
The Age of Fallibility: Consequences of the War on Terror is an ambitious and serious book, and one which propels an incredibly politically incorrect (2006 version) argument imperative for our times. If you have not had the time to read the book, I wholeheartedly recommend you do so.
Let’s begin, first, with Mr. Soros himself. A longtime philanthropist and childhood escapee from Nazi Germany, experience has made him painfully aware of what folly the madness of crowds can propel. He’s made a career of recognizing the madness of crowds in financial markets, betting against the herd to become one of the world’s wealthiest men. He brings those same sensitivities to the current delusional bubble in American politics.
But let’s start at the beginning: Soros begins his discussion from a core philosphical framework, some first principles through which he comes to understand and explain the nature of human cognition, knowledge acquisition, rationality and the limits of rationality. In fact, he is not primarily a political thinker or even one comfortable in the rough and tumble world of hardcore politics.
Having had the opportunity to discuss his book with him, I can tell you Mr. Soros longs for a world where rational people can put their arguments into the public domain for consideration by a fair and willing citizen audience. He is not a partisan, temperamentally predisposed to fight for any political party. By personality, he prefers calm centrists far more than I do, as my diagnosis of what is unfortunately politically necessary in this age of polarization and monumental global stakes probably differs a bit from his (rabid lamb that I am). But on the fundamental ideas put forward in his book, he and I are in agreement.
The first part of the book lays out his philosophical first principles, the upshot of which is that no individual can perfectly know the full truth. Therefore, human societies must protect themselves from gross error by committing themselves to becoming and remaining open societies, places where all voices can be heard and considered. A commitment to open society is the ultimate cure, in Soros’ view, to our current Age of Fallibility.
In the second part of the book, Mr. Soros applies the principles delineated in the first part to our current national politics. He then makes this provocative point (from page 102):
But the war on terror was counterproductive. It embroiled the United States in an adventure that cannot succeed and from which it will be difficult to withdraw. In my judgment, it was in its response to 9/11 that the United States left reality behind and got lost in far-from-equilbrium territory. The terrorist attack was real indeed, and it required a strong response; but the response chosen by the Bush administration carried the notion into a fantasy land created by a misrepresentation of reality. What is worse, people still do not recognize the phantasmagoric element in the war on terror. I shall have a hard time getting my point across because the war on terror has been unquestioningly accepted by the public; indeed, it is seen as the natural response to the terrorist attacks of 9/11 even by those who are opposed to the Bush administration’s policies.
In my interpretation, the war on terror is a false metaphor – the opposite of a fertile fallacy. It has been used by the Bush administration to further its own objectives, but those objectives are opposed to the principles of open society and harmful to the national interest. Eventually, the war on terror even proved detrimental to the Bush administration’s own interests because it has had unintended adverse consequences: The invasion of Iraq turned into a disaster.
It find it quite tempting to quote at greater length. While Mr. Soros lays out in more patient, calm detail much of what I earlier discussed in this tub thumping protest piece (whose core argument has been echoed today by the NYT Editorial Page), I find his dissection of our current society and politics all the more devastating for being more comprehensive. Before he’s done, he takes on our weakness as a "feel good society," nuclear proliferation, global warming and the global energy crisis. Did I mention you should buy this book?
I’m glad Jane will offer us the opportunity to discuss the book again next week in Part II of our review of The Age of Fallibility: Consequences of the War on Terror. But for the purposes of today’s discussion, I’d like to make a bit of a transition to get some ideas flowing from the community here. The problem I’d like to highlight is underscored in the text I’ve chosen to quote: how can we as progressives reorient our society so that it comprehends that the so-called war on terror is a fallacy, a false metaphor? How do we do this when even Democrats intone the language of the "war on terror" to explain their policies and positions? How do we educate the culture so that it understands that the very notion of the "war on terror" we currently accept uncritically is entirely false?
When I wrote my provocative piece linked above, it drew a good deal of attention across the blogosphere, and the Yellow Elephant, 101st Fighting Keyboardist crew inhabited our comments section to fling feces, hurl threats, spew hate and share their colorful wishes for my gruesome, speedy demise (we deleted the worst and left the rest, without, may I add, collapsing to the fainting couch).
It seems to me there are two strategies open to progressives. First, we can directly counter the false "war on terror" metaphor directly by pointing out its falsehood and unreality. This is my position and Soros’ position, though I am more aggressive in making the case forcefully in the political arena. To Soros, the "war on terror" metaphor is like a market bubble primed to pop. Alternately, progressives can take take the approach articulated well by John Aravosis at Americablog, a contrary position I myself find compelling and appealing on some level. In this approach, it can be argued that the war on terror is necessary, and it would be nice if we had actually begun one. In this approach, progressives would seek to redefine the "war on terror" on our own terms, arguing instead on behalf of our own, more realistic security strategies.
The differences between these two approaches are in part strategic and in part philosophical. Tactically and politically, it’s an exceedingly difficult thing to do to redefine an overarching political metaphor and rhetorical cudgel so successfully deployed, in its way, by the other side. For my part, I don’t believe you can take down failed conservative policies by deploying conservative rhetoric, even if you seek to redefine it. Progressives (and political movements in general) do not succeed by playing on the visiting field, utilizing what Lakoff describes as the other side’s "frames." What’s more, Democrats, including John Kerry in 2004, have sought without success to deploy this redefinition strategy, to disappointing results.
On another level, the philosophical difference between these alternate approaches relates to the applicability of the metaphor of "war" on a tactic, or on, as I described it in my previous post, an emotion. National security relies most on, as Soros argues, the protection and promotion of the principles of an open society, both at home and abroad. Moving the discussion to these terms, progressives may create an opportunity in the national dialogue to propel an alternate vision for security consistent both with our values and a pragmatic assessment of international reality.
In my view, moving the discussion to such alternate terrain allows us to make a meaningful case against the very truthfulness, applicability or strategic wisdom of the so-called "war on terror." It appears conservatives find these direct attacks on their faith-based ideology of a "war on terror" fundamentally threatening, evidenced by their determined rush into our comments section when we argued directly against it. This further suggests, in my view, that direct attacks on the very truthfulness and reality of a "war on terror" will be more effective in changing the national dialogue, if only because they will concentrate more attention on the fundamental issues at stake. Finding Mr. Soros’ argument truthful, I further believe that, politically, it will ultimately be the most successful, even as it most certainly will encounter immediate, determined, harsh and irrational resistance.
I acknowledge, as Mr. Soros does, that ours is the minority view. Accordingly, I’d like to open this argument up to the community: which approach is best? Which approach is most truthful? And when philanthropic idealists like Mr. Soros become the subject of hateful, defamatory, false attacks based on his ideas, what should be done to defend him? If elected Democrats, presumably opponents of the current administration (Hi, Joe!), are to succeed in promoting the principles of an open society while attacking the prevailing conception of the "war on terror," what must be done to embolden them to make the necessary case? Finally, isn’t the "war on terror" falsehood the shoehorn the right wing is trying to use to slip us uncritically into war with Iran, against all reason or sober assessment of our national security interests and strategic priorities?



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Hello, Pach. This will be an enjoyable discussion.
Please confine discussion in this thread to the topic. Other topics can continue in the thread just below this one. Thanks!
Hi Pach, It’s beautiful today where I live, but I was so dumbfounded by this book that here I am, inside, on my computer, hoping there will be more than 3 of us ;-)
Especially relevant for my thoughts to start out: “some first principles through which he comes to understand and explain the nature of human cognition, knowledge acquisition,
I think this is part of Soros’s strength, and it inevitably leads one to your conclusion, which I interpret as: “expose the WOT as the fraud that it is.”
I find it ironic that free market fundamentalists hate Soros so much. He’s what they all wannabe.
I am about 2/3 of the way through this book. It is thought-provoking but I’m finding it a difficult read, although I really like the concept of “equilibrium”. IMO it will be very difficult to re-define the “war on terror” and I’m not sure progressives should even want to. Those who pay 5 minutes of attention to world events once/week can learn the GWOT has become a joke or fruitless but probably won’t stick around long enough to learn a new definition. Better to frame the issue using different words.
Beautiful here today too (another SoCal resident)
I’ll also add that I was familiar with Karl Popper’s work on philosophy of science, and that I think much of this book is, unfortunately, too ‘intellectual’ for many Americans… but very, very important for our future.
Soros is an example of exactly what is WRONG with the stupid liberals. Instead of looking at the problem operationally and analytically, he decides to play philosopher. He would never make an investment in an enterprise as poorly thought out as his political activity. Where is the smart marketing organization to sell the idea of an open society, rationality, tolerance and the other virtues that Mr. Soros claims to support. It should be pretty damn obvious that the only people who you can persuade with facts, logic, and reason are already on your side. Preaching to the choir is not productive.
the continued linkage in much US news to Iran and Syria as being the real powers behind terrorist attacks on Israel is very disquieting. It is being alleged that Iran is fomenting this kerfuffle so as to obfuscate their non-acquiescence on the uranium-enrichment issue. We all know how the Bush Administration has been salivating at the prospects of “dealing with Iran” — hammering on the Iran equals terrorism angle is the ideological softening-up going now.
citizen k either works for a dysfunctional biz outfit, or knows nothing of good biz practices.
At the core, SUCCESSFUL businesses hold very clear principles. See “Built to Last”, a Biz School classic. Based on the fact that it unearthed the not-so-startling fact that every solid, fiscally well managed corp has at its core a set of guiding principles.
citizen k, educate yourself so your life will be more useful.
This book was such an exceptional read. Let me just say that up front. And I adored the philosophical colloquy at the start of it. That said, it is also a tough read — and this is a discussion that so needs to be had in this country and around the world right now.
What is the best means to eradicate terrorism and the need for extremist ideology? Just looking at the news from the Middle East today, I sure wish I had some easy answers. But there are NO easy answers on this — which is part of what Mr. Soros is saying, and I fear that the Bush Administration does not have the patience for laying a long-term foundation and then the systematic building blocks which are required to allow for a more sustainable and equitable future for the cast-offs who are rushing to so many of the extremist positions, especially those which advocate violence as a means of revenge for current situations.
And without a change of course, I fear where things will continue to go…and for the safety not just of myself and my family now, but for my child and her family in whatever future spins out from here. I truly hope that everyone will read this book and begin this discussion.
One thing I’ve learned about Soros from reading a few of his books is that he is not a true believer. He learns from experience and adjusts accordingly, NOT like SOME people we know.
citizen k:
Your opinion is your own, but I think you’re out of line.
Mr. Soros has done the public a tremendous service by using his platform and intelligence to advance this argument. He purposely reached out to those of us who do know a thing or two about getting ideas out into the national discussion because he understands his strengths and ours.
I’m not going to be very patient with attacks on Soros when he has so manifestly done everyone here a great service.
How do you “sell” non-easy answers and laying the groundwork to the voting public?
Citizen K at 8;
I beg to differ, Soros is hardly stupid and liberal in teh way you think he is. He has created ‘democracy centers’ in each Eastern European country after the Berlin wall fell and promoted real democratic principles long before the neocons and George Bush made a travesty of that idea.
If you’re going to criticize, know what you’re talking about.
Also, FYI, totally intriguing that citizen k misses (as do most conservatives) the fundamental fact that biz only addressses its customers, shareholders, vendors. Politics is actually much more complex. It has to deal with **everyone** — much more complicated proposition.
And Soros does not play philosopher, IMHO. He draws on a very rigorous thought process to identify what is True, what is False.
In today’s politics, the truth is thought not to matter, and those who create artifice (like Rove) are celebrated. Soros speaks about the dangers of this — we’re caught admiring our own image in the mirror, while the world as it is diverges farther away from our assumptions about it.
It leaves us LESS powerful, because we can’t grapple with reality (ie, things as they are, not as we want or desire).
kalina77:
I’m glad you brought out Soros’ very successful work in promoting open societies in Eastern Europe through his foundation. He descibes those efforts at some length in the book for illustrative purposes, and I did not get to cover that in my main discussion post.
Also, yes, the book is a difficult read. So what? Who says that everything has to be populist? The idea here is for intelligent people to have an intelligent discussion. It’s the politicans’ job to translate those ideas into a Reader’s Digest version…
I think this is part of Soros’s strength, and it inevitably leads one to your conclusion, which I interpret as: “expose the WOT as the fraud that it is.”
The War On Terror’s primary purpose is to conceal the war on reality and reason.
In today’s politics, the truth is thought not to matter, and those who create artifice (like Rove) are celebrated. Soros speaks about the dangers of this — we’re caught admiring our own image in the mirror, while the world as it is diverges farther away from our assumptions about it.
I haven’t read the book, but this covers two huge problems in one comment: One is the media’s lack of interest in presenting the truth; the other is a pervasive belief that America is virtuous by definition, so anyone who says America is doing bad things is a crazy unpatriotic America-hater.
kak at 15 — that is something with which I have been wrestling for the last couple fo weeks, actually. Messaging on this particular issue is so bound up in emotional issues and fear and terror and 9/11 and so many other visual and heart-rending issues from the twin towers to our soldiers on the battlefield and elsewhere. And the Bush Adminstration has been playing up those images in order to tell the story it wants the public to know for the last five years. It is a very difficult thing to begin a dialogue about this from the back end of that.
Pach is absolutely right that George Soros has done the heavy lifting in getting the conversation the least bit started with this book. But we have to find a way to keep the conversation going — for all of our sakes — from this point forward. And we need to all put our brains on finding the way to more effectively discuss the issues involved without the conversation devolving into a finger-pointing, invective filled “you are unpatriotic” hate fest as it generally does with the right wing pundits who have been propping up George Bush’s failed foreign policies. We see what whirlwind we are reaping this week, and it doesn’t seem to get much better from here without a substantial re-thinking of our direction and our long-term path. And that will require a repudiation of what has come before this…
Oh tea-leaf-reader, you know nothing about me and even if what you said were true, it would be irrelevant (that’s why that type of “to-the-person” argument was not recommended by Aristotle). The Republicans have a brilliant PR operation that is allied with Evangelical and the larger corporate PR system. The left/liberals have the ideological equivalents of smudgy mimeographs. Soros full page ad purchases during the last election may have made him feel better, but had zero chance of attracting a single vote. When Robert Parry has to beg for funding, when there is not a single liberal PR firm, no TV to match the range from 700 club to PBS NewsHour, no think tank, no newspaper to match the Washington Times, no media smarts at all, something is terribly wrong.
parachutec at 18:
any time…Ii was born in Bulgaria and escaped with my parents from the communists. Although I’ve lived more years in the USA than in my native country, I care deeply about true democracy. This is why I have tremendous respect for Soros. Very few rich people actually have accomplished what he has done. And he’s very self-critical…
Now if only the Republicans can succumb to a little bit of self-criticism, we wouldn’t be where we are today.
I see that “what’s his names” comment was deleted, You can delete mine as well as I was only taking a shot at him and now my comment makes no sense.
And we need to all put our brains on finding the way to more effectively discuss the issues involved without the conversation devolving into a finger-pointing, invective filled “you are unpatriotic” hate fest as it generally does with the right wing pundits who have been propping up George Bush’s failed foreign policies.
Christy, I don’t see any way to do that. I can’t think of anything we can say, no matter how reasonable and self-evident, that would not be met with the usual accusations of rabid angry unpatriotism. It’s their favorite M.O., regardless of what *we* say.
Let me rephrase: The Right is not accusing us of treason because we’re not framing our ideas properly. They’re accusing us of treason because that’s what they do.
Soros says that free markets and multinationals have left the public good behind. Not coldly, intentionally; it’s just not what they are for. This is where government fits in. People make a mistake thinking that Big Business, which seems so ginormous and overpowering to us, has supplanted government and will look out for the public weal. It is still up to us to look after our democracy.
This admins bent for secrecy precludes public discussion abut the issues we really need to discuss, as a society. Our society’s tendency to nincompoopery, its anti-intellectual bent, is also a hindrance. Infotainment doesn’t want us to feel bad. We might stop buying.
I used to bristle at my Mom’s constant, mocking refrain “If it feels, good, do it.” about my generation. At the time, I thought she meant my tendency to prefer reading to cleaning my room or some other teen behavior; she never really explained what she meant.
WE just may need to sacrifice a lot in the very near future.
Eli @ 18, I’m not sure you’re actually accurate. I sympathize with the frustration.
Think about Soros’ views of the importance of cognition (ie, ‘how we think what we think’). If you view this through that lens, then the more important questions revolve around how the nervous system is affected by constant, repeated threats, belligerance, hostility.
It’s as if we’ve created some sort of abusive culture and that’s very, very, very dangerous. How do we get out of the ‘mutual hostility’ where politics is driven by sound bites and images of explosions, on to a more engaging, important converstion…
One question of that conversation might be, “what happens to people (physiologically) over time as they feel more and more neglected, abused, damaged?”
CHS speaks to that often when she references former victims… part of her work in prosecuting was (in some sense, I assume) to help heal by some kind of rendering justice.
So how does having some sense of ‘balance restored’ or justice affect people… physiologically?
Okay… I apologize! I’m sounding way, way, waaayyyyy too ‘research oriented’ or abstract here.
But in the end, we’re a bunch of neurons (made of molecules) and we generate hormones, and those affect us. Rather than putting Paxil in the drinking water, how do we CREATE, MODEL, and REINFORCE BEHAVIORS that teach people how to engage in political activities thoughtfully…?
(Age old human issue, BTW… just very, very out of hand, and even more critical, today)
Hey all, very important book. I don’t mean to sidetrack Pach’s discussion, but I think the starting point for conversation should perhaps be: what is the “war on terror” a metaphor for?
Obviously, at one level, it’s a metaphor for war on a tactic. Ted Sorensen, JFK’s speechwriter, recently analogized it to “war on blitzkrieg.” Even at this simplest level, that metaphor has troubling definitional ambiguities. I’ve seen “terrorism” defined as everything from organized violence against civilians to achieve tangible political objectives, to violence intended to incite a disproportionate response from a state power. Those responses are in at least one sense opposites: violence as a negotiating tactic v. violence as a destabilizing tactic.
Then there’s the way that Al Qaeda uses terrorism; is it unique? And of course, the way that the administration and the media use “terrorism” to refer to asymetrical attacks against military targets in Iraq.
At a deeper level, the “war on terrorism” is, of course, a metaphor for much more. In some sense, it’s been used to refer to the Bush Doctrine. It’s also been used as a metaphor for the “global struggle against violent etxremism,” the rather brief administration reframe of the issue. And it’s been used by those on the right as a metaphor for a war against Islam.
The indeterminacy of the metaphor is, in fact, a huge part of why it’s such a strategic nonstarter. It’s become a simple political tool, useful for domestic political purposes and to some extent in diplomacy. Anything can be inserted into its empty vessel: from invading Iraq, to supporting oppressive regimes in South America, to enacting harsh controls on immigration here at home.
Maybe I should rephrase my opening question. Is it even fair to think of the GWOT as a metaphor?
Eli at 25 — Yes, but that invective is losing its effectiveness with the general public. (Witness the Iowa newspaper whose conservative readership asked them to pull Ann Coulter’s syndicated column because her viewpoint no longer resonated with them, and they were shamed by it.) If the message is crafted so that it resonates with the majority of Americans, the invective on the other side rings hollow — and we find ourselves now at a point where there is an opportunity to serve as a check on the extreme ideology that has been at the forefront of American politics the last five years. Anything I can do to help tip that balance, I want to do as effectively as I can — and that goes for all of us.
FWIW, George Soros does contribute to progressive political candidates — even in Indianapolis !
Eli says: “They’re accusing us of treason because that’s what they do”.
Absolutely true! It’s the only weapon they have. As everyone can see reality doesn’t play to a script written by marketing consultants.
I don’t have as big a problem with the actual phrase “war on terror” as some other people do. I think it’s simply an imprecise, but catchy way of saying “war on terrorists”. The problem is that that’s not the war they’re engaged in, which is more of a war to *create* terrorists.
tea-leaf writes Also, FYI, totally intriguing that citizen k misses (as do most conservatives) the fundamental fact that biz only addressses its customers, shareholders, vendors. Politics is actually much more complex. It has to deal with **everyone** — much more complicated proposition.
I’m sorry but that’s just not correct. If you watch TV you will see very smart messaging by companies like ADM which have no consumer business at all and perhaps you missed the brilliant insurance company harry-and-david campaign that sunk health reform. The Republican party itself has a brilliant marketing operation that was sending out sharply crafted messages to identified market segments while Soros was writing a huge dense essay that was about as effective as a Pacifica radio show. Marketing works. My neighbors who all believe that Republicanism is associated with small government, tough guys, and family, are not stupid, but they are not going to have their belief dented by philosopy lectures.
What irritates me about Soros is that he is manifestly a smart guy but if he was determined to stop George Bush, he should have actually made an effort.
Citizen, Just because you tout a propaganda machine that would be the envy of 1938 Germany is no reason to think you are on the correct side. Mumble “rosebud” a couple of times and fade into history.
(Hit submit instead of preview. Premature commentaculation)
Soros is right about our feel good nation. He means the military-infotainment-complex, I think. No rigor to our thinking, no rigor in our lives. Nothing that might break our self-satisfied stupor. TV and movies and the reality shows leave us no time for our own lives.
So, how to disseminate Soros’ idea about the WOT more directly to the writers, producers, directors?
Christy, I hope you’re right. If we (or the Democrats) can, in fact, make the American people really *see* what the Republicans are doing, and by extension just how stupid and cowardly and hateful they are assuming the American people to be, there will be a backlash repudiation of epic proportions.
The question is, how to do it? Is it enough just to say, “This is what they do. This is what they think of you. We know you’re better than that.”?
Look, folks, let’s stick to ideas. Citizen K expressed a point of view, in terms not very conducive to discussion, but a point of view.
Let’s stay focused on the topic, not each other.
And everyone, conduct the discussion with respect, please, or the deleting machine will crop up in earnest.
citizen k at 21 – astute remarks. I think that Soros would say that he ‘conjectured’ that at least putting an ad in the paper and tossing the issue to some sort of visibility would help. When it was ‘refuted’ by the fact that his action didn’t change thngs enough, he adapted.
Your point at 21 is a good one.
(BTW: One of Popper’s books is titled, “Conjectures & Refutations” although I don’t even know whether it is still in print.)
Don’t feed the troll.
Okay, You are so right. Forgive me for getting angry.
Also, I don’t think we can turn the phrase ‘war on terror’ around. I think what people need to understand is that this isn’t a conventional war played by the same rules as WWII.
For me the most important point is that this administration has showed complete INCOMPETENCE understanding terrorism and how to battle it.
Steve Clark: I point out that the liberals have been marginalized and allowed the right to dominate the government because there is no counter to their propaganda machine and all you can do is sneer.
Eli at 35 — ah, that is the puzzle on which I have been chewing for the last couple of weeks since finishing this book. There has to be a better way to craft the discussion and the message. But we have to all be pulling the oars in the same direction for that to work — and messaging with Democrats is like herding cats. (Heavens, just trying to do it with other bloggers is like herding cats…)
That’s why this book is such an important start to the conversation, to my mind anyway. Mr. Soros manages to construct a framework for the thought process and the other possibilities — and there has to be a way to get people to see that there ARE other possibilities…
citizen: we’ve addressed this matter of the tenor of this discussion. Let’s move on, please.
(sigh) Whatever…..
While I agree with George Soros’ premise and have tremendous respect for his work, I am disheartened about the short term chances for success, and horrified by what may play out in the meantime.
I think it was George Lakoff who wrote that when a commonly accepted frame conflicts with the truth, the truth will be rejected.
With the ideological madmen controlling the asylum, the ascendancy of the seductive simplistic lie over the complex truth is even harder to overcome.
As for the “War on Terror” — the concept is so deeply embedded in the American Psyche, I’m not sure that either the Avarosis or Pachacutec approaches have much chance for success — but I’m open to persuasion.
the fault dear Pachacutec lies with you in not listing the multitudinous political activities of George Soros. Most of us here are somewhat acquainted with the man. Poor Citizen K seems to imagine that Soros closets himself on Wall Street and writes philosophical dissertations for his mode of social change. As I mentioned above, even out in here in Indianapolis, Soros has been involved in supporting progressive politics … perhaps we can have a Georgian or a Ukrainian chime in for Citizen Ks edification ?
Christy @43:
Is it enough for us bloggers to start saying… well, whatever we come up with? Or do we somehow need to get Democratic congresscritters and candidates saying it? Because that’s going to be *really* tricky – most of them don’t seem to like calling bullshit on the Republicans. I guess it’s impolite or something.
Progressives (and political movements in general) do not succeed by playing on the visiting field, utilizing what Lakoff describes as the other side’s “frames.” What’s more, Democrats, including John Kerry in 2004, have sought without success to deploy this redefinition strategy, to disappointing results.
That is our problem in a nutshell. When Kerry tried to float the idea that
he was pulverized by the republicans because they owned the framing on terrorism. I fear we can’t do a damn thing about it until we solve the problem of corporate control of the media furthering the interests of the corporatocracy rather than the interestes of America.
CHS @22 –
Thanks.
Eli @ 36 — The difficult part is the “seeing”. From my personal experience, trying to engage some people with different political opinions — particularly the “war on terror” — they just stop listening as soon as there is any logical dissonance on their side. Some of them are reachable/ought-to-be-reachable. “Had enough?” might work in the near term but we need a more positive way to discuss it.
Given the massive instability, uncertainty, and dread that defines the current international situation, I think we’ve got a pretty good opportunity to politically redefine the GWOT.
Things are screwed for two reasons: conservative policies have failed, and conservative strategy is wrong. They don’t care about getting things right, they only care about remaining true to their absurd theories.
The American people are waking up to the fact that conservative policies have failed. They see Iraq; they see the worsening situations in Iran, North Korea, even Russia. Hell, some of us even read about the fall of Somalia a couple of weeks back.
The challenge is to explain how those failures are derived from conservative thinking, and how we need to return to a foreign policy more consonant with the American foreign policy tradition. Redefining the GWOT is an important start.
Well, ck, I begin with this:
There is no war on terror.
Hilarity ensues.
Repeat and argue on a wide scale, and public perceptions change. It’s not rocket science. It’s a matter of consistency and repetition.
The truth only has no chance when truth-tellers surrender at the get-go.
CHS at 29: the invective on the other side rings hollow — and we find ourselves now at a point where there is an opportunity to serve as a check on the extreme ideology that has been at the forefront of American politics the last five years. Anything I can do to help tip that balance, I want to do as effectively as I can
Christy, to my fascination, I am seeing those same dynamics in my part of the US (large tracts of the West). People are fundamentally decent, and I think they were starting to wake up before Katrina… but it’s a different dynamic than I saw 2 years, or even one year ago.
But they’re sick of being treated dishonestly, IMHO. So for the Dem’s to simply say, “We’re not those bad Repub’s” is kind of … “doh.”
Soros seems to recognize very clearly that this is a CULTURAL issue… if it was as simple as one party, it would be more fixable.
He’s talking about increasing polarization, and increasing black-or-white thinking. That is what genuinely scares me much more than the WOT — the inability to look at problems and think about long, long term solutions.
That’s really, really tough for a Feel Good Society.
DaveM:
You make a very iportant point. Conseriavtive policies have manifestly failed, and people see it, even if the old line opinion crafters don’t.
That means people are waiting for an alternate perspective to take over: that’s the nature of this bubble we’re in.
op99, we have much more movement strength now than we did in 2004. We could do it, over time. DaveM’s point illustrates how people are ready. Will we answer the call, or wait in vain, once again, for someone else to lead when we ourselves must do so?
I thought in the aftermath of 9/11 that America should pursue the people who funded and planned the attacks as criminals-mass murderers.
Part of the problem is that we are using state war powers to go after common criminals, individuals if you will. I guess they call it asymetrical warfare. Well, we are playing right into these criminal’s hands by enhancing their asymetrical advantage.
Thoughts?
It’s not inconsistent of Soros not to put a great deal of thought into the marketing aspect of this message.
For one thing, he’s not a marketing guy, he’s a market guy.
For another, he’s said before that he thinks the right’s model of political conversation and operation is fatally flawed. It will eat itself alive with its viciousness. And it’s too far beneath the level of discourse we need to have. He doesn’t think the opposition, whether Dems, Greens or Naderites, should model their messages after the Cons.
I don’t pretend to have an answer. But I still want to be in the discussion.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, this is basically my stab at it what I would like to hear some brave Democrat say:
“The Republican lie about [pick an issue], it’s because they think you’re stupid. When they tell you that you have to give up your constitutional protections so they can protect you from terrorists, it’s because they think you’re cowards. When they tell you that gay marriage will destroy the institution of marriage, it’s because they think you’re bigots. *We* know that you’re Americans. Now go and show them.”
It needs a *lot* of tinkering by people more wordsmithy than me, but that’s my general idea.
(The “Americans” thing is key – we have to remind people of the nobility of what they believe America to be)
I always found that momentary ‘blip’ of sanity when even the Pentagon tried to re-define the GWOT as “the struggle against violent extremism” surfaced. It showed the thinkers were at work. Bush quickly slapped down that new phrase for his ideological partisan political advantage but it showed the folks actually waging the war were beginning to grasp some correct fundamentals.
pach –
There is no war on terror.
hmmm . . . that might be the best approach.
Hilarity ensues.
I don’t think so — more like dumbfounded silence, followed by spewing venom.
But you may be right — frontal assault on the basic premise might the only way to break down the resistance.
Eli @ 57 & 58 –
(sigh) If only one would.
I always found that momentary ‘blip’ of sanity when even the Pentagon tried to re-define the GWOT as “the struggle against violent extremism” surfaced.
And it would have had such a catchy acronym too.
So forgive my tone, but this is a sore topic for me. I have read many deep, intelligent, and perceptive essays on our current predicament, but Lee Atwater pointed out that elections are determined by the “20% who think wrestling is real” (from CG on DKos)and behind that crass assessment is a lot of truth. Out here in flyover America, even smart and well-educated people have been targeted by very clever advertising. You cannot break that emotional link by writing perceptive essays. What gets under my skin is that the right wing rich people have understood this very well and have created a working machine that meshes nicely with the concentrated corporate ownership of the media. The liberal rich people give to the philharmonics or to lobbying organizations – but don’t build partisan organization or media or marketing.
Soros’ efforts in East Europe seem to me to be mostly ineffective as well, because they do nothing to counter the appeals to raw nationalism, religion, and ethnic hatred that feed the right.
We live in a world dominated by very smart media. Ken Mehlman’s marketing operation for the last election involved research that allowed him to target, for example, gun based propaganda at people who subscribed to certain magazines and family based propaganda to people who subscribed to others. You can’t counteract that sort of thing by rational argument. That may be unpleasant to admit, but look at who is in power worldwide.
Eli –
Marketeers think of the acronym frist, the phrase second.
Pach @ 51, could I note a related topic… apologies in advance if this is too… ’sciencish’ or abstract.
A number of years back, an absolutely HORRENDOUS crime was committed in my city. Just horrific. Despicable. Tragic beyond expression. To good and decent people who did nothing more than open their door to a stranger.
The stranger was deranged. But in a bizarre way; he could speak, he could carry on a conversation (maybe CHS has seen the type)?
Later, he was asked why he murdered these people. He said, “They were evil. So I had to kill them.”
Now, I’ve never seen any sort of MRI on this person, but I have seen pictures of drawings that he made of himself. He was ALWAYS behind a wall; always, always behind a wall. And depending on who was on ‘the other side’ he would draw the wall bigger, with more barbed wire on the top.
Now… hang with me, please…
He had — in cognitive terms — almost no ability to see ‘grey’. Anyone who physically approached him was a threat. Anyone who asked his name was a threat. He literally had no sense of ambiguity.
And that’s one reason that Bush and the neocons alarm the hell out of me…. b/c, in addition to this guy’s madness, he was absolutely, totally convinced that he was right. The concept that he might be incorrect, or wrong, was totally foreigh to him.
And our media is kind of tailor-made for that type of thought process, BECAUSE we distill and simplify. so from a cognitive perspective, we’re not ‘teaching’ ambiguity.’ We’re not teaching that life is full of uncertainty.
And… as life is more insecure, all people lose tolerance for ambiguity and gravitate toward anything that offers ‘certainty’. And simplisitic politics are like gas on that fire.
Sorry, sorry for the long post, but I’m dumbfounded by this book and Soros’s insights… 8-0
The Right is not accusing us of treason because we’re not framing our ideas properly. They’re accusing us of treason because that’s what they do.
Alas, Eli, you’re correct about that. HOWEVER, “the Right” is losing credibility by the minute. What we’re watching so closely in CT is a microcosm and prediction of this November across the country. I do believe that most Americans are paying more attention than they did pre-2004, just because things are sliding downhill in such acceleration that it’s scaring them to attention. It’s also quite likely that the majority were in almost as much shock over Bush’s alleged re-election as the pollsters and we were (just quietly so).
Now, whether the DC Dems will be jarred loose of the status quo in time to get a grip on ‘08 is the question. I think they will, barely — but whether they do or not, the Right is spent, revealed in its crass stupidity, and a goner. They’re strangling on their own poison this very afternoon.
Somewhere in this country (in your room and mine, Eli, and in George Soros’s and yours and yours and yours, FDLers) are sitting the powerhouses that are re/energizing the US of A. We are coming to our own rescue, because nobody else will. ‘Tain’t treason, ’tis sanity. At last.
Eli @ 47 — Here are links to some of the critiques of the GWOT idea from early June. It can’t be a blogger lead effort, but there are encouraging signs from other media. Books like Danial Benjamin’s The Next Attack: The Failure of the War on Terror and a Strategy for Getting It Right are pushing the idea to an elite audience. The Foreign Policy Magazine/CAP terrorism index suggests that a consensus is forming there.
Intellectuals aren’t an ideal constituency to have on our side, but their influence is gradual and parvasive; their consensus should seep into the public conversation over time.
Pach at 53 said
we have much more movement strength now than we did in 2004. We could do it, over time. DaveM’s point illustrates how people are ready. Will we answer the call, or wait in vain, once again, for someone else to lead when we ourselves must do so?
I’m not saying it can’t be done, period, but that the dynamic of how people get their information and who controls the framing needs to change first. If I didn’t think it was possible, I wouldn’t be here; I would leave the country or shoot myself. However, I don’t delude myself that it will be quick or easy, and I don’t think you do either.
Marketeers think of the acronym frist, the phrase second.
The strange thing is, I remember seeing the phrase, but never the acronym. Did I just miss it?
And look at the state the world is in
I like George Soros, I wish we had a few more like him.
citizen k @ 62 unwittingly brings up a profoundly important point. Atwater was Bush I’s guy who helped send American politics down the sewer.
Atwater later died of brain cancer. But not just any brain cancer — brain cancer in the RIGHT FRONTAL LOBE. That’s where the guy who committed the horrendous crime also had a ‘lesion’ (ie., brain damage) and that’s the region of the brain that is often associated with aggression, impulsiveness, and (increasing hunches are suspecting) amoral behavior.
Very, very sobering if you think about it in those terms.. physiologically, socially, Atwater was literally playing out disease of the worst sort. And look at the social implications.
I’d sure like to see MRI’s of Cheney, Bush, Rove, Libby…. and Fitz. And no, I’m not a neuologist. Just know stuff about brain anatomy, which is a very, very hot topic these days.
Soros’ efforts in East Europe seem to me to be mostly ineffective as well, because they do nothing to counter the appeals to raw nationalism, religion, and ethnic hatred that feed the right.
Compared to what?
While George Soros may not have a magic wand, he did more to bring down Communism than Ronald Reagan.
Reagan spent how many trillions on military hardware? George Soros spent millions on photocopy machines, that allowed the people of Eastern Europe to organize, and bring down the rotten totalitarian edifice from within.
It’s been said that when Tito died, ethnic factionalism and civil war started up in the Balkans as if two weeks had passed since the end of WWII.
Everywhere that totalitarian regimes have held diverse nationalities together with an iron fist, sectarian and communal conflict erupts when the controlling force is removed. Which is what is happening in Iraq, and is why Democracy Boy’s excellent adventure was doomed to fail.
To condemn George Soros because the forces of history do not bend to his will is the height of arrogance. Would that any well intended citizen should be so powerful.
Mort Halperin’s oped in ,a href=”http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-halperin16jul16,0,999290.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail”>today’s LAT touches on some of the damage the GWOT is doing to domestic politics. Nixon used national security rhetoric to cover up his disdain for democracy and the constitution; Bush uses it to justify his.
‘Terror’, it seems to me has something to do with hegemony, religious intolerance, discrimination, security within one’s borders, freedom from unqualified attack and occupation, freedom from “manifest-destiny”, freedom from plunder, and a lack of the means and or will, to institute an equitable distribution of the goodies. And perhaps most of all, terror arises from todays seeming propensity to reject the concepts of compromise, fairness, justice and the failure to incorporate a system of ethics and a loss of the ability to empathize and have compassion. How do we move beyond beyond terror? We talk, we act, and we keep our promises to each other. Naive perhaps, but that’s what I think.
Steve Clark: Your point of view is quite common, but have a hard time understanding it. People are not purely or even mostly rational. The Ukranians who flock to hear from right wing Orthodox churches how the Jews are responsible for their poverty or the Mississippi suburbanites who think Massachussetts liberals want to destroy their families or the hunters in Pennsylvania who are the margin of victory for Senator LooneyTunes because they think they are defending their gun rights are not acting in their own rational self-interest. And, if we are honest, the rest of us don’t know how much of our instinctive reactions are based on irrational emotional reflexes we haven’t thought to analyze. Is there anything controversial in all that?
So my reasoning is that given the power of marketing and irrational emotional thinking, and the terrible effects when bad people exploit this, it is morally incumbent on good people to fight back. That doesn’t mean we have to tell people to kill anyone who looks different, but it does mean that we should not disdain the use of persuasive methods. If Soros had put the same money he put into his newspaper advert into a direct mail campaign to convince evangelicals that Bush was lying about his religious beliefs, it might have been enough to turn the election and, I hope, would have saved many lives.
I’m not a neurologist either, but I have memorized television, and that idea, that lesions cause violent anti-social behavior (is there any violent behavior that isn’t anti-social?) is an episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent.
EPU at 75 — memorizing television. Interesting hobby…
EPU at 75 — memorizing television. Interesting hobby…
Could be worse. I used to know pi out to 300 decimal places…
Eli –
S.A.V.E. — crummy acronym, btw; it’s no wonder Rove rejected it.
readerOfTeaLeaves –
Lee Atwater had two relatives that died of the same brain tumor, at the same age. But your point is very interesting — how much did the early stages of this disease influence his turn towards the ugliest side of politics?
The “War on Terror” having failed, Newt Gingrich has now helpfully declared that we’re really fighting World War III.
J.G. Ballard should find this most amusing.
Oops about the typo above in 73.
-ck- @ 72: Soros is still fighting the good fight in Russia. Ironically, he’s agreeing with Dick Cheney:
GWOT– it is a stoopid string of words. I can’t even deign to write it out properly, because it is patently ridiculous. How do you define terror?
A bomb or missile from a F-16? A landmine that destroys your child or your own leg and reproductive organs? A daisycutter? Willie Pete? Napalm? A suicide bomber? An IED? An ideology? Hey, try this on– we are the only country to eradicate people, dogs, cats, and more with nucular weapons!
Whatever happened to human imagination and the ability to face your enemy eye to eye and resolve your differences? Whatever happened to shame and the idea that if your actions are wrong, you apologize or in the most honorable and egregious situation, you commit seppuku to admit your dishonor. Whatever happened to caring for one another? Don’t we have enough stuff yet?
9/11 hurt. It hurt badly. I lost some not-so-close friends. Is that the justification we are going to use forever to justify our own bloodlust? I pray not. I cry every time I think of the Afghans, Iraqis, Israelis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Africans, Katrina survivors etc. living 9/11 everyday. We cannot smell the blood and the fire, but the fear and xenophobia is palpable. Reject that foul stench and let’s save our honor. The leaders of many countries must be stopped by the people; we here, in America, have the power to do just that.
George Soros is a hero of mine. He speaks and writes the truth and is brimming over with humility and humanity.
Eli – Only three hundred…SLACKER.
CHS – I have a special TIVO with a hypersonic fast forward feature, so the time commitment really isn’t that great.
So… Pach, I’d make the link from what is known and understood about cognition to the fact that our culture, and the current M$M, are sort of tailor-made for message that LACK AMBIGUITY.
Which is to be expected when people are very afraid. But which only make the problem worse.
I don’t care who owns the media… in cognitive terms, I care that they can get away with cutting away after 20 seconds. I care that they’ve made “time” so expensive that a thoughtful conversation can’t be aired.
Perhaps podcasting, which allows for more time, thought, and analysis will help. I’m starting to mix ‘em in with my music these days, and it is cognitively a very different experience from the smackdowns on tv.
Smackdowns on tv play straight into an inability to view things from more than one angle, which is a critical first step toward getting to any sort of Open Society.
People who are scared are never, ever going to be able to maintain an Open Society. That requires the ability to grapple with at least a moderate amount of ambiguity.
I’m not saying, ‘be squishy.’ I’m saying the WOT is tailor made for people who can’t tolerate ambiguity. So exposing it is going to require a lot of skill and compassion.
Not to use Mr. Rogers for political purposes, but I find it useful to think… “How would Fred Rogers approach this problem?”
To give a weird example, I used to hate sirens. Scared me to death. But one day, my kids were watching Mr Rogers and he very calmly talked about ambulances and fire engines and about how the sirens mean that “the helpers are coming”.
To make this very simplistic, the key communication objective is probably related to — in adult terms — saying, “okay, there are very bad people. But we’re all grown ups here, and we can deal wtih them. Here’s how we’re going to do it, but it won’t happen in just one month. And we will only ever ask our military to do things that fall specifically in the realm of what they are trained to do.”
Am I making any sense at all here…?
EPU, I didn’t want people to think I was strange.
citizen k, 3:11PM
That’s not what he’s good at, and he said as much in our conversation. That is, however, what I’m good at (sort of) and what the blogosphere is good at.
I hope we can all move on to kick around more ideas about the questions I put at the end of the discussion, rather than dispute together over the capacities and successes of Mr. Soros personally.
Soros is a man of principle. A real gem. We Democrats need to be acutely aware of this treasure.
Conservative policy has failed and as a result, the US has begun to be marginalized and considered by some to be irrelevant as the world and its populations evolve and emerge. ( I mentioned last night that some day I thought it would be good to talk about the assumption that the US will be the superpower ad infinitum. I think this is at the heart of our government’s over-reactions to many world events and our inability to connect to the source of terror that many in this world feel, either as the terrorist or as the one being terrorized. But I digress…) The thing that makes me feel freaked out is that this failure to understand and combat terror in any sort of effective way is causing people like Newt Gingrich to escalate the language and say that we’re not dropping enough bombs or acting tough enough. This is a long painful road to total destruction.
FWIW, Citizen K — Soros put millions into a progressive registration and GOTV operation in 2004 ! You are so fixated on one teeny part of his wide-ranging political activities …
GWOT– it is a stoopid string of words. I can’t even deign to write it out properly, because it is patently ridiculous. How do you define terror?
A bomb or missile from a F-16? A landmine that destroys your child or your own leg and reproductive organs? A daisycutter? Willie Pete? Napalm? A suicide bomber? An IED? An ideology? Hey, try this on– we are the only country to eradicate people, dogs, cats, and more with nucular weapons!
I think it is generally understood that “War On Terror” is shorthand for “War On Scary Muslims Who Hate Us For Our Freedoms”. Or WOSMWHUFOF for short.
rotl: I think the case has to be made mroe aggressivley and provocatively. If you want to see an example, please clikc through on the embedded link to my earlier post from Memorial Day.
Personally, I see no reason why we need to look to Mr Soros for “operational” guidance. Every movement needs theorists, and I contend that Mr Soros is one of these. I think his ideas are valuable, but I do not think his book can necessarily be used as a map for future action.
In this case, I would assert that the theory can be distilled down to: “The center of gravity in this society is currently slipping back to a value system that is more appropriate for 5-year-olds. There needs to be more reasoning, more empathy, and a firm rejection of imperial or authoritarian tendencies, before the society can begin to move forward in its development.”
Yeah? Anyone else hear what I’m trying to say?
Every movement also needs agents, people who put theory into practice.
My question is, what does the practice look like? How do you get a 5-year-old past the temper tantrum? How do you get a 13-year-old to develop an individual identity?
How do we get this society back on the road to adulthood — in other words, move the center of gravity toward reason and community awareness?
“War on Terror” is shorthand for “Be Very Very Afraid All the Time — Don’t Ask Questions and Do Exactly What I Say.”
Eli @ 90: But Now They Hate Us With Our Freedom!
Pach –
An optimistic thought — we happy, happy few rabid lambs of blogtopia are doing the same work that the Poles who became Soldiarity did with the Soros photocopy machines.
Bring down the Tyrants, one brick at a time!
Pach — don’t you think that some of the messaging has to be done in terms that appeal to even the basest of self-interest? The “GWOT” hits people in a very base level of self-interest: the safety of their family and a gut level of fear. What we need to combat that is to come up with a way to explain that by following the Bush policies, not only are we making the world less safe for all of us (pick up a newspaper and see for yourself!), but also that different policies could produce different — and better — results. But to get them, we need different people in power, because Bush is unable or unwilling to make changes.
We have to fight that fearmongering by lifting that veil to show how truly wrong what they have been doing is — and how we can take steps to do not only better for the short-term, but better for the long-term. But how to get that across in a sound bite or three is the very, very difficult part…
David at 92 — exactly so.
Yes, I think it’s obvious at this point in time that the “war on terror” is vague and broadly applied on purpose. Power is what we are after, and having a war on terror that has no beginning and no end, without definition and boundaries, is ironically itself a source of terror.
The Bush apologists on CNBC’s morning stock market shows hate Soros and ridicule him as a nut-job. Of course, none of them have made a dime in the markets.
More on topic: I have not read Soros’s book (yet). Soros seems to accept the premise (which I do not) that 9/11 was a real attack, as distinct from a Reichstag-style inside caper. If there is an external threat, what would Soros have us do about it? Surely not wring our hands and worry about how we can make amends so they won’t hate us anymore. Does he take the view that this is a criminal apprehension and prosecution matter, requiring international cooperation — in contrast to unilateral military invasion of “state sponsors”? Or is he saying something different altogether?
meta 98, it’s *called* the “War On Terror”, but it’s actually the war on not-enough-terror.
Pach, ageed. As long as the aggressiveness does not mirror Bu$hCo in any way; if it were to do that, it would fail.
But yes, I totally and absolutely agree w/ you that it is critical to EXPOSE the WOT **as a fraud and a dangerous fraud** than to try and redefine it on progressive terms (which is basically defense).
klangfarben at 93: brilliant. Very well stated, IMHO.
Christy:
I don’t believe you can be successful in such a campaign for an alternative view without targeting an enemy to be feared and presenting an alternate, hopeful vision for the future. On this marketers and psychologists agree. I find wishes for a fear-free message to be, well, naive, frankly.
The entity to be feared is the power of the over-arching state, the opposite of an open society. That’s why my Memorial Day post was constructed as it was. It also happens to be a true argument, one taken up today, to my surprise, by the NYT editorial page. If you had told me when I wrote that post in May that the NYT would echo me 45 days later, I would have said you were crazy.
We can describe a vision for an open society as a hopeful and desirable one, but we must also replace in people’s minds the villian to be feared. We can do it. But will we? Have we the stomach for it? Can we tell that much truth?
Christy at 95 said
What we need to combat that is to come up with a way to explain that by following the Bush policies, not only are we making the world less safe for all of us (pick up a newspaper and see for yourself!), but also that different policies could produce different — and better — results. But to get them, we need different people in power, because Bush is unable or unwilling to make changes.
Please substitute “conservative” of “Republican” for “Bush”; otherwise, we are left with the Gingrichian proposition that it’s not the policies themselves that are wrong, but Bush’s bungled execution thereof.
To pick up an earler point, while I realize that in this modern moment we must find the right message and methods of communication to effectively reach our citizens, what we are really missing is a genuine, articulate, sincere, humane person to stand up with a vision of real leadership and imagination. I think people in this country are absolutely desperate for inspiration. Most people don’t know that, but that’s I what I see when I look at the condition of our culture and our economy and our politics and our social disengagement.
CHS at 3:23 pm —
don’t you think that some of the messaging has to be done in terms that appeal to even the basest of self-interest? The “GWOT” hits people in a very base level of self-interest: the safety of their family and a gut level of fear. What we need to combat that is to come up with a way to explain that by following the Bush policies, not only are we making the world less safe for all of us (pick up a newspaper and see for yourself!), but also that different policies could produce different — and better — results. But to get them, we need different people in power, because Bush is unable or unwilling to make changes.
Absolutely — but we have to make the case very succinctly.
We need some serious Democratic anger mongering and fear mongering — Bush has made us less safe, by creating more terrorists instead of taking out the ones that attacked us.
Bush and the GOP have betrayed this country, for the benefit of their corporate sponsors and their own lust for power. Every American will pay for this betrayal for generations to come, and the only way to fix the damage is to throw the Republican bums out!!!
Why call it a WAR? Because during wartime the exective branch’s power is enhanced. You can call dissenters traitors. You can accuse political opponents of being weak on defense.
After the bombing in Oklahoma City, the gov’t didn’t dedclare war on terror. What was required was serious police action and infiltrating right-wing militia type organizations.
If we had followed a similar tact, this non-war would really be GLOBAL with the vast majority of the nations cooperating in the police action. And, after four years, we may have been well on our way to alleviating terror. There never will be victory over terror. Same with poverty, racism, ignorance, evil, sin, acne. You name it.
And, unfortunately, we now are at war. Fighting Shia, Sunni, Al Qaeda, angry young Arabs. We have stirred up a hornet’s nest and we are less safe. And we have lost the support of the nations.
What was it FDR said? Something about “nothing to fear but fear itself?”
Fear is all that Bush is selling. It might have been great for him getting elected, but it’s no way to run a country.
So if all he’s selling is fear, via GWOT, Pach’s right: we need to sell something else.
And we sell it, like Mr. Rogers (thanks rotl and klangfarben), with repetition and vivid imagery, along with openness and accountability.
CHS @ 97, I’ve thought about this some. It strikes me that George Bush was a cheerleader at football games. Cheney probably played football, Rummy wrestled. Those are all sports that value ‘head on’ contact.
We’re going to get our butts kicked by people who played very different types of sports as kids.
I think that we need what I’m musing about as “Akido Politics.” Too much agression in US politics; to little elegant thought goes into really studying and assessing one’s opponent and sort of letting them expend and waste their energies doing the head-butt, stupid stuff.
We need an Akido Expose of WOT.
The US, football, testerone-driven stupid stuff ain’t working. Sorry for those of you who luv football (part of my own American tradition, so I share the pain ;0(
Pach’s 103 segues nicely with Jonathan Singer’s “Party of the Future” post over at MyDD.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 3:23 pm (#97) – This is a difficult question for me. To me, it’s manifestly obvious that Al Qaeda is less dangerous than many hazards we face every day. It’s killed far fewer people over the last decade than cigarette smoking, alcholism, insufficient access to medical care, crime, and automobile accidents, just to name a few things. Speaking of crime, I suspect that police activity may have killed as many Americans as terrorism. In all likelihood, it would kill far fewer of us than a killer asteroid, a pandemic, or a nuclear war. Yet this is what people are terrified of, apparently. It’s completely irrational.
a few weeks ago, i read a post that acknowledged the true nature of the mislabeled ‘wot’. it’s a worldwide protection racket. pay the man or something bad will happen to you or your family or your neighbor.
happily, my children and grandchildren also recognize this reality.
our shared ‘truth’ is our safe passage over the sea of lies perpetrated by the cheney-bush crime family and their warmongering enablers.
teach the children.
and just …. grow!
Cujo @ 111, I’d point out that if Al Quaeda is able to control heroin shipments, and Afghanistan devolves into a narco state, then we have a great deal to fear. Add on to that nukes floating around, and young people in countries that have very poor economic prospects, and it’s my personal view that fanatacism is very, very dangerous.
Then, toss in water shortages (related to Global Warming)… and the need for genuine leadership is critical.
Dubya is a cheerleader; he is NOT a leader.
And Soros is absolutely right about the WOT being a very dangerous metaphor that needs to be unmasked.
(Where is Tommy Lee Jones when ya need him? Because it sure would be sweet to do some kind of Men In Black takeoff where the beast has its seeming-face removed, to show the underlying mechanics of the damn thing.)
I’m all for ripping out the (metaphorical) guts of conservatives and their movement, and of failed conservative policies, and of the conservative nanny state, in favor of an open society.
I’m in favor of taking those guts, politically speaking, and stomping on them, then setting them on fire, by aggressively discrediting their lies and making them pay in both the court of public opinion and at the polls. If they pay in the courts, that’s okay too, but it’s a bonus.
Some people are born to be afraid, and they need to know whom they should fear. We can tell them, and it’s not Iran. The WoT is a lie, but the threat of the unaccountable state, at home and abroad, is not. FDR rhetoric is fine for the speechmakers, but the speechmakers need us culture changers to do the close-in fighting first.
Subtle, shmuttle.
I am of the opinion that the words we assign have an arbitrary component to them. When people say “War on Terror” for the most part they do not mean a war on a technique of resistance. (We shouldn’t think the wingnuts are stupider than they actually are.) What people usually mean by the War on Terror is the war on the Islamic terrorists who have pledged to destroy the West and restore the Islamic Caliphate.
I am currently studying “The Management of Savagery,” an Al Qaeda strategic document available on the web. In it, Abu Bakr Naji does indeed declare war upon the West and give a theoretical basis for the kind of terrorism we saw on Sept. 11. (It is translated by a West Point professor, and badly translated so use a grain of salt) but still substantially representes Bakr Naji’s position.
Abu Bakr Naji and George Bush share the same “Clash of Civilization” world view.
The dirty little secret is that opposition to violent Islamic extremists is a police action and not a military action. It was done with the Weather Underground, the Red Brigade and the Bader-Meinhof Gang in the sixties. Islamic extremists constitute a graver threat than the sixties revolutionaries, but are qualitiatelively the same.
I think Citizen K has an extremely valid point. Most people don’t involve themselves with politics, but still get their political views subliminally from news, magazines, and tv. The idea is not to emulate the republicans, but to win the vote of people “who think pro wrestling is real”. Now think about it. Woody Guthry was able to help unite the extremely democratic movement of labor unions in part because of his SONGS.
“Pittsburgh town is a smoky old town, Pittsburg!
Pittsburgh town is a smoky old town, Pittsburg!
The workers there all cough and choke!
From the iron filings and the sulfer smoke!
In Pittsburg!
If we are unable to appeal to the masses like the republicans have, which does not mean we have to unite with a message of aggression, the truth will remain a voiceless minority. We need to use the mediums of media not for destructive propaganda, but we still need to use a heavy counter-media marketing strategy superior to the republicans with liberal ideas! Can you concieve of a “good” propaganda, such as spreading “tolerance” propaganda or “civil liberties” propaganda or “honesty in government” propaganda? I mean promoting GOOD values instead of destructive ones. Propaganda is not evil. It is a tool! It can be used for both good and evil ends. But it must be used, because we are being buried in it by the republicans.
So… okay… does that Tommy Lee Jones, Will Smith, Men In Black iconongraphy have any traction…?
(I’m thinking the scene in the morgue where the face comes off the weird creature, and exposes another, weirder creature below…)
shmuttle? or just subtle…?
I would also add people should be exceedingly afraid of the mass polluters because the climate crisis may kill us all.
That’s whom they should fear as well.
Global warming hates us for our freedoms.
Cujo359 at 110
Your post just triggered a thought (*ouch!*) – sort of a vision of a commercial or a pr campaign. The first bit was “Fear makes you stupid” – like clips from cheesy horror movies where the victim runs into a room with no exits, or down into the basement and with some evocation of cornered animals fighting by instinct alone, not thinking things through. The second bit was “Don’t be afraid, be _____” – be involved, be knowledgable, be prepared – with clips of people at school meetings, city council meetings, voting, researching, organizing with neighbors, reaching out to other communities, asking questions at political town hall meetings, reaching out to other countries even.
Fundamentally, the very notion that Soros speaks of — thinking about whether your perceptions are accurate, and if they aren’t, then readjusting them — could certainly be incorporated into an expose of the WOT. And the way the neocons have played it.
Because Soros is saying, “humans need to adapt to the world around them.”
And the neocons have not done that. And it’s too late now. I think that line of thought is exhibited throughout this thread.
So it’s time for the WOT to be exposed. Definitely. But not in a way that makes people feel they were stupid; in a way that at least acknowledges they feel strongly enough about the dangers in the world to do a better job of addressing them.
But Peterr is right, IMHO, imagery is key. Certainly, given the media we’re stuck with, it’s critical.
sherocket at 120 — I love that. Great visual narrative, great potential for a long-term messaging campaign. :)
Sage @ 116: I’m not sure that’s something Soros would agree with, and it’s something I’m uncomfortable with (not the music, but the conclusion). Is propaganda compatible with an open society? Is there a place for it in a system of political liberalism?
Pach –
Some people are born to be afraid, and they need to know whom they should fear. We can tell them, and it’s not Iran. The WoT is a lie, but the threat of the unaccountable state, at home and abroad, is not. FDR rhetoric is fine for the speechmakers, but the speechmakers need us culture changers to do the close-in fighting first.
We need simple narratives, that kick people in the gut –
“Bush and Republicans are fighting Terror and solving Global Warming the same way they rebuilt New Orleans.”
A direct analogy, that everyone understands . . .
Peterr @ 108…
I am totally onboard with the “Mr Rogers” thing. I think that’s exactly what we need to be doing, for a certain segment of the America population — taking the role of firm but fair grownup. You don’t get good results with the 5-year-old’s temper tantrum if you 1.) pretend you are reasoning with an adult, or 2.) throw a tantrum of your own. You have to let the emotional tide roll over you, and stick to “firm, fair, and nuturing.”
But that’s just one developmental stage in our mixed-up society. There are other folks who will require different interactive modalities, yes?
It ain’t just the emotional me-firsters, OK? There are the authoritarian-lemmings, who are terrified of not-me, profoundly unreachable, and thus quite dangerous.
There are the corporadoes, the entrepreneurs gone wild, who are amoral in their pursuit of winning the Big Game.
And there are the superpluralists, the greener-than-thou folks. They have the right idea, but they still got some growin’ to do.
I suggest that the collective value systems of all of these subgroups resemble the personal systems found at various stages of individual maturation. And just like individuals, these subgroups will require different handling, depending on where they are on their growth path. (See: Piaget, R Kagan, C Graves, etc.)
How do we reach all these groups at the same time? One message or method won’t do it, in my book.
The difference between mass communications and propaganda is to me the difference between lying and telling the truth, the difference between conning people into abdicating their freedom versus challenging them to protect and exercise it.
hit post before completing thought (*double ouch*) – I have been wanting to see the democratic in-charge people get more aggressively patriotic – “It’s your America” or some such. But I like the “Don’t be afraid, be ____” idea because it jumps in front of the WOT image right to the target the WOT is implying, to be afraid, to be stupid, to not think.
sherocket @ 3:48 pm (#120) – I think trying to channel that fear or speak to it is a good idea. It’s not something most politicians like to do, and the mainstream news has never been good at it.
How do we reach all these groups at the same time? One message or method won’t do it, in my book.
Exactly. Progressives need to get beyond talking to the kind of audience that listens to NPR, or thinking that everyone out there can become like an NPR listener if we just approach them right. They won’t. We have to grow up. We don’t have time not to.
ck @ 124 — okay, building on the “Screammmmm! And Run From the WOT Monster That’s Out To Gobble Up Your Civil Rights”, that’s a great punch line for the end of the (ad/radio tag/ blog interactive).
When are you making up the bumper stickers, ’cause I want one. And if it has an image of a rabid lamb on it, so much the better ;-)
cujo at 111;
You say: “To me, it’s manifestly obvious that Al Qaeda is less dangerous than many hazards we face every day”.
That may be true but it happened on tv and in a very dramatic fashion. It was a symbolic act and it worked. It’s hard for those of us who were two miles away from it to forget it.
I get your point but you can’t win many people over with that one…
Most of the people in this country don’t know their asses from their elbows. They don’t vote based on refined notions of the common good or what is in the best interests of future generations. They don’t vote for policies that promote fairness and equality. They vote out of blind pig fear and hate, which are easy to whip up. This is what the Repugs have learned to do so effectively.
If progressives want to energize and get the masses on their side, they need to reach back and remember when they did it successfully in the past. That was during the 1920s and 30s. Progressives whipped up a fear and hatred of owners and exploiters of capital, channeling it through the labor movement. Progressives need to relearn how to reach out to workers everywhere and the white trash of places Kansas and the Southern states. The message: instead of spending $5 billion a month on Iraq we could use that to generate jobs, healthcare, education, fight corporate fraud, and actually protect our ports and chemical plants. Okay, with certain audiences you have to provide an overlay of Jesus and biblical references. That’s easy. Jesus was all for healthcare. And he didn’t like fraudsters, hypocrites and exploiters of the poor.
re rotl at 120 -
the don’t be afraid message could also be adapted to the “don’t tell people they are stupid” approach – I am imagining a comforting voice, possible Donald Sutherland or David Duchovny (they both do a lot of TV ads) saying, “It’s a scary world, it can make you feel that the only way to survive is either to hide yourself away or to attack anything you see, but it does not have to be that way” – then shift to the challenge that fear can lead to bad decision-making, and that the best way to take on what we fear is to engage with it on different terms, and you can do it!
klangfarben @ 125
Maybe if we shift from Mr. Rogers to Dr. Seuss it will help.
Dr. Seuss wrote Yertle the Turtle during the height of the cold war. It’s a great treatise against facism, written for young kids and their parents. Hannah Arndt may have written longer books on the same subject, but I don’t know that they were any better.
The best kid’s literature speaks not only to kids but to the parents that have to read the story over and over and over again. If it’s well written, us adults have no problems doing that. If it’s drivel, OTOH, we try to subtly or not so subtly shift from drivel to something better.
We could learn a lot from Dr. Seuss about reaching folks with different stages of “political maturation” as you put it.
(Christy, I sent you an email on this . . .)
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 3:41 pm (#113) – I’d point out that the worst-case scenario of a narco-state in Afghanistan isn’t a smidgen of the worry that a killer asteroid or a pandemic is. They’d have to hit us simultaneously with at a dozen nukes in major cities to cause equivalent damage. Even given the incompetence of our current government, that seems an exceedlingly unlikely thing.
As for the global warming thing, you’re just piling onto my point. There are far worse things to worry about than terrorism.
Er. lest anyone think I’m falling down the Straussian rabbit-hole of setting myself up as an elite, more-evolved person, who can dictate to others what they should be doing, I’d just like to say that I firmly believe that all stages of development — personal or societal — are part of the current stage, and must be recognized and appreciated.
The 5-year-old must be appreciated and known as he or she is. The evolving society must embrace all its components, good or bad.
ck at 124;
BINGO! that’s what I’ve been trying to articulate. The way we wein people over is by pointing how incompetent the 1% doctrine is.
Good one!
Pachacutec #87 – I am trying to address your points. My reaction is that I have no idea, but this is an area where people have professional expertise, gather data, make educated decisions. Nobody would market a movie or business or anything serious without involving a good group of advertisers, marketing researchers, and others who know something – well people do try without such an effort but generally with poor results. Getting rid of Bush is much more important than any of those activities. Should we co-opt the GWOT or attack it as bull? What is the proper fear motivator ? I just don’t think this can be answered on gut feeling. Surely any campaign should have a plan that includes follow-on campaigns, benchmarks, milestones? Many of us take these kinds of things seriously in our day jobs. Isn’t it time to take them seriously in politics as well? We all know that the DC dems have no idea how to sell their agenda, but doing better requires some seriousness.
If we tell people “don’t be afraid,” when climate change is happening, are we telling them the truth?
If we tell people, “don’t be afraid,” when our government may be thisclose to embracing through precedent the unitary executive, are we telling them the truth?
If we tell people “don’t be afraid,” when there’s no accountability for the robbery of the public treasury by corrupt corporations like Haliburten, are we telling them the truth?
Health care. . . jobs. . . loose nukes. . . the list goes on.
Why tell people not to be afraid? In one sense, I’m very afraid. I’m also rather rational.
Before people will listen to an alternate vision for an aspirational future, they must first be afraid. People will not change until they see the risks of not changing are greater than the risk of pursuing change.
We should not be too squeamish to play this truth telling game to win.
Peterr @ 134…
Brilliant. Yes, Dr Seuss. Of course.
I learned everything I know about race relations in 60s from The Sneetches. (laughs) Speaking metaphorically, of course.
kalina77 @ 3:59 pm (#131) – I grew up in eastern Pennsylvania and still have relatives there, including one who was nearer the action at the WTC than you were, and another who is a paramedic, but who thankfully was not working as one at the time. I now live less than five miles from one of the busiest container ports in the country. This isn’t theoretical for me, either. My point was that this overwhelming fear of terrorism is completely irrational. Clearly, anyone who’s smart enough to understand the real hazards has moved onto more pressing issues.
By saying “don’t be afraid”, I would never want to say these things are terrifying – just to motivate people to action. Have you read “the Gift of Fear” by Gavin de Becker? He points out that when you are feeling fear, nothing is happening directly, and what fear is doing is telling you to be alert, be ready, because when it is time to act, you do it, rather than stay afraid. That is a gross oversimplification, but my thinking about the “don’t be afraid” idea might be more of a “don’t JUST be afraid – see what is frightening and THINK, and DO.
Citizen K wonders (#138): “Should we co-opt the GWOT or attack it as bull? What is the proper fear motivator?”
Shouldn’t we first try to figure out the truth? If the GWOT is bull, then shouldn’t we call bullshit? One of the reasons many of us are disappointed with people like Hillary Clinton, is that she appears to be constantly asking herself such marketing-type questions.
are NOT terrifying. *head smack*
reader of tea #72: I’m best when unwitting, but I don’t see why that’s the interesting issue. How Atwater came to be such a swine is less interesting to me than how to beat his extremely effective marketing tactics. I find it peculiar that so many film people can study Birth of a Nation and that repulsive Nuremburg rally movie but learning political marketing from Atwater and Mehlman is considered disreputable.
Maybe that instinctive distaste is something we’ve been sold?
sherocket:
I hear you, and I conceptually agree.
I just think our history as progressives, and our personality types, make us more likely to overlook the power of the lizard brain as we pursue our high-minded conversations.
In this sense, I am agreeing with citizen k’s point from much earlier.
But it’s that attention grabbing, alert system we never really activate while we are busy being high-minded.
cujo at 141;
We’re saying the same thing. I share your feelings. I’d go even further. I’d say that those of us who were there on that day and had to run and get their children from school, and house the friends who couldn’t get home… those of us – have moved on.
Since I live in both NYC and PA, I find it that it’s my neighbors in PA who weren’t there that day… they’re the ones scared.
I think that terrorism is an issue and Dems need to find a way to articulate how they plan on battling it. Otherwise, we’ll always be painted as ‘weak’.
Curious Jim #143 – we know that GWOT is bull. It’s a marketing gimmick for God knows what mixture of internal politics, Haliburton welfare, geopolitical oil grabbing, and oafish chest thumping, but the question we were asked was how to defuse it as a powerful and effective lever for the right.
GWOT is independent of any actual danger from Al Queda. That much is clear.
By the way – here’s a link to the DKos discussion. The author is actually good at marketing the idea of marketing, unlike me.
I’m thinking that a minimization of the reality of terror (cigarettes kill more people than…) — well, if this is the message and we somehow manage to tamp down the fear but we are hit again (frankly I’m surprised we haven’t yet) we’ll be looking at a citizenry who will turn our rights as U.S. citizens over to the government in a heartbeat.
As others here have already said, we need to grow up and address the real definition of terrorism and deal with it intelligently and not pooh pooh it to a massively fearful population; and two, we cry out as a country for a righteous and most importantly, moral, leader who will face the American people, give them the straight scoop, and then act. Clearly the populace needs a rudder.
We know that terrorists exist in more numbers today than in the run-up to 911 (it took Bin Laden, what, 5 years to plan the World Trade Center attack). We need to get smart, in a hurry.
Pach, Totally agree that we should not be squeamish about telling the truth.
And much of the power of Karl Popper’s philosophy (wonderfully refined by Soros) is about identifying and telling the truth.
I agree with citizen k @ 138 that the Dems have not done this skillfully; however, that’s partly because the wingnut noise machine has assisted the Rs. However, some of those researchers have some insights and citizen k makes a good point — how come the D’s aren’t using those researchers and being damn businesslike about how to unpeel the layers of WOT, corporate theft, etc.
Cujo, I did not make clear enough that Global Warming = shrinking resouces = greater social stress (due to increased scarcity). As things devolve, it gives an upper hand to simplistic fear mongers and simplistic solutions. (I hope Soros would agree with this linkage, but certainly am not quoting him!)
Peterr…. Yertle! But your point about ACCOUNTABILITY and OPENNESS are so hugely important. At all levels of government — b/c I for one feel that I’ve been robbed blind, and no exposure of WOT can have ‘legs’ without a very good accounting to back it up.
Basically, the R’s had the storyline from about 1980 up through … Katrina. But I do believe that the new narrative has to expose WOT as a fraud, then move forward.
Pach, my personal experiences (and work experiences) have prompted me to the belief that most people make their most important changes when they finally have some HOPE. If they can see that it is possible for them to make change, and be successful, then you see more movement. It’s when they’re paralyzed by previous history of failures, or unsure about how to proceed, that change doesn’t happen.
And they need to have some very specific payoffs early in the process of change. Look at how Weight Watchers, or any good instructor, or any well-run organization implement reward systems. It’s the wise and decent thing to recognize people for good stuff. IMHO. But backed up by scads of research.
People have have fear up the ying-yang;; they need hope and specific, simple tools. And klangfarben is so on-target; it’s about multiple audiences, and you have to meet them where they are, in order to move them forward on the learning curve.
(Man, I totally LOVE this book!! I’ve been on this thread like… all day… 8-0
Pach – I hear you – and I have always run up against this problem. I think of campaigns that I would find persuasive, and which are not applicable across the board.
Is there any way to reverse-engineer the opposing argument? Over-visual brain striking again (possibly explained by my own personal right temporal lesion -not frontal, thank goodness) – the way eminem shuts down his opponent in 8mile by stealing the jokes to be made at his expense before the other guy even goes? One complaint I keep yelling at the democratic leadership from the safety of my laptop is that they are too reactive.
While I took the 15 minutes to compose my comment, pach at 139 said it…
readerOfTeaLeaves said:
“Because Soros is saying, “humans need to adapt to the world around them.”
I’ve read a lot of Soros and watched him speak a few times, trying to track his rational views on the GWOD (global war on drugs), as opposed to his rational views on the GWOT.
His statement, quoted above, is a pearl of wisdom. A book very much about that subject, which I’m just getting reeady to dive into, is Michael Pollan’s _The Omnivore’s Dilemma_. One of the stark portraits Pollan paints is a brilliant overview of the corn industry, and the cost we’re paying by trying to adapt the world to us, rather than doing what usually makes sense.
I realize most of the books covered in the book salon have been recently published quality books which directly address the challenge before us from a political perspective, but I highly recommend Pollan’s book for consideration here in the near future.
“An American president, wandering the halls of Eastern European palaces, denounces his own nation in order to appease his hosts into torturing secret prisoners. Our heroic age surely has come to an end.”
http://harpers.org/StabbedInTheBack.html
citizen k –
The negative feedback is not directed at your ideas; it’s the in-your-face attitude. We’ve been hashing out the same ideas for at least the past six months here at FDL; personally, I’ve been making the same points for the past six years.
Yes, the DC Dems ineptitude is the problem; FDL and blogtopia are inventing the cure . . .
drive by: Terry Gross / Fresh Air interview with Soros on July 13.
rotl: I agree, we need a hope narrative, and I hope my emphasis in today’s discussion has not occluded that part of my belief.
On balance, I tend to write a lot of hope oriented, motivational fare, especially in my Roots Project work, and I believe firmly in its importance.
Perhaps I’m emphasizing another (in my view) necessary piece of the alternate political case because of ehat’s happening in the world this week, and the new noises and rumbling in support of widening the Middle East war into Iran.
The stakes feel higher and more urgent for me at the moment, and I’m of the opinion the saber rattling over Iran is all about the midterm elections and a Hail Mary pass by the ight, as Gingrich suggested this morning on the morning shows.
I’m also painfully conscious of the cost of another day of inaction on the climate crisis.
Unfortunately, the only possible way to “embolden” the nominal Democrats to support progressive policies is to:
1.) Define a set of core progressive policies;
2.) Withdraw all support from the nominal Democrats who do not support them; and
3.) Actively oppose the nominal Democrats by loudly boycotting, and encouraging everyone else to boycott the races in which they run.
The only alternative is the one which Soros and people like Kos and Atrios are trying, which is to buy them. It’s true that they are for sale, but the problem is that they don’t stay bought.
Either way, the unfortunate truth is that we are dependent on the emergence of a charismatic leader, someone like Barak Obama, and we can only hope that when that leader emerges, he or she is not just another power hungry poser on the make or some kind of religious fruitcake.
But it’s probably going to take a profound economic crisis to turn things around and it’s possible that we have already given up so much of our democracy that genuine change for the better is impossible. in the near term.
It’s much more likely that we will experience a profound security crisis of some sort, real or imagined, and go on one murderous rampage after another, like the Israeli government, which is to say totally fucking insane.
punaise: yellow card. Salon is for staying on topic!
Pachacutec @ 4:12 pm (#146) – I just think our history as progressives, and our personality types, make us more likely to overlook the power of the lizard brain as we pursue our high-minded conversations.
Actually, I think this has as much to do with how groups of lizard-brains think as it does with our own predispositions.
No one’s ever going to mistake me for the next William James, but there are certain things I’ve noticed about such people. The first is that they usually don’t bother thinking for themselves. I sometimes think it’s the same reason I leave professional baseball to others – if you’re absolutely no good at it, why bother? We can talk about human mental potential another time, but I think that’s a good summation of the reasons. What lizards tend to do, therefore, is find one among themselves who can do that thinkin’ stuff. An example would be the guys who end up heading those KKK cells. They’re the target of thoughtful persuasion, although often their own self-interest is going to keep them from being persuaded.
Of course, the other possible means of persuasion is to become that thinkin’ lizard, but personally I never felt the need to add that role to resume. Therefore, I have no idea how one might accomplish that.
Pach at 4:06 pm –
We need to redirect the fear into anger — aimed at the Bush Republicans for screwing us over and making us less safe.
At the MyDD thread on Making Democrats the Party of the Future, I posted some comments on developing a credible narrative arc.
http://mydd.com/comments/2006/7/16/164747/263/7#7
Another theme that plays into “Had Enough?” is “Are You Better Off Today?” It’s an oldy by goody, and plays into both the pocketbook and national security issues that BushCo has screwed up.
chuckling said:
“The only alternative is the one which Soros and people like Kos and Atrios are trying, which is to buy them. It’s true that they are for sale, but the problem is that they don’t stay bought.”
You got me chuckling, chuckling. Back in the 70s and early 80s an Anchorage developer named Pete Zamarillo was briefly the richest man in Alaska. I got to know him fairly well, and one night at dinner, he told me “Phil – politicians, they’re ALL the same. You bribe them and you bribe them and they STILL do whatever they want.”
He was exaggerating, because he often got what he paid for, even if he tended to be ingracious.
Pach – yellow card for providing a link to an interview where the author of the book you’re discussing discusses the very same book? I’m confused. It was for post-discussion backfilling, if interested. Je m’excuse!
punaise –
World Cup officiating standards . . .
*sigh*…. head-butt against wall…
Punaise: Pachacutec sounds kinda Eyetalian, dontcha think?
The GWOT is bull. If there really were an Al-Qaeda like the marketing entity, Tel Aviv would be a sea of glass. It doesn’t take much to make rich countries afraid, and selling GWOT has been analagous to marketing spray cans of DDT to yuppies on fears of their kids getting West Nile virus. The threat levels are in the same ballpark. If you seek to replace one fear with another, how about the fear of getting nuked by a pissed-off world that unites against our brutal stupidities? How about bankruptcy, and a worthless dollar? Or how about a civil war at home, that do anything for you marketers? No, no, I’ve got it now, here’s the image: your SUV and an empty gas tank. That’s where GWOT policies are taking us, and fast.
Our country has been so afraid of terrorists that we’ve bombed wedding parties in third-world places. As a metaphor, bombing wedding parties perfectly expresses the kind of blundering, spoiled, and lethal paranoia which has become America’s international “brand.” In pursuing war motivated by a propaganda technique, we left behind the core principles our country was so carefully and progressively founded on, those which hold individual rights as innate and universal. GWOT has made our country into a lie.
GWOT has wrecked our institutions, our currencies, and has unhallowed our Constitution and its articles. FOR NOTHING. Terrorists are criminals, and criminals are a police problem, not a military responsibility. What if this nation’s leaders had instead chosen to honor our loved ones with our grief, and then and had greeted the assistance offered by international police forces in pursuing the criminals responsible for 9/11? What if we had instead focused on the energy crisis? Imagine how different the world could be now.
Citizen K (148): As a marketing plan, how about telling people the truth: that whatever the GWOT is, in this case the best defense is a good defense. Bankrupting the Treasury by “fighting them over there” was an error, especially since we could have used that money to protect our ports, round up loose nukes, and round up Bush’s family friend Osama.
citizen k @ ?? 15?? witting or otherwise ;-)
Agreed that How Atwater came to be such a swine is less interesting to me than how to beat his extremely effective marketing tactics. But it’s my view that his marketing would not have been nearly as effective in the 1960s, because Walter Cronkite and Chet Huntley and the Old Gentlemen (all men 8( of the news would have exposed his the way that they exposed Joe McCarthy.
I was out of US late-1970s, and also off and on in shorter periods since then. When I came back, obviously I saw the US differently, but I will also point out that I honestly don’t think that the press would have stood by for a Swift Boating back in the 1960s. They were still honorable people who had backgrounds in history, or government… they weren’t just “comm majors” who knew how to fix their hair and ask goo-goo questions.
So I actually think there’s a mix at work: partly, why in buggerall haven’t the Dem’s been more productive and effective (and I truly believe that Soros’s insights about the Feel Good Society speak very much to this whole complicated issue), PLUS, how is it that the wingnut noise machine (Faux Newz, talk radio) became so dominant that the Dem’s were fighting up a tougher slope each year. (A tougher slope in cognitive terms, at least, as repeated messages became ever more rigidified in American thought processes and assumptions.)
Ed*ward Teller: I *very much* like Michael Pollan’s writing: “the Botany of Desire” is among my personal faves. Sounds like another gread read from him; gardening is so good for the soul ;-)
Pach, thanks for clarifying. Makes much more sense now. And I absolutely agree with your sense of urgency (hence, reading FDL Bookclub books and being on my computer on a glorious, sunny afternoon. Sigh.)
“Why not a war on hernias?”
The number of Americans killed over the last 5 years by terrorists numbers somewhat below 5000. At 1000 deaths a year, some comparable threats (from
CDC, 2003):
Acute myocarditis 868
Pneumoconioses 1114
Endocarditis 1245
Hodgkins disease 1347
Offroad land transport accidntts: 1357
Hernias 1613
A trillion-dollar “War on” any of these might be considered a little out of place.
The one and only possible threat that could be considered worth this expenditure is a nuclear strike. If that was truly motivating the Cheney Administration, we’d see a very different story on the currently unfunded Nunn-Lugar.
In discussing GWOT with people, I usually lead with hernias, it’s a little shocking. It’s hard to conclude these people are driving a policy based on the actual threat levels. If you actually care about security, which we around here do, you’ll recognize that’s a trillion dollars we won’t have to meet some other, more real, threat.
(PS Preview problems, sorry if there’s an unmatched tag)
This is the message that has to be delivered by a moral leader; someone who really cares about the welfare of this country. So far we’ve only seen cynical manipulation of gullible and freaked out Americans who still cling to the belief that our leaders would never lie to them.
Barak Obama is about as charismatic as Three-card Monte dealer.
I remember Kerry trying to argue that terrorists were a policing issue, and being ridiculed for it.
The Republican narrative is that treating terrorists as mere criminals is to trivialize the existential conflict we are engaged in.
MarcLord,
amen.
and deal with why we are so despised, while we are at it.
I’m pretty sure that treating terrorists as criminals was actually what Bush was referring to when he said he wasn’t interested in “swatting flies”.
Not to sound ethnocentric either, we need to acknowledge we’re part of the world community and show concern and support outside our borders. This of course is a fantasy because we’ve lost our standing as any kind of world leader. But perhaps someday.
cause I despise me and I am tired of feeling that way.
“So far we’ve only seen cynical manipulation of gullible and freaked out Americans who still cling to the belief that our leaders would never lie to them.”
The also cling to the illusion of American goodness in all things.
This is a nation founded on genocide that has done nothing but extend its murderous practices throughout the world. 9/11 was blip on the radar compared to the crims we’ve committed. Take Central America in the 70’s.
Oh no you can’t because you fools know nothing about it!!
readerOfTeaLeaves at 4:46 pm –
I’ve been a faithful watcher of the News Hour since 1981 — especially Mark Shields.
Way back when, Shields was beside himself that the Democratic Party was relying on older voters, and not rebuilding itself. The sad truth is, the Democratic Establishment is old and decrepit and still thinks it is entitled to the New Deal majorities that sustained it for many decades.
Out of power, they cower like beaten dogs, who will attack anyone who threatens their their stash of cocktail weenies — which is why they are so hostile to the squadrons of rabid venomous lambs.
Memo to the Beltway Democrats — we are not your enemy. We want to kick GOP ass, and will be your shock troops and think tanks, if only you will let us.
Eli @ 4:54 pm (#175) – True, there’s that whole “clash of civilizations” that we’re supposed to be in. I don’t know how to counter that one, since it’s pretty clear that most Muslims couldn’t care less whether we’re Muslims or not, and if all the Muslims in the world were suddenly adherants to some other religion our lives wouldn’t be in the least bit different. There’s also that tremendous disparity between our economic resources and theirs that no one among the CoC crowd seems to think is important.
To be honest I’m a pessimist. Our nation is addicted to simple problems and simple solutions to them. We go and will go through these cycles of bingeing followed by hangovers, short periods of sobriety, followed by more bingeing.
That said, I do think progressives have a role to play by speaking out and refuse to have our issues be hijacked by an idiot media, GOP hatchetmen, or limp Democratic supporters and sellouts. If you want object lessons, listen to John Murtha on Iraq, Al Gore on global warming, and Russ Feingold on many issues. Listen to Mary Ivens who says take the top ten progressive issues that are supported by a majority of Americans: healthcare, education, no stupid wars, privacy, Social Security, real Homeland Security, etc. and just lay them out there one after another. It can be done.
Agree Jenny @ 172, but also don’t believe any Savior will (nor should) arise.
But read Harry Reid’s bio — poor kid, worked his way through college and law school, married his teen sweetheart, and does NOT always tell us what we ‘want’ to hear. He’s Mormon, pro-life, and honest about it. Amen!
Read about Murtha — how he learned early on about the lack of armor in Iraq BECAUSE he actually goes to Walter Reed each week. OMG! A real, conservative, defense-contractor-friendly, Dem who stood up and called Cheney (Mr 5 Deferments) on the carpet and called bullshit on the destruction of the US military in Iraq. Amen to him, too.
And Soros makes the point that the American public IN THE FEEL GOOD ERA (post 1980), expected of politicians only to tell us what we desired to hear. And having come back to the States, I was stunned at how craven US politics looked upon my return; and it’s only gotten worse.
And I think that Soros makes a critical, very important point on the whole topic of the Feel Good Era, and I would say that part of what I hope Pach will narrate is that the Republican/neocons did EXACTLY that. They told Americans EXACTLY what they thought we wanted to hear: government’ is bogus, don’t fret yer lil’ ol’ head about politics, hunny-bun. Goo-goo, ishy, gag-me, drivel.
So… if Soros makes this point (and I have not seen it elucidated elsewhere) then part of the narrative needs to be, “How about voting for people who maybe don’t tell you what YOU want to hear, but do tell you what THEY believe. Like Harry Reid. Like John Murtha. Like James Webb….
And since I’m pro-choice, and don’t agree with many of the positions expoused by either Reid or Murtha, I can scarecely underscore the irony of finding myself writing these things.
But part of the narrative has to be, “We need grownups. And we have some. You know who they are — the people who tried to tell you what you didn’t want to hear. That took l-e-a-d-e-r-s-h-i-p.”
But as klangfarben notes (and citizen k argues, I think?) that you’d have to refine that message for multiple audiences.
But I do believe it is the truth. Therefore, it would resonate.
Sometimes I want to say that the Washington establishment failed us but in some ways that’s not entirely true. A large number of Washington bureaucrats and even analysts outside the government understand what somebody like Soros is saying; those people are the ones who were the sources over the last five years that gave us essentially concrete proof that something very wrong was going on with the Bush Administration. One of their messages was that rationality had been thrown out the window.
The ones who have failed us the most in many ways are the mainstream opinion makers and news makers who have bought into an increasing amount of propaganda and outright bullshit over the last twenty-five years. The Bush nonsense didn’t start with Bush; he merely rode a rising wave of nonsense. That history is long and complicated and I’m not sure how to right the ship anytime soon except to say that there are many liberals like myself who were on the sidelines too long, but we’re now engaged in a generational battle with huge repercussions hardly anyone is fully addressing yet until we do right the ship. Our government is broken but so is the way we talk about things outside the government (though blogs, in fits and starts, are at times improving the way we discuss things).
We can deal with politics by isolating the right, pointing out its failures and nonsense but our real audience is the cautious moderate who voted too often for Republicans. We’re winning them but we risk losing them if we’re not careful.
Drop ‘war’ from the war on terrorism and you’ve still got terrorism in the world. There are rational steps that we need to take and we begin by avoiding creating more terrorists; and creating terrorists is exactly what the Bush approach has been doing for almost five years now. With minimal expense, and without abridging our constitution, protecting ourselves from terrorism is reasonably doable.
But the real issue is how we talk about things and create a consensus that doesn’t look like Alice in Wonderland which is what right wingers have been giving us for some time now. Borrowing techniques from right wingers, by the way, is not the way to go.
I don’t mind combining rational discourse with passion and courage but even liberals need to examine their methods. Liberals can drift into their own Alice in Wonderland if they’re not careful (listen, liberal politicians aren’t the only ones who should be looking for vocabularies ordinary people can understand; I’m looking for that vocabulary myself). I live in a very liberal area and most of my friends take the trouble to understand the issues but even they sometimes get caught up too much in the rhetoric, the irony, the woeful historical narratives, etc. instead of focusing on ‘this is where we are’ and yes maybe ‘this is where we need to go.’ I keep telling them to raise their game but at least they’re the smart liberals. In my area, we have liberals or people considerable to the left who get caught up in material that is closer to being urban mythology they pick up from conversations or a book or two; some of it is even true no doubt, but these kind of liberals sing to their own choirs and have no ability to reach the cautious moderate who otherwise might be reachable.
What I like about the Soros book review is here’s a discussion about where we need to go. We need more discussions like that.
I’ve been reading a blog “Against the War on Terror” that’s written by a small group of activists, students and writers living in New York. It’s got some relevant ideas.
http://againstwot.com/
This is how they describe themselves……..
Our Blog
The war on terror is an attempt to make security the highest goal of American life. Our leaders have reduced politics to questions of mere survival, in which even the smallest risks are viewed as overriding threats to national existence. We at Against the War on Terror aim to challenge this view and the apparent need to eliminate fear itself. The preservation of bare life cannot and should not guide our political activity and dominate our public culture. We reject the very premise of the war on terror……….
I think a part of the point that Soros is making is that, even if liberals generate a bigger, better, louder Wurlitzer – it will be just as much of a waste in the long run without somehow nuturing a culture of where leadership includes or involves thoughtful, deliberative consideration of competing ideas.
From that standpoint, I don’t think his input is as much about how to “outmarket the right” as it is somewhat cautionary about how not to lose by winning. If you have two drowning people that are thrown a lifeline, and they spend their time seeing who can most effectively hold the other under, rather than swimming for the line or figuring out a way to work together to reach it – you don’t really accomplish the long term goals, only a short term “I got my head back above water by pushing them under” response.
The problem is, we have been trying to swim towards the line and pull the neo cons with us, while they have been absolutely exhilerating in success at holding our heads under. It makes it pretty d*mn hard not to lose sight of the line and just respond in kind – and to be honest – SOME response in kind is necessary to survive long enough to reach the line.
But I see Soros as dealing with the longer term issue of damage, not just from the right, but also from the left, can entail if we don’t find a way to address the underlying cultural issues that generate public policy by infotainment soundbites.
While we can counter-strategerize to battle, winning battles can be losing the war when it means that BOTH sides give up any concept of formulating policy by consideration of all available – even if competing – facts. Selectivity for the short term always comes back to bite later, imo.
is there any violent behavior that isn’t anti-social?) Does leaving fingernail marks count as violent behavior?
Simple salient narratives win elections.
Simple salient soundbites that are also truthful will trump attractive and seductive lies.
However — dishonest soundbites will trump complex narratives that are difficult to comprehend.
FDR was the master, that created the modern world with his fireside chats.
Eli @174,
Yes, I remember that Kerry comment and the predictable Wurlitzer response, and was only thinking about how things work, not proposing “effective police work” as a counter-propaganda campaign. I just lapsed into daydreaming about good governance and effective foreign policy for a minute (must’ve been that one West Wing episode my wife forced me to watch). I promise it won’t happen again. ;-)
Coming in late, but a couple of points:
It’s not the content of the policies, it’s the words. let people ASK you about your position on the War on Terror, and answer the questions – just never use that phrase. when you talk about terrorism, just talk about terrorism as terrorism. period.
For when the gaffe-hungry media directly asks you if you believe that we are fighting a War on Terror, or asks why you don’t use that phrase:
“Because I don’t think it’s helpful when our soldiers are fighting a real war in Iraq to confuse that real war with a metaphor. When Richard Nixon declared the War on Cancer, we didn’t send the 101st Airborne into Johns Hopkins on search & destroy missions. People understood what he meant then by using the word “war”, and I think they understand what it means now. It means we’ll use the right people in the right ways, with vigor and intelligence, to deal with some very real and serious problems. It doesn’t mean that we should give a blank check to the President to redefine the law and the Constitution as he sees fit. It doesn’t mean that our country has somehow become one vast military organization. People talk about “our Commander-in-Chief” – well you know, the President is only the Commmander-in-Chief of serving members of the Armed Forces. For the rest of us, he’s simply the President. He’s an elected official of my government, he’s a public servant, just like anyone else in the Federal government. He doesn’t issue us orders as if he were our military superior – if anything, he should be listening TO us, because in a very real sense, he works FOR us. I think that’s a truth that some people have lost sight of, and I’d like to restore that relationship with the American people. I think that’s far more important than any catch phrase or slogan.”
ROTL 184, would it be useful to present a kind of point-counterpoint of all the times Republicans have told us what we “wanted” to hear, juxtaposed with the disastrous reality? Just to demonstrate the dangers of always choosing happy talk over straight talk?
(Of course, it’s not always happy talk – a lot of the time it’s stroking-the-hate-and-fear-centers-of-the-lizard-brain talk)
rotl -
Yes, I don’t mean to sound like we need a ’savior’, many of us don’t need a ‘dear leader’ to tell us which way the wind blows, what is right and what is wrong on the most obvious and fundamental issues, but surprisingly a huge number do. I didn’t realize it myself until ‘04, and then it hit me like a freight train.
They trust the president and woe to us now that we have one who is so unscrupulous. I’m continually amazed that Bush still has so many supporters. He should be in the minus numbers.
That said, I agree we have some very fine people out there (Murtha, Reid, etc., regardless of our differences). The Coleen Rowleys, and others, continue to inspire…
Hugh, I share your angst. But remember: in the US, we have water treatment plants. We have patent laws, We have police who investigate crimes (constrained by budgets, but we have a trained police force, and crime labs).
Not to insult any other nation on the planet, but America has produced more innovations, more medicines, more engineering technologies than any other place that I’m aware of.
Now… we just have to figure out a way to bring politics to the same level of our technical expertise. Politics 3.0 can’t come soon enough.
I’m hoping the Nov 06 elections will provide a chance for a whole new, feature-rich upgrade.
If nothing else, I take heart in the absolutely incredible professionalism that I’m seeing in the Webb campaign, Lamont campaign, Bruner campaign.. I”ve never, ever seen antythng like this before.
But it goes back to Peterr’s earlier point: if elected, these new folks are going to have to put some new accountability and openness infrastructures in place if they are to remain credible. But those would be cool challenges ;-)
Why can’t we have another FDR? Who can take his place? What made him so damn effective? How can his shoes be filled? Oh, for another FDR.
Well, Craig at 5:09 did a better job with fewer typos, so I defer.
Mary –
After we grab the rope and drown the wing nuts, I’ll be happy to have Soros write books condemning the Left for failing to live up to his ideals.
In the meantime, our team needs to adopt Al Davis’ motto:
Just Win, Baby — Just Win . . .
Craig 185:
Not to take this into OT territory, but this is how I felt when I saw Gore’s movie. It was classy because instead of showing us horrifying and pitiful examples of dying species (which he could have laid on thick), his basic premise was, look, we’re in a bit of trouble but we can still turn this ship around.”
I think this was a brilliant maneuver on his part. Talk about the problem in the most serious way, but then deliver hope as well. This is our challenge…
MarcLord @189: i would love to be able to come up with some way to spread the message, “It’s not a WAR, people!”, but I’m not sure how, short of being able to say, “There are roughly X,000 Islamic terrorists in the world, and police work is capable of rounding up (some number greater than X,000).”
But I’m not sure how to make that sound convincing, unless that X is self-evidently so small that the idea of being “at war” with them is laughable.
Heh, well, what Gore really said was, “We’re in a shitload of trouble but we can still pull through if we start NOW. Heck, we’re all grownups here.
An incredible conversation here today. Later…
I get your point -ck- seriously as well as notsoseriously. But it isn’t really living up to ideals – it’s making the best decisions based on the most facts. Discourse that drowns out any portion of the facts is harmed. It may be necessary for survival – but even if so, it needs to be recognized for the effect it has.
If the guy who kept trying to pull you under – and who you eventually just get pissed enough at to hold them under for the count – ends up being the guy who also could make the engine work when you get on board, you’ve just delayed adverse consequences by taking him completely out of the equation.
At least, that is how I partly view Soros’ theory (he can shoot that down himself later I guess *g*).
So I think we have a much more difficult dilema than just how to outshout and bettersimplify. That’s short term and absolutely necessary for survival (like backing off the guy who’s pulling you under). But if we do it by using the same knife in the back methods, it results in the loss, at some point, of a chunk of facts and issues that we would have probably been better off not losing from the conversation entirely. fwiw
Off to market to my critters. They have adapted wonderfully well to giving me soulful, “I agree” looks to my diatribes, especially when I have food with me.
Just freewheeling a bit here….
Problem: how to switch a narrative from “War on Terror” to “catch and prosecute criminals.”
Possible ways to pitch it:
For imperialist me-firsters, suggest that there are better, tougher heroes than W and his gang. Make the message about who has the bigggest (fill in blank), not about the methods. Alas, fear is a big motivator with these folks, that and an inability to deal with deferred gratification (or consequences).
For authoritarian-leaning cultists, suggest that there is a more-moral, more-correct leader for the effort (once we find one), and try to shade the message to minimize the xenophobic component –lynch mobs and revenge killing come from this value system. Suggest that justice has to follow a cleaner path than warfare. Emphasize inclusiveness: if you understand that cops do law enforcement, not armies, then you’re part of the family.
For the corporadoes, appeal to the pocketbook (hard to do when war profiteering is so lucrative). We all make more money if we approach this as something other than a war; the win is bigger if we catch bad guys with finesse and our wits.
I’m coming up blank on the message media, and other commenters are correct, we need a charismatic pol to carry this forward. The timeframe is short, and the crisis is real.
But I do want to keep stressing the idea that we have to communicate differently to different folks.
“ROSEBUD”
This is a good time for one of my first responses:
To Soros, the “war on terror” metaphor is like a market bubble primed to pop.
Yes, that’s true — but as a market analyst, Soros understands that markets lurch from irrational exuberance to irrational fear. They only move to a state of rational behavior when irrational fear and greed are offset by the irrational influence of the other.
To stretch the metaphor — in 1939, Fascism was like a market bubble primed to pop, as soon as it had expanded beyond it’s rational boundaries. Yes, rationality finally prevailed — but at what cost while the bubble was expanding?
tatere at 189 – sweet!
also, I was away a bit (dog duty), just read a whole swath of posts and that Harper’s article, so I can’t pinpoint the source of a new ad blooming in my damaged brain. Definitely the footage of the President sitting dumfounded with the children’s book after being told of the 9/11/01 attack, probably also Cheney saying f*** you, anything from Ted Stevens, and anything else with the current administration being childish and/or tantrum-y — just run the clips, and follow up with “don’t you think it is time the grown-ups took charge”
mixed feelings on this one, it is just what popped in my head. And, we will also have to find some grown-ups.
I think that there are reasons it is difficult to fit the strategies used by George Soros and others in the former East Block countries. Fighting communism is not the same as fighting fundamentalist religion, which is the main enemy of American liberty. Marxism-Leninism claimed to be completely materialist, the antidote to religion, which it viewed as an opiate for the masses. It claimed its views about society, class struggle, and the dictatorship of the proletariat were the result of a scientific analysis of society. Marxism’s pseudo-scientific analysis claimed to provide true insight that all music, art, ideology, nationalism, and religions were based on class-consciousness. It was called totalitarianism because it purported to explain all of human existence. However, its implementation in Leninist one-party states was a failure when measured by material standards which were observable to all elements of East Bloc society including the leaders, the led, and the dissidents. Communism did not fall because Reagan’s USA had the will and could afford to
arm itself beyond the capacities of the USSR. It fell because it was not only rejected by the mass of people in those societies, but also because it ultimately not defended with military and police powers by the leaders of those societies, such as Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Gorbachev had no appetite for the “socialism of tanks.” Nationalism aided in the struggle against communism in the satellite nations and all the Soviet Republics except perhaps Russia itself. This was because the Leninist concept of the Vanguard of the Proletariat centralized decisive power in the Moscow politburo. Also, religion in both its fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist varieties was a powerful force against Communism in both Catholic Poland and Islamic Afghanistan.
Religion, however, claims to be based on revelation and faith, not the scientific study of evidence. The primary evidence, which might support its truth, knowledge of who goes to heaven and who is damned to hell is not reliably observable. The American species of fundamentalist Christianity teaches that scientific evidence is misleading and that literal ultimate truth is written in the Bible. They say we should reject evidence of a Big Bang over 10 billion years ago and Darwinian evolution and accept the Biblical story of creation by God in six days. Islamic fundamentalists have a similar attitude towards the Koran (Quran). Despite claims of fealty to the Bible, Christian fundamentalists repeatedly ignore important parts of the Biblical version of Christ’s teachings. They ignore that he is quoted as saying that the 2 most important commandments were to Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. They also forget the parts that call us to love our enemies and to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s while rendering to God what is God’s. To listen to them one would think the main commandments were to not have an abortion, not be gay, not have sex outside of marriage and to worship the American Flag. To combat them we have to free the imagination from the belief that the Truth for All Times was written in an Ancient Holy Book by people who, unlike people today, had a direct connection to God. We must criticize irrational beliefs that the Pope’s teachings infallibly represent the truth and that President is God’s Chosen Leader for His Chosen Nation. We need to unite atheists, agnostics, non-religious believers in spirituality, humanists, scientists who accept evolution and reject creationism and those who believe that sacred texts are better understood as metaphor than literal truth. Perhaps we will find more effective ways of combating theocratic corporate fascism by studying the Age of Enlightenment, when democrats and scientists combated the Absolute Rule of Kings supported by Divine Right than by trying the methods used to trigger the downfall of Communism. We will not succeed by re-fighting the last war.
I’ve used this quote before but it reflects much of my opinion that we have had a series of failed or near failed Presidencies stretching back to Kennedy.
11/5/04 Kevin Phillips on NOW with Bill Moyers reviewing the 2004 Presidential election
Well, the worst thing to me is we’ve had so many second rate choices really, for the last 30 or 40 years relentlessly. It seems that that’s likely to be true in the future, too. I don’t see what changes it. I don’t have any sense that the average person sees a whole lot of hope for politics. And as a result, the turnout among young people, the people expected in this last election, didn’t materialize. I would hope that something would really engage ordinary Americans, not just those who are mobilized by churches and that was a very large percent of the mobilization this time, I don’t know what’s going to produce that.
I think the United States is really in some respects, on the sort of downhill slope that the great economic powers of the world get when they’ve got this division between rich and poor, when they’re overextended globally, when they’re building up debt. I mean, this has happened many times before. It seems like it’s where we are. And I don’t expect politics to address that honestly. I don’t expect the people to be mobilized in a serious across the board way. And frankly, that makes me very concerned about where it’s all going. So I’d like to be proven wrong in the next four years.
Bad leadership, bad directions, and bad decisions are not cost free. Bush has made incredibly stupid choices and we will pay an incredibly high price for them.
We became the preeminent country in the world through hard work and smarts. It was not some God given right. Wasting our resources on imperial adventures in Iraq merely hastens the day of our decline. We need to be smart but in Bush we choose to act stupid. The fault is not in our stars but in ourselves.
I haven’t had a chance to read Soro’s book, but the excerpt about “War on Terror” as a false metaphor is something I’ve felt strongly about since 911. I’ve always felt structuring our response as a war was the wrong model to follow, and developed an alternative. Here’s a couple of excerpts from something I wrote back on 9-18-01 that summed up my take on what we should do. Note: At the time I wrote it, we were only looking at going into Afghanistan; Iraq would come later.
The great problem with declaring war on terrorism is that it is likely to turn out just as well as the war on drugs or the war on poverty. Framing the problem in military terms locks the mind into thinking in terms of battles, body counts, territory seized, forces overcome, all leading to a final victory.
Fighting terrorism is far more complex than taking on a foe with neatly uniformed troops arrayed on a field of combat behind formalized lines, backed by a government with clearly defined goals and objectives. There are no front lines. The enemy can come from anywhere at any time, and they aren’t recognizable as such until they attack. What they seek is not necessarily rational, nor can they be expected to abide by the rules of armed conflict.
Further, responding to Bin Laden and his ilk as a threat requiring the full military response of the world’s only current superpower grants to him a legitimacy and a stature that strengthens him even as it weakens us. An elephant may challenge a mouse, but not without losing its’ dignity. Worse, the greater the force we use, the easier it is for our opponents to justify escalating their level of terror.
There is no question that terrorism is a serious threat, perhaps the most immediate major threat of our time — but putting our response within a military framework is not the only choice nor the best choice available.
I would suggest that a far more effective strategy for dealing with terrorism is to view it as we would view an outbreak of an especially virulent plague. Rather than treating Bin Laden as a Hitler or Ghengis Khan, it would be more effective to regard him and his followers as a disease.
How do we deal with disease? Carriers and infected persons are isolated and quarantined until they are either cured or rendered non-infectious. Contacts are traced and investigated. Steps are taken to control transmission; public health measures are put into place to control outbreaks. Conditions that breed disease are cleaned up. Susceptible populations are immunized. People make lifestyle changes to reduce their risk. Travelers to regions where a disease is endemic take precautions.
Using the disease analogy makes it possible to draw some parallels. The attacks on America have done for air travel what HIV did for casual unprotected sex.
Treating this particular plague will require armed force and look a lot like a war at times, but the context will be significantly different, as will the objectives.
The public health campaign against the disease of terrorism will require more than armed force. (Though that will be essential, especially in the triage aspect of the job.) We also have to attack the roots of the plague: a lack of education, poverty, ill health, oppression, and ingrained attitudes.
*snip*
You don’t fight a plague by killing all of the infected victims; you protect yourself first, you eliminate sources of infection, you prevent the incurables from infecting anyone else by whatever means necessary, and you try to save the rest. You give them what they need to recover.
In this case, an extended course of sane behavior along with food and medical treatment is prescribed. Terrorists make no distinctions in their attacks; everyone is a target. If we want to be seen as different, we must make distinctions.
We should be prepared to not only apply armed force, but humanitarian behavior as well. We have nothing to teach the Afghan people about terror, retribution, betrayal, fear, or hatred; we have everything to show them about mutual respect, tolerance, and intelligent cooperation.
We should be prepared to meet not just military objectives, but civil, religious, and social objectives. What happened to America was barbaric by any standard; our response must be seen to be civilized.
Our forces should include people from many countries, among them respected moslem clerics and other spokesmen to make it clear that we are not engaged in a jihad of our own, but a public health operation.
The sheer horror of the attack on the U.S. gives us a potential advantage in that it makes it difficult for any sane person to deny us the right to take action. Portraying Bin Laden and his deluded followers as suffering from an infectious system of irrational beliefs is a lot less flattering than portraying him as an evil mastermind. It also makes it easier to sell our campaign.
Nothing would please Bin Laden more than a campaign of military action that would drive people into his camp. Nothing would cause him greater anguish than seeing us find a way to engage them and bring them into our world. He seeks to exclude and destroy; we must reject the temptation to respond in kind because that only spreads the plague further.
Yes, incredible conversation today. Remarkable.
Pach, I do think that I’ve finally thought more clearly, aided by this thread. And I vow to not comment so frequently in future (!).
I read much of what Mr Soros is saying is that above all other necessary actions, identifying and telling the truth is the first, best act. That is the premise upon which all future actions and assumptions must rest. If it is flawed, everything that follows will be fundamentally flawed. This is the nature of life.
Soros sees that we’ve become a Feel Good, largely passive culture. I will add that I have spent hours, and hours, and HOURS sitting on a commission listening to public testimony, and the inability of many Americans to understand their local laws, then prepare and present a three minute piece of testimony, is heartbreaking.
But somehow, when someone ‘tells their story’ you can just feel it resonate in the room.
The most simple statements, and the hand-written notes on personal paper are often more eloquent than the most high-fallutin’ legal letterhead and the $320/hr attorneys.
Because nothing else has the power of truth, in terms of having an absolutely unshakable, deeply rooted authority.
So I think that Aravoisis’ approach, though it may be well intentioned, will never compete if it is not grounded in reality (which we call ‘truth’).
It’s no accident that ‘truthiness’ entered the English language during Bush 43. (Although I think Craig is absolutely right that the roots of this preceed Dubya.)
If I had a higher regard for Bush 41, then I would say that Bush 43 is an American Mordred; the kid who will never be as good as his dad, and who will therefore take us all down into the festering madness of his envy, resentment, vanity, arrogance, defiance, and delusion. Cheney and Rummy and neocons, by feeding into Bush 43’s arrogance, have committed profoundly immoral acts — but (and again, I agree with Soros) because America is so important, they’ve committed these crimes against humanity.
So I leave this long thread (and I will try to never, ever comment so much on any thread again!) I leave with this thought — it’s critically important to speak TRUTH.
Aravoisis’s approach, by simply ‘redefining’ a concept that is not rooted in reality, is faulty.
————–
In super-simple programming terms…
If X = T, then (do Y);
If X = F, then (do, K and M);
The corollary is this:
If $_warOnTerror = T, then (redefine it in progressive terms);
But we cannot do that, because
$_warOnTerror = F;
Therefore, in terms of correctly acting on reality:
If $_warOnTerror = F, then {(K = $revealAsFiction) (M = articulateFictionToMultipleAudiences)};
I find a clear, logical, simple structure aids in thinking, and I hope it makes at least a bit of sense on reading 8-
—————————–
The War on Terror is, as Soros points out, a ‘war’ against an abstraction. These are not winnable. These are wars against ideas, and you don’t win those by violating and subverting laws; only by honoring and keeping laws, as CHS, and Fitz, and others seek to do.
To win against an idea, you need ideas.
You don’t start a military ‘war’ against an abstraction. (Unless you have other motives, like Oil, or Halliburton Share Prices, in which case your dishonesty at the root of your procedure will come back to bit you unexpectedly in the future at the least expected moment.)
So if something is false, it needs to be shown to be false. If I understand Popper’s philosophy — and also Soros’s applications of it — correctly, then the primary goal of any action is to correctly understand and articulate the nature of a thing.
The War on Terror is a false metaphor. I believe this to be a true statement.
As such, it is not possible for it to have a good outcome, BECAUSE it is based on false premises.
Therefore, the only way to begin addressing the problems created by this false premise is to first begin by exposing it as false.
The press did not do that. To their shame. They have not done that.
The Republicans are too late; they needed to begin recognizing and speaking out about this false premise at least by March 2005. They failed.
There is now a vacuum.
The Dems need to build on at least the people who started to speak out — and Hillary was not in that group. The people who first spoke out were those willing to take the biggest risks, the most willing to tell people what they did not want to hear. (Ironically, people who superficially have very little in common: Murtha, Reid, Feingold, now including Lamont, Webb, Tester, and a growing diversity of others who don’t fit any specific demographic or marketing profile).
It is very, very important to reveal the War on Terror as a false metaphor.
To see just how powerful the truth willl be, I have only to recall how much Cheney, Libby, and the rest sought to smear Joe Wilson for speaking truth.
Truly, there is nothing more important, over time, than being truthful.
Godspeed, and thanks for the chance to think more about all this. –rOTL
I had to go away to make dinner…
One observation – if the Dems can start by making it clear that the War on Terror has nothing to do with the War in Iraq, they can start chipping at that WOT ‘concept’.
Most Americans and the press think those two are related. We all know that Saddam had nothing to do with Ossama.
Re War! On! Terror! Boo! propaganda, I keep coming back to the aspens letter. Biological weapons…was this phony scare closed down by V for Vendetta? Sure has been quiet on the avian flu
scamfront.One other of the 4 aspens is the Iranian nuclear program. Scooter is talking about the topics about which Judy Miller will be
creating propagandaproviding honest journalism. Is there time to make a new movie before we, or our surrogate, attack Iran?Returning to “V”, there are two levels of possible concern. If you think the neocons are simply taking advantage of terrorist events, that’s one level of concern/horror. If you will permit yourself to imagine a rogue group among the neocons in our government that actually create such events, a la V, it permits one to contemplate that they might create additional events in the future. Not asking you to agree with me, only to consider briefly what our country would be like, if this was the correct assumption.
A patient, calm repetition of the fact that one can not “war” on an emotion or a tactic would succeed if only every Democrat, liberal or progressive repeated it. Alas, we can’t even agree on what to call ourselves–much less agree to put the lie to warring on emotions and tactics.
Has anyone seen Juan Williams’s smack-down of Bill Kristol on Israel’s and America’s failed macho policies of war, war and more war and not talking?
Dig it: http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..-williams/
Juan, I always knew you had it in you (albeit deeply buried for too long).
Soros is from Hungary. To understand him, you might want to read his father’s memoir of protecting his children from the fascists. He is the hero of that tale.
Tivadar Soros.
“For my part, I don’t believe you can take down failed conservative policies by deploying conservative rhetoric, even if you seek to redefine it.”
If you mean by “conservative rhetoric,” republican talking points, then I totally agree — this is a common strategic mistake (if it is not a deliberate cop-out) among Democrats.
But if you mean by “conservative,” rhetoric that wishes to CON SERVE age-old philosophical and religious principles that lie at the roots of American democracy (as the Founding Fathers were well aware), then I definitely do NOT agree. In this country the word “conservative” is loaded and misused. I don’t propose revamping the word itself, which would simply lead to confusion, but the concept is all the more important as our entire political discourse drifts farther and farther away from it.
Palaeoconservative/libertarians like Justin Raimondo will be quick to point out that the so-called conservatives that like Bush are not conservative at all but flaming radicals. I think we can all agree. But even the Palaeoconservative/libertarians are not as conservative as they think, they are really like 19th-century “liberals” (the invisible hand of the market and all that.) Moreover, people that call themselves progressive today are often conservative in their desire to preserve the traditional (human) rights of and respect for working people, minorities, the environment — these ideas are rooted deep in western philosophy, even if they were not always observed, they were at various times and places observed and backed by principles, long BEFORE the so-called Enlightenment. What’s my point? “Liberals,” “progressives,” are arguing from much too narrow a list of talking points, much too tiny a slice of history, and ceding the rest to “conservatives.” In fact, the traditional approach I’m talking about would effectively undermine conservatives. BTW, if you think the Rapture theology is “traditional religion,” how do you explain the fact that it didn;t exist before Edward Irving in the early 19th century? Even fundamentalism (the idea that the Bible should only be read “literally”) didn’t exist before the 17th century
If all this sounds too theoretical, I can assure you that in activism on American Indian and anti-corporatist and environmental issues, to name the ones I am most familiar with, the approach has been used with great success — because it resonates with reality — defending ancient cultures, defending all traditional communities against the radical onslaught of corporatism, and defending the natural environment, is NOT “progressive” — it is essentially conservative in the true sense of the word. People respond to that, because it speaks to their fundamental being.
With all due respect to the amazing brain power here,I’d like to add something and I hope I can word it right.
I’m a high school graduate.I never had the money or opportunity to go to college.I got my first real job at age 15,and I worked every chance I could until my last child was born 12 yrs ago.I was brought up with a solid work ethic,getting dirt under my nails has never been an issue for me.I’m fortunate that my hubby has a job that allows me to be a Mom full time,which is both a blessing and sometimes a curse.
I was lucky enough to attend high school(class of 1978)before schools went crazy with teaching to the testing and all that.So I had civics and political science 101 in high school.I went to an amazing high school in the suburbs of Columbus,Ohio if you can believe that one,looking at Ohio now.This school isn’t like that anymore,but at the time,it may have been one of the best in the country.
Now comes the tricky part of what I want to convey here:
Since I graduated high school,any education I’ve had hasn’t been formal.I read constantly,I think my bookshelves may collapse from the weight at some point.Conversations like this one intimidate the hell out of me because frankly,alot of it is WAY over my head.I’m not stupid,not by a long shot,and I know the world is not a simple place with lots of simple answers.
But I do believe(and this may have to do with being raised in my early years right on the outskirts of Appalachia in SE Ohio,where people were blue collar and often didn’t graduate high school)that humans tend to make things way more complex than they ever need to be and as a result we often get in our own way.Someone like me will never understand economics for example(except for my own checkbook and trying to live within my means),let alone philosophy of any kind.It becomes an overwhelming and daunting thing,and if you don’t understand it,you do feel stupid.It might be different if I could devote solid years of study to all this,but that’s not possible.I have a child to raise(and hopefully,send to college one day,but we have alot to overcome first),a home to take care of,and sometimes it can take me two weeks to read one book,just because of constant interruptions.I’m 46 yrs old,and I feel woefully out of the loop and way behind everyone else.(having a “special needs”child is also very isolating,but that’s another story,lol)
Mr Soros is a good man,and we can learn alot from him.
However,philosophy and deep political thinking,ala think tanks and the like is where people like me lose a place at the table when it comes to politics.It’s not that I have no ideas or a clue how to solve problems(in fact I think I have alot of good ideas,most of which are fairly simple and long term cost effective),it’s that,well,it’s all over my head,and I don’t think I’m alone on that one.This is what perpetuates apathy(among other things)in many Americans because when we try to learn about this stuff and talk with people who do get it and have that formal education,the conversation goes way out and over our heads.I’m not ashamed to admit that,but many people are.
I don’t believe in dumbing ourselves down,that’s a HUGE problem in this country that’s helped get us into this mess.But I think for politics to be welcoming to the majority and really grab people,some sort of middle ground has to be reached.Even if someone smarter than I am isn’t intent on making me feel like a doofus,I often do feel that way,and the result is frustration.Maybe we need a No Adult Left Behind program,lol.
I keep thinking of Paul Wellstone,how he understood that a Progressive movement meant taking politics to the people and making it relevant to them at their kitchen tables.Rather than basing a movement on “fancy”philosophy,he appealed to people’s basic needs being met,and their sense of what’s fair and right for the most people.Knowing that those things would make life better for everyone no matter where they live,work or their level of education.I think this is what’s missing from modern politics.Even more inclusive Progressive politics.
I live in GA,which is fast becoming a very much more backward place at such a rapid pace it frightens me sometimes.Atlanta itself is “blue”,and perhaps a few other dots on the state map,but the state itself is decidedly “red”.I have tried,over and over again for the last 10 yrs to connect with Dems here.I’ve offered up my home as a meeting center,I’ve even tried to start little book salons for Progressives and other such things.The response has been crickets chirping.Going to work for Dems was a,well,shit experience.As soon as it was clear to people that I’m not moneyed or a college grad,I was relegated to fetching food and menial tasks and not listened to.Why should I work for a party who doesn’t give a damn about me and can’t be bothered to listen?And none of the things being worked on by the Dems had direct relevance to me and what I care about(I honestly don’t see much diff in GA Dems and the GA GOP at this point,from a common person’s view at least).It’s a club,and only certain people who dress a certain way and have a certain level of education are allowed to join.On a national level,our state has been shunned by Progressives in general because the common wisdom seems to be that this state is lost to the GOP anyway and the resources shouldn’t be wasted on us.Short of moving(and trust me,the hubby and I want out of here,as soon as he can find a job that pays enough)out of the South,I feel stuck in an odd limbo I see no way out of.I won’t even include the physical danger and intimidation that plays into speaking out,but that’s a consideration for me and mine too.
I’m not whining here,and I don’t feel sorry for myself,time’s too short for that sort of thing.But I believe personal experiences matter alot more than studies and statistics,more than philosophy,more than damn near anything.If people do not feel included and at least somewhat understood,you’ll never,ever be able to reach them and have it stick.
Of course,since I am so behind so many others,I could be completely wrong too.It’s been known to happen,lol.
This is absolutely the best discussion I have seen on FDL since I started reading almost a year ago. If someone could take this entire thread and boil it down to some threads of ideas, and then put them into a weekly radio spot (I’m thinking in the style of Paul Harvey or Jim Hightower), and then asking for feedback to some blog, the test marketing data would give some idea of survivability of each of the memes. Start a new meme regime, so to speak.
Just a quick note, as I came to read this thread early on Monday to see whether anyone had added things — b/c I loved it so much, and like sofistic, I found it **amazing**.
Dear Angry Old Broad — your words are EXACTLY part of what I mean when I say that when a person ‘tells the truth’ and ‘tells their own story’ it is a powerful, powerful thing.
I have other tasks and obligations this Monday, but am noting on my calendar to come and write more thoughts regarding your post, b/c it is so courageous, so decent, so true, and so insightful.
Some of my personal experiences mirror yours, but here’s part of what I’d like to think about and get back to later: t’s a club,and only certain people who dress a certain way and have a certain level of education are allowed to join.On a national level,our state has been shunned by Progressives in general because the common wisdom seems to be that this state is lost to the GOP anyway and the resources shouldn’t be wasted on us.S
Thank you so much for having the courage, and the perspective, and the honesty to write what you have written.
Take care — more in about 12 hours. I hope you come back to see this, because honesty like yours is what’s been missing from politics in the US since at least since the late 1970s.
I’m reminded of an image that I once heard from a minister… about how whatever anyone believes, none of us should miss the fact that quietly, in the silence of time, grass grows up through concrete. Angry Old Broad, I think you just brought a much-needed bit of enlightenment into this conversation. Thank you so much.
I hope that what we’re doing is helping to avert the disaster that I fear is coming.
I fear that the only way to stop the wars (and there will be more) will be a tax revolt. The only way to have a tax revolt is to elect enough anti-war senatorial and congressional reps that they could override a veto, and starve the military of the funds it needs to stay there. That takes clean elections, and if there isn’t a dem majority in January, then we’ll know the elections have been stolen.
At that point, the only important thing to do would be to work on corruption and vote fraud.
Angry OB: I have multiple post-graduate degrees and I have exactly the same sense you do. It’s not a function of education at all.
In fact, there was an interesting incident where the Kerry campaign refused to hire an internet coordinator who had done brilliantly at the Dean campaign, instead selecting someone who knew someone – someone that they were “comfortable with”. One of the reasons that the Repukes have been so successful in their “elite snob” attack is that there is a kernel of truth in it.
I think I’m gonna cry here.I’m SO glad I am not alone on this one.It’s really rough to be in Ralph Reed and Newt country,because I am really pretty much a lone voice in a suburban wilderness.And the hostility towards anything even remotely deemed”liberal”is sometimes frightening here in the megachurch suburbs.No way can I have a Dem political sign in my yard even,it will either be stolen or torn to bits and thrown in my yard,not to mentiom making myself a target for anything from vandalism to death threats.I’ve caught hell for tshirts I’ve worn,and I had to remove the bumperstickers from my car to protect my son(who is usually in the car with me)and myself.This isn’t America,it’s Hell.I HATE it here.I’m not naive,the South has serious cultural issues(racism and class issues especially),but this is beyond that.I really worry the next two “big”elections are going to result in people getting hurt,it IS that hostile.This was NOT happening to this degree when I moved here a decade ago.
I doubt I’m the only liberal/progressive person here,but I think honestly,people who are like me are scared and intimindated,and it’s not in our imagination.
I don’t see people who can wrap their heads around policy and political philosophies as “elitist”(for example,I’m no law school grad,but Christy and I have a bunch of things in common.I know this from reading her posts and comments.She’s no snob by a long shot).I respect people who worked hard and got an education.But they aren’t the only ones with something of value to offer when it comes to making this country a better place.I think alot of people don’t vote or get politically active because they feel like it’s above them,and they’ll look dumb in front of people.
Yo,
Wildroot Hair Tonic made you handsome…then it was greasy kid’s stuff. The words, war on terror, bring on that mouth agape, great smoke kind of feeling.
SNAP OUT OF IT
Here’s the key phrase, ” fight extremism, forget the slogans”
The Karls have ONLY slogans, but war on terror is a sixth grade level PR phrasing. It’s just a slogan, nothing behind it.
War on terror is a nice slogan, but how about heavy port searches, War on terror is a nice slogan but how about a response team good enough to handle Katrina, War on…well you get what I mean.
Dems are just asleep. There’s lots of words.
myolmaz
AOB – I promised a response, but have been caught up in a problem that has turned into a Timesuck. I will, however, hope to respond on Tues.
citizen k – another good point. I could see you and raise you on stories of this type 8-p
AOB (and citizen k), I just wrote a long comment but it was eaten before it posted. In the meantime, since reading AOB’s comments, my brain has spun out diagrams of philosophers which can’t be posted here. If you are online Sunday for the next Salon (which I hope to join), I’ll catch up then.
Meanwhile, AOB, hang in there. Your local Dems sound more like a ‘private club’ than a political party. You’re up against a wall, and you migtht try joining the Georgia Netroots as a more effective means to engage in ideas.
There is no college program that I know of that can substitute for avid curiousity and an open mind. But there are many, many kinds of learning, as well as many types of expertise.
Personally, in my own life, it’s taken years to find a good auto mechanic, and also a really good dentist. I now have found very good people, and I think my auto mechanic is some kind of genius.
He has skills that I could never touch – there are lots of different kinds of ’smarts’ and unfortunately because schools have tended to be good at teaching verbal/linguistic skills, these are perhaps more highly valued in American society than is entirely sane.
I know a man who explained to me all about how NASCAR cars have to pay a lot of attention to the air pressure in the tires, and about how really good NASCAR drivers have the best pit crews and backups — he’s not very verbal, but what he konws about fuels and machines and engines is astounding.
So I’ll think more about ways to explain some of the ideas of Karl Popper that underlie some of Mr Soros’s book. It’s a very, very important book, IMHO and the more of us who grapple with the ideas he presents, understand what he’s saying, and apply that knowledge, the better off we’ll all be.
So don’t give up! Just figure out what you can given the background that you already possess, and then keep asking questions.