
The Lieberman/Lamont debate will be broadcast on CSPAN at 7pm EDT/4pm PDT (and also, according to Kos, MSNBC). If the universe conspires to cooperate with my plans, I’ll be picking Matt Stoller up at the Hartford train station at 6pm and we’ll be covering the event live from the Lamont War Room.
I’ve been around Ned quite a bit now and have tremendous faith in his sincerity and the straightforward way he comes across. Nonetheless, Lieberman is the much more experienced debater and he needs to go for a knockout punch tonight. Most people acknowledge that despite the Emergency Plan B that Joe is clinging to, if Lieberman loses on August 8 all the momentum is going to be with Ned. I would have to say the advantage is probably with Lieberman tonight. But I know Ned will be inspirational nonetheless — if you haven’t seen him speak before make sure to tune in.
If Ned in fact does the unimaginable and scores a "W" on the 8th against an 18 year incumbent, it’s going to be in large part due to the amazing staff he’s assembled around himself (sign of a good manager). I’ve sung the praises of his campaign manager Tom Swan and the superb interface between the campaign and local bloggers managed by Tim Tagaris. Now the Christian Science Monitor has a great article up on Bill Hillsman (who I also met at that 4th of July barbecue), who is doing Ned’s ads:
His humorous riffs on Jesse Ventura’s image in 1998 helped stage one of the most stunning upsets in American politics. The former prowrestler and radio talk-show host managed to defeat two of the gopher state’s most established politicians and win the governorship as an independent. And in the 2000 presidential race, Hillsman helped portray Ralph Nader as the candidate of the people – versus the monied special-interest class – in a parody of the MasterCard "Priceless" ads. (Promises to special interest groups? $10 billion. Finding out the truth? Priceless." The "priceless" image showed Nader working over a pile of documents.)
This campaign season, in addition to Lamont and Mr. Friedman, the former "Texas Jewboys" lead singer, he’s working for Christy Mihos, a wealthy businessman who bolted the Massachusetts GOP this year to run for governor as an independent.
Underdogs are his speciality. Candidates with little name recognition or money often have to take risks to get elected, and that makes them a natural fit for Hillsman’s whimsy. A sign in his airy, spacious offices here says "the only safe thing to take is a chance." It’s a directive he takes seriously. "When you work with [the kind of] candidates I generally do, who oftentimes don’t have a lot of resources, you have to do something distinctive," he explains. "If you’re doing the same thing as everyone else, it’s just not going to be effective."
While mainstream political consultants bristle at what they consider Hillsman’s arrogant swipes, no one denies his effectiveness.
"He can work really well with unorthodox candidates," says Steven Schier, a Carleton College political scientist. "The Wellstone and Ventura races were very close, and Hillsman’s advertisements cut through the media clutter and garnered attention."
As Kos notes, Hillsman’s success record may have put him on the outs with the DSCC and DC insiders:
Hillsman has been shut out of the DC consultant world for years. This year he told me he was moving up in the world because the DSCC had called him to say they wouldn’t use his firm this year. "In the past, they didn’t even bother with a phone call", he laughed.
The beltway mafia doesn’t like Hillsman at all.
It’s great that the Democrat Incumbency Organizations force people like Bob Doyle onto campaigns contingent with their support (Doyle’s candidate was deemed ineligible to appear on a May 2 ballot because Doyle failed to collect 50 signatures he needed to qualify. Sweet.). Meanwhile guys like Hillsman and Steve Eichenbaum, the media consultant for Feingold’s brilliant 1992 "miracle campaign," continue to be blackballed.
Good on Ned for recognizing talent and being willing to buck the wisdom of insiders who seem to do a crackerjack job of losing.
See you at 7:00.




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Lamont!
Jane!
Kobe!
Fitz!
wow, first time…
Lieberman is the much more skilled debater
Sure, he’s a masterdebater.
ROOTS!!!
Perhaps that could have read ‘experienced debater’ ?
I don’t know about skill, I haven’t seen Lamont in a debate yet, I was underwhelmed by previous campaign bluster coming from Lieberman, he is too politically moribund for my tastes as a speakier.
NEDify that nullity!
Joe Lieberman will scold Ned Lamont for bringing venom and anger into the political discourse by being associated with the netroots and blogs.
Then Odious Joe will go on and talk with Sean Hannity about how Democrats are the “party of death” and “cut and run” cowards and how liberalism is akin to terrorism.
Go Smelly Joe, go.
-GSD
I’ll watch if I can, and be back here to get the poop after the kids go down. No prisoners, Ned.
I dug up this older article on Hillsman from Minnesota Law & Politics that goes into more depth on the Minnesota work he did.
Hillsman helped Wellstone knock out the powerful incumbent senator Rudy Boschwitz, in a situation very similar to Lamont and Lieberman (the difference being the general versus primary). Hillsman was able to really capitalize on Wellstone’s populism and Boschwitz’s disconnect with Minnesotans.
That race echoes the long shot of Lamont against Lieberman. I think the 1990 Wellstone campaign proved it can be done, and Hillsman is probably the most experienced advertising guru in the country for this kind of thing.
Lamont!
Kinky!!
c’mon, how many times can you honestly holler Kinky! and at least sort of be on topic?
Good point, jayt.
KINKY!
any word on who the moderator(s) are? And what to expect from him/her/them?
Oh yeah, about that “sea of tranquility” that was ushered in to the Muddled East by the brilliant Neo-con strategy.
Hamas calls Palestinians to arms after latest Israeli push.
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..F896AD.htm
Heckuva job G-Dud, Deadeye Dick, Perle, Condi, Rummy and the rest of the eggheaded dinkweeds that wanted to play chess with humans and nations.
-GSD
GO NED! It’s too much to hope for, but I’d love to see a knockout punch landed against that annoying prick. It’s worth pointing out that Joe has nothing but contempt for entrepreneurs. The bankruptcy bill and his refusal to support universal health insurance prove that he has no respect for risk takers.
Take him down Ned!
Jane,
It’s way cool to be at the epicenter, yes?
Doing God’s work, girl!
I’d like to see my man Lamont ask Joe Lieberman what he thinks of the P.M. of Iraq “telling” the Bush administration today to “keep” reckless troops from serving in Iraq. The Iraqi PM was referring to the sexual assult of a 14 year old girl, and the murder of her and her family, last March by a group of G.I’s. And the Iraq prime minister is laboring under some serious reality dislocation if he thinks that Bush gives a twit about some fourteen Iraqi girl and her family of Iraqi ’savages’. It’d be really nice to see smooth talkin’ Bush war supporting egg-sucker Joe stumble over a question like this.
ditto, GSD– the worst failed administration ever– rotten, evil, stoopid, lazy, thieving, lying, unpatriotic, hubris laden ignoramuses.
Jane, if MSNBC carries this, Ned has already won the debate imo.
If HoJo wants to make this about Iraq, terrific. I want to hear HoJo explain why it contradicts every principle of the Powell Doctrine? I want to hear HoJo “educate” us about what the military objectives are for U.S. forces? Since our OCCUPATION of Iraq and Afghanistan only makes Russia and Iran more dominant in the region, why is it in the U.S. national interest? I want to hear HoJo explain to us why we should pay for the OCCUPATION of two Middle Eastern countries? BTW, it looks to me as though Israel’s security situation has grown more precarious since we started the OCCUPATION. I want to hear HoJo explain why we’re spending all this money, lives, and limbs in Iraq when Osama has still not been brought to justice.
I hope you are part of the team that helps Ned prep. Ned doesn’t have to be perfect, not by a long shot, just breathe, relax and let HoJo self-destruct.
Ho Jo discussion coming up on noron now and they will cover it live and have been pimping it all day.
Anon–
Encourage you to take on a nom de plume to distinguish yourself from a world of other “anon” writers. jmo
Nice catch angie, that is huge!
HoJo has to be so pissed that MSNBC is carrying this. He knows it is ONLY, because of his “PLAN B.”
Hey, we have justifiably given MSNBC a lot of flack, maybe after the debate, it would be time to consider thanking them for carrying the debate, just an idea.
Gerry Brooks is talking now and will be a panelist at the debate.
noron keeps pushing the Lamont anti war theme. she brings up the kiss that Lamont is talking about. Gerry brings up the KISS float. He admits he has subjected himself to the blogs more to prep for the debate… amazed by the blogs depthof knowledge and passion but wonders if they ever get out of the house.
now there talking about dem endorsements and that Kerry and Gore will only support the winner of the primary. Brooks says the blogs could win the primary for Ned, but doesn’t know about the election.
He does not know us well enough, yet. ;)
More discussion after the break.
Anon,
#1, we want you at FDL, however,
#2, ditto what egregious wrote at 2:26
Please, the Ministry of Propaganda has determined that the alleged Iraqi rape victim, even though she was 14 is to be referred to as a “woman”.
Please do not deviate from this directive.
Tony Snow
John Casper–
I just emailed your comment over to ctblogger who is subbing for ctbob, with a note that perhaps they could use these in the debate.
According to C-SPAN’s schedule, the debate will be carried live at 7PM EDT, 4PM PDT on C-SPAN (AKA “C-SPAN1″).
I am so silly! All this time I had it in my head the debate was at 7 p.m. my time (CA)! I was afraid of missing it at Drinking Liberally later. :embarrassed:
Everytime, noron and the rest of the TM say “WAR” we lose a little. It’s an “OCCUPATION.”
for a local primary Senatorial debate to be carried on a national cable news channel is definitely a bad sign for an 18-year incumbent. It should have been a non-news event. CSpan has been pretty good about debates but M$NBC? Very bad sign for Cut’n Run Joe !
Extremely flattered egregious at 2:33, thank you.
You are obviously much more on top of the detail than I was.
Slightly OT – forgive me – a cc of my reply to Sen. Boxer’s letter soliciting funds for her PAC follows:
My vote is for Ned Lamont, the REAL Democrat running for the Senate seat representing my brothers & sisters in Connecticut. I notice with dismay that his name is not an option on your PAC page.
I alse read, with alarm, that you will be appearing on behalf of the Democrat-in-name-only candidate, Joe Lieberman, in Connecticut. For shame, Barabara. Lieberman is no supporter of women’s rights, gay rights or peace activists.
Please re-think your support for Lieberman. The Senate, as you well know, is not an entitlement. Representation must be earned. Principles must mean something. You, more than most, have shown a willingness to stand for priciple. Please don’t let us down on this crucial issue.
Peace,
Nick Polak
Fort Lauderdale, FL
— Barbara Boxer wrote:
> Dear Nick,
>
> As you know, the single most important goal for Democrats right
> now is to take back Congress from the Republicans. As long as
> the House and Senate are under GOP control, we have limited
> means to stop George Bush from packing the federal courts with
> radical judges and pushing through his extreme right-wing
> agenda. Plus, with one-party rule there is no accountability on
> desperately important issues like the war in Iraq or the attack
> on Social Security and Medicare.
>
> That’s why I am so proud of what we have been able to accomplish
> over just the past few weeks. Thanks to your generosity, our PAC
> for a Change community has raised nearly $200,000 for
> Democratic candidates in key races across the country!
>
> In May, you voted on which Democratic House member and promising
> House challenger you wanted to support. Based on your choices,
> we raised more than $15,000 dollars for Rep. Leonard Boswell in
> Iowa and helped Francine Busby nearly win one of the most
> Republican districts in the country.
>
> Now it’s time for the next step. I want to invite you to choose
> which promising Democratic challenger for the Senate that we’re
> going to support next.
>
> Vote for the Senate challenger you want our PAC for Change
> community to support today!
>
> http://ga4.org/ct/Hp1pm611iROK/vote
>
> Like before, the winner of our online vote will be featured in a
> fundraising email to our PAC for a Change community, which could
> be worth tens of thousands of dollars to that campaign. So your
> vote, and the votes of your friends and family, are critically
> important.
>
> Right now, we’re just six seats away from a Democratic majority
> in the Senate. Only six.
>
> Winning those seats won’t be easy. But, political analysts say
> that a Democratic Senate is now within reach.
>
> Vote for the Senate race our PAC for a Change should focus on
> next — and help us move one step closer to winning back
> Congress this November!
>
> http://ga4.org/ct/Hp1pm611iROK/vote
>
> What would taking back the Senate mean? A Democratic Senate
> would mean protecting Social Security from privatization,
> reversing the increased costs of student loans, and raising the
> minimum wage for the first time in 9 years. A Democratic Senate
> would mean real oversight over an administration that spies on
> its own citizens and sanctions torture. Above all, taking back
> the Senate would be a chance for this great nation to live by
> its ideals once again.
>
> When Democrats control the Senate, it will bring positive change
> to our Country. Just imagine the great things we will do when
> Pat Leahy chairs the Judiciary Committee, when Ted Kennedy heads
> the Health, Education, Labor, and Pension Committee, and when
> yours truly chairs the Environment Committee.
>
> We have the chance to pick up Senate seats in every part of the
> country this November — places from Pennsylvania and Rhode
> Island to Ohio, Missouri, Montana, and many states in between.
> These Democratic candidates are some of the most capable and
> experienced new leaders that I have ever seen.
>
> So who will PAC for a Change support next? It’s up to you. Vote
> for your favorite Senate challenger by July 21st!
>
> http://ga4.org/ct/Hp1pm611iROK/vote
>
> Then forward this email to your friends and ask them to vote
> too.
>
> It’s time for a new direction for America. Working together, we
> can win these races and take back the Senate this November.
>
> Thanks so much for your help.
>
> In Friendship,
>
> Barbara Boxer
>
> P.S. Please take just a minute to vote for the Senate challenger
> you think PAC for a Change should support next. Remember, this
> could literally be worth tens of thousands of dollars for their
> campaigns — which may well be the difference between winning
> and losing any of these tough, competitive races. So choose
> carefully!
amazed by the blogs depth of knowledge and passion but wonders if they ever get out of the house.
Just needed that little nudge to go on today’s walk. Have heeded the cardiologist’s choice, exercise or die, and have decided to go for a really long walk every day. Two weeks so far.
Will be back for the debate!
Thanks GSD, at 2:33 pm, that’s another huge catch. We have to come back to it after the debate to remind the TM.
Here’s Howard Fineman making the war the single issue.
fineman and cillizza now on with “losing his joe-mo?” as a banner.
LOLOLOLOLOL!
John Casper says
July 6th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
maybe after the debate, it would be time to consider thanking them for carrying the debate,
JC: I know you’re right, just trying to decide how to frame it.
Dear MSNBC: Thank you for all of your programming, especially your evening programs, with the exception of Chris Matthews and Norah O’Donnell, Joe Scarborough, Rita Cosby and Tucker Carlson.
Love you stuff!!
or:
Dear MSNBC: Thanks you for pre-empting Chris Matthews’ Hardball tonight!!
I’m torn.
Jane,
Regarding your praise of Lamont: Are you thinking he’s going to be a really *good* senator, e.g. a Russ Feingold or a Paul Wellstone – or are you thinking he’s going to be a Hillary Clinton or a Joe Biden, or perhaps a Barack Obama, who sounds good and then votes for the bankruptcy bill and propagates Republican stereotypes about Democrats and religion? In other word, do you think that Lamont is just better than Lieberman or do you think that he is going to be one of the few really good Democratic senators? And if the latter, why (specifically) do you think so?
Thanks.
JC–
You’re welcome. I was reading your comment and kept thinking, wow these are really good ideas. Too bad the Lamont people don’t have them. DING!
First I posted them as a comment at ctbob but then saw he was on vacation, so emailed them to the sub, ctblogger. Found both of them by using google.
(((((((((((Hopespringsaturtle))))))))))))))
-hug-
I hope Lamont gets a bit sensational and dramatic tonight. I hope his language is colorful and fiery and inspires great passion, even anger, in this debate. Shake up the viewers, bring something new to the table. We need FIRE!
Honestly, I’d like to hear him speak about this 14 year old girl as systemic of the whole criminal enterprise which folks like Lieberman call a “war” and bring home in graphic terms the realities of the Iraq clusterfuck.
There may be a backlash if he employs histrionics but I think the benefits are worth it if it shakes up some people and makes them think.
GSD 27
Is that because in modern-day neocon “morality” it’s ok to rape a “woman” but not a “girl”?
jayt–snerk
leftof–yes, it is worse to rape a child, not too much disagreement there.
The walk. oKAY, I’m going.
Linda R – 30 -
Hah, same here. I’ve been moaning here at my CA beach house that I’d miss the debate and just realized it’s at 4:00 our time. I’m quite relieved!
I very much get irritated with Noron’s laugh, but I much more dislike her condescension wrt to Cindy last nite and the blogs tonite- well, “now Kos is keeping a scorecard…”
Thank you Angie, my tv satellite is on the fritz until mananas repairman calls. Thank You.
Will Joe breakdown and cry?
He would if he thought it would help.
John Casper @ 2:34 pm (#31) – To me, it’s both. We are occupying Iraq, and some of its people are engaging in a guerilla war against us. It might not be an exaggeration to say this is also a civil war, which was brought on by our invading Iraq and toppling the government.
What the war in Iraq is not is a war against terrorism, or at least it’s not helping in that effort. That’s the central fallacy that needs to be countered. We’re not killing them so we don’t have to kill them here. They were created over there because we left a power vacuum after toppling Saddam.
“Dear MSNBC: Thanks you for pre-empting Chris Matthews’ Hardball tonight!!”
LOL The question is though, will it be commercial free?
CSPAN is a fer sure on that ; )
The power of the KISS float was again spoken about on HardBall (The Republican Show).
Great job dad…
Boy, that Noron O’Dontknow sure cracks herself up. She laughs at her own jokes like no one I have ever seen.
Kinda creepy, and a little hot.
-GSD
Lefty, I think it is just the grand minimizing efforts of the powers that be. We have been hard wired to really react horribly to crimes against “children” domestically…when we hear about an act like this we are supposed to think that is what the “terrists” do. “They have no regard for life.”
Good thing for Lieberman that this race isn’t a beauty contest. Check out the side by side pictures up at MSNBC right now:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13725231/
for those of you who are cableTV-challenged — CSpan videostreams (and/or audio) live through the tubes of the Internets for free – even via a dialup connection …
Kinda creepy, and a little hot.
Like, really! Imagine if she were drunk….
leftofliberal Is that because in modern-day neocon “morality” it’s ok to rape a “woman” but not a “girl”?
Have to disagree with your premise. I know a lot of people in the red states, no one thinks is it -OK- to rape anyone. Let’s not demonize them more than necessary. Neocon morality about starting wars and killing people in order to further U.S. power, there you might have an argument about morality.
Factor to keep in mind–in Iraq for a 14 year old to be raped probably precludes her from ever getting a husband. No one will have her.
Kindly excuse me if I get hotheaded about the rape of a 14 year old. I have my reasons. Not me personally.
Thanks, but I’m going to remain anon. I’m a regular FDL luker, but only rarely post.
Plus, the last time I chose a posting name (@kos), I got burned at work. It was not fun.
Is Ned Lamont going to debate Emperor Palpatine?
-GSD
Not sure if this is new. Boxer confirms her intention to appear with Lieberman:
“Boxer told the Chronicle today she plans to appear on Lieberman’s behalf at an environmental event in Connecticut on air pollution and children’s asthma.” – SFGate.
How about anon5 or something, just so we know it’s you?
OT PPP
Again not directly about Don Joe or LaMount Rushmore, still related (at least in my world).
The Gore 2000 pattern holds true so far except AML Obrador or AMLO will not concede defeat. The US. And Mexican Gov. and their mass media continue to demean AMLO, the progressive movement and our future. The Mexican special tribunal may hand the presidency to Calderon and we will face this again and again. When do we stand up and stop playing by their (Rep-fascistocorporate) rules. Lamont’s fight is one way, and AMLO’s another but our elected Dems. often seem to be acquiescently (or worse) playing by (Rep-fascistocorporate) rules, i.e. Schumer, Lieberman. It’s daunting the forces progressive U.S. citizens are up against from pure evil to indolence. Oh yes the old discouragement mantra but things that continue to get worse will also become more difficult to repair.
Boxer loyal to Senate colleague
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..ry_id=6811
JWR – I hadn’t heard that about Boxer.
If she really is going to CT to campaign for Lieberman, she has lost a tremendous amount of respect from me.
I will have a hard time trusting Boxer to act in the Democratic party’s best interests going forward.
Hi Lake dwellers. Don’t applaud MSNBC YET! Let’s see who thay have on after the debate to do the Lieberman spin…..You know Noron et al like to set people up….this may be a set up to spin Lieberman as the winner….I hope I am wrong, but let’s see…..!
wxyz – She won’t even commit to supporting the winner of the primary. Very disappointing.
Is that our Jane behind ned in the white jacket?
-Monk
I am really OVER Boxer right now…..She said in the article again, that Lieberman has been with her on choice…HMmmmmmmmmmm. She needs to get with the program.
How dare Hillsman employ tactics that actually win elections for Democrats? Not only that, but he worked for Wellstone. No wonder DSCC-types don’t like him much.
Really looking forward to this debate. Lamont has a lot to gain, and Lieberman has a lot to lose. Some politicians seem to thrive on that atmosphere, but from what I’ve seen of Lieberman’s performances in the psat week, he’s not one of them.
Larry King is interviewing Bush tonight (after the Lamont/Lieberman debate). King says he’s going to ask Bush if he will support Lieberman if he runs as an Independent in November.
Bush won’t go that far but you can bet that he will have lots of really nice things to say about Lieberman. Maybe he’ll blow him a kiss.
Jane said,
“If Ned in fact does the unimaginable…”
Huh? I don’t think a “W” for Ned is such a longshot.
mebbe Boxer ought to take a 48 hr period and stay home and read the blogs. then maybe she would have some depth of knowledge…
A friend in Duluth Minn saw this bumper sticker today:
ANNOY A LIBERAL – WORK HARD – BE HAPPY
What????
I’ve had so many head shaking moments in the last 6 years, I should be a bobble head by now.
Cujo359 at 2:45 pm
I couldn’t agree more.
The most important point you make is that it helps us not at all against Osama and his followers.
I am always looking for “soundbytes” that put the neocons on the defensive. I didn’t intend that those questions did justice to the serious complexity that is the ME.
Labeling someone “anti-war” always reminds me of calling them a “commie-pinko-fag,” which is what Vietnam protesters will recall.
My goal is for Dems to attack Iraq specifically as a General would. Pickett’s Charge, (Confederate) Fredericksburg, (Union) and Petersburg (Union) were simply the result of horrible decisions made by “Generals.”
I think the Dems have more traction, if when they “attack,” they don’t sound like pacifists.
The other issue is of course, it’s expensive. HoJo has no clue as to how we will pay for Iraq/Afghanistan.
CNN has been running excerpts of the Larry King interview of The Dear Leader already. It’s been taped and will be played at 9pm ET…
I am not in a forgiving spirit these days relative to republicans and the dems who refuse to fight.
I am thinking of all those roses we gave to Boxer and I guess I should not be an turd and want my money back, but Boxer should be made to remember this backstab at the grassroots.
I will not forget this Senator Boxer.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..php#008951
wxyz @ 3:02 pm (#63) – I will have a hard time trusting Boxer to act in the Democratic party’s best interests going forward.
I won’t. Whatever Boxer’s attitude is concerning Lieberman, she’s been a consistent and outspoken critic of what’s wrong with the Bush Administration. Let’s not forget she was one of the few people who signed on with Sen. Feingold on the censure resolution. She’s earned the right to disagree with us on this. We just have to do this without her.
From the “Freedom smells like napalm” files:
“Also on Thursday, al-Maliki announced that the government has banned all political activity in Iraq’s universities to try to defuse tensions between Shia and Sunni students and lecturers.
“We decided unanimously in cabinet to ban all political activities inside universities,” al-Maliki told a news conference.
He said students must focus on education and leave politics to the politicians.”
-GSD
I guess Jane will be hanging out at the Nedquarters tonite….
RE Puppethead @ 10
In addition to Hillsman, Wellstone had a lot of help that year from Boschwitz himself as well as the first GOP gubernatorial candidate. Both Paul and Rudy were/are Jews, and a week or so before the election Rudy denounced the secular Wellstone as insufficiently religious, with emphasis on the fact that he had married a gentile. Whatever Boschwitz might have gained among the orthodox Jews in the state he lost many times over not only among non-orthodox Jews but also among Christians of all stripes.
This all came up not long after candidate for governor John Grunseth got kicked off of the ballot. A 13 or so year old friend of his daughter accused him of trying to pull down her bikini top while she was a guest at their swimming pool. He denied it, but then his mistress came forward and substantiated the allegation. He resigned his candidacy and was replaced by Arne Carlson, the well-regarded GOP state auditor, who went on to win the election. Wellstone, as we know, narrowly beat the incumbent Boschwitz.
Hey everyone, Christy in particular
Kristin Hays (AP writer who reported a lot on the Ken Lay trial in Houston) is now reporting that because Ken Lay has died his attorneys can now simply request that his conviction be overturned and it would be done.
Please tell me this is not true. There are a bunch of yahoos who told Ms. Hays that this would be an easy thing and that Judge Lake would more than likely agree to vacate the convition.
It can’t be that easy can it?????? I don’t practice in the field of criminal law (state or federal) but it would seem to me that Lay should not be able to do this so cleanly!!!!
I am sorry, but her putting her ‘friendship’ for fellow D.C.insiders against CT voters is not being friendly to the grassroots. In this decision, she has showed her true colors.
All of her bloviatin…. er… words to the grassroots — can they be trusted? That is my question. And yes, I am angry and distrustful.
Well, because HoJo’s subs having been pushing way too hard on the “Ned’s a Johnny-One-Note” idea, it’s very important for Lamont to establish that he has a whole lot of notes to play.
He needs to hammer HoJo on his opposition to Plan B for rape victims;
He needs to hammer HoJo on his opposition to universal health care;
He needs to hammer HoJo on his votes in favor of that hideous bankruptcy bill;
and then he needs to soft-pedal the war in Iraq. Not to avoid it, but just to acknowledge that their views differ substantially and move on something else. Like universal health care, Medicare Part D, etc.
BC
karelroc– I have read that same thing from several sources. here’s something from the wapoo this a.m.:
>>>>>>>>>>
Fort Lauderdale: Hello: Am appalled by reports elsewhere that because Lay died before sentencing, his conviction might well be vacated.
Wouldn’t this be a huge flaw in the justice system? … The possibility that if convicted (with chances slim on appeal), that a convicted felon can preserve assets and prevent being sentenced via an early alternative checkout — while out on bond vacationing somehere cushy?
Ideally, Lay would be sentenced in absentia, and the feds can move ahead on seizing his estate’s ill-gotten gains.
What’s ahead realistically? Thanks in advance for your insight.
Carrie Johnson: Thanks Fort Lauderdale.
The law is pretty clear on this point. Because our system wants to err on the side of caution, convictions are thrown out if a defendant dies before he has exhausted his appeals. As a general rule, the legal system also frowns upon punishing dead people or their estates.
If you want to read more about this, check out a 2004 case by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, U.S. vs. Andrew C. Parsons.
IANAL, but …
If that’s the case (convictions are vacated if the convicted dies before exhausting appeals), that creates a tremendous pressure to suicide in the case of financial crimes like this one.
The logical thought would be, “I’m not going to have it in any event, any sentence given me will amount to a life term. If I kill myself, at least my wife and kids get to keep the money I stole…”
BC
CK if you are around.
I just read your post 2 threads back about the Florida voter purge.
Thank you. I copied and pasted the link.
Anybody who wants to send similar stuff
try emailing LHPFDL at aim dot com
but try to give me heads up you sent it, I don’t check that address regularly
Storm approaching … I’m packing up and hoping that it doesn’t mess up my satellite reception.
BC
Kenny boy fucking people from beyond the grave. What an eloquent epitath.
I agree with Cujo359 at 3:12.
IMO, Boxer is being lumped in with Kerry and Kennedy as the most liberal Democrats. That attracts a lot of neocon money from national groups to trash them. This in turn can really handicap them when trying to get things done in their respective States and that will get you unelected.
People like DiFi, HoJo and Schumur were exploiting this. They were telling all that national neocon money to attack the “liberal” Democrats and leave them alone.
I don’t mean to dilute in any way the serious damage that Boxer is doing. It’s very bad for Ned, for the CT Dem party and for the entire Democratic party. In fairness to Boxer, however, I think it’s just symptomatic of a broader abandonement that other Democrats started.
Also, if Ned does just OK tonite, or if HoJo bombs, Boxer may “revisit” her position and ask HoJo to commit to support the winner of the Dem primary.
OT but how’s about some good old fashioned rethug corruption?
http://www.vanityfair.com/feat…..0705fege01
Look at the Duketers face. No interest at all in women
“I’m Ned Lamont, and I approve this message.”
“I’m Joe Lieberman, and I’ll ignore your message.”
karelroc — I heard the same thing in yesterday’s news reports, along with the note that apparently the court in that district is especially inclined to vacate convictions when the accused dies.
However, this only applies to criminal convictions; civil suits can proceed against the estate.
Good site for poll data on Lieberman
http://www.removerepublicans.c….._lieberman
Hey Cujo at 77….
I think you are absolutely wrong. Your attitude on Boxer’s apparent endorsement of Lieberman is exactly what is wrong with Boxer’s endorsement of Joe.
The day we start giving Boxer (or any other politician) a free pass simply because they have done good in the past is the day we lose our integrity.
Every issue, every decision made by a politician needs to be viewed and scrutinized individually.
Thus, it is not wrong for us to get in Boxer’s face for supporting Lieberman (and I already have – I called up her Sacramento office and talked to one of her staffers about her decision and passed along my disgust)
In this case, Boxer is absolutely wrong. Lieberman is not only bad for Connecticut but bad for the country (look at Alito and Iraq, and his stance on emergency treatment at hospitals).
Boxer doesn’t just get to disagree because she is friends with Lieberman and because she has satisfied us in the past. If she is going to back him she will have to face the political consequences.
I hope she changes her mind. I still remember her giving a speech outside my office in Fresno and I was so proud to see a California Senator bucking the Bush administration and speaking out against him since then.
Let’s hope she can make us proud again.
Clyde: My thoughts exactly!
Here’s a quote that lept out at me about “ninefingers”:
In 1989, Bassett was reprimanded for inappropriately carrying a gun to a meeting. That same year he sent a prank letter to a C.I.A. agent stationed in Vienna whom he’d heard the K.G.B. was trying to blackmail. “So Bassett wrote the poor guy in Vienna a letter as if he were his lover, describing their supposedly delightful sex acts,” reports a source. What Bassett didn’t expect was that Cuban intelligence would get hold of his bawdy letter, at which point they tried to blackmail him.
Hmmmm, a joke. Yeah. Someone should do a steamy soap opera about Duke and the closet cases, called “Rough Trade: the secret life of Duke Cunningham.”
Ned may still need to bust through the conventional wisdom about Lieberman–independent minded, moral, principalled. Where do I get that idea?
My brother was in for a visit this past weekend. After I had mentioned to my father on Monday about Lieberman’s announcement, we asked my brother (who now lives in northern NJ) if he had an opinion on Lamont vs. Lieberman, assuming it is well covered by the NYC media. He was vaguely aware of the contest and used the above words to describe his impression of Lieberman. He also thought Lamont was in the thrall of wild leftists. My brother gave the caveat that he was as much against Bush as myself or my parents, but then opined that one could be too far left and gave Bill Clinton as a perfect example of a good political philosophy. Now my brother doesn’t pay much attention to blogs (whereas, my father and myself have indeed been radicalized by them, though my mother doesn’t read blogs at all–she doesn’t even know how to send an internet–but has somehow has been radicalized by her watching of Hardball and reading The New Yorker). But where did my brother get his ideas about Liberman and the venomous lambs supporting Lamont? I guess through a MSM-osmosis of some sort.
I assume the likely voters of Connecticut are paying a little more attention than my New Jerseyite brother and see Lieberman for what he is, but there are still many out there who go to the polls only having vague ideas (perhaps formed long ago) about the candidates.
Anyway, when did this Ho Jo moniker start? Love it.
Home early! Got my popcorn and a foam brick to throw at the tee vee when Joe’s blabbing!!
I AM SOOO READY FOR NED!
I still have the vivid memory of watching Lieberman debate Cheney in 2000. If Lieberman is a skilled debater (or masterdebater), the only way he showed it against Cheney was by rolling over and playing dead with all four feet in the air.
But as Atrios put it, Lieberman only rolls over when he debates against Republicans. He will probably put on a much more fierce performance against a fellow Democrat.
Hmmm, I’m disappointed that Boxer’s going ahead with this, but I won’t be appalled as long as she supports the primary results. (Yeah, I’d prefer she said so up front, but I can live with that.)
Since the topic of the fundraiser is environmental issues, if she sticks to that topic and doesn’t try to talk about Joe’s support on choice, I’d take it as a sign she’s gotten at least some of the message.
thanks Angie (love this blog)
PS: did you intentionally mean to write “wapoo”? If so, funny. If not, a funny freudian slip anyway. he
the Ned/Joe debate will be carried live on C-Span1 at 7pm ET —
—this of course is available thru the tubes of the Internets …
Bargain CounterTenor
We also need to promote the idea that Leaverman is a one-issue candidate–his issue is blind support for Dear Leader.
Can Conn. Republicans vote for Lieberman?
Cujo359 at 3:12 pm – I tend to agree that in Boxer, we in CA have a Senator to be thankful for. And I realize that politics requires a good deal of give and take. But her refusal to support whoever wins the primary? Seems to me she should be willing to support the best Democratic candidate.
Then again, maybe the DSCC figures, with Lieberman in office, it’s got a mole in the WH, instead of the other way around.
I want Lamont to smack Ol’ smarmy Joe right in the chops.
karelroc
Fresno? How’s the heat? Grew up in the valley… now live in much nicer weather in socal.
Sorry if this was already determined, but
Can I watch the debate live online? I don’t have cable TV…
1,202 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOES ON AND ON AND…
Citizens (and illegal aliens):
Let’s not react too fast to the “Boxer endorses Lieberman” thing if it’s based on her appearance at a rally to support his environmental and asthma efforts…I think this appearance may have been set up some time ago and, remember, Barbara ain’t the quickest on the draw, she’s great on the issues but she’s not got the most penetratin’ mind in the senate. As her handlers and folks figure out how she’s bein’ used here, especially by the anti-choice nutso’s, I expect a “clarification” that Barabara supports Joe’s stands on asthma and the environment, that she will support the winner of the primary and that “it’s great for the party to have 2 fine candidates”.
This is it for Von Lieberman, all the stops are comin out, the corporate media will spin itself inta pancake batter for ol’ Joe and taday we see all the misrepresentations of support…’cuz tamorow it won’t matter. All Ned hasta do is beat this Likud honky’s ass on national TV and Joe is history.
And don’t worry about the fallout from a Lieberfascist independent effort…if Ned beats Joe, all Joe ken do is split the Republican vote and be a lightnin’ rod ta bring independents and old line Democrats out in force. All the beltway insiders know this…if Ned beats Lieberliar, the progressive transformation of the Democratic Party in inevitable.
KEEP THE FAITH, THEY CAN’T SEW A NEW PAIR OF PANTS FER THE EMPEROR NEARLY IN TIME!!!
Lieberman wasn’t such a good debater when he was sitting across from Dick Cheney six years ago.
People seem to see him as friendly and likeable, but he’s so bland.
Ned’s challenge is going to be able to stay on-message and to be blunt without going too far. He needs to call attention to Joe’s record on the war in particular, but also on a variety of other issues like censorship and cozying up to big business. (Lieberman purportedly told his fellow Dems not to play the Enron card in ‘02 because he didn’t want the party to appear anti-business.) He also needs to assail Lieberman’s perceived liberal record on gay rights and the environment — Joe earns a high score by voting to the left only when he knows the vote isn’t close and his vote won’t alter the outcome.
He also needs to call attention to Lieberman’s friends. He need not necessarily mention the Bush kiss — I’m sure everyone’s already aware of it — but he should remind everybody that Lieberman is Bush’s favorite Democrat. He should also point out that Joe’s received endorsements from the likes of Sean Hannity and Blonde Pundit. (I won’t say her name because I hate giving her any attention at all, but in Ned’s case it’s worth it to remind his audience that Joe Lieberman has received the endorsement of a woman who called the 9/11 widows harpies who are enjoying their husbands’ deaths.)
Go Ned go.
smack!
shoephone: yes — CSpan
Joey’s going to be a little nervous tonite, no? I mean, in a couple of months he could be working at Halliburton.
I’d like to hear Lamont say something like:
If you believe my opponent when he says that the only difference between us is our position on the war, then you should have no problem voting for me because he’s been wrong on Iraq from Day One.
If, on the other hand, you believe that we don’t need more justices like Alito and Roberts, that we don’t need government telling us what to do with our bodies, that we don’t need government telling us what to read or what music to listen to, that we need a Senator who won’t rubber stamp Dick Cheney’s energy policies and won’t marginalize other Democrats and will stand strong for Social Security… then you need to know that I am different then Joe Lieberman and George Bush and I will be representing you in Washington.
Norske is a National Treasure.
Kristinejoy at 106
Weather isn’t too bad right now (but I am a transplant from San Diego and it took me about 5 years to get used to it)
Go Ned!!! Kick so HoJo ass!! Make him cry!!!
Hey Jane and Matt-have a great time in CT-looking forward to the debate.
This campaign has the potential of being a netroots trifecta: 1) establish the bona fides of the netroots; 2)throw a bucket of cold water on the Democratic Incumbency Committe; 3) punch a big fat hole in the Beltway Mafia
The country will be sooooo much better off as a result.
Go Ned!!!
Cugo359 @ 77
It’s not that we have to do this without Boxer – it’s that we have to do it despite her.
Maybe, as LindaR said on an earlier thread, Boxer’s trying to get some mainstream Democratic credentials, rather than be seen as part of the “lunatic CA fringe”. If so, she really picked the wrong way to do that, as Lieberman’s hardly a mainstream Democrat.
She’s earned the right to disagree with us, but she’s also earned my displeasure as a result of the way she’s chosen to show that disagreement.
different than (damn)
thanks, *ilson! NPR dong a piece on Leiberman/lamont right now.
close bold?
cc #113
You mean the Department of Defense?
FYI: Boxer’s office would not confirm to me whether she is actually going to stump for Lieberman.
Ned needs to hit the music censorship issue harder — some folk agree with Liebermans position but its hardly a major draw. To many younger folk its a giant drawback: an old fogey whining about dirty music is the way they’d see Lieberman…
NPR reporting the latest CT polls show Leiberman ahead by 10 points, but race is continuing to tighten as we go..
Dover, as per usual I think you bring up some excellent points. I hope Ned points out Alito’s record since HoJo put him on the SC. Alito votes with Scalia ALL the time. Roberts votes with Scalia most of the time.
I live in KS. I am not represented by any U.S. senators. The two senators elected from KS (who never represent me) are Pat Roberts and Sam Brownback.
I would love to have a senator like Barbara Boxer.
I would, however, not be happy if she supported Joe Lieberman. I hope she comes to her senses.
karelroc at 94:
The day we start giving Boxer (or any other politician) a free pass simply because they have done good in the past is the day we lose our integrity.
I can’t agree here. I’d put that in the category of “letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Complaining to her is fine; I encourage it. Making your views known is very good. But deciding that any deviation is unacceptable is not integrity, it’s absolutism.
I work hard to get my representatives and politicians I admire to do the things I think are best. But I also recognize that in the real world, they represent more than just people who entirely agree with me, and that they’re making decisions based on more than the things that motivate me, including strategic compromises, and if I didn’t live with that, I’d have to live with constant disappointment.
Glad your getting used to it…you went in the wrong direction, IMHO. I grew up there and now live in San Diego.
I’m excited about the debate and the coverage its getting. We could sure use a win on our side…
Ive got great state legislators and a fantastic Congresswoman but for Senators I have Evan Bayh and Richard Lugar … oh well
karelroc @ 3:28 pm (#94) – What I find wrong with your position is exactly what I find wrong with all the neocons who were kvetching about how France didn’t support us in Iraq. It’s hard to think of a country that has been a more consistent friend of the U.S. since it was founded. Yet, there are times when we disagree. That shouldn’t stop us from being friends. We’re just not going to agree on some things, even some of the important things.
It’s the same with Boxer. For whatever reasons, she feels the need to support Lieberman. I don’t understand why, nor am I likely to anytime soon. But you don’t have to go back too far in the threads of this blog to find people who have observed that they wished the other California Senator showed half the progressive instinct that Sen. Boxer has. She’s been one of the few voices to speak up on any number of issues on our behalf, and has certainly made herself a target of neocon vitriol.
She’s earned our respect, and she’s shown that she’s on our side. If you’re going to start suggesting that we throw folks over the side whenever they do something you don’t agree with, you’d better learn how to row and navigate at the same time, because eventually there’ll be no one left to do it for you.
I think we need to remember who our friends are, and agree to disagree when that happens, because it’s going to. Maybe someday we’ll all look back on this as the day Barbara Boxer went over to the dark side, but I think until that happens I’m just going to say I disagree with her and move on. Frankly, we need all the friends we can get right now.
“letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Uncommonly well said.
new thread
John Casper–ctblogger got your comments before the debate!
My measley prediction for the debate is that Leaverman will try to land the first low blow. It will be something about Ned’s personal wealth and how Leaverman thinks that’s the only reason he’s in the race.
Norm 69
I wish Larry King would ask Bush what he’s always grinning.
I mean, why is this man smiling?
Dover Bitch!
That’s dead on.
I’m confident he’ll do well, but man am I nervous.
1,202 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOES ON AND ON AND…
Redshift: Right on the button about lettin’ the perfect be the enemy a the good as relates ta Boxer…and have patience, I think we’re gunna get a “clarification” of her “support” here pretty quick.
KEEP THE FAITH AND REMEMBER THAT A MOVEMENT IS MUCH MORE’N THE SUM OF IT’S PARTS AND ANYWAYS, THERE ARE MORE OF US THAN THERE ARE OF THEM!!!
*ilson46201 @ 3:33 pm (#101) – this of course is available thru the tubes of the Internets
Will a one-inch tube be big enough, or do I need to run to the office supply store?
*ilson 128
I’ve got Hutcheson and Cornyn.
(sob)
Norm DePlume: Leaverman
Ha Ha– I love it!
Wellstone’s adds, launching the legendary “Green Bus” campaign across Minnesota, coupled with Paul saying “he had to talk fast because he didn’t have the kind of money his opponent had to buy more adds” were a true home run. Like with Ventura, these adds have fun highlighting the positive qualities of the candidate.
As a Minnesotan, and someone who had a periferal role in State Government during the Ventura years, Ihave to say that behind the very controversial public antics of Jessie there was a highly talented bi-partisan group of people that made State government work better than it had for many years before… and certainly then it has in Minnesota since.
As a Voice Talent here in Minnesota I’ve had the priviledge of working on a Bill Hillsman project, and it was one of those times when you know you are working with true professionals.
Congrats Ned, and good luck! Bill’s the best.
I would like to see the debate questioners ask Lamont and Leaverman about the Supreme Court’s recent Hamdan decision, which very sensibly reined in to some degree the Bush administration’s attempt to exercise unlimited executive power.
That decision narrowly addressed the trial procedures for Guantanamo detainees. I would like to hear from Lamont and Leaverman how they feel about the Bush administration’s accross-the-board powergrab, and the failure of the Do-Nothing Rubber Stamp Congress to uphold its responsibilities as a co-equal branch of government. It’s hard for me to picture Leaverman challenging the administration on this any more than he has on a variety of other issues.
This is a very important subject that the public needs to be educated about. Does anybody know what positions the candidates have taken on over-reaching executive power and Congress’s failure to deal with it?
neurophius -
I’ll see your Brownback and Roberts and raise you a Hatch and Bennett.
Same here. I just called her washington office. I think she’s been hearing from enough people to give her pause.
I’m with Cujo359 on this:
“I won’t. Whatever Boxer’s attitude is concerning Lieberman, she’s been a consistent and outspoken critic of what’s wrong with the Bush Administration. Let’s not forget she was one of the few people who signed on with Sen. Feingold on the censure resolution. She’s earned the right to disagree with us on this. We just have to do this without her.”
I’m proud to have Boxer as my Senator and I believe she’s educatable on this. She’s been on the right side so often that I’ll cut her slack and send letters and emails to try and get her to come around.
Damn smart quotes anyway. I’ll figure out how to turn them off today.
Peterr @ 3:41 pm (#117) – She’s earned the right to disagree with us, but she’s also earned my displeasure
I disagree with her, also. She’s earned my displeasure, but that’s just how it goes sometimes. In fact, it usually hurts more when your friends disagree with you.
I don’t get this nervous before Packer games.
“…Likud honky’s ass…” #108
Perhaps a bit rough around the edges, but nevertheless, well put. Trouble is, there’s a whole lot of ‘em in both parties afraid to exert pressure on Israel to stop pressuring the U.S. government to do their bidding. Can someone, anyone, explain why it seems most American politicians are so intimidated by the Israeli government? I just don’t get it. Is it just money from AIPAC or guilt…or what? No other country in the world has this kind of control over this country. And calling those who dont’t agree with the policies of the Israeli government anti-Semitic is a gross deception.
new thread: “Live Blogging”
shoogarp-same thing I guess, huh? ations.
Cujo and Redshift –
What I am trying to allude to with my previous comments is that Boxer’s individual decisions (and any other democrat or Republicans’ decisions) need to be scrutinized one at a time.
I don’t think you will find any disagreement with me that Boxer has been one of the better and more courageous Senators California has had recently. We only wish that Feinstein had half the courage that Boxer has shown in the last few years.
All I am saying is that we cannot give Senator Boxer a free pass simply because she has been our friend in the past.
If I could look at her decision to back Lieberman and see at least some redeemable quality to her endorsement, then I would simply say “ok, I disagree but will move on.”
I do not, however, feel that her apparent decision to back Lieberman is based on any rational and principled reason (other than loyalty).
Therefore, I will not only continue to disagree with Boxer but keep calling and writing whenever I have a moment to express my disgust with her support of a neo-con in democrat clothing.
Lieberman has no business calling himself a Democrat and Boxer loses some of her luster (in my eyes) by supporting him. I continue to hope that we can change her mind and have her support Ned.
Despite Boxer’s position on this issue, I agree that it’s not reason enough to toss her under the bus. Even if Lamont doesn’t win, I think she’ll have gotten the message.
Debate thread upstairs:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..he-debate/
NorskeFlamethrower @ 3:35 pm (#108) – I think this is the heart of the matter – Lieberman and Boxer have worked together on this issue, and it would seem that Lieberman has been useful. Boxer may reconsider her support, and hasn’t committed to what she’s doing after the primary election.
can’t get the comments above to load, so I thought I would see if anyone was hanging around down here
Bill Hillsman is fab, I’m a huge fan.
That said I wish he wasn’t working for Christy Mihos, former HMO CEO, who’s running for MA Gov as an (I). Would be so much better if Hillsman’s talents were being used in service of a real insurgent w/ overwhelming grassroots support who doesn’t have a ton of money (like the uber wealthy Mihos) — ie Deval Patrick. Sigh.