Sorrow.

and fitz.

Kofi Annan now!

Amen and thanks, Taylor.

Ned!

When you drive to Syria to be safe, what does that say about the world?

Thank you, Taylor. This complex subject, played out in the most simplistic terms in the flickering blue light, needs more exposure like this. The Middle Easterners think we’re ALL fools for our lack of even basic understanding of their politics and cultures. Not all of us.

My heart hurts. I’m in a crappy mood all the time, high level of frustration with day-to-day stuff. How are you feeling?

…it’s all clear to me now.
Thanks, Taylor.

This is going exactly as the neo/theocons hope for.
Next up, some American deaths in Lebanon to get our military engaged. They’re already in place.
All-in Texas holdem is the only perceived winning strategy for bushco.

“What we get instead from George W. Bush is silence”

Bush is too busy give an unwanted backrub to get involved.

I work in a children’s hospital, surgical department. It’s bad enough when kids are sick from natural causes.

But when I see children wounded and unnecessarily suffering from a STUPID war it makes me ANGRY.

Make it stop.

EPU’d from below…

haaretz.com is reporting that Lebanon has said that Lebanon’s military will join the fighting if Israel launches a ground offensive. (no link, this is a ticker item at the top of the page)

I’m assuming this means that Lebanon will be fighting alongside Hezbollah, against the IDF.

Damn straight, no excuse for this crap.

Mommybrain and all my friends here @ FDL – I’m unbowed, unbroken and determined to communicate on this issue. I’ve been doing it every day. I’ve taken a lot of criticism from people, especially when I did the post on Bush’s religion getting in the way of his presidential duties. So be it. I can take whatever anyone can dish out. It’s minor in comparison.

The decider has decided to use what he learned in Katrina: The longer you wait to do the rescuing, the fewer people will need it.

Tell me how he is not EVIL, again.

thanks, great, clear explaination, and with good focus on role and consequences of Bush’s catastrophic non-involvement over his whole time in office. One question: Iran is not involved? It is Shia, and Saudi statement you quoted indicates that Saudi Arabia is worried about Iran and its role in the mess. I can’t find much mention of Iran in Juan Cole’s posts either, so I am puzzled.

This whole European trip disaster by w and condi’s reluctance to go to the region until the “time is right” because these things have a “rhythm” of their own makes me INSANE.

Iraq and Afghanistan are lost. Now Lebanon and Gaza will be lost. Israel got the green light from us with our shock and awe and complete disregard for international law. We have destroyed so much directly or by proxy. All these nascent “democracies” are filled with dead and despairing people. Rethugs are running from the Iraq war now, everybody neglected poor Afghanistan, now more destruction and collective punishment. I am in a mood most foul. We veto in the UN and that’s about it. So many UN resolutions have not been heeded, but we only point to the ones that we care about. There is no evenhandedness or justice.

We saw it once again at the G-8. This cowboy does not care about other people’s thoughts but is driven by his belief that God has given him the direction to follow and he is not going to listen to humans. 06 election can’t come quick enough…

Thank you Taylor. This is a crucial point regarding the shia/sunni dynamic. Thank you for avoiding the argument that “Israel has the right to defend herself.” If I hear it one more time, I think I’ll vomit. NO ONE thinks Israel is “defending” herself with this unconscionable, indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon. Fully ONE-THIRD of the victims of Israeli bombs in Lebanon are CHILDREN according to the United Nations. The situation is dire; 500,000 so far have been displaced; 300 innocent Lebanese dead; 500+ wounded. THIS IS ALL FOR 3 ISRAELI SOLDIERS? Of course not~Israel has admitted that their aims are much bigger: To take out Hezbollah. Only that isn’t what they and their surrogates said in the very beginning is it? So, just as with Iraq, where the goals have constantly changed, since prior to the invasion, so it is now with Israeli “defense” now emerging as a full-scale invasion of Lebanon to take out Hezbollah. And, just as with Iraq, the results are predictable: Increased support in the region for Hezbollah! Hezbollah cannot be taken out by WAR–which just feeds Hezbollah support in the surrounding region. It can only be eliminated by peace and prosperity–in the Palestinian Territories, in Lebanon, in Iran, in Israel–so that you starve the support for Hezbollah. You cannot bomb innocent people and say it is for PEACE. That has been Israel’s strategy for 5 decades. It is a failed policy; and it is a dangerous policy for Israel and Israelis.

Bombing water purification plants…you know, because terrorists drink water.

Meanwhile our “ally” won’t agree to even a temporary cease fire so we can get our citizens out of there.

Charging people to be evacuated from a war zone…I am actually having trouble finishing this sentence. Need to talk a walk and blow off some steam.

Contest, take each civilian target and come up with a plausible excuse for why it should have been bombed in Lebanon. Extra points for the Greek Orthodox Church!

the father of the two kids killed in Nazareth blames Israeli Prime Minister Olmert for destabilizing the region and starting the war …

Can’t help myself from saying this again, need to tell everyone that while BushCo is not 100% responsible for this, it has been his policy, if you want to call it that, to let them fight it out and we would deal with the winner. Said so himself. I guess he thought it would be like bar fight, and everything settled in a few hours. Good thing for everyone to remember with election coming up. A house of Congress that can demand accountability would make some difference.

Greek Orthodox Church? Easy! The steeple was a secret terrorist missile launch site!

next?

[ I’ll collect my sheckels later …]

Excellent points, Tennessean.

Re: Iran, this is my take: The neocons want us to connect it all with Iran. Certainly, Hezbollah gets $$ from Iran, as well as lots of support. But BushCo and Bill Kristol & Co. want the Americans to believe that Hezbollah can’t act independently, which is rubbish.

The fact of the matter is Bush, Kristol & Co. don’t know what they don’t know and won’t admit it. They’re playing the Iran – Syria card because it’s easy and on the surface, hoping we’ll all buy it. Don’t forget Karl Rove in all this. You decide where he fits.

Could Iran be involved; could Syria? Sure, but the key is, we don’t know. When you see liquid on the pavement at a gas station, you don’t light a match to see if it will blow.

Breaking News:

George W. Bush announces Special Envoy Michael “Brownie” Brown will head to the Middle East to negotiate a cease fire between Israel and Hizbollah.

Browns first official coments were: “I am a rock star. Should I wear my cordovans or my Buster Browns?”

-GSD

In that we may all need to resort to some head-clearing and mood elevation more often than usual during this thread, please let me repeat squirrel hiller’s excellent link belowthread just now

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..rge-b_n_25 475.html

and also request that whoever linked to that uplifting Downfalling Dubya thingy earlier today also haul it upstairs here again. Thanks.

OT – EFF’s Spying Case Moves Forward – Judge Denies Government’s Motion to Dismiss AT&T Case.

Taylor, I hope you’ll pardon my interruption here.

For those FDL legal beagles among us, perhaps one (or more) of you could peruse the Judge’s ruling on this case and help translate it for us poor ol’ non-legal types. *g*

You can find the ruling here:

http://www.eff.org/legal/cases…..ismiss.pdf

Now back to your regularly scheduled blogging. *g*

freefall Bush http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm

“It also means talking to people you don’t like and don’t trust.” Bush should know that first hand. The G-8 talked to him, didn’t they?

“What will it take for the president to engage?”
___________

His inaction is utterly deliberate.

He is a dry drunk…missing many brain cells….when you use as much mind altering drugs as he has guess what is true about his brain.

Hmmmm

Hezbollah, a polical party that is part of the Lebanese government, kills 8 and kidnaps 3 Israeli soldiers.

Republicans, a political party that is part of the United States government invades a country causing the death of at least 100,000 innocent civilians.

Quite a disparity I would say.

The Saudi/Hizbollah sub-text is interesting. It should not be construed as Saudi Arabia suddenly becoming more “reasonable” but rather nervousness regarding their own substantial Shia minority (who mainly live in the eastern oil-rich regions) who they have routinely persecuted and discriminated against . . . the Saudis are NOT happy about the rise of a Shia majority in Iraq, btw. Who have issued their own calls to support Hezbollah.

It’s not just the Turks:

According to the far right and its many friends in the media, India’s reaction to 7/11 should be as bloody as the Bush regime’s to 9/11, and as contemptuous of human rights considerations and norms of international conduct. They concede that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s government cannot quite emulate the example of mighty Washington. But India, they insist, must at least imitate the current offensive of Israel. link

I know a lot of you here aren’t to big on Wayne Madsen’s credibility, but pictures are fairly damning. Let me know what you all think.

July 20, 2006 – “WMR reported that the Israeli military was using poison gas on villages in south Lebanon. According to a former U.S. weapons expert who served in Iraq, the artillery shell in a photo taken in Lebanon (below) is a chemical weapon delivery device. It is being handled by an Israeli Defense Force soldier and Hebrew lettering can be clearly seen on the armored vehicle. Another chemical weapons shell of the same type can be seen lying on the ground to the right. It is not known what type of chemical is in the chemical canister, however, gas dropped by the Israelis in villages in southern Lebanon has resulted in severe vomiting among the civilian population.”

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

Listening to an NPR story in the NAACP speech. Biggest cheer when Bush said “I understand a lot of you don’t trust my party.”

#23: thanks for clarification on Iran. If you can’t find out and Juan Cole can’t find out, then I beleive that this is something hard to find out. I’ve already run across news info falsely asserting very specific facts about direct Iranian involvement, which I later saw was retracted by honest news organization (CBS, I think -report that Iranian officers directed some missle attacks.). So probably is a propaganda effort underway. Also read that those reports may be product of panicked Israeli officials who couldn’t believe what Hezbollah is capable of. A sickening mess. And most frightening to me is that I think you are right that BushCo have put themselves in position that they have no power to do anything constructive, even if they wanted to. US has lost so much influence.

Tell all your friends, what you see now is partly a result of conscious Bush foreign policy decision regarding Levant and Israeli-Palestinian conflict: do nothing, no matter how awful it gets.

Wayne Madsen’s credibility?

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Nah, I wouldn’t lean on him for anything credible.

Hoping to hear more from our outstanding attorneys about Judge Walker’s smackdown of the administration. State secrecy argument, not so much.

Wasn’t today looseheadprop’s big case? Hoping to hear about both that and the puppy.

Taylor, thanks so much for contributing to our understanding of this inordinately complex problem. Everthing helps. I’ve been watching Charlie Rose the last couple of nights and that has also pointed out just how complicated all of the politics are. My heart is heavy with pain and anger at yet another war commencing in this world.

Meanwhile, the US does NOT support a ceasefire. Congress has passed a resolution of support for Israel. Bush is silent. Condi is going there whenever she feels it will be of help. I cringe at the thought of what new level of madness is being bred by our tacit approval.

Linky Judge Rules Against Government in Spying Lawsuit in San Jose Mercury News.

Good, yes?

wesggpc’s votinglinks says
July 20th, 2006 at 2:55 pm

OK, then he is 99% responsible by NEVER being engaged since he took office. And so is the damned Congress, both houses, who just voted in support of Israel and her actions.

Tennessean– good post! We weren’t defending ourselves in Iraq or Afghanistan, either. Did we go after the terrorists? NO. We did our own share of “precision” collective punishment. Until we deal with the causes of the anger, we will fail. “Terror” is a method, not anything else. It was the tool of the poor, unarmed, desperate and oppressed. But it has morphed into something else and I am now a victim of terror from my own dern govt.

Three cheers to the EFF!

Re #35

Chimpy’s [acurrate] quote: “I understand that many African Americans distrust my political party.” Loud applause.

Taylor Marsh I believe you have a typo in your post: Hezbollah is Shia (Shiite), with support and backing from Iraq, Syria and the Iraqi government sitting inside the Green Zone.

I believe you meant to type Iran.

[Moderator: Thanks! — corrected…]

OT- There’s also:
http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/

Compared with the Corporate Media, I think Wayne Madsen has a lot of credibility. WM is occasionally correct, and the odds of his being correct is better than the MSM’s.

egregious & maddog — good, oh yes!

Btw – don’t you like the way Bush makes it “his party” that blacks don’t trust. Was it “The Republican Party” that West mentioned? Somehow, I thought it was a particular person he had in mind . . .

wesggpc’s votinglinks @ 3:12 pm (#36) – Last night on The NewsHour they had an ex-Israeli brigadier general and an ex-U.S. Army colonel discussing the Lebanon offensive. The Israeli claimed that they’d already destroyed this many missiles and that many Hezbollah facilities. The army colonel noted that there’s nothing you can trust about such reports early in a war. Those particular kinds of reports are nearly always inflated, and sometimes grossly so.

In general, that’s how we should treat just about any reports we see about this offensive at this point. If it isn’t of the “I saw this” or “my associate saw this” then there’s a good to excellent chance that it’s not true. Battles are confusing things, with duplicate and often contradictory reports, and with deliberate falsehood to be expected. So, yes, any claims that people who aren’t there make about such things should be treated with the utmost skepticism.

It’s sad that our news organizations don’t seem to know this. It’s certainly something that any student of military history should be aware of. if they’re not aware, they’re really lousy students.

“The scale of killings in the region, and their predictability, could engage the personal criminal responsibility of those involved, particularly those in a position of command and control,” said Louise Arbour, the high commissioner for human rights.

Ms. Arbour is a former justice of Canada’s Supreme Court who, as chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunals for Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, indicted the former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic.

“International humanitarian law is clear on the supreme obligations to protect civilians during hostilities,’’ she said. That same obligation exists, she added, in international criminal law, which defines war crimes and crimes against humanity.

“Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians,” she said in a statement released by her Geneva office. “Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged innocent civilians is unjustifiable.” link

I’d be wary of buying into the neo-con framing of this as an impending Shia/Sunni showdown. The rulers & elite in the Sunni-majority Arab states (which, btw, includes Syria) understand this level of aggression could well be turned on them should they fail to keep their own populations adequately under control.

As’ad AbuKhalil’s description of Lebanon probably cuts across borders:

My sister, who is a life-long activist in Lebanon, tells me that Sunni public opinion is split along class lines. Middle and Upper class Sunnis are opposed to Hizbullah, while “lower” class Sunnis are sympathetic to Hizbullah.

You bet, meta. CMike @ 44 – no, that’s not a typo; remember, there are Shia and Sunni fighting for power in Iraq.

As for Condi, what she’s doing is taking a trip to New York and the UN, which is the same thing as saying go shopping. We all know what the Bushies think of the UN, so whenever you hear that you know they’re just blowing smoke.

Frankly, Bush is doing to Condi what he did to Christie Todd Whitman: say he’s got a woman on board, look at me, without letting her do her job. That Condi is also an African American is doubly insulting, if you ask me.

My apologies in advance . I do not want you to think me uncaring about the people suffering needlessly. I CAN see something like this actually happening though.

Olmert: This is wonderful!

GW: Yeah, it’s a lotta fun iddnit?

Olmert: This shock and Awe stuff is great.

GW: Yeah, we really knocked the shit outta some ‘em aye-raquis wid that stuff.

Olmert: When do you think we should stop? I mean, it’s not too much is it?

GW: (inaudible) ‘ny more a dem sweet rolls? Shoot, themrgood.

Olmert: What should we do about your countrymen stuck in Lebanon?

GW: Whassat? C’mere, I wanna rub yer head.

Olmert: Oh, I’d like that. But what do you plan to do about it?

GW:MMMmmm. ‘Bout what?

Olmert: your people?

GW: Oh, that. They’s gonna take a cruise. (snicker)

Reason # 5472 why you shouldn’t believe everything you read on the internet … especially if freepers are allowed to edit

From wikipedia

Scholars differ when Hezbollah came to be a distinct entity. They do all agree that all members of Hezbollah are homosexuals

Whaaaaaat?

Boy, that’s a huge blanket of overstatement isn’t it? Chances are, some are gay, but to seemingly use gay as a pejorative, is totally demeaning to those who are gay.

Taylor

In your post, you have captured the essence of cowboy diplomacy.

I think the worst thing about all of this war is Bush’s childish reaction to it. And his televised smirks and the way he describes what is going on is the way it has been described to him by his whiggies.

When are the men in this country going to take charge?

… and of course, the Hezbollah are not known to be exactly gay-friendly.

Someone just edited that part out in wiki

Ya gotta love the whole Condi thing. The other day they were saying that they had to hold off for the opportune time for her to go to region, ’cause her visit “could not be seen to be a failure.”

In other words, sweep in after all the major bad shit is done, so you can pose and take credit for WHATEVER.

Condi’s job is simply to do what Colin’s was during the Jenin massacre (”Operation Defensive Shield”) — wander around ’til the Israelis are done with the latest installment of “excising” (Olmert. What Blair refered to the other day as “preparing the ground.” It’s not Bush’ incompetence; it’s policy.

Arcturus, I assure you this isn’t neocon framing. That said, I do fully appreciate what you’re saying. However, Iraq has unleashed ancient emotions, hatred and power struggles that have been kept in check for a very long time. The danger of the terrorists being allowed to take over humanitarian assistance, like Hezbollah is doing in Lebanon right now, because Siniora is being continually weakened, heightens the divide and conflicts. No need to panic at all, but awareness of this awakened reality is important.

It’s something to see, isn’t it, Titanyum?

quick work, John ! good for you !

Hamas was founded in part by the Muslim Brotherhood which is a theocratic revolutionary Egyptian group. The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood gave rise to the Egyptian Islamic Jihad. The former head of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad is Ayman al-Zawahiri who is the number 2 man in al-Qaeda.

Might I suggest these two Wiki links?

Taylor: it is the framing that the neo-cons want, for their own reasons. Like any good propaganda, it has a strong elemnt of undeniable truth. I’m just cautioning about adopting it as the onlu or main lens through which to view vents, esp. in contradiction to many many voices living in the Middle East today.

& let’s be more precise about our language. “Iraq” didn’t unleash sectarian strife; it was an American occupation that found it useful to exploit those tensions that did the unleashing.

Really nice summary, Taylor.

Wasn’t Men in Black with Will Smith, where they got the “real” news from the tabliods?

I think we have reached that point. I sure trust Wayne more than Fox of CNN.

I didn’t edit it *ilson.

But that’s all we need is for some fascist yahoo to inflame things further by using nonsensical pejoratives

Christy got notice on MSNBC web article:
__________

Not a ‘Sigma Chi kegger’
Many writers saw a sexist aspect to Bush’s back rub. “This isn’t a Sigma Chi kegger, it’s the G-8 Summit,” wrote blogger Christy Hardin Smith on Firedoglake.com. Bush was actually in Delta Kappa Epsilon…

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13960181/

I guess Willie was in “I Phelta Thi.”

hey, is today the day fdl’rs are meeting in branford?

I just got off work, would get there at about 9 oclock, how long will everyone be there?

remember folks — dont feed the trolls!

God put Moderators in the Blogosphere to do His Work: smiting the iniquitous !

No, Arcturus, the neocons want us to blame it on Iran and Syria, using some of the Arab League’s condemnation of Hezbollah for cover, while planning a larger war, beyond Iraq, which helped ratchet all this up in the first place.

Hey, my friend Pach, thanks.

It is hard to see that the United States once looked at as a nation to address situtations like these has become so diminished and obsolete in these matters with this Administration.

*ilson46201 @ 3:56 pm (#68) Oblivion is a fitting fate for people who can’t even make a point while they’re insulting folks they don’t know.

With all of this discussion going on about the ME on blogs everywhere, the NSA must be going nuts.

Let us not forget that violence begets violence. By killing innocents on both sides, all the attacking parties do is ramp it up a notch. Killing people does not EVER stop people killing each other. I saw a picture of a Lebanese toddler lying dead in a field and I immediately thought of my own two year old lying asleep taking a nap. I remember having a conversation with my husband (who is going to Iraq in a little more than three weeks) about war a little while back. He said something along the lines of if anybody harmed his kids he would not rest until he hurt those who hurt his family. I then asked him if those feelings were totally understandable for those who were trying to live life in a war zone? Did he see how it just continues to escalate? Why wouldn’t a Lebanese or a Palestinian or an Israeli or an Iraqi parent feel exactly the same way? Violence begets violence. Jesus taught that. I wonder why so many evangelicals only think Jesus is important if one “believes” in him but does not find it important to actually follow his teachings? I apologize for the rambling of this comment, but I am quite distraught learning of all the suffering human beings are inflicting on one another.

meta — the NSA loves times like this when everybody is expressing themselves freely about important matters — that way they can data-mine to see who is being naughty and who is being nice !

making a list and checking it twice, and all that …

I find myself in agreement witn Tbogg in that my sympathy for Israel is limited. A lot of this is just their share of unintended blowback. In a sense both Hamas and Hezbolla are both Israel’s creations due to their own actions. Oppress people long enough and you shouldn’t be surprised when people end up hating you. They seriously need to look to their own behaviour. To me, at least, there is not a great deal of difference between Gaza and the Warsaw gettho.

Americablog:

http://americablog.blogspot.co…..llege.html

Homeland Security Spying on US College Kids, Putting Their Names in Foreign Terrorist Database, Simply Because They’re Protesting Military Recruiters — by John in DC – 7/19/2006 10:34:00 PM

Now they’re spying on American college kids and literally treating them as terrorists, going so far as putting their names in a database that tracks foreign terrorists. Had enough yet?

OT – Judge Walker. It’s a 72 pp opinion, so it’s going to take a bit to digest. On a quickie skim through though – here’s some highlights.

First, this is a case against AT&T et al, not NSA, although gov filed to intervene and that’s how state secrets were raised. The case raises all the good grounds – not just statutory FISA and Electronic Communications Privacy Act, but Constitutional grounds as well.

Judge had already tried to keep some options open for Gov, by dangling whether or not the case could go forward with just the public info and not delving more — Gov said, oh my NO and since you HAVE to delve and the delving is secret stuff, you’ll have to dismiss.

Judge had ruled that he probably did have to delve some, based on the submissions, but he didn’t buy originally that he couldn’t EVEN delve in camera (which Gov argued) so he had required in camera submissions. This was his follow up ruling to that review.

He spends a long time with state secrets, before shooting it down, and I want to really read that part closely. But he tackles first whether or not it is disingenous (my word) for gov to claim “secret” with all the public reports and the Klein and Marcus declarations filed and there is a lot more, too, all of which sounds like Plaintiffs are not going to come out on top, until . . .

. . . until he gets to “But no case dismissed because its “very subject matter” was a state secret involved ongoing, widespread violations of individual constitutional rights, as plaintiffs allege here.”

I have to spend time, but I think I’m gonna like huge big amounts. *g* Also, after he deals with the state secrets bar, he goes on to qualified immunities etc. and Judge Walton, while dealing with the statutory issues as well goes back to the underlying FOURTH AMENDMENT rights as well, and what I thought was the pivotal case – for state secrets precedent as well as domestic search of citizens precedent – the Keith case. I’ll have to dig in to see how he handles in in general, but here’s the nice (imo) quote from towards the end of the opinion

[discussing plaintiff’s constitutional claims] In United States v United States District Court, 407 US 297 (1972) (Keith), the Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment does not permit warrantless wiretaps to track domestic threats to national security, id at 321, reaffirmed the “necessity of obtaining a warrant in the surveillance of crimes unrelated to the national security interest,” id at 308, and did
not pass judgment “on the scope of the President’s surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country,” id. Because the alleged dragnet here encompasses the communications of “all or substantially all of the communications transmitted through [AT&T’s] key domestic telecommunications facilities,” it cannot reasonably be said that the program as alleged is limited to tracking foreign powers.

Accordingly, AT&T’s alleged actions here violate the constitutional rights clearly established in Keith. Moreover, because “the very action in question has previously been held unlawful,” AT&T cannot seriously contend that a reasonable entity in its position could have believed that the alleged domestic dragnet was legal.(emphasis added)

No time to clean up with the wordpress cut/paste issues.

NOte that when he says “Accordingly, AT&T’s alleged actions here violate the constitutional rights clearly established in Keith” no one asserts AT&T was doing this on its lonesome. If it very clearly violates constitutional requirements and is the SAME issue as Keith for AT&T, say hello to Mr. Gonzales and DOJ.

In any event, while Judge Walton goes ahead and certifies his ruling for appeal — he doesn’t seem to think any stay is necessary (kind of like what GOV argued for the Jefferson case – *g*).

He also does something kind of novel – he says he’s going to appoint an expert under FRE 706 to help determine where there might be a reasonable danger of harm to national security.

Hi NSA!

I love Bush!

OT — Senate Vote “FOR” 1965 VRA Extension – 98 to 0!!!

Taylor: ‘No?’ I don’t see anything in your response that I disagrere with, or that can’t also align with what I’m mentioning. They’ve been talking about the dangers of a so-called “Shi’ite triangle’ for a long time, would love to have the Iran & Syria in even greater antagonism, adn further divert attention from the Palestinians. Shia/Sunni conflict serves tehir interests.

The point is out there. I’m just a messenger.

CMike 61 – and to make it even more confusing, I’ve read recently (but don’t know the veracity) that the Iranian nutcase (Shia)is now more popular in Egypt than the President.

Plus, Sunni and Shia both have claimed the “Palestinian Cause” and non-ME Muslims have networks in place for donating funds to extremist groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, etc.

Mary @ 77

Boy, if that’s a “quickie skim through” I’d hate to be on your bad side when you really get down to business ;-)

The issue that angers me the most is the difficulties that the Israelis are putting in the way of Canadians and others wanting to leave Lebanon. There are 50,000 plus Canadians in Lebanon. Some 30,000 or more want to leave. At least 8 Canadian civilians have died so far. But the Israeli navy is repeatedly stopping ships carrying Canadians and allowing only limited access to the port of Beirut for the ships chartered by Canada. The result is a really wretched experience for the Canadian refugees. There are many Canadians trapped in the south of Lebanon and now Israel is warning that anyone travelling in the south will be attacked.
I think Israel wants these people out and to not return. The best long-term chance for a stable Lebanon is the influence and contributions of these Canadian and other emigres. One gets the impression that Israel does not want a stable Lebanon.
In the past, Canada has generally been strongly supportive of Israel. Their actions have lost Israel a lot of friends in Canada. It’s as though they have attacked a small Canadian city.

Good post, as usual, Taylor. Thanks.

LA Times Wed had a decent overview of the why of the conflict, with all it’s multi-layer reasoning, including the potential end-game for Israel: taking out Iran’s nuke ability. Worth a read.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..n-leftrail

There’s far too much good stuff to blockquote and it sheds a tiny bit more light on our deer-in-the-headlights non-reaction—seems to me that a ceasefire would cripple our ability to get in on the next war. Hey, and just in time for the mid-terms!

J in S – but fair warning – I get things wrong on too quick skims. *g*

MOre OT – a lot of the Walton case, too, brings you back to what Specter is doing. Someone, I think lhp? – had a link earlier to an op piece Harman did about Specter’s legislation. The big nugget IMO was that Harman says that she has been briefed on the “terrorist surveillance program” (covert unconstituional I) unlike Specter and guess what – it can all be done under FISA. So Specter, who hasn’t been briefed on the program, should maybe lay low on drafting legislation for a program he knows nothing about. She and Conyers have legislation that will work just fine thanks.

Taylor is absolutely right that the Sunni/Shiite divide is ancient. And generally held in check (when it has been) by extremely authoritarian regimes right through to the Ottomans and the current crop of Arab despots.

For that reason, I believe that the neocons and the Israelis are playing with fire . . .

The Shia are the majority in Iraq and in Iran (and I think Bahrain and Kuwait). They are also a significant (and angry) minority in Saudi Arabia.

I am very afraid that the sectarian violence (which really does stem from paramoia on both the part of the Sunni and the Shia, as well as a desire to dominate there) will/can spread throughout the Gulf region.

A very nasty genie was let out of the bottle with the US invasion of Iraq (a genie that the US well understood since that was THE main reason Bush I pulled back in Gulf War I) and now, the danger is that the Israeli attack on Lebanon will only provide more gasoline to the fire.

All aided and abetted by the nihilistic neocons in charge of Bush foreign policy.

In my 4:12 I meant Egypt’s President. Probably most people are more popular there than our President.

Off for awhile – great post Taylor, sorry for the OTs.

Tennessean, you still here?

Hope you saw a comment a couple of weeks ago where I offered my apology to you about losing my temper on an earlier thread about Iraq.

I was trying to prevent a cutoff of communication between fdl and mfi, relevant here because he has peacekeeping and military experience in Lebanon. Crashing the gate/coalition building. Keep the lines of communication open even if we sometimes misunderstand or disagree.

timewarp @ 4:21 pm (#86) – In other words, they’re getting along together about as well as the Franciscans and the Jesuits during the Middle Ages, or the Catholics and the Protestants somewhat later. While there’s certainly a theological motive in Christianity for tolerating people with different religious views, that wasn’t a terribly popular notion once upon a time. It took centuries of persecution and conflict to make that attitude a popular one. I hope it won’t take Muslims that long to get a clue.

le Jackal,

My sense is that the current Israeli Gov really believes that only the use of overwhelming force can subdue Hamas/Hizbollah. And it is sad that the overwhelming majority of Israelis believe this as well. It is a perfect example of what can happen when what John Dean calls an authoritarian mind-set (which is predicated on a constant sense of fear) takes hold of a culture or people. The exact same analogy can be applied to the Arab people of the region.

the Edict of Nantes of 1598 was probably the first major non-aggression pact of Protestants and Catholics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Nantes

Taylor,

Check it out, this could be the hidden reason for the over reaction by Olmert

It’s not about oil, it’s about water.

And BTW Shrub is loving this because who’s talking about the calamity in Iraq?

That’s right nobody.

Mary @ 4:06 pm (#77) – Thanks for the summary. That’s a lot of legal document to go through for a non-lawyer. I have a couple of questions:

* What is FRE 706?

* How likely is this decision to survive appeal?

I suppose the latter is an unfair question, given the makeup of the court, but if you or the other lawyers here have an idea …

Cujo359 – an extremely apt analogy. Think of how the Jews were literally hounded/killed/persecuted etc all over Europe beginning in the Middle Ages. Think of the 30 year war in the 16th century. Think of the Spanish Inquisition which drove both Muslims and Jews out of Spain (or executed them or forced conversions). For that matter think of the religious justifications for the wholesale enslavement of Africans in the Americas by Christian Kings.

The only think that dampened any of this in the western psyche was the rise of a literate, educated culture which allowed humanistic and liberal values to be developed and nurtured. Unfortunately, the middle east has never been provided with enough “breathing room” for that to happen, in spite of the efforts of many well educated and secular Arabs and Iranians.

I can’t believe I forgot to mention the crusades. Talk about sectarian warfare…

Interesting, JinS. Another link you all might find interesting:

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/b…..ality.html

BTW — an interesting little factiod. When the Crusaders finally managed to conquer Jeruselam (can’t remember the year), they immediately set upon a wholesale slaughter of every man, woman and child they could get their hands on. Rivers of blood were literally running through the streets. Among those whom they killed was a very large population of the original Christians, because in their ignorance the Crusaders thought that all the inhabitants of Jerusalem were Sacarens (muslims).

Over a thousand years later and not much has changed in the human psyche/

last year I saw a woman with a handbag that said simply: Remember 732. I was flabbergasted: from my high school history I recalled it was the Battle of Tours where the Islamic invaders were repulsed by Charles Martel from France, thus saving Western Civilization. The lady said I was correct and that “they” were going to try it again and that we had to be vigilant … this was in Indianapolis. I sure hope the Governor has sentinels on the Ohio River watching for Moorish invaders!

Moderators, does anyone know when’s Jane’s next post is supposed to go up?

Great graphic at Steve Gilliards –

http://stevegilliard.blogspot……-jews.html

*ilson46201

Now that is one of the more bizarre things I have heard in awhile.

Israel, with financial support from the American taxpayer, is bombing Lebanon back into the stone age while the rest of the world is trying to get emergency aid to the terrorized Lebanese people. Is it any wonder that people in that part of the world hate us for supporting this kind of state-sponsored terrorism?

Mary at 77:

Thanks for the quickie! LOL!

Seriously, I do appreciate your analysis! I’m about at page 28 of 72, and find the legalese style to be somewhat ass-backwards. *g*

I wish the Judge would’ve stated his decision up front first, then he could sumarize the pro and con arguments, his reasoning, and then all the supportive statutes, footnotes and what-have-you.

Since IANAL, I have no clue as to whether this is just his style or the norm.

TRex – the Magic 8Ball says 6:30:48 (my PST).

john in sac at 91–

Disagree that no one is talking about Iraq.

Three Republicans in Congress who previously supported Bush on the war are having very public second thoughts: GOP Lawmakers Edge Away from Optimism on Iraq Washington Post front page, print verson today.

I guess they noticed there will be an election.

Okay, Mommybrain. Just making sure I wasn’t supposed to hit a button somewhere.

Wolfie on CNN just announced that a bipartisan Congressional delegation headed by Hoekstra and Harman will be visiting the Middle East — yeah, they’ll go to a nice hotel in Tel Aviv and get briefings from Bibi Netananyu and Associates …

I know the current thinking is that the Shia and Sunni are divided and it goes back centuries, but they share the land and a rather beautiful belief system and history and they feel and can see that it is under attack under the guise of our national security (their oil that we inhale). We in the west were hell-bent on occupying one way or another– with imperialism and colonialism and always by force. And then there was the despicable attempt to “convert” peoples to the “true faith” of the West while we gave someone else’s land to a people who share a religion and a sad history out of our collective guilt for their sorrows. Dadgum it, how much humiliation are a people to take??? I am suprised the Buddhists don’t rise up along with the Hindus and Atheists! They can look at the long history of the West and our hegemonic goals and know what they are in for. If they have something we want, anything, watch out!

Here’s another laterally on-topic article

It was originally in Foreign Affairs (still is but you have to pay for it) by Jessica Stern on the malleability (sp?) of Al Qaeda – but just substitute Hezbollah for AQ and you understand that trying to bomb terrorists is like whack-a-mole

Someone commented above that a change in one of the Congress houses could create a cheerier scenario. I am not so sanguine about that. Both parties are deeply in the pockets of AIPAC. Hillary Clinton positioned herself the other day as totally on the side of Israel. This is scary coming from someone who wants to be commander-in-chief. Diplomacy should not be assumed dead, and in diplomacy you have to look at both sides of a complaint. Yeah, yeah, I know she is running for re-election in NY with a large Jewish population, and she will change her position when she is running nationally, right?

Taylor your recent stuff’s been great, this especially.

Forgot the linky

Taylor, Thanks for a post that should be sent to every journalist in MSM.

Mary, Thanks for some quick insight on the latest decision. Finally a little good news.)

Oh wait, the Brits already did it to the Hindus and Moslems in India for the spices, etc and as for the Buddhists, well then, there is Japan. So far, atheists are safe, except here.

OT:

So Lieberman tried running a smirch on Lamont with Halliburton stock ownership…Something he himself was hip-deep in?

What is the last thing to go through a bug’s mind when it hits the windshield?

;>)

omigawd! Tucker Carlson is in Lebanon ! the tetrahippal apocalypse is upon us!

BushCo is quite engaged I think … they have given the go ahead to Israel along with the armaments to attack … this is not a question of silence for their approval is spoken loud and clear in their veto in the UN as well as their continuous statements of support for “Israel’s right to defend itself” … joined by almost all of the Congress including “heros” like Feingold. This is simply a continuation of the criminal foreign policy of the US in support of Israel’s occupation of Palestine and continued abusive behavior in the region. We have encouraged, funded and approved these policies since ‘48 and W is simply acting as every US administration has since then. Our sudden discovery of “shia/sunni” disputes is merely a smokecover for the real agenda here which is occupation and domination of ME resources by Western powers – UK & France years ago, US now. We have never stood for justice in the region.

Take a close look at the photos coming out of Lebanon – including the ones showing the Lebanese victims of chemical armaments – white phosphorous as the US used in Fallujah?

And read Fisk today on the latest war crimes:
http://www.informationclearing…..e14077.htm

siun — any White House that would have Eliot Abrams as its MidEast coordinator is up to no good …

agreed *ilson – agreed … but we forget that these policies are not new nor repub only but are the ongoing disaster of american foreign policy to stand for justice and the rights of the people of the middle east

On the topic of crusades and some very interesting reading. I found this diary on DKos back in April. Sure wish I could find the rest in
his series.

History for Kossacks: The Second Crusade

by Unitary Moonbat

Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 07:11:15 PM PDT
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/9/221116/6285

Taylor, great post.

Many of you know why I cannot abide collective punishments.

http://www.zchor.org/lidice1.htm

poor Josh Marshall at TPM is ‘jumping the flounder’ about Cut’n Run Joe … http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..php#009119

Simply put, I blame Bush.

If not for his callous disregard for five years of the most volatile conflict on the planet, his inflaming emnities by his intemperate rhetoric, his encouraging the most right wing and militaristic elements of a very pluralistic Israeli society while marginalizing and forcing into ever more aggresive posture the most radical elements of Islam whole ignoring the basic human needs of all concerned, destroying our credibility as interlocutors and brokers, weakening the U.N. and last but not least a counterproductive, poorly planned, horribly executed and totally wrong headed invasion of Iraq which has poured gasoline on the smoldering flames of conflict while weakening America’s moral and strategic position and tying down our military in a grinding occupation, this might not have happened, or at least would be more easily dealt with.

Good job, Bushie. But diplomating is hard work.

Karen Hughes is doing a hecka job, aint she?

omigawd! Tucker Carlson is in Lebanon

*ilson, Double Speeeew! That little angry shrew needs some close calls.

Not a ‘Sigma Chi kegger’
Many writers saw a sexist aspect to Bush’s back rub. “This isn’t a Sigma Chi kegger, it’s the G-8 Summit,” wrote blogger Christy Hardin Smith on Firedoglake.com. Bush was actually in Delta Kappa Epsilon.

• Bush backrub heats up YouTube

CHS of FDL quoted on msnbc.com

Operation Enduring Freedom is in the house.

George W. Bush isn’t trusted, because America is no longer seen as an honest broker.

Quite the the understatement at this point – even with previous actual grownup humans at the helm, the world has always known we had a thumb on the scale – but this chimp and crew are beyond anything – they don’t even bother to show up at the shop. Somebody told em they can do better torching the place and collecting the insurance money.

Thanks siun, that makes more sense than the admin being frozen…but I wonder if W is completely left out of the loop. Sure seems that way reviewing the G8 stupidity. He just gets his talking points with the morning briefing.

john in sacramento, thanks for posting that article about water – I read that yesterday, and then couldn’t find it again. In this light, the Isreali desire to push everyone north of the Litani makes a great deal of sense.

And Drouse – I have often thought about the similarities between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto. It’s not an view that too many people like to hear.

Janet

This is all Cheney. Bush can’t butter a roll.

“What is FRE 706?”

Federal Rule of Evidence 706. Court Appointed Experts

(a) Appointment.

The court may on its own motion or on the motion of any party enter an order to show cause why expert witnesses should not be appointed, and may request the parties to submit nominations. The court may appoint any expert witnesses agreed upon by the parties, and may appoint expert witnesses of its own selection. An expert witness shall not be appointed by the court unless the witness consents to act. A witness so appointed shall be informed of the witness’ duties by the court in writing, a copy of which shall be filed with the clerk, or at a conference in which the parties shall have opportunity to participate. A witness so appointed shall advise the parties of the witness’ findings, if any; the witness’ deposition may be taken by any party; and the witness may be called to testify by the court or any party. The witness shall be subject to cross-examination by each party, including a party calling the witness.

(b) Compensation.

Expert witnesses so appointed are entitled to reasonable compensation in whatever sum the court may allow. The compensation thus fixed is payable from funds which may be provided by law in criminal cases and civil actions and proceedings involving just compensation under the fifth amendment. In other civil actions and proceedings the compensation shall be paid by the parties in such proportion and at such time as the court directs, and thereafter charged in like manner as other costs.

(c) Disclosure of appointment.

In the exercise of its discretion, the court may authorize disclosure to the jury of the fact that the court appointed the expert witness.

(d) Parties’ experts of own selection.

Nothing in this rule limits the parties in calling expert witnesses of their own selection.

Oh, and Le Jackal, can you point to any links about how ships carrying Canadian and other evacuees are being stopped?

Amazing…

James Dobson’s Colorado Springs-based ministry stands firmly against same-sex marriage, gay rights initiatives and, now, mooing puppies.
On Tuesday, Focus unveiled its new “straight” puppy Web site, http://www.no-moo-lies.com, featuring a basset hound named Sherman, who barks as biology intended. During a news conference, a Focus employee dressed in a dog suit, who serves as a mascot at the group’s visitors center, made a brief appearance.
“Dogs aren’t born mooing, and people aren’t born gay,” a Focus news release stated.

http://realreligiousleft.blogspot.com/

Oops, sorry — forgot the cite:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rules.htm

Good thing I’m not practicing anymore!

marksb … I think we get too involved in worrying about W’s role or lack thereof … the administration, whoever is in charge, is committing war crimes and that is what really matters. Our focus on W, fun though it is, distracts us from the real evil of our actions in the world.

6,000 dead Iraqis in just two months …

(have to run out for a few minutes … sorry to comment and run)

I told mr ironranger that Condi still wasn’t going to ME until end of this week. Then I heard Wolf Blitzer saying she was going DIRECTLY to ME by NEXT week! I guess KO caught that because his comment was that she was IMMEDIATELY (emphasis his) going to ME. What’s the rush?

… and babies aren’t born speaking English or flying airplanes. Basset hounds do neither ever …

*ilson at 5:13 pm – To be fair, all Josh did was post a letter from a freeper fan of Marshall Whitman, who, as we all know, is DemocRAT to the bone. :p

But seriously, I’ve read nearly identical rants over in freeperville, but why Josh is playing that game, I have no idea. (Unless of course, there really is a lot of anti-semitism at DU and Daily Kos.)

WASHINGTON — Potential presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani took in almost $1.5 million in political donations in June. That’s a lot of money in 30 days, but it also is $500,000 less than a major fundraiser was supposed to bring in.
The former New York City mayor is considered a strong contender for the GOP nomination in 2008 should he decide to run. He has also toured the country extensively raising money for GOP candidates, drawing on the goodwill generated after he led New York through the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Giuliani’s political action committee, Solutions America, reported total contributions of $1.49 million for June, by far its biggest month. But aides had promoted a gala on June 13 as a $2 million affair.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01617.html

I left this link at the bottom of the last thread…it’s about R & R. (Rudy & Ralphie ((Reed))…)
http://www.talk2action.org/sto…..15054/3433

PS: Another politician running on the horror of 911.

unfortunately, to some folk, if you dont subscribe 100% to the pandering resolutions just passed in Congress, you are accused of being anti-Semitic …

an old Russian saying: any stick will do to beat a horse!

jlr at 133
From the CBC:

After the vessel left Beirut late Wednesday, it took at least 15 hours to reach Larnaca, with the Israel’s naval blockade stopping the ship twice during the trip, Maalouf said.

an old Russian saying: any stick will do to beat a horse!

Oh lord, *ilson, you’ve just brought back that passage in Crime and Punishment that’s haunted me for 35 years.

You know what I fear? I fear Olmert has just signed his country’s death warrant. Even Ariel Sharon, bellicose as he was, would probably have known better than this.

Siun, oh sure, do a drive-by… No, you are once again correct. It’s the admin—and the enabling Congress—that should have their feet to the fire. Or all be in the war crimes box listening to their rights.

I’m 3/4 through Palast’s book (at a snail’s pace average of 3 or 4 pages a day—typical summer pace) and I wonder about our election situation. Is there any hope at all? I’m hoping for a takeover in November and then two years frantic activity to clean the system up, but damn, it’s not a good scene…

Le Jackal, thanks. As a Canadian this one kinda made me perk up.

Janet

lotus: nobody is proposing Israel’s eradication. Nobody! The 2-state solution is advocated by many but the more radical proposal is that there should be a bi-national, secular State of Palestine. Neither Islam or Jewish would be the official state religion. Olmert is exacerbating the situation in that neck of the woods making any sort of peaceful solution difficult.

Eureka Springs, Ar

Unitary Moonbat’s diaries are here:
http://unitary-moonbat.dailykos.com/

Great history lessons, especially the Crusades — very highly recommended!

i’ve been a lurker for a while here and i have to say i am a big fan . This topic however rubs a raw nerve. I’ve noticed that alot of the old regulars have not chimed in, not even the hosts. I am still waiting to see a pro israeli post and i fear non will come. Are there other lurkers like me that usually agree with the posts here but are torn by this topic. and *ilson if you think anti semitism is not real or a part of peoples response to this crisis you are dead wrong.

*ilson, no one is proposing Israel’s eradication . . . except Hezbollah and Hamas and Syria and Iran. And at this point, who’s in position to bet against them?

OT: Froomkin takes in Bush’s visit to the NAACP

I am not unaware of the dangers of anti-Semitism and have been scared for a week of seeing it trying to run rampant. I haven’t yet. There has been just one comment Ive deleted for possible mis-perception of anti-Semitism. I know the LieberCampaign is looking zealously for possible ammunition to use against Ned. It aint gonna happen!

#149: you a troll? Many people have said here that Israel has a right to defend itself. I would have no problem if they had concentrated their efforts at hezbollah, and sent troops in and attacked the southern strip of Lebanon. But repeated attacks deep into Lebanese territory against its infrasructure is counterproductive, immoral and dangerous. If you really have read this blog you would have seen such comments.

JWR @ 5:32 pm (#139) – Right above that letter at TPM were several that rebutted it.

All agree that this is an unfortunate situation, and not one entirely of the making of this generation of Israelis nor representing the highest and best manifestation of the citizens of that country. However untenable the initial locating of Israel as a modern European Jewish state in the middle of an existing Palestine the Arab Middle East, the state of Israel has done nothing to endear itself to its neighbors.

In the context of viewing recent Israeli actions as a mistake; calling someone who holds that view “anti-Semitic” reminds of how those who were opposed to slavery, were labeled “nigger-lovers”.

the hostesses here have both posted several articles about this situation in Lebanon which you would have noticed if you were a quasi-regular here and were truly concerned with the issue …

#152 i am definetly not a troll! but i find most comments quick to say israel over reacted, with few and far between to suggest that israel had little choice in the matter. A few nights ago in steve gillard post any one defending israel got chewed up quickly in the comments.

George W. Bush isn’t trusted, because America is no longer seen as an honest broker.

This sentence doesn’t mean what I think the writer thinks it means. I think the writer means:

America is no longer seen as an honest broker because George W. Bush isn’t trusted.

Sharkbabe at 128:

“the world has always known we had a thumb on the scale…”

Right-on Sharkbabe!

Only now it’s Cheney’s big fat ass on the scale!

Israel has run with the War of Terror enabler
wide and deep. Enlisting that over-used and
under-defined Bushism World View has allowed
Israel to run past any previous stop signs as
long as it invokes the incantation of “fighting
the war on terror”. Doing so enables Israel to
cast the Palestinians as demons unceasingly and
now Hezbollah is cast likewise. Meanwhile the
suffering,mayhem and death consequences being
meted out by Israel on non-combatants which
families,children and innocents surely are is
greenlighted being Israel is doing so on the
premise it is the natural result of the War
of Terror. Any suggestion that the USA is able
to be a mediator in the Middle East surely is
nonsense. The possibility of a setup to push
Iran invasion seems likely with Israel aiding
in creating some “war drum” runup for the Bush
WH to incite Americans with in trumpeting its
thinly veiled Iran invasion desires. With the
American Right media organs grinding out daily
diatribes about Bush having gone “soft” it is
likely enough something is in the works. With
Iraq having become stuck in violence and the
dance of death invading Iran would change the
context. Judging from how the American MSM is
falling into the “We support Israel” mantra
the Bush WH and the DittoHeaded Congress may
very well pull off another false fact and fiction war dance for “premptive war” on Iran.

Cujo359 at 6:01 pm – Thanks for pointing that out. (When *ilson posted his link, I just went to TPM homepage and those follow-ups weren’t there yet.)

I would just like to throw in again the symbiotic relationship between the neocons and the Israeli right. A government goes full tilt into a military conflict making big promises about the results and the ease with which they will be accomplished. They shoot the place up but oh, wait a minute they have no exit strategy. Iraq or Lebanon? You choose.

anon @ 5:55 pm (#149) – If you don’t think that a knee-jerk cry of anti-semitism is a part of the justification of whatever Israel does, no matter how reprehensible, then you are wrong.

taking down airports etc make sense militarily if you want to isolate hezbollah from recieving more ammunition from syria and iran. And just for the record i did not call anyone anti semetic. i just said don’t think anti semitism doesn’t play a factor in people’s responses to it.

Also the host have not posted themselves on this topic and i find that weird

Well, Hugh, if you don’t plan to exit, I guess you don’t need an exit strategy.

“anon” — au contraire, both Jane and Christy have written and posted articles this week on this subject. That you have somehow overlooked them is weird …

The “hosts” are not at 24/7 beck and call. This is a complex community of posters and commenters. Also, this post is a guest post by Taylor Marsh who has participated in the conversation.

I’d say the hosts have “posted,” anon, since they’ve sought out expertise such as Taylor brings to the lake.

Your concern trolling’s not gonna work.

I get really irritated when someone pulls out the anti-semitism violins even when Israel does things that are reprehensible. Killing innocent people is not the way to solve these very serious conflicts. Oppressing the Palestinians and taking their lands is not “protecting Israel.” And, yes, I’m Jewish.

I do wonder how many different folks are commenting here under the moniker “anon” — it’s getting confusing enough that I hope the management will consider disallowing that handle.

There is no anti-semite reasoning or inclination in any of my feelings of anger at Israeli leaders. There is no reason to dislike Jews because of what Olmert and Bush have cooked up. None. That is backward thinking. Disagreement, angrily stated, does NOT mean hatred of a race of people. Are there those who dislike Jews? Of course, but on the face of an argument disagreeing with a sovereign nation’s policies alone, one cannot tell.

And I strongly reject the label. Will you see pro-Israel statements? When I observe policies that help to establish peace, I will agree with Israel. Israel is destroying a house to get rid of the termites.

look i am not looking to pick a fight here. maybe this topic hits to close to home for me. the existence of the state of israel means sooo much to me. that does not mean that they can do no wrong but there are people suffering and dying in israel too.

anon #157,

Israel has refused to negotiate directly with Hezbollah preferring to deal directly with a weak Lebanese central government unable to do so. This resembles their attitude toward the Palestinians for many years. Either they didn’t exist or they were Jordanians. Rather than this overblown and murderous response Israel should have been willing to deal on prisoner exchanges, Shaba Farms, and respecting the sovereignty and territory of Lebanon in exchange for a quiet Northern border. They have not. Instead Israeli preconditions demand that the other side give up all of his bargaining chips before any neogtiations occur. This has never worked and is not working now.

Source: CNEWS/Canada
[Bold by egregious]

Six ships carrying passengers were not able to fully load before they had to leave port. A foreign affairs official in Ottawa said the ships have a narrow security window provided by the Israelis. Once that window closes, the ships have mere minutes to clear the port.

In Cyprus, most of those on the Blue Dawn were to fly back to Canada on chartered jets paid for by the federal government.

snip

As evacuees left the ship, priority was given to the ill and the injured. The first evacuee off the boat was a young boy who clutched his Canadian passport as he was rolled off the boat in a stretcher. After that came a baby held by a medic and a young girl in a wheelchair.

Elie Maalouf, also from Montreal, said the journey took long because the Israeli navy blockaded the vessel for more than three hours, then sent them on a long route to Cyprus.

OK crew, as per anon’s comments at 149 (welcome anon), of course I am amazingly conflicted by this whole set of event in Israel and beyond. I am involved in some work in Haifa — and the people I know there, I respect and I fear for their safety. I have offered to put them up if they decide to leave Israel and take a break. I know many people — friends and colleagues — who have lived for considerable time in Israel. I remember when the Ethiopian Jews flew to Israel and the country kept them on the plane — on the runway — while the Knesset debated the mean ing of the right of return. During that debate, one old time terrorist/freedon fighter said, “Given the history of the world, who would claim they were Jewish if they were not?”

And they let the Ethiopians in.

Like so many things in this world, the value of the possession has exceeded the possession of value. I am a VERY BIG Israel supporter because in my life I have been animated by the question: “Where were you when Jesus was on the cross.” For a Catholic, such a Baptist question might seem out of place, but it sums up my operating confusion: What mistake of self-righteousness did you make today?

But, as a real and true and longtime and connected supporter of Israel — I fear they (as a country) have jumped the shark. Haifa, with its fabulous diversity of cultures and religions and ease of co-communion is like a theme park in the Middle East and is no longer the aspiration, but the preserved piece of what might have been. It is hard, as I said way above, to support anyone who engages in collective punishments.

I hope and pray that Israel returns to the place that understood that even Ethiopians with no contact with the whole of 18th, 19th and 20th century history of European repression had a shared place in their hearts with all Jews.

Calling “anti-semitism” on polical policy seems to me to be a non sequitur. Also, people don’t talk much about what a racist country Israel itself is. Ashkenazis discriminate against both Palestinians and sephardic jews, to my understanding. Everything is more complex than we generally know — that’s why these conversations are so useful.

water: if you search Juan Cole’s web site for the terms ‘water Israel’, or ‘water Lebanon’ etc, you can get lots of info on the messy water politics of the region.

re Congress, I think that it would make a difference. What is going on now is crazy, Bush has been deeply irresponsible. I don’t buy the story that Likudnik lobbies run everything in Congress. Even if I did, there are sane and insane ways to push an agenda.

For the record, I think Israel had to react to Hezbollah attacks, and I would have no problem if they had focused on the Hezbollah areas in Southern Lebanon, sent troops in, cut off roads to area. But this…?

anon – perhaps you should read the Human Rights Watch analysis of the legal issues involved in the current Israeli attack on Lebanon. It can be found here:

Note that attacks on civilian infrastructure are only permitted by Geneva in very specific situations – for example, if Israel attacked a plane carrying fighters or arms to be used to attack Israel, taking out that plane is justified but destroying the airport itself without such an immanent event is not. The same applies to power grid, water supply, bridges and all means for civilians to leave.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/20…..o13748.htm

Link from Markfromireland at Gorilla’s Guides (link to GG in my name)

imm 175: Selah.

It is apparent that Hezbollah is the present face on the Arab resistance to the long suffering peoples of the Palestine occupation of Israel.

It is unfortunate that violence has been the only tool Israel has employed in securing its “homeland”. If, perhaps, for every well dug for a Jewish family, another had been dug for a Palestinian family, things might have been different. For every road to a settler village, a road for a Palestinian, and so on with schools, clinics, and all the rest of the amenities of the modern state. Alas, this was not the case. It is difficult not to be cynical in viewing the plight of the Israelis in Palestine.

Perhaps the current intention is to depopulate southern Lebanon, rename it Palestine and resettle the displaced Palestinians there. Who knows? But the history of the relationship between the Israelis and those lebanese who went on to become Hezbollah suggests that no amount of bombing on the part of Israel is going to dampen the ardor of the displaced. And if all the Israelis can do is bomb, G*d help us.
We’ll be paying to build and blow up the Middle East forever. What a waste.

And Anon, it has been stated here before that our hosts prefer to post on areas of their own expertise, and bring in other experts to lead discussions on other topics.

To change the subject a bit, has anyone heard from Cheney in all this? It makes me nervous when he disappears into his bunker.

Ain’t DAT da trufe, LL! Hmmm, yezindeedy, ol’ R. Bruce done been mighty scarce since last week. Now where would that boy be . . .

lest it be forgotten: for 18 years Israel ruled that strip of southern Lebanon. They were forced to withdraw in 1990 — that experience did not bring Israel peace. Soldiers were dying regularly, killed by insurgents.

There are a lot of sad truths when we talk about this region. One of those truths is that we long ago anointed Israel as the maintainer of the delicate balance that exists in the Middle East. For the US to now condemn Israel, or to take any position that weakens Israel, is tantamount to an open invitation to the other countries in the region to have at it. The time for rational and diplomatic choices has come and gone, and we have consigned ourselves to the sidelines, where we will watch and wait.

The sidelines is where we were when Iran had a relatively rational president, and was open to talks with the west, but we let those opportunities wither and die, which gave the crazy man an opening to take the helm of the country. Iran, that is.

George Bush keeps talking about the delicacy of the Lebanese government, but here again, we have been pretty much on the sidelines, doing little to help this new government to become more entrenched.

This is a region in which serious, concerted diplomatic efforts should have been ongoing for the last 6 years, but this administration abandoned those efforts because…regime change in Iraq was going to magically solve all these deeply difficult problems, and no one would have to work too haaarrrd to make it happen.

This administration counted on suspenders keeping its pants up, but it turns out they should have been wearing a belt, too. Diplomacy conducted by experts in the field could have been the belt that held things up when the suspenders that were Iraq snapped.

We’re close to EPU territory, but I just wanted to vent a little. And I guess my point is that whatever Israel is doing, it is doing in large part because of our failures over the years. I am as sick about the whole thing as anyone, but it is irresponsible to lay all of this at Israel’s feet, when our inaction and our inattention is probably a major factor in what the Israelis are doing now.

search Juan Cole’s site for ‘water Israel’ or ‘water Lebanon’ to get a running history of the water politics, from what I consider a reliable source.

I think a change in Congress would make a difference. I don’t believe that Likud lobbies can dictate US policy, but even if they could, there are responsible and sane, and irresponsible and insane ways to push an agenda.

Israel had to respond. If it couldn’t get Lebanon to stop the attacks,Israel had the right to send troops into the southern strip, cut off transportation routes to Hezbollah controlled areas, all sorts of things. Some one attacks your country with rockets, you have a right to respond with force if that is what it takes. Who argues with that? But this?

At this point in history is there any real reason why anyone should be subjected to Peter Kings views?

From Yahoo News
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..us_mideast

WASHINGTON – The House, displaying a foreign affairs solidarity lacking on issues like Iraq, voted overwhelmingly Thursday to support
Israel in its confrontation with Hezbollah guerrillas.

The resolution, which was passed on a 410-8 vote, also condemns enemies of the Jewish state.

House Republican leader John Boehner cited Israel’s “unique relationship” with the United States as a reason for his colleagues to swiftly go on record supporting Israel in the latest flare-up of violence in the Mideast.

Little of the political divisiveness in Congress on other national security issues was evident as lawmakers embraced the Bush administration’s position.

Wilson 98–believe it or not, for a long time I’ve thought that the unscrupulous producer who does the (barely coded) movie of the Battle of Tours would make oodles of money from fundies. I never actually asked one though, so I’ll take your observation as confirmation.

new thread above

look i am not nearly as eloquent as many of you so i’ll shut now. its not easy to debate all of you at once. i thought that there where others that felt the same as me but to scared to speak up. I guess i thought wrong. I think we all could use a refresher (myself included) on how 58 years (and counting) of this conflict has led to the same outcome over and over. May we all live to see peace in the middle east at some point.

Israel said it was going to attack Hezbollah but it really hasn’t done much against Hezbollah but it has done a lot against Lebanon. It said it was going to attack militants but it has been targeting civilians instead. This is why the Muslim street, Europe, and some here in this country are so repelled by Israel’s actions.

At the beginning, Israel said it was going to destroy Hezbollah. This ignored their failure to do so during their 18 year occupation of Southern Lebanon. It now says that it can not. So what exactly is the mission, what is the objective, and what is the strategy?

A sovereign state shooting up the civilian structure of a neighboring state because it is pissed isn’t policy. It’s a war crime. It is also stupid because A)any justification looks as contrived as it is in reality, B)the sane part of the world will reject it, and C) it creates a more unstable less secure environment negating the purpose of the action.

You’d think that Shrub otta be good at that wedge politics, since it’s the only way he got hisself “elected”

anon 190-ish

Please do NOT shut up. This discussion is not complete without you.

Anne,

So now I’m officially in EPU territory. While there are many things our country could and should have done in the Middle East, the simple truth is the Israelis live there and are through our aid to them the dominant regional power. And while Israel often proclaims its desire for peace, it has not pursued it anywhere near as aggressively as it has its military options. IMO this is because Israel and Israeli society have never really given up on the notion of some kind of victory in the place of peace. What does it mean to want peace but only on very unequal terms? Victory is a fantasy. It can never be realized but unless or until Israel gives up its desire for it it will not have peace either.

anon 190-ish — I agree with immanentize, please do not shut!

I quite agree — ‘anon’ should post here now and then — the discussion was spirited but not mean-spirited.

Hugh, you are one of the people whose thoughtfulness and insight on this topic I have greatly appreciated.

LL 169 -

I’m Jewish too, and the reason I never post comments on this issue is because, despite all the blathering to the contrary, commenters here are almost uniformly anti-Israel. No, I did not say “anti-semitic”, I said anti-Israel.

People here pay lip service to the idea that Israel has the right to defend itself, but when pressed on exactly how Israel should deal with Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and the various other terrorists organizations – ALL OF WHOM HAVE MADE IT THEIR STATED MISSION TO DESTROY THE STATE OF ISRAEL – the answer is rather pathetic: make nice with the terrorists. Succumb to their demands. Negotiate with Hezbollah? The terrorists don’t want to negotiate. They want to destroy Israel. Why don’t you believe them?

Regarding a Palestinian state: Sorry folks, but it really isn’t possible to negotiate a two-party solution when you have no negotiating partner. Like it or not, Ehud Barak made an extraordinary effort, along with very substantial concessions to the PLO, and what was the response from Arafat? A resounding “no”. He sealed the fate of the Palestinians with his rejection of Barak’s deal.

Who’s the negotiating partner now? Oh, yeah – there isn’t one.

And don’t even think about tearing my head off and accusing me of being a concern troll or a tool of AIPAC, or any other meaningless crap you can come up with. I remeber the way EPU was treated the other day when he tried to get a straight answer to his questions. The same way you’re treating anon tonight. It sounds like, other than immanentize, I am probably sicker at heart about the disproportionate, violent response by Israel than all of you put together. Because Israel matters to me. And when someone you love commits an outrageous act, the wound is deep. The fact remains: before this warring started last week, the hostility towards Israel was just as vociferous as it is now. So it really doesn’t matter what this, or any Israeli government does. Because some people will never believe that Israel is under attack from all sides (it is surrounded by hostile Arab states, did you forget?) every single day.

I get the distinct feeling that the lot of you wouldn’t shed a tear if Iran bombed Israel off the face of the earth the first chance it gets. Not one fucking tear.

lotus and I are going to need to discuss the misconceptions about ‘destroying Israel’ which nobody wants — an exclusively Jewish state in that next of the woods may be impossible but its inhabitants should be able to live in a democratic secular state.

Shoephone — I hear your agony but I have heard the agony of 58 years of occupation…

Honest broker, let’s try to get away from stock market terms and card games. This is no joke.

To mommybrain– How are you feeling?

Most imporant message. I’m so ashamed to be a taxpaying citizen of the US. I can’t feel good about being an American.

Shoephone, please.

Rabin had a very real and reasonable policy — deal with the PLO and bring them into a reasonable discussion so that the pretenders like Hizbolah and Al Queda would be shown to be anti-Israel versu pro-Palestinian. It was a strategic, thoughtful position. It was a plan that separated those with principled positions from those who were anti-semites. And, it was the best strategy for peace in that corner of the middle East. By peeling off those who thought about the region politicaly, it at the same moment isolated those who thought about Israel in terms of religious extremism — in and outside Israel.

But then Rabin was assasinated by a Jew.

i know i said i would shut up, but thank you shoe phone!
you can not analyze the situation using american values and democratic ideas of right and wrong. The countries involved do not operate that way except for israel. negotiating with countries that do not aknowledge you, despise you and do not hold dear the lives of your civilians much less there own. what is there to negotiate. Did you know that hezbolla won’t let any civillians leave the towns they occupy and trap them at gun point. Did you know they park suv’s with rocket launchers in the middle of residential areas to increase civilian casualties

how many leaflets did the hezbolla send to northern israel to warn civilians to get out of the way?

Anon. There are some of us who think that the foundation of Israel was a historic mistake, but most of us don’t think it can or should be undone. We distinguish between the state and religion. Sorry that you can’t do likewise. On the other hand, you aren’t entirely off track. In places that currently support Israel’s current policies, there is a strong history of anti-semitism. And when the worm turns, as it surely will, they will know where to look for blame. You are in the wrong house. when the chips are down, we will defend you from your so-called friends.

Shoephone

To paraphrase what Christy said the other day, “It’s a gray area, there is no black and white to this”

This subject is deeply gray as many in Israel also know

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/

http://www.batshalom.org/

http://www.newprofile.org/default.asp?language=en

http://www.rhr.israel.net/

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Peace, Shoephone and anon, we hear you

*ilson,

I have a comment in moderation that might be of interest to Shoephone and anon

Thanks

ah yes — the old subhuman brutes argument! just show them a whiff of grapeshot and they’ll behave! the other side is just unreasoning animals – Zulus! Gooks! Nips! Injuns! Towelheads! How can civilized people like us coexist with such scum?

anon — spare us the old litanies.

Anon and shoephone,

I’m just curious. What do you suggest? Is there no alternative to massive bombing and the killing of innocents in the numbers Israel is able to inflict. Do you acknowledge that death and destruction breeds nothing but more of the same?

I’m a Jew. I want the Israeli people to feel secure and safe and live in peace. What is the end game to their actions at this point? What Israel is doing today is not good for Israel. It just won’t work.

Sorry to jump in so late. I don’t mean to criticize but the thought process has to start buzzing at a higher frequency or we are all doomed – because we’re all connected. SIGH.

I’m never saying this phrase again when discussing this topic: “I’m a Jew but…”. From now on it’s: “I’m a human being and…”.

shoephone- I shed tears whenever criminals target civilians. Israel is a unique entity on the face of this world. I think what it is doing is wrong and I want it to stop, but I also know that it is a tiny country, surrounded by criminal paramilitary and military groups AND hostile nations and it has to endure non-stop violence and attacks by entities, states and non-state actors, that want to completely wipe them off the face of the earth.

I think what the US is doing in Iraq is wrong wrong wrong too – but that doesn’t mean I want the US blown off the face of the world either.

jenny i hear ya and while i think the u.s missed a golden chance to do some good here, I don’t think the people in charge are competent enough to do good. Perhaps to have sent/send clinton/carter would be a better option

anon,

It’s all quite discouraging and my heart is heavy too. We do have some wise men still walking among us. Men of peace, wise diplomats who could possibly have been making a difference in the past 6 years. Now I don’t know how it will play out.

Peace.

As the dominant regional power, Israel can not escape dominant responsibility for goes on around it.

Hezbollah and Hamas are pretty reprehensible but both came about largely because Israel destroyed their more moderate predecessors. Indeed both enjoyed a certain level of Israeli support early on precisely because they undermined these other groups. Even while extreme, they both are amenable to making deals if those deals are real. Moreover, they can really inforce them.

Sort of on the above point, Israel can always claim it has no negotiating partner because it undermines and destroys them. Look at what happened to Arafat and the PLO.

Lots of groups say lots of things. The PLO was never going to accept Israel but then did. Hamas has said much the same but was moving in precisely that direction when it got preempted by its military wing out of Damascus and Israel’s typical overreaction.

Barak’s offer was not the unadulterated wonder solution it is portrayed as. Barak to say the least was sending mixed messages. At the same time, he was making his extraordinary offer to the Palestinians, he was also expanding settlements. The Palestinians were not exactly oblivious to this.

As for being surrounded by hostile neighbors, Israel has signed peace treaties with both Egypt and Jordan. It has not made any effort to talk with Syria about a cessation of hostilities for years and any official peace with Lebanon would be tied to this.

As for the destruction of Israel by hostile neighbors, this will not happen. Israel is a nuclear power with the best military in the area, outside of us in Iraq. Just as fear is often used in our own country to justify otherwise unjustifiable actions so it is with Israel. Fear Hezbollah and Hamas so that you can feel better about denying Lebanese and Palestinians their rights, so that you can pound the civilian populations of the Lebanon and the Territories. Yes, you can do it but you will not have peace.

You are so right RPB. Shouldn’t we really just nuke the whole ME? There are also some radical Muslims in Europe – we can bomb there too. Also all through Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. – nuke there too. It may seem like tough love for Israel if they are surrounded by waste and fallout, but they’ll get by.

THere are all those illegal immigrants too. Nuke them too – that means US cities, but tough love is tough love.

You’re quite disarming. I’m not scared at all anymore -now that you are Ambassador to Syria, things will be fine. Thank you for your personal efforts to save the world and solution to everything. You be smart.

Hugh, you’re damn good! I wish I could write like that!

We are all the children of Jehovah. We deserve to respect each other and to treat ourselves with dignity and respect. It is only when the selfish politicos, bad governments and religious fanatics get hold of us, that we become corrupted. A sad and seemingly endless commentary on the human condition.

#214: I agree with Hugh. Except I would change description of Hezbollah and Hamas from ‘pretty’ reprehensible to just plain ‘reprehensible’. But Hugh is also correct about the role Israeli policy played in their development, an aspect that I did not see in the Wikipedia articles on them another commenter linked to above. I am very opposed to the previous and current Israeli governments’ policy re Lebanon and Palestinians. But, still, if someone is firing missiles at Israel from the southern strip of Lebanon, and the Lebanese government can’t stop it, then I think Israel has the right to go it and stop it, chase out Hezbollah, and stay in that areas until they get reliable assurances from Lebanon that it won’t happen anymore (which would be a bloody enough mess and create enough crisis and instability). But that is not what has happened at all. Seems to me that both sides have some hidden agendas that we cannot understand, and difficult to know what to say about situation.

John in Sacramento – a wonderful set of links.

Janet

I hesitate to jump in this “frying pan”, but I’ll dip just a toe in. *g*

I’m with Christy on this one.

The ME situation is almost all shades of gray, and if there is any black and white left, it has been obscured by irrational prejudice, unconscionable brutality, both benign and willful neglect, and perhaps intractable unreasoning stupidity (Hmmm…I wonder if I can find any more negative words that would help the situation?).

One thing you can always count on with Americans, is their almost child-like belief that there simply must be a solution to every problem.

I don’t mean to sound fatalistic (but it is what it is), but it has too often come to mind, that there may in fact be no solution to this problem.

The grievances on both sides are real, and perhaps immutably in conflict.

Smarter folks than me have been chewing on this bone for the last 50 years, and realistically, have not been able to find a way to douse this fire.

So now that I’ve bummed everbody out (including myself), I’ll retire from this subject once again and move on to the next thread.

To say that there are no solutions to the problem is really to say that you don’t know that there are, or if you know the solutions, you don’t want to do them.

Peace plans are on the table and a simple google search would find them.

Even Hizbullah, intractable as they are – even Hizbullah could have been dealt with via firm diplomacy and lots of state building. Lebanon has been free of Syrian rule for only a year. Hell, a fat economic policy in South Lebanon, al those Israeli-American dollars raining down in cash instead of bombs, would have done wonders to simply buy the populace away from Hizbullah.

It’s giving up too easily, it’s a form of ignorance and perhaps racism to say – oh they’re brutes, it’s intractable.

No, it’s not intractable. Negotiations are possible, people can make deals. They have and they do. But if you keep insisting that the other side is too evil to deal with then you will never be able to see the deal on the table.

but Taylor and the rest of you, thank you so much for this thread. I am a Lebanese-American and I am so brokenhearted tonight. You guys remind me that there is a reason why I haven’t left the country for Denmark yet.

“The Sunni – Shia showdown could one day be the Israeli – Palestinian conflict on steroids, if we’re not careful.”

I get the feeling that this is exactly what the neocons (& Israel) want. Divide and conquer.

#223 You’re right Larry about there being no gas chambers at the end. Let us know if gassing people or starving them in the desert is more civilized.

Since you mention Nazi’s, Hitler never had nuclear weapons, cruise missiles, helicopters, and depleted uranium munitions to use against civilian populations. Considering the extreme *relevance* of the descriptor “Nazi” these days in relation to unfolding historical events, historical comparisons should not be ignored for fear of the smear.

There is an excellent eaasy titled Why We Need History at Sam Smith’s Progressive Review that is a worthwhile read.

When I was going to school in Brussels in the late 70s, I lived with a Jewish couple who survived the holocaust. And I was dating a Lebanese medical student at the same time, so I got rather both sides of the equation then. All I can say at this point, is two wrongs do not make a right. I wish Israel would listen to that.

Got Milk?

Nothing, nada, justifies a young girl-Israeli or Lebanese–being burned over 90% of her body because of this insanity. Since Israel takes our money, there should not be a big problem persuading it to take our advice: Not from Bush, whom by now Israel has to agree is a nut-case, but from sane people who have Israel’s best interests at heart.

I am not anti-Semitic but I am fast becoming anti-Israel, just as I will always be anti-terrorism in any guise and anti-war for the false reasons justifying it most of the time.

Reply to original post:

I have one suggestion, Taylor. Stop watching cable news and watch PBS news shows like the Newshour wherein you will find the information you seek. You are obviously bright – why are you wasting your time with junk teevee?

Whether you agree with him or not is one thing, but Bush has a very clear position on this – it is not the same as New Orleans when he was so clueless and removed. I have no doubt he knew all about Israel’s intent to invade and agreed to it. He has made it clear that he is actively supporting the Israelis in everything they are doing.

Last time I looked, kitty, PBS only had cartoons on during the day.