Yay everyone. I’m so glad you front paged it.
‘ear

What a dickhead our Joe is.

Fitz!

Fitz!

people power!

Man, I should have fitzd and them read Jane’s post.

Joe ignores everyone. Except Joe. ‘Ask not what I can do for my country, or for my party; ask what they can do for me’. And soldiers be damned.

And Lieberman’s weapons expertise comes from…?

kobe !

Lieberman never served in the military. A spokesperson told the Hartford Courant in 1994 that Lieberman received an educational deferment from the Vietnam War draft when he was an undergraduate and law student from 1960-67. Upon graduating from law school at 25, Lieberman qualified for a family deferment as he was already married and had one child, Matt. The draft ended in 1973.[15]

Actually Jane, hoi polloi means the common people in greek.

BC

I heard Lieberman received more deferments than Cheney. Anyone know the exact number?

This is such a remarkable microcosm of Joe’s Iraq position. He assumes he knows what sort of weapons our troops need better than the troops themselves, just like he assumes his drive-by Iraq visit gave him a clearer picture than that provided by soldiers, aid workers, journalists, and Iraqi politicians. His egoism knows no bounds.

During the VietNam War period, Joe correctly opposed that devastating episode of the armed services. Most chickenhawks just loved that war but “had other priorities” personally. Lieberman was consistent — he opposed the war and did not fight in it.

Wow, what a powerful letter.

Hey, Jane, it’s ‘hoi polloi.’

This is a devastating letter. Nice to know RGJoe’s DeeCee team is on the ball, responding to constituents’ needs, like the right guns in the right war.

Amazing that the DC adviser would argue with the soldier in theatre: “No, you have the right guns, we know best, don’t tell us what guns you need!”

Best wishes to Colin D. Halloran for a safe return stateside. Thanks to him for his service, patriotism, and courage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_…..218036.stm

British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett has protested to the US about its use of a Scottish airport to transport bombs to Israel.

Amid the Lebanon crisis, Mrs Beckett said it seemed the US was not following the right procedures over arms flights.

She said she was “not happy” and she had talked directly to US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice about it.

Did we ever find out why the Big Dog was so late to Monday’s Lieberman rally?

Someone rumored that Bill refused to go on stage until Joe promised not to turn this into a risky 3-way race. (When Joe loses on August 8th.)

For anyone interested in Monday’s Clinton/Lieberman lovefest yet you can go here..
http://www.ctn.state.ct.us/ondemand.asp

Sorry you got the right wing boot job, Spazeboy.

instead of hoi-polloi (common folk), why not say Gold Braid?

I am truely amazed Leavermann behaved that way. I knew he was a weasel, but to FUBAR your “principle” issue so badly and at the same time back-stab your military constituents would indicate the lack of a soul OR a brain.

Jeez… I’m glad MySQL got fixed. Talk about FDL withdrawal…

:-)

Dr. Bong

I know! I was fiending….

Ditto what Dr. Bong said.

howard stern slams lieberman audio/transcript at c&l

http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..7/26/9212/

me Bong too. better now!

Matt B-H, apologies for referring to you as “Mark” on an earlier thread today. Had my saints mixed up.

Amazing that the DC adviser would argue with the soldier in theatre: “No, you have the right guns, we know best, don’t tell us what guns you need!”

Didn’t you know? Mr. Halloran is a known protester.

I just looked at the timestamps between 21 & 22. TWELVE WHOLE MINUTES. Pretty sad, huh?

And Lieberman’s weapons expertise comes from…?

I’m sure he consulted carefully with the White House Iraq Group.

Holy Crap. Off Topic, but dangerous stuff. There is a truly disturbing video on youtube of a NYC rally with Elie Wiesel calling Hezbollah & Hamas two totalitarian movements that live to eliminate Israel. Hilary is there. And he thanks God that George Bush is preznit. & The crowd is in a frenzy. Pamela of Atlas shrugs is probably there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..arch=atlas shrugs

Joe and his staff probably thought Mr. Halloran was a “plant,” who’d gotten himself sent to Afghanistan just so he could embarass Joe about the war.

(Just trying to get into the Lieber-bubble mindset here, but since Joe has joined the Bush administration in consistently outpacing attempts to satirize them, I can’t be sure it’s not the truth.)

Mack @ 8:

And Lieberman’s weapons expertise comes from…?

His intense discussions with other Knights of the Round Table, of course.

Oh lordy:
>>>>>>>>>>
There’s much discussion of putting a multinational, NATO-led force in southern Lebanon as part of a ceasefire agreement in the Israel–Lebanon conflict, but Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, according to a story in the Washington Post, has said that she does “not think that it is anticipated that U.S. ground forces . . . are expected for that force.” However, a well-connected former CIA officer has told me that the Bush Administration is in fact considering exactly such a deployment.

http://harpers.org/sb-source-b…..36109.html

That letter needs to be sent to and published in the NYtimes!

JoMo is interested in ….JoMo.. it is painfully obvious… when JoMo’s interest coincide with someone’s else interests (israel..pharma, insurance, banks…) he speaks for them… but that may be because they support JoMO???

Joe is a horrible example of a patriot. I want all of us to forward this information to Babs. I’m fuming.

mui and angie, I’ve just read that stuff. Can the news get any more grim?

The link to this story, brought to my attention by a friend, appears on Raw Story:

http://harpers.org/sb-source-b…..36109.html

Could U.S. Troops End Up in Lebanon?
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006. By Ken Silverstein.

There’s much discussion of putting a multinational, NATO-led force in southern Lebanon as part of a ceasefire agreement in the Israel–Lebanon conflict, but Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, according to a story in the Washington Post, has said that she does “not think that it is anticipated that U.S. ground forces . . . are expected for that force.” However, a well-connected former CIA officer has told me that the Bush Administration is in fact considering exactly such a deployment.

The officer, who had broad experience in the Middle East while at the CIA, noted that NATO and European countries, including England, have made clear that they are either unwilling or extremely reluctant to participate in an international force. Given other nations’ lack of commitment, any “robust” force—between 10,000 and 30,000 troops, according to estimates being discussed in the media—would by definition require major U.S. participation. According to the former official, Israel and the United States are currently discussing a large American role in exactly such a “multinational” deployment, and some top administration officials, along with senior civilians at the Pentagon, are receptive to the idea.

(snip)

Sending American soldiers is at this point simply an option and by is no means a certainty, but if the administration decides to move forward, my source said, “It would be viewed in the Arab world as the United States picking up a combat role on behalf of Israel.” And as Mahan Abedin, Director of Research at the Centre for the Study Of Terrorism in London, noted in an email he sent me yesterday, any deployment of peacekeepers to southern Lebanon “would require the acquiescence of Hezbollah. There are no indications [that] this will be forthcoming, not least because such a force could potentially lay the groundwork for Hezbollah’s disarmament.”

The former CIA officer said that the Bush Administration seems not to understand Hezbollah’s deep roots and broad support among Lebanon’s Shiites, the country’s largest single ethnic bloc. “A U.S. force is going to end up making, not keeping, peace with Hezbollah. Once you start fighting in a place like that you’re basically at war with the Shiite population. That means that our soldiers are going to be getting shot at by Hezbollah. This would be a sheer disaster for us.”

The scenario of an American deployment appears to come straight out of the neoconservative playbook: send U.S. forces into the Middle East, regardless of what our own military leaders suggest, in order to “stabilize” the region. The chances of success, as we have seen in Iraq, are remote. So what should be done? My source said the situation is so volatile at the moment that the only smart policy is to get an immediate ceasefire and worry about the terms of a lasting truce afterwards.

Prayers for Colin Halloran, and all the others deployed; the power of his letter shows, not only leaverman’s inadequacy, but the talent, like Colin’s, that we need in our political life.

I’m really hoping that August Ninth is a date with destiny for Barbara Boxer and BigDog, among others. But these two, having campaigned so publicly for their friend and demonstrated their loyalty to RGJoe, have a unique role to play when Ned beats RGJoe.

These two loyal Democrats can tell RGJoe to stand down, retire gracefully, and leave the general election to Ned and whatever non-gambler, non-pedophile the GOP runs. I am really hoping that Barbara Boxer, in particular, will use her considerable influence on RGJoe.

She’s earned the right to tell him to back down! She knows her supporters, admirers, and constituents — most of us sad, angry, puzzled, and confused after her trip to the candy store — are owed that. She will, wisely, use her influence to tell Joe he’s done.

Also, on August Ninth, we can focus on Jonathan Tasini’s race against HillDog in the September NY primary — a Ned win will be a big scare for Hill, and that money needs spending! If Tasini’s polling at 13% now, might national coverage of the NY primary put a real scare into HillDog and the pro-war Dems?

========
Had Enough?
========

Meanwhile, apparently a large proportion of U.S. troops in Iraq have already been ‘withdrawn’ – not home, of course, but to the giant permanent bases we have constructed in Iraq, where they remain hunkered down for the indefinite future, while Members of Congress pretend that their presence remains vital for the protection of innocent Iraqis. Nevermind that the innocent Iraqis aren’t garrisoned at military bases, but are instead stuck right in the middle of murderous cross-fire from various Iraqi assailants rampaging through lawless cities like Baghdad.

Also meanwhile, members of the U.S. Air Force based in the states have started being hastily trained to serve as members of the U.S. Army, prior to being deployed to Iraq, as I understand it (the opt-out fine print was conveniently not pointed out to them in time…). Too bad Congress doesn’t give a damn about what the Hell is really going on over there – it would be nice to have at least a few facts to go on, besides the obscene ongoing cost of our violence-enhancing occupation.

As for Lieberman’s fellow supremely-arrogant Iraq occupation cheerleader, Senator Charles Schumer of New York:

Question #1: As numerous constituents have reported on this site in the last few days, the boilerplate response from Chuck Schumer’s senate staffers was that Schumer had no position yet on the Specter/Cheney ‘Sell Out The Constitution and FISA’ bill, but that Schumer had ‘requested a further hearing’ on the matter, which was scheduled for Wednesday morning (today) in the Judiciary Committee, of which he is a member. As far as I can tell from all the helpful live-blogging here (so far I’ve only seen the last hour of the hearing myself) the only Democratic Senators who even bothered to show up today were Pat Leahy, Ted Kennedy, and Dianne Feinstein. Therefore, Senator Schumer was missing in action throughout his “own” hearing, and blew off the opportunity to further pin down the Justice Department, CIA Director Hayden, the new NSA director, and others. Furthermore, Schumer apparently decided to “boycott” the speech to a joint session of Congress by the new PM of Iraq, which was underway for the last hour of the Judiciary Committee’s FISA hearing (where by the end only Specter and Leahy were present). So where was Senator Schumer between 11 a.m. and noon today (while most of the rest of Congress was listening to a speech) that was so much more important than educating himself and the public about the horrific FISA-repealing Specter/Cheney legislation? [Working out a planned endorsement of John Bolton, as rumored, with AIPAC and company??]

Question #2: It’s quite clear that people who read blogs have taken the measure of the DSCC and the ways in which they choose to spend their money, and that these Americans have consciously started to avoid sending their donations to the DSCC. That leaves the direct-mail ‘victims’ of the DSCC solicitations, who do not access the internet for information, to be suckered for individual donations based on the flim-flam of the DSCC’s (and DCCC’s) direct mail sales pitches. But somehow I don’t think that source of funds is where the really deep pockets of the DSCC are. So exactly where, and from whom, is most of the money that Schumer’s DSCC has been raising, hand over fist of late, coming from?

lo, thanks for the link.

MySQL has fallen and it can’t get up… oh, there it is.

Great letter. The more important issue than Lieberman’s extreme suckitude is that the soldiers get what they need to stay alive… and come home soon… alive. Too bad blood-n-guts lieberman doesn’t see that. In Lieberman’s head, the important issue is to save face and get re-elected in-spite of that party-pooper Lamont. “Why don’t the people like me? sob sob sob… I served sushi at my campaign event, isn’t that enough to get re-elected?”

I heard Lieberman can break down an M16 in 30 seconds flat… blindfolded! Oh wait, that was Rambo, not RamJoe.

Colin Halloran reminds us that not all of the chicken hawks are Republicans.

angie -

I was in the process of typing my comments when you posted your comments about the Harper’s story.

in those 12 minutes between 21 and 22, I loaded the dishwasher, started it up, and washed the leftover dishes that wouldn’t fit.

I did not sit at my mac and hit apple-R. well, maybe once or twice.

Damn activist soldiers…

Steve Gilliard also has this and I diaried the LTE at DKos where it is now on the recommended list. I don’t do a lot of diarying or diary whoring, but in this case I would ask people to go there and keep it on the Rec list so that as many people as possible read this letter:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/26/151053/527

Thanks,

Jim

Another BIG nail in R.G Joes coffin….
LieberLIAR is a fool and a DINOTHUG!

Lieberman opposed the war in ‘Nam. And I always respected him for that. But the Bush war in Iraq is just as bad and misguided as was the Johnson war in Vietnam. Where have you gone joltin’ Joe Liebrman? A lonely nation once turned its lonely eyes to you. Woo-woo-woo. You have let the country down. You have let your party down. And perhaps most importantly Joe, you have let yourself down. Terribly. I am, at once, ashamed of you.

By way of Raw Story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/isra…..97,00.html

Weeks of war to come, says Israeli general
UN base fired on 21 times
No ceasefire date set in Rome
30 Israeli casualties in southern Lebanon

Staff and agencies
Wednesday July 26, 2006

Guardian Unlimited

Amid intensifying recriminations tonight over the killing of four UN monitors, an Israeli army general tonight said the bombing campaign in Lebanon would continue for many weeks.
“I assume it will continue for several more weeks, and in a number of weeks we will be able to [declare] a victory,” Major General Udi Adam, the head of Israel’s northern command, said at a news conference.

Earlier, the United Nations general secretary, Kofi Annan, accused the Israeli military of carrying out a sustained bombing of the UN base on the Lebanon-Israel border that culminated in the killing of four unarmed monitors.

Mr Annan said he had suggested to the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, that they carry out a joint investigation into the events that led to the shelling of the “well-established and well marked” Unifil (UN interim force in Lebanon) post in the town of Khiyam.

(snip)

Lieberman Rumbles Against Iran, Endorses McCain for Prez

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/7/25/221722/420

Just a little feedback, Jane. Some of the FDL blogging coming out of Connecticut is, to say the least, counterproductive and self-indulgent. In particular, I’m thinking of the video from the confrontation with Barbara Boxer where at the end you hear the words, “I almost shit my pants!” Did that really have to go out like that? Not that I’m offended, but it doesn’t really reflect well on Lamont’s supporters and if Lieberman was running a competent campaign it might have been used against Lamont.

As for Clinton’s appearance yesterday, I was really interested in reading a critical review of how it went, how the audience reacted, the chemistry between the two, and an assessment of how it helped or hurt Lieberman. But nothing of the sort appeared on this blog because, it seems, the only people who went were you and Spazeboy who were recognized and denied admission. It would’ve helped to have arranged to have someone who could get in and write something informative about it. Seeing a video of you and Spazeboy clowning with tickets didn’t really substitute.

All in all, FDL’s coverage of the Connecticut primary doesn’t really seem worth sending you up there. There hasn’t been that much informative that you’ve written on the race.

You’re a very talented writer and I was expecting a little more reporting and a little more gravity.

Take this as friendly feedback. Your normal great writing is sorely missed here.

joe loserman and babs boxer have suddenly become omniscient ???

Babs knows what joe “MEANT” and the rest of us “misunderstood” what loserman said

holy joe loserman knows more about the weapons needed by the troops, and the soldiers that have to fight the battles just “misunderstood” the requirements of the battlefeild

is there a word for people who think they know everything, but actually know NOTHING ???

Great letter, which reveals that Joe’s hearing problem is more extensive than we originally believed. Apparently, he has difficulty hearing anything that does not comport with his own opinion about himself, his performance or his positions. It explains a lot about his utter tone-deafness on so many issues in this campaign, doesn’t it? In fact, the hearing problem may be exacerbated by a similar, and related, vision deficit, as he also has difficulty seeing things that are right under his nose. It may explain his absence from Connecticut, as there are neighborhoods in the DC area that look a lot like parts of Connecticut, and his vision problems apparently interfere with his ability to see where, exactly, he is.

Joe just gets more pathetic by the minute.

Thanks to TSF, I’m now a WaPo registration.
Today’s online chats:
“

Today’s Washington Post online chat w/political writer Chris Cillizza:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … mp;sub=new

…”Oxford, Miss.: Maybe I’m just dense, but I really don’t understand WHY Bill Clinton campaigned for Lieberman at this point. Why not just wait out the primary and support whomever wins? Clinton and Lieberman have never been good personal buddies or political allies anyway.

Chris Cillizza: Lots of Lieberman questions.

Look, Bill Clinton and Joe Lieberman have known each other for more than 30 years. Bill Clinton worked as a staffer on Lieberman’s first campaign for the state Senate in the early 1970s. I think the two men have a genuine affection for one another.

While I am as cynical as the next guy when it comes to politicians, I do think that sometimes they make decisions out of loyalty and friendship rather than out of some strategic design.

Bill and Hillary Clinton have both said they will support the Democratic nominee in the fall, which, it’s looking more and more likely, won’t be Lieberman.

_______________________

Chicago, Ill.: If Lieberman were to lose the Democratic primary for senate in Connecticut, what if anything would that say about the fall elections?

Chris Cillizza: I answered a similar question on The Fix yesterday.

A Lieberman loss, which is at least a 50-50 proposition at the moment, would have a major impact on Democratic politicians — especially those running for president in 2008 who have been hesitant about calling for a timeline for withdrawal.

While I believe that Lieberman’s struggles have as much to do with the stridency with which he has voice his support for the war as his actual position, a loss would be interpreted as a warning to any and all Democrats that the party’s base simply will not accept anything other than strong critics of the war.

This is one of the most fascinating races in a long time in Connecticut. I am watching it very closely.

_______________________

Rochester, N.Y.: Would a Lamont win in the Connecticut Democratic primary have an effect on solidifying a national Democratic party position on Iraq?

Chris Cillizza: See my last answer.”…
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dan Balz ‘Bellwether’ discussion followed:
–
…”Alpharetta, Ga.: Do you think the CT senate primary will impact the three House races there this fall: Johnson, Simmons and Shays?

Dan Balz: The Lieberman-Lamont race is such a fascinating contest. If Lieberman loses and runs as an independent, that could hurt Democratic chances of sweeping the three GOP-held congressional seats you mentioned: CT 2 Simmons), CT 4 (Shays) and CT 5 (Johnson). Lieberman will be trying to draw out independent and Republican voters to support his independent candidacy and Democrats will find themselves in a potentially debilitating split. No one knows at this point what all that will add up to but Democrats involved in the race don’t think a Lieberman independent candidacy is good for those House candidates.”…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00508.html
—–
Guess that’s enough.

Stephen,

There are many problems with even thinking about sending our troops to Lebanon. First, where are we going to get them? We’re already over committed as it is. Second, what is the chance that Hizb’allah and its supporters will view us as anything like honest brokers? We need our troops in another car-bomb paradise like we need another Bush presidency. Third, there’s the problem of subordinating under UN auspices. Subordination is not something BushCo does well.

And on, and on and on…

BC

kaleidescope – Thank you for your heartfelt concern.

There is going to be a PR pushback from Isreal. They are going to fight for public support from the American people. So, yes there was a rally today. Ed Koch is doing Paula Zahn’s show tonight.

I’m sure there is more. I’m not sure I have a postion on who’s in the “right” in the ME war. I just want the carnage to end.

But make no mistake, Isreal is not going to forego US public opinion w/o a full court press

This is HUGE and ought to be picked up by every blog out there… What a letter. Thanks for spotlighting it.

I tried to leave a comment earlier but it didn’t take, so I’m reposting.

Here’s what jumps out at me from Colin’s letter:

Soldiers from 1-102 Infantry Battalion of the Connecticut National Guard Now on Their FIFTH Deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan — With No End in Sight.

This alone underscores the folly of Leiberman’s position on the war and it’s something I’d like to see Lamont address.

Veruca
http://www.t-shirthumor.com/Me…..atk_lg.gif

It’s pathetic that soldiers are getting so little response and support on things like adequate equipment, mental health treatment (Boxer and Leiberman may have collaborated on legislation, but from what you see-hear-read the implementation is not there, at best soldiers suffering are being drugged and sent back it seems) financial assistance and housing etc. assistance when they come back (the article on homeless vets was a disgrace for this country and that so many are from Vietnam shows how little business we had taking on another Vietnam without taking care of those who fought that war first) etc.

Prayers for all in harms way to come home safe.

And while I think Israel has gone way too far (and am also chewing on Ghostman’s comment as to what they may not have wanted observed) they are under nonstop threat from groups like Hamas and Hezbollah (and PLO for that matter). The fact that they helped create them doesn’t mean they are not under threat from them. We need some real diplomats and statesmen as well as strategists on the military, counterterrorism and economic fronts. Instead we have Rice in leather and stilettos and Bush with fingers in ears and eyes scrinched shut (I wonder if Henry from yesterday is still employed?) saying “you can’t make me if I don’t wanna”

Well yipfreakinee.

>>>>>>>>
OT SP,CPA – I will try to find direct references in Suskind’s book for you tonight on the “walk like an Egyptian Dictator” school of thought, but the general tenor of the book is that most of the advice that is actually followed comes from Cheney and “his people.”

Bargain Countertenor says:
July 26th, 2006 at 1:30 pm

I agree with your comments; I’m simply passing along a story that we should think about. You’ve made some excellent observations about logistical challenges that will be encountered in Lebanon.

OT to OK kiddo:

I was just about to reply to your question on the silence of Russia and China, last thread, when that MySQL thingy hit. This is what I wanted to say:

There’s another interesting country-not-heard-from, too.

Pakistan.

Could that be because Gen./Pres. Musharraf is sitting over there in Islamabad catatonic with fear of his Inter-Services Intelligence? Could his alleged “subordinates” in the jihad-friendly ISI be gunning for him with special zeal these days? Could they also be watching Israel’s growing desperation with an eye to trying out their buddy A.Q. Khan’s little toys sometime soon? And if Pervez M — the friend of the Friend of their enemy — in any way tries to hold all that fun back, could they hesitate a minute longer to off him?

I dunno. Maybe the Sunni-Shia dynamic plays in a way I’m not grasping here. But something tells me that the knuckleheads allegedly doing our Chimp’s thinking for him have probably taken their eyes off Pakistan. And something tells me that Our Pervez can’t be a happy chappy just now . . .

=====

Oh mercy. That cocaine-&-hooker-lovin’ fool Wexler is in Jerusalem yapping to Wolfie. What next?

I had so much respect for Ed Koch during the fight against the War in VietNam — he was such a champion of peace back then. He slowly deteriorated politically and even endorsed George Bush in the last election. What a collapse of a good man…

Well Joe has passed the final test…..

Chickenhawk, rubberstamp, forget the soldiers/veterans,and send em for a ride

REPUBLICAN

I demand he now be referred to as such:

Joe Leiberman (R) CT

I wonder if Big Dog and Hillary saw Joes proping up of the LOSER McCain?…….
Think I will send them an email.

So who are our troops going to shoot at if they are part of a multinational force? The Lebanese, Hizbollah or the Israelis– or all of the above?

Inquiring minds want to know.

omg kaleidescope 52 wrote:

All in all, FDL’s coverage of the Connecticut primary doesn’t really seem worth sending you up there. There hasn’t been that much informative that you’ve written on the race.

“sending you up there” wtf???
how much did YOU put in, kaleidescope?

I’m licking my chops for the JH/RH smackdown on this, so I’ll just shut up now. hehehe

angie -
great question

OT – Can’t believe it — I am back from the land of the lost. I was in toobz land with the screen saying when I tried to access FDL

“Your PHO installation appears to be missing the MySQL which is required for Word Press.”

HuH????? I called the cable company – no help. I emailed lotus to tell you I was lost, but after almost an hour, here I am. I must be a basket case, getting so upset because I cannot read what you guys are saying. I am a WATB for sure when it comes to FDL.

So now my only problem is too much food in the keyboard and the enter buttom keeps getting stuck.

Back to normal programing — but the fact that i cannot even survive an hour without FDL means I have a serious problem. :)

Second only to Gore’s 2000 Presidential campaign, Lieberman is running the worst campaign in history. How is his staff not all over something like Colin’s letter? What a great chance to shore up his pro-war credentials and, instead, Lieberman manages to look arrogant and foolish.

I think we’re seeing a real “Casey at the Bat” moment with Joementum. I think he honestly thought he was too popular to be touched. Guess he can talk about that in his memoirs after November.

GrandmaJ -
at least you are not alone

What Teddy said @69….LMAO!
I can’t wait!

JANE YOU ARE DOING AN AMAZING THING FOR ALL OF US! WE GET TO KNOW THE REAL FACTS ON THE GROUND!

I seem always check in here when it’s Lieberman time— I’ll check back later.

Bargain Countertenor,

I agree. As I said in the last thread, so far an international force is just talk. Several European nations have expressed interest but that’s far from a commitment. So far there is no concrete plan, the numbers being mentioned are made up, the mission is unclear, no one has said who will pay for it, and its reception by Hezbollah is dubious. I just don’t see many European countries sending troops into anything like a hostile situation. Their publics wouldn’t stand for it and their militaries can’t accomplish it. As for an American presence, I suppose we could find the troops from all those nonexistent reserves that we haven’t bothered to send to Iraq.

Y’all don’t know by now – do NOT question authourity wrt Prez. not only b/c “We undermine…at our peril…” and unpatriotic and all that, but because you’ll end up with a headache b/c questions are ignored, not addressed, not considered,:”Who could have imagined”"
—–
All about questiion wrt our troops ‘positiion’ wrt multiple ’suspects’ in the Lebonese theatre.

Hope Joe has a big family, cause I don’t know who else would be interested in Joe’s Memoirs of a WATB.

Teddy — the mighty FDL editors were originally planning to send Jane to Tyre in Southern Lebanon to cover new archeological discoveries but she thought it’d be boring there so she asked for the CT assignment…

Bargain Countertenor at 1:30 pm – You make a well-reasoned and persuasive argument. Unfortunately, that is not how W thinks or works. Most people with even a bit of research into the problem saw the prospect of going into Iraq as a horrible dilemma that would result in chaos and worse before we went in. Sadly, this has come to pass. No amount of reason will get in the way of the neocon agenda. We are watching unfold before our very eyes, and we don’t know the half of it.

Stephen,

Sorry, I wasn’t clear about what I was saying.

This idea is SUCH a nonstarter that I’m amazed anyone’s bothering to float it.

BC

GJ — Hi! We are all FDL WATBs now.

One tip I’ll pass along that made my outage seem shorter, although your mileage may vary: I logged out of Safari, restarted my mac (just to clear out whatever made the mess) and then all was well. Perhaps none of this helped, but it gave the mac something to do while I loaded the dishwasher….

Great to see you, hope you are well!

“I almost shit my pants!” Did that really have to go out like that?
Talk to CTBob, he said that, because of the heat he was getting from Joe’s goon squad. He was scared for his physical safety.

“But nothing of the sort appeared on this blog because, it seems, the only people who went were you and Spazeboy who were recognized and denied admission. It would’ve helped to have arranged to have someone who could get in and write something informative about it.”
Oh, I get it, it’s Jane’s and spazeboys fault, because Joe’s thugs had their pictures at every entrance and were told to refuse them entrance even though they had tickets and picture ID.
Pardon me, but I’m not understanding how that is Jane’s and spazeboy’s fault.

“All in all, FDL’s coverage of the Connecticut primary doesn’t really seem worth sending you up there. There hasn’t been that much informative that you’ve written on the race.”
Which of Jane’s “daily Ned” articles didn’t you like? How about the day NARAL and PP both endorsed Joe? Did you like those posts? How about when the latest polls came out showing that no one cared what NARAL and PP thought, Ned has the lead?
What about today’s post, about Joe ignoring requests from his constituents serving in the occupation of Afghanistan. You figure you’re going to find that on the WaPo or the New York Times first?

nice fisking of the concerned one, John Casper!

OT – Here comes the Iran war. Rawstory has up that Bush is planning to send troops to Lebanon (U.S. Generals are opposed- indeed in shock). Britain and others are refusing because they know Hezbollah has broad support in the Shite communities. So we go in (few Americans and no Congressperson will oppose going in to support Israel in the battle against terrorism), and the troops will get shot or bombed, and we will have to respond by attacking Syria and/or Iran. WWIII will really be in play. Yet not to do something will mean 100s more innocents dead in Lebanon.To hear it from some progressive radio people (Franken and Ed Schulz) those Americans who say anything against Israeli’s current military acts or past violence are nuts, anti-Semitic, or worse. This is truly crazy.

Kinda OT but,

I was in a discussion with a lady at the grocery store about my cat. You see, I name my cats after former presidents. I’ve had a

Kennedy
Eisenhower
Reagan
and currently have a
Nixon (Nikki)

I name my cats based on their personality, so I am waiting for a real smart promiscuous one to name Clinton (the highest honor).

As I am telling my story, I also mention that if I get a real stupid cat, I guess it’s name would have to be Bush! This statement caused immediate discomfort in her face and she quickly quipped that hmmmmmmph, you must be a Democrat that hates our country and hates our President.

I quickly shot back and asked her to name one good thing that has been accomplished by the current administration in the past 5 yrs.

In typical Republican fashion, she called my an asshole and said I was ruining America.

As, I left the store and noticed her car, she had an O’Reilly sticker, a Rush sticker and a Bush/Cheney ‘04 sticker. And the car she was driving….a 12 year old Chrysler Mini-van. Such fools!

I have never been the only Democrat in a Republican neighborhood….I am looking forward to going door to door. Talk to me ROOTZ PROJECT

That was ‘angie’s’ question re: US troops peacekeeping Lebanon.
—–
GrandmaJ – I went 8 hrs yesterday. Major jitters.
Ended up ‘clearing cache’ for solution to local prob.

that boundary between Turkey and Lebanon is still under dispute so Turkish troops wouldnt be particularly welcome in sovereign Lebanon. Some fools have suggested French forces. Considering Lebanon used to be a French colony, having French troops return to subdue the Lebanese Hezbollah wouldn’t be good optics.

Day two-
John Casper hits the ball out of the park again

Bargain Countertenor says:
July 26th, 2006 at 1:49 pm

Your comments were fine; I perceived your intent. Please look upthread at meta’s reply at 1:49 to your comments.

TeddySF — I am O.K. I have stopped whining especially when I knew someone else had the problem. Why do I always assume I did something baaaaad and it was all my fault. Patience is the name of the day but I am afeared that my quota is gone after watching T.V. for an hour.

And lotus – if you are here, just erase my whiney email about being lost in the toobz. I needed to cry on someone’s shoulder and yours was the only email # I could remember. Sorry.

Did anyone catch Hendrik Hertzberg on Lieberman in a recent New Yorker (Talk of the Town)? Can’t find it online. He reminded us how Joe “It’s all about me” Lieberman’s running for re-election for the Senate in 2000 while on the presidential ticket undermined Democrats’ chances to wield power whether or not Gore won. I’ll excerpt it later fom home.

There’s a lot to learn about the concerned under-bridgers in that k-52 comment, actually, with regard to strategy and tactics. I found myself sucked right into agreement, because I didn’t like the end of CT-Bob’s video, either, and thought it could have been easily edited out. For family consumption, if you will.

But watching the rest of the comment go off the rails, as you pointed out, John Casper, was instructive. This is how Rover trains ‘em, methinks….

Jane, our trusty FDL correspondent, sent on assignment using millions of the billions of dollars that this blog makes to go ‘clowning’ around in CT– tut-tut.

kaleidescope – as I hope you might surmise over the past several months, this is a non-traditional medium. The old model got tossed out with the bathwater. This is what resistance to an unrelenting assault on lies looks like. CT Bob is a human expressing what it felt like to get mixed up in Joe’s hustle and flow. Jane is writing what she sees, and I think she’s been doing an outstanding job. I applaud her and everyone here every chance I get.
This place is changing every day. There are many facets to what this community is about. Check it out. Revel in it.

Teddy,

Sugar, I was thing just the same thing. I hope i have some popcorn ready when it comes time to watch the smackdown.

Jane:

This amazing letter, coupled with the comments near the top of the thread, to wit, “Joe gets his weapons expertise from where?” and the comment about Joes multiple deferrments combne to really describe the essence of the man in a way no ad hominum attck ever could.

This soldiers letter should get as much play as possible over the next two weeks. Not just because it links leiberman to the war, but because it vividly describes the essential flaw thta makes him unfit to continue in office– the total lack of empathy.

Like the Carville war room poster that read “It’s the economy stupid”

I think our virtual war room needs a poster that reminds us that the reason the thugs need to be thrown out

“It’s the hypocracy, stoopid!”

This is by far the most disturbing post I have seen about Lieberman. I’m quickly losing my idealistic/naive view of this country. It really might be going down the tubes… (and not the internet tubes).

kaleidescope, Do you think there is a race going on somewhere in the country right now that is more important to the direction of our party than CT senate primary? I don’t. Do you think a lot of Jane’s 70k /day readers have contributed to Ned’s campaign? I do. Do you think bloggers answer to anyone where they go or what they write about? I don’t. There are hundreds of thousands of other channels on the tubes – perhaps you should watch one of them.

This is it, punaise:

The speech also earned Lieberman his place on the 2000 ticket, as a way for Al Gore to distance himself from Clinton’s squalor. Lieberman’s seat was up that year, and he decided to run simultaneously for senator and Vice-President. Lyndon Johnson had taken out a similar insurance policy forty years earlier, but there was a difference. The governor of Texas in 1960 was a Democrat, so when Johnson resigned his Senate seat after the election a Democrat was appointed to replace him. The governor of Connecticut in 2000 was a Republican. If Lieberman had made way for the state’s popular Democratic attorney general, Richard Blumenthal, who would have won easily, and if the Supreme Court had allowed Gore to take office, then the new Senate would have split 50-50, with Vice-President Lieberman breaking the tie in favor of the Democrats. But, by insisting on having it both ways, Lieberman single-handedly guaranteed that the new Senate would be Republican—either by a 51-49 margin under a Gore Administration or (as it turned out) by the tie-breaking vote of Vice-President Dick Cheney. This was more than just routine political expediency. It was what was known that year as a character issue.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/….._hertzberg

I have sent the DKos diary link to my contact in the Boxer PAC staff. Seeing it might jar Senator Boxer, and her loyal staff, into thinking what August Ninth might look like.

do you think that k-52 might have been a hit-and-run?

or is k-52 sitting back and considering our responses?

hi op!

pow wow @ 40

I have a friend deployed in Iraq. AFAIK the Air Force has been operating as ground troops for a while. Here’s an exerpt from friend’s letter of last week:

“We did have another casualty. That makes seven. This one actually made the news. An idiot Air Force guy decided to have a quick draw contest with his buddy in their room, forgetting that his rifle had a bullet in it. I’m mad because this death was preventable. Ever since we got here, the Air Force has been responsible for 90% of accidental weapons discharges on the base. The AF leadership here has failed the Airmen by not making sure that weapons discipline is practiced.”

Hi TSF, hope I won’t get fired for posting at 4:59 ET lol.

Yeah, I thought Chip Reid’s NBC coverage of the Connecticut primary, including BigDog’s and Boxer’s visits — which, even on Countdown as I recall, did not even MENTION Boxer’s name!! — were far superior to the dilettantish, poodle-fetish, spazeboy-centric coverage I get here.

Imagine Jane being barred from the Clinton event and not having a backup plan. Clearly she’s spending (whose?) money unwisely….

I get it now, The Kool-Aid makes you see shit,like acid. Colors and stuff.

TSF, if’n I do get fired, I’ll come work for Ned fulltime. Oh, wait, sorry, I’m already committed to Eric Massa.

lotus…63

You have prodded me. Pakistan? Interesting. I had all but forgotten those guys. And their shifty dictator prez, Pervez.

Speaking as a soldier, and a combat vet (OIF-1), and a unit armorer, I have to say that the “advantages” of the M-4 in comparison to the M-16 are questionable.

I have 14 years in the army, and some more than 30 years of shooting. The M-4 is shorter, and “handier” but the shorter barrel means it’s ballistics are decidely different from that of the M-16.

Because the barrel is shorter the powder hasn’t completely burned and the muzzle velocity is lower. This overcomes one of the “problems” with the M-16. Becuase all the 5.56 ammunition in the US Army is the same (to allow for easier supply) the M-16 is optimized for the same high-pressure and velocity of the Squad Automatic Weapon.

One of the side effects is that a round which merely strikes soft tissues may fail to, immediately, incapacitate someone it hits, esp. at close ranges (this was one of the problems in the street figts in Mogadishu, people would be shot, fatally, with a burst of fire, and still fight for a couple of minutes before shock set in).

The M-4 does not have that problem, but the lack of high initial velocity leads to a rapid diminuition of velocity (and impact energy) at longer ranges (beyond about 200m).

At the longer ranges this can lead to the round having far less impact, and even minimal armor can lead to what should have been incapicitating, or lethal wounds, being, at best, minor.

On a number of levels this is unacceptable.

The real answer is the two weapons are best suited for different functions, but if I were looking to outifit a unit with only one of them, the only reason to go with the M-4 is that the units in question are only going to be engaged in short range (e.g. urban) combat, or will only be engaged in combat as a side effect of circumstance; and the handiness of the weapon outweighs the drawbacks (it is the best option for transport troops, because it’s quicker to get to/use from the inside of a vehicle.

For an infantry unit, honestly, I would reccomend the M-16.

Terry Karney
SSG CA ARNG

with my awesome magical powers, I could have nuked k-52s comment but it was such a juicy, low-hanging target for Jane to give a mighty whack at. It’ll be tres amusant !

I just watched Clinton’s speech in Waterbury.

Man, can that guy speechify. Bush is such an embarrasment.

It was interesting how he kept emphasizing the word “Democrat.” It was his record he kept citing, not Joe’s. He made it very clear that he was doing this ’cause Joe is an old friend. That this was about defeating Rethugs in DC. And to me that is the clincher. If Joe loses this primary, there is no way that Joe will be able to credibly run as an independent. It felt like Clinton was saying, vote for Joe so that there is a Dem in DC. And that is it. I still think that there has been some heavy back-stage brokering; if Ned wins, Joe must step aside and endorse him. Note how Clinton kept emphasizing that Dems can disagree on certain things, but they stick together when it counts (or something like that).

He sucked on the war part — but then, Hil isn’t much better than Joe in that regard.

ot – coulter-geist

http://www.editorandpublisher……1002912730

I just got home to my messages and amazing == Bill Clinton called me! He told me that I should vote for Joe. I’ll transcribe if anyone is interested.

*ilson46201 #88

Turkey and Lebanon have no common land border. Syria at one time laid claim to Alexandretta (Iskenderun) but after Turkey moved troops to the border the Syrians backed off the claim. Water rights as Turkey builds big dams are a concern for both Syria and Iraq.

GrandmaJ, them toobz is still holding onto your wet hanky, I guess, cuz it’s not here yet. Prolly be dry by the time it shows. ((((HUG))))

*ilson, Turkey and Lebanon don’t HAVE a border (whole buncha Syria in the way).

punaise, it’s the July 24 NYer, here.

Ah, GrandmaJ, there you are — yes’m, all nice and dry!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215608.stm

High death toll in Gaza clashes

Israeli military attacks in the Gaza Strip have killed 23 Palestinians, including several children, witnesses and medical sources say.

At least 11 militants were among the dead, but many civilians were also killed, and about 70 people were hurt.

The raids come amid Israeli efforts to release a soldier captured by Palestinian militants last month.

About 140 Palestinians and one Israeli soldier have been killed since Israel launched its offensive.

The attacks on Gaza have been overshadowed by fierce clashes between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon.

kirby, do tell!

ifthethunderdontgetya & lotus – thanks! you *guys* are the best….

(still puzzled why I can’t find it at tnewyorker.com)

ember, that thing was on some show and accused Bill Clinton of being a latent homosexual.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200607260007

she’ll be on tweety tomorrow to further charm ‘reality’ show junkies in america. the tweet just called her ‘inimitable’ and will feature the ‘outdoor ann c.’ on the plaza. ( I did not know she could handle outdoor chats during sunlight hours.)

about Lebanon, Syria, Turkey and borders — it is indeed Syria that is on the north of Lebanon — it’s Syria and Turkey that have a dispute over the Hatay Province (which contains Antioch)

Okay gang, kaleidescope has been a reader for a while and, while I disagree with the assessment of the CT coverage, s/he has a right to express how s/he is feeling about it. Let’s not all jump on the snark bandwagon at once because (a) if Jane is offended, she is MORE than equipped to handle it and (b) really, a dogpile can become unseemly.

That said, it is lovely to know that so many people have our backs while we are working on other articles or — as in my case — snagging a much needed nap and then getting dinner started while while watching Ina Garton on FoodNetwork. You guys are such sweeties to care about us.

But I do want to make one point abundantly clear: the only amount of money that Jane and I take in from blogging comes from the website — either from our ads, which are sometimes plentiful, sometimes nonexistent; donations; and the occasional Amazon sales. And that’s it. We don’t have some magical benefactor (well, other than Jane, who is paying ALL of her expenses herself in CT!) and, speaking for me alone, I could be earning a helluva lot more money at my usual billable rate (and some weeks, I could really use it, let me tell you!). But we don’t do this for the moolah, we do it because we think it needs doing.

As I said earlier in the week, there are a bazillion other blogs out there to read if you aren’t happy with what we are covering. We will never be all things to all people — we’re just working our asses off to be what we can, when and where we can, and have a little life around the edges — because we want our country back. It’s just that simple.

Now, back to stringing my green beans…

Sweeet snark in that editorial, eh, ember 110? Thanks for that link.

Thanks Terry at 2:04.

OT Do you see military objectives in Iraq or Afganistan?
Do you support the occupation?

Terry Carney –

As you’ve noted, the M4 is an urban assault weapon, which coincidentally is precisely the type of warfare being waged. I don’t think they’re seeing a lot of open-terrain engagements.

Well. My 113 set a standard of redundancy that will abide in my mind.

DeanFan84 @ 18:
Hope the Big Dog got it in writing.

Christy — and just what is wrong with a dogpile? My 4 pitbabies are salivating for your answer …

Can we start a NO U.S. TROOPS IN LEBANON campaign immediately? We tried the Lebanon thing not so long ago and had to crawl home with tail between legs. OF COURSE we would be there fighting on behalf of (instead of?) Israel. Peacekeeping my butt.

I can feel which way the wind is blowing. It’s all AIPAC all the time, now with rallies to whip up enthusiasm for joining in another country’s war.

lotus -sure enuf

Ann Coulter is a latent thinker.

Tucker reporting that they went to a place in Lebanon that was clearly controlled by Hizb. because they had pictures of the Ayatollah and Nasrallah strung up over the streets. Oh, and they looked western– baseball hats, western shoes, no long beards, etc.

What a wanker. Pictures strung up over rubble clearly under control of Hizb. and what a stereotype– ooooh, they look like us.

dope.

If Lamont pulls this off, it’s going to turn the dynamics of the Democratic Party upside down. The DLC/DSSC establishment types will have lost a lot of credibility, and we the people out here in the provinces will be even more motivated to dump the existing hierarchy and bring progressive values to the fore.

If we can win this one, the next one will be a lot easier.

Just back from work – ned Lamont should use this letter in an ad campaign…

Turkey and Lebanon don’t HAVE a border

Syriasly?

Christy @ 119 — could you let Jane know I just put a little something in the PayPal tip jar so she and spazeboy can go have a beer or a whatever on me? It might even be enough for a half a tank of gas, ha!

I am loving the coverage from CT, and especially the candid camera events.

I agree cosmo.
If Ned just wins the primary it has the potential to pull the entire political landscape a little closer to the center. That in turn can accelerate a pullout from Iraq and Afghanistan. That in turn could defuse some of the tension around Israel.

Those are a lot of “ifs,” but the potential importance of this primary vote cannot be overestimated.

it was that great military strategist, Commander-in-Chief Ronald Reagan, who sent troops into Lebanon last time and he promptly withdrew them after that horrible car-bombing. Would George Bush sully the memory of the Sainted Ronald Reagan by doing the same stupid thing?

CHS, if I had any more than a pot to pee in, you’d be in TALL cotton, love.

In Haaretz, there are several articles that indicate that it wasn’t only Hezbollah that miscalculated. They note that talk of destroying Hezbollah has changed to weakening it and this itself may be a figleaf for appearing to weaken it. In addition, the rejection of an international force has been replaced by a call for a “robust” international presence. There is also the fear that there was not adequate planning or political strategy and that Israel may be sucked into another Lebanese quagmire as generals try to live up to their initially stated goals through greater use of force and deeper penetration into Lebanon. There is already talk that Olmert and Peretz may be likely casualties if expectations raised by them are not met.

Re: Turkish troops

Aren’t they lining up on the Iraq border ready to make some noise if The Honorable S. Hadley doesn’t come through on his promise that a threeway will make the PKK situation go away?

TC/2:04 Tom/2:21
Thanks both.

OT – Please tell me the second coming of the Reagan administration isn’t going to send US troops to Lebanon. (Or anywhere, for that matter.) I remember what happened the last time US troops were in Lebanon in a peace keeping role, even if the idiots in the Bush admin who were in Reagan’s admin at the time don’t, and I certainly don’t trust that they won’t screw everything up. Again.

Ina Garton…she’s great.

Sometimes I pick up little cooking tips from these cooking shows. Like the other day I heard that popping limes or lemons in the wave for 12-15 secs. makes them juice better. Know what? It works.

punaise says: “Turkey and Lebanon don’t HAVE a border”
“Syriasly?”

July 26th, 2006 at 2:26 pm

At least (from a geographical perspective) they’re not between Iraq and a hard place.

Great catch *ilson, I had forgotten about that.
The Beirut Memorial

The Big Dog comes clean: he is a Little Terrier, at last we know. Anyone who grovels in the dust to support Libermann, the way Mr. Clinton does despite the big smile and fleshy embrace, is doing exactly that: groveling in the dust. Let’s dump the Clintons; send them back to Arkansas, which knows them like no other. The Democratic Party represents and deserves something, much better than this craven, self-serving Mr. Clinton and his self-serving, craven wife. May Ned Lamont win!

I love the Barefoot Contessa– she smiles and enjoys what she does so much– and has that joy of entertaining that you know is real.

PS I lovvvvvve her house and garden.

egregious at 125:

Yes! Can we start rallying? If not, the ne0-cons will get themselves the war they so badly have wanted…

Having fired both types, the M16 is superior for general purpose use because of its longer barrel and sturdier stock. Even when extended, the stock on the M4 is too short unless you’re a munchkin.

The are basically the same rifle. Shoot the same bullets, use the same magazines, have all the same operating switches and controls in all the same spots, break down for cleaning the same, etc.

big thanks from me to Jane, Christy, & the other front-pagers here. I’m impressed by your reporting and dedication! You guys keep me informed ‘on the sly spin’.

Tho’ I admit you’re usually my 2nd link of the evening – I like to check out Froomkin first.

My dear Quentin, thanks for opening that window and allowing a very refreshing breeze in.

Quentin….Quentin….
Naw, couldn’t be……

115 Teddy SanFran,
Here’s the transcript of the call I got today from Bill Clinton. The editing is so amateur it’s really annoying.
>>>>>>>>
Soothing female operator voice:
Hello, this is a message from President Bill Clinton

Clinton voice:
I’m proud that I helped Joe Lieberman in 1970
Proud that we’ve been friends all these years
Proud of his three terms in the Senate
[obvious edit]
He has been one of the leaders in the congress
[obvious edit]
I want him elected because he understands and cares about health care [edit]
I want him elected for the economy [edit] for national security [edit]
For [edit] our children and grandchildren from violence (sic)

Clinton voice raises:
Go out and elect Joe Lieberman, he’s earned it, he’s been a good democrat, he’s a good man
and he’ll do you proud!

Thank you and God Bless you all!!!

Male voice:
Paid for and authorized by friends of Joe Lieberman “double-u, double-u, double-u Joe two thousand six dot com

CHS: Speak for yourself. I’m in this for the money.

And by the way, I really appreciate the assignment to Hawaii to cover the Akaka-Case primary. I’ll be filing on that one very soon.

That Pach, he funny.

you can say that again!

Jane,

Great Hair Raising photo of Joe you might want to steal over at Bag news:

http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/

angie…144

Yep.

It’s Karney.

Afghanistan isn’t all that urban, not where the troops are being engaged. Secondly, unless all they are facing is urban/close quarters, then the better weapon, all-around, is the 16.

The fact of the matter is the choice is one of appeal. People look at the M-4 and they think it sexy. They confuse it’s looks and it’s handling with overall value.

Given a preference, I’d take the M-14, but the fact of the matter is the M-16 is, for modern warfare, the better platform (lighter, easier to control, to train, and more ammo can be carried) despite the fundamental flaws of the system (lack of gas piston, tendency to jamming as a result, cross between sloppy lock-up [which affects accuracy, esp. at longer ranges {this is a different problem with the M-4, it is inherently less accurate}] and tight clearances; leading to it being finicky).

There is no perfect system (though the British SA-80A2, if the charging lever were on the left, instead of the right, would probably be the apotheosis of the M-16 family of weapons), but all in all, I still think the M-16 a better combat weapon than the M-4.

This probably puts me in the minority, as the 16 lacks sex appeal.

John Caspar. I can’t answer those questions.

If you stoll by my blog you may draw your own conclusions.

TK

its done been used !

Back to the Clinton stumping for Lieberman — or is the whole point that Ds stand up for Ds, and support the winner of primaries, even if you, Joe, don’t like the outcome? I think Clinton’s visit puts a stake in Lieberman’s throat WRT running independent.

Clinton is now free to come back and campaign for Lamont to keep the seat D, try to pick up 2 congressional seats and shut Joe out for being disloyal to the party.

Local news coverage of the big event was pretty bland — big local story trumped it — fatal crash of dumptruck filled with crushed stone careened down a long hill, no brakes, smashed into the other lane of cars morning rush, waiting for the light to turn green — deaths and horrible, disabling injuries — happened a year ago and the truck company owner in court — led every newscast.

I tell you, people who are not fed up with Joe do not seem to even know this election is on radar. Good for we rabble-rousers for change.

If this guy is kicking down doors, then he needs a shotgun or MP5.

The cockatoo named Joe.

Grandma at 70, we are all WATB about FDL. LOL

John C – thank you for the Beruit Memorial link
There is a link there to an excerpt from Powell’s book as well.

http://www.beirut-memorial.org/history/powell.html

That read makes you shake your head over where we are now in Iraq. Euphemisms, no clear mission other than serving as a “presence” offsetting powderkegs, etc. It makes you wonder what he was thinking and it certainly explains why he left this administration.

GrandmaJ #70,
I know the symptoms you describe. FDL has kept me from having to buy a new teevee every week for throwing things at it in disgust.
Hope you are doing better now that the keys are working again.

“If you stroll by my blog you may draw your own conclusions.”
I did Terry, very briefly, what I saw I liked. I thought you made excellent points about MAD and especially Pakistan.
If you are right, if we’ve got soldiers in the field, who don’t understand their weapons and or the tactical issues, it’s a very serious problem.

lotus

The cockatoo named Joe.

cocka-toodle-oo

Well, of all the things I never expected to be schooled on today, I guess the British SA-80A2’s charging lever might be right up there. But that’s the beautiest beauty of this beautiful place, no? No telling what you’ll get graduate-level instruction in next . . .

I can attest to getting formulated statements like that…..which our CT. soldier received ……….from Lieberman!

If I received any response at all, it was so off-based, I threw it immediately in the TRASH!

I am so greatfull we have Ned Lamont as a challenger & this granny just got my 18 year old grand-daughter & her friend registered today as democrats. They are excited and looking forwaard to casting their votes for Ned on August 8th.

Thanks for all your help FDLakers!

JCasper– Articulate and complete. h/t

And not only THAT, Terry Karney, but you just demonstrated the most adroit deployment of (…[…{…}…]…) I’ve ever seen anywhere!

Respect.

Magi, you are one lucky duck. All eyes are on CT and I hope you do a little hollaring and jumping for joy when you step out of that voting booth because we are about to watch you people make history. I’m so totally green with envy. Throw the Bums Out!

I agree Mary at 2:51. Dems have to hammer on this, it’s just ignoring the Powell Doctrine. It’s about the language they use. If Dems allow Rove to paint them as “surrender monkies,” shame on them. If we apply military expertise to the situation, poople can understand where Dems are coming from. It’s not weak on national security, it’s intelligent on national security.

OT Hope the shoer did a good job.

Remember the wax lips we had as kids. They’d be nice to wear at Lieberman events.

kirby -
“I tell you, people who are not fed up with Joe do not seem to even know this election is on radar.”
—–
From this vantagepoint a short distance over MA border, it looks that way. GOTV/Turnout will tell. I think those FED UP will be turning out in greater numbers/percentages. jmho.

Oh. And YEAH! Good on the rabble-rousers, too!

Magi, amen to meta’s 168.

Wax Lips- 75 cents each

http://www.nostalgiccandy.com/….._Lips.html

wax lips and those fake long blood red nails, ccmask!

cc 173, I was just about to ask . . .

Wax lips and charging levers, lawd lawd.

Could it be that Ned will be ‘The Gift of the Magi’?

ccmask:

Remember the wax lips we had as kids. They’d be nice to wear at Lieberman events.

Well that tickled my funny bone. bwahahaha!

Terry Karney,

Thank you, for the informative disertations and for your service to this country and for the measured and helpful tone of your comments.

Hope to see more of them.

lotus 2:56 pm
Not to sound like Tommie Lee Jones in MEN IN BLACK, but you should have been here”
when DeadEye shot Harry Whittington. We had lots of lurking hunters. I mean guys (mostly but not exclusively) who knew firearms, and ammo, and, gun safety like Terry and the others today. I’m pretty sure that’s when immamentize delurked. They all jumped in and started educating us about bird shot versus buck shot…, effective range, fields of fire, basic safety, and all kinds of other stuff. We’d wait for the TM to print what had been on FDL days earlier.

I liked the wax lips, but I liked the candy cigarettes that puffed powdered sugar better.

Of course, now I just have the regular kind with real puffs.

skippy thread!

Thanks ember and Old Sow.

Request for someone to see if Adie really wanted I.D. visible at 85 previous thread.

lo@5-good Stern transcript!

I know, John C — I was here. But from charging levers to wax lips in 17 minutes flat — well, I NEVAH.

Terry,

Can you explain the dynamics of the weapon selection? I’m assuming that the differences between the two weapons are known to the soldiers as well.

Who makes the choice, and where would mr Halloran come into the picture? From your first post i more or less concluded that you believe that they were unhappy with the weapon they were given because they don’t understand the full benefits of the M-16. Is that accurate? How does this work? Is it possible the soldiers were first told they would be given M-4’s and then later received M-16s?

At what level is this choice made, and what voice does/should an individual soldier have?

thanks for your expertise

hmmm…on second thought, strike the O. Henry ref. Forgot plot line.
——
*islon – I was so serious about getting back into FDL yesterday I unleashed Terminal for a ‘Ping FDL’ commando mission. For just the second time. Other was also browser related (ate a ‘bad’ cookie.
—-
Lamont’s’ kids “Mr. Lamont” spot running just now on WFSB local news (CBS-3).
Go Ned!
—-
CCSU students entertain political CT primary candidates story airing now.
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Ned: incumbents comfy. Every six years punch clock. lose touch. Challenge incumbents.

He got the sound bite DOWN. Looked real SERIOUS.
—-
Now, Dodd shilling for Joe via endorsement ad.

Jane would be great with Howard Stern, wouldn’t she?

CCmask

I think the wax lips idea might do very nicely.

TV journalists need a visual to tell a story. the wax lips (especailly if most of the crowd wore them) lpus “the Kiss” float= nice tv visuals

wax lips, major lol.

Thanks Terry Kearney for bringing your perspective to FDL. If god is willing, my nephew will be reading here and posting as well (from Iraq).

Thanks Terry, and please don’t be a stranger at the ‘lake….

John C – shoer is a great guy and does a great job. I try hard to stay on his good side. *g*

TK’s site – interesting posts and comments. Worth the read.

I, for one, don’t mind arguing the relative merits of various small arms. This is as good a place as any, given the letter that heads this thread but I fear that we are mimicing No Jo when we do. Jo is rightly castigated for presuming to know what the soldier needs better than the man himself. I take him at his word that the M-4 is better for his situation than the M-16. None of us not there can say differently with any authority.

Hey, I have a case of Groucho glasses in my basement — used them when I worked in pediatrics. Maybe we will put them to good use…CT Bob?

“I know, John C — I was here.”
Were you lotuslander back then?
Don’t mean to get personal, but I had you coming aboard rather recently, sorry my mistake.

Lotus @ 168:

And not only THAT, Terry Karney, but you just demonstrated the most adroit deployment of (…[…{…}…]…) I’ve ever seen anywhere!

Grammar, Guns and Greek: just a few of the many reasons I love visiting Firedoglake. :-)

John C
FWIW anderson cooper has an interesting take on the news releases from hezbollah
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Program…..ollah.html

Also here is an interesting take on the “apparently deliberate” attacks on UN by IDF
Thought you might find these interesting

EDITED BY SITE OWNER

[You want to make accusations like that against a local soldier, you better bring some proof. Take your place in the moderation queue.]

Yes, John C, I was lotuslander until so many folks pruned my handle that I went with the flow (as any natcherl-born lotus must). And whaddya know, immediately punaise punaised me as ‘l’eau tousse [sp?] — so I knew it hadda be right with the Universe. Though EPU never opined.

sorry john c i forget the second link

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspo…..nival.html

GrandmaJ: How’s the diet?

I got a canned message to vote for Lieberman today too, but from a Julie. Wonder why they didn’t use the Clinton one for everyone.

J Casper @ 3:00 p.m. — intelligent on national security.

Bingo.

Nickel words. Smart on safety. Not reckless. Not stupid. Not dumbya.

Smart on national security. Smart on social security. Smart on energy security. Smart is the new kewl.

Kaleidescope -52

You need to get yourself a Burberry hat!

Jane has made them fashionable again but of course you knew that.

Oh, gotta go, don’t wanna be too late to FDL founder’s reply to your comment.

But please don’t fret that you may never hear from me again for truly, Scout’s Honor, I look forward to telling you what I really think.

Everyone — all WATB symptoms have subsided. As for keyboard — let’s just say eating while reading FDL can be fatal to said keyboards.

Interesting to see names I do not recognize coming to advise us on the benefits of the m-16. Yup, soldier, mind your leaders and shoot with the gun they give you – no complaints. SNARK I have no opinion on guns – hate the things.

I will take *ilson’s advice and shut the computer off for an hour and come back and try again.

lhp: TV journalists need a visual to tell a story. the wax lips (especailly if most of the crowd wore them) lpus “the Kiss” float= nice tv visuals

I totally agree. Picture a whole crowd wearing them and throwing chocolate kisses.

Gun nut, Please, spare us the not hating bush enough stuff. You are welcome here even if we don’t agree with you sometimes. It’s not about hating Bush enough. SOme of us are ALWAYS in the opposition when it comes to war and injustice.

Gun Nut – Your point of checking out the validity of the letter is a very good one. False letters that we have jumped on before have proved to be plants to delegitimize us.

And my snark about new posters I totally take back. Points being made about a subject I know NOTHING about is one where I should keep my trap tightly shut. Consider it shut on this topic.

And we do need to verify the letter. IMO and thanks Gun Nut for making a valid point.

Old Sow, I just know when I asked a question or made a comment that was too far to the right, bang! and that was all she wrote for me. Except for the Troll comments.

Anyway, I personally like the M4 more than the M16 but agree with Terry’s analysis of the advantages/drawbacks of each. Mine did fine dropping men at 150m range, the longest distance I hit anyone at, but the M16 would definitely do better out at 300m or more. The M4 is great for handling inside a vehicle where as an M16 gets kind of difficult.

I have to say today is the first time I read “fifth tour” and wonder how valid this particular letter would be on an issue as small as which gun a soldier would use. It’s not like he is claiming to be out of ammo. Possible WATB here, if it’s a real letter. Support our troops yes, but get them the hell out of there. We need to keep them out of Lebanon if at all possible.

I am a regular reader, but the depth of comment usually gets to much to keep up with, so it’s when the main text needs explication that I chime in.

To answer several questions, and apologies for not inidicating the asker:

Most soldiers don’t know the specific attibutes of the weapons they use, any more than most drivers are aware of the compression ratios and firing orders of the cars they drive. Horsepower and handling are what they care about.

Weapons selection is done at high levels (both for the army, and for units). My Guard unit got it’s M-16 A2s when we deployed, prior to that we had A1s. The A1 left any use (as a Basic Training weapon) in the Active Army shortly just as I left Basic in ‘93, so it was 11 years later that we got them.

A lot of people get together, discuss what the Army needs, what the doctrine and tactics require and then they decide what will fill those needs.

They draw up the requirements (caliber, max weight, range, capacity [usually a detachable magazine] rate of fire, safety requirements, mechanical stuff [what conditions the weapon much function under, barrel life, etc.] sights, etc.) and put it out for design and bid.

Then it’s submitted, and tested and selected.

Right now there are 4 rifles in the arsenal.

The M-16A2, the M-4, the M-14 (limited, IIRC, to infantry units, and only a few in a Brigade Combat Team), the M-21 (a .308 bolt action, for sniping). Units are assigned weapons based on their type. Combat Support units get M-16s, Line units get M-16s, or M-4s; State (for Guard units) or DA determines the Table of Organization and Equipment, which sets the weapons load out (rifles, grenade launchers, machine guns). Some units (infantry and MP) get shotguns as well, using 12 ga..

In some units (SF, some Rangers, snipers; sort of. The Barrett .50 is authorised for some units, and were I in a sniper team I would want an M-14 so as to have ammunition of one type for both weapons) there is choice, the limits vary from wide open for SF A teams, to lesser amounts (mostly at the commander level) for the other units, based on mission.

Guys who have less immediate support (like the Long Range Recon guys in Viet-nam) are allowed more choice, because more is riding on it, and the logistics of keeping them in supply is less.

Mr Halloran (though I am making inferrences) doesn’t really understand the nature of weapons, not at the nuts and bolts level. The M-4 has a better “look”. It seems more modern, can carry more bells and whistles.

At some level, that matters, The more confidence one has in the weapon, the more likely one is to use it well. Part of the reason the Marines kept the M-14 as long as they did is they just didn’t have faith in it.

TK

I’m happy to see FDL open up a little bit. I must say that a discussion on weapons captures my attention a lot more than the usual rehashing of how Rove, Limbaugh, VP Cheney, Brit Hume and Haliburton are taking over the world.

Well put Terry. I would also add that in the procurement process, there is always a big fight over money and priorities and that’s why the NG & Reserve end up fielded with new equipment after AD units instead of at the same time.

Put this info out, like you have here and I don’t think you will find many closed minds.
I know I am glad you did. Easy for many folks to see gun talk and fuzz over imo. Like I can do with legal speak. Most of all I am glad Gun Nut raised the questions over the letter.
Hope you both keep your chimes in.

Geez, lotus, don’t piss on the pot!

thanks for the info in your posts, TK.

Every weapon design (’scuse me, ‘weapons-system’ design) whether it’s a rifle, airplane or battleship, is a compromise between mobility, firepower & protection (availability and cost are factors, too). If you increase an infantryman’s protection with better body-armor, or by adding armored panels to his truck, the added weight decreases his mobility. If a man’s assault-rifle fires a heavier bullet (firepower), then his protection is compromised because he won’t be able to carry as many extra magazines for reloading. No weapon is perfect, & no weapon is always the best one in every possible situation.

GrandmaJ:

Snark away. Then again, since you admit to ignorance on the subject it might be more reasonable to actally take a look at what else I’ve written (on this subject, and others) before you go casting aspersions that I am a nose-ringed bull, led around willy-nilly.

Try a cut and past with this google string

“terry karney” torture

You might also go and look into my blog. That you’ve not noticed the half a dozen, or so, post I’ve made here isn’t my fault. I don’t see that, with my own name appended to my posts, my blog linked to it, and reasonable civility on my part (as well as some snark at Leiberman, whom I loathe and despise) that I ought to need to post more bona fides to convince the, self-admittedly, ignorant that I’m acting in good faith.

TK

GrandmaJ: Apology accepted, and I’m sorry for snipping back at you. All things considered I get a fair bit of grief in no small number of fora and I probably over-reacted.

Mea culpa.

TK

Second only to Gore’s 2000 Presidential campaign, Lieberman is running the worst campaign in history.

The worst Democratic Presidential campaign was Carter ‘80, followed very closely by Dukakis ‘88, with McGovern ‘72 and Stevenson ‘56 not far behind. Republicans would be pretty hard pressed to call Ford ‘76 or Nixon ‘60 good campaigns, but those were probably picnics compared to Landon ‘36 and Hoover ‘32–which is the actual worst campaign, ever. My grandfather was a precinct chair for the Dems in ‘32. He remembers feeling sorry for the Republicans that year. And he couldn’t stand Republicans.

John Casper,

I think Immanentize has been around longer than just the Cheney shooting. He’s one of my buds.

This is a perfect example of how arrogant and out of touch so many of these people are.
As mentioned previously by other posters… How can a public servant stateside possibly argue with a soldier in Afghanistan fighting the war about what they need and what type of arms suits them best??

Unfuckingbelievable! Actually I should say “Typical”.

Whether you guy’s win or not this contest between Holy Joe and Ned Lamont (I’m an Aussie in Australia) I think this fight will still send a very strong message to the Suits who believe their own bullshit.
Do the right thing or you will have to fight every inch of the way to keep your job!

Keep up the good work and thank you Jane, I enjoy this blog and your writing style immensely…

PS, Please don’t stop your cursing either, it’s the most entertaining part! I love it!

Actually Jane is right, it is hoity-toity and definitely not hoi-polloi.

It’s a term used by the English and means ‘haughty, snobbish’.

The hoi polloi are the last thing Joe would associate himself with.

Mabye I’m just deluding myself… but Joe liberman was at one point a presidental hopeful… but he is now alligning himslef with all of the sock puppet administrations that we have seen in 2k … so I guess I’m wondering if he is just another sock puppet leader that might have been, have the dice been rolled another way… Gore would have been pres and GW would have been the one calling foul.. but ultimatley it leads me to wonder what if all of the partisan in fighting we have seen in the US is just a ruse to make the masses in the US fight amongst eachother as much as possible to distract us from the real chess game that is now unfolding before us in the middle east… I dunno… mabye I’m crazy…. but perhaps the leaders of this country… wether they are republican or democrat are just playing out thier roles…. with an eye on a bigger picture… of course that would suggest that the insaine contingent of the bloggosphere are really right and it was all of us who were wrong… and damn.. that would suck

Christy at 119.
And I agree. Jane is showing a lot of us the way on this thing, and I for one am all for it.

I have known Colin Halloran for over 10 years and can vouch for the validity of his letter to the Town Times, our local paper.