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[Steve Gilliard was nice enough to share a post on the conflict between Israel and Lebanon. For many in the US, making any sense out of the factions and nations involved, let alone the strategy, is difficult -- partly because this part of the region has been neglected by the Bush Administration, it's been off the radar for a lot of Americans. (The World had a great interview with Dennis Ross yesterday saying just that -- click on the "Diplomacy Review" link.) No excuse, but a lot of folks have short attention spans, I suppose. Anyway, Gilliard gives us a lot to think about in this post, and we really appreciate him sending it our way for everyone to read here at FDL. -- CHS]
Israeli planes pound Lebanon, 6 killed
By Alaa Shahine 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Israeli warplanes pounded south Lebanon on Tuesday, killing at least six people, as world efforts to defuse the crisis brought no signs of an early end to the week-old assault in retaliation against Hizbollah attacks.
The six civilians, all from one family, were killed during an air strike that hit a house shortly after midnight in a Lebanese border village. Israeli aircraft also hit Beirut's southern suburb and an army position overlooking the capital.
The fighting was triggered when Hizbollah, the guerrilla group which is backed by
Syria and Iran and is part of Lebanon's government, seized two Israeli soldiers and killed eight in a cross-border raid on northern Israel on July 12.
"We are working with our bare hands and so far we have recovered six bodies. More are still under the rubble," Salim Mourad, head of Aytaroun's village municipality, told Hizbollah's al-Manar television.
Let's get a few things straight.
First, Hezbollah is not a constructive influence. I mean, they're the Party of God. But they, like Hamas, exist because of Israeli meddling in local politics. They wanted to outwit the Amal and thus Hezbollah was born. They wanted to corner the PLO,and Hamas was born. They suckered the Israelis into an attack, one they were quite ready for.
Second: The Israelis are backing down. From destroying Hezbollah to asking them to set up a buffer zone is a major rhetorical climb down. Why? Because Hezbollah is ready to escalate the war if Israel does. And that came as a surprise. I think the Israelis and their US enablers believed too much of their own bullshit. So when Haifa gets rocketed, they're stunned.
Three: The warmongers like William Kristol and the war dodging cowards at the New Republic are no friends of Israel. They won't be on the end of the long range rockets and they won't be cleaning up the mess afterwards. Bombing power stations in Lebanon didn't force the Christians to turn on Hezbollah, but made them hate Israel and even more willing to turn a blind eye to Hezbollah. It was their kids being killed, not just the Shia of South Beirut.
Fourth: It's called disproportionate violence because the Beirut Airport doesn't have a Hezbollah Air Force wing there. Neither did the port of Tyre or the power station. I think the Israelis thought there would be an outcry to go after Hezbollah after they got bombed. However, Hezbollah was playing by Lebanese rules and protesting, not seizing the government in a gun fight. So the anger has turned towards Israel.
Fifth: Israel cannot afford a war. Their economy hasn't been stable in years. Calling up the reserves and going north is expensive. They thought a little shock and awe would get what they wanted, and it isn't anything close. Sure, they can beat Syria, but at what cost to the economy?
Sixth: Instead of weakening Hezbollah, this will strengthen them. What has happened so far? Israel has sent men to risk their lives to blow up gas stations, crater an airport and some docks and the rockets keep coming. Any mass Hezbollah casualities? No? However, Hezbollah has kidnapped two soldiers, attacked Haifa and escaped assassination.
The problem is that war cannot solve the problem Israel has with Hezbollah. They cannot fight a two or three front war. They need a buffer zone and no more attacks and that will only come from negotiations.
I think that's dawning on the IDF commanders, that their force has limits, they've made their points, and every dead child seen on TV enhances their enemies. It may not be reflected in New York, but the EU looks aghast at this, and it doesn't help Israel's long term security
In fact, one might think Hezbollah wanted this attack, knowing the Israelis would react in such a disproportionate manner. One trick in warfare is to get your enemy to act in a predictable way, They knew an ambush and kidnapping would work to do just that.
While a lot of people are reflexively pro-Israel, they don't get that Israel is being demographically engulfed by Arabs. If they want Israel to last, there has to be peace, meaningful, real peace. There will come a day when the Arabs can resist the IDF and after that, Israel will have no leverage.
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OT…but Lieberman still Sucks
Fitz…..
i guess silence signals assent. . .
Right on, Steve!
It is high time for all of us to stop buying into the myth that Israels interests are our own.
We removed the Taliban from power in Afghanistan. (albeit temporarily)
Who’s going to remove the Talibangelicals from power in America?
Great post and helpful to me to get a glimmer of some ‘facts’. All this while Hillary says Israel has a right to defend itself. Which it does but with thought and forsight and clear heads - not bombs. And all the war wongers on T.V. keep talking about Iran, Iran-this, Iran did that —
The fact remains that for many politicians the idea to repeat what Gillard just posted would be to put a bullseye on them, i.e. what happened to Dean.
Steve! GrandmaJ! Leisure Guy! Kitt even!
Israel is half the size of the State of Indiana with a population the same size of Indiana — in world terms, it is teeny, very teeny. It’s difficult continuing being a bad-ass if you are a midget …
bonzarella at 4 — I wouldn’t say that silence equals assent. More like digestion of the post, and contemplation of response, while also watching the judiciary hearing proceedings with Alberto Gonzales testifying. I think we’re all a bit overwhelmed on news and potential scenarios and problems this morning. It’s hot, and things in the Middle East are a painful mess.
I’ve said before, and I will say again, there are a whole lot of shades of gray in all of this mess, and no real black and white. And we will all do well to remember that in anything we read — but shades of gray are difficult to encapsulate in short posts, which is why we’re trying to find bits and pieces for folks to contemplate. This is a difficult situation all around, and there are no easy answers.
For me, though, the story is how little the Bush Administration has done and has been doing in this part of the region — and how that neglect has hastened this deterioration. What a mess…
Solid posting, and spot on.
We need Democrats to stop reflexively supporting the Israeli government. Period.
We need to get more actively involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and we need to be neutral, and talk to all parties. We need to drop the “we don’t talk to terrorists” bullshit, and recognize that it has only marginalized us in the region. We need to normalize relations with Iran and Syria. We need to threaten to cut off aid to Israel if it doesn’t start acting like a grownup. And we need to cut off their aid if they don’t cooperate.
We need Democrats to come forward and take these positions, and we Progressives need to support them when they do. And of course chastise those Dems who don’t. God knows the goopers won’t be doing it, they are too in love with all of that Rapturist/Dominionist crap.
For the record I am supportive of Israel, of it’s right to exist, of the right of its people to live normal, happy, productive lives, etc. But I think Israel’s neighbors deserve better than the hand they’ve been dealt. And deserve those same things that Israelis do.
“Instead of weakening Hezbollah, this will strengthen them.”
Yes. And that may have been just what Hezbollah needed. The group was started in 1982 as a more anti-semitic version of Amal and made a reputation for the militia that really thought against Israel, wearing down the IDF so much that it had to retreat from Lebanon. If this view is objective or not doesn’t matter, that’s how Lebanese view them. Check Lebanese bloggers and Angry Arab.
But now the political wing of Hezbollah is participating in government, and I guess now their followers see that the party of god isn’t so much different from other corrupt politicians. And it didn’t make any wonders happen, either. At the same time , the Israeli retreat deminished the chances of the military arm to maintain their reputation as freedom fighters. So, the escalation plays into the hands of Nazrallah. It proves that Hezbollah is still an active and not powerless (rockets on Haifa!) enemy of Israel. And the other militias look increasingly weak now, especially the regular army, because they can’t do anything to protect the people.
Really, from a strategical point of view, this large-scale bombing campaign is achieving nothing in the war on terror. But, on the other hand, maybe this isn’t its objective at all, maybe this is all about destabilizing neighboring countries in order to keep them weak. Devide et impera.
If it takes $10/gal gas to make our country stop being the puppet of Israel, it will be worth it.
Great to see Steve over here. As spotty as his electoral predictions are :) there’s nary a blogger on these internets whose politico-military analyses are more bang-on.
I would like to congratulate FireDogLake for having had a continuing civilized discussion of the MidEast news without degenerating into nuclear-level flamewars … let us all continue the decency here while discussing the atrocities over there …
“thought”?!
Hmm, they fought without much thought, of course.
Civilian targets are against Geneva.
Great breakdown Steve. Thanks for the analysis.
Howie Kurtz takes a harder line on blogger criticism of Bush, though:
I disagree. While Bush can’t stop old animosities from bubbling up, he can certainly step in to try and defuse situations. Clearly he hs refused to do that, essentially abdicating any responsibility an American president has over global peace.
BREAKING: Bush blocked probe into anti-terror spying
Oh. Shit. This cannot stand.
*ilson46201, Israel is a midget? A nuclear power aligned with “the West”. That ain’t no midget. That’s dangerous - a “bad-ass” as you say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192036.stm
“Civilian targets are against Geneva.”
Yes, there are some exceptions of course (if a city is declared a fortified position, for instance), but imho powerhouses and lighthouses, who aren’t of military importance and not operated nor occupied by beligerent forces aren’t among them. If the Israelis don’t come up with a good explanation, this ought to be treated as a war crime.
ilson 16 - I hear ya - there’s good stuff at TPM cafe, but still all this reflexive reactive defensiveness Israelwise - who drives this emotional nonreality thing? More of my friends than not are Jewish, we talk a lot about all this, they fucking HATE what is going on, hated it for a long time.
“There will come a day when the Arabs can resist the IDF and after that, Israel will have no leverage.”
When Iranians (who are admittedly not Arabs) can build missiles capable of badly damaging an Israeli Navy ship that day is rapidly approaching. As far as Iran is concerned it may in fact already be here.
as a progressive, I am apalled at pundits that must find a reason to condemn the Israeli’s war of independence.
You must have never been fired upon to have such a stance. Before you open up and start spewing venom on another, you might try to imagine rockets landing on your friends homes, or suicide bombers, or armies on your land, for 60 years.
Truly embarrassing that a people trying to be free must be condemned by their enemies, and friends that have benefitted from the same kind of revolution. If we forget how freedom is won, we will not value it, and we certainly won’t keep it. How many countries are there that get to vote and have multiple candidates?
but the funniest thing, and least thought out by this post, that one can’t destroy Hizbollah? Are you blind? Do you really believe that this matters when you are defending your life?
When Gilliard is on he is spot on. Hezbolla was hoping for this disproportionate response and they got it. Of the 200 Lebanese killed how many of them have been actual Hezbolla fighters? Almost none because they knew what the Israelis would do and were prepared. Now they are just waiting for the ground invasion.
We are going to have to impeach and disgrace forever both Bush and Cheney and their whole crew and their entire planet-destroying agenda. I don’t know how this is going to happen, but happen it must. Let’s start visualizing it.
I disagree. I do not buy into the notion that Israel has committed so many miscalculations. I think they know quite well what they need to do and are willing to do it. The wild card in the situation is George himself, who (as many of us have noticed) is enjoying slinging the shit at diplomatic events and may withdraw what Kristol et al have promised as unlimited support. But I doubt that will happen. For this event to be truly useful politically in the United States … WHICH IS WHAT IT IS FOR, it has to last for more than a week and has to involve a backing down of Syria and Iran.
Let’s face it; the war party in America is resolved to get back at Iran for the humiliation they bestowed on the U.S. during the Carter administration. Add to that the pretext of preventing a budding nuclear power from emerging, and you have all the Neocons need to keep the conflagration going for a while.
“We need to get more actively involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and we need to be neutral, and talk to all parties.”
Inho, yes. For instance, Dems could point out that the peaceful part of the Lebanese population is needed for helping in the war on terror and keeping the terrorits out of control. Last year, they were the heros of the Cedar Revilution and the new allies of Bush’s campaign to democratize the Middle East. Bombing that very same people now doesn’t make any sense, and will only lead to hatred and a wave of new followerrs for the terrorists.
It should be possible to spread this message without running a risk to be painted as ‘weak on terror’ or ’supporting terrorists’!
Oh, please. Of course you can have a “flame-free discussion” of the Israel-Hezbollah situation when all of the people in the discusison agree that Israel is the aggressor, israel is in the wrong, Israel deliberately targets civilians while Hezbollah does not - in other words, when there are no commentors with the temerity to say y’all are full of it.
This site started out as a must-read for intelligent and cogent legal analysis, with just enough lightweight political snark to be amusing. It’s slowly but surely devolved into an ego-feeding, self-satisfied in-group clique long on lightweight snark and echo-chamber conventional wisdom, and low on actual hard analysis.
I’ve watched as commentors who don’t agree with whatever the Fannish Pronouncement of the Day is get flamed until they leave, and then everyone sits around and pats themselves on the back for preserving the purity of FDL’s wonderfulness.
FDL used to be one of my must-reads multiple times every day. But this one-sided facile non-discussion of the latest Mid-East imbroglio, based on an article by a blogger who (though an excellent fellow in many ways) has been consistently WRONG in both his political predictions and his geopolitical prognostications, just encapsulates what a sad amen chorus this place has turned into.
‘Bye.
Israel is a small country with a small population with no remarkable natural resources — such factors render it fundamentally weak (midget) in the long run. Alliances and cooperation are quite needed by such teeny entities … badass behavior will not protect them forever…
Quick post on Gonzalez’s admission that Bush personally stopped the probe into the NSA spying program.
I seriously can’t believe Gonzalez admitted that in a public hearing. Unbelievable.
Israel cannot afford a war.
It can indeed, thanks to US taxpayers and AIPAC owned senators.
It is US economic and military aid to Israel that makes the conflict Israel has with Palestinians intractable. Hezbollah represents the majority of Shi’a in Lebanon, the largest political group in the country, who also happen to be the poorest and least represented historically. Hezbollah will be almost impossible to destroy without also destroying the Shi’a themselves, which many would consider to be mass murder. The US should suspend all aid to Israel until it begins returning to its 1956 borders, which, in interests of peace, the US should guarantee security for. It is US military aid to Israel that makes all US citizens partly responsible for the conflict and is why we must insist our government stop providing the materiel Israel uses to make war.
DiFi re: Specter’s new FISA….
Why doesn’t Pres submit NSA to FISA NOW? (It IS within current law/statute…)
Gonzo: wriggle, like the slime I am.
as a progressive, I am apalled at pundits that must find a reason to condemn the Israeli’s war of independence.
This was a joke right?
Israel wants one thing Greater Israel and they will use US money, weapons and possibly blood to acheive it. http://antiwar.com/justin/
How do we get the Israelis out of our government?
Hillary is a hawk because that’s where the money is. It is so obvious that the democrats can’t offer up a viable anti war candidate because that ain’t where the money is.
Both parties are bending to the bucks. And the bucks back Israel.
This whole “shock and awe” concept is utter nonsense from the neocons. I guess that’s not so surprising from a cabal that gets their military expertise from playing Risk and Stratego.
Overwhelming force has been tried throughout military history and it rarely, if ever, works to destroy an enemy on their homeland. Did the Jews surrender to overwhelming Roman force at Masada? No, they committed mass suicide instead.
More recently, the Allies used massive bombing of the Ruhr area in Germany during WWII, thinking if we completely destroyed the Germans’ manufacturing base they’d surrender. What happened instead was it hardened their resolve and they become even more determined to fight on.
Nation States do not have friends, only interests.
Israel thinks it’s interests are served by drawing the USA into a wider Middle East conflict.
GW Bush thinks it is in his interest for Israel to give him an excuse to attack Iran.
Iran knows that letting Hezbollah flex it’s muscles against Israel is in Iran’s interest.
Bush is insane, Israel screwed up, and Iran might overplay it’s hand — but there is no question that Iran is the big winner in all of this. Especially the Iranian hard liners, who are almost begging Bush to bomb Iran.
Welcome to the Bushpocalypse, Release 2.0 –
Oh, and collective punishment = nazi mind. Period. Can you say Fallujah? Hunter Thompson was right.
The whole disease of all this finally comes to fdl boards. Humans did not properly solve the Holocaust and here we are at the next war.
This just in, from the STFU Historical Archives Department.
_________________
“…Regime change in Iraq would bring about a number of benefits to the region. When the gravest of threats are eliminated, the freedom-loving peoples of the region will have a chance to promote the values that can bring lasting peace. As for the reaction of the Arab “street,” the Middle East expert Professor Fouad Ajami predicts that after liberation, the streets in Basra and Baghdad are “sure to erupt in joy in the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans.” Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of Jihad. Moderates throughout the region would take heart. And our ability to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process would be enhanced, just as it was following the liberation of Kuwait in 1991…”
Dick Cheney, August 2002
‘In his weekly radio address on March 5, 2005, George W. Bush celebrated “remarkable developments” in the Middle East. “In the last five months, we have witnessed successful elections in Afghanistan, the Palestinian Territory and Iraq; peaceful demonstrations on the streets of Beirut; and steps toward democratic reform in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The trend is clear: In the Middle East and throughout the world, freedom is on the march.”‘
Tim Grieve, Salon.com
_____
Yeah, America is REAL helpful.
“Now they are just waiting for the ground invasion.”
I don’t think the IDF will really invade southern Lebanon. Firstly, check Haaretz and other Israeli sources, the Israelis don’t want to repeat the bloody adventure of 1982. Their memory of it seems to be equivalent to the Vietnam trauma in the US.
Secondly, directly after the kidnapping, a platoon entered Lebanon in pursuit of the Hezbollah fighter. They ran into an ambush and one tank was blown up by a mine or an IED. So, obviously, Hezbollah did prepare the battlefield for exactly this ecentualitiy. I don’t think the IDF will be eager to send their drafted soldiers into such an uncertainty. And what would be gained by it anyway? They surely don’t want to occupy large parts of Lebanon for a longer time. Remember they retreated from Gaza because it way too high a burden on the army. And Hezbollah fighter just have to retreat and mingle with the civilians in order to escape capturing. Imho the IDF doesn’t have good cards for the ground game, and they know that.
“This whole “shock and awe” concept is utter nonsense from the neocons.”
Shock and awe simply doesn’t work in an environment where people are accustomed to violence.
CaseyL at 30 — you know, I don’t believe either Jane or I has placed the blame solely on Israel at any point in time. If you have a factual disagreement with someone in the comments, and the information to back up your position, you are more than welcome to state it. I’ve said a number of times since all of this flared up that there are no clean hands in any of this — that includes Syria, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Iran, Hamas and about a bazillion other splinter/interest groups, including members of the Saudi royal family. This situation is complex, and emotionally charged for a lot of people who have friends and family in teh region or who have long-standing ties to one side or the other. And American interests are clearly at issue in this based on our long-standing commitments to Israel and our efforts toward peace from the Carter Administration (and before) forward.
But to walk off in a huff from a discussion because people don’t agree with you…well, that’s just wrong. And I tire of having to explain to people that posts are simply the start of conversation, not the end of them. So long as people stick to the issues and refrain from invective and nastiness, the comments are a great discussion and give and take. To not participate only ensures that your point of view is not heard. And whose fault is that, then?
And if $10/gal gas takes Hillary down too, I am snoopydancing. Time to get the freak real and start playing well with our fellow imperfect others on this planet.
I think this is a decent analysis of the current Hezbollah-Israeli conflict.
However, I don’t think it quite captures how Hezbollah and Hamas came into existence. They were not simply the result of Israel meddling in local politics. They were born of the Israeli military occupation of southern Lebanon (hezbollah) and gaza and the west bank (hamas).
Their creation is important in understanding why Lebanese and Palestinian civilians - the great majority of them are nowhere near as radical as Hezbollah and Hamas - tend to support these groups when Israel attacks civilian targets.
The worse the situation gets for the average civilian, the more desperate and hopeless the civilian population feels. Hamas and Hezbollah were born of this condition. It is one of the important reasons why they receive greater support when Israel attacks civilian targets.
Nevertheless, I think this analysis supports Steve’s post.
“Israel wants one thing Greater Israel and they will use US money, weapons and possibly blood to acheive it.”
My suspicion, too. And Olmert may really have that in mind. But what’s Peretz role in this charade? Or is he so dumb that the right wingers can simply use him as a tool?
oldtree–
I understand your point, but 60 years ago, the land didn’t belong to the Isralis–they took it by force after the British left.
This fact has little to do with the third generation Israelis living there now, but getting high and mighty about the original land grab is a little extreme.
OT: 3 Arrested in Hospital Deaths After Katrina
A doctor and two nurses have been arrested and booked on suspicion of second-degree murder in connection with the deaths of patients at a medical center in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina struck, a spokeswoman for the Louisiana attorney general’s office said today.
The arrests were part of the culmination of an investigation into accusations that patients might have been euthanized at the Memorial Medical Center in the aftermath of the hurricane. “I won’t say it has ended yet,” said the spokeswoman, Kris Wartelle, reached by telephone. “There could be more things coming down the pike.”
. . .
This administration is not the first to “neglect this region”. I have spent time in Palestine. I think things are painted with too broad a brush when it comes to American’s knowledge of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I know Palestinian families in Israel who have had their land taken away, land that has been in the family for over 100 years. I have seen the camps, the 80% unemployment, the abject poverty. These things among others, over forty years will make people crazy yet the Palistinians have managed for the most part, to maintain a ‘non-violent’ resistance to occupation. Hamas and Hezbollah have both arisen in a vacuum of negligence, Colonialism, racism, and a number of other factors. Neither side is without ’sin’ but you can’t treat people like animals and expect thenm to ‘behave’. These groups are problematic on many levels but in fact, they wouldn’t have come to the power and influence they have if Palestinians were treated like PEOPLE. During my time in Israel I was treated with such warmth and hospitality by Palestinian families I was overwhelmed. This is my experience and of course , my opinion.
Imho the IDF doesn’t have good cards for the ground game, and they know that.
I’ll buy that for now. But after the bellicose crap that has been spewed by so many Israeli leaders over the last few days about not stopping until Hezbollah is destroyed when it becomes clear that their “clean little air war” is not going to doing they may be forced by their own rhetoric to take that step.
Don’t let the door hit ya, Casey. Yes we don’t just opine here, we love each other. Sorry.
Christy:
What happened to my post that shoulda come up at 9:15?
as I put it pithily yesterday: Occupation is a bitch.
Norske at 54 — I don’t know. Will check the filter…just a minute. Was working on my next post…
Gray @30
Inho, yes. For instance, Dems could point out that the peaceful part of the Lebanese population is needed for helping in the war on terror and keeping the terrorits out of control.
Except there is no War on Terror. There’s just some neocons, dismantling our Constitution and using terrorism as a justification for it.
There are factions in Israel that are not content to live within the 1967 borders. They believe that have a mandate from G-d to take over all of the territory ever historically controlled by Jews (aka Greater Israel)…this includes Israel proper, Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai, and parts of Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. And these factions are driving the lack of peace with the Palestinians.
We need to stop aligning ourselves with these factions. Because the Muslims living all around Israel understand the implications of our uncritical support.
Admittedly the situation is complexified by countries like Iran and Syria taking sides, and fighting Israel by proxy. Part of it is that they have never come to terms with Israel’s right to exist within the 1967 borders. Part of it is a reaction to the Greater Israel movement. Part of it is just a desire by Iran and Syria to expand their interests in the region.
The US *should* be a friend of Israel. But we can be a better friend by ending our reflexive support of whatever misguided policies the Israeli government might be voluntarily pursuing. (And I don’t think Olmert’s government is in the Greater Israel camp, but they are making bad decisions that benfit those factions who are).
Oh and for the concern trolls, I don’t see anyone flaming you off of FDL. Try discussing the issue like an adult, and see what happens.
Reading Billion’s latest this morning, I was horrified and dumbstruck. Iran is starting to scare it’s Arab neighbors, which is not a good thing.
Regional destabilization benefits no one — except Iran, and the Iranian hardliners. Since that fact requires a bit of nuance to understand, there is no way it will ever be entertained between the ears of the Decider in Chief.
God. Help. Us. All.
The fate of the world is in the hands of a narcissistic sociopath.
“I understand your point, but 60 years ago, the land didn’t belong to the Isralis–they took it by force after the British left.”
An important point! And why did the Brits leave? Ehy, because they were weary of the continuos attacks by jewish terrorists, like Menachem Begin! Check the history books, look for ‘King David Hotel Bomb’.
Every time the Israelis are condemning terorism, the whole world should shout back: Hypocrissy!
Norske — there’s nothing in the moderation queue. Maybe there was a hiccup on the server?
“Except there is no War on Terror. There’s just some neocons, dismantling our Constitution and using terrorism as a justification for it.”
Sadly, yes. But there are real terrorists and there should be a real campaign against them, conducted by professionals: The international crime units of all civilized countries. Why don’t the US take the lead in organizing this?
Let’s get a few OTHER things straight.
This piece was written by someone who just read a book leading him to believe that no one’s ever had his thoughts about this subject before.
This piece was written by someone who also doesn’t consider that regurgitating these ideas doesn’t actually mean anything to the people who are actually involved in this conflict, most of whom will tell him he hasn’t gotten the actual facts to begin with.
This piece was written by someone who believes that it’s better to err on the side of support for “resistance” groups than that of governments, because all governments are interested in is institutionalized violence and therefore untrustworthy and deserving of what they get. Israel is most wrong not because of what they do, but because it’s more romantic to believe in the stated causes of groups who oppose their alleged warmongering.
Just wanted to get some things straight.
I am guessing that someone isn’t aware that it was Hez or Hiz, depending on who prints it, that started the rocket attack in Israel.
and just in case any of you have forgotten, Israel has given back territory captured in each war they have been involved in. They have never started one, they have only defended themselves in each case. All of their neighbors harbor terrorists that they use to attack Israel. It has always been so. Is this okay with you too?
what about the rockets being fired into Israel? they are targeting anything they can strike, right?
and Israel is trying to minimize casualties to the combatants as best as they can?
I am beginning to wonder if it is anti-semitism that is driving the conversation here. You are condemning a country trying to defend themselves, and apparently, supporting a group of people that don’t care who they kill.
on this alone you should feel some shame. As someone who has the right to talk as a result of our little war of independence, you might want to explore the meaning of ethnic hatred within your own personality
When a young boy sees his little sister obliterated by a bomb he will grow up and pray for the day he can get revenge. It does not take a PhD in Psychology to understand this simple fact.
My prediction is that one day these kids will take out their revenge against Israel and the United States.
We should remember that Mohammad Atu was primarily motivated by anger over the Isreali treatment of Palestinians and anger with America for supporting Israeli agression.
Matt Browner-Hamlin says: “Bush blocked probe into anti-terror spying”
July 18th, 2006 at 8:52 am
Did he block the probe at the behest of others?
“The US *should* be a friend of Israel. But we can be a better friend by ending our reflexive support of whatever misguided policies the Israeli government might be voluntarily pursuing.”
YES! A real friend doesn’t stand by, simply watching while his mate is conducting irresponsible actions that will harm him in the long run.
Did sharkbabe just prove Casey’s point?
Call me cynical if you wish (please…I’ve been called much worse) but observing the politics of this region only confirms my opinion that organized religion in its most extreme and radical form is more a Real Estate play than anything else.
Real estate and money.
First religion will offer either salvation for your sins (Psych. projection) or self-righteous absolutism for the occupation of your mind, heart and soul.
Hardly a fair exchange.
It is only the first spot or ‘estate’ occupied on the Monopoly board.
For as long as we are tied to Terra Firma and stay rooted in this hateful occupation of mind, body and soul, we will face the planet’s most volatile peril.
…imagine there is no religion…-John Lennon
Americans fought our War of Independence to drive out foreign rule — in Israel’s case, it was foreigners driving out indigenous inhabitants who are still pissed about it — Occupation is a bitch.
There is a large Lebanese Christian community in my home state. They are generally prosperous hard working conservative people who are heavilly rethug. I know one family in which every member proudly voted for the shrub twice. I wonder if they have thought about those votes now that Israel has extended it’s bombing into Xtian areas?
Norske –
It’s always a good idea to do a ’select all’ and ‘copy’ before trying to post, especially with something long and thoughtful — sometimes I even remember to do it!
btw — did you see my comment (yesterday?) with the little bits of Gothic-Svear-Rus-Vineland factoids? it was in amongst a Pax Romana discussion.
Why is what’s happening in the Middle East such a horror for the world, honestly? As I see it the oil supply is threatened, which could have an economic impact. There are strong ties between Americans and the region, so the fighting there is tragic and personal. Finally, our military is bogged down in Iraq and could get destroyed by getting caught up in a wide conflict.
Aside from those points, how exactly is a Middle Eastern war between any number of players a world-wide disaster? Isn’t it more like the Bosnia-Croatia-Serbia war? Or maybe what’s happening in Russia with Chechnya?
There are a lot of emotions tied up in what’s going on but the geopolitics seem less severe to me than people like Newt Gingrich would have us believe. During the Cold War Israel and the Arab countries were proxy armies for us and the Russians, so it was a big deal back then. Today it just seems like another tragic regional conflict, not “World War III” (I thought the cool PNAC kids called the Cold War WWIII).
Leahy follows up DiFi’s point re: submitting NSA to FISA now.
Gonzo admits: Yeah. But I wonder about jurisdiction.
me: jurisdiction? huh? but me no lawyer.
Yes, by all means call everyone who disagrees with you an anti-Semite oldtree.
No one here (from what I’ve read) has anything against Jews, Judaism, or Israel existing within the 1967 borders. The issues involve the military adventurism in a neighboring country, for no apparent reason. Of course Israel has a right to defend itself. But defending yourself does not mean attacking a third party (Lebanon) that has no military power to stop the agressors (Hezbollah). And this is a major part of the problem. Israel continually overreacts when they are attacked.
think progress has the clip;
gonzales says the president PERSONALLY rescinded the security clearances of the investigation into the nsa spying on Americans
Hezbollah is still denying that they fired the first two rockets at Haifa which, by the way, only killed one fence. Could the Israelis have staged this initial incident to substantiate continued aggression? Yes they could have, especially if there was a predetermined plan to expand the hostilities to include Syria and Iran. We must watch our government closely because it is looking for an excuse to enter this conflict; however, the provocation justifying such action does not yet exist. It would not surprise me if the cruise ship that’s being used for evacuating Americans did not experience an incident that is attributed to Hezbollah. “Remember the Maine! type incident. Bush/Cheney are not trustworthy.
OT–Leahy bringing up the recruitment of skinheads and the notion of homegrown terrorists.
Abu knows nothing about it– finds it hard to believe.
Yes we don’t just opine here, we love each other.
Sharkbabe, as I visualize Firedoglake as a beautiful sailing ship, I see you, dear, as her figurehead.
oldtree at 63 — I understand that personal emotions on this issue tend to run high, but don’t throw out accusations of anti-semitism where they aren’t warranted. Criticizing national policies of Isreal does not differ from critiquing the national policies of Iran, or Ukraine, or anywhere else — it’s just that often when someone tries to do so, the anti-semitism flag gets thrown down. And I, for one, find that disingenuous, having had a number of friends (including one serious almost fiance) who are Jewish and who have NOT agreed with Israeli Likud and other policies through the years.
Disagreement with or discussion about policy decisions has nothing to do with religious belief. And we would all do well to remember that.
That said, some folks have come dangerously close on remarks about “dual citizenship” and other comments on Israeli policies the last few days. And I am going to exercise my ability to moderate on those posts that I find questionable, because I will not tolerate stuff that is even remotely close to the anti-semitism line. Period. (That goes for anti-Islamic as well.) Stick to policy discussions, and not to ethnic generalizations folks. I mean it.
Throwing blame around never solves anything. I like Christy’s statement about many shades of gray, and as she points out, they are painted by many hands.
It’s sad for me to see that there is no lasting peace there. As human beings we have the capacity to solve as many problems as we create. We have seen so many times that when people pull together, how powerful the solution can be.
I’m an idealist. The human condition is one we all share. How we manifest the intelligence and power that the universe bestows us is up to us. We know better, we know what the choices are, and the choice is up to us to either stand by and destroy each other, or we could pull together and solve the problems.
I realize there are many issues that need to be addressed. The scars of this conflict are deep, and touch the pysche of the souls of the nations involved. They have to be adressed to promote the healing that’s needed.
The blame game never solved any problems. Responsiblity has to be taken by all the people who created this misery. I hope that one day that will happen.
Christy 45:
.
Because of your recent comments on the subject, I’ve tempered my own tone just a bit. Not my position, but my style of expressing myself here at FDL on this issue. The criticism of you is without any foundation what.so.ever.
Coulter-like Accusations of anti-semitism are designed to shut down legitimate debate…
FDLers welcome all truth…even that which is most painful about ourselves. Go elsewhere for the kool-aid.
“I am guessing that someone isn’t aware that it was Hez or Hiz, depending on who prints it, that started the rocket attack in Israel.”
Wrong guess. Steve stated that Hezbollah had an interest in starting this war, and the comments seem to support this view.
“Israel has given back territory captured in each war they have been involved in.”
Hmm, all territory?
“They have never started one, they have only defended themselves in each case.”
Excuse me pls, I seem to remember at least one preemptive war? Afaik modern Historians don’t support your statement.
“All of their neighbors harbor terrorists that they use to attack Israel.”
Egypt? You wanna tell us they don’t do enough against terrorism?
“what about the rockets being fired into Israel? they are targeting anything they can strike, right?”
You feel ok using the same methods as those Hezbollah terrorists?
“and Israel is trying to minimize casualties to the combatants as best as they can?”
By bombing roads, bridges, powerhouses, lighthouses, factories and border crossing in central and northern Lebanon?
“I am beginning to wonder if it is anti-semitism that is driving the conversation here.”
Same old, same old. Everytime Israel is critizised, some guys say that’s anti-semitism. You used that trick way too often, this pig doesn’t fly as easily anymore.
“You are condemning a country trying to defend themselves, and apparently, supporting a group of people that don’t care who they kill.”
Again, Israel doesn’t really try to kill the terorists or else they would invade southern Lebanon. And they don’t only use pinpoint attacks on Hezbollah outposts. Instead, the IDF is bombing roads, bridges, powerhouses, lighthouses, factories and border crossing in central and northern Lebanon.
“on this alone you should feel some shame. As someone who has the right to talk as a result of our little war of independence, you might want to explore the meaning of ethnic hatred within your own personality”
Ad hominem as the discussion weapon of last resort?
Sry for fisking you, but it was necessary. Such nonsense shouldn’t stand unanswered.
Gonzo not admitting to tapping journos, but tap dancing as fast as he can.
For those commenters who say “they started it” —
There are no good actors on this stage — everyone’s hands are dirty. Israel, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, the USA, everyone has dirty hands.
The USA used to have credibility as an honest broker, but that has been bled away by the Bush fantasies in Iraq.
oldtree says at 63
PLEASE, let’s not start with the you must agree with Israel’s actions or you are antisemitic. One should be able to discuss the motivations and consequences of all parties involved in this mess without being called names. Not to understand that are legitimate issues and problems on both sides is naive, if not delusional. So let’s try to keep this from devolving into personal attacks. If we can’t listen to other points of view, then how can we ever expect compromises that might end the suffering in the region (on both sides).
Loosehead:
I am sick at heart about your puppy. I know it happens, but it is always awful and such a waste.
Note on colostrum and immunity: they only need the first day or two, which Mittens got, for the colostrum. After that, formula is fine. (I can repost my favorite formula, if you want.)
My advice? Put that puppy under your (LHP’s) sweater and carry it around with you most of the time. It’ll be fine.
It doesn’t need a mother who is so messed up right now.
And singletons are sometimes the most tuned in and remarkable dogs.
Should I keep my opinion of STBEx to myself? Let us say that as a breeder, my take is that only those people who do not take their eyes off the babies for the first ten days are experts. Basement? I don’t think so.
This means either separating mom and pups so you can sleep, or tag-teams of puppy watchers.
And Grandma, I have to take exception to your characterization of all men as not having the mothering thing, although I sure know plenty of those dogs-belong-in-the-back-yard-unless-we’re-out-huntin’ types. Match ‘em up with a wife who likes white carpet and you’ve got yourself a dog that should be somewhere else.
Mr. Little Dog has it, for both human and canine wee ones. And he’s no metro-sexual mister, either. :) He’s a big ol’ Alpha Dog, whom teenagers fear, and other men respect.
I had his handsome self pegged, though, when, on one of our first dates, he crossed his legs, revealing a Care Bears sticker, stuck to the bottom of his shoe. :)
If he had a nickel for every night he’s been the puppy watcher, he could buy himself a much younger wife!
I believe a custody fight for little Mittens is called for. I’ll testify for you. :)
Damn! Good on Pat Leahy! “This Administration at some point in time needs to stop blaming everything on the Clinton Administration, and start taking responsibility for its own actions.” Mwahahaha. Good on Leahy!
digs at Leahy: about intel, you know Sen….
(old story ref)
LEAHY indignant.
“Sharkbabe, as I visualize Firedoglake as a beautiful sailing ship, I see you, dear, as her figurehead.”
As a regular lurker here, may I be the ship’s ghost? I already have the right color!
:D
Well, 2 brush fires are burning for Israel. Palestinians/Hamas, and up north, Hezbollah.
1. Palestinians: I give Israel a big fat “F” in this problem. Looong ago Israel should’ve taken the high road, settled with these folks, given them back their land (much of it occupied via goofball Netanayu’s policies), and let the palestinians get on with life. Sure, there’s some palestinians who write “death to Israel”, and all that. And there ARE some idiot palestinians who terrorize israel….but I still think if they’d get their land back, slowly but surely the violence would subside.
2. Hezbollah: now, they’re another problem. They really don’t have any land claims. There’s no “hezbollah-land” that they want returned. Hezbollah just has one mission in life: kill the jews. Kinda hard to deal with those types! But, a few years back, Israel should’ve, VERY quietly, started dealing with the Lebanese gov’t. Help make them stronger and all. That would’ve helped the gov’t deal with Hezbollah more effectively. It would take time and patience.
Mr. Gilliard is correct…the intial Israeli plan to eliminate Hezbollah via airstrikes won’t work. You can bomb the crap out of them…but like cockroaches, they’ll come back. I have NO sympathy for Hezbollah, but that old phrase “boots on the ground” is the only way to handle Hezbollah. Israel shouldn’t do that…but, in time, a stronger Lebanese Army could.
Ghostman
Abu disputes the 700 number signing statements and says it’s closer to 110 -125; brings up Clinton’s 300 . Always the Clinton card.
leahy says the preznit is not following the law.
sessions says it’s much ado about little or nothing.
Brian Williams on Countdown last nite repeated several times that this is an Israeli plan five years in the making. It seems to me that W is complicit in this, having helped get Syria out of Lebanon, and then abandoned any support for the Lebanese government.
The continued neocon fantasy — propogated by Kristol et al that this is our good war — has brought us to the brink, and crippled the only world actor who’s ever been able to help move peace forward, the American President.
These treasonous fucktards may just fry us all, or part of that which I consider us, we humans. Fuck them and send them the fuck to Nuremberg for a trial on their war crimes. W, Cheney, Abu, Rumsfeld, et al, like that foto darkblack did of them in the dock….
Great post, Steve, and welcome to the ‘lake, where, as you can see, we are all of one opinion, and re-state it lovingly to one another over and over….
I think #3 doesn’t get anywhere near enough attention.
The Israeli government is so used to having their strategic interests treated as US strategic interests that they probably no longer think about the fact that the divergences cut both ways. The problem is, when Kristol et al talk about “protecting Israel” they’re not talking about the boring, tedious, tricky business of protecting the lives and livelihoods of actual human beings (let alone those icky Palestinians). They’re talking about protecting the symbolic nature of the state, and the power (and military capacity and proximity to oil) that the state imparts to the people who run it. I don’t think Bill Kristol cares very much whether anyone — Arab or Jew — can comfortably live there.
Ha. It just occurred to me that this one thing I can give Lieberman full credit for — he seems to be sincere in his desire to protect Israelis.
oldtree, I think Gideon Levy wants to have a word with you over at Ha’aretz…