
At the beginning of the current cycle of violence between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, I took part in an email discussion where one participant expressed abject puzzlement over Israel’s strategy. What could Israel possibly hope to accomplish, given the most likely set of outcomes? I responded, and one other conversation participant encouraged me to publish my response. I did not deem my comment especially noteworthy, but the credibility and knowledge of the one encouraging me to make it public prompts me to quote it, by request:
I have a good friend who is a dual Israeli-American citizen with family in Haifa, or they were, until most got out this past week.He feels vaguely, not quite viscerally that Israel had to defend itself somehow, yet is nagged by the sense that Israel is making matters far worse. The sense I get is that the position you describe is reflexive, not actually reflective or even strategic. When I mentioned to him that the strategy Israel is pursuing has served to eliminate any group that could possibly be a negotiating partner lo these last decades, leaving none but the more extreme, he ruefully agreed.Based on one anecdotal conversation with one who is a very close friend, my thought is your question looks for strategic logic where there really has been little or none. The trauma of the Holocaust and other long history in the collective Israeli memory made aggressive, violent defense or preemptive defense axiomatic, largely unquestionable. Now we see the fruits of these choices, over and over and over (which is not to say the fruits were not visible far earlier).
The other night, while offering some light hearted Marx Brothers fare, I made some observations about what I’ll now call Post Traumatic Foriegn Policy Syndrome (PTFPS), and we are as afflicted by it as Israel is. Karl Rove has famously accused the American left of wanting to take the country into therapy after 9/11, and in so doing has cowed many from making the argument that a bit of self-reflection and sober strategic assessment are necessary given the changing face of modern war.
The simple fact is, superpowers are in some ways obsolete: using a powerful state military against an entrenched and locally popular guerilla force is the best way to destroy said military. Having a powerful military is, in this context, a liability, because having it tempts you to use it, thereby furthering the ends of your guerilla or terrorist attackers. Al Qaeda and Hezbollah know this. It’s about time we, and Israel, figured this out.
Sun Tzu recognized that when you are fighting on unfavorable ground and outnumbered, the best thing to do is retreat and shore up your alliances. This simply represents strategic good sense. Fighting wars of occupation against poor people whose populations largely support guerillas means fighting on just such unfavorable ground. As counter-intuitive as this may seem, the best strategic choice is not to take the bait, but to stand firm within your borders, look to your defenses and shore up your alliances.
I consider it a mark of loyalty, a mark of patriotism, to point this out to my own country when we are grinding our own military into the dust, or perhaps I should say, into the sand. I consider it the act of a friend to help my friend avoid making the same mistake. I’m an American progressive, and just as I consider it imperative to criticize the acts and choices of my own country at times, so too do I see it as an act of friendship to do the same for a state like Israel.
George Bush and the Republicans lack the sense or the will to do this, and so they are not friends of Israel. Bush and the Republicans lunge from international calamity to military catastrophe, leaving naught but carnage in their wake, destroying our alliances and our fighting forces all at once. We on the left value human life and the survival of free people, and so we are willing to say to Israel, stand down, for your own survival. Shore up your alliances; look to your defenses. Israel cannot win the population war in the region and is only acting so as to solidify the strength of its enemies into the next few generations, risking the viability of the state of Israel through the current century.
Republicans are not friends of Israel. On the contrary, we progressives are friends of Israel.
Related posts:
- Israel Gearing Up For Iran?
- Fox’s New Friend Stupak Says He’ll Take Down Health Bill over His Amendment
- Israel Defiant – Words or Deeds Mr. President?
- Mitt Romney: Scrapping Totally Pointless, Costly and Unnecessarily Provocative Bush Missile Shield is “Dangerous”
- Opposing Settlement Expansion: The New Anti-Semitism





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Zero
Colbert!
How come no one on this blog ever posts about…
oops, nevermind.
JANE!
PACH!
DARKBLACK!
Roots Amigos!
Bush and the Republicans lunge from international calamity to military catastrophe, leaving naught but carnage in their wake,
And they have the stones to call it foreign policy.
Deeply insightful.
I agree Pach.
Jewish Voice for Peace
“Opposed to Bombing Civilians? Sign Jewish Call to Action Petition”……
President Carter’s op-ed in the WaPo
Just got home from work — none of our home care patients have needed to be hospitalized from the heat — hooray! Amazing what can happen when a community takes the responsibility of checking in on others….uh, like the pups here!
Sorry, Pach, to go OT, but to update the Lamont resource page — if you want to train it in, you can get a connection in either Hartford or New Haven to the little train station in downtown Meriden — too long to walk, but a real short ride to Lamont HQ. You don’t have to figure out how to get from NH or H to Meriden.
Yesterday, the radio program On Point had a very interesting hour on Lamont/Lieb. Ned appeared, Lieb refused. The DLC guy is as annoying as they come — same talking points as the AP. Bill Curry, one guest, is one of Colin McEnroe’s buds and ran for gov in 04.
http://www.onpointradio.org/
Link to podcast is on front page — and no, you don’t need an MP-3 player. You can listen at your computer.
Bush’s diplomatic message to the Middle East: Democracy or die.
Excellent Pach! Wasn’t that easy? Now just send your friends a few more of your bombs and fighter jets so they can continue to feel secure in their self destructive behavior.
darkblack
On a more hopeful note: The Israeli-Palestinian Peace Blog aggregator.
you ready to be called anti-Semitic, Pach? I’ve made a number of similar arguments on other online discussion groups. I get a bit tired of, as you put it, the reflexive reaction. It stymies productive discussion.
Crap, local news got the Huff pic.
Republicans are not friends of America
SharonW, where are you and what did they say?
Pach has a phalanx of moderators standing at the ready for the AIPAC paratroopers winging their way here …
ps — I just like saying the word “phalanx”
You guys know of course, that I’m leaving soon. Here’s an excellent reason why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc9Fhn9BgWc
Great post Pach.
The straussian neo-cons are trying to stack the deck with fundamentalists, both Christian and Muslim, and it is a mad strategy, one that needs to be addressed.
Billmon’s posts today and yesterday highlight this.
and
Liberal secular society is the anethema of the ‘enlightened’ straussian neo-cons, their Nietzsche-ian nihilism needs to be dragged into the light.
*ilson46201 @ 17
So, I understand, does your postman.
Pach!
Darkblack!
No one has ever explained, satisfactorily to this “progressive”, (in the 60’s we were called radicals) why it’s fair for Israel to have a homeland and not the Palestinians. And the thing that really bothers is that Israel has all those nuclear weapons, and based upon Israel’s latest over-reactive and way over the top escapede in the Middle East, the nagging suspicion that Israel may at some time, perhaps in the near future, deploy them. And as for progressives being friends of Israel? Not so long ago I could have been called a major supporter of Israel. No longer is that the case. I will never, ever be a friend to mass murderers of any sort.
I’m in CT, New Haven suburb. It was WTNH the ABC local affliate.
Luckily, there was a lot of pro Lamont coverage before that. They interviewed Jesse Jackson.
They mentioned Jane as being a blogger and got a quote from Lieberman on how this is how nasty the hateful bloggers have gotten. They did say she was not associated with the Lamont campaign. They also said they tried to contact her, so I’d suggest she call them and explain.
I’m sorry it got a mention. Most certainly a Lieberkid found it and gave it to them. However, it didn’t really appear all that damaging. Just more like, oh look at what those nasty internets yield.
I should be able to find footage for you all shortly.
Perhaps Pach’s post should be classified so no rabid lamb will have documented support of a rational blog position. *shuddering*
immanentize @ 20
lmao
SharonW, you are a blessing. Thankyou very much.
John Casper 7 -
Thank you for posting the Carter piece. I’m sending it out.
OT – Thank you Marcy Winograd for the new, much improved and more like the old, Jane Harman.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..26330.html
Ok, so they should retreat and retrench from Israel to where exactly?
How many rockets do they have to accept before attacking? How much retaliation against those launching rockets is too much?
Then consider, 48 million Iranians 18 million Syrians vs 6 million Israelis. Did your proposal of litle, no, or “proportionate” response give Iran a good chance of removing Israel from the map (as their leader has advocated) with less than 25% casualties?
I’ll admit my Sun Tzu is rusty, but I can’t recall when he recommended allowing a foreign power to continuously attack your country unimpeded until everyone died… nor does that sound like the advice of a friend.
Unless you know of a way to stop rockets aside from taking out those launching rockets, the 1400 since the start of the Israel/Hezbollah incident seems questionable. Lebanon stated they were unwilling/unable to stop the attacks… so someone had to invade (or simply allow the attacks to continue).
Hopefully I’m never in a situation where I have to rely on “friends” like this to survive. If you’re proposing death over war I’m not impressed.
“Bush’s diplomatic message to the Middle East: Democracy or die.”
And the Left’s diplomatic message to Israel: die…
Eureka Springs, AR…3:11pm
Bull’s-eye.
You are very welcome JennyftB. Thank you for all you do.
Here’s the transcript.
Honestly, folks, it may have been all our public hand-wringing that notified the trolls. I think if something comes up that can be construed in a bad light, we’re better off emailing the ladies of the lake and leaving a note here saying to check their email.
I haven’t heard, but has George the President started his French style vacation yet, you know from the last weekend of July to the first weekend of Sept plus a couple of days and excursions only for fund raises?
And what about VP Dr Evil, where’s he at?
It might actually be better if both of them were out of town, they can always manage to make things worse.
At least we know Sec State Shoe Buyer is shuttling but shuttling to no ends.
lmao
SharonW @ 31
I doubt it. It was posted on HuffPo — a huge site, and there were negative comments there before anyone here even began to comment on it.
Well said, Pach.
SharonW @ 31
Bravo! I couldn’t agree more.
Oklahoma kiddo @
22
We are also mass murderers, of a kind, and certainly have been in our history. Let’s not oversimplify this. The state of Israel is an ally to the United States. Critcizing its policies, and our own, is all fair game.
christofay @ 32
Check my linky at 18. That explains it.
And the Left’s message to Israel: Without diplomacy far to many die..
Good post. The point is that Israel is perfectly correct, strategically and morally, to defend itself from attack. Vide its famous wars of the late sixties and early seventies.
When it faces guerilla warfare on its own territory (or occupied territories), unfortunately, it uses similar tactics, which is a huge blunder strategically. It would do much better to swallow its bile, and persist in diplomacy.
This is where the Shrub’s America has been a bad friend. Bill Clinton pushed a peace process which the Shrub abandoned, and the Hezbollah buildup of rockets and other arms in southern Lebanon roughly tracks that.
“…Karl Rove has famously accused the American left of wanting to take the country into therapy after 9/11, and in so doing has cowed many from making the argument that a bit of self-reflection and sober strategic assessment are necessary given the changing face of modern war.
The simple fact is, superpowers are in some ways obsolete: using a powerful state military against an entrenched and locally popular guerilla force is the best way to destroy said military.”
That is exactly right. To further explore how the 20th century made war obsolete, see Jonathan Schell’s excellent:
The Unconquerable World: Power, Nonviolence, and the Will of the People
Gekkobear at 28 –
I hear you. I am deeply involved with people in Haifa (which not enough know is the serious sister-city of Boston). But military reprisal — especially collective punishment does not make anyone safer. The reality of how this is shaking out is that Israel will be less secure than it was four weeks ago.
There are alternatives — negotiation, playing one group against another, eliminating the lies of Hezbollah by dealing honestly with the Palestinians, creating very strong trade ties with the Lebanese, seeking peace with the Syrians.
יִצְחָק רָבִּין
Understood this, but he was killed for that knowlesge.
Good points Pach.
The problem for Israel is that they have tried the military solution for 60 years. Yet they have not been able to achieve any kind of end game. The Palestinians not having any military balance have resorted to an insurgency that has morphed into inftifadas and suicide attacks. And now we have Hezbollah that was created as a resistance to Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon for 18 years. And that occupation was a result of the Palestinians being forced there as they had no real place of their own. And this endless cycle of violence with no positive outcome keeps going on.
The only party with any influence with Israel the US now eggs them on to perpetuate this escalating cycle of violence.
The bottom line is that Israel has got to come to terms with its surroundings. They have to recognize that the Arabs even though their extreme elements may claim to want to push them into the sea, cannot do so. Israel exists and will continue to exist. They also have to recognize that they cannot colonize the Arabs nor expel them as they have no where to go. They also have to recognize that 60 years of using massive military force means perpetual guerilla war forever. So until Israel accepts they will always exist and so will their Arab neighbors no movement in a postive direction will take place.
The Palestinians have already reconciled to the fact that Israel will always exist despite what Hamas’s platform states. Even Hamas will negotiate if the right deal is put in front of them. Howver, the longer they are forced to face collective punishment the more difficult the settlement.
What is required is for the US political establishment, meaning both parties, recognizing that cheerleading for Israeli military solutions only harms the real interests of the Israeli people. Until they can get out of the political calculations of the AIPAC lobby they cannot exercise real leadership and bring all sides to settlement based on reconciliation and forgiveness.
Where is a Mandela for Israel and Palestine?
Yeah, because Israel’s response has stopped the rocket attacks and cut off popular support for Hezbollah, all while prompting a massive international rush to come to Israel’s side.
Oh, wait. . .
Amit Joshi @ 40
very good insight, thanks — and welcome!
OT, with apologies.
Old Coastie:
While you’re in town, pick up a bottle of Vitamin B1 or a B-complex vitamin with at least 50 mg of B1.
Take one tablet and see if the mosquitoes don’t give you a wider berth.
Thought you guys might enjoy this:
Global Policy in 30 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59TeDyQz4_U
BTW, Pach, sorry for barging in with this Lamont stuff before saying what a wonderful post you made. You are 100% on the mark.
Even if the Israelis were to succeed in seriously damaging Hezbollah…at what cost? They’re doing worse damage to their reputation, solidifying the Arab community against them, and destroying a struggling country that had finally found some footing, not to mention all the death of innocents. Even a win would be a loss.
Hope at 18
intuition, deduction, or knowledge?
SharonW, I think it was Lieberman’s trolls who brought it to the thread, but I could be wrong, just a guess.
This is Lieberman’s “white supremacy” campaign for the General election in November
“Ned Lamont can have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton,” Liebermen said. “I’m proud to have had Bill Clinton, Senator Dodd, Senator Inouye, Senator Salazar and a lot of other great Democrats.”
IIRC, the term conservative originated with pro-segregation Democrats like Strom Thurmond who wanted to distance themselves from LBJ’s civil rights movement, but didn’t want to join George Wallace’s third-party. They called themselves, conservative Democrates. If Arthur Bremer had not shot Wallace, Humphrey would have beaten Nixon in ‘68.
The fundamental issue in the Midddle East is that Israel was
created in defiance of the Musllim world of which most of the
Muslim world still to this day does not accept the existence of
Israel and if they could they would destroy it. Witnerss the actions of
Hamas and Hezbollah. Even if Isreal withdrew to the 1967 borders
there still would not be peace. Even if a Palestinian state was in
existence there would still be a Hamas and Hezbollah out to destroy
Israel. Wake up folks, there is no solution to this intractable and
interminable horrific situation out there. I hate to say it but
the Iranien President is speaking the Islamic truth in regard to
Israel. If it should come to pass that Iran prevails then there will
be a second Holocaust of which I hate to say it, this time the dead
will not only be the Jews of Israel but many many Islamic citizens
of the cities of the Middle East. I wish I could see a way out of
this madness. What will it take for the Islamic people to come to
accept an Israel co-existing with them?
well said, and i’ve heard in various combinations a couple of times, but you have said it most plainly (which is the best way.
still, as rove knows, it’s hard to get past the emotions, the repitile brain, the need to STRIKE!
my comment has been sometimes you fight fire with fire, but pouring gasoline on it is probably not a good idea.
well, it’s obvious, but so is the reptile brain thing, and that requires no thought at all.
Perhaps seeing the Israeli response to Lebanon and to the Palestinians, the US response to Iraq and the continued threats to Syria and Iran there may be some Arabs and Muslims drawing a conclusion that the US and Israel have determined a final solution that includes eradicating Arabs and Muslims from the Middle East. The Michael Savage Doctrine if you will.
-GSD
Via Raw Story,
215 Hezbollah missiles hit Israel
Hezbollah missiles go farther; Israel says ‘We
can occupy Lebanon.’
http://rawstory.com/
timewarp, nice catch on the comments at Huffpo under Jane’s post.
OCSteve, was one of those. He used to comment at FDL, but he always pissed everyone off.
Pachacutec…3:29pm
“…oversimplify…”? Respectfully request direction on how one goes about oversimplification of the concept of ‘right and wrong’? Of course, I realize it’s possible I’m a simpleton.
timewarp @ 34
Actually Timewarp, there weren’t any comments over at huffpo. The panic started here.
We are hearing so much regarding how carardly Hizbollah is for “hiding” behind civilians. I am not sure that is the case, though I will agree that it is not “nice.”
But what I don’t hear anything about is the presence of huge settlements all over the West Bank — and the Golan Heights for that matter — the justification for which has always been (at least officially from the Israeli Gov, though many/most of the settlers claim the land is their sacred birth right) “self-defense.”
I have never been able to get my head aroudn that. If you want to “defend” Israel from attacks from within Palestinian territory, I could see the justification for building military outposts, but suburbs with apartment complexes, schools, synagogues etc?
Hasn’t the entire state of Israel been hiding behind civilians for the last 30 years?
Which is exactly the kind of hypocrisy which drives even the most moderate Arab (who has no wish to eliminate Israel) into a frenzy.
And imo, the failure of the US to vigorously condemn the ongoing building of these settlements (which the Israeli Peace movement has historically opposed) — even after the Oslo Peace Accords has been a prime example of how we have let our friends in Israel down. By not being an honest friend.
(Which btw — is what I saw myself as doing re the darkblack image)
A bit OT.
Colbert Analyzes Wikipedia;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHm0rGns4I
~~~
More Wikipedia gold;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Lieberman
“I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November’s elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.”
~~~
Can’t wait for Tuesday night’s wiki EST updates.
Susan in Iowa at at 48
I know nusssink…but veddy interesting, no?
That Israel should fully endorse the Bush
War of Terror early on using it to relabel
its Palestinian quandary with the new GWOT
buzztheme opened for Israel the tool chest
of unilateralism. Since it could then define
the politics,land grabs,border control and
access policy,taking all of Jerusalem and
keeping the Palestinians in perpetual and
comprehensive subjugation. Bush gave Israel
the perfect cover with his GWOT. And Israel
under Sharon did not hesitate to use it in
any and all ways. Lebanon now has come under
this same rubric. Hezbollah can be labeled
a “terrorist” entity and the Bush GWOT rules
of play entitle Israel to raise all Hell in
Lebanon. Nevermind the costs or downsides to
Lebanon. Israel is fighting the GWOT! The
mayhem,death and social fabric rendering it
presents Lebanon with are all discounted with
this GWOT mantra. Of course if Iran should
get a message out of it all the better.
American Bread and Circus politics,the woeful
underthinking and simply wrong thinking of
American foreign policy and the neocon desires
of militarism have brought forth a dangerous
precept in the Middle East. Bush is stuck in
his GWOT take on the Middle East and with the
neocons wanting to replicate their “success”
with Iraq in Iran Americans are on their very
own “Titanic”. As we realize more and more
that we are sinking and start to run for the
stern sadly by then it all is too late. Bush
has unleashed an Israeli monster and killing
even one million Arabs or Iranians is not ever
going to tilt the Middle East to the liking
of Israel.
OK Kiddo – As to why there is not a Palestinian state? Blame every, those in the mideast, not just the Israelis, as well as the UN, the US, the USSR/Russia, France, England, China, etc (that’s the short answer, and I’m not going to post a longer one – go to wikipedia or read a book).
As for mass murderers, and with whom your support and allegiences lie, why don’t you consider Hezbollah mass murderers? Or simply murderers, since I’ve never been one for moral relativity in the first place?
Now, you can believe all you want that Hezbollah attacks Israel b/c of the Palestinian issue, but being somewhat skeptical I want proof. They may say that is why they do it, but how exactly is that supposed to help the Palestinian’s gain statehood, or the stated goal of driving Israel into the sea (and no, I am not making that up). Their “support” of Palestinians is no different than other Arab, or Muslim, support for Palestinians – simply designed to meet their own political objectives with little to do with whether Palestinians ever get a homeland. So what exactly is Hezbollah’s cause?
That you, and so many others here, so easily demonize one side and not the other really does fascinate me. Were you wearing your Che Guevera t-shirt when you typed that post, shouting up the rebels
I can see demonizing all involved though, FWIW.
Gekkobear: Why exactly do you believe the current military “solution” will stop the rocket attacks, since it appears not to have made a dent in them so far?
How much retaliation against those launching rockets is too much?
None. How much collective punishment against the civilian population around them is too much? (Hint: you might want to consult the definitions of war crimes before you answer.) (Further hint: the rocket attacks are war crimes, too. The two don’t cancel out.)
I’ll admit my Sun Tzu is rusty, but I can’t recall when he recommended allowing a foreign power to continuously attack your country unimpeded until everyone died… nor does that sound like the advice of a friend.
Do you honestly believe that Hezbollah or Palestinian rockets are a serious threat to wipe out the population of Israel?
The demographics you cite (which are not going to get better) point to one of two options: peace or genocide. Any other military actions are just short-term responses.
Personally, I think peace is the better option.
moeman 58: re – colbert:
http://spring.newsvine.com/_ne…..-from-site
Shore up your allianes with who, exactly? You’re assuming that anyone wants to ally with Israel to begin with. Israel’s neighbors want to destroy Israel, and the few neighbors that recognize Israel as a country only do so because its politically expedient.
The sides here are not flexible. Israel is dealing with subnational fundamentalist groups that are demanding its destruction.
This situation sucks. And its not going to stop, because diplomacy isn’t possible with someone who believes you don’t deserve to exist. Violence isn’t going to stop until either Hezbollah goes underground or Israel removes their capacity to attack.
The place for diplomacy is between Israel, or the US acting on Israel’s behalf, and other neighbors. It’s a cruel truth that the arabian nations don’t care for one another beyond lip service. The place for diplomacy is for people to prevent Hezbollah from becoming stronger in other countries then Lebanon.
Our current administration probably couldn’t do that even if it wanted to.
I purposely did not make my post a moralistic one, though certainly, Israel’s actions have been morally compromised, as have the actions of Hezbollah. As have ours in the last few years, I might add.
After we all acknowledge that, we need also to look at what is strategically sensible, and it happens that the leader or nation with the moral upper hand is also the one positioned to win this new kind of warfare. Sun Tzu also recognized the importance of having the moral higher ground in war, and wrote about it.
Israel has forfeited this, just as we have, and so allies run from us both, rather than support us. This weakens us, and it weakens Israel.
I’m more interested in pursuing peace than in apportioning blame, though peace must come with justice.
I can see demonizing all involved though, FWIW.Amen to that! Which is why the only sane thing to do is for intelligent people to finally sit down and ask each themselves and each other, what can we all do to clean this mess up.
Bravo!! Pach at 65
Mary
left you a reply on the last thread
Hope 59
I missed your comments about leaving–less time for reading this week than I would like, so I’m not sure I get it. But I did go to the link, and the thought it expresses makes my stomach somersault, and not in a good way.
From http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=9453
what does Hezbollah want? primarily the return of the several thousand prisoners Israel kidnapped when it occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years. True, those prisoners may have been fighting Israel but Israel was occupying their homeland, Lebanon.
The Hezbollah rockets are the bitter fruit of Israeli occupation of foreign territories…
Pach -
The mess between Israel and Hezbollah is a tough topic to tackle without raising all kinds of hackles . . and an even tougher topic to ignore and still be able to sleep at night.
Thanks!
Niether of which options are under Israel’s control, and as long as Israel pretends it has some control, through the use of military force, Hezbollah gains strength.
Well, our policy must change as well, and I msut say I’ve been doing my part to promote regime change at home as well, starting with Congressional oversight following the midterms.
Excellent post, Pachacutec, you eloquently phrase the progressive dilemma with our friend. The issue is that our friend is following Dear Leader’s example, and using Dear Leader’s rhetoric. When W hears it called to him across the chasm of darkness that is his conscience, he salivates for more “freedom.”
Echoing it back to the Israelis, he steps outside the role of American President, previously played so well by others on this very stage, and engages instead as a cheerleader for the carnage. There’s only one path lit through this emptiness for W — the Cheney path. Robert McNamara wondered about the light at the end of the tunnel — could it be a locomotive headed towards us? BigTime’s incandescence is, I’m afraid, in Tehran, and thermonuclear.
The people of the world must call on their governments to stop this.
We must call on their governments to stop ours.
========
Had Enough?
========
Both sides can go back in time and point to atrocities endlessly. But Israel’s actions are point-blank wrong today and honestly, that’s all I care about. I’m not going down the road of “on the other hand, they did this two years ago, etc.”.
That’s just how I feel. Like, um, Lotus or little dog? says: FOCUS. I love that.
OfT “Actually Timewarp, there weren’t any comments over at huffpo. The panic started here.”
I disagree. Here’s the first mention of it at FDL:
Joshua Godinez says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:23 am *
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..h-lamont_b _26316.html
The Huffington Post is painting Jane as a racist with their picture at the top of the story.
Quote This Comment
It’s obvious to me that “Joshua” is a troll.
Anyone who reads FDL knows the HuffPo doesn’t paint Jane as anything and certainly not as a “racist.”
In addition, I saw some of the comments at HuffPo and some of them raised the identical concerns that we did about how Joezoe would turn this to make himself into the victim. That’s the primary issue here, not allowing Joe to make himself the victim. That’s why Tom Swan had to disassociate Ned from it. The other issues we discussed are, from an election standpoint, relatively secondary to allowing Joe to paint himself as a victim.
One of the comments at HuffPo was from OCSteve, who used to occasionally bother us here. He’s not a paid troll, but no one really liked having him around either.
Excuse my manners. EXCELLENT post, Pachacutec.
“Che Guevera t-shirt”. That’s nice. Reminds me of being on the playground in the second grade, calling each other names. Have to get back to my mud-pies now.
Excellent post BTW. The only side I am taking on this is the side of peace – one that doesn’t seem to be on the minds of any party involved. I don’t understand the logic of ‘fake peace’ put forth by chimpy. “We’ll just sit back and watch more people die, we’ll work on peace later, I gotta go meet with some American Idols.” or “Hey, this Israel/Hezbollah” shit got the shitstorm of Iraq out of the news! Let’s prolong it as long as possible.”
Bushco continues to alienate everyone, friend, foe and neutral. Hey, let’s snub Syria on Condi’s “shuttle diplomacy” trip. Now they have said that current policies concerning Cuba will remain – even if there is a new leader. Good plan, let’s not even talk to them, nothing ever came from talking anyway (can you detect a hint of sarcasm?).
Now I’m off to buy new matching hez and herz bollahs ;)
Thnx 4 dat twolf1.
I know it’s not Friday yet, but in light of all the distraction, I think its important for us to keep our eyes on the ball. Here is a momentary effort at refoucusing why we support Ned; why we’re againstst the war; why we support a cease-fire; why we do all that we are doing to restore out Democracy. Please give it two minutes of your attention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSbZcAiVBSc
Redshift:
“Personally, I think peace is the better option.”
I’m actually not in disagreement with you. The problem here is that you’re trying to get Israel to back down without any thought to Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.
Every peace proposal in my lifetime has had two of the big three (Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO) signed on, and the third continuing to attack Israel. Then when Israel resonds to the continuing attacks; they’re blamed for “ruining the peace process”. Then another mix of two of the three sign onto the next peace treaty. Repeat until you’re tired of the formula.
Peace would be one beautiful perfect wonderful option. However “Peace” where Israel stops fighting and keeps having their civilians killed by one or more of the three attacking parties doesn’t see quite as wonderful.
OT: “Joshua Godinez” had never posted here before his breathless news … by which time the wingnutterie were slapping accusations on the HuffPo piece …
Let’s keep the conversation about ideas, people, not personalities.
If we want others in the world to manage their diferences productively, it behooves us to sustain civil decorum here in our community.
Very insightful points, Pach. As always. Politics aside, I personally cannot understand and hope to never understand how the slaughter of innocent children advances the cause of security in the region. I do not see how this will end to the benefit of any nation. Not in our lifetimes.
OT- Catch, if you can, Richard Rodriguez’ essay tonight at the end of the Lehrer Hour. Moving analysis about our perception of the collective “we” and the differentiation of the “individual” in our society.
little dog, are you here?
I just noticed you replied to a comment that wasn’t mine on the last thread, but was something another poster was saying in response to something I had said previously. (does that make sense?)
I’ve noticed when comments are coupled with others in the same post it can get confusing. Like yesterday when Fran remarked I was feeling “hopeless” which is something I didn’t say…
Anyway, thanks for your response (even though it wasn’t mine) and I agree with you!
1,230 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND …
Pachacutec:
Bless your pure heart! Maybe the terrible furnace of war that the axis of fascist evil has stoked in the Middle East will forge a new alloy of hope and alternative possibility that is represented by your friend and the slowly awakening American soul.
If we look at what has happened in these last few days since the attack on Lebanon, it is becoming more and more difficult for American politicians to advance the imperial line of defense of Israel and destruction of the Arab world. It is becoming easier for us to use the term “fascist” and have the people we are talkin to know who of whom we speak. It is becomin’ clear that there are several axes of evil in the world and one of ‘em runs from Washington, DC thru Tel Aviv.
There is a new possibility arising out of the meld of election politics and the terrible wounds of war…the great heart of America is beginnin’ to beat again and the comin’ elections will tell if we have been taken off life-support.
KEEP THE FAITH, THEY CAN’T SUCCEED IF WE DON’T LET ‘EM!!
Sam (and others):
I hate to say it but the Iranien President is speaking the Islamic truth in regard to Israel.
I doubt that anyone will pay attention, but the Iranian president didn’t actually say he was going to wipe out Israel:
meta check my 81
Pach – Not that I want to question your military analyst credentials, but the idea that the “moral upper hand” wins the day isn’t really supported by history. We could start with the Romans and Persians, then go to the Huns, and end in the last century with German, Soviet and Japanese Imperialism (I would include this centuries American Imperialism, but its not really going that well).
More importantly, the moral high ground is purely relative here to the participants (and I would say to we observers). Ask an Israeli and ask a Hezbollan whether they think they have the moral high ground, and the heavy odds are that you will get two, opposite, answers – they each believe the moral high ground is theirs.
So, where does Sun Tzu stand when each side claims the moral high ground?
Hope, eh, you know the old saying, “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.” There are eyes here, DailyKos, CTBob, my Leftnutmegger to be sure.
It is the Achilles Heel of the Democratic party, this public hand-wringing of ours. I learned this from watching the politicians and the politicos of our party. You never see any such thing from the Republicans. They hash out everything behind close doors and come out with a unified stance complete with “talking points” for handling damage control.
Real-world strategies and/or weaknesses of the campaign should probably never be discussed out loud here. This doesn’t mean I’m suggesting any sort of censorship, but let’s say Candidate A is going to show up at a certain place and you say “well, we’ll just do this” as a response, you’ve just prepped the opposition and given him time to create a defense.
Normally this wouldn’t matter, but with so many here personally involved in the campaign it sort of changes the landscape.
There are a couple of things. One that has been talked about in the Israeli press is that the army was allowed to erode for the last several years as more and more it took on police functions in the Occupied Territories. An element in the initial ambush in the North and the subsequent ambush when a pursuit was mounted was that the troops were reservists, it was the last day of their rotation, and their training was not what it might have been. This was not an isolated instance but the Israeli general staff still was thinking that Hezbollah had not evolved or learned anything and Israel had the same army it had several years ago. It didn’t and the initial strategy of destroying Hezbollah quickly fell apart. Now we are seeing the Israeli leadership civilian and military trying to salvage the situation, which means falling back on their default strategy of going in an shooting the place up. They have been doing this in the Territories for years. It hasn’t worked there as 39 years of experience attest. Short term it gives a certain satisfaction and an appearance that something has been done. Long term it is a disaster, creates more problems than it solves, and leads to further radicalization and better tactics among Israel’s opponents.
When Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were keeping the Israeli’s and Palestinians engaged, I felt a whole lot safer. And the Mideast wasn’t poised on the brink of all out war. Blame is not the name of the game. Diplomacy is. Give the Palestinians a homeland. A “real” homeland that is. What have we got to lose?
*ilson46201 @ 70
Exactly what a very moderate Lebanese neighbor has been saying for years.
I doubt whether all the rockets combined that Hezbollah has sent into Israel has the explosive power of just one dumping of the 3,000 bombs over Lebanon.
Truely time for reasonable people in the world to say ENOUGH! Sit down and talk!
SahronW at 91 I couldn’t agree with you more. I have another adage: Don’t air your dirty laundry in public.
Mary @ 3:23pm (#27 )
Thought that, just for a moment, then I read this bit from the article you linked to:
Mind you, this is the Gen. Miller who’s had me shaking my head and wondering why anyone would leave him in the position he was in for most of the last three years.
Hopefully, part of Jane Harmon’s upgrade is the realization that she’s not as good at reading people as she thought she was, and that sometimes actions really do speak louder than words.
preview is my friend
Sorry-SharonW
Media Needle defends our Jane;
http://medianeedle.blogspot.co…..-lies.html
When HoJo loses Tuesday Mean Mrs. Malkin is gonna unhinge something fierce.
The moral upper hand is not by itself sufficient condition for victory, but it is a necessary component of the commander of the winning forces, so as to sustain effort and morale. For a democracy, the civilian population is part of this equation.
What’s more, modern warfare is propaganda warfare played out before an audience. The object is to win the audience, not territory. To win the audience, over the long haul, the moral upper hand is necessary for sustainable victory. This in part is how the West overcame the Soviet Union.
Look at the geography and it’s obvious that Syria is the next target and Israel is now part of the Coalition of the Willing.
Israel will hold Syria at the Lebanon border, while the USA attacks from Iraq.
That’s the crazy Rummy plan.
John Casper @ 75
And the comments are still rolling in over there. Some are obviously written by crowing wingnuts, but there are plenty from others who are clearly not trolls.
We all make mistakes. I have done some phenomenally rash things in my life, so I would be the last person to condemn another (I really mean this Jane — and anyway, rashness can be a kind of genius in itself!). Anyway — because of the comments here (and there for that matter), the psuedo-meme of dangerous lefty blogger-swarm cannot hold.
Israel already occupies what all agree is Syrian territory: the Golan Heights, which they have held since 1967. Israel wants to chew off more?
Via Juan Cole;
http://lebanonupdates.blogspot.com/
What’s more, modern warfare is propaganda warfare played out before an audience.
Our internet service (WildBlue) down at home so I couldn’t do my usual morning roadtrip news cruisin’. Evidently some big fiber toobz broke. At work finally got time to catch up until I dropped in here…holy cow…there must be a bazillion comments.
Jane being attacked by mad malkin? An excellent indication that you have spooked the vampires. I think the photoshop wizards should create a badge of honor for just these occasions & award them to deserving progressive knights & ladies in shining armor who are taking our liberal kingdom back.
moeman @ 99
Happy to defend her. Greg at The Horse’s Mouth weighs in as well.
LOL – Here’s a surprise!
i don’t know how to say this without offending, so i’ll just say it…i guess the title of the post begs the question, why does every politician trip over himself trying to prove that he’s a friend of Israel…? Or that the left and right both argue who’s the bigger friend?
given that Israel has the right to defend itself against incursions, i find it disturbing that there is a lack of questioning (both in the MSM and blogosphere) on the right of Israel to bomb the country of Lebanon into oblivion… we debate the efficacy of that policy but not the policy itself. why is that?
glenn greenwald had an excellent post recently addressing a similar topic. i suspect that we avoid the topic because we don’t want any internal conflicts, but given that there’s people dying daily, and our government stands by and gives a green light, it should be open to discussion.
Timewarp at 21
My mistake then, but when I was here, I looked over there and there weren’t any comments yet. Perhaps they were in moderation. But the point was made very clearly by SharonW @ 91. We will always disagree about things from time to time; we are Progressives. But we need to do a little less of it in ‘public’.
That was Time warp at 102…the dyslexia kick in everyday about now…
SharonW @ 90
Yes, I am sure there are eyes everywhere, which is why “they” whoever the hell they are would’ve seen the post at HuffPo sooner or later. And commenters would’ve commented. And spread the word.
But I could not disagree more about the idea that the Republicans are more effective because they only debate things behind closed doors. That is precisely why I could never ever be a republican. Marching along in lockstep with talking points handed down the chain of command is contrary to my rash nature. Furthermore, I think it is a toxic strategy, particularly at this level of rank and file — the grassroots so to speak. John Dean has made an eloquent and compelling case as to why this kind of thing is so dangerous in a Democracy in his new book on Authoritarianism. We at the bottom need to have a voice, and we should be able to expect that the people we elect to represent us will at least listen.
Now, when we are talking re our elected representatives — in the Congress etc — I do agree, they should organize behind closed doors and come out with a coherant strategy. They are living in a universe which is governed by Parlimentary rules etc and they must be chess-masters. They must be practical and effective. Which is why it is so important for Ned Lamont — as well as many others like him — to win this primary and then win the general election.
But in the mean time, I am not going to relinquish my right to think and speak. Otherwise, what is the point of throwing all the rethugs out of office?
Great post Pach!
John Casper sez at 50:
Wallace was shot in May 1972. His third-party run in 1968 garnered 46 votes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U…..tion,_1968
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I…..-Large.png
Gekkobear:
I’m actually not in disagreement with you. The problem here is that you’re trying to get Israel to back down without any thought to Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.
I am not doing any such thing (though I realize you may have meant “you” to refer to the original post, rather than me specifically.)
In my reply, I almost said a comprehensive peace, rather than just “peace,” because I entirely agree that it is necessary. In the immediate situation, I do support Israel backing down, because they’re the ones conducting a hot war, and because I agree with Pach that their current course of action is very damaging to them in the medium-to-long term. Beyond that, though, the peace that I see as the only alternative for Israel’s survival must involve all those players.
However, it’s not going to be achieved with all of them at once. Allowing a flare-up with one to completely derail the process with another (which all sides are guilty of at one time or another) is a recipe for failure. Israel achieved peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, without requiring peace with every other Arab country at the same time.
(I’m late leaving work, so I’m not going to be able to continue this conversation, but it’s been good to talk with you. I think there’s frequently a lot more agreement than it seems, but the rhetoric can get in the way.)
HopeSpringsATurtle @ 109
Disagreeing isn’t exactly the problem. Let me clarify, when we are now linked to real-world strategies, we discuss them in public at risk to the good execution of said strategy.
Likewise, any public worrying, may show an underbelly that’s vunerable, one that the “watching eyes” never thought of themselves leading to exploitation of perceived weaknesses.
Part of strategic thinking is to examine what you believe your opponent is trying to accomplish (or opponents, plural). Does Israel believe that Hezbollah is going to invade and take territory? Doubtful. Syria? Also, in my book, doubtful.
What Hezbollah seems to be about is military harassment – quick strikes here and there, to try to get their own out of Israeli custody at the bargaining table and/or to tempt Israel into overreaching.
If that’s the case, they seem to have succeeded in the second goal if not the first. If Israel wants to win this battle, they’ve got to recognize what their opponent is after.
Put it another way: militarily speaking, shock and awe isn’t going to work for Olmert any better than it did for Bush.
Raw Story sez NYT doing a piece tomorrow on Ned’s money. Give me a fucking break, I grew up in Greenwich, everybody has money.
A better question is one that somebody posted here earlier…how did Joe Ho get to be a millionaire while being the public sector for 30 years? My mailman isn’t.
OfT, HopeSAT, SharonW, I did email Jane about it, but I have no idea if she read my email and imo time was absolutely critical.
I completely agree with you about not airing fdl laundry in public. I was very conscious of that fact when I started commenting about it, but to me the greater good was served by making sure Jane and the campaign were informed.
I don’t want either of you to think I took making those comments lightly. Per comments above, I strongly suspected that Joshua was a Lieberman troll, so that helped make my decision a lot easier than it otherwise would have been. If Joshua had not commented the link, if I had found it on HuffPo, I never would have mentioned it so boldly.
TSF, thanks.
Ooooooops.
That’s only part of the goal.
The other part is to provoke Israel to respond precisely as it is responding, and to survive.
Just by surviving, Hezbollah wins, because it demonstrates Israeli impotence while at the same time winning admirers all across the Shia and to some extent, the Sunni Arab world. That extra support translates into status, social power and money.
If Israel had not taken the bait, the internal political pressure may have been overwhelming, unless the US were to give Israel outside cover for restraint. It’s true, as pointed out above, that the US has not been strategically smart in its foriegn policy and has very few diplomatic cards to play in Israel’s support.
Striking out militarily because of domestic, wounded rage is not the same as taking intelligent, self-interested action. People make remarkably stupid mistakes against their interests all the time, and nations do the same. We’ve certainly done it.
What is necessary is a popular understanding of the changed nature of modern warfare, so that what feels counterintuitive – restraint, even when counterattack feels and is in some sense justified – becomes politically acceptabel and possible.
This can only happen when other alliance building efforts are undertaken to reduce popular support for those perpetrating terrorist crimes. It also requires real statesmanship and leadership.
Twisted Martine 116 — not sure that such a story will play out so negatively. I can’t think of a single instance of a candidate loosing a race because he or she has too much money. A bigger question is how did he come by that money — and as I understand it, he is an entrpreneur. That could play very well. Someone who knows how to make things actually happen (instead of sitting around on Faux News opining about Terri Schiavo, for instance) understand the real world, etc, etc.
Americans, even poor ones, like stories about how people go out and do things to make things happen. If the initiative that Lamont has shown in launching this campaign in the 1st place is indicative of anything (he’s a can-doer) then that dimension of his character will show up in a story about his $$.
Good post.
A substantial number of Republicans are planning for Jerusalem to host the Apocolympics in 2008. They and Israel do not exactly have the same interests in what’s going on over there. You rarely see much reflection on that – but it’s a significant dynamic.
BBC
I don’t think our discussion about the HuffPo piece was terribly damaging, if anything it’s a permanent record of how concerned we were about the tasteless graphic and how it might impact a great man like Ned. I also think it’s important that we feel free to commune with each other in quick time when something alarms us. Sharing is important and it brings us closer.
In this case, even when Christy asked us to chill out we just couldn’t. I think our alarm also made the change happen more quickly. So that’s the way it goes sometimes. I’d hate to feel censored and shamed for voicing an opinion.
I say all this with hesitancy because I’m not quite a member of this community, having been here for such a short time, but I just wanted to give my two cents. Hope you don’t mind.
Well said, Pach.
Peterr,
The Israelis left Lebanon in 2000. They have had 6 years to tie up the loose ends there but they never bothered. They left the issues of the Shaba Farms and repatriation of prisoners to languish and fester. The timing of the Hezbollah ambush that started all this was related to the events in Gaza but also reflects very much Hezbollah’s own agenda. So far both sides have miscalculated but because of the sheer size and sledgehammer accuracy of the Israeli response and the unrealistic statement of their strategic goal to destroy Hezbollah, Israel’s miscalculation is by far the greater.
John Casper @ 117
This explains how I felt very well. And I should mention that I did not comment on this issue here until there was already an entire page of comments over at HuffPo, and I strongly felt (and still do feel) that the image should’ve been taken down immediately.
How did RGJoe make his millions? There’s all this talk about how rich Ned is, and how he made a lot of money — after inheriting some he probably couldn’t touch until he was grownup, not like Paris Hilton.
But how does a guy who’s been on the public payroll for decades become a millionaire? If there’s a story about personal wealth to be told in this campaign, it’s the RGJoe story, not the Ned Lamont story.
Stoopit TradMed. Stoooopit NYT.
TeddySanFran @ 127
Hadassa???
Thank you for an excellent post, Pachacutek. Rare to hear someone “speak” on this topic in a way that does not sound like it was pre-recorded, (pre-recorded, and then played automatically whenever possible regardless of what the question is). (and I think people on all sides of these issues have been known to just let the tape play, without listening and really responding).
For future reference, I think once we know the message’s been received, there doesn’t need to be further notification about it. Unless we’re talking about further discussion of it, which (it appears now) wasn’t anyone’s intent.
Jenny from the Blog @ 125
The graphic was a mistake, and it’s been removed as it should. Also, it bodes well FOR FDL that we as FDLers complained about it IN PUBLIC IMO.
teddysanfran (4:44) maybe everyone assumes it is obvious how someone became a millionaire, when that someone has been a senator for 18 years.
Timewarp, hopefully, you saw my clarification at 115. This is precisely what I am talking about. Right now, we are linked to to Ned’s campaign by virtue of our real-world presence. As such, I wouldn’t dream of asking something like “how do you find Lieberman’s campaign bus in order to tail it with the Kiss float?” because the answer might give away an evasion maneuver.
I am not in any way advocating that we all agree with each other and never disagree. Neither am I criticizing people who mentioned that the pic should be taken down. This is just a future warning to think about whether you’re going to give something away that the opposition might not have otherwise been aware of relative to the campaign.
There are no clean hands in this mess — 2 sides wanting totally different outcomes. How to come to peace is the question of the century. right now Israel makes it clear it does not want peace until it gets exactly what it wants. To get rid of Hezbollah. But how do they do that. Every single family in Lebanon that has lost family now has a blood oath of hatred for Israel. Is that helping?
And the major question? How far does Israel really want to go? Do they want to control all of Lebanon? Probably. They can get some American approved Lebanese Americans to run it for them i.e. Iraq. But Syria and Iran are next up and Israel cannot control those 2 countries in my opinion. Not even with American help. If the whole area begins to look like Iraq and the 2 wars meet, then Israel will have lost totally.
Pachacutec, your comments ARE noteworthy in their light and clarity, given a subject which invokes so much heat. While I’ve read much criticism of Israel for its “disproportionate response,” I believe you’ve made a significant point when you speak of the trauma of the Holocaust and it’s reverberating effecs in the collective psyche of Israel. On one level, we speak about the conflict rationally, while on another level, what we have are massively traumatized people on both sides, and its from this another level, that the violence and the trauma is perpetuated. I wonder what kind of shape I would be in and how I would respond if I’d seen all the members of my family decimated and my home town reduced to rubble. But, not having experienced these things, it is obvious to me that peace and security cannot be achieved through violence.
at $165,200 per year and if Hadassah clips grocery coupons, one could scrimp and save up a lil nest-egg for “a rainy day”…
Cujo359 @ 97:
(drive by) Miller is being allowed to retire — even getting a Distinguished Service Medal — despite taking the 5th while testifying in a recent court martial trial over prisoner abuse. Articles in both the NY and LA Times yesterday. Kind of reminds you of Tommy Franks, George Tenet and Paul Bremer, doesn’t it? At least they’re predictable (if despicable).
SharonW @ 133
I think we are on exactly the same page then! I am not interested in being in on the details of strategies which have a political consequence. And I should also say that I agree with Cozumel, it is to our credit that we are able to talk sanely (and with tranparency) about our own mistakes. If we can cop to them ourselves, it take the thunder out of the criticism coming from the oppostion. If this were redstate, anyone who said anything would’ve been piled onto and banished, as we can see, that is not likely to happen!
“…requires real statesmanship…” and stateswomanship. Yes. Yes. And yes. But where are the Rabins, al-Sadats, the Carters and the rest? What we have today are the Hillary Clintons, Liebermans, etc., and most of the Republicans. We need “radical” changes in our political, social and economic system. We need people who can lead us out of the wilderness and into the promised land. People who realize we are ALL dependent upon one another for survival.
peony:
Thank you.
I would note that the individual who asked me to publish my comment is an American Jew whose father kept many miniatures in the home: Israeli tanks and warplanes. The person who had encouraged me to publish is someone for whom these matters are far from academic.
These issues are intensely emotional for families, and it’s very hard for many Jewish progressives to say what I’ve said here today, because it causes so much pain and conflict within families. This is because those traumatic wounds have not healed.
fwiw, during the graphic kerfuffle I was busy deleting trollerie from Planet Wingnuttia who were gloating in triumphalism …
*ilson, That made me giggle a little bit.
*ilson46201 @ 143
thank you for your work, *ilson!
*ilson46201 @
143
I was out all day today, and so missed the whole thing. I have not seen the graphic. But I gather you’ve had a busy day. Thanks for all your work.
*ilson46201 @ 143
*ilson gets three pieces of flair…
Jenny from the Blog @ 145
And some more ***s!
Cool! Isn’t it funny how much discussion it takes sometimes to see that we’re all actually in agreement. :)
during the Cold War, so many Americans were convinced by years of propaganda that the Russians were just itching to drop atom bombs all over the USA. Nowadays many folk hear propaganda that “they” want to drive Jews into the sea, that the Iranian President wants to nuke Jerusalem. There is real fearmongering at work … It is heartbreaking to hear good folk repeat these scary stories …
I remember having to duck and cover in the first grade under our little wooden desks during air-raid drills. We were assigned papers like “Why Communism is Wrong” in the third grade and all us little kids would write full-on passionate anti-communist diatribes on big-lined paper.
Good times….
*ilson was doing some invisible Kung-Fu while we prattled away. Thanks.
BTW, *ilson, whenever I see your nic I think “Wilson,” specifically the Wilson from “Home Improvement.” They guy whose full face was perpetually hidden by a fence. I view your asterisk as that fence partially covering your identity. :D
New thread,Jane sez…..’About that graphic….
biggus diggus @
101
Attacks from Iraq? With what? Our garrisons holed up in the Green Zone of Bagdad? This is a nightmare for everyone but Osama and the madmen of Foggy Bottom!
*ilson46201 @ 143
*ilson, the funny/sad thing is the sudden concern from these trolls about the hurtfulness of racist imagery, when contrasted with their usual high minded commentary back in the blogostomy™ where they live.
From wiki: Like the majority of right-wing blogs, she (Malkin), does not allow comments on her site to avoid obscene and racist comments.[4]
My addition: to avoid obscene and racist comments FROM HER FANS.
It seems if the U.S. ever became serious about peace in the Mideast, all it would have to say is ‘look Israel, you will make peace with the Palestinians or we’ll cut you guys off the money train’. ‘And look Arabs, if you try to drive Israel into the sea we will deal with you guys in a very un-fashionable manner’. Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki? History shows we have no compunction about using nukes. The point being in this, is that America is the decider, as the lunatic Bush is wont to remind us. And that just might be the only thing he’s ever, ever been right about.
Pachacutec, given the multi-generational trauma caused by the Holocaust, why does it appear so difficult for many Israelis to identify with the sufferings of others – like the Palestinians or Lebanese? Or is it unreasonable to expect that suffering will result in compassion for the suffering of others?
Yea, yea, I know EPU’d, but totally relevant to the discussion.
Israeli peace groups
What happens when you eliminate the politicians and corporate news rhetoric? People actually see each other as human
Another briliant post Pach!
Fern 157 -
Fern that’s such an important question and one that I’ve thought about too. How can people who have suffered so horribly not have empthy for the “other”?
I guess being wrapped in the ‘victim cloak’ for so long just clouds their humanity. That and fear is a devastating combo. It’s really, really sad.
Cujo 97 – yeah, she starts out with that and makes you go AGH! but then she does pretty much say — maybe I was a freakin idiot though, bc then we got one revelation after another – click on the link to her letter to Miller and she was pretty tough. I thought at least. And I do think she’s saying more, doing more. Her NSA legislation is a big reason why I say it. Still, I hope I gave what credit there is to the person responsible. ;-)
Pach,
I suggest you read Alexander Cockburn’s article on Crackpot Realism as a good way to understand the violence for the sake of violence foreign policy enacted reflexively by Israel and supported compulsively by the American right.
Also, Jonathan Schell’s article in The Nation “Too Late for Empire” takes a good look at how the rise of superpower military might was accompanied by a parallel restriction on how first world militaries could use their full capacities. Not sure if that’s a subscription link or not…
Dear Pach,
I just got here and I know I’m EPU’d, but WOW! This post is one of the best I’ve seen at any site in a very long time.
How can your statement, “the sense I get is that the position you describe is reflexive, not actually reflective or even strategic” not hit everyone’s nerves at every level?
Note to Self: Read More Pach!
I consider it the act of a friend to help my friend avoid making the same mistake.
I admit that I haven’t been reading all the reports regarding the deadly Israeli/Hezbollah confrontation in southern Lebanon, but I have been reading about the deadly barrage of Hezbollah-fired missiles raining down on Israeli cities.
My question: haven’t any Patriot Missile batteries been positioned in northern Israel to try to intercept and destroy these missiles before they can hit the ground? I believe I read somewhere once that Israel has been working on their own version of the U.S. Patriot Missile system, trying to improve on the effectiveness of defensive anti-missile missiles.
Just wondering if I missed reading about Israeli attempts to shoot down the Hezbollah rockets before they can strike inside Israel.
O, I don’t think that anyone has intercepts that actually work. Kind of like invisibilty, it will happen someday. When it does, for the record, I would rather be invisible than be an intercept.
The traumatic victim experience is by its very nature a self-absorbing one. Only with healing is empathy fully reacquired.
While one’s own pain is white hot or just below the surface ready to break out with little stimulation, one lack’s the space to fully invite in an “other.”
This is just human nature.
So Pach, why is your statement that “the sense I get is that the position you describe is reflexive, not actually reflective or even strategic” so meaningfull to your e-mail friends and to me?
Say…isn’t Sun Tzu a…well, not to put too fine a point on it…
He’s Chinese.
And…
Since he ain’t some white racist goober from da Deep South or way out Arizona way he cain’t be knowin’ anythang.
Ya see.
Our Leader and his ‘Pigboy’ consigliere with the able assistance of Madame SuperTanker and Dumbsfeld are leadin’ us.
Yep wa’re ‘marching to feedom’ and we doan need no uppity ReddHed to tell us about mileeetary strategy.
In point of fact here is what the ‘leadership’, political and military, of this country needs:
Rope.
Enough to hang ‘em all.
DexDexter @
166
I can’t presume to speak for others, but this is what my friend said:
As I say, I still feel that overstates it, but the statement resonated with my friend. See my earlier comment about this person’s family background.
‘This is a wonderful and elegant articulation of a truth very hard to articulate. You should share it with the world.’
Oh, Pach, I so much agree with your friend. Putting thoughts and feelings so eloquently into words is powerfull.
more insight in those few paragraphs than in the last 60 years of american foreign policy writings.
Certain to be EPU’d. Been busy all day, and just catching up on the blogs.
De-lurking to compliment Pach for his thoughtful piece. Every day I read the paper, and check the blogs, catch the headlines on NPR or Air America, and just when I think “things can’t get worse,” they do. The orgy of violence in the Levant is heartbreaking. Although I am cheered by the Roots Project, and the efforts of so many Firepups and others working to put progressive politicians in office and progressive ideals in action, when I hear news about the record number of rockets fired by Hezbollah or more details about the bombing in Qana, I despair.
njprogressive: keep yer chin up.
Good night, all. It’s 10:30 and hot as heck, but I still need get outdoors…
Note To Self: Don’t Miss Pach!
Well said, friend.
The elephant in the room is that the USA, UK and Israel lack the moral, legal and practical authority to be the world’s policemen, a role that can be played only by a democratized UN.
Progressives are not the friends of Israel.
Any honest appraisal of the creation of Israel leads to the conclusion that it was created at the cost of the Palestinians. The creation of Israel was a land grab–by craft, force, or any other means necessary. Jabotinsky and the rest were very clear in what they were doing and what they were willing to do to achieve their aims.
I sympathize with Jews who wish Israel the best, and who would grieve at the loss of that nation. I appreciate that Israel is a beacon of Western democracy and values in a backwards part of the world.
But Israel was born by theft, maintained by brutal force, and no good can come of it. And it’s an albatross around the neck of the U.S.
I think you have to differentiate between Jews and Zionists, and friends and people around the planet who you might share strategic interests with.
Americans share no strategic interests with Zionists. Americans share with Jews a morality that should be rejecting the Bush-Ohlmert doctrine.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
That’s a pretty good start on a definition of Liberalism. Now I might be missing something, and maybe Progressivism doesn’t dovetail with Liberalism on this issue of all persons being created equal, at least in the eyes of the law.
But I cannot square these liberal sentiments from the Declaration of Independence with support for a nation established for the benefit of one particular religious group.
Terrorism is by its very nature an idealogic endeavor. A war on terror is an oxymoron, you cannot wage a physical war against an idea. The act of terrorism by its very nature is unpredictable, it does not fit into any conventional war planning scenario i.e. you don’t fight it with massed force, you fight it with infiltrtion and that tired worn out phrase winning the hearts and minds of the populace in which it occurs. Insurgencies and terrorism can only be successful when the populace supports it, and it cannot be defeated without that support. Bombs, planes and massed force are useless. How can you wage the kind of war we are waging when you can’t predict where he, the insurgent, is. This war in Iraq, based on lies, was lost the minute it was engaged in. In Vietnam the VC never won a battle and won the war, just as the insurgency in Iraq is winning, while we spend billions trying to do what those educated in the art of guerilla war know is folly entered into by ignorant fools to smart to study the lessons learned in the past. We are bankrupting our country uselessly and I still find it incredulous that people so highly educated could be so lacking in wisdom and foresight. The Hezbollah, the PLO, Hamas will not be defeated by this massive bombing of Lebanon for the same reasons. Isreal can invade but for what purpose, to grab more land, that idiocy will only strengthen the opposition, and create a much more serious set of circumstances. We are at a point in time where the worst of our nightmares could come to fruition, we have people willing to exercise the nuclear option, that has never happened since the faceoff in the 60’s. Now there are people willing to put that on the table, willing to actually use nuclear weaponry. If that happens pandoras box is open and god help us all.
I wanted to say something else that I need to preface by saying that I am not an anti semite that thought never enters my head. Hamas, Hezbollah, The PLO would not exist without the Isreali’s complicity, so I find it disingenuous of Isreal to demonize what it created.
Once more.. Pach I am parroting some of what you say but these are my thoughts also and have been for some time, and I felt the need, right or wrong, to put them on paper.
Pach, I’m in a different time zone (Germany) and so only just got to read your beautifully written post.
I’ve only commented here a couple of times, since I often find myself in the position of “Oh, I wish I’D said that!” or “I was thinking the exact same thing, but could never have expressed it so well!” There are just so many articulate, insightful commenters at FDL.
Thank you for such a thoughtful post. Reading what you have to say is always time very well spent.
Thanks, Pach. You, Jane, Redd, and all the crew here know that it will take some time, and lots of work, to push back against the Republicans. It has to be done, but some days (in 100-degree heat) it’s more difficult to do the pushing.
As Norske would say, keep the faith.
By the way where is Norske? Haven’t seen any posts from him lately.
Umm Redshift, so maybe the Iranian President didn’t claim to wipe Israel from the map earlier (I’ve seen claims on both sides).
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746081.html
Ahmadinejad’s call to destroy Israel draws French condemnation
By The Associated Press
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis was to destroy Israel, Iranian state media reported.
…
“Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented,” Ahmadinejad said, according to state-run television in a report posted on its Web site.
So why is the Iranian State Media reporting today that he’s claiming the solution to the ME crisis is to destroy Israel?
So, is the Iranian media right-wing Bush lovers trying to skew the story? Or can we agree now that Ahmadinejad is calling for the destruction of Israel?
Can we at least agree that the excuse that this is just another mistranslation is unlikely?
I do think there may have been a slight mistranslation, it says “main solution” and really sounds like a “final solution” if I’m not mistaken…
“elimination of the Zionist regime” does NOT say eliminate Jews but to eliminate a particular government. The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming! scared Americans for years — nowadays the fabrications continue about Zionist regime equals Jews or Israelis.
Dont let the fear-mongers get you down! It’s all propaganda to justify whatever the IDF wishes to do…
Pach wrote: “[T]he best strategic choice is not to take the bait, but to stand firm within your borders, look to your defenses and shore up your alliances.” I wonder, though, how this would keep Hamas from launching rockets into Israel from Gaza or Hezbollah from Lebananon? Maybe you are aware of some super-secret anti-missile defense system that Israel could install? I’m just not seeing how your “best strategic choice” would do anything, at all, to stop the rockets.
Good post! Israel blew this big time. They maybe could still redeem and help themselves if they temporarily halted hostilities and asked Lebanese government to work WITH them to remove the radical and aggressive Hezbollah from their country. Before the attacks on infracstructure throughout the country this would most likely have been well received. Now it’s just a slim hope.
Nick @ 175
So Nick, what’s your proposal? The post that started all this, and the numerous comments submitted in its spirit, suggest at least a general approach, even if they don’t agree on the details. That approach is one that is a fundamentally optimistic one that would treat all concerned as capable of much better behavior, without placing blame for past behavior.
But it does assume the continued existence of Israel. Is that an acceptable starting point for you?
DBL @
185
It won’t. In the short term, nothing will. That’s the point.
“Fern 157 -
given the multi-generational trauma caused by the Holocaust, why does it appear so difficult for many Israelis to identify with the sufferings of others”
Fern, see Pachacutec @142: “This is because those traumatic wounds have not healed.”
Having never experienced such profound suffering as the Holocaust, I offer the following very tentatively and hopefully without arrogance. To suffer a trauma of this magnitude requires an empathy and compassion of equal or greater magnitude. The pain would need to be allowed to be felt fully without any resistance, meaning without blame. How many of us have the capacity to do this even with little slights, not even considering “the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.” Based on what I’ve seen and what’s been reported, Israel doesn’t look to me to have moved past the blame/victim stage which I understand is necessary for radical healing.
Personally, I will say that Pachacutec’s insightful and sensitive comments about the aftermath of the Holocaust awakened a compassion for Israel I wasn’t feeling before and put Israel’s actions in a different light for me, that of unhealed trauma.
"Sun Tzu recognized that when you are fighting on unfavorable ground and outnumbered, the best thing to do is retreat and shore up your alliances. This simply represents strategic good sense. Fighting wars of occupation against poor people whose populations largely support guerillas means fighting on just such unfavorable ground. As counter-intuitive as this may seem, the best strategic choice is not to take the bait, but to stand firm within your borders, look to your defenses and shore up your alliances."Clearly you are not a scholar of Sun Tzu. For Sun Tzu, extreme excellence was to defeat your enemy without fighting him.
The IDF is not on “unfavorable ground”, nor is the IDF outnumbered. Israel maintained a force in Southern Lebanon for 18 years, and withdrew on it’s own terms. How some people, like Hizbollah, view this as a tactical victory for the Terrorists has always amazed me. In today’s context, is it in Hizbollah’s and Lebanon’s best interests to have the IDF come back in for another 18 years? This is what resulted from the last time Palestinian Terrorists used Lebanon as a staging ground for attacking Israel. Is this Nasrallah’s goal again? How would that be a victory forHizbollah again? I doubt Sun Tzu would view that as a victory for Hizbollah, as Hizbollah’s goal is to destroy Israel, not merely to remove Israel from Lebanon. You also ignores the fact that, for Hamas, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, or any other terrorist entity, “occupation” means “Israel”. It’s not simply about the settlements, Shebaa Farms, the Bekaa, it’s about a Jewish State in the Middle East.
If you are unable to come to terms with these simple, common sense principles, you are hardly in a position to be quoting Sun Tzu, much less second guessing the leaderhsip of nation states.
The acts of brutal, Islamic terrorism all over the world, are signs of weakness and not signs of strength. Any idiot can set off a car bomb. Any idiot can strap dynamite to them and destroy innocent lives. Any idiot can walk into a school in suburban Colorado and take lives (Columbine). There is no difference. Israel is perhaps the most secure nation on the planet, yet they cannot stop terrorism.
Militant Islamic Fundamentalism is doomed to failure because of its very nature. We won’t kill it, it will kill itself. But, we have to have the resolve to recognize this and support those who are on the front lines fighting it. Right now, those on the Front Lines are in Israel, as it has always been, as well as Afghanistan, and Iraq.
*ilson46201 @
184
Ok, you caught me. I was equating the “Zionist Regime” propoganda with Israel.
But you need to correct Wikipedia. “Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel”
So we need to remove any Zionist Governments that believe the Jewish people should have a homeland is Israel? But we don’t want to “wipe Israel off the map” or destroy Israel’s Government. That’s absurd and exaggerating?
What kind of Government would Israel have that doesn’t support a Homeland for the Jewish people in Israel? We don’t want to wipe Israel off the map, we Just want all the Jews out of Israel and to remove any Jewish homeland. Not out of hatred of Jews… but from… what exactly?
If we want to eliminate a Government that supports the Jewish people of Israel living in Israel, isn’t that removing, running off, or killing Jews?
If not, please find me a dfinition of Zionism that doesn’t relate to Jews and Israel.