(guest post by Taylor Marsh)
"The news is going to be heartbreaking for my family," Ken MacKenzie, uncle of Army Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, told NBC’s "Today" show. "Because the U.S. government did not have a plan in place, my nephew has paid for it with his life," he said. Missing Soldier’s Uncle Criticizes U.S.
President Bush said this on Monday: "There will be no early withdrawal as long as we run the Congress and occupy the White House." Got political ego? At least we know the Republicans’ priorities. Saving political face.
The Democrats are united on the most important aspect of all: we all want to change course on Iraq.
Cut and run?
Republicans want to sit and watch. That’s the Republican plan. Sit and watch (see update) until 2009, but passing the buck won’t get the job done.
Our soldiers know what they’re getting into when they volunteer. But they clearly deserve better than they’re getting from the Bush administration and the Republicans who back Bush at all costs. I’ve heard personally from military men, as well as interviewed a father of one Marine facing charges, and I can tell you that the families of our soldiers are begging for real leadership. Something that will not come from the Republicans.
Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker and Pfc. Kristian Menchaca were tortured, then beheaded and killed, their bodies unrecognizable. Yet the Republican response is to sit and watch.
"Cut and run" may be cute and catchy, but some slogan to smear Democratic leaders doesn’t help our troops or the Iraqi people.
The American people are with us. They want a timetable, "benchmarks," but a change of course, for sure.
"Which comes closer to your view about U.S. troops in Iraq? The U.S. should set a timetable for withdrawal by announcing that it will remove all of its troops from Iraq by a certain date. The U.S. should keep troops in Iraq as long as necessary without setting any timetable for withdrawal." Options rotated.
Timetable: 53%
No Timetable: 41%
Unsure: 6%
It’s time for a referendum on the Republican "leadership" on Iraq. Democratic Senators John Kerry and Russ Feingold have joined together to demand it. Levin and Reed have another way, but all Democrats want a change in course. Even Joe Biden is demanding no permanent bases in Iraq.
Bush and the Republicans say "stay the course," but offer no course on which we can build. American troops in limbo, living a life of no way out or through is not a course, it is a suicide mission for warriors. We’ve got the dead, the wounded and critically maimed to prove it.
Kerry’s got it right, "lie and die" is how he described Republicans. If you’ve got a better one, let’s hear it.
The Republicans have no plan.
They have no purpose.
The president has chosen to punt. The Republicans willing to sit and watch, kicking the war down the years until 2009, as our soldiers die, hoping someone else will provide the answers.
One general begs to differ with W., and he actually knows what he’s talking about.
Before U.S. forces stand down, Iraqi security forces must stand up. The problem in Iraq is not military competency; it is political consolidation. Iraq has a large officer corps with plenty of combat experience from the Iran-Iraq war. Moktada al-Sadr’s Shiite militia fights well today without U.S. advisors, as do Kurdish pesh merga units. The problem is loyalty. To whom can officers and troops afford to give their loyalty? The political camps in Iraq are still shifting. So every Iraqi soldier and officer today risks choosing the wrong side. As a result, most choose to retain as much latitude as possible to switch allegiances. All the U.S. military trainers in the world cannot remove that reality. But political consolidation will. It should by now be clear that political power can only be established via Iraqi guns and civil war, not through elections or U.S. colonialism by ventriloquism.
Cut and Run? You Bet, By Lt. Gen. William E. Odom
Our soldiers won the war, they captured Saddam, the Iraqis have voted and their government is in place. Our job is done.
It’s time to change course in Iraq. Democrats all agree on that.
Note: By the way, I have no idea where I heard "sit and watch" first, but it was somewhere on cable. Can’t attribute it, but I’ve heard it more than once.
UPDATE: I just had someone email me some links to "sit and watch," which originated with Rep. Rahm Emanuel! It’s obviously gone viral. Also see here, here and here.
Related posts:
- The End of the Delusion in Iraq
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Pride And Petulance
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- Meet Anthony Woods, Progressive Candidate For Congress In The Bay Area Special Election
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End the wars! NOW.
Kerry’s “lie and die” is a pretty good description of the Repugs’ policy.
Fitz.
2,504.
Just a number. These 2? Just a number. Right, Mr. Snow?
http://www.bgladd.com/Just_a_Number.jpg
:(
Get out, apologize endlessly, pay reparations, elect Dems this year, impeach and off to the Hague!
Then go about making this a peaceful world. No landmines, NO NUKES, dialogue, diplomacy, humility and fix our country and help others.
just plain horror…I had enough befoe they went …
caregiver to a vet
Can Chimpy pardon Libby for anything he has ever done or only for specific charges. Can’t Fitz than just charge him with any of the other crimes not charged? Does Bush really want to give a presidential pardon for the underlying crimes? Outing an undercover CIA agent, disclosing secret or confidential information. Isn’t that kinda hard to write on a piece of paper for all eternity? Kinda hard to keep trotting out that whole meme about rethugs being trustworthy on the issue of security wouldn’t it?
Thank, you, Taylor.
I would really like to hear one argument, just one sound argument, from a Republican or pro-war Dem as to what we’re doing in Iraq today.
We’re not helping to rebuild infrastructure. We’re not safeguarding the populace. We’re doing nothing but causing mayhem each day we remain.
I used to think we owed the Iraqi people at least a semblance of security and aiding them in some kind of normalcy, helping to get their electricity back up, etc., but we don’t even give lip-service to any kind of reconstruction efforts anymore.
We smashed and we grabbed. Okay. Can we leave now?
I agree with you. However bad the case for war was in the beginning, there was no excuse at all to be there after December 2003. Waiting around for elections only made matters worse…
You bet, Suzanne.
So, what’s the phrase to combat the ridiculous spin of “cut and run.” Do you like Kerry’s “lie and die”? Other ideas? Something short and strong.
This is no longer a “war”. It is an OCCUPATION. We need to stop calling it a war. Cutting and running frames it as cowardly in time of war. This is not a war. It is an occupation.
Two brave soldiers, once lost, will arrive late at night in the belly of a military aircraft, under the cover of American flags, their coffins hidden from the lens of the cowardly American press… too bad they don’t grow a set of balls in unison and start printing coffins on their front pages. They showed us Ronald Reagan’s coffin for a damn week…
“While Republicans sit and watch, Democrats think and act!”
(Now if we could just find a Dem office-holder or two to point to . . .)
Suzanne 12 -
You’re right, it’s not a war. Occupation seems too kindly a word, though. I think I’ll start calling it a campaign of thuggery, torture, and terror. The Three T-s.
Ws war = Sh!t and Squat.
Everyone read ccmask @ 13 again.
Good one, lotus.
There were two recent posts I saw that really drove home the war vs occupation framing, one at Kos and the other at Booman.
Here is the KOS link:
http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/15/20454/2448
Here is the Booman link:
http://www.boomantribune.com/?…..145725/433
at 5am in Baghdad, the temperature is down to a balmy 77ºF but there’s no electricity for coffee-makers or toasters …
the important Frontline story on DoD vs CIA starts at 9pm ET on PBS… watch it !
A brutal, illegal occupation.
They took Ron’s coffin coast to coast, too.
There will be no early withdrawal as long as we run the Congress and occupy the White House.
Let’s run with this — Bush says as long as he occupies the White House, there will be no end to the dying in Iraq.
2500 American Dead is just a number to the Bush Administration.
5000 American Dead will just be another number, three years from now.
The Bush Plan: LIE and DIE — and let someone else clean up the mess.
didn’t Murtha call it “stay and pay”?
Ahh, Taylor, this all just makes me so sad. My stomach is in knots thinking about the families of these young men, as they try to grapple with the horror of what their last days/moments were like. I don’t know how a parent could ever let go of that.
With Republicans still talking about drawing down troops by year’s end, it occurs to me that they want to do the same thing the Democrats do, but can’t allow themselves to be seen as doing the Dems’ bidding. Next time someone talks about cutting and running, I would like someone – Howard Dean could do it well – to say, “Excuse me, but how is the administration drawing down troops not “cutting and running?” – is it because Republicans make that decision and not Democrats?”
Or, how do you like, “Cut and run – you bet: we’re gonna cut the crap and run this operation like it should have been all along.”
We have to turn it against them. Mehlman’s already using “lie and die” against Kerry – accuses him of “using” the deaths of honorable patriots for political purposes. Well, Kenny would know, wouldn’t he?
Just a reminder of the Frontline show on Cheney and the war on PBS tonight.
Cheney aint gonna like this show on PBS !!!
Three step plan for a minimal netroots program.
1) Tactical retreat to the Murtha line
2) Strategic review among coalition partners
3) Regional virtual summit for all parties including UBL’s group.
Vichy Dems opposing can be selected for extinction to the degre th support or oppose.
Duck and cover is not policy. This is reasonable realistic and pragmatic utilitarian policy.
Taylor, thanks. Always good to see you here.
Suzanne’s right about it being an occupation, not a war. What we are doing there in no way resembles a war, except that people are dying.
“Lie and die” is good. On the last thread, LindaR said the Republicans are more concerned with “saving face than saving lives.”
Other possibilities, most of which will suck, but just to kick off more brainstorming:
Duck and hide
Snooze and lose
Spin and grin (while Al-Qaeda wins)
Stall and crawl
I would really like to hear one argument, just one sound argument, from a Republican or pro-war Dem as to what we’re doing in Iraq today.
That’s what the “cut and run” approach is for – to divert attention from the “we shouldn’t be there” issue.
The same people using “cut and run” were also on the floor arguing in favor of an Iraqi amnesty plan for anyone who “only” killed Americans — while our soldiers are in the country, on the ground.
How many days after Mitch McConnell supporting amnesty for killers of American troops has this come? Anyone want to ask Mitch about amnesty for the killers of those two soldiers?
Once we are gone, Iraq will have to do what it has to do in order to patchwork peace by pieces. Maybe they do need, or will need, that kind of amnesty provision – in which case we need to be GONE while they are talking about it.
Having a govt discuss amnesty for killing our troops while they are right there, I just can’t process it.
Odom spells out all the many reasons we need to be gone. If Republican allegiance to a sound bite is all that is keeping us there – how desperately sad and immoral.
Cheney aint gonna like this show on PBS !!!
I’d like to strap that SOB into a chair and run a loop of the Iraqi men, women and children we have raped and tortured. I’d keep him there until he realizes the Iraqi people are human beings and grieve for their families just like we do.
He’d probably be in that chair a pretty long time.
Republican FUBYR Party
Somebody else here first referenced the booman article. Their name is like….3 initials. Anyways, I think it’s good, but I modified it:
“We Won The War
Now Let’s End The Occupation”.
I refer to the R team’s policy, borrowing Kerry, as “lie, and die”.
Ghostman
The wingnut-ish PBS station in Orlando won’t show Frontline until 10 — anything to ensure a smaller audience. I’ve been awake since 5-ish and not sure I can hold out that long, either.
Drat.
Hey, Leslie, glad to be guest posting again.
Yes, punaise, Murtha’s was “stay and pay.”
Everyone seems to like “lie and die,” that’s what I’m hearing, but keep the ideas coming.
“Cut and run – you bet: we’re gonna cut the crap and run this operation like it should have been all along.”
Good one, Anne.
“Our soldiers won the war, they captured Saddam, the Iraqis have voted and their government is in place. Our job is done.”
Taylor, you nailed it right there. That’s the way to frame it. Our troops did exactly what they were supposed to do. Now they’re doing something they weren’t trained or equiped to do.
When Bush came out of a cabinet meeting in December 2003 and said:
He thought the risk was over and it was time for rewards. He told the rest of the world to take a hike and left our troops to act like cops in a warzone without the right gear or enough international support.
They were put in that position so Bush and Cheney’s buddies could get an exclusive deal on the ultimate free market. Now they’re in there so Bush and Cheney can pass the problem they created to somebody else.
“Cut and run – you bet: we’re gonna cut the crap and run this operation like it should have been all along.”
From your mouth to every Dem’s ears, Anne!
we’re gonna cut the crap and run this operation like it should have been all along.
Anne that’s quite brilliant. I’d shut up if someone came back with that one at me.
Thanks for the good thoughts, everyone — back from the hospital today, Mom’s doing a bit better, she transferred out of ICU to a normal room and they think the internal bleeding has stopped. We really appreciate all the support from Christy, the posters and all the kind comments.
Oh and Taylor, great post as always.
Hang in there, Jane!
XXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOO, Jane! Hope you can get some peaceful rest.
Oh, Jane, blessings your way, lady. Thanks so much.
I’m in Florida and I pay $70 or more for cable and I don’t PBS…why is it blocked?
You know, as a stock investor/trader, there’s an adage that is very appropriate.
Each day, when you decide NOT to sell a stock you own, you have in essence bought it.
Each time you choose not to sell, you have decided to “buy” at today’s price.
That keeps me honest, and makes me dump losers more quickly.
Who would “buy” Iraq today? Who would look at the situation today and decide to spend one dollar or one life?
If we wouldn’t “buy” it today, then we’re just afraid to dump a loser. Investors do it every day. Of course, no one loses their life when I fuck up because I’m distracted, mistaken or emotionally invested.
9:00pm Frontline – Central Time in D/FW (KERA)
{{{{{{{Jane, Jane’s mom, and family}}}}}}}
So glad things are looking up!
Hey, Jane!
How EXCELLENT to see “Jane Hamsher says” again! We’re all pulling for you-all, Jane — it was great to hear an upbeat report today. May every day see progress now!
glad tidings, Jane
“Cut and Run.” Save an American soldier’s life.
Before U.S. forces stand down, Iraqi security forces must stand up.
AP: Iraqi Troops Killed 2 U.S. Soldiers
Another inconvenient truth hidden. And what a surprise, during the 2004 election campaigning.
on the Tues. 6/20/06 Lehrer report:
2 guest experts on the Al Qaida / Iraq problem were interviewed by Lehrer.
If I understood correctly, they essentially agreed Al Qaida influence was not much more welcomed in Iraq than was the U.S. presence. But their influence grew & was tolerated largely as an outgrowth of Iraqis’ growing resentment of U.S. [bushco] actions in the country.
Further, Al Qaida presence in Iraq has devolved into use of the area as a base for sending out cells to other areas in the world., since that apparently seemed more productive to the Al Qaida leaders’ plans than trying to win Iraqis over to their way of thinking.
If the above is true, does this scenario not totally fly in the face of what the administration has been, and still is, trying to “sell” to American people as the reason(s) for “staying the course” in Iraq?!
Anne – fantastic response. The best.
UrbanP – If we wouldn’t “buy” it today Exactly.
al-Scooter – thanks for the info below.
“Republicans want to sit and watch.”
Hmm. I think we’re all going to have to steal Taylor’s line.
OT, oops: (salon.com)
Why bother to find a direct reply to “cut and run”? Put the ball right back in the administration’s court. From the start, they’ve tried to get by on wishful thinking. What we need – from THEM, they’re in charge – is a plan.
And if you don’t have a timetable, you don’t have a plan.
For the administration, it’s all about withdrawal happening “someday.”
In the meantime, the months tick by. In the meantime, the bill for this open-ended war spirals out of control. In the meantime, we underfund and undersupply our soldiers with disastrous and tragic results.
Failure to plan… is planning to fail.
And if you don’t have a timetable, you don’t have a plan.
Craig #54 – Can’t take credit. Don’t know where I heard it first; somewhere on cable I think, but it’s been said more than once.
neuro,
left all kinds of MSRNC contact info downstairs
jane – just good to see your name on the thread – continuing prayers for strength and comfort your way
could tell I’m in the wrong mood for the Frontline piece, thank god for Tivo
now I’ll go up and read what I’m sure is a great Taylor Marsh post and back on the flip with wine and cheese
“There will be no early withdrawal as long as we run the Congress and occupy the White House.”
“occupy” is an interesting choice of words – occupy Iraq, occupy the White House.
this PBS pgm is damn good … a lot of it is based on Suskind’s new book.
DAMN GOOD !
Even I am learning a lot and I’ve followed this shit closely …
Note the royal “we” too . . .
I pulled Jordan’s post back for a little while to give this thread more time, because I think it’s worth more discussion, and the timing of the Jordan post went kinda quick.
Mom’s doing a bit better, she transferred out of ICU to a normal room and they think the internal bleeding has stopped.
It’s so good to hear your mother is doing better, Jane — was she taking aspirin?
20 years ago, my mother almost died from internal bleeding in her esophagus and stomach. She was taking aspirin for arthritis, and an antibiotic for an infection.
What people don’t realize about aspirin is that it is an anti-coagulant. Take too much of it, and you will bleed to death. Aspirin abuse is a silent killer, for just this reason.
yessiree, *ilson! Cabal…
I would like to stress the “lie” part is the calling it a war when it is an occupation. I refuse to use their talking points and will create my own.
I doubt anyone would deny the “die” part.
Lie and die is pretty powerful and right on the ball.
Bush=Dead Soldiers
Stay the course and die
Let those who served command those who do
What people don’t realize about aspirin is that it is an anti-coagulant. Take too much of it, and you will bleed to death. Aspirin abuse is a silent killer, for just this reason.
This is so true. I had a friend who was told to take aspirin regularly after knee surgery. She wound up with bleeding ulcers.
Thanks, Pach, because I think you’re right on.
Urban Pirate @ 44 — That’s why I like to say the people who sneer about cut and run are like the Enron executives telling the little guy to hold on to his Enron stock.
There is a word in the stock market for shmucks left holding the bag after the smart money gets out, and it’s used with the same snooty derision: bagholders.
I guess the Republican Party wants the military and the American people to be their Baghdadholders.
What has happened with WaPo the last few days?
Real articles, real facts. They still have the idiot ops, but on the story front, it has been one solid, sit down, read it once then re-read it story after another. Iraqi Prisons, procurements and supplies issues, Rumsfeld’s tanker, the release of the embassy memo . . .
It’s like a real newspaper again.
Jane, the gang has done a great job stepping in for you while you take care of your mom.
Well, if anybody comes up with one to top Anne’s formula, it’ll have to REALLY blow our doors off!
anne’s cut and run retort is brilliant.
greed and bleed
I vote for Anne’s response too.
Yeh, how ’bout that, Mary? I’ve been kinda holding my breath, afraid I might wake up.
Cheney aint gonna like this show on PBS !!!
We should soon see a new push by the GOP and the rightwing noise machine to rid the “republic” of “commie propaganda bullhorns” like PBS!
Jane! So great to hear good news from you. Our thoughts are with you. Take good care.
oh my the cabal has been named and they worked in a vault…
Holy crap, this Frontline special is detailed and quite good thus far. Not new, but put together as a whole instead of piecemeal. Quite effective.
ccmask @ 13 – perfect darlin’ !
Suzanne -
Right the F* On ! saw that booman piece and have done everything in my power to get it to anyone I thought might have enough firing synapses to use it. Dems, pundits, bloggers, etc.
took it out for a test drive at the grocery store – these god fearing folks got it right away
the PBS program is helping me understand how the Vice-President’s Office could be so cavalier about CIA Agent Plame’s security …
Bush is killing our troops by changing the torture policy. Rummy/Cheney had Iraq prisoners tortured and killed now the same is happening to our troops. My heart goes out to these young men yet Americans do nothing.
Soldiers do volunteer. When they die it is arguable they brought about their own demise. Why anyone would volunteer for today’s military is beyond my comprehension. A rudimentary level of knowledge about the civilian leadership commanding your actions should cause you to abstain from service. If enough people refuse service they’d have to bring back the draft. Then we all should refuse to report. What are there, maybe 50 million people in the nation draft eligible in terms of age and physical condition? Where do you jail 50 million people refusing to respond to a draft? It is within the power of the people to topple this regime. Walk away from the military. If you don’t and you die because of it you literally asked for it. Pity the orphans, the widows and widowers, the siblings and parents robbed of a loved one. Don’t pity the soldier unless you’re lamenting them for their stupidity and blind allegiance to the criminal, genocidal class that rules our nation.
This is a war for resources with the permanent bases and Vatican sized embassy being built to protect our prize: the oil and natural gas fields. One third of Iraq hasn’t been surveyed for oil/ng yet, which may mean even larger reserves than currently acknowledged – the second highest after their neighbor to the west. But the wells in Saudi Arabia are probably past peak or we’d have an increase in output to bring prices down and the Saudis want us out to placate their mullahs anyway. So we’ve just moved next door. This administration has no intention of ever leaving Iraq.
Have I had enough?? Oh, yes. Long ago. Has this illegal, immoral administration had enough? No, and they never will.
Christy #79 – It’s not on out here in the west, but Frontline always does a great show. Cannot wait!
Steve Duncan, this is NOT a good place to peddle “Don’t pity the soldier unless you’re lamenting them for their stupidity and blind allegiance to the criminal, genocidal class that rules our nation.”
ccmask – btw – check some of the higher channels in your guide (dish or cable) there’s a PBS2 on most systems, yeah, sometimes even when there isn’t a PBS 1
if no luck, go to Frontline website tomorrow and they should have it avail for viewing on line
The only problem with Anne’s response is thinking of Dems who you can picture having those words come from their mouths.
Murtha – not many others. Cut the crap is just not a part of their vocabulary. *s*
Everyone:
I’m watching the Frontline documentary with my ten year old (he volunteered). It’s great, Don’t miss it.
Frank Luntz was asked in a Frontline interview,
How important is keeping consistency of the message in political language?
Luntz responded
You say it again and again like at the 2004 GOP Conv.
That’s why you should never repeat their talking points – you are reinforcing their message.
What types of words should be used? Luntz went on
Use words that evoke emotion
That’s a great picture BobbyG @4
I hate the “cut & run” crap floated by the Chickenhawks. How ironic that the arrogant cowards who avoid fighting themselves but want other people’s loved ones to die to preserve their pride can actually say “cut and run” without choking.
Possible Dem responses:
Cut the Crap
Mission Accomplished – Bring them home
Draft the Chickenhawks
Support the Troops – Fire Their Boss
Steve @ 83
Soldiers didn’t volunteer for 14th century style tribal warfare. And a lot of our soldiers today didn’t volunteer for this at all — they are national guardsmen who volunteered for weekends and disaster work at home.
Mary #88 – You’re right. We still need a short sound bite to go along with Anne’s.
On NPR today, when asked if he regretted the split in the democratic caucus over when to redeploy troops from Iraq, Feingold responded:
“I would prefer that we were unified on this issue, but the worst case scenario is to be silent…(and that it is important) “that we show that we are engaged in trying to finish this, because the administration’s policy is open-ended.”
I love the way this man answers a question.
If the debate is on messaging, it’s GET REAL.
Cut & Run, Mr. President?
Get Real, you’re in over your head, Sir, and everyone but you and your flunkies knows it.
Why are we REALLY in Iraq?
I think Ms. Ann’s idea is fine, within the context of fdl, or other web sites. But as for media outlets, and Democratic politicians…I bet they back away due to the word “crap”.
Ghostman
cbl: you sound like me…I always try out my talking points at the grocery store. With the prices so high in the aisles, it is so easy to get started.
Called my cable company. It will be on Channel 3 at 10:00. Whew!
Jane: Sent you a couple of pictures. My love to your Mom…you are missed.
It’s not a slogan, but Josh Marshall sums up Bush’s “plan” quite nicely:
He’s gonna punt. (and run)
How about this:
“Cut and Run? Sure, if that’s what you want to call it. I call it cutting our losses and having your sons and daughters run to the nearest plane leaving Iraq. I owe it to the parents, spouses, families and friends of each American soldier in Iraq to get them OUT of Iraq as soon as possible. Let the U.N. handle the political process. We will spend the money – but not the soldiers’ lives.”
Not too short, but definitely the right message.
steve duncan at 83 — a lot of the kids who are in Iraq right now joined the military after 9/11 when we were going into Afghanistan. They felt they were doing the patriotic thing and fighting to protect their country. The military under Rumsfeld has now issued substantial “stop loss” orders, keeping people from leaving positions where they are low on manpower (which, considering how crappy recruiting has been going is a LOT of people). So, they joined to fight for their country, and they are stuck fighting a war that they never should have been asked to fight.
Beyond that, coming from WV as I do, and knowing the difficult economic situation a lot of poor kids face here, the military has always been the way out of poverty, out of the backwoods, and into a way to pay for an education and a life outside of welfare and crushing poverty. If you have never spent time with people who have no hope and no understanding of options outside of military, the mines, or welfare, then you have no idea how difficult it can be for these kids when they look at their lives and what to do.
When you add in how many immigrants are using the military as a means toward expedited citizenship in the US, you add another layer of incentive.
I try to look at every situation with some level of compassion and by trying to take a walk in the shoes of the person across the table. Try doing that with a lot of these kids — and most of them are kids or older adults who had just been in the reserves or national guard as a second job to help pay the bills (I know a LOT of local police officers who stayed in the reserves to avoid having to get food stamps to feed their families because their salaries were too low…and on and on.)
#88 Taylor,
Cut the talking points and run this like you own it.
Well, “Cut the GUFF” then!
the CIA folk just so casually admitting they know that Egypt tortures people and produces good intelligence so they send prisoners there …
MOTHERFUCKERS ! ! ! !
Sorry I am the King of Typos
Should be http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominioni…..ntury.html
instead of “crap”, maybe “bull”?
Ghostman
I think it’s false to say the Republicans don’t have a plan. They have a plan, and they are executing it.
They see our military as slave labor to build their New American Century. They see our treasury as financing for their New American Century. Their friends and associates — and often, family members (Carlyle Group?) — have their thumbs in the pie as planned.
And Georgie Porgie says what a good boy am I!
“He doesn’t have a plan for what to do in Iraq so he wants to keep troops there for the rest of his presidency. That’s his plan: stay long enough that it becomes someone else’s problem.”
Another stock market term, pump ‘n dump.
And a lot of our soldiers today didn’t volunteer for this at all %u2014 they are national guardsmen who volunteered for weekends and disaster work at home.
So many of our first responders are over there. We’re stripped bare of their services, which is a pity and puts us at great risk when we have any kind of disaster. They’re desperately needed here. Crazy.
Ha! On Larry King right now, after Jane Harman’s name it says (R).
Attorney Yoo looks so sweet and babyfaced to be such an apologist for evil and torture …
Cut the crap
Cut the talking points
Two good responses IMO that highlight the Propaganda message for what it is and also REQUIRE that they respond with a discussion, not a soundbite.
It also reinforces what EVERYONE already knows, they are liars with sounbites, there is no truth and no substance. Even people who support the “we can’t cut and run” concept know that it is being brokered by liars.
LindaR – You;re dead on.
We act like they’re incompetent because their goals are anathema to those of us with hearts.
Shays just defended Lieberman on Larry King.
“Attorney Yoo looks so sweet and babyfaced to be such an apologist for evil and torture %u2026 “
The Cheneys’ little boy probably did too at some point. How. Ev. Er.
Bustednuckles, as long as we start redeploying I don’t care who gets credit for what.
Whaa? This is our 21st century war. Soldiers sign up to fight the war their commanders and country send them to fight.
They volunteered, some out of unfortunate economic situations & some out of wanting to serve. They all trusted their commander in chief to lead them to defend and protect this country. He and others lied; it sucks to be them and us. We have to get out. They tout their all volunteer force that they USED and abused. Being lied to makes me angry; can you imagine how they will feel when they find out?
April 23, 1971 John Kerry talking about a different war in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee: “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?” These are tragically as true today in Iraq as they were then about Vietnam. They will remain so until we stop letting fools and schemers run our country and our foreign policy.
I was in the Army National Guard for 8 years (helicopter mechanic), and I know about having crappy equipment. I’m donating to Operation Helmet (http://www.operation-helmet.org/contribute.html). Our kids and neighbors and old friends are over there whether we like it or not, and I’d like to make them safer and more comfortable, while I’m waiting to vote these scumbags out of office.
Mark Galasco (sp?) Just said “Crap” on PBS!!
Crap!
Taylor,
It is a cleaned up version of racing lingo, Run it like ya brung it.
Yoo reminds me of someone I went to highschool with – he would have slit anyone’s throat for credit and standing and his suck up abilities were without compare.
His cousin, otoh, was a very nice girl. Much smarter and she didn’t need a map to find her morals.
Many people with poor prospects for gainful employment drift into a dangerous profession out of a sense of desperation and from not knowing where else to turn. They’re called prostitutes.
got it, bustednuckles! watch out for mary, though. ;-)
steve duncan: I agree with your basic premise but at the same time phrase it better. That was uncalled for.
With that comment,#122, I will defer to people way more qualified than I to respond.
In 2008, George Clearing Bush will once again hit the trifecta. He will cut and run and clear {brush}.
Never mind the NBA finals. Mary’s #121 was the slam dunk of the night.
And she couldn’t have posterized a “nicer” guy.
*ilson46201 #124 – I agree and also couldn’t disagree strongly enough with Steve Duncan. I think Christy @ 100 said enough, so I’ll just leave it alone.
Steve Duncan at 122 — May you never have to face the choice between your children starving or your principles.
In an exercise of GREAT restraint, the Ghostman will otherwise occupy himself with respect to the comments of Steve Duncan.
Ghostman
woohoo! Joe Wilson !!!
Taylor: The other day (yesterday) I left a link to http://www.magnuminmotion.com/
If you haven’t seen the interactive picture essay “BITTER FRUIT”, please check it out. A photographer attends funerals of soldiers killed in action…men he has never met.
I do not know how these families will cope. Every time they see our preznut cracking jokes in press conferences with his new buddy Mr. Snow, the pain they feel is multiplied over and over again. Especially the ghastly way they died…
One thing I can never understand though, is the way the stories are reported. It was reported that these soldiers were murdered, which they were, of course. But I cannot recall a single news report consisting of the words “…an Iraqi was murdered today…
Are soldiers killed in war or are soldiers murdered?
#122 – I would have bet money on them being called politicians. Pundits would have been my second guess.
“Some people” believe that hundreds of thousands of people from all walks of life and with all kinds of skill sets, education, beliefs and abilities, many of whom are willing to make tremendous sacrifices and many of whom are not even old enough to drink legally in Indiana can all be dumped in one category. Cut the crap.
Thank you, Taylor. And thank you especially, Christy, for your unerring gift for expressing the humanity_anger, grief, caring, hopefulness, optimism, determination_of this extraordinary family so eloquently in our moments of despondency. Maybe dawn is comming; it’s certainly dark enough now. Meanwhile, best thoughts for Jane and her mom.
PS. In the slogan department I’m partial to `Enough = how many?’and demanding an answer.
this PBS pgm has selected great photos ! very well done …
Steve Duncan, you’re entitled to your opinion, but you and I are as far apart as C and F Sharp here. Those people are putting their lives on the line for this country. The fact that so many selfless individuals are being led by such a selfish crew is a tragedy. Those troops deserve our support and respect.
Iraq is an exercise in genocide. It varies little in its results from what the military did to Native Americans while terrorizing the American West. Round up the suspicious and imprison, abuse and kill them. Leave the orphans and widows to fend for themselves. Despoil the enviroment. Pretend to allow them to self govern all the while robbing them of their assets. Make promises and break them. Patronize, belittle and disrespect them as an equal race. What to call those willingly engaging in such an exercise? We excoriate those in the past that wiped out Native American cultures. Do we really need to wait 125 years to acknowledge this too is a criminal campaign and those engaged in it at any level felons and murderers?
ccmask – What an amazing photo essay. I will never understand why everyone hasn’t raised holy hell over the closing of Dover. I heard Joe Biden screaming about it, because he wasn’t allowed to even attend a funeral.
If you don’t see the flag-draped coffin, did a soldier really fight and die?
This Frontline is phenom, west coasters. Watch it and you can throw away your tinfoil hat forever and just trust your gut from now on.
Great diary, and so true. Three years ago, when I was calling it an illegal invasion, most of the rank and file military were clueless. Mainly because they really thought this admin gave a damn and it is in their training not to question. When one of them had to apologize to me recently(hubby is military) for our argument, I simly said, “I told you so.” He was a bit miffed and my response to that was, “If you all had taken your heads out of your butts for five minutes and voted for a real war hero, thousands of people would still be alive today. You have to live with your decision to keep a war criminal in office.” And he said he couldn’t disagree with that.
And, still WTF are we supposed to do if our country is attacked? That is what the NATIONAL(that word should be a hint) Guard is for. Oh, and the military is running out of money to operate. Now they are cutting back on PCS(permanent change of station) in the AF, which is good for stability of the family, but not good if you are doing it because you don’t have money to cover the costs of moves. Ft Sam Houston has no money to pay their electrical bills. How can anyone say this big ship of fools cares about the military?
Jane, 100 comments late, but great to see you back with at least better news.
#122
My father volunteered for the Army prior to WW II. He fought at Normandy. His brothers joined the Navy. They were poor red-dirt, barefoot farmer’s sons. Some of my friends did not return from Nam alive. They were not prostitutes. They were men.
now they bring in Valerie Whats-her-name !
steve duncan, It may seem like a strange request but, If you have some spare time, spend some of it to go through past threads here. A lot of them.
wow, Scooter and Harriet are the same size!!!
FITZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
F I T Z ! ! !
btw, Jordan’s weekly labor post is up in a new thread — just FYI
I read it and loved it, Christy, but am watching Frontline and don’t want to muss up his thread!
the Preznit’s mouth in that film from Uganda was strangely twisted … very odd !
They cut up everything we believed in so they could run off with the cash.
angie–what do you think Cheney and Rumsfeld are going to buy themselves with all the money they’re stashing? What do you buy with a Gazillion bucks?
What do you buy with a Gazillion bucks?
A Brazillian moneyclip(s).
omigod … somebody compared the White House politics to “I, Claudius” !!!! So very true (I loved that series)
Gas?
Lawyers?
Forgiveness?
I doubt that the idea and supposed glory of democratizing the Middle East stays with a soldier as his bones are shattered, his skin pierced, and his hopes and aspirations quite literally bleed out of him. Having seen people die, I’ve seen mostly terror – that most overused, misused word of our era – and believe that what really crosses a mind dying violently and without justification is how much it hurts, how lonely it is, and the faces of loved ones left to mourn. And the questions: Was I good? Was I brave? Yes, and yes, and the tragedy expands.
Neither short nor pithy. Stay the course: Watch our children die.
I think the whole neocon attitude about this war can be summed up in the phrase “Who cares? They’re not our kids”. Too many syllables for a soundbite, I know.
I am sick of Republican slogans with no substance. Kerry is right, they have no plan; therefore, their commitment to “stay the course” simply means to continue having no plan and sink deeper into the quagmire.
I’m also sick of the Republicans deciding what our slogans should be. I haven’t heard a single Democrat or progressive say “cut and run”, but I’ve heard plenty of serious plans put forward by the likes of Murtha, Kerry, and others. Our slogan should be “plan and execute”.
Thanks, Christy, for the reminder of the PBS program tonight. Best of wishes, Jane, to you and your mom. You have many unseen friends pulling for her return to health.
http://www.slcblues.blogspot.com
I’m thinking of Pat Tillman tonite. It’s been over two years already that he died. What a waste. This Frontline program is really good.
This didn’t get posted earlier in the discussion because of a technical glitch. I’m going ahead and posting it now, in the EPU zone.
I agree with what Mary and Dover Bitch and others have said with regard to a commenter who is out of his universe here. In another thread, I defended the blogosphere against MSNBC’s vile allegation that people who have objected to torture by the U.S. are not objecting to the treatment of the two now-dead American soldiers who were apparently tortured. Now is not the time to be attacking our rank-and-file troops who are doing the dangerous and dirty job they were ordered to do. We do not need comments like those of Steve Duncan to tarnish our reputation and strain our credibility.
neurophius, I agree.
If you were in front of me, Steve Duncan, I’d punch you in the mouth.
They’re kids, for chrissakes. Lied to, and used. Not to be pitied, but to be respected and appreciated and fought for.
Rummy: Torturing them over here so they’ll torture us over there.
and so he can have some more lovely war.
neurophius @ 7:43 pm (#160) – My first reaction to something like MSNBC’s accusation is, why should I even have to say something? It’s obviously horrible, and no one with the least bit of humanity can help but be sickened by it.
As for steve duncan, he clearly hasn’t the faintest idea what it is to be in the military, and as Christy observed, probably hasn’t had to make a choice about his own survival or anyone else’s his whole life. He’s not worth getting riled up about.
Neurophius & Urban Pirate – #160 and 161 -
I second that.
Neurophius, tell me more about this reputation of yours I’ve sullied. Many thought those in the docket at Nuremburg got a raw deal for they were only doing what they were ordered to do. Those impaneled to judge them saw it otherwise. All that stands between our military and similar proceedings is the fact we have a sociopathic madman at the helm with access to a nuclear arsenal. Fat chance we’ll see another Nuremburg doling out the ropes for this crew or the fascist legions they command.
God bless you, Urban Pirate. ‘night all, I’ll see you tomorrow.
it is most interesting that Steve Duncan all of a sudden popped up in here today with inflammatory comments.
Actions do have consequences but the massive contemporary war propaganda machine seduces many, many folk. Some vote for Bush, others join the Army … how do we break the cycle?
Trollio.
Ghost there?
Don’t know if anyone’s still here – I got bumped off the computer so my daughter could take an online test to get her personal watercraft operator’s certificate (read: now she can get on the jet ski legally!)
Am glad you all thought my suggestion a good one – but I agree that “crap” probably would only work in certain venues (but can’t you hear Howard Dean saying it?).
How about, “Let’s cut to the chase and run this the way it should have been all along.”
And Jane – if you’re still here, am so glad to hear that your mother has improved. Will continue to keep her (and you) in my thoughts and prayers.
Late nightcap — Cut the bull [said earlier upthread] and run the Republican rascals out of office so we can bring our soldiers home alive.
After watching Frontline, which lived up to my expectations and then some since I started touting it last week [speaking of Luntz’s say it again and again and…fundamental advertising rule 101]…I can only add these two thoughts:
No wonder Chee-knee has no interest in running for prez in ‘08, he’s already in his second term. And…
IMPEACH PRESIDENT CHENEY.
PBS ran a great report on Cheney and the Dark Side tonight. How can anyone who watched that NOT demand the resignation or impeachment of this entire administration? Those two young soldiers were butchered as a direct result of the administration’s lies to get us into Iraq.
I don’t have THE answer but I do know where to find it.
This War Machine runs on three things in the short term – Money, Oil and Manpower.
WE have little control over Money and Oil in the short term but considerable influence is to be had over Manpower.
Stop targeting the geriatrics in Congress and target the teenagers in the projects, highschools and elsewhere. Target the recruiting offices and recruiters. Information packs for the kids. Help with finding decent jobs.
Support the dissenting troops in meaningful, specific, material ways – shelter, lawyers etc.
You have the netroots groups as a start for organising this. There must be a hundred tactics out there.
In short, you have to create options for people who are and will be sucked into the grinder of this War Machine. It’s the only way to bring it to a halt by denying it the manpower.
But first, commit to this war against war.
Then formulate a strategy, then tactics and run it like a military operation. It requires nothing less.
Set a target date to get the troops completely OUT of Iraq and Afghanistan (and then the rest of the world).
I suggest you have till November. Forget about the elections. If this criminal gang is still in control with the troops still in Iraq and Afghanistan come November, then the election will be of no consequence. If it is held, it will be stolen, again.
The only way to have a legitimate election is to get the troops out first and the only way to do that is to make it impossible for the warmongers to wage war by drying up the manpower.
Taylor: “Kerry’s got it right, ‘lie and die’ is how he described Republicans. If you’ve got a better one, let’s hear it.”
Sit ‘n’ Spin?
Leaving is losing should be seen in the proper context. That is, staying permanently was always plan one. A permanent fully equiped army on the ground in the the Gulf was always the main goal. Never again will the chance present itself. If we substantially pull out now there will never be another chance. So therefore there is no chance.
This goes far beyond any issue of the magical appearance of a functioning state in Iraq. The Iraqis actually mean nothing. It’s the oil and the ‘control’ of it that counts.
The world was good when Texans owned most of our oil. For 35 years they have lost that control. This is unacceptable.
On topic and a must read-
“Reclaim the Issues – “Occupation, Not War”
by Thom Hartmann.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0619-22.htm
You have a good point there, Griffon! Though I think we have to work on the elections too. We have to make others understand how not to sign up and make them feel good about it. Just let them say no and make sure we got their backs when the military industrial complex blows back at them. We have to offer an alternative in leadership and an alternative to making war. And any leader needs to learn you don’t put your precious volunteer army or a drafted army to war for lies.
It is not our oil. We have to pay for their oil. Not with the blood of soldiers or civilians, but with cash. We could offer those young people jobs by creating alternative energy sources.
I read and linked to that article by Thom Hartmann just yesterday! It is great!
When they stand up, we’ll stand down, they keep saying.
The question is: stand up to who?
The problem is: they are standing up. To us.
I know you all are optimistic about 53% – 41% but I find it horrible — when 2006 is half over!
47% are for no timetable????? Much less getting the hell out really quick.
America has to be the dumbest country on EARTH.
Jenny and Melissa: read and understood you. Thank you for your input for I appreciated it. Sucks, doesn’t it? People like you make it worthwhile to read here.
“Stand and bleed”!
http://apoeticjustice.blogspot…..lieve.html
http://apoeticjustice.blogspot…..-head.html
Steve #83, Urban Arrgg #95 , Christy #100
Urban – I can’t BELIEVE you called him “Sir” You possess comity I couldn’t muster under torture.
As far as the ‘volunteeer’ status of our troops, I think the most Pacifist among us would not hesitate to fight to protect our families from harm. A scene from “A Few Good Men” comes to mind. Demi Moore’s Lt.Comm. Jo Galloway says to Kevin Pollack’s Lt. Weinberg, “Why do you hate them so much?” He blusters, “They beat up on a weakling, that’s all they did. The rest of this is just smoke-filled coffee house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn’t like him, so they killed him. And why? Cause he couldn’t run very fast.” Then he asks, “Why do you like them so much?” She solemnly responds, “Because they stand on a wall and say,’Nothin’s gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch.’”
The politicians use that phrase as a punchline but many of us actually believe that we can provide a noble purpose by serving. Not to mention the opportunities the military can provide to a growing underclass or the sagging debt that can be avoided by exchanging time-in-service for outrageous student loan costs. My husband is exchanging service for medical school and went in before 9/11 and is committed until 2011. We discuss this often, he and I and have to trust and be committed to the path we have chosen. A key factor to keep in mind is regardless of political persuasion, the military we have truly provides the protection that we are at this moment, enjoying. I’m as Lefty as they come and I believe, in spite of the bullsh*t that we DO serve an important function and DESERVE the respect and reciprocal treatment that our protection provides.
Steve #83, Urban Arrgg #95 , Christy #100
Urban – I can’t BELIEVE you called him “Sir” You possess comity I couldn’t muster under torture.
As far as the ‘volunteeer’ status of our troops, I think the most Pacifist among us would not hesitate to fight to protect our families from harm. A scene from “A Few Good Men” comes to mind. Demi Moore’s Lt.Comm. Jo Galloway says to Kevin Pollack’s Lt. Weinberg, “Why do you hate them so much?” He blusters, “They beat up on a weakling, that’s all they did. The rest of this is just smoke-filled coffee house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn’t like him, so they killed him. And why? Cause he couldn’t run very fast.” Then he asks, “Why do you like them so much?” She solemnly responds, “Because they stand on a wall and say,’Nothin’s gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch.’”
The politicians use that phrase as a punchline but many of us actually believe that we can provide a noble purpose by serving. Not to mention the opportunities the military can provide to a growing underclass or the sagging debt that can be avoided by exchanging time-in-service for outrageous student loan costs. My husband is exchanging service for medical school and went in before 9/11 and is committed until 2011. We discuss this often, he and I and have to trust and be committed to the path we have chosen. A key factor to keep in mind is regardless of political persuasion, the military we have truly provides the protection that we are at this moment, enjoying. I’m as Lefty as they come and I believe, in spite of the bullsh*t that we DO serve an important function and DESERVE the respect and reciprocal treatment that our protection provides.
Linda R #106
You are soooo smart!! and I couldn’t agree more or say it better.
Cut and run is the only way out when you are losing otherwise you won’t be in the game…ask any trader or gambler.
Does Steve Duncan sound like “Slam Dunk” to anyone else?
DON’T END THE DAMN WAR!
Are ya with me???
Oh, wait that’s wrong, what I meant to write was: END THE DAMN WAR!
Sounds better, yeah?
“Kerry leaves Democrats fuming,” NYT reports, for taking the position held by 53% of the people, rather than that held by 41% of the people. That’s the kind of genius that wins so many elections.
“sit and watch”
it’s so brilliant i could cry…..
RE:the Cheney Frontline show
PBS Online usually has the whole Frontline show up on their site after a show airs.I’m just not sure how long it takes for them to put it up.
Frontline did a show about the meth epidemic awhile back that is a must see too(I saw that one online).We could end that problem,fairly simply,but Big Pharma would lose money.But that’s way OT.
Counter the Republican “Cut and run” with:
No more “LIE AND DIE”!!
Seems the Preznit got his “cheney” caught in the door on the way in! Ouch…no wonder…(he don’t wanna lose his “cheney”)…
Damn criminals!
All that goes through my head over and over is “sit and spin” – maybe its my misspent youth watching all those ads on 70s TV…
Our Fearless Leader’s favorite toy
Remember the “he can run, but he can’t hide” line used repeatedly by the Republican crime family during the 2004 campaign?
Perhaps we can turn it back on them. They can run, but they can’t hide from the utter disaster they have created in Iraq.
How about “slog and lose”?