Still here.

Cats that look like Hitler - love it!

Dodd!

He completely let the middle crisis fly out of control. Where was he when the soldiers got kidnapped in the first place, on fucking Jupiter?? I’ll give him a pass on the first one but after the 2nd kidnappings by Hezbollah shouldn’t a red flag have gone up??
But I guess we see the Bush administration’s strategy now, give Israel an excuse to bomb the crap out Hezbollah to root out terrorism in south Lebanon and humiliate Iran’s support of Hezbollah. Oh, fucking idiots. Obviously they had the same pathetic intelligence that sucked us into Iraq that they used with this hair brained scheme. Now the dumbfucks are back pedaling so that Israel will find a way to say face, and not give the “terrorists” a physcological victory.
oh the humanity……………

rootz !

Gawd, my elvish blood boils at hearing all the Dems genuflecting before the assault of the current authoritarian, right-wing, expansionist, militaristic Israeli government. It’s THIS HORRIBLE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT

The cats that look like Hitler is the funniest thing I have seen in a long, long time.

I needed that laugh so much I can’t say thanks enough!

Too bad the senate vote won’t be until after the CT primary. I wander how Lieberman would have voted it it was?

No, no, no, oh my God, Dodd: NO!

“They are ineffective.”

“They are incompetent.”

“They’ve bungled the task.”

These statements just play into the new neocon agenda of tossing W under the bus.

I say this:
Ineffective bullying isn’t wrong, bullying is wrong.

Please, can’t we debate the PNAC premise, a wider Middle East war, instead of validating that premise by debating their effectiveness?

========
Had Enough?
========

oops…hearing = witnessing. ..and the final sentence should have: GET IT? Too angry today. Way too angry.

Trex, about your sweet old Siamese with the arthritis — we have two aging cats and a drafty old house. Kitties like to be warm, and elderly kitties need to be warm, and come winter, it’s mighty expensive to heat this drafty old house all day while we’re at work & all night while we’re asleep to keep the kitties comfy — so what to do? Heated kitty beds. They *love* their heated kitty beds.

See www.plowhearth.com, search for “kitty bowl.” Not an employee, just a satisfied customer.

Fitz!
—–
and Shakira: her name means “woman full of grace” in Arabic.

Isn’t Shakira half-lebanese? Perhaps only Shakira’s hips will stop the shelling.

Teddy at 9 — I took this “ineffective” to mean that he sucks at his job, at least in the full context of Dodd’s remarks. *g* And, frankly, who wants a UN Ambassador that sucks at his job when the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket at the moment? We all deserve better.

Dodd is so obedient. He memorizes his framing so well. He will be permitted to retain his life peerage.

Point of order!

Soldiers are captured, civilians are kidnapped. Stop saying soldiers were kidnapped. Even if they were in Israel proper (which is under some dispute), they were still captured.

thinkprogress.org - Will Joe Lieberman Oppose John Bolton?

-sorry if this was posted before

lieberman will vote with us against bolton, and for cloture to satisfy his true party of repukelicans

Emergency appt immediately for Zbigniew Brzezinski to be President and Prof. Cole as VP and haul everyone else to jail– most of the congress can go to Crawford and have a weenie roast with the CM and the pundits so they will shut up and we don’t have to look at their mugs. Good career civil servants can stay and Bunnatine comes back with a promotion and a bouquet of flowies.

there, I feel better.

puppethead -
Fine -’captured and held as hostage’

O/T (though Christy, I’m with you, don’t care how it comes to pass that Bolton gets the boot, just boot his sorry ass)

just saw something hideously disgusting on FOX -

(btw - when all other channels are showing graphic, heartbreaking death & destruction, I turn to FOX merely to see if the big lipped blondes have put on their cheerleading outfits )

some ME reporter has miraculously got his hands on an e mail from of the Canadian UN guys killed by the Israelis - written a week before his death - ‘explaining’ to all that the unit wasn’t going out on patrols at the moment b/c of constant shelling BUT all the rockets were “a Tactical Necessity” IOW - FAUX news just used some poor peacekeeper’s e mail as a means of justifiying his own unneccesary, brutal death - friggin’ pornographic

angie -
Good angle there reverse the Curse! thinking.
We’d have to invite Bunnatine here, say the first Sat post election Nov. 11.

so you mean poor John McCain was kidnapped in VietNam and that he was just a detainee, not a prisoner-of-war? No torture but a lot of “feared up” ? Glad that’s cleared up at last …

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 1st Session Roll Call Vote 142
June 20, 2005

On the Cloture Motion (Upon Reconsideration, Motion to Invoke Cloture on the Nomination of John R. Bolton, of Maryland, to be Representative of the United States to the United Nations )

Yeas 54 Nays 38 Not Voting 8. Lieberman voted no with most other Democrats on the cloture motion which then failed needing 60 votes to pass.

So at least last time Lieberman voted against Bolton.

One might think Bolton was quite effective if the goal was to royally screw up everything at the UN, but that would be cynical.

We have fed the heart on fantasies
The heart’s grown brutal from the fare
More substance in our enmities
Than in our love, oh honey bees,
Come build in the empty house of the stare.
…W.B. Yeats

Hugh:
Thanks for that. Was thinking about finding same info…too lazy/crazy etc. just now.

Stupid ? > Is Lieberman on this Committee. I should know, but…

Teddy @ EPU’d from prior thread

Spot-on, meta 168! Senator Boxer’s views — except for her recently expressed support of RGJoe — are directly aligned with 60% or more of the American people, shown in poll after poll after poll. So what benefits her to move to the right?

It’s not about right versus left. A lot of the Boxer concern trolls you see on the blogs…mostly other blogs, our lovely mods here smack them with the nerf bat toot sweet hehe…keep throwing out that old “but she’s Proggressive! She’s pro-choice!” I don’t think it’s a left-right thing at all. She’s not trying to appeal to more right wing people…in CA it would be pointless, Repubs are never gonna support her, and she doesn’t need their support anyway.

It’s a incumbency versus competitive elections thing, imho. Kind of like how the ACLU will stand up for the Phelps clan just on principle. She’s gonna support fellow incumbocrats, because it makes it easier to keep her own seat. She can ignore her own constituents, since her seat is secure, and can get whatever donations she needs from AIPAC or whatever corporations she chooses to shill for. Bush and Cheney want a monarch instead of a president. Incumbocrats want a House of Lords instead of a Senate.

We abolished a hereditary nobility for a reason Babs. We’re not letting you resurrect it.

It’s not enough to be a member of the Democratic Party. It’s not enough to be Progressive. Our elected officials need to also support our democracy, and not interfere in its natural processes.

Otherwise we lose our republic, and become another two bit banana republic.

EPU’ed, but applicable to Bolton as well:

Does anyone else get the impression that in addition to their innumerable other failings, the neocons never even think about what anyone else might do (the people they talk about fighting, for example.) It’s like they think they’re brilliant chess players because they sit in their bedrooms”think” tanks and decide both sides’ moves, never noticing that they’re just playing the obvious moves for their opponent.

I read an article recently (I thought on The Next Hurrah, but I can’t find it now) about how if the neocons succeed in getting their war with Iran (either directly or by proxy), the Iranians can and will disrupt our supply lines from Kuwait, and our situation in Iraq will bear a close resemblance to Napoleon’s in Moscow.

Since I actually do care about our troops, and not just as political props, this really frightens me and pisses me off.

OfT: I sure hope Matt O. gets his hands on the new Homeland Security report on its own contracting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01683.html

One “benefit” to creating new agencies to supercede old ones — like RGJoe wants to do (again) to Homeland Security — is that the robbery by BushCo, Inc., directly from the USTreasury has no parents:

Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said the report faulted contracts made by the Transportation Security Administration before it became part of the Homeland Security Department. “It’s hard to imagine that the report can criticize the department for a contract made before the department was created,” he said.

So, since RGJoe wants to re-create Homeland Security in its own new image, the intervening, interim Ridge-headed Department will have no culpability for its own contracting? The $ will be gone, but there will be no extant agency or employees from whom to seek recompense?

Where is Harry Truman in his Chevrolet, going USArmy base to USArmy base during WWII, now that we really need him?

========
Had Enough?
========

Well this would have been EPU’ed on the last thread:

Progress for the New American Century’s statement of principles:

June 3, 1997

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for [the wars of] the future;

we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values [who don’t agree with us];

we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad [elections, free markets; democracy, social justice not so much];

we need to accept responsibility for America’s unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly [obedient] to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity [plus the steely eye of the fanatic] may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz

http://www.newamericancentury......ciples.htm

Note in particular Cheney, Rumsfeld, Scooter Libby, Zalmay Khalilzad, and Wolfowitz.

Energy companies posting huge profits. Fabulous.

TeddySanFran at 9: I gotta agree with Christy here, ineffective isn’t the same as incompetent. Incompetent means he doesn’t know what he’s doing (which I agree excuses deliberately bad behavior), ineffective means he knows what he’s doing, but is unwilling to accept that it doesn’t work, and change it.

As for “bully,” I agree, but when so much of the public is unwilling to see the difference between bullying and “being tough” (which can actually be a good thing diplomatically), I think it’s an effective turn of phrase. Even if you say “My objection isn’t that he’s been a bully,” the memorable part is calling him an ineffective bully, so the final (correct) impression is that he’s mean, and he’s not doing us any good.

Isn’t the real question we should be asking “Why do Republicans have so much hate and contempt for Veterans?”

Please, can’t we debate the PNAC premise, a wider Middle East war, instead of validating that premise by debating their effectiveness?

No, we can’t, Teddy. And that’s the problem.

The past two weeks have revealed in all its horror the fact that it is not politically permissible to advocate non-violence anywhere in the ME. Think of all the pols falling all over themselves to support the war hysteria while immediately silencing anyone who dares to say “killing is wrong, not matter who does it.” Look what happened to Tasini — Hillary skewered him for suggesting that when Israel takes actions that appear to recklessly disregard the safety/lives of Lebanese civilians it is morally unacceptable, and he his immediately vilified on all sides.

This is how we get near unanamious resolutions out of Congress in which the notion of an immediate end to the killing is not even mentioned.

Even Kofi Annnan has had to tone down his conclusion that the Israelis deliberately targeted the UN outposts, even though today’s NYT contains half a page of evidence that suggests it at least recklessly conducting shellings despite repeated UN calls to stop because they were hitting the UN buildings and vehicles for hours before they leveled the building killing four people. All the evidence suggests the Israeli’s acted in reckless disregard of the safety of UN peacekeepers — that’s enough for a conviction, folks — but because Annan needs US support for any eventually ceasefire — he’d like a ceasefire uh, two weeks ago — he has to avoid offending an “ineffective bully.”

This is madness, folks. National insanity.

We all know that the best outcome for our preferred candidates is that they not be asked these tough questions because we’re afraid of what they’d say. If they were honest, their careers would be over. But the reason we call them “preferred” is because we’d like to believe, but don’t really know, that if asked, they’d say, “stop the killing first; then negotiate.” But not a single prominent leader of either US party has had the courage to say that. NOT ONE.

The problem we face is enormous. It is not politically safe to be sane. So it’s not just changing the MSM to get fair and honest reporting of the liberal/conservative stuff, to stop shilling for the cowardly warhawks, to quit spouting eliminationist rhetoric. No, we have to create conditions right here in the good ole USA in which is is political safe for someone to advocate sane foreign policies that might actually lead to peace.

As Soros describes in his book, we have to treat the US as though it was an authoritarian thug regime, and start from scratch.

Ooops, that should be project not progress.

‘Bolton and Joey, sitting in a tree…’

;>)

I saw a smidge of Nelson(Fl) and Obama. The roof started dripping when Nelson made his bigboy “I want you to be a meanie to Russia and China” spiel (you have to visualize Batman underoos in there somewhere) and then the dripping actually made poor Obama have to get up. On top of that, Bolton got really snide with him. “My name is Bolton T*O*N not T*E*N and I don’t work in OMB…”

Lovely. God Opens the sewer line on them all. It’s a pity no one believes in Omens and Portents anymore.

Ok - maybe it was just a roof leak.

Bolton, Joe, and Scalito (has a ring to it)

darkblack

my eyes! my eyes! It burns! Guess we know how Bolton keeps that mustache clean.

That’s just twisted.

OT - if you are in need of a giggle… over at Pam’s House Blend, there is an excellent example of how to deal with the Phred Phelps gang…

You Tube Video Interview

nice video!

ANOTHER great post, CHS, und mit Kitlers to boot! Seeing that one of ‘em’s named Mao reminded me of two old dears I knew years ago. Mousy Tongue and Golda Meow.

FWIW, I e-mailed a barely-respectful SLAP upside the head this a.m. to Voinovich.

Sen. V. wrote a lengthy op-ed a few days ago, trying to justify his current support of Bolton nomination.

Guess it’s just too much strain on his tender psyche for him to consider standing up to the admin. twice in one year. Twit!

Adie - I swear, they must have photos on all these guys… Voino, Specter… (or threatening their children or something)

there is no other possible explanation of their flips

OT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....15_pf.html
“Bush advisers who have been buffeted in the past year by a catastrophic hurricane, rising gasoline prices, a failed Social Security initiative, Republican revolts, criminal investigations and a relentless overseas war said they have grown accustomed to constant crisis. “This is a new normal for our administration in the last couple years,” said one senior official. “You begin to expect the unexpected.”"
***
Guess what, guys? The people of this country are NOT fond of constant crisis, careening from one disaster to another. It’s like a car with no steering and no brakes. It means we have a failed leader and terrible representation in Congress. It’s not just the natural order of things, not when this president decided, DECIDED, to inflame the Middle East.
/rant over

To post something on topic, I think we all agree that Bolton is probably the worst possible person for the job.

But he does have a point about the effectiveness of the UN. (most of his disapproval of the UN is based on the fact that the UN doesn’t kowtow to the US enough, which is ridiculous, it shouldn’t have to.) Once the BushCo people are out of the Whitehouse, I think a serious reform of it should be undertaken. Specifically, to move it toward more of a “world government” model, as opposed to just a place where nations go to bloviate and occasionally defuse crises.

I think our unfortunate precedent-setting entrance into the “preemptive war of choice” arena make such reform necessary. Before long half the nations on the planet will be doing the same thing. Giving the UN some offical “teeth” would seem to be a good course of action.

Certainly we need to get rid of the security council veto ability.

Well, I’ve got Chuckles and Dame Hillary representing me. Then again…not so much.

Well, Lieberliar may have voted no on Bolton then, but the prevailing sentiment seems to be that:

“everything changed after Hizbollah captured 2 soldiers.”

>>>>>>>>

can’t change horses in midstream doncha know?

we are in crisis, we need the same evildoer in power so we can sink further into the morass, no ceasefire, no negotiating, no nothing.

psst, here, over here, look at my big military-industrial complex– ain’t it pretty and special? It costs a lot to feed it, in blood and treasure, but it’s bigger than anyone else’s. BOO!

Oh, God, please, no. Bolton made that horrendous criminal statement and now my ears are bleeding.

Who and when was the last official envoy to the Middle East? Time to go googling.

lhp, prior thread, you asked Mary about the link to the LATimes article on US Attorney cutbacks that P J Evans had linked to. I left it at the bottom of previous thread.

Senate Foreign Affairs Committee

Republicans
Lugar, Richard (IN) , Chairman
Hagel, Chuck (NE)
Chafee, Lincoln (RI)
Allen, George (VA)
Coleman, Norm (MN)
Alexander, Lamar (TN)
Sununu, John (NH)
Murkowski, Lisa (AK)
Martinez, Mel (FL)
Voinovich, George (OH)

Democrats
Biden, Joseph (DE), Ranking Member
Sarbanes, Paul (MD)
Dodd, Christopher (CT)
Kerry, John (MA)
Feingold, Russ (WI)
Boxer, Barbara (CA)
Nelson, Bill (FL)
Obama, Barack (IL)

Lieberman is not on this committee.

Wondering.

I notice on prev. post that some commenters numerical ref. to earlier comments on the same thread don’t seem to match up. Is this to with moderation and deletions or something?

OldCoastie.

I’m so ANGRY at these morons!?! NOTHING could be worth selling their souls this way!

BTW, Vitch has always been a wobbly-kneed pol., always w/ kinda strange circle of ‘influential friends’ around him, always just a bit too smarmy-acting when he was out winning votes by playing the MrClean act.

An utter waste. Get more good work done if they had one-a those kitlers warming his chair in the Senate.

PfffsSHT!

CNN just announcing that Rummy is mulling whether to send a battalion to Baghdad that’s just finishing up a year-long tour of duty in Mosul and was supposed to be headed home. “They’re professional soldiers and they’ll get along with life…”

Promises broken again?

Soulless bastard pretty much describes the whole BushCo bunch.

Kurt - Right. On.

Ok Kiddo, whenever a comment triggers the troll software, it goes into moderation and has to be manually approved by a moderator. It normally takes at least a few minutes to find and release it. In the interval other comments have posted. When the moderated comment gets released it bumps all those that came after it down one. That’s why a lot of us identify comments by time stamp which does not change. HTH

Kurt at 45: As I understand it, there is broad consensus for reform at the UN, and it was well underway when Bolton was appointed and trashed much of it because they wouldn’t switch from the plans they’d spent months on to doing exactly what he wanted right now! I don’t have a link handy, but there was one proposal that the US officially supported (after Bolton was appointed) literally until a day or two before it was to be adopted, and then he suddenly declared that we didn’t support it any more, and expected the committee to vote in an acceptable replacement.

So despite the fact that UN reform is his big issue, and despite the fact that they were actually adopting a lot of things that the US and even Bolton wanted, he still manages to be a detriment to his own stated goals.

Thanks Prairie Sunshine.
What happened to all those Iraqi units that we trained? Why can’t they go into Baghdad?

OK kiddo

Presume you’re correct. A bunch of posters use [time of posting] instead of number. Makes sense, & I keep trying to remember to train myself to do likewise.

So far, too hard for me to chew nails & remember the posting clock at the same time, sigh…

meta at 11:49 — I think that would be Dennis Ross, but I’m not entirely certain there wasn’t anyone after him.

Boxer after ranting on and on about Al-Maliki and acting all outraged about him not condemning Hizb., etc.(see pow wow’s excellent reportage on the previous thread) said to Bolton, I know this is not your fault(wha?) and then proceeded to Darfur and said, I know you care about what is going on there.

Betcha she bounces to a yea. Just sayin.

FWIW, I’m with TeddySanFran on this. Dodd’s comment was neither clever nor did it make a lick of sense. Bolton has in fact been a complete successful obstructionist bully, which is why he was hired. And if he had succeeded not merely in obstructing but in bullying countries into concordance with the Bush administration’s positions, which is what I take to mean by Dodd’s assertion that he was ineffective, the world would be all the more worse off.

And when will we see the website for cats that look like Bolton?

Thomas Ricks on Charlie Rose repeat now talking about his book, Fiasco. No shit.

puppethead points to a broader problem of how language is used to promote war and justify killing.

Watch any channel, network, cable, whatever, and you’ll see the following tends to be true:

Israelis/US military people are called “soldiers.”

Those they fight against are called “insurgents,” “militants,” “terrorists,” etc.

US/Israeli operations, including those that level buildings with bombs/artillery, even when they kill civilians, are called “operations.”

The other side’s operations are called “terrorist attacks,” suicide bombings, and so on.

The persistent use of such language is what convinces people, over time, to accept killing on one side, but to condemn it on the other, and to regard civilian killings on one side as “terrorism” and civilian killings on the other side as “unfortunate but unavoidable collateral damage.

If we want the world to be different, we have to demand honest use of the language, every day.

Redshift, I’m getting the same, Dennis Ross. I don’t believe W appointed anyone to fill this role. Big vacuum. Duh.

Looking more closely at the June 25, 2005 cloture vote on Bolton, 2 Democrats voted for cloture (for Bolton): Nelson (D-NE), Pryor (D-AR).

The only Republican to vote against cloture (against Bolton) was Voinovich (R-OH).

These Senators did not vote: Burns (R-MT), Coleman (R-MN), Feingold (D-WI), Johnson (D-SD), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Levin (D-MI), Thune (R-SD).

In this context, a non vote was the same as a vote against cloture (and against Bolton) since it did not contribute to the 60 votes needed to invoke cloture and move the nomination to a final vote. Interestingly, the noble Lincoln Chafee did vote for cloture (for Bolton).

Hugh -
Thanks, AGAIN.
—-
““This is a new normal for our administration in the last couple years,” said one senior official. “You begin to expect the unexpected.””"

This quote is EXACTLY what I meant when I said, NOTHING is NOT on the table. NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisiton!” thinking on a whole spectrum of ‘who could have imagined’ scenarious. EVERYTHING is ‘on the table’ and is possibe. EVen Spanish Inquistion scenarios.

If Dodd meant what Christy took him to mean, then his sentence structure and framing was particularly convoluted. If Dodd meant Bolton was ineffective and a bully he should have said that.

To my eyes, “ineffective” modifies “bully” in Dodd’s sentence. Especially since he used the word “bully” alone in the preceding predicate phrase.

scarecrow at 12:03 pm
BULLSEYE

OT Is Ned going to use that electricity thing you gave him in the primary, save it for the general, or do you know?

JohnC 11:50 - thank you. That would have taken me forever to find, once I saw the post.

You are very welcome.

scarecrow; good point and for a reliable offender: Linda Gradstein of NPR; One side “reports” or “says” or “tells us” to indicate that it’s a fact and the other side “claims” or “alleges” to show that the information is suspect. grrr

The Reaganites test-drove the language manipulator when the contras became freedom fighters, and it worked. They still use our language against our better instincts.

Ah Orwell.

John Casper — Probably not, and the moment is gone. I think those of us who kicked it around concluded that the story was too long and too complicated, and could only be turned to advantage through very carefull explanation far beyond the patience/capabilities of ordinary local news shows. However, according to our hostess, they’ve got it just in case it comes up again, so at least they’ll know about the history. Thanks for asking.

Update–CNN reporter saying brigade, not battalion, may go from year-long tour in Mosul into Baghdad.

John Casper…11:56am

Adie…11:59am… Thanks guys :)

3700 soldiers will likely go from Baghdad after a year’s tour of duty in Mosul if Rummy signs off, according to CNN reporter.

RE: Bolton’s Vietnam-era military service. Funny about that. I graduated in 1970 and knew the war was lost. How come I ended up in combat? Back then Guardsmen were known as “FNG’s” for good reason.

i know i’m a newbie and not to well liked for my different ME views, however……………..

scarecrow- is there really another way of describing a suicide bombing other than a terroristic attack
furthermore what should we have called 9/11
and a soldier is a representative of a governmental condoned military branch. even if you don’t agree with the governments decision there is no other way to desribe him/her
please this is not an attack just a person trying to understand anothers views

Chavez looks deep into Putin’s eyes and sees:

Aircraft and helicopters.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/.....index.html

After Bush booted Putin on the WTO issue, he was expecting … what, exactly?

Dru– yes, good examples. Notice how subtle it is, so that after time, we don’t even know how we came to perceive the credibility of different people differently. Jane/Christy have written about this many times in the broader context of political dialogue.

OT update:

First step completed: Called phone company this morning, got a young woman in Kansas, which is nowhere near where I live. i explained the sitch she said call the police. There are things they can do to trap “Anonymous” calls (caller id blocking) but not if a valid number shows up. She said sometimes wrong cell phone numbers can appear in the caller ID window but not land lines, which this number is. I asked if she knew of companies that would allow you to mask your real phone # on caller id, she said no. I asked to be transfered to phone tech support. After a longish pause, she said Well, you’d just get me, there are only three of us in the office. I hate being older. It just highlights how much most young people don’t know.

Next stop: Monrovia PD. Film at 11. Tch, like I have time for this shit!

Thanks again, guys, for all the support.

If you haven’t been back the Scorecards thread, you’ll have missed this. I can’t have that.

ROAR, Sandlin and LJ/Aquaria!

ralphbon at 12:00 pm: But he wasn’t sold as being an obstructionist, nor are they selling him that way now. What’s important here is not what makes him popular with the wingnuts, but what makes him acceptable to senators. If Dodd can make the debate about what he’s really doing, rather than a phony “pro-reform” persona, then they either have to admit it’s true and defend it, or try to argue that he’s not.

I’m not saying he’ll succeed, but putting forth the idea that he’s preventing us from getting any cooperation at the UN seems like an effective way to counter the push for “we’re in a crisis! We can’t change personnel now!” If Bush himeself, on his open mike, is saying we need an effort from the UN, then an effective argument can be made that having someone at the UN who’s obstructionist is worse “in a crisis” than changing to someone else.

very aside:
—-
folks who may like mandolin and bluegrass stuff like David Grisman’s ‘Dawg’ style…Boston area FDLers can find live Grisman show at Passim’s in Bostont tonight. Could be a way to rechage.
—
Music soothes many things, imho.

Redshift @11:58

I believe that UN reform that was in the works was mostly about expanding the number of nations on the Security Council (plus a bunch of things that while important, aren’t really relevant to this current discussion).

I think they need to move toward eliminating one country, such as China or the US, being able to bring a resolution completely to a halt with the Veto. In other words, it becomes more like a World Legislature. Obviously there would be sovereignty issues that would drive neocons into a froth hehe…but with the increasingly dangerous security situation, and with the increasing pace of globalization, I think it may be necessary.

God Bless Net-Neutral Google!
The cat who looks like John Bolton.

(aka Puss-in-Jackboots).

OT - CNN - harry reid is a victim of identity theft
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITI.....ity.theft/

Kitlers
That’s hilarious.

You gotta make Kitler shorthand for Bolton…

mommybrain, thanks for continuing to pursue the situation in the face of idiocy in corporate (NOT customer) service. Please keep us updated on your successes in establishing to your satisfaction that all is under your control.

Geez, Mommybrain - I’m surprised by the phone company’s lack of knowledge! Good luck at the PD….

Seems to me with my mom’s case, we were able to put all kinds of call blocks on the line (including anyone who did not identify by caler id)… routed them through a system (if the call were legit) and it intimidated the heck out of the guy who was trying to do the intimidating…. we were able to set up all kinds of “permissions” for which calls could go thru and which ones were blocked… but this is SoCal - perhaps there are just more crazies out here…

(but we knew he was a chickensh*t as*hole when we started and our guesses at his reaction was correct)

lo — the point is not to sanction those attacks; they were evil and dreadful. The point is to recognize that what happens from all sides is sometimes difficult to distinguish from a moral standpoint.

When the US deliberately bombed the Pakistani village last winter, hoping to kill al Qaeda leaders, but instead killed over a dozen civilians, how should we view that? Was it:

An “operation with unfortunate collateral damage?”
Or an act of state terrorism?

I would like someone to describe how these distinctions have any meaning when explaining what happens to the families.

And I’ll leave you with one other thought. Suppose you knew that if you bombed a certain building, you would surely kill an al Qaeda official. But you also knew that an innocent child was in the same building and would certaintly be killed by that bomb. What would you do?

Does it matter if the child is yours or mine, or Afghani? And if so, why?

scarecrow at 12:03

don’t suppose u remember a fella named Gingrich, and his handy lists.

SURE! It caught on, rover draws em up & spreads em; karen hughes ring a bell? rummy adds his pseudo-quaint nonsensical babblings, & those are picked up too. When was the last time you heard a half hr. straight of rhetorical questions posed AND answered by the poser - uh - BEFORE rummy grabbed the center mike?

They all feed their spokespeople.
They all feed the MSM bobbleheads.
They all feed jr., & some of the time he actually reads the stuff correctly. Even if he messes up, those dang, loaded words are so familiar to us that even WE find OURSELVES unconsciously correcting him.

‘1984′-speak has been here for awhile now.
Good luck educating the MSM/neocon-repeater-signal.

BTW, I’m not willing to give up trying either. Thanks for your own efforts, & those of all the firedawgs out there.

Won’t be easy, but we CAN make a difference.

*ilson46201-I’ll check back later for your response. Thanks
Larry

Warp Machine # 1
Bolton is just one of the many hydraheads of the same Nazi beast… but being at the UN he is in the right location to begin a redress of a problem that has plagued the planet since early man was able to wield a club. An ageless problem that has only in the past several generations threaten the survival of all life.

You know that the job created immediately post that 2001: A Space Oddity moment at the obelisk was the second oldest profession: weapons maker.

The common thread among the links above is the word “War”. So, examining Cui Bono? from war, in the context of the emerging American industrial colossus of the past 100 years (…looking for those who have profited unscathed and flourished accordingly) brings us to this group. [mod. pdf file warning]

I appreciate CHS post’s as I check in often during the day to find intelligent well thought out opinions and updates on current news and happenings, and kitlers to keep perspective on our lives. It is somehow comforting that there is others who view this world askew similarly as I do and can lay it out as understandably as CHS does while still keeping a level head about it all.

Adie — the name rings a bell. I think I agree with your point, except I might change “they” to “we” in some cases. We all fall into the trap. Pogo was right.

“i know i’m a newbie and not to well liked for my different ME views, however”
lo, as far as I am concerned, you are always welcome to post here, because you are sincere, and you are civil.
A suicide bomber sacrifices their own life when they kill others. The IRA never did that and the world came to know that the history of British occupation in Northern Ireland was not a beacon of light.

When people commit suicide, it’s a sign of extreme hopelessness. That doesn’t mean all suicide bombers are not always victims or sacrificing themselves for something worthwhile, but it’s worth noting.

When lots of people do it, it’s a sign that the hopelessness is widespread within a society.
These people have nothing to lose and that is what makes them so dangerous. I think what a lot of us fear is that it is the economic exploitation of a 2nd, 3rd world cultures by 1st world cultures that is underpinning this.

I’m working off the theory that everyone has responsibility and everyone is going to have to make some sacrifices. We need to hold everyone accountable.

“furthermore what should we have called 9/11″
This was done by a very small group of Sunni’s.
Now, Bush and Israel are driving Sunni’s, Shiia, Arab and Persian to unite against Israel and the US. That’s in no one’s interest.

Hezbollah are Shiia. The Shiia work the oil fields in Saudi Arabia for a Sunni monarchy. If the Shiia decide to cut Saudi oil production, as a show of support for Hezbollah, our gas prices could go to $10/gallon. Support for Israel will dry up in a heartbeat if this happens.
The U.S. and Israeli are operating from a position of weakness and the whole world knows it. We need that ME oil. The sooner the US and the Israel take it down a few notches, start working with people, the better it will be for everyone.
Israel will take more hits, so will the US, but this is a battle for hearts, minds, and pocketbooks imo. The pacificsts won’t win this, but neither will the chickenhawks. It’s going to take years of forgiveness, diplomacy, accountability, sacrifice, from everyone.and a whole lotta luck. No one will get what they deserve.

Dear Larry — when your level of political discourse is limited calling a human female a bitch and Lieberman is a prick, it’s kinda feeble.

Calling Condi a b**ch was specifically called out as bad form earlier in the comments but you then made the same assertion. That’s not cool, especially here…

Warp Machine # 2
Prominent names are Rockefeller, Harriman, Walker and Bush. That would be George Herbert Walker and his son-in-law Prescott Bush.
Prescott, as has been linked many times, kept the Nazis in brown shirts and helped build up their war machine as well as profiting from sales of arms to America in preparation of its defence from fascism.
Added bonus for Prescott. At the end of World War II he avoided Nuremberg prosecution himself (for which he more than qualified) and proceeded to fold all the toxic R and D fruits of the Nazi death machine into establishing the fledgling CIA and the American military industrial complex via Project Paperclip. [As linked before!]

killing innocent people is wrong no matter who they are. But by definition i think terrorism is aimed at instilling fear that innocent anybodies at anytime are at risk in the hopes of having demands met.

bombing a building full of all queda or hezbolla that also has innocent civilians can be seen as an operation with unfortunate civilian casualties esp when leaflets forewarned civilians to leave.
Now does the classification of the death of anyone as a civilian casualty diminsh the loss of life, surely not but there is a distinction.
i hope this makes sense

BTW if anyone is interested, Lieberman is on the following committees:

Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, Armed Services
Environment/Public Works
Small Business Committees

scarecrow at 12:21

IMO, you HAVE spotlighted a big problem.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Impossible to deal with such things in public, without touching raw nerves all around, but people must be made aware of how language is used and abused in a political sense.

I do think most FDLers are aware, so there’s an element of preaching to the choir here.

Don’t neglect other venues. Your message is important.

Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an ultra-conservative Jew — does that make all Israelis terrorists? Shamir blew up the biggest hotel in Jerusalem — does that make all Jews terrorists? Arial Sharon enabled the Massacre of Shabra and Shattila — are all Israeli leaders war criminals?

Dont tar with a broad brush the actions of a minority within a large group…

There’s very little that enhances the diminishment of loss of life for the dead persons themselves, methinks.

Bolton fits right in with his fellow ‘Nam dodgers, Bush and Cheney. I recall all too vividly the Greyhound bus convoy at 4 o’clock in the morning, that hot dry August of 1965, taking us from Sacramento to Oakland to have our medicals for the draft. It was eerie. So quiet. I was seventeen. Many of those guys on the buses, some were my school buddies, didn’t make it back from the Vietnam war. Perhaps if these three hypocrites had been on one of those buses things would be different today. Hard to say.

“lo, as far as I am concerned, you are always welcome to post here, because you are sincere, and you are civil.”
Not only are you welcome, you imo strengthen the quality of discourse at FDL, we pride ouselves on being a reality based community. We have a lot of people who are trying to look out for the needs of the nations surrounding Israel. You are the only one looking out for Israel, who actually comments.
This is a process and I hope you will stay with us, but I’m being selfish.
There is a long history of violence against Israel, just since 1948, by helping us remember that too, you improve the quality of our discussion of these very important issues.
I am outta here, pick you up on another thread.

scarecrow #65,

Thanks, you expressed well the point I was trying to make. It’s an aspect of warfare that each side tries to demonize and dehumanize the other. See, for example, the anti-Japanese WWII posters. How easy it is to mentally switch in Arab caricatures for the Japanese ones depicted.

The GOP spend lots of money and time figuring out how to frame issues to get the desired emotional response from people. Democrats, as Lakoff has pointed out, seem to ignore this powerful tool. We need to understand the language we use and how it affects the debates.

OT - Lamont/LIEbertwit related

Text of reply from Mark Pryor (D[ino]) - AR regarding CT primary election:

Dear Dr. Bong:

Thank you for contacting me regarding the Connecticut Democratic Primary. I appreciate the opportunity to hear from you.

Senator Lieberman is the Ranking Democratic Member on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affiars Committee, on which I sit. I have worked closely with Senator Lieberman in this capacity, and I know how committed he is to representing the citizens of Connecticut and the country. [barf!] He has the intellect, motivation and experience to enhance the Senate debate on many important issues such as the war in Iraq, the recovery effort along the Gulf Coast,[sic] and lobbying reform. I believe that it is in the best interest of this nation to keep Senator Lieberman in the Senate. However, Connecticut voters will decide the outcome of the primary and general elections, and I will respect their decision and welcome a new member to the Senate if my collegue is not re-elected.

-snip-

[emphasis mine].

Of course, no mention of specific mention of whether he will support Lamont and his party if Lamont wins the primary.

Hugh — for the record, I know Lieberman isn’t on the Foreign Relations Committee. But a number of Senators similarly situated have already voiced opposition to Bolton, and thus I ask the question…because, frankly, Lieberman’s history of “have his cake and eat it, too” voting patterns makes me ask it.

Warp Machine # 3
The virus has continued to spread to this day. Is it any surprise that World War III is being discussed? The same virulent forces are still at work.
Until this family and all the unresolved criminality relating to the sanitization of post WWII (neo) Nazi activity has been dealt with at the UN, the threat will continue. The arms dealers/profiteers need to be stopped.

The truly amazing thing is how the Israelis via the Neocons have aligned themselves with these guys…they should be considering the possibiltythat given this group’s deep and dark anti-Semitic roots, that maybe they are diligently working to facilitate Armageddon, conveniently located for the purposes of maximum destruction of the State of Israel here

For every self-fulfilling reality, there is a facilitator (with apologies to Umberto Eco)

lo says at 12:12 pm:

i know i’m a newbie and not to well liked for my different ME views, however…

lo, relax. You got a rough start, but the problem was your tone, not your views. The tone of this one is fine, and while you may get disagreement, I think you’ll find it won’t get people’s hackles up.

scarecrow- is there really another way of describing a suicide bombing other than a terroristic attack

While they are frequently used in terrorist attacks, they are not identical. A reasonable definition of a terrorist attack is one intended to terrorize civilians. So a suicide bomb used against an enemy military convoy wouldn’t be a terrorist attack, for example, nor would the kamikaze suicide attacks in WWII.

and a soldier is a representative of a governmental condoned military branch. even if you don’t agree with the governments decision there is no other way to desribe him/her

I don’t have a big problem with calling irregular soldiers guerillas or insurgents, though in a world where insurgencies sometimes do take over governments, it’s a little strange for their fighters to be insurgents one moment and soldiers the next. I do have a big problem with labeling all enemies “terrorists” (as we have seen way too often in Iraq.) It’s a way for Bushco to try to justify their “War on Terror” concept, and it’s a way to try to lump everyone you’re fighting against into an irredeemable evil, and foreclose the idea that they could be someone you could negotiate with.

scarecrow at 12:27

yes, to an extent, Pogo alas was right.

But people at this particular site are working so-o-o-o hard, you may find nerves quite raw, unless you choose words very carefully.

Other ideas, letters to editor, pestering the daylights out of your Congressfolk, hammering them, respectfully of course - heh, about the MSM and their own bias-prone ‘misuse’ of the language.

If they’re falling into the trap, keep after them. Be an absolute pest ;->

another general question - again due to my intermittent thread access of the past few weeks -

just how long has this hearing for Bolton been scheduled ? was it sudden ? on the books for awhile ?

does anyone know ?

OT: Governor Barkley?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....y_governor

Best quote:

Barkley continued to identify himself as a Republican until recently, when he switched parties. “I was a Republican until they lost their minds,” he said earlier this month.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01487.html
“six Republicans would need to break ranks to defeat the nomination if all Democrats were firmly opposed. But Republicans identified Democratic Sens. Joseph I. Lieberman (Conn.), Mary Landrieu (La.) and Ben Nelson (Neb.) as potential pickups for Bolton. All three were among the tiny group of Democrats who supported Bolton when his appointment as undersecretary was approved 57 to 43 in 2001.
Lieberman and Landrieu have said they are undecided, while Nelson is leaning in favor, a spokesman said.”

I love preview… Of course it helps to check for redundant duplications as well as making sure all tags are closed.

:-)

lo — thanks for clarifying that you see a distinction when killing some innocent civilians and not others. The “warning” you mentioned is a dodge; in my hypothetical, the child who gets killed can’t read, let alone escape.

It is my fondest hope that one day you will cease to see that distinction. I could be naive, but IMO, two peoples who see each other as equally as entitled to life are much more likely to sit down and figure out a way to live together.

You apparent see Hezbollah as beings less entitled than others. I don’t. And my recognizing them as equally entitled does not in the slightest diminish my views of the same rights for Americans or Israelis.

John Casper, I can’t believe my eyes.

You are the only one looking out for Israel, who actually comments.

Really, I’m spluttering, that’s so wrong — and from YOU?

May I please have a show of hands of all those who have expressed on recent threads their fear that Olmert’s and the IDF’s actions are increasing Israel’s peril both immediately and long-term?

(hand goes up)

John?

thank you john casper i apprecite your kind words

i agree with you about the us dropping israel if gas goes up but I think you touch on an interesting unintended point. Israel knows this. israel feels they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t . this IMO is part of why they waged forward with this war regardless of public opinion. their is a huge lack of trust in that part of the world

I love preview too. Too bad I hit publish prematurely anyway wrt #118; please disregard!

To reinforce Redshift #113,

Nazi occupiers in France referred to the French Resistance as terrorists. We, of course, considered them heroes and freedom fighters. I’m not equating Hezbollah with the French Resistance, but every side has their own perspective.

lo -

see how easily you went from:

killing innocent people is wrong no matter who they are.

to

bombing a building full of all queda or hezbolla that also has innocent civilians can be seen as an operation with unfortunate civilian casualties

??

Hezbollah are terrorists when they engage in terrorism. So are we. So is al-Qaeda. So is Israel.

Bin Laden keeps sending videos out to say that American’s need to disavow their leadership. Does his “warning” make it ok for him to then murder people?

I agree with this:

But by definition i think terrorism is aimed at instilling fear that innocent anybodies at anytime are at risk in the hopes of having demands met.

That, though, is just what we have been doing; it is what Israel is doing (hey you poverty striken 12 yo girl who can’t walk out of your home without male relatives — it’s YOUR fault you haven’t TOSSED Hezbollah out).

Dropping leaflets before taking out all the civilzation in So Lebanon is not a justified response to Hezbollah. What about those that dont get a leaflet? Don’t have a car to leave? Have sick and elderly family and can’t leave? Are sick themselves? See neighbors bombed in their cars trying to comply with the leaflet’s directions? WHere are they supposed to go? Will they be able to eat when they get there? If they have meds that need to be refrigerated - should they just not take them?

Now does the classification of the death of anyone as a civilian casualty diminsh the loss of life, surely not but there is a distinction.
i hope this makes sense

It doesn’t to me - I don’t see the distinction. Israel has said that it was not “at war” with the Lebanese in general or the Lebanese govt. “Just” targeting Hezbollah criminals.

Israel and the US are like enraged tempertantrumthrowers who can’t find what is making them mad, so they kick the dog and torture the cat. It is not reasoned and not defensible. Nor it is reasoned or defensible when Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO, Badr Brigade, drug cartels, etc. do the same things.

If there is a distinction - I’m not following you yet.

lotus 12:44

BC’s hand is up, too.

BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.....el_bombing

Terrorists or Freedom Fighters ?

http://www.canada.com/topics/n.....38;k=74029

HALIFAX (CP) - The United States and other western countries should be pushing hard for a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah, along with the insertion of an international peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon, former U.S. president Bill Clinton said Wednesday.

The Islamic group Hezbollah’s tactics are at the root of the latest bloody conflict in the region, but Clinton also questioned the length to which Israel has gone to defend itself. “It’s important for us to get some kind of ceasefire now,” Clinton said.

“I think this idea of an international force needs to be fleshed out.”

His position stands in contrast to the Bush administration and Israel, which have both rejected the idea of a quick truce.

Dru: my 119 was irt my 111.

*ilson

Damned 24th Amendment. Who really thinks that the Shrub could have beaten BigDawg in 2000?

BC

Mary — thanks, you’re so much better at this than I. I can go back to work. Hold the fort.

And stay with us lo — these are important issues, and the answers are not always obvious. I hope we’re all still learning.

lotus — I suspect John C meant what you’re saying. Lots of hands. I can’t follow the logic of how anything that’s happened in the last two weeks enhances Israel’s long-run security, let alone America’s interest.

lo

fwiw, my comments #110 & #113 at

http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....our-calls/

might help explain some things about FDL that it took me awhile to figure out. ;->

(((peace)))

lo - none of what I posted means I do not feel very strongly that Israel lives every day in a very tough, unfair and dangerous situation.

It is absolutely WRONG that Hezbollah engages in shelling that targets Israelis, even Israeli soldiers. I’m not saying no response is defensible; but I am saying this response has not been defensible.

My BIL is Jewish and my mother and brother have made trips to Israel and I am a strong supporter of Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself. I’m a strong defender of US right to exist and defend itself. I’m just not a defender of terroristic military or paramilitary assaults on civilians.

omg kristine joy’s link at 12:42 contains this penultimate paragraph:

The head of the state GOP said she has no idea whether Barkley is serious when talking about a future race for governor as a Democrat. “To be governor requires more than a publicity stunt. It requires real leadership,” said Twinkle Andress Cavanaugh.

{ {emphasis mine, name all hers, apparently !! } }

How could I let that name pass without sharing it with all y’all?

Dr. Bong- I know, but coincidentally I just screwed up my post at #118 :0)

John Casper at 12:34 pm:
We have a lot of people who are trying to look out for the needs of the nations surrounding Israel. You are the only one looking out for Israel, who actually comments.

I would disagree with that. Certainly lo has presented a view more supportive of the actions the Israelis are taking, but I certainly think of myself as someone who is looking out both for Israel and its neighbors. I am opposed to many of the actions of right-wing Israeli governments because I honestly believe they are bad for Israel, not just because of the harm done to others.

If you read Juan Cole or Billmon about how Israel’s setting out to wipe out Hezbollah militarily (which is extraordinarily unlikely to succeed) will, if they fail, strengthen Hezbollah enormously, there is no joy there (as one would expect if they were “against Israel.”) I see things much the same way.

Just as the US was perceived as having virtually unlimited worldwide military power, Israel was perceived as having overwhelming regional military power, each until they chose to get into a situation that demonstrated the limits of that power. In each case, that perception was a very useful thing, and the loss of it is a real loss. Each country tragically had leaders who either believed the perception was reality (as seems all too likely), or just didn’t think about the cost of losing it.

Completely OT - WONKETTE is really truly the new Times DC editor?

That’s not a joke?

TSF 133 - uh… Twinkle?!?

(eyes blinking, question mark over head)

Bilmon on Israel today http://billmon.org/archives/002581.html

rough !

Here’s my personal highlight of a wonderful evening spent with shoephone, OscarsMom&Dad, and the irrepressible Ed*ard Teller who ended the night with the following:

“I can argue with myself for hours about the Middle East”.

RBG: Word!

OT

Even if I live to be a grownup, I’ll never understand men. Love some of you? Oh yes. Understand you? Oh how I wish.

GOP Senator Norm Coleman’s father in public sex bust

daring RBG ! Perhaps that should be a new fdl motto?

Israel has a right to exist, a right to a homeland, a right to self-governance, a right to be secure, and a right to be treated with respect and dignity. And the Palestinians are entitled to the same rights.

This is my best reason to vote against Bolton and he brought up the notion of moral equivalency again at the hearing; talk about language and the twisting of it! I can imagine how this sounded overseas.

>>>>>

UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in
Israel from “malicious terrorist acts”.

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: “it is a matter of great concern to us …that these civilian deaths are occurring. It’s a tragedy.”

“I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts,” he added, while defending as “self-defense” Israel’s military action, which has had “the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths”.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20.....0717204728

lo, here is a really thoughtful article that I found interesting from someone clearly “on the side of Israel”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/o.....mNo=711997

“The country that wouldn’t grow up” By Tony Judt

Norm Sr., outside the pizzeria, with Patrizia?

Get a Clue, Senator Coleman.

cbl at 12:41: From what I understand, the Bolton hearing was scheduled relatively quickly (as in days, not “surprise, we’re having a hearing tomorrow.”) I’ve read articles saying that it was done in an appalling political strategy to take advantage of the war in Lebanon for a “don’t change horses in midstream” effect.

I wonder if there’s a procedural maneuver that could postpone the nomination. (Paging Harry Reid!) If it looks like it will pass, I’d love to see their little gambit get turned on them as “you’re right, maybe we shouldn’t change in the middle of this conflict, so we really shouldn’t be considering the nomination at all right now.”

lotus your 121

My hand is up^

Larry

OT:

“In this modern world, we often forget the lessons of more ‘primitive’ cultures…This often results in things for which the reasons are lost to antiquity…”

And, even further off-topic…Can someone find this kitty a home? He’s not very housebroken, his temperament is poor, and he’s ill-suited for houses where diplomacy is a treasured value…Yet, still…

;>)

sorry for the delay my 3yr old had a tantrum
Just curious -what is hezbolla entitled to? the right to live in peace? Aren’t we all entitled to that?
If an organization acts in a such a way to limit other peoples rights to live in peace shouldn’t they be held accountable? yes if diplomatic relationships can make it so peace is sustainable then by all means I’m all for it. I don’t think that is the case here. Even when the arab countries and israel do agree (rare but does) d an extreme faction breaks off and can not be controlled.
also curiously what in your opinion was an appropriate response to 9/11. I think we all agree the Iraq war was not but what was.

mary and scarecrow i do appreciate the dialogue and in full disclosure i have had many family members terrorized while the world watched. If hezbolla and hamas put down their guns it will be the end of this, if israel puts down its guns it will be the end of israel’ agree or disagree its how i feel right now.

Redshift,

thanks for the response - been thinking it was to take advantage of the Lebanon situation - “a vote against Bolton, is a vote against Israel, etc.” and per Boxer’s wishy-washiness this am, they’ve apparently succeeded

and really liked your beautiful economy of words upstairs @ 12:59 - hadn’t even got to thinking about Israel being exposed yet - but am still cynical enough to think we’re being fed fluff about Israeli limitations

Amry at 1pm:

time.com

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....25912.html

Presumably, as a reward for “work” like this:

http://www.time.com/time/natio.....92,00.html

well, actually, that was for Mary.

Christy #110,

Actually I was responding to a question by Blank Kludge as to whether Lieberman was on the committee.

darkblack Easter Island. ahhhh.

Dad (Father Bong) always said: “Measure twice, cut once.”… or something to that effect.

:-)

Hugh 18

(Sorry the time stamps are too tiny for me to read easily)

Speaking of Norm Coleman, didja hear that his 81-year-old father got picked up in MN having s*x in his car?

Poor old guy. As Stephanie Miller said, “No wonder Norm likes the big Pharms so much.”

TSF—I can pretty much guarantee that whatever side ET chooses to argue at any given moment is far more thoughtful and articulate than anything I could add to the conversation.

Israel can have all the military might the USA can afford but keep it within the pre-67 borders! Stop occupying and striking all over the place. Build the highest walls possible but within the pre-67 borders.

Israel is an occupier and that produces the inevitable backlash. Israel is a horrible neighbor and that produces the inevitable backlash.

lotus @ 12:13

Thanks for calling attention to the comments on the Scorecards thread. Every so often, it’s worth it to bring things like this forward.

Which gets me to thinking . . .

We’ve got an amazing bunch of folks around here, as we demand civility, integrity, and clarity from each other, even as we try to offer it up ourselves. Strong views are par for the course, and apologies go a long, long way when we step over the line with one another.

Throw in some fine peacekeepers/troll-wranglers - aka moderators - to enforce things when peer pressure doesn’t quite cut it, and it’s amazing how downright polite it gets around here, even when we disagree.

We’ve got overly educated folks with far too many degrees, and people whose fingernails have had dirt under them since they were six. We’ve got religious folks of all stripes and none, and folks that appear to be from the top of the economic pile as well as folks much closer to the bottom. We’ve got some ridiculously talented graphic artists to sharpen the discussion with images worth a thousand words, and some wordsmiths that this preacher stands in awe of. And don’t get me started on the delightfully twisted senses of humor that roam these parts . . . LMAO doesn’t begin to describe some of the belly laughs I’ve had around here.

All in all, it makes for a fine place to get educated, do some educating, and connect with a cross section of folks that many of us might not come across in the ordinary course of our days. The fact that we’re trying to save the country and the constitution at the same time . . . shucks, that’s just icing on the cake!

Thanks, everyone! When my computer boots up, one of my first thoughts is to wonder what I’ll find at FDL today. I’m rarely disappointed!

sorry i re-read my last rant and need to apologize for the tone. it was not intentional. i love that i can have an intelligent convo here. its why i stick around so i will try to keep my emotions intact.

*ilson #169:

Is it just me, or has Israel become the thing it was founded to oppose?

TSF @ 156:

Anthropologists have determined that these may be representative of some male bonding rite, a quid pro quo for ’services rendered’, perhaps…But the island’s natives, when asked about the historical significance have replied (in their own tongue), “Fukifino“…Evidently, a blessing of some sort.

;>)

NYT: British Take Dim View of Blair’s Close Ties to U.S.

al-Scooter — read that Bilmon rant http://billmon.org/archives/002581.html

Public sex outside a pizza parlor? Was it the anchovies?

Thank you John Casper and Mary. That article was very ineresting.

If you look at the pattern of which USAO offices are being starved of resources, they are all headed by people who have ties to Comey and Fitz.

Just another example of how being percieved as a friend of the good guys makes you collateral damage.

lo at 1:12 pm:
yes if diplomatic relationships can make it so peace is sustainable then by all means I’m all for it. I don’t think that is the case here. Even when the arab countries and israel do agree (rare but does) d an extreme faction breaks off and can not be controlled.

In Northern Ireland, when the main guerilla/terrorist group entered into negotiations, factions broke off and could not be controlled (more than once, actually, the same thing happened in 1922.) And yet they’ve made huge progress, and the region is much more peaceful.

The key is not to treat the mere existence of those splinter groups as a failure, and to accept that you’re trying to make things better, not make them perfect all at once.

Alternatively, it is not enough to say that diplomatic means haven’t solved all the region’s problems. The proposed alternative solution is military means. Since military means have also not solved all the region’s problems, this logic would dictate that it is out of bounds, too. (Really, though, the point is that saying that diplomatic means have not succeeded is not by itself an argument for military action.)

But more fundamentally, if sustainable peace is what is desired, military action alone is never going to achieve it. In the end, some political settlement is necessary, so military action should be judged based on whether it is likely to contribute to that.

thanks, *ilson; Billmon rants eloquently.

Agh. I want to scream, and I have no mouth. (Thank you, Ellison.)

This mess in the Middle East is the Balkans all over again to the nth degree, only this time the Republicans are doing what they wanted Clinton to do, allow this mess to descend into bloody maelstrom on its own and stand idly by or outright ignore the desperation of innocents. And unfortunately, a number of Democrats are just as likely to turn a blind eye to this situation because of their compromised ethics. Yes, compromised, and yes, ethics; Boxer, for example, is siding with a war-stooge and an AIPAC-Likudnik-enabler rather than standing by women’s and children’s rights here and abroad. She is compromised, and she is not alone.

There is NEVER an acceptable number of civilian deaths. It is NEVER righteous to kill children. EVER. Deliberately causing civilian deaths, even as “collateral damage”, is a form of terrorism, whether at the hands of non-governmental independent organizations like Hezbollah or al Qaeda, or at the hands of state functions like the Israeli or U.S. military.

That said, there is a higher obligation on the part of any nation-state’s military, because they 1) function as the arm of the entire population of that nation-state, and 2) have more organized resources at their disposal, and 3) answer to all other nations-states as a peer. In the case of both Israel and the U.S., there seems to be a deliberate and pointed rejection of the concept of police action versus cross-border military action; they have rejected the sovereignty of other countries, democratic or otherwise, when they are in a position to rely upon and demand that same respect rendered by their global neighbors and partners. The deaths of civilians, including children, is wound up tightly in this rejection of sovereignty; this is not merely terrorism but anarchism.

Israel’s deliberate attack upon U.N. observers — and I say deliberate, because Israel was notified multiple times about the position of the observers — is a slap in the face of the world community. Combined with the deliberate killing of innocents, and beginning with the shelling of a Palestinian family on the beach in Gaza last month, the current Olmert administration is escalating a war for ends that must be discerned and dealt with effectively, before the world is dragged into another Crusade.

But the U.S. has been played like a fiddle for the last 6 years; it has lost its moral compass and can no longer find a footing, especially when its weak-willed and intellectually-bankrupt leadership can be gamed so easily. I have little hope that we will avoid an explosive conflagration.

Condi tells us “Yes, there were a lot of countries (Rome talks) calling for an immediate ceasefire. There were several that did not.” Sounds like another “coalition of the willing” bunk. Rice’s logic continues: “Everytime there is a broken ceasefire, people die and there is destruction and misery”. Washington opposes a ceasefire. Unbelievable. What does the Secretary of State think we have now over there? And who does she think we are?

new thread — new video !

SpazeBoy (pant! pant! pant!)

Peterr, I marvel at the riches of our banquet.

Please ask your resident scientist to hug your neck for me ASAP, would you?

now that i cooled off it seems many people are torn between israel’s need to defend and the appropriate response. I am also torn and at aloss as to what would have been an appropriate response.
I also think the criticism of the media works for how it portrays Israel as well

I’m late to the party and sure I’m going to be EPU’d! From Think Progress:

In 2005, Lieberman reportedly was “considering voting for Bolton” had a vote come up. His spokesman Matt Gobush elaborated:

Senator Lieberman remains undecided about Mr. Bolton’s nomination. As a general rule, he believes the president should have the latitude to choose his own Cabinet, except in the most extraordinary cases. The senator is studying the issues raised by the committee to determine whether this is one of those cases.

First, and I can’t believe I’m the only one to ever say this: Go Bush???

Okay, here’s the thing: This is an extraordinary circumstance. The president is not worthy of his office, whether you blame criminality or incompetence. George W. Bush has lost the presumption of good faith. All his decisions, all his appointments are suspect and should be subject to review by cooler and more virtuous (cough cough) heads.

It’s against the tender sensibilities of the corporate media and most elected representatives to call someone a liar to their face, even a liar. That phenomenon plays here, where no one is willing to just say it, flat out: The president needs to be supervised in all things.

and people whose fingernails have had dirt under them since they were six.

Five, actually,but who’s counting anyway? *g*
peterr,excellent. I have exactly the same thoughts. you articulated them. Thanks.

I suppose an epu’d “thanks” to everyone is better than hijacking a thread early on . . .

;)

Rayne @ 1:34 –
You put it perfectly — the US has been played for the last 6 years and I STILL don’t think the ones in charge have figured it out.

OK Kiddo:

“Everytime there is a broken ceasefire, people die and there is destruction and misery”. Washington opposes a ceasefire.

Proof that you don’t have be smart or even understand elementary logic to get a PhD in Soviet Studies.

BC

Rayne:

Of course there is an acceptable number of civilian deaths.

The acceptable number is 0. As in, zero, zip, nada, none. Any other number is unacceptable.

BC

I know, lo — we’re all at a loss over this. But jeez, we’re just private citizens, not elected decision-makers handed the power of the state by its citizens.

The gawd-awfullest piece of this is that those entrusted with that power are proving themselves even MORE at a loss than we are.

We may be at our wits’ end — but the puffed-up turkeys in Tel Aviv and DC are clearly past theirs.

Criminey.

lo:
If hezbolla and hamas put down their guns it will be the end of this, if israel puts down its guns it will be the end of israel’ agree or disagree its how i feel right now.

The problem with considering that in isolation is that it ignores the idea that anyone other that the Israelis have any right to the territory Israel controls. It’s kind of like if I were to build an addition to my house extending into your front yard, and told you that everything would be okay if you just stopped fighting me.

One of the fundamental problems of the region is that Israel’s founding was perhaps the last act of colonialism in the world, heavily based on attitudes at the time that non-European peoples didn’t really “count.” I see it as rather similar to the problem of slavery in the founding of the U.S. We can’t “take it back,” (nor do I think we should), nor, in either case, do I think the descendents are responsible for the actions of their ancestors, but I do think they are responsible for the consequences of those actions, having benefited from them, and an equitable solution is going to have to acknowledge them.

Teddy - that’s more against me than for me I think, but thanks.

Darkblack - that’s the funniest one yet. It may kill the catlover in me, but funny!

lo - I don’t have any problem with your tone; you’re very civil. I just think we are talking at cross purposes some, and language is probably a part of it.

WHen you say:

Just curious -what is hezbolla entitled to? I’m not sure how we got to that question, bc I’ve not been talking about Hezbollah - I’ve been talking about civilians being bombed and strafed and killed, with lots of children as casualties.

It is a complicated question, though, along with Hamas and the IRaqi militias etc. Bc they now ALL have this “quasi govermental” function as “parties” elected in democratic elections. That makes it even more a mess.

the right to live in peace? Aren’t we all entitled to that?
I think as long as leaders of Hezbollah and the party act politically and not criminally and militarily - they are entitled to live in peace. Otherwise - not so much. Same as others who engage in criminal and terroristic acts. Keep in mind - the US President and AG have ENSHRINED torture and civilian targeting and invasions of non-belligerent countries and kidnap for torture and torture as actual STATED AMERICAN POLICIES. That’s pretty dumbfounding and if all Americans were held “to account” for their actions, the way all Lebanese (and even UN observers) are being held to account for Hezbollah actions, then what? At what point would we think it wasn’t ok? At the 9/11 point, certainly. To prevent those kinds of points, you have to be willing to say something when it is someone else, even someone you don’t ideologically care for, who is being targeted, if they were not the actual parties commiting terrorist and criminal acts.

If an organization acts in a such a way to limit other peoples rights to live in peace shouldn’t they be held accountable?

Yes. Killing an 8yo or a pregnant woman fleeing or UN observers - - those are not actions holding Hezbollah accountable.

also curiously what in your opinion was an appropriate response to 9/11. I think we all agree the Iraq war was not but what was.

I can’t really deal with that in full here - not enough time and probably not enough interest from most. But I thought the Afghanistan invasion to get to al-Qaeda members in their training camps, especially after the Taliban, refused to give them up. I also thought it was ok to go in and take out Noriega for that matter.

I did not agree and still don’t agree that Geneva Conventions should have ever been abandoned in that venture. While military force was going to be needed and was needed, I always believed that the goal should have been criminal prosecutorial responses to those who were taken. Imman wouldn’t like to hear me say this, but although I have a problem with a lot of aspect of the death penalty - I wouldn’t have had one with the death penalty for anyone directly involved in planning/participation/recruiting for 9/11 or any other terrorist acts they uncovered in the criminal investigations.

I also am not in favor of a nation building approach, but with Afghanistan I would have been willing to see us make the effort, in large part because of how tied the whole country is to drug trade. It could have been a very wise investment to take a pittance of what has been squandered in IRaq and try to build and economy and support an government. Instead - it was all sidetracked and nothing done about the drug issue.

I won’t ramble anymore, but we needed an overall response - military, criminal/prosecutorial/economic etc.

We got lawless torture as State Policy.

Yippee.

new thread: spazeboy and CT-Bob !

lhp - you think it is that specifically targeted? Not just across the board with extra impact on big offices?

Just wondering. The article mentioned several offices that seemed to be the larger ones.

I have had family members terrorized, too while the world watched, lo. It is painful. But my bigger family, all my brothers and sisters in this wide world, cannot suffer the same and worse while I sit silent. No life is more precious than another and we all share the same human history. History tells us that Occupation always hurts.

OK Kiddo at 1:06 conveys my feelings, too.

And thankfully, this out of the EU:

>>>>>>>>>>>

The European Union said today that Israel misinterpreted the outcome of the Middle East conference in Rome and that the fighting in Lebanon should cease immediately.

Speaking on behalf of the European Union, Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja said Israeli views that the Rome declaration indicated it should continue its offensive were ”totally wrong”.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/new.....215;4y9496

Peter, You are a gift.

Linda R - The President needs to be supervised in all things.

Can we get every member of Congress to stay after class today for some extended time at the chalk board? Perfect.

lo, are you still here?

Did you get a chance to read TRex’s Late Nite thread from last night/this morning? I recommend it to you as a lovely spot of mental and spiritual refreshment — a real breaker of tension and restorer of tranquillity.

C’mon, be good to yourself and try it.

lo 1:38 pm — What, if any, political and diplomatic effort did the Olmert administration take to address the first attack by Hezbollah after the shelling of a Palestinian family on the beach in Gaza?

What, if any, political and diplomatic effort did the Olmert administration take to address the outcome of the shelling of the Palestinian family? As far as I can tell, the Israeli government issued a blanket denial — and that was that.

What, if any, political and diplomatic effort was made to encourage the duly-elected Hamas government to pursue a fully-accountable, fully-responsible ascension to leadership? As far as I can tell, the Israelis government immediately began to undermine Hamas with the aid of the U.S. Vinegar catches a lot less flies than honey, yes? The chain-rattling about yanking all aid to the captive Palestinian population, including women and children, did little to encourage a positive relationship to Israel.

Winning hearts and minds is simply not done with weapons; weapons merely breed further discontent. The surest methodology to improve a country’s standard of living and make it more politically stable is to educate its women and children, in addition to economic development. How is Olmert’s administration encouraging this, either in Palestinian territory, or across the border in Lebanon? At this rate, how will the undernourished and beleaguered children of Palestine ever learn to love Israel? How will these same children ever persuade their sympathetic neighbors in Lebanon to do so?

What really frost my chaps is that this is basic brand management and marketing — not even anything like nation-building I’m talking about. Even on this most elemental of business basics, the Olmert and Bush administrations are f*ckups of the first water. They can’t sell the idea of Israel or the U.S. as they are currently led to anybody, not even us.

sorry lotus my 3 beautiful children came home. A few hours with them will return me to normal or at least distract me from the plight in the ME. I’ll reconnect later and catch up on the trex link thanks

Darkblack…

Can someone find this kitty a home?

I knew I could count on you.

Lotus at 1:04: “I’ll never understand men.”

True, the senior Mr. Coleman got lots o’ ’splainin’ to do. But surely you don’t mean to imply that the behavior of the woman in the story is perfectly transparent to you?

one thing i can’t resist… the palestinian people are people and even if they hate my people they are mothers daughters, sons fathers etc.

don’t any of you think that the arab countries could have done a better job integrating them into arab societies and building them up. The plight of the palestinians was no different than the million jewish refugees thrown out of arab countries in the 40’s,50’s and 60’s. You don’t hear about their plight because the Israel, us, france etc took a lot in and they integrated into society.
Please don’t think i am prejudiced against arabs, but if everyone deserves a little blame here and i think they do the plight of the palestinians does not rest soley at the hands of israel.
My father in law and his hole family were thrown out of egypt in the 50’s. all they were able to take was one bag. Doesn’t that make him a refugee as well. Who came to defend his rights?
look the reason we are torn is because most of us have deeply rooted morals and ethics that define us. at least that is the silver lining in any of this, if there is one. Now back to my kids…..

lo — was in your Jewish Egyptian fatherinlaw thrown out of Egypt before or after the 1956 Suez Canal Invasion by the Israelis along with the British and French? Such aggression does not make for friendship amongst peoples …

Many Palestinian refugees were taken in all over the world but like some religious folk pining for Zion, they too wish to return to their homeland of Palestine.

Nice post Christy. That quote from Sen. Dodd really cracked me up.

I realize this is a late post, but this diary reflects the correct framing of the Bush diplomacy.

It’s not “Cowboy Diplomacy” which conjures up images of Marshall Matt Dillon or Wyatt Earp.

In reality it’s “schoolyard diplomacy” being conducted by this administration, where the bullies run rampant.

(Think of the three juvenile thugs from the Simpsons who are always beating somebody up)

even though i’m sure everyone is gone i will say Mary your ability to put things into words impresses me . redshift you also make some points i would like to think about.

Mary my question about hezbollahs entiltment came from scarecrows response to me “
you apparent see Hezbollah as beings less entitled than others”

lo

far as I can see, Mary’s ability to put things into words is legendary in these parts. ;->

“Ineffective” is precisely the reason to support Bolton. U.S. foreign policy, and the U.S. desire to use the U.N. in support of that policy in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, Gaza, and elsewhere, is thoroughly reactionary. The less “effective” it is, the better.