[Steve Gilliard was nice enough to share a post on the conflict between Israel and Lebanon. For many in the US, making any sense out of the factions and nations involved, let alone the strategy, is difficult -- partly because this part of the region has been neglected by the Bush Administration, it's been off the radar for a lot of Americans. (The World had a great interview with Dennis Ross yesterday saying just that -- click on the "Diplomacy Review" link.) No excuse, but a lot of folks have short attention spans, I suppose. Anyway, Gilliard gives us a lot to think about in this post, and we really appreciate him sending it our way for everyone to read here at FDL. -- CHS]
Israeli planes pound Lebanon, 6 killed
By Alaa Shahine 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
BEIRUT (Reuters) – Israeli warplanes pounded south Lebanon on Tuesday, killing at least six people, as world efforts to defuse the crisis brought no signs of an early end to the week-old assault in retaliation against Hizbollah attacks.
The six civilians, all from one family, were killed during an air strike that hit a house shortly after midnight in a Lebanese border village. Israeli aircraft also hit Beirut’s southern suburb and an army position overlooking the capital.
The fighting was triggered when Hizbollah, the guerrilla group which is backed by
Syria and Iran and is part of Lebanon’s government, seized two Israeli soldiers and killed eight in a cross-border raid on northern Israel on July 12.
"We are working with our bare hands and so far we have recovered six bodies. More are still under the rubble," Salim Mourad, head of Aytaroun’s village municipality, told Hizbollah’s al-Manar television.
Let’s get a few things straight.
First, Hezbollah is not a constructive influence. I mean, they’re the Party of God. But they, like Hamas, exist because of Israeli meddling in local politics. They wanted to outwit the Amal and thus Hezbollah was born. They wanted to corner the PLO,and Hamas was born. They suckered the Israelis into an attack, one they were quite ready for.
Second: The Israelis are backing down. From destroying Hezbollah to asking them to set up a buffer zone is a major rhetorical climb down. Why? Because Hezbollah is ready to escalate the war if Israel does. And that came as a surprise. I think the Israelis and their US enablers believed too much of their own bullshit. So when Haifa gets rocketed, they’re stunned.
Three: The warmongers like William Kristol and the war dodging cowards at the New Republic are no friends of Israel. They won’t be on the end of the long range rockets and they won’t be cleaning up the mess afterwards. Bombing power stations in Lebanon didn’t force the Christians to turn on Hezbollah, but made them hate Israel and even more willing to turn a blind eye to Hezbollah. It was their kids being killed, not just the Shia of South Beirut.
Fourth: It’s called disproportionate violence because the Beirut Airport doesn’t have a Hezbollah Air Force wing there. Neither did the port of Tyre or the power station. I think the Israelis thought there would be an outcry to go after Hezbollah after they got bombed. However, Hezbollah was playing by Lebanese rules and protesting, not seizing the government in a gun fight. So the anger has turned towards Israel.
Fifth: Israel cannot afford a war. Their economy hasn’t been stable in years. Calling up the reserves and going north is expensive. They thought a little shock and awe would get what they wanted, and it isn’t anything close. Sure, they can beat Syria, but at what cost to the economy?
Sixth: Instead of weakening Hezbollah, this will strengthen them. What has happened so far? Israel has sent men to risk their lives to blow up gas stations, crater an airport and some docks and the rockets keep coming. Any mass Hezbollah casualities? No? However, Hezbollah has kidnapped two soldiers, attacked Haifa and escaped assassination.
The problem is that war cannot solve the problem Israel has with Hezbollah. They cannot fight a two or three front war. They need a buffer zone and no more attacks and that will only come from negotiations.
I think that’s dawning on the IDF commanders, that their force has limits, they’ve made their points, and every dead child seen on TV enhances their enemies. It may not be reflected in New York, but the EU looks aghast at this, and it doesn’t help Israel’s long term security
In fact, one might think Hezbollah wanted this attack, knowing the Israelis would react in such a disproportionate manner. One trick in warfare is to get your enemy to act in a predictable way, They knew an ambush and kidnapping would work to do just that.
While a lot of people are reflexively pro-Israel, they don’t get that Israel is being demographically engulfed by Arabs. If they want Israel to last, there has to be peace, meaningful, real peace. There will come a day when the Arabs can resist the IDF and after that, Israel will have no leverage.
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Kobe
OT…but Lieberman still Sucks
Fitz…..
i guess silence signals assent. . .
Right on, Steve!
It is high time for all of us to stop buying into the myth that Israels interests are our own.
We removed the Taliban from power in Afghanistan. (albeit temporarily)
Who’s going to remove the Talibangelicals from power in America?
Great post and helpful to me to get a glimmer of some ‘facts’. All this while Hillary says Israel has a right to defend itself. Which it does but with thought and forsight and clear heads – not bombs. And all the war wongers on T.V. keep talking about Iran, Iran-this, Iran did that —
The fact remains that for many politicians the idea to repeat what Gillard just posted would be to put a bullseye on them, i.e. what happened to Dean.
Steve! GrandmaJ! Leisure Guy! Kitt even!
Israel is half the size of the State of Indiana with a population the same size of Indiana — in world terms, it is teeny, very teeny. It’s difficult continuing being a bad-ass if you are a midget …
bonzarella at 4 — I wouldn’t say that silence equals assent. More like digestion of the post, and contemplation of response, while also watching the judiciary hearing proceedings with Alberto Gonzales testifying. I think we’re all a bit overwhelmed on news and potential scenarios and problems this morning. It’s hot, and things in the Middle East are a painful mess.
I’ve said before, and I will say again, there are a whole lot of shades of gray in all of this mess, and no real black and white. And we will all do well to remember that in anything we read — but shades of gray are difficult to encapsulate in short posts, which is why we’re trying to find bits and pieces for folks to contemplate. This is a difficult situation all around, and there are no easy answers.
For me, though, the story is how little the Bush Administration has done and has been doing in this part of the region — and how that neglect has hastened this deterioration. What a mess…
Solid posting, and spot on.
We need Democrats to stop reflexively supporting the Israeli government. Period.
We need to get more actively involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and we need to be neutral, and talk to all parties. We need to drop the “we don’t talk to terrorists” bullshit, and recognize that it has only marginalized us in the region. We need to normalize relations with Iran and Syria. We need to threaten to cut off aid to Israel if it doesn’t start acting like a grownup. And we need to cut off their aid if they don’t cooperate.
We need Democrats to come forward and take these positions, and we Progressives need to support them when they do. And of course chastise those Dems who don’t. God knows the goopers won’t be doing it, they are too in love with all of that Rapturist/Dominionist crap.
For the record I am supportive of Israel, of it’s right to exist, of the right of its people to live normal, happy, productive lives, etc. But I think Israel’s neighbors deserve better than the hand they’ve been dealt. And deserve those same things that Israelis do.
“Instead of weakening Hezbollah, this will strengthen them.”
Yes. And that may have been just what Hezbollah needed. The group was started in 1982 as a more anti-semitic version of Amal and made a reputation for the militia that really thought against Israel, wearing down the IDF so much that it had to retreat from Lebanon. If this view is objective or not doesn’t matter, that’s how Lebanese view them. Check Lebanese bloggers and Angry Arab.
But now the political wing of Hezbollah is participating in government, and I guess now their followers see that the party of god isn’t so much different from other corrupt politicians. And it didn’t make any wonders happen, either. At the same time , the Israeli retreat deminished the chances of the military arm to maintain their reputation as freedom fighters. So, the escalation plays into the hands of Nazrallah. It proves that Hezbollah is still an active and not powerless (rockets on Haifa!) enemy of Israel. And the other militias look increasingly weak now, especially the regular army, because they can’t do anything to protect the people.
Really, from a strategical point of view, this large-scale bombing campaign is achieving nothing in the war on terror. But, on the other hand, maybe this isn’t its objective at all, maybe this is all about destabilizing neighboring countries in order to keep them weak. Devide et impera.
If it takes $10/gal gas to make our country stop being the puppet of Israel, it will be worth it.
Great to see Steve over here. As spotty as his electoral predictions are :) there’s nary a blogger on these internets whose politico-military analyses are more bang-on.
I would like to congratulate FireDogLake for having had a continuing civilized discussion of the MidEast news without degenerating into nuclear-level flamewars … let us all continue the decency here while discussing the atrocities over there …
“thought”?!
Hmm, they fought without much thought, of course.
Civilian targets are against Geneva.
Great breakdown Steve. Thanks for the analysis.
Howie Kurtz takes a harder line on blogger criticism of Bush, though:
I disagree. While Bush can’t stop old animosities from bubbling up, he can certainly step in to try and defuse situations. Clearly he hs refused to do that, essentially abdicating any responsibility an American president has over global peace.
BREAKING: Bush blocked probe into anti-terror spying
Oh. Shit. This cannot stand.
*ilson46201, Israel is a midget? A nuclear power aligned with “the West”. That ain’t no midget. That’s dangerous – a “bad-ass” as you say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192036.stm
“Civilian targets are against Geneva.”
Yes, there are some exceptions of course (if a city is declared a fortified position, for instance), but imho powerhouses and lighthouses, who aren’t of military importance and not operated nor occupied by beligerent forces aren’t among them. If the Israelis don’t come up with a good explanation, this ought to be treated as a war crime.
ilson 16 – I hear ya – there’s good stuff at TPM cafe, but still all this reflexive reactive defensiveness Israelwise – who drives this emotional nonreality thing? More of my friends than not are Jewish, we talk a lot about all this, they fucking HATE what is going on, hated it for a long time.
“There will come a day when the Arabs can resist the IDF and after that, Israel will have no leverage.”
When Iranians (who are admittedly not Arabs) can build missiles capable of badly damaging an Israeli Navy ship that day is rapidly approaching. As far as Iran is concerned it may in fact already be here.
as a progressive, I am apalled at pundits that must find a reason to condemn the Israeli’s war of independence.
You must have never been fired upon to have such a stance. Before you open up and start spewing venom on another, you might try to imagine rockets landing on your friends homes, or suicide bombers, or armies on your land, for 60 years.
Truly embarrassing that a people trying to be free must be condemned by their enemies, and friends that have benefitted from the same kind of revolution. If we forget how freedom is won, we will not value it, and we certainly won’t keep it. How many countries are there that get to vote and have multiple candidates?
but the funniest thing, and least thought out by this post, that one can’t destroy Hizbollah? Are you blind? Do you really believe that this matters when you are defending your life?
When Gilliard is on he is spot on. Hezbolla was hoping for this disproportionate response and they got it. Of the 200 Lebanese killed how many of them have been actual Hezbolla fighters? Almost none because they knew what the Israelis would do and were prepared. Now they are just waiting for the ground invasion.
We are going to have to impeach and disgrace forever both Bush and Cheney and their whole crew and their entire planet-destroying agenda. I don’t know how this is going to happen, but happen it must. Let’s start visualizing it.
I disagree. I do not buy into the notion that Israel has committed so many miscalculations. I think they know quite well what they need to do and are willing to do it. The wild card in the situation is George himself, who (as many of us have noticed) is enjoying slinging the shit at diplomatic events and may withdraw what Kristol et al have promised as unlimited support. But I doubt that will happen. For this event to be truly useful politically in the United States … WHICH IS WHAT IT IS FOR, it has to last for more than a week and has to involve a backing down of Syria and Iran.
Let’s face it; the war party in America is resolved to get back at Iran for the humiliation they bestowed on the U.S. during the Carter administration. Add to that the pretext of preventing a budding nuclear power from emerging, and you have all the Neocons need to keep the conflagration going for a while.
“We need to get more actively involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and we need to be neutral, and talk to all parties.”
Inho, yes. For instance, Dems could point out that the peaceful part of the Lebanese population is needed for helping in the war on terror and keeping the terrorits out of control. Last year, they were the heros of the Cedar Revilution and the new allies of Bush’s campaign to democratize the Middle East. Bombing that very same people now doesn’t make any sense, and will only lead to hatred and a wave of new followerrs for the terrorists.
It should be possible to spread this message without running a risk to be painted as ‘weak on terror’ or ’supporting terrorists’!
Oh, please. Of course you can have a “flame-free discussion” of the Israel-Hezbollah situation when all of the people in the discusison agree that Israel is the aggressor, israel is in the wrong, Israel deliberately targets civilians while Hezbollah does not – in other words, when there are no commentors with the temerity to say y’all are full of it.
This site started out as a must-read for intelligent and cogent legal analysis, with just enough lightweight political snark to be amusing. It’s slowly but surely devolved into an ego-feeding, self-satisfied in-group clique long on lightweight snark and echo-chamber conventional wisdom, and low on actual hard analysis.
I’ve watched as commentors who don’t agree with whatever the Fannish Pronouncement of the Day is get flamed until they leave, and then everyone sits around and pats themselves on the back for preserving the purity of FDL’s wonderfulness.
FDL used to be one of my must-reads multiple times every day. But this one-sided facile non-discussion of the latest Mid-East imbroglio, based on an article by a blogger who (though an excellent fellow in many ways) has been consistently WRONG in both his political predictions and his geopolitical prognostications, just encapsulates what a sad amen chorus this place has turned into.
‘Bye.
Israel is a small country with a small population with no remarkable natural resources — such factors render it fundamentally weak (midget) in the long run. Alliances and cooperation are quite needed by such teeny entities … badass behavior will not protect them forever…
Quick post on Gonzalez’s admission that Bush personally stopped the probe into the NSA spying program.
I seriously can’t believe Gonzalez admitted that in a public hearing. Unbelievable.
Israel cannot afford a war.
It can indeed, thanks to US taxpayers and AIPAC owned senators.
It is US economic and military aid to Israel that makes the conflict Israel has with Palestinians intractable. Hezbollah represents the majority of Shi’a in Lebanon, the largest political group in the country, who also happen to be the poorest and least represented historically. Hezbollah will be almost impossible to destroy without also destroying the Shi’a themselves, which many would consider to be mass murder. The US should suspend all aid to Israel until it begins returning to its 1956 borders, which, in interests of peace, the US should guarantee security for. It is US military aid to Israel that makes all US citizens partly responsible for the conflict and is why we must insist our government stop providing the materiel Israel uses to make war.
DiFi re: Specter’s new FISA….
Why doesn’t Pres submit NSA to FISA NOW? (It IS within current law/statute…)
Gonzo: wriggle, like the slime I am.
as a progressive, I am apalled at pundits that must find a reason to condemn the Israeli’s war of independence.
This was a joke right?
Israel wants one thing Greater Israel and they will use US money, weapons and possibly blood to acheive it. http://antiwar.com/justin/
How do we get the Israelis out of our government?
Hillary is a hawk because that’s where the money is. It is so obvious that the democrats can’t offer up a viable anti war candidate because that ain’t where the money is.
Both parties are bending to the bucks. And the bucks back Israel.
This whole “shock and awe” concept is utter nonsense from the neocons. I guess that’s not so surprising from a cabal that gets their military expertise from playing Risk and Stratego.
Overwhelming force has been tried throughout military history and it rarely, if ever, works to destroy an enemy on their homeland. Did the Jews surrender to overwhelming Roman force at Masada? No, they committed mass suicide instead.
More recently, the Allies used massive bombing of the Ruhr area in Germany during WWII, thinking if we completely destroyed the Germans’ manufacturing base they’d surrender. What happened instead was it hardened their resolve and they become even more determined to fight on.
Nation States do not have friends, only interests.
Israel thinks it’s interests are served by drawing the USA into a wider Middle East conflict.
GW Bush thinks it is in his interest for Israel to give him an excuse to attack Iran.
Iran knows that letting Hezbollah flex it’s muscles against Israel is in Iran’s interest.
Bush is insane, Israel screwed up, and Iran might overplay it’s hand — but there is no question that Iran is the big winner in all of this. Especially the Iranian hard liners, who are almost begging Bush to bomb Iran.
Welcome to the Bushpocalypse, Release 2.0 –
Oh, and collective punishment = nazi mind. Period. Can you say Fallujah? Hunter Thompson was right.
The whole disease of all this finally comes to fdl boards. Humans did not properly solve the Holocaust and here we are at the next war.
This just in, from the STFU Historical Archives Department.
_________________
“…Regime change in Iraq would bring about a number of benefits to the region. When the gravest of threats are eliminated, the freedom-loving peoples of the region will have a chance to promote the values that can bring lasting peace. As for the reaction of the Arab “street,” the Middle East expert Professor Fouad Ajami predicts that after liberation, the streets in Basra and Baghdad are “sure to erupt in joy in the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans.” Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of Jihad. Moderates throughout the region would take heart. And our ability to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process would be enhanced, just as it was following the liberation of Kuwait in 1991…”
Dick Cheney, August 2002
‘In his weekly radio address on March 5, 2005, George W. Bush celebrated “remarkable developments” in the Middle East. “In the last five months, we have witnessed successful elections in Afghanistan, the Palestinian Territory and Iraq; peaceful demonstrations on the streets of Beirut; and steps toward democratic reform in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The trend is clear: In the Middle East and throughout the world, freedom is on the march.”‘
Tim Grieve, Salon.com
_____
Yeah, America is REAL helpful.
“Now they are just waiting for the ground invasion.”
I don’t think the IDF will really invade southern Lebanon. Firstly, check Haaretz and other Israeli sources, the Israelis don’t want to repeat the bloody adventure of 1982. Their memory of it seems to be equivalent to the Vietnam trauma in the US.
Secondly, directly after the kidnapping, a platoon entered Lebanon in pursuit of the Hezbollah fighter. They ran into an ambush and one tank was blown up by a mine or an IED. So, obviously, Hezbollah did prepare the battlefield for exactly this ecentualitiy. I don’t think the IDF will be eager to send their drafted soldiers into such an uncertainty. And what would be gained by it anyway? They surely don’t want to occupy large parts of Lebanon for a longer time. Remember they retreated from Gaza because it way too high a burden on the army. And Hezbollah fighter just have to retreat and mingle with the civilians in order to escape capturing. Imho the IDF doesn’t have good cards for the ground game, and they know that.
“This whole “shock and awe” concept is utter nonsense from the neocons.”
Shock and awe simply doesn’t work in an environment where people are accustomed to violence.
CaseyL at 30 — you know, I don’t believe either Jane or I has placed the blame solely on Israel at any point in time. If you have a factual disagreement with someone in the comments, and the information to back up your position, you are more than welcome to state it. I’ve said a number of times since all of this flared up that there are no clean hands in any of this — that includes Syria, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Iran, Hamas and about a bazillion other splinter/interest groups, including members of the Saudi royal family. This situation is complex, and emotionally charged for a lot of people who have friends and family in teh region or who have long-standing ties to one side or the other. And American interests are clearly at issue in this based on our long-standing commitments to Israel and our efforts toward peace from the Carter Administration (and before) forward.
But to walk off in a huff from a discussion because people don’t agree with you…well, that’s just wrong. And I tire of having to explain to people that posts are simply the start of conversation, not the end of them. So long as people stick to the issues and refrain from invective and nastiness, the comments are a great discussion and give and take. To not participate only ensures that your point of view is not heard. And whose fault is that, then?
And if $10/gal gas takes Hillary down too, I am snoopydancing. Time to get the freak real and start playing well with our fellow imperfect others on this planet.
I think this is a decent analysis of the current Hezbollah-Israeli conflict.
However, I don’t think it quite captures how Hezbollah and Hamas came into existence. They were not simply the result of Israel meddling in local politics. They were born of the Israeli military occupation of southern Lebanon (hezbollah) and gaza and the west bank (hamas).
Their creation is important in understanding why Lebanese and Palestinian civilians – the great majority of them are nowhere near as radical as Hezbollah and Hamas – tend to support these groups when Israel attacks civilian targets.
The worse the situation gets for the average civilian, the more desperate and hopeless the civilian population feels. Hamas and Hezbollah were born of this condition. It is one of the important reasons why they receive greater support when Israel attacks civilian targets.
Nevertheless, I think this analysis supports Steve’s post.
“Israel wants one thing Greater Israel and they will use US money, weapons and possibly blood to acheive it.”
My suspicion, too. And Olmert may really have that in mind. But what’s Peretz role in this charade? Or is he so dumb that the right wingers can simply use him as a tool?
oldtree–
I understand your point, but 60 years ago, the land didn’t belong to the Isralis–they took it by force after the British left.
This fact has little to do with the third generation Israelis living there now, but getting high and mighty about the original land grab is a little extreme.
OT: 3 Arrested in Hospital Deaths After Katrina
A doctor and two nurses have been arrested and booked on suspicion of second-degree murder in connection with the deaths of patients at a medical center in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina struck, a spokeswoman for the Louisiana attorney general’s office said today.
The arrests were part of the culmination of an investigation into accusations that patients might have been euthanized at the Memorial Medical Center in the aftermath of the hurricane. “I won’t say it has ended yet,” said the spokeswoman, Kris Wartelle, reached by telephone. “There could be more things coming down the pike.”
. . .
This administration is not the first to “neglect this region”. I have spent time in Palestine. I think things are painted with too broad a brush when it comes to American’s knowledge of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I know Palestinian families in Israel who have had their land taken away, land that has been in the family for over 100 years. I have seen the camps, the 80% unemployment, the abject poverty. These things among others, over forty years will make people crazy yet the Palistinians have managed for the most part, to maintain a ‘non-violent’ resistance to occupation. Hamas and Hezbollah have both arisen in a vacuum of negligence, Colonialism, racism, and a number of other factors. Neither side is without ’sin’ but you can’t treat people like animals and expect thenm to ‘behave’. These groups are problematic on many levels but in fact, they wouldn’t have come to the power and influence they have if Palestinians were treated like PEOPLE. During my time in Israel I was treated with such warmth and hospitality by Palestinian families I was overwhelmed. This is my experience and of course , my opinion.
Imho the IDF doesn’t have good cards for the ground game, and they know that.
I’ll buy that for now. But after the bellicose crap that has been spewed by so many Israeli leaders over the last few days about not stopping until Hezbollah is destroyed when it becomes clear that their “clean little air war” is not going to doing they may be forced by their own rhetoric to take that step.
Don’t let the door hit ya, Casey. Yes we don’t just opine here, we love each other. Sorry.
Christy:
What happened to my post that shoulda come up at 9:15?
as I put it pithily yesterday: Occupation is a bitch.
Norske at 54 — I don’t know. Will check the filter…just a minute. Was working on my next post…
Gray @30
Inho, yes. For instance, Dems could point out that the peaceful part of the Lebanese population is needed for helping in the war on terror and keeping the terrorits out of control.
Except there is no War on Terror. There’s just some neocons, dismantling our Constitution and using terrorism as a justification for it.
There are factions in Israel that are not content to live within the 1967 borders. They believe that have a mandate from G-d to take over all of the territory ever historically controlled by Jews (aka Greater Israel)…this includes Israel proper, Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai, and parts of Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. And these factions are driving the lack of peace with the Palestinians.
We need to stop aligning ourselves with these factions. Because the Muslims living all around Israel understand the implications of our uncritical support.
Admittedly the situation is complexified by countries like Iran and Syria taking sides, and fighting Israel by proxy. Part of it is that they have never come to terms with Israel’s right to exist within the 1967 borders. Part of it is a reaction to the Greater Israel movement. Part of it is just a desire by Iran and Syria to expand their interests in the region.
The US *should* be a friend of Israel. But we can be a better friend by ending our reflexive support of whatever misguided policies the Israeli government might be voluntarily pursuing. (And I don’t think Olmert’s government is in the Greater Israel camp, but they are making bad decisions that benfit those factions who are).
Oh and for the concern trolls, I don’t see anyone flaming you off of FDL. Try discussing the issue like an adult, and see what happens.
Reading Billion’s latest this morning, I was horrified and dumbstruck. Iran is starting to scare it’s Arab neighbors, which is not a good thing.
Regional destabilization benefits no one — except Iran, and the Iranian hardliners. Since that fact requires a bit of nuance to understand, there is no way it will ever be entertained between the ears of the Decider in Chief.
God. Help. Us. All.
The fate of the world is in the hands of a narcissistic sociopath.
“I understand your point, but 60 years ago, the land didn’t belong to the Isralis–they took it by force after the British left.”
An important point! And why did the Brits leave? Ehy, because they were weary of the continuos attacks by jewish terrorists, like Menachem Begin! Check the history books, look for ‘King David Hotel Bomb’.
Every time the Israelis are condemning terorism, the whole world should shout back: Hypocrissy!
Norske — there’s nothing in the moderation queue. Maybe there was a hiccup on the server?
“Except there is no War on Terror. There’s just some neocons, dismantling our Constitution and using terrorism as a justification for it.”
Sadly, yes. But there are real terrorists and there should be a real campaign against them, conducted by professionals: The international crime units of all civilized countries. Why don’t the US take the lead in organizing this?
Let’s get a few OTHER things straight.
This piece was written by someone who just read a book leading him to believe that no one’s ever had his thoughts about this subject before.
This piece was written by someone who also doesn’t consider that regurgitating these ideas doesn’t actually mean anything to the people who are actually involved in this conflict, most of whom will tell him he hasn’t gotten the actual facts to begin with.
This piece was written by someone who believes that it’s better to err on the side of support for “resistance” groups than that of governments, because all governments are interested in is institutionalized violence and therefore untrustworthy and deserving of what they get. Israel is most wrong not because of what they do, but because it’s more romantic to believe in the stated causes of groups who oppose their alleged warmongering.
Just wanted to get some things straight.
I am guessing that someone isn’t aware that it was Hez or Hiz, depending on who prints it, that started the rocket attack in Israel.
and just in case any of you have forgotten, Israel has given back territory captured in each war they have been involved in. They have never started one, they have only defended themselves in each case. All of their neighbors harbor terrorists that they use to attack Israel. It has always been so. Is this okay with you too?
what about the rockets being fired into Israel? they are targeting anything they can strike, right?
and Israel is trying to minimize casualties to the combatants as best as they can?
I am beginning to wonder if it is anti-semitism that is driving the conversation here. You are condemning a country trying to defend themselves, and apparently, supporting a group of people that don’t care who they kill.
on this alone you should feel some shame. As someone who has the right to talk as a result of our little war of independence, you might want to explore the meaning of ethnic hatred within your own personality
When a young boy sees his little sister obliterated by a bomb he will grow up and pray for the day he can get revenge. It does not take a PhD in Psychology to understand this simple fact.
My prediction is that one day these kids will take out their revenge against Israel and the United States.
We should remember that Mohammad Atu was primarily motivated by anger over the Isreali treatment of Palestinians and anger with America for supporting Israeli agression.
Matt Browner-Hamlin says: “Bush blocked probe into anti-terror spying”
July 18th, 2006 at 8:52 am
Did he block the probe at the behest of others?
“The US *should* be a friend of Israel. But we can be a better friend by ending our reflexive support of whatever misguided policies the Israeli government might be voluntarily pursuing.”
YES! A real friend doesn’t stand by, simply watching while his mate is conducting irresponsible actions that will harm him in the long run.
Did sharkbabe just prove Casey’s point?
Call me cynical if you wish (please…I’ve been called much worse) but observing the politics of this region only confirms my opinion that organized religion in its most extreme and radical form is more a Real Estate play than anything else.
Real estate and money.
First religion will offer either salvation for your sins (Psych. projection) or self-righteous absolutism for the occupation of your mind, heart and soul.
Hardly a fair exchange.
It is only the first spot or ‘estate’ occupied on the Monopoly board.
For as long as we are tied to Terra Firma and stay rooted in this hateful occupation of mind, body and soul, we will face the planet’s most volatile peril.
…imagine there is no religion…-John Lennon
Americans fought our War of Independence to drive out foreign rule — in Israel’s case, it was foreigners driving out indigenous inhabitants who are still pissed about it — Occupation is a bitch.
There is a large Lebanese Christian community in my home state. They are generally prosperous hard working conservative people who are heavilly rethug. I know one family in which every member proudly voted for the shrub twice. I wonder if they have thought about those votes now that Israel has extended it’s bombing into Xtian areas?
Norske –
It’s always a good idea to do a ’select all’ and ‘copy’ before trying to post, especially with something long and thoughtful — sometimes I even remember to do it!
btw — did you see my comment (yesterday?) with the little bits of Gothic-Svear-Rus-Vineland factoids? it was in amongst a Pax Romana discussion.
Why is what’s happening in the Middle East such a horror for the world, honestly? As I see it the oil supply is threatened, which could have an economic impact. There are strong ties between Americans and the region, so the fighting there is tragic and personal. Finally, our military is bogged down in Iraq and could get destroyed by getting caught up in a wide conflict.
Aside from those points, how exactly is a Middle Eastern war between any number of players a world-wide disaster? Isn’t it more like the Bosnia-Croatia-Serbia war? Or maybe what’s happening in Russia with Chechnya?
There are a lot of emotions tied up in what’s going on but the geopolitics seem less severe to me than people like Newt Gingrich would have us believe. During the Cold War Israel and the Arab countries were proxy armies for us and the Russians, so it was a big deal back then. Today it just seems like another tragic regional conflict, not “World War III” (I thought the cool PNAC kids called the Cold War WWIII).
Leahy follows up DiFi’s point re: submitting NSA to FISA now.
Gonzo admits: Yeah. But I wonder about jurisdiction.
me: jurisdiction? huh? but me no lawyer.
Yes, by all means call everyone who disagrees with you an anti-Semite oldtree.
No one here (from what I’ve read) has anything against Jews, Judaism, or Israel existing within the 1967 borders. The issues involve the military adventurism in a neighboring country, for no apparent reason. Of course Israel has a right to defend itself. But defending yourself does not mean attacking a third party (Lebanon) that has no military power to stop the agressors (Hezbollah). And this is a major part of the problem. Israel continually overreacts when they are attacked.
think progress has the clip;
gonzales says the president PERSONALLY rescinded the security clearances of the investigation into the nsa spying on Americans
Hezbollah is still denying that they fired the first two rockets at Haifa which, by the way, only killed one fence. Could the Israelis have staged this initial incident to substantiate continued aggression? Yes they could have, especially if there was a predetermined plan to expand the hostilities to include Syria and Iran. We must watch our government closely because it is looking for an excuse to enter this conflict; however, the provocation justifying such action does not yet exist. It would not surprise me if the cruise ship that’s being used for evacuating Americans did not experience an incident that is attributed to Hezbollah. “Remember the Maine! type incident. Bush/Cheney are not trustworthy.
OT–Leahy bringing up the recruitment of skinheads and the notion of homegrown terrorists.
Abu knows nothing about it– finds it hard to believe.
Yes we don’t just opine here, we love each other.
Sharkbabe, as I visualize Firedoglake as a beautiful sailing ship, I see you, dear, as her figurehead.
oldtree at 63 — I understand that personal emotions on this issue tend to run high, but don’t throw out accusations of anti-semitism where they aren’t warranted. Criticizing national policies of Isreal does not differ from critiquing the national policies of Iran, or Ukraine, or anywhere else — it’s just that often when someone tries to do so, the anti-semitism flag gets thrown down. And I, for one, find that disingenuous, having had a number of friends (including one serious almost fiance) who are Jewish and who have NOT agreed with Israeli Likud and other policies through the years.
Disagreement with or discussion about policy decisions has nothing to do with religious belief. And we would all do well to remember that.
That said, some folks have come dangerously close on remarks about “dual citizenship” and other comments on Israeli policies the last few days. And I am going to exercise my ability to moderate on those posts that I find questionable, because I will not tolerate stuff that is even remotely close to the anti-semitism line. Period. (That goes for anti-Islamic as well.) Stick to policy discussions, and not to ethnic generalizations folks. I mean it.
Throwing blame around never solves anything. I like Christy’s statement about many shades of gray, and as she points out, they are painted by many hands.
It’s sad for me to see that there is no lasting peace there. As human beings we have the capacity to solve as many problems as we create. We have seen so many times that when people pull together, how powerful the solution can be.
I’m an idealist. The human condition is one we all share. How we manifest the intelligence and power that the universe bestows us is up to us. We know better, we know what the choices are, and the choice is up to us to either stand by and destroy each other, or we could pull together and solve the problems.
I realize there are many issues that need to be addressed. The scars of this conflict are deep, and touch the pysche of the souls of the nations involved. They have to be adressed to promote the healing that’s needed.
The blame game never solved any problems. Responsiblity has to be taken by all the people who created this misery. I hope that one day that will happen.
Christy 45:
.
Because of your recent comments on the subject, I’ve tempered my own tone just a bit. Not my position, but my style of expressing myself here at FDL on this issue. The criticism of you is without any foundation what.so.ever.
Coulter-like Accusations of anti-semitism are designed to shut down legitimate debate…
FDLers welcome all truth…even that which is most painful about ourselves. Go elsewhere for the kool-aid.
“I am guessing that someone isn’t aware that it was Hez or Hiz, depending on who prints it, that started the rocket attack in Israel.”
Wrong guess. Steve stated that Hezbollah had an interest in starting this war, and the comments seem to support this view.
“Israel has given back territory captured in each war they have been involved in.”
Hmm, all territory?
“They have never started one, they have only defended themselves in each case.”
Excuse me pls, I seem to remember at least one preemptive war? Afaik modern Historians don’t support your statement.
“All of their neighbors harbor terrorists that they use to attack Israel.”
Egypt? You wanna tell us they don’t do enough against terrorism?
“what about the rockets being fired into Israel? they are targeting anything they can strike, right?”
You feel ok using the same methods as those Hezbollah terrorists?
“and Israel is trying to minimize casualties to the combatants as best as they can?”
By bombing roads, bridges, powerhouses, lighthouses, factories and border crossing in central and northern Lebanon?
“I am beginning to wonder if it is anti-semitism that is driving the conversation here.”
Same old, same old. Everytime Israel is critizised, some guys say that’s anti-semitism. You used that trick way too often, this pig doesn’t fly as easily anymore.
“You are condemning a country trying to defend themselves, and apparently, supporting a group of people that don’t care who they kill.”
Again, Israel doesn’t really try to kill the terorists or else they would invade southern Lebanon. And they don’t only use pinpoint attacks on Hezbollah outposts. Instead, the IDF is bombing roads, bridges, powerhouses, lighthouses, factories and border crossing in central and northern Lebanon.
“on this alone you should feel some shame. As someone who has the right to talk as a result of our little war of independence, you might want to explore the meaning of ethnic hatred within your own personality”
Ad hominem as the discussion weapon of last resort?
Sry for fisking you, but it was necessary. Such nonsense shouldn’t stand unanswered.
Gonzo not admitting to tapping journos, but tap dancing as fast as he can.
For those commenters who say “they started it” —
There are no good actors on this stage — everyone’s hands are dirty. Israel, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, the USA, everyone has dirty hands.
The USA used to have credibility as an honest broker, but that has been bled away by the Bush fantasies in Iraq.
oldtree says at 63
PLEASE, let’s not start with the you must agree with Israel’s actions or you are antisemitic. One should be able to discuss the motivations and consequences of all parties involved in this mess without being called names. Not to understand that are legitimate issues and problems on both sides is naive, if not delusional. So let’s try to keep this from devolving into personal attacks. If we can’t listen to other points of view, then how can we ever expect compromises that might end the suffering in the region (on both sides).
Loosehead:
I am sick at heart about your puppy. I know it happens, but it is always awful and such a waste.
Note on colostrum and immunity: they only need the first day or two, which Mittens got, for the colostrum. After that, formula is fine. (I can repost my favorite formula, if you want.)
My advice? Put that puppy under your (LHP’s) sweater and carry it around with you most of the time. It’ll be fine.
It doesn’t need a mother who is so messed up right now.
And singletons are sometimes the most tuned in and remarkable dogs.
Should I keep my opinion of STBEx to myself? Let us say that as a breeder, my take is that only those people who do not take their eyes off the babies for the first ten days are experts. Basement? I don’t think so.
This means either separating mom and pups so you can sleep, or tag-teams of puppy watchers.
And Grandma, I have to take exception to your characterization of all men as not having the mothering thing, although I sure know plenty of those dogs-belong-in-the-back-yard-unless-we’re-out-huntin’ types. Match ‘em up with a wife who likes white carpet and you’ve got yourself a dog that should be somewhere else.
Mr. Little Dog has it, for both human and canine wee ones. And he’s no metro-sexual mister, either. :) He’s a big ol’ Alpha Dog, whom teenagers fear, and other men respect.
I had his handsome self pegged, though, when, on one of our first dates, he crossed his legs, revealing a Care Bears sticker, stuck to the bottom of his shoe. :)
If he had a nickel for every night he’s been the puppy watcher, he could buy himself a much younger wife!
I believe a custody fight for little Mittens is called for. I’ll testify for you. :)
Damn! Good on Pat Leahy! “This Administration at some point in time needs to stop blaming everything on the Clinton Administration, and start taking responsibility for its own actions.” Mwahahaha. Good on Leahy!
digs at Leahy: about intel, you know Sen….
(old story ref)
LEAHY indignant.
“Sharkbabe, as I visualize Firedoglake as a beautiful sailing ship, I see you, dear, as her figurehead.”
As a regular lurker here, may I be the ship’s ghost? I already have the right color!
:D
Well, 2 brush fires are burning for Israel. Palestinians/Hamas, and up north, Hezbollah.
1. Palestinians: I give Israel a big fat “F” in this problem. Looong ago Israel should’ve taken the high road, settled with these folks, given them back their land (much of it occupied via goofball Netanayu’s policies), and let the palestinians get on with life. Sure, there’s some palestinians who write “death to Israel”, and all that. And there ARE some idiot palestinians who terrorize israel….but I still think if they’d get their land back, slowly but surely the violence would subside.
2. Hezbollah: now, they’re another problem. They really don’t have any land claims. There’s no “hezbollah-land” that they want returned. Hezbollah just has one mission in life: kill the jews. Kinda hard to deal with those types! But, a few years back, Israel should’ve, VERY quietly, started dealing with the Lebanese gov’t. Help make them stronger and all. That would’ve helped the gov’t deal with Hezbollah more effectively. It would take time and patience.
Mr. Gilliard is correct…the intial Israeli plan to eliminate Hezbollah via airstrikes won’t work. You can bomb the crap out of them…but like cockroaches, they’ll come back. I have NO sympathy for Hezbollah, but that old phrase “boots on the ground” is the only way to handle Hezbollah. Israel shouldn’t do that…but, in time, a stronger Lebanese Army could.
Ghostman
Abu disputes the 700 number signing statements and says it’s closer to 110 -125; brings up Clinton’s 300 . Always the Clinton card.
leahy says the preznit is not following the law.
sessions says it’s much ado about little or nothing.
Brian Williams on Countdown last nite repeated several times that this is an Israeli plan five years in the making. It seems to me that W is complicit in this, having helped get Syria out of Lebanon, and then abandoned any support for the Lebanese government.
The continued neocon fantasy — propogated by Kristol et al that this is our good war — has brought us to the brink, and crippled the only world actor who’s ever been able to help move peace forward, the American President.
These treasonous fucktards may just fry us all, or part of that which I consider us, we humans. Fuck them and send them the fuck to Nuremberg for a trial on their war crimes. W, Cheney, Abu, Rumsfeld, et al, like that foto darkblack did of them in the dock….
Great post, Steve, and welcome to the ‘lake, where, as you can see, we are all of one opinion, and re-state it lovingly to one another over and over….
I think #3 doesn’t get anywhere near enough attention.
The Israeli government is so used to having their strategic interests treated as US strategic interests that they probably no longer think about the fact that the divergences cut both ways. The problem is, when Kristol et al talk about “protecting Israel” they’re not talking about the boring, tedious, tricky business of protecting the lives and livelihoods of actual human beings (let alone those icky Palestinians). They’re talking about protecting the symbolic nature of the state, and the power (and military capacity and proximity to oil) that the state imparts to the people who run it. I don’t think Bill Kristol cares very much whether anyone — Arab or Jew — can comfortably live there.
Ha. It just occurred to me that this one thing I can give Lieberman full credit for — he seems to be sincere in his desire to protect Israelis.
oldtree, I think Gideon Levy wants to have a word with you over at Ha’aretz…
2 posts – no points – just stone throwing.
Maybe a point or question before calling people racist, and in reviewing the posts the one or two knee-jerk posters have not even posted that sort of thing that can be ignored.
Just to clarify, I don’t think Hezbollah, Iran and Syria are “nice”. They are certainly not innocent. And whether or not they “started” the current cycle of violence, I think it’s pretty fair to say that they are not merely looking for peaceful coexistence.
But whether or not they are “nice”, the US still needs to engage them in dialogue, or the region will never, ever know peace.
To all here I say think about these words from Michae Lerner …
Food for thought…
Larry
And your little dog too … – Yeah, I did ‘overstate’ the issue about men and dogs. I am sure than many men cherish and worry about their dogs as much as women. My mistake.
Obviously, this soon-to-be ex doesn’t quite get the dog’s and puppy issues and was generalizing. Always a bad idea. I liked your idea about carrying the dog around. I was given a 3 week old kitty that had been abandoned by mom and I made a little pouch for him and I wore it around my neck for 2 weeks. They really grow up bonded.
Appreciate the correction about men. Been divorced 27 years — too long to be objective I guess. :)
Holy crap — Alice Fisher is going through approval for the full Senate now? She got out of the Judiciary Committee? When did THAT happen, without a stink? Jeebus…
If we disagree, which we will, it is par for the course. That we act with comity in these disagreements is key.
We can have strong opinions and differing points of view and still respect one another. That’s what people who care about eachother do.
Casey’s strong opinion may or may not be shared by others here, but I support his willingness to step out on an unpopular limb.
I appreiciate civility but I love bravery.
I am beginning to wonder if it is anti-semitism that is driving the conversation here.
please.
everyone’s to blame – and that includes israel. they are not blameless in any of this, since 1948.
not only am i not anti-semitic, virtually ALL of my closest friends are jewish. they love israel and i want them to have their homeland. but i don’t want it to be run by militant jerks any more than i want my country to be run by them, either.
that doesn’t make me anti-semitic. it makes me concerned. figure out the difference before you start casting aspersions on people who care deeply about resolving this issue.
and great gilliard post, by the way – whenever it involves geopolitical military issues, he is the go-to man. no question.
Great post Steve. As Cristy pointed out it’s inconceivable that this administration has not been able to deal with this crisis. What pisses me off the most is that all these killings being commited on Leabanese civilians are carried out using my tax dollars.
“Hezbollah is still denying that they fired the first two rockets at Haifa which, by the way, only killed one fence. Could the Israelis have staged this initial incident to substantiate continued aggression?”
Yes, but I don’t think so. Their surprise seemed to be genuine. It would have been foolish to stage a rocket impact at a site believed to be out of reach for Katyushas. If they would have pulled this stunt,they would have chosen a border town as target. No way they would have presented this in a way that actually helps increasing Hezbollahs image among the Lebanese.
WHAT?
Alice Fisher?
Writing to DiFi now about that, don’t remember hearings.
Do they still have confirmation hearings on Capitol Hill?
Some dem early in the hearing said that Alice needed to be confirmed. Teddy? Leahy? don’t remember but I was surprised.
Whoever this guy is don’t know abut 1st Amend.
From the the genius of H.L. Mencken (it seemed applicable to this thread):
Mencken’s Creed
I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind, that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking.
I believe that no discovery of fact, however trivial, can be wholly useless to the race, and that no trumpeting of falsehood, however virtuous in intent, can be anything but vicious.
I believe that all government is evil, in that all government must necessarily make war upon liberty.
I believe that the evidence for immortality is no better than the evidence of witches, and deserves no more respect.
I believe in the complete freedom of thought and speech.
I believe in the capacity of man to conquer his world, and to find out what it is made of, and how it is run.
I believe in the reality of progress.
I believe that it is better to tell the truth than to lie.
I believe that it is better to be free than to be a slave.
And I believe that it is better to know than be ignorant.
…words to live by
Many thanks to Steve Gilliard and FDL for addressing this issue from the standpoint of reality–and for having the courage to do it.
Little Dog at 86
(quiet voice) What happened with the puppy?
Well said ! commenter Tennessean on your 107
Tennessean at 107 — we’re hoping to have a few more guest posts on the issue from some others points of view as well. As I’ve said repeatedly, this is really complex and many shades of gray, and the more discussion from various perspectives we can contemplate, the better for everyone in terms of trying to find any clarity in this mess.
And the better to understand the harm caused by this Administration’s neglect of these issues the last five years as they pointed their gaze elsewhere. Multi-tasking is not their forte, let’s just say that up front…
“They really don’t have any land claims. There’s no “hezbollah-land” that they want returned. Hezbollah just has one mission in life: kill the jews.”
You seem to have mised the info that the kidnapping was meant to be a lever to break free some Lebanese from Israeli jails, especially Samir Qantar, who is still inprisoned because of a 1979 terrorist act. Israel refused to let him free because they want to exchange him for information about that IDF pilot that was shot down over Lebanon in the 80s. The prisoners still in jail are kind of celebreties in Lebanon and freeing them would have boosted Hezbollahs image dramatically.
This site started out as a must-read for intelligent and cogent legal analysis, with just enough lightweight political snark to be amusing. It’s slowly but surely devolved into an ego-feeding, self-satisfied in-group clique long on lightweight snark and echo-chamber conventional wisdom, and low on actual hard analysis.
i wanted to comment on this, as well.
first, i don’t love everything every blog i visit covers. am i a little sick of lamont – liberman? hell yes! but it’s the cause of this site, and i am glad someone gives a shit enough to try to get liberman out of office.
i’ve noticed over many years of reading blogs now, going way back to even the early days of bartcop, that one’s interest in a blog tends to ebb and flow, given the path of the discussions and even changes in the authors of the site.
it’s OK to burn out on a site – to leave it for a while – and then come back. i do that quite often with many sites.
FDL, atrios, and kos all share one thing in common; they have engendered very, very involved communities of commenters / posters. this means you get the first 10 comments with ridiculous crap like “fitz!” and “(insert favorite other poster’s name here)!” as well as the author’s dog’s name.
OK.
so it’s not particularly how we’d like to see the comments go.
but in the end, that’s part of the little magic of cohesion that keeps these groups together, that allows them to contribute without even really knowing one another except through the typewritten word. it’s really an amazing thing, when you think about it – just, for a moment, reflect on what things were like before sites like this existed.
i can tell you this: i felt pretty disconnected from the world.
so while i don’t agree with all the clubby in-chat crap that goes on at many sites, boo fuckin’ hoo. i get over what i don’t like and focus on what i do like – thoughtful articles, and occasionally brilliant commentary from the readers.
i have become a more thoughtful person for it.
i used to run a large toy company and customers would always come up to me and say, “gee, why don’t you make X in this color scheme?” or “man, i hated that product!” and i became somewhat infamous for saying, you know what? if you don’t like it, don’t buy it – not everything is for every buyer.
as fans, we lose touch with the fact that we’re supposed to be discerning, at times. but that’s OK – it’s part of being a fan.
casey, i hope you’ll take this insight from someone who has floated around a lot of sites and learned to take from them what i can, and ignore the rest.
trust me, it’s the only way, bro.
sigh. If it’s an unresolvable mess on FDL, its a HUGE mess in the world.
I think the most important part of this conversation is that there is no “Beginning” of it. It stretches back to infinite injuries untold, and forward to vast fears unnamed. Whenever someone starts to talk, they run the risk of not “starting” at the same point and looking anti-arab or anti-sematic or both.
If we could find a way to erase fallacy that there IS a “beginning” to the conversation, and just talk about what’s happening NOW, I believe the whole thing could be solved immediately.
A big part of the problem is that everyone in the Middle East has the same attitude as the GOP — they believe everything is a zero sum game, that requires you to lose so that I might win.
Finding Win-Win solutions is the only way out of the cycles of violence, and since the assassination of Rabin, no one has had the vision or authority to see that.
The God of War is said to be one handed, but Peace gives Victory to both sides.
Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Sessions advocates hanging journos and others. (basically)
F’ing Nazi. (oops, wrong thread for Godwin…)
–
Schumer uses term ‘high dudgeon’ … cool.
Admin uses “Selective outrage” re: leaks.
more leaking questions. And political implications.
Gonzo CYA” I condemn all leaks..for the record.”
Gray @112
To help us follow your response to comments could you please source them within the thread?
Thanks
Larry
Maybe this has been covered in a previous posting, but everyone in MSM seems to be saying that Syria/Iran must have given Hezbollah the “green light”. Well we must have given Israel some sort of green light as well. I know that everyone is talking about how Bush is “disengaged” from the situation, but excepting the conspiracy theories (for the moment) that this is a Neocon setup for a broader war, it seems that at the very least Washington would have been notified. I know Israel has proven that it doesn’t need permission from us to act, but the whole laissez-faire attitude by the administration makes me think that they knew it was coming and couldn’t care less. It only makes the US look even worse in the eyes of the rest of world that we would applaud this kind of overkill (quite literally). So much for the hearts and minds of the Arab/Muslim world…sigh
christy:
There are a number of people with Middle East expertise who hang out over at Col. Lang’s blog:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com….._tyrannis/
You might look over there for some potential contributors to FDL on this subject.
Whoa! Breaking!
In Testimony, Gonzales Says Bush Blocked Inquiry
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07…..mp;emc=rss
I heard last night on Charlie Rose Dan Gillerman the Israeli Ambassador to the UN. Gillerman is a neoconservative Israeli-style. Like American neocons, he believes there are military solutions to essentially political problems. I do not think that this concordance of views is a happenstance but indicative of substantial contact and cross fertilization of ideas between American neocons and the Israeli right.
Israel has always had a unique and important place in the thinking of American neocons. Their uncritical acceptance of it has unfortunately only been matched by a blindness to its failures and those of their Israeli counterparts. The inability to secure a durable peace through 39 years of military occupation in the Territories and 18 years of occupation of South Lebanon ending in the 2000 withdrawal have not taught either group anything.
With the whole history of Israel in the last half of the 20th century before their eyes, American neocons still thought the invasion of Iraq would be cheap, easy, and successful.
What we are seeing in Lebanon today is another failure of neocon thinking but even more so of its practitioners. Neocons will not let go their discredited belief in the supremacy of military force in international relations and so are incapable of learning from their mistakes.
Hope, we had bad news from lhp. Her soon-to-be-ex’s dog give birth to three pups over the weekend. One was stillborn, one the momma killed early yesterday, and the third, lhp is worried about still — particularly b/c mr. lhp is making all kinds of unhelpful decisions.
OT
U.N. Estimates Nearly 6,000 Iraqi Civilians Died in 2 Months
GAVE birth
Schumer smacking Gonzo around on how it is determined which leaks get investigated.
“To help us follow your response to comments could you please source them within the thread?”
Oops, but sure. Sry, being mostly a lurKer here, I’m not accustomed to your numering system. Good thing, though.
#112 was in response to #96.
Monk at 119 — I’m working on it as I type here. (And good to see you!)
I am still outraged over this one from Bolton.
“I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts,” he added, while defending as “self-defense” Israel’s military action, which has had “the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths”.
This is not diplomacy. I think our administration has failed miserably and has no credibility WHATSOEVER when it comes to diplomatic efforts– what’s worse, they don’t care! Blind and total allegiance to Israel is not in America’s best interests– allies sometimes need to be spoken to firmly and fairly– and the rest of the world needs to see it!
Lebanon and Palestine are fledgling democracies. Why does this supposedly pro democracy administration not help them and engage in real diplomatic efforts?
You cannot have peace until you talk to your enemies, for pity’s sake.
RevDeb -
Think it was Ted. I was surprised too.
(streaming has quagmired speed on Kludge unit, today…]
apoligies for any weirdly timed injections.
Ghostman – re your point #1 – If Israel had made an agreement with the Palestinians, you accept that some terrorism would continue but that it would get better eventually. How many civilian deaths should the Israel’s accept? How many attacks should they let go and say that the Paletinian government will take care of it? At what point would they be allowed to say “enough” and actually defend themselves. Like too many proposals, yours has a Bush-like dream quality to it. It does not adequately address the security of Israel in a two state solution. It just waves away any potential problems as temporary ones that will go away with time, but provides no alternative to deal with them if that is not the case. (Iraqi occupation anyone?)
lina your 119—There are a number of people with Middle East expertise who hang out over at….
There are also a number here… some of whom are rather well known Arabists & Middle East experts….that actually can speak and read Farsi, Arabic etc..
Meanwhile, Taylor reports on the FratBoy-in-Chief groping the German Prime Minister at the G8 in full view of others. A total gross-out.
Hey, what’s wrong with a harmless little unsolicited neck rub among world leader friends during official state business?
http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc…..p?id=24262
_
Thanks Gray for your 125
Larry
Grandma 98
And if Mr. Little Dog hadn’t come into my life, I expect I’d be singing that song, too; although I have to admit the two Little Dog sons are pretty strong in the nurturing department, too.
But I fear STBEx is operating out of something that’s not good for him or LHP or the pups. :(
gray, 109: no, I didn’t miss it. And, in fact, I tend to believe that the real purpose of the Hezbollah ambush was just as you mention: Hezbollah just wanted to set up a prisoner exchange. Agreed. But that doesn’t change Hezbollah’s overall “mission in life” as I mentioned in #89.
Ghostman
OT
Nothing I can do here so I’m off to a local animal shelter (New Braufels, TX SPCA) to bring them supplies. Just heard on the local news that they were severly vandalized, with a “number of undisclosed animals maimed and killed”. Anyone here that can help out with a donation it would be appreiciated. Here’s a link if you’re interested:
http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/TX478.html
My heart is heavy at the state of the world.
as the Gonzalez appearance was breaking up, a voice from the audience could be heard hollering something about TORTURE. Good for them!
“#112 was in response to #96.”
Damn, I’m confused. It’s working as response to 96, too, ok, but the quote was elsewhere. Still scrolling, pls stand by….
ooo – did a spectator yell something at Gonzo about torture right after the hearing was dismissed?
Ghost
I have been away.. traveling…
Good to read you again
Larry
#112 was in response to #91, second paragraph. Phew…
#76 – That’s the first thing my husband said when I told him the Americans were waiting for a cruise ship. He fully expects a disaster blamed on Hezbollah. It would tie in with all the Repug commentators calling this WWIII – force the situation into a true WWIII – force the apocalypse.
Full Disclosure: I am no student of the Middle East, and do not feel I can comfortably weigh in on the “who’s right/who’s wrong” discussion; I just do not know. I have a number of friends who are Jewish, and their views on things in this region are all over the place.
What seems to have attached to this issue is the same thing that attaches to discussions about race: that for a person of color to criticize or deride or applaud the actions of other people of color is considered “okay,” but the same sentiment, expressed for the same reasons and on the same basis is assumed to have some sort of unpleasant bias or “ism” attached to it.
I think, as an American, I am entitled to venture an opinion about the wisdom of any foreign policy decisions and actions undertaken and the billions of dollars in aid appropriated for any country, anywhere in the world.
Should we always take a position that Israel can do no wrong? No, we shouldn’t. But we’ve accorded Israel the responsibility for maintaining a “We can Wipe You Off the Face of the Earth if We Want To” capability as a way of keeping the region in a sort of status quo of occasional skirmishes but otherwise tolerable tension.
What do we do when we think Israel has perhaps reacted too strongly – just pull the whole rug out from underneath and take an adversarial position? Isn’t that the equivalent of telling the other countries in the region that all bets are off, Israel is on its own and let the games begin?
Tom Friedman had an op-ed in the NYT on Friday that said in part:
The tiny militant wing of Hamas today is pulling all the strings of Palestinian politics, the Iranian-backed Hezbollah Shiite Islamic party is doing the same in Lebanon, even though it is a small minority in the cabinet, and so, too, are the Iranian-backed Shiite parties and militias in Iraq. They are not only showing who is boss inside each new democracy, but they are also competing with one another for regional influence.
As a result, the post-9/11 democracy experiment in the Arab-Muslim world is being hijacked. Yes, basically free and fair elections were held in Lebanon, the Palestinian territories and Iraq. Yes, millions turned out to vote because the people of the Arab-Muslim world really do want to shape their own futures.
-snip -
- snip -
Seems like things worth thinking about.
135&137–Yes, and he just yelled out again– Attorney General….torture….
Why is a US defense contractor hosting Hezbollah’s web site?
http://www.nasrollah.org resolves to 82.205.138.35
whois -h whois.ripe.net 82.205.138.35
inetnum: 82.205.138.0 – 82.205.138.63
netname: HCS
remarks: INFRA-AW
descr: Horizon Communication Riyadh
country: sa
admin-c: MA3701-RIPE
tech-c: KK1722-RIPE
status: Assigned PA
mnt-by: HSS-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
person: Mohammed Aslam
address: Horizon Communication
phone: 96612910244
e-mail: maslam@horizon-communication.com
nic-hdl: MA3701-RIPE
source: RIPE # Filtered
person: Karthikeyan K
address: Hejailan Projects
phone: 96612910244
e-mail: karthik@hejailan.com
nic-hdl: KK1722-RIPE
source: RIPE # Filtered
The RIPE registration record for that IP address says it belongs to a “Horizon Communication”, out of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. The registration record goes on to list “Karthikeyan K” at an address of “Hejailan Projects”
–
http://companies.infobasepub.c…..17539.html
This business is one of more than 8,000 described in the Companies database of the Defense/Aerospace Competitive Intelligence Service (DACIS), published by InfoBase Publishers.
Al-Hejailan Projects Co., Ltd.
DESCRIPTION: Al-Hejailan Projects Engineering Co. is a Saudi engineering firm known to be involved in maintenance and upgrading of vehicles belonging to the Royal Saudi Land Forces Infantry Corps.
CHRONOLOGY
* 1993. FMC-Arabia Ltd. is established as a joint venture between United Defense Industries, Inc. (Arlington, VA) and the Al-Hejailan Group (Saudi Arabia). The company is 51% owned by United Defense.
* April 2003. Al-Hejailan Group acquires the 51% stake in United Defense Systems-Arabia owned by United Defense Industries, Inc. (NYSE: UDI) for approximately $0.4 million.
so….
Why is a US defense contractor hosting Hezbollah’s web site?
[From siteowner — Received on 10/17/07]:
Dear Host master,
This is to clarify our position in regards to the posting on your website (
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..hezbollah-)stronger/
and thereby to neutralize any plausible implications that may be construed thereof.
At the outset, it will be logical to start with the relationship between the three companies mentioned in your post, Al Hejailan Projects Engineering, Horizon Communication Services and Horizon Satellite Services.
Al Hejailan Projects Engineering Co. is a reputed company established in Saudi Arabia way back in the 80s and as a holding company, it offers a diverse range of services and products through many of its subsidiaries. The activities of these subsidiary companies range from construction, telecoms, manufacturing and other services. Al Hejailan Projects Engineering Co. supports its subsidiaries with Management and Financial Support services.
Both, Horizon Communication Services, registered in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and Horizon Satellite Services, registered in Dubai, UAE are fully owned subsidiaries of Al Hejailan Projects Engineering Co.
Horizon Communication Services (HCS) provides IT infrastructure implementation and maintenance support to Al Hejailan Projects Engineering Co. Whereas Horizon Satellite Services (HSS) provides internet-via-satellite connectivity solutions for the Middle East region.
As an Internet Service Provider, HSS is a member of RIPE (http://www.ripe.net) and conducts business in strict adherence to regulations stipulated by RIPE including those related to issuing of IP addresses to clients. Accordingly, we are required to specify the usage and update the RIPE database to reflect our customers’ details as and when new IP addresses are issued.
IP address 82.205.138.35 was assigned to Horizon Communication Services (HCS) in May-06. In due course, when HCS requested more IP addresses, we (HSS) assigned them with a new set of IP addresses and gave their old IP address 82.205.138.35 to one of our customers in Lebanon. However, we did not update this information on the RIPE database to reflect the new change, since it is a standard practice to do this periodically and not as soon as an IP address is changed. This explains why the search to http://www.nazrolla.org led to the fact that it was hosted on 82.205.138.35 and why the RIPE database was still showing Horizon Communication Services’ name.
Further, Al Hejailan’s name was not registered to that IP address but the address of one of the persons registered in the RIPE database, Karthikeyan K which mentioned Al Hejailan Projects Engineering’s name.
As an Internet Service Provider, these kinds of issues are common and whenever HSS receives inquiries related to usage of its services, in the larger interest of all concerned and that of the society we live in and contribute to, it is our policy to disclose all necessary information, within our means and knowledge, on the person or company using our Internet services, including IP addresses that have been issued by us. However, when it comes to content, understandably, we do not have control over the content hosted by customers using our services.
I hope this explains the situation and trust you will be kind enough to use this clarification to clear up this issue with the owner of the blog. Also, kindly remove this posting from your website.
Please feel free to revert back to us in case you need any more details or clarifications.
Thank you & kind regards,
Horizon Technical Team
Horizon Satellite Services
Email:technical@horizon-satellite.com
Contact no: 971-4-391-5122
Why is it that whenever someone tries to blame both sides for the escalation vis-a-vis Israel, they are accused of being anti-semetic?
Personally, I find it ridiculous.
It is analogous to the Pug’s assertion that questioning the Pres/Admin is unpatriotic. Pro-Israelis take it one step further – damning any open minded investigation as anti-israel AND anti-Jew.
I realize the issues are complicated, but refusuing to have reality based discussions gets it nowhere.
Me? I’m just anti-asshole.
for CaseyL at 30 – I’ve been snark-free since midnight.
taking it one. post. at. a. time.
Ghostman @ #134: Agreed! That Nazrallah guy is a ruthless terrorist, but smart. I guess it’s reasonable to assume that he’s following several goals at the same time.
Lotus Sweetie…Thank you for the update. So sad. There is no topic closer to my heart than animals. I will put puppy number three in my prayers. Off the the SPCA…
Anne @ 10:16 your 142
Listen to Tom Friedman?
Please.
Bless you, Hope, for what you’re about to face and do. I’ll be thinking of you on your errand of mercy and heroism.
watching the Marriage Something or Other Protection Act debate… seems more like a Judicial Branch Should be Made Irrelevant Act (according to the pugs)…
don’t they have better things to do?
MattR at 130
Understand where you are coming from, but at some point Israel has to understand that bombs are not going to solve the security problem. They have been trying that for decades. The answer is to reduce the number of your enemies, not increase them (by adding another generation that has fresh grievances). To use an Old Testament reference, paraphrasing Solomon here – Justifiable action does not mean wise action.
Meanwhile, in our democrtatic success story, Iraq,
“6000 Iraqi civilians die in 2 months.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07…..r=homepage
Let freedom Reign!
Can someone list the big terror attacks that Hezbollah has taken credit for?
And all those rockets Helicopters and jets that Israel have? …Are paid by the US!! …
All I ask for is people to research what is happening over their with an open and unbiased mind and you will find how badly Israel treats it’s neighbours…. with such contempt and disgraceful actions that it’s no wonder we have terrorism. You can’t bulldoze villages and homes in neighbouring countries and not get hostile reactions.
They leave the people of Palestine in such absolute desperation that they often find they have no other option than to fight back.
This too my friends is at the heart of 911 and world wide terrorism.
So the headline from Gonzo’s hearing is:
“Bush Obstructed Justice, Attorney General Says”
Isn’t the next logical headline:
“Congress Begins Impeachment Hearings”
I imagine Gonzo may have to get back to us on that. He has more to get back to than Judith Miller at the Original Mattress Factory.
Larry: good to have you back! Too early still for a Jameson, but the sun sets every day!
Oh, MattR, 126: well, if a suicide bomber makes it thru the checkpoint, that’s Israel’s fault. If a rocket lights off from Palestine…ok, fault on Palestine. But sending in the F-16s to resolve it just doesn’t work. I don’t have any numbers for you, per your question.
Ghostman
OT but fascinating: Cut’n Run Joe has no indigenous political machine in place! http://hotlineblog.nationaljou…..organ.html
Gotta go you all be nice.
Thanks for this post. Tough subject to keep civil…but well done to all who were.
Larry
Oldtree at 63,
In this case I don’t remeber the sequence as being Hezbollah fired on Isreal first. I remember:
-Hezbollah commandos kill 5 IDF soldiers and capture 2 on patrol just inside the Israeli border.
-Israeli Airforce bombs various targets in Lebannon, killing about 50. I remeber being surprised that they hit beruit instead of just southern Lebannon.
- Hezbollah launches rocket attacks in response. The Haifa Rocket attack wasn’t until the morning of the 15th I believe. This surpirsed me as well, I didn’t think they could reach Haifa.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20…..0716083552
July 8
Israeli troops kill four Palestinians but pull back from northern Gaza to a “security zone” on the border with Israel. Haniya calls for a ceasefire
July 9
Israel mounts a new round of air strikes on Gaza. The death toll rises: 41 Palestinians and one Israeli soldier have been killed in the last four days
July 10
The supreme leader of Hamas, Khaled Mashal, emerges from hiding in Damascus – where he is under the protection of the Syrian regime – to say that Corporal Shalit will not be freed without a prisoner exchange, but that his life will be protected
July 11
More air strikes in Gaza. The Palestinian death toll reaches 52
July 12
At 2:30am, Israeli jets bomb the house of Mohammed Deif, the leader of Hamas’s armed wing, wounding him.
Hours later a new front opens in the crisis, as Hezbollah fighters cross Israel’s northern border with Lebanon, kill three Israeli soldiers and capture two. Israel calls the attack an “act of war” and responds with airstrikes and the first incursions into Lebanon in six years. A total of 8 Israeli soldiers die
July 13
The attack against Lebanon continues. More than 50 Lebanese die in the bombing and shelling of Hezbollah bases. Israel cripples Beirut international airport, begins a naval blockade and urges residents to evacuate neighbourhoods in southern Beirut. Hezbollah threatens to attack Haifa, Israel’s third largest city. Amid international appeals for calm, President Abbas warns of a “regional war”.
Larry at 129: Then I’ll look forward to reading your guest post.
Larry – I don’t always agree with Friedman – he’s the one who keeps saying the “next six months” are critical to Iraq – and he’s been saying it for 3 years now.
That being said – try a little thought experiment and try taking Tom Friedman out of what I posted above and see if any of it makes sense.
Did any of you watch the Tony Snow Condescendarama?
He and Helen Thomas got into it again. If she’s right, and IIRC she is, he’s an idiot and can’t be taken seriously ever again.
My TiVo just unpaused, so I’m seeing something that’s 30 minutes old.
152, klyde….well there is the Marine barracks disaster. Terrible event.
Ghostman
OT and on the fly:
Just heard an MSNBC reporter explaining to Jansing what Tony Snow was trying to say because, doh, the bullythugs in the WH don’t do enough spinning of their own and oh, yeah, Helen Thomas asks such HARD pointed questions.
How pathetic is it that the strongest reporter for holding the WH feet to the fire is an 85-year-old little ol’ lady.
Want my Helen is my Hero t-shirt now!
Steve, thanks for a great, economical post.
OT *ilson @ 158 – HoJo’s got to win on Aug 8th or he’s GONE… I just have this feeling, he’s not going to be able to get his signatures for an independent run
152, klyde….well there is the Marine barracks disaster. Terrible event.
Terrible but an attack against armed military men who have fired 8 inch cannons at you from the Battleship Missouri is not not terrorist.
punaise –
I’ve been snark-free since midnight.
Oh. My. God. It is the end of the world. Anybody know any good pre-Rapture investment opportunities?
I saw a Ghost so Im back for a moment… Too early still for a Jameson, but the sun sets every day!
Thank God…its setting now.
Larry
MattR at 128:
At what point does Israel need to take a look at the methods they’re using to “defend themselves” and assess how successful they’ve been for the last 60 years?
only took 63 posts before the “antisemitism” charge was flung. That gets so tiring. Until that stops there will be no productive dialogue. A friend of mine is a senior vice president in the foreign currency dept of a bank who attended a mediation seminar put on by a very famous atty mediator. He boasted he could mediate and solve any world problem, except Israel. That one he said, will not be solved until everything is blown up. You know if professional mediators feel that way…
not to worry about Joe getting the signatures — professional petitioning firms can get enough signatures to make Jeffrey Dahmer the chief cook at the White House …
Anti-Semitic. What does it mean? My understanding, limited though it may be, is that Palestinians and the Jewish people are both Semitic peoples. The dictionary describes Semite as being “a member of any number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, AND Arabs”. So, to label one who disagrees with Israeli government policies and actions aimed at Palestinians, as being “anti-Semitic” simply makes no sense. Saying someone is anti-Semitic based on their legitimate disagreement with Israeli governmental actions, seems merely to be ‘couched-prejudice’ in intension. Many times it appears the term anti-Semitic is applied when one has no legitimate argument for use as rebuttal.
*ilson — that is an amazing article — I always thought labor was going to run Joe’s ground game. I wish Jordan would look into that.
Meanwhile, I wonder how many firepups could get gigs working for Lieberman — y’know, get on that several million dollar gravy train and put your feet up for the rest of the summer? Do nothing? Listen to the radio? Talk about, well, baseball maybe? If I could, I would like to be one who siphoned off some Lieberman war chest funds. Maybe he needs a criminal law consultant?
Great post, right on the mark.
I spent nearly a year on the ground in southern Lebanon back in the 80’s when Hezbollah, Amal, the Southern Lebanese Army and the IDF were all jocking for power and influence. I went in pretty much pro Israel and believing what I had learned from the U.S. media. I left with a different reality and a very anti Israeli perspective. Don’t misunderstand me, Hezbollah is a bunch of thugs and cruelly self serving, but so is the IDF. Both groups perpetuate the violence to serve their own selfish interests and I do not think they want to see it end. I don’t trust our government to be at all helpful in defusing the escalating violence. The EU has a more accurate take on the Middle East and will do a better job of bringing some kind of peace to the region. They won’t let Israel push them around like we do.
“Anti-Semitic” always struck me as an odd word. The word was apparently coined by European bigots in an effort to make their prejudices sound scientific. But in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the word seems particularly inappropriate, because Arabic and Hebrew are both Semitic languages, and by tradition, Arabs and Jews, as children of Abraham, are also children of Sem, or Shem.
So we are in the strange position that the word that it used for anti-Jewish prejudice appears, by its form, also to refer to anti-Arab prejudice, although the word has not been historically used that way. Language is an odd thing.
New thread kids…
Part of the problem of discussing Israel in the US is that the fundagelical elements WANT the apocalypse – as at least one jewish commenter I saw on a BBC documentary put it, “The fundamentalist evangelicals aren’t any kinds of friends of mine. They expect me to be dead or see the error of my ways and become like them a third of the way into their apocalyptical narrative. Their support of Israel is based entirely on the mass death and conversion to christianity of the jews wiping out the jewish nation in the opening chapters of their End Times narrative. I don’t think people who’re looking forward to my death are my friends.”
In other news, the Norwegian state department chartered the first available ship to evacuate the remaining citizens and offered space to a few other nations when it turned out to have spare capacity. Of course, since it’s not a cruise ship but rather a cargo ship that’s normally used for transporting cars, the american evacuation specialists might not want to enlist it after we’re done with it.
@161 lina says
July 18th, 2006 at 10:28 am
Larry at 129: Then I’ll look forward to reading your guest post.
Lina….do you want to read that in Farsi or would MSA be ok?
One last thing – Israel in many ways is very forward thinking, but I fail to see how they don’t realize that by destroying the Lebanese infrastructure they are practically guaranteeing a rise in militant support. Lebanon had finally found some degree of stability and its economy was seeing the results. Now that the world is put on notice that Israel plans on bombing at will, the economic realities will be devastating. Look at Gaza, what (even sympathic Arab investor) would invest in any serious level of economic investment in that area given the realities and uncertainties of your investment even being left standing a month from today. Hate to sound capitalistic while people are dying, but jobs and money have a way of curbing the more extreme violent behavior in society.
Kurt 74
Hezbollah has seats in the Lebonese gov’t. It’s like the Republican party attacking Mexico. They represent the government.
I see a lot of misinformation in the main post and these comments. First, Israel did not form the PLO. The PLO had ties both historical and genetic to the Mufti of Palestine way back in the 40s from which Yassar Arafat arose to power and to create the PLO.
Secondly, one poster above stated that Israel “occupies” Palestinian land. Follow the trail of history. Go back thousands of years…the jews inhabited it first. Then the Arabs, the Ottoman Empire…British and so on and so forth.
Also, the land on which Israel sits the Arabs had sold many of those parcels to the Jews because it was ‘no good’ and they thought they were getting a great deal! (Unload this no-good land to some Jew…)
Last, as the poster above stated, Israel has never once started a war on their own. Yes, they’ve retaliated…rightly or wrongly, but in the end they have returned all but one area to the previously drawn borders.
From 1948-1967 the Palestinian “occupiers” prevented Israelis from going to their religious artifacts and places where they worship…like the Western Wall. Not once has Israel refused to allow Palestinians to continue in their worship places.
The problem with this situation is that ALL sides are making mistakes and that there is no right answer.
But to call Israelis the occupiers without looking at the behavior of the rest of the Arab world is just plain wrong. Palestinians have had the chance to build their own land and government since 1948; however, they chose to invest their riches in weapons and their corrupt leadership has stolen from their own people which has created the poverty that the average Palestinian faces.
If I might add a couple of thoughts to the original post….
First, there are considerable similarities to the operations Israel has undertaken in both the occupied territories (and particularly Gaza) and in Lebanon. The object in both instances is to completely isolate those regions and to turn the population against their governments in the hope that those governments will collapse. First, Hamas is perceived as a threat because it intended (and promised the Palestinians) that it would negotiate with Israel, but very firmly. Ever since Hizbollah found a minor role in the Lebanese government, their stock has gone up among the Shia population there. The only way to rid the Lebanese government of Hizbollah, as Israeli thinking went, was to ruin that government. If one looks at the pattern of attacks in Gaza over the last several months, they do bear great resemblance to the pattern of attacks on Lebanon these past few days.
So, in Israel’s own way, it has taken a page out of the neo-cons’ playbook–Israel is attempting regime change through force.
Next, there are a couple of things that seem to go together in an odd way. If one just starts the news timeline beginning with the cross-border attack by Hizbollah, the Israeli attacks have the appearance of being impromptu and retaliatory. But, if one looks at the targets chosen in Lebanon, this attack had to have been planned. Processing targeting data, surveillance and munitioning up all take time to accomplish and coordinate. Add to that some reporting by Robert Fisk from a couple of days ago saying that his sources tell him that Hizbollah had been planning for this eventuality for months–they had even used a small pilotless drone to take still photos of Israel’s equivalent of NORAD at a secret base in Miron–and then attacked it with rockets when Israel began bombing Lebanon. The equipment, like NORAD’s, is buried in the mountain, so Hizbollah attacked the antenna array on top of the mountain.
All this suggests that Hizbollah had good intelligence on the ground that Israel was planning an attack and Hizbollah was determined to meet it. It’s also possible that Hizbollah engaged in the cross-border attack to start the war on its own timetable, rather than on Israel’s.
There are some things to suggest that Israel was thinking offensively, rather than defensively. Israel was surprised by rocket attacks on Haifa (the proof that they didn’t expect it is in the fact that they moved Patriot missile batteries to Haifa after the missile attacks began, not before–they simply didn’t know that Hizbollah had rockets of that range–and that means their pre-attack intelligence gathering wasn’t directed toward monitoring Hizbollah’s military activities in the south of Lebanon). They were wholly surprised by the attack on Miron–and vociferously denied that the attack had taken place. Next, according to Fisk, the attack on one of its gunboats was wholly unexpected. Israel had even put embedded reporters on that ship to show them how the gunboat shelled the Beirut coastline.
Finally, if Israel’s intent was to neutralize Hizbollah and the rocket attacks on northern Israel, their intelligence gathering and the resulting attacks would have centered on southern Lebanon and rocket launchers–this didn’t begin to occur until yesterday or so–several days after their attack on Lebanon began.
And, predictably, the entire weekend has been filled with right-wingers screaming for war with Syria and/or Iran, and virtually all of the talk by both Israel and the U.S. for attribution is centered on Syria and Iran, which fits rather nicely into existing U.S. plans for an air bombardment campaign against Iran. Bush has been openly critical of Kofi Annan wanting to first establish a cease-fire and then begin negotiations (that’s the way things ought to work anywhere but the planet Bush is on).
All this suggests, to me, anyway, that we may be seeing a coordinated effort by Israel and the United States to manufacture a reason, however thin, to launch attacks on Syria and Iran. I would guess that if the rhetoric ratchets up during the coming week, and if Israel continues to claim direct Iranian involvement in Hizbollah’s rocket attacks, we can likely expect the war in the Middle East to widen in precipitous fashion.
Cheney and Rummy get their wall-to-wall war, Rove gets his boost for the Congressional elections and the oil companies get a free spike in prices to the $100-120/bbl range. Win-win-win for the radical wackos in the U.S., and heaven help the rest of us, there and here.
Advice Librarian…179
Fundie-gelicals are a bizarre bunch.
Hey Christy, what the hell happened ta comment #94…and who is screenin’ comments and holds up what they don’t like???!!!
Well, despite how one may feel about who started this and who’s morally right, there are a few questions about AMERICAN actions that I would like answered.
1. Apparantly, the cruise ship that was hired by the US to evacuate its citizens is being held up by the Israeli blockade. Could someone tell me why the President of the United States can’t call the Israeli Prime Minister, whose policy he is supporting and say “Look, we need to get our people out. This is our ship. Tell your navy to knock this shit off and let us the fuck in”? Or does that only apply to Hezballah and Syria?
And why is this starting to look more and more like the Astrodome every day?
2. Is it really strategically wise for the President’s Press Secretary to basically excuse Israeli killing of Lebanese civilians (altho he ‘laments’ their deaths) WHILE WE STILL HAVE 25,000 AMERICANS IN COUNTRY? Why not just paint a big target on their backs? And no, I’m not saying that he’ll allow Israel to kill Americans, I’m saying that the brushoff of the killing of Lebanese civilians by Israel may very well trigger a response by Hezbollah against Americans. Or an accidental Israeli bombing if they’re too close to an Israeli target.
Regardless of how you feel, mourn the first American death to come out of this, which, mark my word, will happen within 24 hours if the incompetence used in the non-evacuation and in speeches from people who should know better continues.
I have always found this argument, as stated by 007 above, to be a little odd:
“Secondly, one poster above stated that Israel “occupies” Palestinian land. Follow the trail of history. Go back thousands of years…the jews inhabited it first. Then the Arabs, the Ottoman Empire…British and so on and so forth.”
It would be interesting to apply that principle to other places in the world – North and South America come to mind. Also Australia.
Norske at 184 — your comment got stuck in the moderating filter because of using terminology like “Zionist” — which we are screening for obvious reasons. As I just finished my last article and got it posted, and had to get my daughter up from her nap, I haven’t had a chance to read it through other than an initial scan to see if I am going to free it up or not.
Some patience, from everyone, would be much appreciated, as I and every other moderator who VOLUNTEERS their time to help out Jane and I, tries to keep the discussion civil. I’ll get to it after I’ve gotten my peanut her snack…
I assume that all those folk who assert the Hebrews right to the land of Palestine based on ownership 2000 years ago are planning to evacuate the USA totally and turn their land back to the Native Americans (Indians) ? Ethnic cleansing sorta worked in much of North America — its getting harder to do it nowadays in other parts of the world …
#34: Israel cannot afford a war.
It can indeed, thanks to US taxpayers and AIPAC owned senators.
Perhaps that was the case 20 or so years ago, but these days, Israeli annual GDP is between $110 and $150 billion, depending on which calculation you use.
US subsidies to Israel are about $3b annually. That’s about 2% of the total annual GDP. Certainly it helps, but Israel could get along just fine without it.
007,
“Follow the trail of history” yourself.
So when are Israelis going to give the land back to the original inhabitants the Canaanites? To stake a current claim on a piece of land from thousands of years ago is just loopy.
The following one that “It was ours but we bought it anyway” is almost as bad.
I’m surprised you didn’t use one of Golda Meir’s favorites that the land was empty and that there were no Palestinians.
As for Palestinians developing their own territories, there has been this minor obstacle of the 39 years of Israeli occupation that has controlled every aspect of “development” in the West Bank. If there is no infrastructure, universities, industry, water resources, and roads like there are in Israel, you might want to ask the Israelis why this is so.
Christy,
Thanx fer the response but there is a real chill runnin thru the halls of FDL if a term like “Z*****t” sets off the Pope’s inquisitors. That word is NOT like the “N” word…any legitimate word can be used to abuse but it’s in the context and NOT the word itself. Please tell me that you will run thru your list of red flag terms and make sure that the free speech of FDL does not fall victim to intimidation by whomever for whatever…
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE AFRAID OF THE LIARS AND CHARLETONS!!!
Dratty at 186: yeah – our ship left port an hour or so ago after some concerted yelling by State at Israel, specifically they asked for and got guarantees that the ship would be safe from the IDF. It’s a bit delayed, but it’s left port. It’s carrying about 180 of ours, 300 swedes, and a scattering of americans, french, british and others. 350-ish swedes however, are still stuck as the IDF says “they can’t guarantee their safety” past the sea blockade. This strikes most people here as a bit odd since the Israeli navy are basically saying that they’re not promising to not shoot at the swedes.
It’s a bit odd – it’s not as if the israelis don’t have the capacity to track and indentify everything that moves on the water.
Casey L#31:
Did you read Gilliards essay? Because it seems like you are responding to something else.
For what it is worth, dropping bombs on civilian areas is “deliberate targeting of civilians” even if civlians are just collateral damage. You can do something that has a known consequence and then claim to be not deliberately causing that consequence. If my goal is picking apples, and I collect them by running a bullzozer into the tree, I cannot deny that I deliberately knocked over the tree. The Israeli military used to take great pains and risks (sometimes) to avoid doing what it now does casually.
Blame is not a plan.
Steve,
I take the points you enumerated about Israel’s mis-reading of the situation in Lebanon. Based on your evaluation, Israel should hide until Hizbollah and Hamas go away, thereby ensuring peace in the Middle East, and at last, provide safety and happiness for the State of Israel. World with end. Amen.
Based on your commentary, and with new information of Hizbollah’s tremendous arsenal of weapons, Israel should beg for forgiveness, release all prisoners, and beseach the international community to get them out of this mess. With any luck, and with the magnanimity for which Hizbollah and Hamas are known, Israel may be finally granted the right to exist.
Steve, get real. What was your advice to Israel in its two previous wars: give up – the Arabs are really bad guys and they’re waaaay stronger than you are?! Puhlease – if anything, the surprise of Hizbollah’s capabilities ensures
Israel will have to disarm them, regardless of the cost.
The strength of the State of Israel is their understanding of the realpolitik of the
region. To lose is to die. Israel will never permit this, whatever the cost, whatever the rest of the world thinks, and without your insight.
I agree completely with JiminLA. I read comments (and to a lesser extent, post them) on sites to get more nuance, more details on a topic. While I think it’s great everyone here is everyone else’s friend, all that crap dilutes the comment threads down to where I don’t bother to read them anymore.
As an example, I read Eschaton half a dozen times a day. A year ago (maybe more) I read all the comments and participated in most of the threads, now, not so much, if at all. I still love Eschaton but it doesn’t offer the same depth of information it used to.
I realize that site owners don’t want to dampen participation but the balance between friendly, insider chat and interesting discussion is definitely swinging towards the former here at FDL.
It’s why, when Steve posted on his site last night that he pulled a post to place here, I cringed. It’s why I cringe when Digby posts here.
I get enough of the “Fitz” posts at other places. It’s not so entertaining about the thousandth time you see it. Isn’t just a little over the top, all this irrelevant crap, in every thread? Even when the crap is important, as the Gonzo reports are, they don’t make this thread any more informative.
Just my opinion.
Hasta.
Bruce Dean – “regardless the cost” to whom?
*ilson46201…189
Yes. And I ask: who were the terrorist on the “Trail of Tears”? The “savages”, or the U.S. Cavalry? And are those imprisoned in Gaza the terrorists? Or is it perhaps the Israeli occupiers and soldiers guarding them who are the terrorists?
Your point is well taken. Indeed.
Mighty nice analysis there, Steve.
Completely wrong of course, but it sure looks good to those who don’t know any better…
“I assume that all those folk who assert the Hebrews right to the land of Palestine based on ownership 2000 years ago are planning to evacuate the USA totally and turn their land back to the Native Americans (Indians) ?”
A number of generations of Israelis have lived no where BUT Israel, having been born there. Is it not their homeland now? Should they leave because it’s claimed as the homeland of someone else, many of whom are now young enough to actually have been born and lived their lives elsewhere? Have I really no claim to America as a homeland despite having been born here, because someone else displaced the Native Americans? This “suffering for the sins of a prior generation” crap is a bit too fundamentalist for me, but I understand that it’s very popular with undergrads, so more power to you.
I just heard that Condi is not going to the region soon. So I guess that means another fews days of bombing at least. After all, God forbid this administration actually do some diplomacy instead of a visit and taking credit after the cease fire is a done deal. These really are complete idiots at work…
jlr,
It’s simple: the cost to anyone who seeks to destroy them. If the U.S. pulls out of Iraq – no big deal, life goes on for the U.S. Israeli’s do not have the luxury of losing a conflict. If Israeli loses, they cease to exist. Their enemies don’t care about beating them on the field of battle. Their goal is the complete and utter destruction of the State of Israel. The “cost to whom?” – unfortunately, when you’re busy fighting for your life, innocent bystanders are hurt. Please spare me the exegesis about innocents and bystanders. Israel is the only country held to a higher standard of conduct than the rest of the world. When malefactors stop trying to destroy Israel, innocents, including Israel, won’t be casualties of war.
*ilson46201 – your argument works both ways. Those who demand an end to Zionist colonization need to demonstrate good faith by evacuating American colonies. Those who demand compensation have a long list to get through too.
All discussions of the middle east that involve historical rights are doomed to get nowhere. You might as well debate water rights in Arizona where there are more rights than water.
Israel will be Lieberman’s wedge issue. From what I’ve read, even comments on lefty blogs, take a hardline, pro-Israeli/IDF stance is a winning issue. It is also being used to drag us into a war with Iran.
my point about ultra-Israelis and their supporters saying “it’s all ours coz it was 2000 years ago” could be applied wordwide to other indigenous peoples. Jews have no intrinsic “right” to Palestine based on Biblical history. Native Americans have a stronger historical claim in Indiana (where we have no reservations or recognized tribes nowadays).
Excellent post, truly brilliant analysis.
While Bruce Dean is entitled to his fact free view of history and current events, I do not see it as particularly helpful or useful. Hezbollah poses no threat to the existence of Israel. Israel is a nuclear power with around 200 weapons. It has a top notch military with the finest equipment in the world much of it bought and paid for American taxpayers. It is after the US Army in Iraq the preeminent power in the region. This is the realpolitik of the Middle East.
Bombing civilians, engaging in collective punishment, and then justifying these actions as self defense fools no one but those who don’t need facts to support their views.
Kurt-13. Good point.
We need a more nuanced and balanced position. We need to support both Israeli’s and the Palestinian’s right to exist within secure borders and enable their peoples to get on with their lives in peace.
We cannot have a knee-jerk support Israel no matter what position. Unfortunately because of the success of AIPAC and other jewish lobbies both the Dems and Repubs cannot have a balanced position. Witness Hillary and Feingold recent statements.
At the same time we cannot determine who are the legitimate representatives of the Palestinians and other other groups. Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. Just because we don’t like them we shouldn’t support their toppling. We need an open mind and be willing to talk with all parties and be a real honest broker in facilitating dialog and a real peace and territorial treaty.
When a young boy sees his little sister obliterated by a bomb he will grow up and pray for the day he can get revenge.
Sirhan Sirhan is supposed to have found a finger blown off another Palestinian in his playground when a child in Palestine.
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/20…..ddle-east/
Bruce Dean #195:
When someone says, stop flailing about wildly, you are going to drown, that doesn’t mean they want you to quietly sink below the surface.
I believe you are completely wrong about that, Virt. Could you please point to at least one comment here that supports your allegation?
CaseyL 31 — don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
These comments are now closed.
Virt’s comment has left us — his previous few comments in here were just for his blogwhoring