
Lookee here, Junior was willing to do pretty much anything to save his own ass from being tarred with the liar brush -- but when he got cornered on the lies, he dispatched the mean team. And guess who the captain was?
Bush also told federal prosecutors during his June 24, 2004, interview in the Oval Office that he had directed Cheney, as part of that broader effort, to disclose highly classified intelligence information that would not only defend his administration but also discredit Wilson, the sources said.But Bush told investigators that he was unaware that Cheney had directed I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the vice president's chief of staff, to covertly leak the classified information to the media instead of releasing it to the public after undergoing the formal governmental declassification processes.
Bush also said during his interview with prosecutors that he had never directed anyone to disclose the identity of then-covert CIA officer Valerie Plame, Wilson's wife. Bush said he had no information that Cheney had disclosed Plame's identity or directed anyone else to do so.
Libby has said that neither the president nor the vice president directed him or other administration officials to disclose Plame's CIA employment to the press. Cheney has also denied having any role in the disclosure.
That's an awful lot of "shut the sonofabitch up, but play by the rules as you do it" from a bunch of political players who wouldn't know a rule if it bit them on the ass. We've talked about this before, but Murray Waas puts it in stark, direct terms and I want to emphasize this again:
Wilson has said he sought out White House officials, believing they did not know all the facts, and was rebuffed, he began speaking to reporters about his Niger mission, although he initially asked journalists not to reveal his identity.On June 12, 2003, the same day that news accounts appeared citing Wilson's allegations against the administration-albeit without him being named-Libby first learned from Cheney that Plame worked at the CIA and might have played a role in sending her husband to Niger. Libby's indictment stated: "On or about June 12, 2003, Libby was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division. Libby understood that the Vice President learned this information from the CIA."
Coincidence? I think not. And if you think that this group of Machiavellian back-alley revenge masters would stick firmly to the "rebuttal on the facts" when they held a trump card of not only attempting to shut Ambassador Wilson up, but intimidating other critics who might also step forward, you can think again. Family has always -- ALWAYS -- been off limits, especially family that happens to be working for the CIA in a sensitive nuclear and other WMDs arena which is vital to national security interests for the nation at the moment.
But in this case, none of that mattered because Dick Cheney's credibility had been questioned, the old bull saw red, and all bets were off. That sonofabitch Wilson was going to pay. (Can't you just hear it coming out of old Mr. GFY's mouth?)
It's going to be quite a trial for Libby when the Cheney marching orders get trotted out, isn't it?
Cheney cut Wilson's op-ed out of the newspaper and wrote in the margins: "Have they done this sort of thing before? Send an Amb[assador] to answer a question. Do we ordinarily send people out pro bono to work for us? Or did his wife send him on a junket?"
And Libby's airy "Oh, I may have glanced at it on his desk" malarky -- you think the FBI investigators and Pat Fitzgerald and his team didn't see straight through that from the moment it was uttered? Let's see, the most powerful Vice President in history, who has been given a specific charge from the President of the United States to get out the information that fully rebuts and shuts up an Administration critic on the vital lynchpin of the argument for war in Iraq...just took notes on Amb. Wilson's op-ed as a thought process exercise or as a means to work through the Sunday Jumble or something.
A central focus of Fitzgerald's investigation has been why Libby would devise a cover story on how he learned of Plame's CIA work when prosecutors had obtained Libby's own notes showing that Libby had first gotten the information from Cheney. Libby told the FBI and testified to the grand jury that he had forgotten what Cheney had told him by the time that he made the Plame disclosure to reporters."I no longer remembered it," Libby testified to the grand jury regarding his June 12 conversation with Cheney. It was only after speaking to Russert, Libby testified, that he "learned" the information about Plame's CIA employment "anew."
Federal investigators have concluded that Libby's account is implausible. They have also questioned Libby's testimony that he does not believe he discussed the matter again with Cheney until at least July 14, 2003, the date of Novak's column that called Plame an "agency operative."
Federal investigators have a substantial amount of evidence that Cheney and Libby spoke about the matter in detail shortly after Wilson's column appeared on July 6. Cheney's handwritten notes in the margin of the Wilson column are one reason that prosecutors have believed that the two men spoke earlier than Libby has said they did.
Why -- if the criminal charges against Libby are correct -- would Libby lie to the FBI and the grand jury that he was only circulating rumors he had heard from reporters?
Sources say investigators believe it is possible that Libby was trying to obscure Cheney's role in the Plame leak -- either by the vice president directing Libby to leak her CIA status, or through a general instruction from Cheney encouraging Libby to get the word out about Plame's role in sending Wilson to Niger. They say it is also possible that Libby lied to conceal the fact that he leaked Plame's identity to the press without Cheney's approval.Another important reason that Cheney and Libby may have spoken about Plame shortly after July 6, rather than July 12, is that Libby testified that he and Cheney talked on a regular basis after July 6 about how to counteract Wilson's allegations. During grand jury testimony, a prosecutor asked Libby whether this was "a topic that was discussed on a daily basis?" Libby replied: "Yes, sir." When the prosecutor followed up by saying, "And it was discussed on multiple occasions each day, in fact?" Libby again responded: "Yes, sir."
Asked why the matter was so important to Cheney, Libby replied: "He wanted to get all the facts out about what he had or hadn't done-what the facts were or were not. He was very keen on that and said it repeatedly: Let's get everything out."
Libby further testified that Cheney was not referring to going public with information about Plame, but rather making available other classified information that both men believed would rebut Wilson's charges and discredit him.
By any means necessary. You think that wasn't the marching order for Libby, Rove and the gang? You think Karl Rove would flinch at an ends justifies the means mission after all his dirty tricks? But do you think for a moment that, if Karl Rove felt like he was being set up or double crossed by the "allies" who fed him the information to complete the dirty task that he wouldn't turn it around on them to save his own ass -- and that of his boss and his political legacy as he sees it?
Yeah, that's what I thought, too.
But the question of how expendable Irving Lewis Libby was to his boss keeps running through my mind, reading through the last portion of Waas' article. Cheney and Addington have been, and are still, awfully tight -- two neocon peas in a pod. And Irving -- the only one under indictment.
And Libby "testified that he spoke to David Addington, then Counsel to the Vice President, whom [Libby] considered to be an expert in national security law, and Mr. Addington opined that presidential Authorization to publicly disclose a document amounted to a declassification of a document."A senior government official familiar with the matter said that in directing Libby to leak the classified information to Miller and other reporters, Cheney said words to the effect of, "The president wants this out," or "The president wants this done."
There's a whole lot of throwing under the bus going on in the finger-pointing mess of ass-covering mendacity, isn't there? George Bush points the finger at Cheney -- I told him to get the word out, but I didn't mean for him to have anyone betray a CIA agent. Irving is protecting Cheney's flank...all the while Cheney and Addington are protecting Cheney's flank. Which leaves Irving where, exactly? All the monetary donations to his legal trust fund in the world can't disguise the fact that Scooter was hung out to be the bait if they got caught...and his loyalty to the boss would be the firewall. How does it feel to be the scapegoat, Scooter? You gonna bet the farm -- and your family -- on these clowns?
And Rover? When push came to shove, he testified on five separate occasions -- that we know about -- and his loyalty is to himself and to Bushie. Which begs the question, if the President pointed the finger squarely at Dick Cheney, dumping any responsibility and accountability into his lap, how likely is it that Rover did the same thing? And truly, if Mr. Dirty Tricks himself is working on the backdoor double cross, how much behind the scenes machinations do we not know about at this point -- and how comfortable are you right now if you are Dick Cheney?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave...I'm just glad Murray's still working his sources on this, because I have this nagging feeling that a whole lot more is about to spill out any second.
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fitz!
MURRAY!
Impeach them!
Fitz!
Fitz!
ok, got that out of the way, now for my comment
ya, raw story told us about waas’s article yesterday and I posted a snippet
as you say christy, we already know this data here on firedoglake, but somehow waas is able to take public information and re visit the point in new terms.
he actually clained in an interview that 90 percent of his reporting is simply rediscovering documents and ideas that are public but went un noticed
nicely done
however I am concerned the investigation will end with the a whimper instead of the bang we would like to see
time will tell, but it would seem time has passed too long
FITZ
Why am I reminded of TS Eliot’s “Murder in the Cathedral” all of a sudden?
Is there really any question now that libby will be pardoned before this gets to trial? These guys have shown that they could care less about any accountability and a pardon on Xmas eve, when any and all MSM journalists of any repute are on holiday, will be shown by the b-team media as “an act of mercy during this holiday season” and, by the time people are made aware of just what happened, it will be “old news”.
Cynical much? Yeah I am.
after the bombshell that Bush had delegated the attack on the Wilsons to Cheney, the second most interesting part was the Addington opinion that the President had the power to declassify anything instantly if he so wished . . .
Isn’t there a scenario where after Bush told Cheney to “go after Wilson”, he claims to have de-classified the CIA information. That seems to have let everyone off the hook. Where does that scenario stand?
Don’t know about that Christmas-Eve pardon thingy, but in the category of “Acts of Mercy,” the latest (slightly-)exposed plagiarist certainly seems to be receiving one. Given her notoriety, this is passing strange.
Thanks to Murray and thanks to Christy.. we were looking forward to this one. It is typical that there is no mention that I can find of any of this in CorporateMediaLand. And they wonder why we’re pissed off. Does this finally prove once and for all that Bush knew about his merry pranksters from the very beginning, while he was spouting his denials and lies on TV? I think it does.
I have been limited to fdl for the last few days and this am went over to Glenn’s where I read the thread about the ridiculous RWC theories about the Travel article in the NYT. I love to read Glenn but his threads have become a troll target that is hard to stomach sometimes. Seixon was there and a couple of his cronies, just as insane as you like. You can smell the fear like blood in the water.
I read the Waas article the other day when Me to me mentioned it.
I didn’t see anything new in there, but I really liked the way he laid it out in logical sequence.
In the Frontline story a they described Pat’s role as “shining a light” onto how this administration is doing things.
I think that has been his greatest value. It’s not the corekeeping thing about how many indictments, how many counts in the indictment, how many convictions, or the sentencing guidelines calculation. That stuff’s just for fun as far as I am concerned. (and it is fun. It’s the Plame porn as Jane calls it)
But the real value, is the the drip drip drip of revelation after revelation of lies, abuses, breaking the spirit of not the letter of the laws, the tyranny.
It’s Pat speaking truth to power. Not being intimidated. Just doing his job, no matter how threatening Rover or Deadeye may think they are.
It’s not just the revelations brought out by his own work. It’s the example he sets; of steadfastness to duty, of speaking the truth, of observing both the letter and the spirit of the laws.
Think how hard it must be for him to keep his mouth shut when he is unfairly attacked. Don’t you think, sitting on all that nice juicy Grand Jury material (and probabaly some info that came w/o a GJ subpeona and so is not technically subject to Rule 6 secrecy), that every now and then he might not be tempted to “get the facts out”? Yet he doesn’t defend himself. He takes a beating so as to protect is investigation.
That is courage. That is a man.
If Bush pardons Libby after the election and before the trial, will Fitz go quietly back to Chicago?
If yes, then the only person left to tell the whole story is George Tenet. Will he?
Tenet’s loyalties are complex. The complete truth may/will never come to light.
lhp, you render fine justice to a patriot this morning. Thank you.
That’s a great picture.
*ilson — the Addington thing is, to me, the least interesting thing, since Addington has repeatedly made clear his opinion that executive power trumps everything. Unless I missed something here?
lina, you’re right about Tenet as holder of the keys to this whole would-be kingdom — but whether he has the character to match his responsibilities is a test he’s already flunked. As has Colin Powell.
Lotus
I have been a fan of Pat Fitz’s for a long long time. Both the lawyer and the person. They don’t come any better.
Christy,
Where di you get that pix?
It’s the sort of thing folks used to use to scare small children into eating their veggies.
It should be the illustration to a Grimm Bothers Story!
Dratty at 7:05
Your comment makes me sick.
Because I think you are right.
It’s the near anniversary of Lawrence O’Donnell’s comment about Matt Cooper’s source last year, “It’s Rove.”
Now it’s Murray Waas’ turn, “It’s Bush” and “It’s Cheney.”
Oh yeah, it’s another anniversary too and they did something about it back then, something pretty wonderful, The Declaration of Independence, a post from the past by our earliest bloggers.
I was reading it this morning with George W. substituted for King George - a remarkable exercise in the monotony of the methodology of ‘petty tyrants’.
I’m sorry, I’m sure this has been talked about. Who exactly saved and turned over NYT paper with Cheneys notes on it?
Well, lhp, he’s certainly the one the times require — and it still stuns me that, in this ghastly milieu, he could have appeared.
..,Mr. Addington opined that presidential Authorization to publicly disclose a document amounted to a declassification of a document.”
I may be wrong, but I do not think even the president can declassify the name of an undercover agent. That would seem to me to be an Espionage Act violation.
ReneND, that hasn’t come out.
when the criminal prosecution is over - one way or the other - perhaps some lesser known insider will step forward with the truth.
Waas, Fitz, Redd…
we’re gonna fuck up these Cheney junta fascist fucks yet.
Aren’t you kind of wondering about the timing of the Waas article? I have been - it takes some things that have been floating around a bit already and organizes them really well, but I wonder why now? Does Murray know something, or is someone a little steamed about something and wants another nudge to go out on the case?
The “discredit Wilson” part is new, though. To date, everything has been carefully couched in terms of the NIE release being done to bolster and defend the Administration’s “go to war” case. Now Waas is saying that those who know about the conversations or testimony are saying the President specifically was authorizing the use of classified info to go after a perceived political enemy. Yep, that’s the guy to serve a repository for our nation’s defense secrets. Makes me think of a word that rhymes with repository.
So — is something in the words with a case by the Wilsons perhaps? Something to make a story highlighting the concerted actions to discredit Wilson taking place throughout the WH and WHIG, an effort that was authorized in the WH, by the President?
I still say anyone who wants much more from the Spec. Pros. than the info that George W. Bush himself specifically took classified info and said cherrypick it and release the good stuff for me AND KEEP HIDING THE BAD STUFF FOR ME is greedy.
And now tack on what Waas has put in print, that Bush also said - do that TO DISCREDIT MY POLITICAL ENEMY.
How often does something like that come out, in print and/or court filings, about a sitting President? Nixon?
And btw, who leaked Bush’s testimony? A crony? I would think not. A low level official? Would a low level official even know how Bush testified?
Sounds like a leak from the prosecutors office. A little pushback? A message? A warning?
I don’t understand how a blowjob brought down Clinton, yet this stuff seems to have little effect.
It’s treason and betrayal for political gain -To maintain a false reason to go to war.
I know we all know this but why aren’t there any CONSEQUENCES from the public.
Is it because we don’t have a megaphone of similiar scope yet? Is it because we don’t have an army of lawyers filing civil suits? Is it because we don’t have the support of the elected officials pushing the story forward? All of the above? Something else?
Is it because America is truly more afraid and ashamed of a blowjob than what went on here?
I’m not ragging on Fitz, and his integrity is inspiring, but a Ken Starr approach might have had more impact. That sucks, and shouldn’t be.
Mornin’ lambs. Happy Fourth of July (he says ruefully, hoping it’s not for the last time, what with all the criminality going on and the cornered tyrants)
Me to me sed of Waas: he actually claimed in an interview that 90 percent of his reporting is simply rediscovering documents and ideas that are public but went unnoticed.
Larry Beinhart, the guy who wrote the book that became the movie Wag the Dog, calls that “Fog Facts” and has written a little book about it. We are inundated with uncorrelated information. Much of the information we need to indict the entire administration is already in the public domain, in little bits and pieces. Journalists have gotten so lazy (not you, Murray!) that they don’t bother to hunt them down anymore.
Dratty at 8
It depends so much on the midterm elections this Nov.
If we take back a house of Congress, Libby’s pardon would be the best thing that ever happened to the search for truth b/c his testimony before Congress could be compelled and he cant take the 5th!!!!!
Further, he COULD still face future prosecuption if he lies to Congress. Don’t forget that none of the info in Pat’s investigation goes away. It doesn’t get shreaded.
It gets subpeonaed by Congress (then a court order from the presiding judge allowing it’s disclosure) and then voila, it gets turned over and YOU KNOW the Congress will not be tight lipped like Pat.
Their obl8gation is the opposite of his. Their obligation (under the open meetings laws) is to do as much as possible in the open on the public record.
So, dear Dratty, be of good cheer. And help some Dem somewhere take back a Congressional seat. Regaining a House of Congress is the key to ….. everything.
Oh, and don’t think Karl & Co. don’t think that too
Leaking classified information??
Will the House now draft a resolution condemning the White House for revealing covert government files and placing the lives of Americans in danger?
looseheadprop@22 says:
“Where did you get that pix?
It’s the sort of thing folks used to use to scare small children into eating their veggies”
Who knew the Vice Prez was like totally into cosplay. In this pic he’s trying to look like Burgess Meridith’s “Penguin.”
This shot sucks because they left out the cigarette holder… and he’s got like totally the right one.
Btw, here’s the reason we’re all off today. No musty old thing, but the marching orders to all humans though all time against tyrannical boots on necks…
it’s 630pm in Baghdad and it’s up to 108ºF — airconditioning is problematical because the power is probably down — the Deputy Minister of Electricity and 19 of his bodyguards just got kidnapped…
the skools is gettin painted!
Sharkie, YAYEZZ!
I feel a hint of change in the wind,FOX Ratings DOWN,Dana P.bitch/slaps” Bill the holy,ass” on MTP, Bush oks CIA leak, Bush shuts down TEAM that WAS searching for bin laden.POLLS still going down,Soldiers that have been in IRAQ, being heard and hopefully being heard by others like Murtha. HAPPY 4TH EVERYONE.PS (”4 months to the day of the “06″ midterm elections). HEE HAW!!!!!! See you all at Party after”. Nana Pam
Fitz ‘n’ Rove, BFF!!!
Fitz ‘n’ Rove, sittin’ in a tree!!!
It’s going to be quite a trial for Libby when the Cheney marching orders get trotted out, isn’t it?
That’s why there is never going to be a trial. The threat to ‘National Security’ (cough*Bush Security*cough) is too great. They can’t let it happen — the cost benefit/ratio of a pre-emptive pardon is obvious: Pardon Libby, the story goes away; let it go to trial, and all of the dirt becomes a front page and nightly news soap opera for months.
Look at everything we know, starting with this Murray Waas article. BushCo is guilty as sin, with Bush himself the central actor in the crime. Where has the Establishment Media coverage been? Down in Aruba, looking for social register entries on Valerie Wilson.
Seriously — Patrick Fitzgerald had all the facts he needed to blow this case wide open in 2004. Instead, he chose to put together an airtight case on perjury and lying to investigators, and deliver that in an untimely matter — which begs for a preemptive pardon to make it all go away.
Pat Fitzgerald gets attaboys for being a thorough and diligent prosecutor, and the perps get to walk because, because . . . gosh darn it, the pieces of the puzzle never came together in a timely manner and that’s the way it goes.
Well — that’s the way it goes for BushCo. On the other hand, those who oppose BushCo are more likely to be smeared and marginalized, or turned into road kill if they get too close.
Well, at least Pat Fitzgerald has his reputation — and the freedom to announce a criminal investigation of the Democratic Governor of Illinois three months before an election.
What was that about prosecutors holding their cards close to the vest until they indict?
It gets worse people…
Their betrayal of us is finally complete.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....nted=print
Sunny at 30,
We don’t know that the Bush testimony was “leaked”
For example, the transcript from the last court appearance is not up. In the past, pat has dropped the occasional bombshell during oral argument.
It could have been there.
Or it could be about to come out and Bushco leaked it to take some of the sting out of it when it shows up in a brief or something.
you know, pre epmtive leaking.
Porco Rosso
The Penguin!!
That’s it. I knew that picture reminded me of something, but couldn’t put my fingure on it.
Great
Mary’s 28 and Urban Pirate’s 30 make quite a combo, n’est-ce pas?
WHERE is this in NYT, WaPo, WSJ, and LAT??? If I’m appalled that they haven’t picked up on Coulter’s plagiarism, how much worse that they’re not out there competing with Murray to get the Plame goods?
We’ve bemoaned this a thousand times, but every day it poleaxes me anew.
Amazing that this all could go on, that I could know about it considering I’m a citizen in NJ without any inside connections, and yet they still are in power.
All the more reason to keep focused on changing the power structure, and take the negeative energy they are creating, and turn it back on them.
As has been said, nothing really new here, same old disgusting, fascistic story. Even the original pre-WW11 fascists weren’t claiming to be the champions of democracy as they scorched the earth.
I can only pray that the members of this administration and everyone tied to their despicable plans, receives their comeuppance.
I know that the Plame investigation has slipped out of the public consciousness, but I was wondering if it was acknowledged to be over here at FDL? I haven’t been able to keep up here in recent weeks and I read Christy’s opinion re: it’s ain’t over the Fitz says it’s over…but I was just wondering if that was still the feeling, several weeks afterward?
And in the spirit of Independence Day, from the Declaration of Independence:
whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate, that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
With Mary Matlin (Cheny’s female and very public attack dog) and her hubby, James Carvelle (ex-democratic strategist) doing a fund raiser for scooter in their own home recently, it suggests that scooter is unlikely to introduce Cheney as part of his defense in any serious way.
Hey ck at 41 — you think we would know about Cheney’s marching orders on the NYTimes article without the Libby indictment? How about Bush’s throwing Cheney under the bus to save his own ass? The tight cabal of information being disseminated and looked into about the Wilsons? The use of CIA and State Department resources to do oppo on the Wilsons? The…well, I could go on, but there is substantial value in having that information in public hands above and beyond any convictions, and it is high time that everyone woke the fuck up and realized that.
An air-tight indictment ensures that the process goes forward and facts come out. That’s a shitload of value for me, anyway, and I would also guess a shitload of value for the rest of us following this case and beyond. You think Bush’d poll numbers and trustworthiness ranking went down all by their lonesome? Nope, it’s the drip, drip, drip…Katrina is a big part of it, but this case does it as well. And every filing in the Libby matter, we learn something new. And so does everyone else as it seeps out into the public consciousness.
And that has a lot of value.
ilson 38 - I wish I could make that evil piece of fuck chimp endure for even a day the utter hell his bullshit vanity has created for 25m people - then again I tell myself that no matter how anything looks, karma is inescapable - these bastards WILL get it back, somehow someday someway.
Or it could be about to come out and Bushco leaked it to take some of the sting out of it when it shows up in a brief or something.
you know, pre epmtive leaking.
To Murray Waas?
No, this sounds like prosecutors leaking to a friendly reporter. For what purpose, I do not know.
When Bush and Cheney, both spectacularly corrupt, are the best a political party has to offer, it’s time for that party to lose power and spen a decade or so reinventing itself.
Sadly, I agree at this point with ck
CK
There was nothing new in the letter Pat sent to the Illinois Attorney General.
The bombshell was revealed back when (was it 2004?) the Inspector Genral’s report came out. It has bee public for a long time. So has the news that both the US Attorney’s Office and State AG were disussing who should take the lead.
The release of the letter to hhe state AG contained nothing new.I don’t know why the Chicago Tribune spun it that way other than the fact that it was the relaese of ANYTHING AT ALL related to a PJF investigation, so the actual fact of the release of the letter was the news.
Getting ready to watch the 4th of July Parade here in Park City, Utah (the parade is mostly dogs) and wanted to wish everyone a great 4th!
America! Let’s take it back!
Jay at 47 — that’s still my feeling. Even prosecutors get to rotate through their cases and take a break for the holidays. And I can tell you from personal experience that if I had a case where I knew in my gut someone was guilty, and had some evidence to be able to charge them but not everything I needed, I pursued it to the fullest extent I could, for as long as it took. (You know, like the Ryan case took Fitz 8 years.) There is nothing — NOTHING — more disgusting than finding public officials who have abused their position of power and the public trust to act in their own self-interest and who have betrayed other public actors — especially undercover ones — in the process. Period.
Just found this and didn’t know if it had been linked. It’s an interview with Bruce Fein which it pretty enlightening and interesting. FYI
http://www.nonesoblind.org/blog/?p=237
Jay at 47 and Self at 22:
The ‘Independence Day’ analogy is really compelling isn’t it?
…evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
The timing of Waas’ piece got me wondering, too, Mary. I doubt it’s coming from Fitz’ side of the courtroom - not his style at all - which means that someone’s getting nervous. Those bus tire tracks on Irving’s back don’t look confortable to someone, but who?
Cheney? Addington? Rover?
And why are they nervous? LHP alluded to it, by refering to Congress and the elections. Despite the “we don’t look at polls” nonsense that comes from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, someone’s been looking at polling data and doesn’t like what they see.
Henry Waxman, chairing the House Government Reform committee.
John Conyers, chairing the House Judiciary committee.
Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.
Visions like that give nightmares to BushCo, and give Fitz an awfully big club to wield.
It’s Chicago Rules, and don’t thing BushCo doesn’t know that.
zenny, howya feeling this morning? Better, I hope?
Oh, they think it is all in the bag. Only Libby must stand trial. And then Bush will pardon him. Sound silly? Not in America 2006. I would hope there is too much information out there, but I am totally disgusted with the American people. The polls should be against the entire GOP 90-10%. But are they? Nope. Americans are the dumbest group in the world. And you know I am not talking about those who read Firedoglake and other progressive blogs. But how often do I see — TODAY — the number of chatters who say their family is STILL Republican? And I cringe when my own mother said — in 2004: “Why do you always want to talk about politics?? There is more to life than that!” Is there, at this time?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5145654.stm
Mickey,
Hadn’t read through the entire thread before posting, we agree on the signifigance of that passage: “it is our duty to throw off such government”. How prescient and critical a message from the Founding Father’s. As I read the Declaration this morning, that was unquestionably the line that jumped out at me.
Sunny at 51
I don’t think they would nessecarily leak directly to Waas. But when you know there is a particular reporter working on a story, it is not so hard to make sure he gets what you want him to get through indirect means.
In fact one of the things that has urpisd me about these revelations is the use of high level people to leak. In the olden days, you used a very low level, but bright, person to leak. I would explain why, but don’t want to coach any future perjury from any leakers who don’t already know.
I admit, that possibility would be more likely if we were talking about a NYT or Wapo story, though.
“But do you think for a moment that, if Karl Rove felt like he was being set up or double-crossed by the ‘allies’ . . .that he wouldn’t turn it around on them to save his own ass etc.” Christy, are you suggesting, as some have already, that Rove flipped? I agree with Dratty and others that this will never come to trial and that Libby will be pardoned after the election and before trial date and/or Fitzgerald will be fired. Our only hope to get at the truth is what looseheadprop said about a change in Congress. Would all of Fitzgerald’s evidence and Fitzgerald himself be subpoenable?
How is that Murray alone has these “in the room at the time” sources? Surely the big-name reporters deal with the same people all the time, yet they’ve been co-opted? What? They just know better than to put certain questions? They’re that fearful? They’re that lax? WHAT?
lhp- so Bush wants the world to know he authorized the campaign against Wilson, starting with a potential Espionage Act violation?
if you just wanted to leak where it will get seen by the Plamo-cognoscenti, Waas would be superb — for a bigtime public media splash (bombshell) you’d do the WaPo/NYtimes level leak …
I hope you’re right, Redd.
Incomprehensively Demoralized.
Another question that nags me is why the asshole who orchestrated the “Brooks Brothers” riot has a nigh profile position, and is not in jail.
I have a 5 year old, and in parenting I would call that “reinforcing bad behavior”.
Seems like that happens all the time, shit even Holy Joe is getting in on the act. These pols act is spectacularly bad faith, breaking laws, stretching ethics, making rules up to cover their past sins, all with seeming impunity.
Plame
ARMPAC
AIPAC
TRMPAC
Abramoff
NH Phone Jamming
Florida ‘00
Ohio ‘04
Urinary Executive (too many to type)
& many, many more.
All horrible shit. Dirty. Disgusting quid pro quo to establish their goals.
Each one coordinated by the Executive office and the RNC.
It irks me. No wonder they feel the ends justify the means. They never get punished.
Now that Jr. has declared the investigation over, and since all Libby has been charge with are lying-to-investigator related crimes, seems Jr. should be free to explain when he told Cheney to “Get it out” and what exactly “it” was.
God that Iraq rape-murder case is - just reduces me to nothing - the evil, evil - from the second these junta assholes made their invasion plans, the monstrosities of otherwise possibly ordinary humans were set in motion - it is more than I can endure to think of this utterly pointless evil, destruction, death, maiming, lifelong heartache of thousands and thousands - and I don’t even know an Iraqi or a US soldier there personally - god DAMN these mass murderers to hell - I know how Cindy Sheehan feels, how sweltering terrified Iraqis must feel, their lives utterly shattered while I go about mine in comfort%u2026AAAAARRRRGGHHH
Have a great Fourth, folks. Sometimes I feel like the most naive person in the world, that I still believe that Of the People, By the People and For the People means anything now. But hope springs a turtle and the tipping point is nigh.
Off with the whole Brain family to march in a parade. 8 am and it’s only 75! The last few weeks have been well over 100 every day. Katymine, can I come sit in your AC?
When Christy refers to turdblossom as rover, the song “Who Let the Dogs Out” pops immediately into my head.
OT: I got a call yesterday asking for contributions to paralyzed veterans but she identified Insight as being a sponsor. Isn’t Insight a rightwing group/publication? Anyone got any information on this?
Re - pardon possibilites - I posted this @http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com/ the other day. Got flayed and filleted a bit, but fwiw:
Fitz’s war-gaming - fascinating stuff I think. High-stakes poker indeed. Bush has the ability to pardon, Fitz has the ability to bring more indictments. Fitz is holding more and better cards . IMO, Bush can play the pardon card maybe once while in office, once at the end of his term - tops. Two would be seriously pushing it - to even use his one in-office pardon on Libby is risky in a few ways: a) it smacks of Saturday-Night-Massacre a la Nixon, b) as per above, a blanket pardon makes Libby an potential unprotected witness against the administration, c) pardoning Libby as to only the areas charged (obstruction, perjury, false statements) might just induce Fitz to go all-in and charge the underlying offenses involving blowing the cover of a CIA agent (which play would not necessarily be limited to Libby - all sorts of fun names could pop up). I just don’t see how GWB could extend an in-office pardon to Libby which would cover the possibility of Libby’s outing a CIA agent - total political death - he needs to save that one for December 2008. Of course, in Dec 2008, he can just pardon anybody he feels like pardoning for anything they’ve ever done while ’serving’ the president.
Now, a smart prosecutor might, if faced with a pardon of Libby’s obstruction, realize that *Conspiracy* to obstruct is an altogether different, stand-alone charge (the crime is the conspiracy, not the obstruction). It would, I think, be sufficiently different from the original charges so as to stand on its own, and have the added benefit of once again necessarily bringing in some of those other interesting names.
I also like the conspiracy angle because the statute of limitations on a conspiracy to obtruct charge wouldn’t even begin to run until said conspiracy has ceased functioning. Let’s just say - no problems there.
I’m just scratching the surface here - but it sure is interesting. And if I had to pick which side of the game I’d rather be on - for this one time I’m gonna pick the prosecution.
Feel free to flay and/or fillet.
p.s. I think I sprained a finger typing the pro-prosecution part. But - fair and balanced, etc.,etc.
p.p.s. Preview not working for me at the moment - hope I don’t blow the place up again.
Bush better watch his back. Or face. A pissed off Cheney as history shows is reckless and imprudent. What better way to instigate marshall by the use of an attempted or successful assassination. Blame it on a terrorist
group and the crusade has begun. Or maybe I am suffering from an inflated and distorted form of follie au du. These days I cannot tell when I am being insightful or crazied.
Mary McCurnin — how GOOD to see you back! I’ve been thinking of you ever since your last visit. How are you and family?
isn’t it pitiful that in the richest country in the world, that supporters of paralyzed veterans are reduced to begging over the telehone for charity?
Ironranger 73 - Insight is a moonie times Newsweek.
We wouldn’t want the smoking gun to be a balding head…
Christy Hardin Smith said: “You think Bush’d poll numbers and trustworthiness ranking went down all by their lonesome? Nope, it’s the drip, drip, drip%u2026Katrina is a big part of it, but this case does it as well.”
I also think that people have paid heed to Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 911, which was heavily repressed before the 2004 election. Cable television has been running it at least once a week since after the election and I think its presence in the public consciousness in the period before and after Katrina has gone a long way toward pulling the wool off a lot of conservative eyes.
I give Fitz credit for bringing the indictment against Libby last fall; it was instrumental in breaking through the 40% JAR floor that was holding Bush up.
But that is it. Libby will be pardoned during the holidays, to protect “National Security.” Libby will never testify before Congress, to protect “National Security.”
The truth has dribbled out, and will continue to do so for decades to come. But justice will not be served, and the perps will walk.
Hell, the perps have already walked — by keeping the lid on the investigation through 2004, the perps managed to smear John Kerry and impugn his patriotism. Now, with the trial scheduled for 2007, they will sneak past the 2006 elections, smearing the Democrats and impugning their patriotism.
The Establishment Media will dutifully play along, reporting on Bush resolve and Democratic disarray.
In the spring of 2004, I was one of the optimists at the Whiskey Bar, thinking that Abu Ghraib was the scandal that would blow the BushCo Crime Syndicate wide open. Billmon was the cynic in chief, and sad to say, I have joined him. BushCo is untouchable — mostly because the Establishment Media lets them get away with murder.
The American Public has seen through the BS — but that is my only hope. The Mighty Democratic Message Machine? God help us all . . .
Speaking of enjoying great old commenters popping up - was sure nice to see Gentleman Jim on last thread - that guy nails shit with economy and beauty every time.
Hey can Jamie do something about %u2026 etc crapola?
In further support of what Christy said at 56:
I used to do public corruption cases. They are very different from any other kind of white collar case. In fact they have more in commen with mob cases, but are tougher still even than those. (Done all three and drug cases, know from whence I speak)
In mob cases, you have to deal with collateral attacks on you evidence, specifically your witnesses. The mob tries to intimidate them and if that doesn’t work, to kill them. (These days, I spend some time representing the widows and orphans of murdered witnesses from trials.) You have to build a case that can survive even if your witnesses don’t.
So, it takes a “little” longer.
In public corruption cases, you have collateral attacks on you witness, though they usually don’t get murdered. But they often get so discredited that they are as good as dead because you can’t use em.
PLUS, you collateral attacks on the prosecutor and specail pressures applied to the judge. I have seen judges knuckle under when public pressure ran against a case.
In my experience, you spend more than 50% of your time trying to hold on the the authority and tools you need to do your case and the lesser time actually doing the work. That’s why they take so long.
Also, in Public corruption cases, especailly federal ones, the witnesses that go after are not just your citizen witnesses, it’s you ragent too. They subtely intimidate them, or sometimes outright transfer them (actually, they promote them into a job where they can’t work on the case any more. it’s a beautiful screw over b/c it leaves no bruises, you (and the agent) can’t claim retaliation b/c he got promoted.
I got promoted out of the biggest investigation of my life and it got handed to someone with no experience and no stomach for it, so it died. I am still sick over it.
Before that, I learned the hard way that the biggest mistake I could make was to tell an agent’s suprerior that he had (I never seemed to get women agents) a real gift for public integrity work. It was almost guraenteed to get him promoted against his will before he had completed his work on my case.
Oh and my altime favorite. I was just talking about it with an agent I used to work with. We are both still scarred by this experience.
Once a prosecutor we worked with, a guy who genuinly believed he was going to grow up to be US AG–and no one doubted he might, he had the stuff, was framed for a crime he did not commit.Why, for daring to investigate a politician who would stop at nothing.
Eventually, he was cleared. But not before his career was destroyed.
There is so much that goes on that never makes it into the public realm. The pressures on Pat are not just related to his own willpower or integrity. It is literally pressure to figure out how not to get taken out of the game.
The thing that keeps me up. The thing I fear, it the Saturday Night Massacre. Either overtly (which I have kinda come to doubt) or indirectly, which I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the logistics of.
It would not surprise me if PJF spend a couple few minutes trying to figure that out, too
the VRWC went hyper-drive batshit crazy demonizing Michael Moore and Fahrenheit 911 in 2004. They were scared something fierce ! That movie was too damn powerful for it not to have had an impression on the US political consciousness…
I think the only way we are going to know what happened is for Congress to get involved. And that can only happen if the Democrats take over one branch of Congress.
The DOJ, no matter who they appoint, cannot investigate the WH, especially with Gonzales heading that agency. It’s unfair to assume a career prosecutor, who loves his job, is going to be unfettered in pursuing these guys. And Fitz has drawn his mandate so narrowly that we will never get to the bottom of what happened.
We need Congressional oversight. Badly.
Oh and … Lamont!
See? I told you people eons ago it wasn’t Rove but Cheney!
Nachkatze at 65
Yes, Pat and the evidence could be supeonaed by Congress. He would have to go to the presiding judge to get an order (Rule 6 g IIRC–It’s a holiday, i’m too lazy to go to lexis)
A 6G Order allows you to turn over GJ material for a specific public purpose. To answer another subpeona is one of those purposes
Good Morning Patriots !
Sharkbabe,
have been crawling around the National Archives all morning (I told V your handle is Marion the Librarian - hope you don’t mind, he’ll be in touch)
Everyone -
the link below is also to the Declaration of Independence BUT ! it allows you to join the Founders, SIGN IT ! and print out a copy - (color or b/w)
complete with warnings about the consequences
http://www.archives.gov/nation.....gners.html
of course the link includes lots of inspirational info (your 5th grade social studies teacher would be so proud)
A Glorious and Happy Fourth To All Who Cherish Liberty !!!
lotus- thanks, I’m a little more coherent, but still funky.
I’m with Christy on this, there is still an investigation and it should surprise nobody here that there is no coverage of this in corp media. Cocktail weenies, anyone? In the Fein interview I linked to above, he talks about how the masses are more interested in the skirmish of the day, and the win for their partisan agenda rather than the history of the constitution, a reading of the Federalist Papers or the long range implication of their devotion to the current administration. He puts it much more elegantly, ie: “Bush’s precedents are dangerous, and will lie around like loaded weapons readily unleashed by any incumbent in times of strife or conflict, e.g., a second edition of 9/11. Political science, however, remains in its infancy.”
It’s not just a question of giving up on this particular case, on Pat Fitzgerald, just because the results aren’t coming fast enough for the 2006 news cycle. It’s more a matter of thinking about where this case goes over the long run. As I’ve said a bunch of times and as Murray has again told us yesterday, we don’t know what we don’t know that the SP and the GJ do know.
looseheadprop, I admit I got a little irked with Fitzgerald about the letter to Lisa Madigan being made public at nearly the time Rove was “cleared”. So you think it is the very Republican Chicago Tribune stirring up old news now? They, all of a sudden, have been very hip-hip-hoorahy about Fitzgerald while very cold toward him re the CIA leak investigation.
Sunny at 67
Of course Bush doesn’t want the world to know. But if he knows it is going to come out soon anyway, he wants to get it out ahead of time especailly to a low ciruclation publication, so when it hits it won’t be a bombshell.
The W?H can tell the big MSM reporteres “news, What News? this ihas been out for weeks. this is old. move along, nothing to see here”
Bush, may have ordered Cheney and company to leak Valerie Plame’s name to the press but as everyone knows Bush isn’t what you would call an original thinker, so I guess the real question should be, Who sugested to Bush to pass on to Cheney to pass on to Scooter Libby to leak Valerie Plames name to the press.
Could it have been Bushes other brain KKK Karl Rove who in all likelyhood was at the true center of this whole affair.
A thought just occurred to me shortly after what Christy said about the Ryan case taking 8 years. If this investigation goes past the Bush presidency, and Libby is the only one charged, and most likely pardoned, if we get a Democrat in the White House, and charges are filed under the new president, the chances of a pardon are greatly reduced.
I know there’s a lot of ifs involved, however from what I see the legal process takes time, and if it’s done right it’s worth it. What if a honest and just president refuses a pardon for the criminal and his cohorts. Talk about karma.
One of the many things I love about FDL is the rational voice that permeates through. The focus is on the truth, and actions to take to enforce it as citizens. Even a free and open discussion is an action. It keeps the issue alive, and one never knows what the outcome could be. A new point of view, inspiration to someone who’s lurking, etc.
I get frustrated and angry believe me, however I try to keep the focus on doing the right things and pushing back. And as long as I have my rights to do so I will.
Happy Independence Day, go forth and exercise your right to peaceful assembly, free speech and dissent. It the ultimate celebration of what this day is about.
1,201 DAYS AND THE KILLIN’ GOES ON AND ON AND…
Me to Me and Mommybrain:
The first one to use public documents and public utterences almost exlusively to expose governmental lyin’ and corporate political actions was the man who wrote the book on investigative reportin’, Mr. I. F. Stone. Everyone here at FDL should read up on this most patriotic of patriots and to those who are still stumped by the false conflict between factual reporting and point of view journalism, here is the best example that factual journalism and point of view are not only compatible but, in most cases, necessary….you can’t have one without the other.
KEEP THE FAITH FOLKS AND DO YER HOMEWORK, OUR KIDS ARE GUNNA NEED A LITTLE HELP CLEANIN’ UP THE MESS WE’VE MADE OF EDEN!!!
new thread ! rogue or rouge?