
[Today in the FDL Book Salon, we are so thrilled to be discussing F.U.B.A.R. : America's Right-Wing Nightmare by Sam Seder and Stephen Sherrill. Joining in the discussion today is their pal, Marc Maron, who really needs no introduction because you likely remember him from his Air America work...you do, don't you? As always, please keep discussion on the Book Salon thread confined to talking about the book and the issues raised therein -- you may continue other discussions in the previous thread. Anyway, welcome to Marc...let the serious discussion begin. --CHS]
So the country is Fucked Up — according to Sam and Stephen, "beyond all recognition." Sam tells me that he knows the actual acronym is "beyond all repair," but that Sam is "an optimist and still thinks it can be repaired.
He doesn’t sound so optimistic here, but I still agree with him:
This is a different kind of fucked up. It’s the Rapture Right Paradox: to whatever extent you realize Bush and the Rapture Right have fucked America up, it’s always worse. And however ever worse you think it is, it’s worser.
FUBAR isn’t just another Bush bashing book. It focuses on a particular strain of Republicanism — the far-right Christian strain of Republicans or as I like to call them, the Christo-Fascist-Zombie-Brigade. But the authors also make a good case that this is no longer just a strain of the Republican Party, it is the Republican Party:
…We use the terms "Bush," "republicans," and "rapture right" interchangeably. What was once the fringe—the embarrassing cousin they saw only when they had to (special occasions, especially the ones held every four years in November)—has now become the heart of the Republican Party. They’ve finally got the real power, and, like Bush with the phantom "political capital" he claimed to have earned after the 2004 election, they intend to use it.
And if you don’t believe them, after that are two hundred pages of evidence of how they’re already using it. Here’s a quote they have from George Grant, former executive director of Coral Ridge Ministries:
Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ—to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion that we are after. not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. and we must never settle for anything less. If Jesus Christ is indeed lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to his lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our steward- ship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose. Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land—of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ.
And even if you’re a liberal, even if you follow politics, even if you happen to host a liberal political radio show on an ailing liberal radio network, a lot of what Sam and Stephen dig up will surprise you.
This is the shit that the Christo-Fascist-Zombie-Brigade are doing under the radar, on the state level, organized through their underground railroad network of gigantic fanatical churches, the zombie factories. Things like:
– Abstinence-only "sex ed" programs, which Sam and Stephen call the "Oral and Anal Sex Enhancement Initiative."
– The Creation Museum being built in Cincinnati for $25 million dollars, which claims that the earth is only 4000 years old and that humans and dinosaurs were around at the same time — how do they know this? Because there’s a dragon on the flag of Wales.
– How the "intelligent design" advocates now use the language of the enlightenment (we just want "both sides debated," have an "open mind,") to attack evolution. Choice quote here? "If you can cause enough doubt on evolution, liberalism will die.’" So says Terry Fox, pastor of the largest Baptist church in the Midwest.
– The Republican battle against the battle against mercury in your water, right called here "The Republican Neurological Disorder Promotion Act of 2005."
The authors helpfully include a list of "fun things to do with neurological damage." ("Unofficially ‘patrol’ the Mexican border…Hang out socially with Robert Novak.")
As you might guess with Sam and Stephen, the book is also funny. As you might not guess, Sam stole a significant part of his comic "take" from me years ago, and still won’t admit it. I’d discuss it more here, but am unable to, due to pending litigation that Sam could have drawn up himself had he not dropped out of law school.
There’s the speech FDR would have given after Pearl Harbor, had he been a bit more like Bush (a comparison the Bush people have tried to make in several speeches). There’s a career counseling quiz for senior citizens, in case the GOP succeeds in killing Social Security, which they’re reportedly going to try to do again next year. There’s Rick Santorum’s sex advice column ("The Secretary of Love").
And then there’s a lengthy examination of the weird phenomenon of gay Republicans, in which the authors make a convincing case that all homophobes are gay — yeah, of course, we all sort of know that, but, turns out, there’s a real study. Sam tells me that Michael Medved asked him on the book tour if Sam and Stephen were "partners…outside of the book." Yeah, why would someone give a shit about homophobia if they’re not gay? (Though in Medved’s defense, that author photo ain’t helping any. Michael probably just looking for a context to put the photos in for his own use later in his mind and hand.)
People often ask if it’s hard to satire the Bush administration, given that most of their rationalizations sound so insane already. That is, of course, true, and what’s great about FUBAR is that a lot of the humor seems out there at first, but then you realize that what their doing is just taking the internal logic of the Bush administration one step further. Which is why everyone should read FUBAR — sure we all have scandal fatigue (it’s the genius of the Bush administration — they fuck things up so much, you can’t focus on any one thing), but a lot of what seems funny now, won’t seem so funny when it actually comes true. And the more light we shine on them, the less likely that will be to happen.
Oh, and, also, there’s the phone calls. One of Sam’s bits on the show (that he didn’t steal from me) is where he calls right-wing lunatics (as the "family reporter" of The Majority Report) and calmly asks them about what they’re doing, like the guy who claims that "Shark Tale" is a secret gay conversion movie. You can listen here. It’s funny, but not to the millions of people that take this stuff seriously. Which is why we should, too.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Senator Byron Dorgan, Reckless!: How Debt, Deregulation and Black Money Nearly Bankrupted America
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Robert Wright: The Evolution of God
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Adam Gopnik – Angels and Ages: A Short Book About Darwin, Lincoln, and Modern Life
- FDL Book Salon Discusses “The Test Of Our Times” With Gov. Tom Ridge
- FDL Book Salon: Idiot America with Charles Pierce





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As always, folks, please keep comments on the subject of the book discussion — FUBAR today. Thanks!
I’m re-reading the book now. There’s actually more funny in it than I thought originally.
Marc — my first read of it was on a plane, and I know that everyone seated around me thought I was completely insane because I kept breaking out into these enormous, loud giggles. But I’m sure I sold several books on the flight, because people kept asking me what I was reading.
And truly, the phone call about Shark Tale is one of the funniest moments ever. The fact that the man had no idea that Sam was not remotely serious — and that he even considered the possibility of Herbie the Dentist Elf and Rudolph as a meant-to-be-implied couple cracks me up.
Welcome, Marc! I’d like to suggest to Sam and Stephen that these days, FUBAR is more likely to stand for “Fucked Up By A Republican.”
Christy #4 –
Agreed. I like how Sam was able to end-around the guy about “imposing one’s beliefs,” etc.
Really put the point across that these people are pushing exactly what they are condeming, just in different packaging.
The amazing thing is that there is such imprtant information in the book. I get hung up on the stats and the horror and S and S jsut under cut with the humor. The Karen Hughes stuff kill me.
the recording itself is awesome. the guy had no idea he hung himself
%u2013 Abstinence-only “sex ed” programs, which Sam and Stephen call the “Oral and Anal Sex Enhancement Initiative.”
You say this like it’s a bad thing.
I love this book,it’s hysterical.My copy has coffee stains,do NOT eat or drink while you read this one,lol.
Hi Marc!!!
Marc at 7 — we like to say that Karen Hughes big foots her way around the diplomacy arena. *g* That Middle East listening tour that she did was just a disaster…and the way that Sam and Stephen point out her ineptness is so spot on in its factual information — and its mocking — that it is just a thing of beauty.
Marc,
Miss you SO MUCH in the mornings! Rapture Watch was one of my favorites, a subject that Sam begins to touch on, but that you two kept going on a weekly basis.
Hi Mark,
‘Welcome to FDL. I just happened to catch Left of the Dial last night and mourned anew the fact I don’t get to hear you anymore.
I was so happy to read Sam go after Dreier for, well, being such a dick. No one here in his district will even mention his , ahem, living arrangement in print, the LA Weekly being the only exception so far.
And I especially love Sam’s interview style. He asks the perfect questions in his deadpan voice and gets them to open up like no one else does. Shark Tale is perfect!
I love that S and S made the connection that absitinence only really encourages more “abnormal” sex among teens. i guess the number of kids they are able to scare is worth the number they might “corrupt”
Angry Broad at 10 — I know! It should come with a beverage warning label…
Left of the Dial was so flattering in its depiction of me.
mommybrain,
Marc is on at night in LA. You might be able to get him there.
I knew I guy who dated a catholic woman who would only have anal sex to maintain her virginity. Amazing.
Actually, Marc, it was. It made me fall in love with you.
Hi all. The Hughes stuff wasn’t actually meant to be such a big chapter, just a part of one about cronyism, but the more we read about her “listening tour,” with all the bizarre stuff about “being a mommy,” the section just got bigger.
The Shark Tale phone call belongs in a museum,classic.
I couldn’t pull off doing that stuff without falling to pieces giggling.
Very few of the teens I knew at the time could see anything wrong with Clinton getting a BJ. That’s no sex, say they.
weeknights 10-12 KTLK. Thought, it seems that might be on its way out. I has Sam on last week and played the part of Dreier in his presentation.
Stephen #20
That part was bizarre. I guess that’s just more evidence of the right-wing’s simplistic brain functions.
“I’m a mom, they are moms… this can work…”
True story. We had an exchange student living with us last year — and she attended a Catholic high school and played on their basketball team. My husband went to a game one evening and, sitting in the stands, three girls sitting a couple of rows behind him were having this incredibly graphic discussion about what sexual things they COULD do with their boyfriends and still say they hadn’t had “sex.” He’s not a prude by any means, but he was so thoroughly embarrassed. If they think it has any effect on making kids not fool around at all they are only fooling themselves.
Re: Dreier, in the FAQ about being a gay GOP congressman, we have a joke about Dreier being a “pussy hound.” It’s included in the presentation we do in our readings, and the one we did in LA was one of the few places where people got the joke.
Also, there was quite a bit of legal wrangling about what we could and could not say about Dreier, since he’s still closeted.
Matt O @ 2:15
I think that’s called being socially retarded.
Stephen Sherrill @ 20,
Hughes is just another example of the diplomatic tin ear this Administration possesses. Cultural deafness. Look at the way Bush manhandles Asian dignitaries, for example. No concept of personal space.
Speaking as one with a degree in Anthropology, I cringe whenever I see him interact with someone who isn’t from Crawford.
i asked a rabbi once why followers has to adhere to prophesy. Is seems that if the prophecy were horrible that people would want to avoid it and do everything they can to change the course. He seemed to imply that they could but not forever. The idea of belief clouding fact and that the real battle is between rational people and delusion christo-zombies is dealt with well in the book.
manhandles? He got to go to Graceland.
FDL is sick of me saying this, but Dreier is a sick bastard. The day before the primary, there was a pushpoll that had his fingerprints all over it asking insulting questions about his strongest Dem. opponent, questions like “If you knew Russ Warner’s son had committed atrocities in Iraq, would you still vote for him?” I hope he and whoever that singer was lo those many years ago get papparazied (oh, bad sp) in a public restroom at Will Rogers State Beach.
Stephen — how much pushback have you guys gotten from the “Christian right” about the book? Anything coordinated that you’ve seen, or just the occasional nutball letter? You guys hit them quite hard with factual information and real quotes — something I’d like to see more of the corporate media do every time they have one of the political shill “preachers” on for an interview…
Marc @ 30,
Koizumi is a strange bird. I was thinking more along the lines of the visit by the Chinese.
Of course, this could all just be Bush’s latent homosexuality bubbling to the surface.
Oh, and since I just recently graduated from college, the chapter on picking the right job for you really helped. I’m minimum wage-bound. Thanks guys!
I found the “how to win friends and convert republicans section” pretty helpful actually. I usually end up yelling and becoming the demonic liberal the expect.
…and I say this as the granddaughter of a Methodist minister, so I don’t think that church is the problem. In case anyone is wondering…
Marc at 35 — that is quite difficult. It’s hard not to grab them by the shoulders and shake them, yelling “wake the fuck up, and stop being a sheeple.”
Stephen. aren’t we all just outsourced Chinese labor at this point?
Re: Anal Sex virginity thing
It’s not as uncommon as you think. Years ago, back in the Age of Clinton when everyone was happy and investing in tech stocks – I found myself in Italy in the company of three beautiful young women.
Having an after-dinner conversation, they all told me that anal sex had become a common sexual practice in Italy during the rule of the Popes – you could have some fun, not get pregnant, and marry as a virgin!
At the time it struk me as a very elegant solution to a very stupid problem. The Italians fixed the problem itself around 1860.
How long do you think it’ll take us to do the same?
Re: FUBAR – haven’t read it, am going to get a copy this week.
No, the Mega-Church is the problem. Zombie factories.
Marc 23
Oh no! Please don’t say it’s on it’s way out. I podcast the show every day and, in the interests of time, think I can fast forward through the boring bits.
Then I never ff at all. :)
Please, please don’t go away.
Oh, and I downloaded FUBAR (unfortunately it was only available abridged) from Audible.com and loved it! Made a depressing subject fun to read about.
Marc #35 –
I hear ya. Most of my family and their friends are conservatives. Needless to say, I go home twice a year.
One of the biggest problems with debating wingers is that they don’t believe anything that isn’t stamped “FNC approved.” That chapter sure lends a helping hand on subverting that defense.
Matt O. re minimum wage, only if that’s what they pay you while you are writing your book.
You have started your book…right?
%u2013 Abstinence-only “sex ed” programs, which Sam and Stephen call the “Oral and Anal Sex Enhancement Initiative.”
Thank YOU Jeebus ….8-)
Marc Maron ….. Funny MF’er
8-)
I should’ve went to Italy in college. Damn.
22 Mommybrain says:
July 2nd, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Very few of the teens I knew at the time could see anything wrong with Clinton getting a BJ. That’s no sex, say they.
I recall a poll that showed young folks attitude about oral sex changed by the early 90s, well before Monica.
I expect Ana Marie Cox to join this thread at any moment.
Marc at 40 — it constantly amazes me that people who attend the mega-churches, many of whom have little to rub together in their wallet, don’t scratch their heads and wonder “How come the minister and the deacons all live in mansions and driver beemers?”
Christy, we haven’t gotten as much pushback as we’d like. Sam got some crazy calls on Medved (one guy suggested that if Sam I hate Bush so much, why don’t we assasinate him — he also, I should say, prefaced his call with, “I’m not insane…”), but we’d like to get more pushback.
Stephen –
Don’t forget the direct correlation between FUBAR and the rise in adult diapers.
Are there going to be any more F*U*B*A*R tour dates, outside of New York?
Stephen — I’m surprised. I would have thought that the Brent Bozell zombies would be sending you guys mail.
WT 28
He’s NOT from Crawford. He’s from prep schools and secret fraternities.
He would be just as patronizing to an actual person from Crawford.
I was yelling at a conservative the other night on stage at show. I think he was talking about moral relativism in asking me what I thought about polygamy to make a point about how people against gay marriage make their decisions. When i brought up the mega church mind meld he said that Martin Luther King used a church as his platform. i said he was tryig to guaranty civil rights the other is trying to take them away but he was unable to make a distinction between the uses of the church. One as fascist facilitator, the other as righteous communtiy organizing apparatus.
Marc (@38). yeah, no shit. just read this in the Times yesterday:
“The Bush-era deficits are also alarming in the extent to which they are foreign financed. Since 2001, 73 percent of new government borrowing has been from abroad. In total, 43 percent of the United States’ publicly held debt of $4.8 trillion is in foreign hands, compared with only 14 percent at the peak of the Reagan deficits in 1983…”
A Rick Santorum sex advice column.
Sponsored by Petco?
Stephen, have you recieved and right wing flack?
Marc — when you talk about the mega-church zombie factories, have you had to deal with a lot of that in call-ins with your show as well? Have either you or Stephen found any good ways to counteract that sort of mindless follower mind-set? I’ve always found it fun to confound them with scripture that says the exact opposite of what they believe…
How sweet is it to watch Santorum sink! Man, a thing of beauty.
Christy @ 32 & 36
On behalf of political non-shill preachers everywhere, thank you for the clarification.
;)
Cat chew: we’re going to be at The Strand on July 17th, and probalby also one more date, doing a live broadcast in conjunction with The Tank and Drinking Liberally.
And Christy, I think the problem is that we’re just not on their radar yet.
second what peterr says.
Marc #54
Those unfounded claims of a correlation between gay marriage and polygamy, or gay marriage and people wanting to marry their pets, are so asinine and ridiculous.
To start with, a pet cannot sign a marriage license.
Plus, how does opening the door to two people blow the roof off of it for people to marry in groups?
Fact is, it doesn’t. It is just bigotry rooted in misguided belief.
I’m wondering if the book has gotten the approval of either Richard Cohen or Lee Siegel. Because otherwise how will we know if its genuinely funny?
Marc, we’re trying to get some right wing flack, but not really yet. I guess the NY Times is too much of a threat to national security to divert the right’s focus right now. As soon as they take care of the the Styles section and the Escapes, they’ll get around to us.
Christy
Again, I end up yelling a representing the Satan they think we are. I’m trying to get more cutting with my arguments. Even when you hit them with some truth the get that smug you’re-going-to-hell-face and that tone of faux forgiveness. i have no patience for it or for Dems that think we need to pander to them
I love you Marc!
I have a dear friend who’s a minion of the megachurch, and she’s totally in thrall. Her family is fairly poor, the church helped she and her husband kick the meth, and she has no idea what’s in the bible. The church has helped her financially a lot. You can’t counteract that kind of devotion or crutch, without something to offer instead.
I hate when the right wing machine doesn’t give us the negative attention we deserve. Don’t they know we’re trying to make a living?
From my experience and conversations with graden-variety Rapture Righties (not the leaders, but the followers), their radios only dial in to Paul Harvey, James Dobson, and similar local radio icons. The only music on the radio is the RR version of “Christian.” They may be aware of the existence of Air America, but their radios would melt before they actually received signals from AA stations.
Dr Nobody: I think Siegal withheld his endorsement because he saw Sam wearing a baseball cap indoors. I told Sam he shouldn’t do it, but we wouldn’t listen.
O’reilly’s suit against Al Franken taught them they’ll do better by ignoring our side.
I’d rather spend and hour with a Tweeker over a Christian any day. I hope she stays of the crank and gets off the Christ as well. Tough deal.
It’s always the ones who scream loudest about family values and morality who don’t have any.
I mean, “one of those” Christains. Gotta make distinctions these days.
Funny, too, she’ll watch American Idol, but won’t go near Harry Potter! Strange values, that one.
Sorry about my crappy typing.
American Idol. A true sign of the end!
Marc –
I guess for me, I see how religion saves some people from themselves. It is when people turn around and start thumping you with the Bible that I get upset about it.
Marc, on the mega church thing, one thing that I think makes them different is how they provide every possible thing for your life: recreation, vacations, babysitting, fitness centers. I grew up in a very religious household (father was a southern baptist minister), but church was just for religious service and the odd social thing. With the megachurches, they create such a physical/lifestyle bubble around the congregation that getting their beliefs to be more bubble-like and cut off from the rest of society isn’t that hard.
Stephen — how did you guys find out about all the Hughes crapola. That was truly some of the funniest, most idiotic shit that I have read in ages. I had heard some of it in news stories, but most of what you guys found had to come from international reporting — American media didn’t cover the stupidity of the listening tour nearly enough.
Marc 74
Glad you made that distinction.
I think you’d probably enjoy spending some time with RevDeb or Peterr.
The woman is a dear friend because she walks like a Christian, unlike many who talk like one, and do the opposite. And whatever helps her stay clean, I guess is good.
In these Christo-Fascist times …. Love cost’s Money.
Came to give some love to Sam Seder and Stephen Sherrill and their book FUBAR …..
You guys did great …..
Also while I’m here …. Marc Maron ….. you are a comic genius ….
Ok when do I get my check?
Just kidding about the check …..all you guys are great and thanks for being on AAR.
See ya later
8-)
When complete mediocrity maligns the culture and all applaud and support it as it represents their own dreams of mimicry and shallowness.
iamcoyote @ 67
Your last line is critical in this whole discussion: “without something to offer instead.”
When you are talking about someone’s belief system – be it political beliefs, religious beliefs, or beliefs about the relative worth of European vs. South American soccer styles – simply tearing down will not do much. Mostly it will simply engage someone’s “martyr complex,” and reinforce whatever positions they already hold. If, on the other hand, the tearing down is accompanied by an alternative vision, then you can get somewhere.
Stephen #79 – exactly. Everything is available and safe within the church.
Stephen –
Yes, I have seen this with my own eyes. They travel in herds, do everything together, go to lunches and dinners together almost every day. Kind of cultish…
Christy, the Hughes stuff we mostly found on the internet, but it was also mostly European accounts. The British press covered her much more than ours. It’s amazing the trip wasn’t more widely covered.
I get it about the mega church land of the dead community idea but still the biggest threat, and I think that the book does it justice, is the paradigm shift from fact based to myth based and that it can happen in this culture because people are that detached from realy thinking about the threat or caring. And the zombies are tenacious, ambitious and organized.
Matt O. @78,
agreed. You do whatever it is that you need to do to get through the day. Just don’t assume that everyone wants to live that way.
I hail from a family of lapsed Reconstructionist Jews. Can I interest you in a bacon cheeseburger?
The few bits I remember being covered on the Hughes trip were on the Daily Show, you know that one that’s going to ruin young people’s desire to vote?
The United States as we know it is over. What the crackpot right hasn’t already screwed up is probably on life support because we as a country are so broke and in the hole nothing can fix it. I’m planning on becoming an ex-pat and stop worrying about it. If the southern Jesus freak drooling class is so goddamn dumb as to believe in the “rapture”, then what’s the use. I wonder how many Europeans believe in this horseshit?
Belief is a tough nut to crack with out providing the equivalent of a white light experience that will laser cut through bad beliefs and then you have to deal with an individual who’s belief has been shattered or broken and you better have something or someplace to held them fill that hole.
Christy,
The Christian right see themselves as victims. Deep down inside they know how crazy they sound and want everyone to acknowledge their religion so those other voices will stop.
Other questions to ask MegaChurchers – Is your faith so weak that you need approval from the State? Others?
You want the Bible to be taught in school? Why don’t you take personal responsibility for the religious education of your children?
(From Confessions of a Dittohead, also in my stack, on top of FUBAR, from YK)
Stephen at 79 — you know, I hadn’t thought of it quite in that way, but that is absolutely true. I attended a mom’s group that was held in a local megachurch for a while…but it became all about recruiting new members for the church, and not so much about mom’s hanging out and swapping parenting tips and such. It was such an all-encompassing atmosphere. Interesting to think of it as a bubble — but that was absolutely the feeling that I had with it. Explains a lot.
Hey Matt O. –
I was going to send you something about the Young Democrats hiring — but the link is broken.
The Democratic Party — so incompetent in the zombie factory business, we can’t even sign up people who already agree with us!
And the Hughes trip was strangely similar to the one we researched a lot, but didn’t put much of into the book — that of Roy Cohn with his boyfriend G. David Schine. They toured Europe (first class) during thte HUAC hearings, ostensibly to find out if American embassy libraries had any “communist literature” on their shelves. But the press really followed the trip, which was a fiasco, and it was the beginning of the end of McCarthy. Too bad Hughes didn’t get the same treatment.
Marc #89 –
Agreed. Organized versus apathetic and the uninformed.
Stephen #88 –
Gee… I wonder why. Probably because it was a total embarrassment.
Marc, 89
It’s almost as if the zombies are using 1984 as their playbook.
Ernest Becker in The Denial of Death sees belief as being almost innate and necessary. I guess it’s which ones you choose. I choose to believe I will still be a success in show business someday. Crazy. Where do I find this Jesus fellow?
Can I make a biblical point?
I’ve used in in arguments against dominionists.
The awarding of dominion over the Earth was made BEFORE the Fall and the expulsion from Eden.
After that, it was ‘ In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.’
So all that crap about Dominion was only true for the Garden of Eden, before we fucked up. Now it’s ‘you’re just a monkey like everybody else.’
Re Karen Hughes and the news coverage -
Since my main schtick is photocaptioning, there was plenty of material of her clutching bewildered Muslim children to her bosom in a show of universal maternal love
It doesn’t help that she bears such a striking resemblance to Patrick Swayze.
ck — #96
I heard about Young Democrats employment via DemocraticGAIN. A great site, by the way.
I hail from a family of lapsed Reconstructionist Jews. Can I interest you in a bacon cheeseburger?
Only if it’s a kosher bacon cheeseburger . . .
Stephen, Matt O.
I had a wise seminary friend who shared with me the sage advice that every member of the clergy needs to find some good pagan friends. “You don’t want to make friends with them to convert them – you need them to stay the hell away from your church.” He meant that such non-church friends can keep you grounded, keep you from being too insular, and keep you honest in your language and your claims.
The quote in FUBAR from that Rove aid around the SS thing is awesome. The Neo Con Death Cult are using Goebbels handbook as they’re guide and the Christo Fascist Zombie Brigade us 1984
Watertiger at 102 — agreed, most of the images from any coverage of her did show freaked out Muslim children trying to politely squirm away from the Sasquatch that had grabbed them. (And, omg, you made me spew tea with the Patrick Swayze reference. It is freakishly true…)
Christy – 95: yeah, it’s very cult-like. Any possible reason you might need to interact with the “secular world,” the megachurch will provide for you. It’s like a closed pond. Or a cult. They’re very good at it. And once your entire life revolves around the church, you can become untethered to what they call “secularism” quite easily.
OK, I hadn’t planned on picking up FUBAR but your opening description of the book has changed my mind (just placed an Amazon order).
Marc, what’s up with syndication? We keep waiting … (the new show is fantastic, btw, better than MS. But more Patton please)
Speaking of mass right-wing community…read about Cheney at the Pepsi 400…politically, it’s such a lay-up for them.
Fly in on AF2, drive motorcade around track, wave flag, leave. Gigantic exposure in a friendly setting, with very little effort.
The left doesn’t have that kind of venue anymore…
ck @ 104- popcorn shrimp on the side?
Stephen, do you address the impending downfall of Ralph Reed at all in the book?
Triskele #109
I two-day ordered it via Amazon back in March.
I don’t think it’s “pandering” to talk with evangelicals about our differences, given that the nation is in crisis.
Like CHS I also try to come up with something from the Bible that makes them look at the situation a different way.
My overall tone in such conversations is mutual respect, even though we have different perspectives. Not sure that raising the volume would get the point across any more effectively.
Marc, I agree about the most dangerous thing being the move from fact to myth. We found this quote from Gertrude Himmelfarb, Bill Kristols’ mom (and one who wouldn’t be caught dead hanging out with intelligent design advocates, but she realizes the value (to the neo cons) of the relentless assault on reason by the ID people:
“Today we have even more cause to be concerned about the mechanistic and reductionistic interpretation of all human life, including its emotional and intellectual dimensions, in the name of Darwinism. This is more than science. It is scientism…”
Bumper Sticker –
Jesus Was A Liberal
exploding heads, anyone?
Back in the day, a friend said the Christian Right are neither — they are not Christian, and they are not right.
And they are lousy tippers, btw . . .
triskele at 109 — it’s a fantastic read. But word to the wise, don’t have liquids in your mouth as you read it or you’ll be sorry. It’s a laugh out loud kinda book.
Triskele-
I’m mulling over some choice I have been given about my future with AAR as if last Thursday. I’ll talk about it on the show on Weds. I think I may need ot ask Christ for help. Satan has been good up to now but this may require the Jesus. Thanks for listening.
Watertiger, we didn’t make it Ralph Reed, mostly because his case was so in the day-to-day news, it was hard to do with the lead-time of a book.
Marc the Sharc!!
Marc the Sharc!!
Marc the Sharc!! Sharc Attac!!
ck 115
was wearing that t-shirt working in the garden today. I’m on a dead end street so not much exposure.
It is awesome in an evil way how profecient this right wing shit machine has become at hypnotizing and re wiring the way people percieve reality. I wich there was a single device we could employ to throw a wrench in it as opposed to hard work and focus. I want a magic solution.
Marc…MISS YOU…it is not the same drinking my morning latte without Sammy the stem cell!
GREAT BOOK Stephen, and as Christy pointed out, have nothing in your mouth while reading is is a BIG laugh out loud read!
Josh at 110 — welcome! And you have to wonder how much it cost the American taxpayers for that victory lap for Cheney, don’t you?
Marc #121
May I suggest Jesus, and the power of prayer? ;)
And, Marc, another thing about the myth-based thing: on tour, a comment we get from some liberals is that, hey, bush is down right now, the intelligent design people lost in Dover, and in Kansas, so why be worried. But, and this fits in with the myth thing, the fanatics know it’s not necessarily about *winning* things like the ID debate outright, it’s all about the sowing of doubt, obfuscating, clouding up reason. If they do that, they’ll get a lot more than a few curricula changes.
This is why they use pretend to advocate for “open mindedness” and “having a debate” now. And why the media notion of “balance” is so dangerous.
In day to day talking with regular people you begin to understand how the facts we try to give them aren’t all that pretty: Your president’s an evil moron; your military is being dismantled and picked off one by one in Iraq; your economy is this close to collapse. I can understand the draw that a nice shiny myth with happy faces will have on people outside my political geekdom. Who wants to hear the world is on the brink of doom?
Stephen,
Yeah, I kinda figgered. It’ll be interesting to see if he has his Jimmy Swaggart moment, should he eventually be indicted.
Peterr @ 69 — Did you know that Paul Harvey is pro choice? I heard him do an editorial about it several years ago, and I just about crashed my car. I forgot all about it till I read your post linking him with Dobson.
Marc -
Don’t do it for less than 7.6 million dollars…and the ability to personally fire any one executive over the next year.
watertiger –
Are shrimp one of those kinds of foods, too?
A friend from high school (who’s father was an Auschwitz survivor) and I were having dinner at a restaurant. He had a ham hock, and I asked if it was kosher — he didn’t know. Apparently, they were not an observant family . . .
El Cid-
What are you lefty baby killing whiners going on about in this socialist terror cell of a chat room. I’ll tell you what’s FUBAR the idea the you whack jobs are doing anything here but helping the Bin Laden.
There is no magical solution, but Terri Schiavo started a tipping point that is continuing to this day. Even many of the wingnuts saw how bat sh*t crazy Frist & co. were.
MO is doing some interesting things around a ballot measure on stem cell research. Give them a wedgie back.
Christy#123…I just read for fuel alone it is 83,000 dollars, because of the weight of the plane consisting of all the extra equipment.
I will try to find the link.
watertiger: yeah, Reed is a fascinating figure. Kind of reminds me of a straight version of Roy Cohn. His story clearly has a lot of twists and turns left, and could be one of those things where you can tell the story of an entire movement through one man.
That’s why Daily Show is so dangerous, it tells the truth and makes you laugh. Liberal comedy is the devil’s tool!
Christy,
Don’t forget the personalized NASCAR jacket, with “Vice President of the United States Dick Cheney” embroidered on it.
And he brought the granddaughters along, just to show that even though he’s at 18% in the polls, somebody still likes him.
josh
Okay, writing that down.
Hey Stephen, who said Reed was straight?
Christy 123 – It’s just bread and circuses.
What really baffles me is that those NASCAR fans don’t see through Cheney as the draft-dodging dude-rancher weenie he is.
Maybe they do, I dunno.
But he looks like such a candy-ass at those races.
Lindar @ 128: did not know Paul Harvey is pro choice. Seems like the choice people should be making more of that. He’s huge in the midwest.
watertiger#135…LMAO
Jay @ 137: nice point.
ck, yeah, shellfish are a no-no for the devout.
They don’t know what they’re missing.
Has anyone else tried the “listen here” link in the article? It doesn’t work for me, and it looks suspiciously like the kind of link you get when someone forget the “http://” prefix.
El Cid
Mark The Shark says:
What are you lefty baby killing whiners doing in this communist terror cell chat room. I’ll tell you what’s FUBAR–that you whack jobs think that you’re doing anything but helping Bin Laden with this nonsense. Vote Hillary. It’ll help us out.
jay and stephen,
i’m still waiting for someone to uncover that portrait in Reed’s attic.
And marc and Josh, it’s hard to say which AAR needs more of, Jesus or the devil.
(Jesus, I can’t believe it. Well if your show goes AGAIN! – the best thing on radio – I’m done with AAR. WTF. Talk about FUBAR…)
Josh at 138 — unfortunately, they don’t. I live in WV — trust me when I say it. Blergh. Although, to be fair, Democrats and the corporate media have done nothing to dispell the “good ole boy” mythology that Rove has so painstakenly built up about Dead Eye Dick and his brush-clearing Shrub sidekick.
i have the portrait in Reeds Attic–it looks just like Pat Robertson
Stephen-
I’d settle for a functional exectuive structure with some real vision.
Sam does the best Pat Robertson impersonation.
cujo359 at 144: the calls can be heard here:
http://www.airamericaradio.com/fubar
In other words–Satan
Maron @ 121
Oddly, I think that global warming may be the wrench that’s already been tossed. Sunday School lessons about the beauty of creation get rocked pretty hard when you see photos of polar bears who have died because they can’t swim from one ice shelf to the next due to massive melting.
When National Geographic stands up for Evolution and Darwin in one issue, and global warming in another, you know that the Rapture Righties are gonna get ticked off. They can’t write off NG as left wing, treehugger propoganda. Slowly, but surely, global warming is mucking up their political beliefs, and the right wing propaganda machine is going to get ground up as a result.
Let’s just hope that it doesn’t take too long.
Stephen 146 – Whoever will let me keep my office space and fire anyone with “VP” or “executive” next to their name.
Cujo at 144 — I just checked the link. I made a typo when I put it in — one character off…anyway, it’s fixed now. Should work fine for you if you try it.
Peterr
Hope you’re right. Hope we can make global warming as scary as terrorism.
watertiger –
no shellfish, eh?
hmmm . . . perhaps Lieber-baby is really a devotee of Xenu?
Marc, yeah, definitely Satan. In heaven, with the whole Trinity thing, it’s definitely management by the committee. In Hell, you know who’s in charge. In other words, accountability.
Maybe we can show them that their God has been in cahoots with corporate interests and is the most threatening terrorist of all. Nah, then they’d say that’s what we’re waiting for–him to take us home.
Marc #157
One small differentiaton:
Global warming can be stopped. Terrorism will continue until the end of time. (You cannot win a war on a human emotion, or a tactic.)
Matt O at 152: also, Franken does a great one. There’s a famous SNL sketch, where Al does Robertson explaining all the jobs he’s had in his life, and why he shouldn’t be identified as a “religious broadcaster.” Very funny.
LindaR @ 128
Just when you think you know someone . . .
Despite his rep–Satan=effecient manager
Christy 148 – Absolutely. Sam and Stephen explain that kind of thing in the chapter “The Media Is Not Your Friend.”
I’m bracing myself for the regurgitation in the press this week of the “supreme court decision = terrorist loving” spin. The right wing has played the media so well, it’s hard to process.
Stephen Sherrill @ 139 — Paul Harvey’s position was civil libertarian, basically that the state should not be making medical decisions, as I recall. He also expressed strong respect for individual women, saying something along the lines that women can make their own decisions. I was blown away. The more I think of it, I think he said something about the religious objections, being religious in nature, should have no bearing in law. Gosh, I’d love to find that clip if it exists.
It’s also hard to reap political gain out of a war on global warming. And Halliburton has no shell companies to get contracts out of it.
Thanks for that Matt–
I guess I should call off my July 4th tire bonfire.
Stephen at 163 — Franken does do a great Robertson. We should have him do it with more frequency now that Pat has decided to call down the wrath of God against Latin American leaders — there is a man who needs more mockery.
I think the magic device is the Eisenhower Dream. It really was an extraordinary time, with us being the only industrialized country in the world with our factories left standing. And thanks to judicious socialism (the GI Bill, and the Interstate Highway System) we had a time where we were The Greatest Country In The World, which had full churches AND rocket science, freedom AND homogeneity, and Life Was Good.
Never mind about segregation and McCarthy and antisemitism and Mossadegh and all that stuff: that was the dream, and I think that’s the magic glasses they put on everybody when they enter the Emerald City.
As long as that template exists, we’ll have an uphill fight.
On the other hand, for the up and coming generation, the Golden Age is the Clinton Administration. I think he’ll be our Ike. Seriously.
Slightly (serious) OT –
An artist friend snapped a photo of a Dobson “Focus On The Family” roadsign, with a lightning strike in the background.
If anyone wants one, I’ll inquire as to the price.
i heard Halliburton has a contract to build a retractible roof over the entire nations sans CA, and NY and parts of New England and Minn in response ot global warming and KBR has the oxegen tank contract. True?
Josh #165 –
The media’s bending over backwards for the right-wing is nothing short of a threat to our democracy.
I still don’t understand the justification for putting journalists up against right-wing idealogues in debates.
It does two things: legitimize loons along the lines of Hugh Hewitt and Melanie Morgan; but it reinforces the idea that all journalists are liberals.
No tire bonfire for the 4th? Oh, the humanity!
We should have Sam and Al their Robertson impersonations on the same show and settle this thing once and for all. Before someone gets hurt.
retractable, like in stadiums.
Marc at 172. And they’ll still manage to overbill.
Stephen #174
I like that idea. A Pat-off, if you will.
If only we could get a retractable ‘do over’ for the Bush atrocities.
my typing is awful. I’m embarassed. I should’ve waited to do my nails. It’s screwing my with them wet.
Stephen — so, in researching this book, was there anything that you and Sam found that asbolutely shocked you? That you hadn’t expected at all?
Other than that Sam could write
Christy Hardin Smith @ 3:03 pm (#157) – Yes, it works now, thanks. Sometimes I think software can be too helpful, and this appears to be one of those times.
Stephen 174
No matter who’s doing Pat Robertson – - and don’t forget Jim Ward’s Evil Uncle Chuckles – - I can’t tell it’s not Craig Crawford.
BTW, did I hear Sam mention on AAR Friday another book coming out soon?
lol Marc at 181 — you are doing great. Quick chatting typing is rough. It’s taken me forever to get used to it. If we were doing this via mikes, you’d kick all our asses. *g*
Never mind the typos, Marc, it’s all part of the game. Language evolves over time, anyhow, you’re just helping it along…
Be honest Stephen. Who wrote the book?
Matt O at 174, I agree. The media’s masochistic relationship to the right seems to be getting worse and worse and is a huge threat. When the media is accused of treason, and gas chambers are mentioned, and yet they still bow down to the people that want to destroy them, what else can you do?
Evil Uncle Chuckles! Hilarious! It sounds just like him.
Matt O 172 – I agree. I think that our press had a huge test of their utility with the Bush administration, and they’ve failed totally. It speaks to both the types of people who get into traditional journalism and the effect of media consolidation.
They really helped screw us.
Josh
How are the resumes coming?
Marc, we outsourced the book to Southeast Asia. We looked at the numbers and it just didn’t make sense for us to do it here. Plus, huge tax breaks.
I kid because I love
Stephen @ 187,
It’s a case of “thank you sir, may I have another?” paddling.
The media doesn’t want to “lose its access.” And when some loony tune decides that it really would be a cool idea to whack Eric Lichtblau, then what?
Stephen, I think the journalism and punditry have melded together over the past decade so no one really knows the difference between fact and opinion anymore. Like I said before, facts are too gloomy without some spiffing up with rightwing opinion.
Stephen at 189 — I referred to it this morning as a “battered press syndrome.” Jane and I have talked about it a lot — and through that lens, it begins to make some sense. Based on all the battered women (and men) that I dealt with over my prosecutorial lifetime, it never ceased to amaze me that someone who had been beaten within an inch of her life would go running right back to the skeezeball that put her in the hospital, and then call our office relentlessly saying that she had lied to us about the sum being the one who beat her (his confession notwithstanding…). Craziness — but there are psychological reasons for this sort of sick dependency and fear. And I see a lot of similarities in press behavior (in some quarters, anyway) with the loudmouthed, emotionally abusive right.
Wow, you mean Sam stole a few of my bits, you came up with some great ideas and just sent it out to be put together. Who says this global economy isn’t working. Could you give me the number of that place. i got a book idea.
Marc –
It’s the cover letters that get me stuck.
Holy shit — I feel like I’ve been touched by an angel: I’ve been personally Sharc Attac’d!!
You lead on Marc the Sharc! Soon we’ll get rid of all these damn America-hating, liberal Republicans and get some REAL right wingers in power!!
(BTW, there just simply HAS to be some people at AAR or other places who can recognize what a broadcast achievement you guys have consistently performed; there’s NO WAY that your (pl) degree of righteous rage, insightfulness, masterful humor, and production values — when given a studio and a budget — can go unnoticed forever. There’s not a single other segment on radio as funny as, say, Al Qaida news. No where.)
Good night all, esp. Marc, Stephen et al (I’ll finally use my XMas gift bookstore card to buy FUBAR), I’m off to wastefully consume meat for the holiday.
Christy at 182. There were so many things, it’s hard to pick. There were a lot of self hating gay profiles in courage that we couldn’t put in, but the amount of them (and their level of homophobia) was shocking. When Roy Cohn is your life model, you’ve got problems.
And a lot of the quotes from minister types we have in there were shocking. Mostly, I think, because when they’re talking to their faithful, but don’t euphemize their message — they just say it, like the one from Terry Fox: (”If you can cause enough doubt on evolution, liberalism will die”).
Josh #197
I just got out of college and looking to get a “real job,” and I hate the cover letters. Absolutely hate them.
I think that since 911 the entire country has been treated like a battered spouse by this admin and may be starting to pull back and wake up
Love the “creationist museum” track. There’s something wonderful about allowing people to make fools of themselves by just having them explain what they’re thinking. That thing about “observation science” versus “historical science” was precious. Like the guy had any idea what he was talking about.
Stephen at 201 — that was one of my favorite quotes in the whole book. It sort of encapsulates the entire thought process in a one-sentence nutshell, doesn’t it?
marc, at 198: Friedman lays it all out in The World is Flat. It’s my life manual.
Marc @ 196,
You just gave Thomas Friedman a stiffy.
Josh at 197
Just use the AAR letter head that should get you. . .uh, yeah, I see what you’re saying.
*shakes fist @ Stephen 198 for being a faster typist.*
Stephen #204 –
Friedman also made like three or four predictions about the next six months being critical. How does that guy still have a job?
Christy 195 – I love “Battered Press Syndrome.” It perfectly describes Adam Nagourney and so many others.
I studied BWS some in undergrad, and it’s really quite tragic. My professor actually wrote a book called “More Than Victims” that criticized some of the classic BWS defenses for infantilizing the victims. But on a psychological level, infants are what our press has become. And yet they still want to be treated as noble scribes.
By the way, have you pitched “Battered Press Syndrome” to a book publisher? It’s a no-brainer. If you don’t, I will…
whoops. stephen @ 204.
damned glasses.
Christy, the battered wife syndrome is not only the perfect metaphor, it might be exactly the same brain process. It’d be interesting if some neuroscientist actually did a study and looked that brain patterns in battered wives and the Kurtzs and Matthews of the media. I can’t imagine that it’d be different.
Watertiger, Thomas Friedman’s stiffy is flat. In fact, it’s the title of his next book.
Josh #208
I think Sam will beat you to it.
Matt O. –
You should seriously contact the DNC for a job — specifically addressing the issue of viral marketing to the young. Help build a new generation of Brand Democrat loyalists.
Marc 201
Makes me think of Sam’s (frequent) audio drop “Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining”.
If you’re waking up from the battered spouse thing, that’s a good refrain to keep at the ready.
Creation Museum, great. I have that creationist guide to the Grand Canyon. Classic. It was created yesterday all at once. Genius. It’s certainly easier to wrap your head around than science. If I were a kid and given the options of homework or saying god did it. I don’t know, I might just take the easy road.
Stephen at 213 — there really is no other explanation for having Melanie Morgan on your show like Matthews does. She’s an embicile who spews moronic filth. (Oh, or is that Coulter? Or was that on Howie’s show this morning with Instahack and Hewitt on the same time? Blergh…I’m making myself ill…)
“FUBAR isn’t just another Bush bashing book. It focuses on a particular strain of Republicanism %u2014 the far-right Christian strain of Republicans or as I like to call them, the Christo-Fascist-Zombie-Brigade.”
Thank goodness Im not the only one worried about this. Im so glad I found this site.
-I just barfed all over my blog about the same problem, thinking I was a lone wacco woman with crazy ideas, but Im not! I’m NOT!
There are HUNDREDS of you!
Oh happy happy joy joy…
Morgan is an idiot–didn’t she do the Truth Tour of the Green Zone
Marc, that could also make all subject easier, like calculus. I don’t know the answer, but Jesus does. And he’s in here [point at heart]
ck — I’ll give it a try.
For now, I am off to get a haircut before work.
Be excellent to each other, and all that.
Marc at 218 — yeah, that whole “scientism” crapola that Stephen and Sam talk about with Bill Kristol’s mom (whose name I can never remember…). Idiotic, but brilliant in its simplistic hackery for the masses. SIGH
Stephen @ 212,
I heard that from a Pakistani cab driver who overheard it from the guy who sold him his Nokia cellphone.
Stephen:
What do you do when you’re not writing books with Sam?
You are funnee!
I’m heading out. I’m going to re-read FUBAR. It was great talking to all.
Stephen, I wish it were a joke, but I know too many people who explain things away by invoking God’s will.
I’m not surprised it’s so difficult to “un-convert” evangelical Christians – you’re asking them to give up a great deal more than their religious beliefs – things like community, a sense of shared purpose, and a feeling that life makes some kind of sense. And the more insular the group – the more that the church becomes a person’s entire social life – the harder it is to give up. In some situations, the “apostate” loses his or her family as well. There is also the satisfaction of believing that God looks on you and your group of believers with special favour – moral superiority can be seductive.
I understand this personally, growing up in a fairly restricted Mennonite environment. Sunday services morning and evening, Bible study on Wednesday, choir practice on Thursday, private school. A shared history complete with a founding myth, maryrdom, and persecution. A deep sense of moral superiority. A charming practice called “shunning”, which though no longer (literally) practiced in the community in which I lived, was still used in some conservative, rural churches. It created an emotional context that reinforced conformity. I did not have a single non-Mennonite friend until I was nearly thirty.
Now, my upbringing did not include the kind of demagoguery common in modern evangelical mea-churches, and there are things about my religious training that I still value, like the emphasis on peace, reconciliation, and non-violence. But even so, I’d be very surprised if attempts to talk people out of their beliefs were successful – you can’t ask people to give something up unless there is something else to take its place.
This has taken me roughly forever to type, and I’m doubtless deep in the land of EPU – but I’ll post anyway.
Janet
We love you Marc,
keep in touch, this is a great community, FDL!
Bye, Marc, thanks for playing!
thanks for stopping by, Marc!
Let’s face it..it’s a lot easier to be ignorant. “You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones we’re concentrating on”.. The Decider
thanks for doing this Marc. As a thanks, we’ll double your AAR stock options.
Stephen – sounds like a job for Malcolm.
To further the metaphor…it also mirrors Hegel’s master-slave relationship.
Marc Maron @ 3:23 pm (#218) – I think that’s the motivation for stuff like creationism – it’s easier to follow than the truth, and you don’t have to do any homework.
Thanks for stopping by.
Stephen 232
Awesome, put it towards my pension. Later.
Marc — thanks so much for coming today! (And for all the hints on alternative feel-good activities that aren’t sex…still taking notes…)
Marc @ #121
I think this fart-breathing shift to surreal thinking started about 25 years ago with Criswell in Dallas. The program then, which spread rapidly throughout evangelical churches, was that God wants you to be happy and wealthy. That appealed to both the already wealthy and the wannabes. It’s very provocative to have someone appeal to your innate tendencies toward greed and avarice and then wrap that appeal up in holy robes.
So, can you do something magical to change that? Probably not. It goes way back to the Calvinists.
What will change this, to some degree, is that the new believers, the megachurch parishioners, won’t survive the first big, hard downturn in the economy–when they’re walking holes in their shoes and picking up aluminum cans to cash in, they’re going to be wondering, studying mighty hard on why God the Paymaster has forsaken them.
The Republican Party and Corporate Christianity have–in a very strict marketing sense–been engaging in some serious cross-branding. They’re selling people power, and the things power brings.
When those people are powerless, that’s when they’ll open up to common sense, but not until.
and your little dog, too, at 226: I mosty write — magazines and tv, for the latter mostly comedy. Thankfully, my love of politics and air america has kept me from moving to LA and having to deal with all that money to be made out there.
Stephen,
NYC keeps ya grounded. Peace two fingers, yo!
Thank you Janet, for sharing that . . .
As you probably noticed, this thread is more of a snark fest about the wrong way X-tians.
There is nothing wrong with having devout beliefs and a strong sense of community; but the teachings of Jesus are more about tolerance and forgiveness that the dominionist crap served up by the Karl Rove mega churches.
Again — thanks for sharing your story.
jlr at 229, very nice post, and I agree completely. I had a similar upbringing — one in which the outside world was called the “secular world,” and the way the term was used, it obviously wasn’t a good thing.
Stephen at 242 — There must be a very interesting story from your Southern Baptist upbringing to your Air America gig..
So is the U.S. “beyond all recognition” or “beyond all repair” as Sam would say (since Seder is an “optimist” and still thinks it can be repaired)?
For those that believe like Seder that the U.S. can be repaired, how do you and I go about doing this? Suggestions?
I agree with Seder that it can be repaired.
Where do we go from here?
Stephen, Buddy, what’s wrong with moving out here to Los Angeles? We can always use another smart funny guy. Nice weather and big bucks..what’s not to like?
Prior to the 2004 election, an acquaintance informed my daughter that “all Christians vote for Bush”. The source: one of those mega-churches.
A few years they were a fringe voice. And I suspect they will eventually return there. They get overly excited at each millenium transition. Especially this one, the seventh (sabbath) millenium. Down the road they’ll get disappointed and begin to quiet down, Allah achbar.
Meanwhile, let them continue looking for Noah’s ark. How do they know it isn’t Utnapishtim’s ark (the Babylonian flood story)?
jlr @ 3:28 pm (#229) – the kind of demagoguery common in modern evangelical mea-churches
I can’t decide if “mea-churches” is a typo or a wonderful malapropism.
A few months ago, for family obligation reasons, I was at a Christian church service in a small eastern city. The most notable thing, as an outsider, was how much this congregation tried to make their own little community, and how every hymn and sermon seemed to reinforce the idea that they were their god’s people. This is the modern version of a small group of people who showed up in the New World in the early 18th Century so they could practice their own religion, and it looks like they’ve been somewhat insular ever since. This isn’t an Amish or Menonite community, it’s fairly mainstream, and yet even there you can see all those psychological forces at work.
So, like you, I despair of making these people give up believing what they do, even the parts that are fundamentally and demonstrably wrong. There’s just too much motivation to stay as they are.
Oh, and the homework’s a lot easier than physics, too.
Christy, at 244, yeah, I have to say, I’m one of the only southern-baptist-brought-up people I know in Manhattan. Though what I’d say for the short answer is that my political beliefs are quite similar to my father’s, only secularized. He belonged to the older SBC, before the fundy takeover in 1979. He was still extremely conservative theologically, but, like the baptists until the 1980’s, was also a big church/state separation guy. He believed that justice will come in the afterlife, I have my doubts, so I’d like to get it started now, just in case.
Stephen 228
Where can one see where you’ll turn up? Should I be pointing my brouser to StephenSherrill.com?
Thanks.
Stephen at 248 — sounds like we had similar upbringings in a lot of ways. It comes through in the humor and the issues that you and Sam chose for FUBAR. Funny that I just hadn’t recognized that until now.
jlr @ 228
“But even so, I’d be very surprised if attempts to talk people out of their beliefs were successful – you can’t ask people to give something up unless there is something else to take its place.”
This is the key to the universe.
One thing Bill Clinton does that makes him such a successful persuader: He never asks anyone to give up their beliefs. He explains to them why his point is in keeping with their beliefs.
ck, I know my post was not in the spirit of the thread, and lord knows the snark practically writes itself. But you know, snark never opened hearts and minds – and if we want to win people over, there needs to be at least a measure of understanding maybe even some compassion – not for the Rumsfelds of the world – but for the ordinary people who have been subjected to what can only be called brainwashing.
jay at 246: there’s nothing not to like in LA, especially in the winter. Sadly, a girlfriend in gradschool keeps me in New York (actually, I guess not so sadly).
and your little dog, too, at 250. Actually, I own stephensherrill.com, and that’s a good reminder to get it up and going. Right now, I’m writing a tv thing, and a few print things (one will turn up in GQ sometime this fall)…
Cujo359 – sorry to disappoint, but it’s a typo.
Los Angeles’ loss
Stephen,
Dear friend of mine is a preacher’s son from Mississippi. For a long time, he just didn’t discuss politics.
christy, at 251, that’s interesting, though not surprising (the similar upbringing thing). My family is actually from just south of you, in North Carolina.
Which is also why I get my hackles up with the Obama’s et al of the world lecture Democrats about needing to understand red state and religous people. There are plenty of progressives who understand religious people (and I’d be happy to match my knowledge of same with Obama).
jlr @ 3:47 pm (#256) – Cujo359 – sorry to disappoint, but it’s a typo.
That’s what I figured. But now, the next time you’re arguing with someone about what your god’s intentions are, you can point to this little accident and tell him how another mind could see intention that wasn’t there.
watertiger, at 258, yeah, the southern religious people I grew up with would never have discussed politics. Too bad that’s not the case anymore.
Stephen and Josh — thanks so much for taking the time to stop by and chat with the rest of us today. :) For those who don’t know, Stephen and Josh work with Sam Seder on Majority Report — you just aren’t familiar with their voices, but you are definitely familiar with their snarky touch on the show.
Stephen, I’m looking forward to continuing this conversation with you and Sam next week. I’ve got some fun questions for the two of you. *g*
Sorry to be late to the chat, I was out battling Joe Lieberman (actually I was with Matt Browner-Hamlin talking about Roots stuff, but same dif, actually).
Marc, Stephen — thanks so much for stopping by. The book is fabulous. And yes I stopped qualifying “the far right wing of the GOP” so long ago I can’t remember — any reasonable people have been purged, all that’s left are the wack jobs.
Stephen at 260 — folks in my family always talked about politics — just never, EVER, in the context of religion. Church was something sacred outside of the dirty business of politics in my family, and you’d get smacked upside the head if you ever suggested marrying the two topics. Too bad that didn’t hold out as a sentiment…
Stephen 259 — My dad was a preacher from Robertson County, Tennessee and Obama can kiss my…well we won’t go there. I’m rather tired about the loonies and their “we own Jesus” rhetoric. Enough.
Thanks for having us, Christy and Jane — was a lot of fun, and looking forward to continuing it next week (and Sam will be there, too). And I hope you’ve taken care of the Lieberman problem, Jane.
See you all next week, I hope…
Thank you, everyone
Stephen — I’m really looking forward to next week. Having seen you and Sam riff off each other in person, I can only imagine the serious discussion punctuated by snark… *g*
Night all…
Thanks a lot, Stephen!
Night, Josh! Thanks for stopping by — don’t be a stranger.
Thanks to you too, Josh, for coming by. We’ll be looking forward to seeing you next week.
I just love these threads.
thanks for the illuminating conversation!
Jane at 272 — I know, book club is one of the very best things we do.
Josh Orton:
It was nice to “meet” you, too.
I enjoy your sidekick stuff on the show.
Damn, I got here too late: that’s me.
Did I miss all the famous people…that aren’t blog people?
Wow. Sorry to have missed the party.
Wanted to talk Gay Republicans (aka. Jews for Hitler)
When these freaks aren’t closet cases like Drier then they’ve got gay kids. Phyllis Schlafly’s son John, who runs all her affairs, is a major leather queen (and no wonder.)
Tim and Beverly LaHaye have a gay son too.
hehehe John and Attaturk — Stephen and Sam will be back next week at 5 pm ET/2 pm PT — hopefully with more famous non-bloggy pals for you to worship from afar. *g*
Kos told me they’d still be here!
David at 278 — that’s going to be a big topic of discussion next week. Sam’s call to the right-wing nutball that thought Shark Tale was a gay propaganda flick was hilarious. And their chapter on Drier is even more so…especially given the Roy Cohn tidbits they throw into the pot. PLEASE come back and chat about this next week — your perspective on all of it would be fantastic!
Damn Markos! (Oops, did I type that out loud. Now I’ll have to do penance to his majesty…)
Oh my dearie me — look what’s in the NY Post:
COPYCATTY COULTER PILFERS PROSE: PRO
I most definitely will, Christy.
As I’m sure I mentioned to you, Ken, the most beautiful boy in G.A.A. ended up as Roy Cohn’s chauffeur.
He’s dead too.
Ahnuld was feted by the Log Cabinettes (aka Jew For Hitler) yesterday in L.A. Fred Phelps and company picketed. Why I can’t imagine. They have so much in common.
returning from a nap, Springsteen’s “Promised Land” is on the radio:
There’s a dark cloud rising from the desert floor
I packed my bags and I’m heading straight into the storm
Gonna be a twister to blow everything down
That ain’t got the faith to stand its ground
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
lotus says:
July 2nd, 2006 at 4:37 pm
IMHO your link is absolutely HUGE!.
David E. — The self-loathing just baffles me.
Thar she blows, awright. Tasty, innit?
lotus @ 4:37 pm (#283) – Almost makes me think that the GOP is throwing Annie under a bus. There’s been work like this on the Net for years. Anyone who isn’t familiar with Coulter’s habit of misusing footnotes hasn’t ever looked for her on the Internet. The plagarism charge, while a bit newer, shouldn’t be all that surprising given her lack of writing talent and contempt for scholarship.
Editor and Publisher picked up the Post’s Coulter Plagiarism story about fifteen minutes ago.
Cujo and Lotus:
What’s the penalty for that kind of wholesale plagiarism?
Seems like the publisher pulled back the book by a Harvard studen they had just published. That got a heck of a lot of coverage, too.
Will Coulter get away with this just like Bushco gets away with everything they do?
Should have specified, “the New York Post’s” story.
Well. I just emailed the NYP story to the ed-page editor at the Sun-Sentinel (”Subject: Why are you publishing a plagiarist, please?”).
Hope I’m not the first to have done so today . . .
America thanks Philip Recchia and John Barrie — now duck, Phil and John!
Ann Coulter taken down by — plagiarism. There are sewers out there that are vile enough for Ann to double dip?
The top three stories at dKos are the media push back against the minions of Satan.
Maybe their is a spark of journalistic integrity left in the fourth estate.
Coulter’s plagiarism helps on several levels.
1. People will start scrutinizing other stuff she has written.
2. It’s a chance for the traditional media to resurrect stories about Jim Brady’s former employee, Xerox Ben.
Anal sex is OK? Well then anyone fuckin a gooper is OK- cause they’re assholes!
Speaking of plagiarists, looky who’s still on the board at Redstate .com.
Great thread, gang, thanks to our authors and their peeps. Just making my way through it. Wish I would have had the time to read FUBAR, will put it on my MustRead list.
Lotus, that link is HILARIOUS!! “…cribbed liberally…” HAHAHAHAH!! Loved the use of the L-word there. The pic also is a hoot — from the looks of it I’d say she cribbed those mammaries liberally, too. Heh. What a way to send off this thread!
Yepper, “BUSTED” is the word, I bleeve, Rayne.
Ann Coulter the plaigerizer!! LOL! This puts her on a literary par with Ben Domenech. May she share his fate.
Should that be “plaigerist”?
plagiarist
Oops, is this thread still reserved for FUBAR comments? Sorry if I broke the rules. Although Ann Coulter is a part of the greater FUBAR equation.
I’m sure there is junk from Germany from the 30s and early 40s that Coulter could run through a computer translation program — she could pass it off easily in her column …
Something tells me this topic is welcome here, neuro . . .
lotus
My New Oxford American Dictionary lists both plagiarist and plagiarizer, but I think your version (the former) sounds more elegant.
The wonderful thing is, neuro, they’re both spelled “kaput”!
I wonder if there is not a special place in Hell for lawyers who plagiarize. It has the smell of moral turpitude.
plagiarist or plagiarizer — both mean “cheater” or “swindler”
registering to vote in a precinct where you dont live and then attempting to vote there spells “felony” in Florida and that trumps “moral terpitude” in losing your law license …
WaterTiger: The ghost of Mordecai Kaplan won’t care about the lobsters.
ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct
Rule 8.4
It is professional misconduct for a lawyer to:
(a) violate or attempt to violate the Rules of Professional Conduct, knowingly assist or induce another to do so, or do so through the acts of another;
(b) commit a criminal act that reflects adversely on the lawyer’s honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects;
(c) engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation;
(d) engage in conduct that is prejudicial to the administration of justice;
(e) state or imply an ability to influence improperly a government agency or official or to achieve results by means that violate the Rules of Professional Conduct or other law; or
(f) knowingly assist a judge or judicial officer in conduct that is a violation of applicable rules of judicial conduct or other law.
Not giving a legal opinion here, but I think plagiarism qualifies.
Just because it’s one more reason to vote with your wallet on this one–
People that weren’t following the Morning Sedition saga obsessively at the time like I was (people with careers and social lives, say) might not know what a stand-up dude Sam Seder is. When AAR decided to kill their best show (and that’s not subjective, so bite me) not one host on that network said shit except Seder. And from a corporate standpoint, he was clearly one of their most expendable, yet night after night he stuck his neck out to keep Marc on the air.
So buy his book even if you don’t want to read it, because he’s got integrity and balls, and he should be rewarded for it. Kinda like how I listen to Majority Report even though I hate extemporaneous political talk shows.
That’s sort of on-topic, right?
Hmm . . . HufPo doesn’t have it yet.
Wolcott, however, is on the case . . .
that’s all very nice for the LIBERAL A.B.A. to say but the Florida State laws control licensing …
A liar, plagiarist, fraudulent voter, and really subhumanly unattractive. Yeah, I think her shrill 15 minutes are clocked out.
new thread — about that plagiarist (or plagiarizer)
FLA Bar Rules have that clause too, *ilson. (Of course, I’m not sure she’s a member — the last Bar directory I got was Sept 2000, and she wasn’t listed then.) But I’m pretty certain that all state Bars include that rule.
Google Ann Coulter plagiarism and you will get about 98,000 hits, and they aren’t all recent. Apparently she has a history with this.
As for bar association rules, I believe Ann was admitted to the bar in New York. She may be now in Florida, I don’t know, but I agree with lutus, it is a pretty standard provision.
Sorry. lotus.
Stephen @ 134…
you think ralph reed is str8?!?!?!?
Jane (@287) it’s what’s known as Cognative Dissonance. They see only what they want to see and know only what they want to know. Moreover they have not the slightest jot of fellow-feeling for any other member of the human race.