
Former Attorney General John Ashcroft goes where one former A.G. probably should not. John Ashcroft is… "The Insider." Now lobbying in government offices probably nowhere near you.
With a history dating back to the late 19th century, General Dynamics is among the top five defense contractors based in the United States and involved in land, sea and air weapon systems. (Recently acquired Anteon International Corporation.) Officially established under its current name in February 1952, GD is based in Falls Church, Virginia and is the manufacturer of the M1 Abrams tank and the Los Angeles class SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines).
In a November 2004 article in the Providence Journal, it was noted that General Dynamics is "the largest maker of armored vehicles for the U.S. military." According to Oakland, Calif. based watchdog, CorpWatch, General Dynamics received almost $10 billion in government contracts and made $1.42 million in political contributions (57% to Republicans) in the 2004 election cycle. (The blogosphere’s favorite senator, Joe Lieberman, received $10,000 from GD in 2005. Just one of the many defense industry donors to the junior senator from Connecticut.) And just for good measure, the current Deputy Secretary of Defense and former Secretary of the Navy, Gordon England, served as General Dynamics vice president from 1997 until 2001. CorpWatch summarized the relationship between GD executives and the military:
The Boston Globe noted at the time of his nomination that "Gordon England had no military experience, but he had just the right qualification to become President Bush’s pick for secretary of the Navy: Two decades in the corporate world." Former Pentagon and military officials populate General Dynamic’s Board of Directors, including Jay L. Johnson, Chief of Naval Operations in the U.S. Navy, Paul G. Kaminski, Under Secretary of U.S. Department of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, and George A. Joulwan, former U.S. Army Supreme Allied Commander, Europe.
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell had an interest in the company as well. He received $1 million of stock in General Dynamics, as well as more than $20 million in other corporate investments, when he joined the board of America Online.
General Dynamics’ ties to the federal government were further strengthened as former Attorney General John Ashcroft’s lobbying firm, The Ashcroft Group, was recently hired by GD (via David R. Mark of JABBS):
Former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s lobbying firm has been hired by General Dynamics to represent it on "trade and defense issues," O’Dwyer’s PR Daily reports in its June 15 edition.[...]
General Dynamics has hardly been hurting for business from the Bush Administration. The Washington Times reported June 13 that "the steady stream of orders from the U.S. Army — which now total about 25 percent of the company’s sales — provides a solid base that will continue for years." The defense contractor’s net sales have more than doubled since 2000 to $21.24 billion last year.
[...]
Ashcroft, who set up his lobbying firm last September, is at the center of that criticism, with some saying that for the nation’s chief law enforcement officer to move to K Street was as undignified as it was unusual. Ashcroft is the first former attorney general to become a registered lobbyist. Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, told the New York Times that because Ashcroft had worked only in government, "he cannot claim to have any business expertise."
"What is he selling, other than connections and knowledge of how to game the system from being attorney general?" Brian asked. Consider this: After helping prosecute executives at Enron and WorldCom, Ashcroft now says he can counsel similar troubled companies to avoid similar fates — to be "someone who can take threatening circumstances and neutralize them." (emphasis from JABBS)
Ah yes, the ol’ revolving door and the shameless transparent use of government contacts: (Connected) people helping (rich) people (get richer).
Question: When Ashcroft’s group seals the deal on a contract for General Dynamics, do you think they will break out the Crisco to mark the occasion, followed by a rousing rendition of "Let the Eagle Soar"? It’s probably company policy for one of the best "hired guns" on K-Street.
Related Earlier this week, Senator Byron Dorgan (D-North Dakota) penned an amendment to the Defense appropriation bill in an attempt to reign in defense contractors that have run amok in Iraq. It was co-sponsored by 17 Democrats but Republicans voted against it, leading to its defeat. There should be no doubt that the Republicans are complicit in the fleecing of the American taxpayers to feed the greedy appetite of defense contractors. Bob Geiger wrote June 20 for Democrats.com:
"I think when you are at war, when a massive quantity of money is being pushed out the door, that we ought to decide to get tough on those who would be engaged in war profiteering," said Dorgan in fighting for his amendment last week. "I dare say that never in the history of this country has so much money been wasted so quickly. And, yes, there is fraud involved, there is abuse involved, and it is the case that there is a dramatic amount of taxpayers’ money that is now being wasted."
[...]
And Senate Republicans still saw fit to reject penalizing companies engaging in overt war profiteering and fraud despite Dorgan’s spending a considerable amount of time on the Senate floor trotting out example after example of the hideous abuse that has been occurring in Iraq.
"What we have discovered is pretty unbelievable," said Dorgan last week. "We have direct testimony from physicians, Army doctors, and others about providing nonpotable water for shaving, brushing teeth that is in worse condition as water than the raw water coming out of the Euphrates River."
"Let me describe some of the firsthand eyewitness issues in Iraq," Dorgan continued. "Brand new $85,000 trucks that were left on the side of the road because of a flat tire and then subsequently burned. 25 tons, 50,000 pounds, of nails ordered by Kellogg, Brown & Root (KBR), the wrong size, that are laying in the sands of Iraq. 42,000 meals a day charged to the taxpayers by Halliburton and only 14,000 are actually served."
Senator Dorgan co-sponsored another measure that would create an oversight committe charged with investigating defense contractor fraud. It was shot down also. Said Senate Minority Whip, Dick Durbin (D-Illinois):
"I don’t understand why there isn’t a sense of outrage in this Congress on a bipartisan basis, on both sides of the aisle, that we are not only being ripped off as taxpayers by these no-bid contracts but that we are shortchanging these men and women who are risking their lives while we stand in the comfort and safety of this Senate," said the Illinois Democrat. "I know Halliburton is a big political force in this town. I know in some quarters you are not supposed to question Halliburton. This is some sacred institution politically. I don’t buy it. I count the soldiers that are putting their lives on the line to be much more sacred and much more valuable than any big, huge, no-bid corporation."
Shorter GOP on war profiteers: "Oversight? We don’t need no stinkin’ oversight."
Finally, this being my first post at FDL since YearlyKos, I wanted to highlight the incredible panel, "View from the Ground," led by Paul Rieckhoff, author of Chasing Ghosts: A Soldier’s Fight for America from Baghdad to Washington and executive director/founder of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA). The non-profit IAVA is "the nation’s first and largest group dedicated to the Troops and Veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the civilian supporters of those Troops and Veterans." (Read the IAVA’s section on "private contractors." Also, the IAVA is sponsoring a project on defense contractors called the "Follow the Money Project.")
Republicans claim they "support the troops" and paint Democrats on the other side of America’s men and women in uniform. However, the GOP-controlled Congress and White House slash veterans’ benefits and stab them in the back at will. They must really believe that lapel pins, yellow ribbon magnets, U.S. flags, and marching in lockstep with GOP "policy" is all it takes to "support the troops." Republicans talk tough — and have the t-shirts and bumper stickers to prove it — but seldom do they ever follow through on the rhetoric; be it body armor, veterans’ benefits, defense contractors running amok, or a viable Iraq policy that includes more substance than simply saying "stay the course." That’s not a plan. That’s a death sentence.
Democrats must take a strong stand in support of our returning vets and expose the empty Republican rhetoric for what it truly is: dangerously deluded.
To support true American heroes like Paul Rieckhoff, help the IAVA.
Other posts in this series:
"Merchants of Misery" and the "Do-Less-Than-Nothing" Congress (introduction), 04.29.06
Houston, We Have a Problem (Halliburton), 05.06.06
Friends in High Places (Bechtel), 05.20.06
Transforming Risk into Opportunity (Custer Battles), 06.03.06
Related posts:
- Electrocution Deaths: DOD IG Finds Multiple Failures by KBR, Military
- What Have We Done? Single Mothers Among New Homeless Vets
- Sen. Inouye to Join Republicans for Rape?
- DPC to Continue Drive for Oversight, Accountability for Iraq and Afghanistan Contractors
- George Bush Personally Sent Card, Gonzales to Thug Up Ashcroft





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gimme the “0″ Matt!
Rootz
Fitz! Roots!
General Dynamics received almost $10 billion in government contracts and made $1.42 million in political contributions (57% to Republicans) in the 2004 election cycle.
Now *that’s* what I call a return on investment!
Matt O.!
I thought you guys would all like to hear how Joementum is running on $10,000 of General Dynamics cash.
Browse his donors via the FEC website. It chock full of telecom, insurance, defense contractors and pharmaceutical donations.
Baron Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben, the gay German who aided George Washington in organzing our winning Continental Army !
I thought you guys would all like to hear how Joementum is running on $10,000 of General Dynamics cash.
Browse his donors via the FEC website. It chock full of telecom, insurance, defense contractors and pharmaceutical donations.
I would like for all the CT voters to hear about it.
Electric Boats is based in Groton CT at the Submarine Base there where I went to submarine school 15 years ago before being stationed on a Los Angeles class sub. This is a great article but donating to one of the Senators from the state where your company is actually building Billion dollar nuclear submarines isn’t really that damning. It’s just common sense.
I have no love for Holy Joe and can’t wait to see Ned kick his ass all over the Thames River in CT. But I just thought I’d point this out.
All in all this is an excellent post and thank you for it.
Couple of thoughts…
First, there seems to be no will within the GOP to get any kind of handle on the mismanagement of the billions of dollars appropriated during this abominable war.
Second, how much is the war profiteering affecting – or skewing, really – the country’s economic picture. Defense contractors are making money like crazy – is the feeling that we need the war in order to maintain the perception that the economy is pumping along (forgetting for the moment the real worries about inflation).
EEK – major thunderstorm – gonna sign off before the modem blows up!
I’m curious, Matt: when was the last time Lieberman voted against a defense appropriations bill?
Hey Matt O. — GREAT POST!!!
can the graphic be resized? It’s busting the frame wide right . . .
*ilson?
They bought Anteon for 2.2 billion?? LOL, they got taken for a ride. Anteon is full of so much hot air it isnt even funny. Their lack of substance and ingenuity in IT were the main reason I left the military elearning industry a few years back. This is too funny. Anteon’s complete existence bordered around making themselves seem organized and “process driven” just like the big boys at KBR/Raytheon/SAIC/GD just to ride along on their contracts as subs…I guess it worked in the end.
First, there seems to be no will within the GOP to get any kind of handle on the mismanagement of the billions of dollars appropriated during this abominable war.
What we call “waste, fraud, and abuse”, the Republicans call “profit”.
neurophius, it is inconceivable that Joenertia ever met a military appropriation he didn’t like !
Nate, I agree with you. It was meant to get people to look at Joe’s donations. It’s full of defense contractors, some based outside of Connecticut.
I’m not suggesting he’s crooked. I’m suggesting he has a vested interest in supporting the war.
I consider these things cut from the same cloth.
1. Start a war of choice so,
2. the billions spent to enrich the military-indsutrial complex (MIC)are billions that can’t be spent on education, health care, or research into clean and renewable fuel, and
3.outsource jobs to enrich the MIC, deprive the working class of resources, and force poor young people into the military, to fight wars then,
3. Go back to step 1, (Iran, anyone?) and repeat, until once again, the citizen serves the state, and the grand experiment in democracy is over.
I fully expect the Reichstag Fire stunt to be revisited.
ck –
I’ll see what I can do.
I fully expect the Reichstag Fire stunt to be revisited.
I think they’re trying to avoid that by hyping brilliant Reichstag Fire Plots Averted! successes.
better now?
*ilson
I guess we shouldn’t feel sorry for Joe if he doesn’t, by hook or by crook, get reelected to the Senate this November. Imagine the employment opportunities that await him. Is there a law that says members of Congress can’t become lobbyists for some period of time–a year, maybe–after leaving office? No problem, I’m sure the Bush administration can find Joe a comfortable place to sit until he can become a lobbyist.
Thanks Matt O! Another outstanding article. BTW, what reason/s did the Republicans give publically for voting down the amendments?
The utter waste and abuse of the military industrial complex is staggering. The military needs to be reduced to 10% of its size.
This bloated military is consuming all the resources which are needed by the people of this nation.
Too many people buy into the “mission” of the DOD as protecting america. It does nothing of the sort… and no nation or non nation is interested in or capable of attacking and occupying this nation. The worst harm that could be done is not worth the cost of this monster the DOD.
One of the priorities for progressives is to shrink the military and dispense with the insane systems like attack nuke subs, ICBMS, naval battle groups, fighter plans, huge bombers and the list goes on and on…
Thanks for reminding us once again of this shameful waste and abuse of our trust and our taz dollars.
Wasn’t it a former GOP president and career Army officer who gave us dire warnings about the “Military-Industrial complex”. As a Democrat, I sure wish that Republican were president today. I’d hazard a guess we would not be in Iraq today if he were. And the country would be in a whole lot better shape ‘generally’, than it is.
Much Better!!! mui bien!!!
How many omnipotent being are there in the FDL universe, anyway?
after Joe has spent his mandatory one year waiting period in prayer and reflection on how best to serve his community despite the awful shellacking he got at the polls, Joe will announce his intention to become a lobbyist!
Oklahoma kiddo –
That depends on which Ike you were talking about. 1950s Ike or 1960 Ike?
While the seeds of the Vietnam War are usually rested with the Versailles Treaty after World War II, American involvement was initiated under Ike’s watch.
Toward the end of his presidency, he probably wisened up to the MIC and warned against it.
the FDL universe has just one omnipotent being but many manifestations …
Eli at 14:
What we call “waste, fraud, and abuse”, the Republicans call “profit”.
What a normal person calls “criminals, corruption and coverups”, the Repugs call “family values”.
It’s all about gettin’ as much as you can…pigs in a trough!
after Joe has spent his mandatory one year waiting period in prayer and reflection on how best to serve his community despite the awful shellacking he got at the polls, Joe will announce his intention to become a lobbyist!
Who will periodically appear on telly to undermine his former “colleagues” and give Republican talking points that extra veneer of authenticity.
it is hard to believe that jomentum hasn’t switched parties yet.
Nate, I agree with you. It was meant to get people to look at Joe’s donations. It’s full of defense contractors, some based outside of Connecticut. -Matt O
Very good point Matt.
They bought Anteon for 2.2 billion?? LOL, they got taken for a ride. Anteon is full of so much hot air it isnt even funny. Their lack of substance and ingenuity in IT were the main reason I left the military elearning industry a few years back. -Kurotenshi
Exactly what I was thinking Kuro. I remember the Anteon clowns coming to install “upgraded” systems on our boat back in the early nineties. They “state-of-the-art” technology they were peddling was a joke. Most of the ET’s (Electronics Techs) in their young 20’s on board the boat were playing with more advanced technologies in their teens on gaming consoles. The Sonar techs used to have to teach the “specialists” from Anteon how to calibrate their own gear. It was a constant running joke on board.
Eisenhower has always kept his politics close to his chest … the liberal Americans for Democratic Action thought they could get him to run as a Democrat in 1948 …
the FDL universe has just one omnipotent being but many manifestations %u2026
Firegodlake?
it is hard to believe that jomentum hasn’t switched parties yet.
He switched parties years ago. He just runs as a Dem so he can get re-elected in a blue state.
Hey Matt O –
I posted a recipe for South Tucson Green Corn Tamales yesterday, in the Pull up a Chair thread.
It was from memory (like, before you were born?) and could use some current South Tucson updating . . .
What happened to my post? I just posted a good comment that was totally constructive and it vanished?
Eli
That’s right, just because Joe isn’t in the Senate anymore won’t stop the media from using him to provide “balance” as a “Democrat”…whenever they have a wingnut on. Of course, chances are he will agree with the wingnut…
What happened to my post? I just posted a good comment that was totally constructive and it vanished?
I never have that problem.
Nate at 5:29 pm –
It was either snagged by the spam filter, or the NSA will be knocking on your door shortly . . .
That’s right, just because Joe isn’t in the Senate anymore won’t stop the media from using him to provide “balance” as a “Democrat”%u2026whenever they have a wingnut on. Of course, chances are he will agree with the wingnut%u2026
This is why I seem to be the only liberal who thinks reviving the Fairness Doctrine would be a waste of time. They’d just use tools like Joe to provide a figleaf for the Republican narrative.
Nate
Christy has explained a number of times that some comments get caught in the Spam filter without regard to their merit, and with Jane gone it’s a big job to monitor them and get them posted.
ck –
I am not any kind of authority on such things. I am a California native and only been in Tucson since 2002.
Eli
“This is why I seem to be the only liberal who thinks reviving the Fairness Doctrine would be a waste of time.”
I said virtually the same thing in a comment under the Lapdogs post. Except in that case my example of the Democrat-for-all-seasons was Joe Klein. Take your pick.
V.G. –
That’s a good question. I couldn’t find anything with quotes or reasoning behind the vote. Just quotes provided by Bob Geiger from Dorgan and Durbin.
Ok… I’ll try this again.
Nate, I agree with you. It was meant to get people to look at Joe’s donations. It’s full of defense contractors, some based outside of Connecticut. -Matt O
Good point Matt. Without these contractors, Joe’s “funding” would likely dry up fast.
They bought Anteon for 2.2 billion?? LOL, they got taken for a ride. Anteon is full of so much hot air it isnt even funny. Their lack of substance and ingenuity in IT were the main reason I left the military elearning industry a few years back. -Kurotenshi
I was thinking the same thing Kuro. The technology that Anteon was peddling back when I was on a 688 Class was a running joke on board the boat. Most of the 20-something ET’s (Electronics Techs) on board the boat had played with more advanced technology in their home gaming systems in their teens. Our ST’s (Sonar Techs) used to have to teach the “specialists” from Anteon how to calibrate their own equipment. What a joke!
Matt O –
Haven’t you partaken of the greatest food delicacy in the universe –
South Tucson Green Corn Tamales?
I said virtually the same thing in a comment under the Lapdogs post. Except in that case my example of the Democrat-for-all-seasons was Joe Klein. Take your pick.
But is he “officially” a Democrat?
(And what *is* it about Joes and Jasons these days???)
V.G. — This kind of “analysis” is all I can get from papers:
http://www.buffalonews.com/edi…..070380.asp
Same with other papers showing how senators from that state voted.
I would say he is “rumored” to be a Democrat. But it’s often hard to tell.
Nate- As a moderator I am volunteering my time and have done so for many hours most days for the past several months. Valid comments can get caught in the spam filter and have to be checked individually, with an eye to figuring out the problem. I have to say that I am getting increasingly aggravated at the demanding tone voiced by commenters when for some reason their comment does not immediately appear. It is rude and it is inconsiderate.
I just tried again and it didn’t post. This time I copied it just in case. Can I mail it in? It’s relevant as it discusses Anteon. Not sure why it would get tagged as spam though. There were no cuss words and no reference to any government agencies or such. Just a post regarding Anteon’s “state-of-the-art” (/joke) technology they were forcing on the sub fleet and how they kept buying their influence and contracts through the above mentioned government influence peddling.
Very informative post, Matt O. Senator Dorgan is also helping kick-start an excellent hearing by the Democrats tomorrow (note the postscript below).
Right in line with today’s Lapdog theme and the mention of NPR, I was just inadvertently exposed to National Propaganda Radio’s latest Weekend Edition of All Trivia Considered, and noticed a very curious development.
The only bit of non-trivia I noticed during the hour-long broadcast was presented shortly after the top-of-the-hour news update, at the beginning of the pre-recorded program. In the careful kindergarten-level voice of its hostess, we were deliberately and obviously manipulated in the midst of a correspondent’s report from Iraq about the new Reconciliation proposal just made by Iraq’s Prime Minister. Seems to me that this particular segment ought to be a case study in deceptive propaganda and information-manipulation from an untrustworthy source of “news.” Talk about Pravda, Take 2.
The female correspondent in Iraq (with either an Australian or British accent) hemmed and hawed her way, with long pauses, to the answers she gave to the questions the hostess lobbed to her. The sound quality was excellent. She could have been in the same room with the questioner. She replied at length, though in an oddly stilted manner (someone holding a gun to her head…?), to the first 2 or 3 questions. She was then asked for the reaction of the American Ambassador in Iraq to this Iraqi proposal, which the hostess declared he had been working hard to help create. Immediately the correspondent was then heard, clear as a bell, saying ‘Could you repeat the question? I didn’t hear it.’ The hostess repeated her question with less detail. The response – again, clear as a bell: ‘I have a really bad line here…’ The hostess paused, and then asked – ‘Can you hear me now, so and so?’ No answer came back. And the hostess then proceeded to tell her kindergarten listeners – ‘Obviously we lost our connection with so and so – we’ll try again later’ or words to that effect. And that was the end of that (after a few quick soundbites from the Sunday morning shows).
The problem with all this? NOTHING that NPR puts on the air as part of All Things Considered, weekday or weekend (except its regular news/stock market updates with a different announcer) is LIVE. All Things Considered is PRODUCED almost to the point of oblivion. This is especially true in their one hour of pablum-only Weekend Edition, where obviously the main censors are off duty and politics is therefore verboten. Meaning that this alleged ‘technical glitch’ from Baghdad occurred probably HOURS before they took up part of their single hour today to play it for us in all its glory, instead of simply editing it out… Further meaning that they were unable or unwilling for some reason in the intervening time period to reconnect with Baghdad to finish the conversation OR to find a statement somewhere else about the feelings of the American Ambassador regarding this Iraqi peace proposal. [Note that a program broadcast at 5 p.m. in the (eastern and then later the rest of the) U.S. is being broadcast at 2 a.m. Baghdad time — so I imagine this interview was conducted many hours beforehand, yet NPR nevertheless didn’t edit out the awkward breakdown in the interview before airing it…]
“Trust us?” I think not. A bizarre and unsettling episode, to say the least. Just another reason for me to avoid NPR, and their sickening manipulation of reality, like the plague. [I think some of the major local public radio stations need to seriously consider a united move to stop paying for these nationally-produced disinformation programs from NPR, to get the message across - the weekend news programs are almost entirely devoid of content as it is.]
P.S. FYI, C-Span3 will be covering the 1:30 p.m. hearing Monday being put together by Senate Democrats to examine pre-war intelligence — witnesses include Paul Pillar, ex-CIA, Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell’s ex-Chief of Staff, Carl Ford of the state department’s INR bureau, and the Sunday Times of London reporter Michael Smith who broke the Downing Street Memo story.
ck – yahoo has a report about 5 shot at a Safeway Dist. Center in Denver (sorry, I haven’t figured out how to link yet). Looks like workplace violence… there is so much of this lately.
ck –
First two years in Tucson, ate using a meal plan so I was kind of limited on choices. Plus, outside foods had to be (a) within walking distance and, (b) cheap.
Last two years is mostly nearby fast food, pasta, ramen, home-cooked pizzas, etc.
Working for under $8/hour without a car dictates my eating habits.
Nate, try refreshing the page from your browser rather than the button. I see your comment both times.
Thanks Matt- I thought perhaps you had seen more background discussion.
Valley Girl… I appreciate the response and I wasn’t trying to use a “tone” of any kind. Just very surprised because it was the first time it had happened to me. Believe me I understand the need for site monitoring and am all for it.
Please excuse me if you thought I was out of line. I was only confused and I hadn’t seen the comments regarding issues with posts being caught in the spam filter. Thanks for following up though.
nate, it will be freed by the service desk in time
the term “Democrat” can be used by anybody. if one gets elected on the Democratic Party ticket: that certify you as a Democrat no matter what your positions are. If you are registered to vote as a Democrat OR choose to vote in the Democratic Party Primary, you are legally a Democrat.
In Congress: who you vote for in that first leadership election determines your party-naming.
For future reference Valley Girl… Is there a way to reach the site monitors directly via email for questions or requests? I notice in the “contacts” page it only lists email for the principals.
Nate, you are being a pain in the butt. Your comment was released from moderation. I have no f**king idea why it got caught in the spam filter. Have you tried reloading? Seems like something a sensible person would do. Your comment IS there.
Nate, I saw your comment and it reads:
And please feel free to delete any redundant comment posts or comments I made related to site questions that aren’t on topic with the discussion including this one. Thanks again.
NATE: Chill, please! I have personally released from spam-purgatory both of your comments up into FDL Heaven. Refresh your page and scroll upwards to see both comments…
Matt O –
You are a serious student — I went to Pima College way back when. Plus, it was a lot easier to live cheaply back then.
Anyway — if you haven’t had them, get together a bunch of friends and check out the green corn tamales.
Nate – that is hilarious! I remember it took months for us just to get something as simple as Flash/Flash Server implemented into the Navy requirements so that we could offer something a little bit more interactive than the level 1-2 interactions we were offering the Navy, when they in fact needed 3-4 level interactions in order to satisfy JTA/HLA realtime requirements when training from remote locations – and all that time they were claiming to offer applications like the ones Boston Dynamics creates to train carrier based personnel(which are great, and very much akin to what gamers would expect ~ http://www.bostondynamics.com ). I look back upon the contract proposals and how they were beefed up in order to attain contractual awards…it was embarrassing and incredibly demoralizing for those of us that really wanted to offer something substantive to the Navy curriculum.
all the highly-trained, unionized FDL moderators got laid off this last week so FDL could buy very expensive tranquilizers for the Poodles — the exchange rate for French medicines in Euros is terrible! This place is limping along with volunteer moderators — we just aren’t as skilled as ‘the regulars’
It’s been a hot afternoon . . .
Time for a nice cool pina colada or beer or whatever for our overheated guests . . .
#7: I remember reading in grade school that the revolutionary troops loved von Steuben, but they always left out the interesting parts. So, was he really? What is the evidence?
Can’t help myself, but the Eisenhower military-industrial complex quote was mentioned, and we might as well have it hear for our reference. Along with some other dead Republican quotes.
Maybe a strategy for the corporate media is to arm Democrats with dead Republican (mostly pre Nixon quotes). Catch the media in a double bind.
———–
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. […] Is there no other way the world may live?
“The Chance for Peace” – A speech given to the American Society of Newspaper Editors (16 April 1953)
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience…we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
Farewell speech as President (17 January 1961)
We stand equally against government by a plutocracy and government by a mob. There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations; even a democrat like myself must admit this. But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy, for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with “the money touch,” but with ideals which in their essence are merely those os so many glorified pawnbrokers.
Letter to Sir Edward Grey (15 November 1913)
Above from Wikiquote, search for names and you will find.
It matters not how powerful the individual may be who is in the service of the State, nor how much wealth and influence there may be behind him, nor how strenuously he may be supported by “big business” and by all that has been heretofore powerful and omnipotent in our political life, if he be the representative of Southern Pacific politics, or if he be one of that class who divides his allegiance to the State with a private interest and thus impairs his efficiency, I shall attack him the more readily because of his power and his influence and the wealth behind him, and I shall strive in respect to such a one in exactly the same way as with his weaker and less powerful accomplices. I prefer, as less dangerous to society, the political thug of the water front to the smugly respectable individual in broadcloth of pretended respectability who from ambush employs and uses that thug for his selfish political gain.
Hiram Johnson, First inaugural address, 1911 (first term as CA governor)
The essential thing with him is popular passion, not a political philosophy. He has no political philosophy. He has no real convictions.
http://www.governor.ca.gov/gov…..al_23.html
A Royalst biography of Johnson
Is he dangerous? He is, only if public passion becomes dangerous and only up to the point where the speakers of revolution pass from the stage and the doers of it rig up their chopping blocks.
http://www.publicbookshelf.com…..hn_ba.html
#69: very expensive tranquilizers for the Poodles
And nothing for the moderators? See where the real power lies. Anyone with a blog better treat the poodle reeeallll well.
Ok everybody… I don’t know how to be MORE sorry than I already am. Contrite, apologetic and asking for forgiveness. I was never trying to be rude or insulting in any way. I was just surprised so I asked a question about what happened.
-I love FDL!
-I think this is a superb post!
-I’m proud to have been able to comment on it with a tiny bit of first hand knowledge!
-I think the ‘crew’ here is absolutely Top Shelf!
-And I’m ALL FOR stringent monitoring of the threads…
So I’m metaphorically down on my knees begging forgiveness and hoping you all don’t have a bad impression of me! :-)
Pretty, pretty please forgive my impertenance and unfamiliarity with Wordpress commenting. If you need validation of my bonafides please ask JA at C&L about me.
oh, Schiess. Preview is not working here so I have an excuse. Read bottom of #70 as
It matters not how powerful the individual may be who is in the service of the State, nor how much wealth and influence there may be behind him, nor how strenuously he may be supported by “big business” and by all that has been heretofore powerful and omnipotent in our political life, if he be the representative of Southern Pacific politics, or if he be one of that class who divides his allegiance to the State with a private interest and thus impairs his efficiency, I shall attack him the more readily because of his power and his influence and the wealth behind him, and I shall strive in respect to such a one in exactly the same way as with his weaker and less powerful accomplices. I prefer, as less dangerous to society, the political thug of the water front to the smugly respectable individual in broadcloth of pretended respectability who from ambush employs and uses that thug for his selfish political gain.
Hiram Johnson, First inaugural address, 1911 (first term as CA governor)
http://www.governor.ca.gov/gov…..naugural_2 3.html
From a Royalst biography of Johnson
The essential thing with him is popular passion, not a political philosophy. He has no political philosophy. He has no real convictions.
Is he dangerous? He is, only if public passion becomes dangerous and only up to the point where the speakers of revolution pass from the stage and the doers of it rig up their chopping blocks.
http://www.publicbookshelf.com…..gton/hiram john_ba.html
Eisenhower was a loud and proud LIBERAL — he was promoted by FDR, who saw his potential, and made the most of it.
When FDR died, the first copy of LIFE Magazine had Ike on the cover — no article, just the cover photo. Do you think Henry Luce might have had an ulterior motive?
It’s okay, Nate — you were just a little over heated there . . .
OT – Tester/Burns debate on C-SPAN (repeat)
10:00 PM EDT tonight.
We have to understand that the Republican party as we now know it does not believe in this government or its institutions. In the nineties, because of their limited access, they were bent on limiting or minimizing it. Now that they’ve had a taste of the money, its bigger than ever. But all it is to them is a vehicle for power and profit.
Once we understand this, we will no longer be bewildered by Congress’ abdication of its oversight responsibilities or the rampant corruption. It’s what these people want. It’s how they operate.
Expecting a Republican Congress to investigate war profiteering is like expecting a bank robber to put the money back. Of course, people of good will would return the money, except people of good will don’t rob banks.
Cozumel – Thanks! Been looking for it.
Nate, sorry but Kobe does not think you are contrite enough and has told the Markos flunky -no bones for you anymore. You are banished from the Realm of Left Thought. The Iron Door is Closed.
But, hey, so what? You make a good point about the practical politics of being a Senator in a state with large naval shipyards and facilities. But for other commenters, what that has to do with supporting the war in Iraq is beyond me. Not too many subs depend on that war. Lieberman can’t use that as any kind of excuse. Seems untterly unrelated to me.
Anyway, the CT shipyards *build* stuff, that actually *works* most of the time. What does that have to do with Bushco Iraq logistics philosophy?
ck #74: you saying Eishenhower running as a Republican was tactics, after too much Dem presidents?
I agree that the Corporate-Military complex is Way out of control in proportion to the other ’sectors’ of the economy, i.e. Education, health, etc.
However, your average worker in defense, there are alot of them, is not a fatcat. If lets say, he/she takes home a $1000 a week, it All goes immediately back into the economy. Most Americans have a negative savings rate. Bottom line is that defense worker’s paychecks fuel local economies, and that’s why some people support Corporate-Military Complex spending, even when a little voice in their heads occasionally says it’s nuts in the long run for the country’s best interest.
Cut off defense spending suddenly and local economies would collapse.
Reminds me of the joke about the old farmer who was told to install indoor plumbing by the Building Code Officer, for the good of the public safety, after using his Out House for 75 years. So he finally stopped using his Out House so he could start enjoying his new indoor plumbing and a week later his well when dry.
.
OK, Nate – I’m sending you to the cafeteria for a cookie. But first, stop by the nurses office to get your anti-KingpinKosophobia vaccination. And no crying.
And to all moderators, especially the most talented Valley Girl, we love and appreciate you more than you’ll ever know. Thanks for all you do for us.
in fact, the Occupation of Iraq diverts resources away from naval expenditures — submarines dont work too far up the Euphrates River …
#81: true, but same thing could be said for building sidewalks, schools and training programs for ex-felons. The money will cycle back. And something useful for economic productivity will result. So actually the above would be better. Can you say that about the next Osprey (which is still being funded, last I heard, is that right?) Or the next $80,000 a year private Iraq security guard they hire?
actually Nate was just trying to show how properly rabid and venemous he could get — welcome to FDL !
Nate- it has just been a terribly hard few weeks at FDL. Christy is stretched to her limits with Jane being gone, and everyone is obviously upset about the death of Jane’s mother. And, once people got the idea that there might be some extra help behind the scenes in the form of volunteer moderators, people became more demanding. Plus, they were being rude to each other and getting into trivial fights. It really has been quite wearing for me, at least, and my patience has worn pretty thin. I try to do my best. Both Jane and Christy have commented several times of the past months that sometimes they can’t see why particular comments are caught in the spam filter. Obviously, for everyone’s benefit, it would be the best if the spam filter was perfectly tuned. Frankly, I think that the WP options for this are fairly primitive. And, by the way, the there is a huge amount of spam. At the same time we are looking at discussion comments we are also trying to catch spam that has slipped through the filters. The spammers are always one step ahead. The fact that FDL is pretty much spam free is not just a happy concidence. I trust that explains a bit more fully why I reacted as I did.
The moderation here is excellent, a thankless task done wonderfully. When time permits at appropriate opportunity, I agree with commenter who wanted to see what you have to filter out. VG: that is not a suggestion for you, so don’t get mad. But if I am moderator any time, I would probably record them, if it is possible.
If any moderators feel unloved, I could try it for a post. After being banned from ever doing it again, no other moderator would ever get any complaints.
ck –
As I was reading your comment, the power at my house cut out for 2 seconds and I had to restart the computer. Did you have similar difficulties?
I think its a lightning storm by way of monsoon out right now.
Matt O…
What you say is true re: the Treaty of V. And it WAS during Ike’s tenure that American involvement in Nam began, with advisors. And who knows what else. Things were different then though. Even New Deal FDR types feared Russia and China and it seemed that most everyone in the ’50’s and ’60’s subscribed to the domino theory and endorsed American response to the cold-war. But given what we now have roaming the White House, I’d have to say “I like Ike”. Shoot, I’d be just as comfortable with Hoover, as I am with Bush. Actually, I think I’d take 50’s or 60’s Ike right now. Great post! As usual.
And *ilson46201…33
I know exactly what you mean about Ike’s close to the vest ideology. And certainly agree with you. But compared to what now occupies the presidency, I’d take Ike in a heartbeat precisely because of his seemingly un-attachment to political dogma.
when Roosevelt was starting the Atom Bomb project, he called in the Chair of the Appropriations Cmte who was from Tennessee. FDR asked if he could hide in the budget this rather expensive project. The answer: “Sure! Where in Tennessee do you want to hide it?” Thus we got Oak Ridge …
ck –
I will have to try them. I like trying new tastes.
E*ward Teller’s made a valid point, without mentioning the underlying truth –
The Alaska Bridges To Nowhere are only pork barrel boondoggles, because the GOP has made government spending the enemy.
If we taxed the hell out of all the GOoPer donors that are trying to repeal the Estate Tax, we could have our Electric Boat Yards AND Bridges to Nowhere!!!
meta- thanks. I’ve been doing this for quite a while in relative obscurity until Jane outed me, with thanks. A certain other person here is a much more recent recruit, and still seems to have his sense of humor intact. Please step forward if you wish to take a bow, Mr. X.
just call me “V”
ck #92
That’s what I’m saying.
Supposedly these people (Republican lawmakers and their followers) are for fiscal responsibility and less government waste of taxpayer money.
However, the utter refusal to save taxpayer money and hand over dufflebags full of cash to corporate donors in the defense industry debunks that faux stance.
Real fiscal conservatives (or conservatives proper) should be on the Democrats’ side on this issue.
ck #92: it’s the libertarian New Deal? Earmarks. House Reps as publicly paid private agents for big doners and voting blocs in home district. Maybe that is why wingnut libertarians still support them. They figure, well, at least it ain’t a stinking program. Implicit election and Congressional voting market in votes and earmarks, you get what you pay for, etc.
They can rationalize it.
GentlemenJim,
We need to open up new industries for all the MIC works… there is pleanty of infrastructure to rebuild in every state.. to emply these workers.
It is insane to have an economy which employs a huge segment of workers for the war machine. All that does is make us believe that we need the war machine and are.
Unfortunately the transition from the MIC to a non MIC economy may be a bit of a bumpy road… but the sooner we get on with it… the better it will be for the workers, the communities where the live, the nation as a whole and the world which receives the effects of our military adventurism.
We must put the MIC away.. shrink it big time.
wrt the Miami warehouse terror plot, I can’t seem to find an address or anything….it’s like a dead end story. Its like a Hollywood movie……
http://www.signonsandiego.com/…..ation.html
Real fiscal conservatives (or conservatives proper) should be on the Democrats’ side on this issue.
That’s like one o’ them, whaddyacallit, “thought experiments”, right?
I think this post and oilfieldguy’s post make a nice contrasting pair. Which approach is better? Which approach would be better for sensible decisions re civilian and military spending?
much of that ideology of fiscal conservatism was developed against popular, needed and expensive social programs. they couldnt argue directly against spending for hospitals so they cloaked it as a fiscal matter – economic prudency!
much of that ideology of fiscal conservatism was developed against popular, needed and expensive social programs. they couldnt argue directly against spending for hospitals so they cloaked it as a fiscal matter – economic prudency!
Social welfare bad.
Corporate welfare good.
Matt O., apologies for any distraction from your important article and the ongoing discussion. But I needed to give my perspective.
No one is going to reveal the terms and rules that are used to snag spam on the site. That would be like giving the spammers an instruction book as to how to avoid the filters. Oh, I’ll give you one hint- don’t put up anything in Chinese (characters) with stuff like hot girls 4U free.
Oh, I’ll give you one hint- don’t put up anything in Chinese (characters) with stuff like hot girls 4U free.
I’m out.
VG #103: spam is not interesting, and you are correct, even to show one example might give away the rules. Sometimes I am curious about the trolls, the quasi-trolls, what the close calls are, or if there is an agreemnt to let trollish comments go through when in doubt.
But, that is for another time, I suppose.
wesgpc @ #70
I have to laugh whenever I read these Eisenhower quotes, because what Eisenhower actually did regarding defense was quite different than the speechmaking (which, in large part was the product not of Eisenhower, but of his speechwriter, Malcolm Moos, who created the phrase military-industrial-congressional complex, with Eisenhower removing the latter descriptive term).
Eisenhower, in fact, used the CIA as previous presidents had used the Marines. The Bay of Pigs misadventure was created on his watch–likely because he thought Nixon was sure to win (note that it was Eisenhower, late in the 1960 campaign, who cut off diplomatic relations and initiated an embargo against Cuba, because those actions strengthened Nixon’s hand), and it was likely that Nixon would have used U.S. troops to support the invasion.
Beyond that, from my research, it was Eisenhower’s first Sec. of Defense, Charles E. Wilson, who created the plan to create the military-industrial complex–that made the Pentagon and the private contractors wholly dependent upon each other.
And, it was under Eisenhower that military spending remained at 3.5-4 times that of peacetime levels (in constant dollars) after the end of the Korean War.
More to the point of the original post, though, we have seen this kind of corruption before, and it is a direct result of the Pentagon being awash in money. Operation Ill Wind was the DoJ prosecution of corruption in the `80s under Reagan and Bush. The situation was so bad then that there were almost a thousand investigators and prosecutors were involved.
And, it’s worse now, because much more money is involved, and the DoJ leadership, under both Ashcroft and Gonzales, has been corrupt, as well.
The point that should have been learned in the `80s & `90s, and wasn’t, is that the Pentagon uses its money better and more wisely when on an austerity budget.
Congress is as much a part of this as the administration and the contractors. They’re all just plain scared of being accused of “not supporting the troops” that they’ll agree to open-ended supplemental war appropriations that simply scream abuse and fraud. It’s been that way with them for a long, long time, back to the late `40s.
Matt O –
No outages here — but we had serious thunderstorms yesterday. The rain was most welcome. Tucson’s climate is very similar to Denver’s — 10 degrees hotter, 60% of the precipitation. We have more winter, though . . .
The Green Corn Tamales are great — check out the recipe in yesterday’s thread. If you have minimal cooking (and freezing) facilities, they are cheap and easy to make. Perfect microwave food.
and let us mention that Kennedy ran against Nixon on a phony “missile gap” which required lots more unnecessary military spending …
Eli
That’s like one o’ them, whaddyacallit, “thought experiments”, right?
By that comment, I meant the people who actually believe the nonsense conservatives spout about cutting back on government spending, e.g. RedState.
But I believe your comment here is dead on:
Hey CK, thanks for sticking up for me.
Supposedly C-SPAN’s going to run the Tester-Burns debate right now or in 1/2 hour.
*ilson46201 #107
Very true. I had read several reports in political journals about that very thing with actual figures. (Of which the exact numbers escape me.)
ck #106
Looking forward to it.
wesgpc at 6:18 pm –
It’s a Corporate Crook New Deal — the best investment in America is buying your very own Congresscritter. It’s some where between a 100 to 1 and a 1000 to 1 return on investment.
in the 1980’s military equipment contractors discovered the trick of subcontracting out parts of major projects all over the country so that many more Congresscritters had vested interests in their Districts for a new bomber or missile …
#106: Thanks. I am not under any illusions abot Eisenhower. But similar things could be said of Truman, and Kennedy. It is a very mixed bag. Compare installation of Shah of Iran with Suez crisis. If the situation now were not so decayed and disgraceful, there might be no room for such quotes. But I like quotes from dead Republicans to use a rhetorical tools, to see if thre is any remaining shame to be invoked. I like to have some dead Republican quotes or ideas when discussion things with rational people still under sway of current version of GOP, which includes many people who have given up on Bush, but do not realize BushCo is Congressional GOP as well as Executive operation.
And I quoted TR and Hiram Johnson too. They were more real progressive deals.
wespgc- that may be one that *ilson can address, briefly, without being too specific. Troll trolls are relatively easy to spot. Borderline comments are usually set aside until a second opinion can be gotten. Jane and Christy are the bosses, and have final say so. I just try to do what I think they would want, based on what they’ve told me.
in the 1980’s military equipment contractors discovered the trick of subcontracting out parts of major projects all over the country so that many more Congresscritters had vested interests in their Districts for a new bomber or missile %u2026
Yep. It’s not waste, fraud ane abuse when it’s providing jobs for *your* district. Convenient.
There is nothing wrong with military pork — even less with infrastucture pork. There is a huge problem paying for it with our children’s credit card.
In Florida, the schools have F-Cats. If a school does not perform well, it can and will be closed. They are in the poor sections, of course. Aren’t these schools the places where people vote? I wonder if anyone ever “fixed ” the test scores just to close down the poll.
Right now in Florida, there are hundreds of thousands of sq. footage being planned for construction. But not for schools, of course. Churches, churches and churches. I belong to Constructionjournal.com . It is a pretty interesting website for those in the Construction business. It lists every project going on along with great contact info. They will give you a free pass to check it out. We pay around $3,000. a year and get coverage from about 15 different counties. Search words like ministry, evangelical or church and you will literally freak out. Either someone is changing polling stations to churches or I need to get the heavy duty foil for my hat.
ck –
I half-agree with you.
Some military pork is completely unnecessary. The National Missile Defense would be one. It won’t work and it is the wrong direction — from a defensive perspective — in the current geopolitical climate.
Also, I think an overly militarized nation will lead to more military conflict. Presidents want to take their new toys that go “boom” out for test drives every once in a while.
But I do agree with you that there is a huge problem with paying for it on our childrens’ dime.
EDITED for spelling of “militarized.”
for me, trolls are like pornography: its hard to define but I know it when I see it. Obvious trolls are deleted as instantly as possible — borderline cases are usually removed to a purgatory and I let somebody else delete it (or restore it).
Words also trigger moderation. The word for the ‘male generative organ’ is a no-no. Slur words too are caught. Interestingly enough, some words associated with nuclear technology that goes ‘boom’ also hits a trigger. Wouldn’t want to upset NSA & Gonzalez ya know!
oooh! General Dynamics – takes me back a few! just got done with some States project stuff but can’t wait to dig in on this!
GD controls southeastern CT and has been a dangerous party to the economy there and to the world (Tridents R Us!)
To be obnoxisouly wonky, a lot of the legislative, adminstrative and legal machinery for military-industrial complex is from WWI, and Wilson. That is how FDR could get away with his secret help, how US could ramp industrially so quickly after Pearl Harbor. So Ike and Truman’s efforts were more like refining something that had been invented 30 years before and then gown up real big during WWII.
I don’t know the politics of why the machinery lay largely unused in inter-war period. I guess early agri-business and banks were the ones with the cash to buy Congressman in the 20s and they only needed some Marines in Cental America.
Burns vs Tester (the Montana US Senate seat) coming up on C-SPAN in ten minutes. It isn’t live. Apparently, Tester tears Burns a new one. Their first one on one.
Thanks Matt. This whole series would make an excellent read for the next Democratic attorney general of the U.S.
Ed*ard Teller #124
Thanks for the heads-up. I am looking forward to this one.
Thanks op99!
Matt O –
You need to ask around for the best Green Corn Tamale resturants in South Tucson.
When I lived there, the best place was just west of 6th Ave — a big square white building. The best carna seca chimichangas were at a place on 6th Ave. I was introduced to them by a Tucson native, that knew Linda Ronstadt from childhood. I’m sure it’s changed, but those are some of the best memories of Tucson.
OT- but op99’s comment re: AG made me think of this: Matt O., have you considered going to law school before you run for political office?
this may be very unpopular, but I am against military pork– we already know how to make war and threaten and kill and I am also against the current space program for exploration of another planet we can ruin. If we don’t take care of what we have and what we have wrecked, we are doomed. I want my tax dollars and energy going into preservation of the planet and a way to overcome avarice and hatred and b.s.
Might sound puling, but nobody has done it with vigor and decades of dedication. Who knows? I think it’s worth a try.
I have CSPAN on with the sound off, waiting for Tester. George Allen is on the screen speaking to a state convention in Iowa. I can’t stand his smarmy face, but it’s not as bad with the sound off. I hope he gets knocked out of the ‘08 running early on so we don’t have to see a lot of him.
OT – The 40-Year-Old Virgin Executive
snip
“One senior NBC executive said, “There will probably be one to two hours of long-form taped shows every night in prime time.” The executive spoke on condition of anonymity because the decisions were not final and would affect some of the prime-time hosts, like Rita Cosby, Tucker Carlson and Joe Scarborough, now working on the channel.
Two of the channel’s hosts, Chris Matthews of “Hardball” and Keith Olbermann of “Countdown,” clearly will not be affected, because MSNBC’s managers consistently cite those programs as long-sought breakthroughs.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06…..r=homepage
See ya later Rita Cosby, Tucker Carlson and Joe Scarborough. Heh Heh
more thoughts on montag #106, re military does better on tight budget: From last three national general elections, I believe more and more that basic emotions play bigger role in debate, both in average voter and bigshots than precise rational arguments. I call it limbic system politics, others have other terms. So, if you gon’t get the gut level story straight, everything else is hot air.
I’ve read conservative security experts and economists arguing that military waste is a good thing. You gotta get the “creative destruction” juices flowing, needs to be money enough to try out apparently bad ideas that might really be good, people and programs need room for mistakes otherwise creativity is smothered.
That argument is never used for any civilian program, since gut level reasoning is that it ain’t worth a damn anyway, and less is better always, and leeches and parasites that work there will never do anything useful.
So, even if Ike ain’t so liberal, he, like FDR, Truman, TR, Reagan, and (sometimes) Clinton. And apparently Feingold, from the clip I watched today. And Rove too, except that is big vision on very bad speed and lots of rotgut, with parallel effort by media to debase debate rapidly enough to make the swill acceptable people who should no better. I mean, people who can repair their cars, do sports stats and figure out complicated recipes fall for it, even though their activities show they are smart enough not to have to.
Going to watch debate now. Thanks for heads up ET.
Even with the sound off, Georgie is a gagger for me, neurophius.
Matt O.
Dayam! An exhaustively researched piece. You are apparently a learned student who benefitted from the brilliance of an outstanding instructor in research (winking at VG).
I guess the bottom line is who is benefitting from the invasion and occupation of Iraq? It doesn’t look like it’s Iraq, or our soldiers and their families or the American taxpayers. Most likely it’s all them underlined names in your article, huh. Vultures getting fat from misery. Truly sick.
Angie- I am with you on that.
OFG
I just left a comment for you deep in the EPU zone under your OKC post.
Oh, for goddness sake, I even previewed it this time:
meant to say
So, even if Ike ain’t so liberal, he, like FDR, Truman, TR, Reagan, and (sometimes) Clinton *could put across the gut level story.*
Burns will conclude: “But I can bring the pork! Waaaaaaaaa”
Sen. Burns has already wrapped himself in the War on Terra.
But he hasn’t said “nine-eleven” yet.
Strategy to “win”?
Uhh… it takes more than going out there and saying “win one for the gipper.”
OFG- hi. Very nice post earlier. Sorry I wasn’t around to participate in the discussion. Surely you must know that Matt O.’s gifts for research and writing are wholly his own. And quite amazing. I’m not sure that sort of thing can be “taught”. Matt O. and I have never met, BTW.
oops, there he goes. “Cut and run.” Twice!
give him, oops, I was going to say 30 seconds…….911…cut and run……
The airports were closed on 9/12 weren’t they?
Conrad Burns asked: “How many people got on planes on September the 12th?”
But, if I recall correctly, the airports in the U.S. were closed weren’t they?
Burns: How many people got on the plane on September the 12th?
Ah, no one. They were GROUNDED, idiot.
compare Tester’s hands to Burns’s. Tester – worker; Burns – ?
How big an issue is terrorism in Montana? It doesn’t seem like much of a target…
State Dept. spread thin? Go John!
Appeasement led to 9/11! Is he blaming Clinton?
VG,
I remember you saying how much you regret not making it to YKos and the opportunity to meet matt O. Seems like I remember something about you helping him in research. I’m a real duffer in that area. I had my blog about a month befire I learned how to cut and paste URL’s with a browser to form links. I would write the URL’s down in a notebook and then type them where I needed them.
Clinton’s fault, that m’f’er!
neurophius – they’re worried about the angry sheep. David Brooks told Montanans about them.
ROFL Ed*ard. Are they ready to unleash the venom?
Tester is informed and aggressive on Iraq. Not taking any shit off of Burns.
I don’t get c-span, durn. Keep it coming fellas
Looks Burns down, condescendingly!
Yeah, Connie – keep cuttin’ those heads off!
Now Burns is lying about the NSA wiretapping.
“It’s legal. They have proven that!”
9/ll…
Burns-only tapping legal subjects – proof in no attacks since Sept. 11, ‘01.
we must win! Not like other wars. Slips up on ya & takes your freedom.
I think Burns is putting all his chips on 9/11. I think he’s said it 4 or 5 times already. I sense a disturbance in the Rove side of the Force…
Matt O,
sorry for derailing a really greast thread, but this is starting to get pretty funny. Stewart and Colbert must be salivating.
Burns is tying the War on Drugs to what? The Patriot Act?
Yes, bring up the missed opportunity after 9/11! Tester for Senate.
I figured we’d hear from Jane by now. I hope she’s alright.
I like Tester! He just quoted G.W. after 9/11: “Go shopping!”
OFG- nope. No help from me on his research. Maybe I posted a few links? I *was* asking Matt O. at some point if he would write my grant proposal for me. Maybe that’s what you remember.
Ed –
No worries. I am in on the conversation with regards to the Burns/Tester debate.
Tester: “The Patriot Act–we penalize our own people first!”
Tester – Bush squandered – Go Shopping.
Need LShip. PersStory – lose GWOT if we change liberties. FISA is good; Senate needs to C & B; We don’t take away our Freedoms!
Matt O.- are you watching CSPAN Tester Burns?
Container security, borders – money dist suggests HLand Sec not thought out.. Lost liberties.
The kid’s very studious in making his point. Easy going, tall dark and handsome. I wish great things for you Matt O. (talking to you rather than about you ;))
Tester sounding rational about homeland security. Not sure there’s long-term plan out there.
Whoa! Burns: “We’ve lost no liberties and we’ve lost no freedoms!” Fucking liar. Does anybody believe him?
Does Burns not know the government is looking at our bank records?
My GIRLFRIEND can’t look at my bank records, but Bush can?
Uhh…
V.G. — Yes I am.
Go into the saloon and play yer piano, you knucklehead dingleberry. seems you forgot the Marines — it’s not the same, man!
Burns: ” We’ve lost no liberties and no freedoms.”
Go home and worry about meth.
Is that Burns’s real accent or is it faux, like Shrub’s? Oh, shit! War on drugs – Patriot Act.
Burns – no one complains about liberties.
Meth is the real evil!?!
I get a kick out of Jon, the way the Lib mind works – he’d sacrifice security.
Tester not serious about security!
Burns: “I’m not sure he’s serious about the security of this country.”
What a royal asshold. Get him, John!
Tester: “Why haven’t you done something about” homeland security?
Tester – 5 yrs, only Pat Act is all?
Be serious – 2nd amendment stands, Pat Act takes away freedoms.
From your comments I guessed you were- just checking. No TV here.
The Patriot Act dint take away anny freeeeeeeedoms– Burns. We’re gonna let that go. I want to take them all out!
Burns-you would give them the tools, if you were sitting in the Oval when it hit – The Lib mind says WE GIVE. Flag! We’re not survieling local.
John: “The Patriot Act takes away freedoms.”
Burns is questioning Tester’s patriotism in my opinion. “The liberal mind…well, now, you know, we don’t want to take away anyone’s rights…I want to take away all of their (terrorists’) rights!”
Tester – same intelligence you trust got us into Iraq!
Now on to hurricanes. Can Burns work in 9/11 or cut and run on this question?
VG,
What you’re missing is the beginning of the end of GOP control of the US Senate.
Hopefully I can catch a replay in a motel somewhere.
Maybe it is the crystal meth that’s making the sheep in Montana so angry. Time to build an electric fence to nowhere?
Burns – FEMA waste & fraud:
throw money at problems? Couldn’t predict force of storm(s)!
300 buses drowned. No Comm; locals bad, Bush good. Inept locals, FEMA, but We responded.
Burns bloviating about Katrina…devasting storm blah blah blah…you don’t need all this money…I knew it was wrong at the time…school buses underwater weren’t FEMA’s responsibility…maybe we ought to have a 15 year old running the place down there..(huh?)
Not going to argue the ineptness of FEMA…the waste was terrible but it will be rectified…
Katrina corruption?
Burns– brings up Shoe cartoons! uh, it was a combination of things, three storms hit, and I was talking to everybody and I gave them the money and all those buses were under water and maybe we need a 15 yr old to run it. It is the fault of the local and state. this was terribul.
Ouch! An overt racist remark on NOLA “Maybe we should have a [white?] fifteen-year-old running things down there,” brings the biggest laugh from the audience so far in the debate.
Tester – Levees needed help BEFORE. Response time lacking (FED); cited date of Katrina! FEMA failed in prep. Cronies to blame in part.
Tester: they saw the storm coming for several days, no preparation whatsoever…political cronies as heads of agencies, you need professionals.
yuh-huh, ET– tried to filter that my own self. OUTRAGEOUS!
Note to dem debaters. The republicans have been in the drivers seat. They are responsible or, failing that, irresponsible. There is only so much “bad luck” the American people can stand.
Tester – immigration – balance:
on table for long time; Americas blind eye. No amnesty, get in line, follow rules. Adequate funds for borders; concludes-no fences or walls – enforce existing law.
Tester on immigration: no amnesty. Get in line just as my ancestors did. Make sure port security is adequately funded. Canadian border is not secure. But not in favor of wall.
Oh Mr. Burns is so worried about those beautiful illegal immigrants dying at the Ca-yo-tes hands.
NICE.
Burns: feels sorry for the way the coyotes treat the Mexican immigrants. asks John: would you have voted for the bill that was passed by the Senate?
John: No amnesty; adequate resources for borders and ports; better trade agreements; laws to encourage employers to hire Americans
Burns has gotten bricks in the mail and wants more.
Burns: “I’m glad you’ve taken my position” on amnesty.
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs…..38;Code=CS
just got it on the internet. Burns sounds like a whacko. Send some more bricks?
Burns: demanding to know how John would have voted on imm. bill.
Tester: I told you what I would have in that bill. I’d have to see what all was contained in it.
Tester has lived in Montana longer than Burns?
Burns:
Bracero didn’t work. Coyotes are scum.
Jon – don’t worry about ports!
Q-Jon – would you have voted for recent leg?
No amnesty, enforcement, trade agreements.
Burns: stop flood of imm.
Burns tries to be quaint, condecending, folksy. Fucker.
Tester – long term impacts, don’t force 3rd world countries into poverty.
Burns: he and John have same position on imm., so “why change” senators?
Suggestion for Tester…
Abramoff, Abramoff, Abromoff, Abramoff, Abramoff, Abromoff, Abramoff, Abramoff, Abromoff, Abramoff, Abramoff, Abromoff, Abramoff, Abramoff, Abromoff….
Well, Burns, I could probably think of a few reasons to change…
Security on the Northern border? That was not the question. It was not a question about the borders. Man, Burns likes to talk about his house.
Burns – border:
Seal border gives us time. They are here illegally, they know it. 2-911 hjackers came thru Canada.
BURNS HAS NOTHING but TPoints.
Jon-imm tracking failures speaks volumes. Tech could make it better.
Burns wandering, getting incoherent, repeating himself…
Tester: we do agree on no amnesty, securing the borders, but why can’t we keep track of where the immigrants are? Let’s focus on making sure they are following the rules (in employment)
Burns: My roof, my ruff! Must be an illegal and I’ll shoot the tar outta them.
Tester: for renewable energy. See what we did on wind energy in the legislature. It employs people. So does ethanol. Sounds knowledgable on renewable energy.
Burns: Takes credit for the wind farm in Montana. Takes credit for having coal in Montana. We need to build a refinery. Says he’s for a stronger energy bill. Tax credits for coal and gas. Sell the coal! Long term contracts with the military. The marketplace will take care of it. Need leadership. Democrats are shutting down our efforts.
That 30 years with no new or expanded refineries in the USA is a blatant lie the right wingnuts keep spouting out. Alaska has expanded refinery output by 200% during those 30 years.
Tester: Democrats crippling the process? Last time I checked, Republicans controlled all 3 branches of government.
Burns: Did you oppose Sam Alito? (going on a tangent)
Jon: ANWAR isn’t enough oil to solve our problems. Need long term solutions.
Tester – energy independence:
Have to. Priority.Gov Brian – good – coal, nat gas; incredible potential in renewables, wind is good and in place locally. Ethanol from more than corn – straw.
Veg oil prod serves more than one renewable source.
Burns – energy bill! Me and Pete Dom (NM) did that. Germany ran WW2 on coal to gas!
No refineries built…
Indep is goal. COAL IS KEY. BULLSHITING NOW. Liberals stop energy prod.
Jon-we promoted renewables. DC needs LShip. RETHUGS control DC – blame libs?
Burns-oppose Alito? Burns tries to humiliate. Burns-ANWR? Tester – long term matters, NWR sh term.
Let’s send a telepathic message:
Abramoff! Abramoff! Abramoff!
does anyone know how much GD stock the Carlyle Group owns?
Burns says Democrats won’t let him make fertilizer.
Burns: he’s for tax relief, Tester isn’t.
Seems to me like Tester is taking Burns to pieces. Or is Burns just self- destructing? Or am I a whacko liberal?
Tester is sharp. Burns blows a lot of hot air. Sounds like someone who’s been in Washington too long.
Tester: my folks taught me to have a balanced budget. Burns is a borrower and spender. don’t pass your debts on to your kids.
Burns has no ethics or values whatsoever. Only bought and paid for talking points, pathetic.
Burns: it’s all the Democrats’ fault.
It’s all Clinton’s fault.
(can anyone say “budget surplus”?)
Burns – agriculture:
finally got a bill…
Long time.. (HARD WORK?)
Farmers want their cks.
Prevent energy explor – at your peril, Jon.
Kill death tax (WTF?) Jon for higher taxes – doesn’t want tax relief.
Jon-Need family farm support. Not same old. New crops, yields. Research dollars to small, not big AG.
War in Iraq, and we cut taxes? Borrow & spend GOP. Don’t pass debt to kids!”that’s not right.”
Burns – Dems killed LineItemVeto. Clinton spent 5% GDP, we’re at 2.9%. Jon vote3d for tax increases. HE’S SPINNING, throwing number.
Jon-KILLS BURNS ON DEFICIT! BURNS FLATDFOOTED! Spend like drunken sailors!.Clinton paid down defecit.
Tester: Burns spends money like a drunken sailor.
Burns: takes credit for Clinton surpluses.
Any FDL’er would mop the floor with Burns. Geeze! LOSER!
diogenes, you have their template. Our job is to break the mold.
Tester: closing strong. Optimistic. Long term vision, leadership. I’m a leader. I will do the job for you like it’s never been done before.
Again, Matt O, sorry for hijacking your fine thread, but – hey! – this was a classic.
Close:
Jon:
It’s about DC versus Montana. Fights for Montana. Works w/Governer. Time for change – send Montanan; create jobs, keep kids here – long term thinking.
WOW.
Burns:
Pic of GChild. When I went to DC, Montana stagnent. Now, more Montanans working. I am the employment guru. Rural Montana learning. BBand here. Cites BBand stats. Progress, vision for future. SPINS, SPINS, etc. Loves our open spaces. Got people together, sealed culture. Cites Ag Science PORK!
Burns: talking about grandchild. Montana had a stagnant economy. Taking credit for the state’s economic success. Taking credit for pork. We’ve funded education, health care, broadband…low unemployment…progress…Internet…vision…wehave a dream…wildlife habitat…[hey, he’s responsible for everything good that’s happened in Montana]
Wow – Burns looked a million yrs old, and tired from DC food, not hard work in Montana. Tester is impressive – In a JG sort of way – Tester a very attractive candidate!
That’s all, folks.
This is the first time I’ve seen Tester on TV. He has a lot on the ball. I’m glad I sent him money. Burns looks obselete.
Where is Burns from? Sounded like he wasn’t born in Montana.
Hope you didn’t mind, Matt.
Sounds like I missed a Donneybrook.
Burns was born in Missouri. I think he said he’s been in Montana since ‘62?
OFG- I ended up watching it on the internet. Link above.
Preznit #120 – They own the controlling/voting interest in GD.
Valley Girl – I’m sorry I’m just now getting back to thank you for replying and following up with me. I was so worried I’d offended you guys I thought I better step away before I talked myself into a hole. Is there a way to reach you in confidence, i.e. an email address? Or if need be and your comment mgt app lets you view comments from very old threads, I could probably post one there for you. It’s just something I can’t let be public knowledge.
OFG – if you want it…
Burns came across like someone who’s a little affronted that he has to run for reelection…like it’s beneath his dignity…like Joe Lieberman?
oops… I mean Preznit #220.
VG,
I went to that, but by the time I downlowded the viewer and plugins and all it was nearly over. I’d have to restart my computer to get it to work. Thanks for the link, now I’ll be ready for next time.
I thought Burns was incoherent much of the time. Got tangled up in self-contradictions and inconsistencies regarding border security, immigration, northern border and patriot act. Way to go. I appreciated his instruciton on the wimpy defeatist LIBERAL mindset of effete coffee house, cosmopolitan degenerates like Tester, that pencil necked geek.
I wonder if Tester is holding back so he can destroy the guy in subsequent debates. Tester could have done better in some answers, seems to have the smarts and quickness to make more damaging attacks against Burns’ incoherent drivel. Might be holding back, and wanting to present a friendly folksy matter of fact presence. I thought Tester was very good. Yay!
Read McNerney, Kissell’s and Madrid’s sites while listening. I don’t know if congress critters challengers can get debates as easily as Senatorial candidates. But I would like to hear them.
Oilfiledguy:
No, takes two to have donnybrook. I think Tester was going easy on old Burns. Burns most effective moments were slinging out tired old epithets. Wonder how long LIBERAL will be magic hate word. It’s 25 or 30 years old now. Seems to be all Burns has.
There was some smarm and condescension (Burns), a little snark (Tester), but no rancor. Tester is leaving Abramoff out of this, and good on him! Decent guy, smart pol.
Nate- you can post it on a very old thread. And I can delete later. When it comes up however, it will be obvious as a new comment to anyone who is moderating and paying attention to comments. I will do the email thing if necessary, but I am pretty overwhelmed by email so it is not my first choice.
Tester looks energetic, focused, like someone in his prime. Burns looks like someone who’s been to a few hundred too many cocktail parties.
I’ve never seen Burn’s in action before. Not too impressive. He is the guy who beat Schweitzer? How did that happen?
BTW, in case anyone hasn’t seen him, Tester looks like a High School wrestling coach, or a farmer. Real flattop, smiles throughout – makes a great ‘brochure’ appearance
Burns looks like a sick man – liver-spotted, a little orange – 2nd only to Frist in the Crypt-keeper look!
Is it too early to have any kind of meaningful polling on the T v B race?
Nite all.
Great job once again, Matt O. Good on you.
Nite OFG
neurophius,
“Burns looks obsolete.”
ROFL! Excellent description ; )
Cozumel
Thanks. I think this debate looked a lot like what I would expect a Lieberman-Lamont debate to look like. A longtime, shopworn incumbent resting on his laurals, vs. a sharp, articulate newcomer.
Sent you a note on a much older thread Valley Girl. :-) Thanks again.
Matt O., you continue to make us proud. This is important work you do. I smell a really good reason for a tax revolt – they’re pissing it all away. We can find better things to do with our money.