Tweet
Watch Joe not answer the question about his cut-and-run candidacy (video by Spazeboy at his Debate Video Headquarters)
Lieberman came off as a rude Republican asshole, with nothing in the tank but personal attacks.
Biggest lies:
1. The Neverending War — as Stoller (who is sitting right behind me, this is a little weird) writes on MyDD, Lieberman’s claims that he doesn’t support an open-ended military commitment in Iraq is total bunk. Lieberman, from 4/20/03:
"We may, over the long term, with the consent of the new Iraqi government, establish some permanent bases in Iraq. And wouldn’t that be a dramatic change, where we have an allied government there in Iraq, at the center of the Middle East, where we may have not a permanent police presence, but one or another military base that’s working in cooperation with the government there?"
2. Lieberman claimed to be a great supporter of women’s rights. I think we all know what crap that is. Lieberman invoked his endorsement by Planned Parenthood, but the fact is that Susan Yelon, head of CT-Planned Parenthood, voted as a delegate for Lamont at the State Democratic Convention. Obviously the DC addiction to cocktail weenies takes into account what is going on in the state not at all.
3. Lieberman opposed privatizing Social Security? Ho-ho-ho:
Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., is undecided about the concept of using payroll taxes to fund private Social Security accounts, bringing to three the known number of Senate Democrats who have yet to publicly rule out the idea. President Bush has made the accounts the centerpiece of his domestic agenda. But other than Rep. Allen Boyd of Florida, no congressional Democrats have formally signed on. While Lieberman has concerns about the idea, he is continuing to study it while hoping for more details on Social Security from the president, a Lieberman aide said today. "He’s still in a listening and learning stage and is keeping an open mind, but he does have concerns about private accounts as carve-outs that would potentially undermine the guaranteed minimum benefit and worsen our fiscal health and debt load," a Lieberman aide said today.
Feel free to document your own atrocities in the comments.
337 Comments
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
NED!
NED
wow, that felt good!
Ned focused on issues, Joe focused on attacks.
GO NED!
Rape Gurney got the Rove memo – attack, attack attack
posted on the discussion at nbe30. I missed most of the debate due to computer problems, but that “just folks” stuff at the end from Joe was just nasty.
Geeze! Server overload.
This isn’t Faux News, SIR!
KA-BAM!!!
What’s up with the tax return question, and why did Ned duck it?
Lieberman was an ass. He got slammed on Hardball, their online poll, and (natch) Olbermann. Jane nailed it with “churlish.” Constant interruptions, thinly disguised contempt, thin-skinned arrogance and a massive sense of entitlement.
Ned took it to him, but looked nervous. Got in a couple killer zingers, though.
Apparently Joe believes he can do a better job for the people of Connecticut…
Why couldn’t he attack Cheney like that 6 years ago?
I’ve seen Ned be more, impressive, but as usual, Joe did not disappoint!
Truth to power!
Ned, Colbert, and FDL!!
Someone over in the Kos comments put it well…
“Lieberman is a pit bull to Democrats and a pussycat to Republicans.”
That placement of the play button over Joe`s mouth (his pacifier ?) is inspired
NedMentum w/Rootz !
“There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.” – Niccol Machiavelli
The media is comparing Lieberman to Reagan with his “There he goes again” response. Lieberman just positioned himself solidly as a non-progressive with every intention of taking the moderate vote in November. Wouldn’t it be far easier for Joe to just welcome Lamont’s challenge as a healthy part of democracy?
Aside from his suit not fitting, Lamont was great. He danced with the girl who brought him: progressive values and anger over Lieberman’s ties to Bush. More than anything, Lamont showed himself to be a candidate of the people.
Now is the time to get Lieberman to pick August or November. By debating Lamont, Lieberman is engaged in the August campaign and he should be forced to explain why he gets to run in November at every turn.
tommy yum (9),
I don’t think Ned did duck the tax return question (even though Joe insisted he did). Ned said that “Annie & Ned Lamont” had turned over a huge stack of requested documents, including financials (which would probably include tax returns, one would think).
Someone raised a good point in the last thread: Ned did NOT suck. He survived without looking like an ignoramous. There were no Dan Quale moments. And that’s fine. All a challenger has to do against the incumbent (especially an unpopular incumbent like Joenertia) is survive.
“Lieberman is a pit bull to Democrats and a pussycat to Republicans.”
It’s tough love, don’tchaknow.
I tuned in late (found it in time thank god!) but I didn’t think Ned did bad at all.
Voters will not give Holy Joe any credit for the pork stuff, which he beat like a dead horse the whole hour. Most people know any congresscritter will do that. Also it sounded like a major bribe from Camp Desperation.
Why couldn’t he attack Cheney like that 6 years ago?
Because Rove wasn’t helping him 6 years ago.
Ned stumbled a bit, but Joe was 100% braggadoccio and smear. And that, in my opinion, is a major turn-off. His whiney tone was really just too much to bear. I think Americans are tired of the do-nothing Congress, and Ned seemed like a breath of fresh air in comparison.
my general post debate sense is that Ned was trying to get the issues out there and Joe spent most of his time trying to attack Ned…
doesn’t work well for Joe…
I totally hate to say it, but putz came across far more relaxed and poised. Ned needs to do something about his bug-eyes. Substance doesn’t matter – tv does.
Ned looks ABSOLUTELY ready for primetime! Joe-nertia just comes across as desperate & whiny.
Okay. Joe’s scared. Didn’t see it the first time around, but there it is.
I have real issues with the moderator tonight. She wasn’t ready for Joe. Like so many D.C. media folks, she can’t help but defer to “power.”
Two GLARING Lamont ommissions:
1. I believe Lieberman voted for both W SCOTUS nominees (if not, skip to #2). SCOTUS just saved US civil liberties. With a 3rd W appointment, Hamden would have come out the other way. Lamont should have crucified Lieberman on this.
2. Lamont should have said that he created X number of high paying jobs in CT while Liberman was keeping his seat warm in DS as CT was losing high paying jobs.
I’m surprised! In the post-debate analysis, Noron & the MSNBC commentator (watzis name?) both sounded impressed with Ned’s debate performance, and much less so with HoJo’s…
Why couldn’t he attack Cheney like that 6 years ago?
Because Rove wasn’t helping him 6 years ago.
Or maybe they just had more common ground.
DONATE – DONATE – DONATE
Can someone post a volunteer / contribute link in the comments? I just donated $20 off a link I found on DK. Let’s everyone donate at least $5 (or more if you can) — it will send quite a message to the media if Ned gets an immediate surge of donations.
Okay, I admit I posted this on the other thread, but…
Aargh! Who agreed to that set and the location of the moderator? Ned trapped in the middle, having to look left and right, while Joe relaxes and can have Ned and the moderator in his sight lines simultaneously? Need some theater pros on this team…
Passed the TV station with LieberYouth waving their signs and looking on the whole a bit Moonie.
Resist the urge to attack Lieberman supporters, you will need them in another month. Remember that you have to win this primary in such a way that will enable you to win the general. That means you will need to reach out to the folks you now characterize as Lieberman trolls. Some people prefer Lieberman, maybe they shouldn’t, but they do. You will need them in the near future. Don’t burn your bridges.
what a smarmy-ass rude,interupting condescending putz. Someone at the end of the last thread noted the contrast between attack-dog Shmoe when debating a Democrat, versus ass-kissy Shmoe, when cupping Cheney’s balls in the ‘04 debate. Shmoe needs to be asked why he hates Democrats, but loves his Rethuglican masters.
Is another debate scheduled? Ned will have gained confidence from this experience, and will come off stronger; Shmoe will just continue to be his vile self.
I didn’t like Joe’s use of the term liberal democrats when refering to Ned’s support. It’s like he was doing what Repugs do when they refer to liberals.
Mike,
He ducked it. Would have taken two seconds to say “I’ll do it” or “I did it.”
I think Joe beat himself on this one. Ned looked green–which is refreshing. There’s clearly no love loss between the two.
I think Ned has got his work cut out for him. He is seemingly running on energy conservation and universal health care along with bringing home the troops against a three term Senator with seniority and a moderate to left of center voting record.
To be sure I would love to see Lieberman retired from the Senate but there are many other pretend Democrats with a much worse voting record so it would have been nice to see something really special from Lamont.
I thought Lamont should have worked harder to establish his successful business record. How do you come from a small local political post to running for the Senate?
I wish him luck but I am not sure this performance did it for him.
I’m surprised! In the post-debate analysis, Noron & the MSNBC commentator (watzis name?) both sounded impressed with Ned’s debate performance, and much less so with HoJo’s…
Although they did kinda dismiss the online poll as being distorted by us Wacky Technosavvy Netroots Fanatics.
Um, does Craig Crawford kinda creep anyone else out?
Ned did a kind of rope a dope worthy of Ali. First twenty minutes he let Joe jab and punch, land a few blows. Them opened up and wailed on Joe!
What is the narrative here? I think rather than score debate points the important thing is the story. I think it’s Mr. Smith goes to Washington.
oops, typo, ‘00 debate, duh.
Argh! EPU’d again:
I’d like to see a commercial with Joe Liebermanss voice cut throughout saying “Who is Ned Lamont?” (he did sound pretty clueless) and with different clips showing just who Ned Lamont is: working with kids, growing a business, standing up for women’s rights, etc. — ending with Ned Lamont saying “I’m Ned Lamont, and I approve this message.”
Bonnie,
They–not necessarily Lamont’s people–wanted Ned on the left of the screen.
For those of you who thought Ned came across on TV as very nervous, the audio certainly didn’t reveal that.
I thought Lieberman at times was almost incoherent – he kept trying to paint Ned as one thing, and in the same breath asked “Who is Ned Lamont?” And he did that repeatedly. Well, if you have to keep asking that question, pardon me if I don’t take too much stock in your attempts to define him.
The moderating was terrible – Joe came across as though he were entitled to run right over and through Ned’s time and Ned’s comments.
I wish Ned had reminded the voters that he offered to put a spending cap on the campaign and Lieberman turned him down…seems like if Joe were really running so far behind in the money race, he’d have grabbed at that offer.
I think Ned did a great job against a sitting Senator. Much applause!!!
Joe did his Karl Rove-approved attack strategy and played to the general election voters. (remember, he’s running as an Independent). I don’t think it helps him with Democrats.
Ned did quite well for himself. Probably will pull even in the polls with Joe. He did an admirable job of fending off Joe’s attack strategy and got the discussion back to real issues. The first part of his answer on immigration was great. Talking about the high school kids (the second part) he should have left unsaid.
And the only major groaner was the jimmy carter sweater reference.
All in all, a good performance for Ned.
Joe is tired and stale, but I’m not sure how he sells. I would think people would be sick of that shit by now.
Whatta I know.
Attacking WORKS, people, sick but true. Lieberwhore was relentless, even if a lying sack of shit. Until we out-relentless them, we lose.
Why couldn’t he attack Cheney like that 6 years ago?
Same reasons sharks don’t eat attorneys.
Professional courtesy.
I think one of the most offensive things Joe said was his explanation of his Plan B, saying that Lamont couldn’t beat the Republican, whose poll numbers are utterly dismal, even head-to-head with Ned before anyone knew who Ned was.
On the tax returns issue: all candidates for federal office have to submit financial reports detailing their income, property, and stocks. It’s a pretty broad document and you can see Lieberman’s on opensecrets.org. It’s distinct from a tax return, though, which I don’t believe Lamont has released publicly.
Lamont is rich, duh. He’s also grassrootsy. There’s no conflict between them.
Ned was smart to include the line about Joe telling rape victims to just “take a short drive” to the next non-Catholic hospital. But I wish he’d rebutted Joe’s talking point about Planned parenthood supporting him because he’s strong on choice. Shoulda brought up the differnece between the CT offices of Planned Parenthood and NARAL and the national ones. Also, I wish Ned had talked about Joe’s support for Alito, and how predictably fascist Alito has turned out to be in his short time on the SCOTUS.
But, I’m being picky-unish here, because it’s pretty hard to make legitimate points when your blowhard opponent keeps interrupting you!
AM i the only one who thinks the redundant video/email questions from CT voters was lame?
http://www.actblue.com/page/firedoglake
Sorry for the hit and run comment guys, but I’m cranking out a shitload of videos.
I just wanted to spread the word here that I have the closing statements and the closing questions videos online at the local video HQ post on my site.
http://www.spazeboy.net/2006/0…..-video-hq/
grandmatoo– John Harwood of the WSJ.
Eli, meaning we know how to send internets through the pipes?
Meanwhile, I think this debate is a start, not an end in itself. Take Joe’s Social Security remarks, and make a commercial with his actual record. Take his claim of standing up to Bush (yeah right), and combine it with the Kiss. etc.
Good God, Lieberman is a raging asshole. That’s the one clear thing that came across for me: major, total, raging asshole. And Ned, whatever his little stumbles, comes across as a really good guy.
Some here are giving Joe WAY too much credit. Remember that people hate politicians . . .
Another underlying thread of the whole thing was, it was SOOO obvious that HoJo didn’t think he should HAVE to be up there debating for the primary. He thinks the seat is his by divine right and it showed.
Ned could make hay out of that one, too.
Well, I don’t think I looked at the debate with too biased an eye because even the talking heads on Hardball seemed to get a kick out of this new comer Lamont going so far as to say that Lamont held up well in the debate. They got a huge kick out of the kiss buttons.
And we couldn’t ask better than them saying that Lieberman came off like a Repub in manner.
Frankly, I was astonished by Lieberman’s smug attacks. He did not come off like a nice man, but like a politician that had plenty of laurels to rest on, if only you all knew how great he simply is.
I don’t think that’s going to play well here in CT.
Ned started off a bit fumbly but got better. Joe stayed in his attack stance. The implicit “vote for me and I’ll bring more money thru earmarks” sounded bad and plays to the GOP’s meme of Dems being weak. He needs to be gone.
Lieberman came off as what he is: an Incumbocrat (h/t Eli). He cares about his own seat more than loyalty to his own party. He was put out by even having to show up. MSNBC said that his people were “taken aback” by the national media attention, and not prepared for it. Perhaps a little too much disinfecting sunlight, Joey?
The link on my name is the Ned-contribution page
GOD did the Carter sweater thing make me cringe. wtF you THINKING ned? good god!
1.202 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN
‘ GOES ON AND ON AND…
Prizgar:
I don’t know what you waz watchin’ but it wazn’t the debate I saw on C-span and MSNBC…both in substance ,style and the politics of appearance and presentation Lamont killed ‘im. Remember, this wasn’t on FOX this was on “mainstream media” and the strategic audience was Connectecutt Democrats and independants…but the larger, national audience jest made a decision on who Democrats are and what the Democratic Party stands for and it ain’t Fascist Joe.
This was a resoundin’ win for progressive Democrats in the fight for party definition….Bob Schrum, your projected income jest took a big hit and the Republican’s don’t pay nearly as good fer losers!!!
KEEP THE FAITH, AFTER TANIGHT THE RATS ARE GUNNA HAFTA LEARN HOW TA SWIM!!
Eli, meaning we know how to send internets through the pipes?
*Tubes*. Sheesh. Your ignorance of advanced internet technowhatzises is embarrassing us.
The online poll for NBC Connecticut has ned winning the debate 79% to 21 for Holy Joe…with almost 3000 people voting.
msnbc poll Go! Vote! Now!
lamont moves up a point, lieb down 2: 79/19
I would like to see Joe Lieberman treat his beloved mandate Sean Hannity with such arrogance, prickishness and and aggressiveness.
Nah, that will never happen.
-GSD
why are these plebian types bothering me. that senate seat is mine, all mine. didn’t i prove it to you all when i ran for mine while demi-campaigning with al gore? it’s miiiiiiiiiiine.
nope, it isn’t, hojo.
didn’t like Joe’s use of the term liberal democrats when refering to Ned’s support.
That is a bizarre tactic to take in a Democratic primary. Most Democratic voters are going to be thinking just what’s wrong with being a liberal Democrat? That just plays into Lamont’s narrative that Lieberman is more comfortable with Republicans than Democrats.
The Joementom stops here. He’s out for himself, running as an independent. Quoting Republicans. He’s no Dick Cheney, but he’s close, just hasn’t shot anyone in the face. Besides violent video games and bashing Howard Stern, what has he done, except give away the 2000 election on Meet the Press which led us into this mess.
Oooohhh GREAT idea Linda @39!
Send it to Camp Lamont!
That just plays into Lamont’s narrative that Lieberman is more comfortable with Republicans than Democrats.
And vice versa (66% approval with CT Repubs).
Oops! Lol. Toobs!
i liveblogged it. UTI. still: i’m unhappy to report that joe looked better, and ned more like an amateur. joe said “i’ll bring jobs, i love liberal causes, you won’t release your tax returns.” ned had little to refute that.
i can’t tell you all how it pains me to say that.
eCAHNomics says
July 6th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
I think you highlighted the greatest weakness of those who prepared Ned, especially on talking points about Iraq, but also on Joe’s voting record. To me,however, those are manageable issues. Ned can demonstrate greater fluencey with those issues between now and August 8. HoJo, however, cannot grow character in a month.
Oops! Lol. Toobs!
Much better. Pipes are yesterday’s technology, used for phones and telegraphs and such. They’re not wide enough to carry internets. Then again, neither are tubes, which is why we need to upgrade to subterranean tunnels.
I find it weird that Leib actually thinks that someone challenging him for his seat is a threat and danger to that state and the Dem party.
I guess that’s one campaign strategy… I guess.
Hi Norske!
Joe was doing fairly well, during the early part of it, by issuing personal attacks against Lamont in relation to every question.
The only problem is, he’s still Joe Liebermann, defending the goddam war. No way around that. Still, for style, I give Joe one putrid little point.
But after that, he seemed to lose the thread and become repetitious, and his constant complaints about his being his own man just sounded like, “How dare anybody challenge me, it’s my seat, MINE!” I can’t possibly see how that helps him.
If I were Lamont, and if I had another debate, I would brush up on how to fight personally. The best moment of the debate was when he told Joe, “This isn’t Fox News!” That woke up everybody in the house, here, that had been snoozing through much of it.
Despite Crocker Joe-man’s constant whining, I like that Ned didn’t give in and continued to call him “Sir”.
It was like the climactic fight featured in “Cinderella Man” between Baer and Broderick:
Leobo-bear came out swinging and won a few early rounds over a less veteran opponent getting his footing. Cinderalla Man came back with a strong finish, using the veteran’s offensiveness against him to expose his percieved strength as mere boorishness meeting him with effective counterpunches to end with a flourish for a unanimous decision.
I had it 10-8 for the Connecticut Cinderella and next United States Senator… Ned LaMont.
Sharkbabe @24, I didn’t think there was anything wrong with the way ned looked. You live with the face you were born with…most of us do, anyway. “Wild-eyed”…maybe, a little. I’d be scared shit debating a sleaze bag on national tv. What came through to me was that his intent is honorable. He may not have all the answers, but he’s a good manager and knows how to surround himself with talent. He can be the best thing for Ct that’s come along in years. It’s why I keep raiding the kitty here at home and making donations. What’s good for CT will be good for the nation as well. The Common Good, yes.
katgw 07-06-2006, 7:01 PM
Every time Senator Lieberman chose to interrupt the debate and shout over Mr. Lamont, I was reminded what the real problem is… the Senator refuses to listen to Democrats, to our questions, to our answers, and our advice.
Gold from the NBC30forum board.
chicago dyke, look at it like this…Ned came off as a regular guy and Holy Joe as a professional pit bull politician…..People are tired of that…watch……Lamont is green BUT WON hands down!
Cinderellamont?
That was from the Kos comments.
my wife gasped at the end of the debate. holy joe walked right past ned and also the moderator and only chummed with the men. she screamed “FUCK HIM”. i laughed
Joe’s smug remark about Ned and his liberal democrat supporters will come back to bite him in the ass.
Reading the AP story very carefully, perhaps Marion got in front of the story. Was the story released to the AP by HoJo’s campaign to push Boxer to make a statement? There seems to me to be none from her in the article, only Marion announcing the support of colleagues Biden, Salazar, and Boxer.
TeddySanFran,
What is happening here is that in their desperation, the Lieberman campaign is playing fast and loose with the truth. From the comments I have been reading about what Boxer’s office is saying about this, this whole story came entirely from the Lieberman campaign, and the Lieberman campaign has recently been playing very fast and loose with the truth, like when they recently set up a Hartford Courant reporter who took them at their word when they told him that joe would run in November as an “independent Democrat”, which is quite prohibited by CT law -
these are desperate days for the Lieberman campaign as they struggle to grab hold of anything that will have some legs for joe. I have already posted elsewhere that the MSM must now independently verify every single thing that comes from the mouth of the Lieberman campaign, and this Boxer thing is just the latest example of that.
it’s one thing for us back-benchers to lobby for this or that detailed and nuanced response, but just imagine how difficult it must be – even with great preparation – to think on your feet under the pressure. It would have reduced me to a simpering whimpering snapped-synapse catatonia.
I didn’t think Ned looked any more nervous than Lieberman. I was surprised to see Lieberman looking down at his notes during his opening statement. Christ, that’s what rookies do. Ned is the rookie, not Joe. And Ned has fresh face appeal.
As for the attack dog stuff selling with the voters. I’m not so sure. People might have bought it with the Bush v. Kerry race. But look what it got them – four more years of Bush. Maybe some of them won’t fall for it again.
Maybe.
Chicago Dyke at 71 — Agree that Joe was more polished, which made his cheating, rude interruptions all the more jarring for me. Maybe it didn’t hit everyone else that way, but Lieberman clearly knew the terrain, and was deliberately trying to cheat his way around it — and I found that incredibly insulting.
Ned was more nervous. But I thought, for his first live tv debate and with stakes as high as they are, he acquitted himself well. He didn’t suck, or fall apart, and came across as genuine and decent and really concerned about real people’s issues.
Lieberman seemed concerned about keeping his job. And maybe that will be the difference.
Old Coastie and somebody else said:
” Ned was trying to get the issues out there and Joe spent most of his time trying to attack Ned…”
That’s page one in the Republican playbook. Also pages two through 500.
It’s fun to watch this pattern: The Dem talks about an issue, and The Repug talks about the Dem.
Every time. You could almost make a drinking game out of it.
I have never gritted my teeth so hard as when Lieberman was talking. Lieberman is such a liar.
Ned rocked!
NBC wants our opinions. There is a poll (Ned wins) and a form for writing opinoins:
http://www.nbc30.com/news/9471030/detail.html
Choosing style over substance got us Reagan and later, Little Boots. Substance is SO much more important, and I’m hoping and praying the voters of CT appreciate the difference.
On substance, Ned Lamont won, hands down. Lieberman was a bit more polished in his delivery, but who wants shiny, polished turds?
Ned did an amazing job! I thought Lieberman did OK. I might even call it a draw, were it a level playing field. (I only caught about 30 minutes of the debate).
However, Lieberman really needed a clear win to build any momentum into his campaign. That didn’t happen. Lamont held his own, and in doing so increased his name recognition and dispensed any notions of being a kook. Lieberman was not able to discredit him. That’s a pretty big victory for Lamont.
I think the C-Span break, showing the Lamont and Leiberman commercials may have helped Ned. For one thing, Leiberman’s ad is pure personal attack on Ned, and Ned’s never mentions Joe, just shows him as the regular guy who’s creating something better for the future (through the kids, his students). Also, the Ned ad showed last, giving him the last word. Leiberman’s ad totally negative, Lamont’s totally postive and forward-looking.
Sharkbabe I agree that Ned needs to be on the offensive–but so far he has been, big time, and HoJo is a sitting duck in that respect…
Just remember folks, whatever happens, we’ve already won. Everyone is paying attention to this race, and holy sh*t!! Even Joe Lieberman is protesting that he IS a Democrat and is hoisting his liberal flag!
Actually unseating HJ would be a MAJOR coup and I don’t count on it for a minute–but we’ve come very, very far already.
Anne @ 5:26 pm (#42) – Actually, I have the sound coming from a different direction than the video in this room, which creates an interesting situation. I can turn my head a little and just hear the sound. The remark I made about voice lessons in the last thread was a result of that.
Ned sounded shaky and nervous, especially at first. The butterflies kinda went away later, but he always sounded like a store owner who was doing his own TV ads, except for a few times when he clearly was either speaking from his heart or he was saying something he’s said many times.
Lieberman sounded polished most of the time. What he said didn’t always make sense, but then Rush Limbaugh rarely says anything that makes sense – he just sounds good doing it.
This isn’t necessarily bad for Lamont, but I don’t agree that he sounded better than Lieberman. If you go on radio voices, Lieberman was way ahead.
And Ned has fresh face appeal.
Or non-oatmeal face appeal…
@31
Aren’t the LieberYouth payed to be there?
The MSNBC poll just got even better:
Who won the Connecticut Senate debate? * 5597 responses
Joe Lieberman 18%
Ned Lamont 80%
It was a draw 1.9%
Lieberman said he was against an open-ended continuation of the war in Iraq.
How to avoid this?
Well, Lieberman, by refusing to advocate a timetable, leaves the decision entirely in the Bush Administration’s hands.
How non-open-ended of Lieberman.
Exactly Alice Marshall, thanks for fleshing out my thought about the term liberal democrat.
And thanks to Cozumel for the link, I just sent Ned some love.
punaise @ 86
You seem pretty fast on your feet around these parts . . .
When ole Cut ‘n Run was pulling out the old tried and tru “Flip Flop” strategy, I thought that Ned should have countered with “Why did you vote for Alito (when it counted) before you voted against him.”
BTW Leisure Guy was right!
local CT poll http://www.nbc30.com/news/9471030/detail.html
John Casper #71–
Yup, HJ’s record is going to hang round his neck like a noose til the 8th.
What Anne said at 5:26 pm!
Maybe the visual side of it (TeeVee) lent a halo of victory to Lieberman, but on lo-fi streaming audio, I’d say Lamont won this thing hands down.
And not just in the way that Kerry mopped the floor with Bush over the issues, but in a substantive, energetic, open and honest sort of way. I thought he did great.
Even Joe Lieberman is protesting that he IS a Democrat and is hoisting his liberal flag!
Is this going to force Joe to vote a little more… carefully until November, so as to not make his Republicanism quite so obvious?
punaise @87: Well said.
OH yeah, msnbc poll
Ned up a point, Joe down 80/18
Go! Vote!!
“There you go again.”
Dover B. picked that one on the last thread as something Reagan used in his debates. That is huge.
I hope the CT press feeds that to HoJo for the next month.
Lieberman was a bit more polished in his delivery, but who wants shiny, polished turds?
Beautiful. TheOtherWA wins tonight’s grassroots awards.
I went in hoping that Lieberman would repeat his pathetic debating of 2000( Cheney: I was glad to get out of big, wasteful govt. for the last 8 years and work in the private sector. Lieberman: silence. Why didn’t he say, “Yes, you worked for Halberton which made its money in contracts with the big wasteful govt. Guess, govt wasn’t so big and wasteful when it contracted with Halbertan, huh?”
But tonight Lieberman was well schooled in pushing his experience, seniority, independence, and that he votes 90% with the party. Lamont SHOULD have answered him point by point. EG Yes, you voted with the party against Alito when it didn’t make a difference and he would win with Rep. majority votes, but when it could have made a difference and you could have asserted your independence by voting to continue debate, you voted with the Repubs and some Dems to CUT OFF DEBATE.
Lamont looked like a schoolboy. He spoke of hopes and dreams trying to sound Kennedyesque, but he needed to give the 1960 line of Kennedy, “We can do better.” AND answer each of Lieberman’s major points which I stated above, DIRECTLY. LAMONT WAS NOT WELL COACHED. HE NEEDS TO BE READY WITH AMMUNITION NEXT TIME.
So I am not feeling so good tonight. Let’s hope that I am wrong in my analysis.
you would expect Joe to be more polished. he’s got 18 years experience. Ned is a novice and that works for him.
Eli 36
I generally like Craig Crawford, but he does speak exactly like Evil Uncle Chuckles, Pat Robertson.
That’s the results. To vote go here.
Didn’t read all the older threads so this may have been mentioned before. I’ll start by saying that I think Ned did well overall, gaining confidence as the debate wore on. A key of course will be the post debate media spin (hopefuly with the blogs debunking Lieberman’s BS). But the one thing that jumped out at me was that Lamont was outmaneuvered before the debate began. The way Lieberman was positioned relative to Lamont and the moderator/panel gave him a chance to look everybody in the eye at the same time. He was looking right into the camera as he was looking at Lamont and his questioner. Lamont on the other hand had to choose between Joe on his left, the camera straight ahead and the panel to his right. (OTOH, this may have accentuated the Joe’s smug and dismissive look )
Lieberman hearts Bush AND Reagan. There he goes again…
http://www.artistdirect.com/Im…..8k88f1.jpg
I haven’t been following this race closely (though I know the stakes, of course) but I watched the debate and I think Ned blew Lieberman away. The nerves, the suit, looking at the wrong camera, none of that made any difference. It really was Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.
He’s a very impressive candidate.
Ned has got to keep hammering the facts about the war – death, money and no end in sight. Joe supports it. Hang it around his neck and detonate it.
I generally like Craig Crawford, but he does speak exactly like Evil Uncle Chuckles, Pat Robertson.
It’s the nervous laughter after everything he says, it makes me uneasy.
“Feel free to document your own atrocities in the comments. “
oh, lieberman had a lot of atrocities…but did ned rebut them well? in my opnion, he was totally ineffective…holy joe ran right over him.
Ned has got to keep hammering the facts about the war – death, money and no end in sight. Joe supports it. Hang it around his neck and detonate it.
Does that play into Joe’s narrative that Lamont’s opposition is just about the war and nothing else?
little dog too @ 112 — you just totally put the harsh on my love of Craig Crawford.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5:35 pm (#88) – I got that visceral impression – that Joe ought to know better. How much was due to my knowing that he’s been at this for a long time, I can’t say, but I think it’s safe to say most Connecticut voters know who the incumbent is here.
Almost the first post-debate comment on MSNBC was “What’s up with Lieberman’s Reagan refrain: ‘There you go again’?”
As a debating line, it might have been a good one if he’d only used it once. Every time he repeated it, though, the blood pressure of every democrat who is upset with Joe for circulating his unemploym*nt ins*rance petitions went up five points. By the end of the debate, Ned’s GOTV folks must have been clapping with glee, because this kind of reaction will just make their job easier.
A refrain is a great thing to make your public speech memorable – but when you’re borrowing the refrain from someone a good chunk of your audience does not care for, that’s not the best strategy.
Frankly, it looked like amateur hour to me. Neither one of them showed any substance. I’m hoping for a Lamont win because I think that any rational person has to admit that Iraq has been a national disgrace. I guess most of the people who would take the time to watch the debate have already made up their minds anyway. I imagine the CT press will cover it as pretty much a draw. “Lieberman stands on his record and refuses to renounce Iraq position. Lamont pound Lieberman on coziness with Bush, blah, blah, blah.”
Our local state delegate debate was more substantive.
Now let’s stop the war!
jim
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5:35 pm (#88) – I got that visceral impression – that Joe ought to know better. How much was due to my knowing that he’s been at this for a long time, I can’t say, but I think it’s safe to say most Connecticut voters know who the incumbent is here.
If CT voters watching the debate know the score, Joe is toast for baldfaced lying. If they don’t know the score, they might think what Lieberman’s selling sounds pretty good, even if he is a bit of an asshole about it…
Cujo – interesting perspective. Admittedly, I didn’t start listening until about 20 minutes in, so I probably started listening as Ned was beginning to get more comfortable. I still think that what one sees affects how one hears – I just didn’t think Ned sounded as bad as those who were also able to see him.
Norske – you make a wonderful point – that with the national attention, many around the country got to see for themselves what the Democratic party is all about. I think it came across like a breath of fresh air blowing through the fetid rotteness of GOP politics, and all of Joe’s bragging about earmarks made him sound like quite the GOP gamer.
I wonder if Barbara Boxer and others tuned in to see the goings-on?
I can’t believe all this “Joe wasn’t a nice man so he lost!” He was a giant wiener against Cheney, and HE LOST. This wasn’t a persoanlity contest, and Lieberman killed Lamont in this thing. Can we stop looking at things with our hearts? Ned looked like a high school teacher who got lost on his way to Adults Night. I wish that asshole Lieberman had fought Cheney like this instead of kissing his ass.
It’s fucking amazing (and a clear indicator of the next four months) that the traditional national media was all over this. Jesus, no wonder Ned was a little shaky. Talk about zero to sixty!
He’ll continue to improve. He’s already pretty quick on his feet and not afraid to scrap. Joe will only become more sullen, churlish and interruptive.
having been burned again and again, i warn you all in the liberal blogosphere: don’t overesitmte your importance. yes, you can see truth. but so many others are slaves to propaganda. a majority, in fact. this is the lesson we must learn. joe did really well for himself tonight, and the number of people who know him vs the number who know jane & christy? as much as i wish it weren’t so…the sad news is, our side loses. for now, every time.
trust me, i’ve been doing this since before skippy invented the term, and then some. we’ve got a long, long, long way to go, babies/firepups.
Peterr @ 5:43 pm (#124) – “There you go again” isn’t a particularly popular phrase among Democrats anyway, and for someone who’s accused of being too cozy with Republicans to use it multiple times seems like a mistake to me.
Eli at 120: The war is the number one issue in all polling. Never mind what the pundits say. Play to the voters, not the media thesis.
NEED HELP FROM AN FDL REGULAR (TRUSTED USER).
Need to buy a domain and FAST in regards to tonight’s debate.
Email me at rayne_today (at) yahoo.com.
Thanks!!
Ned started off a bit fumbly but got better.
my observation as well -
ned came into his own stride about 15 minutes into the debate, and was then able to land some nice punches on joe after that -
ned won, because he did not either drool or throw up on stage.
all ned needed to do was to keep standing, sort of like Rocky in the first “Rocky” movie, and ned did that and more, he actually looked like a legitimate and viable contender after he found his stride.
joe needed to knock ned to the floor tonight, and joe failed to do that.
yes, ned missed several golden opportunities to hit joe, but remember, ned did not have to K-O joe tonight, all ned needed to do was to keep standing, which he did.
Did not get to watch or listen to the debate. Really glad to hear it here. My homeboy take on this discussion is that Ned did well and that Liberman came across as a “pro.” Will that tilt the race? Depends on what Ned does next. Liberman has fixed his position and his game plan. The outsider has shown he has moxie and is really … an outsider. That frame plays well, I think, nationally and locally. Don’t forget Tip O’Neill, “All politics is local.” Ned can make this happen in August AND November.
Whoot! Dems be brought back to life.
and please don’t hold it against me that i’m not sober and i shouldn’t be online. liveblogging (at my homepage) wiped me out. redd, pass that bacon, would you? i miss our vegas comforts.
Chalk me up in the Craig Crawford poll for “creepy.” Definitely.
Eli at 120: The war is the number one issue in all polling. Never mind what the pundits say. Play to the voters, not the media thesis.
It is huge, and I don’t mind him attacking on it – I just want him to make clear that it’s not the only thing Joe’s wrong on.
hartford 133: I agree. Joe didn’t hurt himself. But Ned proved he could play. Ned will pull even in the polls leading into August.
Oscarsmom >”…Just remember folks, whatever happens, we`ve already won. Everyone is paying attention to this race…we`ve come very, very far already.”
Exactly
Any war is won one small skirmish at a time & there are always set backs along the way; great day for “We the people…”
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” – Buckminster Fuller
The poll is now Ned 81%, Bag of donuts 17% draw 2%
I agree, chicago dyke, that we need to be clear-eyed and cling to the truth, but at the same time we can’t lose hope or buy into the lie of our own disempowerment.
Seems to me that this debate was carried nationally precisely because of the blogroots. If Lieberman pulls it out, it will hurt us, as the traditional media is setting this up as a grassroots v. beltway contest. If we lose, we pick ourselves up and knuckle down that much harder. This was never going to be easy, but it’s always been extraordinarily important.
WRT Iraq this debate is a prequel to the Dem. primary process in 2008.
my two cents:
Lieberman realized halfway through he was coming across too imperious and backed off as much as he could, which wasn’t much. Sounded whiney once or twice too often. He may have turned off a few dems hoping to see a strong reason to keep him.
Lamont was tightly wound up, but controlled his lack of experience rather well for a novice. He needs to watch the tape and learn a lot.
Both candidates realize how important and close this campaign is becoming. Neither comfortable with the National limelight many didn’t expect.
I score debate number one a draw.
chicago dyke at 135 — I hear ya. I’d be in bed if my e-mail box wasn’t filling up as fast as I can empty it out. LOL And here’s some juice, you could probably use the vitamin C. *g*
Peterr 101
You seem pretty fast on your feet around these parts . . .
no kleig lights, and I’m wearing pajamas.
After watching that debate I am now convinced that Lieberman’s consultants have internal polling data that shows they are toast in the Dem primary. I suspect that Leaverman’s performance tonight wasn’t so much for the Dem primary in Aug as it was for his Independent run in Nov. That Aug primary probably isn’t going to have a big turnout and it looks more and more like Lamont has all the “buzz” and that his supporters in CT are much more energized.
The next Quinnipiac poll should be out in a few days. I think it’s going to show a huge shift among likely Dem voters for Lamont.
The biggest thing for Ned is that he didn’t make any major gaffes in this debate (which I suspect is nothing like he’s ever had experience with before). It also helps that he looked senatorial and kept his cool under the rude attacks of Joenertia. Image plays with voters and had Ned been sweating like Albert Brooks in Broadcast News it wouldn’t have gone over very well.
I think we’ll be seeing a three-way in November.
Not really OT but this N Korea stuff is really putting the Mess-O-Potamia in harsh relief.
Bush actually accused the NKorean Leader of “not listening to anyone else in the world community” today. I couldn’t believe my ears.
Joe did nothing to sell himself. To me he came off as entitled, aloof, and that was just a mere formality. Ned wasn’t as polished, but he focused on issues and I think that will resonate with viewers.
I felt that I could relate to Ned more, and that Ned understands what the concerns are for everyday people.
I also like Ned’s question at the end. I think he set Joe up and Joe went for it, and came off as the pompous ass that Joe is.
WRT Iraq this debate is a prequel to the Dem. primary process in 2008.
If Joe wins, the Dems will conclude that supporting the war is a winning strategy.
If Joe loses, they’ll probably conclude that it was because he didn’t support the war enthusiastically enough…
I like reality – but pessimessim that we ‘lost’ is getting to me. Thin skinned maybe – but doubt the republicans roll over and say ‘oh we lost’. We like Lamont – so we fight for him, we believe that he is the better candidate, and we fight for every word he said tonight, and continue to point out Liberman’s lies.
Just sitting around saying ‘oh my’ isn’t getting the job done. Our guy is the better guy, he won the debate on issues that matter, so let’s move forward or get out of the way.
“Feel free to document your own atrocities in the comments.”
I’m not prepared to talk about mine just yet.
I got the impression Joe was talking to his future GOP and Independent voters and doesn’t really care WHAT the CT Dems think… what with invoking God and the Gipper and all.
Yo, Nick. I’ll perceive with my heart if I want to. I don’t care if Joe’s shit doesn’t stink. I support him because I believe he’s an honest man and will work hard for Connecticut.
NY Times 3/7/2005: Mr. Lieberman set off alarms within the party even before the State of the Union address. “This is an ongoing problem, and we’d be wise to deal with it,” Mr. Lieberman told The Hartford Courant in January when asked about Social Security. “If we can figure out a way to help people through private accounts or something else, great.”
Lieberman realized halfway through he was coming across too imperious and backed off as much as he could, which wasn’t much. Sounded whiney once or twice too often. He may have turned off a few dems hoping to see a strong reason to keep him.
He didn’t stop interrupting…
The next Quinnipiac poll should be out in a few days. I think it’s going to show a huge shift among likely Dem voters for Lamont.
Ooo, I can’t wait! There were all kinds of intriguing goodies in the last one, and I’m dying to see how the trends look.
I watched the debate and my bias says that Ned better fit my preferences.
Having said that, I’m am smart enough to know about my own biases. *g*
The real indicator of who won/lost will be the polls taken in CT over the next few days!
The folks in CT will have the final word!
As I was driving home tonight listening to Noron honkin’ out that awful laugh of hers, I got to thinking…
Joe Lieberman: nothing gets in the way of *his* Plan “B”…
e teller 143 – ditto. Ned has time to get better for the three way in Nov. But he does have that Jimmy Stewart thing going on. Don’t want him to get too slick.
Norm at 146 — he was playing an awful lot to the middle to right, wasn’t he? That was what the Hartford Courant journalist was saying in an interview right before the debate started on C-Span — that he and others from CT were going to keep a close eye on how he argued, to see if he was looking at the primary, or banking on his petitions. I’d say the petitions are more than a “just in case” maneuver from Lieberman’s performance this evening.
Argh! I support NED. (sorry)
Norm DePlume – great name!
As I was driving home tonight listening to Noron honkin’ out that awful laugh of hers, I got to thinking…
Joe Lieberman: nothing gets in the way of *his* Plan “B”…
It’s just a short ride to Rhode Island…
you nearly made me swoon, LindyH!
- The Democratic Party is holding on to the lead before this year’s congressional ballot in the United States, according to a poll by Rasmussen Reports. 47 per cent of respondents would support the Democratic candidate in their congressional district, while 34 per cent would vote for the Republican contender.
http://www.angus-reid.com/poll…..emID/12460
I think in the Lieberman camp this debate will be perceived as a defeat. Ned held up under pressure and did not resemble the lunatic Joe obviously believes he is.
If Tom Kean had done as well in his debate with Bobby Menendez, republicans here in New Jersey would be ecstatic.
ummm …. take your tummy medicine NOW … the Preznit and his lovely wifey are coming up on CNN right now
Eli – would that really be fair to Rhode Island?
There’s a few different ways we could win this, apart from the vote on the 8th:
RE: the internal polling–I think the fact that no Dems have come out for Joe exclusively is another indication of serious trouble for HJ–
Also, he may well quit before the primary, if he wants to go Indy. That will definitely be spun as a HUGE Lamont coup.
RE: the actual primary vote, I’ll bet you anything that turnout is the key, and anti-Joes are MUCH more motivated to turn out and get others to turn out than the pro-Joes.
Shame on Joe.
Flame on, Ned!
game on.
Eli, lina, wrt the
WarOccupation, IMO again Ned’s handlers failed him. The soundbyte imo is something like, “in WWII, it didn’t take this long to get to D-Day.”Eli – would that really be fair to Rhode Island?
He could replace Linc. Tosser tossup.
WEST HARTFORD, Conn. — U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, facing his first primary challenge in his 18-year Senate career, sought to distance himself from the Bush administration Thursday night in the only scheduled debate with Democratic primary challenger Ned Lamont.
The debate, on WVIT-TV, paired off Connecticut’s junior senator with a stronger than expected challenger who has made Lieberman’s support for the Iraq war the centerpiece of his campaign.
http://www.stamfordadvocate.co…..local-wire
I am glad so many people are picking up on HoJo’s interrupting. Ned handled it very well, but the CT media has to hold HoJo accountable.
The Courant running the same exact story as the one above. http://www.courant.com/news/po…..lines-home
OOH! OOH! msnbc poll
Lamont up TWO
Lieb down TWO
82 to 16
GO! VOTE!
From Lamont’s official website debate headquarters page:
“Senator Lieberman stormed out of the debate early, barely answering questions from the local media. He was hearing a lot about his anger during the debate and called it a day. Ned stuck around for questions for about 20 minutes. The result… Sean Smith, Senator Lieberman’s campaign manager, fielding questions from a single repoter and Ned swamped by the press.”
I have seen a number of sources saying Lieberman seemed angry after the debate.
do Leiberman supporters even have computers to vote in those polls?
(ouch)
J Casper at 170: I’d keep hitting the fact that the Iraqi government wants our soldiers out of there. Mission accomplished. Let’s go home.
We know the reality of Iraq is it’s a lost cause, but a candidate can’t say that.
The thing that impressed me the most was the incredible entitlement that Jeo Lieberman exudes. He was behaving as though Ned was a pesky mosquito, maybe trying to use arrogance to make a point with voters. I think he really believes what he said in the closing statements “We’ve cried together..”. Um, not recently Joe, the citizens are the ones who are crying. I am not worried about the spit and polish part, I think that voters who care are more than ready for a candidate who says what he means, rather than what he is expected to say. Joe can spout about his 18 years, but the voters know just what he has and hasn’t done, particulary with all the attention the race has been getting. Re: Neds money, if he knows how to manage it well enough to get rich like he has, I trust him to help Congress figure out how to fix the clusterf**k we are facing now.
Cut’n Run Joe is at it again, huh ?
That would have been me, who just today registered with a party affiliation for the first time in my life so I can vote for Mr. Lamont. For Senator Lieberman to seriously (?) suggest that Lamont would lose a general election while running as the Democratic candidate (in CT!) is just one more statement that proves how out of touch he is.
For the Senator to suggest that Mr. Lamont is putting the Democratic party in jeopardy while it is he, Senator Lieberman, WHO HAS VOWED TO RUN AGAINST THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE should he lose the primary, is just insulting to the voters.
And for him to stand and pretend that an endorsement from the Planned Parenthood national PAC (who does not score votes on judicial nominees, nor – unfortunately – misogynistic bullshit about rape victims not enduring additional hardship by being forced to seek healthcare at a hospital that doesn’t discriminate) should enrage all CT women as much as it does me.
It is seriously time to dump joe.
Best statement that should have been, but wasn’t said when Joe repeatedly interrupted:
“Madam moderator – the Senator once again refuses to play by the rules he agreed to for this debate, just as he refuses to follow the rules of the upcoming primary election. He has stated openly that he will refuse to listen to the voice of the Connecticut voters in the upcoming primary if things do not go in his favor and will try to split the democratic vote by running as an Independent. The people of Connecticut know that this country is plagued by a President that thinks he is above the law and that thinks he can break whatever laws or rules he sees fit. And as the Supreme Court ruling this week suggests, we need Senators and Congresspeople in Washington to reel in this administration and provide oversight so that our American rights and values are protected. However, as we have seen here tonight and over the past 6 years Senator Lieberman feels he to can break whatever rules he himself put in place and disregard the will of the people of Connecticut. We deserve and should demand better.”
Well, unfortunately, I believe Mr. Lamont lost tonight. And, he didn’t even come close. Some details:
1. his eyes: classic “deer caught in the headlights” look. Don’t know if it was nerves, studio lights, or what. But it made Mr. Lamont look timid.
2. his shoulders: girl shoulders. Not at all manly. Has Mr. Lamont ever spent time down at the weight room? He needs to.
3. Debate content: Mr. Lamont got in a few shots, but mostly fumbled when he had a chance to score.
(a) Iraq: he needs to trumpet Murtha….over and over. Mr. Lamont just didn’t seem to have a good grasp of the facts/arguments on Iraq. I KNOW he understands the issues, but it didn’t come thru.
(b) Plan B: well, it seems this ought to be a HUGE area for Lamont. But he never put it out in plain, simple language. This is an issue to beat Lieberman over the head…repeatedly.
(c) tax returns: huh? Lieberman asked a VERY simple question. Why couldn’t Lamont just, in a forthright manner….answer the question! Another bad fumble.
(d) all of Lieberman’s interruptions: look, I know it was rude. But when you’re the challenger, you’ve got to KNOCK-OUT the champ. Lamont was waaaay too soft and nice. When a jerk like Lieberman keeps interrupting, shout him down! Get in his face! I’ll give Lamont partial credit for his Fox salvo.
And so, while I think Lamont is right on the issues, I’m afraid he got his ass handed to him tonight.
Ghostman
Don’t see how Lieberman can run as an Independent. He has no organization. Local Democrats will want to support their congressional candidates and it will be too complicated to support the Dem Congressional candidate and an Indy for Senate. YOu can’t just throw an organization together overnight. Of couse Lieberman & his consultants have so little respect for the grassroots they may no even know what they have been getting all these years.
punaise @ #178
Yeah they got computers, but the tubes in those computers can’t handle the load. Just ask Sen. Ted Stevens.
FUCK LIEBERMAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That was one of the most arrogant, slimy, putrid displays in a debate I’ve ever seen. Fuck Joe Liberman what a fucking asshole that man is. I’ve never seen someone more full of himself.
6th Day Add vent: JoHo vas Witless
I was thinking the same as one of the posts above — Ned has a nice Jimmy Stewart “MR SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON” vibe about him whereas Holy Joe is pure Claude Rains arrogance – smug, put-out at even having to put in an appearance at this whipper snapper who dare to challenge his throne.
Senator Lieberman stormed out of the debate early, barely answering questions from the local media. He was hearing a lot about his anger during the debate and called it a day. Ned stuck around for questions for about 20 minutes. The result… Sean Smith, Senator Lieberman’s campaign manager, fielding questions from a single repoter and Ned swamped by the press.
http://nedlamont.com/blog
Ned does not wear shoulder implants, so? Joe is totally fake and a liar and is a weakling in person– I have met him numerous times and he’s no manly man or weightlifter.
not that it would matter to me wrt politicians or anyone else for that matter.
i care what’s in the heart and the head and in the actions.
So here’s a YooTube kinda video idea: Debate 101. how to score points.
It refers to a page like this: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html
Lesson #1. Ad hominem attack.
Then show Joe Lieberman with his examples of them (I’ll let others fill it in; I’ve only been reading the text, hadn’t watched more than one clip)
Lesson 2.
Example: Joe Lieberman’s repetitive statement: Who is Ned Lamont? Who is Ned Lamont? (in one of those Daily Show “9-11″ “9-11″ “9-11″ “9-11″ set of clips)
I don’t know where this should go for a conclusion, tho. But with some whimsical background music or something, it could be funny, and thereby de-claw Unctuous Joe.
Ghostman:
you’re wrong on all counts except for the Murtha thing.
As was said before, the Mr. Smith persona WORKS for Ned.
The Bring it On macho stuff is red state choreography. We’re in Connecticut here.
Sorry, major connectivity problems here. Back soon…
CHS and Norm de Plume –
Let me be the first: NORM! (passing a beer down the bar . . .)
I think you’re both right that Joe’s looking at November, not August. The “There you go again” line had to have been part of a strategy to turn the November race into Ned vs Joe, with Joe selling himself as the candidate “every good Republican needs to vote for, to stop Lamont, because the republican candidate can’t win but I can.” That line sure won’t help him in August, and Joe’s been around too long for it to have been a slip.
Eli wrote::
I think you oversimplify some, but are not to far from the truth. It breaks my heart. And even if Lamont wins it, the Dems who have been somewhat supportive of the war, or not really strongly against it are stuck with their positions or they’ll get labeled as “afraid of Howard Dean” the way Kerry was. We need more guys like John Edwards to stand up and say “Only an idiot can support this war, and I was an idiot.” It isn’t an easy position to take, I think we can all agree. We really need to pound the substance of the issue, not blather on about the “kiss” and other nonsense.
I have to agree on the financial statement, Ned had a chance to respond and could have simply corrected what Joe stated. But he can correct this in interviews and on his site; there will clearly be many interviews and opportunities for further clarification.
Hi Matt. Go get yourself connected.
Jamie @ 6:08 pm (#186) – I keep telling those guys “Really, transistors are the way to go!”. But do they listen?
If we had only a transcript, there’d be no question at all who won this debate — Ned all the way. He needs practice with a good acting/speech coach, true, but as folks have already noted, he’s got that little-boy/Jimmy Stewart freshness-and-integrity goin’ on.
JoHo came across as untrustworthy, smarmy, overbearing, and rude. And well-practiced in all those behaviors.
I know which one I trust. Now to hear from the Nutmeggers.
I have worked on many losing campains and eveyone felt they won the debate. You have to run scared until the election is over.
Joe may not have scored points with us but how did he do with retired voters?
jim preston at 195: No. We need to nominate someone who was against the war from the start. All fine and well for Edwards, but why should I ever trust his judgment again?
Some snips from an opednews article:Why is Joe Lieberman Supported by Sean Hannity, George Bush, and the Republican Party
snip
Now why would Hannity get behind Joe? Why would he say good things about Joe? It’s easy. Joe is a reliable supporter for Bush and the Republican agenda. Joe is a Bush apologist who saves Bush and the senate from splitting strictly along partisan lines, so Republicans can say the extremist legislation they introduce and pass is bipartisan.
Joe is an enabler for right wing extremists to go further to the right.
Hannity talks warm and fuzzy about Joe Lieberman because Lieberman is buddy buddy with Sean, appearing on his show as an affable, agreeable guest, backing up the Republican talking points. Hannity gives Lieberman a pass, of course, and that way, Lieberman seems like a well trained, “good” democrat. Then, Hannity can go after Lieberman’s detractors– the rest of the Democratic party, all those disgusing liberals who are proceeding in the “Michael Moorization” of the Democratic party.
Hannity uses Lieberman as an excuse to bash the majority of the politicians and people in the Democratic party.
snip
By the end of the debate, I’m feeling better than before about Lamont. He’s not as polished as Lieberman, but he hasn’t run for vice president or three times for senator before either. Overall, Lieberman came across as a bit desperate, getting nasty, repeating the same talking point too often, claiming pride in being an old school politician, pride in playing the political game that Lamont said it is time to get rid of.
In the debate, Lieberman asked, repeatedly, “Who is Ned Lamont.” Lamont really didn’t answer. He didn’t have an answer and he should. it’s not hard to do. An effective candidate will have stories from his life that define and portray who he is– in a way that touches people’s hearts.
Lamont has a WAY to go as a campaigner. He does need to more clearly define who he is. But we already know who Lieberman is, and it is TIME for Lieberman to go.
Next incumbent to dump– Charles Schumer. (Well, not NEXT, but high on the list.)
http://www.opednews.com/articl…..berman.htm
LMAO @ Cujo359
PoliticsTV has the videos up of the debate now:
http://www.politicstv.com/blog/?p=348
Best Ned line: This isn’t Fox News.
Angie, I’m truly sorry. Here I was feeling all righteous and fed up with sleaze and all…I didn’t mean to put you through changes.
To Mad Dogs at 157:
Like you, I’m interested in seeing how the CT voter polls shake out over the next few days.
In the meantime, how on earth do we move the national and CT media beyond the idea that Lamont’s traction is all about the war? It’s driving me bats.
lina, 193: I hope you’re right!
Ghostman
I ventured over to Josh-land (TPM Cafe)- a decidedly less Ned-centric venue – to browse the comments. Here are a few snippets.
Progress on msnbc poll
Lamont up again
Lieb down again
83 to 15 woo woo
GO! VOTE! IMPORTANT!!
Some constructive criticism of Lamont – or actually more of a suggested rebuttal to a Lieberman charge. In response to Lamont’s charges that Lieberman was too willing to cuddle up with the Bush Administration, Lieberman made the claim that if someone has a similar goal you should not oppose them just because they are of the other party. I believe Ned should have (or should in the future) responded by reminding people that just because two people share the same end goal does that not mean that they have the same (or equally valid) plans to achieve that result. As an exanmple, 99% of Americans would like to see a free and democratic Middle East, but there are many people who did not believe that invading Iraq was the correct way to reach that goal. Given our President’s history of poor governing and poor decision making, I would be very wary of supporting any of his suggestions without seeing the details to make sure he has a reasonable plan to actually achieve the goal.
I was surprised that Leaverman did not actually come out and say the words “flip-flopper” – cause that was a big part of his
attackargument.I’ve heard that before I think. Lessee, who was it…?
mrs. marks 206:
Embrace it. The was is biggest geopolitical strategic blunder in U.S. history. It has bankrupted the U.S. treasury and decimated the U.S. military. It is Vietnam on steroids.
DON’T RUN AWAY FROM THIS ISSUE. NEVER MIND WHAT THE PUNDITS SAY ABOUT THE RACE.
Okay, I’ve gone back through my tivo of the debate again and watched just the openings and closings — which really is a lot of what people remember about the debates, with the Q&A portions as the filler where they go get another beer or some chips, or perhaps go potty.
Anyway, having watched them for a second time to make sure it wasn’t just my bias showing through, Lieberman was a whining, pompous ass in his opening, who was astonished at having to participate in a Democratic primary with a sort of “how dare you” sneer on his face. And his closing was, by and large, a personal attack on Ned Lamont and an order to the people of Connecticut to vote for him (or else they won’t continue to get those lobbyist earmarks of which he was so proud, I suppose…).
Ned’s opening was a little shaky to start, but after he took a deep breath about a third of the way in, he found his feet and acquitted himself well. His closing was much, much better — and was very positive, touching on issues that real people who actually live in CT (and not in the DC beltway) care about.
All in all, and it may be my bias, I was left with the impression that Ned Lamont was someone that I’d like to get to know better, and Joe Lieberman is someone I would never want to invite over for dinner. I could have a beer with Ned, never with Lieberman — he just came across as angry at having to be there.
Donate to the Lamont campaign
We’re up to $35,000 from fdl alone! Let’s make it $40,000!
Polls/donations updates –
MSNBC 7252 responses
Lieberman 15%
Lamont 83%
nbc30.com 4061 reponses
Lieberman 20%
Lamont 80%
ActBlue
Lamont total $256,017.37
FDL $35,335.90
As the headlines around Connecticut have demonstrated this week, Joe Lieberman, you are a pioneer in the art of trying to have it both ways.
Are you Democrat? An Independent? What the heck are you? In the debate tonight, you sounded like a Bush Republican.
But it goes deeper than just that. Having it both ways is the only way you will have it.
You said that a timeline for Iraq is “dumb.” But you also said you don’t “want to be there indefinitely.” Joe, what is the opposite of indefinitely? Or do you actually have a date in mind, but don’t think the voters in Connecticut deserve to hear what it is?
When John Murtha first spoke up, retired generals joined him and the Democrats were beginning to find a voice on Iraq. But you didn’t just say they were wrong… You said they were threatening America by undermining Bush’s credibility. You took a page out of Karl Rove’s book, painted your fellow Democrats as a threat to America and stifled the debate. Now you want to stand there, at a moment of accountability to the voters, and tell your constituents that Ned Lamont and the Democrats are trying to silence you? Who do you think you are kidding?
You praised the Supreme Court for it’s Hamdan decision, but because of your Gang of 14, that might be the last time the court ever stands against unchecked executive power. You also have some nerve praising the Court for standing up to the president’s illegal actions when you and your colleagues abdicated your own responsibility to act as a check on that power.
You complained that Congress is filled with partisanship, claimed you know how to reach across the aisle and then tried to bash Lamont for working with local Republicans.
Staying the course in Iraq is wrong. You want to stick with a failed policy because there is uncertainty in the alternative. Sounds like a metaphor for the campaign you are running.
chicago dyke @ 130
Right!
The suggestion that we can relax (whether you think Ned was a clear winner, held his own, lost by decision, or got smoked due to territorial disadvantages) is a typical Dem mistake.
Lieberman = yesterday’s mashed potatoes
Ned = fresh faced Jimmy Stewart
“We know the reality of Iraq is it’s a lost cause, but a candidate can’t say that”
lina, I completely agree.
I think there are practical issues about how exactly we withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, but I am convinced that everyday we stay, hurts us, hurts the Iraqi’s, and further destabilizes the ME. We have made the situation much worse than it was and that’s saying a lot.
I think there were a lot of different ways for Ned or any candidate to go. Since even the Congressional Dems cannot agree, it’s too much to expect a candidate. With that said, it was disappointing that Ned’s staffers did not have him prepared for the timetable vs no timetable debate. That’s a big issue within the wider one of ME diplomacy, but evidently, they have been allowing him to stray off message on that. That’s what he pays them to do.
The only thing Ned Lamont lost tonight was his debating virginity, against a rude, arrogant and “I loves me some earmarks” Republican wanna-be.
This is the second time Lieberman has gone away miffed – he huffed away from his presser the other day when someone had the audacity to ask him about the internal polling. Tonight, he huffed away again. Don’t think that will go unnoticed.
Lamont didn’t have to land all his punches – people are smart enough to fill in some of the blanks.
Lamont lost? I don’t think so, and I’m betting that for Lieberman, the fight is just about over. If he loses in August, I think someone’s going to sit on him and make him bow out as gracefully as he can, so that the people of Connecticut can have the real Democrat their votes will indicate they want.
I’m with srgtick #185! LOL
That’s pretty much what I was yelling at the TV, between numerous snorts and groans.
wxyz@177: that says it all. Ned was supposed to have played the part of the Moonbat Liberal: clueless, humorless, bereft of convictions, inarticulate, a fool. He didn’t play the part. It was supposed to have been easy for Joe–a walk in the park. It wasn’t.
Joe’s “message” seems to be that the sun won’t rise in Connecticut if he isn’t returned to Congress. I don’t think that’s going to cut it.
Anne – If he loses in August, I think someone’s going to sit on him and make him bow out as gracefully as he can, so that the people of Connecticut can have the real Democrat their votes will indicate they want.
ain’t gonna happen. grace and humility are foreign to Joe. it’s all about him.
Jim at 111
If ProgressivePunch is accurate, on ALL ISSUES Lieberman votes at only 76.43% and is #39 on the the list, with only 5 Dems under him; Carper, Lincoln, Landrieu, Baucus and Ben Nelson.
A dismal progressive voting record. Let’s call him on it!
The things that stuck out for me:
-Leiberman interupting
-Leiberman complaining that Lamont is running adds against him. (I did not understand that, who else should Lamont berunning ads against?)
-Lamont saying that he would not appease the WH
-Lamont saying earmarks should be abolished.
Joe saying vote for me b/c my seniority can bring home the bacon (it was such a crass appeal to voter individual self interest. Almost like buying a vote)
-Joe repaeting “who is Ned LAmont?” which was a mistake b/c Lamont was right there and all he had to do was not suck. And he did not suck.
The only places I thought Joe scored direct hits were the issue of all these republican consultants. What’s up with that?
ANd I don’t know why Lamont ducked the release the tax returns questions. Either say OK or say don’t waste my time (or FU–but more politely). Ducking looks spineless and Lamonts real platform is not the war, not the rape gurney, not the environemnt or earmarks. Lamonts real platform is I AM A VERTIBRATE!
vote for spine.
FWIW, I think Ned came across as a citizen who wants to be elected to represent the people, not as a polished, smarmy, glib politician–what’s wrong with that? He comes across as sincerely believing in the importance of a senator working for the people who elected him (/her). I believe that is what a lot of people want to hear. Very few people in his position would have done as well.
I know it would be wonderful for another articulate JFK-type to materialize from the grassroots, but Ned is genuine and the polish will come. According to MSNs John Harwood -thanks for the name Angie – HoJo reminded him of the petulant candidate in a movie – not a very flattering assessment of Joes debate style. Also, Joes constant interrupting made him look like a boorish bully.
Would be interested to know the true origin of “Penman” who made so many anti-Ned comments on the last thread.
Anne 158
How do you drive and watch teevee?
Or were you hearing Whora’s laff in your mind’s ear?
If ProgressivePunch is accurate, on ALL ISSUES Lieberman votes at only 76.43% and is #39 on the the list, with only 5 Dems under him; Carper, Lincoln, Landrieu, Baucus and Ben Nelson.
I wonder if that’s with or without correcting for all the times he voted for cloture and then voted against the bill/nominee. It’d be nice if there was a way to weight close votes more heavily than blowouts…
and your little dog…I have XM Radio and LOVE it.
Dover B at 217 –
you are hit the nail square on the head!!!
Adjust that post slightly and send it as a letter to the editor in papers across CT.
My impressions were exactly that as well, Christy.
It is hard to tell through the Xtreme Holy-Joe-hating glasses plastered to my face.
OOPS – Re #227, the last sentence was my opinion’s, not Harwoods…
ok
I’m a southern gal watching from afar.
Clearly, JoeL positioned himself as a Republican.
my question to you, who clearly are watching this more closely than I am, is this:
What are the rules for cross-over votes in CT.
Can the Republicans cross over and vote in the Dem. primary?
It seems to me that those crossovers are the people that JoeL tried to speak to.
So, can they swamp the primary and vote against Ned?
Lieberman confirmed tonight that he’s willing to go as negative as possible in order to win. Lamont did a decent job holding his own — I hope he’s ready for an increasingly ugly fight ahead. How will it play in CT?
“Penman” was a first-time poster tonight …
What are the rules for cross-over votes in CT.
Can the Republicans cross over and vote in the Dem. primary?
No.
(I’m still amazed that *any* state party would allow the opposition to have a say in picking their nominee…)
punaise – you may be right. He may go down swinging, and acting like the cry-baby he is, but I think the party honchos are going to ask him if that’s how he wants to be remembered, and his vanity will get to him.
just scrollin’ through, let me concur that whoever won, complacency is the enemy. Is there anythign out of staters can do to help with get out the vote, besides give more, which I plan to do?
ALso, I saw a rumor here today that Boxer had backed out of campaigning for Joe: Any more info on that?
John Casper 219:
I agree Ned has to find a position on Iraq and stay with it. I’d suggest the Murtha plan. And every time you cite the Murtha plan, remind everyone of Murtha’s credentials on defense matters. And remind everyone that Bush, Lieberman, et. al. did not listen to military experts when they embarked on this disaster. There are so many cogent points to make on Iraq, it shouldn’t be hard to find a media message and stay on it relentlessly.
“Penman” was a first-time poster tonight …
There’s a shock. Sorry I missed the Penmanshit.
I hope Ned knows how little we care about his financial situation. Put it out there and let Joe talk about it–it won’t hurt you a bit.
Fantasy debate, tax return answer:
“Joe, I know that every chance you get you vote to support President Bush as he violates the privacy of Americans. I expected nothing less than your request that I turn over my family’s personal information to you. Do you support the government revealing the tax returns of everyone in this audience? In this State?”
He may go down swinging, and acting like the cry-baby he is, but I think the party honchos are going to ask him if that’s how he wants to be remembered, and his vanity will get to him.
Oh, his vanity will get to him all right.
looseheadprop @226: somewhere on the ned lamont blog: “An adman who got Paul Wellstone elected to the senate and an independent consultant who Lieberman falsely claimed was a Republican”
wxyz,
Yep, this is where the debate goes from being a political event to being the springboard for a crapload of spin and media-induced revisionist history. We have to make sure the message that gets out is the real deal.
Ned might not be a polished three-term Senator, but Lieberman has grown too comfortable lying for the cameras.
Anne 239 – I prefer your scenario to mine
I hope Ned knows how little we care about his financial situation. Put it out there and let Joe talk about it–it won’t hurt you a bit.
Who has more campaign money? I’m pretty sure it’s Joe, and Lamont should hammer that every time Joe brings up money, *and* hammer where Joe’s money comes from.
Karen in Texas:
Joe is running as an independent anyway. Then Republicans can (and will) vote for him. Even if Ned wins the primary, he’s got a long way to go to win the general.
1,202 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOES ON AND ON AND…
For those who need more evidence of a Lamont victory here tanight jest look at Lieberfascist’s behavior after the debate: instead of stayin around and gettin’ prime time with the media who count in the primary, Joeloser stomped off and his campaign manager took questions from ONE reporter.
This is HUGE folks…Lieberman knows he has lost the local/state media and is mad as hell. He is righteously and truely fucked now. If he stays in the primary race (as he should to keep himself infront of the media thru August) he riskes gettin’ the shit kicked outta him and pumpin’ up the “liberal Democrat” vote while losin’ the independents. And if he bows out now he will be comic relief by September.
Look for Joe to bow out of the primary and declare himself a moderate Republican while runnin as an independent. I think history is about ta give us one a those “poetic irony” moments…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PUT UP YER UMBRELLA, THE SHIT IS REALLY GUNNA COME DOWN NOW!!
I hope Ned knows how little we care about his financial situation. Put it out there and let Joe talk about it–it won’t hurt you a bit.
Who has more campaign money?
and who had a fundraiser hosted for him by two of DC’s most prominent GOOPER bagmen? Not Ned.
Jim 240
ALso, I saw a rumor here today that Boxer had backed out of campaigning for Joe: Any more info on that?
see hartford_for_lamont at #85
Only registered democrats can vote in the primary. I got my husband to change his registration from independent to D a number of years ago so he could vote in primaries — indies have no part in shaping the contest.
monitoring the nbc30 discussion and leaving comments, it’s about 70/30 lamont/lieberman. They are into the appearance thing and felt Neds jitters, but some are just a little dense. There’s one troll, too.
imman,
That whole tax return thing was a big “so what” to me. Non issue.
looseheadprop @226: somewhere on the ned lamont blog: “An adman who got Paul Wellstone elected to the senate and an independent consultant who Lieberman falsely claimed was a Republican”
I remember reading a pretty thorough debunking of one of Joe’s earlier “A Republican is running Ned’s campaign!” charges a few weeks ago (Courant, maybe?).
Frankly, I don’t really care if Ned has hired ex-Republicans. He should cite them as evidence of how even Republicans have become fed up with Bush’s disastrous failed policies.
Karen’s question is sort of Texas idiosyncratic — As far as I know, unlike Texas, there are no day-of-primary crossovers allowed in Connecticut.
lina at 202,
You missed my point on Edwards. As I’ve been saying for years now, all the people who were completely and tragically wrong about Iraq should go to the back of the room and listen to the people like Dennis Kucinich who have been right all along. That being said, I have more respect for someone like Edwards who admits he was wrong than people like Bush and Lieberman who have the nerve to act like we should still respect their judgement. (not that I ever did)
Here’s the bottom line: Bush has totally f*cked up this country with that f*cking war and now N Korea is f*cking with us and JOE LIEBERMAN HELPED HIM THE WHOLE WAY ALONG.
Are we going to continue to allow Bush to f*ck us up, or are we going to say enough already! And put some people in Congress that will act as a f*cking check already??
End of rant.
thanks for the answer.
I’m glad that it’s no.
I thought that Joe looked stuck-up.
I watch body language closely. HoJo (love that name) was looking down his nose (literally) for much of the debate.
It is clear that he was prepped by Republicans.
fyi,
I crossed over to sign petition for Scotty’s Mom to run for Gov. of TX as an independent. I just love that Rick (good hair) Perry is getting some internal flack.
But that’s another story for an other day.
jim preston: I also have more respect for people who admit mistakes. I just don’t want them on the ticket in 2008.
Other WA at 81
You can’t polish a turd…
If Joe is so good at getting Ct money why are we 49 of 50 in Federal $$?
One of Ned best lines. 18 years of effort and this is where Ct is…49th.
Imm at 244
That IS the fantasy answer. So, Imm, next year can we run you for sumpin’? I could groove on an Imm debate.
this party is starved for quality candidates
you’re a new yorker aren’t you?
http://nedlamont.com/news/425/…..nto-gutter
Joe is wrong about the “republicans” working for Ned. But either way… he’s the one bragging about being able to work across party lines. Why is it ok for him but not for his opponent? He’s always trying to have it both ways. He’s above the rules.
As to the debate earlier tonight, it wasn’t as satisfying as I’d like. But then I have been called a “bad-mannered know-nothing radical”. So I guess I’d like to see a bit more exuberance from those sharing my viewpont from these so-called debates. I must say though, that I think there are a lot of commenters here that could have done a much better job on Joey. The show did harden my dislike for Lieberman however. Such a rude, petulant individual, and so very full of himself. I hope Lamont eventually carries the day. I believe him to be a good man. So, oration be damned. We’re in the mess we’re in because we don’t have many good men and women in politics. Statespersons are what we need badly, not silver-tongued greasy pols like the ones running this country, and the world into the ground.
‘Why don’t you pass the time with a game of solitaire, Joe?’
;>)
this party is starved for quality candidates
you’re a new yorker aren’t you?
What are you doing in 2010?
I cannot believe that HoJo was as stupid as to desert the press after the debate. They are just getting ready to write their stories and he leaves his campaign manager there to talk to them? That is absolutely primmafuckingdonna nuts.
That’s self-destruction.
darkblack cuts to the chase, once again
Bush on CNN about Lieberbaby: “you are trying to get me to give him a kiss-of-death”
I cannot believe that HoJo was as stupid as to desert the press after the debate
HoJo just deserts
Phil,
“One of Ned best lines. 18 years of effort and this is where Ct is…49th.”
Thus exposing the myth that all “experience” is good ; )
joe said everything he should have to enable him to confirm he is the reptilian candidate for independency in a democratic republican party
If Joe is so good at getting Ct money why are we 49 of 50 in Federal $$?
One of Ned best lines. 18 years of effort and this is where Ct is…49th.
CT would be 50th without Joe’s masterful stewardship!
(I mean, jeez, for all the sucking up to the Republicans he does, he can’t even ask for anything in return???)
Lieberman most likely lost this debate in a big way, for a simple reason. Incumbents don’t debate challengers. Lieberman was weak for having to be in the debate and he needed to destroy Lamont for the debate to do any good for Lieberman. He clearly failed to do that.
At the very least, this debate was a wash and does not help Lieberman. It also does not hurt Lamont. I think it will take a few days to see how much it helps Lamont, but I think the primary objective of Lamont controlling the terms of the campaign has succeeded.
LHP,
Thanks man, I have that fantasy too, but my rather rambunctious past is certainly a hurdle :~)
And, I am in Massachusetts right now and the last thing this State needs is more Dem candidates. Except, of course, Deval Patrick!
If I go back to Texas, I will serve.
“Bush on CNN about Lieberbaby: “you are trying to get me to give him a kiss-of-death”
Alrighty then!!! I defacto endorsement from the PREZ : )
24 and 257
thank you both so much. problem is, most of the folks watching that debate are not blog readers and will never read Lamont’s website.
lamont needed to do his own debunking right then in there. He never contradicted holyjoe.
So, the damage is done. I read this blog almost every day and usually several times a day. If I missed the debunking, how about mr. and mrs. largely disintersted voter? Do we believe they are better informed than a regular FDL reader?
John Casper @ 271,
pair that with the fact that even Noron O’Colonic thought Ned was impressive, and you have a not-so-good night for Joe.
Terre @6:27. That’s HUGE.
If true, that needs to be played and played and played.
He votes worse than 38 Dem Senators.
And he’s from CT! I’m from CT, and for the most part we are Big D Democratic. In CT Joe is a Republican.
side note – We don’t have many holy rollers here (where Ann C. got all fucked up leaves me clueless. I have lots of friends from New Canaan. She must have been really miserable before her sex change)
larry : the death of ken lay
W: yeah, yeah. i hope his heart is right with the lord. i knew him pretty well. i got to know him when we both supported ann richards.
got to know him, got to re…(i swear, he was gonna say respect and stopped short!), he betrayed the trust of shareholders.
neither him nor the lump have spoken to the wife, they’ll write her a letter. (real Xian of them, eh?)
larry: will you support lieberman as an independent? you do like him?
w: you’re trying to get me to give him a kiss that could be his political death. (not verbatim– sorry my jaw dropped and fingers went numb)
puppethead 276 —
as they say in the valley – totally.
“Bush on CNN about Lieberbaby: “you are trying to get me to give him a kiss-of-death”
Um. Hasn’t that ship already sailed?
there are no day-of-primary crossovers allowed in Connecticut…
No, in CT a voter registration (with party affiliation) must be received five days before a primary.
Anne 231
Aha! My kids gave me XM for Christmas, but somebody hasn’t installed it in my car yet.
I cannot believe that HoJo was as stupid as to desert the press after the debate.
more than anything else, that is what convinces me that Lieberman thinks he lost the debate.
Folks are saying Joe’s appeal was to the Nov Indy run. I agree. Ned won by just being on the same stage and holding his own. He does have that ‘true, honest, caring citizen’ vibe that will help immediate polling and towards Aug 8.
In my view, ANY credible ‘outsider’ is a winner this cycle. Across the nation, and across parties.
Go Ned!
Eli in 270
Why do you have plans for 2010?
I finally figured out who Lieberman reminds me of… think Return of the Jedi…
http://www.lethaldeath.com/Wic…..s/nein.jpg
This primary is not going to be desided by John Q because it is in Aug. and there are too busy to vote. The energized supporters are going to do it and that is Ned’s strength.
Phil 293
You know, you got a point there. So much will depend on Lamont’s August GOTV effort.
Why do you have plans for 2010?
Might be a good time to visit my old hometown and do some work for Not-Shrumer in the primary…
Bush just blew off Gore about Global Warming as ” just politics!” Despicable ….
body language weird on larry king…
w looks like he’s sitting just slightly ahead of lump and his body is turned slightly away from her. legs crossed & pointed away from her.
larry asks about gore’s statement that he has been bad for the environment. he ain’t seen gore’s film. “i guess politics never stop– sigh”
i have done a lot for the environment and he’s gonna get the tall one, too. oh, and they are gonna all win in November.
Lina, I wouldn’t worry about Edwards being on the Dem ticket on ‘08.
The earmark discussion was completely lame, and actually made Lamont sound like he had no idea how the Senate works. There are basically two kinds of funding, big formula chunks (EPA, DOD, etc) and earmarks. The ONLY way a Senator can push money toward his own district or toward a cause that he is interested in is by an earmark. Are they abused? Of course. Should they be outlawed? Give me a break! Those guys don’t run for office just to vote on “Sense of the Senate” resolutions. They also intend to “do things” for their states and districts, and that means earmarks. Would Ned prefer that political appointees determine all funding allocations? It probably resonated with some folks who have no idea how the system works, but I don’t approve of over-simplifying things that way.
Kirby 254
Are you the nurse who was on The View this morning?
If so, you were WONDERFUL!
Congratulations for not smacking that cutey pie who interrupted you every time you tried to make a point. You talked over her well!
BTW, before you came on I sat through 6 minutes straight of commercials. When did that start?
Hey Bush, you already have.
Wait til the KISS float goes town to town…it is great and reminds us all of Holy Joe’s being Bush’s favorite Demo in a state where Bush is at 22 % and going further down.
i have done a lot for the environment
Oh yeah, he’s really taken care of the environment. In a Tony Soprano kind of way…
big news, bush has an intel briefing every morning, except for Sundays.(OMG) so we’re safe.
umm, maybe that was a big national security secret you just leaked, chimpster.
Local NBC poll
Lamont 81%
Lieb 19%
Bush’s environment sleeps with the fishes
Ghostman — re: last night’s discussion and relevant to Lamont/Lieberman — a data point on the feelings of Jewish voters. From “www.talkingpointsmemo.com” in case you have not seen it…
——-
Good for the Jews? JTA: “It’s unclear how many Jewish Democrats share that view. Jewish fund-raisers canvassed by JTA said they favored Lieberman — even those who profoundly disagree with him on Iraq. But an internal Democratic poll of Connecticut Jews sees Lamont leading by 50 percent to 41 percent, JTA has learned. The sample was small, but the results were a dramatic departure from the 90-plus approval rating Lieberman scored among Jews after Al Gore named him as his running mate in 2000.”
———
and your little dog…my husband gave me mine for Christmas, and I am hooked, but good.
I’ve never like Larry King, and the other night when he was on Charlie Rose he was asked what he thought of W and the war in Iraq. King said he really liked him and would never comment on the war out of respect for the President. I almost fell off my chair.
If the DSCC had any question before tonight that JoHo means to cause all the trouble he can in November, surely they got their answer. He dissed the party repeatedly, blatantly, obnoxiously.
Biden, Boxer, Salazar, Pryor — any other CoHos who want to trot along with or after him — you are hereby on notice.
Local pulse –
Mom – thought he (Ned) did ok, but seemed inexperienced – she has been worried about splitting the ticket. Thought Joe was insufferable – went from on the fence to definately voting for Ned, including getting out there on primary day.
Step Dad – and this is surprising, because he HATES politics and politicians. He’s from Floida and is a middle of the road NASCAR fan.
He thought Ned said “what the Democrats should have been saying for years” – “Lieberman is slippery.” Will vote for Ned in Nov. (Im trying to get him to register for the primary, but he refuses to belong to any party)
Interesting. Look forward to seeing how the “hate politicians” crowd reacts.
*ilson46201 296
“Bush just blew off Gore about Global Warming as “just politics!”
I don’t think Bush meant to say that. He probably meant to say, “It’s just science.”
w finishes his work about 430 or 5 and then excercises and goes back to work.
riiiight.
i still cannot believe he just said that he doesn’t get an intel briefing on Sundays.
he’s gonna build a liberry.
btw, fresh thread above.
Digby
“I’m listening to the Lieberman-Lamont debate and if I were just tuning in with no knowledge of the players I would just assume that Lieberman was a conservative Republican, if not an actual member of the Bush administration. He’s behaving like an arrogant, bullying thug.
No wonder the Republicans love him so much — the only time he gets nasty is when he’s debating a Democrat. When he debated Dick Cheney he practically gave him a blow job on national TV. But then, that makes sense. He and Dick Cheney both agree that Ned Lamont “and his supporters” are a threat to the nation. “
jim preston,
“The earmark discussion was completely lame, and actually made Lamont sound like he had no idea how the Senate works.”
Liberman bragged about his “ear mark” success (his opinion) but knocked the “bridge to nowhere”, IIRC, also an ear mark. Can’t have it both ways, no? It’s a problem as it currently exists and needs to be fixed IMO.
I think Christy is right about the opening and closing statements being what was important, but I have a slightly different take on why. Here’s my question: How many undecided Connecticut Democratic voters actually watched the whole debate? I haven’t heard anybody tell us what the ratings were (probably because no one knows yet) but folks, if a voter wasn’t watching, or was watching sporadically because that’s an hour when a lot of other things are going on, then “who won” will depend on what they hear or read about the debate, and not the debate itself. And the news clips are going to be from those opening and closing statements, plus some punditry. (If we’re very lucky, the “Joe stormed out mad” anecdote will get very wide play too.) And here, I am very hopeful — precisely because the nattering nabobs on MSNBC focused instantly on two things: Joe sounded like an irritated Republican and Ned did very well for a novice. If you’re an undecided Connecticut Democrat and you hear that, who do you think won? Anyway, that’s my take.
Oh, and Rayne, I assume you are rushing to register a domain for whoisnedlamont.com, right? You go girl!
If Lamont wins the primary (prayerfully looking upwards AND for my checkbook) Lamont will have a 3-way debate. Two against one – he had better have his soundbites ready and get in the fighting spirit. He will need it.
Eli at 295
you’re gonna hate me, but I have to stick up for Schumer here. At the beginning of the Schrub admin. Schumer stood almost completely alone an blocked the worst of the Shrub court packing.
You cannot believe the pressure he was under from our own Vichy Dems.
But for Chuck, I truly believe that today Miguel Estrada would be sitting on, or “on deck” for, SCOTUS.
Chuck fought alone and shoed a spine long before folks like us were giving anyone any covering fire.
Chuck deserves credit for that
OT – You still here, John Casper?
Coulter Plagiarism Story Picks Up Steam.
That would be me. If only Joenertia was as vicious with Dick and not so busy trying to blow him, we’d be enjoying our 6th year of the Gore presidency.
Chuck deserves credit for that
Well, I’m grateful for that, but he’s been pretty tone-deaf and arrogant as DSCC chair, and we can’t afford that.
Angie 297
Bush’s body language is always crappy with respect to Laura.
Getting off the helicopter, even if he has his hand on her neck (grrrrr . . . .) he’s generally scowling.
Contrast that with the image of the honeymooning George and Condi as they debarked.
He spends wayyyy too much time talking to Rahm. Rahm is a big problem. He was a big problem when he worked for Bill Clinton.
Rahm is big honkin’ DINO
Thanks watertiger.
Thank you JWR. That is good news. I hope the WaPo and the NYT’s pick it up too.
Doverbitch’s comment @ 218 makes me wish that there were comment ratings on this site. I second the commenter who said “send thee to a papery” (er, or something like that). It needs to be embroidered in cross-stitch or something. (er… um, stitch n bitch?)
Touche to Anne @ 222: The only thing Ned Lamont lost tonight was his debating virginity, against a rude, arrogant and “I loves me some earmarks” Republican wanna-be.
He spends wayyyy too much time talking to Rahm. Rahm is a big problem. He was a big problem when he worked for Bill Clinton.
Rahm is big honkin’ DINO
So, he’s like… Rahma Wormtongue, then?
Anne 307
Do you suppose your husband could come to Austin, Texas and install mine? *g*
My guy is too busy putting together a new website for our business.
Pout.
BarbaraB — somebody beat me to it, and I don’t know if they’re somebody from “our team”.
Any Firepups got scoop on it, dish it out here.
In the mean time, I need to find somebody in CT who’s pro-Lamont who wants the Blogger site I set up, http://whoisnedlamont.blogspot.com.
Firepups, help me out here and find me somebody to give this to!!
off topic, I just went over and scrolled around on Late German Fascists for a bit.
I haven’t been there in a while.
Jesus H. Christ, it’s a shock to, figuratively speaking, see people squat down, take a shit, and then turn around and eat it.
It’s a mecca for people who are both psychotic and self-lobotomized.
They’re gibbering at each other like cornered rats.
Which is OK, I guess, since that’s what they are.
JWR @ 7:05 pm (#319) – The question I’m asking myself is, which is more pathetic:
* that Coulter stole much of what she wrote?
* the stuff she stole was so lame?
* that there will still be people who think of her as a genius?
Cujo359 – Wow, that’s a hard one. :p But even though it’d only amount to scraping the crud off of the bottom of the wing-nut barrel, I’d still settle for her being discredited among the marginally sane in the media who think she’s deserving of any air time at all.
Lieberman acts like he’s throwing it.
Rayne — Repeat that upstairs (new thread) and I’m sure you’ll have takers. I hope someone on Lamont’s team was as quick off the dime as you were, but I suppose it could be Lieberman. After all, he knew he was going to use it as a tag line and Lamont’s people didn’t.
punaise at 152 I’m not prepared to talk about mine just yet.
Were you in Nam?
rootz, rape gurney, ragge!
this a red meat music…
I’ve been looking at Liberman’s voting record. While his enthusiastic support of the war makes him a prime target and I think he deserves to loose his job just on that basis, overall his voting record is pretty good. Looking closer, it gets a little hard to make out. While he voted against Brown and Owen, for example, he was instrumental in getting them up for a full vote that was sure to carry in their favor. His history of “reaching out” to Repblicans has only resulted in more wins for Republicans. The results would no doubt be the same if he was a fighter. Though it’s just this sort of surrender that a lot of grass roots progressives get so frustrated about. How can you respect the guy when he won’t stand up to the Right and acts like “developing a dialog” makes one bit of difference. The Right in this country is not interested in dialog or democracy. They are just interested in total domination. Liberman, Clinton, Biden, the DCL, etc. have neutered the oposition to the radical reactionary forces that have taken over this country. Lamont is probably not a great candidate, and when it’s all over Liberman will probably retain his seat, but this fight is still good for the Democratic party.
I hate to say it. But since Lieberman’s attacks were pretty easy to predict, I wish Lamont was better coached.
Most important: TV viewers would have no idea how scared Joe is. And Ned should have drilled Joe on how Joe’s fear makes Joe drive in both lanes. That is more important to voters than not whether or not he is a Party hack.