As always, please keep these comments on the topic of FUBAR and the book discussion. Thanks!

Welcome everyone. Can’t wait to get this discussion started on FUBAR. And a big welcome to Sam Seder and Stephen Sherrill today. :)

Today in America

Absolutely Fucked UP

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ailarticle

Hi all,
thanks for joining us and thanks to Christy and Jane and all at FDL. Stephen is working his way back from little italy where he was watching the world cup.

Sorry I missed last week. I went to the one house I’ve been to in 5 years that didn’t have internet access.

Oh man, Sam — good luck to Stephen on that one. I’d bet it’s a bit…erm…rowdy there at the moment. :)

Glad you could make it, Sam — great job filling in for Al Franken last week!

yeah, i suspect that there’s a slight bit of excitement there.

I’d also like to offer a blanket apology for the typing miscues which follow in my posts.

Sam — I checked the RaptureReady.com index today before the chat — it’s down 2 points to 155. Whew! I was worried something might happen to disrupt the chat today. *g*

Hi Sam and Christy! Two of my favorite liberal media types in one room!

I enjoy your show on Air America very much, Sam and also like it when you sub for others. Haven’t read the book yet, but I do so love your phone call pranks.

Thank you for all your hard work and the good works you (both) do.

Thanks Christy, I really like that time slot– and Al has a well developed audience.

I leave my sneakers untied in anticipation of the rapture.

And I’d like to apologize for anymore of Sam’s forthcoming apologies.

Hi folks, sorry I’m late. Was in Little Italy watching the World Cup. I’ve yellow carded myself for my tardiness.

Hi Sam.

Sorry I missed last week. I went to the one house I’ve been to in 5 years that didn’t have internet access.

You went to Janeane’s house?

Hey Josh! Great to see you, too! Wow — we have a plethora of Air America luminaries. (I’m not worthy. lol)

Sorry I’m late. Little Italy is a bit crazy right now. I’ve yellow carded myself for my tardiness.

and for the double post.

Welcome, Stephen — I’m just glad you made it out of Little Italy in one piece. *g*

I leave my sneakers untied in anticipation of the rapture.

But, but you’re a Je……… oh forget it.

and nice to know the rapture index is down. But i wonder if they’ve recalculated since the N. Korean missile episode.

and all the “terrorist plots” the DHS keeps breaking up.

19
i get to sit on the right hand side of god….

or buen in hellfire!

So, here’s my big question of the day: the snark and humor in FUBAR was exceptional at cutting through the malarky and making even the depressing and unpalatable information readable. Why don’t more Democrats wake up and realize what a useful tool humor and ridicule and laughter can be in getting their message across?

It boggles my mind that they don’t use it more often. (Although, granted, they’d have to find people with decent delivery and timing skills. Note to self: not Joe Biden.)

though, Sam, you know from the book, your seat by the right hand of god is only good for part of the rapture. Your seat after that isn’t so good.

Christy @ 23, that’s a good question. It’s arguable even that had our last two presidential nominees had more of a sense of humor, one or both might have been in the White House now.

I get the feeling the internet tubes are clogged, or something…

I think there’s sometimes a sense on the left that humor isn’t serious, or that it’s somehow disrepectful to the issue at hand. Even Janeane sometimes feels that way on the show.

Jacqrat at 26 — I think it’s post-world-cup beer stupor. But I’d suspect that will make for an amusing chat in about 15 minutes.

19
i get to sit on the right hand side of god….

or buen in hellfire!

Well as long as you can do The Majority Report from hell………..

But seriously, you are my favorite AAR host.

I went to buy FUBAR at Walmart today, but they must have been out of stock *cough*. Plenty of copies of Godless though…..

Yeah, definitely not Joe Biden. Though I think effective use of humor will be one of the reasons why Al Franken would be a formidable candidate, if he decides to run. It’s hard to rebut humor and not look like a jackass.

and all the “terrorist plots” the DHS keeps breaking up.

Are those “terrorist plots” or “terrorist pilots” the DHS keeps breaking up? Are we sure they aren’t disrupting the fall TV schedule, and the producers are too embarassed to admit it?

Anyway — Welcome, to all the Air America Luminaries!!!

Do you, um . . . work for a CIA Airline or something?

kidding, just kidding . . .

I was recently at one of the breakfasts organized by the American Prospect in DC. Most of the guests are Dems…Dean, Sherrod Brown, Pelosi, etc.. But by far the one with the best sense of humor has been the only conservative: Grover Norquist.

Stephen at 27 — I did some stand-up (not a lot, and not very well, mind you) in college, and I have always found a humor to be the best way to twist in an especially difficult knife. Or to drive a good wedge between current beliefs and getting people to think about them in a new light.

Sarcasm can be a difficult one to use well without pissing people off entirely, but flat out humor or some really well done ridicule can be incredibly effective. Maybe its a Southern thing…

christy… I think people on the left do tend to use humor and it tends to be significantly better than what passes for humor on the right. with that said, I also think that political engagement on the left is qualitatively different than that on the right… it neccesarily takes politics and it’s implications more seriously. Part of the whole conservatainment, like rush for instance, is based on denial in general and allows for a more seamless integration of low rent humor.

-ck- at 31, if they were “pilots” they might actually have expertise in something, which it doesn’t appear the miami group, or the latest one, had any of.

Sam at 34 — good point. I’m not talking about a “git r done” level of humor. *G* (Although that would work around where I live in WV, in case anyone is wondering…) I think, in general (if one can generalize about this sort of thing), some more humor can be a much more humanizing and more effective messaging tool.

I think the Lenny the Shark call is a PRIME example of that from the show. (And one of my faves, btw.)

Sam, I thought the way you discussed class and economic issues on Al’s show this week was terrific. Any plans to follow up in a similar vein, either via radio or print?

I agree with Sam — when it’s used, it’s better on the left, but the right uses it more often, but it’s different humor, more rooted in glibness, or a kind of pure sarcastic name calling, which isn’t really funny.

My question is, aside from using humor, how do you make people understand they’re being lied to without making them feel like chumps for buying it hook, line and sinker? Some people I hear calling in, for example, seem to be resistent to the truth about even simple things like the way pensions are skewed by executive compensation because to accept that they don’t get it would mean accepting that there are serious flaws in the world view they have been provided by spin-meisters.

Christy, at 36, one of the things Sam does well with those phone calls, and which we try to do in the book, is simply take their premises at face value, and extend them logically. Often that’s all you need to do to create some easy humor.

ch 36… but git her done style stuff is what nearly all conservative humour is (maybe plus some frat style mocking of the weak or strange) the range of topics for “liberal humour” is more narrow. Rush can mock anything that is slighlty different from the “norm” and it fits a paranoid, fearful conservative ideology.

37– thanks I talk a decent amount about class and economic populist on the majority report. post nov 06 I plan to focus on it even more… hopefully with a dem congress that will be more easily infuenced by the topic

Dover Bitch, at 39, you raise the fundemental problem. I think sometimes liberals overestimate the value of just arguing the facts. Many conservatives, (like Janeane’s Dad Carmine, and most of my family, too), will argue the facts, but when you keep exposing theirs as wrong, will just keep moving the goal posts, and I think that’s because they’re not basing their political preferences on facts at all, even though they like to believe they are.

I agree that humor is a very effective weapon. And truth be told, if these wackjobs weren’t running the country (into the ground) ridicule would be the ONLY appropriate response to their nonsense.

As it stands, a combination of ridicule and “serious” policy push-back is the answer. IMO.

We definately need more of our “leaders” to use more humor/ridicule.

And yes, Sharktales was a classic. The fact the guy had no clue that you were ridiculing him was priceless………..

CHS at 2:20 pm –

One of the things that makes FDL great is the snark woven into the posts. Online humor is tough, but you and crew have the touch.

Question for everyone — is on line and on air humor different? I noticed during the Dean campaign that rhetoric that plays well online can be way over the top in person. Has anyone noticed a difference when it comes to humor?

Well, I’ll throw a question out — which of the possible nominees seems to be able to use it? Hard to say any of them do. Warner maybe, but I haven’t seen enough of him.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 2:23 pm (#36) - I’m not talking about a “git r done” level of humor. *G* (Although that would work around where I live in WV, in case anyone is wondering)

I hear that some of it’s funny no matter where you’re from … ;-)

Humor’s a tough thing, and much of it’s probably best left to the professionals. Delivery and timing are usually important, and I suspect most politicians would rather work on something else. For those who can manage it, it would probably be effective (Bill Clinton and JFK were both good at it), but Hillary, Biden, Wes Clark, and Joe Lieberman should probably avoid it unless the joke’s drop dead funny and they have time to rehearse.

39
I don’t think people feel like they’re idiots for falling fro this stuff. I think even when they realize on one level they’ve been lied to, most people– even ones who change their perspective, rationalize or revise their recollections of their past beliefs so they can move on with out landing naked on the floor of their bathroom in the fetal position.

I want the bumper sticker that says - “In case of Rapture - can I have your car?”

-ck- @44, I completely agree — FDL’s use of humor is fantastic. And it’s even funnier when the right wing blog targets act so wounded and victimized by it.

Re Cujo at 46 - don’t you guys think that the style of humor has to fit the personality of the person using it? Clark & Hillary would be well-served by self-deprecating humor … most pols would be.

Re online vs. live humor, my sense has been that you need to target people less and ideas more when you’re live on radio or TV? Or do you think I’m too much of a wimp that way?

Sam Seder @ 2:28 pm (#41) - True, part of what works in humor depends very much on the audience. Their knowledge, or lack of it, makes irony work or fail.

-ck-, I’ll tell you… Lieberman’s comments about it being a short ride to a hospital willing to provide rape victims birth control is one of the things that bothers me the most about him. But I was surprised by my own reaction to hearing Lamont bring it up in the debate. It almost seemed too harsh-sounding coming out of Lamont’s mouth as opposed to the blog-o-sphere.

Reagan, though I vehemently opposed him, was certainly effective as humor. Not that he was that funny, but the bar is different at that level. It’s less that the President need to be funny than that he be perceived as being able to laugh at himself.

Dover Bith at 52 may be answering my question at 50

Stephen at 49 and -ck- at 44 — awwww, thanks, you guys. We sure try. But I do think a lot of it for us is the visuals. We try to marry just the right photo with the text. (See Jean Schmidt above…ahem.)

Right Wing humor isn’t funny! They can’t get beyond the meaness of their agenda to be actually funny. All they can do is be mean. It’s all they know.

51… true, less so in performed comedy where if you have the audience’s benefit of the doubt you can actually communicate to the audience that the joke is funny even if they don’t get it. it’s a committment thing

Dover Bitch at 52: that’s very interesting, too — the importance of tone, even when simply attacking an outrageous and attackable statement by the other side.

Sam 47, but that’s kind of what I was getting at (even though I spelled resistant wrong). Even if you get them to accept a specific fact, what can you do do get them to understand that those facts should be fatal to their more general premises?

I ask you guys because I feel that you both are highly effective communicators.

RJ Eskow @ 2:33 pm (#50) - I think Clark would probably be able to do self-deprecating, but Hillary would have to work at it. Even there, it’s partly about delivery, I think. The audience has to think they actually believe what they’re saying, at least to a small degree. Let’s face it, it’s part acting, and you have to believe the character they’re playing has some humility for a self-deprecating joke to work.

Right Fools - it is all in the perspective. I think Bill O’LieLy is funny as hell…

Of course, not intentionally, but still.

Sam at 57 — and, at times, a factor of how late in the evening you hit the stage, who you follow, and how many drink minumum comes with the “no cover charge” lure. *g*

57: to elaborate on Sam here — even on the radio, where you can hear more inflection than online, there’s no comedy bit we’ve ever done where there aren’t several people on our blog that think it’s real. Part of this, of course, comes from the fact that the Bush administration has set the bar on what’s obvious parody pretty high.

(I’ve thought about starting a conversation with one of those drivers at the local WalMart, but she had that bun and koulots look going on, with five kids in tow and, well, I didn’t have the heart to ask her whether she ought to be so cocky about the whole rapture thing and whether God really likes people who think of themselves as a “sure thing.” But I figure she’s got enough on her plate, what with the koulots and all…)

I have looked in all my dictionaries and I cannot find a reference to koulots anywhere. What the hell is a koulot?

Jacqrat at 61 — I can’t even see the name O’Reilly now without thinking “falafel…loofah.” Mwahahahaha.

Tim Wayne at 64 — you know those pants that look kind of like a split skirt that go just below the knee, often a lovely, thick polyester, and were in style in the 70s at some point? Well, they are back…SIGH.

Hi, Sam:

I podcast and listen to Franken every day, but I have to admit that this past week, when you were hosting, I simply relished every moment of the shows and couldn’t get them downloaded fast enough.

i hope you thanked HoJo for pulling his pre-Indepenence Day stunt just in time for a week of daytime snark from you!

Dover at 59:

imho you can’t really convince most of the people I think you are talking about with facts… I think emotion, and comedy that denigrates the emotional centers of their belief system is more effective. basically, I believe demogougary is the only way to fight demogougary (sorry for sp)

Dover Bitch, at 59: that’s the sticking point. With Carmine (Janeane’s father), for example, we’ve done that many times, as has Al with his friend Mark Luther, the ditto head. When it’s pointed out, all they do is shift around. They don’t want to be disabused of the team they root for, and if they choose not to be, it’s almost impossible.

Another question… is it hard to be funny on the radio when you can’t guage your audience’s reaction instantly or widely?

kulottes?

Christy at 65 - But when he tries to be funny……. complete failure.

>which of the possible nominees seems to be able to use it?

Steve@45: Feingold, clearly. Look at his first senatorial campaign in ‘92 - as an underdog both in the primary and the election, he employed humor masterfully. As a Wisconsinite, I recall a memorable commercial in which Elvis endorsed him.

Sam & Stephen,

It seems to me that political humor serves two functions: either 1)to persuade people who differ with you, or 2) to provide catharsis and clarity for those who agree with you (especially when they’re under siege, as now).

I’m partway thru FUBAR and would put it more in Category 2. Would you agree? And, if you plan to write another book, would you continue in the same vein?

(sorry for the lengthy question)

I finally realized who Jean Schmidt reminds me of. Kitty Farmer in Donnie Darko (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0335275/). Look at that picture and imagine her saying: “Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion!”

Sam - first let me confess to not having had a chance to read your book, but I do listen to you on AAR as often as I can, and was thrilled that you were on in Al’s time slot last week, so I could listen in full.

I’ve always been suspicious of those who felt it necessary to crusade on issues that (1) do not affect them and (2) do not affect anyone else they know. Do they fear that they harbor these things within themselves, and have to project their hate outward in order to hold it at bay? I wonder.

The hard-line crusaders also apparently have to relinquish whatever sense of humor they may have had when they sign on to all-hate, all-the-time; there just is no way to get them to laugh -even a little - at themselves.

But, there are those who have been pretty conservative, but not radically so, who can sometimes be nudged closer to reality with a little humor. I’ve had some practice with this, having been married to a Republican for 26 years…with my husband, I have started having conversations, not about politics, but about issues, and ones that affect us. I’ll get something going, and then when he’s really worked up, I’ll drop the “yeah, and Bush wants to…” which allows him to connect the dots without feeling like I’ve shoved it down his throat.

Anyway, I’ve found that matching the other side with equal measures of hatred and zealotry is useless in piercing the veil; I think it just makes them even more strident and dug-in.

culotte
One entry found for culotte.
Merriam Webster Online

Main Entry: culotte
Pronunciation: ‘k-”lt, ‘ky-; k-’lt, ky-’
Function: noun
Etymology: French, breeches, from diminutive of cul backside — more at CULET
: a divided skirt; also : a garment having a divided skirt — often used in plural

Right Fools at 72 — that’s true, but that pomposity of his just makes that all the more hilarious, doesn’t it? But really, we’re laughing with him. No. Honestly. *snerk*

Sam at 68 is similar to me at 69. And to Christy’s comment about falafel and O’Reilly. That’s the sort of thing that saps his respect, and this might be more effective than pointing out his lies (though I’m still glad Media Matters is there to do that, too).

67 thanks and hojo?

Sam and Stephen (68 & 69), thanks for the answers. And, also, thanks for coming in for this chat.

“I can’t even see the name O’Reilly now without thinking “falafel…loofah.” Mwahahahaha.”

Or ‘FOX SECURITY’! ROFL!

maybe “cullottes” would a more recognized spelling? “koulot” is indeed todays spelling! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culottes

Rj Eskwo @74, yeah, I’d say we’re mostly in category two. That’s certainly the easiest to do, but ideally one wants to do both. Though, like Sam said, persuasion, per se, is tough, but one thing humor can do very well is sap the target of respect and the ability to communicate with his or her own troops.

I’d like to say I’m wearing coulottes right now, but mine are more “capris.”

Sam at 80 — HoJo = Joe Lieberman. Can’t remember here who started that one this week, but it appears to have stuck fast…

For the fashion-illiterate among us:

Coulotte = Skort

(hope that doesn’t make things worse!)

culotte (kū-lŏt’, kyū-, kū’lŏt’, kyū’-)
n.

A woman’s full trousers cut to resemble a skirt. Often used in the plural.

[French, breeches, diminutive of cul, rump, from Latin cūlus.]

——-

Cullottes at WalMart I can handle. I dread the return of the stretch pants with stirrups.

Anne, @76, we actually have a chapter about converting republicans, much like you’re saying. The trick is to talk about the issue outside of a partisan context, and then once you’ve connected some dots, then bring up the fact that Bush, et al, disagree with what you’ve just gotten your target to agree with.

Christy 23

Somewhere I was reading (was it here?) that Wingnuts hold the stage all the time with their meaness, diatribes and made-up sh*t, and that liberals are no match for their decibel level, because we’re more likely to say, “Um, okay, so they want to (whatever), sure, okay by me”.

The person making this argument opined that the way liberals can get the stage back and make people hear us is with humor, and that the liberals who are being heard through the Right-wing Noise Machine are the funny ones, like you and Franken, Stephanie Miller and Jim, Stewart, Colbert and more.

Now that I think about it, I think I heard this discussion on AAR. :)

Stephen at 85 — I have a mental picture. Thanks.

Here is a visual to go with the conversation…

People reading FUBAR are also reading the following books — see link below.

http://www.orgnet.com/FUBAR.gif

Here is how to connect the dots/books:
A –> B : people reading book A also bought book B

Mostly the funny side of the current crop[07/06] of blue books… except for “American Theocracy” which a lot of people on the blue side are reading.

Thanks for revising FDR’s speech following Pearl Harbor (p 134). Kind of sums up the difference in our political leadership 60 years ago and now. Enjoyed the book (and bought one for a friend).

db @ 70

for me, no. I did a lot of writing and film/tv work as a director/actor and you wouldn’t hear a laugh for months. to my detriment i never cared about getting laughs as a standup- which has helped me in other endevours but not so much in stand up

And I don’t know if anybody has heard it yet, but Crooks and Liars has up the audio of Adam Corolla hanging up on Ann Coulter. It’s funny — and refreshing — since, unlike places like NBC, he gives her all the respect she deserves.

74 I’d agree with that, though i hope that maybe it will reach people who don’t neccesarily agree with all our shit but would be surprised to realise just how compromised the republicans have become to the fundies

Stephen at 95 — I heard that this morning and laughed by butt off. For everyone else, here’s the link:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....n-coulter/

Stephen 66

I wonder if Mark Luther and Carmine’s reluctance to change their positions in the face of, gulp, facts doesn’t have more to do with the very human need to save face more than anything else.

I mean, nobody wants to admit they are an idiot on national radio.

I have an idea that a more private approach would be more effective, if not such great radio.

Christie H.S. said:

Tim Wayne at 64 — you know those pants that look kind of like a split skirt that go just below the knee, often a lovely, thick polyester, and were in style in the 70s at some point? Well, they are back…SIGH.

Do you mean this horrible thing?

And take it from, when Sam said he didn’t care about laughs in his standup, he’s serious.

Sam at 2:28 pm –

I talk a decent amount about class and economic populist on the majority report.

Finding a killer ju-jitsu joke that captures the essence of the public mood can be a devastating political weapon.

In 2000, I sent Team Gore a joke that went something like: “George Bush wants a Supreme Court that will take us back to the ’90’s — that’s the 1890’s, or maybe the 1790’s.” Jesse Jackson ran with it, and it helped Al Gore win his 40,000 vote plurality in Florida. Of course, none of anticipated the SCOTUS 1 Bush 1 Vote interpretation of the equal protection clause.

Anyway — in yesterday’s Blue America thread, I wrote that Republicans believe economics are a zero sum game — which is why they have to steal from the poor and middle class to give welfare to the rich.

Democrats, on the other hand, believe that economic policies that increase the prosperity of working Americans benefit everyone. Looking at the track records of the Clinton years and the Bush era, even the investor class should agree with us.

Here’s the question — as professional humorists, can you craft jokes around economic issues that will be useful for Democrats, and capture both middle class anxiety and GOP hypocrisy?

Valdis, @92, very cool graphic.

culotte does not = skort. A skort is a skirt with built in shorts underneath it.

Really enjoyed the Tom Friedman Through The Ages section, as well as the rewrite of FDR’s Pearl Harbor speech.

I think the over-the-top style is a great way to highlight the present absurdities, both in the media, and in the pols.

Sapping the target of respect is a powerful tool. Many of us have used it (or tried to) without actually naming it.

If you can use it in a Rovian way - by attacking their perceived strength - so much the better.

Sam 80

HoJo = Holy Joe

and your little dog too…at 98 — The chapter that I talk about above (ch. 21) has some truly great ideas about getting an “ear worm” into the brain of your wingnut pals and relatives that eventually pierces the kool-aid veil. A lot of it is humor in that chapter, but like the whole of FUBAR, there is a lot that can be converted to practical application. As I said, the Super-Jewish Grandma part is priceless.

(Oh, and Sam, good on you for calling the Lieberman campaign manager guy on his “all Jews better vote for Joe or they aren’t good Jews” malarky from last week. That was just utter crap.)

waiting for cicero @104, thanks, and the thing is, you don’t even need to go over the top. Both of those, for example, were just a matter of transfering one thing to a different context. It can be surprisingly effective.

Tim Wayne at 99 — yes, but imagine it in a burgandy polyester, and you begin to see in your minds’ eye what I mean. Urgh.