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	<title>Comments on: Off the Charts</title>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-160005</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-160005</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sona: the version of economics used in public discourse seems to be mostly either a very crude version of neo-classical economics or a version of supply side BS (with some exceptions - Austrian stuff does make its way in occasionally too and every once in a while a modern Keynesian like Krugman gets a place to say something.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We all have our triggers, mine are the people who took economics 101 who say “supply and demand explains everything”.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No, no it doesn’t.  Not even close.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And while I’m mostly an autodidact, my academic training such as it was, was in sociology - I am fascinated the boundary conditions of modern economics, and modern economic systems, that many economists don’t seem that concerned with.  Free markets are profoundly unnatural and uncommon, and in the long view of human history they are the least common way to allocate scarce resources, not the most common one.  The conditions under which they operate; the conditions that distort them; the conditions that destroy them, are as important, and arguably more so, than their internal mechanics.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sona: the version of economics used in public discourse seems to be mostly either a very crude version of neo-classical economics or a version of supply side BS (with some exceptions &#8211; Austrian stuff does make its way in occasionally too and every once in a while a modern Keynesian like Krugman gets a place to say something.)</p>
<p>We all have our triggers, mine are the people who took economics 101 who say “supply and demand explains everything”.</p>
<p>No, no it doesn’t.  Not even close.</p>
<p>And while I’m mostly an autodidact, my academic training such as it was, was in sociology &#8211; I am fascinated the boundary conditions of modern economics, and modern economic systems, that many economists don’t seem that concerned with.  Free markets are profoundly unnatural and uncommon, and in the long view of human history they are the least common way to allocate scarce resources, not the most common one.  The conditions under which they operate; the conditions that distort them; the conditions that destroy them, are as important, and arguably more so, than their internal mechanics.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-154583</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 00:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-154583</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Wasn’t there a change in the way unemployment figures were calculated sometime in dubya’s second year? I understood that its net effect was to understate unemployment considerably. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe I’m just imagining this…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn’t there a change in the way unemployment figures were calculated sometime in dubya’s second year? I understood that its net effect was to understate unemployment considerably. </p>
<p>Maybe I’m just imagining this…</p>
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		<title>By: Peter VE</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-154258</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter VE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-154258</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thank you for this post.  I have been privately grousing about just this subject for years.  It’s too much to hope that the “liberal” media would switch to one of the above methods for measuring unemployment.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this post.  I have been privately grousing about just this subject for years.  It’s too much to hope that the “liberal” media would switch to one of the above methods for measuring unemployment.</p>
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		<title>By: sona</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-154039</link>
		<dc:creator>sona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 20:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-154039</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ernest Olsen,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The data on unemployed who are actively seeking jobs come from people who register as such at Labour exchanges - not from surveys but from actual records.  If you have not registered as unemployed and seeking employment you will not figure in the data bank.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Resetting data definitions is an old political trick - Maggie Thatcher excelled at it.  I believe Bush Jnr’s redfinition included  limiting the period during which someone made the attempt to find a job to the immediate past four weeks - this does not take into account many long term unemployed unless they are registered as unenemployed or those who rely on turning up at the gates to scout for casual vacancies but which are uncorroborated by relevant authorities.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ernest Olsen,</p>
<p>The data on unemployed who are actively seeking jobs come from people who register as such at Labour exchanges &#8211; not from surveys but from actual records.  If you have not registered as unemployed and seeking employment you will not figure in the data bank.</p>
<p>Resetting data definitions is an old political trick &#8211; Maggie Thatcher excelled at it.  I believe Bush Jnr’s redfinition included  limiting the period during which someone made the attempt to find a job to the immediate past four weeks &#8211; this does not take into account many long term unemployed unless they are registered as unenemployed or those who rely on turning up at the gates to scout for casual vacancies but which are uncorroborated by relevant authorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Ernest Olsen</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153752</link>
		<dc:creator>Ernest Olsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153752</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Question.How do the statistians know weather I have been looking for a job or not?I got laid off over 4 years ago (a victim of downsizing (who had survived 40 layoffs over the previous 12 years) and I therefore no longer appear on the unemployment rolls.Occasionally, I jump back in and look again. I have never been contacted for any survey concerning my employability.How do they know that I have done that?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question.How do the statistians know weather I have been looking for a job or not?I got laid off over 4 years ago (a victim of downsizing (who had survived 40 layoffs over the previous 12 years) and I therefore no longer appear on the unemployment rolls.Occasionally, I jump back in and look again. I have never been contacted for any survey concerning my employability.How do they know that I have done that?</p>
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		<title>By: kin</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153720</link>
		<dc:creator>kin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153720</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;While you are looking into this, please address this issue as well.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Bush Administration has been very active in changing the way the statistics are compiled.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Please review the changes that the Bushies made in computing the unemployment rate and the GDP rate.  I don’t remember how they changed this, but I DO remember that they did change this.  I recall that at the time I thought: “Wow!  They’re covering up their mess!”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not only is it worse than they say, they have been active in trying to cover up how much worse it really is.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While you are looking into this, please address this issue as well.</p>
<p>The Bush Administration has been very active in changing the way the statistics are compiled.</p>
<p>Please review the changes that the Bushies made in computing the unemployment rate and the GDP rate.  I don’t remember how they changed this, but I DO remember that they did change this.  I recall that at the time I thought: “Wow!  They’re covering up their mess!”</p>
<p>Not only is it worse than they say, they have been active in trying to cover up how much worse it really is.</p>
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		<title>By: sona</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153653</link>
		<dc:creator>sona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153653</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;One point I should have made is that national unempoyment levels present a very unenlightening macro picture.  Employment levels vary across industry sectors.  Labour shortages are serious bottlenecks in many sectors and the patterns can vary across the country.  Most countries have relied on immigration to free up such bottlenecks but that is the cheaper immediate solution.  A more rational strategic approach is to look at the internal education system.  This often generates heated debates as to the whether education is an extrinsic or intrinsic process.  IMHO it is both.  Without its intrinsic value, we lose the rationale for public education and without its extrinsic value we lose the ability to make progress.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The issue of immigration has been too politicised lately with irrational ‘appeal to the base’ GOP idiocies.  Same goes for education, particularly school education, where we have a policy defunct strategy touted by a President who would not pass the required tests.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point I should have made is that national unempoyment levels present a very unenlightening macro picture.  Employment levels vary across industry sectors.  Labour shortages are serious bottlenecks in many sectors and the patterns can vary across the country.  Most countries have relied on immigration to free up such bottlenecks but that is the cheaper immediate solution.  A more rational strategic approach is to look at the internal education system.  This often generates heated debates as to the whether education is an extrinsic or intrinsic process.  IMHO it is both.  Without its intrinsic value, we lose the rationale for public education and without its extrinsic value we lose the ability to make progress.</p>
<p>The issue of immigration has been too politicised lately with irrational ‘appeal to the base’ GOP idiocies.  Same goes for education, particularly school education, where we have a policy defunct strategy touted by a President who would not pass the required tests.</p>
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		<title>By: sona</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153605</link>
		<dc:creator>sona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153605</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;re “what do all these economists actually do all day?” -@ 5 &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Most economists tend to use labour force participation rather than unemployment rate and then even that with caveats that take into account relevant country/region spcific information.  Serious economists that is.  Politicians like to use the unemployment rate because they can massage the definition of those willing to participate in the work force.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A more useful indicator is to look at the number of people entering the workforce each year, after graduating from full time education in high school, college or university relative to the number of net labour market vacancies in the economy.  That measure takes into account the number who retire although their jobs remain in the labour market, jobs which disappear and ‘new’ jobs that weren’t there the previous year.  It also accommodates self employed people in registered small businesses but the data still needs to be adjusted for jobs which are contracted out to self employed people rather than being offered in the labour market for a wage/salary.  No serious economist looks at unemployment as an issue without looking at the rate of incarceration and age, gender and race/social group composition of those incarcerated.  (S)he also remains aware that the crime rate depends on many factors, including labour market opportunities and prospects and silly wars against drugs.  Serious economists also look at other issues of relevance in this debate, including rates of growth in GDP, household indebtedness, cost of credit/money (ie interest), labour remuneration, consumer price index, etc.  Despite the attempts of John K Galbraith, JM Kynes, Amartya Sen and others, the public perception of economists and economics is driven by politically motivated games of financial players aka Greenspan and Bernanke.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Many in economics get lost in the mathematical intricacies and ignore that it is a social science totally dependent on interpretations of empirical evidence of human interactions concerning the production-distribution-consumption cycle.  The late Galbraith railed against university economics courses of over emphasisng the econometric mathematical model analyses at the expense of the socio-cultural dimension in which those models operate.  Human beings are  capable of reacting in unpredictable ways even as groups that can upset all the niceties set out by those models however stringently they define ceteris paribus caveats.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Serious economists also acknowledge costs of production with no imputed money values, eg  environmental degradation and its impact on health.  It is entirely a polical gambit to exclude such costs from the corporate balance sheets.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I didn’t want this to be an impassioned defence of economics or economists as such but merely to point out that economists are no more heinous than legal practitioners or scientists or other professional groups.  All operate in  political environments focused on establishing and entrenching power elites and are subject to misinformation and misconceptions generated to suit political tactics.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re “what do all these economists actually do all day?” -@ 5 </p>
<p>Most economists tend to use labour force participation rather than unemployment rate and then even that with caveats that take into account relevant country/region spcific information.  Serious economists that is.  Politicians like to use the unemployment rate because they can massage the definition of those willing to participate in the work force.</p>
<p>A more useful indicator is to look at the number of people entering the workforce each year, after graduating from full time education in high school, college or university relative to the number of net labour market vacancies in the economy.  That measure takes into account the number who retire although their jobs remain in the labour market, jobs which disappear and ‘new’ jobs that weren’t there the previous year.  It also accommodates self employed people in registered small businesses but the data still needs to be adjusted for jobs which are contracted out to self employed people rather than being offered in the labour market for a wage/salary.  No serious economist looks at unemployment as an issue without looking at the rate of incarceration and age, gender and race/social group composition of those incarcerated.  (S)he also remains aware that the crime rate depends on many factors, including labour market opportunities and prospects and silly wars against drugs.  Serious economists also look at other issues of relevance in this debate, including rates of growth in GDP, household indebtedness, cost of credit/money (ie interest), labour remuneration, consumer price index, etc.  Despite the attempts of John K Galbraith, JM Kynes, Amartya Sen and others, the public perception of economists and economics is driven by politically motivated games of financial players aka Greenspan and Bernanke.</p>
<p>Many in economics get lost in the mathematical intricacies and ignore that it is a social science totally dependent on interpretations of empirical evidence of human interactions concerning the production-distribution-consumption cycle.  The late Galbraith railed against university economics courses of over emphasisng the econometric mathematical model analyses at the expense of the socio-cultural dimension in which those models operate.  Human beings are  capable of reacting in unpredictable ways even as groups that can upset all the niceties set out by those models however stringently they define ceteris paribus caveats.</p>
<p>Serious economists also acknowledge costs of production with no imputed money values, eg  environmental degradation and its impact on health.  It is entirely a polical gambit to exclude such costs from the corporate balance sheets.</p>
<p>I didn’t want this to be an impassioned defence of economics or economists as such but merely to point out that economists are no more heinous than legal practitioners or scientists or other professional groups.  All operate in  political environments focused on establishing and entrenching power elites and are subject to misinformation and misconceptions generated to suit political tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Gilmore</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153600</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Gilmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153600</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Poverty eradication:&lt;br /&gt;
As long as we use money as a medium of exchange, we will always have poverty. It’s the basic economic principle of supply and demand.  There must be a constant demand for money; otherwise it’s valueless.  Those who most need money must continually labor for it simply to survive. The more people need it, the more willing they are to do abominable things to get it.  The wealthy and powerful control the money supply, restricting global trade for profits. Used for world domination and the spread of terrorism, those who control it wage war and pass trade agreements impoverishing the many to benefit the few.  We don’t have to individually barter goods.  Only by voluntarily using our skills and abilities to benefit humanity by structuring service, social and industrial unions to produce, develop and distribute the world’s&lt;br /&gt;
resources can we hope to abolish poverty, homelessness, global environmental destruction, waste, illiteracy, war, injustice, crime,&lt;br /&gt;
slavery, governmental and corporate corruption, overpopulation and ill health around the world.  Only by abolishing money can international&lt;br /&gt;
cooperation secure genuine world peace, aided by Esperanto, the international language.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poverty eradication:<br />
As long as we use money as a medium of exchange, we will always have poverty. It’s the basic economic principle of supply and demand.  There must be a constant demand for money; otherwise it’s valueless.  Those who most need money must continually labor for it simply to survive. The more people need it, the more willing they are to do abominable things to get it.  The wealthy and powerful control the money supply, restricting global trade for profits. Used for world domination and the spread of terrorism, those who control it wage war and pass trade agreements impoverishing the many to benefit the few.  We don’t have to individually barter goods.  Only by voluntarily using our skills and abilities to benefit humanity by structuring service, social and industrial unions to produce, develop and distribute the world’s<br />
resources can we hope to abolish poverty, homelessness, global environmental destruction, waste, illiteracy, war, injustice, crime,<br />
slavery, governmental and corporate corruption, overpopulation and ill health around the world.  Only by abolishing money can international<br />
cooperation secure genuine world peace, aided by Esperanto, the international language.</p>
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		<title>By: marblex</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153499</link>
		<dc:creator>marblex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/21/off-the-charts/#comment-153499</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;like everything else in this country, the published unemployment rate does not actually reveal the true numbers of unemployed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It doesn’t take into account people who have simply given up.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That will be most of us soon.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;New World Order means you have nothing, coroprations have EVERYTHING&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Enjoy slavery.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>like everything else in this country, the published unemployment rate does not actually reveal the true numbers of unemployed.</p>
<p>It doesn’t take into account people who have simply given up.</p>
<p>That will be most of us soon.</p>
<p>New World Order means you have nothing, coroprations have EVERYTHING</p>
<p>Enjoy slavery.</p>
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