
[Thanks so much to Peterr for beginning a conversation which needs to be had amongst progressives and conservatives alike. Personally, I have had an aversion to any marriage of religion and politics -- the faith under which I was brought up has always been something internal, just like the values under which I was raised. Religion has never been something that I have used (for political or personal gain, especially, for that is beyond crass) -- it has simply been something that I do. Buying an extra sandwich for the homeless guy on the corner on my way home from class in grad school. Leaving the anonymous bag of groceries or clothing or presents on some desperate doorstep at the holidays, ringing the bell, and leaving before they see me.
For me, religion and faith and values are all those things that you do when no one is watching, except your own soul and God -- that is the true test. I'm so pleased that Peterr is beginning a conversation on the things that bind us together, regardless of our faith or lack thereof, or our political affiliation. Oh, and Peterr -- I just couldn't resist this photo of Stephen Colbert. I miss his "religion" segments on The Daily Show most of all. --CHS]
The guest posters at FDL bring their particular backgrounds and skills to bear on the political life of the progressive community in a variety of different ways. Last Monday, Ian Welsh posted a thread here called Send in the Cons . . . where he laid out seven different species of the genus "Republican" – TheoCons, NeoCons, CorporateCons, RichCons, LibertarianCons, PaleoCons and MilitaryCons.
As is the case with many threads, we heard from vets about the MilitaryCons, economists about the CorporateCons, and political scientists about LibertarianCons. I couldn’t help but notice, however, that the religious conversation is . . . less. Here at FDL, we have posters, commenters and lurkers of all religious stripes, including those with no use for religion at all, and we don’t want to offend each other. The TheoCons, on the other hand, are all about religion, and by golly we’re not like them . . . so we mostly keep religion to ourselves around here.
But I don’t do that everywhere. You see, I’m a pastor and a preacher . . .
I know a thing or two about religion and politics, as well as how one communicates across the various borders that divide one group of people from another. I’ve messed around with the interplay of religion and politics for most of my life. One of the Religious Right’s biggest pitches to their crowd is that the Left isn’t religious – or at least not religious in the proper way. Insofar as progressives let that go unchallenged, it’s a big tactical win for the TheoCon leadership. If we let that go unchallenged, we also have abdicated to them the ability to define us. I’ve yet to meet someone who calls themselves progressive who is happy to meekly take the labels and beliefs others want to project onto them.
I do not believe that we should let them keep their view of us, nor should we write off them as unreachable.On the contrary, if we on the progressive side engage them properly, we can help them to remove the blinders from what the NeoCons, PaleoCons, CorporateCons and other Cons are doing – much of which is offensive to their religious beliefs. The strong religious theme of caring for the poor and oppressed runs completely against the "survival of the fittest" mentality of the CorporateCons, for instance. Even if all we want to do is respond to the TheoCon arguments or pitch our arguments to them, we have to do better at speaking a common language with them.
What I’d like to kick off here is a discussion about how to have conversations with TheoCons. I’m not talking about how to debate the Jerry Falwell-wanna be’s in your town or how to face down Fred Phelps’ minions on the sidewalk outside of church – been there, done that, and there are much more productive ways to engage the Right. Trust me.
What I am interested in – passionately – is more immediate, more personal, and more ordinary. I want to look at how we talk about politics with our hardcore TheoCon family members, with the fundy neighbors who listen to James Dobson’s Focus on the Family radio programs the way some of us check out the latest at FDL, and with the oh-so-pious person with the kid on the same little league team as your kid who brings a Bible into the stands at every game. If we’re going to talk politics with them, that means we’re going to talk religion too. But how?
Naturally, I’ve got a few ideas about this that I’ll toss out to get things rolling. I’m really anxious, though, to hear your ideas.
Let’s start by looking at a couple of loaded terms. The late Senator from Illinois, Paul Simon, was the son of Lutheran missionaries, and his brother Art founded the hunger relief organization Bread for the World. Paul’s first career was as a journalist and newspaper publisher who went after crooked politicians, and only later did he enter politics and take them on at the ballot box. (Full disclosure: I volunteered in several of his campaigns.)
In 1985, Simon wrote an article for a clergy entitled "Religion and Public Life: A Partnership of Conviction or Convenience?" [pdf warning!] In it, he notes that religious people don’t like the word "compromise." Beliefs, after all, are not something to bargain away. But that doesn’t stop religious people from trying to work out their differences. When, for example, Lutheran and Catholic theologians attempt to bridge some of the disputes that have separated them for centuries, he observed that the media reports say that they have come to a mutual "understanding." Not a compromise, but an understanding. A compromise is a horse trade where people give things up; an understanding is an entirely new way of looking at things, so that what once divided the sides no longer stands between them.
When we progressives engage the TheoCons, that’s what we’re looking for: mutual understanding, so that progress can be made together on some issue of dispute. A critical requirement for reaching this kind of understanding is sincerity. From Paul Simon:
. . . we should do more than sit in one corner of a dispute, feeling good and virtuous and put upon. Sometimes we grow comfortable in our antagonisms rather than go through the discomfort of searching for answers that can bring us closer to our goals. . . .
If the other person senses that you respect him or her, that establishes a totally different tone for the dialogue that follows. If someone approaches me on an issue and clearly indicates by small signals that he or she believes I am not sincere, it is almost impossible to have dialogue that is anything other than confrontational. But the same works the other way around. If I approach others with an attitude of antagonism, they are not likely to be moved by anything I say.
It’s hard not to get antagonistic when confronted by some of the beliefs of TheoCons. It’s hard for them not to get antagonistic when they run up against some of our beliefs. But it is possible. What makes it possible is the recognition that despite all that separates us, we do in fact share common ground with one another.
I saw an example of that here, just yesterday, on the Sorrow thread. Hundreds of messages were left for Jane as the word spread about the death of her mother. Some commenters I recognized, but there were also hundreds of self-proclaimed lurkers who were moved to post for the first or second time because of a shared sense of loss and grief. Sadly, there were some trolls as well, who were promptly sent packing and not allowed to disturb the gathering. (Thanks, trollsweepers!)
Kids grieve when their parents die, and to dump on a grieving family because you disagree with their politics . . . well, that’s just Phelpsian.
That’s one of the things that drew me here to FDL. Even when we disagree, we keep it civil and respectful of one another. [Ghostman, Larry: how do you really feel about Carville and Matalin? ;)] It’s not that we tolerate each other – toleration a dirty word in my book; just a fancy way of saying that person A gives person B the right to exist. It’s that we accept one another around here, and if we don’t, then someone is shown the door by the moderators.
The most common way most people show respect for someone’s religious beliefs, especially in progressive circles, is to not talk about them. But then look at the Sorrow thread messages from yesterday. There was a huge – absolutely huge – amount of religous language being used: biblical quotations, Christian prayers, wiccan blessings, new-age poetic expressions of sorrow, as well as more non-specific but generally religious wishes and thoughts being sent Jane’s way or offered on her behalf. Sometimes the religious language was direct, and other times subtle. Sometimes it was prefaced with words like "this brought me comfort when someone close to me died," and other times it was simply expressed. And I noticed, too, that no one apologized for their beliefs. I’ll venture a guess that when the commenter’s beliefs don’t match those of Jane or her family, she won’t get angry about the comment ("How dare they force that religious belief on me!") but she’ll acccept them in the spirit with which they were offered.
Firepups: surely we can talk and listen that way in political discussions, too, without someone having to die.
With the goal of mutual understanding, and a presumption of sincerity and acceptance, that leaves only tactics. How does one address the TheoCons? That, as an old math professor of mine was fond of saying, is left as an exercise for the class. Progressive Christians will talk to their sisters and brothers in the right-hand pews in one way, while progressives who are non-Christians will engage the TheoCons differently. If we have a strong relationship with the TheoCon we are talking with, we might be more direct; if the person is more of an aquaintance, we’ll walk more gingerly. If we know the Bible well, we’ll use that; if American history is our thing, that might be our approach instead. If it’s music that make our hearts sing (especially hymns and spirituals sung by both the progressives and the TheoCons), then maybe that’s what we’ll pull out. Each of us is different, and so are each of the TheoCons we want to reach.
Here’s a fast example, from back in 1851. In a debate over women’s suffrage, Sojourner Truth took on one of the conservative religious voices of her day in her "Ain’t I a Woman?" remarks at the Ohio Women’s Rights Convention:
Then that little man in black there [a clergyman], he says women can’t have as much rights as men, ’cause Christ wasn’t a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.
If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.
She takes two biblical stories – the birth of Jesus and life in the Garden of Eden, and holds them up against the clergyman who opposed her. She spoke to him in his language, with his images, drawn from the sacred text they both hold dear, and tried to show him where he is off the mark. She respected the sincerity of his beliefs, and showed equal respect for her own by challenging the political conclusions he reached based on his beliefs.
One of the most fully articulated statements of how one can link progressive politics and personal faith came from Mario Cuomo. As the governor of New York back in the 1980s and a faithful Roman Catholic, he was being pressed by bishops and others within the Catholic church to support a federal constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion (among other things). He made what has become a classic response for those who study religion and politics, in an address to the Department of Theology at Notre Dame University in September 1984. He’s speaking as one Catholic to other Catholics, but his words resonate for people of all faiths – or none.
As a Catholic, I have accepted certain answers as the right ones for myself and my family, and because I have, they have influenced me in special ways, as Matilda’s husband, as a father of five children, as a son who stood next to his own father’s deathbed trying to decide if the tubes and needles no longer served a purpose. As a governor, however, I am involved in defining policies that determine other people’s rights in these same areas of life and death. Abortion is one of these issues, and while it is one issue among many, it is one of the most controversial and affects me in a special way as a Catholic public official. So let me spend some time considering it.
I should start, I believe, by noting that the Catholic Church’s actions with respect to the interplay of religious values and public policy make clear that there is no inflexible moral principle that determines what our political conduct should be. For example, on divorce and birth control, without changing its moral teaching, the Church abides the civil law as it now stands, thereby accepting without making much of a point of itthat in our pluralistic society we are not required to insist that all our religious values be the law of the land.
[snip]
Our public morality, thenthe moral standards we maintain for everyone, not just the ones we insist on in our private lives depends on a consensus view of right and wrong. The values derived from religious belief will notand should notbe accepted as part of the public morality unless they are shared by the pluralistic community at large, by consensus.
That values happen to be religious values does not deny them acceptability as a part of this consensus. But it does not require their acceptability, either. The agnostics who joined the civil rights struggle were not deterred because that crusade’s values had been nurtured and sustained in black Christian churches. Those on the political left are not perturbed today by the religious basis of the clergy and lay people who join them in the protest against the arms race and hunger and exploitation.
The arguments start when religious values are used to support positions which would impose on other people restrictions they find unacceptable.
So can we find consensus with TheoCons on anything? I believe we can, but getting to that point takes work. I am fully aware – painfully and personally aware – of the violence that some people inflicted on others in the name of God, such as "reparative therapy" for gays and lesbians, or urging beaten women to return to the husbands that battered them "to preserve the family." Even so, I am unwilling to let that violence diminish the many acts of compassion and courage to care for those in need and stand up to those who oppress. My hope here is to encourage progressive voices of all kinds to take up the challenge of engaging the TheoCons, and not simply writing them off. Just as the Democrats as a party are starting to be serious about a fifty state strategy to meet the Republicans in every state of the nations, I’m hoping that Firepups will take on not only the NeoCons and CorporateCons, but the TheoCons as well.
[PS -- There was an interesting discussion on NPR this morning regarding evangelicals and their abandonment of progressive principles in favor of gaining power through the Religious Right. An intriguing listen, if anyone is interested. -- CHS]



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Love the picture, Christy!
Close but no FITZ cigar
Great topic. Thanks Peterr.
But where do you stand on NINJAS?!?
http://www.etsy.com/view_item……_id=236458
Peterr — thank you so much for doing this post. This is one of those topics that Democrats absolutely need to get a handle on — on so many levels. If we cannot have a dialogue on this issue, then what CAN we talk about?
Here’s an encouraging read on this topic:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..lican.html
FANTASTIC POST!!!
I’m not going to be able to respond much right now, but this was a very special post and I’m going to save it Peterr.
I’ll also add one other piece. Sometimes progressives who are Christians also need to be speaking with other progressives who are Christians and who can take offense very quickly at the way faith is sometimes handled in progressive circles.
Argh – wish I had time to really dig in with this – but thank you very much for this post.
Sorry, I’m an unchurched non-believing secular leftist who’s seen too much harm done in the name of religion, belief, and faith. The quicker the victory of humanism over superstition, the better. I respect the beliefs of others in the way I respect the belief children have in Santa and the Easter Bunny — and I’m certainly not interested in enagaging with those in the TheoConspiracy who want my people reparatived, dead, or in camps.
This is the thread where I get to step away from the computer and accomplish the chores I’ve put off all day. Thanks, Peterr!
Peterr,
Fabulous Post. This is an important discussion. One of the things that really bothers me about the depths to which discourse on religion has fallen in the last 10-20 years is that only “a certain kind” person can be a Christian/Jew?Muslim — and it is always very narrow. Fundamentalist.
BTW – there is going to be what looks to be a interesting new Bill Moyers series on PBS starting tonight at 9 pm (check local listings!) called Faith and Reason and starts off with Salman Rushdie.
Thanks again Peterr!
Wow.
TeddySanFran –
Part of my point is that not every TheoCon wants to repair, bury, or imprison gays. But if the only religious voices they hear are saying that, who’s to blame if that’s the message they hear.
That said, if this post helps you to get the chores done today, glad I could help! ;)
Thank you for an excellent post. I was born and raised in Illinois and held Sen. Simon in high esteem. Re: tolerance, I see it as a point on a continuum between utter abhorrence and enlightened respect. Promoting tolerance in, say, Saudi Arabia, is a worthy goal. Many of the triumphalist TheoCons are unabashedly exhibiting intolerance these days, and we need to call them on it, and expose it for what it is. They need to know that to get us both on the path to mutual respect, they need to at least renounce intolerance and head back into tolerance zone of the spectrum.
Peterr, I’m so glad you’ve started this discussion. I’ll probably be doing much more listening than speaking here, because I don’t have any TheoCons in my face on a constant basis. But should the opportunity present itself, I want to be ready.
How to coax “Kansas” over what’s been the matter with it is an essential question we (the big All-Americans WE) have to answer if we hope to heal this nation.
My understanding of the theocon position would make the answer to your basic question – NO we cannot dialogue with the theocons.
I say this because they appear to be black and white, with us or against us, all or nothing. They base their (mistaken) notions on the bible and their interpretion of it being “god’s infallable words”… you can’t compromise with the almighty. They see it as god’s way (their god and their intretation of god’s “will”) END OF STORY.
Cuomo had it right. We live in a civil society where people are free to practice their OWN religion but NOT interfere in the practice or absence thereof of other’s religion.
Thecons are seeking a religious society, NOT a secular civil one.
You cannot have a dialogue with those who do not accept you as you are. They will not do anything, but accept your conversion.
Religion has been given too much importance in our lives… in my opinion. It is not a bad thing, but just a “waste of time”… sitting in church or praying. All that time could be spent DOING something, at least in LEARNING.
Look at all the time religion has consumed in the “dialogue” in this country… in the world… and all the suffering and death directly attributable to religion.
If I could wish one thing… I would abolish religion and the whole idea of it from human consciousness.
I think that there are several varieties of religious voters who have gone BushCo. From my experience, the easiest to reach are nervous people who get religion when things go wrong or they are worried about their personal well-being. These are the kind of folks who haven’t been actively religious in years, but join a church and send their kids to Sunday School when the kids show dangerous signs of autonomy -say about kindergarten age. These are worried folks who are concerned about values and order, and can be reasoned with in a normal way. You may not sway them, but you can have a normal conversation. Then there are the hard core TheoCon Dispensationalist Fundamentalists, who, IMHO are not really Christian at all, but a hermetic cult that use the trappings of Christianity for their fantasies These are the folks who buy 100% into the Rapture and Endtimes stuff and try to match up the next world event with some verse in Revelations and Daniel (and they are always wrong, as they have been since Daniel writer who tried to predict the death of Antiochus Epiphanes and got it wrong). These are almost impossible to reach. I have met people who have loosely aligned themselves with the hard core TheoCon Dispensationalists. They want a strong religion that stands for something, but they don’t understand how far Dispensationalism is from true Chrisianity or any true religion (versus a cult). For these, a good discussion of how far from Christianity the Dispensationalist really are is a good starting place. You have to pry them away from the cultists first. I don’t have nearly as much experience with this as Peterr, but that is my take.
It’s funny: even though I’m no longer Catholic or religious in any way I understand the word to be used, my Catholic upbringing is right through all my political values and writing. I see it popping up in my writing all over, in whatever moral sense I bring to my posts, my arguments, my observations.
Looking forward to finishing reading this, Peterr: thanks so much for it.
A progressive vision for the common good comes, for me at least, from the values incubated in me through my (very active and engaged) Catholic upbringing and young adulthood.
Pach wants to sue the Catholics.
A very good post, Peterr, and I agree with most of what you’re saying.
However, for a conversation to lead to understanding, both parties must be sincerely involved. In my experience, that just doesn’t happen when talking with religious conservatives. There is nothing one can say that they can’t twist scripture around to back up their argument.
I am not a Christian. I don’t mind if you are, or if my neighbor is. That’s your right. But I dislike intensely being judged and told how to live my own life, and even more, I dislike intensely the hypocricy practiced by the same people who spout scripture at me.
Jesus told his followers to love one another, even their enemies. How does that square with the behavior we’re seeing today from the religious right, who support bringing a war based upon lies to innocent people who wanted nothing more than to be allowed to live their lives out, loving their families and friends? How does that square with prominent Christian preacher types advocating the assassination of another country’s leader?
Until they can stop being hypocritical and learn to walk the walk while they talk the talk, then I don’t think we have very much to talk about at all.
punaise: grrr. . . you caught my typo before I corrected it. . . but now that you mention it. . .
Peterr –
I don’t know if I’m convinced… I’ve watched this unfold with regard to abortion, where leaders of the pro-choice community reached out to the anti-abortion movement in the name of seeking ‘common ground’ – which was only embraced for pure political advantage. Sure, there are commonly sought ends: say, for instance, the reduction of teen pregnancy – and there’s no compromising on the means to that end. The pro-choice side says ‘teach comprehensive sex ed, including abstinence’ – the antis say ‘abstinence only, period, end of discussion.’ The pro-choice side doesn’t want to be seen as obstructionist, so they conceed a little here, conceed a little there, then bam! they’re trying to recover lost ground without ever seeing what hit them. A similar dynamic tends to play out when it comes to improving adoption services or access to adoption: bam! it becomes ‘no gays can adopt’ or ‘every woman seeking an abortion must be told that adoption is the best choice’.
Can certain practical compromises be reached? Maybe. The problem is that they’ll never be enough – they’ll be seen as a concession, a weakening. By definition, the TheoCons want religious law to be the law of the land, and as long as that’s denied them (which it always will, if I have anything to say about it), they’re always going to keep pushing that line.
I’m done with compromise. In their eyes, it’s weakness, not Christian, not Judeo-Christian, not understanding, not common ground, not shared values: weakness.
Pach brings up an important point: the cultural matrix of early religious training, whether one remains churchly or not.
That’s an implement with a double edge, so one whose use we must think about more, and carefully.
We are well past the age of enlightenment. Religion is nothing more that superstition.
Time for humans to take the responibility of their actions and use their best reasoning and science to advance civilization.
Finding a way to “incorporate” faith into the progressive movement is a step in the wrong direction.
How about incorporating “truth” reason and rationality?
I’m also a non-believer. I suppose it is because of a couple of things. One is that I wasn’t raised as a believer. I was free to make up my own mind about things. And I have never had a need to have the universe explained in any other terms than scientific.
But I will agree that at the heart of most religions are some very, very worthwhile teachings and guidance for living.
I wish there were someone on the other side of the discussion that I could really have some serious back-and-forth with, who wouldn’t get upset when I start asking questions that might be taken as questioning their faith. I really would like to know a few things, but have always felt very uneasy asking. I have a vey good friend who is a Catholic, and we see eye to eye on a lot of things. Yet, she gets very upset with me when I start making statements about what I believe and why. I don’t understand that.
So, yes, the conversation should be had. But, in my experience, I have yet to find people (on both side, mind you) that can keep it impersonal, informative, without becoming offended or angry.
Any takers….?
For those who want a little more detail on how the Bible has been used in political debates, there’s a great book called “The Bible Tells Me So: Uses and Abuses of Holy Scripture,” written by Jim Hill and Rand Cheadle. The book is a very accessible treatment of how the Bible has been used to justify both sides of various controversies in the church and American Society: both pro-slavery and abolition points of view, to attack gays and to welcome them, etc.
(O, and Hill was raised a conservative Lutheran and Cheadle a Southern Baptist. Go figure.)
Here is a link that was a part of some info I received very recently.
http://tinyurl.com/r55ft
It is a description of a video – Theologians and Nazis – that is a part of the United Methodist Church’s study efforts to highlight and discuss issues such as the overlap of church and state. I know a pastor who has had a very difficult, divisive time in her fairly conservative Ind. Church over the issue of the American flag and the church and whether it should be displayed inside the church.
In any event, not knowing the types of dialogues taking place in mainstream churches and with non-fundamentalist evangelists (yes, there are quite a few) is like not bother to identify the specialized corp interest Repubs from the civil libertarian small govt Repbubs (I think there are still some of those).
Understanding the discussions is not the same as agreement; but it makes for a dialogue rather than a disconnect.
IMO, FWIW.
zeppo
I’m all ears (virtually)
[Actually, Paul Simon appeared to be literally all ears, but that’s another topic]
Peterr – Great post on an extremely important discussion. I can’t wait to see where it goes.
Christy notes that “religion and faith and values are all those things that you do when no one is watching,” which is exactly right and goes to the heart of this. It is only the vulgar and insincere who would use their faith or spirituality for personal gain, and this should be an automatic BS detector for the public. But it isn’t, because such discussions are not about religion at all. They’re about power-symbols and G-d as a handpuppet (thanks Thom Hartmann.) With this in mind, it is not hard to understand why progressives or the truly spiritual are loathe to engage in that, again vulgar, conversation.
I’d like to float an old theological point here which transcends particular religious affiliations, and it expands upon the excerpts of Cuomo’s speech. In order for spirituality to grow, space for error must be made. I am infinitely more sensitive to the fragility of my spirituality because of my errors, and therefore ever more vigilant, which is the essence of religion – its integration to your actual daily life. This is why we have a secular space in which we live. If I were held to a error-free state by a “successful” theocracy, then spirituality would remain an abstraction, I never to drink from its cup.
And that would be profoundly bankrupt.
[oh jeez. NEVER did I expect my name to come up in somebody’s article! Well, PeterR, I am chuckling]
How to talk to “theocons”?
1. gay stuff: I still think that an emphasis on genes/chromosomes is a key. I “think” science now identifies a different “sex preference” gene in gay folks? Am I right here?
If so…then it’s God choosing to bring someone into the world like that. Why did God make such a choice? I don’t know…that’s why I’m a mere mortal, and NOT God. But God chose that, and God teaches us to love everyone. (even Ghostman! chuckle)
2. religion in school: maybe talk in the “opposite”…how it would be unfair, if in the theocons neighborhood, a bunch of moslems moved in and demanded that the school hold daily moslem prayers. That wouldn’t be fair to the Christian kids. So, maybe “fair” is just to keep all religion out of the schools…and compliment the theocon on how well you know they’ll do in teaching their kids about God…at home, and at church.
Just my rambling ideas. But I like the article very much.
Ghostman
Peterr – Fine post. And I mean that – what follows is meant neither to bury you nor praise you.
I am not a preacher, a pastor or even a man of god (and for what it is worth I am also pissed at Sartre for taking 800 onion leaf pages filled with small type to “prove” that god doesn’t exist when three words work for me). But I do believe in the maxim that most likely predates all modern religions, the Golden Rule – do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.
What you suggest is a two way street, and I think your hope for the Theocons is misplaced at best.
You speak of a dialogue with people who only know soliloquy; of people whose minds are closed to anything but THEIR understanding of the alleged words of THEIR god.
They are solipsism writ large concerning every aspect of existence; and it is never profitable to have a debate with a solipsist.
Now, it may be true that on the 4 trillionth try, quantum mechanics will come through for my and my head, rather than hitting the wall, will actually pass trough the wall. But chances are I will be bloodied and unconscious before I will ever get to seeing the theory proved.
OT: Just got off the phone with Jane. She sounded well. Will be meeting her in the am for coffee. I’ll be sure and pass on FDL hugs. Not an entirely unpleasant task.
Peterr,
You are a brilliant guy.. but we need to work harder to erect strong and taller walls between religion and civil society.
There is nothing to debate on this. Complete and utter and unbreachable separation of church and state.
No “In god we trust” not Under god in the a “pledge of allegiance.. no swearing on the bible in a court… No mention of religion or god in the public square.
Religion is DRIVEN by fundamentalism and fundamentalists. These are uncompromising and irrational. The sooner we grow up and forget the tooth fairy… the better.
Right on, DefJef.
OFG – do what you gotta do. take one for the team.
Good point Pach,
I had not thought of it like that until you verbalised it.Myself being raised Catholic shaped my thinking and actions and still do.(SHHH, don’t tell anyone,Bustednuckles was an altar boy once.)
I have my own beliefs and I don’t talk about religion because I respect other peoples beliefs.When it comes to Theocons,The rigidity and (what I feel)bastardization of the bible and it’s teachings make any type of discouse doomed for failure.There can be no mutual understanding. The us or them mentality leaves no room for much discussion.
I’m with zeppo @23. I just don’t “do” religion. Still, this is a fascinating post/topic/thread.
EPU:
I doubt that my hope is misplaced, because I’ve seen it happen . . .
In a parish I once served, there was an adult education class that was talking about sex ed in the high school across the street. One older and very conservative member said “I don’t want the school nurse handing out condoms. That’s too much like giving permission.” A younger more progressive member replied “When I was a teenager, the worst thing that my girlfriends and I thought could happen with sex was that we’d end up pregnant. Today, I worry that my daughters could die of AIDS. If giving them condoms can keep them alive until they’re more mature, then I say ‘pass them out.’”
A conversation started, and that TheoCon was moved. It happened because there was a personal connection between the two, and a certain level of trust that neither was out to “do in” the faith of the other.
Is it gonna happen everywhere, with every TheoCon you meet? Doubtful, highly doubtful. But it will never happen – not even once – if no one tries.
OFGuy — we’re all there with you.
It was this piece written by the late Rev. Ray Baughan that brought me to the church:
That’s the kind of church I belong to. But I fully understand the fears that bring others to the fundamentalist faiths. If we really want to engage people at a level that is at all meaningful, we need to be able to talk about those fears.
When people have “sinned” or feel that they have, they can look for absolution or a place that tells them they are OK, or they can look for a place that holds on to that sin like a ransom. Either of those kind of places can make them feel better, but which can let them feel free?
A “free” church, one that affirms us as being human will not try to control or manipulate. At the same time, it forces us to look at life and its ambiguity. An authoritarian church will give easy answers and comfort in exchange for some kind of subservience.
Not many people are able to live in comfort with ambiguity. Thus the difference between the liberal faiths (or strains thereof) and the fundamentalist faiths.
Thanks peterr for bringing this up. Great references both to Simon and Cuomo. I still have a Simon for Pres. bumper sticker somewhere in a file. He was great!
Alas it is taking me away from sermon writing because this is where I want to engage.
I was raised a Methodist, and have long since developed my own. A little of this, a dash of that, and I am what I am.
I left the Church because killing for Christ is so antithetical to the teachings of Jesus. Humanism, Taoism, Tantric Shivan Hinduism, Animism — and at the heart of it all, the teachings of Jesus.
Finding common ground with wing nut TheoCons is tough. A friend use to say that the Christian Right are neither; they are not Christian, they are not right. While I agree with the sentiment, it’s not a place to start a conversation.
I’ve often said that right wing TheoCons can quote book-chapter-verse of Bible — everything except the Gospels of Jesus. For the fire breathing Bible thumpers, Jesus is unwelcome in their religion.
Finding common ground is tough, especially when the disagreements are so fundamental and profound. But finding common ground where we can is the only way improve the present situation.
Science and religion has had a similarly uneasy history. Right now, there is a very interesting conversation starting to percolate in some TheoCon circles around global warming and the environment. Someone – my guess is a scientist who is also religious – got some TheoCons to take their views on creation (God made it all, it’s all good, etc.) and set it next to what humanity is doing to the planet. It’s not a pretty picture.
It’s gotten some TheoCons to re-think how quickly they should write off the “tree huggers.”
I’m with you Defjef and TeddySanFran,
Religion is ok with me for the individual. I don’t care what religion anyone wants to follow. That’s part of what the USA is founded on. Freedom of Religion should imply Freedom to follow no Religion.
It is no coincidencre that the right has always been aligned with religion. Religion (superstition) controls the masses. Fear of punishment from God or government (the police) work hand in hand to keep society in check.
Back in 424 AD, when Constantine, leader of the Roman empire promulgated the “Edict of Milan” in order to embrace (and empower) the Church (Catholic) because he needed Christian warriors to conquer other territories and to defend his own. At that time, Paganism was the dominant religion. It wasn’t that Constantine cared about the persecution of the Christians.
This was an important crossroad in recorded history wherein the Government co-opted religion in order to reenforce its own power.
Hitler did it as did countless others and
its happening again with the Bushistas.
#18 Wren:
The violent rightwing Christianist nuts are not Christians in the traditional sense. Certainly not in the traditional Roman Catholic or Protestant sense. They do not think that what Jesus taught has any relevance for today, or for being a good Christian. That is why if you go to their Bible Studies they rarely read anything from the Gospels. They are in their own hermetically sealed cult worldview, all justified by an extremely convoluted and bizarre reading of the Bible. Their true beliefs would surprise you. So don’t be surprised when they say things that do match up with Jesus teachings.
I heard a hard core Fundie on CNN say that the next time Jesus came he would come with a sword to kill all those who had not been saved through him and him alone. And if he, as a good Christian, would help Jesus by killing anyone who was not on his side. Weird, but this preacher man had his reasons. They were crazy reasons, IMHO, but for him they were good reasons. Strange but true.
Read Fundametalism by James Barr and all the weird thinking is explained in detail.
Recently there was a bit of press about a new synagogue in the town of Wal-Mart (sorry can’t rember the actual name) Arkansas built by northern transplants who moved down there to work in the corpporate offices. Many of them were completely secular, but felt they had to do something to keep their Jewish heritage alive in their families. But one fascinating thing they have been able to do – in a county with umpteen big and little protestant churches – is to bring some balance to the school system. So now Christmas break is Winter break, the kids are given a class about hanakah to balance out all the Christmas stuff, etc etc.
So far, it seems that there has been very little backlash, even though this is the kind of stuff that O’Reilly’s War in xmas is built. So, what I am thinking is that perhaps there is something to be learned here – like what Peterr said, find the common ground (ie, the OT in the case of the ARkansas Jews) and go from there. I know that because I was raised in a very very old Southern Baptist family, I can always find something to talk to Baptists about. One thing I do enjoy doing is telling them that I have been “saved” since I was 13 (when I was baptised) – according to Baptist doctrine anyone, once saved, always saved – at least that is what I was taught at the time! (Even though I haven’t set foot inside a Baptist church except for a couple of funerals in 30 years!)
I guess I am saying that the Theocons have been telling these people that us libruls basically aren’t human . . . and yet, experience shows that it takes very little to show many of them otherwise. For example, I bet the fundies in Christy’s neck of the woods would defend her to the death if anyone thought of calling her “Godless” just because she is a dem.
It won’t change overnight . . . but a lot of these people are as much victims of the facists as we are. The only difference is that they don’t know it.
I quit seeing a very good friend of mine because of her “religious values.” She watched Fox News all the time, and I laughed at that. She listened to Dobson on the radio, and I pointed out the guy was an asshole who promoted beating children; she laughed at me and ignored me. We had been friends since high school, so we agreed to set our religious differences aside.
But one day I pulled up to her house and saw a Vote Yes On Prop 22 sign in her yard. My heart was pounding and I was actually shaking with rage. I think my last words to her were “I can’t be friends with someone who actively works to make the State discriminate against a group of citizens.” I’m not gay, but so what? I’m a human being, so I consider myself affiliated with gay people on that level.
How do you “argue” with someone whose salvation depends on not seeing any other way?
I’m an atheist, but my degree was in religious studies. There is beauty and perversion in every religion. The theocons pervert religion because they aren’t using it to find their own private paradise; they are using it to gain power over other people. That’s the line I draw, I guess, when it comes to “respecting” another person’s religious beliefs. When someone else’s god wants to force me into a pregnancy I don’t want or send my son off to be cannon fodder for the Holy Corporation, there is nothing to argue with. There is only a battle ahead, and I damn well hope the forces of the Enlightenment are victorious over the forces of the new Cromwells.
Peterr – Theocons are conmen and conwomen – at least if we are discussing the loudest of those who lead in the “name” of religion like the Dobsens and the Reeds. Their followers may be true believers, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t just as solipistic. One convert does not a movement make, and my bet is that is more the exception that proves that rule than anything else.
Although calvin was named after the famed theologian, John Calvin, he is not a follower of Calvinism in it’s entirety. calvin does, however, believe that he is one of God’s chosen ones. As proof, calvin offers the observation that he, indeed, is a cat.
In calvin’s experience, those who loudly sound their religious horns usually use religion as a smokescreen to hide their moral and ethical lapses or, perhaps, habitual practices. And, some use religion as a cloak to mask their sociopathic need for control of others for their own gratification.
Those who seek to use religion to impose their “beliefs” on others are not, in calvin’s opinion, very christian. Certain wrong-wing pundits refer to Islamofascists. calvin sees the same virtues being demonstrated by the fundies of the right wing.
calvin was brought up not to use religion to bring attention to one’s self. (As a side note, that philosophy also worked well in the field.) Today, it seems as if we have so-called ministers vying with each other to be entertainment superstars. They use religion as their vehicle the same way as sports and entertainment figures use their respective professions to command attention and donations. In calvin’s opinion, people would be better off praying for deliverance from these charlatans masquerading as persons of faith. Far too many have been convicted, but not until after swindling people or sexually assaulting them.
calvin believes that it is time for persons of faith to stand up for their beliefs before those who profess to act in Christ’s name use those swords that have been beaten into plowshares to plow them under. These parasitic so-called christians are not playing by the rules of Christ as you understand them. Too bad not enough of you know about the Inquisition. It wasn’t the fun and games that was portrayed in History of the World, Pt. II. It was very deadly. Don’t think that it couldn’t happen here under the right conditions. If you don’t believe me, look closely at the rise of Hitler. Good people did nothing.
Great thread.
I don’t interact a lot with the uber-religious but I do understand that not all Christians hate gays, just in the same way not all gays feel “proud” of gay pride parades. But, we tolerate the expression because visibility is so important and I think oddly enough many religious people feel the same way about the rhetoric coming from the Theocons–at least someone is discussing their “lifestyle”.
But I always have a problem with the biological angle to homosexuality. I personally feel it is a choice–a choice to pursue happiness, just like the Declaration of Independence states.
Peterr – I also go with what Wesgpc said – I think you need to make a distinction between Theocons and those who otherwise have strong religious beliefs.
My beliefs are deeply personal and rarely, if ever do I speak of them. It’s easy for me to be who I am without talking about it; rather, I choose to live my beliefs in my actions toward others. I believe devoutly in the Golden Rule. I try always to look for similarities between people rather than their differences. I am deeply, viscerally worried and upset by the growing hatred and vilification of Islam and Muslims. It is one common thread I have found in the last few years among both progressives and die-hard conservatives. Ignorance and xenophobia are festering among those in the West who have chosen the path of fear. I worry it will serve to unite many in the West against billions of people and a religion that does advocate and teach peace. Bush infamously used the word Crusade in a speech early on; once spoken, it has never been erased from the American psyche despite his later proclamations to the contrary. For me, this is the single largest religious/cultural/political hurdle we in the West face. It is fast becoming a war on a religion. That is wrong, no matter what belief system we are talking about. I believe we have to tread carefully and not contribute to the ugliness. Separation of religion and state MUST be upheld in our daily lives and that is eroding too, imho. When a nation is shaking in fear and in the righteousness of their purpose, it can easily give up those ideals that made it great. It’s happened to us already and we have to stop this madness.
I think wesgpc has it right about the numerous types that form the Theocon movement. I have friends that are classic Eric Hoffer True Believer who will never be dissuaded from their belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. Unfortunately they are being manipulated by the Dobson, Robertson, Reid types that see politicizing the Fundamentalist movement as a path to power. Throw in the LaHaye- Left Behind- End times fantasy and you have a very dangerous situation. My true believer friends are becoming political because they truly believe we need a Christian theocratic government in the US to bring back Christ.
Before I met these people, I tended to dismiss the fundamentalist movement as merely a convenient religious justification for the personal prejudices of its adherents. However these true believers are very far removed from the hypocrites they help elect.
I can’t say that I’ve have been really successful at shaking the convictions of any these friends but I’m not sure that I’m ready to give up as DefJef suggests. The racists, sexist homophobes that are using fundamental Christianity are certainly not open to discussion but I think the true believers can be persuaded if we can show them that they are being manipulated and that what they are being told about the Bible especially Revelations is not true. This is not easy. After all the believers are constantly being told that anyone that doesn’t share there beliefs is an instrument of the devil. I think it is possible if approached from a position of shared faith.
LindaR -
I’m all with you on drawing lines. I’ve gotten death threats from TheoCons and had my church targetted as well. When it becomes a powerplay, or dangerous, or anything but a safe conversation, it’s time to back off.
Kind of like dealing with trolls, now that I think about it.
Anyone’s welcome here, until you start disrespecting the place and the people in it. Once that happens, you’re out of here.
I’d kind of like to see that attitude move beyond our little corner of the world.
I think we’re not giving ourselves enough credit, people. Lurkers don’t come out of the woodwork by accident. Comments are still coming in on Sorrows – we’re up to #741. Is what we’ve got here at FDL so miraculous that it can’t function anywhere but here?
oh boy, forgot my manners and spacing in my previous post. Peterr, thank you for your thoughts and a well-written post!!!
Peterr 26: Thanks much for the offer….
This might have to be somewhat shortened from what I would like. I have to go mow the front yard here pretty soon.
Several things. One is that specific religious beliefs seem, to me, to be very egotistical. They put mankind at the center of literally EVERYTHING. Yet, if you take a look at what we know of the universe now, even the galaxy we live is in just a speck in the vastness, and it takes light, traveling at 186,000 miles per second, over 100,000 years to get from one side of that one speck, of which there are billions, to the other. So, why is mankind so central to God and all his creations? Couldn’t He have come up with something little simpler?
Second question. One of the purposes of religion seems to me to answer a lot of questions that either are or have been up to very recently, unanswerable. What is the essence of the universe? Why am I here? However, there are some other, more “down to earth” kinds of questions that religions have taken on and have failed miserably. We now know that the earth isn’t at the center of the universe, or even at the center of our solar system. The sun doesn’t revolve around the earth. A rainbow is the scattering of light by water particles in the air, breaking the light down into its colored components. It isn’t a promise by God that He won’t destroy the earth by flooding again.
All of those attempts at explanations that the Bible seems to hold so dear seems to me to be an attempt my man who had very little knowledge of the actual world he inhabited. I can’t see any reason why I should take the story of Noah any more literally than I would a story from the Indians of the Pacific Northwest. They have a legend about the time when Whale fought with Bear, and much was destroyed. After putting many varying pieces of information together, it appears that this story was an attempt at explaining a very large earthquake and subsequent tsunami, which also inundated the coastline of Japan in the 1600’s or 1700’s, I am not sure which. The Indians were attempting to explain something that they had no explanation for. Why is it not likely that the miracles and odd happenings in the Old Testament are along the same line? I cannot see that the inherent nature of our earth or our universe, or the fundamental laws of physics, changed since biblical times. So, why is what is in the Bible any more compelling than the legends of all the other religions?
Which brings me to another question. Why is it that Christianity is “The Truth”, and none of the other multitudes of religions, big and small, are not? To me, all this means is Christianity is one of the most successful, but not necessarily “The Truth”. Why is it that it is very likely that someone will grow up believing what they were taught as a child? This is a form of indoctrination. (This is where my friend gets upset with me.) If you are brought up in a Catholic family, go to church regularly, really get the entire exposure, I don’t find it a great mystery that most people would end up a Catholic. You aren’t likely to end up a Buddhist monk or Lakota shaman. You are what you are taught. Now, please don’t take this the wrong way, because I am NOT making a comparison here. I am just trying to show the power of indoctrination. Kids who got placed into the Hitler Youth really believed that they should give themselves wholly to the Reich, and Hitler was a god or more. Palestinian kids grow up believing that strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up “their enemies” is a good thing. So, why is it so hard to believe, then, that kids being brought up from a very early age will accept that Christ was divine and was resurrected from the dead? If you said that about your neighbor down the street, you wouldn’t give the guy the time of day. But millions of people readily accept that thesis. And I just don’t understand why. Why would we believe something like that which came from a book that is two millennia old?
My answer is indoctrination. You can get people to believe all sorts of things if you really try hard. Egypt, after all, was once a Christian, Greek speaking nation until conquered by Islamic invaders. After a few generations, they are not Christian anymore.
I suppose religion is an individual’s way to try to get a handle on the universe, the uncertainty of our society, and, the ultimate question, what happens when we die. Obviously, our species has an inherent need for those kinds of explanations. We do not like uncertainty. But if you consult Occam’s Razor, the explanations that are coming from science, even though they are very, very strange (such as, how can an electron be a particle AND a wave at the same time), seem to make more sense to me that postulating a benevolent being that created the entire universe but seems to care about whether or not we believe in Him.
This was EPU’d on the last thread, but is actually right on topic for this one. Bill Moyers is debuting a new series, Faith and Reason, on PBS tonight. He’s generally excellent, so it might be a helpful aid to getting this dialogue going.
Sometimes the bad guys win.
The Spanish Civil War pitted the fascists against the peasants. The fascists won. The dictator Francisco Franco ruled for forty years. It took a long time for Spain to recover. Now, Spain has a democracy and a progressive leader. They have good public mass transit, national health care and other societal benefits.
The right wing – allied with religion – always fights against these public benefits in favor of big monied individuals and corporations.
Here is the link to the Bill Moyers PBS On Faith and Reason.
Peterr, great post! My older son wants to use the computer now, but I do hope you post again. Love it.
Zeppo,
You are a smart person. I agree with you.
Zeppo @ 53
What’s that they say: “Be careful what you ask/pray for.”? Well, I asked . . .
You raise a bunch of great issues, and I suppose the biggest one that leaps out at me is “How do I/you/anyone read our scriptures?” Literally or figuratively or both? Products of a historical era with little to say today, or do they continue to resonate in some fashion?
Those are the questions that lie behind what you’re asking. Some TheoCons, for instance, are amazed to discover that there is not a single creation account in the Hebrew scriptures, but several. (It surprises progressives, too, if the only ones telling them about scripture are those TheoCons.) The “point” then, of these accounts is not to describe in a scientific fashion how the world came to be, but to put God at the center of the creative actions.
I don’t want to go into all you raised here . . . I can’t at the moment, and the discussion will no doubt race along while we’re typing. But keep wrestling, and I’ll be doing the same.
Since it has been brought up, I was raised in a Lutheran church and was frankly, disappointed with the whole deal…except the cinnamon rolls after the early service. I have since found a more real and rational approach to religion in what is known as the Ancient Wisdom teachings, a remarkable body of work which substands all the world’s religions. Much of it available in the written works of Alice A. Bailey and Benjamin Creme.
It allows the open minded to understand the mysteries of life and teaches, for one thing among many, that that evolution doesn’t stop with this current life or even with humanity itself. Witness Jesus, man man made God. Witness the Buddha, Krisna and Mohammed. All advanced well beyond what we would think of as
average humanity.
It may not look like it, but we are, behind the scenes, in good hands. Maitreya, the teacher’s Teacher says, “We will skirt the abyss, but have no fear. Maitreya is here.”
I WELL appreciate how strange a tale this is, but I’ve followed this story since 1982 and have watched in amazement as it has grown and blossomed. I cannot imagine how I would feel about the state of the world if I were not, by now,completely convinced of the truth of this most amazing
event.
For a politically correct and, strangely enough, normal, answer to the spirtual crisis of today go to: http://www.share-international.org
I’m off to dinner, so flame away. I understand
completely and will be back in a few hours.
The FDL prayer:
Preview is my friend
Preview is my friend
Preview is my friend
So, Jesus walks into a bar. At one table sits a crippled guy, his crutches leaning nearby. Jesus approaches, lays His hands on the man, and says “be healed, my son.”
The man stands up, estatic and astonished at the regained use of his legs. “Oh, thank you, Lord!!! Thank you!!! Praise God…”
Jesus then moves on to a blind fellow sitting at the bar nursing a beer, his cane resting by his barstool. Jesus lays His hands upon the man’s face and says “be blind no more my son, see again by My glory.”
The man jumps up off the stool, amazed…
“Oh, thank you, Lord!!! Thank you!!! Praise God, it’s a miracle…”
Jesus then looks around the tavern, and spots a drunk redneck Texan at a booth who’s been watching the happenings. He turns and approaches the Texan, who raises his hand in a “stop” motion, and shouts…
“Don’t fuckin’ touch me, dude, I’m drawin’ disability!”
Peterr — I agree with you, what we have here at FDL is not miraculous. It is a product of a lot of hard work. The trollskimming alone keeps the FDL conversation civil in a way not enjoyed in other blog communities. (Note to self: go buy something at the FireDogLake store.)
Atheist that I am, I go to church once in a while at a Lutheran church in Granite Bay. The paster there is fabulous. He’s brilliant, has studied world religions, and is a real example of someone, in my opinion (ha) Jesus would not have railed against. It’s actually been awhile; I’m not sure if he is still there. He used to have a bible discussion group during the week that was a blast. People of all faiths, and even atheists like me, were welcome.
zeppo — I think you are so right. Religion really becomes a kind of tool, a language or system for discussing the terrifying question, “What does it all mean?” We speak English, Spanish, whatever, depending on where we are born, just as we speak Catholic, Muslim, Methodist, Hindu, Wicca. I like a lot of stories found in religious traditions, who doesn’t? Reading Chuang-tse is a delight.
But now, I strike myself as pedantic and boring. See, I’m no prophet! And anybody who is scares me.
Lol Peterr,
I pray constantly!
The big problem I see with your post is what you failed to address. Often times it is the leaders of the church who are poluting the dialogue. There are few more trusting relationships than that between a devout follower and his religious guide. This is a powerful thing since the Dobson talking points get filtered down to local churches. How do you tell someone that their preacher is full of shit?
I firmly believe that it is very sad fact that some followers of every religion (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and Hiduism and others) use that religion to justify their personal sense of pride and emotional security, and to maintain their power, or personal fantasy of power, in the world, rather than to break out of futile and limited perceptions of the world. This ends up in justifying existing social power structures that support their power or self esteem or sense of personal security, no matter how brutal, but it is not what religion is for. But it is what many people use it for. So, the bottom line is that much of the problem involved in discussion and communication is rooted in a person’s feelings about their control over sex money and power in the world. And, talking about that stuff is a way more sensitive than mere Beliefs in some Dogma -those kinds of belief are not even vapors or wind.
James 2:19 You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that. And they tremble!
Mere belief in this or that doesn’t get you very far. But for the hardcore TheoCons, these beliefs (that are completely unconnected with any understanding of themselves, or their actions or emotions) are all that they have. And I think it makes them a little crazy in the head and the heart.
James 3:18 Those who make peace should plant peace like a seed. If they do, it will produce a crop of right living.
Many Theocons can’t bear to hear this from the Letter of James:
1You rich people, listen to me. Cry and sob, because you will soon be suffering.
2Your riches have rotted. Moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver have lost their brightness. Their dullness will give witness against you. Your wanting more and more will eat your body like fire. You have stored up riches in these last days.
4You have even failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields. Their pay is crying out against you. The cries of those who gathered the harvest have reached the ears of the Lord who rules over all.
5You have lived an easy life on earth. You have given yourselves everything you wanted. You have made yourselves fat like cattle that will soon be butchered. 6You have judged and murdered people who aren’t guilty. And they weren’t even opposing you.
—sorry about the Bible verses. I’m not really like that, just being mischevious today.
D. Mason 66
“How do you tell someone that their preacher is full of shit?”
in liberal churches folks do it all the time! We don’t have sheep, we have cats.
I like a lot of stories found in religious traditions, who doesn’t?
“Who doesn’t”? Seriously?
I agree with #53 zeppo, if you are talking about a bogus use of religion.
I am a Christian and a liberal. More strange is that I am both pro-choice and pro-life. (Sure, ask!)
Over the years I have had many a conversation with folks of all religious stripes, including the hard core of my southwestern Ohio upbringing. We are all people, there are always things we can agree on.
The basis of productive conversation: respect.
They must feel that you respect them, not despise them and their beliefs.
We do need to re-engage the national debate about where religious belief stops and political responsibilities start. Governor Tim Kaine of Virginia spoke openly of this conflict in his successful campaign.
Let the dialogue begin.
Zeppo – I think Karl Marx had a theory similar to yours.
This is a great conversation, and had Leslie @ 54 not mentioned it, I was going to recommend Moyer’s “Faith and Reason.” I think there’s a reason a show like his would appear now, and why we’re having this conversation.
I’m a scientist by training, a Catholic by birth, and am profoundly wary of any attempt to control both belief and behavior by experience. And yet I continue to have faith in the spirit moving in the world, however it is expressed.
The Founders were right to erect a barrier between religion and the state; and while our our government must be secular, we need maintain the cultural and social space for people to express their faith in constructive ways.
The “how” of the expression of faith and belief is where people get wrapped around the axle. If I correctly understand Peterr’s argument , learning how to accept and understand how other people express their faith and belief is where we should place our effort. Atheists will not become Baptists, and Hindus and Jews will not exchange forms of worship. I don’t believe this will be easy for many — but hopefully this project will lead us to a richer understanding of our human experience, and will reduce the tensions and animosity that religions have often created between people of great faith.
EPU @ 69.
I am rolling on the floor laughing my ass off. I knew I’d get busted on that comment. But I’m going to go make a list of links of Great Stories From Religious Traditions — just for you, babe!
To all those posters who say, “We can’t argue with these people!,” I tend substantially to agree.
But “those people” tend to be the extreme end of a range, and we need to create as much leftward drag as possible on the middle.
The #1 most important group to mobilize is “rational Christians,” who take the teachings of Jesus seriously, can find some common ground with the whackos, and follow Peterr’s advice above.
It’s kind of like, we all need to find our common grounds that we have with them, and use them with those who’ll find some own common ground of their own to offer. But Peterr’s right about common grounds and mutual respect as an important tactic, it IS much more successful.
And I’ve experienced a fair amount of success myself (primarily toward “second-guessing” homophobia). Peterr’s not wrong. But it’s also true that the greatest onus is on “the rational believers” themselves to step up to the plate and help us out with this, because they’re frankly “closer over” to the whackos than many of the rest of us.
The problem with the right-wing “religious” type is: they want to make THEIR “religion” into LAWS. That is what is dangerous.
Everyone should be able to have their own religion, or none. And most Americans actually agree with this. But for too long, we have heard “Two things are NEVER discussed in polite company: taxes and religion. Oh, if ONLY!
Bottom line — all Americans can have whatever religion they like, but keep it to yourself, as far as empty words go. Christy’s examples of BEING Christian, but letting no one know is VERY rare. That’s what Christianity is supposed to be.
If anyone is interested in this, I would suggest you listen to Bernie Ward’s “God Talk” on KGO radio. (6:00am Sundays, CA time) He lives in San Francisco, but you can go to the webpage and hear it online. Bernie was a priest and is still in the Catholic Church, but is now married and has 4 kids. And trust me, he is no mealy mouthed freak. He describes fundies as “They check their brains at the church door and pick up their crayons.” You might not think this is what we need now, but I do.
Humans are never more vicious than when they attack each other in the name of God.
Betty Bowers — God told me to hate you!!!
D. Mason
What, my post wasn’t long enough for you?
Seriously, you’ve hit a rail right on the head on the link between followers and guides. I’ve been told that I’m full of shit on more than a few occasions, and it’s even been true at least a couple of times.
Here’s my short answer: In theory, there is a distinction made between God and the human religious guide for a community. If you can help a follower to understand that the guide in question seems to have forgotten that difference, they’ll be more likely to hear you out.
I an hardly wait for EPU’s Bible Stories for Cosmopolitan Adults. I like them too.
wow!!! thanks peterr. i think it is important to seperate theocons from strong conservative religious types. i recently was at a friends house for a high school graduation party. i had just seen “an inconvenient truth”. i personally don’t know how someone can see that movie and not be moved. when i mentioned that it was al gore’s movie on global warning, the hostess gave me such a disgusted look. it was not the time pr place to get into it but the time will come. she is very conservative politically and theologically. i have a hard time that she can justify destroying Gods kingdom. this post has given me several thoughts to probe.
While I share the general suspicion of the use of religion in politics, I also observe that any successful, sustainable political movement is founded on a cultural movement, and that any cultural movement in America involves religious elements.
We have, for example, a helluva fight to wage on global climate change. The consequences for failure to act are literally cataclysmic for all uman life. Making common cause with various people of faith on that issue is not only productive, but rather likely to succeed, as alliances go.
I’m a scientist by training, a Catholic by birth
You were “born” catholic – does that mean religion is genetic, “racial”?
You were “trained” to be a Catholic every bit as much as you were “trained” to be a scientist.
Zeppo,
I am with you all the way!
I can hardly wait for EPU’s Bible Stories for Cosmopolitan Adults. I like them too.
Don’t forget to include the centerfolds !
Peterr I will take your advice and hope they discuss from a good faith perspective too.
Historically, the right wing has co-opted religion, resulting in a deadly combination – Killing progressive endeavors that would benefit all of society, preventing society from pursuing enlightened ideas.
Science, stem cells, global warming, energy, farming, mass transit, health care for all, birth control, overpopulation, loss of forests, species and habitat, pollution of earth, water and sky, wars, each of these issues are lost because religion and right wing fascism share the same bed.
The first title from EPU Press – “Catholic High School Girls in Trouble.” With illustrations. ;-)
This may be my own little theory, or maybe I got if from some book on the religion of the US Founders. But they made a distinction between the beliefs of religious sects (not “sex”, but “sects”, mind you) and a universal natural human morality, that was given to man from… somewhere or something. Some consensus on a common code of morality was necessary for society. The beliefs of particular religious sects (which was the term they also used for Christian denominations) in addition to the common morlaity was a purely private concern. I’ve never tried that out on one of my reactionary religious friends or relatives, but maybe that is a good place to start, conceptually. Might be good for reproductive rights, since there is no common religious consensus on when “life” begins.
Why do people study the bible and more so why do they give so much credence to this fairy tale?
Why do we need these “parables” to tell us how to behave?
Answer: We don’t!
There have been many increidble moral and ethical and caring and brilliant people who have no use for, interest in, nor association with religion. And there are many “secular” religionist who “grew up” with religion and do not practice it but still identify as Jew or a Christian, for example. They are only what they are because of their parents, and their grandparents and so on. But really that is nothing more than a bunch of non religious “genes”.
Religion is a club you either choose to belong to or are forced to be in as a child.
Can’t we make religion go away? Please???
There IS common ground. I am a life long Republican and for several years I was a member of an Evangelical “superchurch” and yet, I am a faithful reader and occasional poster here at FDL.
I found my common ground here at FDL, where I found others who have some of the same concerns I do.
Wespac at 4:00, I LOVE using Bible verses to show the difference between what Jesus said and what our government does, and have done so successfully. In my experience, it takes just a few verses until there is an agreement, which is where I have found “common ground”.
Peterr, thank you for a profound post on a subject that many choose to avoid discussing.
DefJef.
Freud tried. Lost.
As a psych guy, I consider a tendency toward religion to be part of our genetic wiring, naturally selected, quite functional for small bands on the savannah (most of our species history) but not so useful in many respects at this stage of global species saturation.
Wesgpc – Many of the “Founding Fathers” were considered, or greatly influenced by, Deism.
You can read all about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
The shorter answer would be that it is a belief in god, but humanistic as to life here on earth.
Its anti-transcendentalist, placing reason over revelation, and since, since transcendentalism sucks, we got lucky.
Since I’m a gay atheist, someone else will have to have this discussion. H. L. Mencken summed up my attitude pretty well,
(from memory so may not be exact).
But something else about this good religion vs. bad religion debate profoundly disturbs me. Even “good” religion, that does not seek to impose it’s restrictions on me give respectability to the whole realm of magical or mystical thinking. When people killed each other with clubs and knives it was bad enough but the thought of magical thinkers armed with nuclear weapons seriously scares me. I agree with Teddy, we would be better off without it.
Not to be unduly grumpy, I’d probably better go do my errands too and let you guys chat.
errrrrrrr make that “I am an occasional COMMENTER here at FDL…
Saying Peterr’s prayer
Zeppo They have a legend about the time when Whale fought with Bear, and much was destroyed.
Does that have something to do with the Plame case? *g*
The problem with the response of dismissing theocons as unwilling to engage in dialogue (they are) is that theocons, like ROVE, spout sayings that appeal to a broader group who just don’t have the time and energy to dig deep on their own. SO just like letting a Rove talking point go unaddressed, letting a theocon spout spew uninterrupted, damages the national discourse.
And the theocons are addressing the secular humanists when they spew – they have a very mainstream target. So you either learn to deal with that language pattern or lose toeholds with that community IMO.
ANd its a big one. Big losses of big communities in a democracy, especially one without much interest lately in the COnstitution, is dangerous for a political party’s or movement’s health, IMO.
Theocons do want to establish a homogenous society. How do you counter that? Lots of ways and to each their own, but it is often countered most effectively, when the appeal is to mainstream faith, with mainstream faith.
Not every tool in the belt is for everyone though. ;-)
I really like the scene from West Wing where Pres. Bartlett dresses down the Dr Laura clone.
As a practicing Catholic, I was always taught to be humble, love others, serve others. We are all human, we all sin, we can all ask for forgiveness. Many seem to lose sight of that.
Whether you are religious or not, it comes down to a choice: do you want to live in love, or live in fear? Living in love means putting the needs of others before your own, walking in other’s shoes, requiring empathy and humility. Living in fear requires antisocial behaviors to alleviate that fear-greed for example, where you want more when you have enough.
Christ taught us to live in love. The sacrements that Catholics are reminders of that love He has for us, and that same love should be shared with everyone. I choose to evangelize people not with my words, but with my love.
Obviously the Gambino Republican’s entire machine runs on fear as its fuel. My experience has been to engage a Theocon and just show love for them no matter how much irrationality they display. I shut a wingnut down hard recently by telling him I loved him, and that I would pray for both of us to discern the truth. He didn’t know what to do, other than to say “I love you” back! Took a conversation that could have spiraled into a typical conversation between political opponents and elevated it. He didn’t know what hit him!
Prayers and sympathies to Jane’s family.
Wonderful discussion.
The word religion comes from the Latin Religure (I probebly have the spelling wrong on that) which means to “re-connect”. We must return to the root meaning.
When I find myself in conversation with a fundamentalist Christian who supports Bush – I bring up Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers. It’s a great metaphore.
After all, Jesus did say that “these things and greater shall ye do also”… or words to that effect.
Pach – I don’t think that religion is hard wired into us, but I do believe that depression, or “depressive thought,” both clinical and otherwise, is, and that is what religion has always preyed upon: original sin, concepts of heaven and hell, toil on earth vs. the afterlife, etc.
Drive by …
Thanks Peterr,
This is a very important post, thank you for the insight.
Shell,
Bernie Ward Kicks ass. I love KGO – when I can get reception
LindaR,
If you want to do something for a local candidate Rob Haswell is running for the 4th AD and he’s going to be at the Rocklin parade tomorrow. I’m going to try to go
L8r
EPU’s Bible Stories – LOL.
SinSay was prescient.
Are you saving up, “That Weekend With Rude Pundit” for the Anniversary MegaEdition? *g*
In the late seventies my mother married a minister (religiousscience.org) and later became one herself. My previous exposure to religion as a twelve year old was Baptist. Even as a child I was very skeptical and somewhat afraid in that environment. Upon my introduction to science of mind I found, in tears of joy, the very open and accepting spirit Peterr calls for from all of us. People from nearly every denomination came together in a spirit of love and acceptance. By choice I have not been to church in years, yet carry the spirit of acceptance with me always.
Peterr I have always enjoyed your spirit and intent. I don’t think most progressives are the problem. “Progressive” inherently implies a multi/non-denominational political inclusion in my booklet.
Finding common ground with a TheoCon, requires very little. Football, kill the opposition at any cost. Talk in football formula. I am sorry to say the only time I find a TheoCon type willing to discuss alternate ways of thinking is when they are clearly in a position of utter defeat, beyond humiliation, or extremely intoxicated.
The TheoCons I worry about have no interest an open dialogue, as we see every day on the television and in the papers.
How do we engage in conversation with someone who refuses? Sorry to say. we must defeat and humiliate, then and only then we may nurture the relationship where possible. TheoCons do not include or nurture, it is not in the manual.
Now, I can’t wait to read the comments. Fantastic Post!!!
Now THAT was funny!
Oh, one more thing, one more Catholic raises his hand
A proper comment would take hours. So, I’ll just put in a good word for tolerance. Tolerance is what separates people of goodwill from the bigots. It’s the strength to endure someone who is different without being threatened. Tolerance is why America became great.
My family says I’ve got too many books as it is, but I’ve just got to get on the EPU Press mailing list!
EPU #96: you forgot that it also feeds megalomania and pride and sadism in many people.
“EPU’s Bible Stories”
Is that coming up next? Oh man, where’s my popcorn ; )
my 94 above – should have been “… are NOT addressing secular humanists…”
mary 95,
You have identified a huge problem. Our democrats get on the tube and say, “me too”.
These foolish, spineless dems, attempt to make it easy for themselves by co opting the rethug fundy crap. Its a huge error.
They’ve got to use their face time wisely.
They should push “separation of church and state” – as the founding fathers intended and provided for in our country’s founding documents.
They’ve got to cut out the “me, too” crap and stand up for freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
DefJef (90) says can’t we make religion go away, please?
Nope, the wish for that is as much a fantasy as others see religion. I was raised and trained in a faith generations deep in family history and the faith is so much a part of family identity that being a questioner meant to me that I might not be a welcome part of my biological family (over 700 descendents of my great=grandparents and counting – those Mennonite families could be big), but they still let me in, even though they know me as the “unusual one who married the Jewish guy.”
And even as I canter about the world, in my bones, I understand the way that religion has shaped and given meaning to some very beautiful lives (heck, it even saved my father’s life as he was a child in a famine and other religious types sent food kitchens to Russia in the 20’s so that he would get fed. My oldest cousin starved to death in the same famine).
I am fine with some not finding the need for that spectrum of belief in their lives. I am fine with others finding it adding a rich dimension to their lives. What I am not fine with is the imposition of one on the other (Mennonites began promoting the separation of church and state back in the 1500’s. It is a recurring struggle.)
No, religion isn’t going away. Sometimes, I talk to my family in their terms (Blessed are the poor, beware of false prophets, etc.). Sometimes I try to listen better.
Sometimes I just run away to another country for awhile, and as I did a few weeks ago in a ceremony, press my forehead to the forehead of a traditional Maori woman and we let our ancestors commune through our memories and her beliefs. Boy, was my deceased Mennonite, rigid grandma surprised to find herself among a crowd of Maori women! My new Maori friend would say that we go on learning after death. I just wish that some of us would go on learning before death too.
I get a kick out of people who believe their giant brains have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a higher being doesn’t exist.
The “no doubt” crowds on either end of the question are the troublemakers.
” The Omniscient One And The Rude One: The Lost Weekends Vol.!”
Wesgpc – Those could all be viewed as symptoms of depression, at least from a behavioralist point of view.
Busted – I’m going to put new shelves up so I can collect the whole set.
EPU – the way things are going, from an economists point of view soon, too.
Thomas Jefferson:
.. no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
And, although I can’t research attribution now (the girl needs to be put to bed), it might also have been that great man that said “It makes no difference if my neighbor worships one god or eight; it neither breaks my leg nor empties my bank account.”
Spirituality serve its purpose best to help explain and come to terms with the pain and suffering of our human existence. If you chuck that all away, you also lose the coping mechanism it provides, the vast perspective necessary to get up in the morning and keep struggling. Our culture promotes that suffering is avoidable, leaving people personally responsible for the pain they feel, just another disease to treat. It inures us to the suffering of others in the world, and detaches us from the viceral and transformation power of compassion.
gar,
I have no problem with anyone having faith in a higher being.
My problem is that the fascists who run our government are allied with religion. If you are with the religio-fascists, then you are for the devastation of our planet for profit (their profit, not yours).
EPU #111: you a psychologist? Why don’t you whip up a Skinner Box to train us poor benighted religious people out of our delusions. You could sell in Amazon. Combo pack with EPU’s Religious Stories for Wicked Adults. I’ll take Bible, Hindu. Buddhist one will be boring, unless it is the one about Buddha’s first disciple getting seduced by a young babe and then the babe is quicker at getting enlightened than the disciple. I wonder what you will do with that one.
Maybe you could pack your Religious stories with the new Armageddon Game. Blast them secularists to bits and then change sides if you get bored. It’s the new new action fundamentalism.
#77ck – You do know Betty Bowers is parody don’t you? She’s a lot like Jesus General… Here is her latest snark on Coulter’s “Godless”:
http://www.bettybowers.com/coulter.html
Seriously though, you make a good point. The simple fact is that the Theocons have literally declared war on the “secularists and the pagans”. Getting to a point where you get the true Christian to understand how unchristian that is can be pretty tricky….
gar – that was brilliant; you got me. I feel so changed now that you have shown me the light that I am going to right now transcendentalize with Dog.
I hope I didn’t missinterpret your missive.
But why would you care what I or anyone else believes?
——————————–
Yeah, I know, a troll or someone playing a troll. But still.
As long as one practices the golden rule and is kind to others, then my belief is that is all which is necessary to “walk in the light”. And as for a God or whatever, it is difficult for me not to believe there isn’t ’someting’ that set ‘things’ in motion. When I think about the big-bang and how it happened so fast, and the concept of infinity, I am in a state of “beyond-awe”. Perhaps it is for me, as Rene Descartes proclaimed in his Ontological argument, that God exists because I think he does. Cogito ergo sum. It is only when religion is used for something selfish, political, and self-serving, that it becomes something to be avoided. I think.
Wesgpc – But the Hindu ones will make up for the Buddhist ones.
Peterr,
Thank you for bringing this up. It would be a natural extension of who you are as a person and a pastor.
I was raised strict Catholic, but broke with that over 30 years ago. I also had the privelege of being teacher/mentor to people from all over the world’ muslims, hindus, and everything in between. Those students taught me more than I ever taught them.
Just a couple of quick notes—
Did you know that the Hindus:
a) Have an epic story analogous to the Great Flood with Noah? Only their god landed somewhere in India.
b) Believe that looking at a woman with lust is the same as having commited that act?
c) Accept homosexuality and consider it a special blessing when a group of them show up at a wedding or birth celebration?
Did you know that the Japanese and Korean bowing and ceremonies are simply to honor the “true” spirit (Christians say soul) within an individual?
It was from the wife of the former finance minster of Indonesia (a Muslim) that I learned a little of the art of soft power. Other than never embarrassing their husbands publicaly, and in some countries dress codes etc, the Muslim women have the emotional freedom to say whatever she is feeling, in the most harsh and explicit language within the home-something no western woman would do unless she was actively seeking a divorce.
The word religion comes from the latin “religere” meaning to return to source. The word “god” is simply an olde English word (Beowulf era) that means “good” or “all good”.
To me religion is an abused codification to gain power and control over another. prefer the word “spirituality”. The American Indian created an amalgamation of the principles found in most other so called relgions of the world. If you read the Bible, the Quaran, the Torah, the Baghda(sp?) Gita or any other book you will find the teachings more alike that different. Simply “Do unto others as ye would like them to do unto you”.
Why is it that “religious” fundamentalism takes root in places around the globe; where there are a few wealthy and most are poor, that education is poorly done, where prospects for jobs or earning a living are menial at best, where government is restrictive and/or repressive?
And yes, I am including America in that number. If you look at statics of the poorest states, where education is dismal, you will also find the James Dobsons, Jerry Falwells, and Reed propering.
I am an agnostic, who believes that there is a spirituality inherent in each of us and that there is some form of “great spirit” if you will. Can I have a converstaion with those of different beliefs? Yes, as long as it is rational and explains rather than devolves to “blame and shame” paridigms. So ultimately, I have little to no tolereance for “raving fundamentalists” who like to lable everyone else as bad if they are not as brainwashed as they are. I will leave those type of conversations to special people like you who have the spirit and true willingness to dialogue with them. My spirituality is my private affair, and I resent those that try to “stuff” a whiny, demanding, ideological “god” or “lord” down my throat.
In my experience, people don’t really want to talk about religion in any meaningful way because it hurts their brains. The vast majority really don’t want to talk about death, they really don’t want to talk about moral or social consequences. They want to watch the game or play xbox or drink another glass of wine.
I was raised Roman Catholic, a fervent believer and remained so until I was an adult and really started to study it. The more I learned the more I discovered how totally baseless and silly my faith was. Today, I am proud to proclaim that I am an Atheist.
If we ever really had a genuine dialogue in America about religion, I think a lot of people would find themselves on my path, the path to rejection of religion. That’s partly why I think the Theocrats want to suppress science and critical thinking in this country.
Sam Harris recently laid out the problem of religious belief in his book, “The End of Faith.” The majority of people who are religious do no direct harm to greater society by believing in silly things. But because you can’t criticize someone else’s beliefs without also inviting attack of your own, we have adopted a “hands-off” rule in the US: everyone’s faith is valid. But this is certainly NOT TRUE. People who have violent religious beliefs need to be told that their beliefs are dangerous and destructive. But you can’t, because how can you say someone else’s gods are wrong when they tell their followers to kill infidels, but that your gods are right when they tell you to circumsize your baby, or to deny ordinary medical treatment?
Thanks for bringing up this topic. I don’t really talk religion on my own blog because I know that I’m in the minority on this topic.
Peace,
Tim
http://timsnamelessblog.blogspot.com/
hackworth at 41: Edict of Milan was 311 A.D.
I’m out of my element here as I avoid church religiously. Most of my Sundays are spent in the Tabernacle of the Big Truck. And for the Catholics in the house, I always offer up a silent prayer to Our Lady Of Perpetual Motion, the Patron Saint of fatass truck drivers.
We’ve been talking a bit about the Bible, but there are also some big blind spots in the TheoCon views with regard to the Constitution. Two of them bear mentioning here.
(1) God appears nowhere in it. Not “God” or “divine providence” or any other phrasing. There is no reference to God anywhere in the Constitution. (The Declaration of Independence, yes; but the supreme governing legal document of our nation, no.)
(2) Religion appears twice, and both times it is raised in the negative. First, it says there shall be no religious test that must be passed before one can hold public office at any level; second, there shall be no official state-established religion.
That’s it for God and religion in the constitution, and these are both good things, in my book.
Cuomo ended his speech at Notre Dame by summing up how he believes he can be a good Catholic (in his case) in the world:
Sounds good to me. Sounds kind of like this place, with all the varieties of belief we’ve got running around the place.
I’ve got to run off and get dinner ready, but I’ve loved this whole discussion. I had no idea where it would go, but I didn’t doubt it would be good.
Thanks for not disappointing, and I’ll pop in later to see what I’ve missed!!
OT
Norah O’Donnell on Oberman’s show is simply an Bush shill… The interview with the released Gitmo prisoner was amazing. Not enough push back by him and the filmmaker, but one thing is clear:
There is no proof that Bin Laden was responsible for 9.11. None.. whatsoever, but a “story” has been spread by the MSM and this has been more than enough to justify bombing and attacking both Afghanistan and Iraq. 9.11 was the lie that almost all americans have swolled.
Oops… it was Hardball, not Countdown.
OFG,
Don’t forget Our Lady of the BFH. She helps us mekaniks keep you goin’down the road also.Btw,What are you running? Kenworth and a Cummins, Pete,Frieghtliner?
defJef at 126:
I believe there is videotape of Osama BL taking credit for 9/11. But alas, he could just be bragging to his home boys.
Noron made me stop eating dinner– I almost lost it and broke the teevee. ( dinner was a lovely red snapper and salad too, so I am doubly angry!) She is a lost piece of sh*t and I now despise her laugh as much as I hate Rita’s voice.
Barf and Stimson is a total a-hole, too.
Lina,
Thanks for the correction. I was flying by the seat of my pants. 311 AD it was.
In the DaVinci Code, there was a meeting of numerous Christian sects, wherein various leaders determined which books they would use to make “the bible” and which books to exclude. Do you know the name and time and place of that meeting?
I think as a discussion of how progressives can interact with what is a very large faith based community to form alliances to address common values, this is taking on shades of “don’t proselytize me!” Not that there is anything wrong with that – or with a spin off onto anything else. It serves to show, though, how it is that the progressive movement can lose appeal or enthusiastic backing from mainstream churches and their parishoners.
Maybe no one wants that backing, but it is hard to put together enough votes to carry certain issues without htose votes.
Most mainstream churches ARE in favor of separation of church and state. But people who attend are also in favor of –religion. That’s why they are there. So the question of how to appeal to them in a manner that activates their deeply held believes without falsely assuming the Falwellian position – well, it’s an interesting and IMO important question. OTOH – I am the queen of spinoffs and OTs, and usually wherever people here take their discussions is pretty interesting too.
As to a mainstream (Methodist – although back in the McCarthy days it was called the Red CHurch) take on separation issues, this is from my link above to a recommendation of the Theologians and Nazis video:
In my own preaching on the war, I have naturally gravitated toward those Christians who heroically opposed the Nazis:
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Maximilian Kolbe, Corrie ten Boom, and the residents of the mountain village of Le Chambon in France, who hid several thousand Jews. From my preaching one might gather that World War II was a time of heroic Christian resistance to an obviously demonic enemy.
Watching Theologians Under Hitler places the war in a more uncomfortable light. The church failed miserably to oppose Hitler and speak up for the Jews. How did this happen? The partial answer is that most of the church’s major theologians supported Hitler.
. . .
Iraq war hawks often compare Saddam Hussein to Hitler; opponents of the war liken the U.S. to the Third Reich. More useful will be the questions that parishioners ask after seeing images of bishops offering the Nazi salute and avidly shaking Hitler’s hand. When is the church too cozy with the state? What sort of complicity with evil could we be blind to now? The questions wouldn’t be interesting if the answers were obvious.
. . .
For it was liberal, well-educated university people who provided the intellectual and theological impetus for Hitler’s policies. Martin makes clear that a crucial precursor to removing Jews from Germany was the effort by theologians championing the Enlightenment to remove particular cultural baggage from the gospel, including the reality of Jesus’ Jewishness. Ideas have consequences-something academics, of all people, sometimes forget.
Peterr- what about someone like Bush who says he makes his decisions by talking to God (or doing what God tells him to do)? How to deal with that kind of person? And what “God” is he talking to anyway? I guess this is the sort of behavior that makes me cynical about “faith” and “religion”. Does “religion” trump “ethics”? Seems like certain types of people can consider themselves to be religious (and holier-than-thou) but be wholly unethical.
Back from mowing the grass. I thought I might get some flames, big time. Thanks for all the thoughtful responses from everyone, although I do want to keep it all respectful.
Peterr, too bad that we all can’t sit down after work sometime and have a long conversation. You sound like someone I would really like to chat with, and I don’t mean “to argue”.
Nicea 325AD
Peterr:
In the name of God, (as you acknowledge) so many murders have been committed that they are uncountable. You cannot argue with people who have their minds made up. My God, and your’s too, I’ll bet, doesn’t sanction murder (as in Thou shalt not murder), and I can’t see how any good Jew, Christian, or Muslim (and because I’ve left some out doesn’t mean I think they sanction it either), can live as a good whatever if they sanction murder. I cannot argue with those who say “let us wipe the (insert religion here) off the face of the earth, because they do not believe in (insert brand of God here). For they do not realize that there is but one God, no matter the name. God is on no one’s side! God is. That’s all there is too it, and the rest is politics with God as an excuse, and those who need an excuse will find one (like WMD). There is a very good reason that the founding fathers wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights the way they did. Peterr, we are all (I’m sorry to say) monsters, and the best one can do as an individual is to try to live one’s life not as a monster, but as Zadikim. The Theocons are very far from that point of view. I don’t know what they believe in, and I don’t think they do either. And that makes it VERY difficult! The bible, (at least in my view) is meant to be used for comfort (among other things)not as a weapon.
lina 130,
If you have looked at that tape… and compare it with other tapes of Bin Laden… you will see that it is not the same man.
And even so that “evidence” would not stand up in a court of law.
What is the evidence?
DefJef
A K-Whopper with five hundred and fifty yellow kitties turnin’ the wheel. Eighteen gears w/2 speed aux.
Valley,
Bush talks to Dog and thinks he’s talking to God. Recon, too, he’s prayed more than a few times to the Porcelain goddess.
Lol, For the uninitiated, I will now translate OFG’s response.
K-Whopper=Kenworth.
Five hundred and fifty yellow kitties= Caterpillar engine rated at 550 horsepower.
18 gear transmission with a 2 speed auxillary splitter.
Nice ride.
Oh , I forgot to ask. OFG, W900?
Peter,
wonderful post – thank you for starting this dialogue – so sorry I missed ya
*ilson beat me to it:
First Council of Nicea – 325 – out of which came the Nicene Creed.
It’s my view that religion mostly comes about through a common human need to create meaning in the face of death. The meaning is often expressed in the form of story, or poetry, or symbol, or incantation, or some other way of giving form to the inexpressible. And then people start to forget that the inexpressible is really, well, inexpressible, and start to take the poems and images and whatever else, literally. And then before you know it, you have orthodoxy and men in black robes shaking their fists in the air and cursing the entire rest of the world.
It’s also my view that people, given any choice at all, drift towards a religion that expresses what they already believe. Or, if there is not much choice, they interpret the religion they inherited in a way that expresses who they are. And given the a source text like the Bible, they have quite a lot of leeway for interpretation. In effect, they create a god in their own image. If if enough people start to think the same way, pretty soon you have a schizm (sp) or a reformation or a counter-reformation and a lot of fussing and fuming and maybe a lot of blood before everyone settles down again.
And since people gravitate towards a belief system that reinforces their core and often unconscious beliefs as well as their emotional needs, it is pretty hard to convince a person that his or her religion beliefs are incorrect.
Finally, I’m not sure tolerance (i.e. putting up with) is too useful a response to religious differences. I’m thinking curiousity produces more interesting results.
Janet
Final word for EPU: properly understood there is a lot of psychotherapy in religion. You could interpret the verse from James saying that [You rich people] “wanting more and more will eat your body like fire” to mean that they are going to hell. Or you could read it this way, more about the psychology of endless greed:
The Fire Sermon
http://www.angelsinc.com/dgsan…..ePrint.htm
The Burning House
http://www.trinity.edu/rnadeau/Asian Religions/Lecture Notes 1330-2/Mahayana Buddhism/Buddha Burning House.htm
Self-righteous dogmatic beliefs, and worrying about other people doing what your particular religious sect thinks is moral to please your god is just the surface stuff. You have to dig down deeper into what all that psychic violence is doing for them, or what function it is serving. I do not see that stuff as true religion at all. So some may say my tolerance for other beliefs ends at that point. Dogmatic beliefs –so what. Even the demons believe in one god and they tremble. Extreme fundamentalists tremble a lot too, wonder if they ever ask themselves why.
Right now I’m praying at the Church of Russ Feingold. Mea culpa if this has already been posted, but this interview with Russ in GQ answers my prayers. Except for that part about Sharon Stone. Blasphemy!
http://men.style.com/gq/featur…..ntent_4549
I think there is a huge problem with “churches” being tax exempt. Because it’s used now as a political weapon. A pastor in Pasadena speaks against the war in Iraq and his church is threatened with losing its special status. Elsewhere, church leaders tell their congregations how God would want them to vote, and as long as it supports the TheoCon line, A-OK.
Janet @145. Good post! Thanks. I like your point about tolerance. That does sort of imply something that you are gritting your teeth over but refraining from saying what you might really think.
new thread — from God to the Golden Calf (was Aaron right?)
What bothers me is that a lot of the so-called true believers of all religions live lives that condone cruelty and violence against others and the planet and think they are going to be redeemed in the next life. It’s just wrong. It’s another USE of religion and EXCUSE for inhumanity. If we do not live humanely while we are here, please tell me why we should have an afterlife of pleasure and joy and forgiveness.
Janet -
yes, yes, I have the same issue with the word tolerance – and I’m not usually a grammar nazi
Who knew the Golden Calf was a Wisconsin Holstein?
My comment about wishing religion to go away… was really from the public square… from the government, from the courts and the schools and so on.
I don’t care what “beliefs” anyone has as long as it doesn’t impact on others.
Religion is foisted on children who are not given the chance to say “no” I don’t want it.
Religion should be something taught to adults who are competant to decide if they want to join in. It needs to be an “opt in” deal… not one where we have to grow up and realize what a “bill of goods” much of it is.
Now these theocons come along and want to treat everyone as their children and convert them to their view of the world… a world where religion and fundamentalism guides their actions.
We already know that fundamentalism is anti feminist. We know that and that is all we need to know to know that there is no meeting ground… Isn’t this like asking for a dialogue between meat eaters and vegans about animal “welfare”?
I am a liberal/progressive and a practicing Catholic as are my husband and friends. We are a minority in the church but not an especially small one. I believe in complete separation of state and church. My case is the reverse of many of you–I grew up in an atheist home and became a convert in my thirties. I guess I’m a crazy mixture of Catholic and existentialist (I never wrote a paper in college which didn’t have the word existential in it), but religion for me is my way of imposing order on chaos and not a way to impose my views on a pluralistic society.
What Wesgpc said:
“Self-righteous dogmatic beliefs, and worrying about other people doing what your particular religious sect thinks is moral to please your god is just the surface stuff. You have to dig down deeper into what all that psychic violence is doing for them, or what function it is serving.”
Wish I’d said that, because it is exactly what I was stumbling towards in my last post.
VG @ 148– a particular pet peeve of mine, thanks. And while I am at it– these federally faith based initiatives also stick in my *&%#@, ahem, craw.
Angie —
Yes! I saw a bit of Norah today, while waiting for Keith. She is trying her hardest to be exactly like Chrissie the Blowhard. She is not smart enough to make her OWN way. I did love it, though, when the tortured guy and the Brit who made the movie were on. The Brit was talking about Guantanamo (sp?) and she literally SCREAMED, “Well, BUSH SAID he wanted to close that place.” The Brit calmly said, “Then why doesn’t he?” I cracked up. Norah was just silent. I noticed that when they left, the Brit did NOT say good bye.
John in Sacto — I live in Sacto too — don’t know if you tried to watch God Talk, but I have found that the static is often terrible at 10 pm, for his regular show, but rarely on Sunday mornings.
nasch at 154 – well said.
federally FUNDED is what I meant to write.
DefJef at 88 says:
Religion is a club you either choose to belong to or are forced to be in as a child.
Can’t we make religion go away? Please???
John Locke beat you to the first of these assertions, speaking of churches as voluntary associations. I rather agree with him, they are voluntary. I choose to belong to one. My choice is mine, your choice is yours. I have no interest in making your choice, whatever it is, “go away”. It would seem to me that making mine go away is a pretty uncivil wish.
To the general topic could I add just one thing…a variation to something I wrote a on the “Fight Back” thread a couple of topics ago. There, I said something to the effect that we all speak with many languages, and we instinctively switch from one to the other as we guage our audiences. The content remains the same, the language with which we cloak it varies according to our understanding of what works in the particular conversation in which we are engaged.
I think that applies in conversations with “Theocons” as well. But here I’d like to add the distinction between public and private rhetoric. I use a public rhetoric when condemning Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell. When I refer to Pat Robertson I can barely contain my rage…I’d call him a fuckwit if that weren’t an insult to perfectly decent fuckwits worldwide.
But when I talk to a conservative Christian one on one I use a private rhetoric. If I really want to convince the person or get him/her to at least consider what I have to say I don’t try to humiliate him/her into submission as if I were armwrestling in the corner tavern. And if I don’t care about convincing, why have the conversation in the first place?
I’m one with Locke again On Toleration and also with John Milton, (Areopagitica) in taking it as an act of faith that the human mind is wired to be receptive to truth…in fact, perhaps so wired, that in the fact of truth well reasoned is incapable of deliberately choosing error. Torture doesn’t work, bullying just creates sycophants and liars, so what bother?
I interpret Peterr’s post to represent the kind of distinction between public and private rhetoric I’m trying to describe way way down here. If so, I think he’s spot on. If not, I apologize in advance for misinterpreting him. :-)
I’m finding myself seduced into posting more often here all the time, because so many people write wish such passion and such literacy that I enjoy reading what they have to say whether I agree with it wholly, in part, or not at all. Thank you all for that.
The preview thingy seems not to be working so if I’ve bollixed the code and/or the spelling and/or everything else, I absolve myself.
Deos = Theos = Zeus = Zeus Pater = Jupiter, God the Father.
For Northern Europeans, Tiwaz = Teus = Tuesday.
Enthuse is from the Greek — enthusiasm = to be filled with the power of the gods.
Alpha dominant individuals have twice the seritonin than beta submissives, but yogis in meditation have the highest seritonin levels of all.
And that is why we have religion — to be Enthused, to be filled with the power of the gods, is the apotheosis of brain neurochemisty.
erk. I didn’t close a bold. Forgive, forgive, forgive, and rectify, please.
Shell– I already gave MSNBC my feedback– she has to go. My SO said, omg she is so emotional– what is her relationship to the Bush family, anyway???
Well, I wasn’t sure where this thread would wind up. Often, discussions of religion and religious differences can deteriorate pretty quickly. My God, was this ever civilized!
But what I notice most is how this conversations seems to differ so much from other conversations we have about how to deal with the right wing. Many prior threads took a “no quarter” with the right wing whackos approach. They need to be called out, ridiculed, discredited, disgraced, etc. Yet here we are, discussing how we might best have a constructive dialogue with the religious right.
Is Peterr sending us a larger message here? Or is dealing with the religious right a special case/exception, different from how one might deal with the political right? And if so, why?
Angie — whoa, that’s big thinking. I tend to think she is after Chrissie. LOL Who knows though? She is obviously trying to get his slot by being JUST like him.
Psssst! Norah! If they want a Chrissie, they will keep the REAL Chrissie. What a stupid twit.
For anyone who wants to learn something about grownup spirituality, which is in short supply in our society, I recommend “Speaking of Faith” on NPR Sunday evenings.
I’ve learned that when speaking with fundamentalists, one needs to recognize that for the fundie there is only ONE truth and that truth is ABSOLUTE. Their belief system is a closed system. So you can’t use reason to convince a fundie that some other religious viewpoint might have some merit. But you might be able to convince them that God is not a Republican.
Okay EPU, here is a preliminary list. Sorry to blogpimp, but I’m not sure how to put all the links in a post here.
http://blogolodeon.blogspot.co…..verse.html
ck
Perfect explanation! Anyone seen that movie ‘What the Bleep Do We Know?’ Its a little cheesy, but I’m a big sucker for the intersection between quantuum mechanics and spirituality. I made my girls watch it too, for the message that you create your reality and your neurochemistry, and thus have the power to change both.
kristinejoy — I thought “What the Bleep . . .” was an intelligent design promo. Am I mistaken?
I would preface my remarks with the statement that I am not a Christian, and I do not care what beliefs are espoused, as long as they remain privately held while about in public, and are practised mutually among consenting minds.
I find the injection of the fundamentalist credo into a political arena that must represent all irrespective of faith, in a fashion that elevates said credo above others repugnant in extremis.
Now, if an individual has a deep belief which ’sustains them’, but still cherishes the use of rational thought and is actively involved in the secular world…a dialogue might begin, perhaps involving how they put their faith into practise in the daily toil, contrasting that with how they percieve the alleged ‘faith’ of others in government service is being used…Are these acts performed in line with basic scriptural thought, serving all mankind or do they reflect mere political opportunism?
Are ‘failures’ to hew to responsible expectations regarding outcomes of faith put into practise, and lusty declamations of spiritual guidance while cynically administering power over the public commonweal for the purposes of enrichment failures of the flesh or of the spirit, and should repeated ‘failure’ be forgiven or discouraged through political disemployment?
Unfortunately, if individuals or groups are using their belief to reject the secular out of hand, nothing short of terminal cognitive dissonance will change that stance…And if they are merely pandering to believers as a stratagem for duping them into a base as part of their lust for power, this too would be a waste of time.
In the first instance, only the granting of the isolation that they so fervently desire in order to create a superimposition of their desired ‘reality’ onto the temporal world will do.
In the second… Only righteous and relentless scorn, and sustained broad-spectrum disclosure of their Janusian hanky-panky, leading to destruction of their reputation and ability to damage the public good, will suffice.
Mike 5:26. That was a very interesting read.
Scarecrow – I think that in the political give and take public speech arena, in responding to assertions, you are trying to generally catch the middle and very often that it through counterattack.
IMO, when the middle is very largely (as polls show) faith based to some extent, a counterattack has to be framed differently. It is still no quarter for me, in that I don’t allow ground. But a response of “you freakin idiot to even believe in God” is not a counterattack that will win that faith based middle. SO it’s not a matter of quarter or no quarter, it’s a matter of responding with effective responses. The attack has to go to the misapplication of faith, while respecting faith, if it is intended to catch the faith based middle. If they aren’t your target, then the response will be different.
Thanks in part to PZ Myers and his wonderful blog and seeing Richard Dawkins’ “Root of All Evil,” I’ve resolved to be more militant about my athiesm. In light of that, and this wonderful thread, I have a couple of thoughts to share about having a conversation with believers of any kind. I don’t think I’m repeating much of anything, but if I am, I apologize. I think thought 3 is the most important, so feel free to skip 1 & 2.
1) Regardless of whether or not you believe, trying to use the Bible/Koran/Toah/whatever to argue against believers is ALWAYS a losing proposition. Even if it works in a few isolated instances (like the Suffrage debate Peterr referenced), it moves you onto believers’ home turf where, as others here have already said, it is easy for them to twist their scripture back to their own advantage. Further, it only reinforces the idea that religion has to be part of the debate.
2)Personally, I agree that religion is just a nice name for a superstition and that all faiths are illogical and hypocritical. However, if you’re actually trying to have a conversation with them, telling them this is not productive because it turns the debate into a personal attack. I know that is often what religious people turn debates with athiests (or people of other religions) into, but I think we also know how useful that usually is. Second, I think most religious people are used to the inconsistancies in their beliefs, so this is not likely to affect them.
3)Finally, we absolutely MUST turn this whole ridiculous situation back into a debate about the common source of our rights and obligations, which is the Constitution of the United States of America. Rather than knowing the bible, it is far better to have an intimate knowledge of the Constitution. The simple fact of the matter is that a religiously guided government is incompatible with the founding principles and documents of our nation and Bush and his ilk have given us many, many examples of this over the last 5 years. The Constitution, however, has proven to be an inclusive document and should always be our first and greatest asset in the debate over our PUBLIC policies and beliefs.
As a character I once wrote said….
“Ach, God. Certainly God, God is on our side, God is on their side, of course. You think a voice is going to come down from on high and say ‘I am not!’ You can justify anything by saying God is on your side, no? Who can argue? Think about it, Nicola, we make it okay to kill anyone by telling our young soldiers God is on our side!”
Derision never works. It creates hostility and works against the desired outcome – to keep church and state separated.
In my rural little town, fundamental thinking is everywhere. And so, to get those curiosity juices flowing it is advantageous to use the language they know best.
Religion has been used as a political tool for at least 2000 years. The operative word is “used”… whereas a sense of belonging to something bigger than oneself and ones perceptions is, in my opinion, innate.
You can’t convince anybody of anything. You can be taught a historical perspective and then along comes Howard Zinn’s ‘A People’s History of the United States’, brain engages and that which you took for granted as HISTORY becomes PROPAGANDA. Everyone comes to conclusions based on their experience, and as that experience changes – as new ideas come into play, we grow. We all have a capacity for change.
When you speak of Jesus as a revolutionary; as a progressive; as a champion of the poor and downtrodden, most fundamentalists will surprisingly agree. An idea will grow, and the perspective expands.
cynic– brilliant words, indeed and of course you are right.
Stupid humans, eh?
scarecrow-
Really? I guess you get what you want from it then. I didn’t think the luddite intelligent design crowd was into quantum physics. It was definitely heavy on the spiritual aspect, but made for interesting discussions. I guess I’ll research it a little more.
Phineas #174: this non-superstitious religous person agrees with your 3). Whether athiest, agnostic, or religious or vaguely “spiritual”, all should agree that 3) represents true facts. The silly and dishonest attempt to falsify the history of the US and beliefs of the US Founders has to be fought directly. No quarter or tolerance for individual beliefs there. Facts are facts.
I have no tolerance at all for junk I see and hear (including lots of garbage on rightwing blogs) that claim that the US was originally a “Christian nation.” Or try to portray Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams as conventional Christians. Or Madison as approving of national religious observances. If Madison were president today, he would not issue any proclamation with even the slightest religious tinge. Jemmy wouldn’t ask the nation to pray, that is for sure. He refused to do so during his presidency, and tried to stop Congress form paying for a chaplain out of public money but couldn’t stop it. Hamilton was only conventionally religious person I know of among the founders, and he came to that late in life.
Have to fight falsehoods to the contrary tooth and nail.
Twisted Martini at # 95 hits the nail on the head.
“…Whether you are religious or not, it comes down to a choice: do you want to live in love, or live in fear? Living in love means putting the needs of others before your own, walking in other’s shoes, requiring empathy and humility. Living in fear requires antisocial behaviors to alleviate that fear-greed for example, where you want more when you have enough.”…
That’s what is wrong with this Administration and with the Religious Right. They live in fear. They do not understand the Jesus of the Gospels, the Jesus who said, ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’.
And unfortunately, the Religious Right screams so much louder than those of us who wish to humbly follow our faith. There are some positive voices – Jim Wallis of Sojourners, who wrote “God’s Politics”, Former President Jimmy Carter who wrote of our endangered values.
The separation of Church and State is critical for the wellbeing of our nation, as is absolute respect for every religion, culture and race. Our current Administration seeks to divide us, and the Religious Right play directly into their hand.
I am a Baptist minister’s wife, and I truly am afraid for what our nation is becoming.
Just arrived and haven’t read the comments; sorry if I’m repeating. I (an atheist)attended the religion roundtable at Yearly Kos. There was an interesting mix of diverse religous viewpoints – Christians of many flavors, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists, agnostics, a Wiccan, and some folks (mostly gay folks) whose psyches had been severely f*cked with by their respective religions. (Many had gravitated to Buddhism, BTW.)
Two common themes emerged that everyone in the room agreed on: the necessity of separation of church and state, and an abhorrence of politicians exploiting and manipulating believers via their religious faith. I think framing the discussion around these rather universal points could be the most fruitful.
And TeddySF at 8, I’m in about the same place you are, but I don’t think non-believers can afford to sit out this discussion; religion affects too much of our lives, whether we subscribe to it or not. And we have a right and a perhaps a duty to make sure our $0.02 is represented in the dialog.
Mostly, I’m an agnostic — we create god in our own image, because that is all we can comprehend.
I believe in religion because I believe in spirituality — every religion is vessel that holds spiritual truths, but the vessel must be cracked open to reveal the truths within.
When it comes to religion, I am an Iconoclast and Iconophile.
That said, here is my belief:
There is no separation from God.
Love is Light,
And Light, Love –
it is the
one stuff,
the godstuff
of the universe –
It is both sides
of the equation:
E = mc-Squared . . .
It is not always, or perhaps even often, possible to have a discussion with True Believers about their True Beliefs. I am trying, but failing, to imagine Michael Servetus — as close to a patron saint as Unitarians get — “working out his differences” or reaching an “understanding” with the trinitarians who were tying him to the stake at which he was about to be burned. It may well be possible to find common ground on particular issues, like environmental stewardship, with all sorts of people with whom you have nothing else in common. And it always worthwhile to remember that not every Protestant is an evangelical, and not every evangelical is a Theocon. Finally, even if you conclude that a reasonable discussion of anything important is impossible, it really isn’t necessary to tell your next door neighbor that you think she’s a benighted idiot. It is perfectly acceptable just to say hello and admire her children. And then try to make sure that you get more people to the polls than she does.
I am way late to this discussion, and as a result have not read as carefully as I should all of the comments, so apologies in advance if I repeat what others may have said.
Peterr – what an excellent post, and a great topic for discussion. I wholeheartedly agree that dialogue is going to be an integral part of working – as much as we can – with those whose beliefs are different.
I have always been a big believer in the idea that how one lives one’s life, how one conducts him- or herself, touches people in a way that is more direct than simply having beliefs that are not translated into action.
I’m not big on organized religion – never been a big church-goer. When having conversations with those who are regular church-goers, it’s often hard to establish credibility with someone who equates church attendance with being a person of faith.
I admit to finding it difficult to understand why so many cannot see the humanity in those who are different, who do not take to heart God’s love for all of His children, and who seem to want to connect any giving or caring to conformity with a set of religious beliefs.
I work in an urban area, and even though it is relatively upscale, we have plenty of homeless who beg for money. Some are quiet – just sitting with a sign or a paper cup. Some are more active, approaching people on the street. I understand that some of these folks frighten people – they are afraid of them. I may not always have money to give, but I always respond, even if I have to say, “I’m sorry – I do not have any cash with me.” It is bad enough to be reduced to living on the street, to not know where your next meal is coming from, or where you will sleep tonight, whether you can take a shower, but to be ignored and treated as being invisible seems to me to be a cruelty that does not have to be inflicted. If I do nothing else, I can acknowledge the humanity of one of God’s children.
It is an exercise in futility to argue theology or the Bible with someone who will not waver in his or her beliefs. I find myself just offering how I deal with things, how I see things, and try not to convey that I think my way is the right way for anyone but me.
Lots to think about here, Peterr – thanks again for raising an important issue.
Wow! Fabulous post and topic.
My boss is a right wing fundamentalist. He was “born again” about 3-4 years ago and gets his religious and political views from Christian radio. We can’t really “discuss” religion or politics without him first getting all fired up and on his high horse and spewing some hate mongering about evil abortionists and the apocolypse that is Howard Dean yada yada yada. His new thing is to point out how hypocritical the Dems are about the war: they were for it till they were against it.
When I can get a work in edgewise, I ask him if he can give me an example of a particular policy the satanic Democrats will unleash. Well, aside from abortion and gays (he has a gay sister and absolutely insists it’s a choice she made to be that way)he has no answer. It’s then that I point to all the wonderful policies that he and his Title 9-enjoying daughter utilize that are a direct result of Democratic policies. He just gets flustered and goes back to gays and abortion.
Sigh.
CW at 180-to further emphasize your point, let’s pretend that the Theocons win, and religion is once again taught in schools. If I am Catholic, why do I want my children taught Protestant dogma? We know how many “Christians” feel about the Catholics, or the Baptists, or the Mormons, or fill in the blank.
IMHO much of the hatred and intolerance comes from insecurity in one’s beliefs, and the FEAR (see 95) that those beliefs could be wrong.
Look at the DaVinci Code. Again, pretending that the fictional story is true, and Jesus was married and had children, how does that change who I believe He was and what he did? Christ was both divine and human, and throughout history his depiction has swung from totally divine to totally human and back again. But it still doesn’t change who He was.
CW # 180: “I am a Baptist minister’s wife, and I truly am afraid for what our nation is becoming.”
I am a Catholic, myself. My mom and her sister were close all their lives, but now they don’t talk. My mom is (like myself) against the war, and the Cheney administration. And this is heresy to my aunt.
It is almost the same with the wife of friend of mine (almost, because we now have an unwritten rule…don’t talk about politics).
Democrats = evil, bush and the republicans = god. And there is no room for argument, say e.g. “look, there were no WMD”. Or “Jesus doesn’t seem to be the kind of dude who would enjoy capital punishment and bombing foreigners”.
I don’t see the way out either. These people are taking us down the same road the Nazis did.
The deal is that thecons want to insert religion… their brand of Christianity…into America’s public square in a mighty way. As others above have pointed out this is about as unamerican as can be as it is nowhere that religion be part of the government and the “public square”.
What they are agitating for is nothing less than a coup d’etat of turning a secular democracy into a theocracy.
This is not “debatable”. No one (except me hahahaha) is advocating the abolition of religion… and even I am happy if people keep their beliefs to themselves so it has no impact on the rest of the people.
But freedom of expression which IS something I can get behind also collides with religion when you see things like “enforced” Islamic type dress where women are completely covered in public. Personally I find this very “unnerving” and hope that it is not something which is allowed in this country. European countries are struggling with the individual’s rights to “practice” religion “in public”.
We haven’t quite gotten there yet, but things like prayer in school, and so on are getting us there. And the religious right is pushing very hard to wear their faith in everything they do… and this, for them means “the public square”.
We need to be vigilent because these fanatics are … well fanatics.
Wow, there are a lot of Atheists here, aren’t there? Makes me think that perhaps we’re not such an ineffective minority!
Peace,
Tim
DefJef:
“Can’t we make religion go away? Please???”
Short answer? No.
Long answer? Humans are religious because we seek meaning and depth. We have questions, and we seek ultimate answers. Religions form around those insights that provide orientation.
Zeppo:
“Several things. One is that specific religious beliefs seem, to me, to be very egotistical. They put mankind at the center of literally EVERYTHING. Yet, if you take a look at what we know of the universe now, even the galaxy we live is in just a speck in the vastness, and it takes light, traveling at 186,000 miles per second, over 100,000 years to get from one side of that one speck, of which there are billions, to the other. So, why is mankind so central to God and all his creations? Couldn’t He have come up with something little simpler?”
Short answer? He/She is God. You are not. Why would you want it simpler? Isn’t it fun as it is?
Long answer? What makes you think HUMANITY is the center of everything? Properly experienced and understood, religion is about NOT being the center of everything. Consider this way of looking at it: in the vastness of an existence like this, the core of my tradition teaches that you are loved, desired, and you BELONG. You are a voice in a chorus, to be sure, but you belong in the chorus.
Peterr:
I appreciate and respect your attempt to discuss this issue, and I hope, in all humility, that I have added, rather than distracted, to the discussion.
DefJef, zeppo, others who dislike religion: I offer the suggestion that you look at the book Why Religion Matters by Huston Smith, possibly one of the finest scholars of religion, ever. Religion is not going away. If you cannot learn to work with the symbols and the language, you will be at a severe disadvantage in dealing with TheoCons. If you offer a hostile response to religious persons, you can also alienate potential allies, such as the activists and organizers of the emergant church movement.
If I come off as hostile, it is not my desire, or my intention. This is an argument I find myself involved in, repeatedly, in liberal circles. I am a Christian, and not about my faith. While many feel that the enlightment and humanism are really the way to go, and claim religions have led to wars and oppression, I would offer the example of the Soviet Union as one possible outcome of a purely humanistic approach. Evil does not reside in any single philosophical or religious school.
Peterr, thanks for the GREAT post.
I think Stephen Sondiem said it best. “It’s intolerable being tolerated.” -From ‘A Little Night Music’.
Mike 5:26 pm -
Snip
I’m one with Locke again On Toleration and also with John Milton, (Areopagitica) in taking it as an act of faith that the human mind is wired to be receptive to truth%u2026in fact, perhaps so wired, that in the fact of truth well reasoned is incapable of deliberately choosing error. Torture doesn’t work, bullying just creates sycophants and liars, so what bother?
Well I agree with three words…..torture doesn’t work….. enough to justify it.
The Human mind is wired to be receptive to truth.
Survival and sexual needs based truth, perhaps. Truth is not always what we believe it is. I don’t want to parse truth endlessly here. I want to allow for endless parsing of nearly everything, especially spiritual. Theocons will not. Those who find divine guidance to be all, will end all, if left unabated. I am taking of a Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, Coulter, Rovian, Robertson types here. These nimrods will not acquiesce without a fight. I love a good conversation and enjoy thoroughly pulling real beliefs out of people and challenging them on it gently. I love that as much as humor and flirtation. This section of your comment finds my line in the sand. Conflicting yes. Would I like another magic tool in the box? Yes. So would Peterr as he asked in summary. I haven’t read one soft spoken method for bringing a theocons to a progressive jesus. These Theocons are winning because we won’t fight. We, especially our leaders wont fight in their face, eye to eye for truth.
snip from Peterr
challenge of engaging the Bully TheoCons, and not simply writing them off
snip
Progressives are doing it everyday at the expense of being the write off in the name of civility.
Firedrew @190: I am not exactly hostile to religion. I try to reconcile all the issues and problems I see with many religions, and I cannot.
As for your assertion that God is God and I am not… Well, yeah. I guess. Your answer seems to be a little of “God works in mysterious ways and you aren’t supposed to understand them. So don’t ask.”
I have always detested that answer. I got it a lot when I was a kid and asked impertinant questions. That seems to me ridiculous. If God made us, he made us inquisitive, curious creatures who ASK QUESTIONS. Why is it that we can ask questions about everything under the sun, but when it comes to God, everything is suddenly unknowable? I have even seen it argued that God made the world (including all those embarrassing fossils) such that it LOOKS like God doesn’t exist. It’s really just a test of your faith.
I’m sorry, but that in my estimation is a cop out. A self-fulfilling prophecy. You could assert any religion is true with those means. I still don’t see why people have to try to explain the universe with anything other than direct observation and deduction, experimentation and testing.
And yes, I think we all realize that evil can come in many forms, cloaked in religious symbols and meanings, or just plain nasty old dictators who like to torture, imprison and kill their subjects. To me, that’s just part of man’s sometimes very ugly nature coming through. Religion didn’t cause that. It just happens to be the vehicle every once in a while.
Okay so I’m not religious. I think I was about 12 when I told my parents that they were hipocrits for saying they were Christians when they never went to church….dad was always at the bar too late on Sat. nites to get up that early.
Anyway, this is a topic which I’m particularly interested in. Recently a colleague of mine who is married to a Methodist minister surprised me with a comment. I had always thought of her as relatively liberal…..she teaches literature at a community college and aren’t liberal arts majors all radical liberals? Anyway, she told me she didn’t really believe in the doctrine of a separation of church and state.
And that’s where we progressives differ the most with the theocons. They are determined to establish an American Theocracy. That’s not something I’m willing to compromise about and it certainly makes “respecting” their religious beliefs a little difficult.
The basic message of Christianity, one of peace and love, is a beautiful one. And although the average theocon may agree in principal with this message, I’m sorry to say I don’t think most of them practice it.
Zeppo !! reminds me of a saying…
Life (or god) is ten percent what you make it and ninety percent how you take it… ;)
Zeppo @193:
“As for your assertion that God is God and I am not%u2026 Well, yeah. I guess. Your answer seems to be a little of “God works in mysterious ways and you aren’t supposed to understand them. So don’t ask.” “
Oh, no, by all means, ask. Ask questions. Scream them to heaven. I said it was the short answer…
You asked why, if God made the universe, he could not have made it “simpler.” My answer was flippant, but it is not meant to block questions.
Sorry. And God did not plant those fossils. They are the remains of extinct plants and animals. Where did you get such a silly idea :-)
“I know a thing or two about religion…as well as how one communicates across the various borders that divide one group of people from another” …
Me too, and that graphic isn’t exactly a bridge. The context just feels off, imho, with the sincerity of the post.
Firedrew @ 196: Thanks. Flippancy sometimes does not come through in electronic form. I have gotten myself into trouble many times by saying something that I thought was screamingly funny or ironic, and people thought I was serious and got rather upset….
Someone needs to invent a flippant font. :)
I really do have a lot of questions about religion and our belief system that I truly would like to discuss with someone. I just never have found out how to have such a discussion without offending people.
I’m very late to this thread and, truth be told, I haven’t read all the comments so it’s possible someone above may have remarked on what I will say here.
I cannot identify a single meaningful human value that requires a religious context within which to be accorded legitimacy. It’s been my experience that it is the values a religion embraces that empower it, not that the values themselves have importance because they issue from a pulpit or a scriptural text. And on this point I think it’s important to recognize that those who trumpet their piety the loudest and most aggressively always seem to get the “cause and effect” relationship between values and religion exactly backwards, causing much confusion, and often great tragedy as a result.
Also, as to the relationship between “church and state”, it seems to me that there is an “oil and water” aspect involved that we tend to overlook, at least where representative, secular-based constitutionally defined democratic government is defined. Religion is, by nature, a belief-based authoritarian structure that generally requires one to take certain things as truth on faith, and to accept the arbitrary authority of clerics, often self-appointed or appointed by fellow clerics but usually not appointed by entire congregations. Democratic government, on the other hand, derives it’s authority, at least in principle, from the will of the people, the voters.
I’ve never been in a Christian church, for instance, where we’ve had the opportunity to vote to modify or otherwise refine the ten commandments, for instance, or where we’ve been able to either add to or subtract from scripture or otherwise to change “God’s Law”. Yet in our democracy, I’ve been able to vote to effect many significant changes in the law. And so, for me, whenever religious authority and secular democratic authority attempt to establish co-rule a diaster follows because each form is required to yield the essence of it’s own authority in order to make room for the other; God’s law must yield it’s authority to man’s participatory law if democracy is to function, and man’s laws must yield to God’s law if religious authority is to be maintained.
A difficult conundrum, to be sure, but then again that’s why we have churches on the one hand and statehouses and other government houses on the other. And as long as religion remains something that we can choose to partake of or not voluntarily, rather than having those arbitrary beliefs imposed upon us along with penalties for disobedience, the spiritual world will carry on just fine and fewer of us wil feel the need to transgress upon the right of each other to embrace whatever values we choose as ong as those values aren’t impinging upon others.
I have to say, I’ve had number of conversations with Theo-cons and have been able to find solid, mutual ground. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school from first grade through high school. Not because we were an especially religious family, but because the education was better. I had religon classes daily and attended church regularly. I am no longer a practicing catholic, but I certainly understand the Christian perspective. I now consider myself ’spiritual’, believe in God, and have what I believe to be, the rare gift of faith. Whether you ‘believe’ or not, the ethical, moral, and common sense ideals espoused by the most common tenets of the major and minor religions, most people would agree that they are beliefs to which they can ascribe. This ‘common sense’ is where we can find common ground. Ultimately, we don’t have to agree to accept another’s point of view. We can agree on the basic mores of a common good. We can gently point out the inconsistencies in someone’s perspective and if no immediate shift happens in that person, then we have introduced an idea which may infiltrate at a later time. Most importantly, I think is that the person very well may no longer see us as the ‘enemy’ because we’ve shown we share some common ground. I have had some amazing results come from conversations such as the ones I’ve described. I personally take credit for ‘converting’ at least 25 people to Vegetarianism (totally different topic, I know). Polarization creates only a “this or that” perspective that forces people into an unreasonable choice that is exactly representative of the Bush “you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” mentality. This kind of ‘lifeboat’ scenario is neither realistic nor functional. Pick your battles selectively, don’t waste your energy foolishly and trust that because your intention is good, good WILL come from from your efforts.
Thought I’d add my voice. I found myself at the local Quaker meeting after the “war” started. I think this is a movement a lot of FDLers would be comfortable with. Of course, youall know that an anti-war meeting at a Quaker meeting house was one of the targets for observation by the gubmint. I really like the way this group blends religion and politics. Lots of peace activists, very informed and aware group of people, lots of people volunteered in Katrina-hit areas. There is a great branch called the Friends Committee on National Legislation, check ‘em out.
I have a great book called Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalists; I recommend it if you want to get your persuasiveness refined.
I am of the opinion that America needs to hear from the religious left. One idea I’ve had is picketing alongside the anti-abortion protesters with a sign that says “75,000 children are waiting for adoption in America,” or maybe “Have you hugged a foster child today?”
Robert Frost would only venture ‘think,’ not ‘know.’
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though.
He will not see me stopping here
to watch his woods fill up with snow.
Eureka Springs, AR says
June 23rd, 2006 at 7:56 pm
The Human mind is wired to be receptive to truth. Survival and sexual needs based truth, perhaps. Truth is not always what we believe it is. I don’t want to parse truth endlessly here.
and
I love a good conversation and enjoy thoroughly pulling real beliefs out of people and challenging them on it gently. I love that as much as humor and flirtation. This section of your comment finds my line in the sand.
I’m not sure we’re in disagreement here. Perhaps a better formulation of what I meant would be this: I take belief in the idea of reason as matter of faith…meaning I can’t prove a capacity for discernment, but if I don’t believe it is possible that, confronted with two ideas, the mind is capable of choosing the truer, (or more valid, or more reasonable) and that the honest mind must do so, even if that truth is uncomfortable or as Al Gore says “inconvenient,” then I really must despair. Does this mean certainty? Of course not. Does it mean abandoning one idea for another? Of course, and perhaps frequently. If I lose an argument because I lack the rhetoric to empower the idea I hold, then I lose, and so does the person with whom I’m in conversation. And it’s my fault, because I didn’t respect my ideas enough to dress them in the best language at my command. If, on the other hand, I lose an argument (change my mind) despite the quality of my rhetoric, I actually win, because I exchange the inferior idea I previously had for a better one. So I have to do two things simultaneously…speak as eloquently as I can, and listen as intensely as I can. When that happens I gain in understanding.
I loved John Milton’s Areopagitica when I was in college (though I hated reading it) because it promoted freedom to publish whatever one wanted, and freedom to read whatever one wanted in full confidence that truth was stronger than error and needed no censor to protect it. It is interesting to me that the strongest defense of freedom of the press ever was produced by the pen of the great Puritan poet. Milton didn’t speak gently, either. Were he alive today, he’d attack Bush and his ilk, and Falwell and his ilk hammer and tongs with his public rhetoric (on his blog…certainly he’d be a blogger) but I suspect in personal conversation he’d use a different set of tools to promote his point of view. That’s all I really have been trying to say.
Outstanding thread everyone
Here are some thoughts (by some more articulate than I) about faith & religion
“The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.” – James Carter
“Once a photograph of Earth, taken from outside, is available, once the sheer isolation of the Earth becomes plain, a new idea as powerful as any in history will be let loose” – Fred Hoyle (1948)
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” – Galileo Galilei
“There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph. All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth.” – Richard Avedon
“There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.” – Ansel Adams
“We are all individual molecules of a great social gas.” – Huxley
“We are accustomed to the new land yet attached to the old country” – anon
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” – Gandalf the Grey
“We have enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.” – Jonathan Swift
“I believe there is a force to the universe, I just don’t commit to any particular man behind the curtain” – Oliver Willis
“Self-mastery is the key to the portals of the universe” – Joseph W. Kittinger
The mind is its own place,
and in itself can make a heaven of hell,
and a hell of heaven. – John Milton
“…Churches have given us great treasures. Whether that pays for the harm they have done is another matter.” – Daniel C. Dennett
“As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.” – Voltaire
“If you don’t behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you behave.” – Bishop Fulton John Sheen
“…organized religion is for people who are afraid of hell. Spirituality is for people who’ve already been to hell.” – Oliver Stone
Thanks Peterr for your post, I know you as a commenter here at FDL and I have great respect for the ideas that you contribute to the community.
You are a brave man, I respect you for addressing this issue.
I have had such a very complicated religious history. I don’t know how I would classify myself, maybe agnostic, maybe atheist, but definitely spiritual. But not religious – RELIGION – STAY AWAY FROM ME. I respect religious people, but please respect my scepticism in return.
My problem with religion is the dogma. I have never, even from an early age – 5 or 6 years old (got into a lot of trouble with my nuns), excepting a short time in my teens (that’s a very long story), been able to understand how anyone on this planet of ours, can believe that their way was the one way.
How can someone in Cleveland think that their way is the chosen way and that someone in Tibet, whose tradition spans the centuries and is rich and deep and meaningful be delusional. It is so sad. Religion gives people the right to believe that they are better than others and empowers them to kill in the name of GOD. (religion defies reason – but we have the right to believe what we choose).
It’s pretty simple. It’s about tolerance and respect. As soon as someone closes their mind to another’s beliefs, and thinks theirs is the only way, we have dogma – fundamentalism, a dead end.
So yes, I am open, I am open to the idea that life continues after death, I do in fact believe that we will continue on this earth, in this universe as compost or carbon and become another thing and become the stars collectively continuing eternally. I’m cool with that.
Are you?
Just finished reading “American Gospel” and what a reminder that it has been a continuous struggle….struggle….struggle with regards to religion and politics. But, as has been proven time and time again, we must continue the struggle and hope that as in the past, we win again.
Please, no more Fitz noise, ok? The guy basically let himself get worked by a coalition of liars, and ended up letting a traitor and perjurer get off scott free.
Screw Fitz.
Susan @ 205
I have to say that I am humbled and amazed at the conversation that emerged here on this thread, hours after threads usually end and move on to other subjects.
You have my respect, as does everyone else who posted here today. Given the pain that many have felt around religion, the church, etc., it is no exaggeration to say that any conversation around religion is an act of courage.
I, too, am nervous around absolutism. Speaking for myself, my faith calls me to question and struggle more than it calls me to proclaim answers. So to answer your question, I’m cool with your openness.
Where I’d differ with you is in your formulation “Religion gives people the right to believe that they are better than others and empowers them to kill in the name of GOD.” Replace “religion” with “idolatry” or give it a qualifier like “mindless religion” and I’m with you all the way. Religion in general is a neutral concept; a paranoid TheoCon version of it is frightening.
That’s why I call for conversation filled with respect – hopefully mutual respect. My hope is that minds would not be closed, but rather opened to new understandings and new ways of looking at the world — and each other.
“Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the
privilege to do so too” – Voltaire from “Essay on Tolerance”
I always add to the threads so late…
I think its important to remember that the Establishment Clause creates separation between church and state. When we let the theo-cons frame the argument around religion we are side-tracked and distracted. Redirect the argument. This post has people expressing opinions, but I see what appears to be ‘picking sides’. United we stand, divided we fall. If we are always on the defensive and squabbling among ourselves how will we change things? This has been the repugnicans plan all along. If we disagree so much and so often with eachother our energies are disappated and they win. Clearly we all have feelings on this topic, strong feelings, but we must remeber that in spite of the constant battles introduced by the theo-cons and the fakey-christy-cons THE CONSTUTION IS ON OUR SIDE. Christy if you have any con-law arguments you can add to my comments, they would be appriecated.
Peace to All.
How To Talk To A Theocon 101:
1) Listen. (Note: Listening is an artform. Listening indicates an open mind, a receptiveness to new ideas. And if you’ve noticed, Theocons, being righteous know-it-alls, are long on talking, and short on listening, which are characteristics common to all righteous know-it-alls, BTW.)
2) Point out the one “truth” that appears to be common to all monotheistic religious members by asking: “Is God (or Allah, or whatever) omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and holy?” Invariably the answer will be “Yes.” That’s when I exclaim that I believe the exact same thing, which usually throws the fundamentalist off-stride, especially if they were trying to “talk” me into converting to their “way.” (Note: I would never ask this question of an atheist. I respect their Constitutional right not to believe. But I have found that asking this question of a Vanilla Fundie (or whatever flavor) is a good way to break the ice. I have affirmed what is apparently a core principle of their’s, implying a certain commonality in beliefs between us. Of course, the “devil” is in the details that follow.)
3) Logically, since God (or Allah, or whatever) is omnipotent, OMNIPRESENT, omniscient and HOLY then there can be no gaps in God, nor any holes in all-encompassing holiness…no matter what our judgments to the contrary may be. (Note: this usually throws fundies for a loop. Having affirmed to me, as I have to them, that God is omnipresent and holy, they now have to defend their belief that there are gaps in God and gaping holes in all-encompassing holiness, thus denying their core belief in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and holy God. Brain meltdown. Logic overload. Both cannot be true. One must be false. I believe wholeheartedly in the former (being a Christian liberal spiritualist) while fundies believe in the latter. And the funny thing is atheists believe the same thing fundies believe, but with the only differnce being in degree. Atheists believe God is absent because God never existed, while fundies believe the all-encompassing holiness of God is absent and has been replaced by sin, guilt and hell…or abortion clinics, porn shops and liguor stores.)
4) Which brings me to Jesus and the account of his life in the New Testament. Here are some of my favorite quotes that I mention to a fundie when I can get a word in edgewise.
a) “God is a Spirit, and to worship God, one must worship God in Spirit and in Truth” (Note: nothing is said about setting up a religious dictatorship. In fact, when combined with “render unto Caesar what is Caesars, and render unto God what is Gods,” it is obvious that Jesus was a proponent of keeping religion out of politics, and vice versa).
b) “What profits a man, though he gain the whole world, yet loses his soul?” (Note: it sounds to me like Jesus perfectly described someone with an overbearing, bullying, monopolistic mentality. Someone who rams their “way,” whether religious or secular, down the throats of all others. Someone out to dominate any society they are born into…or invade. Religious Vanilla Fundies. Atheistic Communists. Islamicists. It doesn’t matter. According to Jesus, all humans with this mentality end up losing their souls.)
c) This is not a quote, but something someone inserted into the New Testament, “Jesus is the ONE and ONLY begotten son of God.” (Note: when combined with the prayer Jesus gave us that begins “Our Father, who art in heaven,…,” an immediate discordance arises. Because, you see, Jesus’ prayer is an affirmation, by us, of who Our Father is, while someone later claimed that “Jesus is the ONE and ONLY begotten son of Our Father.” Strange. Oh, I see. There can be only one logical explanation. Anyone who is not Jesus, therefore, must be a daughter of God, Our Father, since he is the ONE and ONLY begotten son. Hmmmm, maybe this is from where all gender confusion comes? But it must be as God intended because the Bible is inerrant. Right? We’re all females, with Jesus being the only male progeny of God, according to the Bible. Yep, that’s the ticket. Hello, all my sisters. Hey, even fundies laugh at this one.).
Anyway, I am really grateful that I was born into our democracy. By being exposed to so many new ideas, especially of a spiritual nature, I have learned a lot in this lifetime. And I have learned many things that I would have never learned in a closed, soul-poisoning, heavily-censored, monopolistic dictatorship.
Which makes what is happening to our liberal, soul-enthusing, generally-secular democracy that much more shocking. Someone is out to destroy our democracy, to seize control of the public marketplace, to force everyone to bow down to their God-forsaking, soul-eating, fear-exploiting ideology. Jesus Christ, I’m certain, would weep at what some misguided ones are attempting to do to America in his name.
Oh, BTW, the Rapture is a bunch of crap, sir,…especially if one believes in the Omnipresence of God, or at least has an inkling of what Spirit is and where Spirit is. (Note: why would that which is everywhere need to “come back”? That which is everywhere didn’t go anywhere…even though it is invisible to the naked eye. This, I believe, is what Jesus, our brother, came to teach us and to demonstrate to us. Unfortunately, Catholic monopolists got ahold of his message and twisted it to suit their political/power-hungry ends. Oh, BTW, I was raised Catholic, but something didn’t feel right so I went searching. Once again, I thank God daily for our pluralistic, liberal democracy…at least what’s left of it.).
Thank you for the excellent post. This issue requires a lot of attention. Generally, I think you cannot argue anyone into changing their minds about beliefs, as opposed to facts. What you might be able to do is to disarm the emotion running against you by treating people with the respect they deserve. The goal is to try to neutralize religious views as the controlling factor in voting.
To this end, I try to establish that my value structures are not different from theirs, even if my reasons for holding the values are different. If we share values then we have a place from which to discuss the precise impact of specific policies. I try to focus on economic issues, and the results of the policies of the Republicans on me and ask how it is working out for them, and what they think the future holds for them and for the country. I have had some minimal success, but if we loosen one tiny tentacle and then another, eventually we win.
An interesting post with very interesting follow-up in the comments section.
One comment in particular made me jump in my seat. It’s that of Pachacutec who wrote: It’s funny: even though I’m no longer Catholic or religious in any way I understand the word to be used, my Catholic upbringing is right through all my political values and writing. I see it popping up in my writing all over, in whatever moral sense I bring to my posts, my arguments, my observations.
I have often heard people bring that up and as a former catholic myself, I can understand where it comes from. Still I have found such discourse to be at the heart of what must be one of the saddest and most desolate plight that ever befell Humanity! It is a tragedy in that such a belief in the formative powers of religion has robbed humans of their inherent morality and confined them instead as debtors of so-called “religious” mores. In fact, it is the other way around. Long before there was the catholic church, humans had “discovered” the value of morality and the advantages of the “Good”! Without such consciousness of the importance of the “Good”, Man would have never survived!
How does that observation help in this thread? I have no idea but I could not let Pachacutec’s comment go unchallenged as I feel strongly about this issue. I think that it is at the crux of the matter and that there is still a lot of work to be done here. There is a fundamental difference between Pachacutec’s stance and my own (that is on this progressive side) whereas it looks like ‘the other side’ is cohesive. Indeed, before a meaningful dialogue can be engaged with the Theocons, isn’t it important to define ourselves first?
Add me to the folks who are not impressed. Religion has always been tied to political and social warfare. How many people have been killed in the name of an imaginal entity?
We have a president who gets messages, commands, and suggestions from an imaginary being. It amazes me that people accept this craziness. Another thing I’ve noted is that when people get “revelations” the voices they hear sound suspiciously like their own.
We live in a country full of childish, superstitios people who cause suffering every day and care only about themselves. They can lie, steal etc. all week. The on Sunday they show how moral they are by showing up at church and sitting in the front row. They get their Jesus-get-me-out-of-jail ticket punched knowing that they can continue being selfish and arrogant.
Forget about these people. They are breeding red cows to prepare for the rapture. Just stop a minute and read that sentence again.
Liberals don’t have to learn how to talk to people who believe that any day now they will be raptured away. These people are dangerous lunatics.
Peterr,
You are right. It was harsh for me to say that “Religion gives people the right to believe that they are better than others and empowers them to kill in the name of GOD.”
But many religions do provide the framework and absolutism that permits that mindset.
I admire your faith and your willingness to not know.
I doubt anyone will see this(FDL moves so fast,and I’m slow,lol)but my parents and siblings disowned me over the religion/politics thing.It’s kind of been a gradual process,culminating last year,the last time I heard from anyone.They won’t take my calls,won’t call me(even to check on their only grandkids),and have pretty much written me off as evil.Because I own books about pagan religions and collect tarot cards(the artwork on some decks is amazing).My mom literally thinks Satan will come flying out of a tarot deck to get her if she comes into my house.Seriously.I wish that was a joke.The only way she’d set foot in my house(and this was HER idea mind you)is if I take anything remotely”pagan”out of my house and lock it in the trunk of my car for the duration of her visit.I wish that was a joke too,but she’s serious.I’m 46 yrs old for pity’s sake.
I don’t understand anyone who can let religion destroy a family.
I worked really hard for many years to reconcile a crappy,abusive childhood with my parents.I forgave them,and did most of the work of trying to repair the relationships.For my kids mostly.I grew up with both sets of grandparents,I wanted my kids to have the benefit of that.Didn’t work out,and it breaks my heart.
My parents are neoconservative evangelical right wing christians,and I guess you just can’t talk to people that far removed from Christ’s teachings.I can only compromise myself so much,get kicked in the teeth for it,and then lather,rinse and repeat so many times before it’s enough already.
Jane’s Mom passing reminded me that my parents aren’t young anymore,and in the next few years they will pass on and this rift won’t be resolved before then.I’m not sure how to deal with that.
AOB –
I doubt anyone will see this . . .
Oh, ye of little faith. ;) I just had to circle back, to see what folks were doing down south of EPU territory. And there you were.
I know far too many folks like your parents, and it isn’t easy to deal with. My heart goes out to you for what you’ve tried to do, both with them and with your kids.
As for the pain you are anticipating in your last paragraph, let me just remind you that it hasn’t happened yet, so you don’t have to borrow that trouble today. For now, send the birthday cards with your kids to their grandparents and their aunts and uncles. Put some pictures in, showing them growing and laughing and playing. Who knows: it may melt some of their anger and sooth some of their fears. Hard is the heart of a grandparent that doesn’t get a smile from a picture of their grandkids.
One other thing about fundy families. Often, there’s a designated “black sheep” (religiously speaking), who serves as a family lightning rod to take all the hits on all the religious questioning. Others may share some of the same questions, but don’t want to voice them for fear of attracting the lightning. A funny thing can happen, when the “black sheep” leaves the scene. The questions don’t leave, and someone else slowly takes on that role.
Watch your siblings, and see what happens. You may not be as cut off as you think.
Peace, and keep up the good work you’ve already been doing with your kids and yourself.
An Angry Old Broad–
Me too. Maybe I can say this, now that the thread is getting thin. (I caught this discussion at 7 this morning–I tend to read these things half a day late…)
I’m the designated black sheep in my family. Raised fundy–my parents helped found a church in California that functioned as a reaction to Southern Baptists and Presbyterians, who were ‘too liberal.’
My whole world was defined by fundamental christianity. Every day, every thought, everything I read, and every friendship I had was constrained by it. It’s tough to think for yourself when your social and familial salvation depends on getting your ideas and emotions Right.
But I walked away. Married a unitarian, left the state, eventually left the family for a long while. Even went to grad school, a first for anybody in my family–and they figure I’ve lost my faith to leftwing intellectualism. Sigh.
My folks and my sister are still fundy; I’m not sure what I am in religious terms, but I so know even though I understand the language of fundamentalism all too well, I still have one hell of a time talking with my family. Even after letting go of the pain they caused me, I don’t know how to break into their thinking.
Like Old Broad, I see my folks reach their 80s and I wonder how I’ll deal with them as they die. I understand their fear, I do; I’ve been there. But the fear is bigger than any love I can offer.
Thanks, Peterr, for bringing this up. If not now, when? If not us, who?
AOB – I have a similar situation. Sometimes I have to walk away from it for a while. Other times I put myself in neutral. If I can find detachment I can deal with it.
I’m sorry I wasn’t able to participate while the main conversation was going on, but since comments are still trickling in, I’ll add my .02.
Peterr, thanks for starting this conversation – and thanks to all the FDLers who have kept it civil and respectful.
Some random thoughts: my own religious background is varied, as I was raised an atheist, became a fundamentalist as a young person, and then gradually developed a more progressive view of spirituality. So I am sympathetic to views on all sides of this debate.
I do think that religion will continue to exist so long as human beings continue to ask questions about the metaphysical and the spiritual. The things we value, that give life its meaning and joy, are spiritual in the broad sense of that word: love, friendship, loyalty, honesty, courage, humor. FDL, this community we all share and value, is in that sense a very spiritual place.
So I think spirituality is an intrinsic human quality, and something to be celebrated rather than feared. Religion, in the organized sense, is a bit trickier because it overlaps with tribalism – another human trait that serves useful purposes, but also taps into some of our darker impulses. Religion at its best is a tribal affiliation that lets us “spur one another on to love and good deeds,” reinforcing shared values that work for the common good; at its worst, it is a vehicle for the base manipulations of the power-hungry.
We choose to affiliate ourselves in all sorts of ways: sports, hobbies, sexual practices, food, music, politics, religion, blogs. And as zeppo points out @193, our potential for violence manifests itself in many of our “tribal” interactions. I’m not a historian, but it seems to me that many, if not most/all, of our religious wars have had religion as an excuse, rather than a reason. In other words, demagogues who have ulterior motives – usually having to do with land, money, and/or power – have manipulated religion to tap into those darker tribal impulses that still survive in our lizard brains. Which, to me, is more an indictment of the darker side of human nature than of religion per se, and has little or nothing to do with the idealism that seeks to promote and inspire the “better angels” of human nature and potential.
There have been a lot of great comments about how to (try to) talk to a TheoCon. Respect, listening, finding shared values. The challenge, especially for those who have no shared religious perspective to use as a point of connection, is to see past their religion without eliding it, to see their shared humanity despite the attitudes that are so troubling and even enraging. Not easy, but worth it if it lets them, in turn, see our humanity, because that will defuse their fear just a little bit.
And I do think fear is a key here. Someone a few threads back (john in sacramento?) posted a link to a discussion of FDR’s Four Freedoms. I’ve been thinking about them, and (if you’ll pardon my psychologizing for a moment) it seems to me they can be usefully connected to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear are lower-level, survival needs; if they are in question, then Freedom of Speech and Freedom of [from] Worship, which are higher-level needs, are going to go by the wayside.
And that is what we are seeing happen. Because of the manipulation of fear by the post- 9/11 demagogues of the Cheney administration, and because of the economic tsunami wrought by Bushco’s disastrous policies, large numbers of Americans are not experiencing those first two freedoms. And if the Maladministration comes demagoguing along and says that scary brown people with strange religious beliefs need to be subjugated, and everyone’s freedom of speech has to be limited or denied, in order to meet those first two needs – well, we’ve all seen the results.
Which is where we progressives come in. We can talk to people at the level of their felt needs, their need to be free from fear and want. We can offer them hope, the antidote to fear; we can offer them a path to greater prosperity. We can say, with John Edwards, that we can and will end poverty in the United States. And if we offer people hope, and a way out of fear and poverty, they will be much less likely to listen to the demagogues, and be less willing to sacrifice those second two freedoms.
None of us has to be spiritual or religious to have those conversations. We can, in fact, have conversations that may profoundly affect the viewpoints of a TheoCon without ever mentioning religion. For those who are comfortable speaking the language of faith, starting with the felt needs to be free from fear and want can be a way in to more explicit discussions that gently nudge TheoCons away from extremist viewpoints.
Sorry for writing such a tome, but this was such a good and important discussion, and because of my own background these are issues I’ve thought about a great deal. If you made it all the way through this, many thanks.
Zeppo @ 53, people like you who ponder the deep things while trying to keep up with the lawn… I just love. :-)
I find FDL to be that sort of site, the mix of striving toward tackling the big issues, while keeping the birds fed, and getting the little ones to nap, the mix of the great and the very small concerns. If we humans do that, I think that’s what makes us feel the Creator must do the same. I’m an agnostic, because I know I don’t know, but I still feel as if I love God, and I do thank God often, and pray each day. Because, what the hell. Why not?
Peterr, important topic, and remarkably thoughtful thread.
I have recently spent time with branches of extended family, and we have had conversations that broached topics that we have NEVER discussed before — ever.
Notable comment from family members, mostly evangelicals: “Not a lot of foot-washing happening in Washington, DC these days.” That’s a powerful, profound comment given their worldview and these are the very same people who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004.
I break them down into two subgroups:
1. Those for whom religion has been a deep source of strength through illness, bad economic conditions, and other difficulties beyond their personal control. For these members of my family, the Bible has been a “deep well from which to drink” for wisdom and guidance. Biblical language and stories offer them a deep source of strength, hope, and guidance about how to live their lives. These are among my favorite relatives, and they conduct their affairs wisely. These are the smart ones, who can organize any project, think through all the details, and tend to be viewed as leaders. They keep calendars, write lists, organize their garage tools, and function productively. These are also the relatives who vote for library and school bonds, even after their own kids are grown b/c they believe it’s their responsibility to contribute to community.
2. Then there is the second group. Overall, I’d describe them as less bright, less able to deal with ambiguity of any kind. They tend to be fairly disorganized, can’t seem to toss out the extra items in their houses, can’t tolerate ambiguity. These are the family members that I walk on eggshells with… I’ve thought about this a fair amount, and one thing that I’ve noted in this group is that they seem to have much more difficult creating plans, organizing tasks… they need external structures to help them function. And evangelical religion seems to fill that need for them. In a very rapidly shifting world, these folks are looking for certainty and their code word for ‘certainty’ = “Bible.” They seek out wingnut radio b/c they aren’t well able to prioritize, plan, organize, execute on their own. Lots of ADHD, a fair amount of substance abuse in this group, and writing a complex business letter is beyond their skills. I suspect that they are not able to form internal cognitive structures on their own, so they rely on outside sources (O’Reilly, Hannity) b/c they are constantly seeking to confirm and solidify a very precarious set of ideas. Their world has shifted radically in 40 years — and they don’t have the temperaments, the smarts, the social skills, the education to roll with the pace of change. This is the group that 40 years ago was pretty harmless, but who are now using evangelical religion as a framework that justifies their own purpose, meaning, and actions. They’re scary.
The first group is able to use religion in much the same way as plants use sunlight; it helps them grow, it provides nourishment. They’re always going to land on their feet and their faith helps them make those shifts and also provides needed refreshment. The second group uses religion like a cudgel, like a weapon. The second group is far more threatened by social and economic changes, and they are looking for ‘weapons’ against a world that they perceive as increasingly dangerous.
Yet even the second group is disgusted with Bush/Cheney, and deeply distrustful of politics today.
I hope that my observations underscore why I think your thread is so very important and needs more discussion in coming months.
Zeppo @ 198:
I would be happy to continue this dialog, over e-mail. Please feel free to contact me at andkar@sbcglobal.net.
It’s very late to be entering this discussion. I’ve e been away for a few days and meanwhile most FDLers have moved on to other threads. But even if the audience for this missive is only one or two people (Peter who I’m sure will check back from time to time to pick up on stragglers returning from their weekend and perhaps Christy who has several times put related subjects forward) I want to register some thoughts. As Peter rightly points out the right is going to put the question of religion forward and how progressives decide to treat that challenge is going to be important. This community (FDL) is a wonderful place to put our heads together on this. I appreciate both of you for bringing it up.
Peter writes: “One of the Religious Right’s biggest pitches to their crowd is that the Left isn’t religious – or at least not religious in the proper way. Insofar as progressives let that go unchallenged, it’s a big tactical win for the TheoCon leadership.”
I suppose that depends on the nature of the challenge we put forward but basically I disagree with what Peter seems to be suggesting here. The left isn’t religious. Many of us are, of course, but I’m not and I hope you don’t want to exclude me or relegate me to honorary status. Peter and many, maybe even most others on the left, on the other hand are religious and there’s not a reason in the world for you not to say so and to say how your religious values move you to your political positions. But that’s different from saying the left is religious. If we go down that road then we’ll have delivered a crucial tactical win to the TheoCon leadership. We will have allowed them to frame the debate on their terms. And we will have conceded the heart of the debate.
What if they said that the Left is a bunch of queers? Our response can not be ‘no we’re not; we’re as straight as you are %u2013 in fact you’re the real fags’. If their language is intolerance we don’t ‘have to do better at speaking a common language with them.’ We have to confront their intolerance. But so many of us fell comfortably into responding to Ann Coulter’s charge that we we’re godless by saying ‘ no we’re not; Ann Coulter is the Godless one’.
The question of what constitutes godlessness is a knotty one and not the ground upon which we ought to frame society’s political discussions. I was just reading the book of Joshua and it can certainly make a person wonder why anyone thinks the ‘God of the Bible’ has any problem at all with rampant bloody genocide. Pol Pot had nothing on ‘good ol’ Joshua at the battle of Jericho’. The theocratic, homophobic, uptight, authoritarian, hate addicted, fear fueled, war mongering TheoCons are not going to be caught without appropriate bible passages to back up their dreadful desires and plans. You can try to change their minds if you like but you’re never going to have them outbibled.
What we need to challenge about the theocratic right’s charges of Godlessness is the appropriateness not the truth or falsity of the charge. We need to defend the principal of secular government which is to say the principle that while any of us may be guided by our religious faith and while our religious leaders and institutions might act from religious principles public policy is guided by the will of the people acting within constitutional limits and not by the will of God as interpreted by God only knows who. If your religion forbids you to eat pork or have sex with someone of the same gender or use birth control then don’t do those things. But don’t try to force me to adhere to your religion. That keeps society peaceful and workable. Secular society is the antidote to religious conflict. The theocratic right is not afraid of religious conflict. The theocratic right is not afraid of religious war.
We can not put the left forward as Christian although many of it’s members are. Nor is the left religious although many of us are. Or irreligious. It is a group of people who are characterized by a general political direction and have come to that tendency by a wide variety of beliefs and circumstances. If the theocrats say that no one on the left is religious; correct them %u2013 that should be easy. But if they say that ‘the left’ isn’t religious we have to agree. That may not play well among theocrats but we’re stuck defending the importance of secular society. There are many things the right wing can say that can’t be answered by a simple sound bite or even by speaking their language. We are stuck with having a more complicated position. Think of it, if you like, as just another cross we have to bear.
Make no mistake. Secular society is under attack from the right. The bizarre and entirely bogus effort to ‘protect’ American society against those who were waging a ‘war on Christmas’ is just one piece of evidence that shows that that attack is well thought out, well organized and understood by the right as being strategically important. The American tradition of freedom of religion protected by a secular political sphere is an obstacle to American Autocracy. They are working to undermine it. Please let’s not fall into their traps.
Yeah, I’ve thought about this thread, and how amazed I am that it turned up. Especially b/c I’ve just spent time with people who say things like,
“Not much footwashing in Wa, DC these days.” (code for: those selfish assholes)
“We’re hearing a lot of false prophets” (code for: I’m finally clueing in that Bu$hCo are Very Bad News and I won’t believe them again)
So I think that some politicians, including Clinton, really ‘got’ that dialect. It’s part of Mark Twain, threaded through Lincoln’s speeches, and part of the American vernacular.
A different conversation in the week revealed a newly married couple whose private code is that of movies (lines from Casablanca, from Star Wars) that they use as their private code. They’re not church-goers, but they view American politics right now as Godfather Goes to DC.
The other thing that intrigues me is the sense that my evangelical contacts associate “Hollywood” (ie, porn, selfishness, self-indulgence) solely with the left. Never with the right. The thunderous Old Testament is very real to them, and one told me very soberly and seriously that the Bible predicts “the world will end in fire.” He fears nukes and global warming.
The secular couple associates “Hollywood” with a lot of good things, and they don’t just stick to Westerns. Their conversation is witty with allusions to movies.
The left shouldn’t accept being cast as the party of porn, profligacy, and selfishness. The right very successfully made the left APPEAR intolerant over the whole ‘destroying Christmas’ brouhaha, but I will admit that I really treasure my memories of being in a Christmas play at public school… and I think today’s kids need some kind of experience like that.
I think that as the corruption of the Republicans is exposed, people feel very lost and confused. They’re really seeing that they were fooled, but is there an alternative that makes sense to them, and that will accept their deeply religious views? If so, how does that synch with setting policy?
This is very, very complicated but also timely. I see quite a few people who have never, ever been so upset about government, the news, the media, the economy, their safety, honesty… these are people that I’ve known 40 years, who are deeply religious, and terribly frustrated about not seeing good solutions.
Their religious faith is at the center of their lives; politics a distant fifth. But I’ve never seen such worry, discontent, and genuine dismay about how selfish, mean, corrupt, incompetent, and sleazy US politics has become.
I think a little respectful conversation and good listening would go a long way these days. Because I’m just amazed at what I’ve seen the past week… it’s really a quiet, incredible frustration.
Robbie @ 224
How’d you guess I’d be back?
Thanks for your thoughtful voice, and your careful reading of the post. I don’t think we’re as far apart as you suggest, in part because of some inartful phrasing on my part.
I’m not trying to say to the TheoCons “O yes we are Christian on the left, too.” When I read through the hundreds of comments on the Sorrow thread, the sheer religiousness of the thoughts came across to me. Some, as I said, were explicitly religious in language, quoting a sacred text of some kind and offered “prayers” (more than a few explicitly non-Christian ones, BTW), while others offered thoughts that — to my mind — were religious in nature but not so obviously tied to an explicit or easily identified belief system.
I suppose that to bring our thoughts closer, we need a common definition of what it means to be religious. To me, it incudes (but is not limited to) asking questions and seeking enlightenment about the origins of the cosmos and our place within it; our relationships to others – family, neighbors, strangers, and enemies; our relationships to those in need – the poor, the ill, the outcast; our relationship to the past and to the future; our hopes and dreams and our fears and doubts. Bringing it from the general to the very specific: What does one say to someone who held her mother’s hand as her mother died? That’s a religious question in my book.
By that standard, I think I’m on relatively safe ground is saying that I believe the left IS religious. (Not everyone within it, just as not everyone on the right is religious – but close enough to being true for a general discussion like this, I hope.)
When the Religious Right says “the left is irreligious,” it’s code language. They’re saying that everyone on the left is self-centered and doesn’t give a damn about anything but their own pleasure. They’re saying the left hates anyone who prays. They’re saying the left doesn’t acknowledge anything greater than themselves. They’re saying the left is out to destroy anyone who believes in God.
When you move to your last point about how we structure society, there we are absolutely on the same side. See my comments @ 126 about the Constitution and religion. No one is safe in their beliefs if government gets involved.
I am mystified, quite frankly, at those TheoCon pastors who want prayer in school. Why are they trying to make schools into churches? Aren’t the churches capable of being churches without government sanction and support?
The whole “secular society” thing and the Consititutional issues deserve a whole thread (or ten!) of its own. Perhaps we’ll try that down the road . . .
Peterr:
Just about every human being on the face of the planet meets your definition of ‘religious’. Atheists, people who maintain that religion is the opiate of the masses, agnostics and cynics all wrestle with the question of what to say to someone who has just held her mother’s hand as her mother died and wonder about the origins of the cosmos and our place within it. Sure, by the standard of your definition you’re on pretty safe ground in saying that the left is religious. But your definition is not the common or dictionary definition and the TheoCons will most certainly not be impressed by it or moved to a sense of spiritual kinship or shared values because you point out that all people who maintain a sense of wonder are in some broad sense religious too.
It does little good to say we endorse separation of church and state if we then allow the theocrats to move the frame of civic discussion so that it comes to be about what the bible says or what God wants in matters of public policy. Engage them in personal dialogue in your role as a pastor or as another Christian or as a religious person if you like. But the more the public discussion becomes couched in your common ‘language’ (which is not a language but a context of shared religious belief) the more people who believe differently are excluded. To the extent that they can make that ‘language’ socially required they move this country towards theocracy. When you deny the left is non-religious you, in effect, apologize for or paper over or downplay the fact that our political decision-making is secular and we’re proud of it and determined to keep it that way.
The theocratic right is consciously trying to erode people’s sense of the importance of secular government. We have a responsibility to resist their effort to make civic discussions about what God wants and insist that public policy is properly determined by what society’s members want and need.
All the best,
Robbie