
Sometimes, you just need to go back to the beginning to get a sense of how far from the path you have strayed. In this case, I thought a look back at some of our Founding Documents, and the words of our Founders, would be more than appropriate for this Independence Day.
Let's begin with the Declaration of Independence:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them....
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers....
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power....
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation....
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people....
And, in the words of Thomas Paine, "these are the times that try men's souls." But they are also the times where we look to our own hearts and minds for guidance and a way forward. And I thought this Paine passage was most applicable in that vein:
The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Many circumstances hath, and will arise, which are not local, but universal, and through which the principles of all Lovers of Mankind are affected, and in the Event of which, their Affections are interested. The laying a Country desolate with Fire and Sword, declaring War against the natural rights of all Mankind, and extirpating the Defenders thereof from the Face of the Earth, is the Concern of every Man to whom Nature hath given the Power of feeling; of which Class, regardless of Party Censure, is the AUTHOR....
To say that the constitution of England is a UNION of three powers reciprocally CHECKING each other, is farcical, either the words have no meaning, or they are flat contradictions.
To say that the commons is a check upon the king, presupposes two things:
FIRST - That the king is not to be trusted without being looked after, or in other words, that a thirst for absolute power is the natural disease of monarchy.
SECONDLY - That the commons, by being appointed for that purpose, are either wiser or more worthy of confidence than the crown.
But as the same constitution which gives the commons a power to check the king by withholding the supplies, gives afterwards the king a power to check the commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills; it again supposes that the king is wiser than those whom it has already supposed to be wiser than him. A mere absurdity!
There is something exceedingly ridiculous in the composition of monarchy; it first excludes a man from the means of information, yet empowers him to act in cases where the highest judgment is required. The state of a king shuts him from the world, yet the business of a king requires him to know it thoroughly; wherefore the different parts, by unnaturally opposing and destroying each other, prove the whole character to be absurd and useless. (from Common Sense.)
Next, the words of Benjamin Franklin:
Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power. (from Poor Richard's Almanack, 1738.)
And this from James Madison:
Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. . . . [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and . . . degeneracy of manners and of morals. . . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. . . .[It should be well understood] that the powers proposed to be surrendered [by the Third Congress] to the Executive were those which the Constitution has most jealously appropriated to the Legislature. . . .
The Constitution expressly and exclusively vests in the Legislature the power of declaring a state of war. . . the power of raising armies. . . the power of creating offices. . . .
A delegation of such powers [to the President] would have struck, not only at the fabric of our Constitution, but at the foundation of all well organized and well checked governments.
The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted.
The separation of the power of raising armies from the power of commanding them, is intended to prevent the raising of armies for the sake of commanding them.
The separation of the power of creating offices from that of filling them, is an essential guard against the temptation to create offices for the sake of gratifying favourites or multiplying dependents. (from Letters of James Madison, 1793)
And, finally, from George Washington:
...With respect to the advice given by the Author, to suspect the Man, who shall recommend moderate measures and longer forbearance, I spurn it, as every Man, who regards liberty, and reveres that justice for which we contend, undoubtedly must; for if Men are to be precluded from offering their Sentiments on a matter, which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences, that can invite the consideration of Mankind, reason is of no use to us; the freedom of Speech may be taken away, and dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep, to the Slaughter.... (Speech to the Officers of the Army, Head Quarters, Newburgh, March 15, 1783.)
For more information, take a peek at these handy document links from the Library of Congress.
Happy Independence Day, everyone. Remember, all of those elected folks in Washington and around the country work for us -- not the other way around. It's time that everyone -- elected or commoner alike -- remembered that very important distinction. We hold these truths...
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Fitz!
Happy 4th all!
Happy Independence Day everyone — here’s hoping that yours is less dreary and rainy than ours today.
…in the words of GWB - “Screw all that, I’ll make up my own rules”
George W. Bush aint my Commander-in-Chief !
No comment? I beg to differ. I concur. Only the nod to the diety is not my cup of tea, thankfully, they made provisions for that.
Oh he’s your commander in chief alright - that’s precisly the problem.
Perhaps a little light reading on gardening would be to someone’s taste on this national holiday…As the world waits for Le Roi to speechify some pontificacation on the nation.
;>)
Happy 4th to you, CHS.
I can’t believe how many comments you’ve gotten on this site since I went to sleep last night. I tried to catch up, but I’ve got to run to the office and try to get some stuff done.
Keep up the good work FDL, all of you! You are patriots…the shrubites are scoundrels.
Christy you are doing a tremendious job today. I was getting choked up reading the post. My family came to America in the mid 1700’s to Boston and eligible to be a member of DAR (daughters of the Revolution).
There have been some chatter around how TeeVee makes the population observers to life and not participants. The line was, do you ever see anyone on TeeVee spending their time watching TeeVee? How Americans have fewer friends and less interaction with their world.
What the blogs are is a place to draw people back into interacting with their communities, creating virtural communities and connecting people. I think we are breaking the stranglehold of the TeeVee culture.
But since I have been playing around the blogs for 4-5 yrs, become involved politically, I think I have more friends than I did even 10 yrs ago. I consider many here “friends”, Thanks Teddy for your help. And many over at Kos where we have communicated both on the blog and at Yearlykos. The idea that we keep bringing in new members into our FDL family and community.
That is what the 4th means to me. Family and friends.
yay!
“The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted.
The separation of the power of raising armies from the power of commanding them, is intended to prevent the raising of armies for the sake of commanding them.
The separation of the power of creating offices from that of filling them, is an essential guard against the temptation to create offices for the sake of gratifying favourites or multiplying dependents.”
(from Letters of James Madison, 1793)
I’m going to print that out and put it on my desk at work. Thanks.
By the way, have I ever mentioned that FDL is my homepage?
*ilson46201 @ 10:53 am (#5) - The only people for whom he’s the commander in chief are people who are serving in the U.S. military. For the rest of us, he’s the guy we elected to run our country for us. When did we as a nation lose sight of that?
Those founders were some mighty smart fellows.
They’d be branded as traitors today, of course.
OT: Katymine, I was sorry to read about your rabbit. My sister has one, and it’s amazing how sociable they can be.
YKos - CIA Plame Pannel - CSPAN2 - 4:00 PM ET
The only people for whom he’s the commander in chief are people who are serving in the U.S. military. For the rest of us, he’s the guy we elected to run our country for us. When did we as a nation lose sight of that?
I’d say right around 9/12/01, when the Republicans began their systematic effort to paint Bush as a mighty, resolute leader, making all the hard decisions to keep us safe.
The founding fathers envisioned guys like Bush, Rove and Cheney. But these three smarms have found ways to get around the intent of the constitution. “Signing statements used by Bush is the way he subverts the Congress. Packing the SCOTUS and the federal courts is the way he perverts the judicial branch. And Karl Rove is the very effective instrument of choice implemented to subvert the electorate. And threats, propaganda, bribery and out right lies are used to neutralize the fourth estate. If we don’t take back Congress this year, this country may very well be lost. Work, and more work in the local arena is the best chance we have. I think.
Signing Statements anyone?
What happened to states rights?
Immigration bashing?
Perpetual War anyone?
Now wasn’t it Markos who was bashed for calling “Congractors” mercenaries?
If it quacks like a duck, then it is a mercenary!
Thank you Rep Conyers, Sen. Feingold, Kerry, Kennedy, Boxer and others who keep fighting the good fight!
Chrirty:
These quotes are what today is all about.
Thank you for blogging!
“But I’m the Decider in Chief!”
Go get’em, Christy
The founding fathers envisioned guys like Bush, Rove and Cheney.
Absolutely. That was the whole point of checks & balances. What they *didn’t* envision was that the Congress would willingly abdicate all their power to the Executive. They were counting on selfishness and hunger for power to maintain the balance; they never expected this kind of bizarre selfnessness and submission from the Legislature.
America is so much more than its politicians. It is a spirit of openness, of “nothing is impossible,” and of “anybody can become President.” (Unfortunately, a “nobody” can also become President.) ;-)
We have many to thank who came before us. But we sometimes forget just what they counseled.
Christy, your quotes are so appropriate for today that I imagine thousands of readers will be sending the URL for this posting, http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....e-truths/, around to friends throughout the country on this Independence Day.
Happy 4th of July!
I will pass on the sympathy to my girls Cujo359.
That is what a community is all about. We care about each others lives and support each other even if we tend to be a pain in the butt at times.
Those who think the term “Creator” is synonymous with “God” are in error. Jefferson and Franklin (and, I believe, Madison) were Deists. Deist is really just another word for agnostic. Deists supposed a Prime Mover, yet were unsure what force that was. “Creator” (and “Nature’s God” and “Divine Providence”) was used puposefully. Deism’s tools are rational thought and logic, not divine revelation and tradition’s superstition. To the extent there is any Supreme Being in America’s two holiest documents, it is “We the People”.
Christy: Please be careful. If the wingnuts and conservatives find out you are excerpting the Declaration of Independence, and upholding the principle of separation of powers (the president ain’t an emperor!) they will accuse you of aiding and abetting terrorism. Treasonous talk!
Or as one of the nutters might say, “What did the Founding Fathers know about fighting terrism? Thank God we have George Bush around today instead of that other George, the one with the wooden false teeth.”
Treason, indeed.
Happy 4th of July to all us immigrants (unless you are Native American).
what inspiring documents’ what a pleasure to read
I think one point needs to be repeated from thom hartnan, an ibcredible constitional scholar
if we look to the charges against the king which inspired our independence ajd we substitute this george, the parrallels are uncanny
everyone should give this excersize a go
darkblack at 8:
What a hoot!
For those who didn’t bother to click the “gardening” link that darkblack provided . . . trust me. You gotta. In particular, check out the wheelbarrow full of rockets.
Here it is in naked form:
http://static.flickr.com/47/18.....6ffeec.jpg
Looks like we’re all thinking about the same thing today:
[http://www.1boringoldman.com].
What we grew up believing was our immutable bedrock has been undermined and ignored in a systematic and malicious manner for six long years.
I guess one just keeps preaching the sermon until people who need to hear it begin to listen…
Fellow Patriots,
if nothing else, this facist, evil regime has driven my family back to ‘the beginning’ - and we have never been more appreciative of the bravery and prescience of the Founders - like many, there are days when it all seems futile - and then to read the history - the actual words of folks who were willing to sacrifice everything ya have to suck it up and keep going -
if you are a glass is half full person, you have to thank your diety or the fates for placing you here at this time - to do the very thing we were tasked by the Founders to do - fight tyranny, and uphold the cause of Liberty
Christy, thank you so much for the post - it wasn’t too presumptious to expect to see the words of the Founders here today, but I am no less choked up for having read them
OT - What would the founding fathers think of this?
Shuttle lift-off at 2:38
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/live_tv.html
ralphbon says: “Any reason to think Murray’s current source isn’t 12×6?”
July 4th, 2006 at 10:46 am (prior thread)
If his current source isn’t a current senior administration official, could his source be Andy Card?
Katymine and girls: A black rabbit came and sat beside me on my porch one day, and stayed. Ever since, I have lived with a rabbit. Rabbits are uncanny. My sympathies.
By the way, Christy, our girl just ’signed’ the Declaration and printed it out. Is carrying it around in a folder and pursuing Happiness. Thanks so much for contributing to what — should be — Self-Evident.
OT - looks like the shuttle lift-off is a go. just about minutes left in the countdown. For those interested, it’s on teevee
Great post, Christy.
While I was away in England I didn’t get a chance to get online to read the blogs. At one pound for 20 minutes and very little time, I just couldn’t. Boy, did I miss you all. and coming back I felt so out of the loop, it felt like I’d been gone a month, instead of a week.
But on Thursday as I wandered the streets around the British Museum I came across a cartoon drawing of Thomas Paine done in 1791. My first thought was to share it with all my American friends here and at dKos. Today seemed like a good day to do so.
I wrote a diary over at dKos and posted it on our new blog, The Next Agenda, for progressive Canadian politics, linked with my name. Drop by and drop some mojo on me at dKos (doesn’t last long when you’re away) or a comment or two.
If you’re Canadian you might want to sign up at our new blog!
Thank you Christy for reminding us of what we fight for.
The 4th is a day I always find difficult - have since the Vietnam War. The vision of liberty and equality is so moving yet the reality - and not simply recently - has been quite the opposite more times than not. So I tend to ignore the whole thing except to be irritated by the lack of regular news programs.
This year I live in an urban and highly quirky and diverse neighborhood and as I was getting my first FDL dose of the day, I heard sirens and popped out to the corner to watch the neighborhood parade. Like those funky parades in small towns in New England, this was a people’s celebration but with faces of every color of the human rainbow, hiphop marching bands followed by floats with little kids waving and laughing and two groups from local peace groups - much older than me and frail but feisty - and finishing with the Chitown Posse, a mostly african american crew on horseback cowboying down 53rd street with style.
These events bring tears to my eyes - perhaps the reason I normally avoid them since it is so easy to slip … into that jingoistic patriotism, the american exceptionalism, that leads to horrors. Still, to see a community of faces … and one with a political awareness and a pride if diversity mades me smile as well.
And then I return to the news and see more horrors, the fate of children like those I just watched smiling down the street, their brothers and sisters in Iraq whose lives do not include smiles - and whose sorrow is caused by our inaction and lack of power to change what our government is doing. Keep fighting, yes but also keep looking, eyes wide open at what we do and what is done in our name.
mfi has a holiday message (link is in my nick) and today in iraq
http://www.dailywarnews.blogspot.com/
has news of the fast in DC and of the demand by iraqi officials that the UN take over the investigation of the rape of Abeer Qassim Hamza and the murder of Abeer and her family by US soldiers. Abeer was 14 or 15 according to her neighbors.
The arrest warrant for her (alleged?) rapist is found here:
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/.....06cmp.html
OT - looks like the shuttle lift-off is a go. just about minutes left in the countdown. For those interested, it’s on teevee
CNN, specifically.
They better be really *really* sure that foam isn’t a problem.
Launch in 2 minutes! CNN
From previous thread, something that bothers me in the Waas article:
So whay the big rush the end of March 2003 to change the Presidential Order (or directive or whatever it was called) to allow the Vice-President to indepentently declassify information? Remember Cheney mentioning that in the Fox interview and the flurry of analysis after that? The very first article referencing an “Ambassador” was in the middle of March, was it not? I figure they had this thing “contingency” planned very early on.
Sounds to me the were doing CYA as early as March to give Bush plausible deniability of some sort, and it’s evident in the above quote. Bunch of sneaky bastards…
Any of you legal eagles see something suspicious here? Or is it just me?
“When did we as a nation lose sight of that?”
At least partly, imo,it comes from shills in the traditional media who keep referring to us as a “nation at war.”
OT, thanks so much Christy, what cbl wrote so beautifully at 11:24
Liftoff, so far so good.
Thanks Christy and Jane for the constant stream of insight to ponder daily. What a good way to expose how far off course we have strayed with the great founding documents of our nation sounding so foreign as compared to the drool from the neocon fear mongers.
The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted.
Bush may not of heard of Madison, uhhh who?
What a great example of exactly how these thugs have ignored the foundation of our country. Happy 4th!!
Correct me if i am wrong but Bush is the commander in chief if you are in the military otherwise he is still the president for the rest of us.This commander in chief BS is just a way to spin, in classic Rovinian style, the continued “war president” status that has enabled the neocon debacle known as the Bush doctrine or nightmare or …….
(insert negative word here) to flounder.
katymine @ 11:16 am (#24) Pain in the butt, moi?
The right wing wants to replace the ideas of the Constitution with a state defined by Christianity. Then the Ten Commandments would be the rule of the land…except…being Republicans, they would have to repeal one of the commandments, the one that says: Thou Shalt Not Steal.
So all public buildings will display the Nine Commandments.
who can’t read the words of the founding fathers and feel a distinct chill run up their spine at the high standards they set, not only for themselves, but for those who were to follow them - us.
Truly, giants walked the earth in those days…
How can we continue the struggle that these men of such immense strength and integrity set?
How can we measure up to the VERY high bar that they set?
How can we stand by and let all their hard work turn to ashes?
We can’t! So to the Shumers and other sycophants (and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE), from the founding fathers, a big FUCK YOU!
Time to bring out the (metaphorical?) long knives…
y’all want another parallel ?
Tory (Loyalists) population at the time was approx. 30%
found that while reading through Loyalist correspondence
one of the common themes - “Good King George is Our Protector and deserves our fealty “
solid rockets have separated, this looks like it is going OK.
Godspeed to the astronauts.
i highly reccommend that everyone rent the movie 1776 and watch it on this independence day. it is a lot of fun, the music great and the research well done. A fun way to earn your history!
It is amazing to think that a provincial backwater of 4 million people could produce men of such civic virtue and, among them, some the finest political minds of the Age of Enlightenment.
It is astounding to find the aging machinery of the Republic is still able to hem in the ambitions of nefarious men like Dick Cheney and his crony, that ideologue of kingly power David Addington, not to mention the folly of George W. Bush.
being Republicans, they would have to repeal one of the commandments, the one that says: Thou Shalt Not Steal.
And Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness…
And Thou Shalt Not Kill…
And Thou Shalt Not Covet…
And Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery…
Jeez, I’ve already named more commandments than that Ten Commandments wanker on Colbert, and I’m not even religious.
Thanks, Prof. :)
Everybody, don’t be afraid to dangle your patriotism on this Independence Day…
;>)
Shuttle takeoff is shaking my house! GODSPEED!
Unitary executive = absolute Despotism
Oh, I love that sensation — it comes rolling through the woods from the south, a beating pumbpumbpumb. Thrilling!
So, the shuttle out of the woods now, right?
I guess sometimes it’s better to be lucky than smart…
Wonder if there was pressure from Rove for the space shuttle launch today, in spite of the foam problem. Perhaps I’m just being cynical, though I wouldn’t put it past the Bush administration to push for a launch on the 4th. of July. Great p.r. Oh… Rove, Cheney and Bush would never do something so politically crass. Would they?
No Cujo359,at times it can be moi
From Paul Craig Roberts ‘The Reality Beneath the Flag Waving’.
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9236
emphasis mine
This is a question that bears examination?
What precisely is ‘american character’?
What is it made of, how is it fed, nourished etc ?
It’s an academic question I suppose, but relevant in the long term if the conditions that made possible the neo-con rise to power, are to be changed. Getting some Dem’s in the house is a start, but the problem isn’t just the ‘elected’ officials.
Christy,
thanks for including the quote from Washington’s Newburgh speech, it’s an incident so little known today, but so important in the history of this country. I’ll spare everyone the history lesson here, but here’s a link to a primer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy
Every time I read these words and the reaction by the officers present to them it moves me to tears:
Gentlemen, you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country.
Even though it probably was ’staged,’ it doesn’t matter, it worked and saved the fledgling Republic from a military coup. In graduate school I used to have this running battle with my minor field advisor (colonial American history) concerning Jefferson v. Washington, who was the greatest founder. Like many such arguments there was an artificiality to it, cuz of course they were both great Founders. So she would run down the extensive list of Jefferson’s accomplishments, then remind me (again) of all of Washington’s shortcomings and then ask, how could you prefer Washington? My answer was always the same, he was the man who could have been king, and said no.
tis a pity the current king george doesn’t read more……
Just like any aircraft flight, take off and landings are the major times to worry. Unless it hits something or something hits it, just flying around is pretty safe.
Since many of the Columbia parts rained down across Arizona & New Mexico….. during their attempt to land.
John Casper @ 11:38 am (#41) - For many years, I worked for people who used to be in the service. The career military guys often had to be reminded that things were different outside the service, that their obligation now wasn’t to follow orders, but was often to question them. Most of us in the U.S. have never served in the military, or served only briefly and were glad to get out. Why do we need reminding?
It’s certainly true that during a war the propoganda of the times emphasises the President’s war persona, and that’s probably as good an explanation as any for our current attitude. If so, then it’s remarkably sad, because it doesn’t feel like we’re in a war in many other ways.
Afternoon, folks! Can’t stay long–due at my folks for dinner in an hour or so.
Re the meaning of today–one of the cable movie channels has been running “Tora! Tora! Tora!” lately. When I see that, and consider the combination of hubris, timidity in the face of power, wishful thinking, and just plain laziness that led up to our being so wounded, I can’t help thinking of the politicians here, left and right, so full of themselves that they can’t see or don’t care about the reality in front of them–even as it eats the nation from within.
Cyber Ruffian at 60
He can read?
This is laugh out loud funny…wonder if the framers had a sense of humour…
The Court Enters the War, Loudly
…”What the court is doing is attempting to suppress creative thinking,” said Professor Yoo…
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....mp;ei=5087
Wonder if there was pressure from Rove for the space shuttle launch today, in spite of the foam problem. Perhaps I’m just being cynical, though I wouldn’t put it past the Bush administration to push for a launch on the 4th. of July. Great p.r. Oh%u2026 Rove, Cheney and Bush would never do something so politically crass. Would they?
I don’t think there’s any question. After losing two shuttles, I can’t believe they would ignore *any* issues without there being some kind of pressure from above. So now Bush can pose and posture as The Man Who Heroically Returned Us To Outer Space (Mars, bitches!).
I’m just glad it didn’t turn into a fireworks display.
Eli– I hope the astronauts are safe, last time they died on re-entry due to a foam problem. So sad.
OK kiddo– I am with you @ your 57– everyone else’s life is cheap to these usurpers.
I hope these brave people come home after accomplishing their goal and work on/in the oceans, for the planet and for humankind.
Eli%u2013 I hope the astronauts are safe, last time they died on re-entry due to a foam problem. So sad.
Me too. IIRC, the foam problem here was on the liquid fuel tank, so with that safely jettisoned, they should be okay - or at least as okay as any other shuttle flight. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
Sophist, when I read this
“This is a question that bears examination?
What precisely is ‘american character’?
What is it made of, how is it fed, nourished etc ?”
I immediately thought of the JFK quote-
Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. (not exact)
And that means holding on to the dream of a true democracy, justice for all. And doing what it takes to keep it.
Josh Marshal doesn’t knoe what to say or think about the “dust up in CT”. WTF.
Interesting article in the Nation:
Apologies if this article by Jennifer Nix has already been around the horn here.
the foam problem here was on the liquid fuel tank, so with that safely jettisoned, they should be okay
Problem is, they won’t know if they got thru the launch undamaged (when the tank was still attached) until they get a chance to look at the shuttle exterior.
To the astronauts: Vaya con dios, mihos…
Problem is, they won’t know if they got thru the launch undamaged (when the tank was still attached) until they get a chance to look at the shuttle exterior.
Gotcha. There’s a risk the tank foam could have broken loose and damaged the shuttle belly?
Eli - you are right. it appears the foam held in place. I’m sure they will be examining all the video footage they have as this will be the most photographed mission. after the main tank separated, the astronauts were to take some still close-ups of it as it fell away.
they also added a longer arm with a camera on the end to the cargo bay of the shuttle so they can remotely inspect the heat shield tiles and the rest of the shuttle’s exterior for damage. If they find anything that is a problem, they will dock with the space station and await a rescue mission (possibly from the Russians).
katymine @ 11:51 am (#61) (also Eli, lotus, zennurse) - The problems of the last shuttle disaster occured during takeoff, but weren’t noticed until after the crash. Hopefully, that’s not the case this time, but there’s plenty of reason to wonder how well things really went.
As I wrote last night, it’s a bad sign when your safety director won’t approve the launch, and bits start falling off the aircraft even before takeoff.
Let’s hope I’m just being the anti-Pollyana again.
Former astronaut on NPR says that they are taking those pictures right now.
ceo #70
At the end Josh does desect that Holy Joe may have cooked himself with this move.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....008919.php
Last time, it wasn’t the belly, it was the wing–I think that’s still the greatest fear, because it’s the most vulnerable spot.
Should have previewed. Sorry. Try that again: How to Create a Liberal Bestseller by Jennifer Nix is worth reading.
katymine–I know what you meant, but “desect??”
Wow. Early fireworks. What a time to miss all the action.
Been involved in a ‘PrOject’ to optimize the OS 9 side of this beastie.
Anyway, great quotes Christy
Just an a aside about NetNeut and Stevens’ gibbersish from previous (iwht apologies if repeats stuff.)
http://www.ipaction.org/campaigns/ipod/
http://www.tvtechnology.com/da.....hp?id=4069
This second dated June 30, Friday.
Lieberman! ugh. What is he good for? Absolutely nuttin’! Say it again, now.
As I wrote last night, it’s a bad sign when your safety director won’t approve the launch, and bits start falling off the aircraft even before takeoff.
Let’s hope I’m just being the anti-Pollyana again.
Even if everything works out fine, and I hope it does, that does not vindicate the decision. It’s not like the shuttle has proven itself robust enough that you can ignore problems and get away with it.
Even if everything works out fine, and I hope it does, that does not vindicate the decision.
Are you kiddin’? For decision-makers under a Rethug president, even if everything goes completely to shit, it doesn’t invalidate the decision…
I’ve recently spent some time at the JFK Library site and have listened to several of Kennedy’s speeches there. Of particular interest today are these two -
Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1957, which then Senator Kennedy recorded for a New York radio station.
And this one:
Address at Independence Hall, July 4, 1962, which I heard live as a 14-year-old along with about 150,000 others on Independence Mall, enduring the Philadelphia heat and humidity just to hear this man speak.
July 4th has been a conflicted day for me ever since the Vietnam war, but this year I’m flying my flag proudly because in my heart I’ve retaken this symbol of my country as my own. I began my day by listening to Kennedy’s recording of the Declaration of Independence and felt that, perhaps, the progressive community will make a difference this year in reining in the reign of King George Bush.
230 years later, I’d love to see Christy’s excellent post printed up and distributed to every person in our government (a Roots project?). It would also make a great petition for us “commons” to sign and present to George Bush, the man who thinks he is a king, and his Rubber-Stamping Republican government. The “unitary executive” is nothing but a king in an undemocratic monarchy.
The rallying cry in 1776 was “George is not my king”. I’ve used that slogan as my sign at protests, with “NOT in 1776 and NOT now” added. On the otherside is Picasso’s “Guernica”, representing all the death, destruction, and corruption of this present government.
Can FDL initiate such a petition?
Are you kiddin’? For decision-makers under a Rethug president, even if everything goes completely to shit, it doesn’t invalidate the decision…
Sad but true. I was speaking of reality and the world of rational people, however. But yes, within the Republican, ah, orbit, even if it blew up like a supernova on the launchpad and wiped out everyone within a 1-mile radius, they would *still* say that it was the right decision, that America needed something positive and inspiring on the 4th, and everyone understands that life has risks…
I agree Cujo359, the stress of take off put the shuttle in a situation that would not sustain the stress of landing.
It is the chicken and the egg line. If the stress of take off had not caused XXX which lead to the brake up or would the stress of landing make the break up eventual due to poor design?
OT - on North Korea missile threat…. I am following the money and defense contractors…. BushCo has tried to push Star Wars but shot down when he has this “non-traditional” war on Taaarrraaa but if there is a country out there threatening to shoot missiles into the blue states on the left coast, then they have a reason to put more bucks into the big black hole of defense spending on that boondogle.
Thanks to ET, sharkbabe, and littledog on the previous thread re: Sousa’s Stars and Stripes Forever, I now can’t get “be kind to your web footed friends” out of my mind. For a really elegant July 4th meditation on the role of “creative” (i.e. Yoo style) lawyering in this or any Administration, I recommend Marty Lederer at Balkinization. Marty was in the Office of Legal Counsel until 2002.
http://balkin.blogspot.com/
Finally, while I would happily watch 1776 again, my favorite 4th of July movie is still Independence Day. Of course, it’s science fiction. We all know that a President would never actually suit up and do some of the fighting himself. Or listen to a scientist. Or fire the Secretary of Defense. It’s fun to make believe, though.
Forgive me for reposting this from last night but I think it has more relevence to the current thread.
Have you ever heard of a patriotic mutiny? Well one happened in New Jersey in 1781. After enduring long years of warfare with inadequate food, clothing or shelter and sporadic pay, the Pennsylvania Line mutinied and intended to march to Philadelphia to present their greivances to the Continental Congress. On the way, they were approached by two British agents who, who offered them back pay in hard cash if they would desert to the enemy. However the mutineers arrested the British agents and turned them over to their erstwhile commanders.
I think raises some interesting points about the concept of patriotism. You can read more here.
Me too, BarbaraB– love that movie! Race relations were oh so cool in that movie too– finally giving credit where credit is due to the many unwilling and willing immigrants to our country.
On this day when we remember the Founding Fathers, it occurred to me that if there was a patron saint of blogging, that would be Benjamin Franklin.
He had his own press, and has his own publications, the Philadelphia Gazette and Poor Richard’s Almanac, and he believed in freedom of the press. Were he alive he would be one of the super bloggers.
Oh, he was also into electricity. Making electrons move would have excited him.
OfT: Here’s an order from Markos. Go to this msnbc story about Alec Station being disbanded Alec Station is the CIA unit set up to hunt down Osama.
Read the article and then — per Markos’s orders — uprate it at the bottom of the page. That’ll push it in front of more eyeballs — only 4 people have rated the article so far. Americans need to know that Bush’s “dead or alive” is now “never mind, nothing to see here, move along people.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13699308/
Miss not having spell check !
I meant Dissect - Captain Goto
Teddy - here is the rating:
Happy Fourth of July all, and I’d like to remind Lieberman, Schumer, and any other Democrat of their ilk that they rule with the consent of the people.
Christy, I’ve been shopping, prepping food, etc., along with watching the shuttle go, since this thread’s been up, but now that I’ve had time to catch up on it, I too want to thank you — not just for this eloquence and today’s work, but for Jane’s and your every effort in bringing FDL to us. You may — but then again, you may not — grasp all that it means and for whom (nor may I), but I’ll just say that this community has saved my sanity and quite possibly my life.
Thank you.
Teddy! One diary and you’re already taking orders! wow, that Markos works fast!
of course, I always follows the kingpin’s orders so I voted just now - twice in fact.
Bill Nelson is on CNN looking all former astronaut and down to earth but articulate and knowledgeable and stuff. Katherine Harris must be tearing her oversprayed teased hair out.
orangejumpsuit @ 12:14 pm (#91) - What’s more, Franklin could be considered a founder of the American press thanks to all the printing presses he sold or gave to former employees and others who wanted to start newspapers in their towns.
I hate to throw water on our fireworks of patriotic sentiment, but one thing about that Declaration of Independence is that as a legal document having any real political meaning, it has been null and void since at least the close of the Civil War. “When in the Course of human events” South Carolina and the other Southern States tried to declare their independence from the Union on the basis of it, they and that document were ground into dust by a bloody destructive war of suppression and occupation. And the Civil War wasn’t fought over slavery (in fact Maryland, a slave State, fought with the Union against the Confederacy) but over whether the Declaration of Independence would have any current political meaning–in fact, the suppression of the Confederacy’s Independence by the Civil War effectively ditched the original Declaration as having any continued political relevance except as an artifact of early U.S. history, i.e., it was one shot deal with the Colonies and England and nobody can ever declare their Independence from the United States ever again, for whatever reasons, or face annihilation by occupying armies, etc., per the *precedent* of the Civil War. Some Independence Day, don’t ya think?