
(Note: I’m in Connecticut and would like to organize some sort of get-together for readers. If you’d like to join us let me know in the comments.)
David Sirota’s post at the HuffPo, echoing both Jen Nix and Glenn Greenwald, brings up a subject I’m happy to see taking root in the progressive blogosphere — the need for the netroots to support liberal writers. One of the things people have been mentioning as we travel across the country is the need to provide a counterbalance for the wingnut welfare that interjects the abject ravings of eliminationist fantasists and racist mall rats into the national discourse far in excess of anything they’d ever achieve by virtue of their own merits. It’s the reason we started the FDL Book Salon. We’ve got to show up for our own.
Congratulations are in order for David, whose book Hostile Takeover just hit the NYT Bestseller list. You would think that establishment media would be relieved at not having to singe their eye sockets with another Anne Coulter book and would be happy to review intelligent, energetic, well-researched books like David’s and Glenn Greenwald’s, but you would be wrong.
That work we are doing – and the growing energy behind our movement – is clearly frightening the Establishment. You can see it in the Establishment’s vicious reaction to progressive’s recent books. Al Franken and Al Gore’s books were both attacked with dishonest lies. Markos and Jerome’s book was slandered by Matt Drudge. My book was smeared by a bitter, angry reporter at the Washington Post who seemed appalled that someone had the nerve to expose the putrid corruption growing in Washington, D.C. like gangrene. And, incredibly, Glenn Greenwald’s book has been treated to a vow of silence – with almost no major news outlets even reviewing it.
But this treatment is all a good sign. As Gandhi once said: “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.” This very thing happened to me personally. When I first decided to write Hostile Takeover, many in Washington’s elite circles brushed me off as if I was crazy for even thinking about writing about corruption. Then, as hard-hitting parts of the book seeped out, they tried to downplay and ridicule the cold, hard facts they couldn’t answer for on the merits. Then they fought me through dishonest attacks. But now, at the end of the day, it’s clear who the winner has been. This is the same thing for the progressive movement as a whole. Politicians have long ignored us. Organizations like the corporate-funded DLC have ridiculed us. Now, those who haven’t joined us are fighting us. But we are most decidedly on the verge of big wins all over this country.
I guess traditional media types would rather continue to fluff the bullies who beat them up and steal their lunch money than support those who would challenge them. Cowardly, but telling.
Related posts:
- The “Atlantic 50″ Exposes Liberal Media Influence (or Not)
- Village Surprised by Support for Public Option
- Bobby Jindal: Democrats Lack Public Support for Health Care Reform, Should Listen to Republicans
- Dog Day America: The Militarization of Our Local Police
- Robert Greenwald Says Thanks to John Conyers at Michigan Liberal





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fitz
I believe! We can take back this country. The question is when.
[it said there were no comments so I thought I would take a chance at being first.]
Fitz! Glenn! David!
Rootz!
FITZ!
Okay, how about a wonderful congressman running for Senate.
Sherrod Brown for Senate!! (running agnst DeWine)
I’ll drink to that!
Ah, Mr. Teller, a quick typist. You chose to say something short, but meaningful. :-)
Um, the end of the post seems to be missing.
And at the same time the above mentioned books generally are ignored, their authors trashed, Coulter is treated like some kind of prom queen/Dorothy Parker.
Hope you dogs are adjusting, Jane.
-uh-, in OH(!), where all votes will be counted if we have to hang the SecyofState/GovCandidate Blackwell by his thumbs unless & until. . .
(so stunned at appearance of blank comments section, got a lil rushed)
GrandmaJ,
my 2nd Fitz in eleven months here.
Jane! Welcome to the Northeast, the Den of Liberal Iniquity!
If you want to daytrip into NYC, give me a holler. Alternatively, let me know if you do get a group together.
I’m easy. But I’m not cheap.
Why is no one in Left Blogistan willing to speak out about what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank? I feel like I am violating political correctness by even bringing up this topic…
http://katrinamemo.blogspot.co…..-holy-land
Coulter is more like an ideological Typhoid Mary and should be treated as such …
Norman Solomon’s brilliant book, War Made Easy, was reviewed by exactly one corporate newspaper, and he received exactly zero invitations from such outlets as The Daily Show or anything else to talk about it.
i don’t believe me eyes– is that a Cosmo with a peanut float?
Ed Deevy: it’s been brought up quite regularly in here … Wolcott just did a chilling piece about it http://jameswolcott.com/
Ed at 13, any country that bombs children on the beach is not my ally.
It’s really hit me the last few days, looking for books in different stores here in georgia. I was in my hometown recently in south georgia, and without internet orders, you would never see any of the great books coming out of the left – in stores or even in the library. I did see Ann Couter’s scary gaze in grocery store book aisles, as well as some of the other right-wing crazys. Here in north georgia, the situation isn’t much better. I was under the impression that Kos and Greenwalds book both was doing well on the NY Times charts, but they’re nowhere to be found in the small stores in my area, and I had to dig in the barnes and noble a few town away. All the time with a large steaming pile of Ann stacked as soon as you come in.
We need more info, more books, people don’t like this government but have it in their head that the dems are either non-existant anymore, or they’ve bought straight into the Republican definiton of a Democrat (flag-burning, turn your children athiest and gay).
Sorry for the rant, just been eating at me the last few days.
P
for that matter, Ed — this is the second time you’ve descended from on high in here and asked naively about the subject. The first time you incarnated yourself here, you were told the same as now: it’s being covered and discussed! We are not a den of AIPAC serpents, in case you are wondering …
Ed Deevy — you’re not violating political correctness. You are, however, rather shamelessly blogwhoring.
These descenders-from-on-high we’ve been attracting lately are certainly a tiresome lot.
we are a squadron of rabid lambs, dripping venom, being shepherded by a posse of dark poodles to protect justice and democracy and the American way of life!
I’m living in Massachusetts but I would love to hear about any gathering of FDL people in Connecticut. Let us know the details.
Hi Jane,
I live in CT, and am a daily blogger on DNC, and visit myleftnutmeg, nedlamontblog, Daily Kos, firedoglake, myleft wing and others.
I am hosting a house party on Wed, 7-12th for Ned. Would love to have you stop by if you are around East hartford. I invited Tim and Aldon, too. I have no idea how many will attend, I did not do RSVPs for some reason.
Welcome to Connecticut. Are you reading the Hartford courant and their almost-daily Lieberman/Lamont articles? They are really playing it up!
Please contact me if I can ever help you in any way. I know Tina, Rose, Vicki, etc. Going to Luther’s house for the debate next Thursday.
Will be looking for you along the way.
Regards, Pam
Ed Deevy,
I’ve asked similar questions here, sorta did last night. But fdl has brought the plight of the Palestinians up more than a few times. This turning of Gaza into the siege of Gazagrad is going to become a bigger story every day the Israelis keep up their current approach.
And ramifications of Hamdan will have an important impact on our interaction with Israeli contract agents working in the prisons of Iraq and Afghanistan.
What kind of martini is that?
Oh, and bombs are bad, mkay?
Now that I’m laid off from a global telecom, I’m getting Greenwald’s book. But first, I will read Jacob Slichter’s “So you wanna be a rock and roll star,” cuz at ~40, I still do. Now’s my chance.
What was this about? Oh, right. Bettie!! (McCollum, D-MN)
The March of Science
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07…..nted=print
jane,
how about hartford? or better yet northampton, ma former haunt of redd.
Thanks for nod, Jane. We should all thank our lucky stars (and net neutrality for the time being) that the patriots in the blogosphere are making sure Sirota’s, Greenwald’s and Boehlert’s ideas are getting any hearing at all.
Sorry I’ve been away from FDL for a bit–been on the road and wrapping up my gig at Working Assets. Hope to be spending A LOT more time here, and very soon.
O my goodness! I seem to have offended a few readers. My apologies for the blog-whoring.
In Alaska, when you see something like that floating on top of your manhattan, you want to check if it is still breathing before you sip,……plus, Ill bet it ate the cherry.
Ed Deevy 31 — I have more tolerance for it than some (having built a blog myself), but it does seem to cause a bit of disturbance in the atmosphere. Tying it into the subject at hand usually seems to cause fewer speed bumps.
Mary,
A drive by but the AUMF of Septmeber 2001 Sec 2 b 2:
“(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.”
and Sec8d 1-2 of that Resolution:
“(d) Nothing in this joint resolution–
(1) is intended to alter the constitutional authority of the Congress or of the President, or the provision of existing treaties; or (2) shall be construed as granting any authority to the President with respect to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances which authority he would not have had in the absence of this joint resolution.”
Which is to say that the AUMF does not grant the President any implicit powers beyond those stated in the AUMF: which is to
“use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.”
In my reading of the AUMF and the War Powers Resolution of 1973 having captured or subdued these persons, the President has no authority to construe new or futher powers to deal with them because these are not specified in either document and are therefore expressly denied by them.
Hi Jen — good to hear from you again!
Have felt for a long time that it seems like the choices one has are to be aligned with the party of facts, or the party of fear…
This got me to thinking about how that’s the rational v. the irrational, and waging a campaign of facts is just not going to reach someone with irrational fears. It’s why explaining to a child that there are no monsters under the bed or in the closet usually doesn’t work – not as long as the child believes the monsters are there.
We find ourselves in the thick of a fight for the soul of this country, and we are waging it against people who have unleashed the scared inner child of a lot of people, who only want the scary stuff to go away – and not being scared about the mosters is more important to them than losing the essence of what makes this America. They don’t see, as we do, that the monster in plain view is far scarier than the one under the bed.
Breaking through the barrier between the rational and the irrational is not for those who give up easily. So, while we are all talking up these excellent, excellent books, and picking up on the expressions of distrust and disappointment that have crept into the conversations of formerly loyal conservatives, we also have to remember those who agree with us, but who don’t vote.
We need to get as many of us as we can to the polls on election day. Period. And if we can take some from “their” side with us – all the better.
It’s the only way for us to be the best educated winners on November 8th.
Pete Yost of the AP chimes in with a good article about Hamdan and domestic spying http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..hvBHNlYwM-
Jane 21 -
any leads on keyboard sleeves for laptops?
tea spew doth not a happy powerbook make
but well worth it
Ed 20 –
I ain’t no post whore here, but here’s some of the previous discussion you missed. Perhaps more reading and toning down the supercilious act a notch would help you more effectively convey views to those who share them with you.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-162692
kirk murphy says:
June 27th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
*ilson46201
“it’s 4am in Gaza and the temperature is 73F but it’s expected to get up to 89F later – but the Israelis just bombed the power plant so there’ll be no air-conditioning %u2026″
with the fuel shortage (due to the economic blockade), I wonder how soon before the hospitals’ emergency generators run out.
bye, bye ICU patients
and ventilator patients
and soon dialysis patients
Or perhaps the IDF will do what the US did in Fallujah and occupy the hospital before the next stage of the invasion.
Cuts down on the pictures of atrocities if the ER is closed – can’t let too much gore pile up at the scenes of these liberations.
It might disrupt the news cycle.”
168
angie says:
June 27th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
No water or food or meds either, kirk.
could be goodbye to everyone.”
and a whole more there, Ed – as you are so concerned about this content, I didn’t trouble to pretty up the quotes – I’m sure your burning interest and obvious diligence will have you back reviewing the old threads first hand.
sure.
Adie, I’m in Ohio, and that’s my feeling too: We’re gonna count the votes this time, every. last. one.
Hi everyone,
I have to get to sleep, but couldn’t resist linking this Op column from the WSJ regarding the NYT brouhaha. Can you spell sanctimonious?
We are so in Rove’s pocket
wrt FDL get together in CT – jane, please count me in! i’m in MA, but that’s not far… indeed several of us MA roots folks with free time in july plan to volunteer for the lamont campaign if there is anything useful we can do to help (we are within easy driving distance of CT).
“Coulter is treated like some kind of prom queen/Dorothy Parker.”
The Dorothy Parker of a HoJo’s round table, with J-Pod as it’s Alexander Wolcott, Pantload Goldberg as its George S Kauffman, and David Brooks as its Harold Ross. How depressing.
Ed, go read the other Wolcott’s ignoring of what’s going on in Israel and Palestine. Then go start your own damn blog.
Hugh says:
June 30th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Do you have a link to the complete AUMF resolution, please?
Just a word out to Hamsher et al – while I have enjoyed the blogs (yours especially), I too have many concerns about the well being of the country and I disagree with the Bush Administration. However, it might be a good time to remind your readers, that its good to step away from the internet and not to forget to “enjoy life” for a while. Personal crisis with someone close to me that is “consumed with everything they read on the internet, politically, socially, conspiracy theories etc. in the blogosphere.” Its causing this person to make decisions that are affecting their relationships with others. Example – This person sounds just as nasty and ugly as the right wing talking heads. Its getting out of control for them and I don’t know what to do. This person refuses to listen to anyone that disagrees with him on any level. They are an expert on everything; everyone is wrong and he is right. Any suggestions?
Hi, Jane, how’s the house hunting going? I’m glad to hear Katie’s better. Had to pick up some baby food for Zoey today, the heat is setting her old lady belly off a little.
Wonderful post, Anne. Thanks.
Jen, I was a B&N the other day and found Glenn’s book in the shelves; I rearranged the shelf so it was facing out. CTG, too. That’s me, stealth marketing agent.
MelodyMaker, I still wanna be a backup singer. I love harmonizing.
for that matter: it’s almost 5am in downtown Baghdad and the temperature is 84ºF but later in the day it’s expected to rise to 109ºF — it’d sure be nice to have electricity to run air-conditioners and refrigerators!
zennurse says
June 30th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Have you seen this? http://www.editorandpublisher……1002764884
BTW — for those leaving word in the comment section — please include a functional email when you leave the comment. It won’t show up but I’ll have it so I can contact you.
jane, i am in springfield, ma, and would love to join up, please let me know the details, thanks
Witney, I’m no mental-health practitioner, but it certainly sounds as if your friend’s blog-consumption has more to do with symptom than cause.
Ed Deevy -
Try Left I on the News for regular coverage on Palestine
I submitted a different one
OMOIGAWD! Crazy Moonbat Jane Hamshuh linked to moi video! Duh people were aksin’ for video; so oi gave it to ‘em! Boy did I evah! I looked so HOT, tawkin’ to ‘em and tellin’ ‘em about da tremendous threat of Aztlan! OMOIGAWD! Wasn’t the little goil I had with me cute! No FRICKin’ way, Jawn Derbyshire! You can’ touch huh! No FRICKin’ way! Now back to Jane Hamshuh and huh crazed moonbats! Wake up, people! Wake FRICKin’ UP! Weah ina wah, heah. A wah! And you just wanna listen to that idiot Gawg Clooney when the only Gawg anyone should be listenin’ to is Gawg Bush. Gawg Bush RULEZ! OMOIGAWD! Will someone get me anutha ice skim milk double-caf cappachina wit Splenda! Make it TWO Splenda, this time! Oim goin’ outta my FRICKin’ mind tryin’ to ejacate des Moonbats! They don’ know that the Mexicans wanna make Aztlan run due nawth right to the FRICKin’ Five Towns. OMIGAWD! It’s true. The FRICKin’ Five Towns are facin’ an imnent threat and duh people watchin’ my video — the Righties — that’s RIGHTies — get it? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! FRICKin’ Genius! Okay, gotta go. SeeYA!Wouldn’twannaBEEEEEya!
Now if I had to guess, I’d guess a certain Eli is in da house . . .
Whew!
Just back from reading all the 434 comments to my diary at dKos (well, 422, since I posted 12 replies).
It was nice to see my diary show up as a “recommended diary” on the front page (and it’s still there at this hour), but . . . .
What a difference between the community over there and FDLers. One commenter posted more or less this same comment 34 times, in various forms:
Oh for crissakes. This diary is bullshit.
Dont pay attention to this erroneous diary please.
Not to say that there weren’t some interesting comments as well, but they were needles-in-the-commentstack.
I scurry back over to FDL for a higher signal-to-noise level.
And truly clever snark, in place of puerility.
Um, Prof, scroll up a couple . . .
Oh have mercy! LOLOL comment number 54….we got talent here!
Thanks, Stephen, I appreciate that. You, as always, have just the right response at your fingertips.
Witney, I’m sorry to hear about your friend. I wonder if they are falling into the anger/despair pit and looking for others who will keep them there (online)? YOu don’t say whether they recognize how over-focused they have become. It would probably help to get away from the computer, but if that’s not possible, maybe finding some humorous political sites would help balance the heavy stuff. I love dependable renegade, and Jesus’ General.
It’s a tough issue.
ya want puerility? we can do puerility ! for days !
Jane, really, the functional e-mail won’t show up?
Promise?
OK. I trust you. (But I have still modified it just in case, to avoid spam crawlers.)
Um…that is sarcasm, no?
Margot, so am I.
Ted Strickland
Sherrod Brown
Mary Jo Kilroy
(P.S. I’m having trouble with the html, there’s always a new line before it kicks in?)
Re: Ct gathering, Jane you know where I am, just going to mention that I work every weekend, but understand that the rest of the universe is off, so may not be able to gather with others there.
*ilson 47
You mean cutting off the power for air-conditioning in the desert summer doesn’t win hearts and minds in Gaza or Baghdad?
Who knew!
Prof 56 -
Congrats on your successful debut. Hope the pueriles don’t grind you down.
(heck, my first DK diary was ignominiously deleted and after my fifth or sixth the little “post comments” box had disappeared from my home dk page….)
Um — that is sarcasm, no?
I’m not sure. I think it may be the real Pam!
“I wonder if they are falling into the anger/despair pit and looking for others who will keep them there (online)?”
that is exactly correct! yes, they know they are overboard, but think that they are serving a higher purpose by spewing out their “informed opinions.”
Jane,
Your feedback is greatly appreciated. I’m a huge fan of this site! And a huge fan of you and Christy. Some of this has to do with the years I spent on the front lines of the civil right struggle in the late Sixties and early Seventies. But, in retrospect, my comments were inappropriate. Why should I hijack a discussion here to promote my own agenda? My only excuse…frustration over whats happening in the Isreali/Palestinian conflict.
Again, sorry about the blog whoring. No excuses.
Well done, Ed.
News that’ll make you smile: Prosecutors Seek $183M From Lay, Skilling
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..lling.html
Ed: perhaps I was a tad arch in my replies to you — but popping in quasi-chidingly isn’t a way to get a deserving message across …
Jane, I would love to meet up with you guys. Can I bring my daughter who simply loves your dogs and I know you would love meeting my daughter as well. I do not live in Ct. I live in New York right on the border with Connecticut, literally 1000 meters from Sherman. [and Pam keeps me sane]
Prof – Congrats on your dKos debut! It’s a very different audience and I find it a bit odd though I suspect that if you are a regular, the experience is more enjoyable since you know the histories and styles of the folks who comment. And if you happen to be at that ivy covered place in the city where Jane has landed, say hi to my mom – she’s one of the afternoon guards at the law lib! (I am so proud of her!)
I’ll mention that we’re working away at the YKOS book – Unconventional – and looking into publishers as well as planning the ebook edition. Early word is the photos are amazing and a lot of neat folks are contributing text.
and Ed – many of us raise the current attack on Palestine throughout the day and have contributed links to info, etc. One thing I’ve learned online is that instead of complaining about what someone else is not doing, I can jump in and do it myself – that’s open source baby as we say at Ykos and a good approach in many ways.
Jane sez:
“…tying it into the subject at hand usually seems to cause fewer speed bumps.”
So that’s where I missed out on my dire need for feedback… I should’ve snarked something unrelated to the original post– say, umm, Dick Cheney’s monster package of junk/frontloaded fanny-pack. Someone help me with a link!
Margot, I’d sing with you anytime just cuz. ((whissperr, call mee!!
Ed -
I appreciate your gracious words and the work you did in the civil rights struggle – as well as your concern for those suffering in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Hope we both live to see a Middle East without war crimes and human rights atrocities. Hope we live to see a Middle East without war.
Ann Coulter is evil incarnate –
Ann Coulter is the Spawn of Satan –
Any MSM Outlet that gives face time, air time, or ink to the Spawn of Satan is objectively Pro-Satan.
Any MSM Outlet that gives face time, air time, or ink to the Spawn of Satan is a TOOL of Satan — whether wittingly or unwittingly.
In order to turn things around, we must ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTAAAACK!!! the Messenger — we must inflict pain upon the MSM, until they break out in a cold sweat whenever anyone suggests they book the Spawn of Satan.
Matt Lauer, do you have a shrine to Satan at home? No? Well, why did you not walk off the set when asked to be the TOOL of the Spawn of Satan?
That kind of pain — the kind of pain that did in Dan Rather — is the only way will make the MSM honest reporters again.
Lizzy talking about This Pam, not the Pam at Atlas Shrugged one. Just so you know.
Gee, ck, was Mann Coulter on TV or was that just out of the blue?
This Pam is the Atlas Drugged Pam . . .
Matt Lauer did the initial interview of Coulter’s book rollout
Sorry folks, I meant BERGS!!!
Pammy at 54, now that’s drawing a picture with words. Or a video with words. Top drawer!
Thanks for the insight, siun.
No, I’m not at that place in New Haven where above the west door is carved this from Justice Holmes: “The life of the law is not logic, but experience.”
I misunderstood Jane’s comment, and now see that she was collecting e-mails from those who might be in her area for a microbrew or whatever lesser libations Oregonians drink when they are Out East.
Witney, your friend needs to be reminded that without balance there will be no energy left for the election. I don’t know what they’re reading, whether it’s all conspiracy stuff or some of the more mainline and reality-based blogs, but I know that one way people here stay sane is to get involved in their communities. There will be no change if everyone is sitting at a computer right up to the election. They could volunteer to work for a candidate, or be a poll watcher, or work with their local Dem party. Hell, they could go clean up the side of the road ( here we clean the beach), and that would be a positive contribution.
All the answers are not online; they sound like they’re letting the computer do their thinking. Sounds like a little action (rather than talking) might help.
Another possibility is that they are having a little agitated depression with some compulsion thrown in. But I’m a nurse, not a psych person. I know that happened to me around the 04 election, with news not online, though and it’s hard to stop once it gets going.
Hope that helps. I work twelve hour weekends, so have to go to bed, but I hope you will let us know how things turn out. YOur friend is lucky to have someone like you who will advocate for them like this. Best luck and
Namaste
Night pupsters, with love
zen
kirk murphy @ 75 – hope springs eternal, but even if the Dalai Lama were in charge of reconciliation in the Middle East, we wouldn’t see much imporvement. That’s my biggest frustration when dealing, especially, with the conflict in Palestine. I have so many Palestinian friends and so many Jewish friends and relatives, and none of them has any hope, so why should I?
But I do.
Look Whitey, skip all the psycho-babble crapola about what’s wrong with your friend. Just grab him/her, take them out, and get good and drunk. Go paint the town red, raise hell, chase some skirts and/or dudes, and enjoy. Your friend just needs an attitude adjustment. Good luck.
Ghostman
zennurse –
someone upthread mentioned taking down the Spawn of Satan, and it set me off. I am so bummed about incompetence in the Democratic Party, and how far behind the curve we are in opposing the Fascist Anti-Christ Incarnate Bush Administration, I’m ready to throw things at the TV.
But even in Blogtopia (coined by Skippy) so many of our leading lights don’t get it. Nothing here, but Prof’s experience with his dKos diary set me on edge. The dKos and MyDD rating system SUCKS — it promotes Lord of the Flies attack zones, and we don’t need it.
Anyway — what pissed me off most today was this nugget from Kevin Drum — Marshall Whitman thinks the Hamdan is an attack opportunity for Karl Rove, and the Congress will fall all over themselves to give more dictatorial powers to BushCo. Sad to say, I agree . . .
http://www.washingtonmonthly.c…..009108.php
Bah. Humbug.
[/rant]
Marshall Whitman thinks the Hamdan is an attack opportunity for Karl Rove, and the Congress will fall all over themselves to give more dictatorial powers to BushCo.
If it is, it is only because of ineffectual alleged opposition by people like Marshall Whitman.
Off topic and tacky — please forgive me!!!
To egregious: Thank you so much for the donation you made to Charlie Brown. Your post was EPU’d and I saw it later. I’ve been wanting to catch you posting when I’ve been on so I could thank you. Now the two friends I have IRL have asked me to dinner, so I’m posting this thank you here and now because I have to go now, and as more time goes by I feel ruder and ruder!
Gah! So my apologies to everyone for being so off topic here. And egregious, I did meet Charlie Brown and his wife Jan, and here is a picture.
Please no one else look!
Jane,
I am curious. Where will you be viewing the Debate on Thursday? Will you be able to attend it, or watching at some Gathering?
Hi Jane,
I would love to join a get-together here in CT. Monday evening would be great. I’m in Meriden — same place as Ned’s HQ.
Just back from vacation on the Cape without Internet access — how long will you be here?
Uhhh….Jane, is that what I think it is, floating in that martini glass? :o)
g’night, zen
(if it’s not too late….)
Hi Jane,
I am a regular reader (and Lamont volunteer) and would love to join local FDLers for a get together! I live in Newtown & there is a great progressive/activisty place down the road in Bethel– Molton Java Coffee House that might be a terrific place to meet! I know the owner Wendy and I bet she would be thrilled to offer the place up! (at least I think she would!) Let me know!
Karen
tanbark 92
i don’t know if this one of the times to hope a cigar is really a cigar…..(or hope not!)
On the NewsHour, Mark Shields said that members of both parties want to look strong against terrorists, and both will support giving BushCo the legal authority to do whatever with the Gitmo terrorist detainees.
Nevermind that all but ten — count ‘em, ten — are hapless sad sacks that got vacuumed up in the War on Terra, and are guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
David Brooks said the GOP wants to use Hamdan to inject a fresh dose of Terra, Terra, Terra!!! into the electorate.
How have the Democrats responded in the past?
My frustration is made manifest by Lieber-baby — if we don’t kick this Vichy Democrat attitude in the teeth NOW, the Dems will lose in November.
ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTTAAAAAACK!!!
Um . . . What in hell is that floating in the martini? Please tell me somebody didn’t photoshop Lieberman’s nose!
ifthethunderdontgetya, OK, I remember now. I’m in OH-18, Lobster Boy’s district.
By the way, this might help get people to the polls:
“Bush Advisor Norquist: If we get 60 Republican senators, Social Security is toast.”
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..008898.php
What have you done today to get a democrat elected?
None of this matters if we don’t win the ground game.
GET OUT THERE NOW AND MAKE ADIFFERENCE! IT WON”T HAPPEN AT THE KEYBOARD
http://www.jameswolcott.com/
Did they learn all that in Warsaw, in a last century war or perhaps in Ukraine. Can not say that the Germans were not good teachers, nor that they were not good students.
ck at 87 — I’ve been hearing a few rumblings of this other than Wittman. It looks like certain commentators and news outlets are doing their usual “everything is good news for the GOP, even if it’s the exact opposite of the last thing that we said was good for the GOP.” This round of Rovian “could be good news” is “debating treatment of detainees is another opportunity for Republicans to paint Democrats as weak.”
I’m not buying it. They’ll try to swiftboat us that way no matter what we do, and I doubt the congressional debate will make much of a difference there, and it opens up a lot of opportunity to point out how lawless the Republicans are, with the added bonus that we can say “the Supreme Court says so!”
hi, i am a regular over at the dnc blog and live across the way from conn. in columbia county ny. my great dream is to get rid of our evil congressman sweeney of stopping the vote in florida fame in 2000. but i give good phone bank and would be glad to help out with ned lamont if such support is needed. once lived in south kent but that was long ago without electricity in a little cabin in the woods…how does one find out about the phone banking?
I would love to get together with Jane and my fellow CT FDLers. I live in Danbury but would happily drive to New Haven, Hartford – where ever. Just let me know.
James Carville yesterday on CNN handled the “closeness” of the SCOTUS decision well — he just kept laughing about how such a “close decision” on the 2000 Election got us all into this mess — just who is the GOP to say that a 5 to 4 decision isn’t all that important?
gregg –
good on you. Ned Lamont can use all the help he can get.
http://nedlamont.com/blog
Is Sweeney’s Democratic opponent a viable candidate? If so, post diaries promoting them at MyDD and dKos — see if you can get some traction for them.
the rude pundit has advice for Dem. candidates and the Hamden decision:
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
(i always make sure i’m not eating anything when i read his blog).
Karen,
We’ve probably been at the same meetings at Molten Java – it’s a great place!
Jane, why don’t you come to Willimantic and march with N.O.W. members and Ned Lamont in Willi’s Boombox parade on Tuesday July 4? Here’s info on the parade http://www.wili.com/am/ . Ned Lamont will be interviewed by Wayne Norman on WILI 1400 AM on Monday, July 3 from 7-9 AM. Wayne Norman is the annual grand marshal of the Boombox parade and long time radio talk show host on WILI.
it’d be way cool for Jane to lead her Poodle Posse in the parade! kids would love them !
If this was noted in an earlier thread, apologies in advance.
This evening I heard Bush on NPR make a rude comment to Japanese Premier Koizumi at Graceland. Koizumi was making an effort to sign some Elvis songs and Bush snarked him. He said “I thought you were going to sing ‘Blue Suede Shoes’”.
Bush can’t even snark competently. “Blue Suede Shoes” is a great Carl Perkins song. There is no end to Bush’s ignorance.
Redshift at 6:50 pm –
If Congress doesn’t pass something that allows prosecution of the detainees, the GOP will run on the Soft on Terra issue the same way they bashed the Democrats with the Department of Homeland Security issue in 2002.
The Vichy Democrats will either roll over, or get killed for being obstructionist.
Our team needs to get out in front on this, and propose military courts martial that respect the Geneva Conventions and the American Constitution. It’s either that, or a Bush GOP Dictatorship.
Maybe Ned Lamont can take the lead? Show them how it’s done . . .
EEEWWW Jane, what is that floating in that drink? I guess I don’t get out much, or at least I don’t get out to where they’re serving cocktails much. On my monitor at least it looks…well, I edited myself for fear of offending.
Maybe you’re just trying to scare us off liquor? Or only non-cocktail drinkers like me feel this way? Oh well, I’m just squeamish.
ck – I share your frustration, and have been in a bit of a funk about it (and some other things) for much of the day.
What makes me a little crazy is the absence of the obvious questions and conclusions. The so-called pundits and the talking heads have gone so far as to state that the SC ruling is a yank on Bush’s collar. They avoid, however, the issue of his having overreached and cowboy’d over the Constitution, and have failed to ask whether there is value in the SC ruling. They are sinply assuming that the answer to the whole “problem” is to legally give Bush the power he thought he had.
And no one is asking why Congress or the courts or the American people should place any trust in an executive who so clearly is uninterested in being on anyone’s leash.
I do agree that Hamdan will be used like a club to beat more fear into the people; fear is about all the GOP has left in its little bag of tricks – well, that and fixing elections.
But why isn’t Congress taking a step back and absorbing the true import of the SC ruling? Why are they so eager to legislate us into the same kind of behavior we boasted about freeing the Iraqis from? And who really believes that Congress will be able to enact any legislation that does not have significant – and unintended – ramifications that they are too blind to see in their rush to serve the master?
Honest to God, I just would like the pundits to shut the hell up, and stop trying to drive the discussion and the argument where they think it should go. Maybe a lot of Americans wouldn’t know what to think or how to feel unless someone told them, but I’m not one of those people, and I am really weary of the arrogance of these “nattering nabobs.”
Enough rant for now -
Jane, You already have my email and made contact with Zen. We are at your disposal (I am in upstate NY this weekend assessing the flood damage at my Mom’s. Not too bad for her, bad for my brother. Water, however, is not potable out of the tap in most of the region….)
Steven Parrish, CPA #43
Sorry, I was out enjoying the the sunset.
For the first AUMF:
http://www.senate.gov/legislat….._107_1.htm
Scroll down to roll call 281 on Sept. 14, 2001. Click on S.J. Res. 23. Then text of legislation, then 3rd version. Thomas for some reason doesn’t let you link directly.
Larkspur 108 — I’ll definitely be at the parade. Are you hooked up with CT-NOW? I definitely want to get in touch with them.
ck, the woman running against sweeney is named kristen gillibrand and she is thought to have a pretty good shot at unseating him. there was a piece in the nytimes about a month ago to this effect and the cook report has it leaning to sweeney (which is not a stong position to be in when you are a multi-term incumbent ) by 3 which i think is a percentage spread but i am not sure….sweeney is such a dick it would astound you….well then you are dealing with the guy who licked cheney’s boots in the debate in 2000 and is french kissing bush so maybe not…anyhow here is gillibrand’s site and she has been discussed over at kos though i will check with mydd:
http://www.gillibrand2006.com/
as the Grand Panjamdrum of FDL, Jane can see your given Email address … no need to post them
Also if anyone is interested the text of the 1973 War Powers Resolution, it is at:
http://www.policyalmanac.org/w…..tion.shtml
DAB,
You know, I’ve ever been to a meeting there! Maybe I’m not on the right mailing list?
Karen
i will repeat my wish here in case tinkerbell resides at this site and not the ones i frequent….the supreme court (which is taking the suit by northeastern states and others to force the epa to declare co2 a pollutant and regulate it—a major change in how things are done { or not done } in this country to get in front of the global warming problem ) ends up with alito, scalia, roberts and thomas against but with the four moderates for and kennedy decides he doesn’t want to go down as the guy who thought evolution was what an old garrard turn table does and that the earth melting is a good idea, casts the tie breaker forcing the epa to get busy and bush and his oil worshiping blood sucking leaches to shut the f_ _ _ up.
*ilson –
If Jane is Grand Panjamdrum of FDL, are you the Grand PooBah?
clap, clap, clap @ gregg
ck: Bah Humbug is more like it !
Have recently discovered FDL, and it’s already one of my favorite places on the web. Jane, I was awestruck that anyone would even contemplate driving that far with dogs! Mine start to whine after 10 minutes. .
I am in Lamont country (Fairfield County) and would also love to get together. Why not just make it in New Haven. .both I-95 and 91 come together there. . .the place in Bethel does sound appealing. .but not sure how easy it is to get to. . . ..
Jane, I sure hope you have the chance to meet my good friend Maura while you’re in CT. She is an absolute precinct operations genius.
kristen gillibrand and she is thought to have a pretty good shot at unseating him
Kristen is an excellent candidate and I think she has an EXCELLENT shot.
The official egregious campaign platform.
Domestic: the Constitution
Foreign: Geneva Conventions
It’s Kirsten Gillibrand.
What can I say? I love the original topic, books. I had a rare & used bookstore for seven years and I’ve published books for friends. Some sorta political and some satrical some philosphical and some beautiful, but all funny. As I read my way through the comments this evening I was struck by the diversity of style, the interjections and declarations and asides but was truely touched by the humanity I find here. I post at Dkos and was sucked into the Dean thing big time. I love it but like the fellow mentioned above it has a certain effect on me. At the pub they say “don’t get him started.” when I bring up the current trageies. It is then that I try to make them laugh a bit at it all. We only get to be us once and the happier we can make ourselves and each other the better we will be.
Tomorrow I leave for ten days at the Oregon Country Fair, the over forty year old gathering of the tribe in Oregon. It actually starts next weekend but this year I’m going with a friend who is on the crew that prepares the site for the Fair. It is the site of an old native village on the Long Tom River that runs by Eugene. The Fair owns the property and treats it like the mother it is. Next weekend it will become the third largest city in Oregon. It is totally self sufficent, environmentally nurturing and gives back more than it takes. That is what I do to get off the net and away from television and newspapers and cars. It helps a lot. Of course the funny thing is that the Fair is totally WiFi this year. My old orange iBook’s batteries are shot, and I don’t know how to make the WiFi that it says it has work, but I bet I will find someone there with a lap top that will let me delete my spam. Amy Goodwin from Democracy Now! will be there along with Winnoa LaDuke and lots of folks talking not about what a mess things are but what we can do to make it better and make the kids laugh at the same time. So, like I said I like books and if anyone does get a chance to turn one of ‘our’ books so it shows the cover, do it!
Jane, I have a dear friend in Bethehem that I met at DemocraticUnderground. She is a graphic designer and computer wizard and you should know her, IMHO. My e-mail address appears above so I think you can get in touch.
Be gentle with yourself.
Egregious, I am so down with that platform
So are 98% of this country’s military (the other 2% are prosletizing for the end-of-times battle.)
Margot, Grover Norquist is also in favor of making veteran’s benefits toast. But I’m sure he’s down with SUV magnets.
And that is a topic that deserves research and organization. Right now, I can google on norquist_veterans and see where the scoundrel is coming from. But it would be better to have all the damning evidence organized. That was the inspiration behind my various geocities pages (I don’t have a blog in this fight!), but the effort hasn’t quite matched the goal.
Yet!
upper left edge -
have a great time at the Country Fair! hope the skies smile on you…
OT – if you know my friend Joe Keating* I hope you give him a big hug – he’s a great person and this was a tough year for him (a fire took his close friend and Joe’s home). Joe’s a Fair stalwart, too…
blessings….
(*Green party candidate for Gov. in OR – Joe knows lots of peeps….)
I hesitate to suggest that anyone go to Slate.com but there is a terrific series of exchanges, fourteen of them, between Dahlia Lithwick and Walter Dellinger on the significance of the Hamdam case yesterday. If time is short, just read the last entry, by Dellinger. He ranks Hamdam up there with the Nixon Tapes and the Truman Steel Seizure Cases as the most important cases ever on the presidents Article II power, giving Hamdam primacy.
http://www.slate.com/id/2144476/
Imm in the house!
Hope the flooding isn’t too bad for your relatives. Keep us posted.
My father was a life long democrat until Reagan, then he became one of them. He became a fan of Rush, and while I was his caretaker, it would drive me crazy the two radios blasting Rush everyday.
I often wondered why the Democrats never had the same mechanisms that the right did with media. I’m happy to see that changing. I’ve often said that it’s a good thing the internet came into existence when it did. Could you imagine what it would be like without it, and we had to rely on the traditional media outlets for the news?
It’s heartening to see how the progressive moment has embraced the internet, and are taking the lead with the dissemination of the truth. Video may have killed the radio star, however, the progressive web community is going the slay the ugly beast that calls itself the established political process.
Frustrated with the dial-up, evryone safe and little Imm is exhausted.
Me too and I am off to bed, but I am so sorry to miss all the Hamden fun today. I agree with AurthurKC — Dellinger has some good comments…. I really will try to do a comment about exeutive/prosecutorial discretion and congressional lawmaking if I can get my brother’s basement cleaned up in the morning.
Peace out, firepoodles.
Imm -
Glad to know I’m not the only one dealing with dialup . . .
Peace, indeed!
Back to Prayer in schools
My parents, who were schooled in Nebraska in the 20’s were always puzzled by the prayer in school controversy. There was no prayer in public schools in rural Nebraska then. My father used to say that his mother would have been very upset if Miss Mahoney had tried to teach him how to pray. Grandma was a serious Methodist & didn’t have any truck with Catholic prayer. In any case, teaching her children how to pray was a parent’s job, not the school’s.
Both my parents had that attitude. When I was in elementary school in the 60’s (when the prayer in school ruling came down) it had no effect because we didn’t have prayer in the school. The attitude was “That was the parent’s job, not the school’s”
Furthermore, most of the school board members I talked to later (in the 70’s) didn’t want anything to do with religion, it just seemed to them like a way to start fights between teachers, parents & the school board, better to just keep school to secular things & let the parents deal with religion.
Now that I live in the South, it’s a BIG DEAL. Personally, I’d like to make all of them listen to my mother (who is very religious) and if I could bring them back from the dead my father & grand-mother who were very articulate on their faith & why they didn’t want the schools getting involved in it.
Ed*ard Teller #85
One of the reasons that the Israelis are so eager to push a unilateral solution is that they know that the demographics are against them. It is,however, a non starter. While everyone talks about a two state solution, the demographics increasingly favor a single state. But Israel still has not given up its desires of mini empire. So rather then cut their losses and opt for the two state solution immediately, they continue to follow the doomed Sharon plan of a 1 1/2 state solution: Israel and a non viable, dependent Palestinian state, a bantustan if you will. This didn’t work in South Africa and it will not work here. As I said, it is a non starter. A failed state on their doorstep in place of the occupied territories will delay but not escape an eventual single state.
To put it simply, the Israelis are in denial. They are still pursuing a chimera of victory as if going into Gaza one more time and shooting it up will somehow put the seal on the deal. But the reality is that it is a waste of time, limited time within which Israel can move to establish two viable states in Israel-Palestine; otherwise the logic of the demographics and the pressure of an expanding Arab population will choose for them. Israel plus a concentration camp or whatever it will be called for the Arabs is not an option.
Jane, i’m outside of Boston but will happily drive to New Haven. I’m dying for some of that pizza previously described. Send an email and i’m there.
Here’s some positive news. I live in a conservative part of PA and the local paper publishes readers’ letters once a week. Usually, the wingnuts write poor versions of Rush’s latest ‘pearls’. Sometimes I’ll answer to them with facts and calm writing and then I’ll get attacked and we’ll go at it for a few weeks untill they run out of venom. Little by little other thinking people joined and started writing.
The most amusing thing is that is mostly women on the progressive side. I do feel a certain change in the air.
We have a terrible representative in Congress, Don Sherwood, and I honsetly think that my candidate, Chris Carney has a very good chance of winning.
If we stay focused and counter the avalanche of lies that’s coming between now and Novemeber, we’ll see more Democarts in the house.
didn’t realize my cyber mom would find me hiding out under this waterfall in kent falls state park…guess i can take off the fake nose and mustache.
upper left is the tribe that does the great sounding fair up in oregon the same one i ran into on haight street in 67?
in many places, public schools were set up despite the influence of schools set up by religious denominations (notably Catholics) — public schools were seen by many as a way to escape pernicious religious prosletizing …
Jane says:
(Note: I’m in Connecticut and would like to organize some sort of get-together for readers. If you’d like to join us let me know in the comments.)
Rhode Island is veryclose to Connecticut. (hint, hint, hint, hint)
BTW if anyone wants to know what Fitzgerald has been up to, today he sent a letter saying that the office of Governor Rod R. Blagojevich of Illinois was under investigation for fraudulent hiring practices, i.e. political patronage.
Alice at 126 — I know Maura reads FDL at least some of the time (’cause she emailed me about one of my comments.) Maura, I hope you’re reading this thread and can get hooked up with the firepups!
Jane -
Please let me know about any get togethers while you’e in CT.
I’d love to join you.
ST
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07…..nted=print
good article !
I have to say that I have always liked to buy books by liberal writers: the thing that is different now is that there are so many more to choose from, and the quality seems to be so much better. Much of this, of course, is a credit to the folks like Jen Nix who have gone out and solicited books, and worked to edit them, or find editors, and pushed them into print. *Great* job Jen! (And if you are the same Jenny Nix with whom I used to drink liberally fifteen or so years ago in Pittsburgh, let me say “way to make a great success of yourself, dear!”)
Jane: do give serious thought to the cookbook idea that came up last weekend: if done well it could be a great way to introduce little subversive thoughts into the minds of househusbands stuck at home in the kitchen:-)
And it would give me another liberal book to buy;-)
Last minute, on the general theme of “support your local liberal” (politician division) – as I’m sure most of us here know, today is the deadline for this quarter’s campaign funding reporting, which of course affects further donations from organizations.
Luckily, it’s payday for me and I got some overtime, so I squeezed out a total of 30.01 for 3 candidates, including my own Dem
-to-rid-Texas-of-Lamar-Smith, John Courage.
Books are my weakness, so I have to restrain myself from spending too much on liberal books. Broke down and bought Ron Suskind’s new book…the first page is enough to blow you away. Not bedtime reading — the rage keeps me awake.
Anyway, there’s an hour and a half left of June 30th here in Central time zone. G’nite – gotta work in the morning. Have fun in the nutmeg state, Jane, poodles, and other Firepups!
“When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes” – Erasmus. (…and donate to Fighting Dems)
Prof – great job at Kos. I just came in an hour ago and I have been trying to play ketchup on links and threads – its overwhelming. But I loved your Kos and title. Kudos
Imman – I’m sorry for your brother but if your mom doesn’t have much trouble it is probably worth it for her to get the visit. Jane is bringing some kind of synchronicity to the east coast. I’m hoping the country doesn’t lee as more and more FDLers end up near CT. *g*
Hugh 40- I agree on the limitations of the AUMF. The problems re: the AUMF arose from Hamdi (not -dan) where Justice O’Connor really didn’t want to say Gov had broken the law (US Habeas statute) when they brought Hamdi(a US citizen) here to the US and then held him w/o habeas (in violation of the US habeas act). So she structured a “temporary override” of the Habeas act, a Congressional statute, by bootstrapping from the AUMF – as another, more recent, congressional statute, and even though it was only a plurality of 4 on that issue – Gov took the crack in the door and claimed over and over that AUMF superceded Congressional statutes and granted the PResident additional powers.
While it was dubious with Hamdi (depite Gonzales mentioning it a bazillion times before the Judiciary committee), the weird AUMF = authorization to override Congressional statutes is now, after HamdAN, pretty much toast. Even Scalia didn’t buy it in Hamdi, and now that Bryer and Kennedy have jumped ship — bye bye AYOOMF as a rationale for Presidential excess.
Couldn’t be happier to see it go.
FYI Jane; If the pups are up for it, the Fireworks in Rowayton, Connecticut (viewed from Bayley Beach) on July 2nd ought to be a lovely sight if the weather cooperates…
I agree that New Haven would be a great place to meet: How about Rudy’s for belgian frites and beer?
naschkatze if you’re still around, I just got back in and caught up to your earlier remark. I see now where the two plurality decisions undercut Bush from using the Detainee Treatment Act to justify his behind. So if the court didn’t exactly throw it out, they sure put a boundary around what it can lawfully be used to do.
(Hope this gets in sometime this evening—my connection has a severe case of the slows today.)
new thread — http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-167625
OT – Prof, I did go over and read your diary. There were just under 400 comments when I visited. The ‘bullshit’ commenter was a bit over the top — per usual. I read and reread your diary, and then tried to find his true objection, which I did come across rather long after his ‘bullshit’ comment, and found it lacking a bit.
Quite a ‘first’ diary for you Prof. Very interesting. I left a comment and recommended just to counter the advice to unrecommend. I surely like to do what I am told not to.
Enzymer 139, That about sums up my parents’ feelings on prayer in school. It would have started a lot of fights back then in my childhood.
No one ever stopped me from saying a silent prayer before a math test.
Prof: rec’d your diary at dK. Spot on.
-
Ayoomf would be a kewl band name, eh?
-
Tonight I’m recalling that this was usually the weekend we’d drive to the Cape for the summer, up the Merritt Parkway through Connecticut. Envying Jane her Connecticut summer.
-
Is anyone else struggling with the reality that 2006 is half over today? I sure am.
=========
Had Enough?
=========
I spy new thread.
Jane,
I would enjoy meeting like-minded FDL readers. FDL is one of the very best sites around. I live close to Boston but have been following Lamont closely. GO NED!
I’m very tempted to trek down there.
DAB,
You know, I’ve ever been to a meeting there! Maybe I’m not on the right mailing list?
Karen
**********
Karen,
It’s a big MoveOn meeting place. First “happening” I attended there was the “conference” call after the premier of Farenheit 911.
There are usually signup sheets for various groups, events, etc. – if you’re so inclined.
I admire the clarity in Jane’s writing, as for myself I seem to be always in some ones snark sights when I post; often amazed by what people come back thinking they think what I thunk… see the problem.
loved the cross country traveling post and photo’s.
I grew up in Pitt. the experience seemed so Pittsburgh.
Jane, I’m due for a visit in Conn. From N.Y., yes I promise to behave.
Just stopping by to say hi to MommyBrain. Hope you made it home without too much trouble. I’m enjoying poking around FDL – thanks for letting me know about it!
that is so ugly
Rayne – I hope the migraine lets up and soon. They are about the worst things I can think of – oooms.
John C – thanks for the heads up. I’m going to try to remember to watch that.
If I get extra typo ridden, I’ve got the Reisling out.
Hamdan – 2004/2005 Sucked for Bush’s Legal Theories – Will Combatant Status Review Tribunals Make it allOK?
**Let’s just get this out of the way right up front. If after all this time there is someone at GITMO that Congress feels absolutely has to be tried immediately – they don’t need any legislation whatsoever. They can have a courts-martial proceeding and there you go. There is also nothing in THIS ruling (possibly sadly) that has anything to do with continuing to hold detainees during the “conflict” (although the court may be focusing on Afghanistan and not the more amorphous GWOT). So Dems,breath in, breath out.
Now back to the story. As we hit 2004 and 2005, the militarization of the response to al-Qaeda and the failure to adopt sound procedures and rules were combining to show strain.
Abu Ghraib scandals hit and people began to wonder about what, exactly, we accomplished in the WOT by stacking people in naked pyramids. Ghost detainees were being mentioned out loud. Adequate Addington’s theories on escaping US Court’s jurisdiction by using GITMO was put to the test in Rasul v. Bush and he lost. The Court decided its habeas powers DID extend to detainees in military custody in Guantanamo pursuant to 28 USC 2241 (ooops)
Rendition was becoming known. Italy was protesting kidnapings from Italy by the CIA. European police forces were questioning flights using local landing strips. The President was engaging in programs that went beyond the pale, not just with respect to non-citizens, but also with respect to US citizens. Padilla and Hamdi, both US citizens, were being held in military detention with secret interrogations and denied trials and access to counsel.
HamdAN was also in the pipeline. Some plainly inappropriately detained people, like the Chinese Uighars, were having their cases taken to court. European allies, who were still addressing terrorism as primarily a criminal matter and who, after WWII experiences, had decided opinions on military detentions, were rumbling. Torture memos and enemy combatant memos saw the light of day (for what good they did). Canada “found out” about its citizen we kidnaped and sent to Syria for torture. Germany found out about its citizen we kidnapped and sent for torture. Political allies in Europe were under pressure from their citizens and the European union organizations.
Plus there were some pesky law students from Seton Hall who wanted to do a study and actually compile the categories of detainees. Despite hundreds of billions spent in Iraq and years of detention for many of the GITMO detainees – no one with DOD had bothered to do this.
In an effort to allay the tide, without admitting any prior failures or ineptitudes, and claim some form of adherence to the GEneva Conventions, the administration decided to institute Combatant Status Review Tribunals (CSRTs) Article 5 of the Genva Conventions
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
Hi Truckee! Glad you stopped by. I knew you’d like it here. Lots to see and do. Check out some of the posts around last Thursday to see what the community can be.
Mary
Thank you for your answer to my earlier question. Now I’m going to read your new comment.
i support local leader liberal leaning aaron dixon, green party challenger to washington senator, maria cantwell.
please pass it on. mahalo!
just say grow!
firstly, jane, what the hell is floating in your martini? (i don’t really want to know)…
as to the complete lack of support by the lefty organs for glenn’s wonderful book, i wrote an editorial two years ago about moveon’s hubris in promoting their own products to the detriment of other lefty merchandise.
i have since re-incorporated it into a further condemnation of the snubbing of glenn over at skippy.
Hi, Jane –
Definitely interested in any kind of gathering…I’m in West Haven…hope you got to see the fireworks tonight..we’re just minutes away from New Haven. It’s an honor to have you here and welcome again!
Hamdan – CSRTs Aren’t Working,PR Still Bad, Legal Theories Still Suck, Addington Isn’t SO Adequate After All – LINDSEY TO THE RESCUE
The CSRTs were a joke and neither the Europeans nor the lawyers watching were impressed. The “competent tribunals” seemed established to rubber stamp, with detainees not being entitled to counsel. They were not entitled to attend their own tribunal hearings on status unless they signed, without benefit of counsel or adequate translations, documents waiving rights. The evidence and charges against them could be kept secret and often was. Evidence obtained from torture, coercion, etc. could be used. All while, back at home, torture was coming under fire from conservatives.
That is weird to even type – in America we have to wait for torture to “come under fire” ?
Anyway. The CSRTs weren’t working well. The District Courts in DC were not being kind to the Admin, although the ever more packed DC Cir was cooperating more. In all of this – Hamdan. Hamdan, allegedly bin Laden’s driver and bodyguard, is told in Dec. 2003 that he is going to be facing one of military commissions Bush authorized. He has a lawyer appointed and that lawyer immediately demands charges and speedy trial.
Charges were not tendered until AFTER Hamdan’s laywer filed suit in Dist. Court in July 2004. The Dist Ct (after a transfer between cts for jurisdiction purposes) rules in Nov. of 2004 several things. The Court says the President’s ability to establish commissions is limited by the laws of war, which include the Geneva Conventions. Also, that Hamdan is entitled to ALL the protections of the Conventions until he is found to NOT be a prisoner of war (the Article 5 issue) in a proceedings that complies with the Conventions (the CSRTs not being particularl impressive on that front). Finally, that even if Hamdan is not eligible for POW treatment and protections under the Conventions, he is still covered by common article 3 and that the military commissions have to meet common article 3 of the Conventions and also that the commissions need to comply with the UCMJ and do not.
Meanwhile, McCain gets to work on anti-torture legislation. Knowing that Cheney and Addington were responsible for assurances that the torture and Geneva Conventions violations that they requisitioned from the CIA, it becomes a little more understandable that Cheney pushed back on this legislation. Knowing that they also foisted these positions off on an military that had substantial resistence at the top levels of legal counsel (although some worms too) it crystalizes.
Anything that concedes torture ‘just ain’t right’ opens the door, as Cheney, Gonzale, Yoo, Addington and the cabal know, for their footsoldiers to be charged with violations of the conventions under the war crimes act. Some of those “footsoldiers” whether CIA, military (or as we now know, NSA, treasury, etc.) are not going to be happy with Addington and Cheney if their butts end up on the line for Addington’s mistakes.
Graham isn’t stupid and also sees how big a hole the Administration is digging. So he and Kyl go to bat for the torture guys. The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, DTA, ends up doing a lot of things not directly related to torture at all. Including taking actions to legislatively overturn Rasul, disenfranchising judicial review per Hamdan, trying to get Bush to clean up his CSRTs and military commissions act without flat out calling him on them, and Graham and Kyl, at least, go so far as to sneakily try to make the legislation retroactive, including a nice little charade to pad the legislative record.
So the DTA provides that people in custody of the DOD can only be interrogated in accordance with the United States Army Field Manual. We all know where this is going. The President has his signing statement approach, the Field Manual almost became partly “classified” as they tried to sneak in tactics that are prohibited, and they have still been going back and forth on this. IMO – now is the time for someone to put an end to that dance. If Pace does not,after the Court’s ruling that the laws of war include the Geneva Conventions and Common Article 3 applies across the board, lay down the law on the field manual’s compliance, he is a worthless leader. Playing political games with the field manual, when the soldiers in the field could very well be looking at war crimes charges bc you wanted to be Kewl with the Pres and back him on his: I am above the law – stance – that is beyond irresponsible. This is one area where Congress should apply pressure now, IMO.
The DTA then goes on to prohibit cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment for people in DOD custody (again with the signing statement, again with the kabuki, and is Sen Graham hailing the new opinion as providing support for Congress’s ability to prevent torture, over the signing statement? I missed that part.
Next the DTA tries to almost grant amnesty of a sorts to interroagtors who may have been doing bad things, but only bc they had a good faith belief in the Attorney Gen. and DOJ and President when they all assured them that the President is above the law and can authorize anything and Geneva Conventions don’t apply.
Then it goes on to both address some of what seemed to be going on at GITMO (yeah) and also to revoke Rasul (boo). The DTA requires the Sec of Def to start giving reports on the CSRTs to Congress, and that a civilian officer, required to be appointed by the President after advice and consent, be the final review for the CSRTs (taking it out of military chain). They don’t prohibit use of statements made under coercion, but give them an extra heads up, and they do say that the CSRTs should remain open for re-determinations based on new evidence.
Then they dismantle Rasul in 1005(e)(1) by stating that, for Gitmo, no “court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider” applications for habeas, or other actions against the US if filed by or on behalf of someone detained at GITMO who has been properly detained as an enemy combatant in accordance with the DTA.
In 1005 (e)(2) and (3) they deal with review of CSRTs (in 2) and “final decisions of military commissions” (in 3). They basically provide ‘hands off’ by the courts until each of those determinations is made, but that each determination may be appealed to the DC Court of Appeals on limited grounds, except that for military commission determinations, if the sentence received is less than 10 years, the detainee has no appeal to the Circuit Court, except at the Circuit Court’s discretion.
So there were a couple of questions. One is – can the Congress strip jurisdiction for habeas review entirely – since the writ is mentioned in the Constitution. The Hamdan court did not end up having to reach that question, bc it held that on the case before it, Hamdan, the case was already pending when the DTA was passed and while the DTA provides that for sections (2) and (3) (CSRTs and final decisions made under the DTA procedures) to apply to cases pending when the DTA is enacted (1005-h), paragraph (1) is not mentioned in that prohibition. It was clear that Levin and others thought this was how it was supposed to work – that pending cases would get review and only new cases would be funneled into the final decisions- DC Cir Ct review -pipeline. Graham and Kyl, however, put a “floor exchange” into the official record that never took place to make it seem as if it had been intended that paragraph 1 also apply to pending cases.
Scalia had never really liked the Rasul opinion anyway, so when it was dismantled he was happy to read the statute as tossing paragraph 1 in with paragraphs 2 and 3, even though 1005 (h) ONLY says 2 and 3 apply to pending cases, not 1. Alito and Thomas join him – this was a grounds for Roberts in the Circuit Court as well.
In addition, paragraphs 2 and 3 provide an interesting reservation. They limit the Circuit Court to only reviewing whether the CSRT determination, or the final decision, were consistent with the standards and procedures adopted by the Sec of Defense AND whether those standards are consistent with the “Constitution and laws of the United States”
IOW, they are pretty much not endorsing the President’s approach to the commissions and CSRTs, they ASK the Court to tell them – hey, is what he’s doing ok under the Conventions and Constitution and stuff?
Well, now they know. *g*
The Supreme Court has said that the military commissions (and it would seem the CSRTs too – although they were not before it) need to be run under rules of courts-martial unless there is a specific showing of impracticabiity in order to meet the UCMJ. In addition, those kinds of rules are needed under the Geneva Convention Common Article 3, which the Court is saying does apply to all detainees, in order for the commissions or tribunals to meet the Convention’s requirements that judgements be prounounced by a “regularly constituted” court with “all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensible by civilized peoples”
Now while there is a majority on the general concept and language, only Stevens and 3 other justices, for a plurality, state that there are certain specific due process requirements that would be needed to meet that Geneva Convention standard (accused’s ability to be present at trial and privy to evidence against him) absent disruptive conduct, etc.
Mary 171 – I saw that and for a moment thought I typed it. LOL. The more, the Mary-er.
whitney, 44. yah, blogs are what they are and so is my garden. politics is what i think about after lunch or dinner. gardening is what i think about during breakfast. as in, food will get us through times of no politics
better than politics will get us through times of no food.
is that the same as;
peace will get us through time of no war
better than war will get us through time of no lunch…..
Hamdan – detainees, Hamdan – Presidential powers in other areas
1. Signing Statements.
Bush put this signing statement with the DTA:
“The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act, relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power, which will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President, evidenced in Title X, of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.”
That was a part of the DTA reviewed by the COurt in Hamdan. Notice how much attention and effect they gave it? Especially the “and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power” part? Scalia, joined by Alito and Thomas, poke at this with a sharp pointy stick, but the majority seems to have already killed it dead. It wasn’t “part” of the legislation and got less respect than the soon to be famous Graham-Kyl Gift Exchange.
Addington, Alito, Yoo, Gonzales – meet the Court’s opinion of signing statements.
2. Comity. Getting less comitous. I didn’t mention it, but one of arguments Gov made was that it was “inviting the court to decline” exercise of jurisdiction pending the final outcome of those decisions (wait and see how badly we crash instead of telling us the brakes are busted, headlights not working, muffler is dragging, and a tire is flat NOW). The court has done this in the past (the Councilman case gets most attention) but it doesn’t have to do it – it just does it to be nice. But it’s not as happy to be nice when the Executive is torturing folks and saying nanner nanner nanner.
3. Geneva Conventions. There is the issue that was there, and the issue that they didn’t really address but that may be equally affected. What they did address– Common article 3 does apply to pretty much anyone DOD has scooped up (there may still be a few questionable categories, but you have to get creative to dream them up). This article requires regularly constituted courts with civilized standards. A plurality is pretty sure those standards include being able to be at the trial and be privy to the evidence used against you – Kennedy is more case by case on that, and sees enough other problems to kick the commissions without having to address that issue.
Another issue becomes – what about all the CSRTs? The DTA also allows the DC Cir Ct to review CSRT determinations to see if they complied laws and Constituion and stuff. The Supreme Court didn’t touch on CSRTs (presumably Hamdan isn’t challenging his CSRT determination?), and it is Article 5 of the Geneva conventions, not common article 3, that would come into play, but the underlying issues as to the “tribunals” for the CSRTs and the “commissions” for the charges, appear to be the same and also – the CSRTs tribunals seem to also be requiried, under the Court’s reasoning for the UCMJ,to meet courts- martial standards unless there is a showing of why it is impracticable – they don’t right now and there don’t seem to be good reasons to disallow assistance of counsel, participation,etc.
Congress should take this ruling and run with it to require a new round of CSRTs run in accordance with UCMJ and COnventions standards. COngress also needs to sit down and discuss and consider the two Seton Hall studies to figure out who they actually have at GITMO and make some recommendations to the Executive for what to do with the mistakes. For the non-mistakes, commissions that comply need to be established. There is really no reason to do them as anything other than courts-martial. Secret and sensitive information can be handled with that procedure just as it is in regular courts. Special rules and rulings may be needed in some cases, but we need to make sure that there is someone TRULY independent to make those determinations.
4. UCMJ. Neuro – I think that to get around the ruling, Congress would have to revise the UCMJ and also disavow portions of the Geneva Conventions. Dems who buy into that are idiots. Or, they can just have courts- martial. What is so wrong with that – Dems need to ask the President and Republicans why they are afraid of Military courts- martial to review their handiwork. That’s an ez talking point response IMO.
5. AYooMF as Grounds to Override Congressional Statutes – bye bye. Even Scalia doesn’t buy that argument. Kennedy and Breyer went along with the AUMF argument in Hamdi, but that stretched them about as far as they seem willing to go – and there it was only a ‘temporary’ stretch. There were 4 votes against the AyooMF being able to override statute before Breyer and Kennedy swapped over here in Hamdan – it’s gone as an argument for all practical intents and purposes. That means for things like overriding FISA as well. How many times did Gonzales mention the AUMF and Hamdi when he was questioned? How would you feel as an NSA employee now, counting up the felonies under FISA? Isn’t it time some people got their act together and began to dig in and fix this – get truthful, accurate info to COngress, have COngress do whatever needs to be done to fix the program to bring it under supervision (but not until they have accurate info) and some heads need to roll. Cheney, Gonzales and Addington – along with Rumsfeld, all come to mind. This, of course, will happen when Democrats finish the scavenger hunt for their spines.
6. Inherent Presidential powers. See signing statements. Notice how Congressional statutes were not allowed to be disregarded. Think how that rationale applies when it is AMerican Citizens on AMerican soil being subjected to illegal activity — instead of possible al-Qaeda guys in GITMO. Inherent power to do away with the 4th amendment – with FISA – with wiretap and privacy statutes? All with no warrant? I’d say that got very very very shakey. Now watch Specter fashion legislation to give all the lawbreakers an ollie ollie oxen free WITHOUT good oversight or good information ever being received and Bush grab for it to keep from having another round of knock downs. Dems will predictably cave, not require real information before passing legislation, not require real oversight, then collect their paychecks.
7. Secrets secrets secrets. That’s still up for grabs. What amount of deference will the “it’s a secret” cases receive? For wiretaps? For kidnap and torture – rendition? For illegal govt activity? What’s left in the comity bag? This is the one trick pony left and he is being worn down.
I’m in Trumbull, and would like to get together. Jane, I’ve already sent you an e-mail about Lorenzo (hope you got it, which should have my e-mail.
http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/sh…..aryId=1724
Jane Hamsher — Larkspur 108 %u2014 I’ll definitely be at the parade. Are you hooked up with CT-NOW? I definitely want to get in touch with them.
Yes, I’m a board member of CT NOW and I helped with the endorsement of Ned Lamont.
So many books, so little time to read. I have stacks of current political books still largely unread except for portions here & there. Each day reveals new shenanigans by this administration so I’m on the internet getting all the latest details. I said to someone (loaded with one-liners) that someday when this country gets back on a sane course, maybe I could finally read some fiction which I haven’t done for at least 2 years. He said if I wanted to read fiction to pick up “The Accomplishments of George W Bush”. Sadly, I’m sure there will be plenty of people rewriting history.
Kudos to Mary for the analysis…. scavenger hunt indeed.
Jane: I am a weekender in CT, driving from Boston. Would be happy to join up if the time is right.
Jane, I’m in the New Haven Area and I like the idea of a get together. In terms of place I am hopelesslessly Shoreline/New Haven downtown, but I guess I’m open.
Why is there a dog turd in that drink?
Hello Jane:
I’m in northwestern CT not far from the Massachusetts border (pretty much due north of Bridgeport), and I’d entirely enjoy meeting up with you, et. al., if at all possible (unfortunately I have some restrictions on how long I can comfortably be behind a steering wheel). Can I meet the dogs, too? I am fully canine-besotted…
From my pack to yours, welcome to CT!
Made it! Drove all night from Indiana and arrived in Nedmentum land this morning at about 9:30. Let me know what your schedule is. And what is that drink?
hey jane, i’m in NJ, but i’d drive up to Conn for a meet-up with fellow FDLers. please let us know if/when it’ll take place.ASAP!
linda grice/juslin