David Neiwert is one of the crown jewels of the blogosphere. In an era where the jingo-all-the-way crowd exploit a disfunctional immigration system to rally the bigot brigade into armed militias and fantasies of Atzlan, his blog Oricinus has become a critical resource for the tracking of such militaristic groups as the Minutemen and the Klan and the examination of their rhetoric as it slithers its way iinto mainstream right wing discourse. (As a side note I’m reminded of one of my favorite quotes by Digby, who says "This idea of America as a New Sparta is ridiculous. We’re a nation of flabby shoppers.")
In his book Strawberry Days, Neiwert focuses on the agrarian community of Bellevue, Washington where early immigrants from Japan were the only ones willing to clear the old-growth stumps from the land in order to make it arable. He explores the growth of the Japanese-American community that grew up around Strawberry farming in that area, and the fears it awoke in the community. The noises made by Miller Freeman, the Tom Tancredo of his day (the early 1900s), are hauntingly familiar:
There was one central reason why Freeman saw Japanese immigrants as a greater threat than any other: the "Yellow Peril." Like many of his contemporaries, Freeman ardently adopted a conspiracy theory, which posited that the Japanese emperor intended to invade the Pacific Coast, and that he was sending these immigrants to American shores as shock troops to prepare the way for just such a military action, and lay the groundwork for acts of sabotage and espionage when the signal was given. As his counterpart in California, James Phelan, put it in 1900, the Japanese immigrants represented an "enemy within our gates." Freeman frequently cited a 1909 book promoting this theory, Homer Lea’s The Valor of Ignorance, which detailed the invasio to come and its aftermath.
Sketched through many interviews with area residents and their decendents who lived through the era, Newiert paints a haunting portrait of the havoc created in the lives of American citizens when the nuts inflame people’s fears and take over the conversation. Phelan’s words from a mass rally against the Japanese in 1900 (organized by local unions) invoke this very modern sounding wingnut canard:
The Japanese are starting the same tide of immigration which we thought we had checked twenty years ago…. The Chinese and the Japanese are not bona fide citizens. They are not the stuff of which American citizens can be made…. Personally we have nothing against the Japanese, but as they will not assimilate with us and their social life is so different from ours, let them keep at a respectful distance.
Freeman himself got a bug up his ass about Japanese ships off the coast of Alaska, and organized a Naval Militia to protect the coast, which basically sounds like a bunch of skinheads in dingys. So sorry for the Minutemen, but there is nothing new under the sun, not even their nonsense.
On May 20, 1942 the entire Japanese population of Bellevue was carried away on a train (from March 20 to October 31 there were 114,490 people evacuated from the Pacific Coast to relocation centers). The War Relocation Authority began trying to "instill democratic values in their charges." Detainees tried to gain their release through hearings before the Alien Enemy Hearing Board established to handle men’s cases:
"The proceedings were a complete farce," recalled [detainee Masuo Yasui's] son, Minoru, himself a Nisei activist who had challenged the curfew laws in Portland and attended his father’s hearings. "The most incredible thing was when they produced childlike drawings of the Panama Canal showing…drawings of how the locks worked. The hearing officer took these out and asked, "Mr. Yasui, what are these?" Dad looked at the drawings and diagrams and said, ‘They look like drawings of the Panama Canal.’ They were so labeled, with names of the children. Then the officer asked my father to explain why they were in our home. ‘If they were in my home,’ my father replied, ‘it seems to me that they were drawings done by my children for their schoolwork.’
"The officer then asked, ‘Didn’t you have these maps and diagrams so you could direct the blowing up of the canal locks?’ My father said, ‘Oh, no! These are just the schoolwork of my children.’ The officer said, ‘No, we think you’ve cleverly disguised your nefarious intent and are using your children merely as cover. We believe you had intent to damage the Panama Canal.’ To which my father vehemently replied, "No, no, no!’ And then the officer said pointedly, ‘Prove that you didn’t intend to blow up the Panama Canal!’"
Neiwert’s book is an important part of the immigration conversation, a sober reminder that as a nation of immigrants the United States has experienced waves of such hysteria in the past. By taking a microcosmic look at the experiences of Japanese immigrants in the city of Bellevue, Washinigton he makes it possible to place in perspective the catterwauling of such petty, small-minded beasts as Michelle Malkin and paint a portrait of what it portends for all of us if her nonsense goes unchecked.




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Jane!
Fitz!
Dave!
OK, now that we’ve gotten the silliness out of the way….
Dave, what’s become of the weird thesis Michelle Malkin tried to promulgate in “In Defense of Internment”? Your book served to set the record straight for us reality-based people; but has her argument taken root anywhere, or (to mix metaphors) grown legs?
Thank you for covering Neiwert’s excellent work, Jane.
For those unfamiliar, it would help you in the discussion to understand the terms issei, nisei and sansei.
It might also offer some perspective to think about the heroism of Senator Daniel Inouye. He was not the only nisei/sansei to fight for this country — and not the only one to have such fierce devotion.
This book is fantastic, written in a voice that resonates so well throughout, and on a subject that truly is a national shame. Thanks so much to David for the work he put into this book — well done.
My last job in Seattle before moving to Alaska in 1973, was working as a crane operator at Main Fish Company, at Pier 60 in Seattle. The company was owned by Martin Hikara, one of the most understanding bosses I’ve ever had.
His Nisei family lost everything in 1942, and expcept for young men who enlisted in the Army or Marines, his relatives spent the war in Idaho behind barbed wire. Martin’s farms were in the Green River Valley, near where Southcenter is now. They were given nothing for the farms or other property and businesses. Most of the siezed property was auctioned in sleazy, corrupt setups, with a high percentage ending up in the hands of local Republican and Democratic Party functionaries and wealthy property investors.
After the War, Martin, his brothers and cousins made it all back, and then some, all his immediate family becoming millionaires by the mid-1970s.
Rayne — that’s a great link, very informative. Thanks much. There are so many cultural intricacies tied up in so much of this — and it still amazes me (although after the last 5 years, it shouldn’t given the lemming mentality that still prevails on some level) that this could occur in America with so little out-cry. Shameful.
I really appreciate David’s work covering the Patriot/Militia/Minutemen movements and racist gangs/KKK. He has some excellent sources that he has developed that allow him to do some sensational journalistic work on this little covered but dangerous element of society.
ed*ard at 7 — good for them for moving forward and doing well, and shame on the families of those who are still, no doubt, profiting on the stealing of those lands. So many things done in the name of money and greed…so few of them ever good.
My partner’s family was sent to camps. His parents grew up in camps. I’ve just printed this post out for him for when he gets home.
ed*ard teller — thanks for that, always good to hear about success in the wake of such harm.
I think the American community at large didn’t really grok what it had done to Asian-Americans and new Asian immigrants through the Chinese Exclusion Act, overturned in 1943; in some ways, the internment was an extension of previous anti-Asian sentiment revisited.
Mrs. Robinson 4 — David will be with us next week. But to your question, I think Malkin’s book was roundly debunked everywhere and beloved by those who care not.
Rayne 12 — That’s actually where the book starts. The rhetoric is oh so similar. They’re sexual deviants, trying to take all the good jobs, they won’t assimilate, they’re morally inferior, blah blah blah. The bigots just really have a “greatest hits” list they drag out every once in a while I think.
One of the reasons “Strawberry Days” is such a great addition to the literature is that it’s the first book (that I’m aware of, anyway) that looks at the larger political picture surrounding the internments. We’ve had Jeanne Watanabe’s excellent “Farewell to Manzanar,” and all kinds of debates about the rightness of the action (cf Malkin), but nothing that really looked for the deeper cultural reasons this happened, or the specific personalities and rhetoric that drove it.
I think “Days” fills that gap. Reading it, it easy to imagine these same sorts of promoters in the Chamber of any small town; or visualize the casual racists in one’s own family blithely making choices that lead down this path. The closeness of his lens makes it easy to see how it could happen here. Those people and attitudes are still with us; and with them lies the frighteningly real potential for a replay of this entire episode.
How does David Neiwert do what he does and remain a sane human being.
Jane: thanks for the clarification. I mostly asked the question about Malkin as a conversation-starter; I know Dave can hold forth on the details…
As for the rhetoric: My God, who *hasn’t* this line been trotted out on? Blacks? Irish? Chinese? Jews? And now Mexicans. Every new immigrant group in their turn. You’d think after 300 years or so we’d get past this, as each incoming group bore the scars and vowed never to forget them.
I guess our grandparents die too soon.
I was an exchange student in Germany years ago (West Germany, at the time), and arrived there a couple of days after an ABC television miniseries on the Holocaust had shown on one of their national television networks. It provoked an amazing cross-generation discussion, as the older folks were trying to come to terms with what had happened (sometimes talking about it out loud for the first time since the war ended), and the younger ones trying to understand how something like that could have happened at all.
The same dynamic is at work in the US when the discussion turns to race. “Gosh, grandpa and grandma, how could the people of your day ever have let thousands and thousands of people get removed from their homes and sent to camps, just because of their race?” To the young, it feels like centuries ago; to the old, it seems like just yesterday – or tomorrow.
Mrs. Robinson @ 2:23 hit it right on the head. A replay is still not out of the question. Anyone remember the rightwing’s early reaction to gays and the discovery of the AIDS virus? . . .
Fear of the “other” is a nasty, nasty thing. Exposure to direct sunlight, on the other hand, can do wonders for killing it off.
I am sure Neiwart covers the reparation thing in his book, but here is a quick summary
My brother married a Japanese-American woman from California whose family owned a successful farm and were interned. Naturally, the farm was taken from them and never returned after the War. The old man never recovered from his heartbreak. So this atrocity touched my family directly.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ubi…..Page13.htm
I don’t know if Neiwart goes into it, but the Japanese in Hawaii were not relocated. In fact, many young Japanese men from Hawaii were drafted or volunteered and became part of the famous “Go-for-Broke” 141st Infanty Battalion, the most decorated unit in WWII.
Senator Inouye served in that regiment and lost an arm, led an attack on a German position and was awarded the Medal of Honor.
http://www.medalofhonor.com/DanielInouye.htm
And, lest we come down too hard on the US, the Canadians also interned their Japanese-Canadian citizens during WWII.
And for their part, did the Imperial Japanese commit atrocities in areas they conquered, esp. in China? Yes, indeed.
Hatred, fear, and brutality are universal traits among supposedly evolved human beings.
Mrs. Robinson — yes, exactly, the brown-skinned peoples have all had their turn in the same barrel. Imagine my lack of surprise at the uproar over the puppy-rape story in Florida a month or two ago; I wondered how much of that was propaganda against Hispanics when immigration was so hot a topic.
We have made some progress in the last 100 years; I am the progeny of Asian-Pacific Islander and Nordic-European parents. My parents did not experience the kind of social stigma that many before them suffered. On the other hand, my father’s family name was lost to us because of whites’ inability or refusal to understand immigrant cultures. Instead of being the Chinese equivalent of Johnson, I now have an obscure name that even Chinese struggle to recognize. How do to put a price on that?
Thank goodness my father’s family lived in Hawaii; at least there, with so many Asian peoples it is all understood and part of the local culture. It must have been (still be) so difficult for assimilation here on the mainland. Internment for Japanese here on the mainland must have been but one more harsh slap in a string of slaps.
Redd & Rayne,
Several Japanese employees at Main Fish Company had been interned. The old intern group would play mah jong (sp?) in the company break room during lunch, and sometimes after work. They’d bet and joke in Japanese, but sometimes they’d open up a game to non-Japanese workers too. I heard some great stories! Not just about the camps, but about racism towards Japanese in Seattle over the years.
My favorite guy there, a co-worker when we had to move tons of ice from the ice maker to a boat at the dock or onto tons of fish recently offloaded from a dragger, was a guy named Takeo. He played poker too. He learned poker from American Navy sailors late in WWII. Takeo had been in the Japanese Navy – a gunner on four destroyers. All four were sunk between late 1942 and late 1944, when he was picked up, unconscious, by the crew of an American landing craft in the Philippines. He liked Americans so much, he finally emigrated in the 60s.
Peter, we *still* can’t have those conversations at my house.
My parents are card-carrying liberals (my mom is a state-level Dem organizer and has run for high office herself). But my stepdad, now 78, grew up in East LA when it was still a Jewish-Irish ghetto — he remembers the Pachuco Wars.
And you still cannot convince him that the internment was a bad idea. To this day, he’s absolutely convinced that there were Japanese cells relaying messages to subs in Long Beach harbor. It’s totally irrational; but the beliefs he picked up in his teens are still in his bones, and will be there until death. He will not apologize for them.
The rest of us just roll our eyes, change the subject, and vow never to allow him anywhere near public policy decisions . Frankly, I think confronting and admitting the extent of the damage he bore witness to would be too painful to bear.
I grew up not far from Manzanar. The grownups would seldom discuss it with us; we were not taught much about its history in school. I think they were ashamed, too.
Neiwert is my favorite NW blogger. His coverage of white supremacists is unparalleled.
(Hello Ed*ward Teller!)
Good news! http://www.latimes.com/news/na…..-headlines
Rayne: interestingly, it’s not just the brown-skinned people who got the treatment. The Irish, the Poles, the Italians, and the Germans all got it in their turn.
In all these cases, there was a large dollop of religious bias added. These groups were all Catholic, and their arrival through the 19th century challenged the national hegemony enjoyed by Protestants. Some of the early proponents of mass public schooling sold it with arguments that it was needed to assimilate these Papist hordes, lest the whole country turn Catholic. (The Catholics, of course, responded in short order by setting up a vast system of parochial schools to counter this attempt to co-opt their kids.)
Not that being Protestant helped the Japanese. Dave points out in his book that a good percentage of the Japanese on the west coast had adopted Protestantism. They still ended up on the buses and trains.
Every racist is against illegal immigration, but not everyone who is against illegal immigration is racist. There is no readily apparent way to sort the two out, other than listen to their reasoning.
I oppose illegal immigration based on the following three reasons.
1. As progressives, we expect out government to abide by, and enforce, the law. That is what PlameGate, FISA, etc. are all about – the rule of law. How can we be consistent if we make an exception for our immigration policy, and say, it’s ok to break this law? If more immigrants were truly needed in this country, Congress could amend existing law to accomodate such need. The reason they don’t is they know the majority of their constituents oppose wholesale immigration. The reason Congress looks the other way brings me to my second point;
2. Illegal immigration lowers the bar for corporations to exploit not only the immigrant, but us. I don’t know about you, but I think corporations have enough horsepower in this country. And think about this. When we accept the benefits of illegal immigration, we tell those corporations our principles can be bought for the right price. Doesn’t that make us just like them?
3. We taxpayers subsidize businesses that use illegal immigrants. We pay for their health care and education while business reaps larger profits. I’ve heard the argument the illegal immigrants lowers costs that we pay. Bullshit! I may pay a few cents less for my lettuce (or the agribusiness could line their pockets), but my taxes have certainly gone up. Lettuce is a choice; taxes are not.
Illegal immigration is just one more corporate tool to diminish middle and working class resources. Think about this. What would wages be if there were no illegal immigrants? Market forces would have raised the pay of blue collar workers. Business would rather eat their children than give employees a meaningful raise. And I have to wonder – how many of us would begrudge paying a market rate for the services we receive?
Now having said that, we can’t round these folks up and ship them back. What we can do is diminish what attracts them. I’d start by throwing a few business types who openly and notoriously hire illegals in jail.
hey, shoephone! You are awsome. My laptop futzed on me the day after we met up this week, so I’m using one of my brothers’ computers today. Great dinner Wednesday!
As many problems as Seattle itself has had with racism over the years, the countryside areas around Western Washington can still be very backward. Dave Neiwert has pegged a lot of these creeps over the last few years. I’m glad this book is being covered, because I’ve been thinkng of getting it.
I grew up in Nromandy Park, south of Seattle. Until about 1966, it was illegal to rent or sell property there to blacks, latinos, orientals or jews. This was a small city which prided itself in other ways about its progress.
shoephone
On an earlier thread, you mentioned reading about the Federalists’ justifications for the Alien and Sedition Acts in the 1790s, and noted how closely their arguments track with BushCo and the War on Terror. I’ve been reading about the same thing, from the perspective of the publisher of the American Aurora, Benjamin Franklin Bache – and having the very same thoughts.
I’d love to see what a good screenwriter could do with Strawberry Fields, to turn it into a miniseries for television. (For those of you of a certain age, think “Roots” with WWII in place of the Civil War.) If only we knew where to find someone like that, who understands politics, small town dynamics, race and racism, and the television/movie/entertainment business . . .
Arab/Islamic “terrorists” mostly from Saidi Arabia, attacked the US. So attacking Arab/Islamics in Afghanistan and Iraq is justified because it is self evident that there is a connection to terrorism.
Other Arab/Islamists take over Palestine, so we are justified in imposing immediate sanctions on these “terrorists,” and Israel is justified in attacking these terrorists.
Arab/Islamists take over Southern Lebanon, so they are “terrorists” and Israel is justifed in attacking these “terrorists.”
So how does the US government treat Arabs/Islamists in the US? Well, there have been a number of secret arrests, indefinite detentions without charges, denial of access to attorneys and continuing efforts to make sure those detained/held/rendered/possibly tortured do not have access to court review. The prevailing view in our current congress is that we need legislation to ensure that is the case.
We are living through another Spring for Strawberry Days, brought on by similar views of yet another “them,” who are now the “enemy.”
FWIW, we also put Germans and Italians in internment camps.
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/han…..quwby.html
During WWII, the local tax collector and judge (they happened to be brothers) were declared essential civilian personnel and did not go to war. While every able bodied farmer was off fighting the war, these two bastards foreclosed on every property they could that had been in families for generations, due to back taxes. They wound up two of the biggest property owners in the county.
The color that REALLY matters is green. Skin color and ethnicity just enables the elite to know who they’re exploiting at the moment – Irish, Chinese, Africans, etc. Right now, it is the working class’s, regardless of skin color, turn in the barrel.
Diogenes: NOBODY supports illegal immigration, especially on the left. We would very much like to see the current laws enforced *in their entirety*, which means penalizing the people who hire them. Those laws are on the books. Nobody is enforcing them.
You’re shooting at a straw man, and pulling us off-topic as well.
The point of the Japanese immigrants is that they were not only here legally; many of them were native-born citizens. To wit: if the government can take away their land and imprison them, they can do the exact same thing to you.
That precedent has been set. Our grandparents and parents spent 40 years of soul-searching, trying to figure out how to turn it back. The fact that there are people now advocating it as a hot new idea is a sobering testament to their failure.
diogenes — I did not intend to equate those who oppose illegal immigration with bigots. I tried carefully at the top of the post to qualify my comments by saying bigots take advantage of a broken immigration system to whip up indignation and forward their agenda. That does not mean I think the system as-is does not need to be fixed, or that anyone who finds fault with it is a racist.
Mrs. Robinson,
The post points to similiarities bewteen racism that led to internment, and the racism of the Minutemen. Not a conflation I disagree with either. OTOH, opposing illegal immigrants is not necessarily racist – a reasonable leap in logic as I responded to the post, as I read it.
Colorado Governor Ralph Carr welcomed Japanese-American detainees, and was voted out of office after one term. There is a bronze bust of Governor Carr is Sakura Square, honoring him for his contribution. In a speech defending the rights of the displaced Japanese-Americans, Carr said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Lawrence_Carr
Jane,
I never thought you had, and I totally agree with your reply.
That is the downside to virtual conversations – you miss voice inflection, body language, etc.
I try to tread carefully here, because you have no idea how it is to have Pat Buchanan making some of your same points, for the wrong reasons – ugghhhh!
Wow, ck. What an awesome story. Thanks.
Spudboy RULES!
As those of you who’ve been following him across Greater Blogistan know, Mr.Neiwert is THE expert on the Radical Right.
And when I say Radical Right, I don’t mean Geekshows like Couler and Malangalang. I’m talkin’ Aryan Nation. Serious stuff folks, and not to be overlooked in light of our Rogue Government.
ck — yes, that’s a great story.
diogenes — I just wanted to be clear. I’m very much in sympathy with your points.
diogenes — hmmm…I think a look around my neck of the woods at the numbers of Germans who weren’t interned in WWII says something.
Your arguments about illegal immigration might hold water if the problems with our immigration system weren’t so numerous. Like 7 years wait to be processed; what is a parent with children supposed to do when their home country can’t support them, allow the children to starve or try and work illegally until their paperwork is processed? The political footdragging to resolve the matter is tantamount to a decision. So is failing to address the root cause of immigration, legal or otherwise; why do people want to come here, instead of stay where they are? if it’s because their homeland is in economic or political turmoil, does it matter whether the immigrants are here legally or no? Does that not mean that the root cause is knocking on our door?
Mrs. Robinson — I made the point yesterday in another thread that other immigrants, legal or not, had also experienced bias — but that only persons who look different, are not white, face the long-term multi-generation attitude of “becoming American”. The names Reagan and Kennedy are surely an indication of how American the Irish immigrants have become. The fact that a substantive number of Americans will not entertain a person of color as President is also an indication of these persons of color not yet “becoming American” in the eyes of white America.
peterr @27
…and also just happens to know the Northwest like the back of her hand..?
Got anyone in mind?
(BTW – the Geoffrey Stone book is excellent. And Bache was arrested and charged with libeling Pres. Washington and the entire “Executive Govt” in June of 1798, even before the Sedition Act passed.)
1. I agree with most of what diogenes writes. You can oppose illegal immigration without being a rascist. And, as Mr. Barbaro (? I forget his last name…the guy that writes the weekly union issues report), as he documents, illegal immigrants take American jobs and generally pull down wage rates. But I don’t “blame” the immigrants…they’re just hungry, looking for work.
2. Didn’t the Supreme Court rule on this whole relocation issue many years ago?;
Ghostman
One of Dave’s biggest contributions has been documenting just how often (and how quickly) the radical rhetoric of the Aryan Nations and their ilk end up coming out of the mouths of people like Coulter and Malkin and Rush. They just get right up there on the national airwaves and start spouting Tom Metzger…and we’ve held still for it for 20 years now.
Can you imagine what would happen if, oh, say, Keith Olbermann started parroting Noam Chomsky? He’d be off the air faster than than Cheney’s trigger finger.
Ghostman — we don’t have the same Supreme Court now, do we? Do you really think a Scalia-Roberts-Alito-Thomas court will have the same finding on relocation?
shoephone –
Lemme just put my feet up here by the fire at the lake, scratch behind the ears of this poddle that strolled by, and see if I can come up with a name . . .
ET, this isn’t the time, but there’s a poem I’ve been wanting to share with you (and any onlookers), only we’re hardly ever here simultaneously. Maybe we could make a “date” for that purpose?
rayne, 43: well, ma’m, I don’t recall how the court ruled. That’s why I asked.
Ghostman
(Of course you knew this was coming — )
“Oh, Diogenes!
Find a man who’s honest!
Oh, Diogenes!
Wrap him up for me
Oh, Diogenes!
Find a man who’s stolid-solid
Hook that fish if he’s in the sea
Hunt him! Trail him!
Catch him! Nail him!
If he is free
Have you got your stick?
Have you got your lantern?
Can you do the trick
And produce him, please!
Catch that fellow!
Ring that bell,
Oh,
Oh!
Oh, Diogenes!”
Rayne,
I agree – the lack of a decision is a decision. That’s a point I tried to make “If more immigrants were truly needed in this country, Congress could amend existing law to accomodate such need.”
How to fix this? Well, rounding them up and shipping them back is both immoral and undoable. Doing nothing is doable, but blue (and as time goes along, white)collar Americans are going to keep going backwards economically.
Personlly, I’d like to see the illegals who have established roots put on a path to citizenship – what else can we do? That’d cut down on exploiting them. At the same time, I’d like to come down big-time on folks who hire them, rent to them, etc.
Indeed, David Ehrenstein, spudboy rules.
Love the Orcinius site but don’t have the book yet. I’ll pick it up this week.
lotus @ #45:
cool. I’m looking for some new lyrics. I’ll be back home in Alaska on the 7th. Until then, with my lapsing laptop returning to Anchorage with my son tonight (to the repair shop), I’m only going to be able to catch up here and there.
BTW, I was commenting above on aspects of Seattle’s racist past, saying that things have gotten better. Most here know about the tragic shootings at Seattle’s Jewish Federation on Friday. This morning’s combined Seattle Times/PI contained the first comprehensive coverage of this event, and I was gladdened that the writers were careful to highlight and research the shooter’s overriding mental instability as more important than his ethnic and religious background.
No argument from me, Rayne. Throughout the Southwest, you can find people with Spanish surnames whose Mexican ancestors lived in California or Colorado centuries before the Anglos showed up. Yet, in the current climate, they’re treated like they just walked over the border this morning. For some people, it IS all about race.
Still, I think there are some really promising black and brown leaders emerging at the national level now (and, interestingly, in both parties). You need to have a critical mass of people at that level before one of them can pop into the White House. There are signs that we’re starting to get there.
Most of these people are members of the post-Civil-Rights generation. Born in the 50s and 60s, they are now seasoning into power at mid-life; and they’ve got another 25 years ahead of them to make things happen.
There’s a similar wave of women coming up, too. But, since the women’s movement didn’t really happen until the 70s, they’re about 10-15 years behind.
It’s painfully glacial, but progress does happen. The good news is that we haven’t really reaped all the fruit of the 60s yet — but we will in the next couple decades as the children of that era come of age.
Teller, I was just a few blocks away when it happened. The Seattle TV stations have also been very sensitive on the point that it was personal, not political, issues at play.
It’s always so inspiring to see journalists actually doing their jobs for a change.
An unenforceable law or a law unenforced engenders a lack of respect, if not outright scorn, for laws in general. I fear we see this everywhere in our society now. With the authoritarians in full howl, I don’t see it changing any time soon, either.
The employers of illegal workers have had a free ride for far too long, so I am all for enforcing the law–on them. Make it hurt until it is no longer economical, which means fines that rise above “the cost of doing business” (the curse of many environmental laws) and/or imprisonment. THEN, completely redo the immigration laws of this country.
I wonder how the recent election returns would have looked were not so very many Mexican nationals in this country trying to support their families and communities. I have seen first hand the poverty in a part of Mexico long ago looted of trees and other natural resources, and can fully understand the lure of gringo green.
It takes me so long to write these things (the inner copy editor demands proofing and rewriting unto EPU) that I’m long out of the conversation loop, but. FWIW
More on Ralph Carr –
http://wildapples.typepad.com/…..imple.html
The Japanese are starting the same tide of immigration which we thought we had checked twenty years ago …
My guess is that you could find similar things written about Irish immigrants in the 1840s, and just about any other wave of immigrants. There’s something depressingly familiar about it all.
And oh, I had an uncle who was German and quite outspokenly a Nazi sympathizer (this was in the 40’s, of course). He’d married into the Slovak family of which I was a wee scion, and had scared them badly with his loud and frequent extolling of the 3rd Reich. My child memory is of an obnoxious bully, but fortunately that tiny branch of the family was far enough away to be seldom encountered. He was certainly not interned or even questioned, or challenged by the neighbors. Yeah, looks like us. . . must be okay.
If one is interested in the oppression and exploitation of another group of Asians by American corporate interests and the U.S. government, check out what the so called Chinese coolies endured in California under the railroad robber barons and the the greedy California gold rush criminal-entrepreneurs. These folks were treated with less respect than pack-mules. At the time, this kind of horrid activity was condoned by this country as being necessary to facilitate implementation of “manifest destiny”.
Reply to Diogenes #26:
I don’t disagree with you on the subject of illegal immigration, but with respect to our southern border the question cannot be addressed solely by a rule of law argument or a labor exploitation one. The reality is that the flow of workers across the US-Mexican border is, in large measure, intrinsic to the nature, history and custom of that border. Border economies, remittance patterns, the economic structure of California agriculture (for centuries), family structures, etc etc all depend on these labor flows. The laws you reference (and their putative enforcement today) were the product of a moment in history far shorter than the heritage of the flows you reference. And these laws were, in some measure, promulgated in violation of earlier laws and treaties (back to the open borders language contained in the original 1848 accord that defined the border in question in the first place). So are you then arguing that, as Democrats, we must enforce the rule of law (such rule and such law as interpreted by our current Republican misadministration) by militaristically and ruthlessly violating our own earlier laws?
The nature of the US-Mexican border is extremely complex, and defies reduction to either rule-of-law or labor-rights arguments. If we choose to confront this this incredible geographical, cultural, historical and legal complexity in its entirety with historical reductionism, higher walls, and the National Guard, then we will only be encouraging the type of cultural alienation, fragmentation and schizophrenia we saw in the borderlands today… and 30 years from now, I predict that we WILL be looking, along the borderlands, at the very type of separatism and perhaps even secessionism that the nativists profess to fear today. To avoid this, we need creative solutions beyond “we have to enforce the law”…. For a good treatment of these complexities, check our Michael Dear’s collection of articles in “Postborder City: Cultural Spaces of Bajalta California”
David,
Yes, I’ve seen that before! I apologize for inadvertently stepping on the conversation here – not my intention. The thing is, I don’t disagree at all with you. As a son of the old South, I am quite familiar with the many ways racism manifests itself, and you describe them well. As you well know, the thread from your every day racist to Coulter and Limbaugh, to the radical Christians (check out how many people of color attend their churches and schools!), to the White House runs strong and true. A virtual reverb chamber.
Let me take a slightly different tack. Every racist is anti-immigrant, because of who immigrants are. Brown people, black people, ‘mud’ people, etc. The ‘other’.
I am against ILLEGAL immigration, because of what it represents. More exploitation of citizen and illegal alike, weakening of the rule of law,and a decline in the status of citizens economically and legally.
diogenes and Jane,
We do not have an illegal immigration problem. We have an illegal employer problem. But then, they are prolly white guys who vote and donate.
Not long after WWII a very good movie was made that dealt with this issue.
It was remade several years later as Yojimbo
I was surprised to find that the one who taught me to read, Dr. Seuss, was a political cartoonist who drew up support for the internment camps, to his very own everlasting shame.
Hypatia, that’s an interesting point.
I once had a long talk with an Afghani economist who left the country ahead of the Soviets in the early 80s. He said that the country was bled dry of talent in phases. First, the richest capital-holders left. Then the lesser capital-holders — the prosperous business owners and bankers. Then the professional class: doctors, professors, engineers, and government officials — the people with the expertise to keep large systems running.
Then, as things deteriorated, the skilled trades people and lower-paid professionals left. When they were gone, there was nobody around who could wire a house, fix a toilet, build a road, set a broken bone. At that point, the only people left were the ones too uneducated, poor, or backward to leave. They were the ones who put the Taliban in power.
This is a parable for the way things are going in Iraq now — and for how they might go in Mexico if the boldest and most entrepreneurial citizens are allowed to keep leaving. Kevin Phillips has forcefully made the point (over and over) that democracy ceases to funtion in the absence of a large and healthy middle class. Lose that, and you revert to feudal tyranny.
It’s hard to look at the immigration situation and not think that there are people who are just itching to profit from the destruction of the middle class of both countries.
I admit this is getting way off-topic. Apologies.
Isn’t Yojimbo, the movie that was remade in a spaghetti western starring Clint Eastwood and remade again as a prohibition era flick starring Bruce Willis in “Last Man Standing?”
Blub,
I believe I said Congress could change the laws to accomodate needs.
They should do do – as Hypatia said, an uneforced law breds comtempt (or words to that effect!)
In the meanwhile, I cannot in good conscience ask for the impeachment of the President for violating the law on one hand, and say welcome stranger!, and damn that pesky immigration law on the other.
I’m a better man than he is.
“Bad Day at Black Rock” was remade as “Yojimbo?”
I’m going to dispute that at least until I can do a little research on it.
Mrs. Robinson,
“This is a parable for the way things are going in Iraq now — and for how they might go in Mexico if the boldest and most entrepreneurial citizens are allowed to keep leaving. Kevin Phillips has forcefully made the point (over and over) that democracy ceases to funtion in the absence of a large and healthy middle class. Lose that, and you revert to feudal tyranny.
It’s hard to look at the immigration situation and not think that there are people who are just itching to profit from the destruction of the middle class of both countries.”
Exactly so! The dragon of the rest of my days!
“I cannot in good conscience ask for the impeachment of the President for violating the law on one hand, and say welcome stranger!, and damn that pesky immigration law on the other.”
I’m sorry but that’s just silly to equate the highest Constitutional officer in our government and his pattern of illegalities with someone coming across the border looking for work. What’s next? Let go the murderer because someone jaywalked?
Minutemen leader Chris Simcox, quoted in Dave’s article in this month’s Seattle Magazine on “The Minutemen of Whatcom County”:
“I feel that the people that are coming across, invading this country, I think that they should be treated as enemies of the state. We need to be putting them in work camps. Anyone could walk through these borders of this country bringing bombs, chemicals, weapons of mass destruction. I think they should be shot on sight, personally.”
Miller Freeman said stuff almost exactly like this about the Japanese of Whatcom County (and Skagit, and King) in the 1930s.
Those are the parallels that deserve a closer look.
Mrs. Robinson @ 4:00 pm (#63) – There are differences between immigration from places like Afghanistan in the ’80s and Mexico. Many Mexicans just sneek over here to work for a while, and then return to Mexico. As long as the border is as porous as it is now, that’s a fairly easy thing to do. One consequence of making the border harder to cross might be that more illegal immigrants choose to stay here rather than return, as it would be too difficult to get back here if they wanted.
Anyhow, there’s only so much you can learn from that situation. The Mexicans have been coming over the border for some time. It’s a way of life for them. Afghanistan was a case of people fleeing a situation that was getting worse.
As long as there is as much economic disparity as there is between the U.S. and Mexico, you will have illegal border crossings. There’s too much motivation for people to come here. The only thing that’s going to “cure” the illegal immigrant problem is closing that gap somehow. The other things, even punishing employers, will probably only ameliorate it somewhat.
#59 and #65,
Again, writing from a perspective of somebody who comes from (and whose ancestors come from) the area around the US-Mexican border, the laws that you reference seem to me to be a lot less entrenched and established than you seem to indicate they are. Earlier laws, as well as generations of custom and practice, foresaw an open border for those Americans and Mexicans native to that region… laws that the laws you reference effectively repudiated or ignored when nativists, Republicans and outsiders passed them.
As we’re seeing in Palestine, no law can rewrite centuries of customary practice or take out social/ethnic/cultural complexity out of a physical/geographical place. Blindly enforcing laws that may very well have been illegal in the first place won’t solve our immigration problems and will create other ones that, over time, could become every bit as intractable as those in the Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Cyprus or whatever. You can’t legislate the division of families, identities and histories without consequences. I think you’re missing the point and missing the complexity intrinsic to the particular problems of the US-Mexican frontier. I can’t speak to issues like immigration from Asia or other parts of the world, but the US-Mexican frontier is a different issue, and it can only be solved by solutions that arise out of understanding for its unique history.
Yojimbo was indeed remade as A Fistful of Dollars. As for Last Man Standing it was a half-hearted attempt at Red Harvest — which Bertolucci wanted to make for many years and never did.
Not the point I’m making. If I start picking and choosing which laws I’m going to obey, well, that’s just what Bush is doing.
Now, if the law were morally repugnant, say of Dred Scott proportions, THEN we’d be bound to ignore it.
In our representative democracy, there are many laws I find ill-founded or just plain silly.
There is a mechanism (slow and cumbersome, to be sure) to fix that.
My duty as a citizen is to abide by the current stupid law, and work to change it. Not ignore it and break it.
Now, a few illegals versus the Fourth Amendment? One thing. 11 to 20 million, that change the terms of citizenship in this country? Another.
Last Man Standing was a remake of Fistful of Dollars. Both no-name heroes got seriously thumped in the same wine cellar, played both ends against the middle and saved the virtous victim seperated from her family in a loss at cards.
Anyway, seriously OT. Sorry Jane.
Certainly, the differences between Afghanistan and Mexico are numerous (though the analogy works almost perfectly for Iraq). But the point remains that, as Mexico continues to lose its most ambitious and entrepreneurial people, it also depletes the force that impels it to become a functioning modern democracy.
Someone upthread said that if more of the Mexicans in America had been home to vote, the election might have come out quite differently. I don’t doubt that. Instead, they’re gonna get more of the same — which doesn’t help Mexican or American workers.
But for the Mexican aristocracy, the ability to export these people is an escape valve that allows them to delay accountability for their corruption. In Mexico, they don’t talk much about the fact that a couple of states are only tenuously in the grip of the government, and that rebellion occasional erupts into open warfare. Such talk scares the tourists, and makes them look like a banana republic –something they’re very sensitive about. But it’s true. In Oaxaca and Michoacan, the class struggle is often a shooting war. And America’s porous border is the release valve that keeps the whole nation from taking up arms and staging a third revolution.
Still, we’re far afield of the Japanese internment now. Which suggests that it’s still a dark shadow of history that a lot of people under 60 don’t know very much about. And that’s a shame, because on the domestic front, that era provides an eerily accurate mirror of these same discussions we’re having now.
Oops. I meant Chiapas, not Michoacan. Sorry.
We seem to have got abit far afield from “Strawberry Days”- but I have to wholheartedly agree with Blub’s comments on the border issues. Nothing so well illustrates the fact that a border (even one marked with a river) is an “imaginary line”, a legal concept only.
The anti-immigrants, even some on the other side, are always talking as though a border were a clear, sharp divide, obvious and concrete. Such as, with the border “porous as it is now”…no, borders are always porous unless they’re physically impossible to cross, or defended every 50 yards or so.
No legal concept, imaginary line, etc., is going to mean squat to a man(or woman) who can’t find a way to feed his family in his home country, but knows that work and sustenance are just a long walk north (or whatever direction). He’s gonna make that walk, and if you stop himand send him back, he’s gonna do it again, and again.
Thinking otherwise is another form of not living in the reality-based world.
Our little scrap of history (four or five centuries, even less) where we profess to believe in “borders” as sacred do-not-cross lines is a small part of human history. Just look at European history, never mind the rest of the world – human populations have been migrating back and forth across the continent since pre-history. The Anglo-Saxons weren’t even the native population of Britain, the various groups of Slavs moved back and forth for milennia, the Mongols and Tatars (or were they the same folks with different names, have to check that) invaded and moved back, the visigoths moved from northern europe to the south, the NOrmans,in France,and Britain, are called that because they were originally the North(Norse)men, from the North, e.g., Viking-types.
Migration cannot be stopped by laws. The sooner we recognize that and quit the silly argument about desperate people being treated like criminals for breaking the law, the sooner we can start working on ways to help their own countries find work for them that will induce them to stay home.
There. Rant over. Didn’t look up any facts, so if some assertions are slightly off, forgive me. General point remains. Borders aren’t “real.”
Borders aren’t “real.”
On a more abstract, theoretical level, the ideas of MM Bakhtin address thsi. I’m presently reading Rethinking Bakhtin.
Good stuff. MMB isn’t Marxist enough for me, but still…
rorschach-you mentioned Bakhtin on another thread as literary – I seem to vaguely recal the name from distant college lang/linguistics study – is that right? Know any links on the web? You’ve piqued my curiosity now.
Many Hispanic families in New Mexico and Colorado settled here before it was part of the United States, and some were here before there was a United States. Ken Salazar’s family is one of these, and both he and his fellow La Raza (The Roots) have been subject to the same discrimination as more recent Mexican Immigrants. There is significant tension between the Chicano and Mexican communities, btw.
If you have no borders you have no country. Good fences make for good neighbors.
(cliche’ off)
tejanarusa:
For Bakhtin, check here.
There’s a number of sites. He’s be rather in vogue since the 80s.
Many weaknesses, in my opinion, but he’s more useful than a lot of theorists. In fact, I’ve used him at least a little in all but one or two of my published essays.
Several years ago I was reading a fascinating book on Indiana’s various ethnicities where I learned the Allen side of my family came from the 3rd most ethnicly diverse county in the state: Vermillion Cty — I had only heard of “regular Americans” there except for a spaghetti restaurant owned by Italians.
Two summers ago I learned a family secret — my Grandpa Allen had been a member of the KKK in Indiana in the 1920s when it controlled state government. The Hoosier Klan was mainly against those damn foreign Pope-worshippers taking over America — Grandpa was a small farmer but his county had lots of foreign born coal miners. It all clicked together.
He died when I was only 10 — I remember him as a bitter, rough man.
Ducking and weaving there, diogenes. I’m assuming you have never jaywalked, never exceeded the speed limit, and never went through a light when it was “amber”. But then there is the out of a disobeying a “morally repugnant” law. Who decides what is repugnant or repugnant enough? Or is it like pornography that we all recognize it when we see it?
Those 11 to 20 million didn’t just sneak across the border last week. Where were the laws and law enforcement then? Why the concern now? What changed, other than this is an election year and immigration is a hot button issue?
It is all well and good to say that we should be law abiding but to think that illegal immigration is going to be solved by “now we’re going to enforce the laws” is extremely simplistic. In the absence of strong worker protection, a living wage vs the minimum wage, fair trade vs free trade, and economic development and opportunity in source countries, illegal immigration is not going away.
OFG:
If you have no borders you have no country. Good fences make for good neighbors.
I don’t disagree. But the idea of a country,ornation, is also a legal concept,essentially abstract. Yeah, in “modern times”we all theoretically respect the borders (OTOH there is ALWAYS lots of argument and litigation and sometimes fighting over precise delineations of borders — see current “palestine”, e.g., earlier US SCt cases between 2 states on the issue, etc.)
Yep, we need to all agree on what we recognize as a border. But human needs (see what’shis name’s self-actualization pyramid) like food and shelter trump any legal concept like a border or a nation.
See also, Sudan, Rwanda, Thailand refugee camps full of folks fleeing across the borders when violence or famine pushes them out of their home countries.
I’m just saying, this issue goes way beyond a nice tidy statement that the person who crossed the border without the legal paperwork/permission has simply broken the law, and there’s no further thought necessary. That way the solution to the problem does NOT lie.
Just sayin’.
The Mukai family is probably the most wel-known strawberry farming family in the Northwest. They owned a plot of land on Vashon Island and revolutionized the fruit farming industry by being the first ones to develop a sytem of freezing strawberries for shipping. In 1942 Masa Mukai, (who’d been running the farm since his father returned to Japan in the 1930’s) got tipped off by a friend in the army that the internment was about to begin. Mukai fled to Idaho, and though not interned there, did suffer racism and constant taunts. Rather than shying away from these incidents he held community meetings and talked about reinforcing the similarities between Americans, rather than the differences. Sounds hokey, perhaps, but it saved him. After the war he returned to Vashon – good friends had looked after the farm in his absence.
Years later, his son, who I believe was named either Arnold or Arthur, sold the farm to my friend Linda, with the understanding that it could be preserved (no pun intended) for placement on the National Register of Historic Places at some point soon. Mukai had gotten a ton of offers, but he sold to Linda because he trusted she was the only one with his same vision for its future.
She remodeled the house, saved the barn, and ran the place as her own little working farm for about seven years – growing herbs and vegetables, not strawberries. She also built a greenhouse. Linda eventually moved and there was a big fight over the registration process between Linda and Mukai vs. the powers-that-be. The good side won out, and the place is registered as historic. It has a stream running through the property and it’s really beautiful. The Mukai family contributed so much to Vashon’s history. It would have been a shame to lose that farm to developers.
The fact that we stole New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, and parts of Colorado from Mexico in the War of 1848 doesn’t bother most Minutemen types. The USA was able to do this because we had more people and a better military.
Now, Mexicans are taking their country back — one illegal immigrant at a time.
Oh, yeah. Both my parents are from Hoosier roots, and I’ve got a couple of these up the family tree as well.
Something like one-third of all the adult males in Indiana during the 20s were Klansmen — especially those who had small businesses or farms, and were “civic-minded” (which sure as hell describes my great-grandfather). All the old boys joined. It was the most political power the Klan ever achieved anywhere, with the possible exception of southern Oregon in the 40s.
ck – those people are not concerned with justice. They view everything through the prism of Manifest Destiny.
Thanks, Rorshach. I’m afraid theory makes my head hurt these days – guess it’s a good thing I decided NOT to major in linguistics after all. (g)
*ilson – interesting comment. I know when I was growing up in Indy I never thought about there BEING various ethnicities in Indiana. When we moved to Pittsburgh in my h.s. jr. yr., I was amazed by the variety of “ethnic” names of my new classmates and neighbors.
And, btw, re the Klan – one of my college friends at IU (this was 1967) was a Jewish girl from Brooklyn who was warned by her older relatives not to go to Indiana BECAUSE her life would be in danger from the Klan. It was the first I’d heard of there having been any Klan in the state – much later I learned how strong it had been there, in just the period you mention.
And, IIRC, wasn’t the horrible killing in Martinsville of a young black woman stranded there (in the late 60’s or early 70’s, right?) done by former (?) Klan members?
Funny how this stuff never came up in those Indiana History courses in grade school, huh?
As for “good fences make good neighbors”:
The problem with this fence is that there’s nothing “good” (useful, functional, easy-to-understand) about it.
And making it “good” is going to take a whole lot more than a few billiion dollars worth of concrete and razor wire.
#81: “If you have no borders..”
True. But surely it behooves us to be flexible and creative about how we enforce those borders. Simply saying, we need to enforce the “law”, is really just saying that whoever has the biggest gun gets his way (in defining those borders and in setting the laws that enforce them). AKA, the Bush doctrine.
Once upon a time a man who in many respects was just like Bush, (Polk was his name) decided to expand his empire. He picked a fight with one of his weaker neighbors, sent in his soldiers, took their land, and then dictated a border (while his soldiers occupied the capital city of the country he took the land from). To make things all legal, he out some promises, which he (and his Congress) subsequently decided to ignore. His successors then passed various laws, called immigration laws, about the nature of that border (which was little more than a line across the sand, cutting farms, ranches, families, and cultures in half.. as most such borders do). OK, help me out here.. so when you talk about the “need” to enforce the rule of law, what you’re really saying is, ‘I have a big enough stick to take your land and to keep it’… hardly enlightened policy. Well, maybe I shouldn’t complain, obviously it’s the one our current president ascribes to.
But I’d like to think we can be more creative than that in sorting out our social and political problems. I’m not saying that the 32nd parallel shouldn’t be a real border, but I have saying that those who have to cross it to feed their families should, perhaps, be given some degree of forbearance.
(Maslow)
America should be the guiding light, the pattern for others to use. Our founders fought the most powerful force on the planet to see its birth. Our history is replete with horrendous acts, such as the topic of the book we are supposedly discussing. All of this should be a learning curve and we should not now still be in an “all id” phase. Americans should not be allowed to profit from a powerless and terrified workforce. We fought a civil war to decide this issue. These lessons should be imported from us to grow organically in other nations and should not be exported at the point of a gun. No massive genocide exists in Mexico, and undocumented workers have shown the ability to organize and demonstrate. Those who profit from this modern version of slavery should be cast out of our economy.
End of speech. Dinner time.
Mrs. Robinson @ 4:26 pm (#75) – You’re right, we’re off-topic in a way, I’ll just say that I find the arguments unconvincing and leave it at that. Like many things, Mexican immigration, corruption, and revolutions are old stories. They don’t seem to improve with retelling. Even if you’re right, it doesn’t mean I’m wrong to say any attempts to control this problem that don’t involve changing the plight of the average Mexican will be utterly futile.
Unfortunately, this is related in one sense – we never seem to learn from the follies of previous generations. There are certainly folks out there who see no contradictions in lamenting Japanese internment and at the same time advocating discriminatory practices that are equally damaging and useless. We have the FBI (or some government agency) watching mosques, while at the same time we don’t have enough translators to transcribe all the intercepts we’re doing legitimately. And where are you most likely to find folks who speak fluent Arabic? Personally, I’d try the local mosque.
So, yes, other than the utter stupidity and greed of it all, I can’t really coment much on the Japanese internment. I didn’t know about Bellevue, but was certainly aware thanks to other reports that it was often an excuse for unethical people to enrich themselves. And, as in our modern times, we managed to alienate and ignore the most important potential source of translators we had. You could probably count on one hand the number of white folks in America back then who spoke fluent Japanese. Yet the largest combat unit with Japanese-Americans in it was sent to Europe. Go figure.
Like I said, old stories.
All Americans (except for Native Americans) are immigrants, and all came here for the same reason — to find a better life for themselves and their families.
Our current illegal immigration policy is more of a low wages and vulnerable workers problem, than anything else. If NAFTA and CAFTA had done what they promised, we wouldn’t have these problems. NAFTA and CAFTA were Trojan Horses, designed to profit Wall Street at the expense of workers everywhere.
Illegal Immigration is a class warfare problem, and the upper classes are winning.
I was proud when Ronald Reagan apologized for the internment of Japanese. It was one of those never again moments. So pre-911 I know with the current widespread and systematic violation of the Constitution. Who was it who said, What we learn from history is that we do not learn from history?
Hugh @ 5:01 pm (#96) – Santayana wrote that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Sadly, they appear to be taking the rest of us along for the ride.
The fact we stole the land belonging to “Indians” doesn’t bother Minutemen types either. They love it in fact. This country was founded on theft, genocide and rape.
And we’re intent on spreading “the American way of life” world wide.
and the Minutemen seem oblivious exactly how the USA acquired the northern half of Mexico in 1848 …
“We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.”
George Bernard Shaw. I googled it.
Jane
John Casper and I were talking on another thread about John Dean’s new book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Neither of us has read it, but heard good things about it. We were wondering if it might be considered for an FDL Book Salon selection.
David Ehrenstein @ 5:05 pm (#98) – Human history and prehistory is a seemingly endless tale of displacement and slaughter of one group of humans by another. There’s nothing especially American about it. The Indians were doing it to each other before Europeans arrived, and doubtless would have continued the pattern in their absence.
for that matter, I believe the Aztecs were originally north of the Rio Grande and migrated south to conquer Mexico — was Montezuma my long-lost cousin?
Sorry for the OT, but I’m done for the night and have been waiting for a new thread!
Connecticut Post (Bridgeport) endorsed Lieberman.
Mr Kirby went to the grocery today — Shaws in Wallingford and watch 12 people turn down Lieberman’s canvasser — and he was really annoying — didn’t want to take no for an answer. Great outreach! He may not be able to get the signatures. I think the Ds who are with him now because he is the party nominee will go to Ned if and when he wins because they respect the primary process. This could get interesting.
Back to regularly scheduled programming — see you tomorrow.
*ilson 103 – You’re right. The Aztec origin myth has them migrating from the North, from the mythical land called Aztlan– that’s what has the right wingnuts all riled up about Mexicans wanting to “restore” Aztlan.
They kept going until they saw the eagle with snake in its mouth that we now see on the Mexican flag, as foretold to them by…somebody. (oh, yes, I’m too lazy to look up — by the time I’d find it I’d be EPU’d for sure.)
more Hoosier history — in the early 1900s a number of Mexicans had migrated up to Lake County next to Chicago to work in the mills and factories. The Depression hit causing massive poverty and unemployment. Civic leaders with the help of the American Legion simply rounded up thousands of “illegal Mexicans”, put them in railroad freight cars like cattle and “shipped ‘em back to Mexico.”
#102
True. But I think that we need to sensitive to the human consequences of these land grabs in the way we promulgate policies in respect of those who have to live on the grabbed land (original inhabitants, their descendents and new inmigrants to those lands all). Nobody is going to argue that the 32nd parallel should not be the border between the US and Mexico, but that does not change the fact that, within the scope of modern times (not some ancient fight), we militarily conquered it (I’m willing to listen to arguments that there were a few Texans who legitimately raised the flag of self-determination, but the same cannot be said about the other three states involved). This land acquisition was no more legitimate than the various land grabs undertaken by Central and Axis powers inthe two wars, by China against Tibet, by Saddam’s Iraq of Kuwait and other infamous recent land grabs). OK, they’re a fact of RECENT (not ancient) history. They’re done. And in this case, it’s irrevocable.
But that does not mean we’re excused from taking special measures to recognize or celebrate the uniquely hybrid and sensitive nature of conquered lands.. requirements international law recognizes to be part of the responsibilities of a conquering state. Our policies should be enlightened enough to recognize the fact of the conquest, and to move to mitigate its human consequences. Inmigration and immigration, legal and illegal, is one of the inevitable results, and we have to just deal with it.
OT: petitioning is a professional operation anymore. The Cut’n Run Joe folk should be able to notice the current daily signature rate and project how many additional petitioners will have to be hired to get the 7500 plus 50% needed by Aug. 9th … they got the cash to hire as many petitioners as needed.
Blub @ 5:21 pm (#107) – I assume you’re responding to my comment. It’s best to say whose comment you’re responding to if you’re not quoting from it. The comment numbers aren’t the same for everybody.
Anyhow, I agree it doesn’t excuse what’s been done here. I just wanted to point out that it’s not a uniquely American phenomenon. Others have been a bit better at how they treated the indigenous folks (Canada, for instance), but we’re by no means the first to displace others so we could move in. One has only to examine the Israel/Palestine issue to realize that we’re not the last, either.
I can’t remember who said it, or even the exact quote, but somewhere along the way I encountered the observation that it’s the conceit of each society to think that they’re unique. The truth, I think, is that we’re all very much the same. I think recognizing that truth is the first step toward figuring out how to deal with it.
-ck- @ 4:59 pm (#95) – In retrospect, NAFTA and (especially) CAFTA seem like a bill of goods we were sold. I like the idea of free trade, but it has to be between equals in order to be truly free. Trade with a country that makes its factory workers do eighty hour weeks in unsafe and unsanitary conditions isn’t trade between equals, IMHO.
… and John Bolton cockily strolls off the UN Security Council floor, looking proud of himself for having stymied again stronger international action to cease hostilities …
*ilson46201 @ 5:34 pm (#111) – Now you know what becomes of the two-year old who watches his sibling build something out of blocks and then knocks it down, and looks very pleased with himself.
#112 Cuju359
“Now you know what becomes of the two-year old”
Why, of course I do. He becomes Vice President of the United States, and now he gets to torture people.
Mrs. Robinson – waaay upthread
despite being raised in a solid Democrat/Labor household in a Central Valley city with a significant Japanese American populace in our part of town – with plenty of teachers willing to discuss racism, Women’s Suffrage, the myth of the melting pot
and not a peep out of any of ‘em until a local gallery held a Dorothea Lange – Manzanar exhibit
half of them didn’t talk about anything related to WWII, the other half was clearly ashamed – an Uncle refused cooperation/access to Feds in their internment efforts near Tule Lake – but a hideous secret and one outraged 17 year old nonetheless
OT sorta. Yojimbo was the original. It was the creation of the director of the unparalleled Seven Samurai, the incredible Kurosawa. I haven’t seen Seven Samurai in decades, but it is, to me, one of the great works of art of the 20th century. Might have to find a DVD, I who never look at movies. . .
new thread: YOur daily Ned
Sorry, had to drop off to get some work done and am now deep in EPU zone…but I wanted to share with those folks who are parents of young children like myself a wonderful book, a Caldecott Award winner: Grandfather’s Journey.
It avoids politicization of immigration, but it makes very human the story of a Japanese immigrant’s arrival in the U.S. and his trips back and forth between old and new homes. It is a wonderful, bittersweet book that my family thoroughly enjoyed.
On the issue of illegal immigration: remember that we are NOT getting the entire story from the media. Try talking with immigrants, illegal and legal both and listen to their experiences. Try looking more deeply for the truth here; it is not as simple as building a bigger fence, and the problem is universal, not limited to the U.S. Other countries have looked to us as a model on the matter of immigration, being a nation of immigrants. What a shame if we cannot somehow be the moral leader they seek. Americans have a nasty tendency to succumb to the law of unintended consequences, acting hastily to fix a symptom but never actually seeking a cure. In the case of immigration, failing to deal with the inequities in neighboring countries assures us the problem will only get worse and the hasty fixes nastier.
And on the issue of internment: as a person of Asian heritage, with family members of Japanese descent, I must say that Michelle Maglalang Malkin’s disgusting excuse for writing on the issue make my blood run cold (for God’s sake, isn’t her spouse Jewish?). She could easily have persuaded this country to intern persons of Middle-Eastern extraction in this country, had not enough Americans the right kind of morals to denounce such a concept. Her work could yet be used to detain illegal immigrants; the groundwork has already been laid with the weasel clauses buried within the text of The Real ID Act, now law in this country (the AG can authorize the DHS director to do anything and everything to secure the borders of this country without judicial review). Without looking carefully at the damage that internment caused us as a country, we cannot preemptively protect whatever group may be labeled arbitrarily an enemy or national security threat. Frankly, we’re all Japanese now — and we have not fully exercised the power to stop those who might intern any of us in the future. The passage of The Real ID Act is proof of that.
Michelle is an anchor baby of Filipino parents — the US Army was a pioneer in using concentration camps against the Phillipine Insurgency the USA fought in the early 1900s. They rounded up peasants and relocated them into sealed villages to dry up guerilla support. 300,000 Filipinos died while bringing them freedom and civilization …
*ilson — all the more revolting, yes? Maglalang has dual citizenship, too; every time she opens her mouth I wonder who she is speaking for, herself as an American citizen, or her fallback country? I’ve read a lot about how her husband “indoctrinated” her thinking, have wondered how she could be so plastic and elastic, if this was an unconscious survival technique.
Makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
The right has a nasty way of picking up and using these folks, too. Condi comes to mind; even African-Americans don’t seem to understand her. It’s as if she’s forgotten altogether she has a heritage — not unlike Maglalang.
OK, I’ve gotta chime in on Yojimbo: Kurosawa always said he based it on Red Harvest.
Second, to Cujo:
The vast majority of those Japanese Americans — including the 442nd fellows — could not speak anything more than a rudimentary level of Japanese . They typically spoke it at home until about age 4-5, then lost most of it except for crude conversational Japanese; the parents set up Japanese language schools for the kids — which were then, of course, taken as an indicator of their “true loyalties” by whites — but the kids mostly hated going.
A number of the Japanese Americans who were fluent in Japanese did actually serve in the Pacific Theater, both as codebreakers and language specialists, but it was a difficult place for them since their fellow Americans were likely to mistakenly shoot them in combat. And of course they faced immense prejudice within ranks, much more so than the boys in Europe ever did.
I once interviewed one of these fellows, a man named Roy Matsumoto who is now in the Ranger Hall of Fame. Amazing stories he had to tell. Here’s one:
Roy and his platoon are on a Pacific island duking it out with Japanese forces, who likely outnumbered them. Late one night Roy crawls through the jungle to listen in on the enemy camp, and determines that they are preparing to attack his own camp at dawn. He crawls back through the jungle and warns his captain, and they begin preparing an ambush. They clear out of their own camp and set up the ambush in a draw just a little ways beyond their camp. Roy remains stationed near the old camp, and sure enough, the enemy comes rushing in at dawn only to find the Yanks have cleared out. The first rush of attackers looks baffled and wary, and appear ready to fall back. Roy realizes, of course, that this will scotch the ambush, so from his position in the bush, he yells out in Japanese, “Charge! Charge! Attack!” And so charge they did, into the waiting arms of his company’s welcome.
Anyway. Thought you’d enjoy that tidbit.
I have a question for Mr. Neiwert, if it is not too late. (I apologize for not having read his book, in case it is covered there.)
My knowledge of human history and human nature tells me that not all of the Nisei and Sansei on the West Coast went to the camps. I am sure that some hid, some tried to escape (to Hawaii or the East Coast, maybe, or Canada). I have never read anything about what happened to internee candidates who didn’t intern. How many citizens of Japanese ancestory spent the war in closets and attics ? What happened to them after the War ? Were they prosecuted for not obeying the law ? Do they still keep the secret ?
Did this subject ever come up in your researches ?
Marshall:
Actually, the Japanese were very, very compliant regarding the evacuation. And those who could relocate to the interior were free to do so. Hawaii was under martial law so that option was out. So the anecdotes of such hiding are few and far between, unlike the situation in Europe. Part of the problem, of course, was that they were all so readily identifiable.
The only case I’m aware of involving someone trying to remain was Fred Korematsu, who lived in Oakland. He had a Caucasian fiancee named Ida Boitano (the aunt of Brian Boitano, in fact) and he was determined not to go, so he had surgery to alter the appearance of his eyes. It didn’t work; he was caught about 10 days into the ruse and arrested. Thus began Korematsu v. United States. (Ida dumped Fred shortly after his arrest, BTW.)
“What would Brian Boitano do
If he was here right now,
He’d make a plan
And he’d follow through,
That’s what Brian Boitano’d do.
When Brian Boitano was in the olympics,
Skating for the gold,
He did two sow cows and a triple lutz,
While wearing a blind fold.
When Brian Boitano was in the alps,
Fighting grizzly bears,
He used his magical fire breath,
And saved the maidens fair.
So what would Brian Boitano do
If he were here today,
I’m sure he’d kick an ass or two,
That’s what Brian Boitano’d do.
I want this V-chip out of me,
It has stunted my vo-ca-bu-lar-y.
And I just want my mom
To stop fighting everyone
For Wendy I’ll be an activist, too,
Cos that’s what Brian Boitano would do.
And what would Brian Boitano do,
He’d call all the kids in town,
And tell them to unite for true
That’s what Brian Boitano would do.
When Brian Boitano travelled through time
To the year 3010,
He fought the evil robot kings
and saved the human race again
And when Brian Boitano built the pyramids,
He beat up Kubela Kong.
Cos Brian Boitano doesn’t take shit from an-e-y-body
So lets all get together,
And unite to stop our mom’s
And we’ll save Terrance and Phillip too,
Cos that’s what Brian Boitano do.
And we’ll save Terrance and Phillip too,
Cos that’s what Brian Boitano dooooo,
That’s what Brian Boitano do.”
I wonder if the owner/developer of Bellevue Square, Kemper Freeman, is descended from Miller Freeman, and if Miller made a few bucks from property vacated by the nisei/issei during this time? Bellevue Square is the biggest, fanciest of all the indoor malls in and around the Seattle area.
The important thing to remember is that the Japanese-American experience is a a structuring absence of modern American history in the same way that the massacre of the Paris Commune is essentially written out of late 19th Century French history.
Alan Parker’s Come and See the Paradise is a well-meaning, piss poor movie. But Bad Day at Black Rock looks directly into the face of racism.
Moe99: Yes. Miller Freeman was the father of modern Bellevue; and Bellevue Square (my own favorite mall) is a Freeman family production.
Interestingly, the Boitano family was among the original settlers of Half Moon Bay, CA (where I lived for 20 years before moving to Canada — we were proud of Brian like he was one of our own, which he was, sorta). The next town south of HMB is the tiny nursery and strawberry town of Pescadero, which was 75% Japanese before they were all cleared out and sent inland to the camps.
I have to wonder if Ida Boitano and Fred Korematsu were originally from the San Mateo coast. Certainly, Ida’s family farm was there….
Sorry to be so late to the discussion – I was away all weekend at the Fuji Rock Festival. David mentioned my review of Strawberry Days and my email interview with him on Orcinus the other day and I thought I’d provide a couple of links to them here since the newspaper’s online archives are somewhat inadequate
The review:Record of community destroyed
and the http://kevinswoodshed.blogspot…..sting.html
Having read through all the comments, I have to say I’m amazed at how off topic things got from the very start. Strawberry Days has nothing to do with illegal immigration. It has to with legal immigrants and their U.S. born children and grandchildren who were citizens being trundled off to camps because of the racist jingoism of people such as Miller Freeman. The notion that Malkin et al are now advocating that the United States repeat this outrage is appalling.
I would urge you to go and buy David’s book. It is a compelling read and exhaustively sourced.