NED! again

I’m getting an ‘access denied’ error on the image. Maybe it’s not public?

The subtitle of the book is “How Internment Destroyed a Japanese-American Community.” In that destruction, the rest of America took a real hit, too. In turning a blind eye, in rationalizing it away, in scrambling to find a legal justification for it, all of America lost something.

Thanks, David, for the book!

Thanks for the nice intro, Kevin. It’s especially noteworthy that the Canadian government has never come clean about its behavior in this episode. I think it’s in the interests of authoritarians to remain in a state of denial about what took place in these kinds of gross violations of civil rights, so it does not speak well of that government that this is the case here.

Many thanks also to Christy and Jane for hosting this discussion. I was especially grateful to Jane’s discussion last week, because immigration and race are in many ways the dominant topic of much of this narrative. Of course, these subjects are also deeply intertwined with questions about executive-branch power and the abuse of it during wartime, which was in many regards the real driver of the mass incarcertation of the Japanese Americans.

But the dominant narrative in Strawberry Days is the one about the people who farmed in Bellevue before the war and what happened to them and why. I think my primary motive was to explain how these governmental abuses profoundly affected real people in real ways. I think Kobi’s story is very much in that same vein.

My partner, a Japanese American whose family historically spent time in the camps here, had heard of this book when I pointed it out to him last week. It’s making the rounds, which is excellent news!

Great book. So glad we have an opportunity to discuss it a second Sunday. :)

Hi, Dave….

Resurrecting a question from last week: What’s become of the ideas in Michelle’s book? It’s been over a year now — do they have any apparent traction on the transmission belt?

Also: “Strawberry Days” came out not long after her book; and your epilogue was a rather pointed response to it. What kind of dialogue (if any) did this provoke?

Thanks so much for the wonderful post, Kevin. And David, thanks so much for being here.

I don’t want to derail the conversation about the experience of Japanese internees but I think it has tremendous relevance for what is going on today as you say, David. One of my big fears is that with the popularity of the Minutemen and the anti-immigrant fury that is brewing, it’s going to seem like a really good idea to those playing fear politics to start locking people up again if another terrorist attack should occur. Is that something you think the stage is being set for?

David,

I love the book. It echoes with scary possibilities for today.

Any thought on the fact that a conservative Democrat like John Dingel, who happens to represent the largest arab population in the US, is being targeted (with lies) for allegedly “siding with terrorists?”

Michele Malkin made a nice little profit with a badly reserached book selling the idea that internment was a good thing. How far do you think we are from such talk here — one terrorist attack away?

Haha. It looks like we’re all on the same wavelength!

There, I believe I’ve fixed the issue with the second photo. Can everyone see the lovely cherry blossoms now? (Sorry for the blip…no idea what happened.)

yes, digby, same wavelength. Usually you get there first, however ;)

For what it’s worth, by the way, the newest history museum in Vancouver actually has a fairly extensive section devoted to the internment of BC’s Japanese. But, generally. yeah — I haven’t noticed people here being any more happy to talk about this than the people in California are.

I think there’s a lot of shame behind this: if anything, this cuts even more against the Canadian sense of national identity than it does for Americans, for a variety of reasons I could hold forth on for a bit but probably aren’t important. Americans stick out their chins, smile, and insist they’ve Moved On. Canadians are simply embarassed into a haunted silence. It’s just different.

Thanks Christy. I can now see the cherry blossoms.

Kevin:

Thank you for the moving story of Kobi.

Is he still alive?

The discussions of Malkin’s book are inevitable, given the topic, temporal density, and of course David’s careful documentation of her schtick (not to mention Eric Muller’s work).

Nevertheless, I’d like to ask David about his feelings about historic antecedents for this sort of thing – Mass-depopulation driven by race excercises have certainly happened numerous times in in many places, frequently for economic reasons that are masked by war-fever. Do you think that the lesson here makes it more or less likely to recurr in the US? I lived in Germany for a couple of years, and found that there was a deep, very ingrained, counscious rejection of the sort of thing that led to WWII there among most people. I don’t see that same sort of self-aware shame in the US. This is probably because the crime wasn’t quite as bad, and since we won that war, there was no external entity to encourage the shame. As someone who isn’t an expert on this sort of thing, I guess I wonder if our internment experiences in the past are likely to help or hinder future race or ethnicity purging efforts by those who want such things.

Nativist resentment of the “Other” has been a part of American Politics, from the Know-Nothings to the Modern Republican Party.

The politics of Hate is fed by the base emotions of fear, anger, resentment, and insecurity. What do folks think about the best ways to diminish their influence? Can it be done without using the politics of resentment against the GOP?

I personally think the Democrats need to tar the GOP, for their hypocrisy and exploitation of working Americans for the benefit of the rich — but I’d like to know what others think about this.

Mrs. Robinson @ No. 7:

I fortunately don’t believe Malkin’s thesis has had any legs worth speaking of. You don’t hear it being bandied about approvingly by the Fox-type figureheads as having “proven” that internment was justifiable, which is what I think some of us feared might happen. Not yet, anyway.

However, if there is indeed a mass crackdown on undocumented workers, then there’s going to be a real problem with providing enough detention centers to house them, at which point you may see this argument being floated.

As to any kind of response or dialogue regarding the pointed comments in the epilogue: I’ve heard nothing from Malkin at all. As you know, she has consistently refused to even acknowledge my existence, her claims to “openly taking on her critics” notwithstanding.

Greeting all, sorry to be late joining in.

thanks for fixing the cherry blossom picture. To be honest I don’t know if Kobi is still alive, I’d be inclined to doubt it since he was in his 80’s when I interviewed him and that was 15 years ago. And that is part of the problem when it comes to the internment, it is rapidly leaving living memory. As the internees get older and die, books like Strawberry Days take on an added importance in keeping the first hand memories of these tragic events alive

Thanks for the response. I was thinking more along the lines of a media dialogue, or a political one — I know you two don’t talk — but I get the drift.

You’re saying that the meme has been seeded, and may be lying dormant until the right conditions allow it to sprout. As your own book illustrates, it would hardly be the first time one of these noxious weeds lay fallow for years before finding the proper soil. Fishbane mentions that Germans don’t tolerate approving discussion of Nazi atrocities. We’ve had something similar at work in the US — polite people either denounced the internment, or didn’t discuss it at all.

Malkin has dared to break through that taboo, creating permission where none existed before. The hole she poked may be small; but it remains, ready for greater evil to wander through at will.

David — I’d be interested to know if you have heard from people who spent time in the internment camps and/or their relatives who have read the book. I’d imagine that the reading would be both cathartic and infuriating on many levels — and I’m wondering if you’ve had any contact to guage that sort of reaction.

BTW, this is such a well done book — you should be very, very proud of your work on this.

Hi David, I wanted to thank you so much for all the important work you do. With a toothless media that never crticizes the racism the Malkin type blogs consistantly post about–we would be lost without your voice.

You keep writing and I’ll keep linking.

Well, if the government decides to “intern” undocumented workers they are going to have to fence off an entire state to do it. Perhaps California would be good. It also houses the largest Iranian population in the US so it would be very convenient.

I recall my parents making the argument that interning the Japanese was for their own good.To protect them from violence. I could easily see that argument being made today.

Since it would take you away from the discussion, I won’t suggest you do it right now, but later on go and listen to the audio clip of David Suzuki talking about spending a chunk of his childhood in an internment camp. 60 years later he is still bitter about it, and not just angry at the government, but at the Japanese he was interned with. It seems as a Nissei, he wasn’t “Japanese” enough for a lot of the other kids. It seems to be something that really drove him the rest of his life. He talks about how his parents would never move back to Vancouver

digby @ 23

I recall my parents making the argument that interning the Japanese was for their own good.To protect them from violence. I could easily see that argument being made today.

Interesting — I remember my mother and grandparents from the Hood River Valley in Oregon making a similar “argument.” Then backed it up with the myth that local people “saved” Japanese farms and businesses, which happened “sort of” in a couple of cases, but not in the vast majority . . .

The scary thing about this is how easily it is for people to rationalize this sort of thing.

Digby – Re: the “for their own good” argument, I think that’s an excellent point. One can see similar strains of authoritarian thought in arguments about the various agency-denial aspects of the laws dealing with abortion. Whip the proles into a frenzy about hated object X, and then act to protect X from harm.

My tin-foil milliner wants me to ask if you think the contracts Halliburton and others have received recently to build what appear to be detention centers have a clear purpose. Or is this another internets myth?

Thank you Kevin for the beautiful story. I will never look at another cherry blossom tree without remembering Kobi’s story.

I don’t believe that we would see another occurence of mass internment with another terrorist attack, but there would certainly be calls for it and there would be roundups, detentions and attacks as well as calls for deportations. Many communities would target and hound residents of Arab extraction. After 9/11 a disturbing number of Arab men were arrested without real grounds and in New York, particularly in Queens, Arab families were the targets of hate and vandalism. So were some Indian and Pakastani families.

As far as David’s statement about the Canadian government not owning up to what happened during the internment — well, they did pay compensation and make a public apology 45 years after the fact. But more importantly the same government changed the laws that allowed the internment to happen during world war two and were used to round up thousands in the October crisis of 1970. Canada is a very liberal country, but like the US we are always one short crisis-driven step away from authoritarianism

Digby and Jane:

Well, there are a number of stages being set, and it’s all so tangled I don’t think we can predict any particular outcome:

– The president is claiming the power to incarcerate citizens without court review by virtue of their status (determined by presidential whim) as “enemy combatants.” This is identical in nature to FDR’s decision to incarcerate citizens based on the military’s determination that an entire race constituted a security threat. In both cases, this power was exercised through the military.

– The paleoconservative/nativist right is increasingly framing the immigration issue as a matter of national security. One of their pervasive claims is to invoke terrorism as a motive for increased border security. Some, like Malkin, go so far as to suggest that the nation is actually being invaded and surreptitiously conquered by these brown hordes. I’ve talked a bit previously how closely this mirrors the “Yellow Peril” anti-Japanese agitation that Strawberry Days focuses upon. It’s especially relevant here because the Yellow Peril stuff was a significant contributor to both the institutional bigotry and the later hysteria that produced the internment episode.

– I also argue in the epilogue that we’re essentially another terrorist attack away from seeing a real resurrection of the mass mindset that produced the internment. (Actually, I quote Roger Daniels to that effect.) That hasn’t changed at all. But I’m no longer so certain that Muslim and Arabs would be the immediate targets; given the swing in the immigration debate, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mexicans targeted first. Especially if, God forbid, the terrorists chose to cross the southern border to get in (something that, as I’ve noted, isn’t really all that likely).

So it’s entirely possible that, under President Tancredo (now there’s a thought to give you shudders), we could see a return to mass detention centers for illegal immigrants branded a “security threat” after another terrorist attack. But I find that scenario rather unlikely right now.

What seems more likely to me is that a terrorist attack would induce a Republican president (under pressure, probably) to crack down on illegal immigrants, both Arab and Mexican. Since we are talking about several million people here, such a crackdown would almost certainly bring about a crisis in detention housing that, in turn, would bring back the camps, 21st-century style.

I remember the early days of AIDS, when some of the rightwingnuts wanted to send all the gays to camps “for their own protection” and also in the name of “public health.” It didn’t get much traction, but it scared the bejesus out of lots and lots of folks.

I don’t think that undocumented workers would be “interned” today in the same way that the Japanese were in the 40s. More likely would be a “send them home” movement . . . unless of course “home” refused to take them, in which case, well, “we’ve got to put them somewhere” would become the operating philosophy.

Call it the “Hotel California” option – you can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave.

Alison, fear and hatred are rarely selective. There were mass arrests in the wake of 9/11 and some of those people are still in detention today with no charges having been filed. Among the casualties of vigilante violence after 9/11 were several Sihks — I guess the rednecks figured a turban was a turban.

I mentioned last week that I’ve got a stepdad in this same group. He’s 78, and was raised in the Jewish/Irish ghetto of East LA. One of the most liberal and fair-minded people I’ve ever met — unless you get him talking about the internment, at which point he just starts spouting all the propaganda he learned way back when he was 14 and his neighbors were being herded off to Santa Anita.

There were Jap subs in Long Beach Harbor! A lot of them were still loyal to the Emperor! It’s just incredible.

There are enough people like this still around that Malkin could draw on their “memories” to do “research” for her book, thus perpetuating ideas that were on the verge of a natural die-off. She took the ravings of a lot of right-wing loonies, and moved them the first big step along the transmission belt.

David, do you see any parallels between FDR’s orders of internment and Bush’s ongoing efforts to expand excutive powers through such things as so-called signing statements?

Also, it should be remembered that both Canada and the US set the precedent for this kind of thing by driving native peoples off of ancestral homelands, and incarcerating them on reserves.

Never really acknowledged. And certainly not compensated.

Digby and Jane:

Well, there are a number of stages being set, and it’s all so tangled I don’t think we can predict any particular outcome:

– The president is claiming the power to incarcerate citizens without court review by virtue of their status (determined by presidential whim) as “enemy combatants.” This is identical in nature to FDR’s decision to incarcerate citizens based on the military’s determination that an entire race constituted a security threat. In both cases, this power was exercised through the military.

– The paleoconservative/nativist right is increasingly framing the immigration issue as a matter of national security. One of their pervasive claims is to invoke terrorism as a motive for increased border security. Some, like Malkin, go so far as to suggest that the nation is actually being invaded and surreptitiously conquered by these brown hordes. I’ve talked a bit previously how closely this mirrors the “Yellow Peril” anti-Japanese agitation that Strawberry Days focuses upon. It’s especially relevant here because the Yellow Peril stuff was a significant contributor to both the institutional bigotry and the later hysteria that produced the internment episode.

– I also argue in the epilogue that we’re essentially another terrorist attack away from seeing a real resurrection of the mass mindset that produced the internment. (Actually, I quote Roger Daniels to that effect.) That hasn’t changed at all. But I’m no longer so certain that Muslim and Arabs would be the immediate targets; given the swing in the immigration debate, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mexicans targeted first. Especially if, God forbid, the terrorists chose to cross the southern border to get in (something that, as I’ve noted, isn’t really all that likely).

So it’s entirely possible that, under President Tancredo (now there’s a thought to give you shudders), we could see a return to mass detention centers for illegal immigrants branded a “security threat” after another terrorist attack. But I find that scenario rather unlikely right now.

What seems more likely to me is that a terrorist attack would induce a Republican president (under pressure, probably) to crack down on illegal immigrants, both Arab and Mexican. Since we are talking about several million people here, such a crackdown would almost certainly bring about a crisis in detention housing that, in turn, would bring back the camps, 21st-century style.

I was in Tennessee for 9/11 and the “for their own good” argument was making the rounds. I said, “what if they don’t want to go into camps?” I was told, “well then we’ve got no obligation to protect them.”

The internal logic flaws of that argument boggle the mind, so I merely closed out the conversation by saying that if we get to the point where we aren’t willing to protect our own citizens from one another, we’ve got much bigger problems than anything terrorists could inflict.

the real goal of any terrorist or violent revolutionary (you say tomayto, I say tomahto) is not the indiscriminant slaughter they wreck, but the reaction they provoke from the targeted state. If by setting off a bomb, a terrorist can provoke a crackdown by the state that leads people to oppose their own government, then he has won a victory. Internment of Arabs in response to 9/11 would played right into Osama Bin Laden’s hands.

Every time people suggest shredding the American social compact this way, it’s another sign that the terrorists have already one.

I think progressives could stand to be a whole lot more forceful about making this point.

OK, that’s the last time I post without previewing. “One?” Sheesh. Sorry.

The AIDS crisis in the 1980s had an element of “let’s send the gays to the camps” to it, coming from the far right wing, all in the name of “public health.” That didn’t get much traction then, though it scared the bejesus out of a lot of folks at the time.

Today, I’m afraid it is much more subtle. More like Kafka than Korematsu . . .

“Yes, you’ve been arrested, but . . .
we can’t tell you the charges,
we can’t show you the evidence,
we can’t tell you when your case will be heard,
we can’t tell you where the court will be,
we can’t tell your family you’ve been arrested,
we can’t tell you what sentence you are facing,
we can’t let you confront the witnesses against you,
we can’t let you question our authority before an appellate court . . .”

Mrs. Robinson @ 38

OK, that’s the last time I post without previewing. “One?” Sheesh. Sorry.

that’s what the “edit this comment” button is for

I was in Tennessee for 9/11 and the “for their own good” argument was making the rounds. I said, “what if they don’t want to go into camps?” I was told, “well then we’ve got no obligation to protect them.”

Oh, god. I went to highschool in TN (Murfreesburo). That particular attitude drove me insane. There is a particularly weird form of “either/or” authoritarianism that seems endemic there. I was unlucky enough to be in NY for 9/11. We’re in Brooklyn, right across the river. After the first strike, we walked over to the docks and started taking pictures. After the second, we went back, closed the company for the day, and got some beer. When they fell, we bought a bunch of water and started handing it out to people coming over the bridge.

Sorry, this turned into an emotional dump. I had a point in there, somewhere.

kevin, really appreciate you stopping by for this really terrific book.
Are Japanese Americans buying the book and if not, are there any marketing ideas to target (target was a very poor choice of words in the present context) them in a marketing kind of way?

That’s right: we got feeetchers here most blogs don’t!

Peterr @ 41

The AIDS crisis in the 1980s had an element of “let’s send the gays to the camps” to it, coming from the far right wing, all in the name of “public health.” That didn’t get much traction then, though it scared the bejesus out of a lot of folks at the time.

Today, I’m afraid it is much more subtle. More like Kafka than Korematsu . . .

“Yes, you’ve been arrested, but . . .
we can’t tell you the charges,
we can’t show you the evidence,
we can’t tell you when your case will be heard,
we can’t tell you where the court will be,
we can’t tell your family you’ve been arrested,
we can’t tell you what sentence you are facing,
we can’t let you confront the witnesses against you,
we can’t let you question our authority before an appellate court . . .”

Although I am personally convinced that Jose Padilla is a mass murder waiting to happen. Your post exactly describes the nether world he has been consigned to.

The US shoulf build what ever criminal case it has a against him, and give the sick bastard a trial. I don’t care if they charge him with driving without a seatbelt. No one should be held for years without charges or trial.

How do I know that? I read it in the constitution. I read it in Title 28 of the US Code. I read in my 4th grade socailstudies book.

Sadly looseheadprop, I don’t think Alberto Gonzales and George Bush read any of those…

Wow! I didn’t know Canada was afflicted with the same American hysteria surrounding Japanse immigrants after Pearl Harbor. The story of Kobi Kobiyashi is touching.

When I was first out of college I worked with a Japanese-American (a nissei) who had been interned as a child. It was so shocking to me because WWII was history, and right there was a woman who had been forcibly moved to the midwest after the war, after living in civil arrest because her parents came from Japan.

I found out on the occasion of the American apology and token payment for their economic losses. She was rather tightly wound, but when she was telling us about this experience, and how the money was only a token, she looked like a house of cards about to collapse. I can close my eyes and see her face now.

This was one of the most egregious acts of cowards in our modern history, and I’m afraid we haven’t learned.

Is the book available as an audio book? There’s just too much too read, but time enough to be read to.

Not so much a question but more a comment. With the advent of the phone and internet spying on American citizens, it seems the gov’t is attempting to lockdown citizens in modern day internment camps. You cannot have private communication with people in certain countries without big brother listening over your shoulder. There’s no one (yet) being forced to physically move or begin laboring on behalf of the country, but this communication imprisonment while still being forced to pay taxes to bankroll the spying efforts is more than suspect in my mind.

The justification for the spying on Americans is always to prevent another 9/11. The apparent need to monitor every citizen is a colossal paranoia which I believe to be what caused the Japanese internment camps along with the McCarthy Red Scare. How much farther will the 9/11 paranoia go until people realize that it is unjust paranoia? Gov’t agencies do need to sharpen their intel skills and protect it’s citizens, but not at the expense of citizens’ individual, private, civil rights.

Thanks for your reply David. I believe that much of the executive branch security apparatus, both illegal and legal, is being put in place for the eventuality of another terrorist attack. But who knows what it might be used for?

I found it very disconcerting, for instance, to read that the legislation that’s been put forth by the justice department in light of the recent supreme court decision, explictly states that the government should have the right to use these “tribunals” for people not suspected of direct ties to terrorism. Why would they need such a thing? It’s not as if we don’t already have a fully functional, highly developed judicial system.

Oh, Alberto read them. In fact Alberto like to talk about his two, count two, paperback copies of the US constitution that he keeps with him at all times. He refers to them daily, or so he brags.

Alberto is worse to me than Shrub because ALberto repeatedly demonstates that he knows better tha to do what he is doing.

He knows how purly evil his bahavior is, but sells out anyway.

that’s “purely evil” not purly evil.

i can’t get edit comments to work

lhp –

Yeah, I had that social studies book too. When I read Kafka in my high school German class, I never thought I’d need him to describe the actions of the US Government.

But kevin’s right – I don’t think Gonzales or Bush read it. There are some DOD lawyers who have, though, and they’re gumming up the works of the steamroller from 1600 PA Ave.

Frankly, I can’t figure out which is more evil: having read and studied the constitution and selling out anyway or being an elected President (and sworn to uphold it) who just can’t be bothered to read it.

HeirofPatriots @ 48

Is the book available as an audio book? There’s just too much too read, but time enough to be read to.

I second that. Rebuilding here in New Orleans…but I can always listen while I work.

timewarp @ 54

Frankly, I can’t figure out which is more evil: having read and studied the constitution and selling out anyway or being an elected President (and sworn to uphold it) who just can’t be bothered to read it.

Talk about the evil of two lessers!

looseheadprop @ 49

Oh, Alberto read them. In fact Alberto like to talk about his two, count two, paperback copies of the US constitution that he keeps with him at all times. He refers to them daily, or so he brags….

so are his printed on Charmin or Cottenelle? or one of each?

Well, see, now that’s part of the problem.

Last fall, I was invited to speak at a small tech university in the southwest. At one point, I found myself on a panel discussing how one interprets and verifies mediated experience. There were about 150 students in the audience, and the conversation was long and lively.

About halfway through, though, the other panelists (which included a lawyer from Cato and a PBS producer) and I began to realize: nobody in the audience seemed to understand the first thing about the Bill of Rights. Finally, I asked: “Show of hands. Who here took a course in civics or government in high school?”

Out of 150 people, three hands went up. All of them belonged to faculty members over 30.

Evidently, civics teachers are among the casualties of years of pressure on school district budgets. One of the benefits of draining Norquist’s bathtub is that young citizens are no longer being taught about either the rights or the responsiblities of citizenship. We’ve got a whole generation of Americans who are just clueless about what the Constitution means, or how their government works.

I think this may have been the single most frightening moment I had in all of 2005.

I found it very disconcerting, for instance, to read that the legislation that’s been put forth by the justice department in light of the recent supreme court decision, explictly states that the government should have the right to use these “tribunals” for people not suspected of direct ties to terrorism. Why would they need such a thing? It’s not as if we don’t already have a fully functional, highly developed judicial system.

Actually, I think this is an artifact of the current administration, and creeping government overreach more than anything else.

When making a legal argument in this context, one normally takes the most favorable position possible, asking for everything one can. It is fully normal to make contradictory arguments, so long as they’re severable, in hopes of getting one of them to work. So overreach is predictable. What is creepy is that this lot actually attempts to expoit any overreach, and then pushes for more.

Speaking of social studies books… I teach high school social studies (US History & Civics). Do you want to know how frustrating it is to teach kids our country has a core belief in “rule of law” and such with all this going on now?

They ask – isn’t X illegal according to our book?
I say – yes, at least as far as I interpret the Constitution
They ask – so what give?
I say – well, who is going to punish the law breaker.

It leads to a good conversation about checks and balances, but it’s sad.

looseheadprop @ 52

that’s “purely evil” not purly evil.

i can’t get edit comments to work

looseheadprop, I’ve heard several times in the last few days that the edit feature doesn’t work in IE, but works fine in Firefox.

David Neiwert 30 — it does seem as if all of this is in place in anticipation of something to come. Maybe it’s just paranoia, but 9/11 was such a boon for the authoritarians and kleptocrats and it caught them unprepared. That they would not put something in place to be able to take full advantage of another to seize and retain power just does not seem very Republican.

HeirofPatriots, the paranoia in Canada was similar to that in the US–keep in mind we had already been at war for two years in Europe. In many ways, the Canadian internment was worse than it was in the US. In the US many internees lost their homes to unscrupulous neighbors and local authorities, but the government provided food and shelter in the camps. In Canada everything the internees owned was confiscated by the government to pay for their room and board in the camps.

Mrs. Robinson @ 56

Well, see, now that’s part of the problem.

… nobody in the audience seemed to understand the first thing about the Bill of Rights. Finally, I asked: “Show of hands. Who here took a course in civics or government in high school?”

Out of 150 people, three hands went up. All of them belonged to faculty members over 30.

Evidently, civics teachers are among the casualties of years of pressure on school district budgets. One of the benefits of draining Norquist’s bathtub is that young citizens are no longer being taught about either the rights or the responsiblities of citizenship. We’ve got a whole generation of Americans who are just clueless about what the Constitution means, or how their government works….

NCLB strikes yet again

David –

Though I can’t stick around right now to follow this discussion as it happens, I want to thank you — again — for all you do.

The information you provide on your website is SO important, even if it is frequently very scary. You shine a light in the dark corners. Sounds like God’s work to me.

Thank you Kevin for the wonderful story of Kobi’s Sakura, I’ll remember him every time I see the cherry trees in bloom. Thank you also David for telling this sad story. Peace be with you both.

David, you do incredible work. Your taking Malkin out to the woodshed with her recent wad of toilet paper she calls a book was superb.

Just read the AP story referred to by the Left Coaster, where Bush wants congress to authorize him to federalize the National Guard. Needless to say the state governors are not to happy with this idea. It’s a cute way for Bush to have a militarized national police force without having to deal with the Posse Comitatus act of 1876(?).

Mrs. Robinson @ 58

Evidently, civics teachers are among the casualties of years of pressure on school district budgets. One of the benefits of draining Norquist’s bathtub is that young citizens are no longer being taught about either the rights or the responsiblities of citizenship. We’ve got a whole generation of Americans who are just clueless about what the Constitution means, or how their government works.

I think this may have been the single most frightening moment I had in all of 2005.

Mrs. Robinson, I had the same feeling when I realized through my sixteen year old son that Civics was no longer a required subject in the public schools.

fishbane @ No. 16 –

One of the reasons I keep harping on eliminationism at my blog is the recognition that it’s an ancient impulse woven into our histories. It’s true of mankind in general (see the various genocides around the world throughout history), but it’s especially true of American history.

Eliminationism was the raw impulse that drove the European subjugation of the native Indians, beginning with the pre-colonial Spaniards and continuing through the Indian wars of the 1800s. It manifested itself in the Klan violence and “lynching era,” as well as Jim Crow segregation in the South and the phenomenon of “Sundown Towns” across much of the rest of the nation. It was the driving force behind the anti-Chinese and anti-Japanese agitation that culminated in the internment. And it’s the chief reason we have continuing outbreaks of hate crimes today.

Of course, confronting these subjects is never terribly popular with the American public (probably one reason I’ve had trouble even getting my books reviewed). I think Americans are wedded to a self-image of themselves as unflaggingly good, and it’s a natural impulse to turn away from looking at the historical truths that tell us otherwise.

Mrs. Robinson @ 56

About halfway through, though, the other panelists (which included a lawyer from Cato and a PBS producer) and I began to realize: nobody in the audience seemed to understand the first thing about the Bill of Rights. Finally, I asked: “Show of hands. Who here took a course in civics or government in high school?”

Out of 150 people, three hands went up. All of them belonged to faculty members over 30.

Evidently, civics teachers are among the casualties of years of pressure on school district budgets. One of the benefits of draining Norquist’s bathtub is that young citizens are no longer being taught about either the rights or the responsiblities of citizenship. We’ve got a whole generation of Americans who are just clueless about what the Constitution means, or how their government works.

I think this may have been the single most frightening moment I had in all of 2005.

I have been of the opinion that this and this alone (whether consciously understood and acknowledged or not) was the point of Prop 13 and other similar tax “relief” measures. Replace a real education (particurly re science and history) with advertising and in about 30-40 years you have a malleble population who will vacuously allow their rights to be swiped right out from under their nose as long as they get to go to the mall for a big mac a few times a week.

Steve at 68

Got a link?

Mrs. Robinson at 58.

You’ve hit a really big nail smack on the head. The lack of education and understanding of the basic tenets of America. A population that doesn’t know or value the constitution and the bill of rights really helps the likes of Gonzales and Bush and many more authoritarians–from redneck sheriffs on up to do what they do. Here in NYC we have a mayor who seems to not understand the first amendment.

Kevin, that was a wonderful introduction. Mr. Neiwert, thank you for being here. After reading the discussion, I realized I needed to buy your book. Should be here next week.

Matt O. @ 65

David, you do incredible work. Your taking Malkin out to the woodshed with her recent wad of toilet paper she calls a book was superb.

Wait a danged minute, I don’t want that harpy stinking up http://kevinswoodshed.blogspot.com/

What I found curious about the entire episode of the internment of the Japanese populations of both the US and Canada was that they alone as a race were singled-out.

While there were immigrant Germans and Italians imprisoned in both countries, entire communities were not depopulated and no specific order existed to control their lives any more than any other citizen.

Granted, the US suffered a direct attack, but in truth, it had lost people to German attacks prior to Pearl Harbor, yet, no round-up of German-Americans took place.

Today, the same suggestions are being made. If an American or, to a slightly lesser degree, a Canadian, is visibly Arabic or Latino, the level of suspicion immediately rises among those who view all Arabs as Muslim extremists or all Mexican-Americans as illegal immigrants.

And, if I actually have a point here, it’s that the whole process then, and if it ever happens again, is based soley on a visible racial difference.

I haven’t had a chance to read your book yet David, but I’ve ordered it and look forward to getting into it. Thanks!

Christy @ No. –

I’ve had the opportunity since the book was published to meet many, many other people who both were interned and whose lives were impacted by it all. Probably the richest of these came when I was invited to speak last January at the Japanese American National Museum. But in many cases my encounters have just happened at book signings.

Pretty universally, I’m thanked profusely for writing the book and “getting it right.” I’m also thanked for taking on Malkin.

You know, most of my interviewees were eager to participate because they all realized, I think, that their stories would be lost when they died. And a lot of the people I’ve met have been grateful simply that the story was told, pretty much along those same lines. My sense is that wasn’t so much cathartic at it was affirming for them.

Incidentally, the “for their own good” argument was the view expressed by Rep. Coble back in 2002 that got this whole ball rolling. Malkin says in her book that she got interested in the subject from reading the dialogues between Eric Muller and Sgt. Stryker over those remarks.

looseheadprop @ 72

Steve at 68

Got a link?

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/…..ry_id=8388

To Dave at the Galloping Beaver (74) thanks for coming by and thanks again for promoting the discussion on your excellent blog.

As far as internment being race-based, as David Neiwert said it all goes back to out collective fear of the “other” that has been a big part of North American culture from the start. My hope is that as our societies become more and more multicultural and less homogeneous, we realize that we are the other and they are us.

looseheadprop at 73 http://www.theleftcoaster.com

Thank You David and Kevin for this excellent work. Being Native American I can more than relate to what happened and continues to happen to this day. It’s heartbreaking and we are blessed that you are making sure it is well documented, not forgotten, or acceptable.

We need peace on earth, some of these whacko people mistreating everyone need to find the earth first. Perhaps after that they can work on finding their ass and their minds since they lost their hearts while they were at it.

Beautiful post, Kevin. Thanks!

Jane Hamsher @ 63

David Neiwert 30 — it does seem as if all of this is in place in anticipation of something to come. Maybe it’s just paranoia, but 9/11 was such a boon for the authoritarians and kleptocrats and it caught them unprepared. That they would not put something in place to be able to take full advantage of another to seize and retain power just does not seem very Republican.

Or announce to the world that we’re rushing a new shipment of “smart bombs” to Israel as an invitation to another terrorist attack.

Why not just paint big ol’ targets on the rooftops of every city?

If we send enough of those bombs, fast enough, maybe Al Quaeda will get the hint before the November elections.

(Sarcasm off . . . I think)

Dave: Thanks for your book and all the work you do. We had a guest speaker from Rwanda tonight at church, and he knew first hand what fear of the “other” can do. He lost both his parents, 2 sisters and 3 brothers to the Hutu slaughter in ‘94.

That our government would seek to divide us even more by turning us against each other makes me all the more determined to work towards a society in which equality and social justice are once again cherished and respected values.

Incredible amount of talent assembled at this blog. Mr. Niewert, Ms. Hamsher, Mrs. Smith and the astonishing Digby. One thing sure about history–we’re bound to repeat it. The pot is on a slow boil right now, for sure.

David: Thanks for responding. The Sundown town thing was something I actually thought was relegated to the past… sad. I find it interesting that you mention the revisionist, Americans Are Always Right thing – that was part of what I was getting at with a comparison of Germany. The ability, as a culture (not to mention a body politic), to admit to causing harm and make efforts to not do so again seems to me to be vital, and something the US, as an entity, lacks. This is very ingrained, from highschool history lessons on through knee-jerk politics.

I feel that even if one puts aside moral questions, this sort of group dynamic is self-defeating, and will break the country. Maybe living in NYC has caused some of this, but co-existing with cultures you don’t fully understand leads you to a very, for wont of a better word, libertarian view. That others use zenophobia and hate for power sucks, but one can predict it – as you say, it is universal currency, right up there with shame and sex.

I just hate the idea that the US is going to do something really awful before it learns a lesson similar to Germany’s.

David, you’ve done a lot more research on the internement than most people, maybe you can answer this question. Was there much resistance to the idea of internment on the part of the general public? I know that some, like Miller Freeman, championed the idea. And I know that FDR had his share of detractors before and during the war, but was there any public opposition to the internment order? I’ve poked around a bit on the internet, but can’t seem to find much of an answer.

What was the term used to refer to the Japanese-American’s, third column? fourth column? Can someone shed some light on that phrase for me?

David, which give you more enjoyment writing books or writing on your blog, Orcinus?

Oilfieldguy @ 87

What was the term used to refer to the Japanese-American’s, third column? fourth column? Can someone shed some light on that phrase for me?

fifth columnists

kevin wood @ 92

Oilfieldguy @ 87

What was the term used to refer to the Japanese-American’s, third column? fourth column? Can someone shed some light on that phrase for me?

fifth columnists

Is there a short answer to fifth column of what?

Galloping Beaver is correct — racism was central to the Japanese internments.

In LIFE Magazine of 12/22/41, the Speaking of Pictures section features editorial cartoons from around the country, and the racist imagery is still shocking.

On page 81, LIFE has an article describing the physical differences between the Chinese and Japanese. The graphics point to large differences, while the text speaks of millimeters. Chinese Americans were attacked after Pearl Harbor, just as Sikh Americans were attacked after 9/11.

To it’s credit, this issue of LIFE also has some beautiful Asian watercolors — The Story of Christ in Chinese Art.

So it has always been in America: the impulse to confine, expel, or exterminate the “Other” — co-existing side by side with the belief in our common humanity.

Are we nearing six degrees of seperation?

5th column info

Oilfieldguy @ 90

kevin wood @ 92

Oilfieldguy @ 87

What was the term used to refer to the Japanese-American’s, third column? fourth column? Can someone shed some light on that phrase for me?

the phrase comes from the Spanish Civil War

http://www.answers.com/topic/fifth-column

fifth columnists

Is there a short answer to fifth column of what?

ck

As a young country, I think we are still all id.

OFG –

The term “fifth column” came out of the Spanish Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column

Beef –

Blogging and book writing are, experientially, worlds apart as far as publishing goes. One is immediate and gets little editing, but the immediacy is what gives it life. The other is painfully slow and exactingly edited, but is also something of real substance when you’re done.

I like doing both and would hate to give up either. In fact, I find them kind of complementary.

Spudboy at 71

“I think Americans are wedded to a self-image of themselves as unflaggingly good, and it’s a natural impulse to turn away from looking at the historical truths that tell us otherwise. “

This is the glue that holds all our ignorance together. And when I say ignorance I’m talking about ignorance of ourselves — even more than our ignorance of others.

Thanks Kevin and *ilson. Sometimes I forget all these kewl search tubes hooked up to the innernets. (hand smacks forehead)

David Neiwert @ 100

Beef –

Blogging and book writing are, experientially, worlds apart as far as publishing goes. One is immediate and gets little editing, but the immediacy is what gives it life. The other is painfully slow and exactingly edited, but is also something of real substance when you’re done.

Improv vs. Feature film. One has an audience for immediate feedback, the other is toil in the dark (so to speak) Bravo– alittle of each.

I like doing both and would hate to give up either. In fact, I find them kind of complementary.

i think Mr. Ehrenstein is on to something here. It is the close up examination of that ignorance, the warts-and-all examination of history that makes conservatives uncomfortable and start hollering that someone hates America because they insist on examining the real history of the treatment of Native Americans (or the real history of any colonial power) – a history that does not make the nation look heroic.

Wikipedia excerpts on Fifth Column –

A fifth column is a group of people which clandestinely undermines a larger group to which it is expected to be loyal, such as a nation.

The term originated with a 1936 radio address by Emilio Mola, a Nationalist general during the 1936-39 Spanish Civil War. As four of his army columns moved on Madrid, the general referred to his militant supporters within the capital as his “fifth column,” intent on undermining the Republican government from within (see also Siege of Madrid (1936-39)).

The term is also used in reference to a population who are assumed to have loyalties to countries other than the one in which they reside, or who support some other nation in war efforts against the country they live in. …

Today it has a pejorative connotation, whereas partisan can be considered a positive or negative term. Resistance movements are looked upon more favourably than fifth columnists, but it can be argued that there is an overlap between the two.

kevin @ 89 –

There was a certain amount of resistance. Agricultural specialists, for instance, warned that locking away the Japanese farmers would critically affect our wartime food production, and they were right. They were pooh-poohed by jingoes who accused the critics of “selling Americans short.”

Similarly, there was some resistance from academic liberals and civil libertarians. In Seattle, for instance, there was a large pocket of anti-internment sentiment mostly centered around the University of Washington.

And then there were folks like Walt Woodward, the publisher of the Bainbridge Island newspaper, who took a very public stance editorially and otherwise against the internment. It’s worth noting that he largely had the support of the Bainbridge community.

All these people were shouted down by the dominant hysterical chorus of accusation: “Jap lover!”

The 21st-century version: “Traitor!”

Good Stuff. It is important to remember our past and it is interesting and sad how we’ve regressed as an American society since the year 2000. The dumbing down of education in our schools was occurring before 2000, but it has worsened.
I am conviced that this dumbing down is a part of a strategic right wing plot. I have my tinfoil helmet on. Another good history book I like is Ward Churchill’s “A Little Matter Of Genocide”.

Mr. Ehrenstein may have a point. I tend to feel, as a nation, we are here:

Id

In psychoanalytic theory, the division of the psyche that is totally unconscious and serves as the source of instinctual impulses and demands for immediate satisfaction of primitive needs.

kevin wood @ 104

i think Mr. Ehrenstein is on to something here. It is the close up examination of that ignorance, the warts-and-all examination of history that makes conservatives uncomfortable and start hollering that someone hates America because they insist on examining the real history of the treatment of Native Americans (or the real history of any colonial power) – a history that does not make the nation look heroic.

It’s called a classic defensive reaction. An ego that is too weak to allow for the examination and acknowledgement of error or flaw. So to keep guilt and the pain of the experience of one’s imperfection at bay denial and attacking are employed. The more the truth threatens to seep in, the greater and more hysterlcal the defense becomes. This is all in defense of the ego which is threatened with collapse if it it feels itself exposed.

This should be the most interesting thread in the blogosphere.

Rove vs. America. He can put us in camps with words. Will we let him?

David Neiwert @ 103

kevin @ 89 –

There was a certain amount of resistance. Agricultural specialists, for instance, warned that locking away the Japanese farmers would critically affect our wartime food production, and they were right. They were pooh-poohed by jingoes who accused the critics of “selling Americans short.”

Similarly, there was some resistance from academic liberals and civil libertarians. In Seattle, for instance, there was a large pocket of anti-internment sentiment mostly centered around the University of Washington.

And then there were folks like Walt Woodward, the publisher of the Bainbridge Island newspaper, who took a very public stance editorially and otherwise against the internment. It’s worth noting that he largely had the support of the Bainbridge community.

All these people were shouted down by the dominant hysterical chorus of accusation: “Jap lover!”

The 21st-century version: “Traitor!”

And if you oppose the interment of Japanese Arabs you are objectively pro-terrorist, right? Civil libertarians and academics sounds depressingly like what the FOX news description of the left blogosphere will be when the next internment is opposed

Sharkbabe,
Will we let him?
Bush don’t need no stinking warrants!

Re: Kevin at 101:

The conservative passion with blaming the messenger has the net effect, over time, of depriving the national character of necessary growth and depth. Confronting your failures and learning from them is the very essence of maturity — whether you’re an individual or a country. We’ve never been called up on to do much of that, and I think we are moral children as a result.

Europeans can’t hide from their past. You can’t go 20 clicks in Europe without confronting some piece of the long past that convicts your ancestors of some heinous evil — a battlefield, a church, a castle or prison, a town square. I think growing up European must involve a lot of coming to terms with that past. You learn young to bless the struggle that brought you to this place, while accepting both the good and the bad that came out of it. In the process, you become a moral grown-up.

The American landscape does not convict us to anywhere near the same degree (though I think it’s beginning to, and our children and grandchildren will be forced to confront the soullessness of much of what we’ve built. But that’s another topic). The natives vanished without leaving much in the way of traces. The trees that once bore strange fruit are now forgotten. Even the internment camps have vanished without much of a trace: growing up near Manzanar, the most striking remaining sign of the camp was row upon row of trees growing up out of the sagebrush. The buildings were gone, leaving the internees’ own gardens as the only hint of what had once been there.

We have a short national memory, in part, because we’ve been allowed to escape history so many times, and have almost never been called to reckon with the results of our choices. No wonder all these older cultures look at us like we’re children. In many important ways, we are.

Christ. We learned in grade school that we were the good guys and we accepted it as fact.
The only people who realize the truth – that we were the bad guys – are people who have sought out higher learning through reading. These people are few in number. I find some solace in knowing that I am in the company of such thoughtful individuals here.

It’s true of mankind in general (see the various genocides around the world throughout history), but it’s especially true of American history.

I’ve been thinking about this a bit. While I don’t discount or disagree with most of what you say, I wonder if, in fact, it is especially true of American history. The Koreans, the Japanese, the Germans, the Serbs, even the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds all have trended to worse provocations, in terms of body counts. The US is clearly not blameless, and has done a number of awful things as an entity, and we share a country with a large number of (variously) antisemites, anti-latinos, klan members, etc.

I guess I just wonder if you truly feel that we’re exceptional when compared to, say, Cambodia. I’m not by any stretch making a defense of the behaviour we’ve seen in our past – I’m only questioning the exceptionality.

It’s not that we’re better or worse. It’s just getting Americans to realize that we are no different, either.

Mrs. Robinson, #110 is one heck of a post, do you mind if I quote that in my report on this discussion at the Woodshed?

Mrs. Robinson,

Europeans can’t hide from their past. You can’t go 20 clicks in Europe without confronting some piece of the long past that convicts your ancestors of some heinous evil — a battlefield, a church, a castle or prison, a town square.

It seems like I saw somewhere that the distance from Tehran to Tel Aviv is 988 miles.

Not at all. In fact, I’d be delighted.

I think there are two things that make us exceptional:

– We keep changing the target, the Name of the Other, to fit the circumstances. This is not typical of most historical purges. And it suggests that the eliminationism represents a deeper impulse.

– Unlike other nations, we pronounce a national ethos to the world proclaiming “all men are created equal.” In fact, much of our claim to national superiority is predicated on this claim. Of course, how well we have lived up to it is another matter.

David, the reason I asked that question is your book Strawberry Days seems like it must have been a bit emotionally draining whereas your post Bottom Feeders must have been somewhat entertaining. I was thinking your blog might be sort of a hobby and a release to the more exacting demands of publishing a book

You writing is superb and you are in good company on this blog.

Thanks to all for an interesting Sunday afternoon

Dave Neiwert, thanks for all the great passion and good information you bring to topics of the past that possess a sad resonance in the present. We all need to be inspired by an honest telling of the past to prevent the evil we saw then recurring again in the future.

Living in a state somewhere between Colorado and Nevada, I am amazed the locals have so little knowledge of how so many of the older Japanese ended up here .

the notion of coming to terms as a nation with the evils committed in the past is something that Germany has accomplished with regards to the Nazi era, and that Britain has begun to do with its colonial period. The US was heading in that direction at one time regarding the treatment of indigenous people and even Vietnam, but has backpedalled futher into denial in the last 20 years. I currently live in Japan, where denial of the evils of the past is sort of the national pastime for many, especially those in power. I’d hate to see the United States come to think of their adventurism in Vietnam and Iraq and the genocide practiced against the Sioux and other tribes in a heroic light.

As I am sure everyone is aware, today is the the anniversary of the bombing of HIROSHIMA.

David Neiwert @ 120

I think there are two things that make us exceptional:

– We keep changing the target, the Name of the Other, to fit the circumstances. This is not typical of most historical purges. And it suggests that the eliminationism represents a deeper impulse.

– Unlike other nations, we pronounce a national ethos to the world proclaiming “all men are created equal.” In fact, much of our claim to national superiority is predicated on this claim. Of course, how well we have lived up to it is another matter.

We need to turn it over to the chicks. Us fellows have been doing such a bang-up job. Maybe we should focus on supply lines and let the ladyfolk run stuff for awhile.

Unlike other nations, we pronounce a national ethos to the world proclaiming “all men are created equal.” In fact, much of our claim to national superiority is predicated on this claim. Of course, how well we have lived up to it is another matter.

That the Declaration of Independence was written by a Virginia slaveholder, whose emancipation intentions were trumped by his creditors, goes to the heart of the American dilemma — even when our hearts are in the right place, our better angels are often trumped by greed and hatred.

So, one more terrorist attack and they might start rounding up Ayrabs? Or maybe just all Brown people?

So, one more terrorist attack and they might start rounding up Ayrabs? Or maybe just all Brown people?

Ayrabs, Brown People — and Liberals . . .

Kevin, I’d argue that that very willingness to come to terms with the past — which was widening through the 50s and 60s — was completely shattered by Vietnam. That was the first one that we couldn’t spin as heroic, not anyway you turned it. It just got stuck in the national psyche, and curdled. As it festered, it also fed the rise of the conservatives (who were offering sweet denial as a faux antidote).

Many smart historians have pointed out that Iraq I and II are simply Vietnam, redux. Forty years later, we are STILL working that one out. There is nothing in our national narrative or experience that would teach us to process that kind of failure. So we will continue to be stuck with it (and probably keep repeating it) until the lesson gets learned.

Going back even farther, there were some serious lessons from the Civil War that went similarly unlearned for the same reason. And we’re still fighting that one 140 years later, too.

Lordy, we are SO not good at this.

re:changing the target
absolutely! America needs an enemy, a threat to unify the population and get them to rally round the flag. First it was the British, then the Indians, then the Mexicans, then the Irish and European immigrants, then the Jews, then the Reds, then the Germans and Japanese, then the Reds again, now its the Arabs and the Mexicans (again)

And the notion that America is somehow different from all the other nations before it that had enemies because it is free democracy is what is used to justify conquest as liberation. The United States didn’t conquer the Philippines or Nicaragua or Panama – it “liberated” them. Just like it is “liberating” Iraq now and one day will “liberate” Cuba.

I do think there would be an increased discussion of “security threats” and who they are. And, given the expansiveness of this administration, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a shifting definition of what constitutes an “enemy combatant.” Given the wide circulation of the Ann Coulter/Michael Savage theme that “liberals” are the real “threat from within,” things could get interesting.

BTW, this is a bit off-topic, but of the moment….

As I write this, I’m watching CBC news — which is broadcasting, live, the arrival home of the four Canadians killed in Afghanistan. The Governor-General of Canada, along with the Defense Minister, are there. The coffins are being brought off the plane as I write this, escorted by an honor guard and a bagpiper. This broadcast is a special report, pre-empting the CBC’s regular programming. In other words, they are treating it like NEWS.

In five years, no American TV network has done this for a single American soldier. They have not even paused their schedules for a minute in honor of our fallen troops. Bush and Rumsfeld have also never bestirred themselves to attend such an event, even though they are now occuring daily. We have not been permitted to see their coffins at all.

The Canadians may have treated their Japanese like shit — but they still remember how to treat their fallen dead. I am in tears now, so proud of the basic decency of my adopted country.

Gee, just when I thought things couldn’t get any worse, they do.

Mrs. Robinson at 4:48 pm –

People will always gravitate towards a simplistic black-and-white answer, instead of a more complex shades-of-gray analysis — especially when the simplistic answer exonerates the individual or group, and puts the blame on the Other.

Which is why I think the Democrats need to blame the GOP for the screwed up mess we are in; if we try to be pure, the GOoPer pitch to the reptilian brain will trump the Democrats cerebral approach.

I enjoy these threads. intelligent conversation is rare in my circles. One guy got pissed with people comparing Iraq to Vietnam. One is a jungle, one is a desert–no comparison.

David Neiwert @ 131

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a shifting definition of what constitutes an “enemy combatant.”

The admin’s proposed response to Hamdan already expands what they would like to do. The basic rights of citizenship therein are assaulted.

In January 2001, I said that if Bush were allowed to occupy the White House, there would be tanks in the streets before he left.

It was intended as hyperbole — little did I realize how close to the mark the prediction would be.

I think this administration has given permission to a lot of people to cloak their prejudice and outright racism in a mantle of national security. This has worked quite well for them on so many levels, but it is disturbing to realize that this is an actual strategy, the end game of which is consolidation of power and the siliencing of criticism.

It’s so chilling I have to force myself to think about it at times, when the temptation is to close my eyes and put my fingers in my ears.

Anne, you’re right. Just look at the terms the Minutemen couch their arguements in — they like to claim their efforts are being made to secure the borders to ensure that terrorists don’t slip in among the illegal brown immigrants

– Unlike other nations, we pronounce a national ethos to the world proclaiming “all men are created equal.” In fact, much of our claim to national superiority is predicated on this claim. Of course, how well we have lived up to it is another matter.

This makes sense to me. (I’m not sure that other states haven’t done similar shifting of targets, as local politics changed.)

We, as a nation, really need to rationalize rhetoric with intent.

How different are Bush’s signing statements that theoretically grant the administration an exception to the law being signed from Roosevelt’s executive order 9066 that ordered the internment?
Is there no constitutional check on the content of excutive orders?

Oilfieldguy @ 125

David Neiwert @ 120

I think there are two things that make us exceptional:

– We keep changing the target, the Name of the Other, to fit the circumstances. This is not typical of most historical purges. And it suggests that the eliminationism represents a deeper impulse.

– Unlike other nations, we pronounce a national ethos to the world proclaiming “all men are created equal.” In fact, much of our claim to national superiority is predicated on this claim. Of course, how well we have lived up to it is another matter.

We need to turn it over to the chicks. Us fellows have been doing such a bang-up job. Maybe we should focus on supply lines and let the ladyfolk run stuff for awhile.

OFG: I think I love you.

well, according to Wikipedia there is no constitutional provision for executive orders at all and from the sounds of things a president with a complicit congress can do things that would make medieval kings jealous

Kevin Wood @64

I did forget the rest of the world had been at war for years before us.

Sharkbabe @ 110

Rove vs. America. He can put us in camps with words. Will we let him?

I almost posted earlier that Bush and the Rethugs could actually sink to rounding up registered Democrats – you know craZie dangerous left wing traitors who question his absolute presidential monarchy in a time of “war” – and physically put us in camps.

As someone else said, you’d think there’d have been some action to restore citizen’s Consitutional rights after Hamdan, but you’d be wrong. The right wing hate machine and corrupt media are geared up for just such an effort. A repeat of the shameful past isn’t beyond imaginiation.

new thread

Slightly OT, but several years ago David Niewert did a series on the Bush Family and the Nazis. While some believe BushCo has adopted the Joseph Goebbels playbook, that is only partially correct. George Herbert Walker was one of Hitler’s earliest American Financiers — and it didn’t stop there.

Bush, the Nazis and America — Part 1

David Neiwert,
I’m so happy to read your posts, thank you for your work.
Mrs. Robinson, about the Bill of Rights…
I had to educate my kids about it because they evidently did not learn about it at school. They’ve grown up with liberal parents but in a very conservative area of the state, and it was tough to watch some 60s protest footage on TV and have my boys ask if people were really allowed to do that.

ck, if we start looking at all the excellent work Dave Neiwert has done over the last few years at Orcinus and elsewhere, we could be here for days. When Jane described him as one of the crown jewels of the blogosphere, she wasn’t exaggerating in the least. Where many blogs tend to snark, hyperbole and opinionated musing (and I know mine certainly does) Orcinus is like a regular graduate seminar on civil liberties, racism and the role of fascism in current affairs. I’d put David’s work up there with guys like Krugman and Greg Palast. And I’m not just saying that because he and Jane invited me to take part here.

kevin –

I totally agree. Orcinius is one of my go-to blogs for serious journalism — the kind we almost never see in the Traditional Media anymore. The Right Wing Brown Shirt attacks on the Liberal Media have put our nation at peril.

In the 1940’s, the Republicans called FDR a dictator; it would seem that today’s Republicans have no problems with dictatorship, so long as the dictator is a Republican.

-ck-, just scanned your link and I’m not an expert. I just don’t want to turn this into another Walmart/Halliburton thing for Ned. I bet a lot of Morgan descendants supported Hitler in the early 30’s. With the collapse of the Weimar Republic (largely because of the gross unfairness of the Treaty of Versailles), the West, particularly the wealthy industrialists, were scared silly of Stalin. They weren’t so much supporting Hitler as enthusiastically opposing Stalin’s communism.
I suspect a lot of their financial support was less enthusiastic than someone like Charles Lindbergh who genuinely supported Hitler and his vision of Aryan Supremacy. I’m not sure where the Bush’s fit on the continuum, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of Ned’s ancestors were on it too.

BTW, your 126 at 4:45 was really something. It got me thinking FDL might be hosting your work sometime in the Book Salon.

I grew up in Bellevue, Washington in the 50’s and 60’s. The leading families in the town were the big owners of real estate. Niewert’s book has shined a new light on some of those families and their wealth to me; it was all obtained by ethnic cleansing of Japanese.

Just to echo Kevin Wood, while I might disagree on occasion, it is undeniably true that David is an asset to all of us. Even a libertarian like me can find enough common ground with him on Firedoglake. He’s doing important work that honest people can agree about. In fact, I fear he’s sort of a bellwether – the Malkins of the world ignore it, because they have no answer, while honest people listen and respond. When David gets less attention, all of us who worry about freedom should be worried.

i too grew up in bellevue in the 60’s and 70’s and i never heard word one about the internments in school or anywhere for that matter.