
Peter Baker and Michael Abromovitz have a great article in the WaPo this morning regarding the Hamdan decision and its implications for the Bush Administration.
For five years, President Bush waged war as he saw fit. If intelligence officers needed to eavesdrop on overseas telephone calls without warrants, he authorized it. If the military wanted to hold terrorism suspects without trial, he let it.Now the Supreme Court has struck at the core of his presidency and dismissed the notion that the president alone can determine how to defend the country. In rejecting Bush's military tribunals for terrorism suspects, the high court ruled that even a wartime commander in chief must govern within constitutional confines significantly tighter than this president has believed appropriate.
For many in Washington, the decision echoed not simply as a matter of law but as a rebuke of a governing philosophy of a leader who at repeated turns has operated on the principle that it is better to act than to ask permission. This ethos is why many supporters find Bush an inspiring leader, and why many critics in this country and abroad react so viscerally against him.
The article quotes Lindsey "Huckleberry" Graham (in full-on "I'm not a partisan, just a good American lawyer" mode) as saying that after the Hamdan decision, there can be no argument that the rule of law and the separation of powers issues are important -- essentially rebuffing the unitary executive theories of Dick Cheney, David Addington and crew.
"There is a strain of legal reasoning in this administration that believes in a time of war the other two branches have a diminished role or no role," Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), who has resisted the administration's philosophy, said in an interview. "It's sincere, it's heartfelt, but after today, it's wrong."
I'll believe Graham means it when the Judiciary Committee hearings on Guantanamo occur and he doesn't try to shiv all the Democrats on the Committee with his Hayseed and Brimstone act.
The article provides a pretty good snapshot on why the GOP rolled out Kate O'Beirne on Hardball yesterday to start spewing talking points about the SCOTUS and the Democrats wanting to unleash terrorists on the world -- it's because no one is buying it any longer, and because the SCOTUS had the balls to call Bushie's bluff that the WH is now in panic pushback mode. The Administration is, of course, taking the "hands off" approach to testing the criticism waters, putting the President out to make innocuous statements about respecting the Court, all the while GOP surrogates hit the airwaves vilifying Justice Stevens' opinion and anyone who would dare step out and criticize the President's policies.
But the SCOTUS has pulled the curtain back with this opinion, and has shown the shoddy legal reasoning of the Administration for what it is -- a hollow prop used to justify egregious power grabs and actions in the name of this nation that no one outside a time of immediate, desperate fear and threat would ever condone. And once that curtain is pulled back...well, you can't make the snake oil salesman look like the Great and Powerful Oz any longer, can you?
Bruce Fein, an official in the Reagan administration, said the ruling restores balance in government. "What this decision says is, 'No, Mr. President, you can be bound by treaties and statutes,' " he said. " 'If you need to have these changed, you can go to Congress.' This idea of a coronated president instead of an inaugurated president has been dealt a sharp rebuke."...As described by the New Yorker this week, the executive order establishing military commissions was issued without consultations with then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell or then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice after a concerted push by Cheney's legal adviser, David S. Addington, now his chief of staff.
"Rather than push so many extreme arguments about the president's commander-in-chief powers, the Bush administration would have been better served to work something out with Congress sooner rather than later -- I mean 2002, rather than 2006," said A. John Radsan, a former CIA lawyer who now teaches at William Mitchell College of Law.
The administration relied on the same expansive view of its power in detaining U.S. citizens indefinitely as enemy combatants, denying prisoners access to lawyers or courts, rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Conventions in some instances, employing harsh interrogation techniques and establishing secret CIA prisons for terrorism suspects in foreign countries. Only its telephone and e-mail surveillance program, which is operated by the National Security Agency, stirred much protest in Congress.
The administration often fended off criticism by arguing that the commander in chief should not be second-guessed. "The Bush administration has been very successful in defining the debate as one of patriotism or cowardice," said Andrew Rudalevige, author of "The New Imperial Presidency" and a Dickinson College professor. "And this is not about that. This is about whether in fighting the war we're true to our constitutional values."
In some ways, the ruling replicates a pattern in American history where presidents have acted aggressively in wartime, only to be reined in by courts or Congress. Even some Bush supporters said yesterday that it may be appropriate now to revisit decisions made ad hoc in a crisis atmosphere, when a president's natural instinct is to do whatever he thinks necessary to guard the nation against attack.
"That's what presidents do, and I say thank goodness for that," said George J. Terwilliger III, deputy attorney general under President George H.W. Bush. "But once you get past that point . . . both as a matter of law and a matter of culture, a more systemic approach to the use of authority is appropriate."
There are some questions that need to be raised about the Bush Presidency, beginning with one as to why George Bush continually allows Dick Cheney, David Addington and the neocon cabal to do his thinking for him or, if he's not doing so, why is he continually shutting out contrarian opinions when they matter most?
Hamdan has opened to door to asking a LOT of questions. Not least of which is what else is the President hiding -- and what else has he been doing in our name? It's about time the Congress started demanding answers. The SCOTUS has opened the door -- who in Congress will be brave enough to walk through it, into the light?
(I've got the New Yorker article about Cheney and Addington in my "to read" pile, and hope to get to it this weekend. More to come on Hamdan...)
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JAMIE!
fitz!
WATB!
I had to read this First…….
STEVENS!!!!
There is a reason to hope. Thanks for your analysis Christy!
I’m re-posting this from the previous thread-
Christy, I’m a fan of pilates. You can try the tapes that don’t require equipment and are floor exercises. It’s great for your back too..
This just proves that Bush is NOT the Decider!
the LATimes has a great story on Hamdan http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....-headlines
Everyone -
Please read the three most recent threads on Glenn Greenwald’s Unclaimed territory for additional comments about the Hamdan decision: http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
It really scary that the decision wasn’t 8 to 0. How could any of the justices agree with what Bush has been doing? We are way too close for the ending of the constitution as we know it.
I shudder to think what we DON’T know about what’s going on with these maniacs.What we do know is hideous enough.
But what really scares me is that there’s no way to assess the total damage,and no way to know if it can be remedied or not.
I have a kid who will be an adult on his own in less than 10 yrs,what kind of country will he leave the nest and fly out into?That practically reduces me to tears,and not just the”oh my baby grew up so fast”kind of tears either.
Perhaps the most significant part of the ruling is that Americans can be held accountable for war crimes under the Geneva Conventions. I know the wingnuts will go ballistic at the thought but, for now, the rule of law has been asserted. No doubt BushCheney and his minions are already looking for ways to subvert or sidestep the ruling.
Eugene Robinson’s accompanying editorial is also spot-on:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01773.html
Bush is the Unitary Executive, though (in his own mind and in the mind of his minders) — and his Rubber Stamp Republican Do-Nothing Congress still might try to follow the Supremes’ instructions to give W the power he needs to protect America from the terrorists.
Or they could just follow the Colbert Doctrine, and abolish SCOTUS….
At Steve Gilliard’s site, one of the commenters refers to the dissenting judges as RATS=Roberts, Alito, Thomas, and Scalia.
The New Yorker article, “The Hidden Power,” by Jane Mayer is a “must read.” Bruce Fein, who has some great moments in this article, says that the Bush legal team was strikingly unsophisticated. “There is no one of legal stature, certainly no one like Bork or Scalia or Elliot Richardson or Archibald Cox,” he said. “It’s frightening. No one knows the Constitution–certainly not Cheney.” Gonzales, as an Administration lawyer, is “an empty suit,” according to one lawyer. “And he doesn’t know shit about the Geneva Conventions.”
Yesterday’s Hamdan decision IS a reason to celebrate - a victory for The Rule of Law.
My summary for our intellectually challanged Cmdr. Codpiece:
Supremes > Chimpy: “Asshole! You can’t do whatever the fuck you want!”
( sorry if that’s too obscene for some, but that’s how I see it. )
Christy,
LOVE the title of this post, and the picture from the previous (Whew!) post. Whwere do you find all those great photos?
What effect do you think this ruling will have in: Congress - will they get a spine now that the big bad SCOTUS has their backs? Public - will this change anyone’s ideas about Bush?
Hayseed and Brimstone
!!
LOL
What worries me about this Supreme Court ruling is that Roberts was not in on this case because he had already ruled in Bush’s favor on a lower court. So with one more change under Bush on the Supreme Court this Supreme Court would probably rule differently on the President’s power.
Now we wait to see how Congress will act on this. The last thing we need is for them to re-make the laws and renege on the Geneva Conventions in their lust to make George happy.
“Bruce Fein, an official in the Reagan administration, said the ruling restores balance in government. “What this decision says is, ‘No, Mr. President, you can be bound by treaties and statutes,’ ” he said. ” ‘If you need to have these changed, you can go to Congress.’ This idea of a coronated president instead of an inaugurated president has been dealt a sharp rebuke.”…”
Bah. What a crock. The chimp will ignore it…tell me, who is gonna stop him? Or, it may even be better for him and the gop, from a political standpoint, to use congress. Debate some new laws that allow the chimp to do what he wants(even retroactively) while framing it as being ‘tough on terra’ and the dems as pussies.
maybe i’m being too cynical, but i can’t get all excited and warm and fuzzy from ‘the triumph of the rule of law blahblah’ over the crumb thrown yesterday when there’s no will or method to enforce it.
One of my favorite pieces of this is Stevens’ busting Huck Graham and Kyl on their after-the-bell “legislative history”! Skeevy mopes.
the best paragraph from the LATimes article:
good post christy!
i think bush spends most of his time thinking about his next bicycle ride which is probably the only thing that keeps his massive anxieties in check. the slim volume “Bush on the Couch” explains his shortcomings and sadistic leanings. that little dislexic frog exploder is not a nice person.
p.s. oh that the comments section had spell check! i have to look so many.
I heard that Bush referred yesterday to the SCOTUS opinion as a “quote, ‘decision.’”
They’ve got to be shitting themselves. Yoo and Addington can officially kiss my ass.
cathy @ 10
One more Supreme appointment could tip the balance.
I see no cause for jubilation.
What I see is the the ante upped for the next SCOTUS appointment.
The Constitution literally hangs on that thread.
2008 cannot come soon enough for me.
another printed peek at Addington ?!?!? wtf,
this guy is all about being behind the scenes and this New Yorker article is the third major in as many months - there is every reason to believe he has pissed off lots of folks, and more so since taking over officially for Scooter - so there’s a small army of informants out there - it gives me small pleasures to see him exposed in any way
and of course, IANAL, but Unitary Executive has always struck me as the Intelligent Design of legal theories - screams contrived from miles away
Now we wait to see how Congress will act on this.
And that is a very scarey thought, being the way it has been acting lately.
…and the 5-4 SCOTUS that put Bush on the throne in 2000 was just a “decision”
Mommybrain:
Sadly, IMO, the TFM’s will remain TFM’s.
From tom–chicago yesterday - beverage alert, in case you haven’t seen…
http://www.udargo.com/mub/2006.....rters.html
:-)
Hmmmmm. Very interesting. I’m expecting the White House to attack the “liberal members of the Supreme Court” very shortly (in a similar manner to their recent attack on the New York Times.
Glenn Greenwald examines the possibility that POTUS will simply ignore SCOTUS.
Isn’t the President saying here that no matter what the Court says, he is “not going to . . . jeopardize the safety of the American people”? Thus, if compliance with the Supreme Court’s ruling would — in the President’s view — impair his ability to defend the nation, isn’t it quite likely that the President would simply refuse to comply with the ruling on the ground that the Court has no authority to impair his functions as Commander-in-Chief? And if he asserted that power, is there any doubt that his followers would trip over themselves with praise, wallowing in bravado fantasies of Andrew Jackson’s heroic challenge to the Court’s authority?
–
I’m greatly relieved that the court came down on the right side in their Hamdan decision, but it scares the hell out of me that it was essentially by *one* vote. We are a single Supreme Court justice from abandonment of our core constitutional values (Thank you “strict constructionists” Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts. “It’s what the founding fathers said… unless we don’t like it.”)
The NYer article on Addington is frightening. Do read it, folks.
Pure sadist, that guy.
Morning, all. cbl at 27 - “The Unitary Executive is the Intelligent Design of legal theories.” That is effin’ brilliant. Ladies and gents, we have a talking point!
SCOTUS becomes an even larger issue this year and in ‘08. The vast majority of non-lawyers miss that one, as a rule, but the Dem candidates better make sure they pound it hard.
So how long before the Do Nothing But Rubber Stamp bush jumps into the fray and passes a law authorizing these star chamber tribunals?
The Right’s answer: How many divisions does the Supreme Court have?
Bush and Co. will simply defy the ruling - bet the farm on it. At best they’ll be more secretive about their actions, but I suspect they’ll cry “terrorism!!” and go back to business openly and unapologetically.
And they say they want to get government off our backs.
Wow.
The magnitude of this decision will depend on our ability to use it as a political club to beat the neo-cons about the head and shoulders.
The gop and their bloglodytes in the echo chamber will attempt to minimize the scope of the damage, but in the immortal words of TRex…now is the time to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTAAACK!.
The basis for their power grab has been pulverized and War Crime investigations should begin based on the following statement found on Greenwald’s site:
The Supreme Court today, by a 5-3 decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, held that the Bush administration’s military commissions at Guantanamo…violate the law of war, including Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions which, the Court held, applies to all detainees in any armed conflict, including Al Qaeda members.
Off to the Hague!
“Now we wait to see how Congress will act on this.”
Perhaps this do-nothing Congress won’t act at all. With the mid-terms coming up soon, Bushco is becoming more and more toxic for Repubs facing reelection. I’m betting that the Rubber-Stamp Republicans will be very relunctant to provide any more enabling legislation to this administration anytime soon.
This ruling just inches the country a little further towards the realization that this administration is out of control. Politically, the only way to reign them in is to vote Dems back into the legislature. I’m thinking (and hoping) the ripple effects from this decision will be so far-reaching as to sway the electorate.
Steve Clark at 31,
I hope Mickey doesn’t mind, but I’m taking the liberty of re-posting his/her comment from the last thread:
The “liberal runaway judges” argument is dead in the water this time%u2026
The Current Supreme Court
Justice John Roberts
Appointed by: G W Bush
Justice John Paul Stevens
Appointed by: Ford
Justice Antonin Scalia
Appointed by: Reagan
Justice Anthony Kennedy
Appointed by: Reagan
Justice David Souter
Appointed by: G H W Bush
Justice Clarence Thomas
Appointed by: G H W Bush
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg
Appointed by: Clinton
Justice Steven Bryer
Appointed by: Clinton
Justice Samuel Alito
Appointed by: G W Bush
[Moderator: this comment is so good that I took the liberty of reformatting it for better legibility.]
Thomas’ dissent is just sickening. Did Rove write it?
The NYT lead story begins with a great picture — three legal heroes who won the case (Hope Mary sees this).
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06.....mp;ei=5087
The article, written by Linda Greenhouse et al, has some great observations:
The decision was such a sweeping and categorical defeat for the Bush administration that it left human rights lawyers who have pressed this and other cases on behalf of Guantanamo detainees almost speechless with surprise and delight, using words like “fantastic,” “amazing,” “remarkable.” Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a public interest law firm in New York that represents hundreds of detainees, said, “It doesn’t get any better.”
[and I loved this paragraph:]
In the courtroom on Thursday morning, the chief justice sat silently in his center chair as Justice Stevens, sitting to his immediate right as the senior associate justice, read from the majority opinion. It made for a striking tableau on the final day of the first term of the Roberts court: the young chief justice, observing his work of just a year earlier taken apart point by point by the tenacious 86-year-old Justice Stevens, winner of a Bronze Star for his service as a Navy officer during World War II.
Percy @ 33
Amen!
thanks Leslie.
sticky - have been clocking that monster for a while now - he may in fact be responsible for the permanent 5 point rise in my bp -
gonna go all freeper on y’all for a sec - my most fervent dreams have me disabling him right in front of Pres. Cheney before I turn my gaze back to his Darthness
btw, I say “all freeper” b/c those people (Melanie Morgan anyone ?) are tantric in their shit about violence, torture, and death
The Constitution may be on life-support but it just received a wonderful transfusion that may assure complete recovery.
Pray for Justice Stevens’ continued good health.
What bothers me is that Bush seems to think the SCOTUS decision is more of a “suggestion” and not a court order and I think that is how they will play this…
how soon before we hear from the right about those “activist” supreme court judges……who have been nominated by republican presidents, lol and christy, i have ms and find yoga great for relaxing and stretching muscles
EPUd’ Wasn’t paying attention.
I haven’t posted a Diary at DailyKos before. Just did (under another user name).
It is a better version of what I posted here in the comments. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/30/104417/481
PS, is this blogwhoring?
Lotus at 36:
I second that, I’m one of those non-lawyers…It’s precisely why I love this site. I’ve learned a lot from it.
One would think though that the Democartic leadership is more versed in law and it would take this opportunity to hammer the administartion.
Hope does srping eternal….
“Yoo Loose”?
if the legal reasonings of Clarence Thomas had consistently guided the SCOTUS in the past, he would be mopping the floors of the Supreme Court Building unpaid.
Raw Story headline:
Senators already moving to nullify Supreme Court
decision over Guantanamo Bay trials… Developing…
How many divisions has the SCOTUS?
Will W pay for this violation of law? Will Senator Spectre (R-Lack-o-spine) summon a Unitary Executive minion to testify unsworn about the need for A New Law?
Will Senator Graham (R-DADT) craft a solution that allows His Unitariness to protect us from All Evil Browns?
Will any Democrats join Senator Feingold’s call for censure? Seems like it’s even more needed now….
Will the John Roberts family be removed from the WH Xmas card list? It’s gotta be a disappointment, that the new Chief couldn’t get “a ‘quote’ ruling” favoring His Unitariness. And on the very same case that got Roberts the nod in the first place — remember the discussion about whether even talking to the Executive about the SCOTUS job was appropriate, given that W was appearing before him at appellate in Hamdan simultaneously?
And then there was that Roberts talk, once Alito was confirmed, about working towards unanimity.
========
Had Enough?
========
Oh, you all will love hearing that Specter almost immediately introduced a bill titled, “The Unprivileged Combatants Act,” to establish the tribunals, according to the paper this morning.
Are we sure that there aren’t two Arlen Specters - the one who wants to hold hearings, and the “evil twin?”
Cathy @10
It wasn’t 8-0, because the most recent justices have been explicitly chosen for their belief in the President-as-Monarch theory….err I mean Unitary Executive. They are comletely on board with ending our experiment in Democracy.
afterthought - excellent !
Scarecrow - thanks so much for the NYT link
has anyone been over to Intel Dump yet ? - they’re all JAG and former JAG - guess I’ll go check
gawd– pikshures of W and Koizumi on their way to Graceland…
Elvis served in the military…
Lisa Marie and Priscilla will escort them.
barf.
Here is how Tony Snow, the President’s spokesman, viewed the Hamdandecision:
“I don’t think it weakens the president’s hand, and it certainly doesn’t change the way in which we move as aggressively as possible to try to cut off terrorists before they can strike again,” he said.
What’s going on here?
Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, in a 2003 Boston College commencement address, told this story of President Andrew Jackson and the Supreme Court:
In 1832 the Cherokee Indian tribe lived on land guaranteed them by treaty. They found gold on that land. Georgia tried to seize the land. The Cherokees sued. And eventually the Supreme Court, in Worcester v. Georgia, held in favor of the Cherokees.
Georgia then refused to obey the Court. President Andrew Jackson reportedly said, “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it.” And Jackson sent troops to evict the Cherokees, who traveled the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma, thousands dying along the way.
Rather than either attacking the Justices who issued the decision or recognizing the broad implications of the blow that Hamdan has dealt to the Bush’s notion of unlimited Presidential power, the President will just ignore it.
Tom says: “Thomas’ dissent is just sickening. Did Rove write it?”
June 30th, 2006 at 7:44 am
No. Justice Thomas would have written it, with assistance from his law clerks. Since I haven’t had time to read the text of Justice Thomas’ opinion, let alone the text of the entire opinion, how much case law did he cite in his dissenting opinion?
MC at 40 _
I guess I hope you’re both right and wrong about Congress doing nothing. This ruling is an opportunity for the Democrats to re-introduce requests for investigations and call for a halt on some of the activities that have now clearly been labeled as outside the pale. But I fear that instead the Republicans will dance all over the laws with their majority and we’ll be left with nothing to do but weep.
cbl — The NYT article is a great read. I urge others to buy a print copy if you can, because along side the article is a helpful graphic that tracks the history of the four sets of cases involving Gitmo/Padilla, etc, showing what happend in each case, to each set of prisoner(s), what Bush was doing, what the courts at various levels were doing, all leading to yesterday’s decisions. It is an ugly picture of an Administration determined to ignore the law and the complicity of Congress in trying to strip the courts of any oversight — to avoid exactly yesterday’s outcome.
OT– Why oh why are we spending money on another Discovery launch? Unless they are shooting into space to solve the climate crisis and bring about world peace and cure diseases and get clean water and food to all humankind , I say stay home and work on the problems from here– that’s science that makes sense right here, right now.
waste.
Hasn’t SCOTUS opened the door for Feingold’s censure resolution?
Helloooooo, Senate Democrats, anyone home?
>> crickets < <</p>
angie says
June 30th, 2006 at 7:52 am
But will it pass both houses? And what prevents it from becoming ex post facto legislation?
Thomas must really have been ticked off at the majority. According to NBC yesterday, for only the second time he read off part of his dissent from the bench.
One of the things highlighted by the NYT artcile’s graphic is how several federal appeals courts overruled district court decisions that anticipated the Supreme Court. In other words, there are already majorities in some of the courts of appeals willing to allow the Administration to do whatever it wants. We’ll have that legacy around for a long time, but at least they’ll be bound for awhile by yesterday’s precedent (but not forever).
The GOP-led Congress will certainly try to retroactively legalize or otherwise legitimize the administration’s wrongdoing. Here is a golden opportunity for the Dems to unite and provide real opposition. Harry Reid knows how to shut the Senate down.
I have elected, however, not to hold my breath.
The Hamdan decision is truly welcome. For the symbolism, if nothing else. But there is a long list of issues I’d like to see the courts address. Starting with the methods employed in connection with, and legality of taking us into what has now become the very un-conflated Bush war in Iraq. And the Bush signing statements could be looked at. A ruling on the re-institution of checks and balances, the seperation, (with a capital “S”) of powers stuff upon which this democracy of ours is supposed to be predicated would be helpful. These issues are just for starters. The bottom line is that the courts are our (citizens) only protection against gross usurpation. Perhaps these things are not within the purview of the courts. If so it is a startling reminder of just how helpless we might be.
angie @ 64
You’d be surprised where the fruits of the space program pop up, from medical technology to computer technology to ecological research to weather satellites to GPS to . . .
Basic science may not be headline grabbing, but it results in amazing things down the road for everyone.
There are some questions … about the Bush Presidency, beginning with one as to why George Bush continually allows Dick Cheney, David Addington and the neocon cabal to do his thinking for him
Err…I would think the answer to that question is obvious. It is plain from the academic and professional history of Bushie. He is entirely incapable, and self-satisfied and content in that incapability, to think. He completely lacks the tools and the background to think. He’s all gut reaction (very mid-brain) and virtually nothing on top. I daresay that an MRI of his waking mind would show a big dark blot throughout the higher regions of his brain and only a hint of a spark of activity in the oldest, most reptilian part of his brain.
OK– I just threw a major fit all by my lonesome. Kagan does a quick blurb about the Hamdan case and then an double quick two step to point out that Israel bombed the Interior Ministry in Palestine… then…
a replay of Star Jones on Larry King!!!
No other news. $%#@&^!!!
how low can CNN go? at 11am, they are replaying the entire hour-long Larry King Live interview of Star Jones whing about a TV show. It isn’t like it’s a slow news day or anything … by the way, how’s the Israeli attack on Gaza going?
Raw Story: Senators already moving to nullify Supreme Court decision over Guantanamo Bay trials… Developing…
Prof 59
“the President will just ignore it.” That is exactly what he is going to do…with perhaps a little help from the rubber stampers..
from Rawstory “Senators already moving to nullify Supreme Court decision over Guantanamo Bay trials.”
God, will this nightmare ever end..
Briefly OT — I finally found (h/t Juan Cole) the truly complete version of yesterday’s Cox News article on the poll of anti-terrorism experts:
U.S. losing terror war because of Iraq, poll says
OfTopic, and on a sad note (sorry if covered earlier and I missed it):
Gays lost one of our giants, Eric Rofes, in Provincetown on Monday. Liz Highleyman’s excellent obit is here:
http://www.ericrofes.com/bio/general.php
thanks again Mr. Scarecrow, will pick it up on my way in to work
here is Intel Dump link (3/4 page) - these guys are JAG or former JAG - this is one of their initial impressions from HAMDAN - basically SCOTUS gave the Chimp 3 options, the third being - do nothing, the more I think about it, the more that one makes sense - especially for the do nothing Congress
btw, haven’t read the comments attached to this post yet, but was really moved by the patriotism of some of their commenters when the NSA story broke
http://www.intel-dump.com/arch.....1151599499
Peterr, I know– I have always supported the space program. But hell’s bells, there may be nobody around to benefit from any of the science if we don’t take care of things that are happening right now! We have a huge part of this country that does not even believe in global warming, stem cell research, evolution, etc. But they do believe in bombs and guns and grotesque war.
the dam is starting to leak. the rats are running.
for the past 6 years the ‘law and order’ base has been played like a banjo. this is our wedge issue. they are breaking the law. even his right-wing court has said: too much, too much… keep pounding at halliburton, abramoff, cunningham, ney, delay etc. one word hammers. keep pounding.
anybody else watch the Crooks & Liars clips titled: House Democrats Fight for Oversight and New York Times? this is great stuff.
it’s 7pm in Baghdad and the temperature out at the Airport is 107ºF — it’s likely the power’s off back in the city so the AC is on the fritz again …
My biggest fear right now is that Spector or some other rethug will introduce broad legislation to counteract the SCOTUS decision. And, the do nothing rubber stamp congress will rubber stamp it, because they’re AFRAID to stand up to the idiot and his pack of fascists. Even if it completely goes against what few democratic (small d) principles that are left in this country. Poor Russ will be talking to a blank wall, again.
aw Story: Senators already moving to nullify Supreme Court decision over Guantanamo Bay trials%u2026 Developing%u2026
Calm down. The Supreme Court did not state that tribunals could not occur, only that the President had no Congressional authority (which was needed) to conduct them. That ruling made it explicit that the Congress has to set the rules down for the President to follow. If the Senate goes back to make tribunals OK, then the Supreme Court ruling isn’t “nullified”, it is properly acting upon the ruling.
What they don’t get to do is alter the fact that the prisoners are entitled to Geneva Conventions protections. Period.
If Congress takes away SCOTUS’s jurisdiction on the military tribunals, do any constitutional issues exist with respect to the combatants? Or because they are non-citizens held on foreign land do they not have any constitutional rights? It’s been too many years since I studied constitutional law. Please go easy on me. Thanks. Sorry for remedial question on constitutional law.
I was just curious because they said the court did not reach any constitutional law questions because they did not need to in order to rule. However, that sounds like constitutional questions were raised, just not answered.
It certainly looks like the Wurlitzer already had a Plan A and Plan B in the works awaiting the SCOTUS “quote, decision”.
AEI publshed a responsive article two hours ago by John Yoo — more importantly, the same article appears in USAToday.
Which means this was drafted yesterday and made today’s cut-off…
Nice bit of professionalism on Yoo’s part, too, to call them “Five Wrong Justices”. What’s he really implying here?
The administration has already noted its desire to have Congress rewrite whatever law is necessary for it to obtain its desired ends.
A highly partisan Republican Congress will attempt to do just what this administration desires. Any challenge to newly-revised law will take more time to find its way through the courts than will Bush be in office.
Stalemate. In the meantime, that will give the Bushies whatever leeway they desire to continue on the course they now are on.
The court offered no equivalent of a cease-and-desist order in this ruling. The situation will not change in any meaningful span of time.
The Bushies will ignore responding to this ruling for as long as it takes. They will talk about it, they will send Tony Snow out to equivocate, they will ask for judgments from their own DoJ on the legalities, they will continue to interpret the ruling for as long as they are able. The one thing they will not do is comply fully and completely and immediately.
The Constitution provides relief in such situations, and for partisan reasons alone, this Congress will not avail itself of that remedy. And the Bush administration knows that.
Bummer to say so, but, it’s still the truth.
I don’t read the decision as making any form of military tribunal unlawful. My limited reading/understanding suggests that Court is saying, Congress must authorize and define the procedures for such courts, and those procedures must at least meet the minimum safeguards required by the Geneva Conventions, which are part of US law.
So its acceptable (and the Court decision encourage this) for Congress to specific what the rules should be for trials/court review of these prisoners’ status. But just as the Administration did everything it could to undermine Congress’ attempt to expressly outlaw torture, etc, by statute, we can expect the Administration to undermine any Congressional attempt to grant fair procedures for whatever courts Congress authorizes.
That debate is just beginning. And you can bet there will be an attempt in that statute to prevent the federal courts and the Supreme Court from reviewing the lawfulness of whatever statutory scheme they come up with. The Administration will not want to give the Supreme Court another bite at this apply, with the current majority. I don’t know [I doubt] whether constitutionally the Congress could prevent the Supreme Court from reviewing the constitutitonality of such a statute — but that won’t prevent the Bush/congresscritter people from trying.
Peterr : much of the economic benefits of the Space Program is serendipitous. If the amount of money spent on that program were directed into more basic research and targeted technology development, the practical benefits would be so much greater…
I see it (this DECISION) as the legal/Constitutional equivalent of Apollo 13 “Houston, we have a problem.”
Now, are the ground based engineers working to a solution to save the Republic, keeping in mind the motto “Failure is NOT an option.”?
I’m reserving judgement.
—-
Whoever was quoted in NYT “This is the best possible…”
hasn’t seen a 9-0 ruling, I guess.
PeterR and Angie,
never know whether to scream or weep when I think of wholesale slaughter of scientific research and good ol R & D in this country - and the price my longed for grandchildren will pay
let’s see,
manufacturing base - gone
national treasury - gone
repository of scientific knowledge - gone
military capabilities - all but gone
but hey, the illegal immigrant queers can’t get married
PA 84: well, Congress could withdraw the US from the “quaint” Geneva Accords. Now that’s something His Unitariness might not need a signing statement to get behind!
We have to turn the Senate to a Democratic majority in November. We can’t afford another Bush appointee on SCOTUS.
The decision is a good one, though I doubt it will do much good since the Republicans in Congress will do nothing, as is their wont, to stand up for themselves, even with the third branch basically reminding them they are supposed to be an independent power in the federal government.
Without Congress pushing back, I doubt the WH will make much notice of this decision now. Later on it might become important for precedent.
But given how close this decision was, we absolutely cannot afford to let Breyer, Ginsberg or Stevens to be replaced by a Bush appointee. This requires removing guys like Holy Joe from the Senate this fall, as well as our own Mike DeWine.
I wanna see the polls over the next week or so — I have it in mind that the rubber-stampers will need a re-think (par’n my oxymoron) once they see the public reaction to Hamdan.
Like a spoiled kid, the President got to do what he wanted to do. He and the nut cases around him never recognized:
1) The Geneva Conventions protect our soldiers,
2) The rule of law gives Americans the high moral ground prepared by our forefathers,
3) The separation of powers requires consultation and approval which makes the laws and policies more likely to reflect the real world and actually work.
One more Wingnut Supreme Court Judge and America becomes a Monarchy with all the ills associated with King George.
ooooh, Dana Milbank took a swipe at Feingold this morning while answering a question about the Lamont challenge….
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00696.html
And we’re losing ground in Iraq because of things like this.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....vestigated
New thread
Blank Kludge 335 late nite:
Marked “For egregious” (EYES ONLY): http://w ww.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2006/06/30/storage_ giant_emc_to_buy_rsa_for_21b/
Here is the original link.
Me?
Link is about merger involving a data security company. Oh and look it’s a miracle, VA says the missing laptop was ‘found’ and they pinky promise that nothing was stolen! They said so!
These stories all remind me of the guy who smashes windshields by night and operates a windshield installation company by day.
Create the problem, offer to $olve the problem.
$o $imple.
montag 87 and scarecrow 88 -
Both reflect my thinking, and say it better.
Especially from 87 re: ‘cease and desist’.
new thread!
http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....eir-sakes/
However, Huckleberry Graham will eagerly grant Chimpy the powers he asks for.
The big political question mark for what Congress will do is the up to those running for reelection.
Bush isn’t on the ballot again, and those who are will have to decide if it matters whether or not they stand up for quaint concepts like the rule of law and living up to our word in the international community (like abiding by treaties we’ve signed).
Helping them to make up their minds sounds like a job for the Roots!
Greeting, egreg!
gotta ketchup. EPU lurking.
TeddySF,
thanks for the Rofes obit - Rest In Peace, Eric
was attending an orientation to volunteer at Shanti - and through the paper thin walls was witness to hearing him eviscerate the visiting Randy Shilts for some Act Up piece Randy had written -omg - it was thrilling and quite scary - to the point where the Volunteer Coordinator was telling us ‘please don’t leave, he’s a very loving, giving man !’ of course, none of us left - by the time the project was up and running, there were hundreds of us - he somehow remembered all of our names ! an amazing character
Thanks for the education. FDL and its many bloggers are so interesting that I have to pry myself away to get my much more mundane work done. Truly this was an historic ruling. I, too, wish that the decision had been a 9-0 decision.
squirrel hiller at 24
yew tink wee spell gooder’n yall? NOT.
Open a “Compose e-mail” window & type in your comment, or just a word you’re not sure of. Use the e-mail spell-checker on the thing. Then copy & paste it into the website comment box. Voila! ;->
It really scary that the decision wasn’t 8 to 0.
Aside from the obvious underlying issues on appointments, everyone needs to realize that the President goat a huge assist from Congress in the Detention Treatment Act and that was a big hurdle placed in the way of the Court.
[RAYNE - since you are Levin’s constituent he needs to know - another unholy alliance with Graham and Kyl is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad thing.]
In connection with the “anti-torture” amendment, Graham - who is a lot more cunning than most Senators seem to be on the legal front - did everything but a triple-back-sumersault to chinese splits in order to both retroactively OK the President’s procedures and to insulate the PResident from any judicial review. That was a pretty d*mn obstacle and it got slid in as if the Dems were naive children.
I guess the theory was - get a big show of “anti-torture” numbers as a quid pro quo for doing away with any system of judicial review or application of Congressional statutory rigors as established in the UCMJ or the Geneva Conventions.
Also - keep in mind that, on the facts, Hamdan was one of the best cases the gov could have taken up for their approach. He really truly is al-Qaeda and we really truly need to address that full on with an effective approach.
I don’t think people realize how much procedural and statutory impedimenta were shoveled in the path of this review — IMO, pretty amazing we were able to come up with this. OTOH — for some of issues out there where the “battlefield deference” doesn’t apply - like NSA wiretaps of US citizens on US soil — the heat is on big time. Keep in mind that even Scalia, in Hamdi had a very different view of the govt’s and Exec’s rights once they were dealing with a US citizen on US soil - that could (?you never know - he did help rescue right to counsel of choice) be one more peel off.
Bush needs to look Addington in the eye and, to paraphrase Fein, ask him, “Just how adequate are you?”
(even Milbank - who I think got a lot wrong - mentioned Addington on KO last night)
If it’s ok, I may have some long comments later today —
I have a couple of hours in the car coming up - but I’m still very worried about an inept Congress continuing to unravel the spool even after the Court took it from the President’s hands.
Mary — please do post some long comments or, in the alternative, feel free to work on something longer and send it to me and I’ll put it up as a post. This opinion is enormous — and there are so many issues involved in the separation of powers concerns and the unitary executive smackdowns and all, that it’s going to be a multiple post analysis. I keep having to pare down my own thoughts into more manageable bites. So I’d love your take on it as well. (And I’m going to link up Prof’s DKos diary in a bit as well…)
Given our competition-obsessed society, I can’t imagine it will take long at all for the administration and its supporters to do anything possible to regain superiority over the SCOTUS. It’s all about winning at the expense of everything.
Pretty pathetic.
Good, quick analysis of what seems to be a complicated ruling by the supremes, Redd. I’m sure you’ll revisiting Hamdan again and again.
I can imagine George Bush looking himself in the mirror this morning as he shaves, saying “OK, Stevens, you’ve covered your ass, so…..?”
Mary -
What Christy said.
(And given that SCOTUS is now on summer vacation, they won’t be dropping any more opinions to be parsed for a while to distract us.)
THANKS for yet another wonderful post, Christy.
I don’t remember how I stumbled onto FDL a couple a years ago, but sure glad I did. This community gives me hope, & I’m getting a whole new education & loving every minute of it.
We’re still gonna have to fight every inch of the way to get our country back, but we will, by gum!
Hug the Peanut for us. Does she like preschool? Have you ever had time to go and watch? Fun.;->
Mary
Please do what Christy suggests in her 108.
Lots of us hang on your every word in comments.
We’d really appreciate a big fat lead article any time you feel like it.
the elephant in the room is that the decision clears the runway for trial and conviction of the bushliar-criminal regime for war crimes. This is the cult of republicanism’s panic, not that the neocon world domination conquest game of risk using real people as pawns, is over.
.
The News Hour segment on the Hamdan decision was very illuminating. The one point that jumped out at me — The SCOTUS interpreted the Geneva Convention Common Article 3 to include the Gitmo Detainees, and in so doing filled a gap in the treaty. The rest of the world adopted a Geneva Convention revision in the 1980’s, but Reagan rejected it. Full excerpt below:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb.....06-29.html
Torture rejected in war on terror
MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Margulies, what is your sense of how broad this invocation of the Geneva Convention is and what the implications are in today’s ruling? I mean, does it mean that, for instance, it also applies to detainees, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, being held elsewhere out of the country? Does it affect, for instance, interrogation policies?
JOSEPH MARGULIES: What the Supreme Court held in the recognition of Common Article 3 as a baseline is that war is not a dissent into lawless anarchy, that you do not allow, no matter who you believe this person to be, no matter what you believe he may have done, no matter where you caught him, no matter what you think he may have been responsible for, we do not return to the time where you could treat prisoners like caged beasts.
Common Article 3 provides a baseline for treatment, the most fundamental basic, essential protections for fair trials, the most fundamental, essential protections for how you treat prisoners, restrictions on interrogations, guarding against cruel and degrading treatment.
Any suggestion that the president as commander in chief can unilaterally order that prisoners be treated in a fashion that is cruel and degrading, deliberately so, that they could be tortured, deliberately so, and that that is somehow something that we need to reserve for the president in his commander in chief power, I am grateful that five members of the court turned their back on that doctrine. That was the right decision.
MARGARET WARNER: John Yoo, you were the co-author, famously, or a co-author of what some people call the “torture memo,” but it was a memo, Justice Department memo that argued that, in fact, the Geneva Convention did not apply to these detainees and, therefore, different kinds of more extreme interrogation methods were certainly permissible.
Does this ruling knock the pins out from under that position that you and others in the administration took? And, if so, what are the implications?
JOHN YOO: Well, I do think it’s fair to say the court rejected the idea that Common Article 3 doesn’t apply in the war on terrorism or that the Geneva Conventions don’t apply to al-Qaida in the war on terrorism, so it does knock that out from under the administration’s legal position on the status of detainees.
I do think the court was mistaken on that, and if there is going to be one thing that Congress is likely to overrule it will overrule that part of the opinion.
The reason why the court — I’m sorry, the administration said that was because Common Article 3 was intended, if you look at the materials at the time, to apply to internal civil wars. The rest of the Geneva Conventions apply to international wars.
And so there was a gap about this new kind of war we’ve been facing, a war against an international terrorist organization that is not a state but that can inflict the kind of violence that would kill 3,000 Americans and destroy the World Trade Center.
The problem is that, after Common Article 3 was passed in 1977, a lot of nations recognized that this was a gap and passed another treaty to fill that gap, and the United States refused to sign on. President Reagan refused to sign that treaty, and he said specifically at the time he didn’t want to do it because he didn’t want to provide prisoner protections to terrorists.
So the court has rejected all of that, but I think, as you say and other panelists have said, there’s a lot of implications that go well beyond military commissions, if the administration has to fight, according to the Geneva Convention Article 3, against an enemy that refuses to obey it.
And so I think that’s going to place a lot of strain on the ability of the government to pursue the war on terrorism, and so Congress and the president will both have an incentive to change that part of the ruling. …
angie at 72
Simple law of the MSM.
Gotta be fair & balanced.
Every load of substance must be counterbalanced by an equal amt. of trash.
I worry about you. Don’t risk a coronary by watching too much a that stuff, unless you’re trolling for *snark* fodder.
Mary 107 — in your free time (heh) do you think you could draft something more explicit that I can send to Levin? I think I need to do more than tell him not to play with Graham and Kyl any more; would like to point out the specific problems with DTA (as well as his usefulness in making this “bi-partisan”) and what modifications should be pushed at this time.
Goes to show you that some of our best folks (Levin’s voting record has typically been in the upper ranks of Dems) are likely to f*ck up if we’re not watching them like hawks and in their faces.
I’m going to pop off a note to progressive org Justice Caucus, too, to see if they can offer a position on DTA and Hamdan for near-term action.
“In some ways, the ruling replicates a pattern in American history where presidents have acted aggressively in wartime, only to be reined in by courts or Congress.”
its not just America, its all dictators and authoritarian cultists…its called rule by fear and intimidation and its work since the dawn of man (works in the rest of the animal kingdom too).
The lesson the cultists have learned is that since their ideology and policies are so unpopular, if they want to be in power and even have free-reign, what they have to do is gin-up reasons to keep the sheople frighened.
.
Adie– I watched nary a minute of that trash, I try to avoid it at all costs and I do thank you sincerely for your concern. The thing is, their is really no balance at all. Mostly all trash, all the time, including the hollering pundits.
*sigh*
there is not their…
Bush plans to add a signing statement to the Constitution. Gonazales thinks it is a neat idea.
Time for another Justice Sunday! And a stern tongue-lashing for these activist judges. They better watch what they do and say. After all, the Constitution is “just a god-damned piece of paper” and even Supreme Court Justices are just a bunch of old fogeys with minimal security protection.
What else is Bushie doing?
He’s surveilling all members of Congress and using it as blackmail material to get them to rollover for his agenda, that’s what.
totally agree with you!
in my pre-FDL days, I used to feel obligated to watch as much of the trash-news as I could, so I would have some clue as to how to talk to acquaintances who watched as true-believers, & in hopes of opening their eyes & brains to something beyond repug talking points.
it was HARD! Yes, when the totally-off-the-wall stuff started, I just had to click it off. Politics was the only subject matter I was interested in but, as you well know, coverage of that alone was/IS . . .
twisted, garbled, filtered & skewed!
WHY don’t they do their jobs? Lazy? dumb? afraid of sticking neck out for fear of having head lopped off by mgmt? Playing the shill for $$ &/or access? All of the above?
angie my 124 ;->
whoopie! the rule of law is affirmed!
Sorry no. Exactly nothing good will come from this. The Repubs will use it to make the left look weak and the administration will continue unchecked.
Sorry… it already too late.
Listened on C-Span to the Georgetown University Law School analysis of the Supreme Court Decision
and there is hope. Most important is that anyone in violation of Article 3 of the Geneva Convention,will be charged with a felony. This article deals with torture. Military Jag offices are already running, i.e., refusing to go forward with anything that violates Article 3 of the Geneva Convention!!!
Has anyone noticed the absence of any story about the Supreme Court decision from the internet main Media pages? It was headlines yesterday and suddenly, the Japan PM at Graceland is more important!!! I’m beginning to think that ABC,CBS,CNN,MSNBC, and even Google Headline News are part of the Bush Cabal!!
george (I’m the decider) Bush
meet
SCOTUS (the new decider in town).
oops, out decider’d
Hmmn? Where have I heard this before?
I love it! Hundreds of thousands of posts warning of the evils of George Bush’s America, and now I learn that things are just as rotten in Holland, if you are to believe the Dutch Moonbats. And why wouldn’t I?
…is much, much more than just a bad politician.
She is a genuinely woman, a raving lunatic who cannot face the fact that her insane policies have destroyed a once-great country called the Netherlands.
Rita Verdonk’s Netherlands is an arrogant bully distrusted by its citizens, hated by most of the rest of the world and divided internally by her divisive, duplicitous actions.
I wonder what Joe Liebermans take on this is. He is pretty openly in ass kiss posture for every over reach this bunch of Morons has made i believe.
My bad.
When I heard someone mention “the unitary executive theories of Dick Cheney, David Addington and crew,” I thought they actually said “the URINARY executive theories” of Dick Cheney, David Addington, Karl Rove, John Yoo, etc. etc..
You know, their piss on the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the U.S. Congress, the Supreme Court, the Geneva Conventions, or anyone who democratically disagrees with them “urinary executive theory.”
But now that I’ve seen this phrase in writing, I realize my mistake. It’s not “urinary,” but “unitary.” Hmmmm, it seems that whatever these neocons came up with as a theory, no matter how it’s spelled, is still a pisser.
I say, piss on them. Or at least get the neocons a colostomy bag so they can keep their pissing to themselves. They’re really beginning to piss me off.