
UPDATE: Crooks and Liars has the video up of the Wilson press conference. Thanks, John!
So, I spent some quality time with my highlighter, a fine point red pen, and the Wilson complaint last night. And I had a fine conversation with a couple of lawyer friends about the complaint as well — it has been a while since I had my hands on a civil matter, and I wanted to double check some of my gut reactions to the document.
There are a number of complex legal issues wrapped into this twenty-three page complaint filed on behalf of the Wilsons yesterday, and I want to be sure that I have a solid understanding of the legal precedents involved, so that everyone can get a good understanding of where things stand with this. Especially with regard to the Bivens case and the issues of qualified immunity and other immunity grounds that may be argued on behalf of the defendants therein.
But I know everyone is also waiting for some analysis on the complaint, so I want to take a first pass on it with everyone and get some thoughts from the legal folks in the readership based on their federal civil litigation experience (something that I do not have a lot of in my legal background, let me just say right up front).
This civil complaint is a bit unusual, in that from the very first page, it reads like a political document aimed just as much at the media and at the public discourse as at the court itself. This is to be expected, I suppose, when youa re dealing with high level government officials who are accused of stepping outside their public duties in a personal mission of payback against a man who called them on their lies to the public — but still, from my read through, it is very different from every other civil complaint that I have dealt with in my legal career. (That said, I sure as hell haven’t spent time suing the President’s cronies, either, and I haven’t exactly lived my life in the beltway legal power circles, so ymmv.)
Here are my initial observations on the Wilson’s complaint (and the Muck has a non-PDF version for your perusal):
– On page 1, para. 1, the case starts with a bang, with the quote from GHWB:
….I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors."
This is a poke on several levels, and amusing in that standing outside the fray looking in sort of way. GWB has issues with his father, we have been told over and over by family and friends and insiders in the Bush milieu, and this quote just rubs salt in that wound by pointing daddy’s finger directly at all of Junior’s minions. Beyond that, I have heard that not only did Joe Wilson try directly and through back channels to let the Administration quietly know that the "16 words" were in error, but that a number of GHWB’s old gang tried to also do so on Amb. Wilson’s behalf, much to the irritation of Junior and the consternation of Dick Cheney. This has always been tied up in the run-up to the Iraq conflict and ego and hubris and all those nasty bits in between.
And the civil case will allow a whole lot more of this to come out, if it survives the initial attempts at summary judgment. (But that is an involved topic for later this weekend, I’m afraid, because explaining the odds on the various permutations is a post all its own, I’m afraid.)
– There are a number of other pokes along these same lines as well. On page 3, para. 8, the mention of the GHWB commendation to Wilson. (Junior is, reportedly, miffed that dad gives out praise to others, but doesn’t often give him the same praise, I have heard through the grapevine. And Babs, while overprotective of her Georgie, isn’t the same as getting a pat on the head from dear old dad. Interesting, no?)
Smack #3 at the President comes out of his own mouth, on page 5, para. 15: "if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of." (Oh, really?)
– The conspiracy counts deal with current and former high-level Administration officials in the White House and actions taken by and on behalf of those officials (p. 1-2, para. 2) and "persons who were either employed by the United States government in senior positions at all times relevent to this Complaint or who were political operatives with close ties to such persons." (p. 4, para. 12)
Here’s a good question: "political operatives" — does this include Mary Matalin after she left government service as well as Karen Hughes, both of whom were members of the WHIG? How about Ken Mehlman at the RNC? There are a LOT of Cheney/Rove/Bush surrogates out there who were doing an awful lot of whispering, including the Boris and Natasha duo of Joe DiGenova and Victoria Toensing, at various points. (Just peeking back through Meet the Press after Joe Wilson’s op-ed is going to be a hoot, let alone Andrea Mitchell’s dinner party listing, including the high-level neocon guest list that she and Alan Greenspan host each year for various functions.) That little piece of the complaint alone is worth a whole lot of thought, consideration, speculation and clip digging. Let the games begin…
– The "John Doe" defendants are placeholders. This is a common strategy in civil complaints at the beginning of a case, prior to discovery being initiated, where you have likely defendants in mind and some evidence of their involvement in problematic behavior, but not enough evidence to survive summary judgment on them. So you hold their place until you have enough discovery and evidence to add them into the complaint.
– Do the Wilsons know who Pincus’ source was for his mid-June article? (p. 7, para. g.) How about the source for the Pincus/Allen article? Because if they do, they may have some Administration insiders who have been feeding them information out of disgust for the Cheney cabal taking things too far…and wouldn’t THAT be interesting?
– Something that has been bugging me for a while, who was the CIA contact that fed Cheney the information on Valerie? (p. 8, para. h) How high did they go? Was it Fleitz — or Tenet? That would be an interesting nugget to know, wouldn’t it?
– On the poison pills: there are various points in the complaint that assert issues as the government (via Patrick Fitzgerald in his indictment and case against Libby) has asserted them. There are a lot of arguements either way on this (and looseheadprop and I batted this back and forth a bit yesterday, because I needed to bounce this issue around a bit — it’s complicated in a good mental chess sort of way). Generally, the "government" is tied to its arguments. But you have individual defendants here, sued in their individual capacity — but it will be very difficult for themto argue against what the government has already laid out as its case.
Here’s an example: on p. 10, para. o, they pull information directly out of one of Fitzgerald’s filings (of 5/12/06) regarding the Wilson op-ed that Cheney ripped out of the paper, annotated in his own handwriting with "marching orders" on the Wilsons, and that Libby saw. And that the government, via Fitzgerald, has argued showed focused attention by Cheney and Libby on the Wilsons, including on Valerie. ("Wife sent on boondoggle" ring any bells?)
There are a number of these written into the complaint. And the reason they are "poison pills" in my estimation is because it will be hard for the individual defendants to argue a completely different point of view from that which the government has alreayd taken and, in a few cases, the poison pill arguments are in the form of a "when did you stop beating your wife" sort of construction. That is going to be a very interesting maneuver for defense counsel in a few points. And I wanted to bring that to everyone’s attention, because I really want some thought process on the ones everyone else spots.
I hope to have a more substantial analysis for everyone tomorrow morning, likely the second thread of the day — but first, I need to re-read the Bivens case and look at a whole line of Presidential and government employee immunity issues.
…glad I stocked up on coffee…
Related posts:
- SCOTUS Denies Valerie Plame Wilson Her Day in Court
- The SEC Civil Suit Against Countrywide’s Mozilo: Why You Need to Know About “Parallel Proceedings”
- Breaking! Judge Walker Gets Ready to Penalize the Government in al-Haramain
- Does Lanny Breuer Have a Conflict in the Cheney Interview FOIA Case?
- Cheney’s Betrayal Made an IIPA Charge for Libby Possible





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Christy
I just sent you an email, thanks.
Well if Hope won’t say, I will!
Christy!
Fitz!
Ned!
Christy I just sent you an email. Thanks.
lol Mad Dogs…
WILSONS!
CHRISTY!
NED!
FITZ!
Colbert!
“…who was the CIA contact that fed Cheney the information on Valerie?”
I doubt that it was Tenet as dead eye and he were not on good terms, or so I’ve read.
“They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.”
__________
The Traitor in Chief:
http://www.bgladd.com/War_President/CIC.jpg
Real fucking Tough Guy.
Christy says: “Something that has been bugging me for a while, who was the CIA contact that fed Cheney the information on Valerie? (p. 8, para. h) How high did they go? Was it Fleitz — or Tenet? That would be an interesting nugget to know, wouldn’t it?”
As I read the complaint this morning, I wondered whom Cheney contacted at the CIA to obtain information about Valerie.
The key question in any Bivens case, especially in the wake of Leatherman(sp?), is how detailed the Plaintiff’s are in spelling out the facts to get over the immunities hump.
The usual difference between a civil and a criminal case is that the former has substantially less detail than the former. I would imagine give the requirements of Leatherman and who they are suing, this Complaint would be written quite differently from most civil cases.
I’ve been practicing for a decade and a half and I don’t recall too many 23 page complaints I’ve put together.
But then again, I’ve rarely sued an elected official, let alone the Vice President.
This is great – attack these pricks with their own “patriotic’ medicine. Next time Cheney pulls that “…would show we don’t have the stomach for this fight..” crap, let’s remind everyone his nickname should be Little Dicky Five-skates.
Stephen Parrish – I don’t see anything wrong with a VP asking detailed informaiton about a CIA operation. Prior to this it would never occur to me that anyone would betray the name of a case officer for political payback.
At the risk of shamelss blog whoring -
Time to make Libby and everyone around him radioactive.
Attaturk at 9 — that was my thought initially as well. And this is certainly a case that is highly charged politically, no matter which way you slice it. I’d love your thoughts on the Bivens issue as well. Mind if I shoot you an e-mail?
Nice first pass, Christy, thank you; I know you’re scrambling to stay on this for us, and it’s not easy with a preschooler. Or arthritis. You’re a real trooper.
This suit sounds political in comparison to any civil complaint because it is political; this was the motivation for the entire smear campaign, pure politics. It will be challenging to see this as anything but political because it was that way from the initial decision to go to war on Iraq and occupy it — most likely decided before 2001 or in the earliest days of the administration, and probably by Cheney.
FYI, the wingnuts are winding up the Wurlitzer, as you can see from these posts (no, I refuse to link to these f*cking morons, I mean, these members of the Kool-Aid drinking base):
Valerie Plame’s Laughable Lawsuit – FrontPage magazine
Valerie Plame’s Lawsuit Is a Huge Mistake… For Valerie Plame – TheRealityCheck.org
Why is Valerie so Plame silly? – WorldNetDaily
Free Scooter Libby! – Investor’s Business Daily
Wilson and Plame Want Help Paying for Lawsuit – CNSNews.com
The wingnuts are trying to lay the drive behind the suit at the feet of Democrats; too bad they fail to recognize that the people they are really bashing are folks who are swing voters. Joe Wilson was hardly a partisan Democrat, just as folks in the ranks of intel like Larry Johnson aren’t.
The longer they windup the Wurlitzer, the greater the chances they will chase these swing voters to the left. Amazing how they can get all righteously pissy about a blow job but defend a REAL breach of national security, let alone one that put a mother of twins at risk. Family values my *ss.
Can *ilson or other magician look at #48 7:16am on Words of the Day/Poison Pill? It includes what I think is a not good reference to violence against high officials.
[ Done. ]
Christy -
The imbroglios surrounding Aaron Burr and Spiro Agnew notwithstanding, has a sitting vice president ever been named as a defendant in a civil suit?
Prior to the Kludge Chaos Manor fiasco re: balky CPU…
I took advantage of creating my own personal Google Homepage. Among the offerings are ‘Chimpomatic” which cycles through some of the most ‘outstanding’ quotations from out Traitor-in-Chief. This one just popped up:
(unfornately, no date/dateline citation incl.)
“We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories … And we’ll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven’t found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they’re wrong, we found them.
–George w. Bush “
—–
And yep. I too like to see the Elder’s quote getting the ball rolling up top.
Whole episode reminds me abit of one of my fave movies and characters. The Hal 9000 unit from Kubrick’s 2001. Uses nefarious means of implementing a psychotic interpretation of ‘reality’. Including deception. The “I wanna know who leaked, and they will be fired…” (paraphrased quote) makes me wanna hand the Cowboy a mirror. AND INTRUCTIONS ON USING IT.
But, speaking of mirrors, all the cloak/daggers in action are a hall of mirrors. We’ll be lucky to get one true glimpse. But it will be like lightning!
Good stuff, Christy. Keep us posted on poison pills and keep that highligher sharp.
Cant’ wait to see what FDL legal dept/staff will have to say about this matter.
I, for one, am tuned in.
I have litigated a few cases involving immunity, but nothing like this. I have a couple of reactions.
1. The Wilsons carefully chose to bring a “Bivens action” — so-named for the first Supreme Court case to recognize such claims, Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents — alleging violations of their CONSTITUTIONAL rights by individual government officials. The reason for this is that the defendant officials do not have immunity from acts causing such constitutional violations if their conduct violated “clearly established law.” In such cases, the defendant officials need not have had “actual” knowledge that they were violating Plame’s constitutional rights — Plame need only establish that a “reasonable person” in the defendants’ positions would have known that they were doing so.
2. By contrast, a suit claiming that individual government officials committed TORTIOUS acts against the Wilsons, such as intentional infliction of emotional distress, would be subject to a more stringent immunity defense — that is, they are immune if their conduct was “discretionary” and “within the outer perimeter of their governmental authority.” Such immunity applies EVEN if the discretionary authority was abused. For example, in Barr v. Matteo, a federal official charged with defamation won dismissal of the suit on immunity grounds, despite the allegation that the official’s public statements were motivated by malice.
3. It will be more difficult for the Wilson’s to establish that their CONSTITUTIONAL rights were violated. But a Bivens claim means that the defendants can’t just argue that they were acting within the “outer permiter of their official authority” when they disclosed that “Wilson’s wife” was a CIA operative.
4. The really really interesting question will be whether Cheney has been sued just because he directed Libby and/or Rove to “get the truth out” about Plame, or whether the Wilson’s think that Cheney is Novak’s “primary source.”
Jeffery Toobin this morning on CNN: This suit is half way between an law suit and a publicity stunt (or words to that effect). Well see about that, eh?
Frankly, it doesn’t matter whether the Wilson case will succeed or not, the fact of the matter is that the Bush Administration once again will be required to air its dirty laundry in public. Maybe this time SOMEONE will pay attention, as it seems like most of this country has been sleeping through this very important issue.
jeffrey toobin is a shill.
My wife and I are packing for a four-day hiking/canoeing/dog-running trip along the Denali Highway.
Watching/listening to C-SPAN/CNN/NPR this morning I’m brought back 39 years ago to the “Six-Day War,” in which Israel occupied the rump of Palestine, Sinai and Golan. My best friend and I were both in the service. We took a week of leave to boat/dive (for oysters and octopus) and fish on Hood Canal in Washington. We set up camp on a remote beach and spent a lot of time sitting next to the canal, glued to the radio, listening to the war unfold. My friend was in the navy, about to deploy on his second South China Sea tour. I was fresh out of the hospital at Fort Lewis, recovering from my 2nd helicopter crash.
Anyway, we sat and listened to the Israelis spin their side of what was going on. I was a big fan of Israel then, and continued to be until late 1982, when I met a group of Palestinian kids who had been orphaned at Shatila.
If you don’t know any Palestinians or Palestinian Americans, you should exercise an opportunity to meet some. As Rachel Corrie said, “I wish you could meet these people. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will…”
Anyway – off to hike. won’t bring a radio this time, though.
Christy at 13, go right ahead.
Bugboy -
Yeah, last night, I think it was John Dean who observed that “just getting to ‘discovery’would be a ‘win’ for the Wilsons.” (and the nation)
Edward at 21 — I’m envious of your hike in Denali. Take some good bug spray — I hear the mosquitoes are killer this time of year up there. (My husband lived in AK for several years in his high school days, and has great stories…) Stay safe, and we’ll see you Monday! (And your point on getting to know some Palestinians is right on — there are so many voices that do not get heard, and so often they are the families on all sides of the divides in the Middle East who simply want safety and hope for themselves and their children. SIGH)
Have you tried contacting Erwin Chemerinsky, the Constitutional Law scholar who is of counsel?
He just lectured for BarBri to over 10,000 people preparing to take the NY bar exam on Constitutional law. He seemed quite nice! He even provided these over 10,000 students w/ his email address. I suspect he’s accessible! His phone # was also on the press release, I think.
I can only hope there are veiled hypotheticals about Plamegate on the multistate day.
Multiple choice question for the Connecticut Bar Exam:
Sally was raped by an assailant. She walks to nearby St. Mary’s Hospital, a Catholic hospital that receives state funding. After waiting for 3 hours to be seen by the triage nurse, Sally is told that the hospital will not give her emergency contraception. Joe, the friendly and compassionate ER clerk, reassures Sally that she will be okay, because she can take a “short ride” to Secular Hospital. Secular Hospital is 27 miles away.
After walking 5 miles, incredibly distraught and embarrassed, Sally gives up and walks home.
Sally sues St. Mary’s Hospital for refusing to treat her, and for the intentional infliction of emotional distress. Can she recover?
A) No, because Secular Hospital was merely a “short ride” from St. Mary’s.
B) No, because St. Mary’s is a private organization, despite the receipt of state funds.
C) No, if St. Mary’s has a “principled reason” to deny the contraception.
D) No, because she could have made it to Secular Hospital with a little more “Joementum.”
I think the answer is probably B. I should have reviewed my con-law notes before writing this!
I practice on the civil side of things and am often in federal court. Although “notice pleading” is all that is required under the rules, there have been a number of cases where I have included a lot more detail than is necessary in the Complaint for strategic reasons. For example, I have done it in cases where I expect a lot of media attention and I want the Complaint to be more a narrative of my client’s position/story. Putting it in the complaint, I can get our side of the story out but limit direct contact with the press. Other times, I have used the detailed allegations to flush out the positions of the other side. And sometimes I do it to signal to the other side the strength of our case. I haven’t read this complaint yet, so I don’t know if any of these things are applicable. Another possible reason that occurs to me is that, given the notoriety of this case, the judge may actually read this Complaint. In a typical case, I usually assume that the Court never reads anything in the case until a Motion gets filed and some sort of action is required. First impressions can be very important in litigation, so I can see wanting to start off with a very compelling piece of storytelling. The old primacy principle of litigators!
Have a good time ET and watch out for bears!
Thanks for your words– you are right. I feel so bad right now. This is good for nobody, nobody at all. (woeful understatement, I know)
Alice Marshall says “I don’t see anything wrong with a VP asking detailed information about a CIA operation. Prior to this it would never occur to me that anyone would betray the name of a case officer for political payback.”
July 14th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Let’s look at the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, paying particular attention to 50 USC 421 (offenses covered), 50 USC 422 (permissible defenses), and 50 USC 426 (listing definitions of terms mentioned in the preceding United States Code sections I cited.
Someone else would know where to look for this: the executive order(s) and pertinent regulations germane to dissemination of classified information. On the surface, it would seem, as you mentioned, that it was all right for the Vice President to ask for detailed information about a CIA operation – but did the person from whom he obtained Valerie Wilson’s NOC status have the authority to disclose that information? The answer to that question will depend on knowing the identity of the person whom the Vice President contacted.
One more question: was information about Valerie Wilson’s NOC status obtained under color of Federal law or under color of Federal regulations?
litigatormom 9:44 am — thank you, thank you!!
The truth about Plame is that she was an NOC — “getting the truth” out certainly means disclosure of this fact, exposing her to extraordinary risk and eliminating her viability as an agent.
Would be nice to know conclusively whether certain declassifications occurred (whether within defined legal boundaries or otherwise) to augment “getting the truth out”; this would leave a nice, fat audit trail making it difficult for key members of the Gang of 13 to deny a pattern of behavior.
I’ve also wondered about another “poison pill” aspect of this case; what happens to the juror pool as this case evolves and time goes on?
In some weird and twisted way, it’s like the O.J. civil case. Hope it takes the jury just as long to come to the same conclusion.
Like all arrogant and powerful people, the whole wingnut movement is failing to read the writing on the walls.
The world is gone to shit. Hell in a handbag. A fucking madhouse. The nation is gone to shit. The economy is on a razor wire. The nation is politically divided as ever.
Yet, Bush and Rove think that because Rover may have slipped a snare that all is fine and dandy. The Celluitis Kid, the hot and tender Denny Hastert is so fucking deluded that he is babbling nonesense about INCREASING the Republican majority.
The Love Bush at All Costs wingnut media is still drinking Kool-Aid by the gallons.
But, the tough talking Bush has suddenly become Mr. Negotiator, Mr. Goodwill, Mr. Diplomat.
Can anyone say flip-fucking-flop?
Recent Kahlifawnia polling has (D)Angelides beating touchy-feely Arnie. (D)Blagojevich in Illinois screaming ahead of Topinka, even though he is under investigation. Ney losing by a mile. (D)Heath Shuler beating (R)Taylor in NC. (R) Burns in Montana wilting under (D)Tester. (D) Spitzer in NY ahead by 50%. Grassroots Dem. Deval Patrick in Mass leading in his primary and leading in the general. Katherine Harris in Florida as a national laughing stock. Ann Coulter unable to raise a Goddamn penny in Colorado, home of far-right Christian movement.
Now we are on the way to $80 dollars a barrel of oil and $4.00 for a gallon of gas.
The classic “they won’t know what hit them” is the operative mantra.
Let them continue with the happy talk. Talk ain’t truth.
-GSD
“Just getting to ‘discovery’would be a ‘win’ for the Wilsons.”
But I heard that the judge drawn by the Wilsons is a Shrub appointee. Anybody know for sure? If so, getting to discovery could be a miracle.
Redd,
Thanks. I wish I could put a bag of Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee in the teletransporter for ya, as I can see you’ve got a lot of writing to do over the weekend. Can’t wait to catch up.
We do bugspray and netting in a major way. We’ve even got some new stuff we’re going to try on Strider the pup.
Rayne 14 – they are driving even staunch republican career military officers away by defending the outing of a CIA officer. Combine this with blowing off Geneva and I can’t figure out who is still supporting junior and cabal…
Birdman 10:01 am — I had hoped staunch Republican career military officers would already have fled their party affiliation because of this administration’s persistent reliance on incompetent civilian management over seasoned, decorated, and ranking members of the military.
Shinseki, for example.
Tim Grieve pointed this out, LOL! -
_____
…Robert Luskin on the lawsuit…: “The allegations are without merit. We may comment further when we have an opportunity to review the complaint.”
_____
What? is this dude Karnac reincarnated?
The Wilson Plame support website is experiencing trouble because of a very high number of donations.
That’s the kind of problem to have!
I live in a neighborhood in which many of the small businesses are owned by Arab Americans. My favorite family is a Lebanese family who owns a small laundramat. The husband’s family lost a prosperous family business during the Lebanese civil war, and finally made it here where he has been painstakingly rebuilding his life, starting out as a NY city cab driver in which he lived on virtually nothing for years while he saved to buy his current business. Now he and his wife work something like 60 hours in the laundramat. They have 3 children who are looked after much of the time by the wife’s mother. They also spend a great deal of time in the laundramat with their parents and are well loved by all the customers.
I have never met a family that is kinder or more hard working. They are no in agony worring about their family in Beirut — all of whom are trying to figure a way to get our of the city but which is not easy since many of the surrounding roads have already been bombed by the Israelis. Btw – these people are quite secular and have not love for hezbollah, but they cannot figure out what good it will do to destroy Beirut (again!) over the kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers.
Meanwhile, the right is beating the war drum once again for war with Syria, war with Iran, war with anyone, just more war.
I am curious as to how Joe L will try to spin this in terms of his re-election bid — Jane, any thoughts?
OT …egegious your 15 @9:42
Just curious….I looked @ that comment
WT?
Larry
Rayne – many have fled, but it is almost bred in to some of them to be rethug at all costs. It is even stronger amongst the academy graduates.
It’s not summary judgment they need to survive; it’s dismissal for failure to state a claim for which relief can be granted. Surviving to the point where you would argue summary judgment motions would be a HUGE victory, because summary judgment issues arise AFTER discovery has been completed. I think if the Wilsons get this case through discovery, that will be worth more to them than whatever money they could get.
I think that some of this stuff as stated doesn’t look strong enough to survive a motion to dismiss, but if they characterized the issues a little differently, it might be stronger.
Some of the constitutional claims state the constitutional protections as I would like them to be, but not really as courts have construed them.
The constitutional right to privacy isn’t like the complaint says it is. The constitutional right to privacy prevents governemnt interference in affairs essential to conducting your life, mainly restricting the government from limiting how you can run your family and how you can conduct yourself in your home. This publication of private facts is common-law privacy, not constitutional privacy. And is the fact of Ms. Wilson’s CIA status something that belongs to HER? Doesn’t it belong to the GOVERNMENT?
Unless I’m very much mistaken, there isn’t any fifth amendment equal protection right; that comes from the 14th amendment. That’s trivial, and easily correctable, but sloppy.
Why did she quit her job? Was she making the same money as before? If so, courts have not traditionally held that someone in a position like that, who kept her job, kept the same money, but was limited in some nonoppressive way as to what she could do, has suffered any loss. The loss would be the government’s.
I think the key is, a bunch of government officials used their offices and their access to classified information to knock around a citizen and government employee. I’d look at it in that way, cast it in terms of stuff for which you can more easily get damages than this constitutional stuff that doesn’t really have any damages attached to it, and throw in defamation, which appears to have occurred in abundance.
The constitutional stuff is interesting, but I don’t think the courts have typically construed the constitutional issues quite that way.
BobbyG-
Luskin’s obviously an alum of the Gonzo/Yoo School of ScoffLaw.
I read that this is the judge for the Wilson’s civil suit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Bates
I very much appreciate the Wilson suit news.
However, this is just a dust mote in the morning sun. There’s only one important story today, one that we’ll be telling for the rest of our lives if we’re lucky enough to grow old, and some of my favorite blogs are still ignoring it.
Christy, on your comment on the previous blog – yes the Middle East situation embraces many, many shades of grey (i.e. it is not exclusively black/white). However, Israel was a key part of why the U.S. went into Iraq (costing us nearly half a trillion dollars, and the killing and maming of hundreds of thousands of U.S. and Iraqi citizens). Now as we try to address this currently horrendous situation in the Middle East, my fear is that Israel’s over the top response to a Palestinian terrorist act has been fermented in part to draw us directly (militarily)into Syria and/or Iran – thus forcing our hand to continue and indeed increase our currently bankrupt mid-East policy and to provide an active war situation that the Bush administration can use both to suppress opposition further(press and otherwise) and to help them in the November elections (the July-Sept surprise). In short, some times what appears to be grey can be something else as well. As with the Lieberman issue, we need to be able to thoughtfully address this on the left without accusations (veiled or real) of being anti-Israel or anti-Semitic.
In order for Mrs. Wilson to claim that she suffered a Fifth Amendment loss, does she not also have to prove that she had a “property interest” in her job? This may only go to one of the claims, but its seems like a hurdle of some significance.
Under what conditions is it acceptable to bomb:
(1) A major international airport
(2) Families on the beach.
Just wondering.
—————-egregious
Thanks TeddySanFran (#42).
John D. Bates IS a Shrub appointee. According to Wikipedia, as a District Court Judge, Bates dismissed the GAO’s effort to learn with whom Cheney’s energy task force conferred.
Those two things make me less hopeful that the WIlsons will get to the discovery stage. (Hope I’m wrong.)
I hope someday we can get to the point that we realize we are all human beings first and foremost, and celebrate our cultures and differences, not destroy them in them in a lethal game of one-up-manship.
To Rosh (40). I suspect the reason the Due Process Clause of the Fifth-and not the Fourteenth-Amendment is implicated here is because its the actions of the federal government at issue. I believe that’s also why this is Bivens claim, and not a claim brought under 42 USC 1983 (The Civil Rights Act).
Larry at 38, just asking for someone above my pay grade to see if that comment crosses a blog policy iirc not to advocate violence against high government officials. It makes the Secret Service unhappy.
“if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.”
First time in his life Shrubster wasn’t lying, they all were taken care of,… and quite well at that…nothing happened to any of them except for one fall guy libby who will prolly be pardoned by gwb.
Lastly, political operatives connected to the senior administration officials….could that mean Novak…I certainly consider him to be a political operative (certainly way more than I do a journalist) and he is very well connected to many senior administration officials. Could it mean Ms. Miller too?
Which is the truth?
Family bombed by Israelis on public beach, or
(Non-Israeli) mine explosion on beach kills family?
I heard the bomb version first, then the mine version.
GSD, “Talk ain’t truth” is right. But they think they can create their own reality.
They’re funny that way.
This John D. Bates may have to manipulate and rewrite alot of previous thinking/writing/opinion to throw out the suit. He wa a player in Whitewater ‘investigation’, after all.
But, he did can the GAO look into Cheney’s Energy Task Force, so…
—-
Can Wilson’s appeal a dismissal? If so, where?
Eric says
July 14th, 2006 at 10:17 am
In order for Mrs. Wilson to claim that she suffered a Fifth Amendment loss, does she not also have to prove that she had a “property interest” in her job? This may only go to one of the claims, but its seems like a hurdle of some significance.
______
Civil servants were long ago deemed to have just such a “property interest” in their jobs. I can’t recall the cases, but a LONG time ago I recall reading a Harper’s article about it, wherein it reviewed precedent case law findings, i.e., that your civil service protected government job essentially became your “property” just like your house or car or boat – requiring full due process for messing with it. Which is why poor federal employees are rarely fired, they typically get transferred sideways to be foisted off on others.
re eric at 10:17 (45)
WAG: Would a NOC have an income stream from the cover company (Brewster-Jennings)? If Brewster-Jennings got rolled up due to Novak’s column, and the income from the company’s activities was no longer available, in a narrow way this would be a loss for Ms. Plame, wouldn’t it?
Presumably, these “front companies” have to show some legitimacy in their daily business lives, although from the stories about Rendition Air that have aired on “60 Minutes” the trail goes cold rather quickly. But I wonder, does Ms. Plame have an actual loss that can be demonstrated based on the exposure of her NOC identity? What if she was an owner-principle in B-J, and her mortgage eligibility was dependent on that income? Is that a “property interest”?
Or would a NOC turn over any income from the front company to her real employer, the CIA? Presumably, one shouldn’t benefit from one’s CIA employment.
Although, some have.
IANAL, etc.
fubar has an iconic picture up at Needlenose that pretty much says it all. You’ll know which one it is.
http://www.needlenose.com/index.php
Judge Bates also appointed in 3/06 to the FISA court by Chief Justice Roberts.
Misery, thy name is Bates.
last night there was speculation that the case would go to Reggie Walton (sp?) because it is related to the Libby criminal case.
If and when Joe Wilson is deposed won’t he have to name all his sources of information?
These claims seem grounded in law to me Mary Rosh at 40. I’m just a simple country lawyer but a successful motion to dismiss seems very unlikely to me. I think Eric at 49 has it right with regard to the Fifth Amnndment claim. But I also think the way the complaint is drafted is to use the private cause of action as a forum for a public airing of an egregious act. The Wilsons are pleading the case not only to the jury but also the court of public opinion which I think is legitimate. I’m glad its heading in that direction. Also the burden of proof is not the stringent “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard.
Has George Bush changed his name to John Doe?
TeddySanFran @ 42 — Yikes, that sounds like the guy’s just about the worst possible judge for this case.
Delurking to say: The whole lot of you are awesome. You help me pretend to be smart to my friends.
Hezbollah says headquarters destroyed in airstrike
http://www.pjstar.com/stories/……017.shtml
Via Raw Story.
vote for Petro
and your little dog, too — I also heard an NGO representative say that the explosion on the beach was not consistent with a mine but with a bomb.
BobbyG — in regards to “property rights”, I think the risk involved with NOC status implies a degree of investment above and beyond mere employment, but IANAL and don’t know whether there is precedent to support this angle. Once her status had been disclosed, her viability in any role within intelligence was gone — and her risk and that of her family was exponential. In other words, the Wilsons did not only have an investment in the role, but are continuing to suffer losses not in strictly economic terms.
Chimp makes baby cry.
I’ll repeat my question from TP. If Chimpy gets raptured in the Second Coming, will he leave behind his hurdy-gurdy and his little chimp hat with the chin strap?
-GSD
ron — damn, the elections WERE stolen. NOBODY elected “John Doe”!!!
I did hear that it was most likely a bomb fired by the Israelis and not old ordinance or a left over mine.
-GSD
As others have noted, in a case like this the first hurdle is typically surviving a Motion to Dismiss. The standard for such a Motion is assuming all of the allegations of the complaint are true, does the plaintiff have a cause of action as a matter of law. For some reason, I am enjoying the prospect of watching the defense lawyers have to operate under that assumption.
Alice at 11:
Stephen Parrish – I don’t see anything wrong with a VP asking detailed informaiton about a CIA operation. Prior to this it would never occur to me that anyone would betray the name of a case officer for political payback.
As I understand it (IANACIAO?), agent identities, among other things, are always compartmentalized on a very strict “need to know” basis. This isn’t because intel agencies believe there’s ill will on the part of other government officials, but because the more people know something, the more likely it is that someone will slip up and the information will fall into the hands of the wrong people.
So even if you don’t have reason to expect betrayal, the VP trying to find out operational details would be very unusual and unnecessary. Only an arrogant and micromanaging VP would believe that knowing their identities would make him better able to judge their work than just having the results and supporting information they present.
That’s what’s wrong with it.
the guitarist for LA punk band “X” is named John Doe. Never took him to be a right wing political operative,however.
The interesting thing about the Israeli response is that they have suffered many a non-military attack. Lots and lots of terrorist attacks.
Yet, it was the attacks on their military, a legitimate target in a war, that has provoked this response.
Strange days indeed.
-GSD
I was just thinking. If, as it has been maintained in this thread, that the Wilsons aren’t really after monetary gain here, but just getting some of the truth in what really happened out into the light of day, isn’t the statement that this is “half a lawsuit and half a political stunt” sort of a true statement? I suppose you could argue about the meaning of the word “stunt”. That makes it sound pretty sophmoric and totally without merit. But if this case isn’t about the money, then it is something less than just a straight civil case.
Isn’t it?
Man, I have never been in a place with so many lawyers at one time. This is majorly impressive, if not a bit scary.
Excellent point jhc at 71. There probably won’t be a motion to dismiss. Rather I would think there are going to be a slew of motions for protective orders citing executive privilege and ironically the need to preserve secrecy for national security reasons.
Thanks for the always great insight, Christy – it’s so wonderful to have a place to go to find this kind of analysis.
Am having one of those days where things are happening from all quarters, you know – work, so all I’ve had time for is to read the complaint and listen to the presser.
The complaint seems to be a pretty loaded shot across the bow of more than one ship – these things are usually so dry as to require copious amounts of caffeine, but there’s a novel-like quality to this one that makes it pretty easy to read.
Will look forward to more analysis from Christy and the rest of the lawyers here in the coming days.
My feeling is that the man who faced down Saddam and the woman who was covert at the CIA are not going to go quietly, and are not afraid of these yahoos – not one whit. The Wilsons are real people with real experience facing real dangers, not desk jockeys who think power substitutes for courage.
From BBC – Olmert’s regime now talking up Syria and Iran as the next target – “merely the finger on the bloodstained and long-reaching arms of Syria and Iran”.
Shrub on-responsive
The FIFTH is absolutely the proper Due Process right. the 14th Applied the Fifth Amendment to the States, that’s why 1983 claims always use the 14th for Due Process, but look at the Amendments the Fifth is more than just preventing self-incrimination.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Now notice the relevant portion of the 14th:
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…
The lawyer in this case has undoubtedly practiced many more Bivens cases than I have here in the midwest, he knows what he is doing. The Fifth provides those harmed by the Federal Goverment the same rights later provided agains t the proverbial “state actor” of 1983 cases.
zeppo — don’t let the lawyers affect you. They’re all too human like the rest of us.
Had teach one how to drink tequila, but he managed to get the hang of it pretty quickly. Too bad he was still dangerous with a mouse and never gave up his damned dictaphone addiction. Very, very human.
GSD #74 -
Actually pretty typical. States only pretend they’re protectors of the people. They’re really only about themselves.
More interesting news from KOS via Rasmussen.
(Snip)
“I can’t release numbers because they are still in the premium-subscriber-only section, but Rasmussen is about to release polls showing Whitehouse (D) leading Chafee (R) in the Rhode Island senate race, Ritter (D) leading Beauprez (R) in the Colorado governor’s race, Doyle (D) leading Green (R) in the Wisconsin governor’s race, and O’Malley (D) leading Ehrlich (R) in the Maryland governor’s race.”
-GSD
From BBC – Olmert’s regime now talking up Syria and Iran as the next target – “merely the finger on the bloodstained and long-reaching arms of Syria and Iran”.
Shrub on-responsive
Wasn’t July or August 06 when Sy Hersh predicted Bush would find a way to attack Iran?
Birdman — unresponsive? Nah. More like, “What, me worry?”
If Chimpy gets raptured in the Second Coming
[smiles at the image]
.
Petro ought to stay delurked.
Just sayin’
.
Rayne 83 – Yep, he is looking for his bike helmet
spork #86 -
Ouch. Why?
EJ Dionne at WaPo -
“…there was the delightful promise of what American success in Iraq could achieve. “Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of jihad,” Cheney said. “Moderates throughout the region would take heart, and our ability to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process would be enhanced.”
Today, with Israeli troops battling on their northern and southern borders, with Iran ignoring calls for negotiations on nuclear weapons, with Baghdad in flames and with many of Iraq’s moderates living in fear, those Cheney sentences stand as the most telling indictment of the administration’s failures.
_____
Attaturk 83, yeah I guess it’s now time for The War President to make things even worse.
Wondering if having “John Does” might be a way to put pressure on some involved or in the know to step forward before they’re dragged in.
Do those not active in but knowledgable of what was going on have any legal liability? Might trying to protect their reputation bring them forward? If you were advising them would you say “lay low” and see who gets pulled in rather than volunteering anything especially in light of the capacity of the Republican machine to destroy careers?
“delurked”, i.e. welcome, Petro!
Atta –
The 5th. was tossed-out back in the 80’s. The “Drug Wars” and all that.
The 4th. isn’t looking too healthy, either.
.
OT Glenn Greenwald has been following Arlen Specter’s attempts to amend the FISA law. It seems like old Arlen has caved as per usual with a compromise that gives the Bush Administration everything including the kitchen sink. Way to go, Arlen. We knew you had another retreat with your tail between your legs moment in you. Glenn hopes that the Democrats will get together to oppose this. He also has a few things to say about the press:
“the principal reason the Bush administration has been able to get away with the abuses it has perpetrated — is because our national media is indescribably lazy, inept, dysfunctional and just plain stupid”
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
I have to agree with Glenn on that one.
Yea, Petro!!!
spork was saying that you should keep on commenting, but used ‘de-lurking’ — which caused the confusion.
“stay delurked” = keep on commenting
(I think)
so, petro… spork was saying, “keep on commenting.”
(I think!)
so, no ouch.
Oh, I get it, spork – duh. Thanks for the heads-up, punaise. :)
…and others…
Ouch. Why?
No, I mean: keep commenting.
.
litigatormom18 – good stuff. So only have a “reasonable person” standard, and not a knowledge/intent standard? Your #2 addressed what I had been wondering about – bc a defamation count seemed like it might have been justified.
I’m thinking that, in addition to qualified immunity, the defendants will launch a failure to state a claim defense and say, “it’s all just politics, you can’t make politicking a crime.”
IOW – they’ll say that politics is all about espousing some views and trying to discredit others. So even an “attack” on the Wilsons, if it was a “political response” is just not a grounds for a claim.
I don’t think that will hold water, but I kind of expect to see it.
I don’t know who Dick Cheney will be using as his lawyer, but I believe that Yoo is available.
…but I believe that Yoo is available.
Oh Mary that’s funny, in a sick, cynical sort of way…
Glenn Greenwald has been following Arlen Specter’s attempts to amend the FISA law.
Sorry for the blogwhore but this is how seriously I take Arlen.
.
Zeppo at 74;
Roger that re so many lawyers converging to one location. Is there an ultra-low frequency that is emitted in topics like this which only lawyers can pick up?
Sy Hersh may have predicted it. I remember cutting pasting-posting here an ‘analysis’ by either Feith or Ledeen about ‘having a debate about going to war w/Iran by Sept.; the sooner the better.” a couple months ago.
Nice way to treat delurkers. :))
Do the Wilsons know who Pincus’ source was for his mid-June article? (p. 7, para. g.)
I believe Pincus has already said it was Libby.
Hey y’all, Donita Sparks’ The Spin I’m In is up on the front page, new thread poppin’!
Sisyphus says: “There probably won’t be a motion to dismiss. Rather I would think there are going to be a slew of motions for protective orders citing executive privilege and ironically the need to preserve secrecy for national security reasons.”
July 14th, 2006 at 10:45 am
Please refer to my comments linked here: http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-188681
Eric (49) I didn’t say anything about the 5th versus 14th amendment due process. The complaint states a violation of 5th amendment equal protection, but there isn’t any equal protection provision in the 5th amendment, just the 14th.
For federal government actions, due process rights do flow from the 5th amendment, not the 14th. I’m uncertain how I feel about the strength of the due process claims.
Zeppo 74
“But if this case isn’t about the money, then it is something less than just a straight civil case.”
Maybe they’re looking for Justice.
I would be.
You went into jail in the summer. It is fall now. You will have stories to cover – Iraqi elections and suicide bombers, biological threats, the Plame civil suit and the Iranian nuclear program.
I added the line about the Plame civil suit.
oh, and -ck-, I wanted to take a moment to compliment you on your quite fashionable dash-y little wings, which I remember you added for search purposes. They are rather fetching….
How about me Teddy? Do you like my new ear muffs?
thank you, TeddySanFran –
actually, it goes with my new hairdo — an anti-mohawk. shaved on the top of my head, bushy over the ears . . .
quite fetching, although kind of bozo-ishy . . .
ayld,t @109: No, I totally agree with you. I wasn’t questioning that. I was just musing on the concept of someone on CNN calling this “half a lawsuit and half a political stunt”. If the point is to get the truth out, no matter if they actually “win” or not, then I was not sure if it meant the pure definition of a civil lawsuit. End the end, a very trivial and meaningless use of my musing power. Which is normally what I am best at.
I totally agree with you about the justice aspect. This discussion of getting past the motion to dismiss has me a bit worried, tho.
John from el norte at 43 — you know what? You want coverage of some unnamed issue, you can start your own goddamn blog. I take huge amounts of time away from my family to produce the bits that I get time to do here. And I try to cover areas in which I have some expertise or knowledge. Neither I nor Jane is some sort of one-size-fits-all wire service, nor do we want to be. And I’ll thank you to remember that.
This is exhausting, grueling work that we do seven days a week because it needs to be done. We work our asses off — Jane is covering things in Connecticut because they needed to be covered (even in the wake of her mother’s passing) and I’m covering the Wilson suit because…well, I don’t even have to explain why, because it’s my damn article.
There are a lot of horrible things going on in this world of ours at any given time. As it is, I got about 6 hours of sleep last night because I was doing legal research and working on the analysis of this one legal complaint. And I was up early and working again this morning. I tire of having to explain this to people, but this is a full time job and then some, and if I’m not doing it to your satisfaction, the internet is full of many other sources of information — some of which have expertise in the very areas which interest you today.
Be kind of fun to have a party and play pin the name on the John Doe.
-ck -
Glad everyone likes your new makeover.
@ccmask@ that’s definitely you.
Reasons for filing are not always about $$ amount.
Often for defamation they mostly include getting the record straight – there are, sometimes, big awards, but a lot of time the correction, retraction, apology etc.and equalized attention to that aspect is just as important.
I do think there will be a failure to state claims motions – because that greases the Wurlitzer and is consistent with the “can’t make politics criminal” theme they keep raising for Libby.
Can’t make it criminal – can’t make it unconstitutional or tortious.
Of course, that doesn’t go to say there won’t be dismissal motions for State Sec. claims too. I really do think they need to go solicit Yoo’s insight – that petulantly piqued footstomp of, “with one sentence Congress can overrule Hamdan” proves to me that he is a vastly underutilized talent.
Zeppo 114
So we are left with deciding if Toobin’s characterization has any merit or if he just pulled it out of his a**.
I believe it’s the latter. :)
I’m gonna go into the catering business. I see lots of $500 per plate dinners coming up soon.
P.S. in need of a recipe for rubber chicken….microwave-able if possible.
Wonderful comments, everyone. I’ve worked defense litigation matters in Federal Court for a very long time now, but even I had to dust off the AmJur2d to remind myself what a Bivens action entailed. Now my brain hurts!
But if Scooter’s attorneys are worth their massive retainers, they will immediately file a stay on the Wilson Complaint until the Libby litigation wends its way through the court. We may not see any progress or discovery on this new action for a very long time. I don’t have the patience anymore to wait for the Cabal Of Evil to get their just desserts, dammit!
I see lots of $500 per plate dinners coming up soon.
Snort!
The Sixth Defense.
Christy,
There was some interesting discussion in “Joseph and Valerie Wilson Sue Cheney, Libby and Rove” remarks at Talkleft yesterday. I am not a lawyer but from the remarks many were saying, some very deep thoughts were being put forth several others.
note to self:
1) Add Mrs. Smith to the list of people never to piss off…right after Ms. Hamsher.
CherKell 121
Of course, that stay might only go so far as the day after the mid-term elections, if that’s when the Skate King pardons Libby.
You have to admit that while Dubya may not be nuanced enough to have come up with it on his own, will be taken care of is open for interpretation ;)
T-says: Thanks for the compliment but I returned them. They were giving me a headache.
Christy: As you say, there are many other blogs out there for whatever anyone is searching for. They have them for Ceramics, fixing toilets and even blogs that are used for keeping Republicans in office.
I want to to know that I for one appreciate everything that you and Jane do, and I know that I don’t tell you enough how much I appreciate it. You do an awesome job and I honestly don’t know how you do it. Last night, I tried to stay up because I thought I would miss this here post, but I was able to fall asleep because nobody was waiting on me.
I wish I lived next door to you because if I did, I would clean your house, wash your car and cook your meals just to thank you for the posts you deliver every day. And I mean that. Thanks to both of you!
Mary, that’s a wicked zinger about Yoo being available as counsel for Shooter.
Did you by chance hear NPR’s interview a day ago (Steve Inskeep/Morning Edition) with Yoo?
Yoo Downplays Importance of Supreme Court Ruling
He sounded like an intelligent and reasonable guy, except for his spin about Common Article 3 being so ambiguous.
I’d like to see someone respond to the Neo whack-jobs like Yoo and their hypotheticals about the Geneva Convention being so vague by stating the common sense standard for determining what is acceptable and what is not is: Would subjecting an American POW to stress positions, extremely loud music, stripping them and exposing them to intense heat and cold, ect., ect., ect., be acceptable under Common Article 3?
OkiDave
{{{{{ Applause for CHS!!! }}}
Well-deserved. I noted somebody’s website didn’t cover that very, very important topic…whatever it is besides the tanking of our democracy and those overseas.
T- at 125 — sorry to vent it right out in the comments, but I was royally pissed, having spent the last two days working my ass off and having not even had time for a shower as yet today…and then to be castigated for not blogging properly…well, that was pretty much the last straw. (Note to self: cut back on the caffeine…)
chs @ 116 — you go girl!
which reminds me: pymwyea
Always a good click on a Friday.
oops my linky didn’t work. I was trying to point out the PayPal contribution button at the top right here.
:red face:
with regard to comment 14.
Mrs. Wilson looks so good in white.
Mrs. Wilson has worn white in the photos that I have seen of her public appearances.
The wife of the man who wore a noose for a necktie while he defended those he sheltered from Saddam (thereby winning the admiriation of poppy Bush)wears white in her public appearances.
This couple is a smart and classy duo.
A picture is worth 1000 words.
CHS – no explanation necessary to me or anyone else for that matter.
You, as always, were right on point.
Just sorry you had to waste your energy on it.
I echo ccmask who says it a lot better than I could.
We appreciate you more than you’ll ever know.
Find out what brand of coffee Ms. Smith is drinking and order a case for all my other commentators!
“if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.”
I didn’t know Chimpy had the capacity for snark.
Christy (and Jane) – what ccmask says # 127. Since I’m several thousand miles away, I couldn’t come over and wash cars, take out the trash or whatever. But I damn sure would if I could. If you need a bottle of habu sake or something from Okinawa, just let me know, OK?
FDL is just a joy to read everyday for me — thanks very much for the tremendous effort you put in and the outstanding output you achieve.
OkiDave – did you ever have a chance to read the New Yorker article on Alberto Mora?
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/…..227fa_fact
It’s not even “just” the things that were listed, but the fact that time periods and combinations were so up for grabs. Even I hadn’t thought of some of the problems he raised, and I was upset without those aspects.
There’s also an interesting bit in that article about the fact that things being done violated UCMJ separate and apart from Article 3 – but if people conspired to pre-authorize that, then ?????? somehow it became ok.
Sad stuff. WHen you read it, realize that Haynes (mentioned in the Article) is up for appointment to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals – lifetime appointment.
WIth Judges like that – who needs SS?
What I really enjoyed about Keith Olberman last night is that he went right to the Wilson story.
The other channels were solid war, bombs and red glares of rockets and the prez eating at his feast.
Usually, the MSM avoids talk about Israel! I cannot wait until John Does have been named!
Mary, yes I did, and I saved that article in my personal archives I’ve been keeping on this and other topics.
Mora is another American hero. Haynes is another NeoCon POS. I just hope that someday the heros are all recognized, and the POS’ are flushed into the sewer where they belong.
Just to echo what Christie said earlier about the John Does, in a civil case, a John Doe is a placeholder–it is to make sure you can add someone else as a defendant if in the course of the litigation, you discover an additional defendant. Because you name already included that person as a John Doe, the claim relates back to the date of filing and you don’t have a statute of limitations problem. The plaintiff’s attorney doesn’t necessarily have to have a particular person in mind to include a John Doe–so it is entirely possible that no “John Doe” will ever be named. It’s more of a safety net for potential defendants–not an attempt to shield a person’s identity.
Still OT – but OkiDave, if you are interested here’s a link to a rawstory excerpt
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0714.html
on Rumsfeld. He may finally have to respond to a subpoena about tactics involving kidnap and mistreatment of family member to “break” detainees who were “terror suspects” (although some of the stories I heard involved Iraqi regular army).
The poor kid (he seemed so young to me at least) who came forward on some of this stuff has been through so much. HIM – he gets the shaft. Haynes gets a 4th Cir nomination.
Congress has demanded that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld hand over a raft of documents to Congress that could substantiate allegations that U.S. forces have tried to break terror suspects by kidnapping and mistreating their family members. Rumsfeld has until 5 p.m. Friday to comply.
It now appears that kidnapping, scarcely covered by the media, and absent in the major military investigations of detainee abuse, may have been systematically employed by U.S. troops.
One problem was that “sourcing” for who were the bad guys was being done through biased sources, without any evaluation by anyone of the impact of sectarian hatred on the value of the informatio they were being given.
This just posted to E&P
Attorney Explains Why Reporters Not Targeted In ‘Plame’ Lawsuit
http://www.editorandpublisher……1002839788
I need to save it too – I’ve probably googled for it a hundred different times.
take care
Christy at 131, I don’t participate in the dialogue much but I want you to know that your efforts are very much appreciated. Thanks also to Mary. And thanks to jhc at 142, dead on, I was going to clarify that very point, if during the course of discovery another culpable party is ascertained, W, er, that person can be substituted as a named party and won’t have the statute of limitations as a defense.
What are the chances of Team Wilson asking the judge to recuse himself? He seems a little too cozy with BushCo to render justice impartially, so for the sake of the case it would be best if he stepped aside.
OT response – thanks Mary, and no, I hadn’t seen this.
I keep reflecting in between my periods of intense anger over the daily unfolding lunacy of BushCo and the cabal that when this crew of Bush, Shooter, Rummy, et al, finally return to private life, they will be hounded from all sides for the rest of their lives for what they have done. I personally get some small satisfaction on that thought, because they deserve that small indignity, and a lot more.
I hope that someday in say, 2009-2010, Rummy gets arrested as he transits some European airport, and ends up in the Hague.
Got to stop now and get a few hours of zzzs – returning thread back to topic. Thanks all, and have a good day back in the States.
Recusal is very unlikely. If I recall correctly, the standard requires a showing of a particular bias against a party (not just a political inclination) and the judge makes the call him or herself. I wouldn’t rule out the “related case” transfer though. I’ve used that before with success. A lot of times, judges don’t want these high profile cases, so they are happy to transfer the case to another judge who is already familiar with the particular case/issues.
Christy says:
Sanctimony trolls oughta go paddle some other creek. We likes de lake just fine.
Thanks Christy and Jane…we can never say this enough.
OkiDave…and my fervent hope is that all these frickin’ war profiteers have their ill-gotten stock optioned Halliburton and other assets seized by judgements to pay their account due to the Wilsons and their trust fund for public accountability.
First and foremost, FDL rocks my world on an ongoing basis. I ended up making this my first look blog because of Christy’s always intriguing legal analyses. I stay for the rest of the crew who are also great. ;)
That said, I wonder about the timing of this case being brought. I had read speculation in the past that the Wilsons were holding off on any civil litigation to stay out of the way of the Fitzgerald investigation. Do any of the lawyers here have any insight into whether that seem reasonable and if so why they’ve decided to go forward now? Is this at all tangled up with a statute of limitations issue? Will the progress of this case affect Fitz and team’s investigation at all (positively or negatively)?
CJ #126: While “will be taken care of” is certainly open to interpretation, it seems to me that there’s video of the actual press exchange in which dumbya uttered that statement – and I believe there was a follow-up question, something like:
“So, you would fire anyone who was caught leaking?”
To which chimpy replied in the affirmative.
That’s not the exact quote, but I think the media person who asked the question got the necessary clarification about what the “will be taken care of” meant. Now, if I could only find that video clip…
cali 11:52 — wow, thanks for that link to E&P, that wasn’t just any attorney. That’s Erwin Chemerinsky, the same one “Ben” cites up thread.
[begin rant] As much fun as Donita is, I’m not in the mood; I keep checking back here to see if more meat turns up. Unlike certain other commenters who will remain nameless, I came to the Lake because of its insightful, thought-provoking coverage of the CIA Leak scandal; it has pissed me off to no end to think the White House is populated by universal fascists who believe their ends justify their means, that our democracy is a floor mat on which they can wipe our feet. In doing so, they make it clear that they have no respect for anyone or anything save for their own needs and interests. That ethic or lack thereof is the core of all problems with this administration and the resulting cascade of domestic and international problems we now face.
I guess I’m just not in the mood for fun right now, would like to see those wronged get their pound of flesh. And now. [end rant]
Maybe later tonight after a couple stiff cocktails I’ll check and see what goodies Donita and the gang left in the thread, after I’ve regained my sense of humor.
Matchstick -
I think popular consensus is statute of limitations. 3 years is today.
Hey Jane — in case you’re checking in…here’s an interesting bit you might want to watch.
http://www.smartmobs.com/archi…..ipedi.html
Wiki Politics — cool idea. In some ways, it is the fleshing out in a standard format some of the discussions we have here.
Maybe an FDL wiki could be a nice way to get the ball rolling, and then cross-pollinate into the neutral Wiki Politics.
Someone upthread mentioned that the stay on this complaint would be lifted as soon as Bush pardons Libby after the midterms. Might this in fact kill Scooter’s pardon – a fitting application of the law of unintended consequences!
BTW Cheney would never have Yoo as his defense counsel – he’d want a REAL lawyer….
From TPMuckraker, the media they loves some blonde in the summer:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001137.php
Valerie wowed ‘em. Turdblossom, Dead Eye, Scooter et al, the game’s afoot.
McGee — hence, “poison pill”. Heh.
McGee 158
That’s an intriguing thought.
Let’s see – - have the veep testify under oath on a narrow case or
make everybody we know vulnerable to discovery and testifying.
That’s a tough one.
Christy at 131, I appreciate your analysis on these very complicated issues. Anybody who wants to complain that their issue isn’t being covered, well, that’s what Google is for.
Thanks for all your efforts and the time you put into all this.
hey christy, just want to thank you for your hard work on this one.
**A question. Has anyone here discussed the possibility that Condoleezza Rice is the original leaker? She was in it up to her frowning eyebrows. I’ve seen speculation that Richard Armitage was the first source because his name “fit” the blank space in a court filing. Well,
Richard Armitage
Condoleezza Rice
Just asking…
There’s another reason for pleading useful Libby criminal case facts in the complaint. If the criminal case goes to trial before the civil case (which it undoubtedly will, assuming it doesn’t get knocked out on a mot. to dis. or SJ), and Libby is convicted, the Wilsons may be able to use facts established against Libby in the criminal case as a matter of law, i.e., Libby won’t be able to re-contest, at the civil trial, facts established at the criminal trial. The reasons for this take up several weeks in Civ Pro class in law school, but are based on the greater burden of proof at the criminal trial, beyond a reasonable doubt vs. the “preponderance of the evidence” in a civil trial.
Swopa at 106 — I thought Libby was only a source for part of the information and we had a hanging source out there…but i could be wrong. (Dang, where ARE those notes?!?…)
Christy
Indeed, kudos for all of your hard work. Oftentimes the more we accomplish the more people expect of us. Nobody asks the slacker for help because as we all know, they all work at Home Depot and you can’t get a real answer out of anyone…but I digress.
Take time for yourself Christy. Take a shower. Play with the Peanut. As you will remember, when Jane was indisposed, everyone gave her slack and pitched in to help. I know YOU were carrying the water for FDL, but now if you need to step back some, then do so. You cannot give if you have no reserve. And the parrafin bath thing is GREAT for arthritis
(my hands too)
If I broke any blog ettiquette, please know it is inadvertant.
Rayne @ 158 like the idea.
Guess this is as an appropriate place as any to launch a trial balloon for site enhancements…Deep in the EPU zone. Someone will see it eventually.
I try to download this site on a handheld sometimes and all of the killer graphics and blogroll really eat up the bandwidth.
- I wonder if there is a way to have a low-bandwidth site that mirrors this one? It will help the dial-uppers as well. How ’bout it?
Bueller? Bueller?
Constitutional Scholar Jonathan Turley remarks on the case:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/co…..ves_office
Question for Christy: Will this civil case be effected in any way by a likely Libby pardon? If not, congratulations. Great move by the Wilsons and probably the biggest victory of all.
When it comes to legal stuff my head usually hits the keyboard pretty quick, although I may wake rested after some hours, occasionally there is an alphabet stuck to my nose. This does not happen when I read the deciphering of Christy and thanks to her for that.
T at 169
Can’t you get low bandwidth w/o graphics on the old archive site? I googled Jane and got a link there that is very different from here.
I really know nothing and should just continue reading…
Just a thought regarding the judge being a bush appointee: I dont practice in federal court, or do civil suits- but was wondering if the assignment of the case to this particular judge could result in the wilson’s filing a motion to substitute judge (or the judge recusing himself/herself) citing the possibility of a conflict or whatever relevant rules there are. Isn’t it possible (or likely) that a lawsuit against the VP’s office may require discovery of the office of the Prez as well – - or if one of the defendants, high ranking officials in the Bush administration and or John Doe’s in the executive branch were to claim to be acting on orders of the Prez (secret presidential order or something) as a possible defense – that a conflict could theoretically arise?
This could be done before any substantive motions (i.e, failure to state a claim, immunity) are ruled on to avoid any appearance of bias?
First, a plaintive request for the good folk of FDL: Please stop echoing Tom DeLay’s talking points. Please do not assume that a judge is a political hack who will ignore the law just because he was appointed by a Republican. Please do not assume that a judge who decided a case in favor of extending the deliberative privilege to Cheney — a decision that, according to SCOTUS, was correct — will suddenly abandon principle when deciding the quite different issues involved in the Wilson case. Please stop it.
Second, the pundits who say that Bivens only applies to cops don’t know what they are talking about. This includes Jeff Toobin, who I suppose should be forgiven for not being an expert on everything, but not for being unwilling to acknowledge that when he’s asked to opine on a case five minutes after he’s skimmed the complaint. By now, I trust he’s read Harlow v. Fitzgerald. There will, however, be some interesting tussles over qualified immunity for Rove and Libby, and I would anticipate a knock down drag out over whether the Vice President is more like a Cabinet official or Presidential adviser (qualified immunity) or the President (absolute immunity, folks, so don’t hold your breath waiting for one of those Does to have Dubya’s name on it.)
T — wow, good question, I don’t know about the download thing. Two solutions come to mind. First, try an aggregator that pulls text (graphics optionally). The other, depending on capabilities of your device and browser, might be to view source rather than view the page since the source may pull up faster than all the graphics.
I lean towards the aggregator concept. Bloglines has a mobile option; depending on whether you’re in the market for mobile mail, you could try Portable Thunderbird and use the RSS/Atom newsreader option.
As for the FDL wiki — we tossed a mess of ideas around in April around the issues of getting newbies up to speed. A wiki could do that, provide an FAQ that could be maintained by users, along with a timeline for stuff like the CIA Leak case and a space for issue compilation. DKosopedia is pretty good, but doesn’t have the je ne sais quoi of FDL. ;-)
After reading Christy’s comments to what’s-his-name who thought he could order posts like the managing editor of a newspaper, and thinking about how much I rely on FDL for spot-on analysis and insight – together with it being the first payday since I got my raise – I thought it a perfect time (if not long past due) to make a contribution to this wonderful place. I wish it could be more…
Wee! More Plameology, I was going through serious withdrawal…..
more light reading for the weekend (Plame Suit 23 pages, backlogged FDL, 100 pages). what fun!
Barbara, i think we were typing our respective posts at the same time, or you are extremely fast typer. I am not arguing that this judge would rule any differently because he owes his/her current job to this administration. Often times even the appearance of a potential future conflict, in a case such as this, is enough to cause people to play it safe.
Hell, in IL criminal cases, a defendant (note its criminal and its not the plaintiff) can substitute a judge as a matter of right, with or without a reason. I dont expect similar rules to be in play in a civil suit in a federal court- but i can see how if the judge were a recent appointment by this Prez, it would be different than him being appointed by any other republican (BUSH I or Reagan for example). Given the media attention, etc…sometimes it justs easier to play it safe for the sake of the system. That’s all.
Although strong arguments can be made that it is silly to not think of the political nature of federal lifetime appointments, given their inescapable and inherently political source, and given the political nature of the current suit…
T- I just tried the Bloglines mobile, albeit on my desktop. The site downloads only the pic that is posted with each entry and none of the ads, header, navbar etc. Will be faster, but you’ll have to click again to pull comments and it takes you to the full site.
Might take some further experimentation, I’m afraid.
Christy – Your ability to bring this arcane legal stuff into a layman’s perspective is extremely valuable. You’re the best – thank you!
Thanks for looking into that Rayne.
You lost me early on. I’m no techie.
I can get the site on my blackberry sometimes, but there’s a lot of stuff to fight through, blogroll, FUBAR purchasing opportunities and the like.
I’d love to just have the text pop up and I’d be on my way. I’ll be on the lookout for Jamie.
Here’s on that’s off the wall…how bout a FDL Jeopardy tournament? Maybe at the next yearly kos.
Christy,
Thanks, that was very helpful.
I’ve got a question for follow-ups.
What are the rules about common defense? Can Luskin and Libby’s team and Cheney’s hack team up on this? And I presume the rules about funding still apply–that Libby can take donations for his defense, but Rove and Dick can’t?
I’ll take “regular commenters” for a thousand, Alex.
Hi emptywheel. Thanks for stopping by.
See ya’ll later. Outta here.
i’m no legal person but i know a real trooper when i find one and my hat is off to all the team at my #1 spot. ok christy take some time for yourself!! i love this blog!! i live in new jersey if you’re ever in the nabe i owe you a big ONE! so be easy lady and rest up for a bit. juslin
kdm — The link to the judge’s bio was posted closer to the beginning of the thread. He was appointed in 2001. Long history as a government lawyer under both Republican and Democratic administrations. On the Board of the Washington Lawyers for Civil Rights etc. He has a history. I just think people should check him out before making assumptions. (BTW, I have no idea what such an investigation would discover. Maybe he will turn out to be a spawn of Satan, although if he were that bad he’d probably be on a Court of Appeals by now.)
You are free to argue that all judges are political, and that the law doesn’t matter in a political case — although I’m not sure you really are arguing that. But that is exactly what Tom DeLay has been saying about the Texas state courts. I just hate to see people I like and respect bite into that apple. It feeds into a really poisonous climate for judges right now.
Christy, we’re well into EPU territory, but I just wanted to say that stories like this are the reason I come here. Thanks to the discussion here over the last year or so, I noticed a few of the things that you did when I read the filing (I was quite pleased with myself). We’re nowhere near the time when you need to dig through the pockets of your robe to find that pebble, but your work is helping us non-lawyers understand what’s going on.
Larry says: July 14th, 2006 at 10:10 am
OT …egegious your 15 @9:42
Just curious….I looked @ that comment
WT? Larry
Today is Bastille Day in France, kinda like their 4th of July. The reference you saw was to behead a French monarch today, which makes sense given the date.
Another BRAVO, CHS!
Still needing to catch up on the whole thread so this may have been noted already, but the name “Mary Rosh” (40 & 108 ^ ) rang a faint bell . . .
Yii, don’t know why that cite “rang a faint bell” didn’t “take” here as it had in Preview. Just Google “Mary Rosh,” I’m sayin’.
For another good analysis, see http://www.ctblueblog.com
Christy:
Could you address the issue of presidential pardons in civil cases? My understanding is that there is no such thing.
Could you also address what the bases for dismissal could be and how the plaintiffs might argue against that?
Despite your lack of federal civil experience we will be relying on you for your analysis.
As always, FDL (and emptywheel) will be the go-to sources for analysis in this case.
I believe this may help answer a question posed upthread:
Bolling v. Sharpe
a) Though the Fifth Amendment does not contain an equal protection clause, as does the Fourteenth Amendment, which applies only to the States, the concepts of equal protection and due process are not mutually exclusive. P. 499.
Many thanks, Christy. With regard to Christy 117, could you try farming out some of the legal research? I’ve got a Lexis Nexis subscription, Duke Law with high honors 1984, 5th Circuit clerkship, blah blah (I am not bragging, just trying to show that I may be able to do legal research). I would be happy to do whatever you want done pretty much when you want it done, unless clients have dire emergencies, which they don’t usually. Just let me know if I can help. You do so much for all of us; we need to do more for you.
To Blank Kludge 55, a dismissal could be appealed to the DC Circuit, most but not all of which is solid for W.
To EmptyWheel 184, I don’t have current information, but as of 15 or so years ago the defendants defintely could team up. I worked about then on a case where we teamed with two other defendants, very uncomfortable because their counsel had different ethical standards. We went lowest common denominator, i.e., followed the lowest standards. The little experience I have suggests that teaming allows a vast amount of stuff to be covered up that otherwise would be subject to discovery. This may be outdated, however.
Thanks, Christy
john from 44…..
i clicked on your address,there john…
wanted to find out about “the one important story”that everybody
missed.just found somebody pushin’ his book..about spiritual awakening in northern new mexico?please john,don’t waste my/our/
christy’s/jane’s time….we’re all kinda busy at the moment trying to rescue our country from facsists…thanks…ya’ll come back now,hear?
From the post:
Something that has been bugging me for a while, who was the CIA contact that fed Cheney the information on Valerie? (p. 8, para. h) How high did they go? Was it Fleitz — or Tenet? That would be an interesting nugget to know, wouldn’t it?
Per Murray Waas:
Cheney told investigators that he had learned of Plame’s employment by the CIA and her potential role in her husband being sent to Niger by then-CIA director George Tenet, according to people familiar with Cheney’s interviews with the special prosecutor.
Tenet has told investigators that he had no specific recollection of discussing Plame or her role in her husband’s trip with Cheney, according to people with familiar with his statement to investigators.
Maybe Tenet remembers getting a Medal of Freedom but it doesn’t sound like he helped Fitzgerald much.
It’s been quite a few years, but I seem to recall handling arbitration cases (Federal Sector, and based on Federal law and procedure) where employment was defined as a “property right” and therefore protected under “due process.” If my faulty memory is correct we “won” most of these cases because of management’s failure to follow the very strict rules for dismissal/demotion/transfer precisely, thus failing to provide appropriate “due process” to the affected employees (despite what might have been the “merits” of the management case).
Wilson Himself was the source for the June 12 Pincus Wash Post story.
From page 45 of the Senate Select Committee of Intelligence (Prewar Intelligence):
“The former ambassador also told Committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article (”CIA Did Not Share Doubt on Iraq Data; Bush Used Report of Uranium Bid,” June 12, 2003) which said, “among the Envoy’s conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because ‘the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.’” Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the “dates were wrong and the names were wrong” when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports. The former ambassador said that he may have “misspoken” to the reporter when he said he concluded the documents were “forged.” He also said he may have become confused about his own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported in March 2003 that the names and dates on the documents were not correct and may have thought he had seen the names himself. The former ambassador reiterated that he had been able to collect the names of the government officials which should have been on the documents. “