I first became interested in how governments measure unemployment back in the early 90’s recession. I was unemployed and I couldn’t find a job and the same was true of many of my friends. Those who were able to find jobs were generally working farm below the level they had been in the past. And I’d read the unemployment rate numbers and it seemed to me they didn’t really reflect what I was seeing around me. So I decided to investigate. What I found out was that the unemployment rate didn’t measure exactly what I had thought it did.
Ian is a contributing editor at The Agonist..
The unemployed includes those people who don’t have a job, have looked for a job in the last four weeks, and who would take a job if it were offered. The unemployment rate is determined by dividing that number by the number of people in the labor force – which is equal to all the employed people + all the unemployed people.
It’s important to note that the labor force doesn’t include a number of groups. People serving in the military are not counted and neither is anyone who is institutionalized (which mostly means people in prison) isn’t either. Given the size of the US prison population (the largest per capita in the world) that’s not insignificant. Especially when you consider that blacks make up about 44% percent of the prison population (compared to 12% of the general population.) and blacks are much more likely to be unemployed than whites. In 2005 blacks had a 10.5% unemployment rate and whites a 4.4% rate. Consider that those who are incarcerated in general are more likely to have been unemployed (and more likely to be unemployed in the future due to the prejudice against ex-cons in hiring decisions) and you can see that keeping them locked up is not insignificant. (And this is one reason among many why you should be suspicious when people try to compare unemployment rates between countries.)
There are other caveats that tend to reduce measured unemployment. If, for example, you work for your family but aren’t paid, if your hours are over 15 you are considered employed, under 15 you aren’t considered part of the work force. So in one case – you decrease the unemployment rate, but in the other you don’t count as unemployed.
What all of this means is that the employment situation can be going to hell in a handbasket and the unemployment rate may not be going up very much. It may even go down.
So what I prefer to look at is not the unemployment rate – it is either the labor force participation rate which measures how many people are working, or still looking for work, and haven’t given up OR the employment to population ratio, which is simply how many people are employed as a proportion of the population. Because the working age population goes up every month, if the economy were to produce zero jobs, the job situation has actually gotten worse. Roughly speaking, to just stay even, the economy has to produce 150,000 jobs a month. Go take another look at the unemployment chart at the top, then compare to the labor force participation chart:
And compare to the employment ratio:
Note that the unemployment rate chart shows a significant improvement starting around July 2003 but the labor force and the participation rate charts show only a nominal improvement. People aren’t reentering the work force in large numbers – they’re staying out.
Another thing you’ll read a lot about is the "household survey" versus the "establishment survey."
The household survey is where the Bureau of Labor Statistics calls up households and asks them questions to determine if they are employed. The Establishment survey (also known as the payroll survey) is where the BLS calls up businesses.
There are two rules of thumbs about these surveys:
First – the establishment survey is generally considered more accurate. Apologists for the government in power will try and use Household numbers as a rule, because they tend to be better.
Second – there is a gap between the two surveys, with the household survey showing more people employed than the establishment survey. That’s because the household survey shows self employment, and the establishment survey doesn’t. In general if the gap is closing that’s a good thing – it means people are moving into payroll positions, and payroll positions on average, pay better than self-employment. When times are bad you’ll see the gap increasing as people do odd jobs and under the table work to keep themselves afloat. If the gap decreases while the labor force participation rate decreases at the same time (which happened recently) that’s a really bad sign – because it usually means you’re in a recovery, and it isn’t producing the sort of job growth that drives up wages and brings people into the job market.

(Note the distinctive heartbeat pattern. All the other charts used in this essay used seasonally adjusted figures – this one uses unadjusted figures. The heartbeat pattern is almost always there in unadjusted figures and shows graphically how seasonal our economy still is.)
So let’s present some rules of thumb to help you gauge how things are going:
- Forget the unemployment rate – look at the labor force participation rate or the employment/population ratio.
- Because the working age population of the US is going up every month, the job market must create jobs just to stay even. Roughly 150,000 jobs a month. If it creates less than that, consider things to have gotten worse.
- The Establishment survey is more accurate than the household survey. If the gap between the two surveys is decreasing that’s usually good. If it’s increasing, that’s usually bad.
I’ll deal with underemployment (ie. getting a worse job than your last one or than the one you're qualified for) and with wages in a future post but for now, the bottom line about the Bush employment situation is that it’s worse than when he took office – as a percentage of the population less people are employed.
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God Bless Jane
And her mother
JANE’S MOM!!
Wow. I’m looking forward to sinking my teeth into this.
Ian, great post.
BTW, what do all these economists actually do all day?
http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/am.....omists.htm
(put yer mouse in the graphic and move it around)
Pach at 4 — I know this would get the blood pumping for you. *g* Gang, I’ve asked Ian to do some econ basics for us — mainly because I want to get a better handle on them, and because it is important that we all understand this a lot better in talking about the Bush Administration’s maladjusted economic policies and where things could be. And Ian is amazingly gifted at explaing the complex econ issues in a way that even I can understand them. (Now THAT is talent!)
cbl - I left you a note late in EPU land with info you may find helpful.
On ECON in general: How many people have read “Freakonomics”?
Cool book.
So what your saying is;…. When clinton was braging of that “low” unemployment rate, it really was much higher?
Im not trying to argue but couldnt one say that just because the employment/population ratio (EPR) decreases that things are not necessarily worse? — indeed I could show the opposite to be true. Im sure if you looked at the EPR back in the 50s you would find a much lower ratio because most families were supported by only one employed person. Fast forward to today where the situation has, in my opinion, declined in that many families now need two or sometimes even three wage earners just to support themselves at the same standard. Yet the EPR I bet has risen dramatically. Im just saying that there is some relevance to measuring employment on the basis of who is looking to be employed. By that measue — assuming hypothetically equal standard of living by household between the 50s and today one might see no change in the unemployment rate even though the PPE would have shot up dramatically. See what I mean?
Thanks, Ian! I’m such about economics, and I’m hungry for explanations that don’t assume that I took that particular course in college (I didn’t). This is great, and I look forward to more posts from you.
However — in your third sentence, you mention people who were generally working farm below the level they had been in the past. I assume that this is a typo, yes? You’re not discussing “farm labor” here, right?
[Just a friendly mention, not being snarky at all.]
Thanks for your work on this article! I’ll go back and read it carefully again to digest it all.
They’re writing about us in the Guardian UK again.
“How a coalition of bloggers is turning the Democratic donkey
Veteran politicians under threat from ‘netroots’ uprising that bypasses corporate kingmakers “
You bet that TNR and lots of others are paying attention.
LOS ANGELES (AP) - New earthquake research confirms the southern end of the San Andreas fault near Los Angeles is overdue for a Big One. The lower section of the fault has not produced a major earthquake in more than three centuries.
The new study, which analyzed 20 years of data and is considered one of the most detailed analyses yet, found that stress has been building up since then, and that the fault could rupture at any moment.
“The southern section of the fault is fully loaded for the next big event,” said geophysicist Yuri Fialko of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla…
______
So, you’re an economist in risk management at a large property/casuality insuror. What do your now recommend? This could well be a “Dry Katrina” or worse.
Quietly start weaseling out of policies? Maybe via some inscrutable “change in terms” notices set in brain-bleed multi-page 4 point type?
‘eh?
TexasLady41,
yah sure, and of course Greenspan calling it the greatest economic expansion is history was so much smoke up our skirts too - we were delusional about the 22 million jobs created and all time high home ownership and migration to the middle class
thank god you’re here
When I was unemployed for a long time and my benefits ran out I was no longer a statistic. As I remained unemployed I also noticed that things seemed worse in the street and my neighborhood while the government would report things were improving. As I resorted to self employment, my income dropped and I had no benefits and paid my own taxes.. The WAPO has an analysis this evening on the divisions of class, the decline of the middleclass and middleclass neighborhoods-especially in the N.E. and midwest. Apparently as people raise in income and class they abandon their cities for newer and percieved safer suburbs and as the poor increase the city tax income declines— a self fulfilling and repeating decline of society.
Oops –
Sorry about my own typo! That should have said “I’m such a dunce about economics…”
Sheesh. Backing away in embarrassment….
BobbyG
Freakonomics was:
Interesting and fun … ultimately an exercise in looking at things differently…which is something most intelligent folks do regularly.
the economist flash is a riot…especislly when the indicators are down and they all twitch around
^_^
Economics is but one application of the worst lind of lie (following lies and damn lies)
I would much rather look at the labor market participation rate instead of the unemployment rate in order to make any econometric conclusions.
Great post Ian!
yeesh - i cannot spell or proof tonight
TexasLady41 at 9:
I think what Ian is saying is that when anyone talks about unemployment rates, they’re pretty much missing the boat or worse - using smoke and mirrors to
pimppump their own political polls!And all of those people who are “not unemployed” according to the administration’s figures aren’t going to have trouble with the new Bankruptcy Racket Act and won’t be bothered by the balloon ARM mortgages that they took out because the initial payments looked so low and doable.
Nope, everything is just rosy.
Where in the hell is Mary ? I’m sorry guys, just so soon after being with Jane and all -
so how long do I have to go before I get my Recovering Troll Responder pin back ?
“Because the working age population goes up every month, if the economy were to produce zero jobs, the job situation has actually gotten worse. Roughly speaking, to just stay even, the economy has to produce 150,000 jobs a month.”
Does this take into account the retiring baby boomers? I thought the work force age was top heavy with more people retiring than young people entering…? Where does this number come from?
Sorry Pade,
I did see all the great info downstairs and left you a note. Thanks a bunch, and slinky dog thanks ya too !
wtmesq @ 10
You’re not wrong - it doesn’t HAVE to be a bad thing that the employment ratio is decreasing. You picked up on something the article doesn’t cover - wages. Which is to say, wages are stagnant for the entire 2000’s for the vast majority of people. If people were leaving the workforce because they could afford to do so (ie. if wages were increasing), then it’d be good but that doesn’t seem to be what’s happening.
What happened since WWII is that there were two eras - one, up to 75, had rising wages for everyone. The second had essentially stagnant wages for most people. During that second era you saw a huge influx into the wage market, and a long term rising trend of labor force participation - people had to work, so both spouses started working. (Or maybe wages stopped rising because of increased participation - but for various reasons I don’t believe that.)
Anyway, either the next, or the second next article I’ll do will deal with the way the economy changed in the seventies and hopefully will help answer your concern in more detail.
(A whole other topic is the way we’ve financialized all sorts of activities that were off the books in the past, and made everything into paid employment.)
Ian,
this is a great post. As an economic illiterate I’ll have to read it a few more times, but I can see it answers most of the questions I ask whenever an unemployment or jobs # is released.
Think I’ll go back for a few more and then go scare the crap out of my husband by appearing suddenly conversant in da numbas
Thanks for the post. I think definitions are really important and understanding them helps explain why people’s personal view of the economy is much more pessimistic than all the upbeat signs Bush league economists point to. It’s a case of are you going to believe us and our numbers or your own lying eyes.
Unemployment rates have always seemed to me to be next to useless. In recent years, I have tended to look at the job creation numbers but the drawback with them is that they don’t as far as I know indicate the quality of the jobs being created.
BTW are there links for force participation and labor force/population ratios?
Christy or *ilson– please check the last thread and deal with something quickly that appeared at the end before someone gets hurt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
troll last thread. Kill it Now!
And please forgive my language. Sorry.
BobbyG #13:
We Calis have separate earthquake insurance (as distinguished from regular homeowners’ policies) these days. It’s a kind of assigned-risk pool that’s optional for homeowners. It’s about as expensive as the regular policy, so effectively post-Northridge, the prudent owner has seen his/her insurance costs double.
Oh, and since the major dam upstream from me is maintained by ACE, I buy flood insurance from a FEMA affiliate. Just thought I’d make your “dry Katrina” fantasy complete.
So when are you moving back? *g*
Yes! Whoever has the power, please kill #162 in last thread!
It is disgustingly vile and directed at Jane’s mom.
Please.
2 trolls left behind. PLEASE stomp them before they multiply.
164 as well as 162 please
Dave at 22 - the working age population is increasing. It’ll start decreasing somewhere around 2010 to 2012 iirc (assuming immigration stays steady). 150K is a rough rule of thumb number, but you can derive a number by taking the average increase in the working age population per month and multiplying it by the employment/population ratio. So, the average increase over the last 12 months has been about 230,000. The ratio is .63 as of this month, the number is actually 144,900.
Did we get them all? I am looking for trolls in the previous thread and it all looks like people we know.
Back at 172. Somebody needs to have his pass pulled.
“Working farm below the level”………?? Editor of what ???
My guess is that if the unemployment rate was anything close to resembling accurate it would show a true rate roughly double what is “official”. Today that would put it right around 10 to 12 percent, possibly a bit higher.
The aggregate civvy unemployment rate may be a noisy brute force measure with limited or misleading social utility, but I once used it in a VERY parsimonious regression model at my bank, one that uncannily predicted 30-plus day delinquency rates (subprime credit cards). I used a backward stepwise regression procedure that yielded a squeaky tight low-noise model with an R-square around .90 on merely 3 predictors (and about a 36 month look-back data set): [1] U.S. unemployment rate, [2] median age of portfolio (account life cycle thingy), and [3] a periodicity thingy that was some weird-assed sine wave function to account for seasonality (e.g. more people go arrears at certain times of the year, like holiday periods such as Q4).
It projected out a good 15 months beyond the study period at about plus/minus 1% observed vs predicted (delinquency rate). Then we started changing our portfolio targeting (higher up the subprime food chain), and it started getting wobbly.
Plain English bottom line: The subbies are the most vulnerable. Faced with a choice after losing a gig between making the rent or buying food, or paying the credit card?
Well, duhh.h.h.h.h…I used this $20,000 SAS software to provide an empirical blinding glimpse of the obvious, wrote it up in a $50 word White Paper replete with neat-o drop-shadowed Excel graphs and Greek Sigma shit.
Execs and OCC dudes fucking LOVED it.
Sen. Jim Talent, warmonger
Official biography:
No record of military service
Hugh @ 26
www.bls.gov has tons of fun stuff (if you’re an eco nerd like me, anyway).
This is the home page for employment stuff:
http://www.bls.gov/bls/employment.htm
These are the applets (need java) you can play around with (they can even generate charts for you although the above charts were excel generated since I like to have a spreadsheet with the stats to play with.)
Population survey:
http://data.bls.gov/labjava/outside.jsp?survey=ln
Establishment/payroll survey:
http://data.bls.gov/labjava/outside.jsp?survey=ce
If you play around with the payroll survey, one game I suggest is to try and figure out what proportion of the jobs created over the last few years are related to construction/housing (don’t forget to include things like mortgage lenders etc…)
BobbyG @ 5, try this one:
http://www.screentoys.com/
al-Scooter 30 -
LOL!!!
I spent a lot of time in SoCal when Sissy was sick. Love/Hate remembrance now. Majorly conflicted every time I go down there.
See http://www.bgladd.com/1in3
One day I’m gonna go back, hang out and stay drunk as shit for 2 or 3 weeks, and finish that essay. The last 6 months of that time are as indelible as were it yesterday.
neurophius - Where are congress members bios? por favor
Pol 41 -
Eeewwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
;)
Eureka
I just Googled–I think it was [”Jim Talent” senator biography] and it popped up near the top of the screen. This worked for other senators I Googled earlier tonight.
Thanks for the links, Ian.
TRex –
There are more showing up — their posts need to be deleted, their IP’s banned, and their computers blown up.
That bad . . .
neurophius - thx
and the trolls keep rolling on in …
Gang — I’ve closed out the comments in Jane’s post. Some asshat at RedState racists linked it up and crazy assholes were posting digusting shit about Jane and her mother and she does NOT need that right now on three hours of sleep and heading back to the hospital shortly. If anyone wonders why, I just wanted ot let you know that I had done that — and that I’ll pass along further comments from the other threads to Jane. Thanks.
hey; I made up a new word !
To whoever it was (Trex?) who kindly shut down the last thread and deleted the ugly posts –
Thank you!
I really don’t understand folks who are that filled with hatred. Their minds are toxic.
Thanks, Christy. Disgusting indeed. Subhuman.
Good idea and thanks Christy : )
I use this nickname because I’m so psychotic ! (get it? ha! ha! )
Tim at 49 — if you think that either Jane or I take orders from anyone, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you, too. Wake up and smell the chain yanking. Do you think Karl Rove stood up in NH and decalred war on lefty blogs and the smearing wouldn’t begin this week? Good heavens, wake the fuck up. This ain’t beanbag.
Ah, Christy, we cross-posted.
Thanks again. I can’t imagine what kind of “mental landscape” such people inhabit. It’s a landscape straight out of hell.
Maybe the little red staters earn points for their Dubya armbands — soon to be collector’s items, you know.
Great post. It is important to understand that the unemployment rate cannot be understood in isolation from other measures of prosperity. Some people have asked how late 90s low unemployment rate during Clinton (good) can be distinguished from similar rates now during Bush II (not so good IMHO). Amplifying on Ian Welsh’s point on wages in comment above, note the difference in average real hourly earnings between late 90s and early 00s (See below). With real hourly wages increasing rapidly during late 90s, most likely story is that poeple entering labor force and looking for work since it paid well. With wage growth falling or flat now, and labor force participation rate nor recovering at all during the Bush II lousy recovery, likely story is that people are finding better things to do with their time -like taking early retirement, exploring self-employment, disability, going to one earner households.
It’s like a puzzle and you have to try to fit the stats on quantities and prices together.
I dunno of Ian has a yea or nay on my comment, but that is my take.
Figures and sources below.
Also, re other comments on interpretation of labor force participation and employment ratio over time, check out BLS site for employment ratios by age and sex. You will see that increase in labor force participation by women largely over by late 80s, so that is not an issue for comparing numbers from early 90s onward.
Year wage %change
1990 7.65 –
1991 7.58 -0.92%
1992 7.55 -0.43%
1993 7.53 -0.23%
1994 7.53 0.00%
1995 7.53 0.01%
1996 7.56 0.38%
1997 7.68 1.61%
1998 7.89 2.70%
1999 8.00 1.36%
2000 8.03 0.43%
2001 8.11 1.04%
2002 8.23 1.49%
2003 8.27 0.45%
2004 8.23 -0.47%
2005 8.17 -0.73%
2006 8.18 0.08%
Series Id: CES0500000049
Seasonally Adjusted
Super Sector: Total private
Industry: Total private
Data Type:AVERAGE HOURLY EARNINGS, 1982 DOLLARS
http://www.bls.gov/ces/home.htm#data
Create Customized Tables (one screen)
Um, psychotte — I get a portion of the “advertising revenues.” And, I’m really happy to tell you that thus far this year, I’m making…um…$1.27 an hour. (Well, less after this week, because since Jane’s mom is int he hospital, I’ve been working a lot more hours for no more money than I already make…)
Hell, I made more in a month as a practicing attorney than I’ve made since I started blogging with Jane in October. Stop being a dumbass — no one blogs for the advertising revenues.
Sorry for the OT:
EPU’d from last thread, but worth repeating, out of a desire to voice my appreciation and consideration for Jane and those of you who work to keep FDL a community.
My father died a few years ago, and around the same time, I had a daughter (newborn) who was terminally ill, and receiving chemotherapy for tumours in the heart, lungs, kidney, spleen and liver.
Things were pretty grim, and it was a hard time.
Looking back, I feel like I crawled through the days, I didn’t walk or stand proud.
But I do know this, that I was around many at that time, and that they were those who chose to be there with us at that time, they were those who chose to love.
There was a powerful and understated message of hope and love amidst that suffering.
I hope you find the same strength, caring and comfort, when that time comes.
BTW, as it turned out, my daughter, who had less than a .01 percent chance of seeing six-months, will be celebrating her seventh birthday this August. My father, I think he died well, and was at peace with what he was heading into.
I’ve seen a lot of death and dying, and have found that a caring family and a peaceful hope help for facing that great unknown.
I remember admitting a patient to palliative care a number of years ago, she was quite elderly, and her husband, who was lucid and attentive, was by her side as we were admitting her. She died while we were transferring her to her bed. She stopped breathing, and she was terminal, and was under do not resuscitate orders. I recall vividly her husband’s attendance on her at that time, and the peacefulness of her passing, it was like being present at a childbirth, just something very natural, happening in due course.
His parting words to her we’re, “Well, dear, its time for you to look after me now.” He tottered out of the room, and I stood there in a solemn daze with the nurse.
Here’s to hope and consolation Jane, sorry for your hardship at this time.
Eureka,
In google, you can type wiki plus the name for a quick bio. It appears to be better than what you can find on the Congress official site.
re the prior thread:
Anne and Sophist– thanks for sharing your wonderful thoughts. Sophist– I am happy you experienced a real miracle; they do happen and you just reaffirmed it for me.
Thanks Christy - that was truly repugnant
you know, often in the past when some horrible, petty cruelty is visited upon some poor innocent soul, many of us scratch our head and wonder what kind of ‘person’ does that ? - well there ya go, mystery solved - before the advent of red state, lgf, those cretins would’ve been out in the back yard torturing some poor little kitten or puppy
Sophist –
Thank you for your stories, they’re so beautiful and shining and true.
And just the opposite of troll hatred.
Let’s focus on the miracles of love. It’s all that matters anyway.
OT
Bay Buchanan on Colbert right now talking about fences. Maybe we should put the red staters and LGFers on the other side of a very high fence.
I wonder if she knows that Colbert’s personna is a put on? She seems to think he’s with her.
Cretins at Redstate? After Ben Domenech? Color me surprised.
Odd thing about the comment numbers here%u2014they shift. beware.
EPU’d or something (comments closed?)
Jane,
Remember to take time to breathe. Stretch. Maybe stand up and pace a bit to get the blood moving to the brain. Crying also helps: deep breaths clean out the lungs and tears flood out accumulated toxins and byproducts of stress.
It is so easy to get locked into tension and worry while sitting in the hospital next to someone we care about. And it is so important to take a deep breath of fresh air or look out the window.
The Internet, and our communities, will survive a day or a week without us, and we can survive a week without connection, too. That’s what a network is for!
Best wishes for your mother!
OT/Prior Thread: I lost Dad in March and Mom in May, and during these toughest months of my life the moments I could steal away for my FDL fix sustained me, entertained me, and got me ready for another day.
Jane, I wish I could give even an ounce of what you’ve given me in return, but words fail.
Breath deep. Stay well.
before the advent of red state, lgf, those cretins would’ve been out in the back yard torturing some poor little kitten or puppy
or blowing up frogs with firecrackers —
maybe that’s why the red state lgf’ers are so in luv with Commander Codpiece — in his dim bulb scaredy cat swagger, they have truly found a wankerific one of their own . . .
whew! the black-costumed stagehands are getting quite the workout tonight ….
Tim at 66 — Well, the answer to you question is as follows: no one elected Markos leader, and trust me when I say that dissent is pretty freaking common among the lefty blogs. If you read them, you know that. Anyone who thinks that Markos (or anyone else, for that matter) tells anyone what to print or not to print doesn’t know any of the bloggers involved. Imagine telling Jane not to do something. Or MaryScott O’Connor. Or me. Or Aravosis. Or…well, you get the picture.
Aside from the fact that I’m barely scraping together enough guest posters this week to cover all our usual posting shifts, that I’ve been putting in 18 hour days on the blog, and trying to play with my daughter in between writing and coordinating. And the fact that Jane has been at the hospital in the ICU with her mom (until yesterday when she finally got out of the ICU) or on her way to OK to see her mom…well, neither of us really gave a rats ass about anything other than covering the blog and/or how Jane’s mom was doing — and that is still pretty much how things stand with both of us.
Oh, rosalind, I am sorry for you ;( That is so awful.
Back to the topic.
When W was touting his “great” economy the folks on the now sadly defunct “Morning Sedition” on AAR used to have Robert Reich join them monthly when the new economic numbers came out.
Every month, he would remind the listeners that there needed to be 150,000 new jobs created just to break even. That figure stuck in my head, and whenever getting into the econ. conversations that were usually above my head, I always had that number to pull out.
Hugh- Thanks….no matter where I search Mark Pryor is still my Joe Lieberman. *g*
Contrary to what some people believe there is very little money in blogging. I would make more taking a minimum wage job at McD’s than I do from blogging. A lot more.
Christy-
Everyone here (non-asshats, of course:) is very appreciative of your work this past week, and always, of course. And congrats on the guest posters, they’ve been fantastic. I’m sure this has been a very stressful time, but you’ve been great!
Prayers aimed in your general direction, Jane.
Y’all are awesome.
There is oceanfront property in Arizona for Sale? Wow…. I thought I was just going to wait for Global Warming to make it true.
Ian, a veteran of workcomp injuries(Nursing), 3 layoffs(Health Insurance) and the bad luck of obtaining a Computer Science Degree just as the Tech market blew up, their is another factor with unemployment, that is the increase in applications for Social Security Disability(SSD). In addition, with fewer and fewer employers offering or due to the high cost of employer based health insurance, disabiled workers choose SSD, when qualified, they also are covered under Medicare.
In a good employment environment, workers who could file and approved for SSD don’t because they can find work, usually employers are accomodating to disabilities and health issues. When jobs are scarse, with the shifting of employer attitudes to screw any protections and support for workers with disabilities, workers with disabilities drop out of the workforce.
Bobby G #43:
That was quite a ride. Ever read James Ellroy?
Also, when you come back, please advise if you need a designated driver. Or a round bought.
I have a daughter, too. And I listen well. Prolly my only redeeming social value of any significance.
al-scooter
your wonderful sense of humor is a redeeming value too.
Did ya know FDL offers a ‘turndown’ service ?
before I leave, here’s a little truffle for your pillows:
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and hey, all you econ-nerds (BobbyG, that includes you) am impressed as hell and actually learned something - a gal could have a wonkasm
‘night pups
Ian - Labor force participation? Roughly 34% are not employed or participating. Does that 34% exclude retirees?
Christy, you’re a real peach for holding down the fort, and we all really, really appreciate it. I’ll second skippy’s sentiment: ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM - Don’t let the bastards grind you down!
cbl at 86 — and you had to do that on our slow week. We were averaging way more than that per day. *g*
new thread — old bullshit
I was just thinking that one of my betes noires is the term “economic dislocation”. I have heard economists (often from Harvard it seems) who use this blithely when what it really means is hundreds of thousands of people and their families put through the ringer. I have often wished that these economists might go through a similar dislocation and see how it feels. “Free trade” and “globalization” are other terms where the human connotations and damage have been deleted. I was wondering if Ian had any thoughts on the tendency of economists to exclude the “human costs” of their theories and prognostications.
I realise that the concept of independent thought is troublesome and fraught with cognitive peril for the special children of the Right…And that kicking a hole in the side of the boat to draw attention to their own lack of a life preserver (figuratively speaking) is a habit that, once learned, is hard to break.
But picking an economics thread to drop their cyberUnderoos and whiz on the Drawing Room carpet in someone else’s home is in exceedingly poor taste, albeit with the extra added benefit of negating whatever meagre point they were attempting to make.
Ian, thanks for your explanation at 35, I too was wondering how the figures in your post reconciled with the “shrinking ratio of workers to retirees” meme.
cbl - wow. I’m impressed beyond all measure. And believe me, I’m not an easily impressed gal.
new thread — loofah boy still hates america
http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....e-freedom/
shoe #83:
Thanks! When accepting criticism or praise, I’ve learned to wiegh the source carefully. Your comment means a lot to me.
weigh the source, darn it!
cbl
Thanks so much for turning my pillow down. I needed that. Been a long day.
Sweet dreams all :-)
al-scooter
you know I love you. But please don’t talk about my weight!
Hugh #89:
E. Gregory Mankiw, perhaps? Heh heh heh.
shoe, as long as you don’t talk about mine. I, uh, already know what mine is…too high!
Bureau of Labor Statistics Glossary, for those who want to know the detailed definitions.
I think (95% sure) that retirees are included if they are looking for work, or take job, usually part time.
http://www.bls.gov/bls/glossary.htm
What I am really asking? Are one third of eligible work force, in good health, actually out of the loop?
ok thanks wesgpc
Don’t know if anyone’s posted it, but the Dems are going to make raising the minimum wage a center piece of the camaign.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.c.....009055.php
Eureka - retirees are included. Everyone over 16 is considered to be in the working age population.
ck - I am glad to see that long overdue pledge by Dems. Needs to be about twelve an hour.
I’ve got the same question as Dave above.
I don’t think it’s enough to look at overall employment/unemployment rates. Some sectors are already hurting bad from labour shortages - health, education, public service, trades and technology - they are being hit hard by retiring boomers. Also employers who can’t offer decent quality jobs - at least where I live. Most of the work I’ve been getting lately (I’m a consultant in the field of workforce development) has been related in one way or another to labour shortages.
The competition for skilled immigrants is going to get intense - in some industries is already getting intense - and importing skills is not going to be a tenable strategy for dealing with skills shortages in the long run.
Another way to look at this - when the unemployment rate (using government numbers) gets down to around 3-4 percent like it is in my little corner of Canada, you are, quite frankly, starting to get down to a core group of job seekers who are pretty much unemployable by all reasonable standards. Politically incorrect, I know, but there you are. But in many cases you are dealing with multiple barriers to employment - mental health, prison records, weak literacy/numeracy/communication skills, poor understanding of employer expectations, learning disabilities, FAS/FAE, you name it.
So why the Americans are talking about chucking out all their “unofficial” immigrants, I have no idea - unless they’re expecting their economy to crash and burn - this seems a tad short-sighted.
I know in Toronto, and likely in other cities, if they deported all the illegal immigrants, there wouldn’t be a construction industry. (OK, maybe I overstated it just a little.)
Could be I’m over-generalizing from my own experience, but all my research indicates labour shortage issues are being experienced world-wide.
Janet
Great idea on the econ posts, and good job Ian.
If I may, there are other reasons beside the wage trend why comparing employment ratios as far apart as the 1950s and 1990s won’t give an accurate picture of how good the prevailing economy was for a typical wage-earner. Biggest probably is that the participation of women is much greater now, and for reasons that are not fully determined by falling real wages. Even if only some of women who work now, would also be happy to work in high-wage conditions like the 1950s rather than stay home, that still would mean that any standard of living now would be accompanied by an employment ratio that’s to some degree higher than before. (Of course, this also re-emphasizes the difficulty of counting unpaid housework that Ian referred to.)
Any labor economists out there? No doubt there are other shifts out there that could either raise or lower the ratio one would expect.
Btw, this kind of thing is often called a regime shift or change, I kid you not.
Ian - Thanks so much for the post.
A convoluted demographic, retirees. So many in this “participation” category may have income? Will study this and links. Wesgpc and other econo wise commenters are way over my retailers head. Looking forward to more of your posts.
JLR - Unemployment rates have been very very low (lower than 3 or 4%) for periods of many years at various times. It’s true that there are tight labor markets in specific industries (including in the US) and in specific areas, but that’s always the case short of a geniune depression (which we haven’t had for a long time.) It doesn’t mean the overall economy doesn’t have slack employment however (short version of the current US economy - if you work in a protected sector things are good to tight. If you work in an unprotected sector you’re gettting Delpi’d.)
The “unskilled/unsuitable” labor thing probnably has some truth to it, but you probbly know what the unemployment rates amongst skilled employees in their fifties is… The other thing I find is ridiculous credentialization and an attitude that ‘we don’t want to train’. There are exceptions, certainly, but then I’m sure you’re aware of what the turnover rate in nursing is…. We can’t train em fast enough, they leave so fast.
prostratedragon - I tend to think that women into the workforce was more about a reaction to economic reality than a cause (though like most social science things it’s really hard to tell).
When you look at a chart of the post war period it’s really striking when the change in rising wages happens - it’s completely clear, a move from rising to stagnant in the mid eighties. And when the percentage of wome stops increasing wages still stay stagnant…
I will have a post on wages, I agree with various posters that it’s necessary. I just didn’t want this to turn into a textbook. ;)
Ian, I absolutely agree with you on credentialism. Employers use credentials as a screening tool because they don’t have, or won’t used better methods of determining applicant skills. In this they are their own worst enemy. They end up both screening unsuitable candidates in and suitable candidates out because they over-rely on pieces of paper.
I also agree on the issue of training. I certainly know employers who think new employees should be able to walk into a job without training, and whose idea of training