, and the kids shouted back "I am." "Somebody!" said the poet, and the kids yelled "Somebody!" The guest and the kids repeated the couplet, and then it progressed: "I may be poor, but I am somebody. I may be young, but I am somebody, I may be on welfare, but I am somebody . . ." The guest was Jesse Jackson, and a decade later he turned that poem into the heart of a campaign speech.
The words that echoed on Sesame Street may have been Jesse’s, but they came from scripture. St. Paul wrote his friends in Corinth, trying to get them to quit trying to pull rank on each other, and used the metaphor of the body to remind them that every one of them is Somebody of worth, and none of them are beneath respect. "If the foot would say, ‘Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body," said Paul. Eyes, ears, head, feet, even the "less respectable" parts (the "naughty bits" as Monty Python calls them) – all part of the body. Poor, young, on welfare . . . all part of the body, and behold: the religious and the political meet.
"Oh, but Jesse’s a preacher – he’s supposed to do that. He’s trained to do that. . ." OK, how about a non-preacher, like Bono? His Remarks to the National Prayer Breakfast this past February were a personal statement of political action rooted in spiritual and religious beliefs. A few snippets . . .
One of the things that I picked up from my father and my mother was the sense that religion often gets in the way of God. For me, at least, it got in the way.
Seeing what religious people, in the name of God, did to my native land… and in this country, seeing God’s second-hand car salesmen on the cable TV channels, offering indulgences for cash… in fact, all over the world, seeing the self-righteousness roll down like a mighty stream from certain corners of the religious establishment…
I must confess, I changed the channel. I wanted my MTV.
Even though I was a believer. Perhaps because I was a believer.
I was cynical… not about God, but about God’s politics. (There you are, Jim.)
Then, in 1997, a couple of eccentric, septuagenarian British Christians went and ruined my shtick—my reproachfulness. They did it by describing the Millennium, the year 2000, as a Jubilee year, as an opportunity to cancel the chronic debts of the world’s poorest people. They had the audacity to renew the Lord’s call—and were joined by Pope John Paul II, who, from an Irish half-Catholic’s point of view, may have had a more direct line to the Almighty.
‘Jubilee’—why ‘Jubilee’? What was this year of Jubilee, this year of our Lords favor?
I’d always read the Scriptures, even the obscure stuff. There it was in Leviticus (25:35)… ‘If your brother becomes poor,’ the Scriptures say, ‘and cannot maintain himself… you shall maintain him… You shall not lend him your money at interest, not give him your food for profit.’
[snip]
Look, whatever thoughts you have about God, who He is or if He exists, most will agree that if there is a God, He has a special place for the poor. In fact, the poor are where God lives.
Check Judaism. Check Islam. Check pretty much anyone.
I mean, God may well be with us in our mansions on the hill… I hope so. He may well be with us as in all manner of controversial stuff… maybe, maybe not… But the one thing we can all agree, all faiths and ideologies, is that God is with the vulnerable and poor.
God is in the slums, in the cardboard boxes where the poor play house… God is in the silence of a mother who has infected her child with a virus that will end both their lives… God is in the cries heard under the rubble of war… God is in the debris of wasted opportunity and lives, and God is with us if we are with them. “If you remove the yolk from your midst, the pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness, and if you give yourself to the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness and your gloom with become like midday and the Lord will continually guide you and satisfy your desire in scorched places”
It’s not a coincidence that in the Scriptures, poverty is mentioned more than 2,100 times. It’s not an accident. That’s a lot of air time, 2,100 mentions. [You know, the only time Christ is judgmental is on the subject of the poor.] ‘As you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.’ (Matthew 25:40). As I say, good news to the poor.
Let’s take Christy’s question from Saturday and give it a twist. We each have deep (often called religious or spiritual) roots that feed us – roots that we have in common with others. I am convinced that these deeply rooted religious ideas and ideals can be used to strengthen the power of the progressive community. We can use that strength to motivate each other, and use that strength to engage and persuade others to join in our political movement. People talk about the Religious Right motivating the folks in their pews, and about the power of the Black church, but there’s a whole lot of other folks of all kinds of religious stripes that could use some political engagement, and the deepest engagement comes out of the deepest beliefs. I got an email the other day which said, "I don’t see how someone could read [a particular statement of religious belief] and not be a liberal."
Let me ask you this: What would you put in those brackets, from your own religious background? It might be a particular parable of Jesus, a saying of the Buddha, or a passage from Thoreau. It might be a poem from the Book of Psalms, a rap you heard at the club last weekend, or a folk song by Woodie Guthrie. It might be a prayer, a speech, a song, or a sermon. Whatever it is, it’s given you strength and purpose and drive and a commitment to progressive politics, and probably can do the same for others.
And if it’s good stuff, you may just get the Estelle Reiner reaction to Meg Ryan’s passionate outburst, from When Harry Met Sally: "I’ll have what she’s having." That’s when you know you’ve connected.
Related posts:
- Justifying Discrimination in the Name of Religious Freedom is Not a Good Idea
- Teddy Kennedy’s Faith, Active in Love
- Blanche Lincoln and Mike Ross: Who is Your Neighbor?
- Bill Clinton: “I Was Wrong About Gay Marriage”
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Max Blumenthal, Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party





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Peterr!
FDL!
Lamont!
Now, to read post…
Breaking – John Edwards will campaign for Lamont in CT on August 17 (from Atrios)
I just wrote John an email thanking him for standing up for the Democratic voters of Connecticut and Ned Lamont.
Please do the same.
http://oneamericacommittee.com/about/contact/form/
Thanks for the great photo, Christy! John Paul II in Bono’s shades: that’s got to be a metaphor for something . . .
Rev. Al Sharpton !
[“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28]
Peterr at 3 — I got such a giggle out of that picture. I have heard from a few sources that the former Pope was a pratical joker…and the pix of him in Bono’s shades was just too good to pass up for this post. :)
Yikes. This should get interesting.
I DO love this community.
Great post Peterr, you’ve got my mind whirring.
John Casper @ 5
I’ll have what he’s having.
our Indianapolis Congresswoman Julia Carson rarely quotes Thomas Jefferson or Winston Churchill when she speaks but throws in lil Biblical hints and allusions constantly. She takes damn seriously “Love thy neighbor as thyself …” I’m a hardcore stone atheist myself but we get along quite well politically … I did attend enough Sunday School to use religious allusions with her …
History over the long term has shown a steady progress towards science and reason and away from superstition. Logic, reason and trying to objectively measure the universe are virtues. The Republican party is an enemy of those virtues.
OT with apologies. Not being a believer, I will leave this and take off.
Average price for regular gasoline 8/10/06 in 50 states and DC
$3.00 plus 28 states
$2.90 plus 22 states
$2.80 plus 1 state
Average national price: $3.036, up $.001
Highest recorded national average price: $3.057 9/5/2005
Highest average price: Hawaii $3.360
Lowest average price: South Carolina $2.870
Nymex Crude Future $74.03, down $2.32
Dated Brent Spot $75.87, down $1.66
WTI Cushing Spot $74.00, down $2.35
Gas steady although there has been a drawdown in gasoline stocks. There was a big sell off in oil and energy after news of the British terrorist airplane plot. Basically, the game got too dicey and real for speculators and they took their marbles and went home. The fear is that big consumers of oil products like airlines might suffer and that economic growth might slow more generally, neither good news for oil. For once this is not about production but consumption. However, if travelers shrug this threat off, jitters will quickly subside. And then there is always what could happen in Lebanon.
*ilson46201 @ 9
Using religious allusions is exactly what I think Bono and Jesse are doing – connecting with people using a common language.
You know Peterr,
Although I was raised Catholic in a fairly low-income family, my memories are neither heavy with religious phrases or political ones. I was raised to respect and try to help others, to be a good person, to have good manners, to value education, etc., probably what many of us experienced—and have considered myself a liberal democrat my entire voting life. Hunh, seems like it was “good family values” that got me where I am today.
I was astounded when I found that the obscure little Lebanese town of Qana where so many civilians were killed was actually the very famous Biblical town of Cana where Jesus changed water into wine at the wedding. Sadly, that wedding would be bombed out this week as a “gathering of terrorists” … my Sunday School lessons made that faraway place a part of my culture…
Here – I’ll start:
I don’t see how someone could read, “Blessed be the peacemakers” and not be a liberal.
I don’t see how someone could read the Golden Rule and not be a liberal.
RED SIREN ALERT!
Per Mary…
Rodriguez to Mount Comeback Bid in Texas’ Redrawn 23rd
The new congressional map for Texas’ 23rd District, invoked Aug. 4 by a federal court panel in response to a June 28 Supreme Court ruling, added thousands of members of south Texas’ Democratic-leaning Hispanic population to the voting constituency of Republican Rep. Henry Bonilla (news, bio, voting record) — making him potentially more vulnerable to a serious Democratic challenge.
And it looks as though that is just what is going to occur in the Nov. 7 all-candidate primary required because the judges’ ruling also vacated the results of the March 7 primary held under the invalidated district lines: Former Democratic Rep. Ciro D. Rodriguez (news, bio, voting record) (1997-2005) told CQPolitics.com Tuesday that he will challenge Bonilla and will formally announce his bid next Tuesday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/200…..rawn23rd_1
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly are ravening wolves. (Matt. 7:15)
TeddySanFran @
16
Unfortunately some think it means “He who has the gold makes the rules”.
Again @
18
squadrons of rabid lambs, dripping venom ?
I don’t think religion and politics mix. Religious should be a personal experience. Let’s leave it at that.
The feeling of being connected to the family of man is a political concept and needs to be honored.
I respect people who have religion and keep it to themselves. Those who drag it into the public square are only asking for trouble in the end.
In fact when religion is used to bond people I turn and run. Sorry…
God in his wisdom created the fly and then forgot to tell us why?
Nice post, Peterr, thank you. I appreciate Bono’s words.
As an extremely agnostic, committed secular humanist, I don’t have much to offer on this topic. Not to discount what faith may bring to others, mind you.
The Golden Rule works for me.
xyz at 3:33 p.m.
I wrote my letter to thank John Edwards for supporting Ned Lamont.
Thanks for the tip and the link.
My dad was the kind of guy who would stop and pick up elderly folks (strangers) trudging down the street on a hot summer day weighed down by grocery bags. Actually, as a teenager it would make me impatient if I was in a hurry to get somewhere. :)
I didn’t grow up with any religious indoctrination (nothing less religious than a non-practicing Jew!) but my dad, by his actions, pointed me in the right direction, I think.
And Teddy SanFran:
Neither do I.
Fantastic post.
I don’t see how anyone can read the words attributed to Jesus and not see a liberal. I don’t understand how anyone can claim to follow him, and not be a liberal.
One of the things that makes me the most unhinged is hearing Bush misquote Jesus’ commandment to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. He always says “love your neighbor as we’d like to be loved ourselves”. There is a huge difference there.
punaise @ 22
Don’t have much to offer? punaise, in watching your comments here at the ‘lake, I see that you manage to connect quite well with a number a religious folks . . . want to let the rest of the people listening know how you do that?
Nice post. I’m an atheist that never used to mind too much other peoples religion. Live and let live I used to say. No more. Since bush has been in office I have been compelled to “come out of the closet”, so to speak on my non-religious convictions. Friends and family freaked out at first and then realize that I’m still the same person trying to do the right thing by people and other creatures of this earth. The funny thing is, I try to point people to the teachings of Jesus. I think he was a good man, just not the son of a god. We have had many a good man and woman who we would do well to listen to. What keeps me going these days are the little glimpses of hope that I get from blogs like this and just waking up every day. Was it Jesus who said, “Revenge is mine.”? If so, I disagree, revenge is ours this time in order to survive. And survive we will. Geeze, I can’t believe I just poured that all out but it felt good. Thanks for listening. Not a lurker, just an astute observer and learner.
Since I’m one of those dreaded atheists, I don’t turn to religious texts for inspiration. That doesn’t mean I don’t have any. I do.
I don’t see how someone could read…
Thomas Paine:
“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.”
“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself.”
“Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.”
“The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”
…and not be a liberal.
Well, it looks like Tweety is going to go with the “national security” scare tonight. Maybe he is trying to making amends for straying from the Rove/Coulter party line in his not-too-bad coverage of Lamont’s victory.
Tweety is getting excited about body cavity searches.
I’m not a particularly religious person anymore, but I grew up in a Catholic family, and the Catholic Church I knew as a child and teen was quite socially-conscious and active in trying to help the poor and better the community. It was probably a result of my parents, who were liberal Catholics, and the religious community they chose and helped to build, but I was in college (early 80’s) before I knew that the Catholic Church was considered a conservative organization.
My background and experience causes me to think that there are two fundamental ways that a person can interpret and react to Christian religious teachings (I know, that’s way oversimplified, but hear me out). The first is an interpretation based on a belief in God’s love and mercy, and the second is an interpretation founded in a belief in His wrath. Think about it: the call to evangelism could be based in someone’s genuine desire to share their happinessand faith, or it can be based in someone’s hate and fear of other beliefs. Following the Ten Commandments can be based on a decision that they represent a good set of ethical rules for life, or it can be based on a desire to be controlled, and to control others in turn.
I think the research into the conservative need for authoritarian control (re John Dean’s book) gives a clue as to why some people choose one way and some choose the other.
We all have our sources of strength for times like these, and they come from our most basic religious and spiritual beliefs.
I don’t believe in a god or gods and I don’t have religious beliefs (and spirituality is just a synomym), and I think it is presumptuous for you or anyone else to presume that I do or that beliefs I don’t have are why I am a liberal, why I participate on FDL, inform my life in anyway, political or otherwise, or somehow are a means to “connect” with others.
I don’t doubt that you mean well and your religious convictions are genuine, so I’ll be a good EPU and wait for the next post or be back tomorrow.
Hard core athiest as well but an ethical person to the core. I demand of myself and others to do the right thing.
The “golden rule” do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If everyone practiced that the world would be much more peaceful.
This is why I think Bush has a personality disorder. He has no power of empathy. Without it you can’t implement the golden rule and you can’t conceive of the true ramifications of your actions.
xyz @ 3:33
Followed your lead and sent my message.
Thanks for the heads-up.
This is the story I draw from:
A leper came up to Jesus and said, “Lord, if you’re willing, you can heal me.” Jesus said, “I am willing,” reached out and touched the leper and he was healed.
What strikes me about this is that not only did Jesus not have to touch the man (he healed many at long distance) but he was forbidden by traditional law from touching a leper. It would render Jesus unclean, unfit for worship, real bad karma. Lepers were supposed to shout “unclean” whenever they came within a few yards of someone.
Jesus didn’t care. He touched the guy, taking the risk of his disease.
One more. A woman came to Jesus with “an issue of blood,” some kind of uterine disease, one supposes. In traditional law, this woman was thrice cursed — she was a woman, she had a disease which caused contact with bodily fluids, she had a “female disease.” In that culture that would make her a typhoid Mary of raging uncleanness. She said to herself, if I touch the Rabbi I will be healed. She did and she was.
But Jesus knew power had gone out of him and said, “who touched me?” The woman confessed (and expected, I suppose, to be stoned to death for defiling the Rabbi. Instead Jesus accepted her faith and sent her away healed.
Jesus ignored the laws that keep people from contact with suffering and oppression. He risked uncleanness and didn’t seem to care.
And he recognized the importance of human touch.
DefJef 21 -
I quoted these lyrics once before here because I’d just been moved to tears by Perla Batalla’s interpretation in the new Leonard Cohen concert film (which is incredible, by the way).
But here… from Anthem:
Can’t run no more
With the lawless crowd
While the killers in high places
Say their prayers out loud
But they’ve summoned up
A thundercloud
And they’re gonna hear from me
I don’t appreciate religion being played out on a political stage either. People of faith have a part to play — they can and should get involved if they are so moved (I met the Berrigan brothers once during an anti-Vietnam protest in Catonsville MD and I admired their work greatly). People like the Berrigans. Like that.
“Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:34-40)
Low-hanging fruit, I know.
LJ/Aquaria @ 28
Well said — and I’m not one of those dreaded atheists. ;)
And apologies to everyone for the OT, but I’ve been keeping an eye out for you since I saw your comments about insomnia in the late nite thread. Have you tried melatonin yet?
Gosh,
Is being alive, just alive, really that painful to most people that they have to believe in something outside themselves to justify existence? Is it some sort of survivors’ guilt trip that forces people to look for redemption?
I’ve been an atheist since I was 4 or 5–at least at that age I acknowledged it. And I came from, yeah yeah the full Protestant Monty yadda yadda. I just don’t get it.
Why is it that some “spiritual person” is always asking me to evaluate or express my faith? I don’t go around asking people to read a cosmology book or Richard Dawkins article. What drives you all to proselitize every chance you get? Am I now supposed to be a believer to be a Democrat or listen to U2?
Sheesh.
Dan
EPU –
I tried carefully not to say that you have to be religious to be a liberal, and if I missed that, please accept my apologies. What I mean is that there are a lot of liberals with deeply held beliefs (that often go under the name of religious beliefs).
Whether any of us are religious or not, many of the folks on the left that we are trying to energize behind Ned, Colleen, and other progressives are religious, and I’d like to spend some time figuring out how to reach them, connecting with their religious beliefs.
Obviously, I as a believer will do that in one way; non-believers will do that in another.
I agree with that and was going to post something similar. Liberal religious folk really need to learn and understand that we agnostics/atheists are quite different. Too many well meaning religious people project their own worldview on to me.
Peterr @ 26
I’ll ty to qualify that: I don’t have any particular religious wisdom or background to bring to the discussion, nor do I seek any. Yet I don’t have any quarrel with those here who do find meaning in faith; we share so many other common ideals and values. So I guess it’s a matter of the Live and Let Live subtext of the Golden Rule…
In 2002, Congresswoman Carson was in the midst of a heated election battle. She voted against the War Resolution, figuring she might lose nevertheless. She then designed a simple flyer with pictures of Gangdhi, Dr.King, Mother Teresa, etc with the slogan “Blessed are the Peacemakers” — at the bottom in small letters was “please re-elect Julia Carson”. We plastered church parking lots for two Sunday mornings just before Election Day — she won bigtime!
Ray Suarez recently gave a great speech about how religion is being abused to gather and maintain political power in the US & how we’ve confused and perverted the boundaries between government and religion. His new book is called “The Holy Vote: The Politics of Faith in America”, and to hear the speech, you can go to
http://minnesota.publicradio.o…..9/midday2/
My own take as an athiest is that the golden rule rocks no matter who you think is watching out there and you don’t need to have a god to know how to do good. Religion has led to the deaths of far too many people.
Thanks to all who are writing to Edwards.
We need to know that those who respect the decision of Connecticut Democrats will earn a tremendous amount of respect, support and appreciation from Democrats around the country.
We need to especially encourage those high-profiled Democrats who are actually going out to Connecticut RIGHT AWAY to campaign for Lamont. Their support is HUGE.
I hope Wes Clark and Bill Clinton get out there ASAP to campaign for Lamont.
Hey firepups, I’ll bet a ton of you can relate to this poem by one of our greats, Mary Oliver
Some Questions You Might Ask
Is the soul solid, like iron?
Or is it tender and breakable, like
the wings of a moth in the beak of an owl?
Who has it and who doesn’t?
I keep looking around me.
The face of the moose is as sad
as the face of Jesus.
The swan opens her white wings slowly.
In the fall, the black bear carries leaves into the darkness.
One question leads to another.
Does it have a shape? Like an iceberg?
Like the eye of a hummingbird?
Doe it have one lung, like the snake and the scallop?
Why should I have it, and not the anteater
who loves her children?
Why should I have it and not the camel?
Come to think of it, what about maple trees?
What about the blue iris?
What about all the little stones, sitting alone in the moonlight?
What about roses, and lemons,and their shining leaves?
What about the grass?
OT(?)
Enough with the GOP terror boogeyman spin. The GOP and its talking points are on the verge of becoming a caracterture and laughing-stock.
I think of the famous Ghandi quote, and have added one last line…
“First they ignore you,
then they ridicule you,
then they fight you,
then you win.
Then you ridicule them!“
Rob Zuber @ 41
Rob, different how? No snark intended. I don’t see any of the assumptions listed in what Peterr wrote.
Shantideva’s Bodhisattva Vow
May I be the doctor and the medicine
and may I be the nurse
for all sick beings in the world
until everyone is healed.
May a rain of food and drink descend
to clear away the pain of thirst and hunger
and during the eon of famine
may I myself turn into food and drink
….
Although they may play with my body
and make it a thing of ridicule
because I have given it up to them
what is the use of holding it dear?
Therefore I shall let them do anything to it
that does not cause them any harm
and when anyone encounters me
May it never be meaningless for them.
Trans. by Robert Thurman
I don’t think you need to bond people with religious AND libral beliefs. People are not libral because of their religious beliefs… they are “libral” because that is a rational decision which is about caring for your fellow man and your environment. God does not figure into this equation.
Why is the “left” feeling so compelled to embrace religion as part of their political “outreach”? I don’t see the connection.
I’m another of those dreaded atheists. Awhile back, in a Late Nite thread, I mentioned that many of the lessons I learned about morality were taught to me by science fiction. In all seriousness, I think if you’re open to the lessons, life will teach you what you need to know about hope, morality, humility, and a whole lot of other subjects. If you want an inspirational quote, here’s one, courtesy of J. Michael Straczsinski:
That’s optimism.
i’m a non-practicing agnostic, which means i don’t try to persuade others to join me
it’s a shame that america’s soaked in religiosity — i respect the attitudes of our founders: they wrote the separation of church & state into our set-up because they knew their history, including the history of europe — we’re seeing worse events now than the events our founders took as cautionary tales
my first object in trying to live right is to cherish the Other: the person who’s different
Cujo359.
That’s great!
I have no beliefs. One only needs belief to maintain that which is not beheld, and that is a waste of energy.
I am fortunate to behold the sacredness of humanity. I feel it, live it, breathe it.
It is manifest in our conscience, our love, and the joy we find in each other.
I am very thankful and fortunate that I came to see this before my life was over. Expecting some afterlife stuff is a sad waste.
Well… you asked! Now back to being a rabid neo-con hunter, tin-foil nutter & pol geek…
This entire Thread is moving and endearing. Thank you
What keeps me going? — Love and Purpose
And I like to read the Tao Te Ching. This is something that seems appropriate to the current situation and …
———-
Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.
Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;
But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.
Harmony neither acts nor reasons;
Love acts, but without reason;
Justice acts to serve reason;
But ritual acts to enforce reason.
When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;
When harmony is lost, there remains love;
When love is lost, there remains justice;
And when justice is lost, there remains ritual.
Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colourful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.
The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts substance, and ignores abstraction.
———-
The last lines describe my ideas about FDL -
Harmony in Purpose
Working on the Bearing of Fruit
Exhibiting Substance, not Political Abstraction
What keeps me going? Food. Sleep. Exercise. And dreams of Jane… oh, and justice. Yeah, justice.
Synchronicity helps me through the night and keeps me going every day. I can’t tell you how many times synchronicity has pointed me in the right direction when I paused to consider a new path or a course of action.
My biggest example, but I have a million from my life (names have been changed to protect the innocent):
We adopted our son. Our first encounter with a child did not work out but her name was unusual. Let’s say her name was Shamu Whale. That’s an unusual name, right? I bet you don’t know anyone named Shamu. I didn’t.
Fast forward one month. Our application is still at the agency. I procrastinated getting the paperwork submitted until Nov. 17. I get a call from a young woman who is pregnant. She went to our agency on Nov. 18 and picked us, among others, to ponder. Her name was Shamu Whalen. We wicked-clicked with her and her mom and we made a contract for life.
Fast forward again to the day after his birth. We’re sitting, chatting with the OB/GYN in NICU. He tells us he was the one who steered her toward the agency and open, rather than closed, adoption. Further chatting revealed that he had done his residency in Santa Monica, with the wife of my husband’s best friend. They had been very good friends and he had met our friend once before moving away to start his practice.
There were other synchronicities with Shamu, many others. My life is full of ‘em and they tell me all’s gonna be right with my world even if it don’t look so great today.
My husband and I were married in a Taoist Companionating Ceremony. We live in the foothills with bears and snakes and all manner of critters, many of them venemous (no lambs, but goaties). The cycle of life happens in vivid color right outside our bedroom window. Nature renews us every day.
One thing that really ticks me off is the assumption that one can’t be moral without a fear of God or without religion. Those of you who’ve offered your atheisism know what I’m talking about.
Just because the True Believers can’t do it doesnt’ mean it can’t be done. In fact, the self-righteous are often the absolutely worst-behaved because they think they’re justified in the name of
MachiavelliGod.Cujo359
I love science fiction as well. Ever read “The Mote in God’s Eye”? Among other things, I loved how the authors tried to say “OK – assume humanity encounters another species of life: how do religious folks deal with that?”
ditto sandlin at 4:22.
I was raised in the prosperous (white) suburbs of New Jersey, but in university really understood for the first time that there were things more important than traditional success. I got a job as a social worker in Harlem, Vietnam happened and I was inspired by the speeches Martin Luther King, James Farmer and others as well as by the Port Huron Statement of the Students for a Democratic Society. I have heard the I Had a Dream Speech at least a hundred times amd I still am inspired by it every time. All this came back to me again twice recently: at the stunning MLK Memorial in San Francisco and in the Rev. Joseph Lowry’s speech at Coretta King’s funeral, which made me cheer out loud and cry at the same time.
I am not religious myself, but I appreciate spiritually inspired decency, courage and intelligence as much as anything I have ever experienced.
Peterr @ 40
Why not just try to relate to them as people.
I’m not religious and sometimes I think I believe in God and sometimes not so much.
I have always tried to be kind and thoughtful because that is how I was raised. I worked in Customer Service for many years and my daily goal was to make the people I was serving leave with a smile on their face.
It has made my life quite joyful.
Just treat people like they are important, because they are.
The Nefarious Leslie @ 48
The quote is:
We all have our sources of strength for times like these, and they come from our most basic religious and spiritual beliefs.
Notice that “We all” at the beginning of the sentence? The statement is incorrect. It’s a projection of his views on to me.
I believe in a God but I don’t presume that human beings can comprehend God any more than a hamster can comprehend what makes the Internet work. So I look to the best aspects of humanity for my inspiration. I believe some of those can be found in the Bible and other religious writings.
I don’t have any problem with people expressing their religious beliefs, as long as they don’t try to impose them on the rest of us, like the Taliban or Holy Joe Lieberman do. (I call him Holy Joe not to mock his religion, but to object to his attempts to use it to control others’ behavior).
I guess the reason I have participated in politics most of my life is that doing so makes me feel better about myself and about some of the other people (not all by any means) I have met in politics.
To me, it represents an attempt to make things better. I am not interested in political power, but in the good it can do when placed in the hands of the right people.
I could name a lot of them who have served over the years, but at this moment in history Russ Feingold, John Murtha and Ned Lamont are three who come to mind who represent what I am talking about. Without idolizing them, I believe it is possible to achieve higher levels of existence by working to help get the best candidates, from a humanist perspective, elected–or to hold people like George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and, yes, Joe Lieberman accountable, and try to remove them from power or at least limit their influence.
To those of you whose beliefs and motivations are of a more traditional religious nature, I wish you well and hope they work to inspire you and better your lives and those of the people your lives touch.
I think it’s pandering. Religion has no business in the public/political arena. Pandering.
OK, as an ethical agnostic, I identify with this quote from the famous atheist philosopher, Bertrand Russell :
“Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have ruled my life : a longing for love, a search for knowledge and unbearable pity for the sufferings of (hu)mankind”.
Me too, Bertie baby, me too,.
Best from SAfrica
Rob Zuber @ 63
So leave off the end of the sentence.
When the shit hits the fan in your life, you’ve got sources of strength that you draw on for times like that, and they are . . . what?
No snark intended, just a desire to see what keeps you going. (If we turn the question around, and I’m going to energize the atheistic lefties to get off the couch, I need to know how!)
OT some possible good news out of the UN on a modified Lebanon resolution
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749019.html
How real all this is I don’t know but there is lots of face saving/pretend we really mean to do this that could offer a way out for the parties involved and more importantly stop the current destruction and dying.
Mommybrain–synchronicity is a trip! You have to have your eyes open to see it. And that is my nightly mantra, to open my eyes and see things more clearly.
I was raised a hard-core atheist (4 generations back, by the way) sci-fi freak. I will tell anyone in any conversation that I am not a Christian. Just because no doctrine forces me to be good, doesn’t mean I don’t cry when I see people sacrifice themselves for the good of others. That inherent sense of truth, beauty and goodness is in me, and I don’t know shit about the bible.
I like the part about cherishing the Other. I think we had a thread a while ago about exotic food when Jane’s Mom passed and there was lots of adventurous food recipes offered.
I also was inspired to get involved in politics and follow it through my studies of Political Economy. We read all the philosophers who tried to answer the question “What do we want our society and government to be?” At the end of the day separation of church and state is very important as is freedom to do as we please. That is why sometimes I have a libertarian streak but I also value the underdogs in society. Capitalism is just fine, but you can’t have an underclass that always is the loser. I believe that eventually the underclass will revolt. If everyone always had enough food and clothing etc and no one every lost out that would be great but the world doesn’t work that way. I think government is a good way to counteract that eventuality in capitalism so that we can have the benefits without the bad parts.
Do we want a society that doesn’t care about kids and the elderly? My answer is no. That is why I am not a libertarian, but I am a progressive. We all have parents, all of us were children once so we should be able to relate in theory.
Oh and Thomas Jefferson was a really smart guy. Love the Declaration of Independence. I am probably going to get moderated for my long windedness…Oh well…Hey moderators…love the new spell check thingy…I only had one typo whoo hoo!
roger the lodger @ 52
e
About a pot of coffee supplemented by a couple bottles of Coke….
Peterr @ 4:25 pm (#59) – I read Mote many years ago, although I didn’t remember as much about the religious arguments. The thing that struck me about it was how the humans made assumptions about the aliens that they shouldn’t have, and nearly were defeated because of it. “First contacts” to use the Star Trek phrase, are often great stories for those reasons, though. We’d see such an event through the prism of our beliefs, whatever they were.
The Nefarious Leslie @
38
It’s very sweet of you to worry about me. Thanks. :)
I’ve tried melatonin several times over the years, but it’s never worked for me. ARGH. All the herbal remedies just don’t help.
I went to a new doctor today, and it turns out my previous doctor was an incompetent prick. Some of the latter’s treatments for one ailment have caused at least two other ailments that have been ticking away inside. Nothing serious, but enough to have my body freaking out. As the doc said, “Hell, no wonder you can’t sleep! I’m amazed you’re functioning this damned well!”
So he’s got me on new meds (Ambien among them), and we’re starting there. At this point, I don’t care if it’s Ambien. I’ve got to sleep, or I’m going to lose my mind.
I’ll tell you this, it’s not religion. Ol’ Johnny Smith said in The Dead Zone – “God’s been a real sport to me.” Fuck god.
What keeps me going is my love for my family which doesn’t account for anyone related to me by blood, they’re all assholes. My Russin sister living in the UK. My fellow guitar plaing brothers in Iowa, Nashville and other places. My beloved partner J, who loves me in ways I’bve never known befoe. She’s the best. My four fur-bearing feline children (I have no human children, nor do I want them), BB King of the Blues, Billie Holliday, Nipper the Nipper and Brat the Brat. Their head butts and purrs and love transcend condition. As long as I feed them, of course. ;)
Music keeps me going. Good time American music. Delbert McClinton, Lee Roy Parnell, Allison Moorer, Wynonna Judd, the GREAT Paul Thorn, a cat from ohio named Sleepy Joe Lee. My own band…which I’ll post a link to some music, if anyone expresses an interest.
I’m political because I was a MSM journalist for many years (most as a photographer) and I saw what tinhorns most of them are, and that applies to politicians as well, from local yokels to prezidents. It’s worse now.
To some degree, WRT politics, a great, terrible anger keeps me going…I’m so fucking tired of the current political situation. And yet, it would STUN y’all how many people are still sheep about the Chimp administration…
And thanks, xyz. I wrote to Edwards too. My husband flew to Green Bay to visit family. In time for the red alert and Bush’s visit in GBay. I had left him a voice message saying he might have to prepare to fly home naked, and since they may even suck all gases out of the planes, including oxygen, he should “hold his breath real good” (as some on Atrios were advising). He called me back to say I was crazy.
I was raised Catholic. I’m no longer a member, but I retain the belief in KINDNESS. The Golden Rule is all.
Peterr at 4:10 p.m.
With all respect for your motivations in writing this post, I do not appreciate your believers/non-believers dichotomy. These terms may be useful to clergy in doing their day to day work, but to me they suggest that the “non” are somehow inferior.
As seen in the comments here, “non-believers” believe in a lot of things, and some of them are pretty good. Please honor our right to decide for ourselves what is appropriate for us to “believe.”
When Bush was proposed as the Republican nominee in 1999, I knew he would ascend. When he was elected, I felt like a voice in the wilderness – I cried out that he was a Dispensationalist whacko who would bankrupt the nation on his quest for Jesus’s return. Most dismissed these cries – many Dems said he wasn’t so bad, he was a moderate, things could be worse.
Can you imagine anything worse? Sure, he could have used nukes, but more than 2 years remain. We are being turned into a Christian nation. People who believe in a Sky God control the deadly machines that this nation owns. We said before we built them but hoped we never had to use them. Now?
LJ -
I take Ambien once in a while and it’s very effective. There’s one that keeps you sleeping longer (time-release) but I like the regular one. You don’t sleep too long and wake up feeling pretty good.
Although I do feel a slight heaviness the next day and so I only take it when I absolutely feel I can’t get to sleep any other way.
edited
lisadawn82 @ 71
I don’t have that problem! I need stufff to make me STOP going!
LJ/Aquaria @ 4:35 pm (#73) – One of my favorite bumper stickers: “What good’s an airbag when you’re insane?”
I’m an atheist, but my degree was in religious studies. I like to speak in spirchul terms sometimes — I pray for people in pain, for instance. Since there is no “god” out there, I guess I pray to the universe; I mentally push the Master Reset Button for harmony or something. It makes me feel better to think some kind of nano-action butterfly effect for good is possible.
The thing about religion or god talk is, if a person’s individual belief in something leads him/her to do good works, well, bully! The problem is, when God has certified your plan, it’s too easy to try to force it on the other guy — for his own good, for her own good — and that’s just scary.
I’d much rather be convinced of a thing because it is the right thing than because it is a thing favored by God. If the only argument in favor of a position is “it’s what god wants,” then it’s probably a bad and maybe dangerous plan.
The conundrum, or paradox, is: I do think contemplating some concept of god (whatever that is) in a meditative way can be a lovely, calming, and uplifting experience.
And I’m really on the verge of erasing this whole comment because it’s bordering on the nonsensical. I submit it as a sign of my respect for Peterr.
Dana,
I grew up even further north in Wisconsin than Green Bay – up on Lake Superior near Duluth!
Just a simple desire to understand the truth, obtained through logic, reason and evidence.
—————–
Charles Kingsley had offered Thomas Henry Huxley consolation through the Christian faith and the belief in the immortality of the soul, after Huxley’s young son had died some days earlier. His response:
“My convictions, positive and negative, on all the matters of which you speak, are of long and slow growth and are firmly rooted. But the great blow which fell on me seemed to stir them to their foundation, and had I lived a couple of centuries earlier I could have fancied a devil scoffing at me and them — and asking me what profit it was to have stripped myself of the hopes and consolations of the mass of mankind? To which my only reply was and is — Oh devil! Truth is better than much profit. I have searched over the grounds of my belief, and if wife and child and name and fame were all to be lost to me one after the other as the penalty, still I will not lie.” — Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1895)
Amen to that.
Randy Newman put it best:
“Cain slew Abel Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:
Man means nothing he means less to me
Than the lowliest cactus flower
Or the humblest Yucca tree
He chases round this desert
‘Cause he thinks that’s where I’ll be
That’s why I love mankind
I recoil in horror from the foulness of thee
From the squalor and the filth and the misery
How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
That’s why I love mankind
The Christians and the Jews were having a jamboree
The Buddhists and the Hindus joined on satellite TV
They picked their four greatest priests
And they began to speak
They said, “Lord, a plague is on the world
Lord, no man is free
The temples that we built to you
Have tumbled into the sea
Lord, if you won’t take care of us
Won’t you please, please let us be?”
And the Lord said
And the Lord said
I burn down your cities-how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You all must be crazy to put your faith in me
That’s why I love mankind
You really need me
That’s why I love mankind”
Peterr – we’re a tough crowd :~)
Cujo359 @ 81
:::SNICKER:::
Sounds like somebody’s been recording near my car on the freeway!
I had a Catholic friend whose favorite sin to confess was taking the Lord’s name in vain too many times to count on the freeway.
I do the same thing. I just don’t feel any guilt for it.
Christianity went from being a cult on the fringe (Paganism was the popular religion) when the Historical Right Winger Roman Emperor Constantine co-opted Christianity (Early Catholicism)in order to increase his own power(See Edict of Milan)by making peasants into Christian Soldiers who killed in the name of Christ. This was the early development of fascism that is seldom discussed. The Right Wing (Monied Classes) controls the government with the support of Big Business (Corporations; more money) and the important third leg – religion – used to manipulate the poor people to go along with the powerful and work against their own interests. It is the same successful formula used by the modern GOP.
I have no use for religion while it works (primarily) against my own interests. My interests are in having a better, healthier society for ALL humans (whatever religious beliefs and superstitions they may have), and a healthy planet (possibly, these concepts are not mutually exclusive).
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16
This parallels Galatians 3:28, cited in an earlier post. God sees us and treats with us as equals. From that, I deduce politcal systems that treat men as equals reflect God’s will, and political systems that oppress men are in conflict with God’s plan.
How can you NOT be a liberal?
…not Harpo
xyz,
Lake Superior, even colder than Lake Michigan. I so miss Wisconsin. This summer I brought back to Richmond a framed photo of Feingold that my sister gave me. My husband’s family is in Sturgeon Bay. We spent many summers in Door County.
neurophius @ 75
Agreed.
My use of “non-believers” in the comments was in response to someone who used that language about themselves. In the post itself, I hoped that language about “core beliefs” would cover both those of us who call themselves religious and those who call themselves agnostic or atheistic or anything else.
I’m certainly not trying to decide what you or anyone else should believe – I’m trying to see how we can take our (diverse!) beliefs and use them in a common cause – motivating the lazy middle of the political spectrum to get up and vote for progressives.
Koheleth @ 35
Actually, the question “Who touched me?” might be to demonstrate that Jesus did not voluntarily touch the woman, therefore absolving him from doing so. But then, I read the bible as a political document, written well after the events it depicts.
Jesus was asked about the 10 Commandments at the Sermon on the Mount, this was his response. These are the rules or guidelines that we should live by. They have always inspired me
Regarding this newest bomb scare emanating from Britain. How do we know for sure there was such a threat. I can’t say this wasn’t legitimate. But, I don’t think I want to accept what comes out of the Blair government anymore than I would take as gospel what the Bush administration tells us. I keep remembering the phantom WMD’s and all the rest during the ramp up to the Bush War in Iraq. And if the threat was real then why not just quietly arrest the suspects and deal with the problem in a much lower key fashion. Couldn’t be publicity hound Rove’s dirty work, could it? Bush and Blair are known liars and as slippery as a catfish when you try to noodle ‘em. That is, after all, the history of these two neanderthal nit-wits, Tony and Georgie.
Yo, suezboo!
I was just thinking of you today, wondering whether you were around and being quiet or just not around anymore. Good to see you (and, for me, a bit timing-amazing too)!
Yo, Peterr!
I was raised/acculturated in Mississippi Methodism, converted to Episcopalianism in college (purely aesthetic reasons), and very shortly thereafter just gave up on the whole project due to the vicious, kneejerk homophobia I encountered in my family and most other churchgoers.
The Golden Rule is, I think, the only precept I really need. (Big proponent of less-is-more elegance, doncha know.)
When Watergate came along, I was captivated by the Constitution of the United States and have, ever since, thought of it as my Bible.
This is what’s worked for me.
“We all have our sources of strength for times like these, and they come from our most basic religious and spiritual beliefs.”
I missed
“religious and spiritual“ beliefs when I originally read the post.peterr,
I appreciated your 4:10, trying to qualify:
“I tried carefully not to say that you have to be religious to be a liberal, and if I missed that, please accept my apologies. What I mean is that there are a lot of liberals with deeply held beliefs (that often go under the name of religious beliefs).
Whether any of us are religious or not, many of the folks on the left that we are trying to energize behind Ned, Colleen, and other progressives are religious, and I’d like to spend some time figuring out how to reach them, connecting with their religious beliefs.
Obviously, I as a believer will do that in one way; non-believers will do that in another.”
peterr, even after reading that qualification, however, I can really understand the very significant discomfort that a significant number of FDLers felt and many commented about.
I am very grateful for their comments.
IMHO, peterr, if you are fluent enough w/wordpress, if you could delete or “strike out” “
religious and spiritual,” I think it would really help the thread. If those aren’t options, if you could just state a little more clearly that your post was asking for people’s beliefs, whether they are“religious and spiritual“ or not, doesn’t matter.I want to apologize to atheists and agnostics at FDL for not reading the post more carefully. That’s on me.
If I had, I would have brought this identical issue to peterr’s attention, immediately. The first time I really paid attention was when I read Rob Zuber’s #63 at 4:27. That’s when I finally“got it.” Sincerest apologies to EPU, you talked about it much earlier.
For sci-fi books, how about Stranger in a Strange Land? Heinlein’s books are always a little sexist, but I always forgive him. I would love to see that book made into a movie!
The cable channel that connects to MSNBC on my TV just went on the blink. And only eight minutes til “Countdown”!
Technology is one thing that I don’t have a lot of faith in sometimes.
As for the Catholic Church (in which I was raised, BTW):
“First you get down on your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head with great respect and
Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect
Do whatever steps you want if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff
Everybody say his own kyrie eleison
Doin’ the Vatican Rag
Get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
There, the guy who’s got religion’ll
Tell you if your sin’s original
If it is, try playin’ it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer
Two, four, six, eight
Time to transubstantiate
So get down upon your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head with great respect and
Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect
Make a cross on your abdomen
When in Rome do like a Roman
Ave Maria, gee it’s good to see ya
Gettin’ ecstatic an’ sorta dramatic an’
Doin’ the Vatican Rag”
For me it’s the Parable of the Vineyard.
I had been to church pretty much every Sunday of my life and Wednesdays during Lent. Every part of the Bible is supposed to come around at least once during that time in either the Epistle or the Gospel or the Psalm reading.
I managed to have no understanding whatever of that Parable until I was forty-one years old.
The vineyard story came around in the rotation and our rector gave his sermon about it and then we studied it in Sunday School.
Whaaaaa???? Do you know what that says? I was flabbergasted that the worker who showed up right before quittin’ time got paid as much as the ones who had worked all day.
Why, why . . . that’s Socialism! Or Communism! Or something!
When we talked it back and forth, it seemed to be saying that you can come to a knowledge of God and (in my case) of understanding of the Salvation of Christ early or late, and that the really, really righteous are no more beloved or important in God’s sight than those of us who lost the address and get to the party just as it’s ending.
I think learning this Parable had as much influence on my thinking about the nature of goodness and worthiness and perfection and how God accepts us whenever we seek him – - or when he forces us to see him – - as anything in my life.
How did this amazing story escape my notice for forty-one years?
It also made me start thinking that if you try to apply the principles of Capitalism to our relationship with our Lord, well, you’re not going to like the New Testament very much.
BTW, I love Carl Jung’s analysis (!) that Jesus spoke in Parables in “pictures” just as our dreams are pictorial so anyone can understand.
They require no particular language to understand, nor any exceptional ability to read and understand concepts.
The stories told in the Parables are as understandable to shepherd in Greece as they are to a scholar at Oxford.
Question:
Is Jane going to stay in Connecticut through either the general election or the point where Lieberman drops out?
I really hope she does!
I will definitely be making weekend trips from NY to CT to do more door knocking and phone calls.
None of us can afford to lose our focus on this race, and by the looks of things, no one has.
From Sunday Times, 27-JUL-1980, per Joseph Jaworski:
Excerpt, Jaworski’s Synchronicity:
Although raised in the Catholic Church, I have found that science and personal experience have revealed more to me spiritually than any established dogma or ideology.
Last night’s experience in the FDL thread after TRex post was a pointed example of the personal discovery I’ve made; it was synchronistic evidence that we are all connected, that we are all one. In physicists’ terms, we are entangled, entwined; it is the illusion of separate selves that causes all anguish we experience as humans.
Were we all to realize the truth that we are but one, that hurting any individual manifestation of self only hurts the whole…
EPU, this one’s for you. No dogma, no religion, only physics. Einstein, Podolsky, Rosenberg, Bohm and Bell.
It’s not a religious belief Peterr, but I just read Alterman at Huffpo and I don’t see how anyone could read this:
and not be what is, for now at least, being termed a “liberal” – someone who looks at the statements made by Cheney and Rove and Mehlman and repeated religiously by CNN, MSNBC, FOX etc. – and laughs out loud.
Doc said:
I have a similar observation, with an amendment which I’ll get to in a moment. I was reared in a church-going household, my father a minister in what time and pressure — and liberal education, dammit! — have finally made a relatively liberal denomination. I’m not observant now, but consider myself a believer of sorts, and, thanks especially to the Pilgrim Hymnal, am comfortable expressing many moral and spiritual ideas in evangelical language.
That’s a prelude to my remark that many of those believers in a wrathful God seem to me to have skipped the early, harder parts of the Bible. You know, the ones about how we mere mortals should live with one another, such as those that have been quoted here already. On this point I agree with Doc.
What I would add is that there is a strain of those who place so much emphasis on the belief in Jesus as a magic talisman or unexamined symbol, that the deep connections between the symbol and the fundamental commandments of love and compassion for all can get lost, whether the person is someone who wants to coo one (incessantly!) into believing exactly as they do or smite those who don’t with hellfire itself.
What keeps me going? Poll results like THESE keep me going! (from dKos frontpage)
As for everyhting else a Berlin named Irving had some excelent advice:
“Oh
I got a message from below
‘Twas from a man I used to know
About a year or so ago
Before he departed
He
Is just as happy as can be
I’ll tell you what he said to me
He said, “If ever you get heavy-hearted
Pack up your sins and go to the devil in Hades
You’ll meet the finest of gentlemen and the finest of ladies
They’d rather be down below than up above
Hades is full of thousands of
Joneses and Browns, O’Hoolihans, Cohens and Bradys
You’ll hear a heavenly tune that went to the devil
Because the jazz bands
They started pickin’ it
Then put a trick in it
A jazzy kick in it
They’ve got a couple of old reformers in Heaven
Making them go to bed at eleven
Pack up your sins and go to the devil
And you’ll never have to go to bed at all
If you care to dwell where the weather is hot
H-E-double-L is a wonderful spot
If you need a rest and you’re all out of sorts
Hades is the best of the winter resorts
Paradise doesn’t compare
All the nice people are there
They come there from ev’rywhere
Just to revel with Mister Devil
Nothing on his mind but a couple of horns
Satan is waitin’ with his jazz band
And his band came from Alabam’ with a melody hot
No one gives a damn if it’s music or not
Satan’s melody makes you want to dance forever
So pack up your sins and go to the Devil
And you never have to go to bed at all”
Being neither religious nor spiritual, I could (probably should) just shut up. I did twice before. But this is the third post, Peterr, in which you have either asserted or implicitly assumed that morality and political responsibility can only come from these sources. You want to know what I’ve taken from my religious beliefs, but I have none.
I’m off to read Late Nite.
LindaR @ 82
Amen sister….
Have you ever seen this movie with the title some thing like What the *&%% (expletive masked) do we know?
It is about quantum physics and supposedly according to this movie/documentary people’s thoughts can change the composition/look under a microscope of ordinary water.
I tried to go to amazon to link to it but the internets are clogged and I can’t even get amazon to load.
In any case this idea that we can change the way things are with our thoughts is very interesting and perhaps can explain some unexplainable things…(remember I am an athiest) like miracle healings etc.
So basically I think it is good to have a positive attitude and think that you can do something and that good things are going to happen. Look out of pitfalls but don’t have the mindset that bad things are going to happen. You may end up makeing a self-fulfilling prophecy out of it.
Sincerely,
Happy well adjusted ethical humanist athiest Anna
Neurophius #63- Very, very well said.
As for me, I don’t try to figure out God too much.
I just know it’s not me.
I know that when I ask for help and strength and guidance from God, I feel less overwhelmed.
I know that when I focus on helping others, I am more serene and grateful.
I know that, to quote Bono – “my God ain’t short o’ cash, mister”
As for what keeps me going, I have a five year old son. My life stopped being about me the day I got the news he was on the way.
Steve Clemons
John Casper @
97
Thanks for the suggestion, John. I’ve made some quick adjustments, but don’t want to get bogged down up there while things roll along down here!
F5 time . . .
Thanks Peter,
Your posts are like the washing of the feet.
Have you ever seen this site? http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/
OT – Ha! Mike Ramsey tags Lieberman: cartoon here.
Hey, look! It’s me in the Wall Street Journal on-line edition!
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/…..nnecticut/
Rayne @ 102 — oh, I thought that was for me and my nano butterfly postulation.
David E @ 100
Tom Lehrer is gold, and we could sure use some more of his snark these days.
Kurt @
106
Note the results are not for other Districts but my guys OK – but in their Districts!
I just saw a shot of Tony Snowjob standing at his podium, looking down to read his talking points, and was struck with a thought:
He looks like Herman Munster!
TRex is just angling for a paid column in the Atlanta CJ…
Urban Pirate @
7
Well put back there at the top. Given the comments since then, I’d say “interesting” is an understatement . . .
LindaR — hey, we’re all one; of course it’s for you, too, and for Mommybrain and scarecrow and…which self did I miss?
EVERYONE…should be watching Olbermann…He just said that the so-called terorists just …JUST began to lokk at possible airline schedules and that Scotland Yard said they don’t know IF they even had the chemicals yet…GEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
this friggin administration and their disgusting enabler Tony Blair!
whoever gets Lamont’s ear, he needs to be able to address the attack on him by the white house and he needs to hit HARD
in discussion, WHENEVER these “thwarted attacks” are brought up in criticism of his policy to leave Iraq, he needs to broach the subject like so;
“Iraq had and has NOTHING to do with the war on terror
this presidents initiating unprovoked aggression in Iraq, a country which had NO international terrorists before the president’s unprovoked attack IS NOW A BREEDING GROUND because of arguably the most inept military decision in our nations history
the prescient had the NERVE to overrule the fines ts military generals and strategists on the planet, who IMPLORED him to continue FIGHTING TERRORISM NOT INITIATE A NEW AGGRESSION ON A COUNTRY THAT IS UNASSOCIATED
this president had created MORE terrorsts, not less, created MORE radical enemies, MORE sophistaced, AND MORE DIVERSE”
that’s the way Lamont has to react to this attack on his stand concerning national security
MsAnnaNOLA @ 108 — I haven’t seen that movie yet, but guess what? It is sitting on my shelf of “to watch” flicks! I will watch it tonight.
grs 113:
That’s hilarious! Thanks.
I heard on cable news briefly that Lamont did say that the War on Iraq is a distraction from the real battle against terrorism and that the War just breeds more terrorists…
a lot of commentators are using the meme of Joe being the dumped boyfriend who just wont accept it …
Jenny from the Blog @ 125
Indeed it is, but did he have to drag Peter Gabriel’s song into it?
I’m political because it was bred into me. Literally. I don’t call myself a Legacy Dem for nothing. My family’s been active in Dem politics since there was a Dem party. Mostly working in the operations and holding local office.
The strongest direct influence on me was my grandmother. She was an invalid all of my life, but she was obsessed with politics, a Yellow Dog Democrat until she died at 91, bless her heart. I don’t know where she got her political fervor; I wish I would have asked her. I’m sure it would have been fascinating.
Rayne @ 121
har-har
Sometimes the innocents suffer for the greater good. :)
MsAnnaNOLA
I think I saw the movie you are talking about…I remember the title as being something like “What the bleep is going on?” I think the bleep was in the title, I did not insert it.
Wish I could be more helpful.
I would also like him to bring Cheney into the mix since cheney had the NERVE to challenge lamont on national security
something along the lines;
‘here we have a draft dodger that has the NERVE to overule the finest military stategists in the world with the AUDACITY to claim his war with a country that had NOTHING to do with terrorism SOMEHOW fights terrorism instead of what it REALLY DOES, which is breed more terrorism
Jenny from the Blog 5:11 pm — oh, I know that quote…Spock from Star Trek III, yes?
“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…”
Heh,
Rayne @ 103
Sounds kind of religious and spiritual to me. But then I’m a r&s kind of guy. . .
MsAnnaNola -
The title is “What the Bleep Do we Know?” I saw it, extremely interesting and thought-provoking but ultimately dodgy. You’ll see. I think some of the scientists are suing the filmmakers for misrepresenting them, actually.
Rayne -
heh… I never saw Star Trek, but it’s been floating in the atmosphere for a while…
Rob Zuber @ 63
Fair enough. Peterr can speak for himself, but I suspect his understanding of the word “spiritual” may be quite different from yours, and encompass a wide range of ethical/moral beliefs that are not tied to any particular religious practice, just as the “Golden Rule” does not have its origins in Christianity. For myself, in any case, and for many others, “spiritual” is not at all a synonym for “religious,” but has an altogether different meaning.
I call myself an agnostic, because there is no point of theology about which I am willing to be dogmatic. But I am spiritual, in the broad sense of the word as I used it above. I am not threatened by expressions of religious belief in the public sphere, but I do object to those who want to impose their beliefs on others.
To comment more generally, some in this thread ask why people feel any need to discuss their religion in a political context. It seems to me that this post is in part a response to that question, even if it was not intended as one.
There is a difference between the left “needing” to be religious, and those on the left for whom religion, or spirituality, is an organic part of their political identity. For those people, it would be dishonest to avoid discussing that aspect of why they do what they do, to suppress that part of themselves in fear of it being misconstrued or causing offense.
And there is a difference between allowing issues of faith, religion and spirituality to percolate into broader political discussions, and wearing a Pharisaic piety on one’s sleeve as so many of the so-called Christian Right do.
There is, in other words, a responsible way to allow faith/religion/spirituality to inform political discourse, and an irresponsible way. The GOP has, for the most part, chosen and modeled the irresponsible way; many on the left would like to counter that with the responsible model.
For those who may think that there is no responsible way, I can only say that this is ceding the fight to the GOP. No amount of ignoring religion as an issue is going to make it go away. We can no more let Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell be the only voices speaking to religious and spiritual issues than we can let Karl Rove and Dick Cheney be the only voices on national security.
Sorry to have gone on for so long; it is just that this is an issue where I would like to see more daylight, and more understanding, on both sides, and this is my own feeble attempt to add to that understanding.
TRex at 5:01 p.m.
TRex! TRex! TRex! (stomping on bleachers)
See, we told you you are a ROXXTAR!
LJ/Aquaria @ 72
Well, I’m glad to hear you’ve got a new doc. If Ambien is what it takes to get you sleeping short-term, then yeah, so be it. Much better than the alternative at this point. Best of luck with finding a viable long-term solution, and please do keep us posted.
neurophius @ 132
this one
To atheists, nonbelievers and walkers to the beat of a different drum.
This is where the neo-witchburners get it wrong.
They infer a Creator from the complexity of nature, and then jump to their interpretation of Scripture. That’s a little quick on the draw – let’s back up to the nature of the Creator we observe in nature.
The Creator is into diversity – we are different sizes, colors and opinions. Moreover, diversity is nature’s (and your mutual fund’s!) survival plan.To say God only loves one narrow aspect of creation is to deny nature’s evidence.
Lastly, imagine (we’re liberals – we know what Lennon meant) the fundamentalists are fundamentally correct.
I don’t see any Thorian bolts from the sky. Apparently God has taken a live and let live attitude, just like He said in the Golden Rule. We each have the freedom to choose the warp and woof of our lives. It is incumbent upon believers to respect, as God does, that right each person has.
I suspect in the hereafter we’ll find we were wrong about a lot of stuff. I also suspect getting a few of the major ones (already discussed in this thread) right will serve us well.
Nefarious Leslie -
You make some great points. The only thing that raises my hackles (not about this post specifically) is that suddenly everyone seems to be talking about Jesus (can I say that without going into moderation?), it seems to me.
It makes me feel like we’re letting the amoral pricks using religion to manipulate the masses dictate the agenda.
TRex, Destroyer of Trolls! :)
TRex in the Wah-poo!!!!
T-Rex is pretty damn cute if I say so myself.
I was raised by a Catholic-born atheist and a Methodist-born atheist, then sent to private Presbyterian school and then a predominantly Jewish college. Then, a few years ago, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal disease- things are fine now, lots of treatment and lots of doctor surveillance, just an uncertain future. That diagnosis really did impel a serious look at the state of my faith.
Really, I decided that it didn’t really matter whether God or any of the cast of spiritual leaders of history and faith actually exist. It seems to me that leading a good life, striving to be kind, moral and diligent, and generally seeking to be all that I can in order to improve the world – that all of these things would make my life worthwhile (both for myself and those who have to put up with me) no matter what. It’s kind of an end run around the question, but it works for me. It is part of why I have started to explore political action and social awareness – making my time here worth the space I am taking.
And, my favorite quote from the New Testament of the Christian Bible is Matthew 10:16 – “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore, you should be as wise as serpents and innocent at doves.”
I like it because of the emphasis on knowing all things a mind can know (incl. good and evil) and yet holding to a path of inner innocence.
Faith that is not challenged is not faith.
TRex in a tie in the WSJ….it’s all over folks.
Jenny from the Blog @ 148
Aw, shucks. *blush!*
I was just looking at that picture and thinking what a little piglet I look like.
TREX!!!
Fine, fine post last night TRex!
and siun!
Oh jeez, I can’t figure out the edit function. I didn’t realize it was the WSJ.
I’m not a stalker. Really. :)
Oky, here’s how I see it.
For the sake of argument, let’s say there are two kinds of morality: personal and social.
Jesus talked some about personal morality, but basically his tone was compassionate (as best we can tell) and his words were along the lines of “Go and sin no more.”
What really pissed him off, what he really spent most of his time talking about, was social morality. Slavery. Usery. Crushing the poor. Praying conspicuously while failing to feed and clothe those who were poor.
What got him turning over tables was the money changers in the temple, no doubt wearing the Armani suits of the day. And what he came back to, time and again, was hypocricy: you pretend to be pious, yet you show no compassion and take no action on behalf of those who suffer.
Now we have those who profess to be his followers serving money, serving the rich, while allowing people to die for lack of food and water and medicine.
From where I’m sitting, he would not be amused. And, yes, although I don’t go to church, I take some inspiratioon from the radical Jesus.
&@8230;but to try actually answering Peterr’s quesion, having had a time in my life when I had to recreate some interest in living by the force of unassisted labor, I’ve decided that there are no answers, only process. This Russian hymn puts it best for me. It’s short, and has a great musical setting:
O Wise One you are John Casper. Great one to start off with.
I make no secret of my dismay at the loss of the Sacred Feminine, The Great Mother Goddess, The Creatrix. The other half which is ignored, supressed, maligned, worst of all forgotten. When I see God portrayed as being only “He”, “Him”, especially as being supposedly supreme over the Goddess, if She is acknowledged at all, I simply blanche. It is my understanding He or She is incorrect, “they” are not separate, “Source” is 50/50 Yin/Yang, the same as our very souls.
The basic misunderstanding of the gender or qualities of “God” per se to me is precisely why the world is out of balance, but sadly only on Earth, the Universe itself is perfection. Here we seem to have to express and live in duality to understand Oneness.
Whooowee.
TRex.
In the Wall Street f*cking Journal.
Damn. That’s a landmark, the kind of thing you have mounted and framed.
I have friends at Fortune 100 companies who’d give their eyeteeth to be featured in WSJ. Wow. You go, TRex!!
Jenny from the Blog @ 144
Jenny ftb, I hear you. But I don’t think that the issue can be dealt with in such a way as to remove Jesus & co. from the equation. I do think we have to break the stranglehold the self-righteous so-called Christians currently have on the dialogue, and lefties of faith stepping up and being more vocal is a place to start.
But for me, it’s imperative to recast the rhetoric in a way that reflects the religious freedom that our Founders intended – to affirm, with Jefferson (emphasis mine), that “it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
Time for me to duck out and get dinner fixed. Thanks for the conversation!
OT – The author of Fiasco is on Sam Seder’s show right now talking about the horrific mistake made by Bremer of de-Baathification. Putting 100,000 Iraqis who had any kind of government job out of work.
This is the kind of thing I’d bet lots of Americans do not know. This is the kind of thing that should be explained by the Dems as a reason for the unrest going on in Iraq today, and what hideous and stupid mistakes we’ve made all along the line.
We all knew about this of course, but it could go a long way to explaining to everyone who doesn’t know why and how things got so bad there. CRIPES. People need to be educated already!
/end rant
Nefarious Leslie -
I very much appreciate your 5:16 (139) post. People do make assumptions about religious and spiritual beliefs – My sister is a doctor, and she runs a clinic for terminally ill indigent patients. She is also a hard-core atheist, with no interest in any religious practice. Nonetheless, people constantly assume that she is a deeply Christian person and worry about offending her.
A doctor she worked with for a while had even been told by a hospice nurse “You just can’t do this work unless you are a Christian” – that doctor was disheartened and confused, and countered “But I am full of love!”
It is difficult to talk about these things, when every word can be a pitfall.
(pssssst: new thread)
Mass Southpaw @ 155
Well said. And our modern-day Pharisees put all their (hypocritical) emphasis on personal morality, while completely neglecting social morality.
Nefarious Leslie:
That makes a lot of sense. I just wish we didn’t have to deal with it when there is so much else on our plate. But I admire you for taking it on.
Yep, TRex, I’m happy as can be for your WSJ shoutout — mit foto yet! — but if I were a believer in pre-ordination, I’d say your ending up in Meriden was necessary to get you into that plane seat so you could give the world last night’s Late Nite.
Since I’m NOT a believer in pre-ordination, though, I’ll just be forever grateful that you, Rayne, Fini, Hope, and everybody else in attendance happened to converge on the same story at the same time last night.
Can I get an Amen?
MsAnnaNOLA @ 109
AMEN!!
There’s a mistranslation of the Greek word for New and Open Minded in the King James version of the Bible where it was originally translated to the word Meek.
What are liberals if not New and Open Minded?
For me the desire to be involved politically boils down to two things: 1) seeing strife in the world, and 2) the hope of, and the ability to imagine, solutions or alleviation to that strife. It pretty much boils down to the fact that I don’t like seeing other people suffer, whether it’s Joe’s rape-gurney victim or someone in Tel Aviv or Beirut or a whole damn country (or planet, or eco-system, etc…) especially when some policy might alleviate that suffering. Does that qualify as “spiritual?” I don’t think that matters.
I agree with many of the posters here that morality and political responsibility need not flow from any grounding that could be (or need be) labeled as “spiritual” or “religious.” Hand in hand with that goes my conviction that such terms themselves are all hard to define and widely subjective, and therefore the post itself begs a defining of terms. I remember Carl Sagan being asked once at an auditorium lecture, “Do you believe in God?” and he said the only thing that came to my mind, “What do you mean by God?”
Gotta watch Olbermnan!
I prefer philosophical to religious pursuits but I am not whole without spiritual beliefs. I used to get uncomfortable discussing them in political context, and as a young man engaged in the sort of pearl clutching/hyperventilating that took place early on in this thread by some at the mere mention of religious belief in a political atmosphere. I no longer do so because I understand myself and how the world operates a little better now.
Human beings have a deep inner need to feel connections to others. Our brains are hardwired for this as evidenced by numerous studies of the brain, psychology of belief and other research. It is the connecting between humans that is what drives faith/spirituality and what drives rejection of the same.
Some of us are fiercely independent and do not WANT that connection due to our experiences or maybe non experiences. Some of us strive to maintain that connection and find religious faith or spirituality or other methods of connection attractive and so find it easier to discuss these matters. I am a connection junkie myself, but I do use philosophy to connect with folks first, spiritual/religious connections second.
Some people fear this part of themselves and must be given time to come to terms with this. There comes a time eventually in our lives when a connection to another human MUST be made and that is when we choose to see God’s face, hear God’s voice or at minimum acknowledge a connection to someone, even if you reject God.
I myself feel at this point in my life that none of us are God, nothing is God, but everything in existence together unify to become God. God is not a person place or thing, it is a concept beyond our imagination. Simply put, God Is.
neurophius @ 75
neurophius,I didn’t get any of what you said you read out of what Peter had to say and I don’t think he was “telling people here what is appropriate for them to believe. I thought he was exploring how to relate to people to inform and win them to our fight (which is a good fight). Common ground with a CHRISTIAN?? If that Christian sees what we see, knows that what they see is wrong (for whatever reason) and is willing to work to change it, YES!
Having said all that, for me the most important way I’ve found to relate to ANYONE is treating others the way I want to be treated. The golden rule. For me, it helps build community.
Franco @ 123
So, the two-week-old tip Chertoff talked about was that some double agent had succeeded in getting their man at the head of a group of wannabees?
As I recall, KO ran a story last year, maybe, about the peculiarly convenient timing of most of the terrorist rainbow drills, so I suspect he’s thinkin’ like we’re thinkin’.
astralplame @ 163
astralplame, your sister sounds like a wonderful person. Some of the best, most ethical people I know are atheists. (Jeez, that sounds like the “some of my best friends are …” line, but you know what I mean.)
Yes, it is hard to talk about these things; but that’s one reason I’m glad we’re doing it here, because we do have to start somewhere, and there is no community I’ve seen like this one for wading into difficult subjects while still respecting one another.
first line of a song sung in my church last Sunday:
“What if God had a telephone…….
1-800-Holy-Cow…..”
I’ve been inspired by many of the world’s great religions.
For me the origin of each of the world religions is the most interesting, but over time they all accumulate cultural tradition, sectarian schisms, internal political structures and assume the purpose of social engineering, while the real experience becomes more and more distant and ambiguous.
I think at the core of them all is the experience of the unity of all creation.
This is what inspires me and keeps me going.
Some timeless political insight is available in the Tao te Ching. For example:
The best leaders are those the people hardly know exist.
The next best is a leader who is loved and praised.
Next comes the one who is feared.
The worst one is the leader that is despised.
If you don’t trust the people,
they will become untrustworthy.
The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly.
When she has accomplished her task,
the people say, “Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!”
and:
Those who lead people by following the Tao
don’t use weapons to enforce their will.
Using force always leads to unseen troubles.
In the places where armies march,
thorns and briars bloom and grow.
After armies take to war,
bad years must always follow.
The skillful commander
strikes a decisive blow then stops.
When victory is won over the enemy through war
it is not a thing of great pride.
When the battle is over,
arrogance is the new enemy.
War can result when no other alternative is given,
so the one who overcomes an enemy should not dominate them.
The strong always weaken with time.
and:
Govern your country with integrity,
Weapons of war can be used with great cunning,
but loyalty is only won by not-doing.
How do I know the way things are?
By these:
The more prohibitions you make,
the poorer people will be.
The more weapons you possess,
the greater the chaos in your country.
The more knowledge that is acquired,
the stranger the world will become.
The more laws that you make,
the greater the number of criminals.
I am almost certainly EPU’d but, this is what I wrote the night Egregious crashed and reached out to the community for a tether, and it seems a bit appropriate here.
But I have to add that it troubles me deeply to know that I could never run for office (nor my wonderful activist son) because he and I belong to the last group that can be villified and demonized and denied citizenship or even membership in the community of man (see Bush Sr’s comment about atheists having no civil rights, for example). We are atheists:
Egregious, and others.
The single most important, most influential book I ever read was Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. He was a Viennese psychiatrist, sent to that abyss of human invention, Nazi death camps, with Auschwitz his terminus.
He was liberated and lived until 1997. His story is one of unspeakable horror and unfathomable redemption. He pondered his experiences and wondered why some became like their captors and others retained their compassion and humanity. He concluded that the latter loved something larger than, outside of, themselves.
For me, an atheist, it rings as true as I imagine it would comport with the teachings of Jesus for Peterr or the other authentic Christians, or adherents to other non-materialistic life-positions of this diverse community. Larger-than and outside-of is for me the wildly diverse and wondrous world of life on this planet, whose manifestations sometimes leave me a helpless, sobbing mess when the beauty is too great to take in. Human endeavors can do this too, not least what our companion Egregious does. Right up there with Doctors Without Borders work, driven by agapean love and empathy. E hurts, knows what it’s like, wants to make others hurt less. That impulse, the humanism I see here, and Beethoven redeem our species in my eyes.
Grew up in the Bible belt. Bonus points for memorizing scripture. How to kick over the traces? Just put those Bible school lessons into practice!
“I don’t see how someone could read “what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me” and not be a liberal.”
ew:
you reminded me of my favorite piece of New Testament:
” . . . for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”
(matthew 25)
Jenny from the Blog @ 166
Well, we don’t all have to deal with it directly, I’d say. Those who feel compelled to do so, for whatever reason, can wade on in, and those for whom it’s not a priority can direct their energies elsewhere. But having these “focus” threads is a useful exercise for those who want to engage in them, I think.
Speaking as an unbeliever, who still thinks that prayer works, but only because humans are doing it for one another… and probably explainable by science we don’t yet understand:
Harper’s Magazine. That’s one thing that does it for me.
Last year (Dec?), there was a piece in Harper’s on the Bible of Thomas, recently re-discovered or something, but still considered apocryphal by many… the article also discussed Thomas Jefferson’s bible, which was remarkably similar to the earlier one (btw, he was the apostle, “Doubting Thomas).
What they had in common was that each one was stripped of anything miraculous or divine, leaving only Jesus’ teachings. From my perspective: Ethics, just as much as morality. It reminded me, too, of the Quaker version of Christianity, which does not really recognize special holy days, or titles, or practice any of the usual Christian sacraments, like Baptism or Confirmation. Just imagine Jefferson trying to do that to a bible in 2006!
In any case, the Harper’s piece gave me a whole new appreciation for the way Doubting Thomas’s reputation has been trashed throughout religious history. Just because he doubted Christ’s divinity, even as he accepted his teachings.
Thomas, speaking of synchronicity (which is more or less how I try to operate), means “twin.” I thought that was an interesting little factoid, too.
If not for that article, I probably would have had to look for a quote from John Woolman’s journal (Quaker & abolitionist). Or a poem by Robert Frost, “To Earthward.”
Part of my fraternity’s initiation ritual a long long time ago, from I John 4:7
Or maybe even better, John Donne:
There is so much wisdom to be gleaned from so many sources and many of them do not involve religion or a god, or anything that one would expect.
I find it intriguing and a bit painful in a way that religion is treated by some on FDL in a hostile way. Not to say that the originating ideas or questions don’t sometimes set that up.
Faith is a deeply personal thing. For some, it is necessary to shout it out, wear it on one’s sleeve, or try to bring as many as possible to the “light.” For others, it is an inner quest, not needing or wanting words. For many, it is not even part of the equation. I have had all three types in the congregations I have served. They have included theists, agnostics, atheists, pagans, and everything in between.
What I think is important to us all is essentially two things. To live a “good” life, one where the dictates of conscience are important and are acted upon. The other is to do whatever is personally possible to help make the world a little better for others and for generations to come. In my faith, it is never about the world to come, it is about the world in front of us. If one has a set of teachings that helps this happen, great, if not, does it really matter?
Peterr, I don’t think it is about people of faith finding ways to “energize the lefties to get them off the couch” (67 and in a way 92) I think it is about setting an example by being and doing and hopefully people will want to get involved. Why they do so can be for any reason, be it altruistic, or selfish, who knows. Mostly, people get involved and get off the couch if something touches them personally, whether it be in the heart as a compassionate response or in the gut from anger, or because something happened to themselves or someone they loved. Whether it is a god at work or not, matters not to a large segment of the population.
For me, the concept of Tikkun Olam, the healing and repair of the world is what motivates me. It fits into the creation story that resonates with me (Isaac Luria 16th century Safed) and helps ground my faith and my work. I don’t try to ask anyone else to subscribe to that story/belief but to find their own.
If we can find a narrative that helps us do the work of justice, whether it is a “religious” story or not it is the power of motivation that matters.
It is blessed work, with or without a God. I like to use the image that MLK jr left us about “praying with our feet.” If we all can walk the walk and not worry so much about the talk, we might be better off.
Just my own 2 cents.
For what it’s worth I wrote this for another group while in a negative mood.
Twisted Christians
Twisted Christians is what I’ve been calling them.
They’re blind to the real teachings of Christ.
Conservatives Without Conscience* play this dangerous group off against progressives – and win.
The alarming thing about twisted Christians is their willingness to follow leaders without questioning.
Not surprisingly they believe the literal interpretations of the Bible as dictated by their leaders.
Neoconservatives are leading Bush, the twisted Christians, the entire planet – into the apocalypse.
Corporate Fascists are taking advantage of the situation, stealing everything that isn’t nailed down.
I’ve never been so scared in all of my 66 years.
So I’ve been trying to understand twisted Christians.
Many of them are friends so I don’t call them “twisted Christians” to their faces.
I’ve learned not to engage them in arguments about the infallibility of the Bible.
Logic is useless in confronting blind faith.
Think tanks produce talking points for twisted Christians.
So they can argue the literal Bible and creationism in the face of logic and common sense.
You can debate them endlessly and they will never get it.
I’ve been in these situations many times.
I’ve never been able to shake their faith in the absurd.
Two hours toe to toe with a creationist was a total waste of my time.
They’re only too willing to destroy things just to have it their way.
We had to vote in a new school board to get the creationists out of our local district.
It all gets back to their unquestioning faith in what their leaders have told them to believe.
I’m convinced twisted Christians can’t find the light by themselves.
They’re genuinely afraid of abandoning their delusions.
I think confronting the hypocritical leaders and their predatory organizations is more effective.
The leaders must be exposed and discredited.
Most of them are perfectly aware of what they are doing.
Many have already fallen from power –
Jim Jones, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim & Tammy Bakker, Ralph Reed –
Just to name a few.
But the cleverest are still brainwashing their followers, endangering the planet.
Pat Robertson and Reverend Moon are my top two targets – aside from Karl Rove.
I was blown away the other day when I heard Robertson’s statement on global warming.
Then I realized Pat is just trying to get out in front of another parade.
Maybe he should pray for global warming to go away, just like hurricanes.
Robertson is smarter than Falwell though – Falwell just plays hate politics.
Pat’s been planning his Christian coup since the early 80’s.**
Pat Robertson has a criminal mind.
I think we can prove it to the twisted Christians.
A lot easier than proving the Bible’s fallibility to their satisfaction.
Reverend Moon is smarter than all of them – a sinister criminal.
“Moonies” are thoroughly brainwashed and will betray their own parents.
Some of them are beyond professional help.
Moon was crowned “The New Messiah” in the House Office Building.
The event was attended by several Congressmen as well as other DC bigwigs.
Reverend Moon bailed out Falwell’s failing empire.
Moon spent millions publishing the right wing Washington Times.
But Moon owns the Pacific seafood industry.
Bushdaddy has given speeches at Moonie events and been paid for it.
Fascists hang out together – and now they have almost all of the marbles.
Many of these organizations hide behind the “freedom of religion” fig leaf.
But when they are caught preaching politics they can lose their tax exempt status.
I know the ACLU is working on this angle.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is having success with hate crimes and skinhead religion.
The Interfaith Alliance*** makes an effort to reach fundamentalists who can still think. They plan a series of “Town Meetings” throughout the Bible belt.
Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are using humor on the absurdities.
Don’t ever give up.
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* Conservatives Without Conscience: John Dean delves into Sociology research to reveal the authoritarian personality – the dominating leader and the follower types.
“One of the things a conscience is supposed to do is make us act better, but when you have a means of eliminating guilt, there is not much incentive to clean up your act.”
** Katherine Yurica has the goods on Pat Robertson. Check out her website: http://www.yuricareport.com/
*** I think The Interfaith Alliance addresses this problem in a responsible way: http://www.interfaithalliance……p;b=447561
TRex is upstairs….
I haven’t written anything in this thread until now because it made me very thoughtful, and kinda weepy.
That’s OK though.
What I remember is growing up going to church, and one day a friend my age (13 I think) told me about the lady on the ski slope.
Ann saw a woman puking, lying in the snow, hair covered with vomit, teeth chattering. She was drunk.
So Ann helped her, cleaned her face off, got her down safely off the mountain, into the ski lodge.
Ann’s parents were pretty upset. “You shouldn’t ever get near someone like that! Don’t do that again.”
Now, we went to the same Protestant church. We grew up together. She saw someone in need and helped. I told her that was right, that’s what Jesus said to do. I mean that’s what a kid wants to do without thinking about it, help the helpless, the suffering, the sick. If a kid is in a place like that the kid would want someone to help her, right? Kids ARE helpless, a lot.
I think we have to lack sophistication sometimes to get what children ‘get.’
To RevDeb at 185 – Great Stuff.
Thanks for this thread, Peterr and all the other thoughtful commentors.
Interesting and moving and informative.
Thanks.
Probably way too late to this discussion, but wanted to at least say this. I grew up with a lot of prohibitions, as a Mennonite girl in Kansas in the 1950’s. They aren’t relevant and haven’t been for a long time.
What still glows for me, all these years later, is watching my father take $5 (and we wore well-patched underwear ourselves…there were no spare pennies in our house), to a woman with two small children who had been abandoned by her husband. It was one simple man, a struggling immigrant, offering help to another human being. And then there were travelers from Mexico, whose car broke down in our town. They stayed with us for a week. And the sponsored Cambodians who lived with us. And the Vietnamese family who my parents sponsored. There was the odd, mentally unhealthy man, gentle, but definitely with a different drummer who would quietly come to the door and join us for a meal or some of Mom’s homemade bread.
No dogma can ever match the simple loving actions to all human beings. I never heard a negative bit of gossip from my mother, ever, (I, who so love snark, admit that this is far beyond my ken).
My parents lived the Sermon on the Mount, through the cold of winters and the heat of Kansas summers. They were not perfect and never even thought of perfection. They were on a journey of following the teachings of their Lord, and their active, simple respect for every single human being was and still is luminescent.
At my dad’s funeral, a man in his 30’s showed up…I’d heard of him, but my dad had befriended him long after I had moved to the Northwest so I’d never met him. He was sobbing…he’d just driven all the way from Ohio to Kansas say goodbye to “the man who was like a father, the man who had taught him everything.” He wasn’t one of society’s favorite people…not much money, not skilled or witty, not good-looking. He felt my dad had seen him, the real him, and approved of him.
So, in so many ways, my parents were God’s conduits. My mother, who often doesn’t know me now, once said, “I don’t know you.” She hesitated, then smiled and said, “But I know that I love you.” Was there ever a daughter who had such a rich inheritance?
The very idea that a person could be a Republican and a Christian at the same time is just absurd.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:21. The absolute HARDEST idea to impliment, and goodness knows, not many Christians have been successful. But those who actually believe and impliment 12:21 have made Christianity the most successful culture in the history of humanity.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. – Abraham Lincoln
I was raised Catholic, and began to lose my faith when I read The Myth of Sisyphus, by Albert Camus. It took years for me to understand why, probably cemented when I read Philosophy and Social Hope by Richard Rorty.
Camus’s hypothesis is that once we decide we are not going to commit suicide, we recognize that we have to be responsible for the world. I wish I could find a couple of his sentences to say this, but it is too late. Being a human being, an adult, means acting responsibly.
As I write this, I realize how much it sounds like the Protestant Ethic. Hmmm.
Sufic poetry has often comforted and informed me. Naturally, Rumi comes to mind:
For many of us, religion is not a comfort. It brings pain as it has so many millions of people around the planet for many centuries. Millions have suffered and died for religion, for someone else’s interpretation of goodness and God(s). Religion has been loaded with guilt-trips to force unnatural conformity, misused by governments to demand obedience. I can respect the sentiments of the atheist and the agnostic as well as the adherent because religion has been both good and bad for humans.
But spirit is something that we share, whether we subscribe to a particular religion or not. It is the animus that drives us all, that archetypal power which encourages eight universal ethics by which all peoples seek to live, no matter what culture, ethnicity or even religion. It is in search of this positive, constructive universal energy that I hope all of us are united.
Nature is my Higher Power.
it seems to me that there are two main ways that people get into trouble:
1. not having humility (and thusly believing that one [and consequently one’s religion or philosophy] is RIGHT and anyone else is WRONG).
2. being too willing to do violence, and there are so many ways to do violence.
i don’t know about other religions but i do know that both Christianity and Islam are GUILTY in these two instances. this is not to say that every Muslim or every Christian is, thusly, guilty but there are factions within both religions that are.
that said, any objective observer must admit that religions have, most of them, made very positive contributions to ethical and moral good. whether you are an atheist, an agnostic or mugwamp the good values that you have internalized may well have been nurtured by religion.
on the practical side, we at FDL would do well to not castigate religion, especially with a broad brush. we need people of all stripes in our tent.
One of my parents was devoutly Catholic; the other was raised a Protestant. I had to negotiate larger extended family politics; one set of relatives feared I was controlled by Papists, while the other set assumed I’d seen the inside of Revival Tents and knew about Speaking In Tongues. I learned to be circumspect about religion.
I find much of my guidance in literature, and in recent years have become particularly intrigued by the ancient Greeks, mostly the poets and playwrights. Over and over, they revisit the theme of justice — how does one judge wisely? how does a city protect justice? what’s the relationship between justice, security, abundance?
They were writing in the Bronze Age, circa 800 – 500 BC, in roughly the same period as some of the Old Testament books. One of the key themes throughout Greek literature (and Biblical literature) is the notion of “justice” — what is it? What is ‘wise justice’? How is life more abundant when one lives in a ‘just’ world?
It’s my understanding that the Greek word for ‘justice’ is related to the word for ‘path’. The Greek form is “dike”. That word turns up in the 23rd Psalm:
“The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want;
He makes me lie beside still waters, he restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths [’dike’] of ‘righteousness’;
For his name’s sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil;
for thou art with me; they rod and thy staff, they comfort me.”
There are decisions/paths that lead to disaster. And there are decisions/paths that are more likely to lead to abundance. They don’t guarantee it, but the odds are better if you don’t cross over into bad territory. Given an economy based on goats, sheep, figs, and olives, not a bad message for a mostly-illiterate populace.
This resonates for me, as someone who grew up in the West; in spring, my father would drive my siblings and I out to watch the lambing in canyons near our town. (”This House of Sky” by Ivan Doig best captures this sense of the American West. I mention this simply to point out that for some Americans, the Biblical imagery is still evocative; our personal histories included pastoral landscapes. To see a newborn lamb romping is to understand how vulnerable they are — if coyotes come and there is no shepherd, or watchdog, to keep the lambs and sheep safe. A lamb is utterly helpless; the iconography of the shepherd is very powerful. The association among illiterate people between ‘good shepherd’ and ‘king’ makes a great deal of sense psychologically.)
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Around time that the 23rd Psalm was being written in the Near East, across the Mediterranean to the west a ‘rhapsode’ (or ’singer’) named Hesiod also invoked the imagery of sheep. His “Works & Days” is greatly concerned with ‘justice’, or ‘right paths’ (”dike”).
“Men whose justice {”dike”] is straight know neither hunger nor ruin, but amid feasts enjoy the yield of their labors.
From them the earth brings forth a rich harvest, and for them the top of an oak teems with acorns and the middle with bees.
Fleecy sheep are weighed down with wool, and women bear children who resemble their fathers.
There is an abundance of blessings and the grainland grants such harvests that no one has to sail on the sea.
But far-seeing Zeus, son of Kronos, is the judge of wanton wrongdoers who plot deeds of harshness.
Many times one man’s wickedness ruins a whole city, if such a man breaks the law and turns his mind to recklessnses.”
One interpretation of this: “when people create laws that are reasonable, and implement them reasonably, then women aren’t raped (therefore, their children resemble their husbands), and the people are safe enough to farm their lands (therefore, there is no famine driving them to piracy along the seas).”
The poets view justice as necessary — and bad deeds need to be addressed. But kings have particular responsibility for acting ‘justly.’ Because they lived in simpler times, I think they distill a lot of life’s wisdom into their tales of sheep, bees, and pathways.
I lived several years in a place where transgressors were shunned; the village literally put them on a plane and they were not allowed back into the community. To transgress in certain ways means that one loses the protection of the community. The community decides — and once they decide, the die is cast. To be exiled is to be vulnerable in the world.
Although this may not seem ‘religious’ per se, it certainly drives me. Ancient history has repeated examples of ‘bad kings’ who dealt out ‘crooked justice’ — which led directly to the weakening and destruction of their cities and societies.
There is something about the human spirit that craves justice; this need is expressed repeatedly in religious terms. I simply don’t believe that the megachurches have as much to teach me about the importance of justice as Hesiod does.
I am not ‘religious’ per se, but I believe that to live fully requires some participation in the larger community. The notion that all you have to do is ‘look out for #1′ is foolish. To participate in that larger community means that you don’t turn a blind eye on evil things done in your name. The human spirit craves justice.
For me, it’s not about dieties; it’s about figuring out how to live wisely. And helping in measured, quiet, steady ways to restore justice in a world dangerously out of whack.
What pisses me off (among other things) is that Bush thinks if he prays in public (i.e., throws in God’s name any chance he gets) Wingnuts will ignore any other heinous transgression he and his junta commit, never mind that Jesus told people they should go to their rooms if they want to pray.
I always wonder how many Christians this world would have without Christianity’s doctrine of resurrection. Wingnuttia’s obsession with the Rapture seems to point up how critical the whole concept of reward is for so many of them. Jesus’s beautiful ethics aren’t enough on their own apparently. And of course if the Rapturists recognized anything at all about Jesus, they’d recognize him as the premiere bleeding heart liberal.
He’s also reputed to have said, “By their fruits you shall know them,” which to my mind is particularly sage counsel for these dark times. Also, words that sometimes help me with my insomnia: “Do not be anxious about tomorrow. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”
Two quotes from Rock and Roll that particularly inspire me when I hear them:
Bono – “My God isn’t short o’ cash, Mister!”
Jethro Tull – “The God I know doesn’t need to be wound up on Sunday”